Messages in AquaticLife group.

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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49872	From: Ray	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: HAPPY NEW YEAR !
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49873	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49874	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49875	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49876	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [AquaticLife] Anyone else have fish get sick after adding
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49877	From: Melani	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49878	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49879	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49880	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49881	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49882	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Breeding assassin snails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49883	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49884	From: William M	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding assassin snails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49885	From: haecklers	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49886	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49887	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49888	From: TW A	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49889	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49890	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49891	From: haecklers	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49892	From: TW A	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49893	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49894	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49895	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49896	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49897	From: DenaB	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Fish Lice on my snail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49898	From: Mark	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49899	From: lara7712	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49900	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice on my snail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49901	From: TW A	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49902	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49903	From: Tinus and Lara van der Merwe	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49904	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49905	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49906	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49907	From: haecklers	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49908	From: k chen	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49909	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49910	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49911	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49912	From: allis64	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49913	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49914	From: TW A	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49915	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Marineland LED Bubble Wands
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49916	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49917	From: haecklers	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49918	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49919	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49920	From: J M	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: CAFE Winter Auction Champaign IL
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49921	From: Tinus and Lara van der Merwe	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49922	From: haecklers	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49923	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49924	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49925	From: Ray	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49926	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49927	From: haecklers	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49928	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49929	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Planted Tanks Exhibited in Art Gallery
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49930	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49931	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49932	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49933	From: allis64	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49934	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49935	From: haecklers	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49936	From: haecklers	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49937	From: upmaid15	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49938	From: harry perry	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49939	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49940	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49941	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49942	From: allis64	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49943	From: horserider283	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: top dwelling fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49944	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49945	From: William M	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49946	From: Noura	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49947	From: haecklers	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49948	From: haecklers	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49949	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49950	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49951	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49952	From: haecklers	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49953	From: Noura	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49954	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49955	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49956	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49957	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49958	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49959	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49960	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49961	From: k chen	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49962	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49963	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49964	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49965	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49966	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49967	From: haecklers	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49968	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49969	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49970	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49971	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49972	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49973	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49974	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49975	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49976	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49977	From: Noura	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49978	From: judith	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49979	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49980	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49981	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49982	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49983	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49984	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49985	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49986	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49987	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49988	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49989	From: k chen	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49990	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49991	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49992	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: male krib not in the mood?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49993	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49994	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49995	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49996	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49997	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49998	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49999	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50000	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50001	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50002	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50003	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50004	From: joe t	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50005	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50006	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50007	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50008	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50009	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50010	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50011	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50012	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50013	From: Noura	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50014	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50015	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Badis juergenschmidti - a new species of the Indo-burmese fish famil
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50016	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: pelican gulper eel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50017	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50018	From: Melani	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50019	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50020	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50021	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50022	From: betti@optonline.net	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50023	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50024	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50025	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50026	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50027	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50028	From: DeenerZ	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50029	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50030	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50031	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50032	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50033	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50034	From: LindaS	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Gian - Betta Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50035	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50036	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50037	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50038	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50039	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50040	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50041	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50042	From: PaulB	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: wanted - a new home for my fish. I need a 55 gallon tank and stand (
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50043	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50044	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50045	From: haecklers	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50046	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50047	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Question about Dwarf Anubias
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50048	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50049	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50050	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50051	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50052	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50053	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50054	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50055	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50056	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50057	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50058	From: Ray	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50059	From: Ray	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50060	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Top Five Aquariums in the US
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50061	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50062	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50063	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50064	From: Ray	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50065	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Cookie cutter shark
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50066	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: OT: Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50067	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50068	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50069	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50070	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50071	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50072	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: OT: Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50073	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: DIY aquarium links Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50074	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50075	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50076	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50077	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: DIY aquarium links Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50078	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50079	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50080	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50081	From: Dani	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50082	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50083	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50084	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50085	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50086	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50087	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50088	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50089	From: harry perry	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50090	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50091	From: R. Scaife	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Distilled H2O & Bettas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50092	From: harry perry	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas/What ????
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50093	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50094	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50095	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50096	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50097	From: r22scaife@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas/What ????
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50098	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50099	From: r22scaife@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50100	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50101	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50102	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50103	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50104	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: info on peacock gobies wanted please!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50105	From: xleche_flanx	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50106	From: Dani	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50107	From: LindaS	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50108	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50109	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: info on peacock gobies wanted please!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50110	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50111	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50112	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50113	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50114	From: haecklers	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50115	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50116	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50117	From: Reza Zulkarnain™	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50118	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50119	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50120	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50121	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50122	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: info on peacock gobies wanted please!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50123	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50124	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50125	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50126	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50127	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50128	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50129	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50130	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50131	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50132	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50133	From: duffy928542002	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50134	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50135	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50136	From: jan1213@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50137	From: haecklers	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50138	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50139	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50140	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50141	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50142	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50143	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50144	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50145	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50146	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50147	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50148	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50149	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50150	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50151	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50152	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50153	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50154	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50155	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50156	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50157	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50158	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50159	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50160	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50161	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50162	From: DebR	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50163	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50164	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50165	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50166	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50167	From: Scott Westhoff	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hot Glue
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50168	From: Melani	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50169	From: Melani	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50170	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50171	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50172	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50173	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50174	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50175	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50176	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50177	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50178	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50179	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50180	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50181	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50182	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50183	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50184	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50185	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50186	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50187	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50188	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50189	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50190	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50191	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50192	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50193	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50194	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50195	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Tap Water additives
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50196	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails/live foods
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50197	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50198	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50199	From: Ray	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50200	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50201	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Renamed Temperature
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50202	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50203	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50204	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: planted aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50205	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: planted aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50206	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50207	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50208	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50209	From: judith white	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: planted aquariums
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50210	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: ram cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50211	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: ram cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50212	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50213	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50214	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50215	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50216	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50217	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50218	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50219	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50220	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50221	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50222	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50223	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50224	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: betta ry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50225	From: pam andress	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50226	From: haecklers	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta ry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50227	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50228	From: Ray	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50229	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50230	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50231	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50232	From: annieg	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: New to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50233	From: pam andress	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50234	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50235	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50236	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50237	From: Al Keep	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50238	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50239	From: William M	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50240	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50241	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50242	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50243	From: Al Keep	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50244	From: annieg	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50245	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50246	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50247	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50248	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50249	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50250	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50251	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50252	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50253	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50254	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50255	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50256	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50257	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50258	From: Sam	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50259	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50260	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50261	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50262	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50263	From: Sam	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50264	From: haecklers	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50265	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50266	From: annieg	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50267	From: pam andress	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50268	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50269	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50270	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50271	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50272	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50273	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50274	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50275	From: haecklers	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50276	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50277	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50278	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50279	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50280	From: annieg	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50281	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50282	From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: New poll for AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50283	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Hey, big spender!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50284	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50285	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50286	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50287	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50288	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50289	From: Sam	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50290	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Wandering off on a tangent...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50291	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50292	From: Ray	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50293	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50294	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50295	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50296	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50297	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50298	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50299	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50300	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50301	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50302	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50303	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50304	From: mothermastiff	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50305	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50306	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50307	From: Ray	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50308	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Happy Birthday!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50309	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50310	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Flourish excel and shrimp
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50311	From: Anand Rajamani	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50312	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50313	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Flourish excel and shrimp
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50314	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50315	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50316	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50317	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50318	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50319	From: mothermastiff	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50320	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50321	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50322	From: judith	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Filtration, substrate and vitamins
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50323	From: judith	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: pictures
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50324	From: Ray	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50325	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50326	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50327	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50328	From: Danielle Brown	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50329	From: Ray	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50330	From: anand.rajamani	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50331	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50332	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50333	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50334	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50335	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50336	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50337	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50338	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50339	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filtration, substrate and vitamins
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50340	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50341	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50342	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Considering a new filter and want to hear thoughts about it
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50343	From: pabickwermert	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Can one beta live with other types of fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50344	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50345	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filtration, substrate and vitamins
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50346	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50347	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Can one beta live with other types of fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50348	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50349	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50350	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50351	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50352	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Can one beta live with other types of fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50353	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50354	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50355	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50356	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50357	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50358	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50359	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Was cory fry - now Bettas Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50360	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50361	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50362	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50363	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50364	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50365	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50366	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50367	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50368	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50369	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50370	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50371	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50372	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50373	From: Spockster59@comcast.net	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50374	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50375	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50376	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50377	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50378	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50379	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50380	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50381	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50382	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50383	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50384	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50385	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50386	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50387	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50388	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50389	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50390	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50391	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50392	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50393	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50394	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50395	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50396	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50397	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50398	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50399	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50400	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50401	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50402	From: Ray	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50403	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50404	From: Ray	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50405	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50406	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50407	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50408	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish tub
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50409	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50410	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50411	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50412	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50413	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50414	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50415	From: Teegra	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50416	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50417	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50418	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50419	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50420	From: rachell7	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50421	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50422	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50423	From: haecklers	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50424	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50425	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50426	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50433	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50434	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Apologies, was; Magazines
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50435	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50436	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50437	From: DeenerZ	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50438	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Heaters and live plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50439	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Neon tetras safe with small freshwater shrimp?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50440	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Heaters and live plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50441	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Neon tetras safe with small freshwater shrimp?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50442	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50443	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50444	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Heaters and live plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50445	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50446	From: Teegra	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50447	From: Ray	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50448	From: rachell7	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50449	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50450	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50451	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50452	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50453	From: Al Keep	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: its not lookin good...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50454	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50455	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50456	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50457	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50458	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50459	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50460	From: Al Keep	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50461	From: pfjane418	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Transferring goldfish to pond good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50462	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Transferring goldfish to pond good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50463	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50464	From: Teegra	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50465	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50466	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50467	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Transferring goldfish to pond good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50468	From: greychildren	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Haplochromis limax
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50469	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50470	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50471	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50472	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50473	From: jaiko	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50474	From: Lisa	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: I lost one good looking fish Monday...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50475	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: I lost one good looking fish Monday...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50476	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50477	From: Lisa	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: I lost one good looking fish Monday...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50478	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50479	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50480	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Hydra update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50481	From: Teegra	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50482	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50483	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50484	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50485	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50486	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50487	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50488	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Brown Blood Syndrome, was; New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50489	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Brown Blood Syndrome, was; New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50491	From: Ray	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: DON'T OPEN -- Nature Photography: Five Tips, etc., etc.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50492	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra update - Question about fish lice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50493	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50494	From: Ray	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50495	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Fish Lice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50496	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50497	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50498	From: haecklers	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Blue-green algae and hair algae
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50499	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Blue-green algae and hair algae
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50500	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50501	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: was: Fish Lice Now: ACTUALLY planaria
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50502	From: Ray	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50503	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of Last Week
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50504	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50505	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Two-headed shark embryos discovered
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50506	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Inspirational aquariums: Euro modernism!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50507	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: How to set up a planted tropical community aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50508	From: kuradi8	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50509	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Blue-green algae and hair algae
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50510	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50511	From: Eric Roberts	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50512	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50513	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks/Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50514	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50515	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks/Ray
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50516	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50517	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/14/2011
Subject: male guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50518	From: Melani	Date: 2/14/2011
Subject: Re: male guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50519	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Turtle training
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50520	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50521	From: vickie	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50522	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: male guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50523	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Low ph levels
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50524	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Low ph levels
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50525	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/16/2011
Subject: Re: Low ph levels
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50526	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/16/2011
Subject: Betta with a small lump on her face
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50527	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50528	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50529	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50530	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50531	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50532	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Top fin heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50533	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50534	From: Teegra	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50535	From: Melani	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: fish eyes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50536	From: Ray	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50537	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50538	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Teenage Goldfish Killer "Didn't want to leave witnesses"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50539	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Teenage Goldfish Killer "Didn't want to leave witnesses"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50540	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50541	From: Ray	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50542	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: superworm myth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50543	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: newborn platy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50544	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50545	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50546	From: haecklers	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50547	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50548	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Book for beginners
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50549	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: FW: PVAS Chili Cookoff at Next Meeting!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50550	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50551	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Genuine Flying Fish - Batteries Required
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50552	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Pinecone Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50553	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Book for beginners
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50554	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Aquarium Fire
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50555	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50556	From: haecklers	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Fire
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50557	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50558	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50559	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50560	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50561	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50562	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50563	From: Melani	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50564	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: spawning bushynose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50565	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50566	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50567	From: reneap7040	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Top Fin heater.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50568	From: haecklers	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50569	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50570	From: Lisa	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50571	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50572	From: k chen	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50573	From: Bren Linny	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50574	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50575	From: rachell7	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50576	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50577	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50578	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50579	From: haecklers	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50580	From: Lisa Lawless	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: re; HELP! my goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50581	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50582	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50583	From: Ray	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50584	From: Melani	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50585	From: Nicole	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Off Topic: Please Help w/ My Project (Only Takes Minutes)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50586	From: Lisa	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50587	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50588	From: k chen	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50589	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50590	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50591	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50592	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50593	From: Melani	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50594	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50595	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50596	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50598	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50599	From: haecklers	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50600	From: safirezprincess	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50601	From: haecklers	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50602	From: Melani	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50603	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50604	From: harry perry	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!/Try this
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50605	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50606	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50607	From: mirenlopez68	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50608	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50609	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50610	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50611	From: Miren	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50612	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50613	From: Ray	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50614	From: harry perry	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!/First few weeks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50615	From: haecklers	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50616	From: haecklers	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50617	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50618	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Is This the Most Expensive Aquarium in the World?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50619	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: How Long Fish Will My Live?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50620	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Slender snipe eel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50621	From: Ray	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50622	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50624	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50625	From: Miren	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50626	From: kuradi8	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50627	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Hello fishlovers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50628	From: horserider283	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50629	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50630	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50631	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50632	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50633	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50634	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50635	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50636	From: Ray	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50637	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50638	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50639	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: A Fish Tale
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50640	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: A Fish Tale
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50641	From: Ray	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50642	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50643	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50644	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50645	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50646	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50647	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50648	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50649	From: Christa Williams	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50650	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: my royal blue betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50651	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50652	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50654	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50655	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50657	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50658	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: MyAquariumBowl
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50659	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50660	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50664	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Betta Poll
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50665	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50666	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50667	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50669	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50670	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50671	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50672	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50673	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50674	From: Ray	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: backyard breeders (ot)/baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50675	From: Ray	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50676	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50677	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction - Golden Clams
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50678	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50679	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50680	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction - Golden Clams
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50681	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50682	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50683	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50684	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50685	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50686	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50687	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50688	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50689	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50690	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50691	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50692	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50693	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50694	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50695	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50696	From: Jessica	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50697	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50698	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50699	From: haecklers	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50700	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/4/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50701	From: haecklers	Date: 3/4/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50702	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: New Loricariids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50703	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Bookmark This Page
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50704	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: The Mississippi paddlefish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50705	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Re: Bookmark This Page
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50706	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50707	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Your Tax Dollars At Work
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50708	From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: New file uploaded to AquaticLife
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50709	From: dmctjc	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Surprise babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50710	From: haecklers	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50711	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50712	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50713	From: Tori	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50714	From: haecklers	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50715	From: Jessica	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50716	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50717	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50718	From: Donna Camp	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50719	From: LindaS	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50720	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50721	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50722	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50723	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50724	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50725	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Water -- WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50726	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50727	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50728	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50729	From: pam andress	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50730	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50731	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50732	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50733	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50734	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: jellyfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50735	From: haecklers	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50736	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50737	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50738	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Site launch
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50739	From: bill 1433	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Site launch
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50740	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50741	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: thoughts
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50742	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50743	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50744	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50745	From: LindaS	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50746	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: new addition , new fishes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50747	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50748	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Link to a newly-started fledgling Yahoo fish group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50749	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: fiddler crab help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50750	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50751	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50752	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50753	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50754	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50755	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50756	From: haecklers	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: new addition , new fishes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50757	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50758	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50759	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: FL: Dolphins Save Stranded Dog
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50760	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: flying gurnard
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50761	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50762	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50763	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50764	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50765	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Adding a Cat, was: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50766	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50767	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50768	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50769	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Water changes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50770	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: Water changes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50771	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50772	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: new addition , new fishes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50773	From: joe t	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50774	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: cycling tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50775	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50776	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50777	From: haecklers	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50778	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50779	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50780	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50781	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: crabs died
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50782	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50783	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50784	From: LindaS	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50785	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50786	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50787	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50788	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50789	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50790	From: haecklers	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: crabs died
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50791	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50792	From: haecklers	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50793	From: LindaS	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: website is not available
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50794	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50795	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: website is not available
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50796	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50797	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: website is not available
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50798	From: simone	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Newt Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50799	From: Ray	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50800	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Newt Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50801	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Newt Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50802	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50803	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: crabs died
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50804	From: Ray	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50805	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50806	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50807	From: Ray	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50808	From: haecklers	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50809	From: Ray	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50810	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50811	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50812	From: haecklers	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50813	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50814	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50815	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50816	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50817	From: haecklers	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50818	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50819	From: reneap7040	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50820	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50821	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50822	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50823	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50824	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50825	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50826	From: haecklers	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50827	From: Ray	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50828	From: Ray	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50829	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50830	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50831	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50832	From: haecklers	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50833	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Bill on hoarding animals
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50834	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50835	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50836	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50837	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/19/2011
Subject: The 10 biggest cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50838	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/20/2011
Subject: The A-Z of Fish Health, Part 3: M-R
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50839	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/20/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: The Mega-mouth shark
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50840	From: reneap7040	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50841	From: Chris Owens-Polski	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50842	From: harry perry	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50843	From: haecklers	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50844	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50845	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50846	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50847	From: Ray	Date: 3/22/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50848	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/22/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50849	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50850	From: William M	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50851	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50852	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50853	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50854	From: haecklers	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50855	From: Trissa	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: iNTRO :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50856	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: iNTRO :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50857	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 3/25/2011
Subject: female dario dario?? AKA Scarlet Badis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50858	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/25/2011
Subject: Re: female dario dario?? AKA Scarlet Badis
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50859	From: Andy Mills	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50860	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50861	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50862	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50863	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/27/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sea moth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50864	From: geckogully	Date: 3/27/2011
Subject: Pedigrees?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50865	From: Ray	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pedigrees?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50866	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50867	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: FW: PVAS BIG SPRING AUCTION THIS SATURDAY!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50868	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50869	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50870	From: William M	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50871	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50872	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50873	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50874	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50875	From: haecklers	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Pearl gourami fry question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50876	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50877	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" In Committee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50878	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: family.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50879	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50880	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50881	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50882	From: Neener	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50883	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50884	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50885	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Who knew? Dolphins don't like rain
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50886	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Living Near Hyerabad, India?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50887	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Swallower
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50888	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: The 10 Worst Community Fish of All Time
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50889	From: suemfrancis	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50890	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50891	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50892	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50893	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Community Fish of All Time
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50894	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50895	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50896	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50897	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50898	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50899	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50900	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50901	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50902	From: destructokitty	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50903	From: suemfrancis	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50904	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50905	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50906	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50907	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50908	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50909	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50910	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50911	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50912	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50913	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50914	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50915	From: William M	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50916	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50917	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50918	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50919	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50920	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50921	From: cobra427lady	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50922	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50923	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50924	From: haecklers	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50925	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50926	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50927	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Live fish keychains
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50928	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Re: Live fish keychains
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50929	From: Deb	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Marineland heaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50930	From: Jessica	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Tank Mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50931	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50932	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Mates
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50933	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50934	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50935	From: alijo79	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50936	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50937	From: Ray	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50938	From: alijo79	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Live fish keychains
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50939	From: Bill	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50940	From: Ray	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50941	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50942	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50943	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50944	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50945	From: Bill	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50946	From: wendie o	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50947	From: Michelle Wilson	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50948	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50949	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50950	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50951	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50952	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50953	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50954	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50955	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50956	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50957	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50958	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50959	From: Wendie	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50960	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50961	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50962	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50963	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50964	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50965	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50966	From: Wendie	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50967	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50968	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50969	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50970	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50971	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50972	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50973	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50974	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Q&ARe: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50975	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50976	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50977	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50978	From: Bill	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50979	From: alijo79	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50980	From: alijo79	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50981	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50982	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50983	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50984	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50985	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50986	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50987	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50988	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50989	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50990	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50991	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50992	From: Bill	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50993	From: Bill	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50994	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50995	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Suppli
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50996	From: Ray	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50997	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50998	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50999	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: all fried up.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51000	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51001	From: haecklers	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Suppli
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51002	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Su
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51003	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51004	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: all fried up.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51005	From: Ray	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51006	From: Ray	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of the Week: Swallower
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51007	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: all fried up.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51008	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51009	From: joe t	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51010	From: Dora Smith	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51011	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51012	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Frilled shark
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51013	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51014	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51015	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51016	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51017	From: Koi Naturals Food	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51018	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51019	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51020	From: William M	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51021	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/12/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51022	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/12/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51023	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/13/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51024	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/13/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51025	From: Karlene T	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51026	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51027	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51028	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51029	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51030	From: Eben von Bargen	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51031	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51032	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Capturing Nature
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51033	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51034	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51035	From: Jessica	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Black kuhli loaches
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51036	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51037	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51038	From: haecklers	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51039	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51040	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51041	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51042	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51043	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51044	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: New member from Pakistan
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51045	From: mr.cruzarmand	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Opinion(Help my friend decided)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51046	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51047	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51048	From: haecklers	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51049	From: haecklers	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51050	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51051	From: Karlene	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51052	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Karlene You Know My Secrets
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51053	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: JAPAN: The World's Luckiest Goldfish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51054	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Goblin Shark
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51055	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: UT: Caught on Camera: Man Steals $4000 Worth of Corals
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51056	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: UT: Caught on Camera: Man Steals $4000 Worth of Corals
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51057	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: The Fish That Lived in a Shoe
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51058	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51059	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51060	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51061	From: Melinda	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51062	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51063	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51064	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51065	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51066	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Whatever happened to paradise gouramis?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51067	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to paradise gouramis?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51068	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51069	From: Karlene	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51070	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: I'm New
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51071	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: JAPAN: The World's Luckiest Goldfish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51072	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51073	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51074	From: jmdarlack@yahoo.com	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Nooooooooo!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51075	From: haecklers	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51076	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Mars Fishcare Catalogue
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51077	From: Melinda	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51078	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51079	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51080	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51081	From: Mark	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Floating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51082	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51083	From: Baby P m	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51084	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51085	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51086	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51087	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51088	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51089	From: joe t	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51090	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51091	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51092	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51093	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51094	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51095	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51096	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51097	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51098	From: haecklers	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51099	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51100	From: haecklers	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51101	From: Karlene	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51102	From: Mark	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51103	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51104	From: joe t	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51105	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51106	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51107	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51108	From: Mark Hough	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51109	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51110	From: haecklers	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Columnaris question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51111	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51112	From: haecklers	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Dwarf pufferfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51113	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51114	From: Bill	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51115	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51116	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51117	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51118	From: haecklers	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51119	From: Bill	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51120	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf pufferfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51121	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51122	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51123	From: Karlene	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51124	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: United Pet Group recalls 1.2M aquarium heaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51125	From: Bill	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51126	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51127	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51128	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51129	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51130	From: Karlene	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51131	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: mystery sponge
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51132	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51133	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Update: hydra in the fry tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51134	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51135	From: William M	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51136	From: Bill	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51137	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51138	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51139	From: Jessica	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51140	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51141	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51142	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51143	From: Bill	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51144	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Update: hydra in the fry tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51145	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51146	From: kuradi8	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51147	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51148	From: Ray	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51149	From: kuradi8	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51150	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51151	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51152	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51153	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51154	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51155	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51156	From: Lloyd	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51157	From: Lloyd	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: new here my tank is doing fantastic now
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51158	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51159	From: Deb	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Recall from Petsmart on Stealthheaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51160	From: Deb	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Heater recall
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51161	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/26/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51162	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51163	From: Ray	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51164	From: Chloe Hopper	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51165	From: haecklers	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51166	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Gas Exchange [was: Comet Finnage Problem]
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51167	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51168	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51169	From: William M	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51170	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51171	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Gas Exchange [was: Comet Finnage Problem]
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51172	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51173	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51174	From: haecklers	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51175	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51176	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51177	From: joe t	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51178	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Have You Heard of This Happening
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51179	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51180	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51181	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51182	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51183	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51184	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51185	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51186	From: joe t	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51187	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51188	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51189	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51190	From: Karlene	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51191	From: Karlene	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51192	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51193	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51194	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51195	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51196	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51197	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51198	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51199	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51200	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51201	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51202	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51203	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51204	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51205	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51206	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51207	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51208	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51209	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51210	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51211	From: Karlene	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51212	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51213	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51214	From: Bill	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51215	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51216	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: The 10 most under-rated community fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51217	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Barreleye
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51218	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51219	From: Bill	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51220	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51221	From: Chloe Hopper	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51222	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51223	From: haecklers	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51224	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51225	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51226	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51227	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51228	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51229	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51230	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51231	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51232	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51233	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51234	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51235	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51236	From: gelynch52ph	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: My first post is a question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51237	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51238	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51239	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51240	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51241	From: Bill	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51242	From: Bill	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51243	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51244	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51245	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51246	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51247	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51248	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51249	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51250	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51251	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51252	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51253	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T; was, New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51254	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T; was, New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51255	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51256	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51257	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51258	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51259	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51260	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51261	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51262	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51263	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51264	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51265	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51266	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51267	From: Karlene	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51268	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Refresher on ottos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51269	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51270	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51271	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51272	From: Alisa	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Oops
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51273	From: haecklers	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: Refresher on ottos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51274	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: Oops
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51275	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51276	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51277	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51278	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51279	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51280	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51281	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51282	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51283	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51284	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51285	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51286	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51287	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: discus help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51288	From: chloelikeohman@yahoo.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51289	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: discus help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51290	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51291	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: discus help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51292	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51293	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51294	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51295	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51296	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51297	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51298	From: joe t	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51299	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51300	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51301	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51302	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51303	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51304	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51305	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51306	From: Bill	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51307	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51308	From: haecklers	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51309	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51310	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51311	From: caroline cormier	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51312	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/5/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51313	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51314	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51315	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Coelacanth
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51316	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51317	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51318	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51319	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51320	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51321	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Ceiling House Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51322	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51323	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51324	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51325	From: Karlene	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Another Question!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51326	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51327	From: Bill	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51328	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51329	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51330	From: Bill	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51331	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51332	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51333	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51334	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51335	From: jaiko	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51336	From: Ray	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51337	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51338	From: bill 1433	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51339	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51340	From: jaiko	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51341	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51342	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51343	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51344	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51345	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51346	From: Bill	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51347	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51348	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51349	From: William M	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51350	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51351	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51352	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51353	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51354	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51355	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51356	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51357	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51358	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51359	From: Bill	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51360	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51361	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51362	From: Mï®zå Úmêr	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Lazy fishes need some help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51363	From: Al Keep	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51364	From: haecklers	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: vacation - 1 month old fry??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51365	From: William M	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51366	From: haecklers	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51367	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51368	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51369	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51370	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/11/2011
Subject: Molly and platties
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51371	From: haecklers	Date: 5/11/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51372	From: caroline cormier	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: watch until the end .....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51373	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Re: watch until the end .....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51374	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Re: watch until the end .....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51375	From: chloelikeohman@yahoo.com	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51376	From: haecklers	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51377	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51378	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51379	From: Andy Mills	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51380	From: john Lewis	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51381	From: Deb	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: rummy nose and cardinals
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51382	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51383	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51384	From: Thorn	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51385	From: haecklers	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51386	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51387	From: Etac Clubs	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Hi all. Anybody from East Tennessee?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51388	From: haecklers	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51389	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51390	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51391	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51392	From: haecklers	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51393	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51394	From: alankya	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51395	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51396	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51397	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51398	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: FW: NAS Species Alert - Ctenopharyngodon idella (MN)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51399	From: Kate Conrow	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: 7
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51400	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51401	From: haecklers	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51402	From: alankya	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51403	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51404	From: Rowena Montinola	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: jaguar eggs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51405	From: Rowena Montinola	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: arapaima
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51406	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51407	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51408	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51409	From: joe t	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: 7
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51410	From: haecklers	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51411	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51412	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Plough-nosed chimaera
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51413	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51414	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: This Week's Weird Fish of the Week: Grunt sculpin
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51415	From: haecklers	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51416	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51417	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51418	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51419	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51420	From: Karlene	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Yet Another Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51421	From: Bill	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51422	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51423	From: O	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: perawatan ikan hias air tawar dan laut
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51424	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51425	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51426	From: William M	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51427	From: TrishS	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Need Some Help Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51428	From: haecklers	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51429	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51430	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Need Some Help Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51431	From: Trish Souza	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Need Some Help Please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51432	From: Lisa	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Unexplained death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51433	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51434	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51435	From: haecklers	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51436	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51437	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51438	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Compatibility between fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51439	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51440	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51441	From: haecklers	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51442	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51443	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51444	From: haecklers	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51445	From: haecklers	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51446	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51447	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51448	From: Sivakumar Viswanathan	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51449	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51450	From: Frank Woolf	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51451	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51452	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51453	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51454	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51455	From: Frank Woolf	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51456	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51457	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51458	From: Sabrina	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51459	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51460	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51461	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51462	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51463	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/29/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51464	From: haecklers	Date: 5/30/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51465	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/30/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51466	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Sick red-eye tetra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51467	From: Ron Obvious	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: African cichlid needs new home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51468	From: haecklers	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Re: African cichlid needs new home
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51469	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Re: Sick red-eye tetra
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51470	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51471	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51472	From: Ken Roy	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51473	From: haecklers	Date: 6/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51474	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51475	From: ahenney	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: dead fish ID, please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51476	From: Wendie	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51477	From: Wendie	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51478	From: Joseph F	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Endlers Livebearer available
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51479	From: haecklers	Date: 6/5/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51480	From: Wendie	Date: 6/5/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51481	From: haecklers	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51482	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Plant Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51483	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: HOB/Plant Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51484	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Male to Female Ratio
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51485	From: Melani	Date: 6/8/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51486	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/8/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51487	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: male to male ratio
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51488	From: ScottW	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51489	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51490	From: haecklers	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51491	From: moya a	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51492	From: Bill	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51493	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51494	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51495	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51496	From: Lisa	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: All are going
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51497	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51498	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51499	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51500	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51501	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51502	From: Scott Westhoff	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51503	From: Bill	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51504	From: haecklers	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51505	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51506	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51507	From: Bill	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51508	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51509	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51510	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51511	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51512	From: ScottW	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51513	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51514	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51515	From: haecklers	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51516	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51517	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51518	From: haecklers	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51519	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51520	From: William M	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51521	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51522	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51523	From: john Lewis	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51524	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51525	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51526	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51527	From: joe t	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51528	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51529	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51530	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51531	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51532	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51533	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51534	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51535	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51536	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51537	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51538	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51539	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51540	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51541	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51542	From: Lisa	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: I did this to refresh my interest in the hobby
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51543	From: parkpac@earthlink.net	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51544	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51545	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51546	From: Bill	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51547	From: Bill	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51548	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51549	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51550	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: I did this to refresh my interest in the hobby
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51551	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51552	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51553	From: Cham Fan	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes - Tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51554	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: What are tricolor tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51555	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51556	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51557	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51558	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51559	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51560	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51561	From: Bill	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51562	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51563	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51564	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51565	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51566	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51567	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51568	From: parkpac@earthlink.net	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51569	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51570	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51571	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51572	From: Ray	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51573	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Mirror backing for tanks?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51574	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51575	From: Rei	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51576	From: Chloe	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51577	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51578	From: haecklers	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51579	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51580	From: Karlene	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51581	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51582	From: Bill	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51583	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51584	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51585	From: Donita	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51586	From: haecklers	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51587	From: Bill	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51588	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51589	From: Donita	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51590	From: Bill	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51591	From: Rei	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51592	From: haecklers	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51593	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51594	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51595	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: API CO2 Booster
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51596	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51597	From: Bill	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51598	From: Ray	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51599	From: oranjedee	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: intro & oscars
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51600	From: Bill	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51601	From: Ray	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51602	From: Bill	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51603	From: ScottW	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51604	From: ScottW	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51605	From: Trycya	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51606	From: Trycya	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: yo-yo loach help pt. 2
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51607	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51608	From: Ray	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51609	From: Ray	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51610	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51611	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51612	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51613	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51614	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51615	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51616	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51617	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51618	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51619	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic (see web pages please)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51620	From: haecklers	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Free Stuff!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51621	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51622	From: Bill	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51623	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51624	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51625	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51626	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51627	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51628	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51629	From: john Lewis	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51630	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51631	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51632	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/28/2011
Subject: CO2 Booster
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51633	From: ScottW	Date: 6/28/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51634	From: sevenspringss	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: API CO2 Booster
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51635	From: Bill	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: CO2 Booster
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51636	From: Trycya	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51637	From: Trycya	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51638	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51639	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51640	From: Trycya	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51641	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51642	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51643	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51644	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51645	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51646	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51647	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51648	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51649	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51650	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned! - now bristlenose plecos spawning
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51651	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51652	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51653	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51654	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51655	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51656	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51657	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51658	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51659	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51660	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51661	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/4/2011
Subject: Tournament targets exotic, invasive fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51662	From: haecklers	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51663	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: New betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51664	From: Ray	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51665	From: Hermansyah	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51666	From: caroline cormier	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51667	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51668	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51669	From: Ray	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51670	From: haecklers	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51671	From: Chloe	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: found baby!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51672	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51673	From: Chloe	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51674	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Chirping betta update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51675	From: haecklers	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51676	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51677	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51678	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51679	From: haecklers	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51680	From: lrcvb11	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51681	From: haecklers	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51682	From: A B	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51683	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51684	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51685	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51686	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51687	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51688	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51689	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51690	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51691	From: haecklers	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51692	From: Ray	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51693	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51694	From: Ray	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51695	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51696	From: Al Keep	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: the heat.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51697	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51698	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51699	From: William M	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51700	From: Al Keep	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51701	From: William M	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51702	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51703	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51704	From: ScottW	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51705	From: Ray	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51706	From: Wendie	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51707	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51708	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51709	From: Ray	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51710	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51711	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51712	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51713	From: Ray	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51714	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: California Teen, Coming To Colorado For Treatment Of Rare Flesh-Eati
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51715	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Who Am I?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51716	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Who Am I?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51717	From: haecklers	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51718	From: William M	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51719	From: Ray	Date: 7/14/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51720	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 7/14/2011
Subject: Greetings from Missouri
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51721	From: c	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51722	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51723	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51724	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51725	From: Ray	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51726	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51727	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51728	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51729	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51730	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51731	From: Mike Gesy	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: hi im new at this but......
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51732	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51733	From: Bill	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51734	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51735	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51736	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51737	From: haecklers	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51738	From: haecklers	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51739	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51740	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject:
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51741	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51742	From: Bill	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51743	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51744	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51745	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51746	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51747	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51748	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51749	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51750	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51751	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51752	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51753	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51754	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51755	From: alijo79	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Someone in the lubbock area
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51756	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51757	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51758	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51759	From: harry perry	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Bill/From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51760	From: harry perry	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Karlene/From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51761	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51762	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51763	From: himanshu	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51764	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51765	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51766	From: kuradi8	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51767	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51768	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51769	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51770	From: bill 1433	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51771	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51772	From: Ray	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51773	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51774	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51775	From: himanshu kudav	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51776	From: himanshu kudav	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51777	From: Ray	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51778	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51779	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51780	From: Bill	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51781	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51782	From: Bill	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51783	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51784	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/23/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51785	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51786	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51787	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51788	From: kuradi8	Date: 7/25/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51789	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/25/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51790	From: Jade	Date: 7/26/2011
Subject: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51791	From: Bill	Date: 7/26/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51792	From: Kristen Kinzer	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51793	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51794	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51795	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51796	From: Jade	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51797	From: haecklers	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51798	From: Ray	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51799	From: joe t	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramin
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51800	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51801	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51802	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51803	From: Bill	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51804	From: Ray	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51805	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51806	From: Ray	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51807	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51808	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51809	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51810	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51811	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51812	From: Jade	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51813	From: haecklers	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51814	From: Andy Mills	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: A few snail questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51815	From: haecklers	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51816	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51817	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51818	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51819	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51820	From: Andy Mills	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51821	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramin
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51822	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51823	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51824	From: cobra427lady	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51825	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Aquarium TV Show
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51826	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51827	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51828	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51829	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/2/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51830	From: cobra427lady	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51831	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51832	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51833	From: Jade	Date: 8/4/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51834	From: caroline cormier	Date: 8/4/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51835	From: mothermastiff	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51836	From: haecklers	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51837	From: Al Keep	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: tetra' ing
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51838	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51839	From: Bill	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51840	From: john Lewis	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51841	From: Bill	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: tetra' ing
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51842	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51843	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: tetra' ing
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51844	From: Bill Z	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51845	From: Scott Holleman	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51846	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51847	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51848	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51849	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51850	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51851	From: Bill	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51852	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51853	From: Scott	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy/ Into
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51854	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51855	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Talk Radio Stations (Internet)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51856	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51857	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy/ Into
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51858	From: kwondrash	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Freshwater flounders?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51859	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater flounders?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51860	From: haecklers	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51861	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Trouble setting up bubble wall
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51862	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51863	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51864	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51865	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51866	From: haecklers	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51867	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51868	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51869	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51870	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51871	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51872	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51873	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51874	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51875	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51876	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51877	From: haecklers	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51878	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51879	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51880	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51881	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51882	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51883	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51884	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51885	From: haecklers	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51886	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51887	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51888	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51889	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51890	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51891	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51892	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51893	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51894	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51895	From: Sivakumar Viswanathan	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51896	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51897	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51898	From: haecklers	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51899	From: Ray	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51900	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51901	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51902	From: haecklers	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51903	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51904	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51905	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51906	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51907	From: joe t	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51908	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51909	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51910	From: abbyliscious88	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Hey Guys
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51911	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51912	From: Ray	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51913	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51914	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51915	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51916	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51917	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51918	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51919	From: Morgana	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Trouble getting my guppies to breed
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51920	From: haecklers	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble getting my guppies to breed
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51921	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51922	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Hey Guys
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51923	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51924	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble getting my guppies to breed
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51925	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Hey Guys
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51926	From: joe t	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51927	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51928	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51929	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51930	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51931	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51932	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51933	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Molly
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51934	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51935	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51936	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51937	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Angels are free-swimming!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51938	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51939	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51940	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51941	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51942	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51943	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51944	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: New Photos
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51945	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51946	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51947	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51948	From: haecklers	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51949	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51950	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51951	From: joe t	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51952	From: joe t	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51953	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51954	From: haecklers	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51955	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51956	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51957	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51958	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51959	From: haecklers	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51960	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51961	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51962	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51963	From: Bill	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51964	From: haecklers	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51965	From: joe t	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51966	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Faulty Air Pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51967	From: Sam Palermo	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Faulty Air Pump
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51968	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51969	From: haecklers	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51970	From: Bill	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51971	From: haecklers	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51972	From: barbokla	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51973	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51974	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51975	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51976	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51977	From: William M	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Discus Fry.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51978	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51979	From: jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51980	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51981	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51982	From: jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51983	From: Jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51984	From: haecklers	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Syno. Eupeterus (Featherfin Squeaker) question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51985	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51986	From: Al Keep	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51987	From: kwondrash	Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51988	From: William M	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Safe T Sorb
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51989	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51990	From: bamberggreenman	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51991	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Syno. Eupeterus (Featherfin Squeaker) question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51992	From: Morgana	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51993	From: haecklers	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51994	From: Dora Smith	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51995	From: haecklers	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51996	From: Bill	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51997	From: bamberggreenman	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51998	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51999	From: haecklers	Date: 8/30/2011
Subject: Shipping fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52000	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/1/2011
Subject: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52001	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 9/1/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52002	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52003	From: Trycya	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52004	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52005	From: pam andress	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52006	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52007	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52008	From: jaime2526	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Firebellied toads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52009	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52010	From: Bill	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: Firebellied toads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52011	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52012	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52013	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52014	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52015	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52016	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: Firebellied toads
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52017	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52018	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52019	From: Scott Holleman	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52020	From: harry perry	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife Tricia/UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52021	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52022	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52023	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52024	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: re-posting UG
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52025	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52026	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 9/5/2011
Subject: Re: UGF
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52027	From: Al Keep	Date: 9/5/2011
Subject: stocking.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52028	From: k8cz	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: New member
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52029	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52030	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52031	From: betti@optonline.net	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52032	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52033	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52034	From: Gnatholebias	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52035	From: haecklers	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52036	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52037	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52038	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52039	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52040	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52041	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52042	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52043	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52044	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52045	From: joe t	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52046	From: Nessa	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52047	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52048	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52049	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52050	From: Ray	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52051	From: Ray	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52052	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52053	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52054	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52055	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52056	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52057	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52058	From: haecklers	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52059	From: haecklers	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52060	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52061	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52062	From: pam andress	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52063	From: Eric Roberts	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52064	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52065	From: joe t	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52066	From: Nessa	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52067	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52068	From: William J. Scott	Date: 9/13/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52069	From: eldred lim	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52070	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52071	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52072	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52073	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52074	From: haecklers	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52075	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52076	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52077	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52078	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52079	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52080	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 9/16/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52081	From: haecklers	Date: 9/16/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52082	From: haecklers	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Angelfish update!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52083	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52084	From: harry perry	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52085	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies/eggyoke tip for fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52086	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies/eggyoke tip for fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52087	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52088	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52089	From: harry perry	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52090	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52091	From: jasadell	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52092	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52093	From: Ray	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52094	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52095	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52096	From: Noura	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52097	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52098	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52099	From: jasadell	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52100	From: jasadell	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52101	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52102	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52103	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52104	From: Noura	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52105	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52106	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52107	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52108	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52109	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52110	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52111	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52112	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52113	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52114	From: haecklers	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52115	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52116	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52117	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52118	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52119	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52120	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52121	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52122	From: Jaiko	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52123	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52124	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52125	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52126	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52127	From: Becky	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52128	From: k chen	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52129	From: haecklers	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52130	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re "feeder goldfish"-John
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52131	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52132	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52133	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52134	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52135	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52136	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Does Warranty Really Matter?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52137	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52138	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52139	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Re "feeder goldfish"-John
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52140	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52141	From: Ray	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52142	From: Ray	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52143	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52144	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52145	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52146	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52147	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52148	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52149	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52150	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52151	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52152	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52153	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52154	From: jasadell	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52155	From: haecklers	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52156	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52157	From: Noura	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52158	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52159	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52160	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/25/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52161	From: jasadell	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52162	From: jasadell	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52163	From: Ray	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52164	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52165	From: haecklers	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Snapping Turtle hatchling!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52166	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52167	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52168	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52169	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52170	From: The_ONE	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Snapping Turtle hatchling!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52171	From: haecklers	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: New fish treatment?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52172	From: jasadell	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52173	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: Re: New fish treatment?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52174	From: Ray	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52175	From: jasadell	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52176	From: Ray	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52177	From: jasadell	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52178	From: Ray	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52179	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52180	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52181	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52182	From: Ray	Date: 10/1/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52183	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52184	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52185	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52186	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52187	From: Ray	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52188	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52189	From: Ray	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52190	From: haecklers	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52191	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry & now have German Blue Rams Too!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52192	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52193	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52194	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52195	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52196	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52197	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52198	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52199	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52200	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52201	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52202	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52203	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52204	From: Jaiko	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52205	From: jasadell	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52206	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52207	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52208	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52209	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52210	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52211	From: jasadell	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52212	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52213	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52214	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52215	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52216	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52217	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (frustrations)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52218	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52219	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52220	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52221	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52222	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52223	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52224	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52225	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52226	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52227	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52228	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52229	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52230	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52231	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Sunburst Peacock
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52232	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52233	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52234	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52235	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: my goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52236	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: my goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52237	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52238	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52239	From: jasadell	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52240	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52241	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: test------without the A's, I hope??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52242	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: test------without the A's, I hope??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52243	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: my goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52244	From: Laurie	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52245	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels laying
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52246	From: haecklers	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52247	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels lay
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52248	From: Bill	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52249	From: ScottW	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52250	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52251	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52252	From: jasadell	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Sunburst or Ruby Reds?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52253	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52254	From: Bill	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52255	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52256	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52257	From: Karlene	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Weird Fish Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52258	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish Question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52259	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52260	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52261	From: haecklers	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52262	From: jasadell	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Advice on Lighting, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52263	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Advice on Lighting, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52264	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: FW: [AquaticLife] Advice on Lighting, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52265	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52266	From: Ray	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52267	From: Ray	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels laying
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52268	From: William	Date: 10/12/2011
Subject: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52269	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/12/2011
Subject: Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52270	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52271	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52272	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52273	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52274	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52275	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Cichlid male nannies help out, especially if they've been sneaking.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52276	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52277	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52278	From: haecklers	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52279	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/15/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52280	From: Andy Mills	Date: 10/16/2011
Subject: How do clown loaches click?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52281	From: haecklers	Date: 10/16/2011
Subject: Black "red" cherry shrimp - ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52282	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Half moon Bettas?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52283	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52284	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52285	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52286	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52287	From: pam andress	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52288	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52289	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52290	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52291	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Need to Replace lighting...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52292	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52293	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52294	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52295	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52296	From: Bill	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52297	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52298	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52299	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52300	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52301	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52302	From: Bill	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52303	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52304	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52305	From: William M	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Vals..
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52306	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52307	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Vals..
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52308	From: haecklers	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Cory fry feeding question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52309	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52310	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52311	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52312	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52313	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52314	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52315	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52316	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52317	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52318	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52319	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52320	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52321	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52322	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52323	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52324	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52325	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52326	From: haecklers	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52327	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52328	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52329	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52330	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52331	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52332	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52333	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52334	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52335	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52336	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52337	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52338	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52339	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52340	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plant Pics, was - Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52341	From: Ray	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52342	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52343	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52344	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52345	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52346	From: joe t	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Plants, cutting roots, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52347	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52348	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plants, cutting roots, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52349	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52350	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plants, cutting roots, etc
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52351	From: Ray	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52352	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52353	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52354	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/22/2011
Subject: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52355	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52356	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52357	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52358	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52359	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52360	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52361	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52362	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52363	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52364	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52365	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52366	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52367	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52368	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52369	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52370	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52371	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52372	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52373	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52374	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52375	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52376	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52377	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52378	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52379	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52380	From: harry perry	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Shrimp Eggs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52381	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52382	From: harry perry	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52383	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52384	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Shrimp Eggs
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52385	From: William M	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Walmart and the box stores.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52386	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52387	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52388	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52389	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52390	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Walmart and the box stores.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52391	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52392	From: Bill	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Walmart and the box stores.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52393	From: haecklers	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52394	From: Becky	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: New Member Intro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52395	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52396	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52397	From: haecklers	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52398	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52399	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52400	From: Ray	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52401	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52402	From: Al Keep	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: re. greyhabit [max]
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52403	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52404	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: please everyone trim your emails
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52405	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52406	From: haecklers	Date: 10/27/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52407	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52408	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52409	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52410	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52411	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52412	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52413	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52414	From: A Mejia	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52415	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52416	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52417	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Getting started videos ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52418	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: New used tank, yay!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52419	From: haecklers	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52420	From: jasadell	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52421	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Getting started videos ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52422	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52423	From: Bill	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52424	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52425	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52426	From: Al Keep	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52427	From: harry perry	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Amber......Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New used tank, yay!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52428	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52429	From: haecklers	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52430	From: jasadell	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52431	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52432	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52433	From: harry perry	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52434	From: Bill	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52435	From: haecklers	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52436	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52437	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52438	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52439	From: Bill	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52440	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52441	From: pam andress	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52442	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52443	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52444	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52445	From: Ray	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52446	From: harry perry	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52447	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52448	From: jasadell	Date: 11/1/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52449	From: Twoo Sd	Date: 11/1/2011
Subject: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52450	From: Ray	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Re: Hello everyone
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52451	From: haecklers	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52452	From: harry perry	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Ray...... Your opinion.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52453	From: Ray	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Re: Ray...... Your opinion.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52454	From: jasadell	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52455	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52456	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52457	From: Ray	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52458	From: haecklers	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52459	From: Dora Smith	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52460	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52461	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52462	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52463	From: Bill	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52464	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52465	From: kwondrash	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Recommendations on UV sterilizers?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52466	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52467	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52468	From: jasadell	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52469	From: bill 1433	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52470	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52471	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Recommendations on UV sterilizers?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52472	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52473	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Alas, My German Blue Rams...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52474	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52475	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52476	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Alas, My German Blue Rams...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52477	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52478	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52479	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52480	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52481	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52482	From: pam andress	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52483	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52484	From: pam andress	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52485	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52486	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52487	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52488	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52489	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52490	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52491	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52492	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Six Days Off Grid
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52493	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52494	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52495	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Six Days Off Grid
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52496	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52497	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Six Days Off Grid
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52498	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52499	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52500	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52501	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52502	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52503	From: Bill	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52504	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52505	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52506	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52507	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52508	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52509	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52510	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52511	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52512	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52513	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52514	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52515	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52516	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Saturday's Test Results for Both Aquarium (after 2 PWC) and Tap wate
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52517	From: William M	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52518	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Saturday's Test Results for Both Aquarium (after 2 PWC) and Tap
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52519	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52520	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52521	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52522	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52523	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52524	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52525	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52526	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52527	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52528	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52529	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52530	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Ram Fry Update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52531	From: jasadell	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52532	From: jasadell	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52533	From: Bill	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52534	From: Bill	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52535	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52536	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52537	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52538	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52539	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52540	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52541	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52542	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52543	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52544	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52545	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52546	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52547	From: William M	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52548	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52549	From: Ray	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52550	From: Ray	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52551	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52552	From: K T Ong	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52554	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Good Grief! Free Swimming Fry with the Parent Rams!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52555	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52556	From: jasadell	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52557	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: (unknown)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52558	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52559	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52560	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52561	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52563	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52564	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52565	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52566	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52567	From: haecklers	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52568	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52569	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52570	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52571	From: jasadell	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52572	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52573	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52574	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52575	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52576	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52577	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52578	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52579	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52580	From: haecklers	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: spixi snails source?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52581	From: pam andress	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: Re: spixi snails source?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52582	From: haecklers	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: Re: spixi snails source?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52583	From: jasadell	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52584	From: K T Ong	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: (no subject)
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52585	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52586	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52587	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52588	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Lifespan of fishes - answer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52589	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Re: Lifespan of fishes - answer
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52590	From: jasadell	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52591	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52592	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52593	From: haecklers	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52594	From: Ray	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52595	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Microworm Cultures
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52596	From: jasadell	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52597	From: jasadell	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Do Ragged Fins Regenerate?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52598	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52599	From: Ray	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52600	From: haecklers	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52601	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Do Ragged Fins Regenerate?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52602	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52603	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52604	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52605	From: jasadell	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52606	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52607	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52608	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52609	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52610	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52611	From: haecklers	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Any shrimp catching tips??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52612	From: jasadell	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52613	From: barbokla	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52614	From: bill 1433	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52615	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52616	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52617	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52618	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52619	From: pam andress	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Any shrimp catching tips??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52620	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52621	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52622	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52623	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52624	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52625	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52626	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52627	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52628	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52629	From: Woody	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52630	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52631	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52632	From: Ray	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52633	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52634	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52635	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52636	From: joe t	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52637	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52638	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52639	From: Ray	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52640	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52641	From: kuradi8	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52642	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52643	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52644	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Latest
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52645	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52646	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52647	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52648	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52649	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52650	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52651	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52652	From: haecklers	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52653	From: haecklers	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52654	From: Bill	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52655	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52656	From: Dora Smith	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52657	From: The_ONE	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52658	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52659	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52660	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52661	From: Ray	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Latest
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52662	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52663	From: haecklers	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52664	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52665	From: kuradi8	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52666	From: jasadell	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52667	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52668	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52669	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Looking for more plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52670	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Looking for more plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52671	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52672	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52673	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: Looking for more plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52674	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52675	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52676	From: kuradi8	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52677	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52678	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52679	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52680	From: Bill	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52681	From: Mike Whitfield	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52682	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52683	From: pam andress	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52684	From: Bill	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52685	From: haecklers	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52686	From: haecklers	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52687	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52688	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52689	From: pam andress	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52690	From: pam andress	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52691	From: haecklers	Date: 12/4/2011
Subject: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52692	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/4/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52693	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52694	From: haecklers	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52695	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52696	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52697	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52698	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52699	From: Bill	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52700	From: john Lewis	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52701	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52702	From: Bill	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52703	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52704	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52705	From: Bill	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52706	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52707	From: Ray	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52708	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52709	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52710	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52711	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: New tank, cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52712	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52713	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52714	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!/Trimming Plant Roots
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52715	From: gail.johnson2@gmail.com	Date: 12/8/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52716	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/8/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52717	From: Ray	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52718	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52719	From: Paul	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Sock Filter - Has anybody used these?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52720	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: Re: Sock Filter - Has anybody used these?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52721	From: Jessica Sheldon	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52722	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: Re: help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52723	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52724	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52725	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52726	From: haecklers	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52727	From: Bill	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52728	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52729	From: haecklers	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52730	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52731	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52732	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/14/2011
Subject: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52733	From: Ray	Date: 12/14/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52734	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52735	From: Ray	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52736	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52737	From: Ray	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52738	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: problem with new tank setup
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52739	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52740	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52741	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52742	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52743	From: William	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52744	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52745	From: Ray	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52746	From: haecklers	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52747	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52748	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: molly as starter fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52749	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52750	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52751	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52752	From: cobra427lady	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: Standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52753	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: Molly as starter... info about setup and more questions...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52754	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52755	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52756	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52757	From: Tamara Burnett	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Jack Demsey blue carriers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52758	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52759	From: haecklers	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: Jack Demsey blue carriers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52760	From: Tamara Burnett	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: Jack Demsey blue carriers
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52761	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: UPDATE>> Only tiger barbs getting Ill
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52762	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52763	From: haecklers	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52764	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52765	From: kbgwp	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52766	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52767	From: joe t	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Winter Eating Woes??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52768	From: haecklers	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52769	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Winter Eating Woes??
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52770	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52771	From: kbgwp	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52772	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52773	From: Bill	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52774	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52775	From: Brigitte Cherubini	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52776	From: haecklers	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52777	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52778	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52779	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52780	From: haecklers	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52781	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Cambarellus patzcuarensis (mexican dwarf crayfish) heeeeelp
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52782	From: William M	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Re: Cambarellus patzcuarensis (mexican dwarf crayfish) heeeeelp
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52783	From: William M	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52784	From: haecklers	Date: 12/26/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52785	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52786	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52787	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52788	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52789	From: bill 1433	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52790	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Trimming Plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52791	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52792	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Rehoming goldfish
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52793	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 12/29/2011
Subject: Trimming Plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52794	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/29/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Plants
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52795	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52796	From: Ray	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52797	From: Ray	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52798	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52799	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52800	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52801	From: Grady Ferguson	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52802	From: William M	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52803	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52804	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? - about fish stores...
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52805	From: Ray	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52806	From: Ray	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52807	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium
Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52808	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

---

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49872	From: Ray	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: HAPPY NEW YEAR !

A Healthy and Prosperous One ____________________________

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49873	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

I know I should have rinsed it off before putting it in the tank... The morning after the evening I put in the new heater, I noticed my guppies were all in a clump on the floor of the aquarium. The betta, who seems to be unaffected, was swimming up to them and nipping them, I think just because she could. The gouramis were paler than usual but still happily took the live brine shrimp at feeding time. By evening the guppies were all gasping at the surface with swollen gills and pintails. I'm not sure if this is from a chemical residue on the heater, from something that infected them from the live brine shrimp I fed them, or something else entirely. The ghost shrimp and kuhli loaches in there also are acting normal, actually happier than usual because it's warmer now, which makes me wonder if it's a water problem after all. The brine shrimp are from a pet store that often has sick fish in a lot of the tanks, so I'm not sure if they could have gotten contaminated, but I've given them to fish in all of my tanks and none of the rest of them look sick and ALL the guppies, only in this tank, got sick at once. I've set up to do a water change and I put in some Maracyn 2 because the box showed a fish with swollen gills and said it treats "gill disease" - whatever that is! Unfortunately I just finished the water changes for the week and had the buckets outside to dry out and let the sunlight kill some germs (UV), so I wasn't prepared with any aged water to use, and not sure that was the issue anyway. What would you do???

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49874	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Guppies like colder water than the others I believe. Maybe they just don’t like the change? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 7:32 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? I know I should have rinsed it off before putting it in the tank... The morning after the evening I put in the new heater, I noticed my guppies were all in a clump on the floor of the aquarium. The betta, who seems to be unaffected, was swimming up to them and nipping them, I think just because she could. The gouramis were paler than usual but still happily took the live brine shrimp at feeding time. By evening the guppies were all gasping at the surface with swollen gills and pintails. I'm not sure if this is from a chemical residue on the heater, from something that infected them from the live brine shrimp I fed them, or something else entirely. The ghost shrimp and kuhli loaches in there also are acting normal, actually happier than usual because it's warmer now, which makes me wonder if it's a water problem after all. The brine shrimp are from a pet store that often has sick fish in a lot of the tanks, so I'm not sure if they could have gotten contaminated, but I've given them to fish in all of my tanks and none of the rest of them look sick and ALL the guppies, only in this tank, got sick at once. I've set up to do a water change and I put in some Maracyn 2 because the box showed a fish with swollen gills and said it treats "gill disease" - whatever that is! Unfortunately I just finished the water changes for the week and had the buckets outside to dry out and let the sunlight kill some germs (UV), so I wasn't prepared with any aged water to use, and not sure that was the issue anyway. What would you do??? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49875	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused by the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping an eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a problem. When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails are clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so what do you use? The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the guppies are already in that tank. As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, especially the fancy varieties. Why do you age your water, as it seems you are doing? Until you answer the questions posed above, this is a far as I will go without an understanding of your environment. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 7:32 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? I know I should have rinsed it off before putting it in the tank... The morning after the evening I put in the new heater, I noticed my guppies were all in a clump on the floor of the aquarium. The betta, who seems to be unaffected, was swimming up to them and nipping them, I think just because she could. The gouramis were paler than usual but still happily took the live brine shrimp at feeding time. By evening the guppies were all gasping at the surface with swollen gills and pintails. I'm not sure if this is from a chemical residue on the heater, from something that infected them from the live brine shrimp I fed them, or something else entirely. The ghost shrimp and kuhli loaches in there also are acting normal, actually happier than usual because it's warmer now, which makes me wonder if it's a water problem after all. The brine shrimp are from a pet store that often has sick fish in a lot of the tanks, so I'm not sure if they could have gotten contaminated, but I've given them to fish in all of my tanks and none of the rest of them look sick and ALL the guppies, only in this tank, got sick at once. I've set up to do a water change and I put in some Maracyn 2 because the box showed a fish with swollen gills and said it treats "gill disease" - whatever that is! Unfortunately I just finished the water changes for the week and had the buckets outside to dry out and let the sunlight kill some germs (UV), so I wasn't prepared with any aged water to use, and not sure that was the issue anyway. What would you do???

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49876	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: [Bulk] [AquaticLife] Anyone else have fish get sick after adding

You have a thermometer in that tank, right? If not, get one - or better yet, two of them! Those heaters often malfunction. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 6:31 AM Subject: [Bulk] [AquaticLife] Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? I know I should have rinsed it off before putting it in the tank... The morning after the evening I put in the new heater, I noticed my guppies were all in a clump on the floor of the aquarium. The betta, who seems to be unaffected, was swimming up to them and nipping them, I think just because she could. The gouramis were paler than usual but still happily took the live brine shrimp at feeding time. By evening the guppies were all gasping at the surface with swollen gills and pintails. I'm not sure if this is from a chemical residue on the heater, from something that infected them from the live brine shrimp I fed them, or something else entirely. The ghost shrimp and kuhli loaches in there also are acting normal, actually happier than usual because it's warmer now, which makes me wonder if it's a water problem after all. The brine shrimp are from a pet store that often has sick fish in a lot of the tanks, so I'm not sure if they could have gotten contaminated, but I've given them to fish in all of my tanks and none of the rest of them look sick and ALL the guppies, only in this tank, got sick at once. I've set up to do a water change and I put in some Maracyn 2 because the box showed a fish with swollen gills and said it treats "gill disease" - whatever that is! Unfortunately I just finished the water changes for the week and had the buckets outside to dry out and let the sunlight kill some germs (UV), so I wasn't prepared with any aged water to use, and not sure that was the issue anyway. What would you do??? ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49877	From: Melani	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

it could have been the heater warmed the water to fast. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49878	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

My answers are below: --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused by > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping an > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > problem. > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails are > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so > what do you use? Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate below measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the water. > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > guppies are already in that tank. > Thanks for the advice. > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > especially the fancy varieties. > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience they don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that as well. The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for a several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine shrimp.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49879	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water changes with “aged” water before this? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? My answers are below: --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused by > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping an > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > problem. > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails are > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so > what do you use? Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate below measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the water. > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > guppies are already in that tank. > Thanks for the advice. > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > especially the fancy varieties. > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience they don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that as well. The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for a several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine shrimp. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49880	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

If you are using municipal water, then Donna has supplied you with the possible cause and solution to your answer--get yourself down to the LFS ASAP and get some conditioner. Add it directly to the tank directly. Then use it for any subsequent water changes. If you run out again, postpone the water change until you can get more. When giving water parameters, we need numbers. What is normal pH? I have no idea. You also failed to note the water temperature. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? My answers are below: --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused by > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping an > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > problem. > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails are > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so > what do you use? Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate below measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the water. > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > guppies are already in that tank. > Thanks for the advice. > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > especially the fancy varieties. > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience they don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that as well. The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for a several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine shrimp. ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49881	From: haecklers	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Yes, often. I change 10% - 15% every week. I've tested the water from the tap and it doesn't test for chlorine or ammonia after it is aged. Of course that doesn't rule out that they changed chemicals on us! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding > chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water changes > with "aged" water before this? > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new > heater? > > > > > > My answers are below: > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused > by > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping > an > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > problem. > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails > are > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so > > what do you use? > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate below > measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the > water. > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience they > don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping > the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the > gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for > camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that > as well. > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for a > several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine > shrimp. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49882	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Breeding assassin snails

i want to start a colony of them how hard is it to breed

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49883	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

The annual water report from your water source, be it public or private, will tell you if chloramines are being used, or if it is just chlorine. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:08 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? Yes, often. I change 10% - 15% every week. I've tested the water from the tap and it doesn't test for chlorine or ammonia after it is aged. Of course that doesn't rule out that they changed chemicals on us! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding > chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water changes > with "aged" water before this? > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new > heater? > > > > > > My answers are below: > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was caused > by > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it only > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while keeping > an > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > problem. > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails > are > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if so > > what do you use? > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate below > measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the > water. > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 tablespoon > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience they > don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping > the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the > gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for > camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that > as well. > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for a > several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine > shrimp. > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49884	From: William M	Date: 1/1/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding assassin snails

You need bout male and female Assassin snails to get fertilize eggs. You also need a supply of snails such as common pond snails, rams horn snails or MTS so that they will breed ore often. If you run out of snails, they will eat the same foods that other snails eat but they do not breed as fast. A female will only lay abut three eggs a month under good conditions so it will take a awhile before you see any numbers of them. The young will stay hidden for a month or more until they are large enough to come out of the gravel or mulm so if you do gravel cleaning you might clean up the baby assassin snails so make sure to be careful when doing water changes. Good luck. Also it helps to have extra calcium in the tank for their shells. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Elijah Salazar" <elijah258@...> wrote: > > i want to start a colony of them how hard is it to breed >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49885	From: haecklers	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Our water company reserves the right to "shock" the water when counts get high. Some days you can smell it, very bad smell from the tap water, like hydrogen sulfide and chloride mixed and strong. UGH! The fish seem to be recovering. I dosed the whole tank with Maracyn 2, took out the heater and washed it off (in just tap water). It had a layer of slime on it after just one day. I was sorely tempted to remove them but had nowhere else to put them since the "spare" tank now has 100 betta fry in it (split them due to overcrowding!). I've also been only feeding them very lightly. Didn't want food to rot in the water and they didn't look very hungry, tho they did take the food when offered. My latest theory is there was some chemical residue on the new heater that stressed the fish enough that they all got sick at once with some germs that had been in the tank all along. I hadn't added any new fish, and nothing else was different. The betta did start looking sick yesterday. I can't tell with the bristlenose or kuhlis because they're not active during the day anyways. I'll finish the medicine and do water changes. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The annual water report from your water source, be it public or private, > will tell you if chloramines are being used, or if it is just chlorine. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:08 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new > heater? > > Yes, often. I change 10% - 15% every week. > > I've tested the water from the tap and it doesn't test for chlorine or > ammonia after it is aged. Of course that doesn't rule out that they changed > chemicals on us! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding > > chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water changes > > with "aged" water before this? > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of haecklers > > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a > new > > heater? > > > > > > > > > > > > My answers are below: > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was > caused > > by > > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it > only > > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while > keeping > > an > > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > > problem. > > > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails > > are > > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, > and > > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if > so > > > what do you use? > > > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate > below > > measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the > > water. > > > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 > tablespoon > > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience > they > > don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping > > the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the > > gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for > > camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for > that > > as well. > > > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for > a > > several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine > > shrimp. > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49886	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Our water company tries to give us some warning about the impending action should they need to do it. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 8:12 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? Our water company reserves the right to "shock" the water when counts get high. Some days you can smell it, very bad smell from the tap water, like hydrogen sulfide and chloride mixed and strong. UGH! The fish seem to be recovering. I dosed the whole tank with Maracyn 2, took out the heater and washed it off (in just tap water). It had a layer of slime on it after just one day. I was sorely tempted to remove them but had nowhere else to put them since the "spare" tank now has 100 betta fry in it (split them due to overcrowding!). I've also been only feeding them very lightly. Didn't want food to rot in the water and they didn't look very hungry, tho they did take the food when offered. My latest theory is there was some chemical residue on the new heater that stressed the fish enough that they all got sick at once with some germs that had been in the tank all along. I hadn't added any new fish, and nothing else was different. The betta did start looking sick yesterday. I can't tell with the bristlenose or kuhlis because they're not active during the day anyways. I'll finish the medicine and do water changes. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The annual water report from your water source, be it public or private, > will tell you if chloramines are being used, or if it is just chlorine. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:08 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new > heater? > > Yes, often. I change 10% - 15% every week. > > I've tested the water from the tap and it doesn't test for chlorine or > ammonia after it is aged. Of course that doesn't rule out that they changed > chemicals on us! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding > > chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water changes > > with "aged" water before this? > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of haecklers > > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a > new > > heater? > > > > > > > > > > > > My answers are below: > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was > caused > > by > > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it > only > > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while > keeping > > an > > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > > problem. > > > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their tails > > are > > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, > and > > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, if > so > > > what do you use? > > > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate > below > > measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age the > > water. > > > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 > tablespoon > > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience > they > > don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was keeping > > the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the > > gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them for > > camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for > that > > as well. > > > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable for > a > > several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh brine > > shrimp. > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49887	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

Did you change the temperature of the tank more than 2 degrees higher? If so then that can quickly cause fish deaths if you raise the temp too high and too fast. You shouldn't raise it more than 2 degrees per day. Amber On 1/1/2011 8:09 AM, haecklers wrote: > > My answers are below: > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was > caused by > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and > it only > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies are. > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while > keeping an > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > problem. > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their > tails are > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, > nitrate, and > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, > if so > > what do you use? > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate > below measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need > to age the water. > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 > tablespoon > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after the > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide temperature > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my > experience they don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My > freebie heater was keeping the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's > and barely tolerable for the gourami. My guppies had also stopped > reproducing since I treated them for camallanus worms, and I was > thinking maybe it was too cool for them for that as well. > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable > for a several months. The heater was the only change, other than the > fresh brine shrimp. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49888	From: TW A	Date: 1/3/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

been awhile since I have been on the site, came on to see what anyone was saying about theLED lights. The ballast went out on my light, so I am taking the opportunity to upgrade my cheap aqueon kit light for the marine land double bright. While I am waiting for it to arrive I have been playingaroud with my LED flashlights. Trying to create cool lighting effects. I have found 1w LEDs online and wondered if anyone has tried to create their own custom LED lighting, and what components are need. Seems the lights have a maxvoltage of around 14 volts. I plan on talking to an electrician buddy about it also.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49889	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

If your tank had a layer of slime after just one day, the nitrates and/or phosphates must have been very high. Be aware that if you essentially disinfected your tank, you may have to get the biological filtering going all over again - and your tank will not be able to support the quantity of fish that it did. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 7:12 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater? Our water company reserves the right to "shock" the water when counts get high. Some days you can smell it, very bad smell from the tap water, like hydrogen sulfide and chloride mixed and strong. UGH! The fish seem to be recovering. I dosed the whole tank with Maracyn 2, took out the heater and washed it off (in just tap water). It had a layer of slime on it after just one day. I was sorely tempted to remove them but had nowhere else to put them since the "spare" tank now has 100 betta fry in it (split them due to overcrowding!). I've also been only feeding them very lightly. Didn't want food to rot in the water and they didn't look very hungry, tho they did take the food when offered. My latest theory is there was some chemical residue on the new heater that stressed the fish enough that they all got sick at once with some germs that had been in the tank all along. I hadn't added any new fish, and nothing else was different. The betta did start looking sick yesterday. I can't tell with the bristlenose or kuhlis because they're not active during the day anyways. I'll finish the medicine and do water changes. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The annual water report from your water source, be it public or private, > will tell you if chloramines are being used, or if it is just chlorine. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 3:08 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a > new > heater? > > Yes, often. I change 10% - 15% every week. > > I've tested the water from the tap and it doesn't test for chlorine or > ammonia after it is aged. Of course that doesn't rule out that they > changed > chemicals on us! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > Aging water used to work in the US before municipalities started adding > > chloramines which do not evaporate or outgas. Have you done water > > changes > > with "aged" water before this? > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of haecklers > > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 12:10 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a > new > > heater? > > > > > > > > > > > > My answers are below: > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a tendency to doubt that what is happening in your tank was > caused > > by > > > the heater. It should have affected all your fish in the tank, and it > only > > > seems to be affecting the guppies at this point. > > > > The gourami are affected as well, but not to the extreme the guppies > > are. > > > > > > I would remove the guppies to their own tank for treatment, while > keeping > > an > > > eye on the other fish in the new heater tank for symptoms indicating a > > > problem. > > > > > > When you say that the guppies have pintail, do you mean that their > > > tails > > are > > > clamped rather than displaying? Are any other fins clamped? > > > > > Yes, all their fins are clamped tightly to their bodies. > > > > > What are your current water parameters, pH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, > and > > > temperature? Do you use a water conditioner when changing the water, > > > if > so > > > what do you use? > > > > Parameters are fine - pH same as normal, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate > below > > measurable. I ran out of water conditioner, which is why I need to age > > the > > water. > > > > > > The treatment I would recommend at this point is to add about 1 > tablespoon > > > of salt to 5 gallons of water in the quarantine tank. Do this after > > > the > > > guppies are already in that tank. > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice. > > > > > As for the other reply to your message, guppies have a wide > > > temperature > > > range--60° to 90° F. though they will do best in the low to mid 70's, > > > especially the fancy varieties. > > > > > While the guppies can survive a range of temperatures, in my experience > they > > don't seem to grow much in water below 70 F. My freebie heater was > > keeping > > the water just 68, too cool for the kuhli's and barely tolerable for the > > gourami. My guppies had also stopped reproducing since I treated them > > for > > camallanus worms, and I was thinking maybe it was too cool for them for > that > > as well. > > > > The tank is a heavily planted Walstad tank, it had been pretty stable > > for > a > > several months. The heater was the only change, other than the fresh > > brine > > shrimp. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49890	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Look on ebay. Search for LED STRIP. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "TW A" <dewdude35@...> wrote: > > > been awhile since I have been on the site, came on to see what anyone was saying about theLED lights. The ballast went out on my light, so I am taking the opportunity to upgrade my cheap aqueon kit light for the marine land double bright. While I am waiting for it to arrive I have been playingaroud with my LED flashlights. Trying to create cool lighting effects. I have found 1w LEDs online and wondered if anyone has tried to create their own custom LED lighting, and what components are need. Seems the lights have a maxvoltage of around 14 volts. I plan on talking to an electrician buddy about it also. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49891	From: haecklers	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone else have fish get sick after adding a new heater?

My concern was the slime may have already been on the heater before I put it in - like a chemical thing. The heater has rubber on the bottom and suction cups, that's where it felt slimy. I have been worrying about the bacteria in there after using the antibiotic. Mardel says they test their antibiotics against the denitrifying bacteria and it does not affect them. But in Diana Walstad's book she talks about biofilms in which gram positive bacteria live next to gram negative in a highly organized bacteria colony where each type of bacteria has a role and all of them working together lead to the good water quality. The filters work by using the biofilm that builds up on the media, supplying it with air and nutrients so the biofilm thrives and digests the wastes in the water. If there are many types all working together and you wipe out some of them, it seems it could throw off the whole balance. I wonder if Mardel tested their drugs in a running tank or in petri dishes. I wonder about the whole temperature thing. When we had the fish outdoors in 20 gallon tubs, the temperature was different going from the top of the water to the bottom, also the temperature went up and down with the day and night. Yet those fish were the healthiest I've ever had (except when the temperature got REALLY hot, like when the air was 100 for a few days in a row). The fish would swim from the depths of the water where it was cool to the top where it was probably 10 degrees warmer to eat, then go back down again to get the pieces they missed. They were healthy. We got 12 feeder guppies and lost almost none of them, and they're well-known to come carrying all kinds of diseases and parasites and have poor survivability as pets. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > If your tank had a layer of slime after just one day, the nitrates and/or > phosphates must have been very high. > > Be aware that if you essentially disinfected your tank, you may have to get > the biological filtering going all over again - and your tank will not be > able to support the quantity of fish that it did. > > Yours, > Villandra Thorsdottir > Austin, Texas

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49892	From: TW A	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on trying some on my own.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49893	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Try it again adding 110V or AC to narrow your choices. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "TW A" <dewdude35@...> wrote: > > Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on trying some on my own. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49894	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

I held off replying hoping there would be more discussion and more resources posted. There is a 12 Volt DC group on yahoo groups that occasionally discuss LEDs and how many people use them for 12 volt applications. This group is a stickler for adhering to 12 volt discussions so you are forewarned. Many in that group wish to stay off the grid as much as possible and use 12 volt batteries and LEDs as a source of lighting. Some people use xmas tree LEDs and wire them up in the fashion they desire for lighting. They may be able to provide you with some guidance on how you might go about wiring LEDs and then you would need to look into an inexpensive power inverter to get them plugged into 110 current. I originally joined that group for ideas on solar setups and running my fish room on 12 volt or 24 volt instead of the local power company. My electric bills are a burden right now. Please let us know whatever route you take with the LED lighting as I am sure many people could use the information. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: TW A <dewdude35@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Jan 4, 2011 3:03 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: LED Pricing Lower? Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on trying some on my own.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49895	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

I have seen people use the blue LED light strands (like the kind you get at Wal-Mart around Christmas time and they come in different colors) as night lights inside of a DIY light fixture/hood. They run the cable back and forth along the inside of the hood (away from the other lights as they all generate heat and you don't want too much heat built up without no fans to disperse the heat), then secure it with zipties and screws so it stays in place. I don't have a picture handy, but I can do a google search to see if I can find something similar. I didn't find exactly what I was looking for, but I did find a forum posting from someone who built their own LED light fixture. http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=217694 Amber On 1/4/2011 2:03 PM, TW A wrote: > > Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was > hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found > some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for > highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced > out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug > the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible > necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical > supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own > decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted > for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate > the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, > hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just > curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on > trying some on my own. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49896	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

You will need a converter. If you know the total wattage you need, and you already mentioned 14 volts, look at the electronic parts outlets to see if you can find one of the proper output for your work. You can go higher on the wattage than you need, but do not go lower. I do not know what kind of variation you can have with the volts, but you probably have some room to maneuver there, particularly on the low side. I know a place that may be a good source for you, but I have not bookmarked it. I'll need to try to remember to look it up for you tomorrow when I am in the office. They carry lots of odd stuff, so I am fairly certain they probably have something suitable for LEDs. We only use them when we are looking for something odd or weird. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TW A Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 6:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: LED Pricing Lower? Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on trying some on my own.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49897	From: DenaB	Date: 1/4/2011
Subject: Fish Lice on my snail

Can someone please help me with my last living Mystery or Apple Snail. He and his mates all got fish lice f rom two snails I bought in a pet store in Dayton, OH. First I tried Melafix according to their directions. Now I am using Parasite Clear from Jungle. It seemed to slow down briefly, even with the required water changes, but it returned with a vengeance and I am using a tooth bruch trying to get these tiny white lice of his shell. But I see he is slowing down, not eating much and his mates have all died. These large snails do better in groups. The guppies are completely unaffected, eating, breeding, like nothing is happening. Is there a way to sterilize this tank and pump to use for a new batch of apple snails. I love them so much and they can't live in a bowl, like their smaller brethren can, I am going to try to keep my buddy alive, but if I cannnot do so, can the tank ever be used again and the pump as well. Thank you, Dend in Dayton, OH

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49898	From: Mark	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

I have the LED light strips on my tank. I used a 13.5 and you can use a 12 volt ac-dc transformer that come from a battery operated cd play,radio etc (I had these laying around). The little box you plug into the wall, they work great. I have 3 lights hooked up on my 55g ($5.25)and going to have 1 hooked on my 10g tank ($1.75). They claim to be water proof but I'm not sure about submerging them, there made for getting splashed on or rained on. I have them overhead but did drop one in the tank with no problems --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "TW A" <dewdude35@...> wrote: > > Sure, interesting search, but these are automotive applications. I was hoping to find a way to use my house electricity. A while back I found some led underwater lights, individual and submersible. Used for highlighting features within the aquarium. They were being clearanced out and was only the lights. There was a unit you had to have to plug the wires into. I was thinking along those lines. Not submersible necessarrily, anyhow, finding led lights on bay and thru electrical supply companies, I was curious if anyone had tried doing their own decorator lighting with their tanks and what components they opted for. Marineland has a submersible bubblewand with LEDs that illuminate the bubbles as they ascend. My light should arrive Friday, hasbritewhite and blue light for simulated moonlight viewing. Just curious as I said what results any of you have had. I stll plan on trying some on my own. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49899	From: lara7712	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Goldfish

My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49900	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice on my snail

Are you sure what you are dealing with is fish lice? That doesn't sound like fish lice to me... can you post some photos of the problem? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "DenaB" <denabrown2710@...> wrote: > > Can someone please help me with my last living Mystery or Apple Snail. > He and his mates all got fish lice f rom two snails I bought in a pet store in Dayton, OH. First I tried Melafix according to their directions. Now I am using Parasite Clear from Jungle. It seemed to slow down briefly, even with the required water changes, but it returned with a vengeance and I am using a tooth bruch trying to get these tiny white lice of his shell. But I see he is slowing down, not eating much and his mates have all died. These large snails do better in groups. The guppies are completely unaffected, eating, breeding, like nothing is happening. Is there a way to sterilize this tank and pump to use for a new batch of apple snails. I love them so much and they can't live in a bowl, like their smaller brethren can, I am going to try to keep my buddy alive, but if I cannnot do so, can the tank ever be used again and the pump as well. > > Thank you, Dend in Dayton, OH >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49901	From: TW A	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Thanks for the links. I had read about the heat, which I thought was not supposed to be an issue on LEDs... Guess I am no longer ignorant on that. The higher output lights needed to illuminate aquariums. I am a bit of an amateur on that aspect. I talked to an electrician friend I work with and he has given me the technical advice I was seeking, similar to what the link Amber posted. I guess I was not very clear on the lighting , I was talking about, I was going to do accent lighting on the vegetation and structures in the tank. Like one does around the yard. Thanks for pointing me in a few directions to search though. For the main daylight I have my marine land one coming Friday care of the fed ex guy. I hope it lives up to expectations. If I get it to work out the way I want I will post some pics. Don't hold your breath. Might take me awhile to sort out what I am doing.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49902	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Is this a brand new tank? Amber On 1/5/2011 12:12 PM, lara7712 wrote: > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the > bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time > he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The > other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to > serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have > been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was > tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong > with the one hiding at the bottom? > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49903	From: Tinus and Lara van der Merwe	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Yes the tank ran for a week prior to us buying the 1st goldfish who sadly passed away after 3 days and then we took the water sample to be tested and it was perfect and then we bought the 2 new goldfish! > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: arberglund@... > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:18:02 -0900 > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Goldfish > > Is this a brand new tank? > > Amber > > On 1/5/2011 12:12 PM, lara7712 wrote: > > > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the > > bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time > > he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The > > other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to > > serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have > > been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was > > tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong > > with the one hiding at the bottom? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49904	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Did you cycle your filter on an established tank before adding fish? If everything is newly set up (filter/tank/gravel) then you need to establish your nitrifying bacteria. This happens naturally but takes at least 3 weeks (sometimes longer) typically before the filter is fully established and ready for fish, to establish it (without fish) you have to add ammonia (with no additives, just pure ammonia) each day and the bacteria will naturally grow and establish in your filter media. Fish also put out ammonia and will cause the nitrifying bacteria to grow, but the ammonia can quickly build to toxic levels and kill your fish. When you cycle the tank with fish in it you will have to do at minimum daily water changes to keep the ammonia/nitrites/nitrates from building to dangerous levels and killing your fish. Testing your tank will tell you what your ammonia levels are at and how often you will need to do water changes, without knowing your tank water or tap water parameters I can't suggest how much you change at a time, it's probably better to start with 10% water change and wait a few hours and do another 10% water change, that way the water won't change too much and shock the fish causing stress and possibly death. You may have to do more than 2 water changes a day, depending how fast the ammonia builds up from your fish, again you will need a test kit for this. I recommend going out and getting yourself a master test kit (the kind with liquid reagents and vials for mixing), you can get a good master test kit from API, and you can also order it from walmart.com and have it shipped to your local store for free pickup and it will save you a lot of money (I believe the kit is close to $18). You will have to do daily testing to make sure your water parameters are safe for the fish, otherwise they can quickly die from poisoning from the ammonia/nitrite/nitrates. Ammonia is the first in the tank cycling and should always read 0 in an established tank, the pH determines how high the ammonia levels can get before they are toxic to the fish. You should also do a base line test on your tap water parameters to see what they are when first out of the tap (use a large bucket like 5 gallons), test right out of the tap then again after 24 hours and then again after 48 hours. You will want to test for everything (ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, and pH. And if possible pickup a gh/kh test kit to see how hard/soft your water is, API also makes a separate test kit for this that is not included in the master test kit). Always remember to shake the reagents before testing, and shake them now and again if you don't test your tank often as the reagents don't always stay mixed in their container and can give you bad results if not shaken well before testing. Also goldfish are very dirty fish, so they may require more tank/filter cleanings than you would guess. They also grow fairly big and need a good sized tank (depending on the type of goldfish you have you need at least 30 gallons per fish, the torpedo shaped comets/feeder goldfish require more than that as they can grow very large). When you do your filter cleanings you don't need to throw any of the filter media away (some directions tell you to do this), you can remove some of your tank water into a bucket and use that water to swish and squeese out the filter media into to clean it, this will keep your nitrifying bacteria from dieing off and save you money from buying new filter media all the time. Let me know if you have any more questions, and don't feel stupid asking too many questions, we all learn from asking. I was once in your position not too long ago and lost over $300 worth of fish my first month because the local fish store (LFS) didn't explain anything to me when I was setting up my tank for the first time, and all my fish died during the cycle process. Amber On 1/5/2011 2:24 PM, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe wrote: > > > Yes the tank ran for a week prior to us buying the 1st goldfish who > sadly passed away after 3 days and then we took the water sample to be > tested and it was perfect and then we bought the 2 new goldfish! > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > From: arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:18:02 -0900 > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Goldfish > > > > Is this a brand new tank? > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/5/2011 12:12 PM, lara7712 wrote: > > > > > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the > > > bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding > time > > > he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The > > > other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to > > > serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have > > > been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was > > > tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong > > > with the one hiding at the bottom? > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49905	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49906	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Here is the links to the parts place I promised you yesterday. Marlin P. Jones & Assoc, Inc. 1133 Old Dixie Highway P.O. Box 530400 Lake Park, Florida 33403 http://www.mpja.com/ Don't get too distracted by all the nifty stuff there <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TW A Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:46 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: LED Pricing Lower? Thanks for the links. I had read about the heat, which I thought was not supposed to be an issue on LEDs... Guess I am no longer ignorant on that. The higher output lights needed to illuminate aquariums. I am a bit of an amateur on that aspect. I talked to an electrician friend I work with and he has given me the technical advice I was seeking, similar to what the link Amber posted. I guess I was not very clear on the lighting , I was talking about, I was going to do accent lighting on the vegetation and structures in the tank. Like one does around the yard. Thanks for pointing me in a few directions to search though. For the main daylight I have my marine land one coming Friday care of the fed ex guy. I hope it lives up to expectations. If I get it to work out the way I want I will post some pics. Don't hold your breath. Might take me awhile to sort out what I am doing.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49907	From: haecklers	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Is it a feeder fish or a fancy one? Were there sick or dead fish in the tank with it when you bought them? When you look at the goldfish, does it have any little white spots on it like salt crystals? Do its fins look whole or are the edges frayed or missing? Does it look like it has black specks or gold dust on its skin? Is it breathing hard? 5 min. after you feed them, is there any food left in the tank? You said the other fish nipped at it, maybe it's just scared of the other fish. If it's one of those fancy-tailed ones they really can't swim very well, and are helplessly at the mercy of fin-nippers. Sometimes new fish just get scared of new surroundings. We recently got two feeder goldfish and they hid the first day and the next few days they hid whenever we approached the tank. Now they're starting to figure out people = feeding time and are getting friendlier. I don't know what's cuter than a little baby goldfish! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lara7712" <vandermerwe2@...> wrote: > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49908	From: k chen	Date: 1/5/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

it could be afraid and just need time to accumate to new tankmates. As long as other tankmates are goldfishes and similiar or same goldfish species should be ok. As long as the tank water parameters are ok, is ok. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: vandermerwe2@... Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:12:15 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Goldfish My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49909	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

The others have offered some good info for you, but I haven't seen anyone yet ask how big your tank is and how big the fish are? Also, how did you go about acclimating the fish when you brought them home? Are they both the same kind of goldfish? Comets and fancy goldfish should not be mixed in any size tank. I'm not sure where the info came from about 30 gallons per fish, but that is not accurate for goldfish, they grow too big and too fast. A healthy fancy goldfish will reach 6 - 9 inches within about the first 2 yrs and a healthy comet will reach 14+ inches within about the first 2 yrs. 30 gallons per fish would be a very temporary situation if the fish are under 3 inches to start with... The other question I'm wondering about is the decor in the tank? Sometimes pictures can help a lot rather than people trying to guess at how your tank is set up. Providing plenty of territory that is broken up for each fish to claim its own is important. The more decor there is the healthier the tank & fish will be. Oh, and almost forgot... what kind and size of filter are you using? Goldfish need tanks that are "over filtered" to keep them stable. Have you added air stones? Goldfish need extra aeration because they consume more oxygen than the average fish... and water temp? Warm water contains less oxygen. Goldfish do better in colder water. As far as water testing goes, Amber gave some great advice. To add to what she said, water chemistry is ever changing. Testing it on Monday will not tell you where its at on Wednesday... especially if there are fish in the tank. Water testing should also always be done before a water change, never directly after. The goal in water testing is to tell where the waste levels are at before you make any changes, thus you will have an accurate reading of how quickly the waste builds up, and will then know how much to change each time and how often it needs to be done. When taking water to a lfs for testing it should be done within less than 1 hr of removing the water from the tank to attain accurate results. Beyond an hour out of the tank the water chemistry will change drastically, leaving you with false test readings, which can be quite dangerous to the fish. The more details you can provide about your fish, tank, and situation, the easier it is to help you. Lack of information leaves us guessing, which also can be quite dangerous. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lara7712" <vandermerwe2@...> wrote: > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49910	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Fancy Goldfish can be kept (singly) in 30 gallons as long as the tank is properly cleaned and water is changed regularly, as for comets they require at least double that to start with and need a very large pond when they are full grown. I honestly do not keep goldfish (I don't care for them personally and think they are ugly myself, LOL), but I have followed quite a few posts about them from the other moderators and they've all recommended AT LEAST 30 gallons per fancy goldfish, if not more of course. So I didn't make up the number, I was just repeating what other mods have said. I also agree that water testing should occur often, especially in a newly set up tank as ammonia/nitrite/nitrates can quickly build to toxic levels, especially if the tank is too small for the occupants. We do need to know the size of the tank and type of goldfish, I thought I had mentioned it in my post but may have forgotten as I had a lot of info to give out for cycling a new tank. Hopefully we haven't overwhelmed with all the info, LOL. Amber On 1/6/2011 8:15 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > The others have offered some good info for you, but I haven't seen > anyone yet ask how big your tank is and how big the fish are? Also, > how did you go about acclimating the fish when you brought them home? > Are they both the same kind of goldfish? Comets and fancy goldfish > should not be mixed in any size tank. > > I'm not sure where the info came from about 30 gallons per fish, but > that is not accurate for goldfish, they grow too big and too fast. A > healthy fancy goldfish will reach 6 - 9 inches within about the first > 2 yrs and a healthy comet will reach 14+ inches within about the first > 2 yrs. 30 gallons per fish would be a very temporary situation if the > fish are under 3 inches to start with... > > The other question I'm wondering about is the decor in the tank? > Sometimes pictures can help a lot rather than people trying to guess > at how your tank is set up. Providing plenty of territory that is > broken up for each fish to claim its own is important. The more decor > there is the healthier the tank & fish will be. > > Oh, and almost forgot... what kind and size of filter are you using? > Goldfish need tanks that are "over filtered" to keep them stable. Have > you added air stones? Goldfish need extra aeration because they > consume more oxygen than the average fish... and water temp? Warm > water contains less oxygen. Goldfish do better in colder water. > > As far as water testing goes, Amber gave some great advice. To add to > what she said, water chemistry is ever changing. Testing it on Monday > will not tell you where its at on Wednesday... especially if there are > fish in the tank. Water testing should also always be done before a > water change, never directly after. The goal in water testing is to > tell where the waste levels are at before you make any changes, thus > you will have an accurate reading of how quickly the waste builds up, > and will then know how much to change each time and how often it needs > to be done. When taking water to a lfs for testing it should be done > within less than 1 hr of removing the water from the tank to attain > accurate results. Beyond an hour out of the tank the water chemistry > will change drastically, leaving you with false test readings, which > can be quite dangerous to the fish. > > The more details you can provide about your fish, tank, and situation, > the easier it is to help you. Lack of information leaves us guessing, > which also can be quite dangerous. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "lara7712" <vandermerwe2@...> > wrote: > > > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the > bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time > he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The > other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to > serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have > been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was > tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong > with the one hiding at the bottom? > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49911	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Dawn, If you do the math, that is what is required for a goldfish that is full grown, whether a round body or not. It is based on waste output. That number is actually a safe minimum. More gallons per fish is always welcome, no matter what the fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 12:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Goldfish The others have offered some good info for you, but I haven't seen anyone yet ask how big your tank is and how big the fish are? Also, how did you go about acclimating the fish when you brought them home? Are they both the same kind of goldfish? Comets and fancy goldfish should not be mixed in any size tank. I'm not sure where the info came from about 30 gallons per fish, but that is not accurate for goldfish, they grow too big and too fast. A healthy fancy goldfish will reach 6 - 9 inches within about the first 2 yrs and a healthy comet will reach 14+ inches within about the first 2 yrs. 30 gallons per fish would be a very temporary situation if the fish are under 3 inches to start with... The other question I'm wondering about is the decor in the tank? Sometimes pictures can help a lot rather than people trying to guess at how your tank is set up. Providing plenty of territory that is broken up for each fish to claim its own is important. The more decor there is the healthier the tank & fish will be. Oh, and almost forgot... what kind and size of filter are you using? Goldfish need tanks that are "over filtered" to keep them stable. Have you added air stones? Goldfish need extra aeration because they consume more oxygen than the average fish... and water temp? Warm water contains less oxygen. Goldfish do better in colder water. As far as water testing goes, Amber gave some great advice. To add to what she said, water chemistry is ever changing. Testing it on Monday will not tell you where its at on Wednesday... especially if there are fish in the tank. Water testing should also always be done before a water change, never directly after. The goal in water testing is to tell where the waste levels are at before you make any changes, thus you will have an accurate reading of how quickly the waste builds up, and will then know how much to change each time and how often it needs to be done. When taking water to a lfs for testing it should be done within less than 1 hr of removing the water from the tank to attain accurate results. Beyond an hour out of the tank the water chemistry will change drastically, leaving you with false test readings, which can be quite dangerous to the fish. The more details you can provide about your fish, tank, and situation, the easier it is to help you. Lack of information leaves us guessing, which also can be quite dangerous. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lara7712" <vandermerwe2@...> wrote: > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49912	From: allis64	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?

Hello! New member here. Please help me if you can. I have had fish for many years, but have recently come up with a situation I have never seen before. My guppy, platty and angelfish all are bloated in the abdomen. Other than that, they are fine. They swim well and have a normal appetite. It is not dropsy - I saw that once in a molly many years ago, it is horrid looking. It is not swim bladder - I saw that once too. These fish look fine except for the swelling. They look pregnant, but are males. It has gotton worse over the past month, but I stressed them when I moved the tank (I had to remove half the water and I replaced it with fresh.) My source water is always hard and I have a lot of phosphate in it, as usual. Other than that, It tests fine. I feed them TetraMin flakes, but I have relied on those since I was a kid (eons ago, I'm afraid). I can't tell if I am dealing with constipation or an infection. What should I do for them?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49913	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?

Do you feed freeze dried foods? If so that's usually the cause for bloating in fish, if you rehydrate it before feeding by soaking it in a cup of tank water for 30 seconds or so that should help the fish from getting bloated again. In the meantime try feeding them squished peas (warm them up in water in the microwave for maybe a minute at the most if it's frozen peas, then squish them with a fork and throw away the outer skin and feed the insides of the peas to your fish). It should help the constipation/bloating at least a little, if it doesn't help at all and the fish start to get lethargic and stop eating you may have to resort to more drastic measures (such as an Epsom salt bath, but try the squished peas first and let us know how it helps). Amber On 1/6/2011 5:18 PM, allis64 wrote: > > Hello! New member here. Please help me if you can. I have had fish for > many years, but have recently come up with a situation I have never > seen before. My guppy, platty and angelfish all are bloated in the > abdomen. Other than that, they are fine. They swim well and have a > normal appetite. It is not dropsy - I saw that once in a molly many > years ago, it is horrid looking. It is not swim bladder - I saw that > once too. These fish look fine except for the swelling. They look > pregnant, but are males. It has gotton worse over the past month, but > I stressed them when I moved the tank (I had to remove half the water > and I replaced it with fresh.) My source water is always hard and I > have a lot of phosphate in it, as usual. Other than that, It tests > fine. I feed them TetraMin flakes, but I have relied on those since I > was a kid (eons ago, I'm afraid). I can't tell if I am dealing with > constipation or an infection. What should I do for them? > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49914	From: TW A	Date: 1/6/2011
Subject: Re: LED Pricing Lower?

Distracted? With all the neat stuff there? Thanks Steve, will pull it together when I quit drooling over the fun stuff!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49915	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Marineland LED Bubble Wands

Hello and Happy new year everyone. I am thinking of adding the Marineland LED Bubble Wands http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19788 http://preview.tinyurl.com/24vns34 Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these? I am adding it to my 80gl tank measuring 25 x 36 x 18. Any suggestions as to how many I should use? I was thinking of one for each side and one for the back. Alex

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49916	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands

Those are cool! Have you seen the "volcanoes?" Similar concept. How many and where depends on how your tank is decorated. If you have HOB filters, you don't want a bubble wand under the intakes cos the bubbles make them gurgle very noisily. ~Kai > Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello and Happy new year everyone. > > I am thinking of adding the Marineland LED Bubble Wands > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19788 > http://preview.tinyurl.com/24vns34 > > Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these? > > I am adding it to my 80gl tank measuring 25 x 36 x 18. Any suggestions as to how many I should use? I was thinking of one for each side and one for the back. > > Alex >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49917	From: haecklers	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?

You can make a solution of epsom salt in aquarium water - use 1 level tablespoon of Epsom salt for 500 ml (about 2 cups) of water. Pour a little in a dish and soak their food in it for 3-5 min. prior to feeding. It acts as a gentle laxative by drawing water into their digestive system. The good thing about this treatment is if they've been gradually getting fatter it could be intestinal worms, and this treatment done for 3 days with 3 feedings a day often cures that as well! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "allis64" <allis64@...> wrote: > > Hello! New member here. Please help me if you can. I have had fish for many years, but have recently come up with a situation I have never seen before. My guppy, platty and angelfish all are bloated in the abdomen. Other than that, they are fine. They swim well and have a normal appetite. It is not dropsy - I saw that once in a molly many years ago, it is horrid looking. It is not swim bladder - I saw that once too. These fish look fine except for the swelling. They look pregnant, but are males. It has gotton worse over the past month, but I stressed them when I moved the tank (I had to remove half the water and I replaced it with fresh.) My source water is always hard and I have a lot of phosphate in it, as usual. Other than that, It tests fine. I feed them TetraMin flakes, but I have relied on those since I was a kid (eons ago, I'm afraid). I can't tell if I am dealing with constipation or an infection. What should I do for them? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49918	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands

I don't have that particular item, but I do have a light that bubbles (it's a small round LED submersible light that comes in a few different colors). I noticed that mine didn't last for very long, it no longer bubbles properly. I have to remove the whole unit from the tank then put it back to get it to start bubbling, then it stops after 15 minutes or so again. I ended up just removing it and putting it away somewhere. Keep in mind that if you're going to have more than a couple of those that each one will need it's own electrical outlet/plugin so make sure you have enough extra plugin spots on your outlet. I also found that the lighted bubbles scare most of my fish as well, so they always stayed away from it when it was bubbling, but each fish is different some fish like to play in the bubbles (such as Oscars). I wish they had some way of designing more things with less plugs. As it is I don't have enough plugs for all the electrical items that I have in all my tanks, and if I had them all in one room I'd DEFINITELY not have enough for all the tanks I have, LOL. I'm sure my house is a fire trap with all the fish tanks and cords all over. Amber On 1/7/2011 6:09 AM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello and Happy new year everyone. > > I am thinking of adding the Marineland LED Bubble Wands > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19788 > http://preview.tinyurl.com/24vns34 > > Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these? > > I am adding it to my 80gl tank measuring 25 x 36 x 18. Any suggestions > as to > how many I should use? I was thinking of one for each side and one for the > back. > > Alex > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49919	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

This is one subject we will just have to agree to disagree on. I have a fancy goldfish, full grown at 9 inches and as big around as a softball. To put him into a 30 gallon tank would kill him quickly. I put him into a 20 gallon once to get photos and show size issues, etc. for a post I was writing on a forum... and even with aeration and filtration, he was struggling after only 30 minutes, and no, it was not the stress that was the problem, Freddy is very social and handles moves and changes quite well... all of the water in that tank came from his 120, so there was no stress from immediate water chemistry changes. While I do agree that waste is the primary issue for space, an adult goldfish would overwhelm 30 gallon with waste even with every day cleanings. Goldfish, fancy, comet, koi, etc. all have extremely heavy levels of waste output, and they also require more oxygen than the average aquarium fish. Freddy's 120 gallon tank is already borderline too small for him... And then there are growth hormones that build quickly, which serve to stunt the fish. If caught soon enough, a stunted goldfish can still achieve a healthy adult size just by moving to a proper sized aquarium. What I see more often is goldfish that are stunted by putting them into those little 30 gallon tanks, thus people don't think they need bigger because the fish never reach adult size. Not only is this cruel, but it causes internal damage which can be permanent and greatly shorten the life of the fish. The store I used to work in kept a 90 gallon display tank with 1 - 2 half grown fancy goldfish for this reason. When a customer wanted to put a goldfish into 30 gallons we would walk them to the display and ask them "where are you going to put something this size in a tank that small?" We didn't need to do any convincing beyond that... the situation spoke for itself. In another instance I took a standard sized softball and taped some paper "fins" to it and held it into a 30 gallon tank and asked the same question.. "where is it supposed to go?" That also was quite effective. Putting a goldfish in a 30 gallon tank when it is beyond 3 inches in length is no better than putting an adult Great Dane into a small closet. It just shouldn't be done. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > If you do the math, that is what is required for a goldfish that is full > grown, whether a round body or not. It is based on waste output. That number > is actually a safe minimum. More gallons per fish is always welcome, no > matter what the fish. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 12:16 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Goldfish > > The others have offered some good info for you, but I haven't seen anyone > yet ask how big your tank is and how big the fish are? Also, how did you go > about acclimating the fish when you brought them home? Are they both the > same kind of goldfish? Comets and fancy goldfish should not be mixed in any > size tank. > > I'm not sure where the info came from about 30 gallons per fish, but that is > not accurate for goldfish, they grow too big and too fast. A healthy fancy > goldfish will reach 6 - 9 inches within about the first 2 yrs and a healthy > comet will reach 14+ inches within about the first 2 yrs. 30 gallons per > fish would be a very temporary situation if the fish are under 3 inches to > start with... > > The other question I'm wondering about is the decor in the tank? Sometimes > pictures can help a lot rather than people trying to guess at how your tank > is set up. Providing plenty of territory that is broken up for each fish to > claim its own is important. The more decor there is the healthier the tank > & fish will be. > > Oh, and almost forgot... what kind and size of filter are you using? > Goldfish need tanks that are "over filtered" to keep them stable. Have you > added air stones? Goldfish need extra aeration because they consume more > oxygen than the average fish... and water temp? Warm water contains less > oxygen. Goldfish do better in colder water. > > As far as water testing goes, Amber gave some great advice. To add to what > she said, water chemistry is ever changing. Testing it on Monday will not > tell you where its at on Wednesday... especially if there are fish in the > tank. Water testing should also always be done before a water change, never > directly after. The goal in water testing is to tell where the waste levels > are at before you make any changes, thus you will have an accurate reading > of how quickly the waste builds up, and will then know how much to change > each time and how often it needs to be done. When taking water to a lfs for > testing it should be done within less than 1 hr of removing the water from > the tank to attain accurate results. Beyond an hour out of the tank the > water chemistry will change drastically, leaving you with false test > readings, which can be quite dangerous to the fish. > > The more details you can provide about your fish, tank, and situation, the > easier it is to help you. Lack of information leaves us guessing, which > also can be quite dangerous. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lara7712" <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > My Goldfish has spent most of the day hiding behind a rock at the bottom > of the tank and only swam out ocassionally, during feeding time he got well > stuck in but soon after went back behind the rock. The other fellow in the > tank has given him a few nips but nothing to serious more like antagonising > him than full blown attack. They have been in the tank for 3 days and water > quality seems to be fine it was tested on monday it is now wednesday. Any > thoughts on what is wrong with the one hiding at the bottom? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49920	From: J M	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: CAFE Winter Auction Champaign IL

Hello Fellow Hobbyists, Champaign Area Fish Exchange Winter Auction will be held January 15, 2011 at the Urbana Civic Center 108 Water Street, Urbana, IL 61801. Doors open at 8am. Auction begins at 10:30am Fish, plants, food, equipment, books, etc may be offer for sale. For more information or to advance register as a seller contact Jerry 217-359-6707. Auction rules and sellers sheet can be found at http://www.champaignfish.com FAAS 10 table method will be used for auction items. Hope you can attend, Jerry Montgomery Champaign Area Fish Exchange

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49921	From: Tinus and Lara van der Merwe	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Hi Steve Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated Thank you Marthinus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49922	From: haecklers	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

It really sounds like you're being careful to do everything right. My only bit of advice is to change less of the water, make sure it's the same temp, and add the stress coat before you put it in the tank. Sometimes water straight from the tap can have dissolved gases in it from the pressure in the pipes, etc. I always age my water to let the gasses come out before adding it to the tanks, after seeing fish act sick after water changes. I have no idea how long it takes but I let it age for around 12 hours most times. I read well water can be super saturated with CO2, which changes the pH, then as the CO2 off-gasses, the pH changes again. Fluctuating pH can really stress the fish.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49923	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/7/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands

The only experience I have with them is looking at them in the catalog, and shaking my head. Do let me say, however, Marineland products have, in the past, been very good quality. You may want to try just one to start, and then get the others when you have a better idea of how well it works for you. When you do get the product, go over it carefully to ensure that all parts electrical are well sealed, with no cracks, even fine shallow ones. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Mejia Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 10:09 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Marineland LED Bubble Wands Hello and Happy new year everyone. I am thinking of adding the Marineland LED Bubble Wands http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19788 http://preview.tinyurl.com/24vns34 Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these? I am adding it to my 80gl tank measuring 25 x 36 x 18. Any suggestions as to how many I should use? I was thinking of one for each side and one for the back. Alex

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49924	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

When you next do a water change, and the conditioner prior to adding the water. The reaction with the chlor* product you have in your water will then be immediate, rather than exposing your fish to it, even for a short while until you add the product after the water change. If you are using bucket(s), then you could add it directly to the bucket. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tinus and Lara van der Merwe Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 6:45 AM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Goldfish Hi Steve Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated Thank you Marthinus

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49925	From: Ray	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Did everyone miss the size tank that was stated? 23 LITRES (= 6.08 GALLONS) -- for TWO Goldfish. That's barely enough water for two Guppies!!! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > When you next do a water change, and the conditioner prior to adding the > water. The reaction with the chlor* product you have in your water will then > be immediate, rather than exposing your fish to it, even for a short while > until you add the product after the water change. If you are using > bucket(s), then you could add it directly to the bucket. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Tinus and Lara van der Merwe > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 6:45 AM > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Goldfish > > > Hi Steve > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions > the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 > fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in > colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue > around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I > brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I > opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim > out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming > about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the > bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. > Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they > both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some > of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then > added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely > remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a > change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was > sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby > started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on > the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in > the water. > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time > they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back > behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white > spots or anything else amiss. > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from > sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am > keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in > order. > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of > please let me know it is very much appreciated > > Thank you > Marthinus >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49926	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@...> wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > Thank you > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49927	From: haecklers	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a 2-year-old). "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. We're older and wiser now. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > Thank you > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49928	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

I already asked if the tank had been cycled, the problem is an uncycled tank. Ammonia is building up to toxic levels very quickly in a tank that small, these fish will be lucky to make it through a week without daily water changes. Amber On 1/8/2011 9:50 AM, haecklers wrote: > > But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 > gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but > I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we > kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy > right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a > 2-year-old). > > "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. > We're older and wiser now. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe > <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to > respond to > > > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some > questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of > decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy > double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its > eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) > they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday > left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let > some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the > water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and > looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom > behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. > Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank > they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the > filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back > fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. > It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's > in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started > swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving > around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock > more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the > rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at > feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit > after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I > could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? > Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is > anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being > everything seems to be in order. > > > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can > think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > > > Thank you > > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49929	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Planted Tanks Exhibited in Art Gallery

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3519&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_7_2011&utm_term=The_next_dimension?&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/34hlpg9 The next dimension? Can aquascaping be taken to another level and considered an art form? The signs were there at a recent exhibition, as James Starr-Marshall explains. Watch the video and see what you think. For the first time in the UK, live and mature aquascapes have been displayed at an art gallery. The collection featured six exhibits created by PFK contributors George Farmer, Graeme Edwards and myself. Check out the video [need to visit site for video. Scs] below: The initial idea came while I was hanging pictures at my local arts centre, thinking how good the stark white walls of the gallery would look if adorned with high end, back-lit, Amano-style aquariums. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49930	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3520&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_7_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Sarcastic_fringehead&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3yw9dv6 Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead This week's featured species is Neoclinus blanchardi, commonly known as the Sarcastic fringehead. And if you think it's just the name that's weird, check out the amazing video below! The 'fringehead' part of its name is fairly self explanatory, as these fish have soft tissue tentacles on the front of their heads, but as for the sarcastic part, who knows? It seems unlikely that the fish uses harsh or bitter derision in its daily life off the East Pacific coast of California and Mexico, so perhaps the 'sarcastic' name comes from its aggressive territorial behaviour, sarcastic being another word for taunting? These feisty fish spend much of their time living inside old mollusc shells, clam burrows or any other structure that offers them a defensible outpost in their generally otherwise barren sea bed environment. This paucity of suitable homes has led to them becoming extremely territorial when they do find one, and to this end the fish has evolved a truly weird way of sorting out disputes. At first glance these small, (around 30cm/12") fish are rather non-descript, with little more than a couple of bright yellow marks on the side of their jaw to break the otherwise largely cryptic pattern of brown, black and white markings, but when faced with another fringehead interloper on its patch, it reveals a truly weird adaptation. Their upper jaw has loose joints where it would normally hinge with the lower, and a pivot between the two loose sections at the snout allows the fish to rapidly extend their large mouth outwards to form a triangular frill, edged with bright yellow. See this all in action below. [Video available on site, along with pictures] This bizarre display is used to measure up with other fringeheads as the two quarrelling fish first compared gapes, and then if unperturbed by the comparative size of each others' chops, a battle will ensue with each fish seeking to push the other back, while engulfing them with their mighty mouths. Females lay eggs inside the male's shell or burrow home which he guards with typical pugnaciousness until they hatch. Why not check out the other Weird fish of the week features? Tripod fish Lumpsucker Ocean sunfish Two-headed arowana Stargazers Giant oarfish Kroyer's deep sea anglerfish Halimeda ghost pipefish \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49931	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/8/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

The one inch per gallon rule does not work for full-bodied fish like goldfish. It only works (sort-of) for skinny one-inch fish like neon tetras. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 1:51 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Goldfish But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a 2-year-old). "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. We're older and wiser now. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > Thank you > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49932	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead

Hey Steve:    They're really neat little fish.  They kind of remind me of fancy Neolamprologus caudipunctatus or N. brevis.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, January 8, 2011 6:23:31 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead   http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3520&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_7_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Sarcastic_fringehead&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3yw9dv6 Weird fish of the week: Sarcastic fringehead This week's featured species is Neoclinus blanchardi, commonly known as the Sarcastic fringehead. And if you think it's just the name that's weird, check out the amazing video below! The 'fringehead' part of its name is fairly self explanatory, as these fish have soft tissue tentacles on the front of their heads, but as for the sarcastic part, who knows? It seems unlikely that the fish uses harsh or bitter derision in its daily life off the East Pacific coast of California and Mexico, so perhaps the 'sarcastic' name comes from its aggressive territorial behaviour, sarcastic being another word for taunting? These feisty fish spend much of their time living inside old mollusc shells, clam burrows or any other structure that offers them a defensible outpost in their generally otherwise barren sea bed environment. This paucity of suitable homes has led to them becoming extremely territorial when they do find one, and to this end the fish has evolved a truly weird way of sorting out disputes. At first glance these small, (around 30cm/12") fish are rather non-descript, with little more than a couple of bright yellow marks on the side of their jaw to break the otherwise largely cryptic pattern of brown, black and white markings, but when faced with another fringehead interloper on its patch, it reveals a truly weird adaptation. Their upper jaw has loose joints where it would normally hinge with the lower, and a pivot between the two loose sections at the snout allows the fish to rapidly extend their large mouth outwards to form a triangular frill, edged with bright yellow. See this all in action below. [Video available on site, along with pictures] This bizarre display is used to measure up with other fringeheads as the two quarrelling fish first compared gapes, and then if unperturbed by the comparative size of each others' chops, a battle will ensue with each fish seeking to push the other back, while engulfing them with their mighty mouths. Females lay eggs inside the male's shell or burrow home which he guards with typical pugnaciousness until they hatch. Why not check out the other Weird fish of the week features? Tripod fish Lumpsucker Ocean sunfish Two-headed arowana Stargazers Giant oarfish Kroyer's deep sea anglerfish Halimeda ghost pipefish \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49933	From: allis64	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Bloated fish - Not Dropsy. What should I do?

Thank You! I am going to try both the peas and the epsom salts. I am wondering now about the intestinal worms - that might explain why three unrelated fish all have the same thing. Also, I have two aquatic turtles - maybe my water bucket and siphon were contaminated with something? Turtles could carry lots of things. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > You can make a solution of epsom salt in aquarium water - use 1 level tablespoon of Epsom salt for 500 ml (about 2 cups) of water. Pour a little in a dish and soak their food in it for 3-5 min. prior to feeding. It acts as a gentle laxative by drawing water into their digestive system. > > The good thing about this treatment is if they've been gradually getting fatter it could be intestinal worms, and this treatment done for 3 days with 3 feedings a day often cures that as well! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "allis64" <allis64@> wrote: > > > > Hello! New member here. Please help me if you can. I have had fish for many years, but have recently come up with a situation I have never seen before. My guppy, platty and angelfish all are bloated in the abdomen. Other than that, they are fine. They swim well and have a normal appetite. It is not dropsy - I saw that once in a molly many years ago, it is horrid looking. It is not swim bladder - I saw that once too. These fish look fine except for the swelling. They look pregnant, but are males. It has gotton worse over the past month, but I stressed them when I moved the tank (I had to remove half the water and I replaced it with fresh.) My source water is always hard and I have a lot of phosphate in it, as usual. Other than that, It tests fine. I feed them TetraMin flakes, but I have relied on those since I was a kid (eons ago, I'm afraid). I can't tell if I am dealing with constipation or an infection. What should I do for them? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49934	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Think a minute about what you just said about the black moor... The fish lasted a year in a bowl before it died, but these fish have a lifespan average of 25 yrs when healthy and properly kept. That says it all! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a 2-year-old). > > "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. We're older and wiser now. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > > > Thank you > > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49935	From: haecklers	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

Point taken, and like I said, I've learned a lot since then. But if my fish could last a year in 1 gallon, then 2 very small (1") fish in 6 gallons being sick so soon could indicate a medical problem that needs to be treated before she loses them. If she got them as feeders there are a lot of things they could have going on, and acting fast could save their lives. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Think a minute about what you just said about the black moor... The fish lasted a year in a bowl before it died, but these fish have a lifespan average of 25 yrs when healthy and properly kept. That says it all! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a 2-year-old). > > > > "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. We're older and wiser now. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > > > > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49936	From: haecklers	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Danio fry quick advice??

I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the gunk that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> Just two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that was the second bucket of the water change. :( Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep it warm.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49937	From: upmaid15	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP

I'm so glad I found this group, hope someone can help me. I've had this 10 gal fresh water tank for a few years, and just lately it is getting so much ALGIE it is getting gross again. I had lost one of my fish about 2 weeks ago, all the other fish look healthy I only have 4 fish......WHAT SHOULD I DO???

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49938	From: harry perry	Date: 1/9/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP

Try This http://http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/algae/a/attackalgae.htm Harry --- On Sun, 1/9/11, upmaid15 <nancylowes@...> wrote: From: upmaid15 <nancylowes@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 9:17 PM   I'm so glad I found this group, hope someone can help me. I've had this 10 gal fresh water tank for a few years, and just lately it is getting so much ALGIE it is getting gross again. I had lost one of my fish about 2 weeks ago, all the other fish look healthy I only have 4 fish......WHAT SHOULD I DO??? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49939	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish

At this stage there are not specific enough symptoms to accurately diagnose the problem beyond the tank size and probable water quality issues and stress. To medicate without knowing for sure what to medicate for could prove more deadly than doing nothing right now. Improperly medicating any fish usually causes more harm than good... its not safe to just start with one med and go through a list of trial & error until something works. Another issue is the way medications can react to water quality issues... it can be a toxic mess. Most (not all) meds can have an adverse effect if there is any trace of ammonia, nitrite, or a high nitrate reading. Many meds also can deplete the water of oxygen. In this situation, oxygen content in the water will make a huge difference. In fish keeping, patience is vitally important. Goldfish are pretty sturdy fish and can often recover from mysterious illness just by providing a proper environment for them, clean water, and nutritious foods. In this case, providing a proper tank size/environment may be all it takes for the fish to recover from whatever they are dealing with. In regards to the comment about feeders... I have never heard of any lfs selling 1 - 2 inch fancy goldfish as feeders. Feeders typically come in the form of comets, guppies, and minnows... sometimes even livebearers. That doesn't mean the fish can't be sick with something... but at this stage, that is virtually impossible to tell. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Point taken, and like I said, I've learned a lot since then. > > But if my fish could last a year in 1 gallon, then 2 very small (1") fish in 6 gallons being sick so soon could indicate a medical problem that needs to be treated before she loses them. If she got them as feeders there are a lot of things they could have going on, and acting fast could save their lives. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Think a minute about what you just said about the black moor... The fish lasted a year in a bowl before it died, but these fish have a lifespan average of 25 yrs when healthy and properly kept. That says it all! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > But she said they're 1 inch long each, right? So that's still 3 gallons per small fish. Not a good home for much into the future, but I don't see why they should be suffering already. Way back when, we kept a black moor in a 1 gallon tank for a year. He stayed healthy right up 'til the end when he died of being overfed (pet for a 2-year-old). > > > > > > "Sorry" to those here who love goldfish, but that was a long time ago. We're older and wiser now. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > It is very likely the 6.076 gallon tank that is causing the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Tinus and Lara van der Merwe <vandermerwe2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for all that info its allot to take in and to respond to > > > > > > > > > > I think that my worry was unwarranted. I will try to answer some questions the tank holds 23lt of water and there are allot of decorations including 3 fake plants. The fish are both the same fancy double tail almost silver in colour one with red around the top of its eyes(jack) and the other with blue around the top of his eyes(Dobby) they are both about an inch in length. I brought them home on Monday left them afloat in the tank for 30min before I opened the bag to let some water from the tank in the bag and let them swim out with the water from the bag running into the tank. They were swimming about and looking fine till Wednesday when Dobby started hiding at the bottom behind the rock. Jack was still swimming around his usual self. Thursday morning I chopped 2 peas very fine and put them in the tank they both got stuck in like sharks in a feeding frenzy. > > > > > > > > > > Shortly after I took out around 25% of the water cleaned the filter in some of the water I took out the tank slowly poured back fresh water and then added some API stress+ coat as water conditioner. It claims to completely remove chlorine,chloramines & ammonia that's in the water. I then saw a change in their behaviour Dobby started swimming out a bit more and Jack was sitting on the bottom not moving around much, as the day went by Dobby started returning to his rock more and more and Jack was just chilling on the opposite side of the rock. I think its the stress remover I've put in the water. > > > > > > > > > > Today however Jack is very busy and Dobby behind his rock at feeding time they turned into sharks again Dobby swam around a bit after but is back behind his rock. I checked him out wile feeding I could not see any white spots or anything else amiss. > > > > > > > > > > I am wondering if Dobby is perhaps a girl and is trying to spawn? Apart from sitting behind the rock it doesn't seem like there is anything wrong. I am keeping a keen eye on them but for the time being everything seems to be in order. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for the info if there is anything else you can think of please let me know it is very much appreciated > > > > > > > > > > Thank you > > > > > Marthinus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49940	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP

The trick with resolving algae problems is to identify what is causing the problem/feeding the algae. To offer suggestions without enough info would be irresponsible, so I'm going to go through a string of questions we need to know to offer you some useful advice. What species of fish are in the tank? How big are they? What foods are you offering them? How long does it take them to completely finish all food you offer each time? How often are you doing water changes? gravel vacs? How much water each time? Can you please post test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH,? What type of algae are you dealing with? (hair algae, slime algae, etc) What type of filter are you using? What media is in it? How often do you clean the media? (please explain the method you use for cleaning filter media) Water temp? Type of substrate in the tank? How much decor? How long has the tank been set up? What methods have you used in the past, if any, that helped to clear up the problem? Sorry if that seems like a lot of info to ask for, but it all makes a huge difference in determining the problem and will also help us to offer you a safe and effective way to fix it. The more info you can provide the faster we can help. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "upmaid15" <nancylowes@...> wrote: > > I'm so glad I found this group, hope someone can help me. > > I've had this 10 gal fresh water tank for a few years, and just lately it is getting so much ALGIE it is getting gross again. I had lost one of my fish about 2 weeks ago, all the other fish look healthy I only have 4 fish......WHAT SHOULD I DO??? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49941	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP

and maybe one last question?   How many times a day do you fed these fish?   Bill --- On Mon, 1/10/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 12:36 PM The trick with resolving algae problems is to identify what is causing the problem/feeding the algae.  To offer suggestions without enough info would be irresponsible, so I'm going to go through a string of questions we need to know to offer you some useful advice. What species of fish are in the tank? How big are they?  What foods are you offering them?  How long does it take them to completely finish all food you offer each time?  How often are you doing water changes? gravel vacs?  How much water each time?  Can you please post test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH,?  What type of algae are you dealing with?  (hair algae, slime algae, etc)  What type of filter are you using?  What media is in it?  How often do you clean the media?  (please explain the method you use for cleaning filter media) Water temp? Type of substrate in the tank?  How much decor? How long has the tank been set up? What methods have you used in the past, if any, that helped to clear up the problem? Sorry if that seems like a lot of info to ask for, but it all makes a huge difference in determining the problem and will also help us to offer you a safe and effective way to fix it. The more info you can provide the faster we can help. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "upmaid15" <nancylowes@...> wrote: > > I'm so glad I found this group, hope someone can help me. > > I've had this 10 gal fresh water tank for a few years, and just lately it is getting so much ALGIE it is getting gross again. I had lost one of my fish about 2 weeks ago, all the other fish look healthy I only have 4 fish......WHAT SHOULD I DO??? > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49942	From: allis64	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the gunk that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> Just two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that was the second bucket of the water change. :( > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep it warm. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49943	From: horserider283	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: top dwelling fish

hi i just got a ten gallon tank today and can't find any good top dwelling fish help.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49944	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't find any good for photos top dwellers. ________________________________ From: allis64 <allis64@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the gunk >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> Just >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that was >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep it >warm. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49945	From: William M	Date: 1/10/2011
Subject: Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP

One more thing t think about, how long do you leave the light on for and how many (and what kinds of live plants if any) do you have in the tank. Also is it near a window so that it gets lots of light besides the light on the tank? How old is the light bulb and what size is it? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > and maybe one last question? >   > How many times a day do you fed these fish? >   > Bill > > --- On Mon, 1/10/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: 10 GAL FRESH WATER TANK WITH ALGIE PROBLEM HELP > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 10, 2011, 12:36 PM > > > The trick with resolving algae problems is to identify what is causing the problem/feeding the algae.  To offer suggestions without enough info would be irresponsible, so I'm going to go through a string of questions we need to know to offer you some useful advice. > > What species of fish are in the tank? > How big are they?  What foods are you offering them?  > How long does it take them to completely finish all food you offer each time?  > How often are you doing water changes? gravel vacs?  > How much water each time?  > Can you please post test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH,?  What type of algae are you dealing with?  (hair algae, slime algae, etc)  > What type of filter are you using?  > What media is in it?  How often do you clean the media?  (please explain the method you use for cleaning filter media) > Water temp? > Type of substrate in the tank?  How much decor? > How long has the tank been set up? > What methods have you used in the past, if any, that helped to clear up the problem? > > Sorry if that seems like a lot of info to ask for, but it all makes a huge difference in determining the problem and will also help us to offer you a safe and effective way to fix it. > > The more info you can provide the faster we can help. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "upmaid15" <nancylowes@> wrote: > > > > I'm so glad I found this group, hope someone can help me. > > > > I've had this 10 gal fresh water tank for a few years, and just lately it is getting so much ALGIE it is getting gross again. I had lost one of my fish about 2 weeks ago, all the other fish look healthy I only have 4 fish......WHAT SHOULD I DO??? > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49946	From: Noura	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Cichlid sudden death

Hi, Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I found one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This Cichlid held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" Lab. I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. Any idea what could have caused its death? Noura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49947	From: haecklers	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of them like the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent suicide. Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast swimming can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a cichlid tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore them as long as they stay away from the rock caves. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't find any good > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the gunk > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> Just > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that was > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep it > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49948	From: haecklers	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

Some internal parasites cause irritation at the vent. I'm thinking of camallanus in particular, which also causes them to look bloated or full. If it had parasites, it could have had them since you bought it, probably not much you could have done without knowing they were there. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I found > one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, > its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This Cichlid > held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed > that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" Lab. > I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see > all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. > > The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. > > > > Any idea what could have caused its death? > > > > Noura > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49949	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 balloon bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of them like the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent suicide. Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast swimming can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a cichlid tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore them as long as they stay away from the rock caves. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't find any good > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the >gunk > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> >Just > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that >was > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep >it > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49950	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

Hi Emma, What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let us know if you can about the suckerfish. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 balloon bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of them like the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent suicide. Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast swimming can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a cichlid tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore them as long as they stay away from the rock caves. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't find any good > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the >gunk > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> >Just > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that >was > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep >it > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49951	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/11/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already too full to add more fish. Amber On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > balloon > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > them like > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > suicide. > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > swimming > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > cichlid > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > them as > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > find any good > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > rosy barb > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > bucket. I > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > think I > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > correctly. If you > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > there own, > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > you know how > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > save the > >gunk > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > front of me > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > filled with > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > laying eggs > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > can raise > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > <<GASP!>> > >Just > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > but that > >was > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > and have all > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > (floating) to keep > >it > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49952	From: haecklers	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the long fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful with lots of personality!) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > too full to add more fish. > > Amber > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > rosy barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > you know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > and have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49953	From: Noura	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

Thank you. Anything that I can do to save the remaining 3 cichlids in case the parasite is still in there? Note: I bought these Labs together about 6 months ago, from the same pet shop tank. Noura <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49948;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHJpY2 JpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT Q4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTQ4MzE2Mzc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death Posted by: "haecklers" <mailto:haecklers@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20death> haecklers@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/haecklers> haecklers Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:45 am (PST) Some internal parasites cause irritation at the vent. I'm thinking of camallanus in particular, which also causes them to look bloated or full. If it had parasites, it could have had them since you bought it, probably not much you could have done without knowing they were there. --- In <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I found > one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, > its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This Cichlid > held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed > that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" Lab. > I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see > all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. > > The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. > > > > Any idea what could have caused its death? > > > > Noura > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49954	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Black Moor Goldfish

Asking for a friend: How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49955	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

It would be more than enough for 1 black moor, putting 2 in it would probably work okay, but they might dirty up the tank often and it will most likely need more cleanings/water changes than just once a week. The ones that grow to 10" probably had big tanks with lots of fresh water. Amber On 1/12/2011 8:11 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Asking for a friend: > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can > grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many > inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > ~Kai > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49956	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:11:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish Asking for a friend: How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49957	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail fins. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the long fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful with lots of personality!) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > too full to add more fish. > > Amber > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > rosy barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > you know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > and have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49958	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi it will be a dwarfpelco i don't have the tank set up yet what about the catfish i have heard they don't do a very good job? ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:01:30 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? Hi Emma, What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let us know if you can about the suckerfish. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 balloon bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of them like the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent suicide. Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast swimming can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a cichlid tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore them as long as they stay away from the rock caves. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't find any good > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy barb > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change bucket. I > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I think I > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember correctly. If you > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of there own, > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you know how > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to save the >gunk > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in front of me > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's filled with > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, laying eggs > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I can raise > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! <<GASP!>> >Just > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, but that >was > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and have all > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry (floating) to keep >it > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49959	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi i don't have any fish in the tank yet i am setting it up Saturday. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 9:15:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already too full to add more fish. Amber On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > balloon > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > them like > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > suicide. > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > swimming > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > cichlid > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > them as > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > find any good > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: allis64 <allis64@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > rosy barb > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > bucket. I > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > think I > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > correctly. If you > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > there own, > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > you know how > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > save the > >gunk > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > front of me > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > filled with > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > laying eggs > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > can raise > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > <<GASP!>> > >Just > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > but that > >was > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > and have all > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > (floating) to keep > >it > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49960	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Thanks! :o) ~Kai > Bren wrote: > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kai > > Asking for a friend: > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49961	From: k chen	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

totally agree with the 10 gallon rule and from my personal experience also depends on your filter's bio-filtering capability. Goldfish require a lot of bio-filtering, ie.healthy bacterials. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: safirezprincess@... Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:31:14 +0000 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:11:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish Asking for a friend: How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49962	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. Amber On 1/12/2011 9:21 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Thanks! :o) > ~Kai > > > Bren wrote: > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 > gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water > changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What > a nice friend you are! > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Kai > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some > can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how > many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > ~Kai > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49963	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

There are so many things that could have happened, there is really no way to know for sure without a necropsy. Parasites as were mentioned are only 1 of many possibilities. It could also be as simple as the fish having ingested gravel unintentionally and it got stuck in the digestive tract... that has been known to happen in fish who move gravel via their mouths. Bacteria, physical deformity (internal), stress, problem with organ function, etc... all possibilities alone or in combination to each other. One thing to note, if you are worried about parasites, typically if 1 fish is infected then its likely other fish are infected (especially those of the same species)so you may want to keep your eye on the others for a while just in case. Sorry for your loss.... --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I found > one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, > its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This Cichlid > held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed > that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" Lab. > I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see > all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. > > The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. > > > > Any idea what could have caused its death? > > > > Noura > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49964	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

I have to agree with Amber... unless you are planning a larger tank, there is no room for more fish in the current tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > too full to add more fish. > > Amber > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > rosy barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > you know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > and have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49965	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. ~Kai > Amber Berglund wrote: > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > Amber > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > ~Kai > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Kai > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > ~Kai > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49966	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

I thought it was 30G per goldfish? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of k chen Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:19 PM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish totally agree with the 10 gallon rule and from my personal experience also depends on your filter's bio-filtering capability. Goldfish require a lot of bio-filtering, ie.healthy bacterials. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> From: safirezprincess@... <mailto:safirezprincess%40yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:31:14 +0000 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:11:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish Asking for a friend: How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49967	From: haecklers	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

I think oto's are supposed to do a pretty good job but if they run out of algae they can starve if you don't give them zucchini or something - they often won't eat fish food. Those are called catfish but I don't see the resemblance. We have 7 cory catfish and they stir up the sand on the bottom of the tank so the water always looks cloudy. It would probably help if the tank weren't overcrowded, tho! LOL! If by dwarf pleco you mean ancistrus, they are awesome fish. The albino ones only get to around 3.5". They keep the tank and walls really clean and will eat algae wafers when they run out of algae (you're supposed to feed them some anyways, but it's a balance!) I've had male and female bettas in with my guppies and they haven't bitten the guppy tails, the largest guppy has bitten my betta female, tho, in fights over food (guppies get really vicious around algae wafers!). Bettas have different personalities, I guess it depends on the one you pick. Sometimes the bettas start out kind of chasing the other fish but when they figure out the fish are too big to eat and are not bettas, they then leave them alone. That can take a couple of days. With guppies, tho the bettas will eat any fry they give birth to and get really fat. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi it will be a dwarfpelco i don't have the tank set up yet what about the > catfish i have heard they don't do a very good job? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:01:30 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > Hi Emma, > > What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a > plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the > most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not > handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. > > I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. > > You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let > us know if you can about the suckerfish. > > -Mike G > > -----Original Message----- > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > balloon > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > them like > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > suicide. > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > swimming > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > cichlid > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > them as > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > wrote: > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > find any good > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy > barb > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > bucket. I > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > think I > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > correctly. If you > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > there own, > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you > know how > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > save the > >gunk > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > front of me > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > filled with > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > laying eggs > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > can raise > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > <<GASP!>> > >Just > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > but that > >was > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and > have all > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > (floating) to keep > >it > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49968	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

What Dawn said is true, but I will add the most common cause of death in my cichlid tanks. Stress causes bloat which kills the fish. I believe the tank these labs are in is on the small side? So that could be causing stress. The bloat organism is believed to be in all our tanks all the time. The fish become susceptible when stressed. Once one fish dies of it the tank could be infected. But the rest of the fish could seem perfectly healthy, with no additional deaths for several weeks. And several weeks after that, etc. You don’t have all the symptoms of bloat however. The fish that died had the vent enlargement. But he ate two hours before he died and no missing scales, fins, dull color. No hiding of any kind or lurking under the surface or behind filter intakes or heaters. No thin, white-clear thready poop. Remember, this would only be the one that died. Typical for the rest to seem perfectly healthy. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 1:51 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid sudden death There are so many things that could have happened, there is really no way to know for sure without a necropsy. Parasites as were mentioned are only 1 of many possibilities. It could also be as simple as the fish having ingested gravel unintentionally and it got stuck in the digestive tract... that has been known to happen in fish who move gravel via their mouths. Bacteria, physical deformity (internal), stress, problem with organ function, etc... all possibilities alone or in combination to each other. One thing to note, if you are worried about parasites, typically if 1 fish is infected then its likely other fish are infected (especially those of the same species)so you may want to keep your eye on the others for a while just in case. Sorry for your loss.... --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I found > one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, > its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This Cichlid > held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed > that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" Lab. > I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see > all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. > > The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. > > > > Any idea what could have caused its death? > > > > Noura > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49969	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Kai, Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > ~Kai > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > Bren > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > ~Kai > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49970	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

I'm not sure where Guppies enter into this picture (I don't recall seeing them mentioned in this thread), but your Dad is quite correct in that male Bettas have the momentary propensity to aggressively go after other long-finned fish such as fancy Guppies, possibly as they tend to see them, at least superficially, as another of their kind. Fancy Guppies are slow swimmers, shimmering their tails in a series of jerks -- like waving red red cape in front of a bull (LOL). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail > fins. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can > be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish > with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the long > fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful with > lots of personality!) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > > too full to add more fish. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > > balloon > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > them like > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > suicide. > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > swimming > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > cichlid > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > > them as > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > find any good > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > rosy barb > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > bucket. I > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > > think I > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > correctly. If you > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > there own, > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > you know how > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > save the > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > front of me > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > filled with > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > laying eggs > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > > can raise > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > <<GASP!>> > > > >Just > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > > but that > > > >was > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > and have all > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > (floating) to keep > > > >it > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49971	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Thanks everyone, especially Ray for such a comprehensive answer. I'll let him know. I think he's going to be disappointed that 2 is the max. Let's see what he decides to do... ~Kai > > Ray wrote: > > Kai, > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > Bren > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49972	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

Noura, Dawn and Donna make good points. While there is the possibility that the cause of death was due to a parasite, I was not convinced of this from the start when there are so many other possible causes. There's nothing here that proves to me it was a parasite. Of course, you want to watch your fish more closely for this potential, but in addition to what the others suggest, I'm wondering what you're feeding them. While your Yellow Labs are insectivores, rather than strictly algae grazers feeding on aufwuchs, like any other Mbuna their diet should not be too rich in protein. Sorry to hear about this loss. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > > Thank you. Anything that I can do to save the remaining 3 cichlids in case > the parasite is still in there? > > > Note: I bought these Labs together about 6 months ago, from the same pet > shop tank. > > > > > > Noura > > > > > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49948;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHJpY2 > JpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT > Q4BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTQ4MzE2Mzc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death > > > > Posted by: "haecklers" > <mailto:haecklers@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20death> > haecklers@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/haecklers> haecklers > > > Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:45 am (PST) > > > > > Some internal parasites cause irritation at the vent. I'm thinking of > camallanus in particular, which also causes them to look bloated or full. > > If it had parasites, it could have had them since you bought it, probably > not much you could have done without knowing they were there. > > --- In <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "Noura" <n-taweel@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Two hours after feeding my seemingly perfectly healthy Yellow Labs, I > found > > one of them dead at the bottom, turned upside down. When I checked it out, > > its mouth was half full of fine gravel, about 10 or 15 grains. This > Cichlid > > held the habbit of digging the gravel every now and then, I also noticed > > that its genital or anal vent was larger than it should be. It was a 3" > Lab. > > I looked inside the mouth after shaking the gravel out, I was able to see > > all the way back for about 1.5" without any signs of blood or swelling. > > > > The other Labs are healthy, eating , swimming, and fighting normally. > > > > > > > > Any idea what could have caused its death? > > > > > > > > Noura > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49973	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

I have several tanks with male bettas and fancy guppies. I have seen a female guppy nipping the betta's fins, and a platy picking on a betta, but have no problems with the bettas going after the other guys. They will eat the babies though. I am not saying that bettas won't go after guppies, but just that mine don't. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 4:54:30 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? I'm not sure where Guppies enter into this picture (I don't recall seeing them mentioned in this thread), but your Dad is quite correct in that male Bettas have the momentary propensity to aggressively go after other long-finned fish such as fancy Guppies, possibly as they tend to see them, at least superficially, as another of their kind. Fancy Guppies are slow swimmers, shimmering their tails in a series of jerks -- like waving red red cape in front of a bull (LOL). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail > fins. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can > > be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish > with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the >long > > fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful >with > > lots of personality!) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > > too full to add more fish. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > > balloon > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > them like > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > suicide. > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > swimming > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > cichlid > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > > them as > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > find any good > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > rosy barb > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > bucket. I > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > > think I > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > correctly. If you > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > there own, > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > you know how > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > save the > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > front of me > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > filled with > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > laying eggs > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > > can raise > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > <<GASP!>> > > > >Just > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > > but that > > > >was > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > and have all > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > (floating) to keep > > > >it > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49974	From: Ray	Date: 1/12/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

Hi Laurie, While Bettas aren't the fastest moving fish, even if they can swim faster than male Guppies, what you say is quite possible. Female Guppies and also platies, are as inquisitive as any other fish, and while male Bettas generally aren't fast swimmers they are usually outrun by these faster fish you mention. Platies and female Guppies can run circles around a male Betta if they want to. Most fish will behave slightly different from the next. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > I have several tanks with male bettas and fancy guppies. I have seen a female > guppy nipping the betta's fins, and a platy picking on a betta, but have no > problems with the bettas going after the other guys. They will eat the babies > though. > > I am not saying that bettas won't go after guppies, but just that mine don't. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 4:54:30 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > I'm not sure where Guppies enter into this picture (I don't recall seeing them > mentioned in this thread), but your Dad is quite correct in that male Bettas > have the momentary propensity to aggressively go after other long-finned fish > such as fancy Guppies, possibly as they tend to see them, at least > superficially, as another of their kind. Fancy Guppies are slow swimmers, > shimmering their tails in a series of jerks -- like waving red red cape in front > of a bull (LOL). > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail > > fins. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can > > > > be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish > > with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the > >long > > > > fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful > >with > > > > lots of personality!) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > > > too full to add more fish. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > > > balloon > > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > > them like > > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > > suicide. > > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > > swimming > > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > > cichlid > > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > > > them as > > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > > find any good > > > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > > rosy barb > > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > > bucket. I > > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > > > think I > > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > > correctly. If you > > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > > there own, > > > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > > you know how > > > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > > save the > > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > > front of me > > > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > > filled with > > > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > > laying eggs > > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > > > can raise > > > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > > <<GASP!>> > > > > >Just > > > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > > > but that > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > > and have all > > > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > > (floating) to keep > > > > >it > > > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49975	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Kai, The general rule is at least 30 gallons of water per goldfish with a few exceptions for certain varieties that require more. If your friend is religious about water quality, and does water changes on a regular schedule, and more often when needed, has more than adequate filtration, two may be kept in a 55 gallon with little or no side effects. Two 2" fish will make the tank look empty, but two 6"+ moors will make the tank start to look crowded. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kuradi8 Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:11 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish Asking for a friend: How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49976	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

So then what are your feelings about starting out with more fish then selling them off as they get crowded, keeping the best/most favorite ones when they finally grow to full-size? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > The general rule is at least 30 gallons of water per goldfish with a few > exceptions for certain varieties that require more. > > If your friend is religious about water quality, and does water changes on a > regular schedule, and more often when needed, has more than adequate > filtration, two may be kept in a 55 gallon with little or no side effects. > > Two 2" fish will make the tank look empty, but two 6"+ moors will make the > tank start to look crowded. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of kuradi8 > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:11 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Black Moor Goldfish > > Asking for a friend: > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow > to 10" and live 25 years. > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many > inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49977	From: Noura	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

Nothing seemed wrong with the dead fish when I examined it, except for that vent and the fact that it was� well.. Dead! Before that it was active and busy digging and moving gravel under a clay pot. It's a 34G housing only those four Yellow Labs (3" and 2") The remaining 3 Labs seem totally fine digging more than ever and begging for food as usual when they see me close. I'm feeding : Cichlid Flake (30$% Protein) contains spirulina and enriched with vitamins � one meal every 2 days Cucomber chunks and letuce (about 4 days aweek) ----� They adore these. High Protein sinking sticks (they grab them before the sticks reach the buttom) � about one meal aday Basic flake food � for all tropical fish � 38% Protein �.. Occasionally I also have Tubifex worms and Blood Worms , Both which I DON'T feed to the cichlids. Using some of these types of food, could you please make a feeding program that suits my cichlids best? Thanks! Noura <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49972;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHVzYT JrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT cyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTQ5MTc3Mzc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death Posted by: "Ray" <mailto:sevenspringss@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20de ath> sevenspringss@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/sevenspringss> sevenspringss Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:13 pm (PST) Noura, Dawn and Donna make good points. While there is the possibility that the cause of death was due to a parasite, I was not convinced of this from the start when there are so many other possible causes. There's nothing here that proves to me it was a parasite. Of course, you want to watch your fish more closely for this potential, but in addition to what the others suggest, I'm wondering what you're feeding them. While your Yellow Labs are insectivores, rather than strictly algae grazers feeding on aufwuchs, like any other Mbuna their diet should not be too rich in protein. Sorry to hear about this loss. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49978	From: judith	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: sick bolivian ram

I have a 26 gal tank with 5 bolivian rams. The parents and 3 babies from the last spawn. Also there is a rubber lip plecostamus, 2 orange tetras, 2 gold colored fish and a small algae eater of some kind. These last 3 fish were freebies and I have had them a long time. The algae eater for 2 years and the other two for 6 months. My male ram has been hanging out away from the other fish and looks bad kind of ragged. All the other fish look great and are acting normal. He has been this way going on three weeks. I have added salt and did extra water changes. Today I noticed a chunk missing out of his dorsal fin about half way back. Are the other fish picking on him? how did that chunk come missing? Should I take him out and put him in a tank by himself? Will this stress him further? Also I am going to try and change my tank up a bit, give the fish more hididng spots. I have a hard time with live plants so am going to use artificial for now until I can do more research on growing aquatic plants. Will this be stressful or helpful to the fish. Also I have hair algae that showed up when I tried live plants. I thought I had gotten rid of it but its back. Could this tell me something is wrong and is a clue to what is wrong with my ram? I am going out tomorrow and buying a test kit. My strips are gone and I was told on this group to get the kit. Is my tank crowded you think with the fish in there now? I have a twenty gal with 3 comets in there and they are going out in a pond this spring, they are growing fast. Should I put the two gold colored fish in with them? Which will ease the load on the 26 gal? These fish are about 1.5 inches at the most. I was told they eat algae. But this hadn't happened! I read somewhere that the less substrate you have the cleaner the tank is. I have a plant substrate mixed with my gravel when I tried plants. So now ther is about 2 to 2.5 inches of substrate. Will it hurt to remove about half of this? Thanks Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49979	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Kai, > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > Bren > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49980	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi i was wondering how about a male swordtail? ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 9:05:41 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? Hi Laurie, While Bettas aren't the fastest moving fish, even if they can swim faster than male Guppies, what you say is quite possible. Female Guppies and also platies, are as inquisitive as any other fish, and while male Bettas generally aren't fast swimmers they are usually outrun by these faster fish you mention. Platies and female Guppies can run circles around a male Betta if they want to. Most fish will behave slightly different from the next. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > I have several tanks with male bettas and fancy guppies. I have seen a female > guppy nipping the betta's fins, and a platy picking on a betta, but have no > problems with the bettas going after the other guys. They will eat the babies > though. > > I am not saying that bettas won't go after guppies, but just that mine don't. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 4:54:30 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > I'm not sure where Guppies enter into this picture (I don't recall seeing them > mentioned in this thread), but your Dad is quite correct in that male Bettas > have the momentary propensity to aggressively go after other long-finned fish > such as fancy Guppies, possibly as they tend to see them, at least > superficially, as another of their kind. Fancy Guppies are slow swimmers, > shimmering their tails in a series of jerks -- like waving red red cape in >front > > of a bull (LOL). > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail > > > fins. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they >can > > > > > be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish > > with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the > >long > > > > fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful > >with > > > > lots of personality!) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > > > too full to add more fish. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > > > balloon > > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > > them like > > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > > suicide. > > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > > swimming > > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > > cichlid > > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > > > them as > > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > > find any good > > > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > > rosy barb > > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > > bucket. I > > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > > > think I > > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > > correctly. If you > > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > > there own, > > > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > > you know how > > > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > > save the > > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > > front of me > > > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > > filled with > > > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > > laying eggs > > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > > > can raise > > > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > > <<GASP!>> > > > > >Just > > > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > > > but that > > > > >was > > > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > > and have all > > > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > > (floating) to keep > > > > >it > > > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >-> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49981	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

hi when and where did you get the fish? ----- Original Message ---- From: Noura <n-taweel@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 7:20:41 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid sudden death Nothing seemed wrong with the dead fish when I examined it, except for that vent and the fact that it was… well.. Dead! Before that it was active and busy digging and moving gravel under a clay pot. It's a 34G housing only those four Yellow Labs (3" and 2") The remaining 3 Labs seem totally fine digging more than ever and begging for food as usual when they see me close. I'm feeding : Cichlid Flake (30$% Protein) contains spirulina and enriched with vitamins – one meal every 2 days Cucomber chunks and letuce (about 4 days aweek) ----à They adore these. High Protein sinking sticks (they grab them before the sticks reach the buttom) – about one meal aday Basic flake food – for all tropical fish – 38% Protein ….. Occasionally I also have Tubifex worms and Blood Worms , Both which I DON'T feed to the cichlids. Using some of these types of food, could you please make a feeding program that suits my cichlids best? Thanks! Noura <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49972;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHVzYT JrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT cyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTQ5MTc3Mzc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death Posted by: "Ray" <mailto:sevenspringss@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20de ath> sevenspringss@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/sevenspringss> sevenspringss Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:13 pm (PST) Noura, Dawn and Donna make good points. While there is the possibility that the cause of death was due to a parasite, I was not convinced of this from the start when there are so many other possible causes. There's nothing here that proves to me it was a parasite. Of course, you want to watch your fish more closely for this potential, but in addition to what the others suggest, I'm wondering what you're feeding them. While your Yellow Labs are insectivores, rather than strictly algae grazers feeding on aufwuchs, like any other Mbuna their diet should not be too rich in protein. Sorry to hear about this loss. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49982	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

i don't have any fish in the tank yet i am setting it up saturday. ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:54:02 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? I have to agree with Amber... unless you are planning a larger tank, there is no room for more fish in the current tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > too full to add more fish. > > Amber > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > rosy barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > you know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > and have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49983	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi i can't really decided what to get i am buying from petco so i will probiley get some male guppies. but i don't know what else got any ideas? ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:24:25 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? I think oto's are supposed to do a pretty good job but if they run out of algae they can starve if you don't give them zucchini or something - they often won't eat fish food. Those are called catfish but I don't see the resemblance. We have 7 cory catfish and they stir up the sand on the bottom of the tank so the water always looks cloudy. It would probably help if the tank weren't overcrowded, tho! LOL! If by dwarf pleco you mean ancistrus, they are awesome fish. The albino ones only get to around 3.5". They keep the tank and walls really clean and will eat algae wafers when they run out of algae (you're supposed to feed them some anyways, but it's a balance!) I've had male and female bettas in with my guppies and they haven't bitten the guppy tails, the largest guppy has bitten my betta female, tho, in fights over food (guppies get really vicious around algae wafers!). Bettas have different personalities, I guess it depends on the one you pick. Sometimes the bettas start out kind of chasing the other fish but when they figure out the fish are too big to eat and are not bettas, they then leave them alone. That can take a couple of days. With guppies, tho the bettas will eat any fry they give birth to and get really fat. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi it will be a dwarfpelco i don't have the tank set up yet what about the > catfish i have heard they don't do a very good job? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:01:30 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > Hi Emma, > > What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a > plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the > most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not > handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. > > I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. > > You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let > us know if you can about the suckerfish. > > -Mike G > > -----Original Message----- > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > balloon > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > them like > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > suicide. > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > swimming > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > cichlid > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > them as > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > wrote: > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > find any good > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy > barb > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > bucket. I > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > think I > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > correctly. If you > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > there own, > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you > know how > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > save the > >gunk > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > front of me > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > filled with > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > laying eggs > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > can raise > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > <<GASP!>> > >Just > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > but that > >was > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and > have all > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > (floating) to keep > >it > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49984	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49985	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

hi my sis has a butterfly tail fancy gold fish in a five gallon tank it has been liveing in there for about a yr now should we get a bigger tank for it? ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 1:59:49 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Kai, > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as >Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown >up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll >reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members >found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if >you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate >conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", >they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the >size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough >tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach >the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need >to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into >growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish >when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos >that's what he wants. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy >goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 >gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and >filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you >are! > > > > > Bren > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can >grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many >inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49986	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

hi you should suggest guppies they are therecolorful. ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 3:58:26 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish >being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up >misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I >wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in >30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what >happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to >health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 >adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the >person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too >many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, >red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, >stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for >air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of >the gill tissue. > > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. >Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from >happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size >because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the >reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and >as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be >grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that >they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some >members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely >wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to >inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always >reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't >reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large >enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not >quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the >melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would >otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in >one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish >when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos >that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for >fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 >gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and >filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you >are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some >can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how >many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49987	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Has anyone mentioned the growth hormone goldfish emit when they are around eachother? The one that keeps their growth in check? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:58:26 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49988	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

In this case keeping the growth in check is a bad thing. Adequate water changes would also remove this hormone from the water. -Mike Original Message----- From: safirezprincess@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Jan 13, 2011 1:12 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Has anyone mentioned the growth hormone goldfish emit when they are around eachother? The one that keeps their growth in check? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:58:26 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49989	From: k chen	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

From person experience, goldfish do well with same type of goldfishes. Kept some tropical fishes with goldfishes and noticed tropical fishes like to eat goldfishes' fins. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: kuradi8@... Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:58:26 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49990	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

They often have ghost shrimp 3 for $1. They are really cool little animals and will often live pretty long (year or two) if you keep the water quality good for them. It's fun to search and try to find them, also fun to watch them - they'll steal food from the fish and scurry off with it. They also eat some of the gunk that aquariums accumulate on plants and decorations so they help to keep the tank cleaner. I love my ghost shrimp! If you like betta fish, I think they are a great addition to an aquarium, and a 10 gallon won't be too small for them. Consider the female bettas, too because they sell baby ones that do get better fins as they age, and they are easier to keep - not as prone to fin rot and such and can swim better in a community tank where they may need to avoid being nipped. Those pet stores often lie about compatibility and also how big fish will grow, so go, look and see what they have that looks good then go home and google the fish to see how big they REALLY get and how much space they REALLY need. You only want to buy fish from tanks where there are no dead or sick fish - no spots, no rotting fins, none huddled in a corner (unless it's normal behavior for that kind of fish, like Kuhli's normally try to hide). Don't get any from tanks where they're holding their fins clamped to their bodies either. If the tank hasn't cycled yet, only start with one fish, or if it is a schooling fish 3-4 very small ones. I sometimes use feeder guppies to cycle tanks. They are often the same kinds as fancy guppies just not full-size yet and can get really attractive in a month or two. Plus you can get 4 for around $0.50. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi i can't really decided what to get i am buying from petco so i will probiley > get some male guppies. but i don't know what else got any ideas? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:24:25 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > I think oto's are supposed to do a pretty good job but if they run out of algae > they can starve if you don't give them zucchini or something - they often won't > eat fish food. Those are called catfish but I don't see the resemblance. > > We have 7 cory catfish and they stir up the sand on the bottom of the tank so > the water always looks cloudy. It would probably help if the tank weren't > overcrowded, tho! LOL! > > If by dwarf pleco you mean ancistrus, they are awesome fish. The albino ones > only get to around 3.5". They keep the tank and walls really clean and will eat > algae wafers when they run out of algae (you're supposed to feed them some > anyways, but it's a balance!) > > I've had male and female bettas in with my guppies and they haven't bitten the > guppy tails, the largest guppy has bitten my betta female, tho, in fights over > food (guppies get really vicious around algae wafers!). Bettas have different > personalities, I guess it depends on the one you pick. Sometimes the bettas > start out kind of chasing the other fish but when they figure out the fish are > too big to eat and are not bettas, they then leave them alone. That can take a > couple of days. With guppies, tho the bettas will eat any fry they give birth > to and get really fat. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi it will be a dwarfpelco i don't have the tank set up yet what about the > > catfish i have heard they don't do a very good job? > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "Deenerz@" <Deenerz@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:01:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > Hi Emma, > > > > What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a > > plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the > > most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not > > handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. > > > > I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. > > > > You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let > > us know if you can about the suckerfish. > > > > -Mike G > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy > > barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you > > know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and > > have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49991	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please

On another list (not having to do with fish, believe it or not) someone during a discussion of genetics mentioned that male black bettas with a double dose of the black gene die. I've not heard this before, so I would like to know if there is truth behind this or is it a mere fiction possibly based on someone's misfortune of losing a number of black males early on in the rearing of them. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49992	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: male krib not in the mood?

Hi all--I'm new to this group. I have a beautiful trio (1 male, 2 females) of kribensis in a community tank with 1 big angelfish, a few neons, a pair of cherry barbs and a few ottos. The females are brillantly colored, as is the male. I've noticed that both females have bellies that are almost v-shaped, and I'm thinking they are getting ready to spawn? They are posturing to each other, but no violence, and seem to be trying to get the male's attention by wiggling in front of him but he just nips at them and scares them off. I do have a little cave decoration in there and the tank is a well planted 20 gallon. I'm wondering how I can condition these cuties a little more, or if/when the male might try spawning with them. I don't anticipate keeping live babies in that community tank but am wondering if anyone else has had this happen? Thanks for any info!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49993	From: haecklers	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please

Not according to this discussion: http://www.bettafish.com/showthread.php?t=19221 But they say the female melanos are infertile. I bred a mustard gas female with a Cambodian male and about 1/2 the fry are some shade of black, from just a hint to very dark black. All of the ones that have some black have the mustard gas dark edging on their fins. So if the gene that gives the dark color to the mustard gas is separate from the melano gene, then there is a confounding factor, like some of the red genes. In other words, if you can get a dark black fish from the mustard gas gene and it is separate from the melano gene, then you could have a black female that is not infertile, or a black male from a crossing of a black male and a black female that wouldn't be a double melano (because half the genes were from the dark mustard gas expression). Just a guess, I've failed so far to make many accurate guesses about how betta genes will express themselves. Some of my fry are brown (some black is in there) and have no iridescence. If I breed a male and a female like that, would the F2 have some all black offspring that have no iridescence so they look like the melanos? Interesting thought... Not that I'll be doing that, my faves are silver colored with both teal and purple iridescence. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > On another list (not having to do with fish, believe it or not) someone during a discussion of genetics mentioned that male black bettas with a double dose of the black gene die. I've not heard this before, so I would like to know if there is truth behind this or is it a mere fiction possibly based on someone's misfortune of losing a number of black males early on in the rearing of them. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49994	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

None of what you have said rules out bloat. And bloat is not caused by food, but I would stop feeding the sticks. Did you see the specific fish that died eat 2 hours before? Did you see any normal poop from the victim within the 24 hours before it died? In the absence of symptoms (except the vent) I don't see how you can treat for anything. I lost the original post, did you post water parameters? Something you can do that won't hurt anything is add Epsom salts which is a mild laxative. Meanwhile, watch every fish eat every time. And be sure you see normal poop (thick and food-colored) from every fish as well. If two months go by with no additional deaths then this will remain a mystery. : ) -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Noura Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 7:21 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid sudden death Nothing seemed wrong with the dead fish when I examined it, except for that vent and the fact that it was well.. Dead! Before that it was active and busy digging and moving gravel under a clay pot. It's a 34G housing only those four Yellow Labs (3" and 2") The remaining 3 Labs seem totally fine digging more than ever and begging for food as usual when they see me close. I'm feeding : Cichlid Flake (30$% Protein) contains spirulina and enriched with vitamins – one meal every 2 days Cucomber chunks and letuce (about 4 days aweek) ----à They adore these. High Protein sinking sticks (they grab them before the sticks reach the buttom) – about one meal aday Basic flake food – for all tropical fish – 38% Protein .. Occasionally I also have Tubifex worms and Blood Worms , Both which I DON'T feed to the cichlids. Using some of these types of food, could you please make a feeding program that suits my cichlids best? Thanks! Noura <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49972;_ylc=X3oDMTJyMHVzYT JrBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT cyBHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTQ5MTc3Mzc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death Posted by: "Ray" <mailto:sevenspringss@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20de ath> sevenspringss@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/sevenspringss> sevenspringss Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:13 pm (PST) Noura, Dawn and Donna make good points. While there is the possibility that the cause of death was due to a parasite, I was not convinced of this from the start when there are so many other possible causes. There's nothing here that proves to me it was a parasite. Of course, you want to watch your fish more closely for this potential, but in addition to what the others suggest, I'm wondering what you're feeding them. While your Yellow Labs are insectivores, rather than strictly algae grazers feeding on aufwuchs, like any other Mbuna their diet should not be too rich in protein. Sorry to hear about this loss. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49995	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

Have you already cycled the tank so that it's ready to hold fish? Amber On 1/13/2011 7:06 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't have any fish in the tank yet i am setting it up saturday. > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:54:02 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > I have to agree with Amber... unless you are planning a larger tank, > there is no > room for more fish in the current tank. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is > already > > too full to add more fish. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies > the3 > > > balloon > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > them like > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > suicide. > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > swimming > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > cichlid > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids > ignore > > > them as > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > find any good > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > rosy barb > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > bucket. I > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did > fine. I > > > think I > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > correctly. If you > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > there own, > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > you know how > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > save the > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > front of me > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > filled with > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > laying eggs > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see > if I > > > can raise > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > <<GASP!>> > > > >Just > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty > water, > > > but that > > > >was > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > and have all > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > (floating) to keep > > > >it > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49996	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

It doesn't keep their growth in check, that's the hormone that causes fish to be stunted and never reach their full size (sometimes), even after moving them to a larger tank. Amber On 1/13/2011 12:12 PM, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Has anyone mentioned the growth hormone goldfish emit when they are > around eachother? The one that keeps their growth in check? > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com>> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:58:26 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish > > Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any > kind. I wonder what else he'd like? > ~Kai > > Dawn wrote: > > > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 > gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will > devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or > comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried > to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then > tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the > fish lives that long) > > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them > back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have > to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing > the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the > fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or > crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic > behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor > growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can > permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder > problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill > tissue. > > > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential > size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded > prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult > goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they > get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy > goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need > 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be > maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". > I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation > of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't > want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate > conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always > reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of > them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being > supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The > other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as > "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to > produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise > go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one > 55 gallon tank. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 > gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to > Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at > minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at > least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less > water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than > that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g > tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" > but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't > find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is > recommended. > > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49997	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?

That angelfish needs a larger tank than 20 gallons (unless you get rid of all the other fish). I keep a mated pair in a 55 gallon with a few platty's to keep them busy (and fry to eat, since they love to hunt fry). Amber On 1/13/2011 4:01 PM, kwondrash wrote: > > Hi all--I'm new to this group. I have a beautiful trio (1 male, 2 > females) of kribensis in a community tank with 1 big angelfish, a few > neons, a pair of cherry barbs and a few ottos. The females are > brillantly colored, as is the male. I've noticed that both females > have bellies that are almost v-shaped, and I'm thinking they are > getting ready to spawn? They are posturing to each other, but no > violence, and seem to be trying to get the male's attention by > wiggling in front of him but he just nips at them and scares them off. > I do have a little cave decoration in there and the tank is a well > planted 20 gallon. I'm wondering how I can condition these cuties a > little more, or if/when the male might try spawning with them. I don't > anticipate keeping live babies in that community tank but am wondering > if anyone else has had this happen? > Thanks for any info!!! > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49998	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/13/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

Not specifically. However, be aware that all fish produce this hormone, whether they are with others or not. This is why we need to do partial water changes, to remove this hormone, various pheromones and other DOC's that we cannot measure for, at least inexpensively. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of safirezprincess@... Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:12 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Has anyone mentioned the growth hormone goldfish emit when they are around eachother? The one that keeps their growth in check? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:58:26 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Black Moor Goldfish Yikes! I think he'd better reconsider Black Moors or goldfish of any kind. I wonder what else he'd like? ~Kai Dawn wrote: > > I just need to point out that I did not say anything about 30 gallons per fish being adequate for any type of goldfish. I will devote my life to clearing up misinformation about goldfish, fancy or comet. 30 gallons per fish? Really? I wonder if anyone has ever tried to put a 10 inch (or even a 6 inch) goldfish in 30 gallons and then tested the water regularly for a few wks to see what happens? (if the fish lives that long) > After 30+ yrs of keeping goldfish, rescuing goldfish, nursing them back to health after they came from tanks that are too small... I have to say that 1 adult black moor in a 55 gallon tank is still pushing the limits unless the person plans to do daily water changes once the fish gets beyond 4 - 5 inches. > > End results of putting goldfish into tanks that are too small (or crowding too many fish into a tank), before they die... lethargic behavior, loss of appetite, red veining in the fins and body, tumor growth, bacterial and fungal infections, stunting of growth (which can permanently damage internal organs), gasping for air, swim bladder problems (can also become permanent damage), and burning of the gill tissue. > > I believe any fish deserves the right to reach its full potential size & age. Putting it into a tank that is too small or too crowded prevents this from happening. Few people have ever seen an adult goldfish of a normal healthy size because most die long before they get there, and it usually happens for the reasons I just listed above. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Kai, > > > > Amber IS being specific. Black Moors are a round-bodied fancy goldfish, and as Dawn has already said, these types of goldfish need 30 gallons each to be grown up to full size properly, and to be maintained at their full size that they'll reach -- which can be 10". I don't know in what patch of thin air some members found the equation of 1 goldfish per 10 gallons, but that's absolutely wrong if you don't want to eventually stunt your fish, and/or subject them to inadequate conditions as they reach maturity. While Black Moors don't always reach 10", they have the potential of approaching this size. Some of them don't reach the size mentioned, only because they aren't being supplied with a large enough tank, being given adequate PWC's. The other reason why some may not quite reach the same size as "gold"-colored fancy goldfish is because the melanin they need to produce (as black pigment) uses a lot of protein that would otherwise go into growth. Still, I would not put more than 2 Black Moors in one 55 gallon tank. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Yikes, really? There's a big difference between 10 and 30 gallons per fish when it's "only" a 55g. Let's keep this specific to Black Moors, OK? Cos that's what he wants. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber Berglund wrote: > > > > > > > > 10 Gallons is not enough for a goldfish, they require at minimum (for fancy goldfish) 30 gallons. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! :o) > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bren wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With goldfish it doesn't go by inches. Goldfish need at least 10 gallons each, and tell your friend he will have a lot less water changes and filter maintenance if he chooses less pets than that. What a nice friend you are! > > > > > > Bren > > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Asking for a friend: > > > > > > > > > > > > How many Black Moor Goldfish can he put into his (new) 55g tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > According to what I've read, they usually max out at 4-6" but some can grow to 10" and live 25 years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, he knows to cycle the water, test, etc. But I can't find how many inches per gallon they need or how many fish per tank is recommended. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 49999	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi those ideas sound good but my dad was a naturalistbefore he met my mom so he's probably right i don't think they have any ghost shrimp at petco but i will check Sunday. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 6:23:08 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? They often have ghost shrimp 3 for $1. They are really cool little animals and will often live pretty long (year or two) if you keep the water quality good for them. It's fun to search and try to find them, also fun to watch them - they'll steal food from the fish and scurry off with it. They also eat some of the gunk that aquariums accumulate on plants and decorations so they help to keep the tank cleaner. I love my ghost shrimp! If you like betta fish, I think they are a great addition to an aquarium, and a 10 gallon won't be too small for them. Consider the female bettas, too because they sell baby ones that do get better fins as they age, and they are easier to keep - not as prone to fin rot and such and can swim better in a community tank where they may need to avoid being nipped. Those pet stores often lie about compatibility and also how big fish will grow, so go, look and see what they have that looks good then go home and google the fish to see how big they REALLY get and how much space they REALLY need. You only want to buy fish from tanks where there are no dead or sick fish - no spots, no rotting fins, none huddled in a corner (unless it's normal behavior for that kind of fish, like Kuhli's normally try to hide). Don't get any from tanks where they're holding their fins clamped to their bodies either. If the tank hasn't cycled yet, only start with one fish, or if it is a schooling fish 3-4 very small ones. I sometimes use feeder guppies to cycle tanks. They are often the same kinds as fancy guppies just not full-size yet and can get really attractive in a month or two. Plus you can get 4 for around $0.50. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi i can't really decided what to get i am buying from petco so i will probiley > get some male guppies. but i don't know what else got any ideas? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:24:25 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > I think oto's are supposed to do a pretty good job but if they run out of algae > > they can starve if you don't give them zucchini or something - they often won't > > eat fish food. Those are called catfish but I don't see the resemblance. > > We have 7 cory catfish and they stir up the sand on the bottom of the tank so > the water always looks cloudy. It would probably help if the tank weren't > overcrowded, tho! LOL! > > If by dwarf pleco you mean ancistrus, they are awesome fish. The albino ones > only get to around 3.5". They keep the tank and walls really clean and will >eat > > algae wafers when they run out of algae (you're supposed to feed them some > anyways, but it's a balance!) > > I've had male and female bettas in with my guppies and they haven't bitten the > guppy tails, the largest guppy has bitten my betta female, tho, in fights over > food (guppies get really vicious around algae wafers!). Bettas have different > personalities, I guess it depends on the one you pick. Sometimes the bettas > start out kind of chasing the other fish but when they figure out the fish are > too big to eat and are not bettas, they then leave them alone. That can take a > > couple of days. With guppies, tho the bettas will eat any fry they give birth > to and get really fat. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi it will be a dwarfpelco i don't have the tank set up yet what about the > > catfish i have heard they don't do a very good job? > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "Deenerz@" <Deenerz@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 8:01:30 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > Hi Emma, > > > > What kind of "suckerfish" do you have? My assumption is that it is a > > plecostomus and there are over 300 hundred different plecos and the > > most common one gets up to 18 inches. Your 10 gallon tank could not > > handle one of those for very long and they grow fast. > > > > I hope it is a dwarf pleco if it is a pleco. > > > > You are doing the right thing asking questions about compatibility, let > > us know if you can about the suckerfish. > > > > -Mike G > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, Jan 11, 2011 12:40 pm > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > balloon > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > them like > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > suicide. > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > swimming > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > cichlid > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > them as > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > wrote: > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > find any good > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many rosy > > barb > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > bucket. I > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > think I > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > correctly. If you > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > there own, > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like you > > know how > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > save the > > >gunk > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > front of me > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > filled with > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > laying eggs > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > can raise > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > <<GASP!>> > > >Just > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > but that > > >was > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that and > > have all > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > (floating) to keep > > >it > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50000	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi i am setting it up tomorrow. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 9:51:53 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? Have you already cycled the tank so that it's ready to hold fish? Amber On 1/13/2011 7:06 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't have any fish in the tank yet i am setting it up saturday. > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 1:54:02 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > I have to agree with Amber... unless you are planning a larger tank, > there is no > room for more fish in the current tank. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is > already > > too full to add more fish. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies > the3 > > > balloon > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > them like > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > suicide. > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > swimming > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > cichlid > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids > ignore > > > them as > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > find any good > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > rosy barb > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > bucket. I > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did > fine. I > > > think I > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > correctly. If you > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > there own, > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > you know how > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > save the > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > front of me > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > filled with > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > laying eggs > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see > if I > > > can raise > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > <<GASP!>> > > > >Just > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty > water, > > > but that > > > >was > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > and have all > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > (floating) to keep > > > >it > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50001	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

Judy, Lots of questions here, I will do my best to answer them all for you. Please forgive me if I should miss something... Its hard to say if the other fish are picking on your ram or not, as we do not have a visual the way you do. I would suggest sitting down in front of your tank, maybe a foot or 2 away from the glass, and just spend 15 minutes or so watching what is going on in there. That can tell you more than we can about the relationship between your fish. If your male ram is part of a mated pair and you find you need to separate him from the other fish in the tank, I would urge you to move the female along with him. By separating the male and female you may break that bond they share, which would cause them to stop spawning. There is no way to assure that if put together again, especially after a long absence from each other, that they will continue as a bonded pair or ever spawn together again. Cichlids can be quite fussy this way. Moving a fish is almost always stressful. If the fish are healthy and the stress is minimal, then the fish are usually ok. That is something only your fish can tell you... some of what determines how easily they stress is species & genetics, but some of it is also individual personality. More territory (decor) in an aquarium is always a good thing! The more decor the more likely the fish are to live peacefully. Your algae issue can be caused by many things. Water test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH are a good starting point to identifying the cause of the problem. If you have the ability to test for phosphates (tap water as well as tank water) that can also help to rule out or confirm food for some species of algae. Can you describe the type of algae you are dealing with? What color green is it (dark or light)? When you touch it does it feel silky and "soft" or is it coarse and rough? Pictures can help a lot here. Different species of algae feed on different nutrients in a tank. Many times when it appears that plants are the root cause of an algae problem it is actually dead plant matter that serves as food for the algae. If the plants do not grow well, (not enough food, light, etc) they tend to die off a little at a time, which causes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels to fluctuate. Algae can feed on any of those 3 nutrients given off by the dead/dying plant matter. In a tank without live plants but using a plant substrate, it can be the nutrients intended for the plants that ends up feeding algae (because there is no competition for the food and it has nowhere else to go, it becomes waste in the water which can feed algae) Please remember that algae IS a live plant. Once we can help you to pinpoint the food source and you can remove that, the algae problem should go away rather easily. The fish will not be concerned with whether the plants are live or not in the tank. The fish will be more concerned with the function the plants provide, which is shelter and definition of territory. Silk works better than plastic for plants, not only does it last longer and is easier to clean, but silk plants (the kind made for aquarium use) also tend to have weighted bottoms which prevents them from floating at the top if/when fish begin to dig and rearrange the tank. Rock structures also provide good shelter and territory definition for the fish. You have lots of safe options for decor other than live plants. The biggest benefit in keeping live plants is that they help to use/remove nutrient levels in the tank. If live plants don't grow well they contribute to higher waste levels... so if your tank is not handling live plants then its best to keep them out until you can find plants that are compatible with your environment & lighting. There is more to growing live plants than just using a plant substrate. Is it possible you just have not yet tried a species of live plant that is well suited for your tank's conditions? Liquid test kits are a must. The strip tests are known to be very inaccurate, which makes them useless and sometimes dangerous to use. Getting false readings does not help you to determine what maintenance the tank needs or what may be causing you problems. Please let us know what your new test readings are... that will help us to help you much easier and faster. You have not said how big each of your fish is, but from what I have read in your post, it does sound like your tank is quite crowded. To advise whether you can move the "gold colored fish" out to the pond we would first need to know what species those fish are. If you are unsure, posting some clear photos of them can help us to ID them for you, then we could better advise you in that direction. Most algae eating fish are not strictly algae eaters. Many of them are omnivore, such as plecos and catfish. If there is ample enough food supply for them outside of algae they tend to not feed on algae as much. Can I ask what foods you offer to the tank now? How often? How long does it take for the fish to completely finish the food you offer them? What is your water change schedule? (how much and how often) In regards to substrate... less is not always more, but this again depends on the types of fish you are keeping. Fry tanks and quarantine tanks tend to do best with no substrate because it is easier to see the solid waste and remove it thoroughly with gravel vacs and water changes. However, the substrate is a huge part of where your good bacteria will colonize in any established tank. The less substrate you have the less surface area you have for the bacteria... which can upset the balance you are trying to achieve with waste levels and bacteria to break it down. When a substrate is too deep it can cause other problems, such as not being able to easily remove all of the solid waste easily, trapping toxic gasses below the surface of the substrate, etc. 2 - 3 inches of substrate is good for most situations without becoming a problem. Removing the plant substrate would not be a bad idea if you are not growing live plants. That may greatly help to reduce your algae issues... but be sure to replace it with gravel to maintain the depth of your substrate. If you'd like to post the type of plant substrate you have, there may be some easy, non stressful suggestions I can offer for how best to remove it. I hope I covered everything for you and hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "judith" <jkw1860@...> wrote: > > I have a 26 gal tank with 5 bolivian rams. The parents and 3 babies from the last spawn. Also there is a rubber lip plecostamus, 2 orange tetras, 2 gold colored fish and a small algae eater of some kind. These last 3 fish were freebies and I have had them a long time. The algae eater for 2 years and the other two for 6 months. > My male ram has been hanging out away from the other fish and looks bad kind of ragged. All the other fish look great and are acting normal. He has been this way going on three weeks. I have added salt and did extra water changes. Today I noticed a chunk missing out of his dorsal fin about half way back. Are the other fish picking on him? how did that chunk come missing? Should I take him out and put him in a tank by himself? Will this stress him further? Also I am going to try and change my tank up a bit, give the fish more hididng spots. I have a hard time with live plants so am going to use artificial for now until I can do more research on growing aquatic plants. Will this be stressful or helpful to the fish. Also I have hair algae that showed up when I tried live plants. I thought I had gotten rid of it but its back. Could this tell me something is wrong and is a clue to what is wrong with my ram? I am going out tomorrow and buying a test kit. My strips are gone and I was told on this group to get the kit. Is my tank crowded you think with the fish in there now? I have a twenty gal with 3 comets in there and they are going out in a pond this spring, they are growing fast. Should I put the two gold colored fish in with them? Which will ease the load on the 26 gal? These fish are about 1.5 inches at the most. I was told they eat algae. But this hadn't happened! > I read somewhere that the less substrate you have the cleaner the tank is. I have a plant substrate mixed with my gravel when I tried plants. So now ther is about 2 to 2.5 inches of substrate. Will it hurt to remove about half of this? > Thanks > Judy >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50002	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Danio fry quick advice??

hi thanks what about ghost shrimp ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 7:54:30 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? I'm not sure where Guppies enter into this picture (I don't recall seeing them mentioned in this thread), but your Dad is quite correct in that male Bettas have the momentary propensity to aggressively go after other long-finned fish such as fancy Guppies, possibly as they tend to see them, at least superficially, as another of their kind. Fancy Guppies are slow swimmers, shimmering their tails in a series of jerks -- like waving red red cape in front of a bull (LOL). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > my dad works at petco he conferred that a Betta would nip at the guppies tail > fins. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 5:35:27 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > Yeah, and danios do best in groups of 5-6 or more. If you get too few they can > > be nippy and aggressive (I know from experience). You don't want nippy fish > with a betta because they're pretty slow-moving with all that drag from the >long > > fins (unless you get a female one, they're like regular fish only beautiful >with > > lots of personality!) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > If you have that many fish in the tank already your 10 gallon is already > > too full to add more fish. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/11/2011 11:40 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > hi they sound good but i have to think of the Betta the 3 guppies the3 > > > balloon > > > bellied mollies and the sucker fish will the daniosaffect them? > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, January 11, 2011 10:05:51 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > You mean like fish that swim in the top level? Be careful - a lot of > > > them like > > > the upside-down catfish are jumpers and need a good cover to prevent > > > suicide. > > > Danios get really attractive as they grow up, but their constant fast > > > swimming > > > can drive slower fish crazy sometimes (or stress them). Ours are in a > > > cichlid > > > tank and they've claimed the top 5" of the water - the cichlids ignore > > > them as > > > long as they stay away from the rock caves. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > cool i just got a ten gallon tank and still need to fill it can't > > > find any good > > > > > > > > for photos top dwellers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: allis64 <allis64@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, January 10, 2011 7:18:23 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Danio fry quick advice?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing happened to me once. I dread to think of how many > > > rosy barb > > > > babies went down the drain before I noticed them in my water change > > > bucket. I > > > > put them in a 10 gal with a sponge filter, etc. and they did fine. I > > > think I > > > > sometimes fed them a drop of cooked egg yolk, if I remember > > > correctly. If you > > > > make "green water soup" for them, they will find little critters of > > > there own, > > > > > > > too. They also pluck goodies right off the sponge. It sounds like > > > you know how > > > > > > > to raise babies, so I think you'll do great. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I cleaned out the filter sponge in my 55 gallon and was going to > > > save the > > > >gunk > > > > > > > > >that came out of it for watering the plants. It's sitting here in > > > front of me > > > > > > > > >and I saw something moving in there. Upon closer inspection it's > > > filled with > > > > > > > >fry, danios I presume as they're the chickens of the fish world, > > > laying eggs > > > > >every few days. They look like they've only hatched a few days ago. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think, should I get them a 10-gallon tank and see if I > > > can raise > > > > > > > >them?? I shudder to think of how many just went down the drain! > > > <<GASP!>> > > > >Just > > > > > > > > >two weeks ago I nearly dumped a baby crayfish with the dirty water, > > > but that > > > >was > > > > > > > > >the second bucket of the water change. :( > > > > > > > > > > Do I raise them the same as betta fry? 'Cos I've just done that > > > and have all > > > > > > > > >the stuff - vinegar eels, microworms, etc. > > > > > > > > > > I just put their container of water in with the betta fry > > > (floating) to keep > > > >it > > > > > > > > >warm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50003	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or not ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 12:55:53 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram Judy, Lots of questions here, I will do my best to answer them all for you. Please forgive me if I should miss something... Its hard to say if the other fish are picking on your ram or not, as we do not have a visual the way you do. I would suggest sitting down in front of your tank, maybe a foot or 2 away from the glass, and just spend 15 minutes or so watching what is going on in there. That can tell you more than we can about the relationship between your fish. If your male ram is part of a mated pair and you find you need to separate him from the other fish in the tank, I would urge you to move the female along with him. By separating the male and female you may break that bond they share, which would cause them to stop spawning. There is no way to assure that if put together again, especially after a long absence from each other, that they will continue as a bonded pair or ever spawn together again. Cichlids can be quite fussy this way. Moving a fish is almost always stressful. If the fish are healthy and the stress is minimal, then the fish are usually ok. That is something only your fish can tell you... some of what determines how easily they stress is species & genetics, but some of it is also individual personality. More territory (decor) in an aquarium is always a good thing! The more decor the more likely the fish are to live peacefully. Your algae issue can be caused by many things. Water test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH are a good starting point to identifying the cause of the problem. If you have the ability to test for phosphates (tap water as well as tank water) that can also help to rule out or confirm food for some species of algae. Can you describe the type of algae you are dealing with? What color green is it (dark or light)? When you touch it does it feel silky and "soft" or is it coarse and rough? Pictures can help a lot here. Different species of algae feed on different nutrients in a tank. Many times when it appears that plants are the root cause of an algae problem it is actually dead plant matter that serves as food for the algae. If the plants do not grow well, (not enough food, light, etc) they tend to die off a little at a time, which causes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels to fluctuate. Algae can feed on any of those 3 nutrients given off by the dead/dying plant matter. In a tank without live plants but using a plant substrate, it can be the nutrients intended for the plants that ends up feeding algae (because there is no competition for the food and it has nowhere else to go, it becomes waste in the water which can feed algae) Please remember that algae IS a live plant. Once we can help you to pinpoint the food source and you can remove that, the algae problem should go away rather easily. The fish will not be concerned with whether the plants are live or not in the tank. The fish will be more concerned with the function the plants provide, which is shelter and definition of territory. Silk works better than plastic for plants, not only does it last longer and is easier to clean, but silk plants (the kind made for aquarium use) also tend to have weighted bottoms which prevents them from floating at the top if/when fish begin to dig and rearrange the tank. Rock structures also provide good shelter and territory definition for the fish. You have lots of safe options for decor other than live plants. The biggest benefit in keeping live plants is that they help to use/remove nutrient levels in the tank. If live plants don't grow well they contribute to higher waste levels... so if your tank is not handling live plants then its best to keep them out until you can find plants that are compatible with your environment & lighting. There is more to growing live plants than just using a plant substrate. Is it possible you just have not yet tried a species of live plant that is well suited for your tank's conditions? Liquid test kits are a must. The strip tests are known to be very inaccurate, which makes them useless and sometimes dangerous to use. Getting false readings does not help you to determine what maintenance the tank needs or what may be causing you problems. Please let us know what your new test readings are... that will help us to help you much easier and faster. You have not said how big each of your fish is, but from what I have read in your post, it does sound like your tank is quite crowded. To advise whether you can move the "gold colored fish" out to the pond we would first need to know what species those fish are. If you are unsure, posting some clear photos of them can help us to ID them for you, then we could better advise you in that direction. Most algae eating fish are not strictly algae eaters. Many of them are omnivore, such as plecos and catfish. If there is ample enough food supply for them outside of algae they tend to not feed on algae as much. Can I ask what foods you offer to the tank now? How often? How long does it take for the fish to completely finish the food you offer them? What is your water change schedule? (how much and how often) In regards to substrate... less is not always more, but this again depends on the types of fish you are keeping. Fry tanks and quarantine tanks tend to do best with no substrate because it is easier to see the solid waste and remove it thoroughly with gravel vacs and water changes. However, the substrate is a huge part of where your good bacteria will colonize in any established tank. The less substrate you have the less surface area you have for the bacteria... which can upset the balance you are trying to achieve with waste levels and bacteria to break it down. When a substrate is too deep it can cause other problems, such as not being able to easily remove all of the solid waste easily, trapping toxic gasses below the surface of the substrate, etc. 2 - 3 inches of substrate is good for most situations without becoming a problem. Removing the plant substrate would not be a bad idea if you are not growing live plants. That may greatly help to reduce your algae issues... but be sure to replace it with gravel to maintain the depth of your substrate. If you'd like to post the type of plant substrate you have, there may be some easy, non stressful suggestions I can offer for how best to remove it. I hope I covered everything for you and hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "judith" <jkw1860@...> wrote: > > I have a 26 gal tank with 5 bolivian rams. The parents and 3 babies from the >last spawn. Also there is a rubber lip plecostamus, 2 orange tetras, 2 gold >colored fish and a small algae eater of some kind. These last 3 fish were >freebies and I have had them a long time. The algae eater for 2 years and the >other two for 6 months. > My male ram has been hanging out away from the other fish and looks bad kind >of ragged. All the other fish look great and are acting normal. He has been >this way going on three weeks. I have added salt and did extra water changes. >Today I noticed a chunk missing out of his dorsal fin about half way back. Are >the other fish picking on him? how did that chunk come missing? Should I take >him out and put him in a tank by himself? Will this stress him further? Also I >am going to try and change my tank up a bit, give the fish more hididng spots. >I have a hard time with live plants so am going to use artificial for now until >I can do more research on growing aquatic plants. Will this be stressful or >helpful to the fish. Also I have hair algae that showed up when I tried live >plants. I thought I had gotten rid of it but its back. Could this tell me >something is wrong and is a clue to what is wrong with my ram? I am going out >tomorrow and buying a test kit. My strips are gone and I was told on this group >to get the kit. Is my tank crowded you think with the fish in there now? I >have a twenty gal with 3 comets in there and they are going out in a pond this >spring, they are growing fast. Should I put the two gold colored fish in with >them? Which will ease the load on the 26 gal? These fish are about 1.5 inches >at the most. I was told they eat algae. But this hadn't happened! > I read somewhere that the less substrate you have the cleaner the tank is. I >have a plant substrate mixed with my gravel when I tried plants. So now ther is >about 2 to 2.5 inches of substrate. Will it hurt to remove about half of this? > Thanks > Judy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50004	From: joe t	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions

Hello Melani, I was browing thru the groups send outs and I ran accross your inquiry about the kribensis. You did not give enough information abut your tank and the water parameters, etc. but on a general basis I can inform you on the breeding of the "kribs" as we call them. First of all, if you're sure you have a pair, do not move them to another tank (presuming the four kribs you mentioned are all that are in there). Move the other two to another tank. Since they are starting to pair off, as you said, you do not want to change their environment. Unfortunately, you probably will not be able to witness them mating because they doe this in "caves" with you could mimic with some rocks if you want to play with it, or a turned over flower pot. A clay one would work just fine. Make sure it is clean so you are not putting any pesticides and dirt from the garden. If you can, get a new one. Fix the pot so that one end is slighly raised high enough for the fish to get in there. If they are pairing, give them a little time to get used to the new object in the tank --the flower pot -- and then in a while you will not be seeing too much of them since they will be in their new home --the flower pot --- doing their thing. It will not be too long until you will see them out in the open again with a swarm of fry. It is a lot of fun to see. If you are going to get involved and try to raise the fry, it gets a wee bit more complicated. You can cross that bridge when you get to it. joe t. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > Hi does anyone know anything about kribensis. I have four kribensis. A albino and three regs. I would like to breed them but the albino male ( I am sure on the sexs ) Doesn't like the female who is obbsesed with him. I have a pair who i am sure are a pair. I am going to move them to a diffrent tank alone to try to breed them tommorow. Any tips on breeding whould be good. I have no idea what to do. The four are fighting terribly but i can't move the pair until tommorow. The four are lip locking even. help and tips would be grately appreciated. Thanks >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50005	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

Hi Dawn. Your answer was very informative. I sat in front of my tank this morning and the gold colored fish which I have identified with pictures are gold barbs, are picking on my sick ram. So I took my 2.5 gal tank and set it up with no gravel and water from the tank and added a half teaspoon of salt. The temp in the little tank is 82 which is what the big tank is. When I went to net the ram I just put the net in front of him and waited a few seconds and he swam right in! I thought I might have to chase him around. Thank goodness that didn't happen. I didn't know about keeping the mated pair together so I will put her in there with him tomorrow. I hope it isn't too late. The gold fish are in another tank and they are the ones going outside. I just bought a chemical water test kit, the big one and will use it tomorrow. The substrate is a black substance that I ordered on line from foster and smith. I have a banana plant and a moss ball that are thriving in the tank right now. I haven't touched the algae so I will do that. I don't think I can separate the plant substrate from the gravel so I will leave it. Also when you have a densely Planted tank how do you vacuum the gravel? Also my water looks like it has dust in it. What is this? The water is clear with what looks like dust particles floating in it. Thank you so much for the information. I also bought some parasite medicine but will wait to use it. Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone -----Original Message----- From: "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:55:53 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram Judy, Lots of questions here, I will do my best to answer them all for you. Please forgive me if I should miss something... Its hard to say if the other fish are picking on your ram or not, as we do not have a visual the way you do. I would suggest sitting down in front of your tank, maybe a foot or 2 away from the glass, and just spend 15 minutes or so watching what is going on in there. That can tell you more than we can about the relationship between your fish. If your male ram is part of a mated pair and you find you need to separate him from the other fish in the tank, I would urge you to move the female along with him. By separating the male and female you may break that bond they share, which would cause them to stop spawning. There is no way to assure that if put together again, especially after a long absence from each other, that they will continue as a bonded pair or ever spawn together again. Cichlids can be quite fussy this way. Moving a fish is almost always stressful. If the fish are healthy and the stress is minimal, then the fish are usually ok. That is something only your fish can tell you... some of what determines how easily they stress is species & genetics, but some of it is also individual personality. More territory (decor) in an aquarium is always a good thing! The more decor the more likely the fish are to live peacefully. Your algae issue can be caused by many things. Water test results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH are a good starting point to identifying the cause of the problem. If you have the ability to test for phosphates (tap water as well as tank water) that can also help to rule out or confirm food for some species of algae. Can you describe the type of algae you are dealing with? What color green is it (dark or light)? When you touch it does it feel silky and "soft" or is it coarse and rough? Pictures can help a lot here. Different species of algae feed on different nutrients in a tank. Many times when it appears that plants are the root cause of an algae problem it is actually dead plant matter that serves as food for the algae. If the plants do not grow well, (not enough food, light, etc) they tend to die off a little at a time, which causes ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels to fluctuate. Algae can feed on any of those 3 nutrients given off by the dead/dying plant matter. In a tank without live plants but using a plant substrate, it can be the nutrients intended for the plants that ends up feeding algae (because there is no competition for the food and it has nowhere else to go, it becomes waste in the water which can feed algae) Please remember that algae IS a live plant. Once we can help you to pinpoint the food source and you can remove that, the algae problem should go away rather easily. The fish will not be concerned with whether the plants are live or not in the tank. The fish will be more concerned with the function the plants provide, which is shelter and definition of territory. Silk works better than plastic for plants, not only does it last longer and is easier to clean, but silk plants (the kind made for aquarium use) also tend to have weighted bottoms which prevents them from floating at the top if/when fish begin to dig and rearrange the tank. Rock structures also provide good shelter and territory definition for the fish. You have lots of safe options for decor other than live plants. The biggest benefit in keeping live plants is that they help to use/remove nutrient levels in the tank. If live plants don't grow well they contribute to higher waste levels... so if your tank is not handling live plants then its best to keep them out until you can find plants that are compatible with your environment & lighting. There is more to growing live plants than just using a plant substrate. Is it possible you just have not yet tried a species of live plant that is well suited for your tank's conditions? Liquid test kits are a must. The strip tests are known to be very inaccurate, which makes them useless and sometimes dangerous to use. Getting false readings does not help you to determine what maintenance the tank needs or what may be causing you problems. Please let us know what your new test readings are... that will help us to help you much easier and faster. You have not said how big each of your fish is, but from what I have read in your post, it does sound like your tank is quite crowded. To advise whether you can move the "gold colored fish" out to the pond we would first need to know what species those fish are. If you are unsure, posting some clear photos of them can help us to ID them for you, then we could better advise you in that direction. Most algae eating fish are not strictly algae eaters. Many of them are omnivore, such as plecos and catfish. If there is ample enough food supply for them outside of algae they tend to not feed on algae as much. Can I ask what foods you offer to the tank now? How often? How long does it take for the fish to completely finish the food you offer them? What is your water change schedule? (how much and how often) In regards to substrate... less is not always more, but this again depends on the types of fish you are keeping. Fry tanks and quarantine tanks tend to do best with no substrate because it is easier to see the solid waste and remove it thoroughly with gravel vacs and water changes. However, the substrate is a huge part of where your good bacteria will colonize in any established tank. The less substrate you have the less surface area you have for the bacteria... which can upset the balance you are trying to achieve with waste levels and bacteria to break it down. When a substrate is too deep it can cause other problems, such as not being able to easily remove all of the solid waste easily, trapping toxic gasses below the surface of the substrate, etc. 2 - 3 inches of substrate is good for most situations without becoming a problem. Removing the plant substrate would not be a bad idea if you are not growing live plants. That may greatly help to reduce your algae issues... but be sure to replace it with gravel to maintain the depth of your substrate. If you'd like to post the type of plant substrate you have, there may be some easy, non stressful suggestions I can offer for how best to remove it. I hope I covered everything for you and hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "judith" <jkw1860@...> wrote: > > I have a 26 gal tank with 5 bolivian rams. The parents and 3 babies from the last spawn. Also there is a rubber lip plecostamus, 2 orange tetras, 2 gold colored fish and a small algae eater of some kind. These last 3 fish were freebies and I have had them a long time. The algae eater for 2 years and the other two for 6 months. > My male ram has been hanging out away from the other fish and looks bad kind of ragged. All the other fish look great and are acting normal. He has been this way going on three weeks. I have added salt and did extra water changes. Today I noticed a chunk missing out of his dorsal fin about half way back. Are the other fish picking on him? how did that chunk come missing? Should I take him out and put him in a tank by himself? Will this stress him further? Also I am going to try and change my tank up a bit, give the fish more hididng spots. I have a hard time with live plants so am going to use artificial for now until I can do more research on growing aquatic plants. Will this be stressful or helpful to the fish. Also I have hair algae that showed up when I tried live plants. I thought I had gotten rid of it but its back. Could this tell me something is wrong and is a clue to what is wrong with my ram? I am going out tomorrow and buying a test kit. My strips are gone and I was told on this group to get the kit. Is my tank crowded you think with the fish in there now? I have a twenty gal with 3 comets in there and they are going out in a pond this spring, they are growing fast. Should I put the two gold colored fish in with them? Which will ease the load on the 26 gal? These fish are about 1.5 inches at the most. I was told they eat algae. But this hadn't happened! > I read somewhere that the less substrate you have the cleaner the tank is. I have a plant substrate mixed with my gravel when I tried plants. So now ther is about 2 to 2.5 inches of substrate. Will it hurt to remove about half of this? > Thanks > Judy > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50006	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

google "bolivian ram images" - they're a beautiful fish! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or not

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50007	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please

As was already mentioned, what "black gene" they are referring to makes a big difference. The other thing that needs to be taken into account is how much line breeding was done to get the all black fish? The more line bred a fish gets to be the more genetic defects tend to be present, which can cause a multitude of problems from deformity, organ problems, lack of immune system, and short life span, etc. Where the black gene comes from also makes a difference. Does it come from a wild caught fish? Does it come from a line bred fish? Somewhere in between? What has been crossed with it along the way? Lots and lots to consider there. But, in direct answer to your question, do they all die just because they have a double dose of the black gene? The answer is no. Its more complicated than that. It sounds like this person may have had some bad experiences with poorly bred fish to start with, and there is no way to tell what other factors were involved in those fish deaths... water quality, lack of nutrition, stress, improper temp, aggression from other fish, illness/disease, etc. I would want to see a list of necropsy reports and lab work narrowing it down to those specific genes in a multitude of male black betta fish before I would be willing to consider that the statement as its worded, is true (or not). Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > On another list (not having to do with fish, believe it or not) someone during a discussion of genetics mentioned that male black bettas with a double dose of the black gene die. I've not heard this before, so I would like to know if there is truth behind this or is it a mere fiction possibly based on someone's misfortune of losing a number of black males early on in the rearing of them. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50008	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Genetics -- Expert Please

I do wonder about that when choosing fish to breed with. My spawn has some gorgeous large fry and some tiny runts - that someone told me will eventually grow to full-size. I'd think the ones with the best size and growth would make the best ones to breed because they probably had everything going for them, health-wise. But some say the runts when they finally get full-sized are often the show-stopping fish - best fins, best colors, etc. But if you buy a runt, it seems there were health problems that were what caused it to fall behind, so to speak. Another consideration, as I think about the fellow I met who goes to fish shows and buys the champions to breed and has been having no luck with them spawning, is that they may have been line-bred for too long - like an F4 or so, where fertility takes a nosedive, like Dawn said. I guess a lot of times people get fish to breed not knowing much at all about the spawn they came from, the parents' genes, etc. Unlike larger animals like dogs where you can get "the pick of the litter" and also see the littermates and geneology. I wouldn't want to breed a fish that came from a spawn in which only 7 survived when a normal spawn is around 300. But it sounds like that is closer to normal for the really showy fish. So... Anybody want the pick of the litter from my spawn?? They're only delta tails but I've only had around 8 die out of the whole 200+, and haven't medicated them at all except for some parasites I thought they may have been exposed to from the filter I put in their tank (levamisole). I'll put a photo in the Photos section under Haecklers Fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > As was already mentioned, what "black gene" they are referring to makes a big difference. The other thing that needs to be taken into account is how much line breeding was done to get the all black fish? The more line bred a fish gets to be the more genetic defects tend to be present, which can cause a multitude of problems from deformity, organ problems, lack of immune system, and short life span, etc. > > Where the black gene comes from also makes a difference. Does it come from a wild caught fish? Does it come from a line bred fish? Somewhere in between? What has been crossed with it along the way? Lots and lots to consider there. But, in direct answer to your question, do they all die just because they have a double dose of the black gene? The answer is no. Its more complicated than that. It sounds like this person may have had some bad experiences with poorly bred fish to start with, and there is no way to tell what other factors were involved in those fish deaths... water quality, lack of nutrition, stress, improper temp, aggression from other fish, illness/disease, etc. I would want to see a list of necropsy reports and lab work narrowing it down to those specific genes in a multitude of male black betta fish before I would be willing to consider that the statement as its worded, is true (or not). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > On another list (not having to do with fish, believe it or not) someone during a discussion of genetics mentioned that male black bettas with a double dose of the black gene die. I've not heard this before, so I would like to know if there is truth behind this or is it a mere fiction possibly based on someone's misfortune of losing a number of black males early on in the rearing of them. > > > > \\Steve// > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50009	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?

Sounds as if you may be experiencing some issues with tank space and territory, possibly water quality too? That tank is quite crowded if those kribs are full grown, I'm assuming the angelfish is not full grown... Another possibility is that the kribs are not fully mature yet, so still unsure of what they're doing. I would suggest getting them into a bigger tank with more cave options and territory. Can you tell us how big the fish are? (in particular the angelfish and the kribs) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > > Hi all--I'm new to this group. I have a beautiful trio (1 male, 2 females) of kribensis in a community tank with 1 big angelfish, a few neons, a pair of cherry barbs and a few ottos. The females are brillantly colored, as is the male. I've noticed that both females have bellies that are almost v-shaped, and I'm thinking they are getting ready to spawn? They are posturing to each other, but no violence, and seem to be trying to get the male's attention by wiggling in front of him but he just nips at them and scares them off. > I do have a little cave decoration in there and the tank is a well planted 20 gallon. I'm wondering how I can condition these cuties a little more, or if/when the male might try spawning with them. I don't anticipate keeping live babies in that community tank but am wondering if anyone else has had this happen? > Thanks for any info!!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50010	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

i agree they are beautiful fish but how big do they get. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:13:15 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram google "bolivian ram images" - they're a beautiful fish! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or not [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50011	From: haecklers	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

3". Not an easy fish, tho, they need pretty clean water and a smaller range of pH than many domestic fish - 6.0 to 7.4 --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i agree they are beautiful fish but how big do they get. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:13:15 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram > > > google "bolivian ram images" - they're a beautiful fish! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or > not > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50012	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/14/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

They stay small. About 2 inches and sometimes get to 3 inches. My sick male is about two and a half inches. Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:32:29 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram i agree they are beautiful fish but how big do they get. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:13:15 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram google "bolivian ram images" - they're a beautiful fish! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or not [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50013	From: Noura	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid sudden death

Thanks for the feeding tip Donna. Will keep a close eye on their feeding and "discharges". And come back to the group if anything abnormal was noticed. Unfortunately, I was too busy with my kids when the fish died that I didn't have time to collect the parameters (API Test kit requires about 10 minutes of time cause I'm a beginner), and I performed a PWC later forgetting to perform the parameters' tests. Another member asked where and when did I get them, I got them over six months ago, except for one fish whom is healthy, the latter was brought about 45 days ago. All from a local fish store that housed Yellow Labs and Kenyi cichlids in the same tank. Noura <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/49994;_ylc=X3oDMTJydW9pMG k4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzQ5OT k0BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEyOTUwMDMzNDc-> Re: Cichlid sudden death Posted by: "Donna Ransome" djransome@... <mailto:djransome@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Cichlid%20sudden%20death> dransome13 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/dransome13> Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:22 pm (PST) None of what you have said rules out bloat. And bloat is not caused by food, but I would stop feeding the sticks. Did you see the specific fish that died eat 2 hours before? Did you see any normal poop from the victim within the 24 hours before it died? In the absence of symptoms (except the vent) I don't see how you can treat for anything. I lost the original post, did you post water parameters? Something you can do that won't hurt anything is add Epsom salts which is a mild laxative. Meanwhile, watch every fish eat every time. And be sure you see normal poop (thick and food-colored) from every fish as well. If two months go by with no additional deaths then this will remain a mystery. : ) -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Noura Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 7:21 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid sudden death Nothing seemed wrong with the dead fish when I examined it, except for that vent and the fact that it was� well.. Dead! Before that it was active and busy digging and moving gravel under a clay pot. It's a 34G housing only those four Yellow Labs (3" and 2") The remaining 3 Labs seem totally fine digging more than ever and begging for food as usual when they see me close. I'm feeding : Cichlid Flake (30$% Protein) contains spirulina and enriched with vitamins � one meal every 2 days Cucomber chunks and letuce (about 4 days aweek) ----� They adore these. High Protein sinking sticks (they grab them before the sticks reach the buttom) � about one meal aday Basic flake food � for all tropical fish � 38% Protein �.. Occasionally I also have Tubifex worms and Blood Worms , Both which I DON'T feed to the cichlids. Using some of these types of food, could you please make a feeding program that suits my cichlids best? Thanks! Noura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50014	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: sick bolivian ram

really i really liked the looks of those ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 6:12:57 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram 3". Not an easy fish, tho, they need pretty clean water and a smaller range of pH than many domestic fish - 6.0 to 7.4 --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i agree they are beautiful fish but how big do they get. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 2:13:15 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: sick bolivian ram > > > google "bolivian ram images" - they're a beautiful fish! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi i don't know much about them but i would like to know if there a fish or > not > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50015	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Badis juergenschmidti - a new species of the Indo-burmese fish famil

http://www.vertebrate-zoology.de/vz60-3/04_Vertebrate_Zoology_60-3_Schindler.pdf http://tinyurl.com/4t9vggn For you Badis people, this is a must read document. For others, it may be an interesting look at how fish are described and determined to be a new species. If you do not have a science background, however, it may be a bit of a tough read, but persevere anyway, it is a lot easier than reading the science of the nitrogen cycle that happens in your tanks. In fact, it may lead you to read more of the science behind aquarium keeping which is actually, for at least some of us, quite fascinating. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50016	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: pelican gulper eel

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3541&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_14_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Pelican_gulper_eel&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/48fujum [photos & video at link] Weird fish of the week: Pelican gulper eel Our trawl through some of the stranger fish of the world's waters seems to become more fertile the deeper we go, and this week's subject, Eurypharynx pelecanoides - commonly known as the Pelican gulper eel - is further proof of this. Check out the video! With its mouth closed, it looks more like a rather soggy sock puppet than an efficient deep sea predator, especially with its button like eyes on the tip of its nose, but once it deploys its enormous gape to full effect it becomes clear where it gets its name from. Hanging in the abyssal darkness the fish simply opens its huge mouth, and with the aid of a bioluminescent tail tip lures unsuspecting denizens of the deep towards it, where they are quickly engulfed and swallowed. With meals often few and far between in the deep, the fish is capable of swallowing prey of considerable size which it fits into its extendable stomach, but studies of captured fishes gut contents show that much of its diet is made up of crustaceans and smaller fish. It's the only known member of the family Eurypharyngidae, whose name is derived from the Greek for 'good pharynx' which it certainly has judging by the size of some of the prey it swallows! Growing to around 1m/3ft maximum, these ocean oddities also have one final notable adaptation. Their lateral line sensory organs are found upon a row of raised tubercles rather than the more usual pores, which it has been speculated may increase their sensitivity - another handy tool in finding food in the abyss. They are resident throughout the world's oceans at depths between 500-7625m/1640-25,000ft. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 13 January 2011, 1:10 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50017	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

I do not know how I came upon this link to the PDF (link is listed below), but it gives an idea of what it is like to be a fish farmer. It appears to be part of a course given at Saint Joseph University, a Jesuit school in Philadelphia, PA. Even if you do not wish to be a fish farmer, it is a good read. And, if you choose, you will not be graded on your answers to the questions given at the end of the file. http://www.abe.sju.edu/gagnon.pdf \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50018	From: Melani	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions

thanks the albinos i mentioned found new homes and i replaced them with regs. The female now likes and i mean likes a diffrent male now. they both have chosen a pot in the main tank and are really territorialy. they are both in there breeding colors so i am afraid to change tanks on them. my nitrates and amonia are pratically perfect but right now the ph is way too high but i am working on brining it down. they seem to be alot happier about that. i love the way they shiver in front of each other and its not just the female shiverring wich is cool so i think every thing is going well. thanks! --- On Fri, 1/14/11, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: From: joe t <jett07002@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: (new here ) kribensis questions To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 12:38 PM   Hello Melani, I was browing thru the groups send outs and I ran accross your inquiry about the kribensis. You did not give enough information abut your tank and the water parameters, etc. but on a general basis I can inform you on the breeding of the "kribs" as we call them. First of all, if you're sure you have a pair, do not move them to another tank (presuming the four kribs you mentioned are all that are in there). Move the other two to another tank. Since they are starting to pair off, as you said, you do not want to change their environment. Unfortunately, you probably will not be able to witness them mating because they doe this in "caves" with you could mimic with some rocks if you want to play with it, or a turned over flower pot. A clay one would work just fine. Make sure it is clean so you are not putting any pesticides and dirt from the garden. If you can, get a new one. Fix the pot so that one end is slighly raised high enough for the fish to get in there. If they are pairing, give them a little time to get used to the new object in the tank --the flower pot -- and then in a while you will not be seeing too much of them since they will be in their new home --the flower pot --- doing their thing. It will not be too long until you will see them out in the open again with a swarm of fry. It is a lot of fun to see. If you are going to get involved and try to raise the fry, it gets a wee bit more complicated. You can cross that bridge when you get to it. joe t. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > Hi does anyone know anything about kribensis. I have four kribensis. A albino and three regs. I would like to breed them but the albino male ( I am sure on the sexs ) Doesn't like the female who is obbsesed with him. I have a pair who i am sure are a pair. I am going to move them to a diffrent tank alone to try to breed them tommorow. Any tips on breeding whould be good. I have no idea what to do. The four are fighting terribly but i can't move the pair until tommorow. The four are lip locking even. help and tips would be grately appreciated. Thanks > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50019	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/15/2011
Subject: Re: (new here ) kribensis questions

Messing with your natural pH of your tap water/tank water can be very dangerous, you have to watch it constantly and be prepared to fix any changes. pH can quickly kill your fish if it changes too fast and too much, so be very careful. We do not recommend changing your pH but instead get fish that will thrive in the pH you have instead, as it is much safer and MUCH less work. Amber On 1/15/2011 9:04 AM, Melani wrote: > > thanks the albinos i mentioned found new homes and i replaced them > with regs. The female now likes and i mean likes a diffrent male now. > they both have chosen a pot in the main tank and are really > territorialy. they are both in there breeding colors so i am afraid to > change tanks on them. my nitrates and amonia are pratically perfect > but right now the ph is way too high but i am working on brining it > down. they seem to be alot happier about that. i love the way they > shiver in front of each other and its not just the female shiverring > wich is cool so i think every thing is going well. thanks! > > --- On Fri, 1/14/11, joe t <jett07002@... > <mailto:jett07002%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: joe t <jett07002@... <mailto:jett07002%40yahoo.com>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: (new here ) kribensis questions > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, January 14, 2011, 12:38 PM > > > > Hello Melani, > I was browing thru the groups send outs and I ran accross your inquiry > about the kribensis. You did not give enough information abut your > tank and the water parameters, etc. but on a general basis I can > inform you on the breeding of the "kribs" as we call them. > > First of all, if you're sure you have a pair, do not move them to > another tank (presuming the four kribs you mentioned are all that are > in there). Move the other two to another tank. Since they are starting > to pair off, as you said, you do not want to change their environment. > > Unfortunately, you probably will not be able to witness them mating > because they doe this in "caves" with you could mimic with some rocks > if you want to play with it, or a turned over flower pot. A clay one > would work just fine. Make sure it is clean so you are not putting any > pesticides and dirt from the garden. If you can, get a new one. > > Fix the pot so that one end is slighly raised high enough for the fish > to get in there. > > If they are pairing, give them a little time to get used to the new > object in the tank --the flower pot -- and then in a while you will > not be seeing too much of them since they will be in their new home > --the flower pot --- doing their thing. > > It will not be too long until you will see them out in the open again > with a swarm of fry. > > It is a lot of fun to see. If you are going to get involved and try to > raise the fry, it gets a wee bit more complicated. You can cross that > bridge when you get to it. > > joe t. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > > > Hi does anyone know anything about kribensis. I have four kribensis. > A albino and three regs. I would like to breed them but the albino > male ( I am sure on the sexs ) Doesn't like the female who is obbsesed > with him. I have a pair who i am sure are a pair. I am going to move > them to a diffrent tank alone to try to breed them tommorow. Any tips > on breeding whould be good. I have no idea what to do. The four are > fighting terribly but i can't move the pair until tommorow. The four > are lip locking even. help and tips would be grately appreciated. Thanks > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50020	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Betta aquarium

I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. Your help will be highly appreciated -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50021	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this aggression against any fish. Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a bubble nest should they be in the mood. Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and also it will spice up his life. Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense of territory. His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your other tank(s). \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gian Carlo Miguel Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 6:59 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Betta aquarium I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. Your help will be highly appreciated -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50022	From: betti@optonline.net	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

I am no expert on the matter at all. But years ago we had a betta in our mixed peaceful 30 gallon aquarium with no problems, Seems they are usually only aggressive to other male bettas (or possibly other fish with long fins that they may mistake for another betta). Once we even put a female betta in there and they made a bubble nest, but the babies didn't survive because of the other fish. I would suspect that although they can live in a jar, one would thrive in a 10 gallon planted aquarium. Just don't put in 2 males. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gian Carlo Miguel Date: Sunday, January 16, 2011 7:00 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Betta aquarium To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta > splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them > kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have > already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep > on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are > labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or > vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned > that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of > environment isn't too good for them because it could make them > prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more > shorter). > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter > aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a > variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like > water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once > in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser > need for it). > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's > environment. > Your help will be highly appreciated > > -Gian > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50023	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Gian, 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or larger) gallon would be better. I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them barking at each other. :o) Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. ~Kai > \\Steve// wrote: > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this aggression against any fish. > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a bubble nest should they be in the mood. > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and also it will spice up his life. > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense of territory. > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your other tank(s). > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > Gian wrote: > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50024	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Those pet shops want you to believe that a betta could be happy in a 15 oz cup. Uh-uh. I've kept them in gallon and a half critter keepers. I used to change the water I think twice a week. Remember to acclimate the fish to the new water, even if it's similar to the old water. You can also go the whole nine yards with a filtered aquarium - and someone here will probably try to talk you into it. Bettas are pretty hardy. They just aren't Superfish. ;) Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2011 7:38 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Betta aquarium Gian, 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or larger) gallon would be better. I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them barking at each other. :o) Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. ~Kai > \\Steve// wrote: > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will do. Look > around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. Bettas can be > overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression to conspecifics > (others of the same species), but some may use this aggression against any > fish. > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need an air > pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a bubble nest > should they be in the mood. > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want the > airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and warm for > when they breathe atmospheric air. > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the tank so > that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and also it will > spice up his life. > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense of > territory. > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional helping > of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your other > tank(s). > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > Gian wrote: > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta > splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in > small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some > shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't > even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do > fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, > I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of > environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to > health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of > his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria > and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my > betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the > lesser need for it). > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's > environment. > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > -Gian > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50025	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

In my experience bettas are a lot more active and have more personality if you keep them warmer - 75 - 80 F range. If you have plenty of plants they'll add oxygen to the water and the fish should be ok. They do appreciate more room to swim, but especially the really extreme veils and halfmoon ones tend to get their fins nipped and torn in a community tank, even by what we think of as peaceful fish. The less fancy ones are great community tank occupants. Pet shop people give horrible advice about bettas! Not only do they try to sell way too small containers for them but they also say things like "they can live off plant roots" or "only feed them twice a week". I feed mine dry and frozen foods twice or 3 times a day and they are very healthy. The best bettas we have are the ones who lived outdoors and stuffed themselves with mosquito larvae all day long until they looked about to burst. Not that I recommend overfeeding them, they can eat themselves to death but you'll see a very noticable bulge before that happens. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50026	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

I've heard you're supposed to buy new fish food every 3 months because the fats in them go rancid after being exposed to the air. I don't exactly do that, but I do keep most of my fish food in the freezer if I buy big amounts and keep small amounts out for fish food. After about a year I use the remaining fish food for feeding crickets or dog treats, depending on the size of it. Just like for humans, fish need good quality omega-3 fatty acids for good health, and unlike humans, their diets are naturally composed of far more of them than us - they have no use for saturated fats like we land beings eat - they go solid at water temp. and create problems in the fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Gian, > > 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or larger) gallon would be better. > > I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) > > I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them barking at each other. :o) > > Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. > ~Kai > > > > > > \\Steve// wrote: > > > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this aggression against any fish. > > > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a bubble nest should they be in the mood. > > > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. > > > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and also it will spice up his life. > > > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense of territory. > > > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your other tank(s). > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Gian wrote: > > > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). > > > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > > > -Gian > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50027	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

I would love a betta condo complex type of aquarium. One that has large compartments, but uses one filter, heater, etc. Does this exist and if so, where can I get one? or 2... ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 6:28:15 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Betta aquarium In my experience bettas are a lot more active and have more personality if you keep them warmer - 75 - 80 F range. If you have plenty of plants they'll add oxygen to the water and the fish should be ok. They do appreciate more room to swim, but especially the really extreme veils and halfmoon ones tend to get their fins nipped and torn in a community tank, even by what we think of as peaceful fish. The less fancy ones are great community tank occupants. Pet shop people give horrible advice about bettas! Not only do they try to sell way too small containers for them but they also say things like "they can live off plant roots" or "only feed them twice a week". I feed mine dry and frozen foods twice or 3 times a day and they are very healthy. The best bettas we have are the ones who lived outdoors and stuffed themselves with mosquito larvae all day long until they looked about to burst. Not that I recommend overfeeding them, they can eat themselves to death but you'll see a very noticable bulge before that happens. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) >best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers >like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to >keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because >they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When >I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive >that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it >could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more >shorter). > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his >aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and >floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta >tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need >for it). > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > -Gian > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50028	From: DeenerZ	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Put excess food in zip lock bags in the freezer to preserve it. I buy food in five lb amounts fro New life spectrum and store it this way. Mike G Sent from my iPhone On Jan 16, 2011, at 6:33 AM, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > I've heard you're supposed to buy new fish food every 3 months because the fats in them go rancid after being exposed to the air. I don't exactly do that, but I do keep most of my fish food in the freezer if I buy big amounts and keep small amounts out for fish food. After about a year I use the remaining fish food for feeding crickets or dog treats, depending on the size of it. > > Just like for humans, fish need good quality omega-3 fatty acids for good health, and unlike humans, their diets are naturally composed of far more of them than us - they have no use for saturated fats like we land beings eat - they go solid at water temp. and create problems in the fish. > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > > Gian, > > > > 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or larger) gallon would be better. > > > > I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) > > > > I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them barking at each other. :o) > > > > Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// wrote: > > > > > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this aggression against any fish. > > > > > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a bubble nest should they be in the mood. > > > > > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. > > > > > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and also it will spice up his life. > > > > > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense of territory. > > > > > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your other tank(s). > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > Gian wrote: > > > > > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more shorter). > > > > > > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > > > > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50029	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Haecklers is right. I never had much luck with a heater in my little gallon and a half tank, but my betta was much happier when I kept him warm. I was always keeping him in warm places. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laurie Alaimo" <environmom95112@...> ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 6:28:15 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Betta aquarium In my experience bettas are a lot more active and have more personality if you keep them warmer - 75 - 80 F range. If you have plenty of plants they'll add oxygen to the water and the fish should be ok. They do appreciate more room to swim, but especially the really extreme veils and halfmoon ones tend to get their fins nipped and torn in a community tank, even by what we think of as peaceful fish. The less fancy ones are great community tank occupants.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50030	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Mystery snails won't survive well in such a small tank with no air, mine all died when I tried to put one in with my betta, after losing two over night I decided it wasn't a good idea and I still have all my mystery snails in my 55 gallon tank where they thrive the best. Mystery snails need 2 gallons of water per snail as well... so it's a tad over crowded. Hopefully yours are able to get to the surface for air fast enough before they die. I also have plants in my 2 gallon jar that I keep my betta in, but as I said the snails died before they reached the surface for air. Amber On 1/16/2011 4:38 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Gian, > > 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or > larger) gallon would be better. > > I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with > the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two > Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) > > I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted > live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like > two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them > barking at each other. :o) > > Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a > bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. > ~Kai > > > \\Steve// wrote: > > > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will > do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. > Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression > to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this > aggression against any fish. > > > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need > an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a > bubble nest should they be in the mood. > > > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want > the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and > warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. > > > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the > tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and > also it will spice up his life. > > > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense > of territory. > > > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional > helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your > other tank(s). > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Gian wrote: > > > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta > splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept > in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked > some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they > don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and > they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net > about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that > condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them > because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their > lifespan more shorter). > > > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter > aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety > of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. > I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it > off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's > environment. > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > > > -Gian > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50031	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Pond snails and ramshorn snails haven't had any trouble surviving in betta "bowls" - 1-2 gallon non-aerated jars. I like the ramshorns the best but they're more fragile than the pond snails that multiply fast enough I don't mind the betta snacking on them (they can suck them right out of the shells!) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Mystery snails won't survive well in such a small tank with no air, mine > all died when I tried to put one in with my betta, after losing two over > night I decided it wasn't a good idea and I still have all my mystery > snails in my 55 gallon tank where they thrive the best. Mystery snails > need 2 gallons of water per snail as well... so it's a tad over crowded. > Hopefully yours are able to get to the surface for air fast enough > before they die. I also have plants in my 2 gallon jar that I keep my > betta in, but as I said the snails died before they reached the surface > for air. > > Amber > > On 1/16/2011 4:38 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > Gian, > > > > 1.5 LITER aquarium? Or 1.5 GALLON? 1.5 liter is too small. 1.5 (or > > larger) gallon would be better. > > > > I've had the best luck feeding then Tetramin Tropical GRANULES -- with > > the color-coded dark green lid. One 1.2oz container will feed two > > Bettas for most of their lives (about 2.5 years.) > > > > I have two 2-ish gallon tanks side by side. They each have a potted > > live plant. It's quite remarkable how canine the Bettas are -- like > > two neighbor dogs on either side of a fence. I can almost imagine them > > barking at each other. :o) > > > > Mom's Betta has a Mystery Snail as a tank-mate. Her first Betta was a > > bit of a bully toward the snail. This one is a lot friendlier. > > ~Kai > > > > > \\Steve// wrote: > > > > > > The more room you are able to give your betta, the better he will > > do. Look around for a 2.5-5.5 gallon (10-20 liter) tank or bowl. > > Bettas can be overly aggressive. Generally they keep this aggression > > to conspecifics (others of the same species), but some may use this > > aggression against any fish. > > > > > > Bettas originate in slow or still waters, so you do not really need > > an air pump to give him air or circulation. They can then build a > > bubble nest should they be in the mood. > > > > > > Keep the water at 75-78° F (24-26° C) and the tank covered. You want > > the airspace between the water surface and the cover to be humid and > > warm for when they breathe atmospheric air. > > > > > > Every once in a while you might place a mirror at the side of the > > tank so that he will display for you with flared fins and gills and > > also it will spice up his life. > > > > > > Also place a plant or two in the tank with him to give him a sense > > of territory. > > > > > > His diet should be a good quality flake food, with the occasional > > helping of live food. He will not eat much, so you can share with your > > other tank(s). > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > Gian wrote: > > > > > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta > > splendens) best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept > > in small containers like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked > > some shop owners on how to keep them and they keep on saying that they > > don't even need an air pump because they are labyrinth fishes, and > > they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When I browsed on the net > > about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive that > > condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them > > because it could make them prone to health problems (also making their > > lifespan more shorter). > > > > > > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter > > aquarium,because of his aggression. That aquarium contains a variety > > of plants like sagttaria and floating water plants like water lettuce. > > I also run an air pump in my betta tank but once in a while turn it > > off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need for it). > > > > > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's > > environment. > > > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50032	From: haecklers	Date: 1/16/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

You can use a hot glue gun or aquarium silicone to stick those plastic binder clips (you know, the kind that come in different colors and run the 11" side of the 8.5 X 11" sheets of paper) to the sides of the tank then you can put some "plastic cross-stitch canvas" from a craft store (costs $0.49 a sheet) in as a removable divider. If for some reason you need to make it so they can't see each other for a bit you can put in a solid plastic divider but then they don't get the aeration, etc., but sometimes that is necessary for torn fins to heal or for them to recover after breeding. For our bettas, we're using the cross-stitch canvas to make betta barracks, cutting it up and hot glue-ing it into 4" X 4" cells so the nippiest bettas can have the benefits of a tank but not remove the ventral fins of their siblings. They get the back top half of the tank and the females and more peaceful bettas are getting the rest of the tank. Just remember all bettas need access to the top of the water, so there's a limit to how much you can sub divide a tank. I've made a refugium in my 55 gallon tank out of the plastic cross-stitch canvas to have an area to grow plants and duckweed without the tinfoil barbs eating it. It grows so well in the rich water that I can feed them from it every 2-3 days. It now has a wayward danio female and a betta fry living there as well, and once I test the water for a few weeks to be sure that the nitrates are low enough, I may put some cherry shrimp in there as well. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > I would love a betta condo complex type of aquarium. One that has large > compartments, but uses one filter, heater, etc. Does this exist and if so, > where can I get one? or 2... > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, January 16, 2011 6:28:15 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Betta aquarium > > In my experience bettas are a lot more active and have more personality if you > keep them warmer - 75 - 80 F range. If you have plenty of plants they'll add > oxygen to the water and the fish should be ok. They do appreciate more room to > swim, but especially the really extreme veils and halfmoon ones tend to get > their fins nipped and torn in a community tank, even by what we think of as > peaceful fish. The less fancy ones are great community tank occupants. > > Pet shop people give horrible advice about bettas! Not only do they try to sell > way too small containers for them but they also say things like "they can live > off plant roots" or "only feed them twice a week". I feed mine dry and frozen > foods twice or 3 times a day and they are very healthy. The best bettas we have > are the ones who lived outdoors and stuffed themselves with mosquito larvae all > day long until they looked about to burst. Not that I recommend overfeeding > them, they can eat themselves to death but you'll see a very noticable bulge > before that happens. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@> wrote: > > > > I would just like to know what environment suits my betta (Betta splendens) > >best. Usually, when I go to the pet shop, I see them kept in small containers > >like plastic cups, jars etc. I have already asked some shop owners on how to > >keep them and they keep on saying that they don't even need an air pump because > >they are labyrinth fishes, and they would do fine in a small bowl or vase. When > >I browsed on the net about this matter, I learned that yes, bettas can survive > >that condition, but that type of environment isn't too good for them because it > >could make them prone to health problems (also making their lifespan more > >shorter). > > > > > > > > I one red betta at home and I keep him in a 1.5 litter aquarium,because of his > >aggression. That aquarium contains a variety of plants like sagttaria and > >floating water plants like water lettuce. I also run an air pump in my betta > >tank but once in a while turn it off to save electricity (seeing the lesser need > >for it). > > > > I would just like to ask for any suggestion regarding a betta's environment. > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50033	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: male krib not in the mood?

Thanks for some of the ideas I've gotten back so far... I have removed the neons, am down to only the 3 Kribs (which are about 2 inches long), the 2 Cherry barbs, the Angel (which is a big 4") and 2 little tiny Ottos. Had my water tested--PH is 7.8, low ammonia normal Nitrates levels, and hardness of 75mg/L. No other bad chemicals... --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Sounds as if you may be experiencing some issues with tank space and territory, possibly water quality too? That tank is quite crowded if those kribs are full grown, I'm assuming the angelfish is not full grown... Another possibility is that the kribs are not fully mature yet, so still unsure of what they're doing. I would suggest getting them into a bigger tank with more cave options and territory. > Can you tell us how big the fish are? (in particular the angelfish and the kribs) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@> wrote: > > > > Hi all--I'm new to this group. I have a beautiful trio (1 male, 2 females) of kribensis in a community tank with 1 big angelfish, a few neons, a pair of cherry barbs and a few ottos. The females are brillantly colored, as is the male. I've noticed that both females have bellies that are almost v-shaped, and I'm thinking they are getting ready to spawn? They are posturing to each other, but no violence, and seem to be trying to get the male's attention by wiggling in front of him but he just nips at them and scares them off. > > I do have a little cave decoration in there and the tank is a well planted 20 gallon. I'm wondering how I can condition these cuties a little more, or if/when the male might try spawning with them. I don't anticipate keeping live babies in that community tank but am wondering if anyone else has had this happen? > > Thanks for any info!!! > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50034	From: LindaS	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Gian - Betta Aquarium

Hi Gian, I'm doing your name from memory, I hope that's right. LOL! I decided to get betta's again last year. I had them in my early days, and suddenly began to try them again. I've had hits and misses since then. First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta. I keep mine in a large glass bowl that is probably 1 1/1 Gallons. They like anything in their bowl plastic or real, I have used (organic) lettuce leaves and bamboo leaves that are long and slender, and these are for them to 'rest'. I always keep real rocks with some glass ornamentals on the bottom. I use the pellets too, and they really do help with the color. They become beautiful in color with the pelets, and I have had more success with those than even the frozen shrimp, which most won't touch. I think they are raised with the pellets, and they are cleaner for the jar. I went through a cold spell and lost my house heater for a long time this winter. I put a candle between the bowls with a pie tin overhead, and they would stay right by where the heat was coming in. I would actually dump out half their water in the morning, it was so cold, and fill the half with really hot treated (for chlorine) water so the temperature would get warm for them. It seemed a bit rough to do that, but they both have survived it. Then, I'd put the candle on with the metal pie tin overhead. I had a beautiful blue male that seemed and was very mellow. He made huge bubble nests, and I in my empathy for him thought he was lonesome and could breed. So, I got a female, and since he was aclimated to his environment, I thought I'd put the female in his bowl. I was concentrating more on protecting the female than the male, but to my surprise the female dove right to him and pulled off his gill. He only lived about a week more. I had put a bridge in thre for her to hide, all the things I read did not happen. So, I will never try breeding again. It was heartbreaking. I let her live out her life too, probably about 6 months, but never will get a female again. I don't know if this is normal for them or not, but don't put any together if you enjoy the fish and think of it's well being. I was thinking a a snail also, but recently had a family member buy a snail and bring in a bacteria that killed the two fish they had in their aquarium for a few years. So, That's out now and I'm happy in knowing they are happy being loners and alone. I have recently seen a new keeper for them that is square and plastic, and the fish can be side by side and see each other. It looked to be maybe a gallon on each side. Phew! This got long! But hope it helps. Oh, One more thing, in summer you can save a bit and maybe even have a healthier fish by letting household water sit at least 24 hours and it declorinates itself in that time. I do that in summmer and don't need to use any chemicals that way. I also put them in the sun in the summer but always provide a shield of somekind for them to get in the shade if they need to. Be sure to test the water if you do that, because it can get very hot. I only put them out there for 2-3 hours. LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50035	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium

Very often I with hold posting when I feel I do not know enough or if I know someone with more knowledge can answer better but in this case I need to speak out. Yes they are Labyrinth breathers but they SHOULD have a filter if possible as well as a heater. Six month is not a normal life span for a betta. With a heater and filter, proper water changes and healthy diet you should get years and not months with a betta. You wrote "First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta." -----Original Message----- From: LindaS <maxinatrillion@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:09 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium Hi Gian, I'm doing your name from memory, I hope that's right. LOL! I decided to get betta's again last year. I had them in my early days, and suddenly began to try them again. I've had hits and misses since then. First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta. I keep mine in a large glass bowl that is probably 1 1/1 Gallons. They like anything in their bowl plastic or real, I have used (organic) lettuce leaves and bamboo leaves that are long and slender, and these are for them to 'rest'. I always keep real rocks with some glass ornamentals on the bottom. I use the pellets too, and they really do help with the color. They become beautiful in color with the pelets, and I have had more success with those than even the frozen shrimp, which most won't touch. I think they are raised with the pellets, and they are cleaner for the jar. I went through a cold spell and lost my house heater for a long time this winter. I put a candle between the bowls with a pie tin overhead, and they would stay right by where the heat was coming in. I would actually dump out half their water in the morning, it was so cold, and fill the half with really hot treated (for chlorine) water so the temperature would get warm for them. It seemed a bit rough to do that, but they both have survived it. Then, I'd put the candle on with the metal pie tin overhead. I had a beautiful blue male that seemed and was very mellow. He made huge bubble nests, and I in my empathy for him thought he was lonesome and could breed. So, I got a female, and since he was aclimated to his environment, I thought I'd put the female in his bowl. I was concentrating more on protecting the female than the male, but to my surprise the female dove right to him and pulled off his gill. He only lived about a week more. I had put a bridge in thre for her to hide, all the things I read did not happen. So, I will never try breeding again. It was heartbreaking. I let her live out her life too, probably about 6 months, but never will get a female again. I don't know if this is normal for them or not, but don't put any together if you enjoy the fish and think of it's well being. I was thinking a a snail also, but recently had a family member buy a snail and bring in a bacteria that killed the two fish they had in their aquarium for a few years. So, That's out now and I'm happy in knowing they are happy being loners and alone. I have recently seen a new keeper for them that is square and plastic, and the fish can be side by side and see each other. It looked to be maybe a gallon on each side. Phew! This got long! But hope it helps. Oh, One more thing, in summer you can save a bit and maybe even have a healthier fish by letting household water sit at least 24 hours and it declorinates itself in that time. I do that in summmer and don't need to use any chemicals that way. I also put them in the sun in the summer but always provide a shield of somekind for them to get in the shade if they need to. Be sure to test the water if you do that, because it can get very hot. I only put them out there for 2-3 hours. LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50036	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Betta aquarium

Thanks for the advice.......Though actually I really don't need a heater right now because its very warm here in the Philippines. Though sometimes I adjust the water temp. to make him more active...Thanks again!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50037	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Betta

Thanks for the advice guys! I really appreciated your comments and suggestions! Happy fish-keeping!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50038	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium

The use of filters with bettas is optional. It depends on the size of the container, the number and amount of water changes, the number of fish living in the same water, etc. If a filter is used, then it should be set at a very low flow rate. Bettas come from slow moving or still waters. They do not like a lot of current. If the current is too fast for them, they will find a spot where the current is low and seldom venture from that spot. If there is no such spot, they will not fare well. Heaters are also optional, for all fish quarters. If the air temperature where the tank is located is enough to keep the temperature you need, why bother? If the air temperature is going to fall below optimum temperature, you need to consider how far it will fall, and how quickly the water temperature will fall to match the air temperature. If the air temperature is lower than the optimum temperature for your tank you need a heater. If the temperature is expected to go below the optimum temperature for too long or to far below it, a heater is in order. In both cases, the heater needs to be properly sized so that it will heat rather than attempt to make a fish soup. This may mean a tank will need two heaters of a combined wattage equal to that you need. I've been into many a fish room with nary a heater in sight. Row upon row of tanks with no heaters. This is because the room is kept at a temperature within the optimal range that is needed. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 5:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium Very often I with hold posting when I feel I do not know enough or if I know someone with more knowledge can answer better but in this case I need to speak out. Yes they are Labyrinth breathers but they SHOULD have a filter if possible as well as a heater. Six month is not a normal life span for a betta. With a heater and filter, proper water changes and healthy diet you should get years and not months with a betta. You wrote "First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta." -----Original Message----- From: LindaS <maxinatrillion@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:09 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium Hi Gian, I'm doing your name from memory, I hope that's right. LOL! I decided to get betta's again last year. I had them in my early days, and suddenly began to try them again. I've had hits and misses since then. First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta. I keep mine in a large glass bowl that is probably 1 1/1 Gallons. They like anything in their bowl plastic or real, I have used (organic) lettuce leaves and bamboo leaves that are long and slender, and these are for them to 'rest'. I always keep real rocks with some glass ornamentals on the bottom. I use the pellets too, and they really do help with the color. They become beautiful in color with the pelets, and I have had more success with those than even the frozen shrimp, which most won't touch. I think they are raised with the pellets, and they are cleaner for the jar. I went through a cold spell and lost my house heater for a long time this winter. I put a candle between the bowls with a pie tin overhead, and they would stay right by where the heat was coming in. I would actually dump out half their water in the morning, it was so cold, and fill the half with really hot treated (for chlorine) water so the temperature would get warm for them. It seemed a bit rough to do that, but they both have survived it. Then, I'd put the candle on with the metal pie tin overhead. I had a beautiful blue male that seemed and was very mellow. He made huge bubble nests, and I in my empathy for him thought he was lonesome and could breed. So, I got a female, and since he was aclimated to his environment, I thought I'd put the female in his bowl. I was concentrating more on protecting the female than the male, but to my surprise the female dove right to him and pulled off his gill. He only lived about a week more. I had put a bridge in thre for her to hide, all the things I read did not happen. So, I will never try breeding again. It was heartbreaking. I let her live out her life too, probably about 6 months, but never will get a female again. I don't know if this is normal for them or not, but don't put any together if you enjoy the fish and think of it's well being. I was thinking a a snail also, but recently had a family member buy a snail and bring in a bacteria that killed the two fish they had in their aquarium for a few years. So, That's out now and I'm happy in knowing they are happy being loners and alone. I have recently seen a new keeper for them that is square and plastic, and the fish can be side by side and see each other. It looked to be maybe a gallon on each side. Phew! This got long! But hope it helps. Oh, One more thing, in summer you can save a bit and maybe even have a healthier fish by letting household water sit at least 24 hours and it declorinates itself in that time. I do that in summmer and don't need to use any chemicals that way. I also put them in the sun in the summer but always provide a shield of somekind for them to get in the shade if they need to. Be sure to test the water if you do that, because it can get very hot. I only put them out there for 2-3 hours. LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50039	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium

I have heaters in my tanks (except for my 10 gallons or less tanks), but the heaters are only there for "just in case" my house temps are not at the right temp for some reason. Typically I keep my house rather warm (compared to most people) in the 78 range. So really my tanks are usually 78-80 at the most (and that's typically in the summer when my house gets warmer than I'd prefer). My betta's are all quite happy without heaters in their tanks, and I don't have a filter in my betta bowl either, but my 10 gallon tanks have small HOB filters. I've been considering switching them to sponge filters so that there isn't as much current in the 10 gallon tanks, but my giant betta doesn't seem to mind the HOB filter as much as my last "regular" betta did (he would stay on the other side of the tank, and would display at the filter intake, not sure if he thought it was another male betta or what, but it often sucked his fins into it). Needless to say he wasn't a very pretty crown tail betta for long ;) LOL. Amber On 1/17/2011 2:36 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > The use of filters with bettas is optional. It depends on the size of > the container, the number and amount of water changes, the number of > fish living in the same water, etc. If a filter is used, then it > should be set at a very low flow rate. Bettas come from slow moving or > still waters. They do not like a lot of current. If the current is too > fast for them, they will find a spot where the current is low and > seldom venture from that spot. If there is no such spot, they will not > fare well. > > Heaters are also optional, for all fish quarters. If the air > temperature where the tank is located is enough to keep the > temperature you need, why bother? If the air temperature is going to > fall below optimum temperature, you need to consider how far it will > fall, and how quickly the water temperature will fall to match the air > temperature. If the air temperature is lower than the optimum > temperature for your tank you need a heater. If the temperature is > expected to go below the optimum temperature for too long or to far > below it, a heater is in order. In both cases, the heater needs to be > properly sized so that it will heat rather than attempt to make a fish > soup. This may mean a tank will need two heaters of a combined wattage > equal to that you need. > > I've been into many a fish room with nary a heater in sight. Row upon > row of tanks with no heaters. This is because the room is kept at a > temperature within the optimal range that is needed. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 5:42 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium > > Very often I with hold posting when I feel I do not know enough or if I > know someone with more knowledge can answer better but in this case I > need to speak out. > > Yes they are Labyrinth breathers but they SHOULD have a filter if > possible as well as a heater. > Six month is not a normal life span for a betta. With a heater and > filter, proper water changes and healthy diet you should get years and > not months with a betta. > > You wrote > "First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, > but a filter should not be used with Betta." > > -----Original Message----- > From: LindaS <maxinatrillion@... > <mailto:maxinatrillion%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:09 pm > Subject: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium > > Hi Gian, I'm doing your name from memory, I hope that's right. LOL! > I decided to get betta's again last year. I had them in my early days, > and suddenly began to try them again. I've had hits and misses since > then. > First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, > but a filter should not be used with Betta. I keep mine in a large > glass bowl that is probably 1 1/1 Gallons. They like anything in their > bowl plastic or real, I have used (organic) lettuce leaves and bamboo > leaves that are long and slender, and these are for them to 'rest'. I > always keep real rocks with some glass ornamentals on the bottom. I > use the pellets too, and they really do help with the color. They > become beautiful in color with the pelets, and I have had more success > with those than even the frozen shrimp, which most won't touch. I think > they are raised with the pellets, and they are cleaner for the jar. > I went through a cold spell and lost my house heater for a long time > this winter. I put a candle between the bowls with a pie tin overhead, > and they would stay right by where the heat was coming in. I would > actually dump out half their water in the morning, it was so cold, and > fill the half with really hot treated (for chlorine) water so the > temperature would get warm for them. It seemed a bit rough to do that, > but they both have survived it. Then, I'd put the candle on with the > metal pie tin overhead. > I had a beautiful blue male that seemed and was very mellow. He made > huge bubble nests, and I in my empathy for him thought he was lonesome > and could breed. So, I got a female, and since he was aclimated to his > environment, I thought I'd put the female in his bowl. I was > concentrating more on protecting the female than the male, but to my > surprise the female dove right to him and pulled off his gill. He only > lived about a week more. I had put a bridge in thre for her to hide, > all the things I read did not happen. So, I will never try breeding > again. It was heartbreaking. I let her live out her life too, > probably about 6 months, but never will get a female again. I don't > know if this is normal for them or not, but don't put any together if > you enjoy the fish and think of it's well being. > I was thinking a a snail also, but recently had a family member buy a > snail and bring in a bacteria that killed the two fish they had in > their aquarium for a few years. So, That's out now and I'm happy in > knowing they are happy being loners and alone. I have recently seen a > new keeper for them that is square and plastic, and the fish can be > side by side and see each other. It looked to be maybe a gallon on each > side. > Phew! This got long! But hope it helps. Oh, One more thing, in summer > you can save a bit and maybe even have a healthier fish by letting > household water sit at least 24 hours and it declorinates itself in > that time. I do that in summmer and don't need to use any chemicals > that way. I also put them in the sun in the summer but always provide a > shield of somekind for them to get in the shade if they need to. Be > sure to test the water if you do that, because it can get very hot. > I only put them out there for 2-3 hours. > LinS > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50040	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Marineland LED Bubble Wands

Thanks for your feedback Sam, Amber and Steve, While the idea of DIY is a good one I do not have the time which is why I was looking for an already made option. After reading all of your comments I am just going to wait a bit longer until I can get a new hood with some built in lunar lights that hopefully won't be as bright and not disturb the fish. Thanks again for your feedback, 'til next time Alex Semper Fi -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 4:58 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Marineland LED Bubble Wands I don't have that particular item, but I do have a light that bubbles (it's a small round LED submersible light that comes in a few different colors). I noticed that mine didn't last for very long, it no longer bubbles properly. I have to remove the whole unit from the tank then put it back to get it to start bubbling, then it stops after 15 minutes or so again. I ended up just removing it and putting it away somewhere. Keep in mind that if you're going to have more than a couple of those that each one will need it's own electrical outlet/plugin so make sure you have enough extra plugin spots on your outlet. I also found that the lighted bubbles scare most of my fish as well, so they always stayed away from it when it was bubbling, but each fish is different some fish like to play in the bubbles (such as Oscars). I wish they had some way of designing more things with less plugs. As it is I don't have enough plugs for all the electrical items that I have in all my tanks, and if I had them all in one room I'd DEFINITELY not have enough for all the tanks I have, LOL. I'm sure my house is a fire trap with all the fish tanks and cords all over. Amber On 1/7/2011 6:09 AM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello and Happy new year everyone. > > I am thinking of adding the Marineland LED Bubble Wands > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid= > 19788 > http://preview.tinyurl.com/24vns34 > > Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these? > > I am adding it to my 80gl tank measuring 25 x 36 x 18. Any suggestions > as to how many I should use? I was thinking of one for each side and > one for the back. > > Alex > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50041	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: Re: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium

Azoo has a small adjustable flow rate filter. It is for up to 5 gal. I used this in my 2.5 gal tank and kept the flow at minimum. It still filtered and there was very little disturbance in the water. Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:36:12 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium The use of filters with bettas is optional. It depends on the size of the container, the number and amount of water changes, the number of fish living in the same water, etc. If a filter is used, then it should be set at a very low flow rate. Bettas come from slow moving or still waters. They do not like a lot of current. If the current is too fast for them, they will find a spot where the current is low and seldom venture from that spot. If there is no such spot, they will not fare well. Heaters are also optional, for all fish quarters. If the air temperature where the tank is located is enough to keep the temperature you need, why bother? If the air temperature is going to fall below optimum temperature, you need to consider how far it will fall, and how quickly the water temperature will fall to match the air temperature. If the air temperature is lower than the optimum temperature for your tank you need a heater. If the temperature is expected to go below the optimum temperature for too long or to far below it, a heater is in order. In both cases, the heater needs to be properly sized so that it will heat rather than attempt to make a fish soup. This may mean a tank will need two heaters of a combined wattage equal to that you need. I've been into many a fish room with nary a heater in sight. Row upon row of tanks with no heaters. This is because the room is kept at a temperature within the optimal range that is needed. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 5:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Do it right! Re: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium Very often I with hold posting when I feel I do not know enough or if I know someone with more knowledge can answer better but in this case I need to speak out. Yes they are Labyrinth breathers but they SHOULD have a filter if possible as well as a heater. Six month is not a normal life span for a betta. With a heater and filter, proper water changes and healthy diet you should get years and not months with a betta. You wrote "First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta." -----Original Message----- From: LindaS <maxinatrillion@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:09 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Gian - Betta Aquarium Hi Gian, I'm doing your name from memory, I hope that's right. LOL! I decided to get betta's again last year. I had them in my early days, and suddenly began to try them again. I've had hits and misses since then. First, I've forgotten why, I think it's because it's an air breather, but a filter should not be used with Betta. I keep mine in a large glass bowl that is probably 1 1/1 Gallons. They like anything in their bowl plastic or real, I have used (organic) lettuce leaves and bamboo leaves that are long and slender, and these are for them to 'rest'. I always keep real rocks with some glass ornamentals on the bottom. I use the pellets too, and they really do help with the color. They become beautiful in color with the pelets, and I have had more success with those than even the frozen shrimp, which most won't touch. I think they are raised with the pellets, and they are cleaner for the jar. I went through a cold spell and lost my house heater for a long time this winter. I put a candle between the bowls with a pie tin overhead, and they would stay right by where the heat was coming in. I would actually dump out half their water in the morning, it was so cold, and fill the half with really hot treated (for chlorine) water so the temperature would get warm for them. It seemed a bit rough to do that, but they both have survived it. Then, I'd put the candle on with the metal pie tin overhead. I had a beautiful blue male that seemed and was very mellow. He made huge bubble nests, and I in my empathy for him thought he was lonesome and could breed. So, I got a female, and since he was aclimated to his environment, I thought I'd put the female in his bowl. I was concentrating more on protecting the female than the male, but to my surprise the female dove right to him and pulled off his gill. He only lived about a week more. I had put a bridge in thre for her to hide, all the things I read did not happen. So, I will never try breeding again. It was heartbreaking. I let her live out her life too, probably about 6 months, but never will get a female again. I don't know if this is normal for them or not, but don't put any together if you enjoy the fish and think of it's well being. I was thinking a a snail also, but recently had a family member buy a snail and bring in a bacteria that killed the two fish they had in their aquarium for a few years. So, That's out now and I'm happy in knowing they are happy being loners and alone. I have recently seen a new keeper for them that is square and plastic, and the fish can be side by side and see each other. It looked to be maybe a gallon on each side. Phew! This got long! But hope it helps. Oh, One more thing, in summer you can save a bit and maybe even have a healthier fish by letting household water sit at least 24 hours and it declorinates itself in that time. I do that in summmer and don't need to use any chemicals that way. I also put them in the sun in the summer but always provide a shield of somekind for them to get in the shade if they need to. Be sure to test the water if you do that, because it can get very hot. I only put them out there for 2-3 hours. LinS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50042	From: PaulB	Date: 1/17/2011
Subject: wanted - a new home for my fish. I need a 55 gallon tank and stand (

I live in Henderson KY and my fish are outgrowing my 30 gallon fish tank. I have found someone that can use my tank when I get a replacement. (on freecycle) I have given away all my smaller fish tanks this way. I need a 55 gallon or larger fish tank with stand and any extra's you might be willing to part with. Dirty is ok as long as it does not leak. Thank you for your help and may God Bless you all! Paul Bickwermert 270-570-1785

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50043	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Betta

Just this afternoon, I bought a female for my male........but just the time I added the female in the tank, they started to flare at each other, but the surprising thing is THE FEMALE BETTA SEEMS TO BE THE ONE DOMINATING THE FIGHT! Its my first time to keep females so would it be alright if I will keep the two bettas in the same aquarium.(for now I kept the female in a partition.) Your help will be highly appreciated! thanks! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50044	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta

They are called Siamese FIGHTING fish for a reason. They will fight to the death. You cannot put another Betta with a male Betta. If you want them to mate, you must monitor them carefully for the SHORT time that they are together or else they will KILL each other. Separate them. Keep them separated. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Just this afternoon, I bought a female for my male........but just the time I added the female in the tank, they started to flare at each other, but the surprising thing is THE FEMALE BETTA SEEMS TO BE THE ONE DOMINATING THE FIGHT! > > Its my first time to keep females so would it be alright if I will keep the two bettas in the same aquarium.(for now I kept the female in a partition.) > > > Your help will be highly appreciated! > thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50045	From: haecklers	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta

NO, they need to be separated! I've heard of female bettas killing male bettas, and of course the males killing the females. They won't learn to live together, one will die. Sometimes in a really huge tank two bettas that grew up together can learn to live on opposite ends of a tank, but introducing a new betta into another's territory is nearly always fatal in short order. There is a kind, betta imbellis, called by some the "peaceful betta" where you can keep a trio in a large tank, one male and two females is the ratio I've seen suggested. But you're not likely to find one of those in a pet shop. And some betta breeders have kept a spawn together, only removing the biters, and have wound up with several less aggressive males who can live together and live with the females, but introducing new fish is still a bad idea. We had a juvenile male who didn't seem to be aggressive at all and was allowed to stay in with the rest far past where most would be. I'm glad you gave a female betta a home, tho. They are awesome, intelligent, and interesting fish in their own right. We enjoy our female bettas as much as the males. As they get older their fins do get pretty long and if they're happy they're almost as colorful as the males. The fish store ones are puny and faded compared to the full glory of an adult female betta in a community tank of peaceful fish. Compared to the males they get very plump with stocky bodies. Ours defend themselves against fish their size or smaller but usually yield to larger fish. They aren't aggressive at all with other fish but will establish a pecking order with other female bettas, or so I've heard. I've only tried evenly-matched female bettas, and they fight off and on until one stays hiding and the other enjoys the run of the tank. If you want to try breeding them, this is the best article I've seen, really clear directions. http://www.flippersandfins.net/bettabreedingarticle.htm --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Just this afternoon, I bought a female for my male........but just the time I added the female in the tank, they started to flare at each other, but the surprising thing is THE FEMALE BETTA SEEMS TO BE THE ONE DOMINATING THE FIGHT! > > Its my first time to keep females so would it be alright if I will keep the two bettas in the same aquarium.(for now I kept the female in a partition.) > > > Your help will be highly appreciated! > thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50046	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta

Female bettas can be just as aggressive as males, sometimes even more so. Keeping them together long term seldom works out. A divider can work between them as long as neither can jump over to the other side at will. They have some wonderful jumping skills. (The name betta means "puddle jumper") Its also a good idea to decorate along the divider so they have a break from being able to see each other when needed. If they can see each other, even if its not all the time you will notice the flaring at each other, and the male will likely build a bubble nest in preparation for breeding. Should you choose to attempt breeding them I would strongly suggest you do plenty of research beforehand. Expect to need a lot of space and a lot of time to devote to the fish and the fry if you choose the breeding route. Once the eggs go into the nest the female would still need to be removed to avoid conflict as she tries to eat the eggs and the male protects them. If you don't intend to breed then they would both do best long term in separate tanks/bowls. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Just this afternoon, I bought a female for my male........but just the time I added the female in the tank, they started to flare at each other, but the surprising thing is THE FEMALE BETTA SEEMS TO BE THE ONE DOMINATING THE FIGHT! > > Its my first time to keep females so would it be alright if I will keep the two bettas in the same aquarium.(for now I kept the female in a partition.) > > > Your help will be highly appreciated! > thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50047	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Question about Dwarf Anubias

I purchased a Dwarf Anubias approximatly 1.5 years ago. The leaves all rotted off and I thought that I had lost the plant. However when I replanted some plants I came across the root of the anubias. It was still green and looked healthy so I replanted it. It has stems approximatly 1 inch long but no leaves. Do you think it ever will? I know they are slow growing but just hoping. Thank you.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50048	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: dwarf gouramis

hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50049	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50050	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

what about neon or any kind of tetra? & and there will be albino cory catfish in there with them but what should i feed them? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50051	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Emma, Cory cats should be in a group of no less than five. Some say ten or more. if you were to get five dwarf corydoras it would be a smaller biological load on the tank than five adult albino. Could you provide us with a total list of fish you are interested in putting in the tank at the moment? -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2011 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis what about neon or any kind of tetra? & and there will be albino cory catfish in there with them but what should i feed them? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50052	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

okay hears the list some cory cats, neon tetras,silver tip tetra, and a male and female dwarf gouramis. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:53:42 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis Emma, Cory cats should be in a group of no less than five. Some say ten or more. if you were to get five dwarf corydoras it would be a smaller biological load on the tank than five adult albino. Could you provide us with a total list of fish you are interested in putting in the tank at the moment? -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Jan 20, 2011 2:35 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis what about neon or any kind of tetra? & and there will be albino cory catfish in there with them but what should i feed them? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50053	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis are one of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, the best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami once in my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I decided to put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to be quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long flowing fins. Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the regular fish food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a week (just to boost them up). Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the ones I see at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it in a community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it and, they should be inaggressive. -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50054	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

I also have neons and a cory - everyone is happy - just regular flakes and I feed them tubifex worms dried every few days Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:35:39 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis what about neon or any kind of tetra? & and there will be albino cory catfish in there with them but what should i feed them? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50055	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get some fry. ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis are one of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, the best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami once in my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I decided to put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to be quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long flowing fins. Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the regular fish food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a week (just to boost them up). Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the ones I see at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it in a community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it and, they should be inaggressive. -Gian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50056	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. Amber On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > some fry. > > ________________________________ > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > are one of > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > the best > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > once in my > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to put > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > be quite > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing fins. > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > to boost them up). > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > in a > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > should be inaggressive. > > -Gian > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50057	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

okay so do you think i could put gouramis in with the both? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:59:02 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I also have neons and a cory - everyone is happy - just regular flakes and I feed them tubifex worms dried every few days Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 14:35:39 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis what about neon or any kind of tetra? & and there will be albino cory catfish in there with them but what should i feed them? ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:05:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis I've had both dwarf gold and 3 spot gouramis - they chase other fish some of the time but I use them in a community tank to keeo the livebearer population in check - they like to snack on small babies like guppies Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:47:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] dwarf gouramis hi every body i have a few ?s about dwarf gouramis 1.could they be housed with guppies? ? number 2. what to feed them? and ? number 3. what other fish can be housed with them? every body sing this song dodadodaall the doda day long [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50058	From: Ray	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: Betta

I don't know where you read that meaning for the name, "Betta," but I'm afraid you were misinformed. The name, "Betta," is derived from a local native Malay name, "Ikan bettah," which mean "persistent fish" (as in biting -- persistently biting, not persistently jumping). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Female bettas can be just as aggressive as males, sometimes even more so. Keeping them together long term seldom works out. A divider can work between them as long as neither can jump over to the other side at will. They have some wonderful jumping skills. (The name betta means "puddle jumper") Its also a good idea to decorate along the divider so they have a break from being able to see each other when needed. > > If they can see each other, even if its not all the time you will notice the flaring at each other, and the male will likely build a bubble nest in preparation for breeding. Should you choose to attempt breeding them I would strongly suggest you do plenty of research beforehand. Expect to need a lot of space and a lot of time to devote to the fish and the fry if you choose the breeding route. Once the eggs go into the nest the female would still need to be removed to avoid conflict as she tries to eat the eggs and the male protects them. If you don't intend to breed then they would both do best long term in separate tanks/bowls. > > Dawn > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@> wrote: > > > > Just this afternoon, I bought a female for my male........but just the time I added the female in the tank, they started to flare at each other, but the surprising thing is THE FEMALE BETTA SEEMS TO BE THE ONE DOMINATING THE FIGHT! > > > > Its my first time to keep females so would it be alright if I will keep the two bettas in the same aquarium.(for now I kept the female in a partition.) > > > > > > Your help will be highly appreciated! > > thanks! > > > > -Gian > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50059	From: Ray	Date: 1/20/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of the more common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of varieties of some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all of them, even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave differently from one another of that same species. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis are one of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, the best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami once in my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I decided to put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to be quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long flowing fins. > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the regular fish food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a week (just to boost them up). > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the ones I see at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it in a community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it and, they should be inaggressive. > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50060	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Top Five Aquariums in the US

http://blog.cheapoair.com/news/top-five-aquariums-in-the-us.aspx http://tinyurl.com/5wgq57l Top Five Aquariums in the US January 19, 2011 by Stefanie Fauquet A trip to the aquarium can be fun for the whole family If you're looking for an affordable family-friendly activity for your next vacation, check out the local aquarium. You'll find that each aquarium varies in the amount and type of marine animals they house. Since most aquariums are indoors, they're also great for rainy and snowy days. Check out our picks for the top five aquariums in the United States: Monterey Bay Aquarium (Monterey, California): Once the site of a sardine cannery, the Monterey Bay Aquarium is now the home of 550 species of plants and animals. The aquarium is located on the coast of Monterey Bay, which allows for spectacular views of marine life in their natural habitat. Inside, there are over 100 tanks featuring Giant Pacific Octopus, Sea Otters, Seahorses and Jellyfish. Tickets are $29.95 for adults and $19.95 for children 3-12. [The four other aquariums can be found at the link above.] \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50061	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

i was going to get male and female together. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. Amber On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > some fry. > > ________________________________ > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > are one of > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > the best > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > once in my > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to put > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > be quite > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing fins. > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > to boost them up). > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > in a > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > should be inaggressive. > > -Gian > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50062	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of the more common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of varieties of some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all of them, even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave differently from one another of that same species. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis are one >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, the >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami once in >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I decided to >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to be >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long flowing >fins. > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the regular fish >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a week (just >to boost them up). > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the ones I see >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it in a >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it and, they >should be inaggressive. > > -Gian > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50063	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50064	From: Ray	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

As the Subject Line of this thread is "Dwarf Gouramis," I'm assuming that you're asking whether Angelfish are "doable" with this species. Otherwise, since I'm addressing Gian's post on Gouramis as a whole, I'm finding his statements vague as they don't pertain to all Gourami species -- and when they do, there are must be gradients in his assessments (which he left out) since the qualities of Gouramis vary with the species. As for whether Dwarf Gouramis and Angelfish can be mixed, that possibility remains, depending on the size of the tank. For one thing, just for physical requirements, Angelfish can normally reach 8" high at maturity and will need an appropriately sized tank to comfortably house them -- and Veiltail Angels get much taller. It's generally recommended for two Angels to be given at least 20 gallons just for these two fish -- then, the consideration must be given for any additional fish beyond this. Then, while Dwarf Gouramis were noted as being a non-aggressive community tank occupant some years back, more recent reports on them seem to indicate that at least some of them have taken on the more belligerent behavior of some of their larger relatives. While this observation may or may not be indicative of this species demeanor, still, it must be taken into consideration when mixing these species when the possibility could arise of your obtaining one or more of these Gouramis with an attitude problem. Usually, this behavior stems from territorialism and the recognition of imaginary "bounderies" having been drawn somewhere in the aquarium that an occupant can get upset about if another fish crosses it. A dispute can then come up, with the resultant chase of the intruder -- with the chance of fin or bodily damage -- to the other side of this line. Seldom in this species, even when a territory issue comes to the forefront, does it behave aggressively out of pure meanness but instead just to protect that area which is claimed as its own. Therefore, a larger (rather then too small) tank will allow much more limits to these imagined bounderies, eliminating confrontations once the inhabitants learn where not to "trespass" and a peaceful coexistance can be expected. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50065	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Cookie cutter shark

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3565&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_21_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Cookie_cutter_shark&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4hd7rpj [Photos and video available at site] Weird fish of the week: Cookie cutter shark On first inspection the Cookie cutter (Isistius brasiliensis) looks an unlikely terror of the deep, but looks can be deceptive! Cruising through the moonlit sea, a tuna spots the tell tale shape of a small fish silhouetted against the oceans surface and moves in for an easy meal. What happens next isnít exactly what it expected. At the last moment the predator's meal disappears and suddenly it's more a case of 'the biter bit' as something small and toothy clamps onto its side, bites hard, spins and disappears into the night leaving it with an empty stomach and a nasty circular wound on its side. This scenario plays out time after time, with whales, dolphins, sharks and seals as well as fish the unwitting dupes of a weird but effective feeding strategy that makes Isistius brasiliensis a success across most of the world's oceans. Growing to around 50cm/19in long, the Cookie cutter shark's cigar-shaped body has greatly reduced finnage other than its tail - this is no ocean cruiser - it is adapted for a short explosive burst to latch onto its victim. The disappearing trick it uses to attract its prey is thanks to what is thought to be a unique use of bioluminescence in a predatory fish. The Cookie cutter's belly is covered in photophores apart from on a small dark 'collar' under the fishes' gills. It is speculated that using 'counter-illumination', (matching its light output to the light penetrating from the sea's surface) the fish becomes invisible apart from the dark collar which appears to be a small fish to any would-be predator lurking below. They are believed to swim at different levels in the water column to compensate for the ever-changing light levels above them. The shark's fearsome dentition, (the largest in comparison to its size of any shark) rapidly removes a bite sized chunk of its victim with the smaller upper jaw teeth gaining purchase while the larger lower teeth slice through flesh. The mouth itself is modified to form a suction cup to gain further grip. Occasionally Cookie cutters have been known to bite off more than they can chew. Attacks by them on the neoprene covered sonar domes and electric cabling of US submarines caused several subs to need emergency repairs and the installation of fibre glass covers in the 1970s and 80s. They are considered facultative ectoparasites as they are also known to eat smaller prey such as squid completely. Related to dogfish, they are ovoviviparous, giving birth to litters of 6 to 12 pups which are around 15cm/6in long. Published: Bob Mehen Friday 21 January 2011, 12:39 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50066	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: OT: Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3563&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_21_2011&utm_term=Man_charged_with_stabbing_victim_using_a_swordfish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4e6ksrd [Photo of skeleton at link] Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish A 50-year-old man has been charged with stabbing another man, using the skeleton of a swordfish. The attack happened last October, in south-west Victoria, Australia. The 'sword' of the swordfish used in the attack caused the victim minor injuries. The man has been charged with assault with a weapon, summary assault and possession of a weapon. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Friday 21 January 2011, 10:46 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50067	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

exactly correct ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 1:48:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50068	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM   Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50069	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

try petco they sell tanks but i don't think the set them up for you and they have a good selection of tropical fish. ________________________________ From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 5:48:27 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM Â Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50070	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

Hi Dax, Try asking someone that installs glass for businesses. Or you should be able to make them yourself if you find someone to sell you the glass and you can have the proper silicone shipped to you. As far as fish. There are probably some tropicals you can get from local rivers. Here is a list from Monga Bay with about 84 freshwater species. http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Belize.htm Let us know how it turns out. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM   Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50071	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

Emma, I am not certain but my guess is Petco has not started stores in Central America, but I could be wrong. Belize is located South of Mexico. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=belize&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail try petco they sell tanks but i don't think the set them up for you and they have a good selection of tropical fish. ________________________________ From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 5:48:27 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM Â Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50072	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: OT: Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish

Nice story \\Steve//. I just read a book about a U.S. spy sub and they mentioned getting attacked by a sword fish while on a dive and eventually the sword broke off in part of the hull. The captain of the sub kept the sword as a souvenir. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 4:27 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] OT: Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3563&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_21_2011&utm_term=Man_charged_with_stabbing_victim_using_a_swordfish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4e6ksrd [Photo of skeleton at link] Man charged with stabbing victim using a swordfish A 50-year-old man has been charged with stabbing another man, using the skeleton of a swordfish. The attack happened last October, in south-west Victoria, Australia. The 'sword' of the swordfish used in the attack caused the victim minor injuries. The man has been charged with assault with a weapon, summary assault and possession of a weapon. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Friday 21 January 2011, 10:46 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50073	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: DIY aquarium links Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail

Here is a DIY video from Youtube on building an aquarium. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qiev3DdFAE There is a Aquarium building or DIY aquarium building group on Yahoo groups but it is not very active. And here is a video from GARF on making a stand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2B5bSgPwuw On The GARF Website they have plans for building Plywood aquariums with glass or acrylic fronts for viewing. http://www.garf.org/140.gallon.html Tank calculator from GARF http://www.garf.org/tank/buildtank.asp You can use the link above for glass, acrylic or a combination of plywood-glass, or plywood-acrylic. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Deenerz@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail Hi Dax, Try asking someone that installs glass for businesses. Or you should be able to make them yourself if you find someone to sell you the glass and you can have the proper silicone shipped to you. As far as fish. There are probably some tropicals you can get from local rivers. Here is a list from Monga Bay with about 84 freshwater species. http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Belize.htm Let us know how it turns out. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM   Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>;; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50074	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

we do not have any Petco stores here...and I don't have an address for them. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 7:54 PM   try petco they sell tanks but i don't think the set them up for you and they have a good selection of tropical fish. ________________________________ From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 5:48:27 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM Â Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50075	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

OK thanks man for the information converning the making of a tank. and the list of varioys fish. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 8:07 PM   Hi Dax, Try asking someone that installs glass for businesses. Or you should be able to make them yourself if you find someone to sell you the glass and you can have the proper silicone shipped to you. As far as fish. There are probably some tropicals you can get from local rivers. Here is a list from Monga Bay with about 84 freshwater species. http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Belize.htm Let us know how it turns out. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM   Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50076	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

You are right...Belize is located directly south of Mexico and once was an English colony called "British Honduras"....everyone in Belize speaks English and it is the official language of the country. We do not have any petco stores here. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 8:10 PM   Emma, I am not certain but my guess is Petco has not started stores in Central America, but I could be wrong. Belize is located South of Mexico. http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=belize&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 5:54 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail try petco they sell tanks but i don't think the set them up for you and they have a good selection of tropical fish. ________________________________ From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 5:48:27 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM Â Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50077	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/21/2011
Subject: Re: DIY aquarium links Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail

Thank you VERY MUCH on the info about building tanks especially the video. THANK YOU............ Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: DIY aquarium links Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 9:02 PM   Here is a DIY video from Youtube on building an aquarium. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Qiev3DdFAE There is a Aquarium building or DIY aquarium building group on Yahoo groups but it is not very active. And here is a video from GARF on making a stand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2B5bSgPwuw On The GARF Website they have plans for building Plywood aquariums with glass or acrylic fronts for viewing. http://www.garf.org/140.gallon.html Tank calculator from GARF http://www.garf.org/tank/buildtank.asp You can use the link above for glass, acrylic or a combination of plywood-glass, or plywood-acrylic. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Deenerz@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 6:07 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail Hi Dax, Try asking someone that installs glass for businesses. Or you should be able to make them yourself if you find someone to sell you the glass and you can have the proper silicone shipped to you. As far as fish. There are probably some tropicals you can get from local rivers. Here is a list from Monga Bay with about 84 freshwater species. http://fish.mongabay.com/data/Belize.htm Let us know how it turns out. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 2:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Fri, 1/21/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, January 21, 2011, 12:48 PM   Angel fish get too big for your 10 gallon tank, if I remember correctly that's what size tank you just set up. Amber On 1/21/2011 4:41 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > so angel fish with them not doable is my guess> > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>>;; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;; > Sent: Fri, January 21, 2011 12:33:06 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > This answer is a little vague, as there are are at least 8 species of > the more > common Gourami's available for the community tank, with a number of > varieties of > some of them. As such, aggressive behavior cannot be attributed to all > of them, > even though varieties of a species cannot be expected to behave > differently from > one another of that same species. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;;, "Gian Carlo Miguel" > <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis are one > >of my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, the > >best answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male > gourami once in > >my guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > decided to > >put the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to be > >quite aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > flowing > >fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > regular fish > >food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > week (just > >to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > ones I see > >at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put > it in a > >community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > and, they > >should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50078	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

Daniel, You might want to check out www.glasscages.com. I do not know if they will ship internationally, but you can chat with them about that via e-mail or phone. The acrylic tanks would be less expensive to ship. The do make a high quality tank. The do it yourself (DIY) route also has some merit, if you are relatively handy with a few tools. The biggest problem with a DIY tank is keeping the glass properly aligned while applying the silicone and waiting for it to set. Water is heavy (~8.4 lbs. per gallon) and a lot of pressure will be exerted on the glass and seams, which makes it imperative that you have the pieces of glass aligned properly and use enough, but not too much, silicone to seal the seams and hold everything together. However, successfully done, you sense of satisfaction will be a big part of owning the tank. I see someone already has provided you with a link to a number of fish found in Belize. My first thought, before I saw that was that you could just dip a net in any local body of water (although Steve KNOWS it is not quite as simple as that). You may even be able to get some of the local kids to help you with little or no bribing. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dax Gorham Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50079	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: betta fry

Hey guys, I'm so happy today because I successfully breeded my two bettas. For now i'm just waiting fir them to hatch. Some sites in the internet say that feeding your fry boiled egg (yolk) would just be fine and has a lot of protein. Uhmm, would that be true? Anyway I have infusoria as a 2nd option and I got it from my mini pond. thanks! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50080	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

I'd go with the infusoria, the egg yolk that doesn't get eaten will foul the water but the infusoria will remain alive waiting for them to eat them later. I started mine with a used sponge filter (lots of rotifers), some aquarium decorations that were covered in algae, and shots of infusoria several times a day. Oh, and vinegar eels, but they're not nutritionally complete, but they do live in the water for about 5 days so nice to have as back-up. If it's a real pond, see if you can fish out some leaves to put in the fry tank (check them for anything big enough to eat fry first!) They'd be covered in infusoria and the bacteria that infusoria eat. Plus they'd give some "blackwater" (tannins) to the fry tank which should increase the disease-resistance of the fry. I highly recommend microworms/Walter worms for betta fry. My fry didn't grow as fast at the "turbo" ones from professionals but they are only a few weeks short of the "turbo-grown" fry and they almost all lived - I think I lost about 8 total out of over 200. Another good food is called "Golden Pearls" - a replacement for baby brine shrimp. They come in all sizes, so theoretically you could start feeding them in a few week and not mess with live foods at all. Also if you haven't done so, put a snail in the tank. Or a few of them. Trapdoor snails are supposed to be a source of infusoria, but I've used nerites and ramshorns in mine and they clean up the uneaten food from the bottom of the tank to keep it MUCH cleaner! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Hey guys, > > I'm so happy today because I successfully breeded my two bettas. For now i'm just waiting fir them to hatch. > > Some sites in the internet say that feeding your fry boiled egg (yolk) would just be fine and has a lot of protein. Uhmm, would that be true? > > Anyway I have infusoria as a 2nd option and I got it from my mini pond. > thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50081	From: Dani	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. Just some random thoughts bouncing around in my head this morning, sorry. Thanks, Dani --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I do not know how I came upon this link to the PDF (link is listed below), but it gives an idea of what it is like to be a fish farmer. It appears to be part of a course given at Saint Joseph University, a Jesuit school in Philadelphia, PA. Even if you do not wish to be a fish farmer, it is a good read. And, if you choose, you will not be graded on your answers to the questions given at the end of the file. > > http://www.abe.sju.edu/gagnon.pdf > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50082	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

As haecklers mentions, infusoria is the way to go, if you have it available to you. The egg yolk you mention finding on the web is also a fine food for very small fry, but it does have some drawbacks, like uneaten yolk can spoil in a tank, raising havoc with the fry. You'll want to dose the tank several times a day with some of the infusoria to ensure the fry have enough food available. Failing to find leaves, as haecklers suggests, you may wish to use some crushed lettuce, some straw or grass to place in the tank to provide a food source for the infusoria. If you are using a sponge filter, there will also be microscopic life available for the fry there. Make sure you keep the tank warm and covered as completely as you can. When it comes time for the fry to fill their labyrinth organ, they need warm, humid air to do so. This is the way to ensure that warm, humid air is available to them. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gian Carlo Miguel Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:09 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] betta fry Hey guys, I'm so happy today because I successfully breeded my two bettas. For now i'm just waiting fir them to hatch. Some sites in the internet say that feeding your fry boiled egg (yolk) would just be fine and has a lot of protein. Uhmm, would that be true? Anyway I have infusoria as a 2nd option and I got it from my mini pond. thanks! -Gian ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50083	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

Since you do not state the area you are from, it is kind of hard to state the weather considerations you would be facing. For instance, it was -47°F in International Falls yesterday, which would put a serious kink in anyone's fish raising plans outdoors over the winter there. There are also wild animals you need to worry about, such a raccoons, egrets, herons, etc. Algae control is another worry. There are people here who have done this type of thing before--speaking here of water troughs, who may come out of hiding and help you with your plans. I've only had some pond experience, which is a bit different. If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod, there is a research place that is, or was, raising tilapia in a greenhouse environment. It was many years ago that I visited there, and I cannot give you any more information about it other than I went to visit one summer while I was on the Cape visiting my wife's grandparents and some friends (and feasting on dirt cheap lobster dinners with steamers and beer). A web search could find that place and others, maybe one near you. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. Just some random thoughts bouncing around in my head this morning, sorry. Thanks, Dani --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I do not know how I came upon this link to the PDF (link is listed below), but it gives an idea of what it is like to be a fish farmer. It appears to be part of a course given at Saint Joseph University, a Jesuit school in Philadelphia, PA. Even if you do not wish to be a fish farmer, it is a good read. And, if you choose, you will not be graded on your answers to the questions given at the end of the file. > > http://www.abe.sju.edu/gagnon.pdf > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50084	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Another good reason to keep the tank covered is that it prevents a lot of evaporation, which makes the temperature hard to maintain and makes the heater work harder - cycling off and on faster. And another good reason to go with infusoria is that they eat bacteria and will help maintain good water quality. Be careful when you remove the father fish - when I removed mine he had about 40 of the fry in his mouth! I had him in a small container and was waiting for his water to come closer to room temp (thankfully) and I kept seeing fry in with him. I must have removed close to 40 fry before he finally stopped spitting them out, all over the span of about an hour. An eyedropper is invaluable at this stage, and a turkey baster will serve you well soon when you try to do water changes or need to remove something from the tank! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > As haecklers mentions, infusoria is the way to go, if you have it available > to you. The egg yolk you mention finding on the web is also a fine food for > very small fry, but it does have some drawbacks, like uneaten yolk can spoil > in a tank, raising havoc with the fry. > > You'll want to dose the tank several times a day with some of the infusoria > to ensure the fry have enough food available. Failing to find leaves, as > haecklers suggests, you may wish to use some crushed lettuce, some straw or > grass to place in the tank to provide a food source for the infusoria. If > you are using a sponge filter, there will also be microscopic life available > for the fry there. > > Make sure you keep the tank warm and covered as completely as you can. When > it comes time for the fry to fill their labyrinth organ, they need warm, > humid air to do so. This is the way to ensure that warm, humid air is > available to them. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gian Carlo Miguel > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:09 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] betta fry > > Hey guys, > > I'm so happy today because I successfully breeded my two bettas. For now i'm > just waiting fir them to hatch. > > Some sites in the internet say that feeding your fry boiled egg (yolk) would > just be fine and has a lot of protein. Uhmm, would that be true? > > Anyway I have infusoria as a 2nd option and I got it from my mini pond. > thanks! > > -Gian > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50085	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

Perhaps this video or the associated links can help with ideas for cold weather Tilapia farming. Here in the video they are raising tilapia in Wisconsin in green houses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng&feature=player_embedded#! I saw some links recently for tilapia farming in tubs, the seller was located in Hawaii but small scale production could be done in a green house. Having trouble locating the links for the tub raised hydroponic tilapia right now but will keep looking. -Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 8:56 am Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer Since you do not state the area you are from, it is kind of hard to state the weather considerations you would be facing. For instance, it was -47°F in International Falls yesterday, which would put a serious kink in anyone's fish raising plans outdoors over the winter there. There are also wild animals you need to worry about, such a raccoons, egrets, herons, etc. Algae control is another worry. There are people here who have done this type of thing before--speaking here of water troughs, who may come out of hiding and help you with your plans. I've only had some pond experience, which is a bit different. If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod, there is a research place that is, or was, raising tilapia in a greenhouse environment. It was many years ago that I visited there, and I cannot give you any more information about it other than I went to visit one summer while I was on the Cape visiting my wife's grandparents and some friends (and feasting on dirt cheap lobster dinners with steamers and beer). A web search could find that place and others, maybe one near you. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. Just some random thoughts bouncing around in my head this morning, sorry. Thanks, Dani --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I do not know how I came upon this link to the PDF (link is listed below), but it gives an idea of what it is like to be a fish farmer. It appears to be part of a course given at Saint Joseph University, a Jesuit school in Philadelphia, PA. Even if you do not wish to be a fish farmer, it is a good read. And, if you choose, you will not be graded on your answers to the questions given at the end of the file. > > http://www.abe.sju.edu/gagnon.pdf > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50086	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

There is also a wealth of information about aquaponics, where you use a hydroponic plant set-up to filter the water for the fish and the waste that comes out feeds plants. Australia has a lot of info. on it online, I think they have some gov't grants or something there. It's kind of intriguing, especially if you've ever used the fish water to water your houseplants and seen the way the leaves get a darker shade of green and they get a real surge in growth. For that kind of fish farming you could raise tropical fish for the pet industry or food fish/invertebrates - I've seen some really interesting setups for raising crayfish for food. In a cold climate you'd want to do it in a greenhouse but maybe a basement with a lot of fluorescent shop lights would do. Here's one good link: http://www.energybulletin.net/node/20878 --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Since you do not state the area you are from, it is kind of hard to state > the weather considerations you would be facing. For instance, it was -47°F > in International Falls yesterday, which would put a serious kink in anyone's > fish raising plans outdoors over the winter there. There are also wild > animals you need to worry about, such a raccoons, egrets, herons, etc. Algae > control is another worry. > > There are people here who have done this type of thing before--speaking here > of water troughs, who may come out of hiding and help you with your plans. > I've only had some pond experience, which is a bit different. > > If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod, there is a research place > that is, or was, raising tilapia in a greenhouse environment. It was many > years ago that I visited there, and I cannot give you any more information > about it other than I went to visit one summer while I was on the Cape > visiting my wife's grandparents and some friends (and feasting on dirt cheap > lobster dinners with steamers and beer). A web search could find that place > and others, maybe one near you. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Dani > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:42 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer > > That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the > family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can > keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their > strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being > around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone > out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - > cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other > problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. Just some > random thoughts bouncing around in my head this morning, sorry. > Thanks, Dani > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > I do not know how I came upon this link to the PDF (link is listed below), > but it gives an idea of what it is like to be a fish farmer. It appears to > be part of a course given at Saint Joseph University, a Jesuit school in > Philadelphia, PA. Even if you do not wish to be a fish farmer, it is a good > read. And, if you choose, you will not be graded on your answers to the > questions given at the end of the file. > > > > http://www.abe.sju.edu/gagnon.pdf > > > > \\Steve// > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50087	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Emma, I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > Amber > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > some fry. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > are one of > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > > the best > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > once in my > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > decided to put > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > be quite > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > flowing fins. > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > regular fish > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > week (just > > to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > ones I see > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > > in a > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > and, they > > should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50088	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Hi Emma,   I too have been following this thread.  First, if all you can have now is a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything.  It simply won't work for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you.  You need room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily over-populate this size tank and rather quickly too!  End result, dead fish and an unhappy Emma! We don't want this to happen to you!   Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full of Neon Tetra's? 8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice and eye catching display tank.  The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I think the Tetra's are more colorful.   Bill --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM Emma, I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank.  The fact remains that it won't work.  If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species.  There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space.  If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons).  Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space.  Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around.  Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish.  There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank.  I agree that would be a great option.  If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios.  With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement.  Dawn        --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >    > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > Amber > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > some fry. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > are one of > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > > the best > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > once in my > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > decided to put > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > be quite > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > flowing fins. > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > regular fish > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > week (just > > to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > ones I see > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > > in a > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > and, they > > should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >  > > >        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50089	From: harry perry	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment

Keeping and breeding fish has a certain commitment that goes along with it.   Just throwing all kinds of fish into a 10 gal. tank won't do it.   Before buying any fish you should research their needs and eventual size.   I have been successful on many occasions breeding gouramis and other fish in a 10 gal. but they didn't live there. They came from a much larger community tank and then went back to that tank after spawning.   A 10 gal. tank is too small for a community tank unless you have very small fish. Some suggestions have been posted.   Gouramis and Angle fish need at least a 30 gal. possibly bigger.   When we decide to keep fish we take on the responsibility of raising them in a healthy manner.   Too many fish in a small tank become stunted. This affects their overall health not just their size.   If your not going to make the commitment you should give you fish back to the LFS drain your tank and consider raising Hamsters. 10 gal. tanks make excellent Hamster habitats.   Harry   --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM   Emma, I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > Amber > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > some fry. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > are one of > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > > the best > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > once in my > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > decided to put > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > be quite > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > flowing fins. > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > regular fish > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > week (just > > to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > ones I see > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > > in a > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > and, they > > should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50090	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment

I also spoke about cycling this new 10 gallon tank, no one agreed with me, and Emma seemed to have ignored me. So I gave up following her threads. Amber On 1/22/2011 1:22 PM, harry perry wrote: > > Keeping and breeding fish has a certain commitment that goes along > with it. > > Just throwing all kinds of fish into a 10 gal. tank won't do it. > > Before buying any fish you should research their needs and eventual size. > > I have been successful on many occasions breeding gouramis and other > fish in a 10 gal. but they didn't live there. They came from a much > larger community tank and then went back to that tank after spawning. > > A 10 gal. tank is too small for a community tank unless you have very > small fish. Some suggestions have been posted. > > Gouramis and Angle fish need at least a 30 gal. possibly bigger. > > When we decide to keep fish we take on the responsibility of raising > them in a healthy manner. > > Too many fish in a small tank become stunted. This affects their > overall health not just their size. > > If your not going to make the commitment you should give you fish back > to the LFS drain your tank and consider raising Hamsters. 10 gal. > tanks make excellent Hamster habitats. > > Harry > > > --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > Emma, > I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes > doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary > needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 > aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more complicated > than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed > space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult > fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are very > sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds > for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. If you > are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are > going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it > in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > > > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > > some fry. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > > are one of > > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > > > the best > > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > > once in my > > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > > decided to put > > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > > be quite > > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > > flowing fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > > regular fish > > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > > week (just > > > to boost them up). > > > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > > ones I see > > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > > > in a > > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > > and, they > > > should be inaggressive. > > > > > > -Gian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50091	From: R. Scaife	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Distilled H2O & Bettas

I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? Thanks Renee in STL,MO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50092	From: harry perry	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas/What ????

I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal?   Being what??? --- On Sat, 1/22/11, R. Scaife <r22scaife@...> wrote: From: R. Scaife <r22scaife@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Distilled H2O & Bettas To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 6:28 PM   I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? Thanks Renee in STL,MO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50093	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: >Hi Emma, >  >I too have been following this thread.  First, if all you can have now is >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything.  It simply won't work >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you.  You need >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily over-populate this >size tank and rather quickly too!  End result, dead fish and an unhappy Emma! >We don't want this to happen to you! >  >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full of Neon Tetra's? >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice and eye >catching display tank.  The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I think the Tetra's >are more colorful. >  >Bill > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > >Emma, >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank.  > >The fact remains that it won't work.  If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species.  There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space.  If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons).  Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space.  Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around.  Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish.  There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank.  I agree that would be a great option.  If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios.  With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement.  > >Dawn        > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: >> >> i was going to get male and female together. >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis >> >>    >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. >> >> Amber >> >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: >> > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get >> > some fry. >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis >> > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis >> > are one of >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, >> > the best >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami >> > once in my >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I >> > decided to put >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to >> > be quite >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long >> > flowing fins. >> > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the >> > regular fish >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a >> > week (just >> > to boost them up). >> > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the >> > ones I see >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it >> > in a >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it >> > and, they >> > should be inaggressive. >> > >> > -Gian >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> > >> >>  >> >> >>        >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50094	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

If her heart is set on the dwarf gouramis, for a 10 gallon tank, I would suggest planting it well. Lots of plants, without forgetting to provide an open area for everyone to swim in. One pair of dwarf gouramis, a small school of a tetra-like torpedo shaped fish--neons, cardinals, White Cloud Mountain fish, zebra danios, harlequin rasboras, etc. and two or three small cories. The jungle in the tank will give everyone a place to hideout, especially the gouramis, and will lead to the highest likely hood that no one will suffer from aggression by the gouramis. There is only so much space for fish, so the challenge in a smaller tank is to use the space wisely. I had such a tank, but it was a 5.5 gallon tank, and everyone seemed to get along famously for years, including being moved 4 times each year between the east coast and the Midwest. I did lose some fish during a very cold drive to the Midwest. It was a very cold winter that year and even with cardboard covering most of the radiator, my poor little car had trouble staying warm. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill 1433 Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Hi Emma,   I too have been following this thread.  First, if all you can have now is a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything.  It simply won't work for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you.  You need room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily over-populate this size tank and rather quickly too!  End result, dead fish and an unhappy Emma! We don't want this to happen to you!   Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full of Neon Tetra's? 8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice and eye catching display tank.  The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I think the Tetra's are more colorful.   Bill --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM Emma, I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank.  The fact remains that it won't work.  If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species.  There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space.  If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons).  Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space.  Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around.  Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish.  There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank.  I agree that would be a great option.  If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios.  With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement.  Dawn        --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >    > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > Amber > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > some fry. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > are one of > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > > the best > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > once in my > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > decided to put > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > be quite > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > flowing fins. > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > regular fish > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > week (just > > to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > ones I see > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > > in a > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > and, they > > should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >  > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50095	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas

No, you cannot use distilled water. It will eventually kill your fish. Distilled water is just H2) and nothing else. No buffering elements, no minerals needed for the fish's well being, no trace elements, nothing. In most cases, tap water is just fine. In those few instances where there is a toxic element is present, then reverse osmosis may be considered. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of R. Scaife Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 6:28 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Distilled H2O & Bettas I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? Thanks Renee in STL,MO

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50096	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

WOW many thanks for the E-mail address for some people who could possibily make up a tank or two. Also now I have got to try and find a few handy places here where we might net some fish to live in the tanks. I guess we should worry about transferring to the tanks some of the various sickness Etc., that could come in with the fish. Many many thanks for the kind replies. Dax Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Sat, 1/22/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 4:29 AM   Daniel, You might want to check out www.glasscages.com. I do not know if they will ship internationally, but you can chat with them about that via e-mail or phone. The acrylic tanks would be less expensive to ship. The do make a high quality tank. The do it yourself (DIY) route also has some merit, if you are relatively handy with a few tools. The biggest problem with a DIY tank is keeping the glass properly aligned while applying the silicone and waiting for it to set. Water is heavy (~8.4 lbs. per gallon) and a lot of pressure will be exerted on the glass and seams, which makes it imperative that you have the pieces of glass aligned properly and use enough, but not too much, silicone to seal the seams and hold everything together. However, successfully done, you sense of satisfaction will be a big part of owning the tank. I see someone already has provided you with a link to a number of fish found in Belize. My first thought, before I saw that was that you could just dip a net in any local body of water (although Steve KNOWS it is not quite as simple as that). You may even be able to get some of the local kids to help you with little or no bribing. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dax Gorham Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 5:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: tanks by mail I retied down here to Belize (Central America) and wonder if anyone know where I can order some tanks...75 to 100 gallons)??? WE use to have someone who opened a business to make tanks and ste them up for you...but I can't find them, they seem to have gone out of business (not a good sign). Belize is omly an hour by air from Miami, Florida. Also what about obtaining tropical fish? In jopes you have an answer Dax Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50097	From: r22scaife@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas/What ????

I'm sorry very dirty. Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Android phone harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: >I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? >  >Being what??? > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, R. Scaife <r22scaife@...> wrote: > > >From: R. Scaife <r22scaife@...> >Subject: [AquaticLife] Distilled H2O & Bettas >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 6:28 PM > > >  > > > > >I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? > >Thanks Renee in STL,MO > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50098	From: haecklers	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas

How many gallons do the tanks hold? Are they in the ones that hold about 1/2 gallon total? That's really too small for bettas. I know they sell them "for bettas" but they won't thrive or stay healthy in such a small space. I personally think it's a way to sell more fish - to keep replacing the ones that die before their time! Cloudy water usually means there is too much food going uneaten. Watch to see if the fish eat everything you give them within a few minutes. I only feed mine what they can eat in about 20 seconds, but I feed them a few times a day. I think the betta pellets are better than flakes - it seems there are always a few small pieces the fish miss and mine don't like them once they get soggy. For the water changes, ask at the fish store or better call your water dept. and ask if they use chlorine, chloramines, or both to treat the water where you live. If they only use chlorine you can age some water in a clean milk jug or some water bottles (with the top open) to let the chlorine off-gas. It usually takes around 12 hours but if you're changing half the water or more it's better to wait 24 hours to be safe. If they use chloramines you'll need to treat it with something to remove it as it doesn't just off-gas. They sell that at the fish store too. It's expensive but will be cheaper than buying bottled water! If your tanks are less than a gallon per fish, I highly recommend you get them something bigger. If cost is an issue, Goodwill and Salvation Army often sell 1-gallon glass vases for around $1 - $3. If space is an issue, you could get a 10 gallon tank and use a hot glue gun and some plastic cross-stitch canvas to put in partitions. Each fish would get 2.5 gallons then, and you could put in a heater and a small aerator - they don't need it but it would circulate the water and keep it healthier. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "R. Scaife" <r22scaife@...> wrote: > > > I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? > > Thanks Renee in STL,MO > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50099	From: r22scaife@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O & Bettas

I'm very happy you responded Steve. Thanks. I will change it to tap h2O. Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Android phone Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: >No, you cannot use distilled water. It will eventually kill your fish. >Distilled water is just H2) and nothing else. No buffering elements, no >minerals needed for the fish's well being, no trace elements, nothing. In >most cases, tap water is just fine. In those few instances where there is a >toxic element is present, then reverse osmosis may be considered. > >\\Steve// > > >-----Original Message----- >From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of R. Scaife >Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 6:28 PM >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [AquaticLife] Distilled H2O & Bettas > > >I have 4 bettas. They all are in the small tanks with the dividers in the >middle. I have noticed the water being every 5 days. Is this normal? CanI >used distilled H2O instead of bottled H2O to change their water? > >Thanks Renee in STL,MO > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50100	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment

i'am sorry i am cycleing the tank now ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 5:25:00 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis/ Commitment I also spoke about cycling this new 10 gallon tank, no one agreed with me, and Emma seemed to have ignored me. So I gave up following her threads. Amber On 1/22/2011 1:22 PM, harry perry wrote: > > Keeping and breeding fish has a certain commitment that goes along > with it. > > Just throwing all kinds of fish into a 10 gal. tank won't do it. > > Before buying any fish you should research their needs and eventual size. > > I have been successful on many occasions breeding gouramis and other > fish in a 10 gal. but they didn't live there. They came from a much > larger community tank and then went back to that tank after spawning. > > A 10 gal. tank is too small for a community tank unless you have very > small fish. Some suggestions have been posted. > > Gouramis and Angle fish need at least a 30 gal. possibly bigger. > > When we decide to keep fish we take on the responsibility of raising > them in a healthy manner. > > Too many fish in a small tank become stunted. This affects their > overall health not just their size. > > If your not going to make the commitment you should give you fish back > to the LFS drain your tank and consider raising Hamsters. 10 gal. > tanks make excellent Hamster habitats. > > Harry > > > --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > Emma, > I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes > doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary > needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 > aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more complicated > than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed > space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult > fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are very > sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds > for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. If you > are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are > going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it > in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > > > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > > some fry. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > > are one of > > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > > > the best > > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > > once in my > > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > > decided to put > > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > > be quite > > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > > flowing fins. > > > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > > regular fish > > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > > week (just > > > to boost them up). > > > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > > ones I see > > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > > > in a > > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > > and, they > > > should be inaggressive. > > > > > > -Gian > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50101	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

thanks i will try to take a pic and get it posted soon for you? i get all of those fish or just some? and how many should i get? ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 6:40:55 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis If her heart is set on the dwarf gouramis, for a 10 gallon tank, I would suggest planting it well. Lots of plants, without forgetting to provide an open area for everyone to swim in. One pair of dwarf gouramis, a small school of a tetra-like torpedo shaped fish--neons, cardinals, White Cloud Mountain fish, zebra danios, harlequin rasboras, etc. and two or three small cories. The jungle in the tank will give everyone a place to hideout, especially the gouramis, and will lead to the highest likely hood that no one will suffer from aggression by the gouramis. There is only so much space for fish, so the challenge in a smaller tank is to use the space wisely. I had such a tank, but it was a 5.5 gallon tank, and everyone seemed to get along famously for years, including being moved 4 times each year between the east coast and the Midwest. I did lose some fish during a very cold drive to the Midwest. It was a very cold winter that year and even with cardboard covering most of the radiator, my poor little car had trouble staying warm. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill 1433 Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 5:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Hi Emma, I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily over-populate this size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an unhappy Emma! We don't want this to happen to you! Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full of Neon Tetra's? 8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice and eye catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I think the Tetra's are more colorful. Bill --- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM Emma, I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i was going to get male and female together. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > Amber > > On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > some fry. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > > are one of > > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > > the best > > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > once in my > > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > decided to put > > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > > be quite > > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > flowing fins. > > > > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > regular fish > > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > week (just > > to boost them up). > > > > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > ones I see > > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > > in a > > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > and, they > > should be inaggressive. > > > > -Gian > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50102	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50103	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Kissing gouramis (Helostoma temminckii) can reach 12" in a tank. They get larger in nature. There really is no way the would survive in a 10 gallon tank for long without serious consequences. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50104	From: kwondrash	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: info on peacock gobies wanted please!

I was recently made aware of a very colorful fish called a peacock goby. I'm wondering what you folks can tell me about it before I decide to look into getting them. Water requirements? Foods they do well on? How easy/difficult they are to keep? Another question is in regards to using the RO water from the grocery store...do you find it helps soften your water in the tank? Good to use or not? Thanks!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50105	From: xleche_flanx	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: tanks by mail

How interesting! I agree it's very hard to find good fish supplies in Belize... But, the place where I bought my betta fish sell a lot of tanks! From small to the big one. I think you can ask the store to get it for you if the it doesn't have the tank you want. The store only sell tanks that's all, no plants etc. It also sell a lot of parrot cages and some hamster cages too. It's in Belize City on New Road. It's very close to Food and Beverage if you know that store. But you can go to New Road from Queen Street (in downtown), which I am sure a lot of people know. New road starts from Queen street where the Police Station is. There is one petshop around Queen street, but I think it only got tanks for small fish if it has any, because it's a very small store. I bought 2 hamster there, and it too the lady 6 months to get the hamsters! My friend told me that there is a pet store at Belmopan. It's Belize Pet World, but I never go to that store so I am not sure about it. I usually get my supplies from Chetumal or Guatemala, when my friends are going back. So may be you can ask your friend to send one from there? =) Hope you find what you are looking for!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50106	From: Dani	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

Ooops! Sorry, Steve. I'm in south Texas near San Antonio. I already know a lady with a metal trough that she keeps goldfish in. There's pond filter in it and they've had no problems breeding and keeping healthy. The walls of the trough (it's a circle) are tall enough that a cat would have to jump up & fall into it - so they don't try anymore and she doesn't keep a chair or bench close enough to it for the cats to "fish" from. Also its thin so that the cats nor a big bird could sit on the walls comfortably and try to "fish" from either. I honestly don't know if the metal trough was a good idea but since we're not eating the goldfish I guess it's okay. That's why I was thinking a cement one would be better. She never tests the water for anything and they are well over 6". Anyways, just thought it was an idea on raising my own tilapia even if not for business purposes. Just a thought running thru my noggin lately is all. :). Thanks again, Dani --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Since you do not state the area you are from, it is kind of hard to state > the weather considerations you would be facing. For instance, it was -47°F > in International Falls yesterday, which would put a serious kink in anyone's > fish raising plans outdoors over the winter there. There are also wild > animals you need to worry about, such a raccoons, egrets, herons, etc. Algae > control is another worry. > > There are people here who have done this type of thing before--speaking here > of water troughs, who may come out of hiding and help you with your plans. > I've only had some pond experience, which is a bit different. > > If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod, there is a research place > that is, or was, raising tilapia in a greenhouse environment. It was many > years ago that I visited there, and I cannot give you any more information > about it other than I went to visit one summer while I was on the Cape > visiting my wife's grandparents and some friends (and feasting on dirt cheap > lobster dinners with steamers and beer). A web search could find that place > and others, maybe one near you. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Dani > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:42 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer > > That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the > family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can > keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their > strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being > around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone > out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - > cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other > problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. > Thanks, Dani >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50107	From: LindaS	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it

get a instant water conditioner for emergencies. But, it you can do it, fill buckets with regular tapwater and keep out for at least 24 hours. In 24 hours the chlorine is out of it. I do it all summer. I try to wait a few more hours, usually 2 days, but I have used it in 24 hours and it's fine. You are basically poisoning your fish with distilled water so get the instant water conditioner for under $5 at any pet store just to keep on hand.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50108	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it

Keep in mind that if anyone has Chloramines in their water this will not work. They do not break down that fast and you need to treat for them or your fish will pay the price. Contact your water supplier to check for Chloramines before attempting to just let water sit and add it to your tank. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: LindaS <maxinatrillion@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 9:27 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it get a instant water conditioner for emergencies. But, it you can do it, fill buckets with regular tapwater and keep out for at least 24 hours. In 24 hours the chlorine is out of it. I do it all summer. I try to wait a few more hours, usually 2 days, but I have used it in 24 hours and it's fine. You are basically poisoning your fish with distilled water so get the instant water conditioner for under $5 at any pet store just to keep on hand.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50109	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: info on peacock gobies wanted please!

It is not nice to fool with mother nature. Playing with your water chemistry can lead to a catastrophic failure. You are better off to keep fish that like your water parameters than to try to adjust your water parameters to the fish you think you wish to keep. When you mix the RO water with your water to soften it, what you will be doing is giving the compounds creating your particular hardness more water volume to spread out in. This will reduce your hardness. However the buffering capacity of you water will change as well, lowering the pH. That is because your buffering compound has also been reduced. Now, the question is whether it is still strong enough to maintain a stable pH, and this will be the question every time you do a water change. If the buffer becomes too weak, you will have a pH crash. This means the pH will drop nearly instantly to a very low level. Not good for living organisms in that water. If you had a pH of, say, 7.5, you may suddenly find yourself with a pH of 5.0, as an example. Also, there is the cost factor to consider. How much and for how long are you willing to pay for the water? \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kwondrash Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] info on peacock gobies wanted please! I was recently made aware of a very colorful fish called a peacock goby. I'm wondering what you folks can tell me about it before I decide to look into getting them. Water requirements? Foods they do well on? How easy/difficult they are to keep? Another question is in regards to using the RO water from the grocery store...do you find it helps soften your water in the tank? Good to use or not? Thanks!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50110	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/22/2011
Subject: Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer

Now, the question becomes, what is your average low temperature in the winter and is it warm enough for tilapia to survive without a heater. Goldfish can survive pretty low temperatures, and even iced over water (as long as you keep a hole in the ice, over the winter months up north. I've done it in MA. I do not know off hand the low temperature for tilapia, but doubt it is much below 60°F. You'll need to do some research here. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 11:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer Ooops! Sorry, Steve. I'm in south Texas near San Antonio. I already know a lady with a metal trough that she keeps goldfish in. There's pond filter in it and they've had no problems breeding and keeping healthy. The walls of the trough (it's a circle) are tall enough that a cat would have to jump up & fall into it - so they don't try anymore and she doesn't keep a chair or bench close enough to it for the cats to "fish" from. Also its thin so that the cats nor a big bird could sit on the walls comfortably and try to "fish" from either. I honestly don't know if the metal trough was a good idea but since we're not eating the goldfish I guess it's okay. That's why I was thinking a cement one would be better. She never tests the water for anything and they are well over 6". Anyways, just thought it was an idea on raising my own tilapia even if not for business purposes. Just a thought running thru my noggin lately is all. :). Thanks again, Dani --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Since you do not state the area you are from, it is kind of hard to state > the weather considerations you would be facing. For instance, it was -47°F > in International Falls yesterday, which would put a serious kink in anyone's > fish raising plans outdoors over the winter there. There are also wild > animals you need to worry about, such a raccoons, egrets, herons, etc. Algae > control is another worry. > > There are people here who have done this type of thing before--speaking here > of water troughs, who may come out of hiding and help you with your plans. > I've only had some pond experience, which is a bit different. > > If you are within driving distance of Cape Cod, there is a research place > that is, or was, raising tilapia in a greenhouse environment. It was many > years ago that I visited there, and I cannot give you any more information > about it other than I went to visit one summer while I was on the Cape > visiting my wife's grandparents and some friends (and feasting on dirt cheap > lobster dinners with steamers and beer). A web search could find that place > and others, maybe one near you. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Dani > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 9:42 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: So, You Want to be A Fish Farmer > > That was neat reading. Very smart. I saw at www.gardenpool.org where the > family raised their own tilapia in a converted pool. I wonder how they can > keep so many fry in those smaller tanks (in the pictures about their > strawberries I think I saw them). You think its sanitary (because of being > around chickens) or could even be turned into a profitable thing for someone > out in the country? I mean I can get a new (unused) cow trough (circular - > cement) and raise fish in my backyard but I don't know what kind of other > problems I would run in to... I've always wanted to farm fish. > Thanks, Dani >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50111	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50112	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Distilled H2O still has chlorine in it

Hi Linda, As I don't see the Subject Line here being a continuation of a thread, I'm left to understand that this originated with you. I might consider your message as being a continuation of Renee's (R.Scaife) message asking whether distilled water can be used in place of bottled water, but it's sometimes not clear (and can promote confusion) when changing the Subject Line mid-stream -- especially when your message doesn't seem to be associated with distilled water (except to say it's poisonous, which it is not) or the new Subject Line you've created, nor a continuation of a thread; you go right into treating tap water. Normally, distilled water does not contain anything except pure H2O. While there may be bottlers of distilled water who add chlorine after the distillation process, as you seem to be pointing out, this is usually not done, if it is done at all. The fact that your distilled water supplier apparently does use this additive, since your Subject Line indicates as much, this does not promote the notion that the inclusion of chlorine in distilled water is automatically part of every other distilled water supplier's product, but still good to keep aware of -- if it exists. For the most part though, chlorine should not be an issue with distilled water as it's not usually contained in this water. From what you quickly continue with though, you're stating that you use tap water, so I don't understand your reference to distilled water in your Subject (unless it is in connection to Renee's), especially as I don't see your message as being a continuation of a thread, when there's no previous message with your's indicating you're referring it to anyone or anything specific -- so I don't see your clear connection here between distilled water and the tap water you're using. To begin with, even in consideration of tap water, most public water suppliers are now using chloramine in replacement for chlorine, which doesn't dissipate in 24 hours. One needs to use a water conditioner (dechloraminator) which will break down the bond between the chlorine and ammonia, and convert the ammonia to ammonium, for this tap water to be safe. Distilled water, however, should not be used in the aquarium uncut with tap water; if used at all, it should always be used in conjunction with tap water as an agent in diluting tap water when the need comes up to reduce very high mineral content in such tap water. Unless distilled water is mixed with tap water, this type of mineral-free water will be detrimental to the health of one's fishes. Distilled water is water in its most purist form, with the content of absolutely NO minerals nor any other matter. As such, and with an osmotic pressure of ZERO when used with live organisms which will always have a positive osmotic pressure (since organic matter is made up of minerals and other matter), using this distilled water without cutting it with tap water will induce this negative osmotic pressure externally on one's fishes, and in turn, will tend to leach out any minerals contained within these fishes. This includes the calcium in their bones. While the fishes MAY gain calcium with their foods -- provided it's a particularly nutritious one -- the constant negative osmotic pressure leaching this mineral back out of the fishes is not only unhealthy for them, but will substantially slow down their growth by restricting their skeletal development, resulting in time, in stunted fish in perpetually poor health. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > get a instant water conditioner for emergencies. But, it you can do it, fill buckets with regular tapwater and keep out for at least 24 hours. > In 24 hours the chlorine is out of it. I do it all summer. I try to wait a few more hours, usually 2 days, but I have used it in 24 hours and it's fine. You are basically poisoning your fish with distilled water so get the instant water conditioner for under $5 at any pet store just to keep on hand. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50113	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

I use only aquarium safe silicone. For a while I was using one of the GE silicone products (to save a few bucks) but after some dead fish and having to tear down a tank I use the material made for aquariums. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pkvzookeeper Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:21 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Hot Glue in Aquariums I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50114	From: haecklers	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

It's not a strong bond to begin with. Aquarium silicone would probably be better, but sometimes you want something that is just temporary (easier to remove). And sometimes you need it to "grab" right away while the silicone takes awhile to set up. I'm using hot glue to make betta cages for my fry so they can stay in the main tank and so far haven't had any problems with it. It is fragile so you can't handle it roughly. But I don't think that has anything to do with the water, the plastic they sell for the glue guns just doesn't hold well to hard surfaces. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "pkvzookeeper" <keptbythecats@...> wrote: > > I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50115	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

i asked my mom again and she said they lived a year ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:54:26 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gouramis (Helostoma temminckii) can reach 12" in a tank. They get larger in nature. There really is no way the would survive in a 10 gallon tank for long without serious consequences. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50116	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

i like dwarf gouraims so i am going to get them some neon tetras and a cory cat. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:32:05 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50117	From: Reza Zulkarnain™	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

There are few products specialized for aquarium, so its safe for your fish and others, do not use those glass sealent from home depot, you can get it from ace hardware. Cmiiw. --- Regards, Reza Zulkarnain� TrimeCON Group. --- smokinhaze@... @rezazulkarnain -----Original Message----- From: "pkvzookeeper" <keptbythecats@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:20:57 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Hot Glue in Aquariums I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50118	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Emma, Didn't you just recently say that you set your tank up two days ago now, and that you are now cycling this tank? FYI, cycling a tank takes between 4 and 6 weeks unless you add one of the live nitrifying bacteria cultures (Bio-Spira or Dr Tim's One And Only) to your aquarium, to furnish your filter with populations of them. Fish should not be added to the aquarium at this time (unless you add these live bacteria cultures) as the elevations in the levels of ammmonia and then nitrite are particularly dangerous to the lives of them, during this cycling time. I'm not clear whether you presently have these Dwarf Gouramis that you mention getting some Neon Tetras and Cory's for, but if so, to prevent their deaths during this time of cycling you'll need to monitor your water parameters very closely at this time, making sure to maintain these levels with frequent PWC's (partial water changes) as needed, since they will otherwise spike out higher than the fishes can tolerate. I would not recommend adding any fishes until you cycle is completed. Adding to this, I don't think you need to be concerned yet at this time, about adding fish, as it will be a while before your parameters will be acceptable to fish. I wish you luck in maintaining your Dwarf Gouramis during this period, if you've already obtained them. BTW, you mention getting "A Cory"; please be advised that Cory's are best kept at least in small numbers, as they do best in the company of their own (or similar) kind. Since you state you are presently cycling your tank, would you please indicate to us just what processes you are undertaking in promoting this. Your procedure in this may help us guide you through it if we see anything amiss. Ray -- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i like dwarf gouraims so i am going to get them some neon tetras and a cory > cat. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:32:05 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and > need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank > for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small > tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a > confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day > long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not > enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh > water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health > issues just like any creature can. > > Amber > > On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > > > >Hi Emma, > > > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > > over-populate this > > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > > unhappy Emma! > > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > > of Neon Tetra's? > > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > > and eye > > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > > think the Tetra's > > >are more colorful. > > > > > >Bill > > > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > > these species you decide on. > > > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > > > >Dawn > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > >> > > >> i was going to get male and female together. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >> > > >> > > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > >> > > >> Amber > > >> > > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > >> > > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > >> > some fry. > > >> > > > >> > ________________________________ > > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@ <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >> > > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > > Gouramis > > >> > are one of > > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > > guppies, > > >> > the best > > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > >> > once in my > > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > >> > decided to put > > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > > tend to > > >> > be quite > > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > >> > flowing fins. > > >> > > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > >> > regular fish > > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > >> > week (just > > >> > to boost them up). > > >> > > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > >> > ones I see > > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > > put it > > >> > in a > > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > >> > and, they > > >> > should be inaggressive. > > >> > > > >> > -Gian > > >> > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50119	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

What about the underwater “glue” meant for corals? I’ve always meant to try it, but have not. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:20 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums It's not a strong bond to begin with. Aquarium silicone would probably be better, but sometimes you want something that is just temporary (easier to remove). And sometimes you need it to "grab" right away while the silicone takes awhile to set up. I'm using hot glue to make betta cages for my fry so they can stay in the main tank and so far haven't had any problems with it. It is fragile so you can't handle it roughly. But I don't think that has anything to do with the water, the plastic they sell for the glue guns just doesn't hold well to hard surfaces. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "pkvzookeeper" <keptbythecats@...> wrote: > > I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50120	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

One source on Google said their lifespan is four or five years. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Emma Caccia Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:43 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis i asked my mom again and she said they lived a year ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@... <mailto:steve%40familyszabo.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:54:26 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gouramis (Helostoma temminckii) can reach 12" in a tank. They get larger in nature. There really is no way the would survive in a 10 gallon tank for long without serious consequences. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50121	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Hi Emma, My following commentary here is in no way meant as derogatory remark, but as clarification as to how long Kissing Gouramis can often live. I'm not sure if you're aware that only one year for a life of this species is not really all that good or not, You may be under the impression that since they lived a year, that this was an accomplishment. That your Mom did maintain two of these fish in such adverse (for them) conditions as only a ten gallon tank for as long as she did (one year) is a credit to her in that respect, but the truth of the matter is that these fish do need a much larger tank to fully prosper. It's of no surprise that they didn't survive much after only a year. Reports I've read indicate the average lifespan for Kissing Gourami's (Helostoma temmincki) to be at least 8 or 9 years when housed in adequate-sized tanks. Numerous reports indicate their living to between 10, 11 and 12 years, with many more sporadic reports telling of their owners keeping them for 15, 16, 19 and even 20 years. I'm aware of two other Kissing Gourami's which lived for 25 and 26 years, respectively -- and were still alive at the time of them being reported. Just one example I note when Googling, cites a Kissing Gourami that was purchased on 2/12/90 and which was still alive when reported less than 2 years ago in 2009 -- it was 19 years old then and still going strong. One other isolated incident was of the hobbyist who bought her Kissing Gourami 25 years ago (as I noted above), which is older than her son who was born since that time and it too was still going strong when reported; she was keeping her fish in a 50 gallon aquarium, and it reached about 12" long. Many of these hobbyist were maintaining their Kissing Gourami's in at least a 30 gallon, or larger, tank -- and a number of these fish had the tank to themselves. I'm hoping this gives you some idea of what these fish require in maintaining them so that they'll prosper. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > i asked my mom again and she said they lived a year > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:54:26 PM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > > Kissing gouramis (Helostoma temminckii) can reach 12" in a tank. They get > larger in nature. There really is no way the would survive in a 10 gallon > tank for long without serious consequences. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:32 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and > need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank > for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small > tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a > confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day > long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not > enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh > water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health > issues just like any creature can. > > Amber > > On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > > > >Hi Emma, > > > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > > over-populate this > > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > > unhappy Emma! > > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > > of Neon Tetra's? > > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > > and eye > > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > > think the Tetra's > > >are more colorful. > > > > > >Bill > > > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > > these species you decide on. > > > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > > > >Dawn > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > >> > > >> i was going to get male and female together. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >> > > >> > > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > > >> > > >> Amber > > >> > > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > >> > > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > > >> > some fry. > > >> > > > >> > ________________________________ > > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@ <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > > >> > > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > > Gouramis > > >> > are one of > > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > > guppies, > > >> > the best > > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > > >> > once in my > > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > > >> > decided to put > > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > > tend to > > >> > be quite > > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > > >> > flowing fins. > > >> > > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > > >> > regular fish > > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > > >> > week (just > > >> > to boost them up). > > >> > > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > > >> > ones I see > > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > > put it > > >> > in a > > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > > >> > and, they > > >> > should be inaggressive. > > >> > > > >> > -Gian > > >> > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50122	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: info on peacock gobies wanted please!

Hi Kwondrash (if that is your name), Yes, Peacock Gobies (also called Peacock Gudgeon) are quite colorful fish and are enjoyed by a number of hobbyists. While being called "Gobies," they are not true Gobies but are in a group known as "Sleeper Gobies." That said, they do not require brackish water conditions as many of the true Gobies do. Average requirements for them -- which are variable, just as many other fishes can also adapt to somewhat different conditions -- include enjoying a pH of around neutral (7.0), being maintained between a temperature of 72 o and 79 o F, and having a moderate hardness of about 7 dGH. While an average size for them when being offered for sale is often around 1" in length, when attaining full size, the males can reach about 2 3/4" long while the females remain a bit smaller at between 1 3/4" to 2" long. When spawning, a mixture of R/O water may be used if your tap water is exceptionally hard, as they then prefer the hardness to be about 60 ppm. Wild caught Peacock Gobies can be a problem when getting them to eat though, if only offered flake food, as they prefer live foods. This would include live adult Brine Shrimp, Daphnia, Glassworms and perhaps on occasion, Blackworms. If live food is not available, you can try frozen Bloodworms, Mosquito Larvae and Daphnia, etc. Ask the shopkeeper if these are tank raised or wild caught, and ask him to demonstrate feeding them to ensure that they'll eat, The responsible shopkeeper will welcome this request. While the Peacock Goby is a peaceful member of the heterospecific community tank, as they mature, these conspecific males are known to quarrel with each other. Therefore, unless these fish are sexable when buying them, and you buy only one male (mature males have humps on their heads), adequate retreats for these fish should especially be supplied to prevent aggression. Even when not purchasing multiple males, it's still a good idea to supply cover for each of these fish included in the tank. Many hobbyists use small lengths of 3/4" PVC piping to which they first coat with a thin layer of silicone sealer which they then add their gravel to, to create a natural looking coating. Other protective housings used are sections of coconut shells and small inverted clay flowerpots. BTW, they also use these shelters as spawning sites. By this, you can see that these fish are not always observable unless you choose not to supply them with cover, but then, you'll be risking the possibility of aggressive behavior injuring these fish as they mature, unless only one is bought. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > > I was recently made aware of a very colorful fish called a peacock goby. I'm wondering what you folks can tell me about it before I decide to look into getting them. Water requirements? Foods they do well on? How easy/difficult they are to keep? > Another question is in regards to using the RO water from the grocery store...do you find it helps soften your water in the tank? Good to use or not? > Thanks!!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50123	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Donna, I would suspect that 4 years is not correct for a properly cared for fish. In fact, most of what I found on the web showed a lifespan of 5-7 years, which, I suspect, is still under-estimating the true lifespan of the fish. It is notoriously hard to determine the lifespan of a fish. However, the larger the fish, the longer the lifespan is. As an example, the lifespan of a goldfish is often cited as 25 years. Many do not live anywhere near that long. They die young from mistreatment, for the most part. The oldest goldfish on record was 43 years old (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/414114.stm ). This would suggest that the lifespan of a gold fish is actually longer than the oft cited 25 years. The koi is also a notoriously long lived fish. The oldest recorded age for a koi is 226 years (http://www.flickr.com/photos/balcer17/2255019328/. One can commonly expect a koi to live 80-100 years. For the kissers, there is anecdotal evidence that they will live 10-15 years. See http://badmanstropicalfish.com/profiles/profile60.html in the comments section. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donna Ransome Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:54 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis One source on Google said their lifespan is four or five years. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Emma Caccia Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:43 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis i asked my mom again and she said they lived a year ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@... <mailto:steve%40familyszabo.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 10:54:26 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gouramis (Helostoma temminckii) can reach 12" in a tank. They get larger in nature. There really is no way the would survive in a 10 gallon tank for long without serious consequences. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 10:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis Kissing gourami's are not dwarf gourami's. They get rather large and need a large tank. I'm surprised they lived at all in a 10 gallon tank for very long. It's much similar to keeping goldfish in such a small tank. They become stunted and get health issues from living in such a confined space. It's like keeping a large dog in an apartment all day long, they often develop behavioral issues and health issues from not enough exercise and stimulation. Fish need adequate space and fresh water on a regular basis, or they can develop behavioral and health issues just like any creature can. Amber On 1/22/2011 2:10 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll > go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten > gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > > > >I too have been following this thread. First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything. It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you. You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily > over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too! End result, dead fish and an > unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > > > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full > of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice > and eye > >catching display tank. The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I > think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > > > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 > different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed > answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about > mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank. > > > >The fact remains that it won't work. If you are looking to begin > breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand > that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species. There are > very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space. If all > you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, > even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of > the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not > going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... > it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which > includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, > dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more > than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons). Breeding fish is more > complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small > enclosed space. Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the > adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around. Fish are > very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the > large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any > species of fish. There is also no way to get around the fact that most > adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white > clouds for your 10 gallon tank. I agree that would be a great option. > If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then > you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to > do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be > any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin > danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald > rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small > blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios. With any of these species your > max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of > these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change > the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia > <horserider283@...> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >> > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. > Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with > guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males > tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to > put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50124	From: Ray	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: dwarf gouramis

Hi Emma, With following this thread from the start, it appears to me that you might feel that a 10 gallon tank is humongous -- and it can appear hugh to the beginner -- but please be aware that this is not an especially large quantity of water. I remember when my uncle bought me a 15 gallon tank for my 12th birthday, it looked to me like a 50 gallon tank with unlimited space for an unlimited number of fishes, compared to the home-made 8 gallon tank I was using before then. This is just not so though, as a 15 (or 10) gallon tank is quite finite in it's capacity to hold fish. If this will help, just picture any stream or pond you've been at and then picture your 20" long 10 gallon tank submerged in it. You may now be able to see exactly how small such a tank is in comparison to a fish's natural environment, not to mention the biological processes that take place in the enclosed environment which must now be taken into consideration for the best promotion of the fish and its health. As for breeding, you can't just expect to plunk two fish (male & female) into a tank and automatically expect them to breed -- unless they tend to be more of the "rabbits" of the aquarium world (such as some of the many livebearers). Generally, but also depending upon the species with some being easier to breed (Zebra Danio's, for instance), with most of the egglayers it's just not that easy to expect "instant fish." Certain conditions must be met for many of them, and the hobbyist must first learn more not only about fishes in general but about the specific fish he or she intends to have breed for them. As it seems you are just starting out, I would suggest your getting a good book of the basics on fishkeeping, such as the Baensch Atlas, Volume I, with which you can gain much more needed knowledge about in the hobby of fish keeping. Often, these books can be found on eBay for a good cost savings. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi okay i just got it set up today so i can,t return it i think i'll go with my idea no offense. But my mom had 2 kissing gouraims in a ten gallon tank when she was a kid and they did fine. > > On Sat Jan 22nd, 2011 5:21 PM EST bill 1433 wrote: > > >Hi Emma, > >  > >I too have been following this thread.  First, if all you can have now is > >a 10-gallon tank, then forget breeding anything.  It simply won't work > >for you or anyone else that try's it, just as Dawn has told you.  You need > >room for any fish even Guppies or Mollies, they will easily over-populate this > >size tank and rather quickly too!  End result, dead fish and an unhappy Emma! > >We don't want this to happen to you! > >  > >Again if a ten is the largest you can have may I suggest a tank full of Neon Tetra's? > >8 or so in a ten with maybe 2 Cory Cats and you will have a very nice and eye > >catching display tank.  The White Mountain Clouds will work too but I think the Tetra's > >are more colorful. > >  > >Bill > > > >--- On Sat, 1/22/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 2:28 PM > > > > > > > > > >Emma, > >I just wanted to point out that posting the same question(s) into 2 different groups is not going to change the answer. > > > >In both groups I noticed that Ray provided you with a very detailed answer about the gouramis, as well as some very detailed info about mixing gouramis and angelfish in a 10 gallon tank.  > > > >The fact remains that it won't work.  If you are looking to begin breeding fish just to get fry of any species, you need to understand that a 10 gallon tank is quite limited for most species.  There are very few that can successfully breed in that amount of space.  If all you have is a single 10 gallon tank, I would like to forewarn you, even if you can get a small species (such as badis badis or some of the small killiefish) to spawn for you in there, that tank is not going to be large enough to hold the fry and parent fish together... it simply isn't enough space for something like that. > > > >If you wish to breed fish you will need to be prepared, which includes doing research on the species of fish, their spawning habits, dietary needs for both adults and fry, and its going to require more than 1 aquarium (larger than 10 gallons).  Breeding fish is more complicated than just putting a male and female together in a small enclosed space.  Raising fry is more complicated than just watching the adult fish spawn and seeing little baby fish swimming around.  Fish are very sensitive to water quality, and there is no way to get around the large amounts of waste that happen when you have a new spawn of any species of fish.  There is also no way to get around the fact that most adult fish will eat the fry if they have an opportunity. > > > >There was a suggestion in the other group for a 1/2 dozen white clouds for your 10 gallon tank.  I agree that would be a great option.  If you are really stuck on the idea of breeding dwarf gouramis then you are going to need at least 2 tanks, and larger than 10 gallons to do it in, and it doesn't matter who you ask about it... > > > >Other good options for fish that can be kept in 10 gallons would be any of the small killiefish species, badis badis, zebra or longfin danios, galaxy rasboras, guppies if they are all the same sex, emerald rasboras, amande tetras, signifur rainbows and most of the other small blue eyed rainbows, and choprae danios.  With any of these species your max limit for fish in 10 gallons would be 4 - 6, depending on which of these species you decide on. > > > >I know this isn't what you were wanting to hear, but we can't change the needs of these animals just to appease our own amusement.  > > > >Dawn        > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > >> > >> i was going to get male and female together. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 11:11:46 PM > >> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > >>    > >> The gouramis will most likely eat the guppy fry. All of mine do. > >> > >> Amber > >> > >> On 1/20/2011 5:38 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > >> > > >> > okay i was going to get 2 of them male and female and hopefully get > >> > some fry. > >> > > >> > ________________________________ > >> > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@ <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> > Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 6:26:43 PM > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dwarf gouramis > >> > > >> > Actually, I already had an experience with keeping gouramis. Gouramis > >> > are one of > >> > my favorite pets. Regarding your question about gouramis with guppies, > >> > the best > >> > answer would be it depends. In my experience, I kept a male gourami > >> > once in my > >> > guppy tank, but it kept on chasing them and harassing them, so I > >> > decided to put > >> > the gourami in a solitary tank. Gouramis, specially the males tend to > >> > be quite > >> > aggressive with fish smaller than its size and fishes with long > >> > flowing fins. > >> > > >> > Gouramis are very easy to care and maintain. Just feed them the > >> > regular fish > >> > food and a treat of live foods like mosquito larvae at least once a > >> > week (just > >> > to boost them up). > >> > > >> > Generally, gouramis are inaggressive with their same kind, like the > >> > ones I see > >> > at pet stores. So it would be nice to keep a species tank or to put it > >> > in a > >> > community tank as long as the other fishes are nearly the size of it > >> > and, they > >> > should be inaggressive. > >> > > >> > -Gian > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > > >> > >>  > >> > >> > >>        > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50125	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50126	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Using Hot Glue in Aquariums

Hello:    Glue is no good for aquariums and may even be toxic.  Aquarium sealant grade Silicon is the only stuff that should be used in sealing or building tanks.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: pkvzookeeper <keptbythecats@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 3:20:57 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Hot Glue in Aquariums   I have noticed a few people suggesting the use of hot glue guns in aquariums. I was told that the glue is not safe and when used in contact with water (without fish),it come undone easily. What do you think? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50127	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50128	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Black Moor Goldfish

I spoke with my buddy. He got three little Black Moors. "Three for $10." I can tell by the price that they're just babies. He says they look TINY in his 55g but he understands that they will grow, and that three are too much for his tank. But that's what he got. The tank has two HOB filters and a bubble volcano that looks like Mount Fuji. Apparently he is going with a "Godzilla destroys Tokyo" theme. He laminated a Godzilla poster for the back. He says he even found silk plants that look like cherry blossom trees. Too bad he's not a computer-person. I'd love to see pictures! :oD ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50129	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50130	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50131	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? I'm a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond with 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50132	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will survive the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything I have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is what I could afford at the time. I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so darn round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I think. Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find someone willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet care just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in a spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with and my male cat can just lump it. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? I'm a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond with 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50133	From: duffy928542002	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Breeding egglayers

Here's a pic of my 75 gal tank - I added it to the Members photos, called "75 gallon". One dwarf gold gourami, 12 neons, 12 some small tetra I can never remember the name of, one female dalmatian molly, one small cory. I have a 15 gal tank I'd like to try to breed an egglayer but it sounds tough for neons and tetras also. How do you keep the water warm if its only filled partway? The heaters won't work right. Any suggestion for a fish to breed? For a first timer? How are rasboras to breed? One website said they adhere their eggs under certain broad leafed plants, another said they scatter - both for Harlequins. I have to keep what I raise no one to sell to. I love this group. Rick

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50134	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it sucessfully when it flared up. I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <safirezprincess@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will survive the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything I have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is what I could afford at the time. I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so darn round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I think. Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find someone willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet care just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in a spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with and my male cat can just lump it. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? I'm a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond with 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50135	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Also, exactly what symptoms do the fish have? I want to get my dr kit together and make sure I have everything I will need! :) Ps see u were right, I'm a goldfish freak! Lol PPS is the water still cloudy? What did the airpump run? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <safirezprincess@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will survive the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything I have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is what I could afford at the time. I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so darn round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I think. Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find someone willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet care just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in a spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with and my male cat can just lump it. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? I'm a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond with 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. 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Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50136	From: jan1213@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

I love reading this thread Janis -----Original Message----- From: safirezprincess <safirezprincess@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it sucessfully when it flared up. I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: <safirezprincess@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will survive the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything I have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is what I could afford at the time. I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so darn round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I think. Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find someone willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet care just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in a spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with and my male cat can just lump it. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? I'm a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond with 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish also. Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the tank filled with something else. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home DebR, If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, and realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post it to see if there is other local interest. I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if any members may have an interest. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DebR Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, All, I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square tank, stand, and all the trappings. I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to take care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month and the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking in water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can be recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have to devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. Thanks! DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. 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Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50137	From: haecklers	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

A lot of sources say the easiest egg layers to raise are zebra danios. I keep hatching them by accident - find fry in the water after I squeeze out the filter. I tried saving some but didn't give them the attention they needed and had nowhere to put them. They'll breed in a bucket, lol! The kind called "Glo-Fish" are genetically modified, and some people are playing around with them. They are albino danios with genes from anemones and jellyfish inserted to make them the different colors. If you breed one with a regular danio you get regular looking fry but the fun begins when you breed those fry to each other - you get striped fry with vivid fluorescent colors. You can't sell them because the genes are patented but you can breed them for your own tanks or give them away to friends. They chose the danios because they are so easy to breed. I think my problem was the infusoria I was giving them had these biggish (1/4") worms in it and it looked like something was eating the fry - I don't know if it was those worms or something else. I probably should have filtered the infusoria through a shrimp net before adding it. Here's an article on how/why glofish were developed: http://www.nus.edu.sg/research/rg12.php And some interesting stuff on breeding them: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143368 Betta fish are pretty satisfying to breed but it's a problem when you get 200 - 400 fry and half are males and they suddenly all need to be separated! At least danios are pretty peaceful when kept in a group! Here are the best instructions I've seen on breeding bettas: http://www.flippersandfins.net/bettabreedingarticle.htm If you want to breed convicts, you'll need to give them their own tank and have another one ready for removing the female or parents (my male started trying to kill the female about a month after the eggs hatched). Convicts have really cool parenting behavior - they guard the eggs, move the babies in their mouths, watch over them and dig up food from the substrate for the fry to eat. You can find yourself quickly overrun with them, tho and some pet stores don't want them - too many people breeding them. Some places they use them as feeders for other fish. Good convict cichlid article: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Cichlid,%20Convicts%202.htm (if you search there is a marbled kind that is really pretty cool and another called "Honduran" that has more color. If you got and bred those, you may find people willing to actually pay you for the fry you breed) Any kind of fish you breed will eventually fill up your tanks and make you feel over-run, tho. It's one of the hazards of breeding fish. You can try putting ads on Craigslist or Aquabid to find them homes. I've met some really cool people via fish ads on Craigslist. Beware the problem of thinking your fish are really special and can't go to just anyone, tho, or you really will get over-run! (Right now I feel like my betta fry are too special to go to just anyone). I've heard corys are easy to breed if you give them the right conditions - mine are making a mess of my planted tanks by digging and clouding the water, so they're not my favorites. Ancistrus are another that is fairly easy to breed and will be welcomed by most fish lovers (tho mine eat holes in my plant leaves, even with twice daily feedings). If you choose those, go for the albinos, they are smaller and less destructive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "duffy928542002" <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > Here's a pic of my 75 gal tank - I added it to the Members photos, called "75 gallon". One dwarf gold gourami, 12 neons, 12 some small tetra I can never remember the name of, one female dalmatian molly, one small cory. I have a 15 gal tank I'd like to try to breed an egglayer but it sounds tough for neons and tetras also. How do you keep the water warm if its only filled partway? The heaters won't work right. Any suggestion for a fish to breed? For a first timer? How are rasboras to breed? One website said they adhere their eggs under certain broad leafed plants, another said they scatter - both for Harlequins. I have to keep what I raise no one to sell to. I love this group. Rick >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50138	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

You might also want to check out http://www,glofish.com for information on the glofish, from the start until now. You cannot sell them if you do have fry, BTW. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 4:57 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Breeding egglayers A lot of sources say the easiest egg layers to raise are zebra danios. I keep hatching them by accident - find fry in the water after I squeeze out the filter. I tried saving some but didn't give them the attention they needed and had nowhere to put them. They'll breed in a bucket, lol! The kind called "Glo-Fish" are genetically modified, and some people are playing around with them. They are albino danios with genes from anemones and jellyfish inserted to make them the different colors. If you breed one with a regular danio you get regular looking fry but the fun begins when you breed those fry to each other - you get striped fry with vivid fluorescent colors. You can't sell them because the genes are patented but you can breed them for your own tanks or give them away to friends. They chose the danios because they are so easy to breed. I think my problem was the infusoria I was giving them had these biggish (1/4") worms in it and it looked like something was eating the fry - I don't know if it was those worms or something else. I probably should have filtered the infusoria through a shrimp net before adding it. Here's an article on how/why glofish were developed: http://www.nus.edu.sg/research/rg12.php And some interesting stuff on breeding them: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143368 Betta fish are pretty satisfying to breed but it's a problem when you get 200 - 400 fry and half are males and they suddenly all need to be separated! At least danios are pretty peaceful when kept in a group! Here are the best instructions I've seen on breeding bettas: http://www.flippersandfins.net/bettabreedingarticle.htm If you want to breed convicts, you'll need to give them their own tank and have another one ready for removing the female or parents (my male started trying to kill the female about a month after the eggs hatched). Convicts have really cool parenting behavior - they guard the eggs, move the babies in their mouths, watch over them and dig up food from the substrate for the fry to eat. You can find yourself quickly overrun with them, tho and some pet stores don't want them - too many people breeding them. Some places they use them as feeders for other fish. Good convict cichlid article: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Cichlid,%20Convicts%202.htm (if you search there is a marbled kind that is really pretty cool and another called "Honduran" that has more color. If you got and bred those, you may find people willing to actually pay you for the fry you breed) Any kind of fish you breed will eventually fill up your tanks and make you feel over-run, tho. It's one of the hazards of breeding fish. You can try putting ads on Craigslist or Aquabid to find them homes. I've met some really cool people via fish ads on Craigslist. Beware the problem of thinking your fish are really special and can't go to just anyone, tho, or you really will get over-run! (Right now I feel like my betta fry are too special to go to just anyone). I've heard corys are easy to breed if you give them the right conditions - mine are making a mess of my planted tanks by digging and clouding the water, so they're not my favorites. Ancistrus are another that is fairly easy to breed and will be welcomed by most fish lovers (tho mine eat holes in my plant leaves, even with twice daily feedings). If you choose those, go for the albinos, they are smaller and less destructive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "duffy928542002" <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > Here's a pic of my 75 gal tank - I added it to the Members photos, called "75 gallon". One dwarf gold gourami, 12 neons, 12 some small tetra I can never remember the name of, one female dalmatian molly, one small cory. I have a 15 gal tank I'd like to try to breed an egglayer but it sounds tough for neons and tetras also. How do you keep the water warm if its only filled partway? The heaters won't work right. Any suggestion for a fish to breed? For a first timer? How are rasboras to breed? One website said they adhere their eggs under certain broad leafed plants, another said they scatter - both for Harlequins. I have to keep what I raise no one to sell to. I love this group. Rick >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50139	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: mollies

okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50140	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

Thanks ill let u know what happens Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 21:56:49 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Breeding egglayers A lot of sources say the easiest egg layers to raise are zebra danios. I keep hatching them by accident - find fry in the water after I squeeze out the filter. I tried saving some but didn't give them the attention they needed and had nowhere to put them. They'll breed in a bucket, lol! The kind called "Glo-Fish" are genetically modified, and some people are playing around with them. They are albino danios with genes from anemones and jellyfish inserted to make them the different colors. If you breed one with a regular danio you get regular looking fry but the fun begins when you breed those fry to each other - you get striped fry with vivid fluorescent colors. You can't sell them because the genes are patented but you can breed them for your own tanks or give them away to friends. They chose the danios because they are so easy to breed. I think my problem was the infusoria I was giving them had these biggish (1/4") worms in it and it looked like something was eating the fry - I don't know if it was those worms or something else. I probably should have filtered the infusoria through a shrimp net before adding it. Here's an article on how/why glofish were developed: http://www.nus.edu.sg/research/rg12.php And some interesting stuff on breeding them: http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143368 Betta fish are pretty satisfying to breed but it's a problem when you get 200 - 400 fry and half are males and they suddenly all need to be separated! At least danios are pretty peaceful when kept in a group! Here are the best instructions I've seen on breeding bettas: http://www.flippersandfins.net/bettabreedingarticle.htm If you want to breed convicts, you'll need to give them their own tank and have another one ready for removing the female or parents (my male started trying to kill the female about a month after the eggs hatched). Convicts have really cool parenting behavior - they guard the eggs, move the babies in their mouths, watch over them and dig up food from the substrate for the fry to eat. You can find yourself quickly overrun with them, tho and some pet stores don't want them - too many people breeding them. Some places they use them as feeders for other fish. Good convict cichlid article: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Cichlid,%20Convicts%202.htm (if you search there is a marbled kind that is really pretty cool and another called "Honduran" that has more color. If you got and bred those, you may find people willing to actually pay you for the fry you breed) Any kind of fish you breed will eventually fill up your tanks and make you feel over-run, tho. It's one of the hazards of breeding fish. You can try putting ads on Craigslist or Aquabid to find them homes. I've met some really cool people via fish ads on Craigslist. Beware the problem of thinking your fish are really special and can't go to just anyone, tho, or you really will get over-run! (Right now I feel like my betta fry are too special to go to just anyone). I've heard corys are easy to breed if you give them the right conditions - mine are making a mess of my planted tanks by digging and clouding the water, so they're not my favorites. Ancistrus are another that is fairly easy to breed and will be welcomed by most fish lovers (tho mine eat holes in my plant leaves, even with twice daily feedings). If you choose those, go for the albinos, they are smaller and less destructive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "duffy928542002" <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > Here's a pic of my 75 gal tank - I added it to the Members photos, called "75 gallon". One dwarf gold gourami, 12 neons, 12 some small tetra I can never remember the name of, one female dalmatian molly, one small cory. I have a 15 gal tank I'd like to try to breed an egglayer but it sounds tough for neons and tetras also. How do you keep the water warm if its only filled partway? The heaters won't work right. Any suggestion for a fish to breed? For a first timer? How are rasboras to breed? One website said they adhere their eggs under certain broad leafed plants, another said they scatter - both for Harlequins. I have to keep what I raise no one to sell to. I love this group. Rick > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50141	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

Well as far as we know you started your tank without cycling it so you should add this. http://cgi.ebay.com/Dr-Tims-One-and-Only-Live-Nitrifying-Bacteria-SW-2-oz-/380303273401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588bd76db9 -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] mollies okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50142	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

maybe some small tetras/danios? also other live-bearers might be nice. I kept Mollies, Guppies, and Zebra Danios together in a well-planted 30gallon... even got some fry from all parties!! Lauren On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...>wrote: > > > okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with > > them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50143	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

My apologies, that was a link for the saltwater variety. This is for freshwater tanks. http://cgi.ebay.com/Dr-Tim-s-Aquatics-One-And-Only-Freshwater-2oz-New-/140486147895?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b5a07f37 -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Deenerz@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:18 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] mollies Well as far as we know you started your tank without cycling it so you should add this. http://cgi.ebay.com/Dr-Tims-One-and-Only-Live-Nitrifying-Bacteria-SW-2-oz-/380303273401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588bd76db9 -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Cc: tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 4:32 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] mollies okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50144	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Getting Swordtails

I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. Suggestions?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50145	From: DebR	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Hi, Bren, I got the 3 goldfish about 2 1/2 years ago from the mother of my daughter's best friend. She had kept them and a fourth goldfish in a ten gallon aquarium for over a year. The fourth one died after swallowing melted candle wax that her grandson dripped into the tank. When I got them, Carol Burnett (CB) had almost no tail and Lucille and Raven were losing some of theirs as well. CB especially was not acting healthy at all. I moved them into a 20G tank and with the help of this group managed to cure them of what I believe was a fungus problem. Maybe six months or so later I moved them to the 75G tank that they're in now. In October, while I was out in Colorado for a week, CB developed either a fungus or bacteria on her tail again. I was able to get rid of it with salt and by tweaking the PH a bit using baking soda. Right now, all three goldies have frayed fins and tails. CB has white areas along the front of her dorsal fin. I'm trying to decide if they look fuzzy or waxy. It's hard to tell with the water being cloudy and her not sitting still. I still have some salt in the water from when I treated them in October. I'm not sure of the concentration, because my girls did some water changes with out salt to help CB stay upright. Since returning, I've done one 25G water change using 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon. I'm planning on doing another tonight. The tank is 75G. It has a 24"x24" footprint and is 30" tall. It has two AquaClear 70 hob filters with sponge, Purigen, and biofilter and really looong siphon extensions. It also has a Rena 400 air pump with two air stones. (The air pump is currently turned off at night so everyone in the house can sleep.) The 10,000K T5 fluorescent bulb in the lamp was almost dead when I got home. I replaced that, but then saw that the Actinic bulb is dead, now, also. I haven't had a chance to replace that, yet. Also, the girls closed the blinds on the window by the tank and I think that helped kill off some of the algae that I try to maintain on the back side of the tank, since I don't have any live plants in it. I used to have White Cloud Mountain minnows in there, but they only live about two years and they've died off one at a time over the last couple months. I still had one when I left but I see no signs of him now. I think he may have been the initial source of the bacteria bloom along with the lack of daylight and loss of the air pump for several days before I got home. I'll try and get water parameter readings for you after I do the water change tomorrow. I'll also try and search down my Tank log and give you my tap water baseline readings. Everything is in such confusion here right now with trying to pack for the move after being gone for a month. This wasn't supposed to happen until June, but the stress on the marriage has been too much to be able to stick to that schedule. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I > get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off > your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big > goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it > sucessfully when it flared up. > I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned > off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how > long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Cc: <safirezprincess@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am > satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. > > My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick > up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will > survive > the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply > with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a > while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything > I > have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you > get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor > pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is > what I could afford at the time. > > I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so > darn > round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I > think. > > Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find > someone > willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet > care > just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in > a > spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with > and my male cat can just lump it. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <safirezprincess@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? > I'm > a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to > cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a > disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup > of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 > fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond > with > 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room > for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over > there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank > is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints > that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the > person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish > also. > Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of DebR > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle > groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but > not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the > tank > > filled with something else. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > DebR, > > If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, > and > realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, > you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post > it to see if there is other local interest. > > I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for > Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan > (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if > any > members may have an interest. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of DebR > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Hi, All, > > I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a > problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. > > I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three > fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on > her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is > all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square > tank, stand, and all the trappings. > > I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, > Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her > best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in > Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to > take > care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month > and > the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which > resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the > fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the > use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or > bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. > > I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are > building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking > in > water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can > be > recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have > to > devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it > gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, > since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. > > I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any > info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. > > Thanks! > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50146	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Ninja, What is an FFA project? Aquabid almost always has swordtails for sale. Many varieties. Local non chain stores, if possible. Local fish clubs/aquarium societies. Craigslist. Ebay. Classifieds. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. Suggestions?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50147	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) Lauren On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > Ninja, > > What is an FFA project? > > -Mike G > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > Suggestions? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50148	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Thank you for all the info. Here's what I would do. Do two 50 percent water changes a few days apart. Then add three ponds of rock salt or pure water softener salt, one pound per day. Then try to do 20+ percent water changes twice weekly. Add 3 tablespoons of salt per gallon removed in the pwc's. The fish need that much salt and pristine water conditions if they are going to heal. This will also help with the bacterial bloom because it sounds like it was caused by ammonia and the water changes will help the filter have a chance to process all of the ammonia, nitrites, etc and get caught up. Don't wash your filters. If the filter media is just full of goo then just rinse in dechlorinated tap water. Gawd I wish they were here, I would have so much fun playing fish nurse lol. Also cut way down on feeding. Goldfish can easily go a couple weeks without food so don't feel bad about just feeding a tiny bit while they are healing. Ttys Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:20:33 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi, Bren, I got the 3 goldfish about 2 1/2 years ago from the mother of my daughter's best friend. She had kept them and a fourth goldfish in a ten gallon aquarium for over a year. The fourth one died after swallowing melted candle wax that her grandson dripped into the tank. When I got them, Carol Burnett (CB) had almost no tail and Lucille and Raven were losing some of theirs as well. CB especially was not acting healthy at all. I moved them into a 20G tank and with the help of this group managed to cure them of what I believe was a fungus problem. Maybe six months or so later I moved them to the 75G tank that they're in now. In October, while I was out in Colorado for a week, CB developed either a fungus or bacteria on her tail again. I was able to get rid of it with salt and by tweaking the PH a bit using baking soda. Right now, all three goldies have frayed fins and tails. CB has white areas along the front of her dorsal fin. I'm trying to decide if they look fuzzy or waxy. It's hard to tell with the water being cloudy and her not sitting still. I still have some salt in the water from when I treated them in October. I'm not sure of the concentration, because my girls did some water changes with out salt to help CB stay upright. Since returning, I've done one 25G water change using 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon. I'm planning on doing another tonight. The tank is 75G. It has a 24"x24" footprint and is 30" tall. It has two AquaClear 70 hob filters with sponge, Purigen, and biofilter and really looong siphon extensions. It also has a Rena 400 air pump with two air stones. (The air pump is currently turned off at night so everyone in the house can sleep.) The 10,000K T5 fluorescent bulb in the lamp was almost dead when I got home. I replaced that, but then saw that the Actinic bulb is dead, now, also. I haven't had a chance to replace that, yet. Also, the girls closed the blinds on the window by the tank and I think that helped kill off some of the algae that I try to maintain on the back side of the tank, since I don't have any live plants in it. I used to have White Cloud Mountain minnows in there, but they only live about two years and they've died off one at a time over the last couple months. I still had one when I left but I see no signs of him now. I think he may have been the initial source of the bacteria bloom along with the lack of daylight and loss of the air pump for several days before I got home. I'll try and get water parameter readings for you after I do the water change tomorrow. I'll also try and search down my Tank log and give you my tap water baseline readings. Everything is in such confusion here right now with trying to pack for the move after being gone for a month. This wasn't supposed to happen until June, but the stress on the marriage has been too much to be able to stick to that schedule. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I > get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off > your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big > goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it > sucessfully when it flared up. > I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned > off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how > long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Cc: <safirezprincess@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am > satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. > > My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick > up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will > survive > the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply > with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a > while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything > I > have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you > get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor > pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is > what I could afford at the time. > > I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so > darn > round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I > think. > > Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find > someone > willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet > care > just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in > a > spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with > and my male cat can just lump it. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <safirezprincess@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? > I'm > a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to > cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a > disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup > of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 > fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond > with > 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room > for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over > there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank > is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints > that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the > person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish > also. > Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of DebR > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle > groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but > not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the > tank > > filled with something else. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > DebR, > > If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, > and > realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, > you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post > it to see if there is other local interest. > > I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for > Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan > (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if > any > members may have an interest. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of DebR > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Hi, All, > > I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a > problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. > > I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three > fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on > her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is > all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square > tank, stand, and all the trappings. > > I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, > Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her > best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in > Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to > take > care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month > and > the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which > resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the > fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the > use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or > bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. > > I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are > building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking > in > water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can > be > recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have > to > devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it > gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, > since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. > > I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any > info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. > > Thanks! > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50149	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Swordtails breed pretty readily. The challenge is keeping the babies from getting eaten, not buying them! Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: <Deenerz@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails Ninja, What is an FFA project? Aquabid almost always has swordtails for sale. Many varieties. Local non chain stores, if possible. Local fish clubs/aquarium societies. Craigslist. Ebay. Classifieds. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. Suggestions? ------------------------------------ AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50150	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Yes FFA does =Future Farmers of America, and I basically just need a project and I'm a fish person. So if I go on aqua bid, what species would be best if I were trying to make a profit from my project per say? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@...> wrote: > > FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) > > Lauren > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Ninja, > > > > What is an FFA project? > > > > -Mike G > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > > Suggestions?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50151	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/23/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

I was thinking along the lines of something like Xiphophorus montezumae, the Montezuma swordtail, but did not see any listed on Aquabid. In fact, they really did not have much in the way of swords. If you are looking for something to make money with, you need to look at something a bit odd, and not in the line of something people can find in almost any fish store. One thing I did not see mentioned is the length of time you have to conceive and bring this project to fruition. There are some very interesting livebearers out there but they may have far fewer young, not give birth as often as the livebearers you see in the stores. Also, if you want a money making operation, don't forget the fry raising tanks you'll need along with the birthing tanks, etc. Another cost that may be larger than you think is the shipping of the fish. It can get very expensive very quickly, especially in the winter. One way to get around this is to raise killies or rainbows, where you can sell the eggs, and ship them relatively easily and inexpensively. No matter which way you go, do not assume you know enough to get going, read the literature, and ask questions here to get a thorough understanding of what you will need and face in your endeavor. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ninja_penguin_117 Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails Yes FFA does =Future Farmers of America, and I basically just need a project and I'm a fish person. So if I go on aqua bid, what species would be best if I were trying to make a profit from my project per say? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@...> wrote: > > FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) > > Lauren > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Ninja, > > > > What is an FFA project? > > > > -Mike G > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > > Suggestions?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50152	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: betta fry

Thanks for the infusoria thing guys! The eggs already hatched and your suggestions really helped a lot. Thanks, and God bless to all of you! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50153	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

Emma, Didn't you read my message? Since you have just set up your tank three days ago, and you're just starting to cycle your tank -- which can take between 4 & 6 weeks to complete -- you should NOT be putting ANY fish in your tank now, until the cycling process is finished. The ammonia and then the nitrite spikes shortly afterwards will place a great stress on any fishes in the tank at these times, very possibly causing their fatalities. But since you're choosing to ignore the advice, possibly knowing better, I'll let you live with the consequences since it's a little late now to do much else. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with > them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50154	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Penguin, Going by you Subject Line of "Getting Swordtails" and your original message in which you only refer to the fish you seek as "Swordtails," I'm tending to understand your plea for these fish as more probably referring to the common Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri). While there are other species of Swordtails infrequentally available in the hobby, and which command more money -- such as the Montezuma Swordtail that \\Steve// suggests -- I'm not sure yet if this is what you had in mind when asking about "what species would be best," or whether you meant what varieties would be best. All varieties of the common Swortail are just that (varieties) and not other species; they are all the same fish. If you're looking for more profitable varieties of Ziphophorus helleri, the Pineapple Swordtail is still one that's being sought after, but the newest and one of the nicest so far to date is the Koi Swordtail, which is still going for a good amount of money. It's one that you're sure to make a fine profit on. One of the two other varieties I have in mind for a higher profit margin, and one that's still not complicated in breeding, albeit commanding more grow-out space and even more PWC's for proper development is the Red Hi-Fin Swordtail. This fish has always been a perrenial favorite and one that always bring much higher price rewards than their more common brothers and sisters. The Red Lyretail (and Red Hi-Fin Lyretail) Swordtail is an especially favorite variety among Helleri afficionadoes, but one requiring more input in breeding and a need for addition rearing tanks just for the program. Best of Luck, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ninja_penguin_117" <ninja_penguin_117@...> wrote: > > Yes FFA does =Future Farmers of America, and I basically just need a project and I'm a fish person. So if I go on aqua bid, what species would be best if I were trying to make a profit from my project per say? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@> wrote: > > > > FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) > > > > Lauren > > > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ninja, > > > > > > What is an FFA project? > > > > > > -Mike G > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > > > > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > > > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > > > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > > > Suggestions? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50155	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Gian, As the eggs have already hatched, this does not mean that it's time to feed the fry. You should not be feeding the fry until after they've absorbed their yolk sacks and are free-swimming. They will not be eating during this period, which takes about three additional days after they hatch. If you haven't already done so, it's always adviseable to start at least a second infusoria culture at this time, in case your original culture crashes. In this way, you'll have a back-up food source for your fry, which you might suffer loses of if they were to starve out as a result of your having no infusoria to feed them; it's good insurance. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Thanks for the infusoria thing guys! The eggs already hatched and your suggestions really helped a lot. > > Thanks, and God bless to all of you! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50156	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Hi Bren, In looking over your salt measurements, if you were to add 3 Tablespoons per gallon, that's of course equivilent to 9 teaspoons per gallon. I don't think you'd want to add that much as there aren't many freshwater fishes that would tolerate this amount -- even if done progressively. While this amount of salt will be added only as a replacement for the salt lost in a PWC (of water already having a salt content, albeit lower) it will soon built up expotentially over time -- and quickly -- with each succeeding PWC until it's near the total amount above. Perhaps you mean to replace the lost salt at a rate of 3 teaspoons (not Tablespoons) per gallon. Now getting to the one pound of salt per day (for 3 consecutive days), unless this is measured by actual weight -- and I'm hoping it is -- if you're measuring by the cupful, and that you might be assuming an 8 ounce (liquid) cup would give you 8 ounces of dry salt and that 2 cups will give you one pound of salt, please know that an 8 ounce (liquid) measuring cup will give you 9.63 ounces of dry salt, not the 8 ounce weight to be looked for, but considerably more. One pound of salt actually equals 1.88 cups of salt (again using the 8 ounce - liquid measure - cup), or 26.58 Tablespoons. Three pounds (by weight) will give you 79.75 Tablespoons added to this 75 gallon tank over 3 days -- or 3.19 teaspoons per gallon, which would work out nicely for Goldfish. It's doubtful many aquatic plants would survive this, but it should address these Goldfish's issues properly. If however, if the pound of salt were to have been based on two 8 ounce liquid cups -- as I first started to illustrate above, and over three days, six 8 ounce liquid cups of salt were added to the 75 gallon tank, there would be 32 Tablespoons of salt added for each two 8 ounce liquid cups for a total of 96 Tablespoons of salt over the 3 days. This would come out to 3.84 teaspoons to the gallon, which is getting a little high, not being very far from 4 teaspoons per gallon. If you've considered the addition of salt as being by actual weight, that's good to hear. I include this here not only for your possible benefit, for as a help to the Group if and when they may need to use the progressive salt method in treating their fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Thank you for all the info. Here's what I would do. Do two 50 percent water changes a few days apart. Then add three ponds of rock salt or pure water softener salt, one pound per day. Then try to do 20+ percent water changes twice weekly. Add 3 tablespoons of salt per gallon removed in the pwc's. The fish need that much salt and pristine water conditions if they are going to heal. This will also help with the bacterial bloom because it sounds like it was caused by ammonia and the water changes will help the filter have a chance to process all of the ammonia, nitrites, etc and get caught up. Don't wash your filters. If the filter media is just full of goo then just rinse in dechlorinated tap water. Gawd I wish they were here, I would have so much fun playing fish nurse lol. Also cut way down on feeding. Goldfish can easily go a couple weeks without food so don't feel bad about just feeding a tiny bit while they are healing. Ttys > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:20:33 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Hi, Bren, > > I got the 3 goldfish about 2 1/2 years ago from the mother of my > daughter's best friend. She had kept them and a fourth goldfish in a ten > gallon aquarium for over a year. The fourth one died after swallowing > melted candle wax that her grandson dripped into the tank. > > When I got them, Carol Burnett (CB) had almost no tail and Lucille and > Raven were losing some of theirs as well. CB especially was not acting > healthy at all. I moved them into a 20G tank and with the help of this > group managed to cure them of what I believe was a fungus problem. Maybe > six months or so later I moved them to the 75G tank that they're in now. > > In October, while I was out in Colorado for a week, CB developed either > a fungus or bacteria on her tail again. I was able to get rid of it with > salt and by tweaking the PH a bit using baking soda. > > Right now, all three goldies have frayed fins and tails. CB has white > areas along the front of her dorsal fin. I'm trying to decide if they look > fuzzy or waxy. It's hard to tell with the water being cloudy and her not > sitting still. I still have some salt in the water from when I treated them > in October. I'm not sure of the concentration, because my girls did some > water changes with out salt to help CB stay upright. Since returning, I've > done one 25G water change using 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon. I'm > planning on doing another tonight. > > The tank is 75G. It has a 24"x24" footprint and is 30" tall. It has > two AquaClear 70 hob filters with sponge, Purigen, and biofilter and really > looong siphon extensions. It also has a Rena 400 air pump with two air > stones. (The air pump is currently turned off at night so everyone in the > house can sleep.) The 10,000K T5 fluorescent bulb in the lamp was almost > dead when I got home. I replaced that, but then saw that the Actinic bulb > is dead, now, also. I haven't had a chance to replace that, yet. Also, the > girls closed the blinds on the window by the tank and I think that helped > kill off some of the algae that I try to maintain on the back side of the > tank, since I don't have any live plants in it. > > I used to have White Cloud Mountain minnows in there, but they only > live about two years and they've died off one at a time over the last couple > months. I still had one when I left but I see no signs of him now. I think > he may have been the initial source of the bacteria bloom along with the > lack of daylight and loss of the air pump for several days before I got > home. > > I'll try and get water parameter readings for you after I do the water > change tomorrow. I'll also try and search down my Tank log and give you my > tap water baseline readings. Everything is in such confusion here right now > with trying to pack for the move after being gone for a month. This wasn't > supposed to happen until June, but the stress on the marriage has been too > much to be able to stick to that schedule. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <safirezprincess@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I > > get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off > > your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big > > goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it > > sucessfully when it flared up. > > I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned > > off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how > > long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: <safirezprincess@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am > > satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. > > > > My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick > > up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will > > survive > > the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply > > with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a > > while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything > > I > > have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you > > get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor > > pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is > > what I could afford at the time. > > > > I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so > > darn > > round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I > > think. > > > > Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find > > someone > > willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet > > care > > just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in > > a > > spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with > > and my male cat can just lump it. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <safirezprincess@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? > > I'm > > a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to > > cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a > > disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup > > of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 > > fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond > > with > > 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room > > for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over > > there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank > > is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints > > that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the > > person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish > > also. > > Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle > > groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but > > not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the > > tank > > > > filled with something else. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > DebR, > > > > If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, > > and > > realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, > > you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post > > it to see if there is other local interest. > > > > I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for > > Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan > > (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if > > any > > members may have an interest. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Hi, All, > > > > I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a > > problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. > > > > I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three > > fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on > > her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is > > all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square > > tank, stand, and all the trappings. > > > > I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, > > Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her > > best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in > > Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to > > take > > care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month > > and > > the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which > > resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the > > fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the > > use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or > > bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. > > > > I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are > > building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking > > in > > water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can > > be > > recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have > > to > > devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it > > gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, > > since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. > > > > I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any > > info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. > > > > Thanks! > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50157	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Make sure you look into how to protect the younglings from being eaten by their parents, or they won't live five minutes. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "ninja_penguin_117" <ninja_penguin_117@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails Yes FFA does =Future Farmers of America, and I basically just need a project and I'm a fish person. So if I go on aqua bid, what species would be best if I were trying to make a profit from my project per say? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@...> wrote: > > FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) > > Lauren > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Ninja, > > > > What is an FFA project? > > > > -Mike G > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: ninja_penguin_117 > > <ninja_penguin_117@...<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > > Suggestions? ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50158	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Villandra, Thank for your post to the Penguin. It reminds me of something I could add here to assure better results. If possible, try to refrain from using those breeder traps. While they may be good for smaller livebears, like Guppies, larger fish such as Swordtailssometimes find them too confining and the stress can cause them to drop their young prematurely. If Penquin does prefer to use these traps, it should be known that just the act of netting Swordtail females too close (within the last 10 or even 12 days) to their delivery date can also be enough stress so as to cause them to deliver prematurely. IF confining a female to a breeding trap is preferred, it should preferably be netted only during the first two weeks (not much more than 16 -- perhaps 18 days) before delivery. It's best to allow the female the run of the tank, with including lots of Java Moss or Najas "Grass." If there is such a number of adult Swordtails in the tank so as to pose a danger to the fry, remove the female early to a smaller plant-loaded tank of her own -- like a 5 gallon tank. When working with larger breeding tanks, such as a 55 gallon, unless the adult population is numerous, as long as there is lots of plant cover in the tank for the fry, most if not all should survive. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Make sure you look into how to protect the younglings from being eaten by > their parents, or they won't live five minutes. > > Yours, > Villandra Thorsdottir > Austin, Texas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ninja_penguin_117" <ninja_penguin_117@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 9:47 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails > > > Yes FFA does =Future Farmers of America, and I basically just need a project > and I'm a fish person. So if I go on aqua bid, what species would be best if > I were trying to make a profit from my project per say? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@> > wrote: > > > > FFA = Future Farmers of America (at least that's what I know of as FFA!) > > > > Lauren > > > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 8:24 PM, <Deenerz@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Ninja, > > > > > > What is an FFA project? > > > > > > -Mike G > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: ninja_penguin_117 > > > <ninja_penguin_117@<ninja_penguin_117%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 5:19 pm > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Getting Swordtails > > > > > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's > > > for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a > > > place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. > > > Suggestions? > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50159	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

Ray thanks for the concern and details on the matter, and, may I add - the incredible math skills! The math I've always been given is based on a percentage. Also goldfish people are aware that salt is very forgiving and you can double the three pound per hundred gallon dose with no harm. If the fish act very skittish or very lethargic then do a pwc. I use this dose personally. I've had goldfish and koi, in ponds and tanks for about a decade, give or take a couple years. Ive been in every goldfish and koi group that was serious. We do weigh the salt for pounds. And for goldfish and koi we go by TBSP not teaspoons. It seemed like a lot to me at first, and just unnatural. But one time when I was broke and my goldies were sick, I was advised by a woman in one of my groups to use the rocksalt that I had sitting around for the icy sidewalk - it was winter. This woman was in the professional koi curcuit of collecting and showing koi that cost so much you wouldn't believe me if you told me. She relied heavily on salt for the health of her koi so I did what she said and the rest is history. This dosage is only for sick fish and only left in the water for 3 weeks on average. As you know, use pure salt, not table salt. Kosher salt, water softener salt without additives and rock salt are good sources or just buy aquarium salt at the lfs. And also temporarily rehome plants snails and other tank companions while treating with salt. Thank you for your input :) Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:12:33 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi Bren, In looking over your salt measurements, if you were to add 3 Tablespoons per gallon, that's of course equivilent to 9 teaspoons per gallon. I don't think you'd want to add that much as there aren't many freshwater fishes that would tolerate this amount -- even if done progressively. While this amount of salt will be added only as a replacement for the salt lost in a PWC (of water already having a salt content, albeit lower) it will soon built up expotentially over time -- and quickly -- with each succeeding PWC until it's near the total amount above. Perhaps you mean to replace the lost salt at a rate of 3 teaspoons (not Tablespoons) per gallon. Now getting to the one pound of salt per day (for 3 consecutive days), unless this is measured by actual weight -- and I'm hoping it is -- if you're measuring by the cupful, and that you might be assuming an 8 ounce (liquid) cup would give you 8 ounces of dry salt and that 2 cups will give you one pound of salt, please know that an 8 ounce (liquid) measuring cup will give you 9.63 ounces of dry salt, not the 8 ounce weight to be looked for, but considerably more. One pound of salt actually equals 1.88 cups of salt (again using the 8 ounce - liquid measure - cup), or 26.58 Tablespoons. Three pounds (by weight) will give you 79.75 Tablespoons added to this 75 gallon tank over 3 days -- or 3.19 teaspoons per gallon, which would work out nicely for Goldfish. It's doubtful many aquatic plants would survive this, but it should address these Goldfish's issues properly. If however, if the pound of salt were to have been based on two 8 ounce liquid cups -- as I first started to illustrate above, and over three days, six 8 ounce liquid cups of salt were added to the 75 gallon tank, there would be 32 Tablespoons of salt added for each two 8 ounce liquid cups for a total of 96 Tablespoons of salt over the 3 days. This would come out to 3.84 teaspoons to the gallon, which is getting a little high, not being very far from 4 teaspoons per gallon. If you've considered the addition of salt as being by actual weight, that's good to hear. I include this here not only for your possible benefit, for as a help to the Group if and when they may need to use the progressive salt method in treating their fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Thank you for all the info. Here's what I would do. Do two 50 percent water changes a few days apart. Then add three ponds of rock salt or pure water softener salt, one pound per day. Then try to do 20+ percent water changes twice weekly. Add 3 tablespoons of salt per gallon removed in the pwc's. The fish need that much salt and pristine water conditions if they are going to heal. This will also help with the bacterial bloom because it sounds like it was caused by ammonia and the water changes will help the filter have a chance to process all of the ammonia, nitrites, etc and get caught up. Don't wash your filters. If the filter media is just full of goo then just rinse in dechlorinated tap water. Gawd I wish they were here, I would have so much fun playing fish nurse lol. Also cut way down on feeding. Goldfish can easily go a couple weeks without food so don't feel bad about just feeding a tiny bit while they are healing. Ttys > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:20:33 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Hi, Bren, > > I got the 3 goldfish about 2 1/2 years ago from the mother of my > daughter's best friend. She had kept them and a fourth goldfish in a ten > gallon aquarium for over a year. The fourth one died after swallowing > melted candle wax that her grandson dripped into the tank. > > When I got them, Carol Burnett (CB) had almost no tail and Lucille and > Raven were losing some of theirs as well. CB especially was not acting > healthy at all. I moved them into a 20G tank and with the help of this > group managed to cure them of what I believe was a fungus problem. Maybe > six months or so later I moved them to the 75G tank that they're in now. > > In October, while I was out in Colorado for a week, CB developed either > a fungus or bacteria on her tail again. I was able to get rid of it with > salt and by tweaking the PH a bit using baking soda. > > Right now, all three goldies have frayed fins and tails. CB has white > areas along the front of her dorsal fin. I'm trying to decide if they look > fuzzy or waxy. It's hard to tell with the water being cloudy and her not > sitting still. I still have some salt in the water from when I treated them > in October. I'm not sure of the concentration, because my girls did some > water changes with out salt to help CB stay upright. Since returning, I've > done one 25G water change using 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon. I'm > planning on doing another tonight. > > The tank is 75G. It has a 24"x24" footprint and is 30" tall. It has > two AquaClear 70 hob filters with sponge, Purigen, and biofilter and really > looong siphon extensions. It also has a Rena 400 air pump with two air > stones. (The air pump is currently turned off at night so everyone in the > house can sleep.) The 10,000K T5 fluorescent bulb in the lamp was almost > dead when I got home. I replaced that, but then saw that the Actinic bulb > is dead, now, also. I haven't had a chance to replace that, yet. Also, the > girls closed the blinds on the window by the tank and I think that helped > kill off some of the algae that I try to maintain on the back side of the > tank, since I don't have any live plants in it. > > I used to have White Cloud Mountain minnows in there, but they only > live about two years and they've died off one at a time over the last couple > months. I still had one when I left but I see no signs of him now. I think > he may have been the initial source of the bacteria bloom along with the > lack of daylight and loss of the air pump for several days before I got > home. > > I'll try and get water parameter readings for you after I do the water > change tomorrow. I'll also try and search down my Tank log and give you my > tap water baseline readings. Everything is in such confusion here right now > with trying to pack for the move after being gone for a month. This wasn't > supposed to happen until June, but the stress on the marriage has been too > much to be able to stick to that schedule. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <safirezprincess@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I > > get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load off > > your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big > > goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it > > sucessfully when it flared up. > > I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone turned > > off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and how > > long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: <safirezprincess@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am > > satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. > > > > My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to pick > > up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will > > survive > > the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply > > with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for a > > while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring everything > > I > > have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once you > > get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor > > pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this is > > what I could afford at the time. > > > > I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so > > darn > > round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I > > think. > > > > Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find > > someone > > willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet > > care > > just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage in > > a > > spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes with > > and my male cat can just lump it. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <safirezprincess@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? > > I'm > > a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to > > cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a > > disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a cup > > of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 > > fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond > > with > > 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of room > > for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over > > there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon tank---tank > > is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints > > that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the > > person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish > > also. > > Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle > > groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, but > > not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the > > tank > > > > filled with something else. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > DebR, > > > > If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, > > and > > realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high priority, > > you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can post > > it to see if there is other local interest. > > > > I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for > > Michigan-- http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan > > (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if > > any > > members may have an interest. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Hi, All, > > > > I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a > > problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. > > > > I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in three > > fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on > > her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven is > > all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square > > tank, stand, and all the trappings. > > > > I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, > > Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and her > > best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in > > Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to > > take > > care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month > > and > > the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which > > resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see the > > fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with the > > use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or > > bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. > > > > I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we are > > building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be trucking > > in > > water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can > > be > > recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd have > > to > > devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus it > > gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, > > since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. > > > > I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any > > info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. > > > > Thanks! > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50160	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

What is your time line? Like, how long do you have to complete this project? Some fish are hard to get money for, you pretty much have to give them away. Others are more desirable and you can actually sell them. The one that is most likely to make you money would be raising red cherry shrimp, because fish stores have a hard time getting them to survive the shipping. They take 30 days to "hatch" their babies (come off the mother's tails as miniatures of the full-grown shrimp). You'd want to save the first batch as a starter breeding colony so after around 60 days you may be able to start selling them. Trapdoor snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), Ramshorn snails are all easy to breed and are often sold for $1 - $2 in pet stores. They can be hard to find. Trapdoor snails are good for making infusoria for fry food, MTS keep gravel clean and eat algae off the tank walls, and Ramshorn snails are just big and cool :) Marmokrebs, or self-cloning crayfish are also selling for $15 each. We got some and they took about 2 months to have their first babies (again, tiny versions of the mother come off of her tail). In warm water they grow faster. Tiny crayfish are adorable and really easy to sell. I accidentally siphoned a bunch when I was cleaning the gravel (didn't realize they were there yet) and so I only wound up with 5 the first batch. Another thing you could grow for profit would be aquatic plants - vallisneria will take over a tank in a few months if it likes the conditions. Apongetons and Java fern can make many babies off the original parent. Some kinds of crypts and sword plants spread by root runners and you can get baby plants popping up all over the place. Anubis or Christmas moss tied to wood or stone until the roots take hold is selling for $15 a piece, too. Use fishing twine, not cotton string! Marmokrebs eat plants and snails, but you could have a tank of plants, red cherry shrimp, and snails for 3 profit-making enterprises at once. Placing an ad on Freecycle or Craigslist asking for starts may be a cheap way to go - hobbyist often have plenty to share even when fish stores can't keep them in stock. With a lot of kinds of fish, you spend more than you ever earn. That's why it's more of a hobby with people hoping to recoup some of their expenses more than a profit-making enterprise. If you factor in equipment - tank, filter, heater, nets; food, cost of electricity, medications (if you need them), it easily far out weighs the amount you earn. And most pet stores don't want them until they're at least half-grown which often means you need additional tanks to use for growing them out. If you keep them crowded they don't grow very fast and can get permanently stunted. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ninja_penguin_117" <ninja_penguin_117@...> wrote: > > I am looking for a place were I can get some swordtails to breed. It's for an FFA project so I need to make some money. So I basically need a place to get breeding swordtails that isn't going to break my wallet. Suggestions? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50161	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one squirt per 2 gallons). When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates were getting high enough to need a water change. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50162	From: DebR	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home

K, just to let you know where things stand at the moment. I'm in the middle of a 33% water change. I'm waiting for the temp to go back up in the tank so I can finish adding the new water. I added 1 Tablespoon per gallon, because, if I make it any higher than that, CB is stuck on her back. I have cut back on the food since getting home a bit over a week ago, because I was afraid that was adding to the problem. It's still cloudy, but now I can see the HOBs on the back of the tank. I grabbed some water to test before starting to add the new, so here are my before readings using API's Master Test Kit: pH: 7.6 (higher than normal due to adding baking soda last time); Ammonia: 0; Nitrites: 0; Nitrates: between 80 and 160 (there was probably an algae die off from lack of light and 3 days with no bubbles, but I didn't expect it to be this high). I would have been surprised if there was an ammonia problem. I haven't had an ammonia reading above 0 in two years. I WILL call you, Bren. There just aren't enough hours in the day lately. DebR and the Three Goldfish (CB, Lucille, and Raven) ----- Original Message ----- From: <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Ray thanks for the concern and details on the matter, and, may I add - the incredible math skills! The math I've always been given is based on a percentage. Also goldfish people are aware that salt is very forgiving and you can double the three pound per hundred gallon dose with no harm. If the fish act very skittish or very lethargic then do a pwc. I use this dose personally. I've had goldfish and koi, in ponds and tanks for about a decade, give or take a couple years. Ive been in every goldfish and koi group that was serious. We do weigh the salt for pounds. And for goldfish and koi we go by TBSP not teaspoons. It seemed like a lot to me at first, and just unnatural. But one time when I was broke and my goldies were sick, I was advised by a woman in one of my groups to use the rocksalt that I had sitting around for the icy sidewalk - it was winter. This woman was in the professional koi curcuit of collecting and showing koi that cost so much you wouldn't believe me if you told me. She relied heavily on salt for the health of her koi so I did what she said and the rest is history. This dosage is only for sick fish and only left in the water for 3 weeks on average. As you know, use pure salt, not table salt. Kosher salt, water softener salt without additives and rock salt are good sources or just buy aquarium salt at the lfs. And also temporarily rehome plants snails and other tank companions while treating with salt. Thank you for your input :) Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:12:33 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home Hi Bren, In looking over your salt measurements, if you were to add 3 Tablespoons per gallon, that's of course equivilent to 9 teaspoons per gallon. I don't think you'd want to add that much as there aren't many freshwater fishes that would tolerate this amount -- even if done progressively. While this amount of salt will be added only as a replacement for the salt lost in a PWC (of water already having a salt content, albeit lower) it will soon built up expotentially over time -- and quickly -- with each succeeding PWC until it's near the total amount above. Perhaps you mean to replace the lost salt at a rate of 3 teaspoons (not Tablespoons) per gallon. Now getting to the one pound of salt per day (for 3 consecutive days), unless this is measured by actual weight -- and I'm hoping it is -- if you're measuring by the cupful, and that you might be assuming an 8 ounce (liquid) cup would give you 8 ounces of dry salt and that 2 cups will give you one pound of salt, please know that an 8 ounce (liquid) measuring cup will give you 9.63 ounces of dry salt, not the 8 ounce weight to be looked for, but considerably more. One pound of salt actually equals 1.88 cups of salt (again using the 8 ounce - liquid measure - cup), or 26.58 Tablespoons. Three pounds (by weight) will give you 79.75 Tablespoons added to this 75 gallon tank over 3 days -- or 3.19 teaspoons per gallon, which would work out nicely for Goldfish. It's doubtful many aquatic plants would survive this, but it should address these Goldfish's issues properly. If however, if the pound of salt were to have been based on two 8 ounce liquid cups -- as I first started to illustrate above, and over three days, six 8 ounce liquid cups of salt were added to the 75 gallon tank, there would be 32 Tablespoons of salt added for each two 8 ounce liquid cups for a total of 96 Tablespoons of salt over the 3 days. This would come out to 3.84 teaspoons to the gallon, which is getting a little high, not being very far from 4 teaspoons per gallon. If you've considered the addition of salt as being by actual weight, that's good to hear. I include this here not only for your possible benefit, for as a help to the Group if and when they may need to use the progressive salt method in treating their fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Thank you for all the info. Here's what I would do. Do two 50 percent > water changes a few days apart. Then add three ponds of rock salt or pure > water softener salt, one pound per day. Then try to do 20+ percent water > changes twice weekly. Add 3 tablespoons of salt per gallon removed in the > pwc's. The fish need that much salt and pristine water conditions if they > are going to heal. This will also help with the bacterial bloom because it > sounds like it was caused by ammonia and the water changes will help the > filter have a chance to process all of the ammonia, nitrites, etc and get > caught up. Don't wash your filters. If the filter media is just full of > goo then just rinse in dechlorinated tap water. Gawd I wish they were > here, I would have so much fun playing fish nurse lol. Also cut way down > on feeding. Goldfish can easily go a couple weeks without food so don't > feel bad about just feeding a tiny bit while they are healing. Ttys > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:20:33 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > Hi, Bren, > > I got the 3 goldfish about 2 1/2 years ago from the mother of my > daughter's best friend. She had kept them and a fourth goldfish in a ten > gallon aquarium for over a year. The fourth one died after swallowing > melted candle wax that her grandson dripped into the tank. > > When I got them, Carol Burnett (CB) had almost no tail and Lucille > and > Raven were losing some of theirs as well. CB especially was not acting > healthy at all. I moved them into a 20G tank and with the help of this > group managed to cure them of what I believe was a fungus problem. Maybe > six months or so later I moved them to the 75G tank that they're in now. > > In October, while I was out in Colorado for a week, CB developed > either > a fungus or bacteria on her tail again. I was able to get rid of it with > salt and by tweaking the PH a bit using baking soda. > > Right now, all three goldies have frayed fins and tails. CB has > white > areas along the front of her dorsal fin. I'm trying to decide if they > look > fuzzy or waxy. It's hard to tell with the water being cloudy and her not > sitting still. I still have some salt in the water from when I treated > them > in October. I'm not sure of the concentration, because my girls did some > water changes with out salt to help CB stay upright. Since returning, > I've > done one 25G water change using 1 Tablespoon of salt per gallon. I'm > planning on doing another tonight. > > The tank is 75G. It has a 24"x24" footprint and is 30" tall. It has > two AquaClear 70 hob filters with sponge, Purigen, and biofilter and > really > looong siphon extensions. It also has a Rena 400 air pump with two air > stones. (The air pump is currently turned off at night so everyone in the > house can sleep.) The 10,000K T5 fluorescent bulb in the lamp was almost > dead when I got home. I replaced that, but then saw that the Actinic bulb > is dead, now, also. I haven't had a chance to replace that, yet. Also, > the > girls closed the blinds on the window by the tank and I think that helped > kill off some of the algae that I try to maintain on the back side of the > tank, since I don't have any live plants in it. > > I used to have White Cloud Mountain minnows in there, but they only > live about two years and they've died off one at a time over the last > couple > months. I still had one when I left but I see no signs of him now. I > think > he may have been the initial source of the bacteria bloom along with the > lack of daylight and loss of the air pump for several days before I got > home. > > I'll try and get water parameter readings for you after I do the > water > change tomorrow. I'll also try and search down my Tank log and give you > my > tap water baseline readings. Everything is in such confusion here right > now > with trying to pack for the move after being gone for a month. This > wasn't > supposed to happen until June, but the stress on the marriage has been too > much to be able to stick to that schedule. > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <safirezprincess@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Oh, I'm so happy for both of us! Me for getting three new babies that I > > get to nurse back to health. And you, as you said, it takes a big load > > off > > your mind. This is great. I know how to treat swim bladder. I had a big > > goldfish with chronic swim bladder problems and I would treat it > > sucessfully when it flared up. > > I suspect the white stuff was a bacterial bloom. You said someone > > turned > > off the air pump. What kind of filter system do you have in there and > > how > > long have you had them in that tank. Do you know the fishes ages? > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DebR <menageriemanager@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:41:38 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: <safirezprincess@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Sold! Er, well, given! I checked your posts on the group and am > > satisfied you're a for real goldfish freak, hehe. > > > > My husband arrives from Colorado this evening and then we have to > > pick > > up our van, which is being given the once over to make sure it will > > survive > > the trip back in February. I Cc'ed your email address, so you can reply > > with your home address, etc. I'm pretty sure I'm done keeping fish for > > a > > while, for financial as well as locational reasons. I'll bring > > everything > > I > > have and you can take whatever you think you can use. I expect, once > > you > > get them cured, you may want to put them in a longer tank or your indoor > > pond. This one wasn't my ideal tank, but I had them in a 20G and this > > is > > what I could afford at the time. > > > > I'll caution you that CB has a swim bladder issue, due to being so > > darn > > round. It's normally not too bad, but the salt is aggravating it, I > > think. > > > > Wow! Is this ever a load off my mind. Now I just need to find > > someone > > willing to take a very friendly FIV positive stray cat that needed vet > > care > > just before I left a month ago and has been living in a large dog cage > > in > > a > > spare room ever since. Any takers??? If not, then I guess he comes > > with > > and my male cat can just lump it. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <safirezprincess@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 12:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > I'm in grand blanc, 48439-near holly MI. Any chance you could deliver? > > I'm > > a goldfish addict and take wonderful care of my fish. I also know how to > > cure just about anything that ails them. I'm home all day because of a > > disability so you could come at your convenience and I will make you a > > cup > > of tea and show you my dwarf african frog tank and basement pond with 5 > > fancy goldfish permantly homed there. I also have a 10 foot across pond > > with > > 3 dozen pond goldfish in it. I have a good sized house and plenty of > > room > > for another tank. Just a thought. Bren :) > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:26:35 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > I pretty much stay away from craigslist. Too much scamming going on over > > there. You could get sneaky over at freecycle--OFFER 75 gallon > > tank---tank > > is currently set up and has goldfish in it, will empty to move. It hints > > that there are fish, but it also hints that tank will be empty for the > > person who takes it. Off list, you can find out if they want the fish > > also. > > Not exactly breaking the rules, but it may get your point across. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 11:23 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Thanks, Steve. I hadn't thought of Aquabid. Our local Freecycle > > groups don't permit the posting of pets. I did think of Craigs List, > > but > > not sure how to list them so the goldfish don't get disposed of and the > > tank > > > > filled with something else. > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:33 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > > > DebR, > > > > If no one here takes you up on this, you can put the lot up on Aquabid, > > and > > realize some cash for it, or if moving it out of there is a high > > priority, > > you can check to see if you have a local freecycle group that you can > > post > > it to see if there is other local interest. > > > > I do not know if there are any clubs in your area--here is a listing for > > Michigan-- > > http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Local_Fish_Clubs.htm#Michigan > > (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4vhoqll) that you can check with to see if > > any > > members may have an interest. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of DebR > > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 8:48 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] SE Michigan - 3 goldfish to good home > > > > Hi, All, > > > > I've been gone for a while and tend not to post unless I have a > > problem. I do read, though when I can. Yep, I've got more problems. > > > > I'm hoping someone in Michigan might be interested in taking in > > three > > fantailed round bodied goldfish. Lucille Ball is white with orange on > > her/his head. Carol Burnett is gold with white on her/his tail. Raven > > is > > all black with big eyes (black moor). They come with a 75G tall square > > tank, stand, and all the trappings. > > > > I'm getting ready to move from Metro Detroit to Pagos Springs, > > Colorado. I was planning on leaving my goldfish with my daughter and > > her > > best friend from high school, who will be renting our house here in > > Michigan. Unfortunately they don't seem to have the time or income to > > take > > care of them properly. I came back from visiting my husband for a month > > and > > the air pump had gotten noisy so they had simply turned it off, which > > resulted in a major bloom of white stuff so dense that I couldn't see > > the > > fish unless they were up against the glass. It's slowly clearing with > > the > > use of salt and several water changes. They've gotten some fungus or > > bacteria on their tails and fins, too, that seems to be clearing up now. > > > > I would bring the fish out to Colorado, but the property where we > > are > > building has no access to public water or electricity. We'll be > > trucking > > in > > water and using solar panels for electricity. The water, I suppose, can > > be > > recycled to a garden, but I can't imagine how much solar energy we'd > > have > > to > > devote just to running pumps, filters and lights for a 75G tank. Plus > > it > > gets over 100F there in the summer, so I'd have to cool the tanks, too, > > since I doubt we'll have air conditioning. > > > > I'm looking for local groups to post this to, also. I you have any > > info on a group in SE Michigan, please let me know. > > > > Thanks! > > > > DebR and the Three Goldfish > > (CB, Lucille, and Raven) > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50163	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Our water department adds more Chloramine to the water in the winter than summer since it doesn't kill off the bad bugs as well. Cold slows the process so they add more to get the job done. Do you use a Chlorine test kit? I never leave something as serious as Chlorine to chance. Too much water conditioner only wastes money, it won't kill fish. Sounds like the Chlorine got to the fishes gills and did some damage and they went to the surface because they couldn't breath with damaged gills. If they get a real good breath of Chlorinated water, they may have so much gill damage your addition of De-chlorinator doesn't do any good. It clears the water but the damage is already done. In a large tank like that 125, your addition of chemicals is diluted so much that it doesn't get to do the work it needs to do. Most important is to test the water before you walk away thinking your task is done. I change water in my tanks like you do often. Never not do a test for the stuff. http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ Charles H >I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 >gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a >python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water >before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was >needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a >heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from >the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, >like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the >tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added >about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the >airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could >this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? >Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one >squirt per 2 gallons). > >When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if >I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 >gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I >didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active >and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 >gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > >The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates >were getting high enough to need a water change. > >Amber > >------------------------------------ -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50164	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

If your tap water is very cold it could have dissolved gasses in it that gave the fish "the bends" - same thing as deep-sea divers get, or so I've read. See this: http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-water/90261-bubbles-during-water-change.html There is also something where when you change the water temperature it changes the tank parameters pretty quickly - I forgot if it makes the nitrates skyrocket or drastically changes the pH, or maybe both. So like Charles said, test the water before and after and you may figure out what's going on (not that you'll want to repeat this experience!). Also test several hours after adding the new water, it may change over the course of hours. I've seen other people say that after a water change their pH went down to 6, then slowly creeped back up again. I think someone said that was from dissolved gasses coming out. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > Our water department adds more Chloramine to the > water in the winter than summer since it doesn't > kill off the bad bugs as well. Cold slows the > process so they add more to get the job done. Do > you use a Chlorine test kit? I never leave > something as serious as Chlorine to chance. Too > much water conditioner only wastes money, it > won't kill fish. Sounds like the Chlorine got to > the fishes gills and did some damage and they > went to the surface because they couldn't breath > with damaged gills. > > If they get a real good breath of Chlorinated > water, they may have so much gill damage your > addition of De-chlorinator doesn't do any good. > It clears the water but the damage is already > done. In a large tank like that 125, your > addition of chemicals is diluted so much that it > doesn't get to do the work it needs to do. > > Most important is to test the water before you > walk away thinking your task is done. > > I change water in my tanks like you do often. > Never not do a test for the stuff. > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > Charles H > > > > >I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > >gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > >python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > >before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > >needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > >heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > >the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > >like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > >tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > >about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > >airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > >this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > >Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > >squirt per 2 gallons). > > > >When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > >I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > >gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > >didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > >and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > >gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > > >The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > >were getting high enough to need a water change. > > > >Amber > > > >------------------------------------ > > > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50165	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Hi Amber, There is still a lot to know about these dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may have a background in chemistry and by his very informative reply, it appears even he has not grasped the concept of what's going on. However, that some public water suppliers will add more chloramine in the Winter months can have something to do with this problem, although not all water companies necessarily use all that much more of this additive during these months. Regardless of any possible additional quantities of chloramine being added to the water, most of us are (or should be) aware that the colder that the water is, the greater concentrations of any gases that it will hold. On top of that, the higher the pressure that the water is under when it's being pumped through the water system, again, the water has an even greater potential for holding even more gases. During the Winter, even if similar quantities of chloramine are added to the water now as compared to the Summer, the water itself, under pressure and much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. That you added more dechloramine was the correct move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move that you left out, to address the consequences of the additional product -- which you just coincidentally finally did do when your fish were gasping at the surface. The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. So much so, that when there is substantially more chloramine in the water, and you rightly add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these products can deplete the oxygen content of the water below that which fish need to live on. When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular AmQuel was discontinued, there were many complaints that hobbyists were experiencing die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- just that this product (and especially THIS product, rather than Prime) was killing their fish. As Prime does act in a similar way though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they are two somewhat different products), it too can deplete the water of oxygen but not as seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it too works similarly. When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at all times to increase the aeration before treating new water being added to the tank during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium conversion process without depleting the water's oxygen content to a level below that which the fish need. This especially goes when treating colder water in Winter that will naturally hold more chloramine, but is best to do at any time as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, you shouldn't have this problem happen to you again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > squirt per 2 gallons). > > When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > were getting high enough to need a water change. > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50166	From: ninja_penguin_117	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

I have three years for this project and plenty of tanks. All I really need is the fish and their food. So I decided to just start at my local pet store, find a good species, and go from there. So what kinds of food would be a good general starting point if I were to get killifish or swordtails? And if I don't have a heater, will it be harder or even impossible to get the killifish/swordtails to breed if the water is only room temperature? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What is your time line? Like, how long do you have to complete this project? Some fish are hard to get money for, you pretty much have to give them away. Others are more desirable and you can actually sell them. The one that is most likely to make you money would be raising red cherry shrimp, because fish stores have a hard time getting them to survive the shipping. They take 30 days to "hatch" their babies (come off the mother's tails as miniatures of the full-grown shrimp). You'd want to save the first batch as a starter breeding colony so after around 60 days you may be able to start selling them. > > Trapdoor snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), Ramshorn snails are all easy to breed and are often sold for $1 - $2 in pet stores. They can be hard to find. Trapdoor snails are good for making infusoria for fry food, MTS keep gravel clean and eat algae off the tank walls, and Ramshorn snails are just big and cool :) > > Marmokrebs, or self-cloning crayfish are also selling for $15 each. We got some and they took about 2 months to have their first babies (again, tiny versions of the mother come off of her tail). In warm water they grow faster. Tiny crayfish are adorable and really easy to sell. I accidentally siphoned a bunch when I was cleaning the gravel (didn't realize they were there yet) and so I only wound up with 5 the first batch. > > Another thing you could grow for profit would be aquatic plants - vallisneria will take over a tank in a few months if it likes the conditions. Apongetons and Java fern can make many babies off the original parent. Some kinds of crypts and sword plants spread by root runners and you can get baby plants popping up all over the place. Anubis or Christmas moss tied to wood or stone until the roots take hold is selling for $15 a piece, too. Use fishing twine, not cotton string! > > Marmokrebs eat plants and snails, but you could have a tank of plants, red cherry shrimp, and snails for 3 profit-making enterprises at once. Placing an ad on Freecycle or Craigslist asking for starts may be a cheap way to go - hobbyist often have plenty to share even when fish stores can't keep them in stock. > > With a lot of kinds of fish, you spend more than you ever earn. That's why it's more of a hobby with people hoping to recoup some of their expenses more than a profit-making enterprise. If you factor in equipment - tank, filter, heater, nets; food, cost of electricity, medications (if you need them), it easily far out weighs the amount you earn. And most pet stores don't want them until they're at least half-grown which often means you need additional tanks to use for growing them out. If you keep them crowded they don't grow very fast and can get permanently stunted.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50167	From: Scott Westhoff	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hot Glue

I have used hot glue to build new filter replacements for years. No problems yet.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50168	From: Melani	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

the killifish dont really need the heat and improves the longitivity of there life but they mature slower. i feed my killis flake food with the accasional black worms. Be careful with the black worms though because if a few get into the gravel they with start there own little population and i cant figure out how to get rid of them! Ha! well i hope this helps! --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> wrote: From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 3:25 PM   I have three years for this project and plenty of tanks. All I really need is the fish and their food. So I decided to just start at my local pet store, find a good species, and go from there. So what kinds of food would be a good general starting point if I were to get killifish or swordtails? And if I don't have a heater, will it be harder or even impossible to get the killifish/swordtails to breed if the water is only room temperature? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What is your time line? Like, how long do you have to complete this project? Some fish are hard to get money for, you pretty much have to give them away. Others are more desirable and you can actually sell them. The one that is most likely to make you money would be raising red cherry shrimp, because fish stores have a hard time getting them to survive the shipping. They take 30 days to "hatch" their babies (come off the mother's tails as miniatures of the full-grown shrimp). You'd want to save the first batch as a starter breeding colony so after around 60 days you may be able to start selling them. > > Trapdoor snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), Ramshorn snails are all easy to breed and are often sold for $1 - $2 in pet stores. They can be hard to find. Trapdoor snails are good for making infusoria for fry food, MTS keep gravel clean and eat algae off the tank walls, and Ramshorn snails are just big and cool :) > > Marmokrebs, or self-cloning crayfish are also selling for $15 each. We got some and they took about 2 months to have their first babies (again, tiny versions of the mother come off of her tail). In warm water they grow faster. Tiny crayfish are adorable and really easy to sell. I accidentally siphoned a bunch when I was cleaning the gravel (didn't realize they were there yet) and so I only wound up with 5 the first batch. > > Another thing you could grow for profit would be aquatic plants - vallisneria will take over a tank in a few months if it likes the conditions. Apongetons and Java fern can make many babies off the original parent. Some kinds of crypts and sword plants spread by root runners and you can get baby plants popping up all over the place. Anubis or Christmas moss tied to wood or stone until the roots take hold is selling for $15 a piece, too. Use fishing twine, not cotton string! > > Marmokrebs eat plants and snails, but you could have a tank of plants, red cherry shrimp, and snails for 3 profit-making enterprises at once. Placing an ad on Freecycle or Craigslist asking for starts may be a cheap way to go - hobbyist often have plenty to share even when fish stores can't keep them in stock. > > With a lot of kinds of fish, you spend more than you ever earn. That's why it's more of a hobby with people hoping to recoup some of their expenses more than a profit-making enterprise. If you factor in equipment - tank, filter, heater, nets; food, cost of electricity, medications (if you need them), it easily far out weighs the amount you earn. And most pet stores don't want them until they're at least half-grown which often means you need additional tanks to use for growing them out. If you keep them crowded they don't grow very fast and can get permanently stunted. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50169	From: Melani	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

i have had baloon mollies with guppies platies and other live bearers. Tetras would be fine too.Danios i think they find a little fast and annoying but hey not every one can be happy all the time!They are wonderful and the fry are so fun to watch get their big bellies!I adore them and have the cuteset picture of a male and female next to each other. Hope this helps! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with > them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50170	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

Where is everyone getting the black worms? I'd love to have some breeding in my substrate! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Melani <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: >Be careful with the black worms though because if a few get into the gravel they with start there own little population and i cant figure out how to get rid of them! Ha! well i hope this helps! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50171	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

One thing I'm not sure anyone has thought of; you need the tank biologically mature before swordtails would be comfy enough to breed, and that takes a minimum of several months. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails the killifish dont really need the heat and improves the longitivity of there life but they mature slower. i feed my killis flake food with the accasional black worms. Be careful with the black worms though because if a few get into the gravel they with start there own little population and i cant figure out how to get rid of them! Ha! well i hope this helps! --- On Mon, 1/24/11, ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> wrote: From: ninja_penguin_117 <ninja_penguin_117@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 3:25 PM I have three years for this project and plenty of tanks. All I really need is the fish and their food. So I decided to just start at my local pet store, find a good species, and go from there. So what kinds of food would be a good general starting point if I were to get killifish or swordtails? And if I don't have a heater, will it be harder or even impossible to get the killifish/swordtails to breed if the water is only room temperature? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What is your time line? Like, how long do you have to complete this > project? Some fish are hard to get money for, you pretty much have to give > them away. Others are more desirable and you can actually sell them. The > one that is most likely to make you money would be raising red cherry > shrimp, because fish stores have a hard time getting them to survive the > shipping. They take 30 days to "hatch" their babies (come off the mother's > tails as miniatures of the full-grown shrimp). You'd want to save the > first batch as a starter breeding colony so after around 60 days you may > be able to start selling them. > > Trapdoor snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), Ramshorn snails are all > easy to breed and are often sold for $1 - $2 in pet stores. They can be > hard to find. Trapdoor snails are good for making infusoria for fry food, > MTS keep gravel clean and eat algae off the tank walls, and Ramshorn > snails are just big and cool :) > > Marmokrebs, or self-cloning crayfish are also selling for $15 each. We got > some and they took about 2 months to have their first babies (again, tiny > versions of the mother come off of her tail). In warm water they grow > faster. Tiny crayfish are adorable and really easy to sell. I accidentally > siphoned a bunch when I was cleaning the gravel (didn't realize they were > there yet) and so I only wound up with 5 the first batch. > > Another thing you could grow for profit would be aquatic plants - > vallisneria will take over a tank in a few months if it likes the > conditions. Apongetons and Java fern can make many babies off the original > parent. Some kinds of crypts and sword plants spread by root runners and > you can get baby plants popping up all over the place. Anubis or Christmas > moss tied to wood or stone until the roots take hold is selling for $15 a > piece, too. Use fishing twine, not cotton string! > > Marmokrebs eat plants and snails, but you could have a tank of plants, red > cherry shrimp, and snails for 3 profit-making enterprises at once. Placing > an ad on Freecycle or Craigslist asking for starts may be a cheap way to > go - hobbyist often have plenty to share even when fish stores can't keep > them in stock. > > With a lot of kinds of fish, you spend more than you ever earn. That's why > it's more of a hobby with people hoping to recoup some of their expenses > more than a profit-making enterprise. If you factor in equipment - tank, > filter, heater, nets; food, cost of electricity, medications (if you need > them), it easily far out weighs the amount you earn. And most pet stores > don't want them until they're at least half-grown which often means you > need additional tanks to use for growing them out. If you keep them > crowded they don't grow very fast and can get permanently stunted. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50172	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Hello Jackie, There are many sites/web-pages on the internet purporting to have definitive information, when in fact this information is unfounded. Additionally, many of these sites copy the same information from other similar sites without checking the authenticity of the information. In fact, some of these sites look as though they are written by an authority, when they're not, but then they often appear to be to someone not knowing otherwise. Unless the hobbyists knows for sure (which is often impossible if he or she is seeking information unknown to them), it's best to avoid these web-pages. It is well known that with all the hog-wash posted on the 'Net, that the hobbyist can't, or should not, believe all that is being read. I realize that you offer the passing on of this information in trying to be of help, but as this is far from your first time directing members to unproven sites, and/or offering information that you yourself are still unsure of, I'd ask you to please refrain from posting such replies unless you're sure that it directly addresses the issue(s) at hand. To offer speculative info can be very disruptive and misleading, and may even be injurious to the member's fish needing help. Unless you know the facts, please do not make these kinds of posts. Some of your reply here is helpful though, such as testing the water before and after -- which is adviseable to keep up with possible chemical changes going on -- even if it was not associated with this issue at hand of problems arising out of using a dechloraminator. If you stick with known facts or generally accepted advice, to pass along, at least it will be factual even if not actually confronting the problems. As for a possible change in pH, as you brought up, some tap water (especially if drawn from a confined source such as a well) may -- partially because of its pH -- be holding larger than normal quantities of dissolved CO2 which needs to (and will) be out-gased as it becomes exposed to the atmosphere. As it does out-gas, it's pH will rise to that of water indicative of the same as which has been in constant contact with the atmosphere, when the general consist of its other parameters are even somewhat similar. While this possibilty which you brought up here would ordinarily be something to look into with fish die-offs during larger PWC's -- if the history was such that the source water contained CO2 (or came from a well) -- but as this problem was directly associated with the use of a dechloraminator, this too was misleading. The difference is in knowing the root of the problem at hand and being intimately familiar with all these problems, not just guessing at them. Thanks for your continued input. Best, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > If your tap water is very cold it could have dissolved gasses in it that gave the fish "the bends" - same thing as deep-sea divers get, or so I've read. See this: http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-water/90261-bubbles-during-water-change.html > > There is also something where when you change the water temperature it changes the tank parameters pretty quickly - I forgot if it makes the nitrates skyrocket or drastically changes the pH, or maybe both. > > So like Charles said, test the water before and after and you may figure out what's going on (not that you'll want to repeat this experience!). Also test several hours after adding the new water, it may change over the course of hours. > > I've seen other people say that after a water change their pH went down to 6, then slowly creeped back up again. I think someone said that was from dissolved gasses coming out. > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > Our water department adds more Chloramine to the > > water in the winter than summer since it doesn't > > kill off the bad bugs as well. Cold slows the > > process so they add more to get the job done. Do > > you use a Chlorine test kit? I never leave > > something as serious as Chlorine to chance. Too > > much water conditioner only wastes money, it > > won't kill fish. Sounds like the Chlorine got to > > the fishes gills and did some damage and they > > went to the surface because they couldn't breath > > with damaged gills. > > > > If they get a real good breath of Chlorinated > > water, they may have so much gill damage your > > addition of De-chlorinator doesn't do any good. > > It clears the water but the damage is already > > done. In a large tank like that 125, your > > addition of chemicals is diluted so much that it > > doesn't get to do the work it needs to do. > > > > Most important is to test the water before you > > walk away thinking your task is done. > > > > I change water in my tanks like you do often. > > Never not do a test for the stuff. > > > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > > > Charles H > > > > > > > > >I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > > >gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > > >python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > > >before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > > >needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > > >heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > > >the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > > >like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > > >tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > > >about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > > >airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > > >this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > > >Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > > >squirt per 2 gallons). > > > > > >When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > > >I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > > >gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > > >didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > > >and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > > >gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > > > > >The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > > >were getting high enough to need a water change. > > > > > >Amber > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > > -- > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > Charles Harrison in St Louis > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50173	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: mollies

thanks i think i will get 2 pairs of guppies and 2 Cory cats. my sis has a molly in my tank so i am hoping that her gold fish will dye soon so mom can get her a heater and move the molly in there so i can get another molly. ________________________________ From: Melani <mlronkovitz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, January 24, 2011 6:53:39 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: mollies i have had baloon mollies with guppies platies and other live bearers. Tetras would be fine too.Danios i think they find a little fast and annoying but hey not every one can be happy all the time!They are wonderful and the fry are so fun to watch get their big bellies!I adore them and have the cuteset picture of a male and female next to each other. Hope this helps! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > okay i just got three balloon bellied mollies what else could i put in with > them? i am defiantly getting some Cory cats. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50174	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

>Hi Amber, > >There is still a lot to know about these >dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to >know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may >have a background in chemistry and by his very >informative reply, it appears even he has not >grasped the concept of what's going on. >However, that some public water suppliers will >add more chloramine in the Winter months can >have something to do with this problem, although >not all water companies necessarily use all that >much more of this additive during these months. May I quote from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and chloramine in aquatic environments and method of making the same) " EXAMPLE II Effect on Oxygen (O2) Level Two water tanks were set up. One contained established fresh water (water previously supporting a variety of aquatic life) and the other contained newly established fresh water comprising 50% de-ionized water and 50% tap water. The dissolved oxygen content level of the water was recorded using a digital YSI oxygen meter which indicate: a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the established tank and 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly established tank. The contaminant detoxifying solution as prepared in Example I was added to each of the tanks in an amount equivalent to 1 teaspoon (about 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. After addition of the solution to the tanks, a second oxygen level reading was taken, which indicated a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the established tank and a level of 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly established tank. These results indicate that the contaminant detoxifying solution has no effect on the oxygen level of an aquatic system which is critical to sustaining aquatic life. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ And as well: The theory by which the amine-based ammonia detoxifying solution acts to detoxify ammonia in the aquatic system is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN. Regardless of the theory or mechanism of action or reaction, however, the present invention produces surprising and unexpected results; namely, the composition and method of using the composition of the present invention effectively and continuously detoxifies ammonia in . . ." > >Regardless of any possible additional quantities >of chloramine being added to the water, most of >us are (or should be) aware that the colder that >the water is, the greater concentrations of any >gases that it will hold. On top of that, the >higher the pressure that the water is under when >it's being pumped through the water system, >again, the water has an even greater potential >for holding even more gases. During the Winter, >even if similar quantities of chloramine are >added to the water now as compared to the >Summer, the water itself, under pressure and >much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. > >That you added more dechloramine was the correct >move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move >that you left out, to address the consequences >of the additional product -- which you just >coincidentally finally did do when your fish >were gasping at the surface. > >The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as >these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into >ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also >use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. >So much so, that when there is substantially >more chloramine in the water, and you rightly >add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these >products can deplete the oxygen content of the >water below that which fish need to live on. > >When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular >AmQuel was discontinued, there were many >complaints that hobbyists were experiencing >die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- >just that this product (and especially THIS >product, rather than Prime) was killing their >fish. As Prime does act in a similar way >though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as >opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they >are two somewhat different products), it too can >deplete the water of oxygen but not as >seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it >too works similarly. > >When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at >all times to increase the aeration before >treating new water being added to the tank >during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium >conversion process without depleting the water's >oxygen content to a level below that which the >fish need. This especially goes when treating >colder water in Winter that will naturally hold >more chloramine, but is best to do at any time >as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, >you shouldn't have this problem happen to you >again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up >the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > >Ray > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: >> >> Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've >> changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I >> have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). >> I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. >> >> I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too >> much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? >> >> I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 >> gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a >> python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water >> before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was >> needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a >> heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from >> the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, >> like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the >> tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added >> about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the >> airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could >> this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? >> Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one >> squirt per 2 gallons). >> >> When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if >> I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 >> gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I >> didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active >> and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 >> gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. >> >> The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates >> were getting high enough to need a water change. >> >> Amber >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all >TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if >CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message >MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject >(was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My >Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 >posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for >the No E-Mail option where you will still be >able to read messages on the group and post >replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -- Cartridges! Cartridges! Cartridges Charles & Sue Harrison http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com Toll free 1-866-677-1900 Call, click or come in for your ink cartridge needs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50175	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Ray, A little behind the scenes here. Amquel was not of Kordon's making. Amquel+ was. What I had heard is that JFK, who developed Amquel, Novaqua, Polyaqua and a few other things sold by Kordon did not want anything to do with Amquel+ because he said it would not work properly. Take it for what it is worth. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:26 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water Hi Amber, There is still a lot to know about these dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may have a background in chemistry and by his very informative reply, it appears even he has not grasped the concept of what's going on. However, that some public water suppliers will add more chloramine in the Winter months can have something to do with this problem, although not all water companies necessarily use all that much more of this additive during these months. Regardless of any possible additional quantities of chloramine being added to the water, most of us are (or should be) aware that the colder that the water is, the greater concentrations of any gases that it will hold. On top of that, the higher the pressure that the water is under when it's being pumped through the water system, again, the water has an even greater potential for holding even more gases. During the Winter, even if similar quantities of chloramine are added to the water now as compared to the Summer, the water itself, under pressure and much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. That you added more dechloramine was the correct move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move that you left out, to address the consequences of the additional product -- which you just coincidentally finally did do when your fish were gasping at the surface. The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. So much so, that when there is substantially more chloramine in the water, and you rightly add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these products can deplete the oxygen content of the water below that which fish need to live on. When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular AmQuel was discontinued, there were many complaints that hobbyists were experiencing die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- just that this product (and especially THIS product, rather than Prime) was killing their fish. As Prime does act in a similar way though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they are two somewhat different products), it too can deplete the water of oxygen but not as seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it too works similarly. When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at all times to increase the aeration before treating new water being added to the tank during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium conversion process without depleting the water's oxygen content to a level below that which the fish need. This especially goes when treating colder water in Winter that will naturally hold more chloramine, but is best to do at any time as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, you shouldn't have this problem happen to you again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > squirt per 2 gallons). > > When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > were getting high enough to need a water change. > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50176	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Hello Charles, In approving you latest message for posting several minutes ago, I find your information quite interesting albeit quite in opposition to what the Kordon lab authorities have written me when I inquired about their AmQuel+ product. Essentially, what I have just passed on concerning this product came directly from the manufacturer of the product. I would not have posted it otherwise. That you information directly contradicts their findings only tells me that your source may be erroneous, yet I thank you for bringing another opinion to light. If further studies, such as what you are suugesting, have brought more to the surface than what may have been previously known it has not yet come to my attention. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > >Hi Amber, > > > >There is still a lot to know about these > >dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to > >know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may > >have a background in chemistry and by his very > >informative reply, it appears even he has not > >grasped the concept of what's going on. > >However, that some public water suppliers will > >add more chloramine in the Winter months can > >have something to do with this problem, although > >not all water companies necessarily use all that > >much more of this additive during these months. > > May I quote from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent > (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and > chloramine in aquatic environments and method of > making the same) > " EXAMPLE II > > Effect on Oxygen (O2) Level > > Two water tanks were set up. One contained > established fresh water (water previously > supporting a variety of aquatic life) and the > other contained newly established fresh water > comprising 50% de-ionized water and 50% tap > water. The dissolved oxygen content level of the > water was recorded using a digital YSI oxygen > meter which indicate: a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in > the established tank and 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly > established tank. The contaminant detoxifying > solution as prepared in Example I was added to > each of the tanks in an amount equivalent to 1 > teaspoon (about 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. > After addition of the solution to the tanks, a > second oxygen level reading was taken, which > indicated a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the > established tank and a level of 6.8 ppm O2 in the > newly established tank. These results indicate > that the contaminant detoxifying solution has no > effect on the oxygen level of an aquatic system > which is critical to sustaining aquatic life. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > And as well: > The theory by which the amine-based ammonia > detoxifying solution acts to detoxify ammonia in > the aquatic system is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN. > Regardless of the theory or mechanism of action > or reaction, however, the present invention > produces surprising and unexpected results; > namely, the composition and method of using the > composition of the present invention effectively > and continuously detoxifies ammonia in . . ." > > > > > > > > > > >Regardless of any possible additional quantities > >of chloramine being added to the water, most of > >us are (or should be) aware that the colder that > >the water is, the greater concentrations of any > >gases that it will hold. On top of that, the > >higher the pressure that the water is under when > >it's being pumped through the water system, > >again, the water has an even greater potential > >for holding even more gases. During the Winter, > >even if similar quantities of chloramine are > >added to the water now as compared to the > >Summer, the water itself, under pressure and > >much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. > > > >That you added more dechloramine was the correct > >move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move > >that you left out, to address the consequences > >of the additional product -- which you just > >coincidentally finally did do when your fish > >were gasping at the surface. > > > >The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as > >these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into > >ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also > >use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. > >So much so, that when there is substantially > >more chloramine in the water, and you rightly > >add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these > >products can deplete the oxygen content of the > >water below that which fish need to live on. > > > >When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular > >AmQuel was discontinued, there were many > >complaints that hobbyists were experiencing > >die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- > >just that this product (and especially THIS > >product, rather than Prime) was killing their > >fish. As Prime does act in a similar way > >though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as > >opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they > >are two somewhat different products), it too can > >deplete the water of oxygen but not as > >seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it > >too works similarly. > > > >When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at > >all times to increase the aeration before > >treating new water being added to the tank > >during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium > >conversion process without depleting the water's > >oxygen content to a level below that which the > >fish need. This especially goes when treating > >colder water in Winter that will naturally hold > >more chloramine, but is best to do at any time > >as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, > >you shouldn't have this problem happen to you > >again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up > >the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > >> > >> Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > >> changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > >> have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > >> I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > >> > >> I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > >> much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > >> > >> I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > >> gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > >> python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > >> before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > >> needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > >> heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > >> the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > >> like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > >> tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > >> about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > >> airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > >> this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > >> Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > >> squirt per 2 gallons). > >> > >> When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > >> I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > >> gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > >> didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > >> and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > >> gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > >> > >> The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > >> were getting high enough to need a water change. > >> > >> Amber > >> > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all > >TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if > >CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > >MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject > >(was re: old subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, > >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your > >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > >Membership" on the home page. > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to > >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 > >posts at a time in a single email > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for > >the No E-Mail option where you will still be > >able to read messages on the group and post > >replies. > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to > >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Cartridges! Cartridges! > Cartridges > Charles & Sue Harrison > http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com > Toll free 1-866-677-1900 > > Call, click or come in for your ink cartridge needs. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50177	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Is it possible that Hagen's method (and patent) of dechloramination is somewhat different yet than either those of Kordon (AmQuel+) or SeaChem (Prime); this may explain the apparent enigma. Ray -- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > >Hi Amber, > > > >There is still a lot to know about these > >dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to > >know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may > >have a background in chemistry and by his very > >informative reply, it appears even he has not > >grasped the concept of what's going on. > >However, that some public water suppliers will > >add more chloramine in the Winter months can > >have something to do with this problem, although > >not all water companies necessarily use all that > >much more of this additive during these months. > > May I quote from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent > (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and > chloramine in aquatic environments and method of > making the same) > " EXAMPLE II > > Effect on Oxygen (O2) Level > > Two water tanks were set up. One contained > established fresh water (water previously > supporting a variety of aquatic life) and the > other contained newly established fresh water > comprising 50% de-ionized water and 50% tap > water. The dissolved oxygen content level of the > water was recorded using a digital YSI oxygen > meter which indicate: a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in > the established tank and 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly > established tank. The contaminant detoxifying > solution as prepared in Example I was added to > each of the tanks in an amount equivalent to 1 > teaspoon (about 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. > After addition of the solution to the tanks, a > second oxygen level reading was taken, which > indicated a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the > established tank and a level of 6.8 ppm O2 in the > newly established tank. These results indicate > that the contaminant detoxifying solution has no > effect on the oxygen level of an aquatic system > which is critical to sustaining aquatic life. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > And as well: > The theory by which the amine-based ammonia > detoxifying solution acts to detoxify ammonia in > the aquatic system is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN. > Regardless of the theory or mechanism of action > or reaction, however, the present invention > produces surprising and unexpected results; > namely, the composition and method of using the > composition of the present invention effectively > and continuously detoxifies ammonia in . . ." > > > > > > > > > > >Regardless of any possible additional quantities > >of chloramine being added to the water, most of > >us are (or should be) aware that the colder that > >the water is, the greater concentrations of any > >gases that it will hold. On top of that, the > >higher the pressure that the water is under when > >it's being pumped through the water system, > >again, the water has an even greater potential > >for holding even more gases. During the Winter, > >even if similar quantities of chloramine are > >added to the water now as compared to the > >Summer, the water itself, under pressure and > >much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. > > > >That you added more dechloramine was the correct > >move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move > >that you left out, to address the consequences > >of the additional product -- which you just > >coincidentally finally did do when your fish > >were gasping at the surface. > > > >The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as > >these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into > >ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also > >use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. > >So much so, that when there is substantially > >more chloramine in the water, and you rightly > >add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these > >products can deplete the oxygen content of the > >water below that which fish need to live on. > > > >When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular > >AmQuel was discontinued, there were many > >complaints that hobbyists were experiencing > >die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- > >just that this product (and especially THIS > >product, rather than Prime) was killing their > >fish. As Prime does act in a similar way > >though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as > >opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they > >are two somewhat different products), it too can > >deplete the water of oxygen but not as > >seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it > >too works similarly. > > > >When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at > >all times to increase the aeration before > >treating new water being added to the tank > >during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium > >conversion process without depleting the water's > >oxygen content to a level below that which the > >fish need. This especially goes when treating > >colder water in Winter that will naturally hold > >more chloramine, but is best to do at any time > >as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, > >you shouldn't have this problem happen to you > >again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up > >the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > >> > >> Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > >> changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > >> have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > >> I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > >> > >> I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > >> much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > >> > >> I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > >> gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > >> python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > >> before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > >> needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > >> heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > >> the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > >> like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > >> tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > >> about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > >> airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > >> this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > >> Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > >> squirt per 2 gallons). > >> > >> When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > >> I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > >> gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > >> didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > >> and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > >> gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > >> > >> The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > >> were getting high enough to need a water change. > >> > >> Amber > >> > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all > >TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if > >CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > >MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject > >(was re: old subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, > >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your > >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > >Membership" on the home page. > > > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to > >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 > >posts at a time in a single email > > > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for > >the No E-Mail option where you will still be > >able to read messages on the group and post > >replies. > > > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to > >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- > Cartridges! Cartridges! > Cartridges > Charles & Sue Harrison > http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com > Toll free 1-866-677-1900 > > Call, click or come in for your ink cartridge needs. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50178	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Ray

I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50179	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

I match the temperature of the tap water with the tank water, and the pH of the tap water is the same as the tank water, so those aren't changing with the water changes. The only thing that is changing is the amount of nitrates in the tank (removing them with fresh water). I'm going to try doing smaller water changes and see if the fish react badly to smaller water changes. The only thing that makes sense is the fish are somehow getting poisoned from the chloramines in the water. Amber On 1/24/2011 1:02 PM, haecklers wrote: > > If your tap water is very cold it could have dissolved gasses in it > that gave the fish "the bends" - same thing as deep-sea divers get, or > so I've read. See this: > http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-water/90261-bubbles-during-water-change.html > > There is also something where when you change the water temperature it > changes the tank parameters pretty quickly - I forgot if it makes the > nitrates skyrocket or drastically changes the pH, or maybe both. > > So like Charles said, test the water before and after and you may > figure out what's going on (not that you'll want to repeat this > experience!). Also test several hours after adding the new water, it > may change over the course of hours. > > I've seen other people say that after a water change their pH went > down to 6, then slowly creeped back up again. I think someone said > that was from dissolved gasses coming out. > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Charles Harrison <charles@...> > wrote: > > > > Our water department adds more Chloramine to the > > water in the winter than summer since it doesn't > > kill off the bad bugs as well. Cold slows the > > process so they add more to get the job done. Do > > you use a Chlorine test kit? I never leave > > something as serious as Chlorine to chance. Too > > much water conditioner only wastes money, it > > won't kill fish. Sounds like the Chlorine got to > > the fishes gills and did some damage and they > > went to the surface because they couldn't breath > > with damaged gills. > > > > If they get a real good breath of Chlorinated > > water, they may have so much gill damage your > > addition of De-chlorinator doesn't do any good. > > It clears the water but the damage is already > > done. In a large tank like that 125, your > > addition of chemicals is diluted so much that it > > doesn't get to do the work it needs to do. > > > > Most important is to test the water before you > > walk away thinking your task is done. > > > > I change water in my tanks like you do often. > > Never not do a test for the stuff. > > > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > > > Charles H > > > > > > > > >I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > > >gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I > use a > > >python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > > >before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > > >needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > > >heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > > >the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > > >like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > > >tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > > >about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > > >airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > > >this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > > >Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > > >squirt per 2 gallons). > > > > > >When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, > even if > > >I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > > >gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > > >didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > > >and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > > >gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > > > > >The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my > nitrates > > >were getting high enough to need a water change. > > > > > >Amber > > > > > >------------------------------------ > > > > > > -- > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > Charles Harrison in St Louis > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50180	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Amber, The two squirt thing has me a bit concerned. Is that what they say on the product? If so, how can one be sure that your squirt is the volume their squirt is? Maybe 2 squirts are fine for up to a certain size tank--less than your 125. Perhaps, as someone previously suggested the amount of chlorine has been increased and while the 2 squirts were fine for the lower amount of chlorine, and still is enough for the smaller tanks, it no longer is effective against the amount of chlorine now found in your 125 gallon tank PWC. Just a few things to consider. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:35 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Something wrong with my method of changing water Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one squirt per 2 gallons). When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates were getting high enough to need a water change. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50181	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

You could try calling your water dept. I've read accounts of equipment failures that result in much higher loads than normal of whatever chemical additive being put into the water. In the anti-fluoride activist circles you hear stories of doses of fluoride 20-50 times the regular PPM being put into the water as a result of an equipment failure. Usually they catch it quickly and by the next day the water is fine again. Here is a list of some spills, some of which affected drinking water. Mike at Action PA is fighting water fluoridation so he's been monitoring fluoride events, there are probably a lot of other kinds of spills that don't get monitored as closely. I find this site an interesting read. http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/chemicals/accidents.html --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50182	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam!   Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose.  I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus.  First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate.  They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same.  Since you have already stated that “SHE”, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly?   These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change.  This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING.  They simply don’t like it.  And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens?  Stress!  And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress?  Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything.   It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)!  That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change.   As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How?  Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there.  Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected.  Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct?  You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you?   Good hearing from you,   Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50183	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails

While flake food is decent, to really get the fish producing, and to grow up healthy robust fry, you'll need to feed live foods to the fish. There are many live foods available that you can raise yourself once you have a starter culture. There is a good, fairly recent book out on just this topic, "Culturing Live Foods: A Step-by-Step Guide for Culturing One's Own Food for the Home Aquarium" by Michael R. Hellweg. I believe it lists for about $40, but you should be able to find it for less online, try amazon.com. Do note that it is rare to find killies in a LFS. You'll need to make a choice from aquabid.com, join a local killie club if one happens to be within your range of travel, or join the AKA. Do note, however, I have never had a LFS turn me down when I had killies to sell back when I was doing killies. Also note, if you have big box stores selling fish, more than likely they will not purchase fish from a local breeder. Their buying process is centralized. This is why you need to raise something other than a run of the mill type fish, so you have something of worth to offer to others online, as well as at your LFS of the mom & pop kind. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ninja_penguin_117 Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:26 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Getting Swordtails I have three years for this project and plenty of tanks. All I really need is the fish and their food. So I decided to just start at my local pet store, find a good species, and go from there. So what kinds of food would be a good general starting point if I were to get killifish or swordtails? And if I don't have a heater, will it be harder or even impossible to get the killifish/swordtails to breed if the water is only room temperature? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What is your time line? Like, how long do you have to complete this project? Some fish are hard to get money for, you pretty much have to give them away. Others are more desirable and you can actually sell them. The one that is most likely to make you money would be raising red cherry shrimp, because fish stores have a hard time getting them to survive the shipping. They take 30 days to "hatch" their babies (come off the mother's tails as miniatures of the full-grown shrimp). You'd want to save the first batch as a starter breeding colony so after around 60 days you may be able to start selling them. > > Trapdoor snails, Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS), Ramshorn snails are all easy to breed and are often sold for $1 - $2 in pet stores. They can be hard to find. Trapdoor snails are good for making infusoria for fry food, MTS keep gravel clean and eat algae off the tank walls, and Ramshorn snails are just big and cool :) > > Marmokrebs, or self-cloning crayfish are also selling for $15 each. We got some and they took about 2 months to have their first babies (again, tiny versions of the mother come off of her tail). In warm water they grow faster. Tiny crayfish are adorable and really easy to sell. I accidentally siphoned a bunch when I was cleaning the gravel (didn't realize they were there yet) and so I only wound up with 5 the first batch. > > Another thing you could grow for profit would be aquatic plants - vallisneria will take over a tank in a few months if it likes the conditions. Apongetons and Java fern can make many babies off the original parent. Some kinds of crypts and sword plants spread by root runners and you can get baby plants popping up all over the place. Anubis or Christmas moss tied to wood or stone until the roots take hold is selling for $15 a piece, too. Use fishing twine, not cotton string! > > Marmokrebs eat plants and snails, but you could have a tank of plants, red cherry shrimp, and snails for 3 profit-making enterprises at once. Placing an ad on Freecycle or Craigslist asking for starts may be a cheap way to go - hobbyist often have plenty to share even when fish stores can't keep them in stock. > > With a lot of kinds of fish, you spend more than you ever earn. That's why it's more of a hobby with people hoping to recoup some of their expenses more than a profit-making enterprise. If you factor in equipment - tank, filter, heater, nets; food, cost of electricity, medications (if you need them), it easily far out weighs the amount you earn. And most pet stores don't want them until they're at least half-grown which often means you need additional tanks to use for growing them out. If you keep them crowded they don't grow very fast and can get permanently stunted.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50184	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

The bottle directions say, 1 squirt per 2 gallons of water. Amber On 1/24/2011 5:06 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Amber, > > The two squirt thing has me a bit concerned. Is that what they say on the > product? If so, how can one be sure that your squirt is the volume their > squirt is? Maybe 2 squirts are fine for up to a certain size > tank--less than > your 125. Perhaps, as someone previously suggested the amount of chlorine > has been increased and while the 2 squirts were fine for the lower > amount of > chlorine, and still is enough for the smaller tanks, it no longer is > effective against the amount of chlorine now found in your 125 gallon tank > PWC. Just a few things to consider. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:35 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Something wrong with my method of changing water > > Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > squirt per 2 gallons). > > When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > were getting high enough to need a water change. > > Amber > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50185	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose. I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus. First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate. They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same. Since you have already stated that “SHE”, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change. This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING. They simply don’t like it. And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens? Stress! And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress? Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)! That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How? Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there. Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected. Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct? You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50186	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Again Pam,   Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs?  Irritation or redness around the gill areas?  Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? You mentioned the neighbor.  Did they change the same percent or amount of water as you did?  In other words the same concentration per gallon.  i.e.  changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank?   All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough.  For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day!  At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry.  I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it.  The money is not easy either as they always command a good price.  If you got them from Hans, you got good fish.  I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint.   I am still thinking your water.  Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too?  That's too much of a coincidence!  Checking around though, has anyone had problems?  Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common.  Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think?   Bill     --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray   Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose.  I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus.  First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate.  They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same.  Since you have already stated that โ€�SHEโ€�, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change.  This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING.  They simply donโ€�t like it.  And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens?  Stress!  And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress?  Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)!  That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How?  Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there.  Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected.  Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct?  You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50187	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam, Unless I'm completely missing something, I don't see that slight skin lose around the eye as being a mortal injury. It's certainly not an injury that would cause death as suddenly as that same evening. Since both you and your neighbor did water changes that day, and since both of you lost Discus, I would put a very strong possible connection here with either the water or your (both of you) methods in treating it at this particular time. For starters, it's always helpful for you to test your parameters -- and give the results to us (in numbers), if you cannot discern their full meaning in regards to what's going on in your tank. If all looks good there though, I would review exactly what you did in changing the water. It could have just been something similar as to what recently happened to Amber when she didn't increase her aeration before adding the dechloraminator. Although I don't know exactly where you live, if you're like many of the rest of us, you may be having near-record temperature lows which is decreasing the temperature of your reservoir's water ever-closer to 32 o before entering the treatment plant, where it is being saturated with chloramine -- since cold water will absorb much greater quantities of any gases it comes in contact with. You haven't gone into any detail with your PWCing, but perhaps you (and your neighbor) didn't add enough dechloraminator, or perhaps you added enough but did not increase the aeration to take care of needs of the additional chloramine being broken down and converted -- which I described earlier. Then again, you haven't even stated what kind of water conditioner you used. I can't comment on why it didn't affect the Pleco but some fish are just heartier than others and have a different threshold to toxins and/or minimum oxygen contents of their water. If you could supply any of the missing info I outlined above, it could be of some help. In the meantime, it would pay to do a baseline check on the parameters of your tap water, starting by testing it for Total Ammonia content and the pH of it. To get a better handle on what may have gone on, we'd need the results for all of this tank's parameters, including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and temperature. While you may not be able to locate such a kit at this time of the year, if you could get a swimming pool chlorine test kit, this would also be useful with testing your tap water. I would draw off at least a gallon and test it, then add the proper amount of water conditioner to this sample and allow the chlorine to be broken away from the ammonia and test it again immediately to get your free chlorine reading. This in itself may have been too high for the Discus to tolerate, but we'd also need to know how large of a PWC you made. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50188	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Both eyes were clear. In fact, I still have the fish in my frig as I have not taken out my garbage and did not want her stinking it up. Her gills are good too. She had a white spot above the eye. After treating, the white spot went away. I thought she was fine until I looked closer and saw the missing skin. I did about a 20 % water change, I do not know how much water my neighbor changed. I didn't get ahold of the water dept. today, but will try to tomorrow. They do not let anyone know if there is a water line break. This is a very small farm town. One of those if you blink, you missed it. We do not even have a stop light in town. Stop signs, but no lights. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:57:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray Hi Again Pam, Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs? Irritation or redness around the gill areas? Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? You mentioned the neighbor. Did they change the same percent or amount of water as you did? In other words the same concentration per gallon. i.e. changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank? All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough. For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day! At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry. I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it. The money is not easy either as they always command a good price. If you got them from Hans, you got good fish. I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint. I am still thinking your water. Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too? That's too much of a coincidence! Checking around though, has anyone had problems? Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common. Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think? Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose. I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus. First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate. They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same. Since you have already stated that โ€�SHEโ€�, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change. This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING. They simply donโ€�t like it. And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens? Stress! And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress? Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)! That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How? Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there. Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected. Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct? You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50189	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

For chloramine removal, I'd trust the product from Hikari. It is formulated by the person who invented the original Amquel that Kordon sold. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:20 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water Is it possible that Hagen's method (and patent) of dechloramination is somewhat different yet than either those of Kordon (AmQuel+) or SeaChem (Prime); this may explain the apparent enigma. Ray -- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > >Hi Amber, > > > >There is still a lot to know about these > >dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to > >know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may > >have a background in chemistry and by his very > >informative reply, it appears even he has not > >grasped the concept of what's going on. > >However, that some public water suppliers will > >add more chloramine in the Winter months can > >have something to do with this problem, although > >not all water companies necessarily use all that > >much more of this additive during these months. > > May I quote from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent > (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and > chloramine in aquatic environments and method of > making the same) > " EXAMPLE II > > Effect on Oxygen (O2) Level > > Two water tanks were set up. One contained > established fresh water (water previously > supporting a variety of aquatic life) and the > other contained newly established fresh water > comprising 50% de-ionized water and 50% tap > water. The dissolved oxygen content level of the > water was recorded using a digital YSI oxygen > meter which indicate: a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in > the established tank and 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly > established tank. The contaminant detoxifying > solution as prepared in Example I was added to > each of the tanks in an amount equivalent to 1 > teaspoon (about 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. > After addition of the solution to the tanks, a > second oxygen level reading was taken, which > indicated a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the > established tank and a level of 6.8 ppm O2 in the > newly established tank. These results indicate > that the contaminant detoxifying solution has no > effect on the oxygen level of an aquatic system > which is critical to sustaining aquatic life. > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > And as well: > The theory by which the amine-based ammonia > detoxifying solution acts to detoxify ammonia in > the aquatic system is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN. > Regardless of the theory or mechanism of action > or reaction, however, the present invention > produces surprising and unexpected results; > namely, the composition and method of using the > composition of the present invention effectively > and continuously detoxifies ammonia in . . ." > > > > > > > > > > >Regardless of any possible additional quantities > >of chloramine being added to the water, most of > >us are (or should be) aware that the colder that > >the water is, the greater concentrations of any > >gases that it will hold. On top of that, the > >higher the pressure that the water is under when > >it's being pumped through the water system, > >again, the water has an even greater potential > >for holding even more gases. During the Winter, > >even if similar quantities of chloramine are > >added to the water now as compared to the > >Summer, the water itself, under pressure and > >much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. > > > >That you added more dechloramine was the correct > >move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move > >that you left out, to address the consequences > >of the additional product -- which you just > >coincidentally finally did do when your fish > >were gasping at the surface. > > > >The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as > >these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into > >ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also > >use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. > >So much so, that when there is substantially > >more chloramine in the water, and you rightly > >add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these > >products can deplete the oxygen content of the > >water below that which fish need to live on. > > > >When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular > >AmQuel was discontinued, there were many > >complaints that hobbyists were experiencing > >die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- > >just that this product (and especially THIS > >product, rather than Prime) was killing their > >fish. As Prime does act in a similar way > >though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as > >opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they > >are two somewhat different products), it too can > >deplete the water of oxygen but not as > >seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it > >too works similarly. > > > >When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at > >all times to increase the aeration before > >treating new water being added to the tank > >during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium > >conversion process without depleting the water's > >oxygen content to a level below that which the > >fish need. This especially goes when treating > >colder water in Winter that will naturally hold > >more chloramine, but is best to do at any time > >as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, > >you shouldn't have this problem happen to you > >again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up > >the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > >> > >> Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > >> changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > >> have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > >> I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > >> > >> I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > >> much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > >> > >> I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > >> gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > >> python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > >> before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > >> needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > >> heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > >> the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > >> like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > >> tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > >> about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > >> airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > >> this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > >> Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > >> squirt per 2 gallons). > >> > >> When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > >> I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > >> gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > >> didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > >> and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > >> gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > >> > >> The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > >> were getting high enough to need a water change. > >> > >> Amber > >>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50190	From: pam andress	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Ray, I will try to get all that info for you tomorrow. I have a water tester, so that is not a problem. I am also going to try to get ahold of the water dept. and see if they can shed any light on the subject. In my tank, there was just the discus and 1 pleco, in Gary's tank, there were discus, angels, and plecos. He lost 3 discus and nothing else. Pam Hi Pam, Unless I'm completely missing something, I don't see that slight skin lose around the eye as being a mortal injury. It's certainly not an injury that would cause death as suddenly as that same evening. Since both you and your neighbor did water changes that day, and since both of you lost Discus, I would put a very strong possible connection here with either the water or your (both of you) methods in treating it at this particular time. For starters, it's always helpful for you to test your parameters -- and give the results to us (in numbers), if you cannot discern their full meaning in regards to what's going on in your tank. If all looks good there though, I would review exactly what you did in changing the water. It could have just been something similar as to what recently happened to Amber when she didn't increase her aeration before adding the dechloraminator. Although I don't know exactly where you live, if you're like many of the rest of us, you may be having near-record temperature lows which is decreasing the temperature of your reservoir's water ever-closer to 32 o before entering the treatment plant, where it is being saturated with chloramine -- since cold water will absorb much greater quantities of any gases it comes in contact with. You haven't gone into any detail with your PWCing, but perhaps you (and your neighbor) didn't add enough dechloraminator, or perhaps you added enough but did not increase the aeration to take care of needs of the additional chloramine being broken down and converted -- which I described earlier. Then again, you haven't even stated what kind of water conditioner you used. I can't comment on why it didn't affect the Pleco but some fish are just heartier than others and have a different threshold to toxins and/or minimum oxygen contents of their water. If you could supply any of the missing info I outlined above, it could be of some help. In the meantime, it would pay to do a baseline check on the parameters of your tap water, starting by testing it for Total Ammonia content and the pH of it. To get a better handle on what may have gone on, we'd need the results for all of this tank's parameters, including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and temperature. While you may not be able to locate such a kit at this time of the year, if you could get a swimming pool chlorine test kit, this would also be useful with testing your tap water. I would draw off at least a gallon and test it, then add the proper amount of water conditioner to this sample and allow the chlorine to be broken away from the ammonia and test it again immediately to get your free chlorine reading. This in itself may have been too high for the Discus to tolerate, but we'd also need to know how large of a PWC you made. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50191	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Amber, Is the volume of a squirt defined? Come to think of it, is it anything like a sea squirt? </humor> \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 9:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Something wrong with my method of changing water The bottle directions say, 1 squirt per 2 gallons of water. Amber On 1/24/2011 5:06 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Amber, > > The two squirt thing has me a bit concerned. Is that what they say on the > product? If so, how can one be sure that your squirt is the volume their > squirt is? Maybe 2 squirts are fine for up to a certain size > tank--less than > your 125. Perhaps, as someone previously suggested the amount of chlorine > has been increased and while the 2 squirts were fine for the lower > amount of > chlorine, and still is enough for the smaller tanks, it no longer is > effective against the amount of chlorine now found in your 125 gallon tank > PWC. Just a few things to consider. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 2:35 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Something wrong with my method of changing water > > Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > squirt per 2 gallons). > > When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > were getting high enough to need a water change. > > Amber > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50192	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

\\Steve//, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to tell me. I realize that Kordon (Novalek, Inc.) is associated with AmQuel+, as I believe you're telling me, and is what I wrote about. As for its being said that it would not work properly, I'm not sure if you remember when it first came out, that there were so very many complaints that it was killing the aquarists' fishes. It seems now, that the hobbyists have learned how to better use it, and some I know have mastered its use, but it is not my choice of water conditioners. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > A little behind the scenes here. Amquel was not of Kordon's making. Amquel+ > was. What I had heard is that JFK, who developed Amquel, Novaqua, Polyaqua > and a few other things sold by Kordon did not want anything to do with > Amquel+ because he said it would not work properly. > > Take it for what it is worth. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 6:26 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water > > Hi Amber, > > There is still a lot to know about these dechlorinators that many hobbyists > have yet to know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may have a background > in chemistry and by his very informative reply, it appears even he has not > grasped the concept of what's going on. However, that some public water > suppliers will add more chloramine in the Winter months can have something > to do with this problem, although not all water companies necessarily use > all that much more of this additive during these months. > > Regardless of any possible additional quantities of chloramine being added > to the water, most of us are (or should be) aware that the colder that the > water is, the greater concentrations of any gases that it will hold. On top > of that, the higher the pressure that the water is under when it's being > pumped through the water system, again, the water has an even greater > potential for holding even more gases. During the Winter, even if similar > quantities of chloramine are added to the water now as compared to the > Summer, the water itself, under pressure and much colder, is going to absorb > more chloramine. > > That you added more dechloramine was the correct move -- BUT in doing so, > there was a major move that you left out, to address the consequences of the > additional product -- which you just coincidentally finally did do when your > fish were gasping at the surface. > > The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as these dechlorinators > convert the ammonia into ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also use > a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. So much so, that when there is > substantially more chloramine in the water, and you rightly add more > dechloramine to neutralize it, these products can deplete the oxygen content > of the water below that which fish need to live on. > > When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular AmQuel was discontinued, > there were many complaints that hobbyists were experiencing die-offs of > their fish -- and not knowing why -- just that this product (and especially > THIS product, rather than Prime) was killing their fish. As Prime does act > in a similar way though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as opposed to > AmQuel + remaining in the water (they are two somewhat different products), > it too can deplete the water of oxygen but not as seriously. I note you use > Stress-Coat, but it too works similarly. > > When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at all times to increase the > aeration before treating new water being added to the tank during PWC's, to > aid in the ammonia-ammonium conversion process without depleting the water's > oxygen content to a level below that which the fish need. This especially > goes when treating colder water in Winter that will naturally hold more > chloramine, but is best to do at any time as a protective measure. Keeping > this in mind, you shouldn't have this problem happen to you again in the 125 > if you just remember to turn up the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > > changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > > have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish died). > > I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > > > I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > > much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > > > I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > > gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use a > > python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > > before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > > needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > > heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > > the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > > like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > > tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > > about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > > airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > > this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > > Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > > squirt per 2 gallons). > > > > When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even if > > I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > > gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > > didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite active > > and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > > gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > > > The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my nitrates > > were getting high enough to need a water change. > > > > Amber > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50193	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

\\Steve//, You're undoubtedly thinking of Hikari's Ultimate ClorAm-X -- which uses the original formula for AmQuel (note, PLAIN AmQuel -- no +). This, in my estimate, was always far superior than AmQuel+ in its ease of use and safety. I do also like Prime though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > For chloramine removal, I'd trust the product from Hikari. It is formulated > by the person who invented the original Amquel that Kordon sold. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 8:20 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water > > > > Is it possible that Hagen's method (and patent) of dechloramination is > somewhat different yet than either those of Kordon (AmQuel+) or SeaChem > (Prime); this may explain the apparent enigma. Ray > > > > -- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > >Hi Amber, > > > > > >There is still a lot to know about these > > >dechlorinators that many hobbyists have yet to > > >know. I believe Dr. Harrison (Charles H.) may > > >have a background in chemistry and by his very > > >informative reply, it appears even he has not > > >grasped the concept of what's going on. > > >However, that some public water suppliers will > > >add more chloramine in the Winter months can > > >have something to do with this problem, although > > >not all water companies necessarily use all that > > >much more of this additive during these months. > > > > May I quote from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent > > (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and > > chloramine in aquatic environments and method of > > making the same) > > " EXAMPLE II > > > > Effect on Oxygen (O2) Level > > > > Two water tanks were set up. One contained > > established fresh water (water previously > > supporting a variety of aquatic life) and the > > other contained newly established fresh water > > comprising 50% de-ionized water and 50% tap > > water. The dissolved oxygen content level of the > > water was recorded using a digital YSI oxygen > > meter which indicate: a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in > > the established tank and 6.8 ppm O2 in the newly > > established tank. The contaminant detoxifying > > solution as prepared in Example I was added to > > each of the tanks in an amount equivalent to 1 > > teaspoon (about 5 ml) per 10 gallons of water. > > After addition of the solution to the tanks, a > > second oxygen level reading was taken, which > > indicated a level of 6.5 ppm O2 in the > > established tank and a level of 6.8 ppm O2 in the > > newly established tank. These results indicate > > that the contaminant detoxifying solution has no > > effect on the oxygen level of an aquatic system > > which is critical to sustaining aquatic life. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > And as well: > > The theory by which the amine-based ammonia > > detoxifying solution acts to detoxify ammonia in > > the aquatic system is CURRENTLY UNKNOWN. > > Regardless of the theory or mechanism of action > > or reaction, however, the present invention > > produces surprising and unexpected results; > > namely, the composition and method of using the > > composition of the present invention effectively > > and continuously detoxifies ammonia in . . ." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Regardless of any possible additional quantities > > >of chloramine being added to the water, most of > > >us are (or should be) aware that the colder that > > >the water is, the greater concentrations of any > > >gases that it will hold. On top of that, the > > >higher the pressure that the water is under when > > >it's being pumped through the water system, > > >again, the water has an even greater potential > > >for holding even more gases. During the Winter, > > >even if similar quantities of chloramine are > > >added to the water now as compared to the > > >Summer, the water itself, under pressure and > > >much colder, is going to absorb more chloramine. > > > > > >That you added more dechloramine was the correct > > >move -- BUT in doing so, there was a major move > > >that you left out, to address the consequences > > >of the additional product -- which you just > > >coincidentally finally did do when your fish > > >were gasping at the surface. > > > > > >The little known (or unrealized) fact is that as > > >these dechlorinators convert the ammonia into > > >ammonium -- as most of us do know -- they also > > >use a lot of oxygen in this conversion process. > > >So much so, that when there is substantially > > >more chloramine in the water, and you rightly > > >add more dechloramine to neutralize it, these > > >products can deplete the oxygen content of the > > >water below that which fish need to live on. > > > > > >When AmQuel + first came out, after the regular > > >AmQuel was discontinued, there were many > > >complaints that hobbyists were experiencing > > >die-offs of their fish -- and not knowing why -- > > >just that this product (and especially THIS > > >product, rather than Prime) was killing their > > >fish. As Prime does act in a similar way > > >though, although it dissipates after 24 hours as > > >opposed to AmQuel + remaining in the water (they > > >are two somewhat different products), it too can > > >deplete the water of oxygen but not as > > >seriously. I note you use Stress-Coat, but it > > >too works similarly. > > > > > >When using a dechlorinator, it's adviseable at > > >all times to increase the aeration before > > >treating new water being added to the tank > > >during PWC's, to aid in the ammonia-ammonium > > >conversion process without depleting the water's > > >oxygen content to a level below that which the > > >fish need. This especially goes when treating > > >colder water in Winter that will naturally hold > > >more chloramine, but is best to do at any time > > >as a protective measure. Keeping this in mind, > > >you shouldn't have this problem happen to you > > >again in the 125 if you just remember to turn up > > >the airstone -- high -- in the beginning. > > > > > >Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Okay so this is the second time within the last few months that I've > > >> changed water and killed fish (it wasn't so drastic this time, but I > > >> have quite a few air breathers and I didn't the last time my fish > died). > > >> I lost 2 danios and 2 platty's. > > >> > > >> I'm thinking that I'm either not adding enough dechlor or adding too > > >> much, which is most likely to kill fish overnight? > > >> > > >> I did the water change in the middle of the day, I removed around 35 > > >> gallons of water from my 125 gallon tank, perhaps a little more. I use > a > > >> python hose to remove/add water. I add the dechlor to my tank water > > >> before adding the new water. I think I added more dechlor than was > > >> needed, but this morning I had 4 dead fish (perhaps more). It's a > > >> heavily planted tank, and I removed a good portion of guppy grass from > > >> the tank before my water change. The fish were gasping at the surface, > > >> like the oxygen content had gotten very low. I have an airstone in the > > >> tank, as well as 2 power filters and several powerheads. When I added > > >> about 5 more squirts of dechlor and turned up the bubbles on the > > >> airstone this morning the fish stopped hovering at the surface, could > > >> this tank require more dechlor than what I use on my other tanks? > > >> Normally I follow the directions on the bottle of stress coat (one > > >> squirt per 2 gallons). > > >> > > >> When I do water changes on my other tanks I don't kill any fish, even > if > > >> I do a larger water change. I did a more drastic water change on my 55 > > >> gallon with all my mystery snails, guppies, and pleco babies, and I > > >> didn't lose ANY fish in that tank, and all the fish appear quite > active > > >> and healthy. I'm trying to narrow down what I'm doing wrong on my 125 > > >> gallon tank, that I'm not doing on the other tanks. > > >> > > >> The tank parameters were normal, no ammonia or nitrites, and my > nitrates > > >> were getting high enough to need a water change. > > >> > > >> Amber > > >> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50194	From: Ray	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Pam, I would not be surprised if the water company added more than the normal doseage of chloramine. Even if they didn't colder water will absorb and hold larger quantities of the chloramine that's being exposed to it. It may just be the colder water's affinity for being able to dissolve more chloramine within it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > Ray, > > I will try to get all that info for you tomorrow. I have a water tester, so that is not a problem. I am also going to try to get ahold of the water dept. and see if they can shed any light on the subject. > > In my tank, there was just the discus and 1 pleco, in Gary's tank, there were discus, angels, and plecos. He lost 3 discus and nothing else. > > > Pam > > > > > Hi Pam, > Unless I'm completely missing something, I don't see that slight skin lose around the eye as being a mortal injury. It's certainly not an injury that would cause death as suddenly as that same evening. Since both you and your neighbor did water changes that day, and since both of you lost Discus, I would put a very strong possible connection here with either the water or your (both of you) methods in treating it at this particular time. > > For starters, it's always helpful for you to test your parameters -- and give the results to us (in numbers), if you cannot discern their full meaning in regards to what's going on in your tank. If all looks good there though, I would review exactly what you did in changing the water. It could have just been something similar as to what recently happened to Amber when she didn't increase her aeration before adding the dechloraminator. Although I don't know exactly where you live, if you're like many of the rest of us, you may be having near-record temperature lows which is decreasing the temperature of your reservoir's water ever-closer to 32 o before entering the treatment plant, where it is being saturated with chloramine -- since cold water will absorb much greater quantities of any gases it comes in contact with. > > You haven't gone into any detail with your PWCing, but perhaps you (and your neighbor) didn't add enough dechloraminator, or perhaps you added enough but did not increase the aeration to take care of needs of the additional chloramine being broken down and converted -- which I described earlier. Then again, you haven't even stated what kind of water conditioner you used. I can't comment on why it didn't affect the Pleco but some fish are just heartier than others and have a different threshold to toxins and/or minimum oxygen contents of their water. > > If you could supply any of the missing info I outlined above, it could be of some help. In the meantime, it would pay to do a baseline check on the parameters of your tap water, starting by testing it for Total Ammonia content and the pH of it. > > To get a better handle on what may have gone on, we'd need the results for all of this tank's parameters, including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and temperature. While you may not be able to locate such a kit at this time of the year, if you could get a swimming pool chlorine test kit, this would also be useful with testing your tap water. I would draw off at least a gallon and test it, then add the proper amount of water conditioner to this sample and allow the chlorine to be broken away from the ammonia and test it again immediately to get your free chlorine reading. This in itself may have been too high for the Discus to tolerate, but we'd also need to know how large of a PWC you made. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > > > BUT > > > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > > > Pam > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50195	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Tap Water additives

I thought some may find this of interest. I noticed for a lot of the additives they say they don't need to be monitored, some because they don't have a good method of monitoring them. The use of the different chemicals would go up and down, depending on the judgement of the people running the facility and their water quality tests - is the water cloudy, are the bacteria counts too high? Etc. The document says amounts of iron, copper, and lead can also go up or down depending on the time of day and how long water has been sitting in the pipes. They are also affected by changes in the water pH or bacteria levels, which can be affected by how much chlorine is added. http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/dwq/cmp130704chap8.pdf I know this is not an exhaustive list, my water department told me they add 100 ppm of calcium bicarbonate to reduce the acidity and prevent corrosion, but that additive is not on the list. It explains why our water went from acid to alkaline in a year!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50196	From: haecklers	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Getting Swordtails/live foods

I've done microworms, Grindal worms, vinegar eels, red wigglers, infusoria, and mosquito larvae/bloodworms. The mosquitoes/bloodworms are the easiest to grow in the summer months. Here is a great link for how to do it, better than my method! http://www.petfish.net/skeet.htm If you let gunk accumulate on the bottom you'll also grow the bloodworms. They are nocturnal so best to catch them in the mornings or evenings. During the day they cover themselves with brown goo and stick to the bottom and sides of the container. Mosquitoes and live bloodworms are miracle foods that condition fish amazingly and can turn a dull, listless fish into an alert fat dynamo in a very short period of time. Microworms are expensive to get the starter of, but then pretty cheap and easy to grow out. We use those plastic Chinese soup take-out containers. The 2-cup one is ideal. I tried giving my culture some fish food with their cereal as food to see if it led to nutritional improvements - I didn't notice any but the culture got stinky faster. To harvest them you wipe them off the sides of the container - they like to crawl up it and cover the "walls". If you don't harvest frequently you'll find them escaping from (or clogging up) the air holes in the top. It only takes a few days for a new culture to start producing. Grindal worms are great food for the juvenile and larger fish but are harder to keep a culture going and to harvest - they live in "soil" (can be coconut coir, etc.) and tend to hide in it most of the time. It takes a month or longer for a starter culture to get big enough to harvest them and they can go foul very quickly if over-fed. Then the worms will try to flee and you'll be glad you have a tight-fitting lid! Vinegar eels are easy to keep, they live in a vinegar/water solution and can last indefinitely. They are great food for the newly hatched fry but are nutritionally incomplete. One hobbyist did a study in which he fed only Vinegar eels and found at 4 weeks the fry stopped growing and around 5 weeks started dying off. They grow pretty quickly so after a few weeks you can start harvesting them. Putting some of the vinegar in a test-tube with floss on top and then a small amount of water above the floss makes harvesting easy - the leave the heavier vinegar to go up toward the air/light so you can get them out with a dropper. I really like the Red Wigglers. They are easy to maintain, easy to feed (any vegetable scraps), and don't smell. The baby worms are about the size of the Grindal worms, good for juvenile fish and adults (as conditioning food). You'd be surprised at the size of worm a small fish can swallow! It takes months for a culture to get big enough to harvest from. I have a theory that the cereal/yeast culture of the microworms (and Walter worms, which are related) contains a lot of probiotics that increase the disease-resistance of the fish. Earth worms have been shown to carry a lot of different types of fungi and bacteria in their bodies, most of it is considered to be beneficial. If you read much farming stuff, there are some interesting studies about the role of worms in spreading the spores of beneficial fungi and bacteria to increase the health of the environment. All of these live foods live 2-5 days in water, sometimes longer, so they don't start rotting and foul the water very quickly. Adding some snails will ensure the live foods that do die are eaten before they rot, and some like the trapdoor snails add infusoria to the water, but be careful other snails (like MTS) will eat fish eggs and the just-hatched fry. Studies show that adding rotifers to the diet of fry increases their survival rate tremendously. They can be found on sponge filters, so when starting a fry tank it's good to have a used sponge filter to put in as a first food source. You can get sponge filters for around $5 on ebay. I like the kind that have two sponges so you can swap out one and have an instantly cycled tank. You need an air pump and some tubing to use them, cheapest I've seen is at Wal-Mart - a decent, quiet pump for around $6. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > While flake food is decent, to really get the fish producing, and to grow up > healthy robust fry, you'll need to feed live foods to the fish. There are > many live foods available that you can raise yourself once you have a > starter culture.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50197	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/24/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

>Is it possible that Hagen's method (and patent) >of dechloramination is somewhat different yet >than either those of Kordon (AmQuel+) or SeaChem >(Prime); this may explain the apparent enigma. >Ray I quoted from Patent 5211872: ( Hagen's Patent : (Composition for detoxifying ammonia and chloramine in aquatic environments and method of making the same) If one Googles the patent numbers off the containers, one finds 2 Patents. This is the patent from Hagen. Other reports are the same. Dilution of the dechlorinator is the big problem especially in a very large volume of water. Mixing doesn't occur quick enough to remove the offender. Another big problem is that in no case in the fish deaths do any of the aquarists mention the results of testing for Chlorine. Nothing! Lots of fresh water but no one reports of the test results from Chlorine testing. I took the Chlorine test method from the EPA and American Society for Testing and Materials, the OTO method and doubled the concentration of the reagent that reacts with active Chlorine and made a test reagent. With this solution, one can detect 0.01 ppm of Chlorine. I have killed more fish with Chlorine than any other cause only because I didn't know how much was left behind after treatment. As a Killifish breeder, I change a lot of water. I keep a lot of SA and Mexican live bearers. I change a lot of water. Another problem aquarists face is the Alkanity of the tap water. When the available water supply is turbid, they often increase the pH with NaOH rather than Sodium Carbonate. This raises the Alkanity higher and takes more CO2 to lower the pH than usual. So the pH stays higher than expected for longer ( I should write an article) with all the air stones and filters flowing. I still attribute the fish deaths to Chloramine (Chlorine poising) from all I have seen. The ones at the treatment plants are at blame. Water main breaks this time of year alarm the water treatment plants. No one wants to issue a "Boil Water Notice" - better to over treat with Chlorine. Amber, I'll send you a test kit if you send me an address for postage. -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50198	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them when there already straight swimming Thanks! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50199	From: Ray	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Gian, I'm hoping you have a viable infusorias culture and not just the beginnings of one, as mainly bacteria. You may want to put a slide of the culture under a low-power lens of a microscope, if you have one. Otherwise, in your culture, you should see what looks like lots of extremely tiny white dust particles (not cloudy water). If your culture is not yet that far advanced, you may need to fall back on the hard-boiled egg yolk food. To use this, you will need to create a very fine infusion of the egg yolk in suspension (in water), by squeezing it through a men's muslin handkerchief. Be very careful not to overfeed, and use sparingly. This is one time that snails can be viewed not as a nuisance but as an actual help in cleaning up the bottom of an excess. Their droppings are also an excellent food source for culturing infusoria -- one of the best ways to start such a culture. Keep that in mind when you want to re-start your supporting second culture in case your original crashes. Their are liquid fry foods ("Liquifry") in a tube -- which are available as being meant for egglayers and another for livebearers -- but while the fry may limitedly feed on it directly, it mainly serves to promote infusoria in the rearing tank. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them when there already straight swimming > > Thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50200	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam,   Also with tomorrow's info, the tank temperature please?  Why I am asking now?  Your comment about Gary's tank, Angles in with Discus? I'm wondering HIS tank temps too??????   Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 11:44 PM Ray, I will try to get all that info for you tomorrow. I have a water tester, so that is not a problem. I am also going to try to get ahold of the water dept. and see if they can shed any light on the subject. In my tank, there was just the discus and 1 pleco, in Gary's tank, there were discus, angels, and plecos. He lost 3 discus and nothing else. Pam   Hi Pam, Unless I'm completely missing something, I don't see that slight skin lose around the eye as being a mortal injury. It's certainly not an injury that would cause death as suddenly as that same evening. Since both you and your neighbor did water changes that day, and since both of you lost Discus, I would put a very strong possible connection here with either the water or your (both of you) methods in treating it at this particular time. For starters, it's always helpful for you to test your parameters -- and give the results to us (in numbers), if you cannot discern their full meaning in regards to what's going on in your tank. If all looks good there though, I would review exactly what you did in changing the water. It could have just been something similar as to what recently happened to Amber when she didn't increase her aeration before adding the dechloraminator. Although I don't know exactly where you live, if you're like many of the rest of us, you may be having near-record temperature lows which is decreasing the temperature of your reservoir's water ever-closer to 32 o before entering the treatment plant, where it is being saturated with chloramine -- since cold water will absorb much greater quantities of any gases it comes in contact with. You haven't gone into any detail with your PWCing, but perhaps you (and your neighbor) didn't add enough dechloraminator, or perhaps you added enough but did not increase the aeration to take care of needs of the additional chloramine being broken down and converted -- which I described earlier. Then again, you haven't even stated what kind of water conditioner you used. I can't comment on why it didn't affect the Pleco but some fish are just heartier than others and have a different threshold to toxins and/or minimum oxygen contents of their water. If you could supply any of the missing info I outlined above, it could be of some help. In the meantime, it would pay to do a baseline check on the parameters of your tap water, starting by testing it for Total Ammonia content and the pH of it. To get a better handle on what may have gone on, we'd need the results for all of this tank's parameters, including ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH and temperature. While you may not be able to locate such a kit at this time of the year, if you could get a swimming pool chlorine test kit, this would also be useful with testing your tap water. I would draw off at least a gallon and test it, then add the proper amount of water conditioner to this sample and allow the chlorine to be broken away from the ammonia and test it again immediately to get your free chlorine reading. This in itself may have been too high for the Discus to tolerate, but we'd also need to know how large of a PWC you made. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50201	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Renamed Temperature

> Bill 1433 wrote: >   > Also with tomorrow's info, the tank temperature please? >   OOooOOooOO! That reminds me... Santa brought me one of those electronic digital "instant" food thermometers (paid a whopping $3 for it on ebay) and one of the things I used it for was to spot-check my tank's temperature to double-check that the tank's "strip" thermometer was reading accurately. They agreed so either they're both off by the same amount or they're accurate. :o) ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50202	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam,   Does this mean your on "Well Water"?  Small town?  We come close, we have the City Limit Signs on one post! <g>   Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 11:36 PM Both eyes were clear. In fact, I still have the fish in my frig as I have not taken out my garbage and did not want her stinking it up. Her gills are good too. She had a white spot above the eye. After treating, the white spot went away. I thought she was fine until I looked closer and saw the missing skin. I did about a 20 % water change, I do not know how much water my neighbor changed. I didn't get ahold of the water dept. today, but will try to tomorrow. They do not let anyone know if there is a water line break. This is a very small farm town. One of those if you blink, you missed it. We do not even have a stop light in town. Stop signs, but no lights. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:57:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray   Hi Again Pam, Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs?  Irritation or redness around the gill areas?  Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? You mentioned the neighbor.  Did they change the same percent or amount of water as you did?  In other words the same concentration per gallon.  i.e.  changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank? All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough.  For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day!  At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry.  I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it.  The money is not easy either as they always command a good price.  If you got them from Hans, you got good fish.  I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint. I am still thinking your water.  Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too?  That's too much of a coincidence!  Checking around though, has anyone had problems?  Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common.  Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think? Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray   Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose.  I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus.  First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate.  They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same.  Since you have already stated that р╣ВтВмя┐╜SHEр╣ВтВмя┐╜, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change.  This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING.  They simply donр╣ВтВмя┐╜t like it.  And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens?  Stress!  And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress?  Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)!  That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How?  Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there.  Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected.  Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct?  You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife р╕вр╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.><((((р╕вр╕Ъ>.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <р╕вр╕Ъ((((><.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. 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Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]                           [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife р╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.><((((р╕Ъ>.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш><((((р╕Ъ> р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..><((((р╕Ъ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <р╕Ъ((((><.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. 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If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50203	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown gunk is a likely source. My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them when there already straight swimming > > Thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50204	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: planted aquariums

Hi all, first I want to say my Ram cichlid died. I dosed him with Maracyn two. I tried pima fix and mela fix, and also I tried quick cure. That pretty much covered bacteria, fungi, and parasites. I started with the quick cure, then I tried the fixes and then the maracyn. Alas, he didn't make it. Maybe I should have started with the antibiotic. It is hard to tell. As he had cottony white patches I may have misdiagnosed his ailment. My female ram has taken up with the other male. Now for a planted tank, can anyone tell me step by step how to set up a planted tank and the plants and products to use? I thought I would take my 2.5 gal tank and try and set up a planted area for a new betta. Also one of these days I would like to set up a 20 gal. I have bad luck with plants. I have a moss ball and a banana root plant that have survived my endeavors. Also someone has said to use a pothos ivy for filtration. How is this done? Thank you all, I read your posts as they pop up on my phone. So I read your posts all day long. I have learned alot! Judy Oklahoma

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50205	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: planted aquariums

I have low tech planted tanks that just require water changes and filter cleanings. As for the plants, all I have to do is trim them every week (or they outgrow my tank and the fish have no where to swim, LOL). It's a very easy setup to take care of and maintain. If you want very colorful plants you'll need to get CO2 injection, but you can keep low light/medium light plants fairly well. Here are instructions of how to set up a Walstad natural planted tank. http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-a-walstad-natural-planted-tank.html For different types of plants and many pictures to help identify the plants at the LFS, try Plantgeek. http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php Amber On 1/25/2011 7:27 AM, judith wrote: > > Hi all, first I want to say my Ram cichlid died. I dosed him with > Maracyn two. I tried pima fix and mela fix, and also I tried quick > cure. That pretty much covered bacteria, fungi, and parasites. I > started with the quick cure, then I tried the fixes and then the > maracyn. Alas, he didn't make it. Maybe I should have started with the > antibiotic. It is hard to tell. As he had cottony white patches I may > have misdiagnosed his ailment. My female ram has taken up with the > other male. > Now for a planted tank, can anyone tell me step by step how to set up > a planted tank and the plants and products to use? I thought I would > take my 2.5 gal tank and try and set up a planted area for a new > betta. Also one of these days I would like to set up a 20 gal. I have > bad luck with plants. I have a moss ball and a banana root plant that > have survived my endeavors. > Also someone has said to use a pothos ivy for filtration. How is this > done? > Thank you all, I read your posts as they pop up on my phone. So I read > your posts all day long. I have learned alot! > > Judy > Oklahoma > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50206	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

I believe the Chloramines, all 3 of them, are liquids and do not degas into the atmosphere like N2, O2, etc. The air and dissolved gasses in cold water come out as the temperature goes up and can cause ultra-fine bubbles in the gills of fishes and cause a lot of stress. So, it doesn't matter about Chloramine - Cold or Hot it is going to be there. It is not a gas and won't come out with simple aeration. It has to be chemically treated to remove it. Charles H > Regardless of any possible additional quantities of chloramine being added > to the water, most of us are (or should be) aware that the colder that the > water is, the greater concentrations of any gases that it will hold. On top > of that, the higher the pressure that the water is under when it's being > pumped through the water system, again, the water has an even greater > potential for holding even more gases. During the Winter, even if similar > quantities of chloramine are added to the water now as compared to the > Summer, the water itself, under pressure and much colder, is going to absorb > more chloramine. -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50207	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Haecklers; Are the fry in the pics all from the same spawn? The colors are so varied. Can you post pics of the parents? ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 6:42:53 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown gunk is a likely source. My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well >for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them >when there already straight swimming > > > Thanks! > > -Gian > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50208	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants from my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. I did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other tanks as well. Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 6:42:53 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown gunk is a likely source. My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well >for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them >when there already straight swimming > > > Thanks! > > -Gian > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50209	From: judith white	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: planted aquariums

Thanks alot!  That's just what I needed!  I think I will get a 5 gal instead of using my 2.5 gal.  I use the 2.5 gal for a quarantine tank. The web sites are great.  I will look at them more in depth when I get back from my trip to south Texas. Judy   "Ain't nuthin' like ridin' a fine horse in new country."  Agustus MacCrae ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 11:41:48 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] planted aquariums I have low tech planted tanks that just require water changes and filter cleanings. As for the plants, all I have to do is trim them every week (or they outgrow my tank and the fish have no where to swim, LOL). It's a very easy setup to take care of and maintain. If you want very colorful plants you'll need to get CO2 injection, but you can keep low light/medium light plants fairly well. Here are instructions of how to set up a Walstad natural planted tank. http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-a-walstad-natural-planted-tank.html For different types of plants and many pictures to help identify the plants at the LFS, try Plantgeek. http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php Amber On 1/25/2011 7:27 AM, judith wrote: > > Hi all, first I want to say my Ram cichlid died. I dosed him with > Maracyn two. I tried pima fix and mela fix, and also I tried quick > cure. That pretty much covered bacteria, fungi, and parasites. I > started with the quick cure, then I tried the fixes and then the > maracyn. Alas, he didn't make it. Maybe I should have started with the > antibiotic. It is hard to tell. As he had cottony white patches I may > have misdiagnosed his ailment. My female ram has taken up with the > other male. > Now for a planted tank, can anyone tell me step by step how to set up > a planted tank and the plants and products to use? I thought I would > take my 2.5 gal tank and try and set up a planted area for a new > betta. Also one of these days I would like to set up a 20 gal. I have > bad luck with plants. I have a moss ball and a banana root plant that > have survived my endeavors. > Also someone has said to use a pothos ivy for filtration. How is this > done? > Thank you all, I read your posts as they pop up on my phone. So I read > your posts all day long. I have learned alot! > > Judy > Oklahoma > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50210	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: ram cichlids

I posted about my male ram dying, now my female is looking like she is getting the same thing. I was watching my fish and she was right up at the glass and I saw tiny white patches on her head, no where else, and her caudal fin looks like it has some thin patches like the fin is damaged a little, it is a very small area. My other male, he is very shy and stays hidden alot, he has always been this way, he was poking his head out of his log and it was shaking. more like twitching. I think I read something about this on this group but can't remember what it was. There are 3 young rams from a hatch a couple of months ago, 2 orange neon tetras, 1 rubber lipped pleco, and a small algae eater of some kind in the tank with the 2 adult rams. It is a 26 gal. tank Do I start dosing with antibiotics? I have to go out of town to a funeral and will be gone 5 days! My husband is not a fish person but can follow any instructions I write down. (He takes care of my horses when I am gone, so I'm hoping that translates to fish!) I will check my water parameters and do a PWC before I leave. Please help me! Thanks guys Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50211	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: ram cichlids

I don't want to go on the web to help me, because that is where I went when my male ram got sick and ended up killing my mystery snail because I read they can tolerate salt from a site perported to be a mystery snail site. So I am very leary of these sites anymore. Thanks, Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50212	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

The parents are in my album, Haecklers Bettas. Krishna is the father and Kalpana is the mother. It's not a very good picture of Kalpana, she was reluctant to be photographed. We thought she was a tad ugly when we got her, looked brown, but it turned out she's what they call mustard gas, a popular color and the makes can look really spectacular. She was really a robust fish, tho, and we accidentally conditioned her by putting her in with the Endler's guppies - she ate fry until it looked like she would burst, then got really filled with eggs. She's got a great personality - very spunky and fearless but gentle around other fish. Krishna is what they call lavender Cambodian - Cambodian is the "white" body with red fins (no black on the body), and lavender means it has blue iridescence over it, so they can look purple at times. The Cambodian fry have white bodies but they can turn red as they mature. I thought the genes of the two colors would cancel each other out and we'd get all wild-type fry - no red from mom, no black from dad, and only one of them with the butterfly gene. Instead we got a rainbow! I don't know what the other genes in the parents (recessive so they didn't show) were. The butterfly gene made the ones with the black on them get a black band on the edges of their fins, and it made the Cambodians get a variety of patterns - some have red streaks like peppermint sticks, some have a butterfly-type band, some have almost no red so they look white. I think the most striking fry are the red/black ones that have very little iridescence. I'll have to get a picture of Abhishek, our favorite and a keeper - his body is dark black that fades into vivid red on the fins that fade to very pale to the very edge then there is a dark black band. He only has some very faint whitish blue iridescence on the straight edges of his fins. After my daughter spawns her new fish, Don (with Kalpana - trying for a 3-band butterfly), I intend to breed Abhishek with Rani, a green melano with good iridescence and the butterfly gene, and see if we can get more like Abhishek. He'll be good to breed because he was the fastest maturing fry and has a wonderful body shape (and was one of the least aggressive of the fry). I have one more I removed that has very little red and a white body - it has the cellphane type fins - clear at the ends, also something the butterfly gene does, but most of the fins are very green from the iridescence. It's tail is almost half-moon. I have that one in my shrimp tank and he's been helpful in eating all my planaria worms, getting fat while he does me a favor! He's in the top of the picture of two of the fry that look white. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > Haecklers; > Are the fry in the pics all from the same spawn? The colors are so varied. Can > you post pics of the parents? > > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 6:42:53 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry > > They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they > said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry > are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to > the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little > concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! > > If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right > and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! > > If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium > ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown > gunk is a likely source. > > My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating > baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than > others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do > find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well > >for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them > >when there already straight swimming > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50213	From: judith	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: 26 gal parameters

Ok tested my water with the API master test kit. It is : ph 8.2 ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate 5 ppm These are good? I don't have a gh/kh test kit but thought of getting one if it is necessary, or just good to test for hardness. My test strips say I have hard water. Thanks Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50214	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Sorry, I forgot which group I was in. I just added pics of the parents, once the moderator approves them you can see them, and the album is Haecklers Fish, I think. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > Haecklers; > Are the fry in the pics all from the same spawn? The colors are so varied. Can > you post pics of the parents? > > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 6:42:53 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry > > They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they > said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry > are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to > the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little > concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! > > If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right > and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! > > If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium > ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown > gunk is a likely source. > > My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating > baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than > others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do > find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well > >for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them > >when there already straight swimming > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > -Gian > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50215	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

Just approved your 4 Betta pics a few minutes ago (around 5PM) to the Photo Section. They are now available for viewing. BTW, you have some nice Bettas there. Ray</HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50216	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters

Hi Judy, There are many people that can help you here BUT not everyone has the same approach to a problem. If you listen to a bunch of people, that’s what you’ll have--------a bunch of answers. This is not bad but may be dangerous to the fish. Why? One person will say or do something different. If that person should miss something that was posted by another author too you, the result could be a real mess or out right catastrophe for the fishes. The G/H-K/H test kit not withstanding, your pH is a bit high for Rams, if they are German Blues. Next, what kind of Rams do you have? Bolivian or German Blues? Why? There is a difference in their over-all water requirements. The Bolivian Rams are more tolerant of water parameters, the German are not. Secondly, one of the German considerations is heat-------a lot of it. To the tune of at least 82 to 84 degrees. would be better. I should say also that German Blues are a bit touchy, they hate anything changed in their tank, including themselves. When bullied as yours was, it may take him a while to come around and realize it’s safe to come out, the other male is gone. As far as general overall water conditions are concerned, here’s what you should know. The tank should have a lot of hiding places or plants to hide in. Temperature should be around 84 (this is why they have so few tank mates, not many fish will tolerate this higher range), next GH/KH and pH. They like and do very well in soft water and they like a pH of 5.5 to 5.8 (on the acid side of the scale. If you check out the water conditions for the Discus, you will find that both fish require about the same. Lastly it is difficult to prescribe any type of medication without more information on exactly what you are trying to treat. Also how long as the fish had this problem and what is it doing now? Nothing? Not eating? Swimming around or basically staying still in the water, if so where? By the top or surface of the tank, mid-water or lying on the bottom? Also on the testing? You said the API master test kit but then at the bottom of the message you mention test strips? I did not know that the kit came that way. Mine uses dye and glass viles to match to a color coded card. Bill --- On Tue, 1/25/11, judith <jkw1860@...> wrote: > From: judith <jkw1860@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 2:39 PM > Ok tested my water with the API > master test kit.  It is : > ph 8.2 > ammonia 0 ppm > nitrite 0 ppm > nitrate 5 ppm > These are good?  I don't have a gh/kh test kit but > thought of getting one if it is necessary, or just good to > test for hardness.  My test strips say I have hard > water. > > Thanks > Judy > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50217	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

>A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants from >my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. I >did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other >tanks as well. > >Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? In a word, No > > ~ Laurie The absolute best killer of Hydra is Flubendazole. Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50218	From: haecklers	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry

:) Thanks! We think they're the best we've seen, but I think I'm partial! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, sevenspringss@... wrote: > > Just approved your 4 Betta pics a few minutes ago (around 5PM) to the > Photo Section. They are now available for viewing. BTW, you have some nice > Bettas there. > > Ray</HTML> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50219	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters

Hi Bill, Firstly, I have Bolivian Rams. I keep the tank temp at 80 to 82. The tank has lots of caves and a big hunk of wood and lots of fake plants. It has a bubble wand and two filters. One for a 10 to 20 gal and one for a 20 to 30 gal. I have had these guys for a little over a year. They have spawned 3 times. My master test kit didn't come with strips. I used strips before someone recommended using chemicals. Both adult rams are swimming around and eating. Right now they are acting normal. But the male is twitching his head and the female looks to have some patches on her caudal fin. The ram that died swam around and acted normal when he had the spots so I left him alone. When he started hiding I took him out and put him in a small tank by himself because his spots had gotten worse. I think I started treating him too late and he died because I started out treating for parasites and fungi. I think he needed antibiotics and I started these too late. He looked very ragged and in the end was breathing hard and his gills looked swollen. So I was thinking about starting some treatment before they got too sick. Thanks for all the info. Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone -----Original Message----- From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:32:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters Hi Judy, There are many people that can help you here BUT not everyone has the same approach to a problem. If you listen to a bunch of people, that’s what you’ll have--------a bunch of answers. This is not bad but may be dangerous to the fish. Why? One person will say or do something different. If that person should miss something that was posted by another author too you, the result could be a real mess or out right catastrophe for the fishes. The G/H-K/H test kit not withstanding, your pH is a bit high for Rams, if they are German Blues. Next, what kind of Rams do you have? Bolivian or German Blues? Why? There is a difference in their over-all water requirements. The Bolivian Rams are more tolerant of water parameters, the German are not. Secondly, one of the German considerations is heat-------a lot of it. To the tune of at least 82 to 84 degrees. would be better. I should say also that German Blues are a bit touchy, they hate anything changed in their tank, including themselves. When bullied as yours was, it may take him a while to come around and realize it’s safe to come out, the other male is gone. As far as general overall water conditions are concerned, here’s what you should know. The tank should have a lot of hiding places or plants to hide in. Temperature should be around 84 (this is why they have so few tank mates, not many fish will tolerate this higher range), next GH/KH and pH. They like and do very well in soft water and they like a pH of 5.5 to 5.8 (on the acid side of the scale. If you check out the water conditions for the Discus, you will find that both fish require about the same. Lastly it is difficult to prescribe any type of medication without more information on exactly what you are trying to treat. Also how long as the fish had this problem and what is it doing now? Nothing? Not eating? Swimming around or basically staying still in the water, if so where? By the top or surface of the tank, mid-water or lying on the bottom? Also on the testing? You said the API master test kit but then at the bottom of the message you mention test strips? I did not know that the kit came that way. Mine uses dye and glass viles to match to a color coded card. Bill --- On Tue, 1/25/11, judith <jkw1860@...> wrote: > From: judith <jkw1860@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 2:39 PM > Ok tested my water with the API > master test kit.  It is : > ph 8.2 > ammonia 0 ppm > nitrite 0 ppm > nitrate 5 ppm > These are good?  I don't have a gh/kh test kit but > thought of getting one if it is necessary, or just good to > test for hardness.  My test strips say I have hard > water. > > Thanks > Judy > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50220	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

Laurie, I cannot speak from experience on this question, but I believe that I have heard that blue gouramis are terrors on hydra, as well as conspecifics. Just keep them on the hungry side until they have done their job. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants from my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. I did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other tanks as well. Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, January 25, 2011 6:42:53 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry They are so funny at that age! We saw a documentary about octopuses and they said the babies had to learn to swim - showed them swimming crazily. Betta fry are like that - at first they have spurts of speed then get tired and fall to the bottom, head-first. They zig and zag and crash into things. I was a little concerned when I saw that, that they were sick or something. LOL! If you lose some at this stage, don't sweat it. We tried to do everything right and wound up with fish up to our ears! I don't have the space to keep them all! If you need more infusoria, plants are often coated in it, and aquarium ornaments, wood, etc. are as well. Anything mossy or coated in green or brown gunk is a likely source. My friend just had her betta fry start swimming and said they're already eating baby brine shrimp. I think some spawns of betta fry are slightly larger than others, not all can eat baby brine shrimp the first week. If you try them, do find them a snail because dead brine shrimp rot quickly. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks. Yeah I'm already waiting for them to use up all their yolk sac. Well >for now they still seem to be quite a bit wriggly when moving and I'll feed them >when there already straight swimming > > > Thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50221	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters

The one problem I see that might be why your Rams are not doing very well is your pH. Rams prefer a pH in the 6's, and will really only do well if all their water requirements are adhered to. I have a pH of about 6.8 and I still had trouble keeping my Ram's alive. I gave up after I lost 10 of them over a years time frame. Rams prefer soft and clean water (very picky fish), if the nitrates get too high they can easily get sick and die. Don't try to change your pH as this can also cause problems with your current fish, keeping your pH at a different level than your tapwater is difficult to do, but can be done. It's usually just safer and much easier if you don't try to change your pH and instead only keep fish that prefer your pH range. I know this isn't an answer that you want to hear, I often have to ignore fish that I absolutely adore and wish I could keep, just because my pH is too low for them :( I hope your Rams get better. Amber On 1/25/2011 10:39 AM, judith wrote: > > Ok tested my water with the API master test kit. It is : > ph 8.2 > ammonia 0 ppm > nitrite 0 ppm > nitrate 5 ppm > These are good? I don't have a gh/kh test kit but thought of getting > one if it is necessary, or just good to test for hardness. My test > strips say I have hard water. > > Thanks > Judy > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50222	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters

Thanks for bringing up the differences in the two Rams Bill, I didn't remember which ones she has, but I think they are Bolivian rams. Amber On 1/25/2011 12:32 PM, bill 1433 wrote: > > Hi Judy, > > There are many people that can help you here BUT not everyone has the > same approach to a problem. If you listen to a bunch of people, that’s > what you’ll have--------a bunch of answers. This is not bad but may be > dangerous to the fish. Why? > > One person will say or do something different. If that person should miss > something that was posted by another author too you, the result could > be a real mess or out right catastrophe for the fishes. > > The G/H-K/H test kit not withstanding, your pH is a bit high for Rams, > if they are German Blues. Next, what kind of Rams do you have? > Bolivian or German Blues? Why? There is a difference in their over-all > water requirements. The Bolivian Rams are more tolerant of water > parameters, the German are not. Secondly, one of the German > considerations is heat-------a lot of it. To the tune of at least 82 > to 84 degrees. would be better. I should say also that German Blues > are a bit touchy, they hate anything changed in their tank, including > themselves. When bullied as yours was, it may take him a while to come > around and realize it’s safe to come out, the other male is gone. > > As far as general overall water conditions are concerned, here’s what > you should know. The tank should have a lot of hiding places or plants > to hide in. Temperature should be around 84 (this is why they have so > few tank mates, not many fish will tolerate this higher range), next > GH/KH and pH. They like and do very well in soft water and they like a > pH of 5.5 to 5.8 (on the acid side of the scale. If you check out the > water conditions for the Discus, you will find that both fish require > about the same. > > Lastly it is difficult to prescribe any type of medication without > more information on exactly what you are trying to treat. Also how > long as the fish had this problem and what is it doing now? Nothing? > Not eating? Swimming around or basically staying still in the water, > if so where? By the top or surface of the tank, mid-water or lying on > the bottom? Also on the testing? You said the API master test kit but > then at the bottom of the message you mention test strips? I did not > know that the kit came that way. Mine uses dye and glass viles to > match to a color coded card. > > Bill > > --- On Tue, 1/25/11, judith <jkw1860@... > <mailto:jkw1860%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > From: judith <jkw1860@... <mailto:jkw1860%40yahoo.com>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 2:39 PM > > Ok tested my water with the API > > master test kit. It is : > > ph 8.2 > > ammonia 0 ppm > > nitrite 0 ppm > > nitrate 5 ppm > > These are good? I don't have a gh/kh test kit but > > thought of getting one if it is necessary, or just good to > > test for hardness. My test strips say I have hard > > water. > > > > Thanks > > Judy > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50223	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: Re: 26 gal parameters

What do the patches on the female look like? Are they fuzzy, white, dull in color, etc? If possible try to get a picture of her, but since they are typically fairly shy fish this could be hard to do. Amber On 1/25/2011 1:13 PM, jkw1860@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > Firstly, I have Bolivian Rams. I keep the tank temp at 80 to 82. The > tank has lots of caves and a big hunk of wood and lots of fake plants. > It has a bubble wand and two filters. One for a 10 to 20 gal and one > for a 20 to 30 gal. I have had these guys for a little over a year. > They have spawned 3 times. > My master test kit didn't come with strips. I used strips before > someone recommended using chemicals. > Both adult rams are swimming around and eating. Right now they are > acting normal. But the male is twitching his head and the female looks > to have some patches on her caudal fin. The ram that died swam around > and acted normal when he had the spots so I left him alone. When he > started hiding I took him out and put him in a small tank by himself > because his spots had gotten worse. I think I started treating him too > late and he died because I started out treating for parasites and > fungi. I think he needed antibiotics and I started these too late. He > looked very ragged and in the end was breathing hard and his gills > looked swollen. > So I was thinking about starting some treatment before they got too sick. > Thanks for all the info. > Judy > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone > > -----Original Message----- > From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@... <mailto:warrenprint%40yahoo.com>> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:32:55 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters > > Hi Judy, > > There are many people that can help you here BUT not everyone has the > same approach to a problem. If you listen to a bunch of people, that’s > what you’ll have--------a bunch of answers. This is not bad but may be > dangerous to the fish. Why? > > One person will say or do something different. If that person should miss > something that was posted by another author too you, the result could > be a real mess or out right catastrophe for the fishes. > > The G/H-K/H test kit not withstanding, your pH is a bit high for Rams, > if they are German Blues. Next, what kind of Rams do you have? > Bolivian or German Blues? Why? There is a difference in their over-all > water requirements. The Bolivian Rams are more tolerant of water > parameters, the German are not. Secondly, one of the German > considerations is heat-------a lot of it. To the tune of at least 82 > to 84 degrees. would be better. I should say also that German Blues > are a bit touchy, they hate anything changed in their tank, including > themselves. When bullied as yours was, it may take him a while to come > around and realize it’s safe to come out, the other male is gone. > > As far as general overall water conditions are concerned, here’s what > you should know. The tank should have a lot of hiding places or plants > to hide in. Temperature should be around 84 (this is why they have so > few tank mates, not many fish will tolerate this higher range), next > GH/KH and pH. They like and do very well in soft water and they like a > pH of 5.5 to 5.8 (on the acid side of the scale. If you check out the > water conditions for the Discus, you will find that both fish require > about the same. > > Lastly it is difficult to prescribe any type of medication without > more information on exactly what you are trying to treat. Also how > long as the fish had this problem and what is it doing now? Nothing? > Not eating? Swimming around or basically staying still in the water, > if so where? By the top or surface of the tank, mid-water or lying on > the bottom? Also on the testing? You said the API master test kit but > then at the bottom of the message you mention test strips? I did not > know that the kit came that way. Mine uses dye and glass viles to > match to a color coded card. > > Bill > > > --- On Tue, 1/25/11, judith <jkw1860@... > <mailto:jkw1860%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > From: judith <jkw1860@... <mailto:jkw1860%40yahoo.com>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] 26 gal parameters > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tuesday, January 25, 2011, 2:39 PM > > Ok tested my water with the API > > master test kit. It is : > > ph 8.2 > > ammonia 0 ppm > > nitrite 0 ppm > > nitrate 5 ppm > > These are good? I don't have a gh/kh test kit but > > thought of getting one if it is necessary, or just good to > > test for hardness. My test strips say I have hard > > water. > > > > Thanks > > Judy > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50224	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/25/2011
Subject: betta ry

Guys, Some people mentioned to me if I want to add snails in my fry tank. Well the problem is, I don't know where to get them. Do you know any place whether online or locally where I could avail them? Thanks! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50225	From: pam andress	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. Pam Hi Pam, Does this mean your on "Well Water"? Small town? We come close, we have the City Limit Signs on one post! <g> Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 11:36 PM Both eyes were clear. In fact, I still have the fish in my frig as I have not taken out my garbage and did not want her stinking it up. Her gills are good too. She had a white spot above the eye. After treating, the white spot went away. I thought she was fine until I looked closer and saw the missing skin. I did about a 20 % water change, I do not know how much water my neighbor changed. I didn't get ahold of the water dept. today, but will try to tomorrow. They do not let anyone know if there is a water line break. This is a very small farm town. One of those if you blink, you missed it. We do not even have a stop light in town. Stop signs, but no lights. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:57:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray Hi Again Pam, Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs? Irritation or redness around the gill areas? Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? You mentioned the neighbor. Did they change the same percent or amount of water as you did? In other words the same concentration per gallon. i.e. changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank? All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough. For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day! At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry. I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it. The money is not easy either as they always command a good price. If you got them from Hans, you got good fish. I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint. I am still thinking your water. Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too? That's too much of a coincidence! Checking around though, has anyone had problems? Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common. Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think? Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose. I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus. First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate. They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same. Since you have already stated that р╣ВтВмя┐╜SHEр╣ВтВмя┐╜, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change. This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING. They simply donр╣ВтВмя┐╜t like it. And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens? Stress! And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress? Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)! That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How? Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there. Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected. Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct? You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife р╕вр╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.><((((р╕вр╕Ъ>.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <р╕вр╕Ъ((((><.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife р╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.><((((р╕Ъ>.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш><((((р╕Ъ> р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..><((((р╕Ъ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <р╕Ъ((((><.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ╖ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ╖┤п`╖.╕╕.><((((║>.╖┤п`╖.╕╕.╖┤п`╖.╕><((((║> ╕.╖┤п`╖.╕. , .╖┤п`╖..><((((║> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <║((((><.╖┤п`╖.╕╕.╖┤п`╖.╕<║((((><╕.╖┤п`╖.╕. , .╖┤п`╖..<║((((><╖┤п`╖.╕╕. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50226	From: haecklers	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta ry

Aquabid, sweetaquatics.com are the ones I've used. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Guys, > > Some people mentioned to me if I want to add snails in my fry tank. Well the problem is, I don't know where to get them. Do you know any place whether online or locally where I could avail them? > > Thanks! > > -Gian >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50227	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam,   If I were you I would re-set my entire water baseline.  Re-do your testing for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the water temperature at the time of testing.  As Ray explained there is a big difference in gassing and such at colder water levels.   Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in 5 gallon buckets and bring it to room temperature first.  Throwing in an air stone or two, if more buckets are needed, would not hurt it either.  Then before changing out the water, check the buckets and check current parameters within the tank itself, especially the pH.  Until you get this all settled, I would do minium water changes until you know what your  working with and so as to not stress the fish too much.   Bill --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. Pam Hi Pam, Does this mean your on "Well Water"?  Small town?  We come close, we have the City Limit Signs on one post! <g> Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 11:36 PM Both eyes were clear. In fact, I still have the fish in my frig as I have not taken out my garbage and did not want her stinking it up. Her gills are good too. She had a white spot above the eye. After treating, the white spot went away. I thought she was fine until I looked closer and saw the missing skin. I did about a 20 % water change, I do not know how much water my neighbor changed. I didn't get ahold of the water dept. today, but will try to tomorrow. They do not let anyone know if there is a water line break. This is a very small farm town. One of those if you blink, you missed it. We do not even have a stop light in town. Stop signs, but no lights. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:57:07 -0800 Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray   Hi Again Pam, Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs?  Irritation or redness around the gill areas?  Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? You mentioned the neighbor.  Did they change the same percent or amount of water as you did?  In other words the same concentration per gallon.  i.e.  changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank? All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough.  For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day!  At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry.  I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it.  The money is not easy either as they always command a good price.  If you got them from Hans, you got good fish.  I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint. I am still thinking your water.  Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too?  That's too much of a coincidence!  Checking around though, has anyone had problems?  Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common.  Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think? Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM Hi Bill, Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: warrenprint@... Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray   Hi Pam! Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose.  I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus.  First of all, although the Discus is always touted as being very delicate.  They are not much different than say, German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat requirements are the same.  Since you have already stated that р╣ВтВмÑ�â”�â•œSHEр╣ВтВмÑ�â”�â•œ, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, ANY kind of change.  This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING.  They simply donр╣ВтВмÑ�â”�â•œt like it.  And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens?  Stress!  And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress?  Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)!  That being said if you are from a city or have city water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How?  Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there.  Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected.  Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct?  You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? Good hearing from you, Bill --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. BUT I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50228	From: Ray	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Something wrong with my method of changing water

Actually, two of them -- dichloramine (NHCl2) and trichloramine/nitrogen trichloride (NCl3), aside from the organic chloramines (R2NCl and RNCl2) which we're not concerned about here, do degas into the atmosphere, although it is always attempted for these to be avoid in the first place, but that part's not always successful. These two chloramines, which give a bad odor and bad taste to the drinking water, develope when too much chlorine is used in proportion to the ammonia. The third one, the chloramine itself (NH2Cl) -- the monochloramine that we need to deal with -- will rapidly break down at 40 o C with the chlorine then degassing, but that's 104 o F -- a tad warm for most fishes < g >. When added to the water supply though, the chlorine is first introduced as a gas to the water upstream of the ammonia, which is added in liquid form downstream of the chlorine. As water is pumped through the system under pressure, it will hold more dissolved gases (oxygen, carbon dioxide, etc.), and yes -- especially when cold (as cold water will also hold more dissolved gases) -- when it's released and as the temperature goes up, these gases come out of suspension and will coat all surfaces (aquarium glass, plants, fishes' bodies & fins and fishes' gills) it comes into contact with, with ultra-fine bubbles. I believe too that the influences of pressure and cold can also induce water to be able to dissolve more such chemicals and/or compounds as (liquid) chloramine to pass into solution, although I could be wrong on that notion. Someone on here recently mentioned of reading that fish can get the bends from this outgassing. While this won't occur in the fish, this process is probably what was meant when using that term, when these fine bubbles are seen coating the fish -- and unseen, they also coat inside the mouth and the gill membranes. The added aeration is used to turn over the surface of the water as rapidly as possible, to facilitate in the exchange of normal atmospheric gases, in an effort to have the water absorb/dissolve as much oxygen in as short of time as possible so that the water column is not too depleted of it as the dechloraminator processes the breaking down of the chlorine and ammonia compound and further converts the ammonia into ammonium. This latter part of the process uses a good deal of oxygen to complete, as was told to me by the lab staff at Kordon/Novalek, with higher amounts of chloramine to be converted possibly resulting in dangerously low oxygen levels if aeration is not employed. So while we won't be "outgassing" the chloramine, we'll be ensuring a better oxygen content of the water when aerating it during this time. If left untreated with a dechloraminator, chloramine can take at least 3 weeks to be finally broken down by nitrifying bacteria. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > I believe the Chloramines, all 3 of them, are > liquids and do not degas into the atmosphere like > N2, O2, etc. The air and dissolved gasses in cold > water come out as the temperature goes up and can > cause ultra-fine bubbles in the gills of fishes > and cause a lot of stress. > > So, it doesn't matter about Chloramine - Cold or > Hot it is going to be there. It is not a gas and > won't come out with simple aeration. It has to be > chemically treated to remove it. > > Charles H > > > Regardless of any possible additional quantities of chloramine being added > > to the water, most of us are (or should be) aware that the colder that the > > water is, the greater concentrations of any gases that it will hold. On top > > of that, the higher the pressure that the water is under when it's being > > pumped through the water system, again, the water has an even greater > > potential for holding even more gases. During the Winter, even if similar > > quantities of chloramine are added to the water now as compared to the > > Summer, the water itself, under pressure and much colder, is going to absorb > > more chloramine. > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50229	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

I can speak from experience, Flubendazole does an excellent job in a very small dose with no affect on fish, plants or anything else if removed in a few days time. Charles H >Laurie, > >I cannot speak from experience on this question, but I believe that I have >heard that blue gouramis are terrors on hydra, as well as conspecifics. Just >keep them on the hungry side until they have done their job. > >\\Steve// > >-----Original Message----- >From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo >Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:22 PM >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra > >A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants >from >my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. >I >did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other >tanks as well. > >Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? > > ~ Laurie -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50230	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

Where can I get flubendozole? Fenbendozole is in a common dog worm medication. Very cheap to get, only thing is you only need a tiny amount and it is difficult to measure. It also does not dissolve easily, but it worked fine for me before. Thanks! ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Charles Harrison <charles@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:44:06 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra I can speak from experience, Flubendazole does an excellent job in a very small dose with no affect on fish, plants or anything else if removed in a few days time. Charles H >Laurie, > >I cannot speak from experience on this question, but I believe that I have >heard that blue gouramis are terrors on hydra, as well as conspecifics. Just >keep them on the hungry side until they have done their job. > >\\Steve// > >-----Original Message----- >From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo >Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:22 PM >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra > >A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants >from >my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. >I >did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other >tanks as well. > >Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? > > ~ Laurie -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50231	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: betta fry - hydra

>Where can I get flubendozole? Fenbendozole is >in a common dog worm medication. >Very cheap to get, only thing is you only need a >tiny amount and it is difficult >to measure. It also does not dissolve easily, >but it worked fine for me before. > >Thanks! www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ Charles H > ~ Laurie >________________________________ >From: Charles Harrison <charles@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 12:44:06 PM >Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra > >I can speak from experience, Flubendazole does an >excellent job in a very small dose with no affect >on fish, plants or anything else if removed in a >few days time. > >Charles H > > >>Laurie, >> >>I cannot speak from experience on this question, but I believe that I have >>heard that blue gouramis are terrors on hydra, as well as conspecifics. Just >>keep them on the hungry side until they have done their job. >> >>\\Steve// >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >>Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo >>Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:22 PM >>To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: betta fry - hydra >> >>A word of caution on adding things to your fry tank. I added some plants >>from >>my outdoor tub as it had a colony of daphnia. Found out it also had hydra. >>I >>did use some dog wormer, fenbendozole I think, but now I see it in my other >>tanks as well. >> >>Are there fish or shrimp or ? that eats hydra? >> >> ~ Laurie > > >-- >}}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ >Change as much water as often as you can! >Charles Harrison in St Louis >http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ >}}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50232	From: annieg	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: New to the group

My name is Annie and I am setting up a 5 gal tank for a new betta. My question is when I went to my local fish store I wanted to try florite in my tank so they sold me some from one of their tanks. So I set my little tank up, rinsed the florite some, added two plants for now, put in my cycle, did the test and now the next day I seemed that I have inherited some very small snails. While they are kinda cute will they take over my little tank like I seem them do in the past? IF so what should I do to keep down the population. At this time they are my only occupants. Thanks in advance for any insight to the snails Annie

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50233	From: pam andress	Date: 1/26/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Bill, That sounds good, but I can't lift buckets anymore. I have a python that I use for my water changes. I did talk to my boyfriend and we may wash out the can litter buckets I have saved and he said he would lift them for me until I get this figured out. I did find out I do not have a tester for chlorine, so this may take me a little bit to get figured out. Pam Hi Pam, If I were you I would re-set my entire water baseline. Re-do your testing for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the water temperature at the time of testing. As Ray explained there is a big difference in gassing and such at colder water levels. Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in 5 gallon buckets and bring it to room temperature first. Throwing in an air stone or two, if more buckets are needed, would not hurt it either. Then before changing out the water, check the buckets and check current parameters within the tank itself, especially the pH. Until you get this all settled, I would do minium water changes until you know what your working with and so as to not stress the fish too much. Bill --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50234	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to the group

Annie, from my experience (and lots of very good advice) don't overfeed your fish. The snails will eat the extra food, conditioning them to reproduce! Less excess fish food means = less snails. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: annieg <crazycora1@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, January 26, 2011 6:33:42 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] New to the group My name is Annie and I am setting up a 5 gal tank for a new betta. My question is when I went to my local fish store I wanted to try florite in my tank so they sold me some from one of their tanks. So I set my little tank up, rinsed the florite some, added two plants for now, put in my cycle, did the test and now the next day I seemed that I have inherited some very small snails. While they are kinda cute will they take over my little tank like I seem them do in the past? IF so what should I do to keep down the population. At this time they are my only occupants. Thanks in advance for any insight to the snails Annie ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50235	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to the group

My bettas eat small snails. They catch them when they're dropping from the top and suck them out of the shells. A few snails can be useful at keeping things clean, depending on the kinds. I've got those plain little "pond snails" and ramshorns and even when I let them grow pretty big they don't seem to cause much trouble with most plants. They like to eat diatoms, which make that brown film on the surfaces. They also like to eat the biofilm you sometimes get on the water surface. If they have the long pointy shells, then they are Malaysian Trumpet Snails, MTS for short, and they are helpful - they come out mostly at night and eat algae from the walls and sift through the substrate, cleaning it and preventing harmful bacteria from building up. I think the key is to not over feed your fish - that's when the population explosions happen and the snails become a problem. Ironically the worst kind to get are the ones most often sold in pet stores - the Apple Snails - they'll mow down your plants in no time, and make babies until the job is finished. Did you I.D. your plants? The pet stores lately are selling "aquatic" plants that actually don't belong under water - they'll live for a few months maybe but eventually they rot. Best to look them up online. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@...> wrote: > > My name is Annie and I am setting up a 5 gal tank for a new betta. My question is when I went to my local fish store I wanted to try florite in my tank so they sold me some from one of their tanks. So I set my little tank up, rinsed the florite some, added two plants for now, put in my cycle, did the test and now the next day I seemed that I have inherited some very small snails. While they are kinda cute will they take over my little tank like I seem them do in the past? IF so what should I do to keep down the population. At this time they are my only occupants. Thanks in advance for any insight to the snails > Annie >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50236	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

Hi Pam, Another thought on the PWC’s? If you can’t lift buckets, how about something you don’t have to lift at all? Rubber Maid and Sterlite both make very large (30 to 40 gallon) containers that will easy hold your water for your changing needs. They are cheap, around $20 bucks and have lids to keep the water clean. Simply put them on a sturdy table or on cinder blocks, anything to get them up off the floor so you can create a siphon. Then take out the water in an amount that you or your boyfriend can handle. Saves your back and gives you that ability to check and temper all water before you need to use it in your aquarium. Bill --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 11:07 PM > > Bill, > > That sounds good, but I can't lift buckets anymore. I have > a python that I use for my water changes. I did talk to my > boyfriend and we may wash out the can litter buckets I have > saved and he said he would lift them for me until I get this > figured out. I did find out I do not have a tester for > chlorine, so this may take me a little bit to get figured > out. > > Pam > >   > > > > Hi Pam, > > If I were you I would re-set my entire water > baseline.  Re-do your testing > for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the > water temperature > at the time of testing.  As Ray explained there is a > big difference in gassing and > such at colder water levels. > > Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in > 5 gallon buckets and > bring it to room temperature first.  Throwing in an > air stone or two, if more buckets are > needed, would not hurt it either.  Then before > changing out the water, check the buckets > and check current parameters within the tank itself, > especially the pH.  Until you get this all settled, I > would do minium water changes until you know what your  > working with and so as to not stress the fish too much. > > Bill > > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> > wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM > > I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find > out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I > talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my > water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance > to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. > > Pam > >     >          >            >   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50237	From: Al Keep	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: rookie question.

hi all. ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around the house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50238	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

My fish have eaten small fruit moths and enjoyed them, so I don't see why other bugs shouldn't be safe to feed. Mine seem to prefer them alive and wiggling on the surface though, so perhaps don't fully kill them before dropping them into the tank? Movement tends to attract most fish to eat food. Amber On 1/27/2011 8:01 AM, Al Keep wrote: > > hi all. > ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, > and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. > spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around the > house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ? > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50239	From: William M	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

The big thing to remember i to not feed any thing that ha been prayed with insecticide or any other chemical.I cannot type the letter between "r" and "t" and the spell check doe not alway catch the word without it in them. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > My fish have eaten small fruit moths and enjoyed them, so I don't see > why other bugs shouldn't be safe to feed. Mine seem to prefer them alive > and wiggling on the surface though, so perhaps don't fully kill them > before dropping them into the tank? Movement tends to attract most fish > to eat food. > > Amber > > On 1/27/2011 8:01 AM, Al Keep wrote: > > > > hi all. > > ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, > > and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. > > spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around the > > house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ? > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50240	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

Hi Al,   You’re right but your wrong!  At first glace this seems like a great idea but reality it is not.  OK, why?   In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that these “bugs” have been exposed too.  Even fresh earthworms from your own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals.  Tropical Fish do not like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly.   The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer.  If this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has about anything you would need.  Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing on the orders weight so you  could order a year’s supply if you would like. I am about to do that very thing myself.   Last a word of caution here.  Only order from large well established suppliers. Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to how old the food is.  Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory.   Good Luck,   Bill   --- On Thu, 1/27/11, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] rookie question. > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, January 27, 2011, 12:01 PM > hi all. > ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, > and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. > spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around > the house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ? > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50241	From: john Lewis	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

Hello:    As long as they have not been exposed to bug spray...Yes!    Welcome to the group and...Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 12:01:03 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] rookie question.   hi all. ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around the house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50242	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food

Something I've been wondering about buying fish food - the fish meal or shrimp meal they use - do you think it's the stuff they're catching in the Gulf of Mexico that is contaminated from the oil spill? If people don't want to eat it, wouldn't they sell it for pet food? What I'm hearing is that while the government says it is safe, they don't even have tests for some of the chemicals they've used so they don't know if it is contaminated. The 2 million fish that washed up in Chesapeake Bay and the ones in other areas are the types that spend part of their migration in the Gulf, so could be those fish are more contaminated than they say. One guy wrote in to an environmental group list who said he was a college student who worked as a lab assistant when they tested the chemicals on fish for toxicity. He said the study was for how many were still alive after 3 days - they were mostly all alive still after 3 days, but they mostly all died soon after. Because the study only looked at the 3 days, tho, the chemical was officially "safe" to use. I wonder who designed that one? He was trying to whistle-blow but the press pretty much ignored him. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, >   > You’re right but your wrong!  At first glace this seems > like a great idea but reality it is not.  OK, why? >   > In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you > have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that > these “bugs” have been exposed too.  Even fresh earthworms from your > own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals.  Tropical Fish do not > like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly. >   > The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you > with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer.  If > this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. > There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has > about anything you would need.  Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, > this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing > on the orders weight so you  could order a year’s supply if you would like. > I am about to do that very thing myself. >   > Last a word of caution here.  Only order from large well established suppliers. > Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. > Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. > This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to > how old the food is.  Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds > on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory. >   > Good Luck, >   > Bill > Â

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50243	From: Al Keep	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

thanks all for your quick answers...this is a good group...ive been in a yahoo astronomy group for a couple years..[ im an amateur ] and have learned much and met some cyber-friends. ya got me thinkin about earthworms....i have a 400 sq. foot veggie garden i was planning on plundering but after learning fertilizer may be harmfull...[ i also lime the garden ]....i shall go for a walk in the woods to get the little dears some tasty treats.... thanks for all the good info. Al.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50244	From: annieg	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: New Fish

I bought some fish today to help get things going and be company for my betta when I get him. I bought 3 little platies water tested pretty good this a.m. I hope they will do good and will many good times in my little tank. Thanks for all the infoon the snails since I had not put any food in my tank(since I had no fish)some of them are no longer here. Glad I'm here Annie

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50245	From: haecklers	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

I started a worm bin under my kitchen sink. Red Wigglers are really easy to keep and eat kitchen scraps (I'm only using organic scraps for them). They don't smell, and you can harvest the casings for your garden in the spring. The worms sold as "trout worms" at fish bait stands are often red wigglers. A 1-gallon plastic ice cream bucket works great as a small worm bin, just drill some small holes in the lid for them to get air, and use potting soil (unfertilized) or those Jiffy compressed peat pots (what I did, reconstituted, of course) or shredded newspaper for bedding and don't over-feed. And FYI the water from rinsing out your aquarium filters is great liquid fertilizer for seedlings or houseplants! Mine are really thriving since I switched to filter-water! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > thanks all for your quick answers...this is a good group...ive been in a yahoo astronomy group for a couple years..[ im an amateur ] and have learned much and met some cyber-friends. > ya got me thinkin about earthworms....i have a 400 sq. foot veggie garden i was planning on plundering but after learning fertilizer > may be harmfull...[ i also lime the garden ]....i shall go for a walk in the woods to get the little dears some tasty treats.... > thanks for all the good info. > Al. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50246	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

A tip on platies with bettas - my platies nip betta fins. Had to take the bettas out of the livebearer tank. Not only did the platies do it, but some of the guppies too. You'd think it would be the other way around. May be best to just have him by himself, that way you don't need much filtration, keeping water movement to a minimum. Easier for bettas to swim. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: annieg <crazycora1@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 2:53:02 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] New Fish I bought some fish today to help get things going and be company for my betta when I get him. I bought 3 little platies water tested pretty good this a.m. I hope they will do good and will many good times in my little tank. Thanks for all the infoon the snails since I had not put any food in my tank(since I had no fish)some of them are no longer here. Glad I'm here Annie ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50247	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food

Meal, no matter what animal origin, is processed from parts of the animal that would otherwise go unused. You could say it was unfit for human consumption, but it is not unfit for consumption other than humans would not normally eat those parts, and it is not unfit by anyway of contamination from Gulf oil spills or any other source of contamination. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: rookie question. - fish food Something I've been wondering about buying fish food - the fish meal or shrimp meal they use - do you think it's the stuff they're catching in the Gulf of Mexico that is contaminated from the oil spill? If people don't want to eat it, wouldn't they sell it for pet food? What I'm hearing is that while the government says it is safe, they don't even have tests for some of the chemicals they've used so they don't know if it is contaminated. The 2 million fish that washed up in Chesapeake Bay and the ones in other areas are the types that spend part of their migration in the Gulf, so could be those fish are more contaminated than they say. One guy wrote in to an environmental group list who said he was a college student who worked as a lab assistant when they tested the chemicals on fish for toxicity. He said the study was for how many were still alive after 3 days - they were mostly all alive still after 3 days, but they mostly all died soon after. Because the study only looked at the 3 days, tho, the chemical was officially "safe" to use. I wonder who designed that one? He was trying to whistle-blow but the press pretty much ignored him. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, >  > You’re right but your wrong! At first glace this seems > like a great idea but reality it is not. OK, why? >  > In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you > have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that > these “bugs” have been exposed too. Even fresh earthworms from your > own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals. Tropical Fish do not > like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly. >  > The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you > with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer. If > this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. > There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has > about anything you would need. Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, > this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing > on the orders weight so you could order a year’s supply if you would like. > I am about to do that very thing myself. >  > Last a word of caution here. Only order from large well established suppliers. > Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. > Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. > This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to > how old the food is. Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds > on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory. >  > Good Luck, >  > Bill > Â

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50248	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/27/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

I just mentioned a book here the other day that you may find useful. It is Live Foods by Mike Hellweg. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Keep Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 5:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: rookie question. thanks all for your quick answers...this is a good group...ive been in a yahoo astronomy group for a couple years..[ im an amateur ] and have learned much and met some cyber-friends. ya got me thinkin about earthworms....i have a 400 sq. foot veggie garden i was planning on plundering but after learning fertilizer may be harmfull...[ i also lime the garden ]....i shall go for a walk in the woods to get the little dears some tasty treats.... thanks for all the good info. Al.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50249	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

Well basically, I myself don't recommend ants found around your house as a staple fish food. Why? Because nowadays the earth is already polluted, and everywhere you go you would surely find harmful chemicals. Just take it this way, what if there came a time that you fed your fish dead insects which were unknowingly contaminated with insecticides. For sure your fish will die right? So it would be really much better if you go on the safe side and try buying live foods from credible pet shops. May this info help somehow. God Bless! -Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50250	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

Rick, Seems as though your post was overlooked by other, as I don't see any replies although I could have missed them. Your 75 gallon pics shows some nice plantings, although not yet heavy, and a modest level of stocking. Breeding Tetras is not always easy unless you can supply their preferred water conditions -- usually soft and acid. If lowering the water level to accomodate the breeding of these fish, the water can be kept at the proper temperature by using a horizontally-postioned submersible heater; an HOB heater with not be able to control the temperature properly when its thermostat is not submersed. As a first-timer of breeding egg layers, I'd suggest trying Zebra Danios or one of their related cousins. For them, you could set up a bare tank having a length of non-floating V-notched material across each end, such as a heavy plastic bar, with the notching being spaced either at 5/8" intervals (for the use of 1/2" plastic -- or glass -- tubing, or at 1/2" intervals (for the use of 3/8" tubing). With these pieces in place across the ends (at the bottom) of the tank, lay the tubing longitudinally across the tank, resting in these notches. The 1/8" spacing between the sections of tubing should prevent the fish from being able to dive down past them to the bottom of the tank, while allowing the eggs to fall freeing to the bottom where they won't get eaten. If you feel you Zebra breeders are not quite of an age yet to be 1/8" wide, you'll need to decrease the distance between the tubing sections. In lieu of this method, you can also cover the bottom with marbles, which will have the same effect of not allowing the fish access to the eggs after they fall past the marbles to the bottom. The breeders are to be removed after spawning, as are also the marbles. As for the Rasboras, I'm not sure what you read, but the different breeding behaviors you point out are attributed to the various species of this group, with some being egg-scatterers into bushy plants,similar to Barbs, with their eggs being adhesive. Harlequin Rasboras are bred best when supplied with the broad-leafed plants you mentioned, which can include Cryptocorynes, Amazon Swords or even just 3/4" wide Giant Sagittaria to which they'll deposit their adhesive eggs on the undersides of these plants' leaves. As most of the considered species (Danios, Tetras, Rasboras or even Barbs) will produce a minimum of 150 to 200 fry, and since you have to keep whatever you raise, perhaps you'd want to breed another egglayer which isn't so prolific. While you could even try one of the Rainbowfish, using spawning mops at each end of the tank, they too will produce a lot of fry. While you state you can't sell them, perhaps you can trade them to your LFS (local fish store) for fish food and supplies. Otherwise, you might want to try one of the smaller mouthbrooding Haplochromine Cichlids of which some of the species may produce as little as two dozen (or less). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "duffy928542002" <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > Here's a pic of my 75 gal tank - I added it to the Members photos, called "75 gallon". One dwarf gold gourami, 12 neons, 12 some small tetra I can never remember the name of, one female dalmatian molly, one small cory. I have a 15 gal tank I'd like to try to breed an egglayer but it sounds tough for neons and tetras also. How do you keep the water warm if its only filled partway? The heaters won't work right. Any suggestion for a fish to breed? For a first timer? How are rasboras to breed? One website said they adhere their eggs under certain broad leafed plants, another said they scatter - both for Harlequins. I have to keep what I raise no one to sell to. I love this group. Rick >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50251	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

Also keep in mind that fire ants are toxic in and of themselves. The same chemicals that will cause the pustules when they bite you will kill fish. If you Google it you will find some articles on this particular, especially when they take off on a mating flight and hundreds (thousands?) end up in rearing ponds. Enid ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, January 27, 2011 11:15:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: rookie question. Well basically, I myself don't recommend ants found around your house as a staple fish food. Why? Because nowadays the earth is already polluted, and everywhere you go you would surely find harmful chemicals. Just take it this way, what if there came a time that you fed your fish dead insects which were unknowingly contaminated with insecticides. For sure your fish will die right? So it would be really much better if you go on the safe side and try buying live foods from credible pet shops. May this info help somehow. God Bless! -Gian [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50252	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Ray

The EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) guidelines for public water suppliers, for the use of chlorine, recommend their using up to (but no more than) 0.4 mg/liter (.4 ppm) of chlorine -- either as free chlorine or in combination with ammonia as chloramine. As Charles suggested, there's the possibility of the water company using more chloramine this time of year than you may have thought. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. > > Pam > > > > > > Hi Pam, > > Does this mean your on "Well Water"? Small town? We > come close, we have the City Limit Signs on one post! <g> > > Bill > > --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 11:36 PM > > Both eyes were clear. In fact, I still have the fish in my frig as I have not taken out my garbage and did not want her stinking it up. Her gills are good too. She had a white spot above the eye. After treating, the white spot went away. I thought she was fine until I looked closer and saw the missing skin. > > I did about a 20 % water change, I do not know how much water my neighbor changed. I didn't get ahold of the water dept. today, but will try to tomorrow. They do not let anyone know if there is a water line break. This is a very small farm town. One of those if you blink, you missed it. We do not even have a stop light in town. Stop signs, but no lights. > > Pam > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: warrenprint@... > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:57:07 -0800 > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > > > > Hi Again Pam, > > Thinking further here, you did not say, only the remark about her > eye, did the fish have or show any other outward signs? Irritation or redness > around the gill areas? Were the both eyes clear with no cloudiness? > > You mentioned the neighbor. Did they change the same percent or amount of water > as you did? In other words the same concentration per gallon. i.e. changing 15 gallons in a 55 gallon tank? > > All fish are hard to lose but the Discus, well it's just rough. For myself, it's been over 30 years since I had mine and miss them to this day! At that time I had a few breeding pairs and a lot of fry. I think its the effort and work that you put into them but then, with the fry, it all seems worth it. The money is not easy either as they always command a good price. If you got them from Hans, you got good fish. I've been around a bit and have heard nothing but praise about his fish and not one negative or complaint. > > I am still thinking your water. Yours are bad enough but the neighbor too? That's too much of a coincidence! Checking around though, has anyone had problems? Frozen water mains and pipes just busting around this time of year are very common. Something like this in the neighborhood could easily cause you problems but then the water department would have notified you of trouble on the lines, I would think? > > Bill > > --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 9:54 PM > > Hi Bill, > > Yes I only had the one discus in the tank as I had taken out the male that beat her up! He likes to bully her on occassion, so I have to seperate them, get her better and then try to put them together again to try to get them to breed. She had been acting much better since I was medicating her. She was swimming around again. Would let me pet her etc. I won 2nd place with her at a show in Chicago May 2009. My discus came from Hans, so they are good quality discus. It hurts when they die. I cried! I figured it was the damage to her that killed her, until I heard my neighbor also did a water change the same day and lost 3 of his discus. It just seams funny that only the discus had problems with the water change and not the other fish in the tanks. > > Pam > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: warrenprint@... > Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 18:25:42 -0800 > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ray > > > > Hi Pam! > > Nice to be hearing from you again and sorry for you're Discus lose. > I'd like to offer you my own humble experience with the Discus. First of all, although the Discus > is always touted as being very delicate. They are not much different than say, > German Blue Rams, as a matter of fact, their credentials for water chemistry and heat > requirements are the same. Since you have already stated that р╣Ð'тÐ'мяâ"â•œSHEр╣Ð'тÐ'мяâ"â•œ, so I am assuming that this Discus was between 12 to 20 months old and you have knowledge to sex them properly? > > These fish also have one other peculiarity; they hate and have a very low tolerance toward, > ANY kind of change. This includes, water parameters, temperature fluctuations, moving > the tank decorations, or them around ANYTHING. They simply donр╣Ð'тÐ'мяâ"â•œt like it. And when fish like these two types does not like something what happens? Stress! And, as can be expected, what will follow the stress? Sick fish, they get thrown off of their fed, may get extra skittish and bash into something in or into tank itself, anything. > > It has just been stated today about winter and municipalities added more chemicals to their > water (I would have thought that this was done more in the summer when higher temperatures abound, and so to does bacteria but go figure)! That being said if you are from a city or have city > water, I would run up a water baseline test to check for changes from time to time and certainly as the seasons change. > > As for the fish dying, of course this could be probable cause but so to could the meds. How? Because after the initial dosage, the fish could have been on the mend (but still weakened) but after the water change and then re-adding of more meds (plus some left from the original dosage) you could have gone over the limit by having part or portion of the old med still in there. Since the neighbor lost three though, I would check the water first especially if the Discus, yours and his, were the only fish affected. Also, you did not say, but I am again assuming that you do have other Discus correct? You did not have just one Discus in a tank did you? > > Good hearing from you, > > Bill > > --- On Mon, 1/24/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 24, 2011, 8:21 PM > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife р╕вр╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.><((((р╕вр╕Ъ>.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..><((((р╕вр╕Ъ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <р╕вр╕Ъ((((><.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Ш.р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Ш. , .р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч..<р╕вр╕Ъ((((><р╕вр╕Чр╕вр╕Фр╕вр╕П`р╕вр╕Ч.р╕вр╕Шр╕вр╕Ш. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife р╕Ч A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.><((((р╕Ъ>.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш><((((р╕Ъ> р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..><((((р╕Ъ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <р╕Ъ((((><.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Ш.р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Ш. , .р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч..<р╕Ъ((((><р╕Чр╕Фр╕П`р╕Ч.р╕Шр╕Ш. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ╖ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕╕.><((((â•`>.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕╕.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕><((((â•`> ╕.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕. , .╖â"¤Ð¿`╖..><((((â•`> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <â•`((((><.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕╕.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕<â•`((((><╕.╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕. , .╖â"¤Ð¿`╖..<â•`((((><╖â"¤Ð¿`╖.╕╕. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50253	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray

Pam, For some strange reason, chlorine test kits do not seem to be sold by the local fish stores, nor have I seen any of the major manufacturers of any of the popular brands of master aquarium test kits offering them -- even though you can find test kits from them for iron, phosphate, calcium, copper, oxygen, iodine & iodide and probably others that I can't think of right now. For Chlorine test kits, you need to go to a swimming pool supplier or a hot tub/spa dealer. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > Bill, > > That sounds good, but I can't lift buckets anymore. I have a python that I use for my water changes. I did talk to my boyfriend and we may wash out the can litter buckets I have saved and he said he would lift them for me until I get this figured out. I did find out I do not have a tester for chlorine, so this may take me a little bit to get figured out. > > Pam > > > > > > Hi Pam, > > If I were you I would re-set my entire water baseline. Re-do your testing > for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the water temperature > at the time of testing. As Ray explained there is a big difference in gassing and > such at colder water levels. > > Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in 5 gallon buckets and > bring it to room temperature first. Throwing in an air stone or two, if more buckets are > needed, would not hurt it either. Then before changing out the water, check the buckets > and check current parameters within the tank itself, especially the pH. Until you get this all settled, I would do minium water changes until you know what your working with and so as to not stress the fish too much. > > Bill > > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM > > I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50254	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray

Pam, While we're waiting for the test results of your aquarium and tap water parameters (and including the tank's temperature), I'd like to point out that while both you and your neighbor had Discus losses the same day after making PWC's, and that this in itself seems too coincidental to not being connected in some manner with the source water you guys both used, they still may be isolated incidences totally unrelated. A 20% PWC though is not a major change involving much in new chloramine in comparison to the remaining 80% aquarium water still in the tank. Unless the chloramine level (or some OTHER contaminent) were exceptionally high -- and they still could have been -- the odds are that any excesses of chloramine that you did not treat (from possible insufficient water conditioner) for would probably have not been enough to be fatal. I would suggest finding from your neighbor whether only a 20% PWC was done in their tank, or a much larger one. Otherwise, one other possible cause of your discus' death may have been due to combining medications -- which it is generally recommended (even by the manufacturers) not to do, unless you know it's safe. When I was a moderator on the now-defunct Uaru Forum about 4 years ago, there was an incident that came up when an advanced hobbyist treated his fish (Uaru's) with both Melafix and Pimafix, with the fish expiring sometime overnight. All parameters were tested for, and all read as promotional to most aquatic life with the slight exception that the water was acidic -- as would be expected for this species of fish. As there was nothing else obvious to have caused these fish's deaths, it was highly suspected that the cause was in combining these two medications in an acidic environment. I've read of several other deaths caused under the same circumstances (Melafix, Pimafix + acid water) and while nothing can really be proven, with the elimination of any other possible causes, everything seems to have pointed to this combination. Generally, hardly anyone thinks to combine these medications, although it is not entirely uncommon for the hobbyist to do this. Normally though, as most public water suppliers buffer their water if needed or use it as is provided it's in the alkaline range, so as such, it's probably fair to say that the majority of home aquariums have a pH above neutral, which wouldn't render this combination of medications toxic to fish, if such a combination can be proven to be fatal (in acid water). We don't yet know your pH, and if it's alkaline we can rule out this possibility -- but if your water is acid, this may be something to suspect. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > I have a question for you Ray and anyone else. I had a beat up Discus I was treating in a 29 gal tank. She was doing much better after a week of treatment with Melafix and Primafix. I decided to do a water change ( treated the water as I always do). I did notice that around her eye she had some skin lose, so I treated the water again with meds. That night I went to go to bed and found her dead. I figured it was just the injury that finally did her in. I also have a BN in this tank and he is fine. > > BUT > > I talked to my next door neighbor the next day and found out he had also done a water change on his tank that had some discus in it the same day I did and he lost 3 of his. It did NOT affect other fish in the tank. > > Could something be in our water? How would I know when it is safe to do water changes again? > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50255	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray

>Pam, > >For some strange reason, chlorine test kits do >not seem to be sold by the local fish stores, >nor have I seen any of the major manufacturers >of any of the popular brands of master aquarium >test kits offering them -- even though you can >find test kits from them for iron, phosphate, >calcium, copper, oxygen, iodine & iodide and >probably others that I can't think of right now. >For Chlorine test kits, you need to go to a >swimming pool supplier or a hot tub/spa dealer. > >Ray That is exactly why I went about making my own. I thought about a color comparison test but that meant fading over time or some yellow dye to do the job to make a color to compare for the exact amount. That was my "Ah Ha" moment, I don't want ANY Chlorine in the water I put in the tank with my fish. Why not double the concentration of the testing reagent and make the test as sensitive as I can. So I did. Now 3 drops of my test solution in 10 mls of water to be tested will turn yellow if there are a few parts per billion in it. It was my perfect solution to knowing if Chlorine had broken through my Charcoal filtration cylinder. I could test it every time I needed to use it and I haven't lost a fish to Chloramine since then. That was back in 1997. I still make it up when I need it. It's the OTO test reagent. It has a little acid in it and that is probably why one doesn't see it at the LPS. Or maybe they would rather just sell more fish as customers have to purchase more Chlorine remover/ water conditioner. Blame it on the tank not being cycled! Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50256	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question.

I'd like to add to what the others have posted for replies to this thread.. Whether your fish will eat insects will depend on what species of fish you are keeping. Not all fish are insectivore, not all will eat worms, either. The other important thing to consider is that just because a fish will eat it doesn't mean its good for them. If you feed a high protein diet such as worms and insects to a vegetarian species of fish, they're going to develop health problems, mostly issues you can't see just by looking at them. Fatty liver, kidney failure, fat build up around the heart.... all things that can happen if a fish is given a less than proper diet, and all things that can greatly shorten the animal's life span. If you post what species of fish you are keeping it would be much easier for others to suggest proper foods to meet their nutrition needs. In regards to the question that was asked about the shrimp meal, etc... I can find out about the Aqueon foods, but I don't have time to call every manufacturer contact I have to ask them. Chances are they are not using shrimp or shrimp parts that have been exposed to the gulf oil spill... these companies have a reputation to uphold and if their foods start to kill off the customer's fish, that reputation is going to go down the toilet quick. I'll post again when I have an answer about the Aqueon and Kent Marine products. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi all. > ive been enjoying this hobby for about 5 weeks now, > and have a question for when the warmer weather comes. > spiders and ants ect. that i could catch/kill in and around the house..... tasty treat for my fish or a no no ? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50257	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@...> wrote: > > I bought some fish today to help get things going and be company for my betta when I get him. I bought 3 little platies water tested pretty good this a.m. I hope they will do good and will many good times in my little tank. Thanks for all the infoon the snails since I had not put any food in my tank(since I had no fish)some of them are no longer here. Glad I'm here > Annie >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50258	From: Sam	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Parasites

Hello fellow Fish owners, What is the best way to deal with a parasite on the tail of one of my platy fish? Is salt the best way or should I isolate it and treat with something else? Sam, Chicago

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50259	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food

I can tell you that Aqueon and Kent Marine only use shrimp meal and such that comes from the Pacific and/or stuff that is farm raised. There is no reason to fear those foods, they have not been exposed to either the Gulf oil spill or the Alaskan spill from yrs before. This info comes direct from the company. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Something I've been wondering about buying fish food - the fish meal or shrimp meal they use - do you think it's the stuff they're catching in the Gulf of Mexico that is contaminated from the oil spill? If people don't want to eat it, wouldn't they sell it for pet food? > > What I'm hearing is that while the government says it is safe, they don't even have tests for some of the chemicals they've used so they don't know if it is contaminated. The 2 million fish that washed up in Chesapeake Bay and the ones in other areas are the types that spend part of their migration in the Gulf, so could be those fish are more contaminated than they say. > > One guy wrote in to an environmental group list who said he was a college student who worked as a lab assistant when they tested the chemicals on fish for toxicity. He said the study was for how many were still alive after 3 days - they were mostly all alive still after 3 days, but they mostly all died soon after. Because the study only looked at the 3 days, tho, the chemical was officially "safe" to use. I wonder who designed that one? He was trying to whistle-blow but the press pretty much ignored him. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Hi Al, > >   > > You’re right but your wrong!  At first glace this seems > > like a great idea but reality it is not.  OK, why? > >   > > In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you > > have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that > > these “bugs” have been exposed too.  Even fresh earthworms from your > > own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals.  Tropical Fish do not > > like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly. > >   > > The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you > > with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer.  If > > this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. > > There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has > > about anything you would need.  Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, > > this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing > > on the orders weight so you  could order a year’s supply if you would like. > > I am about to do that very thing myself. > >   > > Last a word of caution here.  Only order from large well established suppliers. > > Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. > > Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. > > This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to > > how old the food is.  Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds > > on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory. > >   > > Good Luck, > >   > > Bill > >   >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50260	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food

But would not farm-raised fish have the same dangers for fish that they have for human consumption? Mercury? Because the farm-raised fish are fed fish meal from ocean fish? I still buy fish food with fish-meal though. You can only do so much, LOL. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Re: rookie question. - fish food I can tell you that Aqueon and Kent Marine only use shrimp meal and such that comes from the Pacific and/or stuff that is farm raised. There is no reason to fear those foods, they have not been exposed to either the Gulf oil spill or the Alaskan spill from yrs before. This info comes direct from the company. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Something I've been wondering about buying fish food - the fish meal or shrimp meal they use - do you think it's the stuff they're catching in the Gulf of Mexico that is contaminated from the oil spill? If people don't want to eat it, wouldn't they sell it for pet food? > > What I'm hearing is that while the government says it is safe, they don't even have tests for some of the chemicals they've used so they don't know if it is contaminated. The 2 million fish that washed up in Chesapeake Bay and the ones in other areas are the types that spend part of their migration in the Gulf, so could be those fish are more contaminated than they say. > > One guy wrote in to an environmental group list who said he was a college student who worked as a lab assistant when they tested the chemicals on fish for toxicity. He said the study was for how many were still alive after 3 days - they were mostly all alive still after 3 days, but they mostly all died soon after. Because the study only looked at the 3 days, tho, the chemical was officially "safe" to use. I wonder who designed that one? He was trying to whistle-blow but the press pretty much ignored him. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Hi Al, > >  > > You’re right but your wrong! At first glace this seems > > like a great idea but reality it is not. OK, why? > >  > > In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you > > have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that > > these “bugs” have been exposed too. Even fresh earthworms from your > > own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals. Tropical Fish do not > > like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly. > >  > > The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you > > with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer. If > > this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. > > There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has > > about anything you would need. Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, > > this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing > > on the orders weight so you could order a year’s supply if you would like. > > I am about to do that very thing myself. > >  > > Last a word of caution here. Only order from large well established suppliers. > > Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. > > Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. > > This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to > > how old the food is. Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds > > on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory. > >  > > Good Luck, > >  > > Bill > >  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50261	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

Thanks for your answers to my questions about trying to breed an egglayer for the first time. I'm jumping right into it - bypassing the zebras. I have about 12 Red Minor Tetras and I noticed about a week ago two of them in my 75 gallon were "twitterpated" as Disney said in Bambi. They were mating. So I've started feeding the tank frozen brine shrimp in addition to their usual flakes and dried tubifex worms, and boy they scoop up those frozen shrimp. So I set up my 15 gallon tank and filled it, no substrate. I put in a sponge filter and I just got a heater for it. I ordered and today got in the mail a cup of Java Moss - seems to have made the trip okay. I'm pretty sure my Ph in tap is low - like 6.8. But on the hard side, so I'll buy something to soften the water. I tried to start an infusoria thing - a one quart glass jar, half full of water, but the only dried egg I could find was egg white only. Don't know if that will work so I put in a sprig of grass...no clue if that's gonna work or not. So maybe in a few days if I get infusoria jar cloudy then clear, I'll be ready to rock. So a question - will I get infusora from dried egg and/or a grass sprig? I can't find powdered whole egg. I have no lettuce or fresh greens..... -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50262	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

Can you describe what is wrong with your platy, or possible tank a clear picture? Or if possible, do you know what kind of parasite is on the tail of your platy? Amber On 1/28/2011 11:54 AM, Sam wrote: > > Hello fellow Fish owners, > What is the best way to deal with a parasite on the tail of one of my > platy fish? Is salt the best way or should I isolate it and treat with > something else? > > Sam, Chicago > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50263	From: Sam	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

Hi Amber, I did not remember the name but someone else already came up with an anchor worm type parasite and it is what I remember they were when I ID'd them from previous troubles back when I took fish from a creek in the back yard back in the later 70's. On 1/28/2011 7:21 PM, Amber Berglund wrote: > Can you describe what is wrong with your platy, or possible tank a clear > picture? Or if possible, do you know what kind of parasite is on the > tail of your platy? > > Amber > > On 1/28/2011 11:54 AM, Sam wrote: >> Hello fellow Fish owners, >> What is the best way to deal with a parasite on the tail of one of my >> platy fish? Is salt the best way or should I isolate it and treat with >> something else? >> >> Sam, Chicago >> >> > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50264	From: haecklers	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

What you need mainly for infusoria is something to "rot" in the water - the infusoria feed on the bacteria from rotting stuff. It doesn't have to be egg. Other methods I've read about are to put in a few pieces of straw, or a grain or two of rice. Don't overdo it or you'll get a stinky mess - fine if it's outside, but you don't want it in your home in the winter! The "Culturing Live Foods" book often recommended on this site says a common error in raising infusoria is to over feed it and wind up with stinky water. That is unnecessary. A little bit will do. But you also need a source for the culture. Pond water, etc. will have it but you may bring in other things you don't want. Tank water usually has infusoria in it in small amounts. The filters are usually rich in infusoria. If you have any sort of mechanical filter in your current tank setup - sponge, floss, etc. you can rinse that into some tank water (in a bucket, not into your tank! LOL!) and use that to start your infusoria, or you may find it is already full of infusoria and then your main task will be diluting it enough it doesn't stink too badly while you use it to feed your fry. On a site I read about growing daphnia, it said even tap water aged several weeks will kill daphnia. I don't know about other kinds of infusoria, but I think the older the water the better, so maybe next time you do a water change, save some of that water for your infusoria culture. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > Thanks for your answers to my questions about trying to breed an egglayer for the first time. I'm jumping right into it - bypassing the zebras. I have about 12 Red Minor Tetras and I noticed about a week ago two of them in my 75 gallon were "twitterpated" as Disney said in Bambi. They were mating. So I've started feeding the tank frozen brine shrimp in addition to their usual flakes and dried tubifex worms, and boy they scoop up those frozen shrimp. > So I set up my 15 gallon tank and filled it, no substrate. I put in a sponge filter and I just got a heater for it. I ordered and today got in the mail a cup of Java Moss - seems to have made the trip okay. I'm pretty sure my Ph in tap is low - like 6.8. But on the hard side, so I'll buy something to soften the water. I tried to start an infusoria thing - a one quart glass jar, half full of water, but the only dried egg I could find was egg white only. Don't know if that will work so I put in a sprig of grass...no clue if that's gonna work or not. So maybe in a few days if I get infusoria jar cloudy then clear, I'll be ready to rock. So a question - will I get infusora from dried egg and/or a grass sprig? I can't find powdered whole egg. I have no lettuce or fresh greens..... > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50265	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

Sounds like Sam has an anchor worm. I have treated pond fish before with a drop of Advantage flea control for dogs. Not sure how others do it. Advantage will kill and insects and shrimp, so not a god idea if you have any of those. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 5:21:11 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Parasites Can you describe what is wrong with your platy, or possible tank a clear picture? Or if possible, do you know what kind of parasite is on the tail of your platy? Amber On 1/28/2011 11:54 AM, Sam wrote: > > Hello fellow Fish owners, > What is the best way to deal with a parasite on the tail of one of my > platy fish? Is salt the best way or should I isolate it and treat with > something else? > > Sam, Chicago > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50266	From: annieg	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

my tank is a 5 gal. with an over the back filter with charchol filter pad. It has a heater and 5 live plants. I was told by my local fish store that platies were a good fish to put with the betta so that's why I went that way.These are female platies that I guess I could find a home for somewhere. Annie --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? > > Dawn > >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50267	From: pam andress	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray

I have one coming Ray. I just hope it gets here before I NEED to change water again. I'm scared to do it now. Pam Pam, For some strange reason, chlorine test kits do not seem to be sold by the local fish stores, nor have I seen any of the major manufacturers of any of the popular brands of master aquarium test kits offering them -- even though you can find test kits from them for iron, phosphate, calcium, copper, oxygen, iodine & iodide and probably others that I can't think of right now. For Chlorine test kits, you need to go to a swimming pool supplier or a hot tub/spa dealer. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > Bill, > > That sounds good, but I can't lift buckets anymore. I have a python that I use for my water changes. I did talk to my boyfriend and we may wash out the can litter buckets I have saved and he said he would lift them for me until I get this figured out. I did find out I do not have a tester for chlorine, so this may take me a little bit to get figured out. > > Pam > > > > > > Hi Pam, > > If I were you I would re-set my entire water baseline. Re-do your testing > for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the water temperature > at the time of testing. As Ray explained there is a big difference in gassing and > such at colder water levels. > > Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in 5 gallon buckets and > bring it to room temperature first. Throwing in an air stone or two, if more buckets are > needed, would not hurt it either. Then before changing out the water, check the buckets > and check current parameters within the tank itself, especially the pH. Until you get this all settled, I would do minium water changes until you know what your working with and so as to not stress the fish too much. > > Bill > > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM > > I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. > > Pam > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50268	From: Ray	Date: 1/28/2011
Subject: Re: Breeding egglayers

Rick, For starters, since you're only "pretty sure" that your tap water's pH is "low" -- like 6.8 (presumedly as you can't test it), I'd suggest that you buy a test kit -- preferably a master one containing enough for all your needs. While a pH of 6.8 is admittedly below neutral, it is really not low in acidic terms or in the needs for spawning acid-water-loving fishes. Most Tetras prefer their water closer to pH 6.0 than to 7.0, for spawning, so unless you know more about aquatic chemistry I'd advise you trying some different fish, especially since you mention having hard water. If your water were soft, you may get your Red Minors to successfully spawn even at pH 6.8, but there is no magical elixir that you can buy that will soften the water (without retaining a similar TDS content) unless you plan on fooling around with peat -- which is fine, again if you have the knowledge to work with it. While there are water softening pillows on the market that will soften your water via ion exchange using a resin for that purpose, the amount of calcium or magnesium ions you'd be pulling out would be exchanged with a similar amount of sodium ions, so your Total Dissolved Solids would remain the same, allowing for a similar conductivity in microseimens -- which may have an adverse effect on the eggs if the fish did happen to spawn -- which may be questionable, depending upon the hardness level. Here again, a GH test kit (and also a KH test kit) would be indispensible. That your Red Minors are acting up in the manner they are though, I could guess that your water may not be as hard as you seem to think. Before looking into softening your water -- and you could also use R/O water or distilled water mixed with your tap water, if needed, if you know more about water chemistry -- establishing just what your hardness is with the use of test kits would go a long way in determining if these measures are even necessary. You may be able to work with your fish with your water as is, or with just a minor change. For the infusoria, just about any organic matter will help in producing a culture -- you don't specifically need dried egg. You can use canned peas (or a bit of pea soup), beans, white or sweet potato or even dried or just crushed aquatic plant matter. Green water is an excellent source of infusoria and once you have that going, you'd have one of the best sources of food for the fry. A couple of pinches of powdered milk to the pint of aquarium water, or a teaspoon of skim milk to the quart of aquarium water will also produce results; even a bit of hard boiled egg yolk in a jar of aquarium water -- always being more successful when having snails half digesting the organic matter in promoting these animaculae. Just one grass sprig though, would not be quite enough to get a any kind of a large enough culture going in good time. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > Thanks for your answers to my questions about trying to breed an egglayer for the first time. I'm jumping right into it - bypassing the zebras. I have about 12 Red Minor Tetras and I noticed about a week ago two of them in my 75 gallon were "twitterpated" as Disney said in Bambi. They were mating. So I've started feeding the tank frozen brine shrimp in addition to their usual flakes and dried tubifex worms, and boy they scoop up those frozen shrimp. > So I set up my 15 gallon tank and filled it, no substrate. I put in a sponge filter and I just got a heater for it. I ordered and today got in the mail a cup of Java Moss - seems to have made the trip okay. I'm pretty sure my Ph in tap is low - like 6.8. But on the hard side, so I'll buy something to soften the water. I tried to start an infusoria thing - a one quart glass jar, half full of water, but the only dried egg I could find was egg white only. Don't know if that will work so I put in a sprig of grass...no clue if that's gonna work or not. So maybe in a few days if I get infusoria jar cloudy then clear, I'll be ready to rock. So a question - will I get infusora from dried egg and/or a grass sprig? I can't find powdered whole egg. I have no lettuce or fresh greens..... > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50269	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

If you feel your fish have Anchor Worm, salt will do little good towards eradicating them. If you're not quite sure (and they are shaped like anchors, about 1/2" long, so their fairly obvious as to their description), and if you could post a photo, this may help. There are a number of remedies on the market to treat for them. Among them, there's Dimilin (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc)), Fluke Tabs (Aquarium Products), Anchors Away (Jungle Labs) and Anchor Control (Nursery Pro EcoRx). Best to make sure first, what you have before medicating. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Sam <skywavebe@...> wrote: > > Hi Amber, > I did not remember the name but someone > else already came up with an anchor worm > type parasite and it is what I remember > they were when I ID'd them from previous > troubles back when I took > fish from a creek in the back yard back in > the later 70's. > > > > On 1/28/2011 7:21 PM, Amber Berglund wrote: > > Can you describe what is wrong with your platy, or possible tank a clear > > picture? Or if possible, do you know what kind of parasite is on the > > tail of your platy? > > > > Amber > > > > On 1/28/2011 11:54 AM, Sam wrote: > >> Hello fellow Fish owners, > >> What is the best way to deal with a parasite on the tail of one of my > >> platy fish? Is salt the best way or should I isolate it and treat with > >> something else? > >> > >> Sam, Chicago > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50270	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm Choosing Tropical Fish Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you follow a few basic steps. Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are compatible with those required by the new fish. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50271	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm Choosing Tropical Fish Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you follow a few basic steps. Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are compatible with those required by the new fish. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50272	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Pam -- Discus, was: Ray

While you're waiting, why don't you ask your neighbor how large of a PWC he made to his tank, to see how close his circumstances were to yours. Also, ask what temperature he kept his fish at. As he was also keeping Angelfish, he may not have been keeping the tank up in the vicinity of 84 o where adult Discus do best. If he was keeping his tank at 78 o, this alone could have contributed to a depressed immune system in his Discus, leading to their deaths. If however, his parameters and his maintenance methods were similar to yours, it would appear even more so that there was a common denominator at work here (quite possibly the water supply you both used at that same time). And while we're waiting, could you indicate the temperature at which you are keeping your fish, which may be able to tell us even more. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I have one coming Ray. I just hope it gets here before I NEED to change water again. I'm scared to do it now. > > Pam > > > > Pam, > > For some strange reason, chlorine test kits do not seem to be sold by the local fish stores, nor have I seen any of the major manufacturers of any of the popular brands of master aquarium test kits offering them -- even though you can find test kits from them for iron, phosphate, calcium, copper, oxygen, iodine & iodide and probably others that I can't think of right now. For Chlorine test kits, you need to go to a swimming pool supplier or a hot tub/spa dealer. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > That sounds good, but I can't lift buckets anymore. I have a python that I use for my water changes. I did talk to my boyfriend and we may wash out the can litter buckets I have saved and he said he would lift them for me until I get this figured out. I did find out I do not have a tester for chlorine, so this may take me a little bit to get figured out. > > > > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Pam, > > > > If I were you I would re-set my entire water baseline. Re-do your testing > > for a couple of days at least and also pay attention to the water temperature > > at the time of testing. As Ray explained there is a big difference in gassing and > > such at colder water levels. > > > > Also for right now, I would change water out by aging it in 5 gallon buckets and > > bring it to room temperature first. Throwing in an air stone or two, if more buckets are > > needed, would not hurt it either. Then before changing out the water, check the buckets > > and check current parameters within the tank itself, especially the pH. Until you get this all settled, I would do minium water changes until you know what your working with and so as to not stress the fish too much. > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Wed, 1/26/11, pam andress <pamandress23@> wrote: > > > > From: pam andress <pamandress23@> > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ray > > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Wednesday, January 26, 2011, 4:08 AM > > > > I have no idea where the town gets the water. I did find out that the State made them up the clorine this year. I talked to the guy at the water dept today and he said my water is probably about .3 mg/liter. I did not have a chance to do a water test today, but will try to do one tomorrow. > > > > Pam > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50273	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

Annie, I don't know if you have any specific plans for your tank, as to what other fish you plan to have, but when having a Betta in a community tank (and they ARE desirable looking fish), your choices are more limited than if you didn't already have the Betta. Better choices to go with the Betta would probably be some Tetras, but if you planned to have most any of the other livebearers -- Swordtails, Guppies, etc. -- they no doubt would react to the Betta's long fins in the same way as these Platies do. You may not even be able to keep any of the Barbs, even the milder mannered ones, and as for most of the Danio's, I wouldn't recommend them with this fish, although I'm fairly sure the new Celestial Pearl Danio would go well with him. Depending on what your plans are, you may want to get a 2 1/2 gallon tank just for the Betta. At least he'd be safe from having his fins nipped. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@...> wrote: > > my tank is a 5 gal. with an over the back filter with charchol filter pad. It has a heater and 5 live plants. I was told by my local fish store that platies were a good fish to put with the betta so that's why I went that way.These are female platies that I guess I could find a home for somewhere. > Annie > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? > > > > Dawn > > > >> > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50274	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > follow a few basic steps. > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50275	From: haecklers	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

This from the planted tank gurus, once your tank has passed the 4 week point your plants will do better if you remove the charcoal from your filter. It removes things from the water the plants need as nutrients. I don't run charcoal in any of my tanks and they do fine. The first few weeks it will help keep the water stable as the tank cycles, tho, so it's ok to leave it in at the start. 5 Gallons is pretty small to put much in with a betta. The only thing I'd put in there fish-wise would be some Endler's guppies (often sold as feeder guppies but if you get them make sure the fish in the tank are healthy), and then only 2-3. Endlers get really pretty as they mature but don't get the big tails, the color is stripes and spots on their bodies. You could put in shrimp, those little kuhli loaches (the orange/black ones don't get very big and don't add much to the bioload), interesting snails (but not plant eating ones like apple snails). One fish store near me sells tiny platies, mollies, etc. - like 3/4" size for $0.25 each. If you wanted to do the work you could get a few of them as temporary occupants and just return them when they get too big and trade them for smaller ones. There are also some dwarf cories you can get and a kind of dwarf killifish that stays tiny but you'd have to get them from aquabid. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@...> wrote: > > my tank is a 5 gal. with an over the back filter with charchol filter pad. It has a heater and 5 live plants. I was told by my local fish store that platies were a good fish to put with the betta so that's why I went that way.These are female platies that I guess I could find a home for somewhere. > Annie > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? > > > > Dawn > > > >> > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50276	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: rookie question. - fish food

I apologize for any confusion, I was in a bit of a hurry when I wrote my post. Shrimp and fish that are used in the fish food come from the Pacific, things such as spirulina and other algaes, wheat, etc come from farm raised crops. In regards to the mercury... it is not toxic to fish, it is stored in their fat deposits found primarily in the stomach area and along the spine. This is why the government warns about consuming too much fish. The human body can tolerate very small amounts of mercury. Just about every waterway in the states contains some amount of mercury. Mercury is also found in the soil, but the amounts are so small that it is seldom detectable. If you check your municipal water analysis, most contain some trace amounts of mercury. It is large amounts that cause problems in people and other pets such as dogs and cats. So unless aquarium fish are being considered as food for human consumption, mercury should not be considered as an issue. I hope this helps clarify things for you. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > But would not farm-raised fish have the same dangers for fish that they have for human consumption? Mercury? Because the farm-raised fish are fed fish meal from ocean fish? > > > > I still buy fish food with fish-meal though. You can only do so much, LOL. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 4:39 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Re: rookie question. - fish food > > > > > > I can tell you that Aqueon and Kent Marine only use shrimp meal and such that comes from the Pacific and/or stuff that is farm raised. There is no reason to fear those foods, they have not been exposed to either the Gulf oil spill or the Alaskan spill from yrs before. > This info comes direct from the company. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Something I've been wondering about buying fish food - the fish meal or shrimp meal they use - do you think it's the stuff they're catching in the Gulf of Mexico that is contaminated from the oil spill? If people don't want to eat it, wouldn't they sell it for pet food? > > > > What I'm hearing is that while the government says it is safe, they don't even have tests for some of the chemicals they've used so they don't know if it is contaminated. The 2 million fish that washed up in Chesapeake Bay and the ones in other areas are the types that spend part of their migration in the Gulf, so could be those fish are more contaminated than they say. > > > > One guy wrote in to an environmental group list who said he was a college student who worked as a lab assistant when they tested the chemicals on fish for toxicity. He said the study was for how many were still alive after 3 days - they were mostly all alive still after 3 days, but they mostly all died soon after. Because the study only looked at the 3 days, tho, the chemical was officially "safe" to use. I wonder who designed that one? He was trying to whistle-blow but the press pretty much ignored him. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Al, > > >  > > > You’re right but your wrong! At first glace this seems > > > like a great idea but reality it is not. OK, why? > > >  > > > In today’s world with this be polluted, and that be polluted you > > > have no idea what type of poisons, chemicals what have you, that > > > these â€Å"bugs” have been exposed too. Even fresh earthworms from your > > > own yard could contain fertilizers and chemicals. Tropical Fish do not > > > like this and once eaten, you could have a tank of dead fish rather quickly. > > >  > > > The point is to rely on your own local pet store to provide you > > > with frozen foods of a good quality from some manufacturer. If > > > this is impossible because you have none locally, then mail order. > > > There are lots of places on line to order, Doctors Foster and Smith has > > > about anything you would need. Shipping is not cheap because as frozen, > > > this stuff is a next day service but the shipping per order has no bearing > > > on the orders weight so you could order a year’s supply if you would like. > > > I am about to do that very thing myself. > > >  > > > Last a word of caution here. Only order from large well established suppliers. > > > Others may have cheap foods available but there’s one slight problem, age. > > > Pet foods, especially frozen, are not always code dated like people food. > > > This being the case, unless you’re a mind reader, you have no idea as to > > > how old the food is. Buying from a well established dealer narrows the odds > > > on this happening because they are constantly moving a lot of their inventory. > > >  > > > Good Luck, > > >  > > > Bill > > >  > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50277	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

From what I've come to learn about Endler's livebearers (besides the notion that some hobbyists have somehow come to a conclusion that they're just another morph of Guppies -- erroneous or not [?]), they seem to have a much more aggressive behavior than Guppies -- and if housed with their cousins they will most often beat up on the latter species. I would not trust them with Bettas. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > This from the planted tank gurus, once your tank has passed the 4 week point your plants will do better if you remove the charcoal from your filter. It removes things from the water the plants need as nutrients. I don't run charcoal in any of my tanks and they do fine. The first few weeks it will help keep the water stable as the tank cycles, tho, so it's ok to leave it in at the start. > > 5 Gallons is pretty small to put much in with a betta. The only thing I'd put in there fish-wise would be some Endler's guppies (often sold as feeder guppies but if you get them make sure the fish in the tank are healthy), and then only 2-3. Endlers get really pretty as they mature but don't get the big tails, the color is stripes and spots on their bodies. > > You could put in shrimp, those little kuhli loaches (the orange/black ones don't get very big and don't add much to the bioload), interesting snails (but not plant eating ones like apple snails). One fish store near me sells tiny platies, mollies, etc. - like 3/4" size for $0.25 each. If you wanted to do the work you could get a few of them as temporary occupants and just return them when they get too big and trade them for smaller ones. > > There are also some dwarf cories you can get and a kind of dwarf killifish that stays tiny but you'd have to get them from aquabid. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@> wrote: > > > > my tank is a 5 gal. with an over the back filter with charchol filter pad. It has a heater and 5 live plants. I was told by my local fish store that platies were a good fish to put with the betta so that's why I went that way.These are female platies that I guess I could find a home for somewhere. > > Annie > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > >> > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50278	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > ~Kai > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50279	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

Marc's Parrots of the World is in Rockville Centre on Long Island, about 20 miles east of Rockefeller Plaza in NYC. I haven't been there since I left LI in '98 but they had WAAAAAAY more than just feathered critters there. Marc's shows and articles are more to pique interest and let a potential customer decide whether or not they are up to the task of keeping that particular animal than to be an in-depth "how to." And I tend to think his journalistic skills are sloppy rather than uninformed. He needs a good editor to correct his "I think you meant to say THIS instead" mistakes rather than just his grammar and spelling. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. > > Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. > > For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. > > The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. > > As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. > > As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. > > The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. > > My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50280	From: annieg	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: New Fish

Thank you all for your input. My husband is setting a 30 gal soon so the platies will be going to him and then I can have my betta. Annie --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > From what I've come to learn about Endler's livebearers (besides the notion that some hobbyists have somehow come to a conclusion that they're just another morph of Guppies -- erroneous or not [?]), they seem to have a much more aggressive behavior than Guppies -- and if housed with their cousins they will most often beat up on the latter species. I would not trust them with Bettas. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > This from the planted tank gurus, once your tank has passed the 4 week point your plants will do better if you remove the charcoal from your filter. It removes things from the water the plants need as nutrients. I don't run charcoal in any of my tanks and they do fine. The first few weeks it will help keep the water stable as the tank cycles, tho, so it's ok to leave it in at the start. > > > > 5 Gallons is pretty small to put much in with a betta. The only thing I'd put in there fish-wise would be some Endler's guppies (often sold as feeder guppies but if you get them make sure the fish in the tank are healthy), and then only 2-3. Endlers get really pretty as they mature but don't get the big tails, the color is stripes and spots on their bodies. > > > > You could put in shrimp, those little kuhli loaches (the orange/black ones don't get very big and don't add much to the bioload), interesting snails (but not plant eating ones like apple snails). One fish store near me sells tiny platies, mollies, etc. - like 3/4" size for $0.25 each. If you wanted to do the work you could get a few of them as temporary occupants and just return them when they get too big and trade them for smaller ones. > > > > There are also some dwarf cories you can get and a kind of dwarf killifish that stays tiny but you'd have to get them from aquabid. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "annieg" <crazycora1@> wrote: > > > > > > my tank is a 5 gal. with an over the back filter with charchol filter pad. It has a heater and 5 live plants. I was told by my local fish store that platies were a good fish to put with the betta so that's why I went that way.These are female platies that I guess I could find a home for somewhere. > > > Annie > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I agree, bettas and platies don't usually mix well, especially in a small tank. Can you tell us what size tank this is and what type of filter is on it? > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50281	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

Kai, Thanks for the clarification. It's obvious I've never been there. When doing a few Google searches on him after reading \\Steve's// link to the full article I came upon a lot of info about Marc -- including he was born in 1960 in Bronx, NY, etc. Some sites did mention, besides offering birds, he had reptiles and mammals, although none of them elaborated on his stock. BTW, did he have fish in his store? I couldn't find anything on that. When I came across his pet shop and location, I immediately saw it as Rockefeller (not Rockville) Center (and not Plaza), which, to me, told me it was in the vicinity of the world famous Radio City Music Hall in Manhatten. Agreed, Marc does lack in writing skills. If he wanted to pique a potential customer's interest, they would find themselves fast out of the hobby if they followed some of his advice -- it's counterproductive to his purposes. Been to Radio City many times, but I've never been to Rockville Centre. So, you made the move from Long Island to the Poconos! I'll bet you found it to be quite a change of pace. Happy Betta keeping!!! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Marc's Parrots of the World is in Rockville Centre on Long Island, about 20 miles east of Rockefeller Plaza in NYC. I haven't been there since I left LI in '98 but they had WAAAAAAY more than just feathered critters there. > > Marc's shows and articles are more to pique interest and let a potential customer decide whether or not they are up to the task of keeping that particular animal than to be an in-depth "how to." And I tend to think his journalistic skills are sloppy rather than uninformed. He needs a good editor to correct his "I think you meant to say THIS instead" mistakes rather than just his grammar and spelling. > ~Kai > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. > > > > Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. > > > > For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. > > > > The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. > > > > As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. > > > > As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. > > > > The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. > > > > My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > > > > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50282	From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: New poll for AquaticLife

Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the AquaticLife group: How much would you be willing to spend to obtain a specific fish? Feel free to discuss your answer in the message section, particularly if it is in the over $100 range. o $0.01-5.00 o $5.01-20.00 o $20.01-40.00 o $40.01-80.00 o $80.01-100.00 o $100.01-250.00 o $250.01-500.00 o $500.01-750.00 o $750.01- 1000.00 o more than $1000 To vote, please visit the following web page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/surveys?id=2660209 Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups web site listed above. Thanks!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50283	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Hey, big spender!

I have created a poll in conjunction with presenting this article from Practical Fishkeeping, a British (if you had not already guessed from previous articles posted) magazine. I would appreciate your participation in the poll and a discussion of your answer here. You can find it by using this link: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/surveys?id=2660209 http://tinyurl.com/4psnr7u On to the article. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3583&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_28_2011&utm_term=Hey,_big_spender!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4mdojxu Hey, big spender! Have you ever wondered how much some people will pay for a fish? Here's a selection of the most expensive fish, along with an insight into why some of them cost so much. Once you catch the fishkeeping bug, you had better hope that the fish you fall in love with is one of the less expensive ones. In our never-ending search for the rare and exotic, the cost of fishkeeping can escalate from under £100 a year to tens of thousands. Why some of us are willing to spend so much on that elusive fish could be down to a number of factors: always wanting what you can't have; spending years looking for a fish and then finding it; or discovering that at long last you have found the species that is right for you - albeit at a price that isn't so perfect. So what makes some fish more expensive in the first place? The first thing that affects the price of a fish is its availability - how easily can the shop get hold of the fish you want? The cold climate of the UK means that inevitably, the tropical species we love to keep naturally inhabit waters that can be thousands of miles away. You then need to take into account that they are sealed into plastic bags with limited oxygen supplies - so they need to arrive here pronto - so that means flights and subsequent freight charges. The fish also need to arrive in a healthy, protected state too, so add packing charges which include bags, oxygen and polystyrene boxes for insulation. Once they arrive in this country a retailer or wholesaler may also pay consolidation fees, VAT and delivery charges, and in the unfortunate event of a fish arriving dead, someone still has to pay for its space on the flight that brought it here. The next factor is how easily the fish can be bred once in captivity. Take the Platy for example. This fish is so easy to breed that many people do it by accident. But compare that to an L-number plec that by and large don't breed that easily in captivity. If you want one of these guys, someone has to locate them in their natural habitat, catch them (a huge task in itself), keep them alive while travelling to an airport, and then go through the processes listed above. Also, for several months of the year the Amazon river system is in flood, making things much more difficult. As many people know, when you travel on an aircraft, the weight of the luggage that you want to take is a crucial factor, and water is heavy. The average size of a polystyrene box is 60 x 45cm/24 x 18". Fish are packed in the minimum amount of water possible to lessen airfreight charges and the more fish that will fit into each box the better, as the bill can be split between each fish accordingly. Small fish like tetras can be packed many hundreds to a box, making airfrieght charges for each fish just a few pence. But a 30cm/12" L-number plec must travel alone, incurring a whopping charge for its air travel. Unusual variations If a fish is a white or albino version of a species that rarely produces albino variants, then the price just rockets. We've found an albino Adonis plec and knifefish on lists for £500 in the past - and an albino Red-eye arowana for an eye-watering £350,000! --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50284	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3579&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Hairy_frogfish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4vt5vjp [Video available at site] Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish This week we take a look at the Hairy or Striated frogfish, Antennarius striatus, a fish that will be familiar to some as it appears from time to time in the hobby. Check out the video too! These fascinating predators certainly live up to their common name as they're covered in thousands of fleshy, hair-like skin extensions helping to blend them in among soft corals, sponges and sea weed or simply break up the general shape of the fish when hunting on more exposed sandy areas. It has also been suggested that these 'hairs' mimic the spines of sea urchins. They are also able to change colour to match their surroundings further disguising themselves. These hirsute hunters seek out their prey in two main ways, the first of which is typical of many members of the order Lophiiformes, (commonly known as anglerfish). The frogfishís first dorsal fin spine, (known as an illicium) has evolved to move independently and is topped by a fleshy lure or 'esca' which the fish twitches and sways to simulate the movements of a marine worm. Any unwary prey tempted within reach is engulfed with lightning speed into its capacious mouth. Their stomach is also expandable and they have been known to swallow fish twice their own size. The other way of hunting employed by the frogfish is to stalk potential prey across the seabed using highly developed pectoral and pelvic fins which resemble arms. These are used to slowly 'walk' up to their target before attempting to swallow them whole. They have also been observed searching for the burrows of small fish before positioning themselves nearby and 'fishing' for their meal with their lure. They are poor, reluctant swimmers and usually only do so to flee predators and have also been known to inflate themselves with water like puffer fish as a defence mechanism. This water can be released through their tube-like gill openings to give them a form of jet propulsion to further aid escape. Females grow to around 25cm/10in, while males are usually considerably smaller at closer to 12cm/5in. Courtship can be a risky affair as hungry females aren't averse to eating any careless potential suitor that approaches without due caution. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 27 January 2011, 12:52 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50285	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

Rockville Centre is just another "bedroom community" with a bustling "downtown" along the main drag that parallels the railroad into the city. It's also the center of the Catholic Diocese. Marc's store had a large room for parrots and "exotic" furry critters like monkeys and chinchillas. There was also another room for fish and other aquatic animals but I was never in there because my friends always wanted to look at the exotics. Sometimes we'd stop in if we'd had lunch in town but the meter maids were particularly strict about 60, not 61 minutes so we didn't spend much time there. Long Island is the land of traffic and taxes. We "retired" to the country. But after 9/11, this area became "Little New York" with all the transplants. Many have since moved back to the city. Lots of foreclosures and houses for sale here. Where in Northern NJ are you? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > Thanks for the clarification. It's obvious I've never been there. When doing a few Google searches on him after reading \\Steve's// link to the full article I came upon a lot of info about Marc -- including he was born in 1960 in Bronx, NY, etc. Some sites did mention, besides offering birds, he had reptiles and mammals, although none of them elaborated on his stock. BTW, did he have fish in his store? I couldn't find anything on that. > > When I came across his pet shop and location, I immediately saw it as Rockefeller (not Rockville) Center (and not Plaza), which, to me, told me it was in the vicinity of the world famous Radio City Music Hall in Manhatten. Agreed, Marc does lack in writing skills. If he wanted to pique a potential customer's interest, they would find themselves fast out of the hobby if they followed some of his advice -- it's counterproductive to his purposes. Been to Radio City many times, but I've never been to Rockville Centre. So, you made the move from Long Island to the Poconos! I'll bet you found it to be quite a change of pace. > > Happy Betta keeping!!! > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Marc's Parrots of the World is in Rockville Centre on Long Island, about 20 miles east of Rockefeller Plaza in NYC. I haven't been there since I left LI in '98 but they had WAAAAAAY more than just feathered critters there. > > > > Marc's shows and articles are more to pique interest and let a potential customer decide whether or not they are up to the task of keeping that particular animal than to be an in-depth "how to." And I tend to think his journalistic skills are sloppy rather than uninformed. He needs a good editor to correct his "I think you meant to say THIS instead" mistakes rather than just his grammar and spelling. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. > > > > > > Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. > > > > > > For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. > > > > > > The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. > > > > > > As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. > > > > > > As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. > > > > > > The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. > > > > > > My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > > > > > > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > > > > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > > > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > > > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > > > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > > > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > > > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > > > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > > > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > > > > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > > > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > > > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > > > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > > > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > > > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > > > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > > > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > > > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > > > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > > > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > > > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > > > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > > > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > > > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > > > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > > > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50286	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

>Hello fellow Fish owners, >What is the best way to deal with a parasite on >the tail of one of my platy fish? Is salt the >best way or should I isolate it and treat with >something else? > >Sam, Chicago Net out the fish and cut it off with finger nail clippers. Put the fish back into the tank, change at least 1/2 the water and add 1 to 2 teaspoons of salt/gallon to the water. Be ready with some antifungal medication if the wound doesn't heal right away way. You should treat with some parasite medication like Fenbendazol to clear the tank of any swimming stages of Anchor worm. The wound needs to be closely watched. All the water in the tank needs to be changed out as soon as things settle to remove any of the life stages of the Anchor worm. }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50287	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish

wow, that is a nice one! That little video was impresive. I didnt think it could swallow that flatfish. Enid ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, January 29, 2011 4:25:10 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3579&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=January_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Hairy_frogfish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4vt5vjp [Video available at site] Weird fish of the week: Hairy frogfish This week we take a look at the Hairy or Striated frogfish, Antennarius striatus, a fish that will be familiar to some as it appears from time to time in the hobby. Check out the video too! These fascinating predators certainly live up to their common name as they're covered in thousands of fleshy, hair-like skin extensions helping to blend them in among soft corals, sponges and sea weed or simply break up the general shape of the fish when hunting on more exposed sandy areas. It has also been suggested that these 'hairs' mimic the spines of sea urchins. They are also able to change colour to match their surroundings further disguising themselves. These hirsute hunters seek out their prey in two main ways, the first of which is typical of many members of the order Lophiiformes, (commonly known as anglerfish). The frogfishís first dorsal fin spine, (known as an illicium) has evolved to move independently and is topped by a fleshy lure or 'esca' which the fish twitches and sways to simulate the movements of a marine worm. Any unwary prey tempted within reach is engulfed with lightning speed into its capacious mouth. Their stomach is also expandable and they have been known to swallow fish twice their own size. The other way of hunting employed by the frogfish is to stalk potential prey across the seabed using highly developed pectoral and pelvic fins which resemble arms. These are used to slowly 'walk' up to their target before attempting to swallow them whole. They have also been observed searching for the burrows of small fish before positioning themselves nearby and 'fishing' for their meal with their lure. They are poor, reluctant swimmers and usually only do so to flee predators and have also been known to inflate themselves with water like puffer fish as a defence mechanism. This water can be released through their tube-like gill openings to give them a form of jet propulsion to further aid escape. Females grow to around 25cm/10in, while males are usually considerably smaller at closer to 12cm/5in. Courtship can be a risky affair as hungry females aren't averse to eating any careless potential suitor that approaches without due caution. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 27 January 2011, 12:52 pm \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50288	From: Ray	Date: 1/29/2011
Subject: Re: Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View

Kai, I've been all over Long Island delivering fish to the wholesalers and to the various ACA members back when I was both importing and breeding the then-new Rift Lake Cichlids, as one of the first distributors of these fishes, but I never had the opportunity (or need) to visit Rockville Centre. It does sound a bit familiar to me though, but when first reading it, I associated it with the similar name that I knew quite well. Probably should have read that more slowly < g >. I wouldn't know about the taxes in Rockville Centre, not having lived there nor knowing anyone from there, but what you're saying doesn't surprise me. Seems that most any community in the area of NY City has high taxes -- including the nearby communities on the west side of the George Washington Bridge (in NJ). As for the traffic on Long Island -- "Tell me about it !!!" -- been there, done a lot of that (LOL). I'm about 15 miles due west of NY City, a few miles north of probably the largest town (city?) you've probably heard of (Hackensack) and a few miles east of a town that no one ever heard of until recently -- since all the hugh shopping centers dominate that area (Paramus); and the newest re-vamping of the major Route 4 - Route 17 interchange reminds everyone now of the spaghetti bowl of highways in LA. Fortunately, I'm still far removed from that nightmarish traffic world and bustle although I can encounter it very easily unless I take precautions to avoid it (which by now one learns to do if they've survived the battle this long). I've been all through the Poconos (for those not familiar with the term, it's the area of Mountains -- part of the Appalachian chain -- in Northeastern PA), in numerous towns throughout the region (from Milford to Honesdale, from Stroudsburg to Analomink, Scranton and Nickolson, from White Haven to Mountain Top and Wilkes Barre, etc.). Where are you located there? I'm assuming you're north of Route I-80? FISH, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Rockville Centre is just another "bedroom community" with a bustling "downtown" along the main drag that parallels the railroad into the city. It's also the center of the Catholic Diocese. > > Marc's store had a large room for parrots and "exotic" furry critters like monkeys and chinchillas. There was also another room for fish and other aquatic animals but I was never in there because my friends always wanted to look at the exotics. Sometimes we'd stop in if we'd had lunch in town but the meter maids were particularly strict about 60, not 61 minutes so we didn't spend much time there. > > Long Island is the land of traffic and taxes. We "retired" to the country. But after 9/11, this area became "Little New York" with all the transplants. Many have since moved back to the city. Lots of foreclosures and houses for sale here. > > Where in Northern NJ are you? > ~Kai > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Kai, > > > > Thanks for the clarification. It's obvious I've never been there. When doing a few Google searches on him after reading \\Steve's// link to the full article I came upon a lot of info about Marc -- including he was born in 1960 in Bronx, NY, etc. Some sites did mention, besides offering birds, he had reptiles and mammals, although none of them elaborated on his stock. BTW, did he have fish in his store? I couldn't find anything on that. > > > > When I came across his pet shop and location, I immediately saw it as Rockefeller (not Rockville) Center (and not Plaza), which, to me, told me it was in the vicinity of the world famous Radio City Music Hall in Manhatten. Agreed, Marc does lack in writing skills. If he wanted to pique a potential customer's interest, they would find themselves fast out of the hobby if they followed some of his advice -- it's counterproductive to his purposes. Been to Radio City many times, but I've never been to Rockville Centre. So, you made the move from Long Island to the Poconos! I'll bet you found it to be quite a change of pace. > > > > Happy Betta keeping!!! > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Marc's Parrots of the World is in Rockville Centre on Long Island, about 20 miles east of Rockefeller Plaza in NYC. I haven't been there since I left LI in '98 but they had WAAAAAAY more than just feathered critters there. > > > > > > Marc's shows and articles are more to pique interest and let a potential customer decide whether or not they are up to the task of keeping that particular animal than to be an in-depth "how to." And I tend to think his journalistic skills are sloppy rather than uninformed. He needs a good editor to correct his "I think you meant to say THIS instead" mistakes rather than just his grammar and spelling. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. > > > > > > > > Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. > > > > > > > > For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. > > > > > > > > The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. > > > > > > > > As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. > > > > > > > > As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. > > > > > > > > The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. > > > > > > > > My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > > > > > > > > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > > > > > > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > > > > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > > > > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > > > > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > > > > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > > > > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > > > > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > > > > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > > > > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > > > > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > > > > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > > > > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > > > > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > > > > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > > > > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > > > > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > > > > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > > > > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > > > > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > > > > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > > > > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > > > > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > > > > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > > > > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50289	From: Sam	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

Thanks Charles, This is the kind of thing that was advised to me by other but then some said to let medication take care of it so I ordered some from Big Als that is specifically for the anchor type worm. I will post what happens for other owners of tanks. On 1/29/2011 10:07 PM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > >Hello fellow Fish owners, > >What is the best way to deal with a > parasite on > >the tail of one of my platy fish? Is > salt the > >best way or should I isolate it and > treat with > >something else? > > > >Sam, Chicago > > Net out the fish and cut it off with > finger nail > clippers. Put the fish back into the > tank, change > at least 1/2 the water and add 1 to 2 > teaspoons > of salt/gallon to the water. Be ready > with some > antifungal medication if the wound > doesn't heal > right away way. You should treat with some > parasite medication like Fenbendazol to > clear the > tank of any swimming stages of Anchor worm. > > The wound needs to be closely watched. > All the > water in the tank needs to be changed > out as soon > as things settle to remove any of the > life stages > of the Anchor worm. > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have > been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50290	From: kuradi8	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Wandering off on a tangent...

I assume you were in a cube or a van, not an 18-wheeler. LI is NOT a truck-friendly place. Considering how much retail there is, it's a wonder Long Island businesses can get any merchandise. I'm vaguely familiar with your area. We have a few friends who live(d) in River Edge, Oradell and Emerson. And there used to be a BMW motorrad shop in Dumont. If we replace our tent this summer, we'll probably take a trip to Ramsey Outdoor and Campmor to do so. Years ago, the Poconos used to be known for their "honeymoon" (because there was nothing else to do) resorts. It still appeals to those from the NYC/Philly areas who want a weekend getaway. "The B'you-ti-ful Mount Airy Lodge" (did ya sing that?) was completely razed and re-built with a fancy hotel and casino. Many of the other resorts have had major face lifts as well. There are many ski slopes and a concert venue that features aging rock stars of the 60s, 70s and 80s. Heck, we even have a year-round indoor water park. Me, I'm "just" outside the little town of Mount Pocono -- best known for its Walmart. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > I've been all over Long Island delivering fish to the wholesalers and to the various ACA members back when I was both importing and breeding the then-new Rift Lake Cichlids, as one of the first distributors of these fishes, but I never had the opportunity (or need) to visit Rockville Centre. It does sound a bit familiar to me though, but when first reading it, I associated it with the similar name that I knew quite well. Probably should have read that more slowly < g >. > > I wouldn't know about the taxes in Rockville Centre, not having lived there nor knowing anyone from there, but what you're saying doesn't surprise me. Seems that most any community in the area of NY City has high taxes -- including the nearby communities on the west side of the George Washington Bridge (in NJ). As for the traffic on Long Island -- "Tell me about it !!!" -- been there, done a lot of that (LOL). > > I'm about 15 miles due west of NY City, a few miles north of probably the largest town (city?) you've probably heard of (Hackensack) and a few miles east of a town that no one ever heard of until recently -- since all the hugh shopping centers dominate that area (Paramus); and the newest re-vamping of the major Route 4 - Route 17 interchange reminds everyone now of the spaghetti bowl of highways in LA. Fortunately, I'm still far removed from that nightmarish traffic world and bustle although I can encounter it very easily unless I take precautions to avoid it (which by now one learns to do if they've survived the battle this long). > > I've been all through the Poconos (for those not familiar with the term, it's the area of Mountains -- part of the Appalachian chain -- in Northeastern PA), in numerous towns throughout the region (from Milford to Honesdale, from Stroudsburg to Analomink, Scranton and Nickolson, from White Haven to Mountain Top and Wilkes Barre, etc.). Where are you located there? I'm assuming you're north of Route I-80? > > FISH, > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Rockville Centre is just another "bedroom community" with a bustling "downtown" along the main drag that parallels the railroad into the city. It's also the center of the Catholic Diocese. > > > > Marc's store had a large room for parrots and "exotic" furry critters like monkeys and chinchillas. There was also another room for fish and other aquatic animals but I was never in there because my friends always wanted to look at the exotics. Sometimes we'd stop in if we'd had lunch in town but the meter maids were particularly strict about 60, not 61 minutes so we didn't spend much time there. > > > > Long Island is the land of traffic and taxes. We "retired" to the country. But after 9/11, this area became "Little New York" with all the transplants. Many have since moved back to the city. Lots of foreclosures and houses for sale here. > > > > Where in Northern NJ are you? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Kai, > > > > > > Thanks for the clarification. It's obvious I've never been there. When doing a few Google searches on him after reading \\Steve's// link to the full article I came upon a lot of info about Marc -- including he was born in 1960 in Bronx, NY, etc. Some sites did mention, besides offering birds, he had reptiles and mammals, although none of them elaborated on his stock. BTW, did he have fish in his store? I couldn't find anything on that. > > > > > > When I came across his pet shop and location, I immediately saw it as Rockefeller (not Rockville) Center (and not Plaza), which, to me, told me it was in the vicinity of the world famous Radio City Music Hall in Manhatten. Agreed, Marc does lack in writing skills. If he wanted to pique a potential customer's interest, they would find themselves fast out of the hobby if they followed some of his advice -- it's counterproductive to his purposes. Been to Radio City many times, but I've never been to Rockville Centre. So, you made the move from Long Island to the Poconos! I'll bet you found it to be quite a change of pace. > > > > > > Happy Betta keeping!!! > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Marc's Parrots of the World is in Rockville Centre on Long Island, about 20 miles east of Rockefeller Plaza in NYC. I haven't been there since I left LI in '98 but they had WAAAAAAY more than just feathered critters there. > > > > > > > > Marc's shows and articles are more to pique interest and let a potential customer decide whether or not they are up to the task of keeping that particular animal than to be an in-depth "how to." And I tend to think his journalistic skills are sloppy rather than uninformed. He needs a good editor to correct his "I think you meant to say THIS instead" mistakes rather than just his grammar and spelling. > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would not expect Martha to have much knowledge about the aquarium hobby, but I'd think that Marc Morrone should. I first got to know Martha about 7 or 8 years ago at a local nationally-known water garden supplier (Waterford Garden, previously Trickers) which I was managing at the time after retiring from my phototypography/lithography career. I found her to be a very pleasant lady who, at the time, seemed very interested in the aspects of aquatic life as pertains to fish ponds and related outdoor environments -- her purpose in touring the establishment. > > > > > > > > > > Marc has had several long-running shows on TV, one known just as "The Pet Shop." His most recent show on the Hallmark Channel, "Pet Keeping With Marc," as Martha's resident pet expert shows his extensive knowledge about most animals, although I'm afraid the below article written by Marc seems quite generic in its information and not informative enough for the beginner whom it appears to be directed at. He has had us (NJAS - North Jersey Aquarium Society) on his show several times, and our staff has done a most explanatory job in telling the watching audience how to set up and maintain an aquarium. > > > > > > > > > > For the most part, I see Marc as knowing birds inimately (his pet shop was named "Parrot World"), with a good knowledge of reptiles and mammals, as he also offers many kinds of them in his shop -- located in Rockefeller Center, NY City. I'm sure he must know more about fish than how he has written about them here, as there are points that he doesn't make clear for a hobbyist just starting out. > > > > > > > > > > The first anomaly I came across was his statement of Neon Tetras as being one of the more hardier fishes ("varieties"), when they have the reputation today as being just the opposite. Instead, Cardinal Tetras are usually recommended in place of them, as the specimens (mostly being imported from the Far East) are known to be much more delicate and demanding -- and not the ideal fish for a beginner to start with. He also includes Mollies as a beginner fish, when most of us already know that Mollies are not intended to be for beginners even though many shops sell them as such. Mollies ARE more demanding in their needed parameters and are NOT a beginner fish. > > > > > > > > > > As for bringing along a water sample for the pet shop to test, this may be fine advice for those not owning such equipment, rather than to subject potential fish buys to much different water, but instead of encouraging the beginner to bring along water samples, they should be encouraged to purchase and learn the use of these kits as there will shortly come a time when they need to know their parameters when the shop is not available to test it for them -- they're not open 24/7. > > > > > > > > > > As for the store's test results indicating whether the pH AND THE AMMONIA levels are compatible with those required by the new fish -- I would certainly hope the Ammonia level would be "compatible," since it should be ZERO in any tank. There is no other level of Ammonia that is compatible with ANY fish. > > > > > > > > > > The extension of Marc's article (when opening the link \\Steve// supplied) -- and which \\Steve// left out of the post -- deals with the fishes' foods, one of them recommended as being freeze dried (for the mid-tank occupants). There is no mention that this food needs to be re-hydrated before feeding it to the fish. Not to re-hydrate it is to risk bloat when the fish eats it as dehydrated and as it absorbs moisture in the fish's stomach or intestines, and it swells up to the point that the fish can't pass it. > > > > > > > > > > My purpose in drawing attention to these points is not to pick this apart, but to make any beginners on here aware of some of the pitfalls that were left open in Marc's article when better writing (or better knowledge?) could have been used since there's a lot that's too vague for the beginner to follow. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical of Martha's knowledge but Marc Morrone is wiz at pets. I used to go to his pet shop in the late 80s and early 90s before he got on our local cable system's public access channel and grew from there. http://www.hallmarkchannel.com/petkeepingwithmarcmorrone/home > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't think there's anything he doesn't know about any kind of animal... furry, feathered, scaled or other. > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there ANYTHING Martha is not into??? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 6:29 AM > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [AquaticLife] Keeping Fish, Martha Stewart's View > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.marthastewart.com/article/choosing-tropical-fish-with-marc > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/4ajt7lm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Choosing Tropical Fish > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone who raises tropical fish can tell you how easy it is to become > > > > > > > mesmerized by them. It's surprising how quickly the minutes pass as you gaze > > > > > > > into a tank at their vibrant, almost electric colors and follow the > > > > > > > seemingly random twisting and darting as they swim through the water. The > > > > > > > one drawback is the care required. Fish cannot be neglected, and the > > > > > > > conditions in the tank need regular attention. As daunting as it sounds, pet > > > > > > > expert Marc Morrone says caring for the fish can be quite simple if you > > > > > > > follow a few basic steps. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Success or failure will be determined almost from the start. The biggest > > > > > > > mistake many new fish owners make is choosing incompatible fish. Fish are > > > > > > > almost as finicky as humans; some prefer cooler water while others like it > > > > > > > warm; some are aggressive, others gentle; and different species demand > > > > > > > different acidity levels in the water. In addition, it's best to include one > > > > > > > variety of fish who like to swim near the surface, another preferring the > > > > > > > middle zones, and a few bottom dwellers. Talk with your pet-store owner > > > > > > > about good candidates. If you're new to the world of fish, chances are he or > > > > > > > she will steer you away from more demanding, exotic fish and suggest hardier > > > > > > > tropical varieties such as neon and serpae tetras, platties, swordtails, > > > > > > > mollies, catfish, and danios. While you're in the pet shop, make sure the > > > > > > > fish show no signs of disease; if you see white spots, cottony patches, or > > > > > > > frayed fins, the fish may not be in the best health. Also examine the tanks > > > > > > > to make sure they are clean and well-maintained. If you already have a tank > > > > > > > and want to introduce new members, bring along a water sample for the pet > > > > > > > store to test. This will indicate whether the pH and ammonia levels are > > > > > > > compatible with those required by the new fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50291	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

Please do NOT cut off an anchor worm! If anchor worms are removed manually, use a tweezers and be very careful. The mouth of the anchor worm is where this worm gets its name, with the "hooks" that dig deep into the skin of the fish to hold on while the worm feeds. If you pull or cut the worm off without removing the hooks, this can lead to a very serious and potentially deadly infection. All you would do is make the situation worse for the fish. When working at the store it was common at least a few times/yr to receive a shipment of fish (usually fancy goldfish) that were infested with anchor worms. Nobody liked the job of removing them, but it was the only way to save the fish because the infestation would be so great. I was often the one to take on the task and would spend hours, 1 fish at a time, with a tweezers and paper towels and wet towels to keep the fish wet... Adding salt to the water after removing the worms will help promote healing, however, not all fish can tolerate the salt even for medication. Meds that treat for anchor worm are one option, manually removing the worms with a tweezers and treating with an antibacterial medication (proper med depends on the species of fish) is the other option. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > >Hello fellow Fish owners, > >What is the best way to deal with a parasite on > >the tail of one of my platy fish? Is salt the > >best way or should I isolate it and treat with > >something else? > > > >Sam, Chicago > > Net out the fish and cut it off with finger nail > clippers. Put the fish back into the tank, change > at least 1/2 the water and add 1 to 2 teaspoons > of salt/gallon to the water. Be ready with some > antifungal medication if the wound doesn't heal > right away way. You should treat with some > parasite medication like Fenbendazol to clear the > tank of any swimming stages of Anchor worm. > > The wound needs to be closely watched. All the > water in the tank needs to be changed out as soon > as things settle to remove any of the life stages > of the Anchor worm. > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > -- > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50292	From: Ray	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Parasites

I totally agree with your advice -- which is why I recommended the choice of medications for it, that I did. Cutting the body of the anchor worm away from the fish seems to be very poor advice. What happens to the dead part of this parasite that's still imbedded in the fish? It just doesn't magically go away by itself nor does it merely fall off. This would be similar to severing a deer tick if it got into your skin, if you were to try pulling it off. The tick's head will still remain imbedded in your skin causing a severe infection. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Please do NOT cut off an anchor worm! If anchor worms are removed manually, use a tweezers and be very careful. The mouth of the anchor worm is where this worm gets its name, with the "hooks" that dig deep into the skin of the fish to hold on while the worm feeds. If you pull or cut the worm off without removing the hooks, this can lead to a very serious and potentially deadly infection. All you would do is make the situation worse for the fish. > > When working at the store it was common at least a few times/yr to receive a shipment of fish (usually fancy goldfish) that were infested with anchor worms. Nobody liked the job of removing them, but it was the only way to save the fish because the infestation would be so great. I was often the one to take on the task and would spend hours, 1 fish at a time, with a tweezers and paper towels and wet towels to keep the fish wet... > > Adding salt to the water after removing the worms will help promote healing, however, not all fish can tolerate the salt even for medication. > > Meds that treat for anchor worm are one option, manually removing the worms with a tweezers and treating with an antibacterial medication (proper med depends on the species of fish) is the other option. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > >Hello fellow Fish owners, > > >What is the best way to deal with a parasite on > > >the tail of one of my platy fish? Is salt the > > >best way or should I isolate it and treat with > > >something else? > > > > > >Sam, Chicago > > > > Net out the fish and cut it off with finger nail > > clippers. Put the fish back into the tank, change > > at least 1/2 the water and add 1 to 2 teaspoons > > of salt/gallon to the water. Be ready with some > > antifungal medication if the wound doesn't heal > > right away way. You should treat with some > > parasite medication like Fenbendazol to clear the > > tank of any swimming stages of Anchor worm. > > > > The wound needs to be closely watched. All the > > water in the tank needs to be changed out as soon > > as things settle to remove any of the life stages > > of the Anchor worm. > > > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > Charles Harrison in St Louis > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > > > -- > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50293	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Lego

Does anyone use legos in aquariums? My son wants some SpongeBob in his NEW tank and only decent sized stuff I can find is Legos. Your thoughts... Alex Semper Fi

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50294	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/30/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

They will not degrade over time, but they do have sharp edges and your fish could possibly injure themselves on the legos. Amber On 1/30/2011 12:35 PM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Does anyone use legos in aquariums? > > My son wants some SpongeBob in his NEW tank and only decent sized stuff I > can find is Legos. > > Your thoughts... > > Alex > Semper Fi > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50295	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

My kids had legos. I think some of us have rocks in our tanks that are sharper than legos. Just my opinion. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 6:36:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Lego They will not degrade over time, but they do have sharp edges and your fish could possibly injure themselves on the legos. Amber On 1/30/2011 12:35 PM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Does anyone use legos in aquariums? > > My son wants some SpongeBob in his NEW tank and only decent sized stuff I > can find is Legos. > > Your thoughts... > > Alex > Semper Fi > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50296	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

I think mine sometimes injure themselves on my plastic plants, but I still have them, LOL! Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Lego > They will not degrade over time, but they do have sharp edges and your > fish could possibly injure themselves on the legos. > > Amber > > On 1/30/2011 12:35 PM, Alex Mejia wrote: >> >> Does anyone use legos in aquariums? >> >> My son wants some SpongeBob in his NEW tank and only decent sized stuff I >> can find is Legos. >> >> Your thoughts... >> >> Alex >> Semper Fi >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50297	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

Hi Everyone, It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing authors write up something or try to answer questions about new tank syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and what’s going on inside a newly established aquarium and also what can happen in an older one if it is left go and not properly maintained. To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a very good article about this very point. Sara Jackson’s article “Keeping Up with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what goes on inside an Aquarium. Even if you do not subscribe to this magazine, picking up this copy of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the purchase price alone. Bill

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50298	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

You can actually use legos provided that YOU MUST CHOOSE THOSE WITH SMOOTH EDGES TO AVOID PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO YOUR FISH. And... if you plan to breed them anyway for any reason, having wierd decorations around like lego for your fish would lessen their mood to spawn. But if you really want to have a cartoon like aquarium, it would just be fine. Just check though if their are no harmful chemicals in the decors you plan to place in your tank. With proper thinking and advice you would anyway arrive to a very cool looking aquarium. God bless! - Gian

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50299	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

Not to mention Lego's will most likely float, getting them to stay on the bottom of the fish tank might be a challenge ;) Amber On 1/31/2011 4:11 AM, Gian Carlo Miguel wrote: > > > > You can actually use legos provided that YOU MUST CHOOSE THOSE WITH > SMOOTH EDGES TO AVOID PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO YOUR FISH. And... if you plan > to breed them anyway for any reason, having wierd decorations around > like lego for your fish would lessen their mood to spawn. > > But if you really want to have a cartoon like aquarium, it would just > be fine. Just check though if their are no harmful chemicals in the > decors you plan to place in your tank. > > With proper thinking and advice you would anyway arrive to a very cool > looking aquarium. > > God bless! > > - Gian > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50300	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

What is the mailing address of the Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine please?  I would like to subscribe. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:12 AM   Hi Everyone, It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing authors write up something or try to answer questions about new tank syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and what’s going on inside a newly established aquarium and also what can happen in an older one if it is left go and not properly maintained. To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a very good article about this very point. Sara Jackson’s article “Keeping Up with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what goes on inside an Aquarium. Even if you do not subscribe to this magazine, picking up this copy of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the purchase price alone. Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50301	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

Lego's siliconed to aquarium safe rock or slate could hold them down. Of course with aquarium safe silicone... -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 11:24 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Lego Not to mention Lego's will most likely float, getting them to stay on the bottom of the fish tank might be a challenge ;) Amber On 1/31/2011 4:11 AM, Gian Carlo Miguel wrote: > > > > You can actually use legos provided that YOU MUST CHOOSE THOSE WITH > SMOOTH EDGES TO AVOID PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO YOUR FISH. And... if you plan > to breed them anyway for any reason, having wierd decorations around > like lego for your fish would lessen their mood to spawn. > > But if you really want to have a cartoon like aquarium, it would just > be fine. Just check though if their are no harmful chemicals in the > decors you plan to place in your tank. > > With proper thinking and advice you would anyway arrive to a very cool > looking aquarium. > > God bless! > > - Gian > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50302	From: bill 1433	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

Hi Dax, Go to: http://www.tfhmagazine.com/ Bill --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> wrote: > From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 7:07 PM > What is the mailing address of the > Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine please?  I would like to > subscribe. > > Daniel John Gorham > daxgor@... > > http://www.geocities.com/daxgor > > --- On Mon, 1/31/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> > wrote: > > From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist  > Magazine----TFH > To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:12 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > >   > > >     >       >       >       Hi Everyone, > > > > It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing > authors > > write up something or try to answer questions about new > tank > > syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and > what’s going on > > inside a newly established aquarium and also what can > happen > > in an older one if it is left go and not properly > maintained. > > > > To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a > very > > good article about this very point.  Sara > Jackson’s article “Keeping > Up > > with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what > goes on inside an > > Aquarium.  Even if you do not subscribe to this > magazine, picking up this copy > > of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the > purchase price alone. > > > > Bill > > > > > >     >       > >     >     > > > > > > >   > > > > > > >       > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50303	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 1/31/2011
Subject: Re: Lego

I had some in my tank...not on purpose...they don't float. LOL. -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Lego Not to mention Lego's will most likely float, getting them to stay on the bottom of the fish tank might be a challenge ;) Amber On 1/31/2011 4:11 AM, Gian Carlo Miguel wrote: > > > > You can actually use legos provided that YOU MUST CHOOSE THOSE WITH > SMOOTH EDGES TO AVOID PHYSICAL DAMAGE TO YOUR FISH. And... if you plan > to breed them anyway for any reason, having wierd decorations around > like lego for your fish would lessen their mood to spawn. > > But if you really want to have a cartoon like aquarium, it would just > be fine. Just check though if their are no harmful chemicals in the > decors you plan to place in your tank. > > With proper thinking and advice you would anyway arrive to a very cool > looking aquarium. > > God bless! > > - Gian > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50304	From: mothermastiff	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!

Came in this morning and in my 10-gal tank of tetras (mostly von Rio and Glowlight), a pair of tiny hatchet fish and 2 dwarf frogs, there are as many bubbles on the surface as if I had one or two male bettas in nest building mode (and I have NO bettas). Is something wrong with the water, or does one of my species make a bubble nest? They are scheduled for a 25-30% change today, although I was considering more work than that, replacing the gravel and plants today and more like 50% of the water. (I have wonderful untreated deep well water that my fish and plants love.) Since I can't find little strips of lead like I used to hold down plants back in the paleolithic, I figured 20 lbs of river gravel might be deep enough to anchor the roots better. THOUGHT I was getting black gravel at Pet Supermarket, but it was very poorly dyed river gravel and looks hideous, dingy gray. So new gravel has been on the plans ever since first setup. Way overdue. Hoping to pick up some nice plants at the club raffle tomorrow night. Eagerly awaiting word, has my water gone bad, or is someone trying to build a nest? Thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50305	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

Again may I ask if someone could supply me with the mailing addres to the "Tropical Fish Hobbyist" PLEASE! Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> wrote: From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:07 PM   What is the mailing address of the Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine please?  I would like to subscribe. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:12 AM   Hi Everyone, It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing authors write up something or try to answer questions about new tank syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and what’s going on inside a newly established aquarium and also what can happen in an older one if it is left go and not properly maintained. To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a very good article about this very point. Sara Jackson’s article “Keeping Up with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what goes on inside an Aquarium. Even if you do not subscribe to this magazine, picking up this copy of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the purchase price alone. Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50306	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

Dax, Adding an exclamation point comes across as a demand. If that is the case please keep in mind no one here is paid to provide anything. Everyone here is a volunteer. I took two minutes out of my dinner break at work on a search engine and came up with your answer. TFH Magazine, 1 TFH Plz, 3rd & Union Avenues, Neptune City, NJ 07753 Located on the page below from their TFH web site. http://www.tfhmagazine.com/subscriptions/missing-issues-claim.php -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH Again may I ask if someone could supply me with the mailing addres to the "Tropical Fish Hobbyist" PLEASE! Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> wrote: From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:07 PM   What is the mailing address of the Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine please?  I would like to subscribe. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:12 AM   Hi Everyone, It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing authors write up something or try to answer questions about new tank syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and what’s going on inside a newly established aquarium and also what can happen in an older one if it is left go and not properly maintained. To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a very good article about this very point. Sara Jackson’s article “Keeping Up with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what goes on inside an Aquarium. Even if you do not subscribe to this magazine, picking up this copy of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the purchase price alone. Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50307	From: Ray	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!

There are some water conditioners, like Aqua-Safe, which will increase the surface tension of the water. If you've recently switched to this, then perhaps this is the cause. Your Stress Coat which you've been using may also produce this if you've added too much, as it contains Aloe-Vera. Other than that, bubbles on the surface can be caused by high phosphates or other DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids), in which case you are overfeeding your fish or are using a poor quality dry food. I really don't think your Tetra Color flake food would cause it though, as it's a decent brand, but any excesses of these foods is still to be avoided. In any case, unless your frogs are laying eggs < g >, it would seem that your water may be less than ideal, but if you've been making 25% - 30% PWC's (partial water changes) weekly, then your water should not have deteriorated to this extent in such short of time. Your tank has been set up now for exactly only one month -- from January 2nd. In theory, it has not yet completely cycled. If you do decide to change the gravel, do not get river gravel again as it's too course -- having spaces between the pebbles that are too large and trapping food that has fallen to the bottom which becomes beyond the reach of the fish as it falls down into this gravel. Get a gravel that has grains about 1/16" in diameter, and when you do change it, change only 1/2 of the tank at a time, with a two-week interval to preserve some of your nitrifying bacteria which are growing outside of your filter. Trapped and rotting food down in the gravel can cause your water condition too. Perhaps you could indicate to us just how you go about cleaning your filter. This may shed some light on your water problem as well. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mothermastiff" <mother@...> wrote: > > Came in this morning and in my 10-gal tank of tetras (mostly von Rio and Glowlight), a pair of tiny hatchet fish and 2 dwarf frogs, there are as many bubbles on the surface as if I had one or two male bettas in nest building mode (and I have NO bettas). > > Is something wrong with the water, or does one of my species make a bubble nest? > > They are scheduled for a 25-30% change today, although I was considering more work than that, replacing the gravel and plants today and more like 50% of the water. (I have wonderful untreated deep well water that my fish and plants love.) > > Since I can't find little strips of lead like I used to hold down plants back in the paleolithic, I figured 20 lbs of river gravel might be deep enough to anchor the roots better. THOUGHT I was getting black gravel at Pet Supermarket, but it was very poorly dyed river gravel and looks hideous, dingy gray. So new gravel has been on the plans ever since first setup. Way overdue. > > Hoping to pick up some nice plants at the club raffle tomorrow night. > > Eagerly awaiting word, has my water gone bad, or is someone trying to build a nest? > > Thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50308	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Happy Birthday!

William T. Innes is 137 years old today (2-2-2011)--if he were still with us. Happy Birthday to him. Could we try to make this a national holiday? \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50309	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw

Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM To: Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. Begin forwarded message: > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > More Info > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > >  > The Issue. > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > The Impact. > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > PIJAC Position. > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > Recommended Action. > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@.... > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50310	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/2/2011
Subject: Flourish excel and shrimp

I am getting some shrimp next week and I was curious if it is safe to use Flourish excel (and their other various ferts) with shrimp? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50311	From: Anand Rajamani	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Veggie Fish

Hi My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? (or any argument that might change my mother's mind)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50312	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

I found it disturbing when I read that a large proportion of some kinds of fish caught in the wild for the aquarium hobby die during transit. I read the problem is that they sell for so little in stores that it's more cost-effective to save money by shipping them cheaply, even if a lot of them die that way. Because of that, I hesitate to buy wild-caught fish, unless I know they are plentiful in their native habitat. I'm not opposed to the bill as stated below. What are your objections? Don't you think it's irresponsible to take wild fish and handle them so carelessly that the majority of them die? If the people catching them cannot be relied on to use common sense, then don't we need a law to mandate it? If there were tighter regulations on the way fish were handled and shipped maybe so many pet store fish wouldn't die in the stores or when you've just taken them home. I don't know about where you live, but here every fish store, almost every tank has sick or dying fish in it. The big chain stores are worse than the smaller ones, but they're the ones fueling this drop in fish prices that pushes the suppliers to use ever cheaper methods of delivering them. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50313	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Flourish excel and shrimp

Yes it is safe, but a caution so you can learn from my mistake. Excel can be used to eliminate algae and somewhere I read you can put the tank dose on the plants during a water change for a quick clean-up. Since there is less water in the tank, the Excel solution is stronger and in the still water without filters turned off, it remains concentrated around the plants for a few minutes. I have done this before with no problems and it worked well. But this time I lost several 2-year old haps and synodontis. I think the difference was (a) the water was low for a longer period of time. Maybe an hour instead of 15 minutes. And (b) I netted a fish or two while the water was low which means they were moving around more than usual and hiding in the strong solution among the plants and stirring the Excel throughout the tank more than usual. Some of the adult haps and synos seemed fine. All of the juveniles seemed fine. In retrospect it seems like a lame thing to do. : ( No snails impacted, but they probably were on the sides and out of the water during all or part of this event. I’m going to continue using the Excel. But not during a water change. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:03 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Flourish excel and shrimp I am getting some shrimp next week and I was curious if it is safe to use Flourish excel (and their other various ferts) with shrimp? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50314	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Why doesn't she want it to eat meat? What size tank do you have in mind? Red cherry shrimp can live quite awhile with no added food in a heavily planted tank, especially if you don't overcrowd them. The other extreme is tinfoil barbs who will happily eat vegetables and get to be really huge, impressive fish. My crayfish seem happy just eating their elodea (aquarium plant) and the pond snails that came with it and ignore the food I give them as long as they can reach the plant. The bunch of plants I put in there grows about as fast as they eat them so for many months I've only supplemented occasionally to make sure they are getting a complete diet, which they often ignore. Ancistrus and Otos don't eat meat, they eat algae, and vegetables like blanched zucchini when they run out of algae. They'd be good for a medium-sized tank. If all she wants is a fish that likes flake food, if you're willing to get good quality flake food you could keep a lot of the common fish - guppies especially seem to like flake food, as do barbs, tetras, etc. If the --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Anand Rajamani" <anand.rajamani@...> wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50315	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Most fish prefer a mixed diet, and do best with a mixed diet. It's similar to if you only ate vegetables all the time, this can cause vitamin deficiencies in humans, I don't see why it wouldn't cause long term issues in any fish/invertebrates (it may not be something you can actually see and tell that it's caused from only feeding fish flakes, but I wouldn't be surprised if only feeding one type of food actually did cause health problems in fish). Does your mom have a good reason why she only wants the fish to eat flake foods? There are some meaty type foods that aren't actually a piece of meat (it's a dried up pellet that either sinks or floats depending on the brand). Amber On 2/2/2011 7:50 PM, Anand Rajamani wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50316	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Once you let them mandate HOW fish are imported then it's only a matter of time before they start telling us that we can't import certain fish at all. I do agree that wasteful and improper shipping shouldn't happen, but it's a bit of a catch-22. Amber On 2/2/2011 8:54 PM, haecklers wrote: > > I found it disturbing when I read that a large proportion of some > kinds of fish caught in the wild for the aquarium hobby die during > transit. I read the problem is that they sell for so little in stores > that it's more cost-effective to save money by shipping them cheaply, > even if a lot of them die that way. Because of that, I hesitate to buy > wild-caught fish, unless I know they are plentiful in their native > habitat. I'm not opposed to the bill as stated below. What are your > objections? > > Don't you think it's irresponsible to take wild fish and handle them > so carelessly that the majority of them die? If the people catching > them cannot be relied on to use common sense, then don't we need a law > to mandate it? > > If there were tighter regulations on the way fish were handled and > shipped maybe so many pet store fish wouldn't die in the stores or > when you've just taken them home. I don't know about where you live, > but here every fish store, almost every tank has sick or dying fish in > it. The big chain stores are worse than the smaller ones, but they're > the ones fueling this drop in fish prices that pushes the suppliers to > use ever cheaper methods of delivering them. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of > Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in > the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to > this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can > send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > > To: > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the > sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for > committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the > sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > > More Info > > > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > > > >  > > > The Issue. > > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land > and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, > from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for > aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > > > The Impact. > > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from > Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons > “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, > cultural, or religious purposes� are exempt (subject to state > regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting > of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human > consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of > permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or > “public display� purposes. > > > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell� is broadly defined > to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as > well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another > person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for > consideration. > > > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 > fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 > fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up > to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. > Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of > up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium > purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who > can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can > maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, > and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, > husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial > injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be > illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters > legally. > > > > > > PIJAC Position. > > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic > aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational > basis. > > > > > > Recommended Action. > > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets > should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in > advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be > heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in > Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). > Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so > in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or > additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox > via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may > also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on > this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:pet-law-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> ~~ > > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:pet-law-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> ~~ > > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:pet-law-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50317	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Also flakes are not typically just veggies, they are usually a mixture of fish meal and veggies, and various other ingredients. There are very few veggie only foods (algae wafers being one of them). If your mom insists on only veggies as a food you could get a pleco, they eat algae in your fish tank, and will also eat various blanched veggies and sinking algae wafers, some pleco's require a piece of driftwood to chew on as well. And small freshwater shrimp will also eat these same foods. Amber On 2/2/2011 7:50 PM, Anand Rajamani wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50318	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in the tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry from the angels? I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how to care for the fry.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50319	From: mothermastiff	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > >>There are some water conditioners, like Aqua-Safe, which will increase the surface tension of the water. If you've recently switched to this, then perhaps this is the cause. Your Stress Coat which you've been using may also produce this if you've added too much, as it contains Aloe-Vera. I quit using them, you and others said that fish provide their own stress coats. <g> In general, with decent un-conditioned natural well water (comes from deep under granite), I hoped to need few or NO chemicals. >>Other than that, bubbles on the surface can be caused by high phosphates or other DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids), in which case you are overfeeding your fish or are using a poor quality dry food. OK, so is the test strip type of test adequate? What is the most effective water testing kit? It is hard to be sure of the numbers by looking at colors that are not an absolutely perfect match (Synesthesia makes me unusually sensitive to shades of colors and I can differentiate shades others simply cannot see), but using the Jungle brand Quick Dip, the test strip appears to be showing the following: Nitrate -- ~10 Nitrite -- ~2.0 Total hardness -- ~150 Chlorine -- 0 Total alkalinity -- 0 pH -- water damage on chart, definitely over 6.2 but not by a lot, under 7.8, so on the acidic side, but within the neutral range. When I was away for two full weeks (lambs started being born the morning I was SUPPOSED to leave, and I had to document how to tag and clean up a newborn more efficiently, and hey, I was really excited too) I had left food in folded pieces of paper to be fed every three days. The pet sitter used them and didn't feed from the container of flakes (he liked the convenience of just pouring the flakes from the paper, not having to measure.) I use the TetraColor flakes, though I need to get more food, as this is the bottom third of the container and getting down to smaller pieces. Since I need to buy food, what do you recommend? Tonight at the meeting someone is bringing live blackworms and offered me some, so the kids will feast tonight. That's just a treat though, for normal life, I need a good dry food that is easy to see if it is all being consumed. Don't care if it is pellets, flakes, or frozen. The small pinch of food I give is literally all eaten before it hits the bottom, which suggests I am not overfeeding. Yet about half the time, the water does seem a little cloudier for a while after feeding. >>it would seem that your water may be less than ideal, but if you've been making 25% - 30% PWC's (partial water changes) weekly, then your water should not have deteriorated to this extent in such short of time. Your tank has been set up now for exactly only one month -- from January 2nd. In theory, it has not yet completely cycled. The pet sitter only added water to offset evaporation while I was gone (two weeks out of that month) because he was not comfortable making changes in my absence. In such a small tank, is that the probable culprit? My house is SO dry, it evaporates really fast. When I have to be away so the PWC is a week overdue, is a larger percent change a good idea? Remembering I have natural well water so changes are easy. >>Get a gravel that has grains about 1/16" in diameter, and when you do change it, change only 1/2 of the tank at a time, with a two-week interval to preserve some of your nitrifying bacteria which are growing outside of your filter. Wish I had known that before I bought it. Can the coarser gravel be used under the new finer gravel I need to go out and get? And how do I change just half without their mixing? Should I leave the old coarse black-painted gravel there and simply put the finer new stuff on top of it? Being black and natural, they would not look bad together. Gee, with finer gravel, the frogs couldn't hide between big pieces of gravel and would be more visible! So shy.... If only you could buy a starter culture of those good bacteria just like you can buy fresh food! >>Trapped and rotting food down in the gravel can cause your water condition too. The only thing I can SEE that rots is the leaves that have broken off the new plants. The ones with hot pink undersides are so delicate that when I try to move them, new leaves break off. >> Perhaps you could indicate to us just how you go about cleaning your filter. This may shed some light on your water problem as well. Eek, am I supposed to CLEAN the filter? I thought it was supposed to be building up good bacteria. So, I have not disturbed the filter at all. Just before I left, I bought a filter system suitable for a 10-gallon tank because the one the previous owner had was a 30, suitable for a larger tank, and the fish were exhausted from swimming so hard just to stay in place. They are so much calmer now, they must be happier and a lot more comfortable. So, it was a new filter again about 2.5 weeks ago. It did seem to clear up some of the initial cloudiness. It would help to know what brands and models of filtration systems for a 10-gallon hang OUTSIDE the tank, since this one is so bulky and intrusive inside a tank that small. The curse of shopping at Wal-Mart, I guess. One choice per size of tank, if that. Thanks, Ray, I need details to form a clear picture. laurie (Mother Mastiff) wondering how to do a partial GRAVEL change!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50320	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, some might survive to hatching. I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is possible for some to survive. Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in a tank of their own. My cories do not protect their eggs. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in the tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry from the angels? I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how to care for the fry. ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50321	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Anand, are you saying that your mom will not allow fish that you feed RAW meat to? Or live foods such as tubifex worms or feeder fish? Some folks feed beef heart or live goldfish to larger fish. Is this what she is concerned with? Or does she not want meat in the flake food? If it is OK to have meat - which most likely would be fish or shrimp in the flake food, your options are many. Most of my fish readily eat flakes or pellets. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 9:33:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish Also flakes are not typically just veggies, they are usually a mixture of fish meal and veggies, and various other ingredients. There are very few veggie only foods (algae wafers being one of them). If your mom insists on only veggies as a food you could get a pleco, they eat algae in your fish tank, and will also eat various blanched veggies and sinking algae wafers, some pleco's require a piece of driftwood to chew on as well. And small freshwater shrimp will also eat these same foods. Amber On 2/2/2011 7:50 PM, Anand Rajamani wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50322	From: judith	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Filtration, substrate and vitamins

I have a 26 gal tank and have 30 gal and 10 gal hang on filters with the filter pads and a small net of ceramic beads in each. They have the bio wheels. Also, I have a mix of gravel and florite for plants as a substrate. There are tiny white particles that look like dust floating in the water. I added the 10 gal hang on filter hoping it would help take care of the floating matter. This has not happened. The filters are the marineland filters that take the rite size A and B filters. I change the filters once a month and clean them once a week when I do a PWC. I also clean the boxes and inspect the impellers once a month. What I would like to know: Would a sand substrate be better? I like the looks of the sand and would like to go to this type of substrate. The other thing is the type of filter. I read about canister filters and like the marineland canister filter system. But it says it is for up to 100 gal. Would this be too much for my 26 gal? Or is there such a thing as too much filtration? About the vitamins...is this a good thing or not? There is a liquid vitamin that you can put directly into the water or mix it with the food. I think my fish need vitamins as I don't feed live food or frozen food. I try very hard not to over feed now, but I think I am feeding too little now. I feed them once a day some freeze dried shrimp cubes,(a little pinch off of the cube) a half of an algae wafer broke up and scattered and sinking cichlid food. I have 2 adult cichlids, 3 young cichlids, 2 glowlight tetras, one oto and one rubber lipped pleco in this tank. Also an algae ball and a banana plant. The rest of the plants are fake. Thanks to all for your very informative posts! I love this site! I am making a list of things I need for my 2.5 gal for a walstahd planted tank. It is exciting to see planted tanks. I hope I can achieve a planted tank that is healthy and beautiful! Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50323	From: judith	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: pictures

I have made an album entitled Judy's aquariums. There are a few pictures. It is hard to take pictures of my cichlids, but I will try to get more of them. Judy

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50324	From: Ray	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!

Laurie, Glad to hear yopu stopped using the Stress-Coat, although you could still use a water conditioner such as Prime if you have heavy metals -- even if you don't have chlorine or chloramine do deal with. With your test results, I don't see a reading for ammonia, which is very important to know, as it's a very toxic organic wastew product in small amounts. Your pH reading leaves a lot to be desired, as you would not be on the acidic side if it were under pH 7.8 but over pH 7.0. From a pH of 6.2 to 7.8 is an extremely W i i d d e (wide) range, which surely is not definitive; I still don't know what your pH is. Noticed that you're using test strips, These are notoriously innacurate and undependable most of the time. I'd recommend you get a good liquid master test kit such as one from API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals Inc) -- which BTW has an ammonia kit with it. Liquid test kits are far more accurate. Along these same lines, I see you're giving us a nitrite reading of 2.0. I wholeheartedly hope that this reading is innaccurate -- and you should hope it's inaccurate as well. Nitrite is even more toxic than ammonia, and is nothing to fool around with as it can irreparably damage your fish. Both the ammonia and the nitrite levels should never be more than 0.0 for any appreciable length of time. Additionally, as opposed to ammonia (which increases its toxicity as the pH rises), nitrite becomes more toxcic as the pH drops into the acidic range. I'm hoping that your pH is above 7.0, in which case your 2.0ppm reading for it would show mostly a nitrite ion (NO2) reading instead of the more toxic nitrous acid (HNO2) reading -- even though a reading of just 0.5 is becoming stressful for your fish. depending upon the pH, nitrite can be toxic at half the readinbg you indicate (or at 1.0ppm). It can be lethal at not much more than what you're indicating, or if the water were much less than 6.5, may even become lethal at 1.0. At a pH of neutral and above, it is still injurious to your fish, but acts more slowly -- but irreversibly. I'd recommend you start making some larger PWC's than the 30% you're now doing. At one month into your cycle, yoir nitrite level has just come down from its spike about a week ago, but still needs to be reduced more. As I said, Tetra is a decent brand of fish food. You could look into getting Aquarian fish food which is a bit better, but the Tetra brand shouldn't cause you problems -- it's your present gravel that's adding to the problem. You may not be overfeeding, but there is always a small amount of foods that drops to the bottom not immediately noticed by the fish while they're still feeding at the surface. Even though these amounts of food may be rather minute, they will accumulate in the gravel over time. As the river gravel will freely allow the fallen food to fall between the comparatively large pebbles, the fish can't reach it and it builds up over time. I would not put new gravel over the river gravel if there's any chance that the older gravel contains decaying fish food -- which may be indicated since you're getting cloudy water with each feeding now. Watch thast the blackworms don't fall down into this river gravel or you'll soon have the same problem with this food deteriorating the water as they drop down into the gravel where there's little oxygen and die. While your pet sitter did right, since you were not present, being as your tank has been cycling it should have been getting PWC's all along, and testings of the ammonia and nitrite to monitor these levels to ensure enough water changing was being made, this is the most critical period if establishing a tank, especially since you are doing so with fish in it. I understand though, that you couldn't be present, but I'm just pointing out what should have been. Yes, you may do larger water changes if you need to, to keep the fish stress-free from these organic wastes build-ups, even though changing large amounts of water will prolong the cycling time -- but there's little choice if you don't want to kill the fish. To change just half of the gravel, you could push a temporary section of thin rigid plastic down into the gravel in the middle of the tank, and remove only the portion on the one side of it. It wouldn't matter if you leave a small amount of river gravel in the tank at the center and cover it over afterwards. That small amount shouldn't add anything to the problem. AH, but there ARE starter cultures of these good bacteria. There are two products on the market -- "BioSpira" and "Dr Tim's One And Only." You LFS may not carry them, and you may need to order them from a reputable on-line dealer like Drs Foster & Smith. Apparently you have not cleaned the filter. I just wanted to know if you did and how you went about it. Yes, your filter is presently building up cultures of nitrifying bacteria. Unless it's getting kind of "gunky," it wouldn't need to be disturbed half way into the cycle, but now at 4 weeks into the cycle it's safe to "clean" half of the filter media by rinsing it gently in a small bucket of aquarium water and replacing it back into the filter. Once the tank is completely cycled, which your test results will tell you when reading zero for both ammonia and nitrite, you should "clean" your filter every two weeks in this manner, with rinsing only half of the media each time. Oh, I just now saw at the bootom of your post that you changed out the filter for a more suitabler one about 2.5 weeks ago. I do remember your saying you had the Tetra 30 on there in the beginning. With this new filter, you are barely half-way through your cycle. This would be the time to really monitor your nitrite and keep it under control with PWC's as necessary. The nitrite spikes at about 20 days into the cycle, which you're approaching now. Get a reliable liquid test kit to keep on top of this. Hagen makes a very good HOB (Hang-On-Back) filter called the "Aqua-Clear," although their smallest one is really designed for a 20 gallon tank. Still better than the Tetra Whisper 30, however. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mothermastiff" <mother@...> wrote: > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > >>There are some water conditioners, like Aqua-Safe, which will increase the surface tension of the water. If you've recently switched to this, then perhaps this is the cause. Your Stress Coat which you've been using may also produce this if you've added too much, as it contains Aloe-Vera. > > I quit using them, you and others said that fish provide their own stress coats. <g> In general, with decent un-conditioned natural well water (comes from deep under granite), I hoped to need few or NO chemicals. > > >>Other than that, bubbles on the surface can be caused by high phosphates or other DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids), in which case you are overfeeding your fish or are using a poor quality dry food. > > OK, so is the test strip type of test adequate? What is the most effective water testing kit? > > It is hard to be sure of the numbers by looking at colors that are not an absolutely perfect match (Synesthesia makes me unusually sensitive to shades of colors and I can differentiate shades others simply cannot see), but using the Jungle brand Quick Dip, the test strip appears to be showing the following: > > Nitrate -- ~10 > Nitrite -- ~2.0 > Total hardness -- ~150 > Chlorine -- 0 > Total alkalinity -- 0 > pH -- water damage on chart, definitely over 6.2 but not by a lot, under 7.8, so on the acidic side, but within the neutral range. > > When I was away for two full weeks (lambs started being born the morning I was SUPPOSED to leave, and I had to document how to tag and clean up a newborn more efficiently, and hey, I was really excited too) I had left food in folded pieces of paper to be fed every three days. The pet sitter used them and didn't feed from the container of flakes (he liked the convenience of just pouring the flakes from the paper, not having to measure.) > > I use the TetraColor flakes, though I need to get more food, as this is the bottom third of the container and getting down to smaller pieces. Since I need to buy food, what do you recommend? Tonight at the meeting someone is bringing live blackworms and offered me some, so the kids will feast tonight. That's just a treat though, for normal life, I need a good dry food that is easy to see if it is all being consumed. Don't care if it is pellets, flakes, or frozen. > > The small pinch of food I give is literally all eaten before it hits the bottom, which suggests I am not overfeeding. Yet about half the time, the water does seem a little cloudier for a while after feeding. > > >>it would seem that your water may be less than ideal, but if you've been making 25% - 30% PWC's (partial water changes) weekly, then your water should not have deteriorated to this extent in such short of time. Your tank has been set up now for exactly only one month -- from January 2nd. In theory, it has not yet completely cycled. > > The pet sitter only added water to offset evaporation while I was gone (two weeks out of that month) because he was not comfortable making changes in my absence. In such a small tank, is that the probable culprit? My house is SO dry, it evaporates really fast. > > When I have to be away so the PWC is a week overdue, is a larger percent change a good idea? Remembering I have natural well water so changes are easy. > > >>Get a gravel that has grains about 1/16" in diameter, and when you do change it, change only 1/2 of the tank at a time, with a two-week interval to preserve some of your nitrifying bacteria which are growing outside of your filter. > > Wish I had known that before I bought it. Can the coarser gravel be used under the new finer gravel I need to go out and get? And how do I change just half without their mixing? > > Should I leave the old coarse black-painted gravel there and simply put the finer new stuff on top of it? Being black and natural, they would not look bad together. Gee, with finer gravel, the frogs couldn't hide between big pieces of gravel and would be more visible! So shy.... > > If only you could buy a starter culture of those good bacteria just like you can buy fresh food! > > >>Trapped and rotting food down in the gravel can cause your water condition too. > > The only thing I can SEE that rots is the leaves that have broken off the new plants. The ones with hot pink undersides are so delicate that when I try to move them, new leaves break off. > > >> Perhaps you could indicate to us just how you go about cleaning your filter. This may shed some light on your water problem as well. > > Eek, am I supposed to CLEAN the filter? I thought it was supposed to be building up good bacteria. So, I have not disturbed the filter at all. > > Just before I left, I bought a filter system suitable for a 10-gallon tank because the one the previous owner had was a 30, suitable for a larger tank, and the fish were exhausted from swimming so hard just to stay in place. They are so much calmer now, they must be happier and a lot more comfortable. > > So, it was a new filter again about 2.5 weeks ago. It did seem to clear up some of the initial cloudiness. > > It would help to know what brands and models of filtration systems for a 10-gallon hang OUTSIDE the tank, since this one is so bulky and intrusive inside a tank that small. The curse of shopping at Wal-Mart, I guess. One choice per size of tank, if that. > > Thanks, Ray, I need details to form a clear picture. > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > wondering how to do a partial GRAVEL change! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50325	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Hello:     Goldfish, Carp (I know, same thing), Silver Dollars, Morochos, all veggie eaters.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 1:37:44 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish   Anand, are you saying that your mom will not allow fish that you feed RAW meat to? Or live foods such as tubifex worms or feeder fish? Some folks feed beef heart or live goldfish to larger fish. Is this what she is concerned with? Or does she not want meat in the flake food? If it is OK to have meat - which most likely would be fish or shrimp in the flake food, your options are many. Most of my fish readily eat flakes or pellets. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 9:33:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish Also flakes are not typically just veggies, they are usually a mixture of fish meal and veggies, and various other ingredients. There are very few veggie only foods (algae wafers being one of them). If your mom insists on only veggies as a food you could get a pleco, they eat algae in your fish tank, and will also eat various blanched veggies and sinking algae wafers, some pleco's require a piece of driftwood to chew on as well. And small freshwater shrimp will also eat these same foods. Amber On 2/2/2011 7:50 PM, Anand Rajamani wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50326	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Thanks Laurie! Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just as well! My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, > some might survive to hatching. > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is possible > for some to survive. > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in a > tank of their own. > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in the > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry > from the angels? > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how to > care for the fry. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50327	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

There are already laws similar to this in place in Hawaii and they have been in effect for about the last decade. When the current laws were passed the solution for the pet trade was to move their collection spots further out from Hawaiian waters, which reflected a rise in prices on marine fish coming from that area, such as the yellow tang. I still remember the price changes at the store when that happened, the yellow tangs almost doubled in price inside of a week. We also lost availability of a few species, but the impact was mostly felt in higher costs. If this bill passes it isn't going to change much from the way things are now. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50328	From: Danielle Brown	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to answer - I just *had* to ask lol) Thanks, Dani  > >From: haecklers <haecklers@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > >  >Thanks Laurie! > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just >as well! > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: >> >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, >> some might survive to hatching. >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so >> >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is >>possible >> >> for some to survive. >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in >>a >> >> tank of their own. >> My cories do not protect their eggs. >> >> ~ Laurie >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: haecklers <haecklers@...> >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? >> >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in the > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry >> from the angels? >> >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how >>to >> >> care for the fry. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s >> >> >> Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >> ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > >> reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >>-> >> >> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- >> <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >> We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. >> >> If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > >> change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home >> page. >> >> >> Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >> includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email >> >> Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > >> will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. >> >> Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >>e-mails.Yahoo! >> >> Groups Links >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50329	From: Ray	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

\\Steve,// Looks like another inane blanket bill meant to further restricting our variety of aquarium fishes, with no real reasonable purpose or need. This would seem to have a similar end result as would the wider-reaching freshwater fishes Bill we had to be concerned about last year. I'm sure you remember Bill -- HR 669, "The Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Preservation Act," which if passed, would have created a (very abbreviated) list of allowable fishes to be owned and those fishes not on that list would have been illegal to own. Did you know the the State of Maine presently has such a law in effect? I was recently discussing Rift Lake Cichlids with a very reputable hobbyist (and member of the East Coast Cichlids Assoc.) from Maine who brought this to my attention (I was not previously aware of it). It appears -- as being similar to the HR 669 Bill -- that the State has established a list of allowable fishes, including Rift Lake Cichlids, which if a hobbyist living in that State is maintaining any species other than what's listed, that they are now going against the law. It's quite ludicrous, as this narrow-minded list may include one particular species found in a certain area of Lake Malawi (for example), which may not be particularly as plentiful as another similar more numerous species also found in that exact same area. This certainly doesn't have conservation in mind at all, not that this is it's purpose, but it takes nothing else into consideration when drawing this list up. As every lake and pond in Maine freezes over during the winter, there's not one single Rift Lake species that could ever live through this season in that State as they evolved in an environment of a rather fixed temperature near 80 o, and have only a very narrow window of range to subsist. Typically, those that draw up this garbage never do research nor do they have the first clue that these fishes could never pose an invasion danger. Ray Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50330	From: anand.rajamani	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Thanks! That was all very helpful. :)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50331	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Everyone, You can find a copy of the bill at http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/session2011/Bills/SB580_.HTM, TinyURL is http://tinyurl.com/4ofv6z6 Haecklers, There are fish that do not ship well. As a result, those fish are not often shipped, and premium prices are paid for them when they do appear in the trade. I do not know where you are reading this, but, it is not accurate. The trade tends to stay away from fish that have a high mortality rate during shipping and handling simply because there is no money in it for them. Plain old economics. What are the objections? There are many. First, collection of any fish for the purpose of sale to another is prohibited from any water within the jurisdiction of the state. Then, they allow subsistence, cultural or religious collection or capture of fish--subject to the regulation of the state. This pretty much says, OK, this is your heritage and we will allow it, but, if we feel like it, we can also stop you from doing this. They also except fish caught for food, and capture of fish used for bait used to fish for food. The bill also allows capture of fish for scientific purposes or public display purposes. I do not see any provision in this bill that defines what a public display is, so that would leave a wide latitude for enforcement of this provision if it is not already defined in the law that already exists and this bill is amending.. You can argue the penalties any way you want, but look at #2 & #3 in the second group. Those could be very damaging to a person or a business especially if they misuse the law as they do laws against dog breeders: (1) For a first offense, shall be fined not more than $1,000 or thirty days imprisonment, or both; (2) For a second offense within five years of a previous violation, shall be fined not more than $2,000 or sixty days imprisonment, or both; and (3) For a third or subsequent violation within five years of a previous violation, shall be fined not more than $3,000 or ninety days imprisonment, or both. (1) An administrative fine of not more than $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold; (2) Seizure and forfeiture of any taken aquatic life specimens, commercial marine license, vessel, and equipment; and (3) Assessment of administrative fees and costs and attorney's fees and costs. Also note that while they seem to be very generous in allowing collecting fish for aquarium purposes, later in the bill they state "It shall be illegal to sell or offer for sale any fish and other aquatic life taken under an aquarium fish permit." So I can collect fish, but I cannot sell them. And further down in the bill they say that when I do sell fish, the "commercial marine dealer" needs to issue receipts in duplicate. This bill appears, from other information I hae seen, to have been authored by a fellow going by the psuedonym Snorkle Bob. Last year, he had a bill very similar to this one. Take a look in th earchives to find more on that. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:55 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. I found it disturbing when I read that a large proportion of some kinds of fish caught in the wild for the aquarium hobby die during transit. I read the problem is that they sell for so little in stores that it's more cost-effective to save money by shipping them cheaply, even if a lot of them die that way. Because of that, I hesitate to buy wild-caught fish, unless I know they are plentiful in their native habitat. I'm not opposed to the bill as stated below. What are your objections? Don't you think it's irresponsible to take wild fish and handle them so carelessly that the majority of them die? If the people catching them cannot be relied on to use common sense, then don't we need a law to mandate it? If there were tighter regulations on the way fish were handled and shipped maybe so many pet store fish wouldn't die in the stores or when you've just taken them home. I don't know about where you live, but here every fish store, almost every tank has sick or dying fish in it. The big chain stores are worse than the smaller ones, but they're the ones fueling this drop in fish prices that pushes the suppliers to use ever cheaper methods of delivering them. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50332	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

My cory's don't even remember that they laid eggs, right after laying them on the sides of the tank. And will promptly start trying to eat them, LOL. So chances are very good that your Angel's will eat the eggs either off the side of the tank or on ornaments, or eat the fry after they hatch (they are pretty small). My Angel's LOVE fry and will chase after my guppy/platty fry happily. Amber On 2/3/2011 5:09 AM, haecklers wrote: > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > angelfish - they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try > to eat other fish, not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look > fat like they're full of eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish > eat the fry? There's a cave in the tank (half a coconut shell) they > can use - would the parents protect the fry from the angels? > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) > on how to care for the fry. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50333	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Hawaii created a number of marine sanctuaries around several of the islands to be kept from fishing and collecting to help replenish the fish in coastal waters. As populations of fish grow, they move out of the limits of the sanctuary into waters where they can be fished or collected. I have been led to believe, from conversation with people who would know, both in Hawaii, and not, that these sanctuaries have worked very well, perhaps, in some cases, too well. Are these sanctuaries what you are referring to Dawn? Collecting can still be done in many traditional areas, it is just that some have been closed to provide for a higher population of fish over the whole of the coastline. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. There are already laws similar to this in place in Hawaii and they have been in effect for about the last decade. When the current laws were passed the solution for the pet trade was to move their collection spots further out from Hawaiian waters, which reflected a rise in prices on marine fish coming from that area, such as the yellow tang. I still remember the price changes at the store when that happened, the yellow tangs almost doubled in price inside of a week. We also lost availability of a few species, but the impact was mostly felt in higher costs. If this bill passes it isn't going to change much from the way things are now. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50334	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Ray, Remember the Hawaii bill posted and talked about last year. The same whack job appears to be behind this one as well. The bill to which you refer was from the spring of 2009. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:25 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. \\Steve,// Looks like another inane blanket bill meant to further restricting our variety of aquarium fishes, with no real reasonable purpose or need. This would seem to have a similar end result as would the wider-reaching freshwater fishes Bill we had to be concerned about last year. I'm sure you remember Bill -- HR 669, "The Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Preservation Act," which if passed, would have created a (very abbreviated) list of allowable fishes to be owned and those fishes not on that list would have been illegal to own. Did you know the the State of Maine presently has such a law in effect? I was recently discussing Rift Lake Cichlids with a very reputable hobbyist (and member of the East Coast Cichlids Assoc.) from Maine who brought this to my attention (I was not previously aware of it). It appears -- as being similar to the HR 669 Bill -- that the State has established a list of allowable fishes, including Rift Lake Cichlids, which if a hobbyist living in that State is maintaining any species other than what's listed, that they are now going against the law. It's quite ludicrous, as this narrow-minded list may include one particular species found in a certain area of Lake Malawi (for example), which may not be particularly as plentiful as another similar more numerous species also found in that exact same area. This certainly doesn't have conservation in mind at all, not that this is it's purpose, but it takes nothing else into consideration when drawing this list up. As every lake and pond in Maine freezes over during the winter, there's not one single Rift Lake species that could ever live through this season in that State as they evolved in an environment of a rather fixed temperature near 80 o, and have only a very narrow window of range to subsist. Typically, those that draw up this garbage never do research nor do they have the first clue that these fishes could never pose an invasion danger. Ray Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > To: > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@...> > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > More Info > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > >  > > The Issue. > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > The Impact. > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons “exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or “public display” purposes. > > > > For purposes of this act, the term “sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > PIJAC Position. > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > Recommended Action. > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@... > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@... or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50335	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Veggie Fish

Spawn, While goldfish are related to carp, they are not carp. Koi are carp. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john Lewis Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:10 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish Hello: Goldfish, Carp (I know, same thing), Silver Dollars, Morochos, all veggie eaters. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 1:37:44 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish Anand, are you saying that your mom will not allow fish that you feed RAW meat to? Or live foods such as tubifex worms or feeder fish? Some folks feed beef heart or live goldfish to larger fish. Is this what she is concerned with? Or does she not want meat in the flake food? If it is OK to have meat - which most likely would be fish or shrimp in the flake food, your options are many. Most of my fish readily eat flakes or pellets. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 9:33:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Veggie Fish Also flakes are not typically just veggies, they are usually a mixture of fish meal and veggies, and various other ingredients. There are very few veggie only foods (algae wafers being one of them). If your mom insists on only veggies as a food you could get a pleco, they eat algae in your fish tank, and will also eat various blanched veggies and sinking algae wafers, some pleco's require a piece of driftwood to chew on as well. And small freshwater shrimp will also eat these same foods. Amber On 2/2/2011 7:50 PM, Anand Rajamani wrote: > > Hi > My mom wants me to get a fish that only needs > flake foods. Does anyone know a good, nice-looking fish > or crustacean that doesn't need a form of meat? > (or any argument that might change my mother's > mind) > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50336	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Looks like betta nests but I HAVE no bettas!

When the test strips become wet they no longer work properly, but they are also not as accurate as the test kits with liquid reagents and vials. Have you tested your well water to see what it contains as far as chemicals? (by a local water company, or a very accurate piece of equipment). If your well water does not have a lot of heavy metals, and no chlorine/ammonia then you can get away with using no water conditioners. If you have any of those in your well water you will need to find a water conditioner that will work for you. You can get a "starter culture" of bacteria for your filter, it is called Dr. Tim's One and Only. It's a little expensive but well worth it if you have a cycling issue and already bought fish and don't want to mess with daily water changes to keep the ammonia/nitrite levels from becoming toxic to your fish. I recommend doing a filter cleaning, since it was done 2.5 weeks ago. Remove some of your tank water into a bucket and take out the filter cartridge and rinse/swoosh/squeeze it around in this bucket of tank water until it's as clean as you can get it. If the water turns really dark right away I recommend pouring it out and getting some more tank water in the bucket and cleaning the filter cartridge again in this fresher tank water, just to get it cleaner. If you prefer a hang on back filter (HOB) they are perfectly fine for your 10 gallon tank, I use them on my 10 gallons. I plan on getting a sponge filter to use for my shrimp tank next week, but I will still have the HOB running while the sponge filter builds up enough beneficial bacteria. So if you want to switch to a different filter you can put the new one on the tank and leave the old one running for at least a couple weeks before taking the old filter out. OR you can take the sponge media out of the filter you currently have and put it in the new filter somehow, or if it won't fit you can rub the new filter cartridge against the old one and move some of the bacteria over to the new filter. This is how you can quickly get a new colony of nitrifying bacteria growing in a newly set up tank. There will still be a new cycle to go through, but this helps get things started faster. If you add the smaller gravel over the heavier gravel it will slowly sink to the bottom every time you do a gravel cleaning, if you want to remove the larger gravel it will require a little more work. I recommend moving your fish to a large bucket, or a rubbermaid tub (clean of course) with your tank water. Then empty the tank of decorations and begin scooping out the old gravel with a cup. If you have an acrylic tank be careful removing the gravel as acrylic is very easy to scratch up compared to a glass aquarium. Try not to remove all the gravel, as some of your good bacteria is growing in the gravel currently, so if you remove it all it will cause more cycling problems in your tank. You definitely want to do a filter cleaning and a good sized water change for now (try to get your nitrites down to 0 if possible, and I don't see a test for Ammonia, but you probably have some in your water, which can cause the water to look white and cloudy). I think I answered all the questions, let me know if I missed anything :) Amber On 2/3/2011 5:38 AM, mothermastiff wrote: > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > >>There are some water conditioners, like Aqua-Safe, which will > increase the surface tension of the water. If you've recently switched > to this, then perhaps this is the cause. Your Stress Coat which you've > been using may also produce this if you've added too much, as it > contains Aloe-Vera. > > I quit using them, you and others said that fish provide their own > stress coats. <g> In general, with decent un-conditioned natural well > water (comes from deep under granite), I hoped to need few or NO > chemicals. > > >>Other than that, bubbles on the surface can be caused by high > phosphates or other DOS (Dissolved Organic Solids), in which case you > are overfeeding your fish or are using a poor quality dry food. > > OK, so is the test strip type of test adequate? What is the most > effective water testing kit? > > It is hard to be sure of the numbers by looking at colors that are not > an absolutely perfect match (Synesthesia makes me unusually sensitive > to shades of colors and I can differentiate shades others simply > cannot see), but using the Jungle brand Quick Dip, the test strip > appears to be showing the following: > > Nitrate -- ~10 > Nitrite -- ~2.0 > Total hardness -- ~150 > Chlorine -- 0 > Total alkalinity -- 0 > pH -- water damage on chart, definitely over 6.2 but not by a lot, > under 7.8, so on the acidic side, but within the neutral range. > > When I was away for two full weeks (lambs started being born the > morning I was SUPPOSED to leave, and I had to document how to tag and > clean up a newborn more efficiently, and hey, I was really excited > too) I had left food in folded pieces of paper to be fed every three > days. The pet sitter used them and didn't feed from the container of > flakes (he liked the convenience of just pouring the flakes from the > paper, not having to measure.) > > I use the TetraColor flakes, though I need to get more food, as this > is the bottom third of the container and getting down to smaller > pieces. Since I need to buy food, what do you recommend? Tonight at > the meeting someone is bringing live blackworms and offered me some, > so the kids will feast tonight. That's just a treat though, for normal > life, I need a good dry food that is easy to see if it is all being > consumed. Don't care if it is pellets, flakes, or frozen. > > The small pinch of food I give is literally all eaten before it hits > the bottom, which suggests I am not overfeeding. Yet about half the > time, the water does seem a little cloudier for a while after feeding. > > >>it would seem that your water may be less than ideal, but if you've > been making 25% - 30% PWC's (partial water changes) weekly, then your > water should not have deteriorated to this extent in such short of > time. Your tank has been set up now for exactly only one month -- from > January 2nd. In theory, it has not yet completely cycled. > > The pet sitter only added water to offset evaporation while I was gone > (two weeks out of that month) because he was not comfortable making > changes in my absence. In such a small tank, is that the probable > culprit? My house is SO dry, it evaporates really fast. > > When I have to be away so the PWC is a week overdue, is a larger > percent change a good idea? Remembering I have natural well water so > changes are easy. > > >>Get a gravel that has grains about 1/16" in diameter, and when you > do change it, change only 1/2 of the tank at a time, with a two-week > interval to preserve some of your nitrifying bacteria which are > growing outside of your filter. > > Wish I had known that before I bought it. Can the coarser gravel be > used under the new finer gravel I need to go out and get? And how do I > change just half without their mixing? > > Should I leave the old coarse black-painted gravel there and simply > put the finer new stuff on top of it? Being black and natural, they > would not look bad together. Gee, with finer gravel, the frogs > couldn't hide between big pieces of gravel and would be more visible! > So shy.... > > If only you could buy a starter culture of those good bacteria just > like you can buy fresh food! > > >>Trapped and rotting food down in the gravel can cause your water > condition too. > > The only thing I can SEE that rots is the leaves that have broken off > the new plants. The ones with hot pink undersides are so delicate that > when I try to move them, new leaves break off. > > >> Perhaps you could indicate to us just how you go about cleaning > your filter. This may shed some light on your water problem as well. > > Eek, am I supposed to CLEAN the filter? I thought it was supposed to > be building up good bacteria. So, I have not disturbed the filter at all. > > Just before I left, I bought a filter system suitable for a 10-gallon > tank because the one the previous owner had was a 30, suitable for a > larger tank, and the fish were exhausted from swimming so hard just to > stay in place. They are so much calmer now, they must be happier and a > lot more comfortable. > > So, it was a new filter again about 2.5 weeks ago. It did seem to > clear up some of the initial cloudiness. > > It would help to know what brands and models of filtration systems for > a 10-gallon hang OUTSIDE the tank, since this one is so bulky and > intrusive inside a tank that small. The curse of shopping at Wal-Mart, > I guess. One choice per size of tank, if that. > > Thanks, Ray, I need details to form a clear picture. > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > wondering how to do a partial GRAVEL change! > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50337	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I managed to raise some albino aeneus cory's when mine laid eggs several months ago. I keep heavily planted tanks though, so that's probably why I was lucky enough to get 5 babies! LOL. Amber On 2/3/2011 9:29 AM, Laurie Alaimo wrote: > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of > the tank. > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous > place, > some might survive to hatching. > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted > tanks, so > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it > is possible > for some to survive. > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the > cories in a > tank of their own. > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > other fish, > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > full of > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > cave in the > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect > the fry > from the angels? > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) > on how to > care for the fry. > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50338	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Dani, When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before you can even move to get it out. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to answer - I just *had* to ask lol) Thanks, Dani > >From: haecklers <haecklers@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > >Thanks Laurie! > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just >as well! > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: >> >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, >> some might survive to hatching. >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so >> >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is >>possible >> >> for some to survive. >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in >>a >> >> tank of their own. >> My cories do not protect their eggs. >> >> ~ Laurie >> >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: haecklers <haecklers@...> >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? >> >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in the > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry >> from the angels? >> >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how >>to >> >> care for the fry. >>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50339	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filtration, substrate and vitamins

I'm not sure what the tiny white particles are, but they are probably a living organism of some sort. Do your fish try to eat them at all? Do they move on their own, or are they like little pieces of dust floating around in the water? Sand can be used as a substrate, but it requires slightly different care than heavier gravel. It has a tendency to get compacted and can build pockets of anaerobic bacteria when this happens. If you stir the gravel during gravel cleaning this can help eliminate this problem, but you will have to be careful while you're gravel cleaning as it is very easy to suck all the sand up in the gravel vac's if you have too much suction. You can hold the gravel vac tube slightly above the sand and it will pull up all the floaters while you are stirring the sand. Most people with plants tend to avoid small sand gravel as it's too hard to do proper gravel cleaning and not uproot your plants at the same time. Also some sand (such as silica sand) has sharp edges and fish with barbels (such as Cory catfish) can have their barbels worn off from the sharp pieces of sand. Be careful underfeeding your oto, they are easy to starve to death, if there is not enough algae growing in the tank. They are also a schooling type of fish and prefer to be kept in groups of oto's, sometimes it can be hard to keep just a single one alive. I myself have trouble keeping them alive at all, and gave up years ago, I think they don't like my soft water. It's okay to over filter, as long as there isn't too much water current that your fish have trouble swimming. If it looks like that is the problem (with a higher powered filter), and there isn't a knob to turn down the water flow manually, you can add a sponge on the intake tube inside the tank and this will help lower the water flow, but you will have to clean the sponge every couple of days (it will build up food matter and decaying plant matter if you have any dead plant leaves). But the sponge will keep any smaller fish from getting sucked inside if you ever have fry growing in your tank. I have never used liquid vitamins for my fish, so I'm not sure how necessary they are personally. I don't feed live foods, but do occasionally feed frozen foods, or a gel food that I make myself from various types of seafood and veggies (I typically use the freezer burnt stuff so it doesn't go to waste and just get thrown away). The gel food can be a pain to make if you're not good with gelatin (and I'm not! LOL), but if you're familiar with making jello you can probably manage making gel food for your fish, mine go crazy for the stuff. Amber On 2/3/2011 10:06 AM, judith wrote: > > I have a 26 gal tank and have 30 gal and 10 gal hang on filters with > the filter pads and a small net of ceramic beads in each. They have > the bio wheels. Also, I have a mix of gravel and florite for plants as > a substrate. There are tiny white particles that look like dust > floating in the water. I added the 10 gal hang on filter hoping it > would help take care of the floating matter. This has not happened. > The filters are the marineland filters that take the rite size A and B > filters. I change the filters once a month and clean them once a week > when I do a PWC. I also clean the boxes and inspect the impellers once > a month. > What I would like to know: Would a sand substrate be better? I like > the looks of the sand and would like to go to this type of substrate. > The other thing is the type of filter. I read about canister filters > and like the marineland canister filter system. But it says it is for > up to 100 gal. Would this be too much for my 26 gal? Or is there such > a thing as too much filtration? > About the vitamins...is this a good thing or not? There is a liquid > vitamin that you can put directly into the water or mix it with the > food. I think my fish need vitamins as I don't feed live food or > frozen food. I try very hard not to over feed now, but I think I am > feeding too little now. I feed them once a day some freeze dried > shrimp cubes,(a little pinch off of the cube) a half of an algae wafer > broke up and scattered and sinking cichlid food. > I have 2 adult cichlids, 3 young cichlids, 2 glowlight tetras, one oto > and one rubber lipped pleco in this tank. Also an algae ball and a > banana plant. The rest of the plants are fake. > Thanks to all for your very informative posts! I love this site! > I am making a list of things I need for my 2.5 gal for a walstahd > planted tank. It is exciting to see planted tanks. I hope I can > achieve a planted tank that is healthy and beautiful! > Judy > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50340	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

The ancistrus grow very slowly. Mine are *counts* gee several months old, and most of them are around an inch long now. So yours are probably 2-3 month old depending on how often you do water changes (this will make them grow faster if you keep the hormones from getting to high with regular water changes). I do a water change every few days with all my baby BN pleco's. I have at least 20 in my 55 gallon, and I've noticed some in my 125 gallon that are much smaller than the ones in my 55 gallon. They tend to stay in the cave with dad for at least a month before they start to venture out at all. I read on a site that the males tend to stay in the cave longer than the females, but this isn't always true with all the babies. My BN pleco's don't eat any of my plants, but I keep them well fed with algae wafers and squash/zucchini. Amber On 2/3/2011 11:42 AM, haecklers wrote: > > Thanks Laurie! > > Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > fry together as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all > the sites I'm seeing are saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I > must have been reading about some other kind of fish! LOL! I have no > available tanks and if I did I've got fish that need more room (like > 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just as well! > > My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about > half the leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank > is no longer! I'm feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and > hoping my plants will pull through. It's not that I ignore that tank, > there's a cave in there and all the babies were retreating to it > during the day and just coming out at night. I blamed the one female > that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now the fry are > 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of > the tank. > > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous > place, > > some might survive to hatching. > > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > planted tanks, so > > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it > is possible > > for some to survive. > > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the > cories in a > > tank of their own. > > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > angelfish - > > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > other fish, > > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > full of > > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > cave in the > > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect > the fry > > from the angels? > > > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > breeders!) on how to > > care for the fry. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50341	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Also once they are removed from their siblings they cannot just be put back safely, often times they will fight each other right away if you try to put them back together after being separated. I have 4 females that are all siblings in my 125 gallon tank, and they occasionally will chase each other, but for the most part they ignore each other most of the time. I have another female by herself in another tank, I didn't want to chance putting her in with the other females and have them kill her :( Amber On 2/3/2011 4:22 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Dani, > > When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression > they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a > stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before > you can even move to get it out. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a > 10-gal > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more > than one > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't > have to > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > Thanks, > Dani > > > > >From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > >Thanks Laurie! > > > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > fry together > >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm > seeing are > >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading > about some > >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've > got fish > >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess > it's just > >as well! > > > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about > half the > >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no > longer! I'm > >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants > will pull > >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there > and all the > >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at > night. I > >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and > removed her. Now > >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > <environmom95112@...> wrote: > >> > >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of > the tank. > > >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less > conspicuous place, > >> some might survive to hatching. > >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > planted tanks, so > >> > >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess > it is > >>possible > >> > >> for some to survive. > >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put > the cories in > >>a > >> > >> tank of their own. > >> My cories do not protect their eggs. > >> > >> ~ Laurie > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > >> > >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > angelfish - > >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > other fish, > > >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > full of > >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > cave in the > > > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents > protect the fry > >> from the angels? > >> > >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > breeders!) on how > >>to > >> > >> care for the fry. > >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50342	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Considering a new filter and want to hear thoughts about it

I'm looking at getting a home made sponge type filter on aquabid, I was hoping some of you guys might have already purchased one from this seller and have thoughts/comments about it you might want to share. Or if you haven't purchased one and have a thought/comment you want to share that's cool too, LOL. http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?filteration&1297120802 <http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?filteration&1297120802> Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50343	From: pabickwermert	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Can one beta live with other types of fish?

First, I am new to fairly new to the group so i thought I would ask a question and tell you a little about my tank and fish. Can a a single beta live with other types of fish? I have my new (to me, actually used) 55 gallon tank setup (used to be a 35) and I wanted to have a little more variety/color. At the moment, I have 2 fancytail ryukin goldfish, 1 lionhead goldfish (triangular tail and no dorsil fin), 2 small golden loaches (very entertaining fish), 3 black mollies, 3 starburst mollies, and a little frog. With the goldfish (orange and silver/white) and the starburst mollies (orange and black), I have a little color swimming around. The 1 loach is only 1.5 inches long and its color is pinkish. The other loach is 2.5 inches long and it is pinkish also. The 3 black mollies are black. ;-) and the 3 starburst mollies are orange with black tails. My grandkids gave us the ryukin and the frog and that is how all this started. Them my grandkids (won) 2 goldfish at the fair but they were the kind that get 14-18 inches long so I gave them to a friend that has a goldfish pond. I purchased another ryukin and the lionhead to replace the two I gave away without them knowing. These two fish are only supposed to get around 6 inches long. That is much better for an indoor tank. My wife wanted the mollies but I was able to talk her into getting two different types so we would have more variety. I wanted the loaches. I had purchased one this summer but it had jumped out of the tank and when we found it, it was almost dead. We put it back in the tank. It was breathing and swimming a bit but it did not last the night. That fish was so fun to watch that I had to get a replacement. It took over 6 weeks to find one so I bought 2 when I had them brought back from Indianapolis Indiana. I also have one lily bulb and 3 other plant bulbs (I forgot what kind but they look like long grass). One thing I noticed since I setup the new tank is that my heater can not keep up. Does anyone have a tank heater that they do not need anymore? Any size would help. My tank is 70-72 based on the int tank thermometer. I am open to any suggestions and thank you in advance for the help. Paul

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50344	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

We've got some males in a divided part hanging on the back of the tank. Once two jumped into the main tank and they only attacked each other (they had been next to each other for several weeks, but divided so they could only see each other!). Another male just jumped into the main tank. He was bigger than the rest and in the couple of hours he was out he managed to bite chunks out of many of the other fish's tails/fins but had no bites on himself at all. BTW, I have a theory about why sometimes fry are missing ventral fins - I've watched several bettas become ventral biters - they aim for the ventrals and lunge and if the other fish isn't quick enough they'll bite them right off! Both times I've seen it, it's been a female (fat one, too) that was doing it. I don't think it was aggression as much as just eating - and they're well-fed so they weren't driven by hunger, either! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Also once they are removed from their siblings they cannot just be put > back safely, often times they will fight each other right away if you > try to put them back together after being separated. I have 4 females > that are all siblings in my 125 gallon tank, and they occasionally will > chase each other, but for the most part they ignore each other most of > the time. I have another female by herself in another tank, I didn't > want to chance putting her in with the other females and have them kill > her :( > > Amber > > On 2/3/2011 4:22 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > Dani, > > > > When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression > > they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a > > stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before > > you can even move to get it out. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a > > 10-gal > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more > > than one > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't > > have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > >From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > >Thanks Laurie! > > > > > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > > fry together > > >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm > > seeing are > > >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading > > about some > > >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've > > got fish > > >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess > > it's just > > >as well! > > > > > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about > > half the > > >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no > > longer! I'm > > >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants > > will pull > > >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there > > and all the > > >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at > > night. I > > >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and > > removed her. Now > > >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > > <environmom95112@> wrote: > > >> > > >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of > > the tank. > > > > >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > > >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less > > conspicuous place, > > >> some might survive to hatching. > > >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > > planted tanks, so > > >> > > >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess > > it is > > >>possible > > >> > > >> for some to survive. > > >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put > > the cories in > > >>a > > >> > > >> tank of their own. > > >> My cories do not protect their eggs. > > >> > > >> ~ Laurie > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > >> > > >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > > angelfish - > > >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > > other fish, > > > > >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > > full of > > >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > > cave in the > > > > > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents > > protect the fry > > >> from the angels? > > >> > > >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > > breeders!) on how > > >>to > > >> > > >> care for the fry. > > >> > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50345	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filtration, substrate and vitamins

Thanks, Amber. Those are the things I wanted to know. My Oto was given to me free when I bought a very beautiful female guppy from a little fish store in Tulsa. I didn't even know what it was but I said sure I'll take it! It has been in my tank almost from the start. it has never been sick and a lot of the time I have to hunt for it because he stays hidden. I found a picture on Dr.s Foster and Smith and that is how I identified it. I think I will stay with my gravel and stay with my current filtration for now. I was reading about african rift lake cichlids and was surprised to see that they like high ph. I have 8.0 ph. Now I just have to talk the husband into a bigger tank! Thanks, Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:31:22 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filtration, substrate and vitamins I'm not sure what the tiny white particles are, but they are probably a living organism of some sort. Do your fish try to eat them at all? Do they move on their own, or are they like little pieces of dust floating around in the water? Sand can be used as a substrate, but it requires slightly different care than heavier gravel. It has a tendency to get compacted and can build pockets of anaerobic bacteria when this happens. If you stir the gravel during gravel cleaning this can help eliminate this problem, but you will have to be careful while you're gravel cleaning as it is very easy to suck all the sand up in the gravel vac's if you have too much suction. You can hold the gravel vac tube slightly above the sand and it will pull up all the floaters while you are stirring the sand. Most people with plants tend to avoid small sand gravel as it's too hard to do proper gravel cleaning and not uproot your plants at the same time. Also some sand (such as silica sand) has sharp edges and fish with barbels (such as Cory catfish) can have their barbels worn off from the sharp pieces of sand. Be careful underfeeding your oto, they are easy to starve to death, if there is not enough algae growing in the tank. They are also a schooling type of fish and prefer to be kept in groups of oto's, sometimes it can be hard to keep just a single one alive. I myself have trouble keeping them alive at all, and gave up years ago, I think they don't like my soft water. It's okay to over filter, as long as there isn't too much water current that your fish have trouble swimming. If it looks like that is the problem (with a higher powered filter), and there isn't a knob to turn down the water flow manually, you can add a sponge on the intake tube inside the tank and this will help lower the water flow, but you will have to clean the sponge every couple of days (it will build up food matter and decaying plant matter if you have any dead plant leaves). But the sponge will keep any smaller fish from getting sucked inside if you ever have fry growing in your tank. I have never used liquid vitamins for my fish, so I'm not sure how necessary they are personally. I don't feed live foods, but do occasionally feed frozen foods, or a gel food that I make myself from various types of seafood and veggies (I typically use the freezer burnt stuff so it doesn't go to waste and just get thrown away). The gel food can be a pain to make if you're not good with gelatin (and I'm not! LOL), but if you're familiar with making jello you can probably manage making gel food for your fish, mine go crazy for the stuff. Amber On 2/3/2011 10:06 AM, judith wrote: > > I have a 26 gal tank and have 30 gal and 10 gal hang on filters with > the filter pads and a small net of ceramic beads in each. They have > the bio wheels. Also, I have a mix of gravel and florite for plants as > a substrate. There are tiny white particles that look like dust > floating in the water. I added the 10 gal hang on filter hoping it > would help take care of the floating matter. This has not happened. > The filters are the marineland filters that take the rite size A and B > filters. I change the filters once a month and clean them once a week > when I do a PWC. I also clean the boxes and inspect the impellers once > a month. > What I would like to know: Would a sand substrate be better? I like > the looks of the sand and would like to go to this type of substrate. > The other thing is the type of filter. I read about canister filters > and like the marineland canister filter system. But it says it is for > up to 100 gal. Would this be too much for my 26 gal? Or is there such > a thing as too much filtration? > About the vitamins...is this a good thing or not? There is a liquid > vitamin that you can put directly into the water or mix it with the > food. I think my fish need vitamins as I don't feed live food or > frozen food. I try very hard not to over feed now, but I think I am > feeding too little now. I feed them once a day some freeze dried > shrimp cubes,(a little pinch off of the cube) a half of an algae wafer > broke up and scattered and sinking cichlid food. > I have 2 adult cichlids, 3 young cichlids, 2 glowlight tetras, one oto > and one rubber lipped pleco in this tank. Also an algae ball and a > banana plant. The rest of the plants are fake. > Thanks to all for your very informative posts! I love this site! > I am making a list of things I need for my 2.5 gal for a walstahd > planted tank. It is exciting to see planted tanks. I hope I can > achieve a planted tank that is healthy and beautiful! > Judy > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50346	From: haecklers	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping bettas together! We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish and later found out they were females. They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > Thanks, > DaniÂ

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50347	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Can one beta live with other types of fish?

Goldfish are actually coldwater fish, and your mollies prefer salt in their water (goldfish do not!), so they're not really that compatible of fish. Your mollies may not live a full life span with no salt in their water, and your goldfish won't tolerate much salt in their water. You might want to decide if you want cold water fish, or fish that don't mind some salt in their water and re-home whichever fishes you decide. Goldfish are thicker bodied and create a lot of waste from all that food they eat, so you can't keep as many goldfish in that tank as you could smaller, thinner bodied, fish. And yes, a beta can typically live with other tropical fish (not cold water fish), I wouldn't recommend one with your current setup, the mollies might nip at his fins and so may the goldfish. With a male beta it's better to have slow moving non fin nipping fish, as their fins can quickly become a snack to nippy fish ;) Amber On 2/3/2011 6:21 PM, pabickwermert wrote: > > First, I am new to fairly new to the group so i thought I would ask a > question and tell you a little about my tank and fish. > > Can a a single beta live with other types of fish? > > I have my new (to me, actually used) 55 gallon tank setup (used to be > a 35) and I wanted to have a little more variety/color. > > At the moment, I have 2 fancytail ryukin goldfish, 1 lionhead goldfish > (triangular tail and no dorsil fin), 2 small golden loaches (very > entertaining fish), 3 black mollies, 3 starburst mollies, and a little > frog. > > With the goldfish (orange and silver/white) and the starburst mollies > (orange and black), I have a little color swimming around. The 1 loach > is only 1.5 inches long and its color is pinkish. The other loach is > 2.5 inches long and it is pinkish also. The 3 black mollies are black. > ;-) and the 3 starburst mollies are orange with black tails. > > My grandkids gave us the ryukin and the frog and that is how all this > started. Them my grandkids (won) 2 goldfish at the fair but they were > the kind that get 14-18 inches long so I gave them to a friend that > has a goldfish pond. I purchased another ryukin and the lionhead to > replace the two I gave away without them knowing. These two fish are > only supposed to get around 6 inches long. That is much better for an > indoor tank. > > My wife wanted the mollies but I was able to talk her into getting two > different types so we would have more variety. > > I wanted the loaches. I had purchased one this summer but it had > jumped out of the tank and when we found it, it was almost dead. We > put it back in the tank. It was breathing and swimming a bit but it > did not last the night. That fish was so fun to watch that I had to > get a replacement. It took over 6 weeks to find one so I bought 2 when > I had them brought back from Indianapolis Indiana. > > I also have one lily bulb and 3 other plant bulbs (I forgot what kind > but they look like long grass). > > One thing I noticed since I setup the new tank is that my heater can > not keep up. > > Does anyone have a tank heater that they do not need anymore? Any size > would help. > > My tank is 70-72 based on the int tank thermometer. > > I am open to any suggestions and thank you in advance for the help. > > Paul > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50348	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/3/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?

While we're talking about betta's... I was curious how betta's react to small shrimp? I'm assuming they'd be a tasty snack, but I'd rather not find out the hard way ;) LOL. Amber On 2/3/2011 6:02 PM, haecklers wrote: > > We've got some males in a divided part hanging on the back of the > tank. Once two jumped into the main tank and they only attacked each > other (they had been next to each other for several weeks, but divided > so they could only see each other!). Another male just jumped into the > main tank. He was bigger than the rest and in the couple of hours he > was out he managed to bite chunks out of many of the other fish's > tails/fins but had no bites on himself at all. > > BTW, I have a theory about why sometimes fry are missing ventral fins > - I've watched several bettas become ventral biters - they aim for the > ventrals and lunge and if the other fish isn't quick enough they'll > bite them right off! Both times I've seen it, it's been a female (fat > one, too) that was doing it. I don't think it was aggression as much > as just eating - and they're well-fed so they weren't driven by > hunger, either! > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Also once they are removed from their siblings they cannot just be put > > back safely, often times they will fight each other right away if you > > try to put them back together after being separated. I have 4 females > > that are all siblings in my 125 gallon tank, and they occasionally will > > chase each other, but for the most part they ignore each other most of > > the time. I have another female by herself in another tank, I didn't > > want to chance putting her in with the other females and have them kill > > her :( > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/3/2011 4:22 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > Dani, > > > > > > When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression > > > they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a > > > stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before > > > you can even move to get it out. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown > > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a > > > 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more > > > than one > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't > > > have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > >From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks Laurie! > > > > > > > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > > > fry together > > > >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm > > > seeing are > > > >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading > > > about some > > > >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've > > > got fish > > > >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess > > > it's just > > > >as well! > > > > > > > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about > > > half the > > > >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no > > > longer! I'm > > > >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants > > > will pull > > > >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there > > > and all the > > > >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at > > > night. I > > > >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and > > > removed her. Now > > > >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > > > <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the > side of > > > the tank. > > > > > > >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the > cories > > > >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less > > > conspicuous place, > > > >> some might survive to hatching. > > > >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > > > planted tanks, so > > > >> > > > >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess > > > it is > > > >>possible > > > >> > > > >> for some to survive. > > > >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put > > > the cories in > > > >>a > > > >> > > > >> tank of their own. > > > >> My cories do not protect their eggs. > > > >> > > > >> ~ Laurie > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > >> > > > >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > > > angelfish - > > > >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > > > other fish, > > > > > > >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > > > full of > > > >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > > > cave in the > > > > > > > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents > > > protect the fry > > > >> from the angels? > > > >> > > > >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > > > breeders!) on how > > > >>to > > > >> > > > >> care for the fry. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50349	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Aquarium prices and LFS

Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50350	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

That is absolutely amazing. I've never had any fish reproduce in any of my tanks before. I often read where some people work on it and others who must have had just the right conditions and get an unexpected surprise in seeing new life in their tanks. I've only managed to buy a prego fish from a wally world for one of the kids a long time ago. It was a molly or guppy or something like that. A friend of mine does zero water changes, cleans the filter once a week, and has giant happy goldfish that started out very small. They spawned a ton of times, live in a giant tank and have names. She keeps giving the babies away. Its amazing. :) Thanks for indulging my curiosity. Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 01:47:33 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping bettas together! We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish and later found out they were females. They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" +��bettas in a��10-gal > tank?��Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > Thanks, > Dani�� [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50351	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

I've set up my 75 gallon freshwater tank 3 times as I've moved and I find it only takes about 4 weeks after I get zebras to start adding other fish - I've never had medical issues in the tank - the key I think is to not overcrowd ever Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dani" <dbrown1973@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 08:16:22 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50352	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Can one beta live with other types of fish?

The definitive answer to your question about bettas being able to live with other fish is a definite it depends. In your current situation, the answer is no, they cannot. Amber already touched on some of the reasons,. Mollies prefer a temperature of about 78°F. The maximum temperature for long term care of goldfish would be your current range of 71-72°F. They would prefer it a bit cooler. Also, you have 3 goldfish in a 55 gallon tank, when they, and they alone, would be much better off in a 90 gallon tank or even larger. Goldfish are what we refer to as a dirty fish. They produce a lot of ammonia, and that alone is a reason for a higher water volume, but they also produce a larger amount of other compounds such as hormones, solid waste, etc. all of which can tax a tank of smaller water volume unless water changes are done on a regular schedule of several times a week. The varieties of goldfish you have should live for more than 20 years, and it is not likely they will do so in their current environment. At this lower temperature, mollies are more susceptible to disease and will also have a shorter life span than they would if properly housed. I am not as familiar with the loaches you have, and not familiar at all with the frog you are keeping. Others would be more qualified to step in with the particular care these animals would do best with. Amber is right about the salt content of the water for the mollies, to a certain extent. Most mollies come from waters that range from completely fresh to totally marine, and may change their location with regard to the salt content of the water. However, most mollies today are produced in waters that do not contain any salts, and therefore may be kept in a salt free environment, but even they may do better with a minimal amount of salt added. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pabickwermert Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 10:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Can one beta live with other types of fish? First, I am new to fairly new to the group so i thought I would ask a question and tell you a little about my tank and fish. Can a a single beta live with other types of fish? I have my new (to me, actually used) 55 gallon tank setup (used to be a 35) and I wanted to have a little more variety/color. At the moment, I have 2 fancytail ryukin goldfish, 1 lionhead goldfish (triangular tail and no dorsil fin), 2 small golden loaches (very entertaining fish), 3 black mollies, 3 starburst mollies, and a little frog. With the goldfish (orange and silver/white) and the starburst mollies (orange and black), I have a little color swimming around. The 1 loach is only 1.5 inches long and its color is pinkish. The other loach is 2.5 inches long and it is pinkish also. The 3 black mollies are black. ;-) and the 3 starburst mollies are orange with black tails. My grandkids gave us the ryukin and the frog and that is how all this started. Them my grandkids (won) 2 goldfish at the fair but they were the kind that get 14-18 inches long so I gave them to a friend that has a goldfish pond. I purchased another ryukin and the lionhead to replace the two I gave away without them knowing. These two fish are only supposed to get around 6 inches long. That is much better for an indoor tank. My wife wanted the mollies but I was able to talk her into getting two different types so we would have more variety. I wanted the loaches. I had purchased one this summer but it had jumped out of the tank and when we found it, it was almost dead. We put it back in the tank. It was breathing and swimming a bit but it did not last the night. That fish was so fun to watch that I had to get a replacement. It took over 6 weeks to find one so I bought 2 when I had them brought back from Indianapolis Indiana. I also have one lily bulb and 3 other plant bulbs (I forgot what kind but they look like long grass). One thing I noticed since I setup the new tank is that my heater can not keep up. Does anyone have a tank heater that they do not need anymore? Any size would help. My tank is 70-72 based on the int tank thermometer. I am open to any suggestions and thank you in advance for the help. Paul

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50353	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

were do you live i might be able to take a male ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping bettas together! We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish and later found out they were females. They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > Thanks, > Dani [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50354	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Used tanks are great (look for no scratches) and I like to pay $1 per gallon for the tank-only. For stands and other equipment, I'd pay 50% of the new purchase price if the item was nearly new and go less than 50% if the item was older and/or showing some wear. Purchase test kits and cycle the tank with ammonia (not fish). Buy your fish from the LFS or online and avoid the sick/dying fish entirely. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duffy928542002@... Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:20 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS I've set up my 75 gallon freshwater tank 3 times as I've moved and I find it only takes about 4 weeks after I get zebras to start adding other fish - I've never had medical issues in the tank - the key I think is to not overcrowd ever Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dani" <dbrown1973@... <mailto:dbrown1973%40ymail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 08:16:22 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53 <http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquariu m&catAbb=sss.> &subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50355	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH

Mr. Deenerz: Please excuse me for the exclamation point at the end of my request....I did not see it as a demand but an request!!!! THANK YOU for the information on how to subscribe to the Tropical Fish Hobbyist.....I appreciate your help VERY MUCH!!! (that is the point again LOL) I hope that someday, someway I may also be able to supply with some needed information. THANK YOU.................... Daniel Gorham Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Wed, 2/2/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, February 2, 2011, 6:19 PM � Dax, Adding an exclamation point comes across as a demand. If that is the case please keep in mind no one here is paid to provide anything. Everyone here is a volunteer. I took two minutes out of my dinner break at work on a search engine and came up with your answer. TFH Magazine, 1 TFH Plz, 3rd & Union Avenues, Neptune City, NJ 07753 Located on the page below from their TFH web site. http://www.tfhmagazine.com/subscriptions/missing-issues-claim.php -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 2:59 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH Again may I ask if someone could supply me with the mailing addres to the "Tropical Fish Hobbyist" PLEASE! Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> wrote: From: Dax Gorham <daxgor@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 6:07 PM   What is the mailing address of the Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine please?  I would like to subscribe. Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 1/31/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine----TFH To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:12 AM   Hi Everyone, It seems that not a week goes by that our contributing authors write up something or try to answer questions about new tank syndrome, ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite and what’s going on inside a newly established aquarium and also what can happen in an older one if it is left go and not properly maintained. To that end, TFH magazine for the month of February has a very good article about this very point. Sara Jackson’s article “Keeping Up with Nitrate on page 84, gives a very good account of what goes on inside an Aquarium. Even if you do not subscribe to this magazine, picking up this copy of it for your own information to have on hand is worth the purchase price alone. Bill [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50356	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Take Two, They're Small ! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers haecklers@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping > bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish > and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50357	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Thank you. A very good guideline. Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 07:42:39 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Used tanks are great (look for no scratches) and I like to pay $1 per gallon for the tank-only. For stands and other equipment, I'd pay 50% of the new purchase price if the item was nearly new and go less than 50% if the item was older and/or showing some wear. Purchase test kits and cycle the tank with ammonia (not fish). Buy your fish from the LFS or online and avoid the sick/dying fish entirely. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of duffy928542002@... Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:20 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS I've set up my 75 gallon freshwater tank 3 times as I've moved and I find it only takes about 4 weeks after I get zebras to start adding other fish - I've never had medical issues in the tank - the key I think is to not overcrowd ever Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dani" <dbrown1973@... <mailto:dbrown1973%40ymail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 08:16:22 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53 <http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquariu m&catAbb=sss.> &subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50358	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I would like to try raising some cory fry, and I have an empty 10 gallon, but all of my space is filled! I look at the eggs as a very nutritious, fresh, and free fish food. Congrats on the pleco babies! I do not know how old 3/4 fry would be. Where did you learn about betta colors? I have no idea what type/color mine are, just that I am obsessed with how beautiful they are. Other than the challenge of breeding Scarlet Badis, Bettas are an addiction for me lol. When I go to buy cat food at Petco, it takes great discipline on my part to not come home with more Bettas. Sometimes that is not enough ;) ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 12:42:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Thanks Laurie! Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just as well! My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, > some might survive to hatching. > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so > > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is >possible > > for some to survive. > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in >a > > tank of their own. > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in >the > > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry > from the angels? > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how >to > > care for the fry. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >-> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50359	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Was cory fry - now Bettas Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Years ago I raised a batch of bettas. I had an empty 40 gallon, and ended up keeping 20 of the bettas in there. They got along great, and what a sight that tank was. They were all a deep blue color, males and females. No aggression at all. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 4:45:48 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Take Two, They're Small ! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers haecklers@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping > bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish > and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50360	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

> Did you know the the State of Maine presently has such a law in effect? I > was recently discussing Rift Lake Cichlids with a very reputable hobbyist > (and member of the East Coast Cichlids Assoc.) from Maine who brought this > to my attention (I was not previously aware of it). It appears -- as being > similar to the HR 669 Bill -- that the State has established a list of > allowable fishes, including Rift Lake Cichlids, which if a hobbyist living > in that State is maintaining any species other than what's listed, that they > are now going against the law. It's quite ludicrous, as this narrow-minded > list may include one particular species found in a certain area of Lake > Malawi (for example), which may not be particularly as plentiful as another > similar more numerous species also found in that exact same area. Ray, I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those fish that do not need permits to import. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50361	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?

Amber, They actively hunt baby shrimp, and a few really "tough" guys will harass larger shrimp, but they don't do much damage. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:18:22 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ? While we're talking about betta's... I was curious how betta's react to small shrimp? I'm assuming they'd be a tasty snack, but I'd rather not find out the hard way ;) LOL. Amber On 2/3/2011 6:02 PM, haecklers wrote: > > We've got some males in a divided part hanging on the back of the > tank. Once two jumped into the main tank and they only attacked each > other (they had been next to each other for several weeks, but divided > so they could only see each other!). Another male just jumped into the > main tank. He was bigger than the rest and in the couple of hours he > was out he managed to bite chunks out of many of the other fish's > tails/fins but had no bites on himself at all. > > BTW, I have a theory about why sometimes fry are missing ventral fins > - I've watched several bettas become ventral biters - they aim for the > ventrals and lunge and if the other fish isn't quick enough they'll > bite them right off! Both times I've seen it, it's been a female (fat > one, too) that was doing it. I don't think it was aggression as much > as just eating - and they're well-fed so they weren't driven by > hunger, either! > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Also once they are removed from their siblings they cannot just be put > > back safely, often times they will fight each other right away if you > > try to put them back together after being separated. I have 4 females > > that are all siblings in my 125 gallon tank, and they occasionally will > > chase each other, but for the most part they ignore each other most of > > the time. I have another female by herself in another tank, I didn't > > want to chance putting her in with the other females and have them kill > > her :( > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/3/2011 4:22 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > Dani, > > > > > > When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression > > > they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a > > > stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before > > > you can even move to get it out. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown > > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a > > > 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more > > > than one > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't > > > have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > >From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks Laurie! > > > > > > > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > > > fry together > > > >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm > > > seeing are > > > >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading > > > about some > > > >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've > > > got fish > > > >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess > > > it's just > > > >as well! > > > > > > > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about > > > half the > > > >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no > > > longer! I'm > > > >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants > > > will pull > > > >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there > > > and all the > > > >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at > > > night. I > > > >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and > > > removed her. Now > > > >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > > > <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the > side of > > > the tank. > > > > > > >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the > cories > > > >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less > > > conspicuous place, > > > >> some might survive to hatching. > > > >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > > > planted tanks, so > > > >> > > > >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess > > > it is > > > >>possible > > > >> > > > >> for some to survive. > > > >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put > > > the cories in > > > >>a > > > >> > > > >> tank of their own. > > > >> My cories do not protect their eggs. > > > >> > > > >> ~ Laurie > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ________________________________ > > > >> From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > >> > > > >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > > > angelfish - > > > >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > > > other fish, > > > > > > >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're > > > full of > > > >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a > > > cave in the > > > > > > > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents > > > protect the fry > > > >> from the angels? > > > >> > > > >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > > > breeders!) on how > > > >>to > > > >> > > > >> care for the fry. > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50362	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?

I put one of my betta fry in my red cherry shrimp tank. It stayed fat in there and didn't seem to need me to feed it. There were lots of planaria worms in there so I thought he was cleaning up for me. But came the day the worms ran out and I started finding legless shrimp on the floor of the tank, dead. He was small still so he didn't eat the whole shrimp but ate the poor things' legs off! ACK! Maybe before that he was eating the baby shrimp that I didn't know were in there - it's a heavily planted tank. In my community tanks, tho, they live with ghost shrimp and get along really well. I've put baby marmokrebs in the betta fry tank and they went after their "wiggly parts" - legs and antenna, at first but quickly gave up on that and leave them alone now. The baby marmokrebs are only slightly larger than the red cherry shrimp. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > While we're talking about betta's... I was curious how betta's react to > small shrimp? I'm assuming they'd be a tasty snack, but I'd rather not > find out the hard way ;) LOL. > > Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50363	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: New to Group

Good Morning all, I joined the group yesterday. I've lived here in Maine most all my life except for a 28 year tour in the Navy. I just throw out my old stereo system, which gave me lots of room. I'm interested in setting up a marine aquarium and its been a few years since I had an aquarium of any type. So any pointers are welcome including books to read. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50364	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

If you want to have baby fish, I recommend setting up a tank of convict cichlids! They're great parents and it's really cute to see mom and dad watching over and feeding their swarm of babies! They say to start out with 5 babies and let them grow up together, and you'll get one or two pairs - as soon as one pair breeds catch the rest and give them away or they'll get beaten on by the new parents who are very protective. They dig around in the substrate to find stuff for their fry to eat and herd them here and there. Next to guppies they are the easiest fish to breed, some say all you need is two fish and a bucket of water! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dani" <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > That is absolutely amazing. I've never had any fish reproduce in any of my tanks before. I often read where some people work on it and others who must have had just the right conditions and get an unexpected surprise in seeing new life in their tanks. I've only managed to buy a prego fish from a wally world for one of the kids a long time ago. It was a molly or guppy or something like that. A friend of mine does zero water changes, cleans the filter once a week, and has giant happy goldfish that started out very small. They spawned a ton of times, live in a giant tank and have names. She keeps giving the babies away. Its amazing. :) Thanks for indulging my curiosity. Dani > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 01:47:33 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@> wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50365	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

BettySplendens is a wonderful, informative site about betta fish. Here's a link to their article on betta colors and genetics: http://bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=895 There are a couple other articles that are longer and go more in-depth. That are also pretty good. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > I would like to try raising some cory fry, and I have an empty 10 gallon, but > all of my space is filled! I look at the eggs as a very nutritious, fresh, and > free fish food. > > Congrats on the pleco babies! I do not know how old 3/4 fry would be. > > Where did you learn about betta colors? I have no idea what type/color mine > are, just that I am obsessed with how beautiful they are. Other than the > challenge of breeding Scarlet Badis, Bettas are an addiction for me lol. When I > go to buy cat food at Petco, it takes great discipline on my part to not come > home with more Bettas. Sometimes that is not enough ;) > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 12:42:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Thanks Laurie! > > Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together > as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are > saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some > other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish > that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just > as well! > > My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the > leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm > feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull > through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the > babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I > blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now > the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. > > > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, > > some might survive to hatching. > > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so > > > > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is > >possible > > > > for some to survive. > > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in > >a > > > > tank of their own. > > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - > > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, > > > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of > > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in > >the > > > > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry > > from the angels? > > > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how > >to > > > > care for the fry. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > >-> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50366	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be all right i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish in my five gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in beside a jar. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Take Two, They're Small ! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers haecklers@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping > bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish > and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50367	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

\\Steve//, Yes, the HR 669 Bill, that's right -- the Spring of 2009 -- just what I meant -- by "last year" (I still can't get used to this being 2011). I see you remembered it. Actually, I can't get used to this being the 21st century; it's like I'm expecting to see Buck Rodgers or Flash Gordon < g > any time now (for those not familiar with those names, these "future pioneers" were fictitional space travels in the movies and on TV long before Capt. James T. Kirk commanded the starship Enterprise on Star Trek). Lacking any obvious research, the Bill was yet another piece of an inept ludicrous proposal of legislature by a small group of self-serving individuals who refused to offer or receive any opinion from the hobby's stance. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > Remember the Hawaii bill posted and talked about last year. The same whack job appears to be behind this one as well. > > The bill to which you refer was from the spring of 2009. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:25 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > \\Steve,// > > Looks like another inane blanket bill meant to further restricting our variety of aquarium fishes, with no real reasonable purpose or need. This would seem to have a similar end result as would the wider-reaching freshwater fishes Bill we had to be concerned about last year. I'm sure you remember Bill -- HR 669, "The Nonnative Wildlife Invasion Preservation Act," which if passed, would have created a (very abbreviated) list of allowable fishes to be owned and those fishes not on that list would have been illegal to own. > > Did you know the the State of Maine presently has such a law in effect? I was recently discussing Rift Lake Cichlids with a very reputable hobbyist (and member of the East Coast Cichlids Assoc.) from Maine who brought this to my attention (I was not previously aware of it). It appears -- as being similar to the HR 669 Bill -- that the State has established a list of allowable fishes, including Rift Lake Cichlids, which if a hobbyist living in that State is maintaining any species other than what's listed, that they are now going against the law. It's quite ludicrous, as this narrow-minded list may include one particular species found in a certain area of Lake Malawi (for example), which may not be particularly as plentiful as another similar more numerous species also found in that exact same area. > > This certainly doesn't have conservation in mind at all, not that this is it's purpose, but it takes nothing else into consideration when drawing this list up. As every lake and pond in Maine freezes over during the winter, there's not one single Rift Lake species that could ever live through this season in that State as they evolved in an environment of a rather fixed temperature near 80 o, and have only a very narrow window of range to subsist. Typically, those that draw up this garbage never do research nor do they have the first clue that these fishes could never pose an invasion danger. > > Ray > > > > > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > Posting from another list. Even though one may not be a citizen of Hawaii, it will affect you if you now keep marines or keep marines in the future. A polite, well written letter stating your objection to this bill will help defeat it. I am waiting to see if the poster can send the link to the text of the bill, and will forward it when I get it. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 3:36 PM > > To: > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > From: "PIJAC" <info@> > > > Date: February 2, 2011 12:25:58 PM PST > > > Subject: PIJAC PetAlert concerning a bill introduced (and set for committee hearing) in the Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > > Reply-To: "PIJAC" <info@> > > > > > > > > > Hawaii Bill To Outlaw Sale Of Hawaiian Aquatic Species > > > More Info > > > > > > ** Hearing Set For February 3rd ** > > > > > >  > > > The Issue. > > > Legislation pending in the Hawaii Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing (Senate Bill 580) would prohibit any person, at any time, from knowingly or intentionally selling or offering to sell, for aquarium purposes, aquatic life taken from any Hawaiian waters. > > > > > > The Impact. > > > The broad prohibition against selling aquatic species taken from Hawaiian waters would have limited exceptions. For example, persons â€Å"exercising a customary and traditional right for subsistence, cultural, or religious purposes” are exempt (subject to state regulation). Furthermore, the bill explicitly exempts the harvesting of aquatic species for human consumption or for sale for human consumption (including for use as bait), and would allow issuance of permits for aquatic species used for bona fide scientific or â€Å"public display” purposes. > > > > > > For purposes of this act, the term â€Å"sell” is broadly defined to include the transfer, giving, or delivery to another person, as well as leaving, bartering, or exchanging aquatic species with another person, or the offer or agreement to do any of these things for consideration. > > > > > > Persons violating this law would be subject to as much as $1,000 fine and thirty days imprisonment for a first offense, up to a $2,000 fine and sixty days imprisonment for a second offense and a fine of up to $3,000 and ninety days imprisonment for subsequent violations. Additionally, violators can be subject to an administrative penalty of up to $1,000 for each aquatic life specimen sold. > > > > > > The bill also bans the taking of aquatic species for aquarium purposes without a permit. Permits would be issued only to persons who can satisfy the department that they possess facilities to and can maintain fish and other aquatic life alive and in reasonable health, and who can satisfy the department that the methods of capture, husbandry, and transport are humane and will not result in substantial injury to or death of the taken aquatic life. > > > > > > Regardless of the possession of a permit, however, it would be illegal to sell the aquatic species, even if taken in Hawaiian waters legally. > > > > > > PIJAC Position. > > > While PIJAC supports the reasonable regulation of the aquatic aquarium trade, an outright ban on the aquarium trade has no rational basis. > > > > > > Recommended Action. > > > All persons concerned about preserving the right to keep pets should contact the Senate Committee on Water, Land and Housing in advance of the hearing on Senate Bill 580! The bill is scheduled to be heard by that committee on Thursday, February 3, 2011 at 1:15 p.m. in Conference Room 225 of the state Capitol (415 South Beretania Street). Testimony must be sent to: WLHTestimony@ > > > > > > Additionally, any person able to attend this hearing should do so in order to voice your opposition to this extreme proposal. > > > > > > Click here to view the actual text of this bill. For questions or additional information about SB 580, contact PIJAC’s Michael Maddox via email at Michael@ or by phone at 202-452-1525 ext 106. You may also visit the Breaking News page of PIJAC’s website for updates on this bill and other initiatives impacting pet owners and the pet trade. > > > > > > If you no longer wish to receive e-mail from us, please click here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > No mail - pet-law-nomail@yahoogroups.com ~~ > > Unsubscribe - pet-law-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com ~~ > > Digests - pet-law-digest@yahoogroups.com > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50368	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Good Morning Bruce, Welcome to this List. Glad to have you here; feel free to browse the archives which may contain info you're looking for, and ask whatever you may need to know about marine aquariums. While the group is mainly into freshwater, we do have a few hobbyists here who are also familiar with marine aquariums. I see you're off to a good start and have already posted a message, while I'll attend to shortly. Best of luck with your aquatic interests. Ray -- Aquatic Life Moderator (one of several) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Good Morning all, > > I joined the group yesterday. I've lived here in Maine most all my > life except for a 28 year tour in the Navy. > > I just throw out my old stereo system, which gave me lots of room. I'm > interested in setting up a marine aquarium and its been a few years > since I had an aquarium of any type. > > So any pointers are welcome including books to read. > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50369	From: Ray	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Hi Bruce, I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good one -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an especially good law when it impacts the hobbyists of the State as much as it does since it only allows certain species as being legal, on a very narrow list of possible aquarium species, excluding numerous other possible aquarium fishes which could never survive in latitudes as far north as Maine let alone "displace" the native species. The Rift Lake species (and ESPECIALLY the Rift Lake species which have a inert low tolerance to any different temperatures much outside of that in which they evolved -- and that environment range is narrow) which I referred to could never survive under the ice of the lakes and ponds of the State, and while the rivers may not freeze over, it's extremely dubious that they could adapt to a riverine environment if they could withstand the cold -- which they definitely could not. There was no consideration even, for the specialized dentition of these many fishes, nor their very specific feeding requirements associated with each species' dentition which they evolved with to be able to utilize the very specific niches of feeding environments of scraping specific types of algae for the aufwichs they live on. It would have served both the State and the aquarium hobbyists of the State much better if instead of a blanket law outlawing all but a select few aquarium species, that a more select (and much smaller) list be drawn up specifically targetting any and all prospective problematic fishes known to or even suspected (after some intelligent research, if necessary) of being a possible threat in establishing themselves in the native waters of the State with any possibility of impacting the native species in any manner. By blanketting most of the known freshwater fish species and only allowing a comparatively small number, this is of course much easier and more convenient, but it demonstrates no concern for hobbyists and is totally unnecessary when the majority of the possible aquarium fishes that were left off of this list could never survive these frigid waters at this time of year. While you may have been told that fish not on the list can be allowed for in maintaining them in one's home aquarium if they are so desired, and itf they submit an application for a permit acting as a waver in this law, what you apparently were not told was that for each permit being applied for -- and EACH species needs a seperate application -- there is a high fee to be collected by the State even before it is reviewed. As there is but a relative handful of allowable (and most common) Rift lake species on the list, these fees could fast build up on the hobbyist when (IF) he chooses to keep even a small number of other less frequently seen (but perhaps more desireable) other species. Then, even if these species were allowed, the hobbyist could only maintain these certain other Rift Lake species for the rest of his or her life. To sell or trade these species with the idea of trying some other species new to the hobbyist -- which many of us enjoy doing from time to time -- would not be allowed unless more applications for permits for EACH new Cichlid species not on the list be submitted. Of course the approved one may be sold at any time, but any new fishes would be out of the question until other high fees were paid. The State may add handsomely to their treasury this way, unless the hobbyists remain only with being able to keep the few fish on the allowable list. In effect, if the hobbyist wants to purchase a fish not on this list, he or she must first pay a "penalty" for keeping them -- even though they pose NO danger to the environment. To me, this law is too restrictive and serving no good purpose when it UNNECESSARILY adversely affects the pursuit of happiness of the hobbyist -- unless the hobbyist pays the State for his or her constitutional right. I see it as unfair when the State doesn't take the time to deem exactly which fish only need to be restricted from being imported, which seems obvious as not being very concerned. Why should a hobbyist have to pay to be able to keep a non-threatening aquarium fish of their choice? Will the State soon impose a law requiring a pet owner to apply for a permit to keep their canary? What's next? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good > law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native > species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. > > However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the > list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those > fish that do not need permits to import. > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50370	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Yes, used tanks are great but before buying one I would suggest you find out how “used”. By that I mean buying somewhere like say Craig’s List. Although you are buying a used tank, if possible ask a seller “Did you buy the tank new”? Sometimes you may find that the seller bought this tank used. Result? You could be buying someone’s headache. While there is nothing wrong with used or older tanks, they can cause problems down the road. By an older tank and NOT used or full of water constantly, you may have leaks from the original tanks sealant giving way. Age and use of a tanks history is very important thing to know if you can get honest answers to these questions. You will find that even Wal-Mart, will sell at a reasonable price, a brand new tank or “Kit” that has a stand a light included in the package. It pays to shop around. Bill --- On Fri, 2/4/11, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, February 4, 2011, 7:42 AM > Used tanks are great (look for no > scratches) and I like to pay $1 per gallon > for the tank-only.  For stands and other equipment, > I'd pay 50% of the new > purchase price if the item was nearly new and go less than > 50% if the item > was older and/or showing some wear.  Purchase test > kits and cycle the tank > with ammonia (not fish).  Buy your fish from the LFS > or online and avoid the > sick/dying fish entirely. > > > >   _____  > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of duffy928542002@... > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:20 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS > > > >   > > I've set up my 75 gallon freshwater tank 3 times as I've > moved and I find it > only takes about 4 weeks after I get zebras to start adding > other fish - > I've never had medical issues in the tank - the key I think > is to not > overcrowd ever > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Dani" <dbrown1973@... > <mailto:dbrown1973%40ymail.com> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 08:16:22 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS > > Howdy folks! > > I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have > found that living > near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot > and ended up > always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place > it was a trip to > the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world > and buy a tank > and after getting said tank established, getting fish from > said wally world. > Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or > were bought sick > and had so much hassle. > > This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 > gal or bigger and > there seem to be plenty available here: > http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53 > <http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquariu > m&catAbb=sss.> > &subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just > don't know if > these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show > tank, $1500 for a 500 > gal, etc. > > Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later > on get fish from > them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the > tank and supplies > and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank > established before > putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 > months or more > before I start adding fish in. > (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke > up to the sound > of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. > Now I can't get > back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) > > Thanks, Dani > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50371	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

i was going to get a pelco but then my dad told me how big they got so i got 2 cory cats insted ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:05:19 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I would like to try raising some cory fry, and I have an empty 10 gallon, but all of my space is filled! I look at the eggs as a very nutritious, fresh, and free fish food. Congrats on the pleco babies! I do not know how old 3/4 fry would be. Where did you learn about betta colors? I have no idea what type/color mine are, just that I am obsessed with how beautiful they are. Other than the challenge of breeding Scarlet Badis, Bettas are an addiction for me lol. When I go to buy cat food at Petco, it takes great discipline on my part to not come home with more Bettas. Sometimes that is not enough ;) ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 12:42:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Thanks Laurie! Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their fry together as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the sites I'm seeing are saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been reading about some other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did I've got fish that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I guess it's just as well! My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten about half the leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no longer! I'm feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants will pull through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there and all the babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at night. I blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and removed her. Now the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the side of the tank. > The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the cories > themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less conspicuous place, > some might survive to hatching. > I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily planted tanks, so > > > if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess it is >possible > > for some to survive. > Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put the cories in >a > > tank of their own. > My cories do not protect their eggs. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile angelfish - > they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat other fish, > not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like they're full of > eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? There's a cave in >the > > tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents protect the fry > from the angels? > > I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental breeders!) on how >to > > care for the fry. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >-> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50372	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

> Good Morning Bruce, > > Welcome to this List. Glad to have you here; feel free to browse the > archives which may contain info you're looking for, and ask whatever you may > need to know about marine aquariums. While the group is mainly into > freshwater, we do have a few hobbyists here who are also familiar with > marine aquariums. I see you're off to a good start and have already posted > a message, while I'll attend to shortly. Best of luck with your aquatic > interests. Thanks. If it looks like a to big of a project, my next choice would be to set up an Angelfish tank. I'm sure I'll learn a lot by just reading the group post. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50373	From: Spockster59@comcast.net	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Bruce, Here is a decent book that is often recommended:  The New Marine Aquarium: Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide http://www.amazon.com/New-Marine-Aquarium-Step---Step/dp/1890087521/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296831343&sr=1-1 If you were good at watching (testing) / maintaining your water parameters in your fresh water aquarium you'll be off to a good start when it comes to the marine side of things. Read up on filtration, you won't want to skimp on a protein skimmer and dependent on the size of your setup and interests (fish only vs reef), you may need to consider a refugium as well. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" sevenspringss@... Welcome to this List. Glad to have you here; feel free to browse the archives which may contain info you're looking for, and ask whatever you may need to know about marine aquariums. While the group is mainly into freshwater, we do have a few hobbyists here who are also familiar with marine aquariums. I see you're off to a good start and have already posted a message, while I'll attend to shortly. Best of luck with your aquatic interests. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com , Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Good Morning all, > > I joined the group yesterday. I've lived here in Maine most all my > life except for a 28 year tour in the Navy. > > I just throw out my old stereo system, which gave me lots of room. I'm > interested in setting up a marine aquarium and its been a few years > since I had an aquarium of any type. > > So any pointers are welcome including books to read. > > Bruce [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50374	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I don’t think there is much of ANY fish that would be a good idea to put in a fish bowl. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Emma Caccia Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 8:37 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be all right i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish in my five gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in beside a jar. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@... <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Take Two, They're Small ! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers haecklers@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping > bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish > and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50375	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + > bettas in a 10-gal > > > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50376	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hi Bruce, If you really want salt - go for it! I had a 55 gallon salt water fish tank about 20 years ago. In my experience it wasn't much more involved than a fresh water tank. I had hardy fish, mostly small angels and damsels, as anemone fish. As a matter of fact, my damsels regularly spawned. The most difficult part was convincing my roommate to stop complaining about the previously white coral becoming brown. Initially I would bleach it periodically, but I knew that was not good for the fish. I prefer a more natural habitat - she wanted the pristine white look. My advice is to buy the best equipment you can afford. For me, that is the key. A good filter of the appropriate size or larger will do wonders. Good luck! ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 6:41:22 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to Group > Good Morning Bruce, > > Welcome to this List. Glad to have you here; feel free to browse the > archives which may contain info you're looking for, and ask whatever you may > need to know about marine aquariums. While the group is mainly into > freshwater, we do have a few hobbyists here who are also familiar with > marine aquariums. I see you're off to a good start and have already posted > a message, while I'll attend to shortly. Best of luck with your aquatic > interests. Thanks. If it looks like a to big of a project, my next choice would be to set up an Angelfish tank. I'm sure I'll learn a lot by just reading the group post. Bruce ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50377	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ?

Good to know. I know my betta's love to stalk and eat guppy/platty fry, so I figured they would do the same with small shrimp. Thanks, Amber On 2/4/2011 4:26 AM, Laurie Alaimo wrote: > > Amber, > They actively hunt baby shrimp, and a few really "tough" guys will > harass larger > shrimp, but they don't do much damage. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:18:22 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish AND Bettas now- ? > > While we're talking about betta's... I was curious how betta's react to > small shrimp? I'm assuming they'd be a tasty snack, but I'd rather not > find out the hard way ;) LOL. > > Amber > > On 2/3/2011 6:02 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > We've got some males in a divided part hanging on the back of the > > tank. Once two jumped into the main tank and they only attacked each > > other (they had been next to each other for several weeks, but divided > > so they could only see each other!). Another male just jumped into the > > main tank. He was bigger than the rest and in the couple of hours he > > was out he managed to bite chunks out of many of the other fish's > > tails/fins but had no bites on himself at all. > > > > BTW, I have a theory about why sometimes fry are missing ventral fins > > - I've watched several bettas become ventral biters - they aim for the > > ventrals and lunge and if the other fish isn't quick enough they'll > > bite them right off! Both times I've seen it, it's been a female (fat > > one, too) that was doing it. I don't think it was aggression as much > > as just eating - and they're well-fed so they weren't driven by > > hunger, either! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > > > Also once they are removed from their siblings they cannot just be put > > > back safely, often times they will fight each other right away if you > > > try to put them back together after being separated. I have 4 females > > > that are all siblings in my 125 gallon tank, and they occasionally > will > > > chase each other, but for the most part they ignore each other most of > > > the time. I have another female by herself in another tank, I didn't > > > want to chance putting her in with the other females and have them > kill > > > her :( > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 2/3/2011 4:22 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > Dani, > > > > > > > > When bettas are grown together, they tend not to show the aggression > > > > they are famous for within that group of fish. However, add a > > > > stranger, and with that many fish in there, it will be toast before > > > > you can even move to get it out. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Danielle Brown > > > > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:14 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas > in a > > > > 10-gal > > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have > more > > > > than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't > > > > have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 2:42:45 PM > > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks Laurie! > > > > > > > > > >Before I got the cories I read some site that said they raise their > > > > fry together > > > > >as a group, but now that some are fat (with eggs?) all the > sites I'm > > > > seeing are > > > > >saying they just eat the eggs, and fry too. I must have been > reading > > > > about some > > > > >other kind of fish! LOL! I have no available tanks and if I did > I've > > > > got fish > > > > >that need more room (like 80 1"+ bettas in a 10-gallon!). So I > guess > > > > it's just > > > > >as well! > > > > > > > > > >My ancistrus had babies and I didn't notice until they'd eaten > about > > > > half the > > > > >leaves off of all my plants, so the once heavily planted tank is no > > > > longer! I'm > > > > >feeding them green beans and algae wafers now and hoping my plants > > > > will pull > > > > >through. It's not that I ignore that tank, there's a cave in there > > > > and all the > > > > >babies were retreating to it during the day and just coming out at > > > > night. I > > > > >blamed the one female that I've seen munching on my crypts and > > > > removed her. Now > > > > >the fry are 3/4" long, I wonder how old that makes them? > > > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > > > > <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> The cories in my community tank with angels lay eggs on the > > side of > > > > the tank. > > > > > > > > >> The angels will eat them, as do the snails, and sometimes the > > cories > > > > >> themselves. My guess is that if they laid them in a less > > > > conspicuous place, > > > > >> some might survive to hatching. > > > > >> I have read accounts of folks finding young cories in heavily > > > > planted tanks, so > > > > >> > > > > >> if you have enough hiding places, and they can find food, I guess > > > > it is > > > > >>possible > > > > >> > > > > >> for some to survive. > > > > >> Best senario if you are interested in raising some fry is to put > > > > the cories in > > > > >>a > > > > >> > > > > >> tank of their own. > > > > >> My cories do not protect their eggs. > > > > >> > > > > >> ~ Laurie > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ________________________________ > > > > >> From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > >> Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 6:09:20 AM > > > > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > >> > > > > >> I've got 4 cory catfish in my angelfish tank, with 5 juvenile > > > > angelfish - > > > > >> they're about 2" (body). I've never seen the angelfish try to eat > > > > other fish, > > > > > > > > >> not even guppy fry so far. Two of the cories look fat like > they're > > > > full of > > > > >> eggs. If they do breed, would the angelfish eat the fry? > There's a > > > > cave in the > > > > > > > > > >> tank (half a coconut shell) they can use - would the parents > > > > protect the fry > > > > >> from the angels? > > > > >> > > > > >> I'd love to hear any tips from cory breeders (or accidental > > > > breeders!) on how > > > > >>to > > > > >> > > > > >> care for the fry. > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50378	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Hello:    I agree; convicts are lots of fun to breed and watch as the parents herd their "kids" around from place-to-place in order to search for food.  Thankfully the babies are large enough not to have go through hell to find things small enough for them to eat.  The babies are very hardy and grow quickly.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:29:30 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?   If you want to have baby fish, I recommend setting up a tank of convict cichlids! They're great parents and it's really cute to see mom and dad watching over and feeding their swarm of babies! They say to start out with 5 babies and let them grow up together, and you'll get one or two pairs - as soon as one pair breeds catch the rest and give them away or they'll get beaten on by the new parents who are very protective. They dig around in the substrate to find stuff for their fry to eat and herd them here and there. Next to guppies they are the easiest fish to breed, some say all you need is two fish and a bucket of water! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dani" <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > That is absolutely amazing. I've never had any fish reproduce in any of my >tanks before. I often read where some people work on it and others who must have >had just the right conditions and get an unexpected surprise in seeing new life >in their tanks. I've only managed to buy a prego fish from a wally world for one >of the kids a long time ago. It was a molly or guppy or something like that. A >friend of mine does zero water changes, cleans the filter once a week, and has >giant happy goldfish that started out very small. They spawned a ton of times, >live in a giant tank and have names. She keeps giving the babies away. Its >amazing. :) Thanks for indulging my curiosity. Dani > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 01:47:33 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping >bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up >with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so >well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second >10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the >aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a >few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite >big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish >and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like >ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. >7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made >2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and >cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls >sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them >so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for >some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a >temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't >bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank >would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem >too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really >lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are >red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and >freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have >just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all >the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to >keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of >them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, >I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@> wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in >a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than >one > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50379	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Ray, very well written! If I may add to this my own nightmare with "special permits" for pets that are banned... If you call to get this permit, are you sure it exists in the first place? When we moved into our new house we had expected to bring my daughter's 4 ft ball python with us, but the city has banned "all constrictor snakes" without a special permit. Willing to pay for the permit I attempted to get one, only to be told that it doesn't exist and nobody has the authority to create it. States, cities, etc. have their loopholes to prevent people from keeping this stuff, the special permit thing is all a bunch of crap. After months of fighting this I discovered I would have an easier time getting a permit to keep an elephant because one already exists and can be applied for. Be leery when there is mention of "special permits" for any pet... especially when its a species that is not commonly in demand such as at animal rescues and etc. I also found out in that battle that we are not allowed to keep any species of cephilopod (squid and octopus), any species of shark (fresh or saltwater), and any species of sting ray. The same "special permit" loophole applies to all of these animals too. For me to own any of those species I would first have to move to an area that allows them. The price for getting caught with them is thousands of dollars and mandatory jail time. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > > I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good one -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an especially good law when it impacts the hobbyists of the State as much as it does since it only allows certain species as being legal, on a very narrow list of possible aquarium species, excluding numerous other possible aquarium fishes which could never survive in latitudes as far north as Maine let alone "displace" the native species. > > The Rift Lake species (and ESPECIALLY the Rift Lake species which have a inert low tolerance to any different temperatures much outside of that in which they evolved -- and that environment range is narrow) which I referred to could never survive under the ice of the lakes and ponds of the State, and while the rivers may not freeze over, it's extremely dubious that they could adapt to a riverine environment if they could withstand the cold -- which they definitely could not. There was no consideration even, for the specialized dentition of these many fishes, nor their very specific feeding requirements associated with each species' dentition which they evolved with to be able to utilize the very specific niches of feeding environments of scraping specific types of algae for the aufwichs they live on. > > It would have served both the State and the aquarium hobbyists of the State much better if instead of a blanket law outlawing all but a select few aquarium species, that a more select (and much smaller) list be drawn up specifically targetting any and all prospective problematic fishes known to or even suspected (after some intelligent research, if necessary) of being a possible threat in establishing themselves in the native waters of the State with any possibility of impacting the native species in any manner. By blanketting most of the known freshwater fish species and only allowing a comparatively small number, this is of course much easier and more convenient, but it demonstrates no concern for hobbyists and is totally unnecessary when the majority of the possible aquarium fishes that were left off of this list could never survive these frigid waters at this time of year. > > While you may have been told that fish not on the list can be allowed for in maintaining them in one's home aquarium if they are so desired, and itf they submit an application for a permit acting as a waver in this law, what you apparently were not told was that for each permit being applied for -- and EACH species needs a seperate application -- there is a high fee to be collected by the State even before it is reviewed. As there is but a relative handful of allowable (and most common) Rift lake species on the list, these fees could fast build up on the hobbyist when (IF) he chooses to keep even a small number of other less frequently seen (but perhaps more desireable) other species. Then, even if these species were allowed, the hobbyist could only maintain these certain other Rift Lake species for the rest of his or her life. To sell or trade these species with the idea of trying some other species new to the hobbyist -- which many of us enjoy doing from time to time -- would not be allowed unless more applications for permits for EACH new Cichlid species not on the list be submitted. Of course the approved one may be sold at any time, but any new fishes would be out of the question until other high fees were paid. The State may add handsomely to their treasury this way, unless the hobbyists remain only with being able to keep the few fish on the allowable list. > > In effect, if the hobbyist wants to purchase a fish not on this list, he or she must first pay a "penalty" for keeping them -- even though they pose NO danger to the environment. To me, this law is too restrictive and serving no good purpose when it UNNECESSARILY adversely affects the pursuit of happiness of the hobbyist -- unless the hobbyist pays the State for his or her constitutional right. I see it as unfair when the State doesn't take the time to deem exactly which fish only need to be restricted from being imported, which seems obvious as not being very concerned. Why should a hobbyist have to pay to be able to keep a non-threatening aquarium fish of their choice? Will the State soon impose a law requiring a pet owner to apply for a permit to keep their canary? What's next? > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@> wrote: > > > > I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good > > law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native > > species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. > > > > However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the > > list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those > > fish that do not need permits to import. > > > > Bruce > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50380	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been doing to well ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + > bettas in a 10-gal > > > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50381	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

really ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:52:57 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I don’t think there is much of ANY fish that would be a good idea to put in a fish bowl. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Emma Caccia Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 8:37 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be all right i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish in my five gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in beside a jar. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@... <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Take Two, They're Small ! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers haecklers@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping > bettas together! > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish > and later found out they were females. > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > Thanks, > > Dani > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50382	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hi Bruce, welcome to the group. I agree with the others, if marine interests you, by all means, indulge yourself if you can afford it. The first 2 tips I can offer you would be the bigger the tank the easier it will be, and as the others have already said, don't skimp on filtration and/or equipment. If you are considering a reef tank then a UV sterilizer is super important to add to your list of equipment. Do your research on every species you desire, it can be a little more challenging to find compatible animals for a smallish (55 or less) size tank, and don't expect to fit as many fish into a marine tank as a freshwater tank. Territory, O2 content, filtration, water chemistry, etc. all work a little differently in marine systems. And most important... do not overstock the tank. Marine animals are more sensitive to water chemistry, temp changes, and lighting needs than freshwater animals are. The saltwater side of the hobby can be quite a bit more expensive than freshwater, so watch your budget and plan ahead. When it comes to maintaining a marine tank, if its done right, it can be less work than freshwater. Attention to detail is important. In case you're wondering, yes I have a marine tank and have had at least one running all the time for over 10 yrs now. At present I have a 29 gallon biocube reef, but it will soon be upgraded to 75 gallons. Hope that helps! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Good Morning all, > > I joined the group yesterday. I've lived here in Maine most all my > life except for a 28 year tour in the Navy. > > I just throw out my old stereo system, which gave me lots of room. I'm > interested in setting up a marine aquarium and its been a few years > since I had an aquarium of any type. > > So any pointers are welcome including books to read. > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50383	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they are doing fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but 50's and 60's during the day. You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some plants in there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed this time of year. I do not feed them - they eat the plants. Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been doing to well ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + > bettas in a 10-gal > > > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50384	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably i hate it whenever fish die but in less we move to california somtime soon or i get a bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 years but he is getting quit big ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they are doing fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but 50's and 60's during the day. You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some plants in there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed this time of year. I do not feed them - they eat the plants. Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been doing to well ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >+ > bettas in a 10-gal > > > > > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you >couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Dani > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50385	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: guppies

Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies first ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the guppies? And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50386	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

There is no reason to skip investigating used tanks if you're careful. Many of these tanks do not hold water and you don't get to see them with water in them before you spend your money. Not everyone on Craigslist is an honest person. Also, if it has been used for reptiles I would not suggest using it for fish. Tanks that are made specifically for reptiles are not made to hold water like a fish aquarium, so be careful of that too. (they use thinner glass) Just be very picky, check seals/seams, look for chips and cracks, and ask about the tank's history before you spend your money. If you don't find anything that appears in working condition then best to go to the pet store or back to Wally world. And... always remember... if its used, there is always a risk of leaking/breaking and the manufacturers warranty will be voided because you are a 2nd owner. I took a used 35 gallon hex tank yrs ago and found out the hard way that it wasn't any good when I ended up with 30 gallons of that water in the basement on top of the big screen tv.(went right through the hardwood floor, in the basement it looked like a pipe sprung a leak but not in an area where there were any pipes) To say it was a mess is an understatement. It started leaking about 5 months after I set it up, so it wasn't immediate... and just happened to spring the leak as I was getting the call that my dad had a stroke and I needed to get to the hospital. I had that tank professionally resealed 4 times and it never did hold water, ended up a reptile habitat instead. So... there is always a risk with a used tank. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dani" <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > Howdy folks! > > I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. > > This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. > > Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. > (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) > Thanks, Dani > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50387	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap floating plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do regular water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably i hate it whenever fish die but in less we move to california somtime soon or i get a bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 years but he is getting quit big ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they are doing fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but 50's and 60's during the day. You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some plants in there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed this time of year. I do not feed them - they eat the plants. Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been doing to well ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >+ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津つ｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃつ｡ > bettas in aﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津つ｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃつ｡ 10-gal > > > > > tank?ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津つ｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃつ｡ Showing my ignorance here, but >I thought you > >couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Daniﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津つ｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃつｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃつ｡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ﾃつｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸﾃつｸ.><((((ﾃつｺ>.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸﾃつｸ.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸ><((((ﾃつｺ> ﾃつｸ.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸ. , .ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ..><((((ﾃつｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ﾃつｺ((((><.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸﾃつｸ.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸ<ﾃつｺ((((><ﾃつｸ.ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸ. , .ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ..<ﾃつｺ((((><ﾃつｷﾃつｴﾃつｯ`ﾃつｷ.ﾃつｸﾃつｸ. 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Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ><((((ｺ> ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..><((((ｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50388	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

I have never purchased anything off of craigslist, but I have gotten plenty of used tanks (2 to be precise). One is about 10 years old now and I bought it used from someone here in town, and it's probably due to be re-sealed with silcone soon too from the looks of it. The other was also from someone in town, not sure how old it is but I've had it for 2 years now, it was a salt water set up before then. Both of these tanks were a very good deal, I got the 55 gallon for 50 dollars with all the gravel and a light that I no longer use (not enough light for plants). I got the 125 gallon for 225, with all the gravel, an eheim canister filter, and a python gravel vac with extra long hose attachment. So sometimes getting a used tank can be a very good thing. As Dawn said though, be picky and look at the tank closely, and if possible ask if you can fill it with water prior to taking it home/paying for it so you can make sure it holds water. Amber On 2/4/2011 2:15 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > There is no reason to skip investigating used tanks if you're careful. > Many of these tanks do not hold water and you don't get to see them > with water in them before you spend your money. Not everyone on > Craigslist is an honest person. Also, if it has been used for reptiles > I would not suggest using it for fish. Tanks that are made > specifically for reptiles are not made to hold water like a fish > aquarium, so be careful of that too. (they use thinner glass) > > Just be very picky, check seals/seams, look for chips and cracks, and > ask about the tank's history before you spend your money. If you don't > find anything that appears in working condition then best to go to the > pet store or back to Wally world. And... always remember... if its > used, there is always a risk of leaking/breaking and the manufacturers > warranty will be voided because you are a 2nd owner. > > I took a used 35 gallon hex tank yrs ago and found out the hard way > that it wasn't any good when I ended up with 30 gallons of that water > in the basement on top of the big screen tv.(went right through the > hardwood floor, in the basement it looked like a pipe sprung a leak > but not in an area where there were any pipes) To say it was a mess is > an understatement. It started leaking about 5 months after I set it > up, so it wasn't immediate... and just happened to spring the leak as > I was getting the call that my dad had a stroke and I needed to get to > the hospital. I had that tank professionally resealed 4 times and it > never did hold water, ended up a reptile habitat instead. > > So... there is always a risk with a used tank. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Dani" <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > > > Howdy folks! > > > > I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that > living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and > ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place > it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally > world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting > fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with > fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. > > > > This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or > bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: > http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss. > <http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium&catAbb=sss.> > I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall > show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. > > > > Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get > fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the > tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank > established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd > probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. > > (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the > sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I > can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) > > Thanks, Dani > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50389	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change the filter pad allot ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap floating plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do regular water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably i hate it whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i get a bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 years but he is getting quit big ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they are doing fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but 50's and 60's during the day. You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some plants in there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed this time of year. I do not feed them - they eat the plants. Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been doing to well ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At least a 30 gallon, minimum. Amber On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > all right > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > in my five > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > beside a jar. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > wrote: > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > keeping > > bettas together! > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > wound up > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > expecting to do so > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > second > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > removing the > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > missing a > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > get quite > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > "bitey" fish > > and later found out they were females. > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > overcrowded like > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > months Feb. > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > female. We > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > and > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > bowls > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > all of them > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > takers for > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > bathroom into a > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > but I can't > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > fry tank > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > didn't seem > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > looked really > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > Others are > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > Craigslist and > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > still have > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > taking all > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > them to > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > group of > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > together, > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > aggressive fish. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ wrote: > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >+ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > bettas in >aﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > 10-gal > > > > > >tank?ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > Showing my ignorance here, but > >I thought you > >couldn't > have more than one > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > don't have to > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > Thanks, > > > >Daniﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ﾃ�ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.><((((ﾃ�ｺ>.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ><((((ﾃ�ｺ> ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. , .ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..><((((ﾃ�ｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ﾃ�ｺ((((><.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. , .ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ><((((ｺ> ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..><((((ｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50390	From: haecklers	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think you'll get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies first > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the guppies? > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50391	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Well no one says that you have to keep fish in a glass/acrylic aquarium LOL. Some people use rubber maid storage tubs for longer than just a temporary home. The fish don't mind not being able to see through the plastic ;) If you want to make it "pet safe" you can use the lid but drill holes in it so it allows some air circulation. Some rubbermaid containers even have clear spots in the lids, so you could use a light (as long as it's not right against the plastic, it may melt it over time). Amber On 2/4/2011 4:56 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change > the filter > pad allot > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap > floating > plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do > regular > water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably > i hate it > whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i > get a > bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 > years but he > is getting quit big > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they > are doing > fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but > 50's and > > 60's during the day. > > You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some > plants in > there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed > this time of > > year. > > I do not feed them - they eat the plants. > > Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been > doing to well > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At > least a 30 gallon, minimum. > > Amber > > On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > > all right > > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > > in my five > > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > > beside a jar. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > > keeping > > > bettas together! > > > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > > wound up > > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > > expecting to do so > > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > > second > > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > > removing the > > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > > missing a > > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > > get quite > > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > > "bitey" fish > > > and later found out they were females. > > > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > > overcrowded like > > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > > months Feb. > > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > > female. We > > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > > and > > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > > bowls > > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > > all of them > > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > > takers for > > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > > bathroom into a > > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > > but I can't > > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > > fry tank > > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > > didn't seem > > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > > looked really > > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > > Others are > > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > > Craigslist and > > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > > still have > > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > > taking all > > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > > them to > > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > > group of > > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > > together, > > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > > aggressive fish. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" > >+ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > > > bettas in > >aﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > 10-gal > > > > > > > > >tank?ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > Showing my ignorance here, but > > > >I thought you > > > >couldn't > > have more than one > > > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > > don't have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > >Daniﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃ�ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.><((((ﾃ�ｺ>.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ><((((ﾃ�ｺ> > > ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. , > > .ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..><((((ﾃ�ｺ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <ﾃ�ｺ((((><.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. > > , > > .ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ><((((ｺ> > > ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..><((((ｺ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. > , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50392	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

Breeders generally use jars to raise spawns in. They move them out of the breeding tank when shortly after they are free swimming and eating the supplied food. 100% daily water changes are the norm here, and the fry are aggressively culled to gain what the breeder is looking for. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend keeping bettas together! We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We wound up with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't expecting to do so well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a second 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were removing the aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are missing a few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males get quite big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some "bitey" fish and later found out they were females. They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're overcrowded like ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 months Feb. 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or female. We made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille and cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and bowls sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out all of them so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find takers for some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's bathroom into a temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, but I can't bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the fry tank would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought didn't seem too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that looked really lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! Others are red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on Craigslist and freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but still have just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're taking all the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to them to keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a group of them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank together, I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy aggressive fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Danielle Brown <dbrown1973@...> wrote: > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" + bettas in a 10-gal > tank? Showing my ignorance here, but I thought you couldn't have more than one > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You don't have to > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > Thanks, > DaniÂ

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50393	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Dawn, You could probably sue the city for allowing people to get a permit for certain animals, then not having any mechanism set up to issue (or deny) such a permit. All you need is some time and money to do so. Winning means that you can probably recover the legal fees as well. A lot of these laws also step all over the Constitution of the US and/or the state. Several localities have had at least parts of these laws an ordinances overturned on constitutional grounds. Many pieces of legislation like the one you ran up against have their genesis with animal rights organizations, and get pushed through quickly with the help of a beholden politician or two so the opposition does not have time to properly respond. The logic behind a lot of this stuff is, to be kind, faulty, and most of them do not have any basis in science and very little basis in fact (again, to be kind). \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:34 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. Ray, very well written! If I may add to this my own nightmare with "special permits" for pets that are banned... If you call to get this permit, are you sure it exists in the first place? When we moved into our new house we had expected to bring my daughter's 4 ft ball python with us, but the city has banned "all constrictor snakes" without a special permit. Willing to pay for the permit I attempted to get one, only to be told that it doesn't exist and nobody has the authority to create it. States, cities, etc. have their loopholes to prevent people from keeping this stuff, the special permit thing is all a bunch of crap. After months of fighting this I discovered I would have an easier time getting a permit to keep an elephant because one already exists and can be applied for. Be leery when there is mention of "special permits" for any pet... especially when its a species that is not commonly in demand such as at animal rescues and etc. I also found out in that battle that we are not allowed to keep any species of cephilopod (squid and octopus), any species of shark (fresh or saltwater), and any species of sting ray. The same "special permit" loophole applies to all of these animals too. For me to own any of those species I would first have to move to an area that allows them. The price for getting caught with them is thousands of dollars and mandatory jail time. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Bruce, > > I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good one -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an especially good law when it impacts the hobbyists of the State as much as it does since it only allows certain species as being legal, on a very narrow list of possible aquarium species, excluding numerous other possible aquarium fishes which could never survive in latitudes as far north as Maine let alone "displace" the native species. > > The Rift Lake species (and ESPECIALLY the Rift Lake species which have a inert low tolerance to any different temperatures much outside of that in which they evolved -- and that environment range is narrow) which I referred to could never survive under the ice of the lakes and ponds of the State, and while the rivers may not freeze over, it's extremely dubious that they could adapt to a riverine environment if they could withstand the cold -- which they definitely could not. There was no consideration even, for the specialized dentition of these many fishes, nor their very specific feeding requirements associated with each species' dentition which they evolved with to be able to utilize the very specific niches of feeding environments of scraping specific types of algae for the aufwichs they live on. > > It would have served both the State and the aquarium hobbyists of the State much better if instead of a blanket law outlawing all but a select few aquarium species, that a more select (and much smaller) list be drawn up specifically targetting any and all prospective problematic fishes known to or even suspected (after some intelligent research, if necessary) of being a possible threat in establishing themselves in the native waters of the State with any possibility of impacting the native species in any manner. By blanketting most of the known freshwater fish species and only allowing a comparatively small number, this is of course much easier and more convenient, but it demonstrates no concern for hobbyists and is totally unnecessary when the majority of the possible aquarium fishes that were left off of this list could never survive these frigid waters at this time of year. > > While you may have been told that fish not on the list can be allowed for in maintaining them in one's home aquarium if they are so desired, and itf they submit an application for a permit acting as a waver in this law, what you apparently were not told was that for each permit being applied for -- and EACH species needs a seperate application -- there is a high fee to be collected by the State even before it is reviewed. As there is but a relative handful of allowable (and most common) Rift lake species on the list, these fees could fast build up on the hobbyist when (IF) he chooses to keep even a small number of other less frequently seen (but perhaps more desireable) other species. Then, even if these species were allowed, the hobbyist could only maintain these certain other Rift Lake species for the rest of his or her life. To sell or trade these species with the idea of trying some other species new to the hobbyist -- which many of us enjoy doing from time to time -- would not be allowed unless more applications for permits for EACH new Cichlid species not on the list be submitted. Of course the approved one may be sold at any time, but any new fishes would be out of the question until other high fees were paid. The State may add handsomely to their treasury this way, unless the hobbyists remain only with being able to keep the few fish on the allowable list. > > In effect, if the hobbyist wants to purchase a fish not on this list, he or she must first pay a "penalty" for keeping them -- even though they pose NO danger to the environment. To me, this law is too restrictive and serving no good purpose when it UNNECESSARILY adversely affects the pursuit of happiness of the hobbyist -- unless the hobbyist pays the State for his or her constitutional right. I see it as unfair when the State doesn't take the time to deem exactly which fish only need to be restricted from being imported, which seems obvious as not being very concerned. Why should a hobbyist have to pay to be able to keep a non-threatening aquarium fish of their choice? Will the State soon impose a law requiring a pet owner to apply for a permit to keep their canary? What's next? > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@> wrote: > > > > I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good > > law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native > > species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. > > > > However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the > > list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those > > fish that do not need permits to import. > > > > Bruce > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50394	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Dani, When buying a used tank, if it is a sale by a person, ask them to fill the tank so you can see that it does not leak (at least immediately). If the person defers to show you the tank filled, politely thank them and move onto the next ad. Watch the pricing carefully. Last time I cruised that type of advertising, I saw a lot of people who wanted retail prices of new tanks and equipment. Definitely not a deal. I just checked the price for a 500 gallon on www.glasscages.com and they list a 500 gallon for $2669.The largest acrylic they list is a 300 gallon for $2384. The closest to a 110 tall glass tank on the site is a 125 gallon tall for $396. The "show" means nothing--a piece of puffery. These prices are prior to shipping costs. Be aware of what new tanks are going for to determine if the pricing is good. Be willing to bargain as well. Offer $500 for the 500 gallon to start. Settle for $750-900 at the end--higher if it includes a stand. (Yes, I would pay more for a tank that size.) On something like that, leave a contact number so they can call you back in a few weeks if they have no takers otherwise <g>. Also keep in mind you will need several strong backs and a couple of cases of beer along with a truck to move the tank. For those interested in bettas, they offer several "betta tanks" tanks that are already compartmented for bettas or similar fish you may wish to keep separated. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:16 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium &catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50395	From: Dani	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Cool, thanks for the advice! Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 23:19:03 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Dani, When buying a used tank, if it is a sale by a person, ask them to fill the tank so you can see that it does not leak (at least immediately). If the person defers to show you the tank filled, politely thank them and move onto the next ad. Watch the pricing carefully. Last time I cruised that type of advertising, I saw a lot of people who wanted retail prices of new tanks and equipment. Definitely not a deal. I just checked the price for a 500 gallon on www.glasscages.com and they list a 500 gallon for $2669.The largest acrylic they list is a 300 gallon for $2384. The closest to a 110 tall glass tank on the site is a 125 gallon tall for $396. The "show" means nothing--a piece of puffery. These prices are prior to shipping costs. Be aware of what new tanks are going for to determine if the pricing is good. Be willing to bargain as well. Offer $500 for the 500 gallon to start. Settle for $750-900 at the end--higher if it includes a stand. (Yes, I would pay more for a tank that size.) On something like that, leave a contact number so they can call you back in a few weeks if they have no takers otherwise <g>. Also keep in mind you will need several strong backs and a couple of cases of beer along with a truck to move the tank. For those interested in bettas, they offer several "betta tanks" tanks that are already compartmented for bettas or similar fish you may wish to keep separated. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:16 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium &catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50396	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/4/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium prices and LFS

Look closely for scratches. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:19:03 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Dani, When buying a used tank, if it is a sale by a person, ask them to fill the tank so you can see that it does not leak (at least immediately). If the person defers to show you the tank filled, politely thank them and move onto the next ad. Watch the pricing carefully. Last time I cruised that type of advertising, I saw a lot of people who wanted retail prices of new tanks and equipment. Definitely not a deal. I just checked the price for a 500 gallon on www.glasscages.com and they list a 500 gallon for $2669.The largest acrylic they list is a 300 gallon for $2384. The closest to a 110 tall glass tank on the site is a 125 gallon tall for $396. The "show" means nothing--a piece of puffery. These prices are prior to shipping costs. Be aware of what new tanks are going for to determine if the pricing is good. Be willing to bargain as well. Offer $500 for the 500 gallon to start. Settle for $750-900 at the end--higher if it includes a stand. (Yes, I would pay more for a tank that size.) On something like that, leave a contact number so they can call you back in a few weeks if they have no takers otherwise <g>. Also keep in mind you will need several strong backs and a couple of cases of beer along with a truck to move the tank. For those interested in bettas, they offer several "betta tanks" tanks that are already compartmented for bettas or similar fish you may wish to keep separated. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dani Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 3:16 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium prices and LFS Howdy folks! I've decided to get an aquarium in my new place and have found that living near a large city has its advantages. I used to move a lot and ended up always giving my tank(s) away. Every time I got a new place it was a trip to the local fish store, balk at the price, go to wally world and buy a tank and after getting said tank established, getting fish from said wally world. Every single time, I've had to deal with fish that died or were bought sick and had so much hassle. This time I'm serious about getting a big (to me) tank: 75 gal or bigger and there seem to be plenty available here: http://sanantonio.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=53&subAreaID=&query=aquarium &catAbb=sss. I just don't know if these prices are good, like $500 for 110 gal tall show tank, $1500 for a 500 gal, etc. Is it just better to go to a LFS and get a tank and later on get fish from them too? I'm very patient and am saving up money for the tank and supplies and fish. I know to take my time in getting the tank established before putting in fish. With a 75 gal or bigger, I'd probably be 3 months or more before I start adding fish in. (Sorry about the rambling post. Went to bed early and woke up to the sound of some small creature stirring around in my bedroom wall. Now I can't get back to sleep and tried to focus on getting my aquarium...) Thanks, Dani Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50397	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

> I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good one > -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes > from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an We'll most likely never agree on this subject. We've to many native fish endangered or completely disappeared over the years. The cost to the tax payers on reclaiming a waterway is very high and in a lot of cases impossible. I believe the fish you talk about are Cichlids. Without knowing which ones I can't say for sure if they are listed or not. I'm enclosing the link for the unrestricted list - http://www.maine.gov/ifw/wildlife/species/unrestricted_species.htm Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50398	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

> Here is a decent book that is often recommended:ย The New Marine Aquarium: > Step-By-Step Setup & Stocking Guide > > > http://www.amazon.com/New-Marine-Aquarium-Step---Step/dp/1890087521/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1296831343&sr=1-1 > > Thanks for the information everyone. At this time I'm unsure what species I would like to keep. I believe I have room for at least a 65 gallon tank if not bigger. I'll in mind about the equipment and make up a list and stick right to it. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50399	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Freshwater Aquarium Books

Good Morning All, I just got to thinking that maybe getting a book on setting up freshwater aquariums would be a good idea to go along with the saltwater aquarium book. Does anyone have a recommendation on a good book on freshwater aquarium set ups? Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50400	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ?

what i am afriad of is that our cat will figure out how to open the lid and get a tasty goldfish snack ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:45:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Well no one says that you have to keep fish in a glass/acrylic aquarium LOL. Some people use rubber maid storage tubs for longer than just a temporary home. The fish don't mind not being able to see through the plastic ;) If you want to make it "pet safe" you can use the lid but drill holes in it so it allows some air circulation. Some rubbermaid containers even have clear spots in the lids, so you could use a light (as long as it's not right against the plastic, it may melt it over time). Amber On 2/4/2011 4:56 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change > the filter > pad allot > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap > floating > plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do > regular > water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably > i hate it > whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i > get a > bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 > years but he > is getting quit big > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they > are doing > fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but > 50's and > > 60's during the day. > > You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some > plants in > there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed > this time of > > year. > > I do not feed them - they eat the plants. > > Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been > doing to well > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At > least a 30 gallon, minimum. > > Amber > > On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > > all right > > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > > in my five > > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > > beside a jar. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > > keeping > > > bettas together! > > > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > > wound up > > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > > expecting to do so > > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > > second > > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > > removing the > > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > > missing a > > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > > get quite > > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > > "bitey" fish > > > and later found out they were females. > > > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > > overcrowded like > > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > > months Feb. > > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > > female. We > > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > > and > > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > > bowls > > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > > all of them > > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > > takers for > > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > > bathroom into a > > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > > but I can't > > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > > fry tank > > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > > didn't seem > > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > > looked really > > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > > Others are > > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > > Craigslist and > > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > > still have > > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > > taking all > > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > > them to > > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > > group of > > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > > together, > > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > > aggressive fish. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >>+ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ >¡ > > > > bettas in >>aﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ >¡ > > 10-gal > > > > > > > >>tank?ﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ >¡ > > Showing my ignorance here, but > > > >I thought you > > > >couldn't > > have more than one > > > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > > don't have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > >>Daniﾃθ津�窶凖�窶�ﾃ｢竄ｬ邃｢ﾃθ津�｢ﾃδ｢ﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�ｬﾃ�窶ｦﾃ�｡ >¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃ�ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.><((((ﾃ�ｺ>.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ><((((ﾃ�ｺ> >> > >ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. >. , > >.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..><((((ﾃ�ｺ> >> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ﾃ�ｺ((((><.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｸ.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸ. >. > > , > >.ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ..<ﾃ�ｺ((((><ﾃ�ｷﾃ�ｴﾃ�ｯ`ﾃ�ｷ.ﾃ�ｸﾃ�ｸ. >. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ï½· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸ><((((ｺ> >> > > > ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸ. , >.ｷｴｯ`ï½·..><((((ｺ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸ. >. > , >.ｷｴｯ`ï½·..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ï½·.ｸｸ. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50401	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her will by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think you'll get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies first > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the guppies? > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50402	From: Ray	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books

Good Morning Bruce, You are thinking in the right direction. Yes, a good reference book on the basics of aquarium maintenance is well worth having. For freshwater, I'd suggest looking into obtaining the Baensch Atlas Volume I. While it can be a bit on the expensive side, it's worth its weight in gold if if helps you save your fish when you run into a problem. Good used ones can often be found on eBay for less than half the cost of a new one. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Good Morning All, > > I just got to thinking that maybe getting a book on setting up > freshwater aquariums would be a good idea to go along with the > saltwater aquarium book. > > Does anyone have a recommendation on a good book on freshwater aquarium set ups? > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50403	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books

What I like to do is get every book in the Library on the topic so I can review. This get’s me the information I want for free, and I may find one book good enough that I want to purchase it for my library. Keep in mind different freshwater fish require different set-ups and there probably is not one book that can cover them all. Fish magazines are a good idea too. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Clark Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 8:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Freshwater Aquarium Books Good Morning All, I just got to thinking that maybe getting a book on setting up freshwater aquariums would be a good idea to go along with the saltwater aquarium book. Does anyone have a recommendation on a good book on freshwater aquarium set ups? Bruce [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50404	From: Ray	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Hi Bruce, Now that I've learn to know just a little bit more about you from your few messages you've posted thus far, I can understand your beginners position on this since you may not even know enough about the numerous fishes left off of the "allowable list" to have come to appreciate them or even to know what they are. If you prefer not to agree with my stance, you're perfectly in your rights to do so and it will not bother me in the least. That's your prerogative and I still remain glad to know you. For the benefit of the members though, and in having the benefit of looking over the list you kindly included a link to, I have to say that I'm now even more adamate in claiming such as list is way far restrictive, and very unnecessarily so as it leaves out so many innocent aquarium fishes that could never pose a threat to any other wildlife. Many (most) of the fishes left off of the list are beautiful in their own right, and to prevent them from being enjoyed by hobbyists is not deserved by any citizen of the United States, when just being the situation that the legislaters do not know enough about these fishes nor did they do their homework to be fair enough to their constituents. The fishes that I'm referring to that I see as being left off the list are extremely close relatives of those allowed on the list and pose no more of a danger than their closely related "cousins" on the list, so there was absolutely no need to eliminate them, but was apparently done so through ignorance (lack of knowledge about these fishes, or even lack of knowledge OF the fishes that they even exist). Yes, I do realize that permits for fish not on the list can be applied for, and since any of the fishes I'm talking about would not be a threat to the environment they certainly would be approved, without a single doubt, but the hobbyist should not need to go through this red tape to pursue their happiness (a fundamental right), with paying this $50 fee just to keep them when they were wrongly left off of the list to begin with. Yes, I noticed your list included the cost ($50 PER SPECIES) of this permit, which is unjust. You're paying for their lack of diligence. For starters, and on Cichlids as you asked about, I see only three allowable Melanochromis species from the Rift Lake, Malawi -- M. chipoke, M. Johanni and M. parallelus. It makes me wonder why I don't see the extremely popular M. auratus or even M. brevis, M. melanopterus, M. robustus, M. vermivorous or any of the other fishes in this genus. Likewise for the Genus Labidochromis, when I see L. exasperatus as the ONLY one in this group, but can't help to wonder whast happened to the extremely popular L. caeruleus -- the "Yellow Lab" that so many beginner (and advanced) Rift Lake Cichlid hobbyists have enjoyed for decades all around the country. Then, I notice Ramphochromis machrophthalmus -- Malawi "Torpedo" (Malawi "Barracuda") on the list, yet its close cousin, Champsochromis caeruleus (Malawi "Trout") being left off for no known reason, when it poses no more or no less of a threat. Noticing three Herichthys species from Central America, some of which have been reassigned to different Genera, but which include; H. carpintis, H. managuensis and H. maculacauda. A question would be -- What ever happened to the beautiful Red Head Cichlid, Synspillum which is a near spitting image of H. maculacauda except for the coloration. Then too, if the predator, H. managuensis was allowed on the list, why then was the Dovii left off, as even though the former is smaller (but still 3/4 the size of the Dovii), they both have identical habits. For thast matter, as for Central American Cichlids, I don't even see the ever-popular Jack Dempsey on the list, which is a pussy-cat when compared to the above three allowed species, nor do I see the Convict Cichlid which even many members here have enjoyed. There is but ONE Geophagus allowed allolwed one the list (G. braziliensis) and ONE Gymnogeophagus (G. balzani). What happened to all the rest? Getting back to Lake Malawi Cichlids, there are absolutely NONE of the Malawi Peacock (Aulonocara) group, nor are there any Protomelas (Red Empress, etc.). As for the Utaka, Nimbochromis, there are 3 allowable species, but what happened to the beautiful N. fuscotaeniatus or the N. linni? Out of ALL the Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, there is ONLY ONE representative species from that Lake allowable -- Altolamprologus compressiceps. There are NO Tropheus, NO Julidochromis, NO MORE of ANY other Lake Tanganyika Cichlids with the exception of Haplochromis burtoni which is not endemic solely to Lake Tangankia. There are NO Lake Victoria Cichlids on the list at all. Touching on the Livebearers, it's noted that the list does include Guppies, Platties, the common Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and most of the well established Molly species, but as for any others such as Xiphophorus montazumae, the list inexplicably leaves them and others out. There are numerous beautiful species of Rainbowfishes from Australia and New Guinea, but of these Melanotaenia species there are only 3 allowable ones on the list. So many other beautiful ones having no different habits and posing no more of a threat are left off and not allowed to be enjoyed by the Maine hobbyists unless they want to pay $50 for EACH other species they want to keep. This can get expensive! In looking over the Tetras, through lack of further research, there are only 6 species of Hyphessobrycon and 6 species of Hemigrammus allowed on the list. There IS the Hoplias malibaricus (infamous Wolf Fish) ALLOWED on the list, which I can't understand as it's very soimilar in habits to the now all-too-well-known Snakeheads which are wreaking havoc in many waterways, displacing native fishes. With due credit though, it's dubious that it would survive a Maine Winter -- JUST THE SAME AS any other species I've mentioned that was wrongly omitted from the list. I can understand the concern for having native fish endangered or even more seriously, disappearing as a result of invasive fishes, but the tropical aquarium species I mentioned are simply not a danger to Maine's wildlife as they can't survive a Winter any more than their allowable related fish can which ARE on the list. I can also understand the cost to the taxpayers in reclaiming the affected waterways, but the hoobbyists should have to suffer from this and be deprived of fishes they could enjoy that have nothing to do with these circumstances. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > We'll most likely never agree on this subject. We've to many native > fish endangered or completely disappeared over the years. The cost to > the tax payers on reclaiming a waterway is very high and in a lot of > cases impossible. > > I believe the fish you talk about are Cichlids. Without knowing which > ones I can't say for sure if they are listed or not. > > I'm enclosing the link for the unrestricted list - > http://www.maine.gov/ifw/wildlife/species/unrestricted_species.htm > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50405	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her will > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think you'll > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies first > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the guppies? > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50406	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater Aquarium Books

"Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" by Diana Walstad. Great book! Easy to find and not too expensive, either. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Good Morning All, > > I just got to thinking that maybe getting a book on setting up > freshwater aquariums would be a good idea to go along with the > saltwater aquarium book. > > Does anyone have a recommendation on a good book on freshwater aquarium set ups? > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50407	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

we live in the woods so that i couldn't risk having them getting eaten ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:13:04 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her >will > > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think >you'll > > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies >first > > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the >guppies? > > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50408	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish tub

Emma, I have 3 cats in my house and 5 outside. I have a kiddie pool with guppies and mosquito fish, 3 tubs of various guppies, a fish tank with no lid with goldfish - those are all outside. Inside I have a stand with 2 shelves - the upper shelf is near a window sill - the cats jump up there to drink out of the tank. On the bottom shelf is a 10 gallon with Endler livebearers - the dogs drink out of that one. Darned pets - I give them fresh water twice a day but they still prefer fish water lol. Anyway, you get the idea. The cats like to watch the fish sometimes, but for the most part ignore them. Maybe because they have always been around them, I don't know. I think a cat may be able to catch a betta in a bowl but I do not think they could catch a goldfish in a tub. The goldfish could easily swim away from them. Now raccoons - that's another story. If you have raccoons DO NOT put fish you care about outside unless you have a 3 feet deep pond. Even then it is iffy. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 5:19:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? what i am afriad of is that our cat will figure out how to open the lid and get a tasty goldfish snack ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:45:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Well no one says that you have to keep fish in a glass/acrylic aquarium LOL. Some people use rubber maid storage tubs for longer than just a temporary home. The fish don't mind not being able to see through the plastic ;) If you want to make it "pet safe" you can use the lid but drill holes in it so it allows some air circulation. Some rubbermaid containers even have clear spots in the lids, so you could use a light (as long as it's not right against the plastic, it may melt it over time). Amber On 2/4/2011 4:56 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change > the filter > pad allot > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap > floating > plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do > regular > water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably > i hate it > whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i > get a > bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 > years but he > is getting quit big > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they > are doing > fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but > 50's and > > 60's during the day. > > You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some > plants in > there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed > this time of > > year. > > I do not feed them - they eat the plants. > > Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been > doing to well > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At > least a 30 gallon, minimum. > > Amber > > On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > > all right > > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > > in my five > > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > > beside a jar. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > > keeping > > > bettas together! > > > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > > wound up > > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > > expecting to do so > > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > > second > > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > > removing the > > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > > missing a > > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > > get quite > > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > > "bitey" fish > > > and later found out they were females. > > > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > > overcrowded like > > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > > months Feb. > > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > > female. We > > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > > and > > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > > bowls > > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > > all of them > > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > > takers for > > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > > bathroom into a > > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > > but I can't > > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > > fry tank > > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > > didn't seem > > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > > looked really > > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > > Others are > > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > > Craigslist and > > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > > still have > > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > > taking all > > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > > them to > > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > > group of > > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > > together, > > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > > aggressive fish. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >>+ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃ つｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > > > bettas in >>aﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃ つｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > 10-gal > > > > > > > >>tank?ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯ ﾃつｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > Showing my ignorance here, but > > > >I thought you > > > >couldn't > > have more than one > > > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > > don't have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > >>Daniﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯ ﾃつｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ A great way to share experience & >ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ>.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ ｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > >ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. , > >.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ ｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ<ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. > > , > >.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..<ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃ つｸ. > >. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ>.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > > > ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. , >.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ<ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. > , >.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..<ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ><((((ｺ> ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..><((((ｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50409	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

I did the same thing with my guppies and they became beautiful. I have pink lotus seeds in enough of a quantity that I can give you five if you want, they flower pink. Or if you want different colors maybe we could trade. Email me at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com, and put lotus in the sublect line. Bren in MI Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:13:04 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her will > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > >________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think you'll > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies first > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the guppies? > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50410	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Steve, On paper/in writing that sounds great, however... who has that kind of money, especially today? I know I don't. I also don't have a lawyer who would be willing to take on such a case. I live in a city with a population of less than 2500 people. This is not the only city with such laws around here. The biggest part of this battle has been that the species such as the snakes, that are banned, are legal within the state, just illegal within the city due to an ordinance. This ordinance was written/drafted, and supported by the city attorney. Trying to find a lawyer to fight the city attorney would be impossible here... in a small town like this, those kinds of battles are near impossible to win. Nobody wants to take on the city attorney and then still need to live here. When I started this fight I went as high up as the Department of Agriculture and even the Senator's and Governor's offices. Everywhere I went I was told the same thing... no such permit exists and nobody holds a job that entitles them to create it, therefore its unattainable. I was told that if I didn't like it, really needed to keep such a species, then I should move to a place where they are allowed/legal. As long as that species remains legal on the state level, there is nothing more I can do about it unless I win a lottery large enough to fund a legal battle that I would still likely lose. So... I bide my time until I can move, which won't be for probably another 10 yrs... at which time I will no longer be physically capable of keeping some of the animals I so desire. You are correct about the unfounded reasoning behind these laws/ordinances. There is no sense in something such as this. If the stinger were removed from a small teacup sting ray it would be rendered harmless... yet it would still be illegal to keep here. I can't afford to spend jail time to make a point that just isn't going to be made in a place like this. On the other hand... there are enough idiots out there to warrant a ban on specific species, such as the blue ring octopus. I got a request a couple of yrs ago from the owner of a bowling alley in the next town. He wanted the large aquarium at the bowling alley set up to house a blue ring octopus and he wanted me to maintain it. All I could do was laugh at him, especially after he said he planned to do it even without my help. I told him, "good luck with that". What is the point in such a thing? Why would anyone with any level of intelligence attempt such a thing? So I understand where many of these laws came from, its just the way it was handled that borderlines insane and is unconstitutional. I really do wish I had the money to fight these stupid laws, not just because I desire to keep the animals myself, but to throw the idiots for a loop when it comes to abuse of their political power. It would be a huge victory for so many... but then what problems would it open up for the dumb ones who try to keep the blue ring octopus in a public recreational setting? All it would bring is more stupid laws that abuse political power. Its an endless cycle. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > You could probably sue the city for allowing people to get a permit for > certain animals, then not having any mechanism set up to issue (or deny) > such a permit. All you need is some time and money to do so. Winning means > that you can probably recover the legal fees as well. > > A lot of these laws also step all over the Constitution of the US and/or the > state. Several localities have had at least parts of these laws an > ordinances overturned on constitutional grounds. > > Many pieces of legislation like the one you ran up against have their > genesis with animal rights organizations, and get pushed through quickly > with the help of a beholden politician or two so the opposition does not > have time to properly respond. The logic behind a lot of this stuff is, to > be kind, faulty, and most of them do not have any basis in science and very > little basis in fact (again, to be kind). > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:34 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature > which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Ray, very well written! > If I may add to this my own nightmare with "special permits" for pets that > are banned... > If you call to get this permit, are you sure it exists in the first place? > When we moved into our new house we had expected to bring my daughter's 4 ft > ball python with us, but the city has banned "all constrictor snakes" > without a special permit. Willing to pay for the permit I attempted to get > one, only to be told that it doesn't exist and nobody has the authority to > create it. States, cities, etc. have their loopholes to prevent people from > keeping this stuff, the special permit thing is all a bunch of crap. After > months of fighting this I discovered I would have an easier time getting a > permit to keep an elephant because one already exists and can be applied > for. > Be leery when there is mention of "special permits" for any pet... > especially when its a species that is not commonly in demand such as at > animal rescues and etc. > > I also found out in that battle that we are not allowed to keep any species > of cephilopod (squid and octopus), any species of shark (fresh or > saltwater), and any species of sting ray. The same "special permit" > loophole applies to all of these animals too. For me to own any of those > species I would first have to move to an area that allows them. The price > for getting caught with them is thousands of dollars and mandatory jail > time. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Hi Bruce, > > > > I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good > one -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes > from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an > especially good law when it impacts the hobbyists of the State as much as it > does since it only allows certain species as being legal, on a very narrow > list of possible aquarium species, excluding numerous other possible > aquarium fishes which could never survive in latitudes as far north as Maine > let alone "displace" the native species. > > > > The Rift Lake species (and ESPECIALLY the Rift Lake species which have a > inert low tolerance to any different temperatures much outside of that in > which they evolved -- and that environment range is narrow) which I referred > to could never survive under the ice of the lakes and ponds of the State, > and while the rivers may not freeze over, it's extremely dubious that they > could adapt to a riverine environment if they could withstand the cold -- > which they definitely could not. There was no consideration even, for the > specialized dentition of these many fishes, nor their very specific feeding > requirements associated with each species' dentition which they evolved with > to be able to utilize the very specific niches of feeding environments of > scraping specific types of algae for the aufwichs they live on. > > > > It would have served both the State and the aquarium hobbyists of the > State much better if instead of a blanket law outlawing all but a select few > aquarium species, that a more select (and much smaller) list be drawn up > specifically targetting any and all prospective problematic fishes known to > or even suspected (after some intelligent research, if necessary) of being a > possible threat in establishing themselves in the native waters of the State > with any possibility of impacting the native species in any manner. By > blanketting most of the known freshwater fish species and only allowing a > comparatively small number, this is of course much easier and more > convenient, but it demonstrates no concern for hobbyists and is totally > unnecessary when the majority of the possible aquarium fishes that were left > off of this list could never survive these frigid waters at this time of > year. > > > > While you may have been told that fish not on the list can be allowed for > in maintaining them in one's home aquarium if they are so desired, and itf > they submit an application for a permit acting as a waver in this law, what > you apparently were not told was that for each permit being applied for -- > and EACH species needs a seperate application -- there is a high fee to be > collected by the State even before it is reviewed. As there is but a > relative handful of allowable (and most common) Rift lake species on the > list, these fees could fast build up on the hobbyist when (IF) he chooses to > keep even a small number of other less frequently seen (but perhaps more > desireable) other species. Then, even if these species were allowed, the > hobbyist could only maintain these certain other Rift Lake species for the > rest of his or her life. To sell or trade these species with the idea of > trying some other species new to the hobbyist -- which many of us enjoy > doing from time to time -- would not be allowed unless more applications for > permits for EACH new Cichlid species not on the list be submitted. Of > course the approved one may be sold at any time, but any new fishes would be > out of the question until other high fees were paid. The State may add > handsomely to their treasury this way, unless the hobbyists remain only with > being able to keep the few fish on the allowable list. > > > > In effect, if the hobbyist wants to purchase a fish not on this list, he > or she must first pay a "penalty" for keeping them -- even though they pose > NO danger to the environment. To me, this law is too restrictive and > serving no good purpose when it UNNECESSARILY adversely affects the pursuit > of happiness of the hobbyist -- unless the hobbyist pays the State for his > or her constitutional right. I see it as unfair when the State doesn't take > the time to deem exactly which fish only need to be restricted from being > imported, which seems obvious as not being very concerned. Why should a > hobbyist have to pay to be able to keep a non-threatening aquarium fish of > their choice? Will the State soon impose a law requiring a pet owner to > apply for a permit to keep their canary? What's next? > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@> wrote: > > > > > > I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good > > > law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native > > > species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. > > > > > > However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the > > > list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those > > > fish that do not need permits to import. > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50411	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

Yes my raccoons even mess with plant-only tanks outside. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Emma Caccia Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 10:44 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies we live in the woods so that i couldn't risk having them getting eaten ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:13:04 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her >will > > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think >you'll > > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies >first > > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the >guppies? > > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50412	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish

Or if it is a tub, just put a cover on it. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 10:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish tub Emma, I have 3 cats in my house and 5 outside. I have a kiddie pool with guppies and mosquito fish, 3 tubs of various guppies, a fish tank with no lid with goldfish - those are all outside. Inside I have a stand with 2 shelves - the upper shelf is near a window sill - the cats jump up there to drink out of the tank. On the bottom shelf is a 10 gallon with Endler livebearers - the dogs drink out of that one. Darned pets - I give them fresh water twice a day but they still prefer fish water lol. Anyway, you get the idea. The cats like to watch the fish sometimes, but for the most part ignore them. Maybe because they have always been around them, I don't know. I think a cat may be able to catch a betta in a bowl but I do not think they could catch a goldfish in a tub. The goldfish could easily swim away from them. Now raccoons - that's another story. If you have raccoons DO NOT put fish you care about outside unless you have a 3 feet deep pond. Even then it is iffy. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 5:19:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? what i am afriad of is that our cat will figure out how to open the lid and get a tasty goldfish snack ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:45:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Well no one says that you have to keep fish in a glass/acrylic aquarium LOL. Some people use rubber maid storage tubs for longer than just a temporary home. The fish don't mind not being able to see through the plastic ;) If you want to make it "pet safe" you can use the lid but drill holes in it so it allows some air circulation. Some rubbermaid containers even have clear spots in the lids, so you could use a light (as long as it's not right against the plastic, it may melt it over time). Amber On 2/4/2011 4:56 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change > the filter > pad allot > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap > floating > plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do > regular > water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably > i hate it > whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i > get a > bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 > years but he > is getting quit big > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they > are doing > fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but > 50's and > > 60's during the day. > > You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some > plants in > there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed > this time of > > year. > > I do not feed them - they eat the plants. > > Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been > doing to well > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At > least a 30 gallon, minimum. > > Amber > > On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > > all right > > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > > in my five > > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > > beside a jar. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > > keeping > > > bettas together! > > > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > > wound up > > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > > expecting to do so > > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > > second > > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > > removing the > > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > > missing a > > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > > get quite > > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > > "bitey" fish > > > and later found out they were females. > > > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > > overcrowded like > > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > > months Feb. > > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > > female. We > > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > > and > > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > > bowls > > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > > all of them > > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > > takers for > > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > > bathroom into a > > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > > but I can't > > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > > fry tank > > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > > didn't seem > > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > > looked really > > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > > Others are > > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > > Craigslist and > > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > > still have > > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > > taking all > > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > > them to > > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > > group of > > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > > together, > > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > > aggressive fish. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >>+ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃ つｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > > > bettas in >>aﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃ つｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > 10-gal > > > > > > > >>tank?ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯ ﾃつｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > Showing my ignorance here, but > > > >I thought you > > > >couldn't > > have more than one > > > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > > don't have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > >>Daniﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδ･ﾃ｢竄ｬﾂ｡ﾃ｢竄ｬ窶愿δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｩﾃ｢竄ｬﾅ｡ﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｸﾃδｦﾃつｴﾃつ･ﾃδ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖ηｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｽﾃつ｢ﾃδｧﾃつｫﾃ｢竄ｬﾅｾﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ｢竄ｬﾂｦﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｬﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δｯﾃつｿﾃつｽﾃδｧﾃつｪﾃつｶﾃδｯ ﾃつｽﾃつｦﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ｡ >> >ﾂ｡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ A great way to share experience & >ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ>.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ ｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > >ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. , > >.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつ ｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ<ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. > > , > >.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..<ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｾﾃ�窶凖δ｣ﾃｯﾂｿﾂｽﾃつ､ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃ つｸ. > >. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ>.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > >> > > > ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. , >.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..><((((ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ<ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > >. > , >.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ..<ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｺ((((><ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｴﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｯ`ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｷ.ﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸﾃδｯﾃつｽﾃつｸ. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ｷ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.><((((ｺ>.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ><((((ｺ> ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..><((((ｺ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ｺ((((><.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ<ｺ((((><ｸ.ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸ. , .ｷｴｯ`ｷ..<ｺ((((><ｷｴｯ`ｷ.ｸｸ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50413	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish

we do not have a pond we have a swamp ________________________________ From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 10:48:55 AM Subject: WAS Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish? -now glodfish tub Emma, I have 3 cats in my house and 5 outside. I have a kiddie pool with guppies and mosquito fish, 3 tubs of various guppies, a fish tank with no lid with goldfish - those are all outside. Inside I have a stand with 2 shelves - the upper shelf is near a window sill - the cats jump up there to drink out of the tank. On the bottom shelf is a 10 gallon with Endler livebearers - the dogs drink out of that one. Darned pets - I give them fresh water twice a day but they still prefer fish water lol. Anyway, you get the idea. The cats like to watch the fish sometimes, but for the most part ignore them. Maybe because they have always been around them, I don't know. I think a cat may be able to catch a betta in a bowl but I do not think they could catch a goldfish in a tub. The goldfish could easily swim away from them. Now raccoons - that's another story. If you have raccoons DO NOT put fish you care about outside unless you have a 3 feet deep pond. Even then it is iffy. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 5:19:58 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? what i am afriad of is that our cat will figure out how to open the lid and get a tasty goldfish snack ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:45:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? Well no one says that you have to keep fish in a glass/acrylic aquarium LOL. Some people use rubber maid storage tubs for longer than just a temporary home. The fish don't mind not being able to see through the plastic ;) If you want to make it "pet safe" you can use the lid but drill holes in it so it allows some air circulation. Some rubbermaid containers even have clear spots in the lids, so you could use a light (as long as it's not right against the plastic, it may melt it over time). Amber On 2/4/2011 4:56 PM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > i don't know goldfish are pretty messy aren't they we have to change > the filter > pad allot > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:47:15 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > You could even use a storage tub in your house. Just put some cheap > floating > plants in it. Still should not need a filter for just 1 fish if you do > regular > water changes. You can change 1/4 to 1/3 of the water each week. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 5:31:36 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > i live near albany but out in the country so that would not be doably > i hate it > whenever fish die but in less we move to californiasomtime soon or i > get a > bigger fish tank to put him in but he has lived in that tank for 2 > years but he > is getting quit big > > ________________________________ > From: Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@... > <mailto:environmom95112%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 8:00:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Emma, where do you live? I have goldfish outside in a big tub - they > are doing > fine, but I'm in California. It has been in the low 30's at night, but > 50's and > > 60's during the day. > > You can get a tub really cheap at Home Depot or Target. Put some > plants in > there, water conditioner, and the little goldfish. No filter needed > this time of > > year. > > I do not feed them - they eat the plants. > > Please don't just let the poor guy suffer. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 3:47:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > I know it will probably stunt and die soon any way it has not been > doing to well > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 12:59:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > Eek that goldfish needs way more room than that tiny 5 gallon tank! At > least a 30 gallon, minimum. > > Amber > > On 2/4/2011 4:37 AM, Emma Caccia wrote: > > > > i was thinking of putting them in my moms old fish bowl would that be > > all right > > i don't have any more room in my ten gallon and my sis has a goldfish > > in my five > > gallon so that is the only thing i have that i could put them in > > beside a jar. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 7:45:48 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > Take Two, They're Small ! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > were do you live i might be able to take a male > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers haecklers@... > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 8:47:33 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cory fry and angelfish - ? > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's a prying question, and I'd certainly not recommend > > keeping > > > bettas together! > > > > > > We bred two of our bettas, a homeschool project for my daughter. We > > wound up > > > with over 200 fry, which pretty much all survived (we weren't > > expecting to do so > > > well!). About a month ago the tank was way too crowded so I started a > > second > > > 10-gallon on my kitchen counter and moved half in there. We were > > removing the > > > aggressive ones whenever we caught them nipping somebody (still are > > missing a > > > few - some of them are missing chunks of fin). We've had some males > > get quite > > > big and not show any signs of aggression, we've also removed some > > "bitey" fish > > > and later found out they were females. > > > > > > They don't all grow at the same rate, especially when they're > > overcrowded like > > > ours were so while some are already big enough for pet stores (at 3 > > months Feb. > > > 7th) others are still too small to determine if they are male or > > female. We > > > made 2 large grow-out containers from plastic storage bins with tuille > > and > > > cross-stitch canvas separators, each holds 12 fish, plus have jars and > > bowls > > > sitting everywhere but still don't have the capacity to separate out > > all of them > > > so if they're well-behaved they are staying in the tank until we find > > takers for > > > some of the bigger or more aggressive ones. We turned the kid's > > bathroom into a > > > temporary fish room, adding a space heater to keep the air 80F. > > > > > > > > > I think the breeders must cull a lot to have room for large spawns, > > but I can't > > > bring myself to do it (tho the Jack Dempseys in the tank next to the > > fry tank > > > would be more than willing to help out!). Plus some that I thought > > didn't seem > > > too promising are now looking really interesting - like some that > > looked really > > > lackluster are getting their iridescence and it's a mauve purple! > > Others are > > > red/white/blue/black streaky butterfly. > > > > > > 200 bettas can be an overwhelming problem - we've posted ads on > > Craigslist and > > > freecycle, gave away about 40 before they were even very big, but > > still have > > > just too many fish for the amount of space we have. Tomorrow we're > > taking all > > > the females we can catch to a local fish store and just giving them to > > them to > > > keep in a tank and see if they can sell them. I think if people get a > > group of > > > them, there's a good chance they may continue to get along in one tank > > together, > > > I've heard of that happening, and these don't seem to be crazy > > aggressive fish. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Danielle Brown dbrown1973@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry - I have a prying question: Why do you have 80 1" >>+я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜ея╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜бя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мчк╢цД┐╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜йя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜бя╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г уБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜бя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛Г >> уБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜б >> >я╛Вя╜б > > > > bettas in >>aя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜ея╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜бя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мчк╢цД┐╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜йя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜бя╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г уБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜бя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛Г >> уБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜б >> >я╛Вя╜б > > 10-gal > > > > > > > >>tank?я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜ея╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜бя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мчк╢цД┐╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜йя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜бя╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я ╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜бя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢х ЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜п >> я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜б >> >я╛Вя╜б > > Showing my ignorance here, but > > > >I thought you > > > >couldn't > > have more than one > > > > > > > > in a tank together, or are these all females or something? (You > > don't have to > > > > answer - I just *had* to ask lol) > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > >>Daniя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜ея╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜бя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мчк╢цД┐╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜йя╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜бя╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я ╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜жя╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛ГуБдя╜ея╛Г╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬╖я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜вя╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜ля╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Ея╜╛я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя╜вчлДя╜мя╛Вя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜бя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢х ЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜мя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜┐я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г╬┤я╜зя╛ГуБдя╜кя╛ГуБдя╜╢я╛Г╬┤я╜п >> я╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜жя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜б >> >я╛Вя╜б > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife >я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖ > A great way to share experience & > >ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛Г уБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║>.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя ┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБд > я╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜ ╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║> > >> > >я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛Г уБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕. > > >. , > >.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖..><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜ ╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║> > > >> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜ я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя ┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБд > я╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕<я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛В я╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕. > >. > > , > >.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖..<я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я ╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Г я┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╛я╛Гя┐╜чк╢хЗЦ╬┤я╜гя╛Гя╜пя╛Вя╜┐я╛Вя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜дя╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛Г > уБдя╜╕. > >. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖ A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║>.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя ╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║> > > >> > > >я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕. >. , > >.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖..><((((я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕<я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я ╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕. > > >. > , >.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖..<я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜║((((><я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜┤я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜п`я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╖.я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕я╛Г╬┤я╜пя╛ГуБдя╜╜я╛ГуБдя╜╕. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife я╜╖ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕я╜╕.><((((я╜║>.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕я╜╕.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕><((((я╜║> я╜╕.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕. , .я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖..><((((я╜║> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <я╜║((((><.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕я╜╕.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕<я╜║((((><я╜╕.я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕. , .я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖..<я╜║((((><я╜╖я╜┤я╜п`я╜╖.я╜╕я╜╕. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50414	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

I live near Albany NY ________________________________ From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 11:20:30 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies I did the same thing with my guppies and they became beautiful. I have pink lotus seeds in enough of a quantity that I can give you five if you want, they flower pink. Or if you want different colors maybe we could trade. Email me at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com, and put lotus in the sublect line. Bren in MI Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:13:04 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her >will > > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > >________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think >you'll > > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies >first > > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the >guppies? > > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50415	From: Teegra	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: New to fish and tanks.

Hello evryone! I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. Thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50416	From: haecklers	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I think I spend the most time gazing into my 5-gallon tank. It's heavily planted with vallisneria, cabomba, elodea, and Christmas moss and has red cherry shrimp, a stunted betta fry, two small kuhli loaches, a clam, and several kinds of snails. The shrimp seemed a little like icky bugs when I first got them but they swim really gracefully. If you want an intelligent and interesting fish for that small tank, I recommend a betta fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > Hello evryone! > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > Thanks. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50417	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Koi are not aquarium fish. They require a pond. They will grow to 48". The coloration patterns are meant to be viewed from above the fish, not from the side. You do not mention what part of the country you are from, but this winter it may not matter, since it seems to be cold ad at least icy wherever you look. However, it is a good time to start planning your pond. There are a lot of options available. You could get one of those fiberglass ponds that get sunk into the ground, but you are limited to the size, shape, and depth. You could dig your own, giving you unlimited options as to size, shape and depth. You could hire someone who does this type of work with the limitation being the size of your bank account. You have 3 koi right now. You'll need to decide whether you will remain with just three, or increase your collection over time. A pond is not like a tank. You cannot simply go out and say, one day, that I need a larger pond, hop down to the store and buy one. They are also very hard to find on eBay, Craigslist, and/or Freecycle. If you have the room, you may be able to build another, and even connect the two via stream or water fall or some other such solution, but it is very difficult to expand an existing one otherwise. You'll probably need something like 3,000 gallons for the three fish you have. That's a lot of water. Filtration and water pumps are another consideration. While the principles are the same as for your aquarium filters, those for a good sized pond are a magnitude larger than that Hang off the back filter or a canister filter. They will generally be large and boxy, and need to be set a bit from the pond so that plantings can hide it from public view Find yourself a good pond book, and start cogitating on the subject so you will be ready to go when the ground can be worked. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Teegra Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:20 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] New to fish and tanks. Hello evryone! I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. Thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50418	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Dawn, Around here there are apartment buildings and complexes that have more than 2500 people <g>. However, I do come from a small town (they recently hit the 3,000 population mark), so I know what it is like. There are some states that have laws in effect that ban such ordinances, though cities and towns continue to put them into effect., only to be forced to rescind them, often through court action. You may want to look into this at the state level, and do not be deterred by the bureaucrats, many feel they are paid to be obstructions no matter where you stand on an issue. If you cannot find such legislation, talk with your state representative and senator about proposing such legislation, without a grandfather clause. This will probably be a long term effort, as it is not likely to get far the first time. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 11:31 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. Steve, On paper/in writing that sounds great, however... who has that kind of money, especially today? I know I don't. I also don't have a lawyer who would be willing to take on such a case. I live in a city with a population of less than 2500 people. This is not the only city with such laws around here. The biggest part of this battle has been that the species such as the snakes, that are banned, are legal within the state, just illegal within the city due to an ordinance. This ordinance was written/drafted, and supported by the city attorney. Trying to find a lawyer to fight the city attorney would be impossible here... in a small town like this, those kinds of battles are near impossible to win. Nobody wants to take on the city attorney and then still need to live here. When I started this fight I went as high up as the Department of Agriculture and even the Senator's and Governor's offices. Everywhere I went I was told the same thing... no such permit exists and nobody holds a job that entitles them to create it, therefore its unattainable. I was told that if I didn't like it, really needed to keep such a species, then I should move to a place where they are allowed/legal. As long as that species remains legal on the state level, there is nothing more I can do about it unless I win a lottery large enough to fund a legal battle that I would still likely lose. So... I bide my time until I can move, which won't be for probably another 10 yrs... at which time I will no longer be physically capable of keeping some of the animals I so desire. You are correct about the unfounded reasoning behind these laws/ordinances. There is no sense in something such as this. If the stinger were removed from a small teacup sting ray it would be rendered harmless... yet it would still be illegal to keep here. I can't afford to spend jail time to make a point that just isn't going to be made in a place like this. On the other hand... there are enough idiots out there to warrant a ban on specific species, such as the blue ring octopus. I got a request a couple of yrs ago from the owner of a bowling alley in the next town. He wanted the large aquarium at the bowling alley set up to house a blue ring octopus and he wanted me to maintain it. All I could do was laugh at him, especially after he said he planned to do it even without my help. I told him, "good luck with that". What is the point in such a thing? Why would anyone with any level of intelligence attempt such a thing? So I understand where many of these laws came from, its just the way it was handled that borderlines insane and is unconstitutional. I really do wish I had the money to fight these stupid laws, not just because I desire to keep the animals myself, but to throw the idiots for a loop when it comes to abuse of their political power. It would be a huge victory for so many... but then what problems would it open up for the dumb ones who try to keep the blue ring octopus in a public recreational setting? All it would bring is more stupid laws that abuse political power. Its an endless cycle. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > You could probably sue the city for allowing people to get a permit for > certain animals, then not having any mechanism set up to issue (or deny) > such a permit. All you need is some time and money to do so. Winning means > that you can probably recover the legal fees as well. > > A lot of these laws also step all over the Constitution of the US and/or the > state. Several localities have had at least parts of these laws an > ordinances overturned on constitutional grounds. > > Many pieces of legislation like the one you ran up against have their > genesis with animal rights organizations, and get pushed through quickly > with the help of a beholden politician or two so the opposition does not > have time to properly respond. The logic behind a lot of this stuff is, to > be kind, faulty, and most of them do not have any basis in science and very > little basis in fact (again, to be kind). > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:34 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature > which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > > Ray, very well written! > If I may add to this my own nightmare with "special permits" for pets that > are banned... > If you call to get this permit, are you sure it exists in the first place? > When we moved into our new house we had expected to bring my daughter's 4 ft > ball python with us, but the city has banned "all constrictor snakes" > without a special permit. Willing to pay for the permit I attempted to get > one, only to be told that it doesn't exist and nobody has the authority to > create it. States, cities, etc. have their loopholes to prevent people from > keeping this stuff, the special permit thing is all a bunch of crap. After > months of fighting this I discovered I would have an easier time getting a > permit to keep an elephant because one already exists and can be applied > for. > Be leery when there is mention of "special permits" for any pet... > especially when its a species that is not commonly in demand such as at > animal rescues and etc. > > I also found out in that battle that we are not allowed to keep any species > of cephilopod (squid and octopus), any species of shark (fresh or > saltwater), and any species of sting ray. The same "special permit" > loophole applies to all of these animals too. For me to own any of those > species I would first have to move to an area that allows them. The price > for getting caught with them is thousands of dollars and mandatory jail > time. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Hi Bruce, > > > > I don't mean to refute your claim that you feel this law is a very good > one -- except to say that it may be good in preventing any non-native fishes > from getting established in Maine waterways. It's certainly not an > especially good law when it impacts the hobbyists of the State as much as it > does since it only allows certain species as being legal, on a very narrow > list of possible aquarium species, excluding numerous other possible > aquarium fishes which could never survive in latitudes as far north as Maine > let alone "displace" the native species. > > > > The Rift Lake species (and ESPECIALLY the Rift Lake species which have a > inert low tolerance to any different temperatures much outside of that in > which they evolved -- and that environment range is narrow) which I referred > to could never survive under the ice of the lakes and ponds of the State, > and while the rivers may not freeze over, it's extremely dubious that they > could adapt to a riverine environment if they could withstand the cold -- > which they definitely could not. There was no consideration even, for the > specialized dentition of these many fishes, nor their very specific feeding > requirements associated with each species' dentition which they evolved with > to be able to utilize the very specific niches of feeding environments of > scraping specific types of algae for the aufwichs they live on. > > > > It would have served both the State and the aquarium hobbyists of the > State much better if instead of a blanket law outlawing all but a select few > aquarium species, that a more select (and much smaller) list be drawn up > specifically targetting any and all prospective problematic fishes known to > or even suspected (after some intelligent research, if necessary) of being a > possible threat in establishing themselves in the native waters of the State > with any possibility of impacting the native species in any manner. By > blanketting most of the known freshwater fish species and only allowing a > comparatively small number, this is of course much easier and more > convenient, but it demonstrates no concern for hobbyists and is totally > unnecessary when the majority of the possible aquarium fishes that were left > off of this list could never survive these frigid waters at this time of > year. > > > > While you may have been told that fish not on the list can be allowed for > in maintaining them in one's home aquarium if they are so desired, and itf > they submit an application for a permit acting as a waver in this law, what > you apparently were not told was that for each permit being applied for -- > and EACH species needs a seperate application -- there is a high fee to be > collected by the State even before it is reviewed. As there is but a > relative handful of allowable (and most common) Rift lake species on the > list, these fees could fast build up on the hobbyist when (IF) he chooses to > keep even a small number of other less frequently seen (but perhaps more > desireable) other species. Then, even if these species were allowed, the > hobbyist could only maintain these certain other Rift Lake species for the > rest of his or her life. To sell or trade these species with the idea of > trying some other species new to the hobbyist -- which many of us enjoy > doing from time to time -- would not be allowed unless more applications for > permits for EACH new Cichlid species not on the list be submitted. Of > course the approved one may be sold at any time, but any new fishes would be > out of the question until other high fees were paid. The State may add > handsomely to their treasury this way, unless the hobbyists remain only with > being able to keep the few fish on the allowable list. > > > > In effect, if the hobbyist wants to purchase a fish not on this list, he > or she must first pay a "penalty" for keeping them -- even though they pose > NO danger to the environment. To me, this law is too restrictive and > serving no good purpose when it UNNECESSARILY adversely affects the pursuit > of happiness of the hobbyist -- unless the hobbyist pays the State for his > or her constitutional right. I see it as unfair when the State doesn't take > the time to deem exactly which fish only need to be restricted from being > imported, which seems obvious as not being very concerned. Why should a > hobbyist have to pay to be able to keep a non-threatening aquarium fish of > their choice? Will the State soon impose a law requiring a pet owner to > apply for a permit to keep their canary? What's next? > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@> wrote: > > > > > > I live in Maine and the law you speak of is in fact is a very good > > > law. It came in play after people started introducing non-native > > > species into the Maine waterways displacing native species. > > > > > > However, what you weren't told was that you can import fish not on the > > > list. All you need to do is apply for a permit. The list is only those > > > fish that do not need permits to import. > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50419	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: guppies

let me know what colors you want when there born and have there color i will let you know what i have i have three in the tank right now ________________________________ From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 11:20:30 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies I did the same thing with my guppies and they became beautiful. I have pink lotus seeds in enough of a quantity that I can give you five if you want, they flower pink. Or if you want different colors maybe we could trade. Email me at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com, and put lotus in the sublect line. Bren in MI Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:13:04 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies In the summer you can put them outside in a tub of water. Just let it sit a few weeks and "season" first, and wait until the weather is warm enough. They thrive outdoors and the colors get really bright. In fact, it's close enough now to summer any fry that do survive won't be too big to overcrowd the tank until it's warm enough to keep them outdoors. We've done it 3 years in a row now. They don't need a pump or filter or anything. I used those 15 gallon tubs they sell for around $6 - the kind that have the rope handles on the sides. Put in some decorations from the tank (or rocks if you have them) for the denitrifying bacteria. They don't even need to be fed outdoors - the sun makes algae grow and they eat mosquito larvae and little bugs that drop in the water. But if you do feed them they'll all crowd to the top whenever they see you begging for food - then you can see them! You'll have to catch them all and move them when the weather turns cool again. If your local freecycle allows it, you can post them there to find them new homes, or you can put an ad on craigslist. You'd be surprised at what you can keep outdoors. Betta fish really love being outside, and we've even put out bristlenose plecos and convict babies. Even when the tanks were overcrowded and the water level sank to half-full (around 7.5 gallons) due to evaporation the fish seemed really healthy. The only thing you have to watch out for is really hot days - then they'll either need some shade or you'll have to add ice cubes to bring down the water temperature. This summer we plan to change one of our flowerbeds to a fish bed - put up a retaining wall and put out 5 of those tubs, with compost around them and trailing flowers planted in the compost between the tubs. Each tub will have a different occupant - red cherry shrimp, bettas, guppies, cloning crayfish, etc. We may order lotus seeds again and grow them in the tubs. They get really big by the end of the summer! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi don't want them to get eaten and some will be smart enough to hid in the > plants so what will I do with the survivors I don't want to kill them and I > can't put them in a fish bowl and none of the pet stores we have around her >will > > by them back we have petco and petsmart around hear. And I breed rabbits so we > travel allot in the summer.What can i do with them when they are bigger. > > > > > >________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, February 4, 2011 9:02:49 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppies > > > For guppies it takes about 21 days for them to give birth. I don't think >you'll > > get too many fry - the mollies will probably eat them. > > If you do, get a betta fish to eat them, or a gourami if you have the room. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > Hi every body okay I have three guppies and three balloon bellied mollies >first > > > > > ? is how long does it take them to give birth both the mollies and the >guppies? > > > > > And the second ? is how do I get rid of the survivors with out killing them? > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50420	From: rachell7	Date: 2/5/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > Hello evryone! > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > Thanks. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50421	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Hi Rachell, I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@...> wrote: > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > Hello evryone! > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > Thanks. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50422	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. Hi Rachell, I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@...> wrote: > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > Hello evryone! > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > Thanks. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50423	From: haecklers	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

If you can get a good photo of the fish and take it to the pet store, or just try to describe it for them well, they can tell you what to buy. Some pet stores have stopped carrying medicine these days for some reason. I think Mardel's Maracyn or Maracyn II might work, but check the package. Some fish come with problems that can really bloom if you put them in an uncycled tank. It takes a few weeks for the good bacteria to build up in a new tank that will break down fish waste and render it harmless to the fish. Before that time, it's like they have to live in their toilet - not healthy for them. Adding live plants (even rooted stems of houseplants, if you have them) can help tremendously because the very things that poison the fish are food for plants and they'll use them up if you have enough in there. That's why fish stores have started selling lucky bamboo. If you lose that fish, I'd say do a 90% water change and let the tank run empty for a few days before getting any new fish. When you go to buy the replacement fish, look at all the fish in the tank. If all of them look healthy, you're probably getting a healthy fish. Here's what to look for - their fins should be upright, not clamped to their bodies. None of them should have any cottony or slimy looking stuff coming off of their bodies. The fins should be whole, there's a disease called fin rot to watch out for. Look at their mouths for cottony looking stuff, and look at their skin for white specks that look like salt or yellowish flecks. If these fish are just for your cats' amusement, were they feeder fish or the pet-quality kind? I tend to buy the feeders when I see a nice tank of them. They really suffer a lot of abuse so if you find healthy ones they are pretty hardy fish. Some people on this list really like goldfish and will scold you for putting one in a 10-gallon tank. Other alternatives for your cat's viewing pleasure are betta fish, guppies, dwarf clawed frogs, a school of neon tetras. If you want to go cheap, feeder guppies often mature into beautiful little fish, and rosy reds are hardy little minnows that are also rather attractive. Just remember to check the fish in the tank and only buy if the whole tank is healthy. I do think you'd enjoy the tank better if you put some sand in the bottom and a few aquatic plants in there. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@...> wrote: > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > Hello evryone! > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > Thanks. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50424	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books

Thanks everyone for your replies. The information will be put to good use. Now someone had in their reply a comment about magazines. This is something I never thought of, maybe because the internet has basically replaced then in a lot of circles. What would be the best magazines to get on the subject of freshwater and saltwater? Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50425	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

There are those on this List, some even among the other moderators, who subcribe to table salt whether iodized or not citing that the trace amount of iodine is of little concern for our fish -- which I can understand their point. As for me, I'd rather forego the use of iodine, especially as it's often included with salt containing anti-caking agents -- which I feel more strongly about eliminating whenever possible. As such, I usually recommend using a salt having no additives at all, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt which can be had in a 3 pound box for less than $2. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jkw1860@... wrote: > > Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > Hi Rachell, > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50426	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books

Bruce, In my estimation, by far the best magazine for freshwater aquarium info is TFH -- probably the best value for your money when weighing the information received with it. Up until fairly recently, there was a good magazine for saltwater called FAMA which also contained some freshwater articles. Now, this has been combined with Aquarium Fish magazine and been renamed Aquarium Fish International. Trying to cover both spectrums, I don't think it can do either of them justice since they're not concentrating on either facet, but's fairly good. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > Thanks everyone for your replies. The information will be put to good use. > > Now someone had in their reply a comment about magazines. This is > something I never thought of, maybe because the internet has basically > replaced then in a lot of circles. > > What would be the best magazines to get on the subject of freshwater > and saltwater? > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50433	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I am one of those that will recommend the use of table salt, but only in an emergency. If it is inconvenient for you to go out to the store to get some kosher (or canning) salt (distance) or if it is impossible to do so (store closed). I'd not use it on a regular basis though. The aquarium slat found in LFS and big box stores is a waste of your money. It is the same as kosher salt but sold at many times the price for adding aquarium in front of the word salt. Sea salt is another good substitute that one may have on hand for cooking and on the table. Marine mixes are my ideal salt, if I have some on hand because there are many trace elements added to it that your tank may actually need. However, I'd not go out and buy it as a medicinal salt. I'll only have it on hand if I am currently running a brackish tank. To veer off the topic of salt, someone, I think it was haeckler, mentioned that it is hard to find a store carrying medications. I cannot verify or deny his statement, but if that is a reality, it may be that medications have an expiration date on them, and enough may not be sold by that expiration date to make it worthwhile for them to keep it in stock. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:27 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. There are those on this List, some even among the other moderators, who subcribe to table salt whether iodized or not citing that the trace amount of iodine is of little concern for our fish -- which I can understand their point. As for me, I'd rather forego the use of iodine, especially as it's often included with salt containing anti-caking agents -- which I feel more strongly about eliminating whenever possible. As such, I usually recommend using a salt having no additives at all, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt which can be had in a 3 pound box for less than $2. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jkw1860@... wrote: > > Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerryR smartphone > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > Hi Rachell, > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50434	From: Ray	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Apologies, was; Magazines

Group, My sincere apologies to the group for sending a "few" extra duplicate messages on the magazines. After writing my message and hitting send, my computer gave me an error message that "The page cannot be displayed" (or some such wording), without ever giving me a message that my message was sent. So, I kept trying to send it -- each time getting the same error message, still with no indication that it had been sent. Good I didn't keep trying to send it all afternoon (I might have, if it was a lengthy one that I'd be reluctant to have to retype -- LOL). I did go back to the home page and eliminated all but the initial one, but I know, you're going to have to put your delete button to good use a few times to erase the number of emails. Sorry 'bout that. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Bruce, > > In my estimation, by far the best magazine for freshwater aquarium info is TFH -- probably the best value for your money when weighing the information received with it. Up until fairly recently, there was a good magazine for saltwater called FAMA which also contained some freshwater articles. Now, this has been combined with Aquarium Fish magazine and been renamed Aquarium Fish International. Trying to cover both spectrums, I don't think it can do either of them justice since they're not concentrating on either facet, but's fairly good. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@> wrote: > > > > Thanks everyone for your replies. The information will be put to good use. > > > > Now someone had in their reply a comment about magazines. This is > > something I never thought of, maybe because the internet has basically > > replaced then in a lot of circles. > > > > What would be the best magazines to get on the subject of freshwater > > and saltwater? > > > > Bruce > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50435	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I was wondering about the sea salt used for cooking. Also someone told me that the aquarium salt was the same as the pickling salt. We always have a bag of pickling salt on hand as my husband likes to pickle stuff! Lol, even broccoli! Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 12:46:16 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. I am one of those that will recommend the use of table salt, but only in an emergency. If it is inconvenient for you to go out to the store to get some kosher (or canning) salt (distance) or if it is impossible to do so (store closed). I'd not use it on a regular basis though. The aquarium slat found in LFS and big box stores is a waste of your money. It is the same as kosher salt but sold at many times the price for adding aquarium in front of the word salt. Sea salt is another good substitute that one may have on hand for cooking and on the table. Marine mixes are my ideal salt, if I have some on hand because there are many trace elements added to it that your tank may actually need. However, I'd not go out and buy it as a medicinal salt. I'll only have it on hand if I am currently running a brackish tank. To veer off the topic of salt, someone, I think it was haeckler, mentioned that it is hard to find a store carrying medications. I cannot verify or deny his statement, but if that is a reality, it may be that medications have an expiration date on them, and enough may not be sold by that expiration date to make it worthwhile for them to keep it in stock. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:27 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. There are those on this List, some even among the other moderators, who subcribe to table salt whether iodized or not citing that the trace amount of iodine is of little concern for our fish -- which I can understand their point. As for me, I'd rather forego the use of iodine, especially as it's often included with salt containing anti-caking agents -- which I feel more strongly about eliminating whenever possible. As such, I usually recommend using a salt having no additives at all, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt which can be had in a 3 pound box for less than $2. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jkw1860@... wrote: > > Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerryR smartphone > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > Hi Rachell, > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50436	From: jkw1860@yahoo.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Also, my sister gave me subscription to TFH for my birthday last year and I love this magazine. It has articles on freshwater fish and plants also there is articles on salt water tanks. I will be re- subscribing soon. Judy Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone -----Original Message----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 12:46:16 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. I am one of those that will recommend the use of table salt, but only in an emergency. If it is inconvenient for you to go out to the store to get some kosher (or canning) salt (distance) or if it is impossible to do so (store closed). I'd not use it on a regular basis though. The aquarium slat found in LFS and big box stores is a waste of your money. It is the same as kosher salt but sold at many times the price for adding aquarium in front of the word salt. Sea salt is another good substitute that one may have on hand for cooking and on the table. Marine mixes are my ideal salt, if I have some on hand because there are many trace elements added to it that your tank may actually need. However, I'd not go out and buy it as a medicinal salt. I'll only have it on hand if I am currently running a brackish tank. To veer off the topic of salt, someone, I think it was haeckler, mentioned that it is hard to find a store carrying medications. I cannot verify or deny his statement, but if that is a reality, it may be that medications have an expiration date on them, and enough may not be sold by that expiration date to make it worthwhile for them to keep it in stock. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 12:27 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. There are those on this List, some even among the other moderators, who subcribe to table salt whether iodized or not citing that the trace amount of iodine is of little concern for our fish -- which I can understand their point. As for me, I'd rather forego the use of iodine, especially as it's often included with salt containing anti-caking agents -- which I feel more strongly about eliminating whenever possible. As such, I usually recommend using a salt having no additives at all, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt which can be had in a 3 pound box for less than $2. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jkw1860@... wrote: > > Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerryR smartphone > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > Hi Rachell, > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50437	From: DeenerZ	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I M with Ray on the use of Kosher salt. I can usually spot it at dollar store or in bulk at box stores cheap. As much as I support the aquarium hobby I say save some money on this one. -mike g Sent from my iPhone On Feb 6, 2011, at 9:27 AM, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > There are those on this List, some even among the other moderators, who subcribe to table salt whether iodized or not citing that the trace amount of iodine is of little concern for our fish -- which I can understand their point. As for me, I'd rather forego the use of iodine, especially as it's often included with salt containing anti-caking agents -- which I feel more strongly about eliminating whenever possible. As such, I usually recommend using a salt having no additives at all, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt which can be had in a 3 pound box for less than $2. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jkw1860@... wrote: > > > > Don't use iodized table salt. Use aquarium salt or pickling salt will work also. > > Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry® smartphone > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 08:14:47 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > Hi Rachell, > > > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50438	From: pkvzookeeper	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Heaters and live plants

I just replaced my heater in my 55 and put the new one in a new spot. My tank is planted with some live plants. My question is: If the plants touch the heater will it hurt the plants? Any help would be great!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50439	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Neon tetras safe with small freshwater shrimp?

I was considering a small school of neon tetras for my 10 gallon tank that will have small shrimp in it. I wanted something more than just shrimp, but I want a fish that's not going to eat my shrimp! LOL. I figured neons are small enough that they shouldn't be able to eat any adult sized shrimp, will they actively hunt for the babies? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50440	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Heaters and live plants

I think that would depend on the plant itself, some plants are more sensitive to being touched and will break just by touching them. If you have hardier plants that have thicker stems and thicker leaves they might be just fine. My plants touch my heaters in my planted tanks (it's hard not to when they get over grown as well), and I have never noticed any problems with the plants when I trim them. I think it would also depend on how high you have your heater set. My heater rarely has to turn on as I keep the tank water temps close to my room temps in my house, so it only comes on when the temps drop below 76 in the room and the heater has to work a little to raise the temp in the tank back to 78. Several of my tanks don't even have heaters, since I keep my house so warm. I would keep an eye on the plants near the heater and if you see them changing color (like they are burning) then I would try moving the heater. Amber On 2/6/2011 9:07 AM, pkvzookeeper wrote: > > I just replaced my heater in my 55 and put the new one in a new spot. > My tank is planted with some live plants. My question is: If the > plants touch the heater will it hurt the plants? Any help would be great! > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50441	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Neon tetras safe with small freshwater shrimp?

Do you mean will they eat the baby shrimp? Possibly not as the shrimp will stay primarily in the bottom whereas the neons are middle swimmers. When I had the two of them together I never had issues. On the other hand if the neons are hungry... Alex Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 12:38:45 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Neon tetras safe with small freshwater shrimp? I was considering a small school of neon tetras for my 10 gallon tank that will have small shrimp in it. I wanted something more than just shrimp, but I want a fish that's not going to eat my shrimp! LOL. I figured neons are small enough that they shouldn't be able to eat any adult sized shrimp, will they actively hunt for the babies? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50442	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

> Now that I've learn to know just a little bit more about you from your few > messages you've posted thus far, I can understand your beginners position on > this since you may not even know enough about the numerous fishes left off > of the "allowable list" to have come to appreciate them or even to know what > they are. If you prefer not to agree with my stance, you're perfectly in > your rights to do so and it will not bother me in the least. That's your > prerogative and I still remain glad to know you. No problem Ray. But I would like to set the record on a couple of items. The State Legislator has nothing to do with the list. Its kept and managed by the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife. The $50.00 fee you talk about is for putting in a species up for review to be added to the list. I believe the permit cost $27. Its been a couple year since I've had one of these permits so I might be wrong on the cost. I get confused on occasion being I've held both state and federal wildlife propagation permits. The reason maybe the species you stated are not listed is that no one has applied for them. I don't a single aquarium owner outside of the Goldfish types here. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50443	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Magazines Was - Freshwater Aquarium Books

Thanks for the info. Bruce On 2/6/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > Bruce, > > In my estimation, by far the best magazine for freshwater aquarium info is > TFH -- probably the best value for your money when weighing the information > received with it. Up until fairly recently, there was a good magazine for > saltwater called FAMA which also contained some freshwater articles. Now, > this has been combined with Aquarium Fish magazine and been renamed Aquarium > Fish International. Trying to cover both spectrums, I don't think it can do > either of them justice since they're not concentrating on either facet, > but's fairly good. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: >> >> Thanks everyone for your replies. The information will be put to good use. >> >> Now someone had in their reply a comment about magazines. This is >> something I never thought of, maybe because the internet has basically >> replaced then in a lot of circles. >> >> What would be the best magazines to get on the subject of freshwater >> and saltwater? >> >> Bruce >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50444	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: Heaters and live plants

If the plants touch once in a while there is no reason to worry. If on the other hand they will be in constant contact the extra heat may hamper its growth. Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: "pkvzookeeper" <keptbythecats@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 18:07:09 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Heaters and live plants I just replaced my heater in my 55 and put the new one in a new spot. My tank is planted with some live plants. My question is: If the plants touch the heater will it hurt the plants? Any help would be great! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50445	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Bruce, The state legislature has everything to do with the law. If it were not for them, the law would not exist. They are the ones who handed the responsibility to the DNR to create and maintain the whitelist.. I do not know the law, so I do not know if the fees are set in the legislation, by the DNR, or by another part of the state bureaucracy, but it is still the state legislature who set it up. From what little I have learned here, you need to get together a group of fishy Mainiacs to get this fixed. If they must have such a law, have them amend the current law striking the whitelisting of fish and creating a blacklist of fish that can survive year 'round in Maine's waterways. There are not many aquarium fish I can think of off hand, but I'm sure goldfish and koi would have the capacity to do so. In such cases a permitting system can be created that would follow the fish throughout its life. There used to be a couple of clubs in Maine, but I have not heard anything from them in several years. A fish club may be a good place to start putting together an effort to change the law. If you do not know of any clubs, let me know, and I'll check around with some friends in the New England area. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Clark Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 3:11 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. > Now that I've learn to know just a little bit more about you from your few > messages you've posted thus far, I can understand your beginners position on > this since you may not even know enough about the numerous fishes left off > of the "allowable list" to have come to appreciate them or even to know what > they are. If you prefer not to agree with my stance, you're perfectly in > your rights to do so and it will not bother me in the least. That's your > prerogative and I still remain glad to know you. No problem Ray. But I would like to set the record on a couple of items. The State Legislator has nothing to do with the list. Its kept and managed by the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife. The $50.00 fee you talk about is for putting in a species up for review to be added to the list. I believe the permit cost $27. Its been a couple year since I've had one of these permits so I might be wrong on the cost. I get confused on occasion being I've held both state and federal wildlife propagation permits. The reason maybe the species you stated are not listed is that no one has applied for them. I don't a single aquarium owner outside of the Goldfish types here. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50446	From: Teegra	Date: 2/6/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

For those of you concerned it is possibale, although expensive to keep a koi in an aquarium. 100 gals or more. Some have done it with the fish being healthy and happy. This koi I read about liked to beg food the way an oscar would. It also would roll over for petting for its gaurdian. My koi are tiny still and will soon be moved to a 48 gal. That will also be temporary. I live in north idaho, and I have heard most people around here find it easier to bring there koi inside in the winter instead of building a pond over eight foot deep to avoid it freezing solid. Eventually a horse troughth will have to be used, and from there I will just have to be imaginitive. Or dig an eight foot deep pond. Will I have to take out the filter, for a betta? I have heard that moveing water will stress them. I was also considering useing the five gal as a quarintine tank, for fish that we will eventually stock in the bow front. Did you know that iredescent sharks get bigger then koi? Up to four feet and 100 pounds? spiritpaw

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50447	From: Ray	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Since you're aware that Iridescent Sharks (Pangasius hypopthalmus) can grow larger than Koi, and reach up to four feet, you must then be aware that Koi can also reach hugh proportions. As Koi can easily reach a minimum of 3' and can exceed a meter in length, what makes you say that even one of them can be housed in a 100 gallon tank? If you mean juvenile Koi, then perhaps you could keep no more than two 18" Koi or six 14" Koi in a 100 gallon tank, temporarily, just over the Winter -- but the tank would need to be kept in an unheated garage having a temperature of no more than 40 o to 45 o F, where these fish would still be in hibernation and not active. This would eliminate their need for feeding and would minimize their metabolism (and oxygen requirements), and waste production, yet would keep them better protected from the full effects of Winter when otherwise they'd have to wait this season out under the ice in more extreme cold temperatures. The average horse trough holds about 250 to 300 gallons and is about 24" to 26" wide. Even a large one is seldom (if ever) no more than 36" wide -- barely wide enough for an adult Koi to turn around in. If this temporary tank were in the basement, just in cool temperatures still requiring feeding of these fish, you may be able to temporarily keep no more than about ten 8" Koi. These fish are a fast growing species, and require large amounts of food to keep up with this growth (and produce large amounts of waste along with it) -- and large amounts of clean water at all times. During the Summer season, a 14" Koi can put on an additional 6" in length from April/May to October, showing you how fast they can grow, and giving you an idea of their requirements for doing so. These are pond fish and should be considered as such, supplying them with their outdoor needs. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > > > For those of you concerned it is possibale, although expensive to keep a koi in an aquarium. 100 gals or more. Some have done it with the fish being healthy and happy. This koi I read about liked to beg food the way an oscar would. It also would roll over for petting for its gaurdian. My koi are tiny still and will soon be moved to a 48 gal. That will also be temporary. I live in north idaho, and I have heard most people around here find it easier to bring there koi inside in the winter instead of building a pond over eight foot deep to avoid it freezing solid. Eventually a horse troughth will have to be used, and from there I will just have to be imaginitive. Or dig an eight foot deep pond. > > Will I have to take out the filter, for a betta? I have heard that moveing water will stress them. I was also considering useing the five gal as a quarintine tank, for fish that we will eventually stock in the bow front. Did you know that iredescent sharks get bigger then koi? Up to four feet and 100 pounds? > > spiritpaw >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50448	From: rachell7	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Thanks Ray! At first what I thought my fish had was ich,which is why I treated it with the ich medication. You also answered my question on how to clean my tank since it seems I will have to start over. I'm tossing the plants I have in it, I would rather spend a little extra money then have this again. Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Rachell, > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > Thanks. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50449	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I do know this now. Thats why I dont impulse buy fish without reaserching anymore. I bought my koi at walmart, where I work. I knew they got big, but I was thinking oscar size. But I always reasearch my critters deeply in order to provide the best care I can. I saw a video about them at the sakai fish farms, and was amazed with it. I love them even more now. But I was unaware of the size and space requirments. They also had fiddler crabs, fully submerged, and we learned they need land.So we set them up a little beach terrarium and got a couple. Since then I have gotten aproval to make care sheets up for costumers so they dont make such mistakes as I did. I learned the hard way. My koi are only 3 to 3 1/2 inches. We are going to move them to a 46 gal, in order to prevent their growth from being stunted. Unfortunetly I live on rented property. This might not be a problem because the property value increases with a pond, but I dont know where I would put one if my land lady allowed it. Either way, I am certainly not gona pawn them off on a pet store, like people do with oscars when they get to big. We are just gona keep upgradeing thier tank size. We would like to move to a place of our own anyways. For now any ideas would be apreciated. They are alot smaller then I have ever seen sold before, the size of small goldfish. How fast will they grow? And I noticed fish in ponds dont seem to get anywhere near as big as those raised in mud lakes. Do they have a certain amount of indeterminate growth?> Or is it always a life ending brown blood syndrome? I have grown up with the story that fish, esp,gold fish will only grow to the size of thier tank. I have only recently learned that this is a bad thing, and dont know all the ins and outs. I have found myths like this with all animals I have worked with. And from people who really care about thier animals. I dont belive banning animals from our society is the answer. Many animals have a simbiotic relationship with us, and if we cant live with the speicies of our own world then how will we ever be able to make first contact?LOL. Ok so thats going out there a lil, but it has inspired me to start an education site where people can learn to have thier companions thrive not just survive. I want my grand childrens grandchildren to know the joy of being a team and friend to another speicies. I will be starting work on this site soon.(and useing spell check) T

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50450	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

I see this new law as a great way to promote the aquarium hobbyist. Someone gets a permit, safely and humaely gathers a speicies and then starts captive breeding of them. That is the way it should be done. This way we have a wonderful variety of animals in our life, and the wild ones arent driven to near extinction by the pet trade. I do disagree with out right banning but this is a perfect happy medium. T

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50451	From: Teegra	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? T

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50452	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Stunting is caused from the excess hormones in their tank water, the only thing that will help prevent stunting is lots and lots of water changes. Daily or even twice daily would be better. What temps are you keeping them at right now? If they are inside try to keep them in your coolest room possible (below 65 at least, if you can). As I believe someone else suggested, a cool basement would be best. We all make mistakes, especially when we are learning about something for the first time. It's great that you're trying to fix your mistake and trying to improve the care of your Koi. Amber On 2/7/2011 12:34 PM, Teegra wrote: > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a > filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > T > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50453	From: Al Keep	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: its not lookin good...

hi all. my dwarf gourami hasnt been himself for days. from what ive read i'll have to put him down... but i thought i would check here first and wait till the morning. from what ive read the poor fella has iridovirus.... hes been laying on the floor and not swimming much... even at feeding time he doesnt seem interested. can anything be done or should i put him out of his misery? i could get some clove oil in the morning. thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50454	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...

What are your tank parameters? (pH, ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates for starters). These parameters may help us to figure out what is wrong with your fish, he may not be sick at all (possibly). Also how long has the tank been set up and running, and what temp. do you keep it at? If you could describe your filter cleaning (how often and how you clean it), sometimes people are doing something wrong and it can affect the fish, and make them seem sickly (or even cause them to get sick). Is he the only fish in the tank acting different? Amber On 2/7/2011 3:43 PM, Al Keep wrote: > > hi all. > my dwarf gourami hasnt been himself for days. > from what ive read i'll have to put him down... > but i thought i would check here first and wait till > the morning. > from what ive read the poor fella has iridovirus.... > hes been laying on the floor and not swimming much... > even at feeding time he doesnt seem interested. > can anything be done or should i put him out of his misery? > i could get some clove oil in the morning. > thanks. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50455	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/7/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...

Any other symptoms beside his laying on the bottom and being listless? How is he laying on the bottom, upright or on his side? Plus what Amber asked. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Keep Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 7:43 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] its not lookin good... hi all. my dwarf gourami hasnt been himself for days. from what ive read i'll have to put him down... but i thought i would check here first and wait till the morning. from what ive read the poor fella has iridovirus.... hes been laying on the floor and not swimming much... even at feeding time he doesnt seem interested. can anything be done or should i put him out of his misery? i could get some clove oil in the morning. thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50456	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Teegra, It would be very helpful if we knew whom you are talking to in your replies, and what messages you are replying to. None of your posts have even a part of the previous message attached with it to show what you're referring to. Please include at least the part (or whole, if need be) of the previous message you are writing about so that, that person is aware of where you're directing your remarks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > > I do know this now. Thats why I dont impulse buy fish without reaserching anymore. I bought my koi at walmart, where I work. I knew they got big, but I was thinking oscar size. But I always reasearch my critters deeply in order to provide the best care I can. I saw a video about them at the sakai fish farms, and was amazed with it. I love them even more now. But I was unaware of the size and space requirments. They also had fiddler crabs, fully submerged, and we learned they need land.So we set them up a little beach terrarium and got a couple. Since then I have gotten aproval to make care sheets up for costumers so they dont make such mistakes as I did. I learned the hard way. My koi are only 3 to 3 1/2 inches. We are going to move them to a 46 gal, in order to prevent their growth from being stunted. Unfortunetly I live on rented property. This might not be a problem because the property value increases with a pond, but I dont know where I would put one if my land lady allowed it. Either way, I am certainly not gona pawn them off on a pet store, like people do with oscars when they get to big. We are just gona keep upgradeing thier tank size. We would like to move to a place of our own anyways. For now any ideas would be apreciated. They are alot smaller then I have ever seen sold before, the size of small goldfish. How fast will they grow? And I noticed fish in ponds dont seem to get anywhere near as big as those raised in mud lakes. Do they have a certain amount of indeterminate growth?> Or is it always a life ending brown blood syndrome? I have grown up with the story that fish, esp,gold fish will only grow to the size of thier tank. I have only recently learned that this is a bad thing, and dont know all the ins and outs. > I have found myths like this with all animals I have worked with. And from people who really care about thier animals. I dont belive banning animals from our society is the answer. Many animals have a simbiotic relationship with us, and if we cant live with the speicies of our own world then how will we ever be able to make first contact?LOL. Ok so thats going out there a lil, but it has inspired me to start an education site where people can learn to have thier companions thrive not just survive. I want my grand childrens grandchildren to know the joy of being a team and friend to another speicies. I will be starting work on this site soon.(and useing spell check) > > T >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50457	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even more fascinating to watch and enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > T >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50458	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Rachell, By your remark that you will have to start over, might indicate to me that you've lost your goldfish. If so, I'm sorry to hear that. Not much can be done about such a situation -- except for learning from the experience and keeping the lessons you've learned in mind for when similar problems may come up with your next fish. At least in this way, your goldfish will not have died in vain if you can help your future fish from having this end. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray! At first what I thought my fish had was ich,which is why I treated it with the ich medication. You also answered my question on how to clean my tank since it seems I will have to start over. I'm tossing the plants I have in it, I would rather spend a little extra money then have this again. Thanks again for the help, I really appreciate it! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Hi Rachell, > > > > I'm not quite sure I understand this. Your fish has a fungal infection, yet you treated it with an Ich medication? Why would you treat one disease with a medication meant to treat for an entirely different disease? Medications have specific uses and should not be used indescriminently; one doesn't just dump any old medication in the tank hoping for a cure for something it's not designed to do. Did this fish first have Ich and has now progressed to having fungus, as can ocassionally happen? If so, then I can understand this medications use, but now you need to remove and replace this Ich medication designed for treating fungus. If not, this medication should not have been used in the first place, but you should change out at least 1/3 of the tank's water and replace it with fresh water to which you'll add a water conditioner to remove the chloramine in in. At this same time, put fresh carbon in the filter to remove the remainder of this medication, then remove the carbon just before adding a fungus medication. > > > > You can start with combining this new medication with a progressive salt treatment. Add 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon to the tank in the morning, and after supper, add another 1 teaspoon of salt per gallon. The following morning, add yet another teaspoon of salt per gallon. With this, you can use any one of several fungus medications of your choice, out of (1) Furan II (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Aquaruim Pharmaceuticals), (2) Liquid Fungus Cure (Acriflavin base -- by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals), (3) Fungus Clear "Tank Buddies" (Nitrafurazone/Furazolidone base -- by Jungle Labs), (4) Fungus Eliminator (Nitrafurazone/salt base -- by Jungle Labs) or (5) Fungus Guard (Triethylene Glycol/Potassium Chloride/Meth Blue base -- by Jungle Labs). Increase aeration if you can, but it's not completely necessary. > > > > If you lose him, like any other fatal fish disease, it's usually prudent to sterilize the tank and start over fresh -- even if it's not always needed. At least this way, you can help eliminate any further possibility of this occurring again -- although the fish themselves can bring spores in with them in the water they come in (don't dump their bag water in the tank). To sterilize, should it become necessary, add about 1/2 cup of bleach to the tank and let it stand overnight. The following day, remove the water and rinse well several times until you can no longer smell bleach. Refill the tank and add a water conditioner -- which should remove any remaining traces of the bleach. Of course, if you have plants in the tank, bleach would be out of the question, although you could remove the plants to soak them temporarily in a mild salt solution of no more than 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallon while the tank is being sterilized. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "rachell7" <rachell7@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm new to having fish, it's been years. I'm afraid you guys are a little more advanced then I am or want to be. I just want a couple of gold fish for my cats to watch. Problem is I've lost all but one so far and I doubt I can save him. I'm sure he has a fungal infection, I treated the tank with Super Ick cure yesterday and today he looks worse. He looks like his back end is cottony. Any suggestions? And if I lose him which I think is a good possibility, should I treat the water before putting more fish in or just empty out the tank (10 gallons) and start over? Thanks! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello evryone! > > > > I am a little new to fish and tanks, I have went through the first tank syndrome, and also lost my lil oscar ember to improper cycling(I Think)Now I have three 3 inch Koi in a ten gallon. They will be moved to a 46 GAL, and then when bigger we will either hopefully have a VERY big tank or a pond for them. They are doing surpriseingly well in the 10 gal right now and are very happy and healthy acting. Also We have a pleco in my 5.3 gal. He is very tiny about pinkie size and I have small pinkie. He will be moved to a 48 GAL bowfront, when it is set up. I have thought of guppies tetras and glo fish for my five gal. But I would rather have one pretty fish that is full of intelligence and personality then a coupke of scooling fish. I do realize the high mantienence of such a small tank, but am willing to do the very frequent water changes. It is an acrylic mini bow. > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50459	From: Ray	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Hi Bruce, Glad to see we're off to a good start here, and that we can discuss things with remaining amicable. As \\Steve//, states though, the State Legislature has everything to do with the law. I would even venture to say that, as the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife is a State (not Federal) institution, that it would have to abide by the State Legislature as having the final say in passing the laws, even if this Department first drafted this proposed list. That the $50.00 is only for reviewing the fish (possibly subject to being "lost" if the fish isn't approved) is exorbitant, when considering it is only being imposed because the Department (D. of I.F. & W.) did not take the proper amount of time and research to establish whether the fish in question was allowable when the list was first drawn up. To me, this shows a complete lack of concern for the hobbyists of the State, since it shouldn't be up to the hobbyists to have to add them to the list. On top of this $50 fee, I now note the Permit fee is an additional $27, for a total of $77.00 to have a fish approved which should have been on the list in the first place. That the State would now allow a fish to be on the approved list (after these fees are paid), shows right then and there that they were not diligent enough in the first place to have it on the list all along -- which it obviously should have been if they are now allowing it as not posing a threat to the wildlife. Why should the hobbyists have to suffer these fees because of the ineptness of those who drew up the far to exclusive white list. If the State wanted to do this properly, they should have at least consulted some experts since it's apparent that they didn't know much about those fish they excluded but are now suddenly allowing them as also belonging on the white list only after reviewing them further with collecting these fees. The hobbyist shouldn't have to pay for inefficient review of the Dep't when they first drew this list up; a more complete white list should have been part of their job. Something doesn't seem just & equitable here. As a taxpayer, you are paying this Department to draw up a list of allowable, inoffensive and non-threatening fish to be included on this white list of fish allowed for the aquarium, yet because of their lack of knowledge and concern about them, they leave half (or more?) of them off until you pay them to do more research. I see it as apathy towards the very citizens that are paying their salaries, not to mention it being next to extortion since these fish should not have been excluded at all if they're now deemed to be allowed. The Dep't did not do the homework they were paid to do, so they're now having the hobbyist pay for this work which they were unable to properly complete; they just didn't do their job. A blacklist of known offenders would have been much easier and direct, as \\Steve// also suggests. It's fair to say that perhaps most any temperate water fish may be able to survive Maine's Winter climate, but these extremes of temperatures would not be surviveable for tropical fishes. Just my opinion < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > No problem Ray. > > But I would like to set the record on a couple of items. > > The State Legislator has nothing to do with the list. Its kept and > managed by the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife. The $50.00 > fee you talk about is for putting in a species up for review to be > added to the list. > > I believe the permit cost $27. Its been a couple year since I've had > one of these permits so I might be wrong on the cost. I get confused > on occasion being I've held both state and federal wildlife > propagation permits. > > The reason maybe the species you stated are not listed is that no one > has applied for them. I don't a single aquarium owner outside of the > Goldfish types here. > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50460	From: Al Keep	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...

hi all. my water tests fine the tank has been running for 7 weeks now. i have a 20 g with an a/c 50 filter.... i rinse out the sponge in tank water once a week and replace the carbon every 4....2nd time will be in a week. i change 1/3 water twice a week. everyone else seems happy and themselves... including the female d/g.... i hope she didnt catch something. i also have a couple mollies a couple platties a couple guppies and a couple ghost shrimp. he lays on his side at the bottom....also last night he started swimming a bit in the same spot in a circle like a dog chasing his tail. its disheartening as hes my favourate...he used to watch me and play in the filter current when i came into the room....now he just lays there and gives me a look that seems to say " please put me out of my misery "

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50461	From: pfjane418	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Transferring goldfish to pond good?

Hello everybody! Since a week I've been the happy owner of my first goldfish, named Blitzy. Already when I purchased him he seemed tense and anger prone lol... I suggest he's just feeling captivated and wants to be free, so could some of you please tell me if it's good/better for a goldfish to be in a pond with other fish, bigger as well as smaller but no other goldfish, or is he better off staying where he is, whatever mood he's in? Also, I feed him Goldy Gran, soaked beforehand, worrying how much might be enough. It takes him a while to eat one, so in the morning I might give him 2 to 3 and then in the afternoon 1 or 2. Is that sufficient? Apart from that, he sometimes gets some bloodworms or larves. Thanks for any advice and suggestions! Jane

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50462	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Transferring goldfish to pond good?

He may be stressed from water conditions if the tank is cycling. Is it a freshly started tank? How many gallons? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "pfjane418" <pfjane418@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:43:56 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Transferring goldfish to pond good? Hello everybody! Since a week I've been the happy owner of my first goldfish, named Blitzy. Already when I purchased him he seemed tense and anger prone lol... I suggest he's just feeling captivated and wants to be free, so could some of you please tell me if it's good/better for a goldfish to be in a pond with other fish, bigger as well as smaller but no other goldfish, or is he better off staying where he is, whatever mood he's in? Also, I feed him Goldy Gran, soaked beforehand, worrying how much might be enough. It takes him a while to eat one, so in the morning I might give him 2 to 3 and then in the afternoon 1 or 2. Is that sufficient? Apart from that, he sometimes gets some bloodworms or larves. Thanks for any advice and suggestions! Jane [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50463	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

> Glad to see we're off to a good start here, and that we can discuss things > with remaining amicable. As \\Steve//, states though, the State Legislature > has everything to do with the law. I would even venture to say that, as the > Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife is a State (not Federal) > institution, that it would have to abide by the State Legislature as having > the final say in passing the laws, even if this Department first drafted > this proposed list. Ok, the state legislature thing is actually wrong. What has happened many many years ago due to the many laws that it would require to run the IF&W Department was the state legislature gave the department the able to write rules and that is what they do. I sure if you you tried to get a law introduced into the state legislature concerning the IF&W rule writing, the Commissioner would put a stop to it before it could get on the floor. The reason I say this is a couple of years ago they try to introduce a law that would increase the hunting limits on Moose. The IF&W did increase the limits a little, but the bill never made to the first reading. This is the same as the FWS, EPA and OSH have on the Federal level. Anything listed does not need any permits. If you get something added to the list, you do not need a permit. The only time you need a permit when you bring something into the state that is not listed. Example - If you really want get a raise out of the IF&W in the wrong way bring into the state Koi, which are not listed, and let them find out about it, however, I know of at least one Japanese restaurant that was able to get a permit for Koi. Just give them an inspections and a list of rules they had to follow. What I'm not sure of is buying something that is already within the state that is not listed. I know in wild waterfowl you have to fill out paperwork on every sale and spend a copy back to the state on that sale. The permit doesn't say anything about not being able to sale the off spring. The biggest problem with the way this rule is written is that it's written for the pet trade/pet stores which they do not trust at all. As far as the tax payer going. Must of the cost for running the IF&W comes from user fees and fines. What the tax payer pays for is the Biologists within the department. I've work with them over the years and they are really interested in making things right, but they are really over worked. They are the ones that would have to approve any changes to the list after they do their research on the change. There was one event last summer where the Game Wardens caught a person dumping his aquarium into a lake. You can guess what that caused. In this state the IF&W is a really big thing and is considered very important to the state due to the amount of wildlife and fisheries within the state and the money they bring in. The Game Wardens are the senior law enforcement agency. Bruce

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50464	From: Teegra	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. Teegra --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > T > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50465	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would ou

Ray, One thing I left out of my discussion, but would have a bearing, is the damage a non-native fish could do during the period of time it is released and the time it may be killed off by the temperature. Releasing a batch of livebearers may not do much harm, in that they would only reduce, to a small extent, the food supply for some species of native fish. (When I say livebearers, I am excluding some, such as Belonesox spp. That could do a great deal of damage to a population of smaller species, or the young of larger species.) It would be unlikely they would have much effect on native populations. They would likely die off during the winter, unless they happened to be in an area with a warm effluent from a factory or other facility that uses and/or processes water for return to the stream/river. However, if I were to release a number of Channa sp., that would be an entirely different story. They will survive over a wide temperature range, though it is not likely they would survive over a Maine winter unless, of course, they found a place like the fish mentioned above. They have the propensity to do extreme damage to a native population, even if they live for a few months. Even in establishing a Blacklist would entail a great deal of study and work. There would also be a mechanism to remove species from a blacklist as well as clear guidelines on what would constitute a fish that could be blacklisted. Again, I must state that I do not know the current law in Maine, nor have I taken the time to look for it. The best I can do is conjecture. I also would think it interesting to know the genesis of the law, and whether the AR movement had any influence in the preparation and passage of the bill into law. While they have thus far left our hobby pretty much alone, they do seem to be showing more interest in it, and we need to be alert to the proposals that may come up in our state legislatures and federally. Bills that affect our hobby need to be beaten down, or, at worst, amended to limit the harm they will do with a look at eventually repealing the law. Do keep in mind that not every law made is aimed at hurting the hobby. Some will inevitably improve it. Another tactic that AR groups have started using is to direct a bill for consideration to a committee that really has no jurisdiction or knowledge of the subjects covered in the bill for consideration. It is likely the committee will just pass the bill up to the body to which it belongs. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 8:33 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FW: [petlaw] PIJAC PetAlert re Hawaii Legislature which would outlaw the sale of Hawaiian aquatic species. Hi Bruce, Glad to see we're off to a good start here, and that we can discuss things with remaining amicable. As \\Steve//, states though, the State Legislature has everything to do with the law. I would even venture to say that, as the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife is a State (not Federal) institution, that it would have to abide by the State Legislature as having the final say in passing the laws, even if this Department first drafted this proposed list. That the $50.00 is only for reviewing the fish (possibly subject to being "lost" if the fish isn't approved) is exorbitant, when considering it is only being imposed because the Department (D. of I.F. & W.) did not take the proper amount of time and research to establish whether the fish in question was allowable when the list was first drawn up. To me, this shows a complete lack of concern for the hobbyists of the State, since it shouldn't be up to the hobbyists to have to add them to the list. On top of this $50 fee, I now note the Permit fee is an additional $27, for a total of $77.00 to have a fish approved which should have been on the list in the first place. That the State would now allow a fish to be on the approved list (after these fees are paid), shows right then and there that they were not diligent enough in the first place to have it on the list all along -- which it obviously should have been if they are now allowing it as not posing a threat to the wildlife. Why should the hobbyists have to suffer these fees because of the ineptness of those who drew up the far to exclusive white list. If the State wanted to do this properly, they should have at least consulted some experts since it's apparent that they didn't know much about those fish they excluded but are now suddenly allowing them as also belonging on the white list only after reviewing them further with collecting these fees. The hobbyist shouldn't have to pay for inefficient review of the Dep't when they first drew this list up; a more complete white list should have been part of their job. Something doesn't seem just & equitable here. As a taxpayer, you are paying this Department to draw up a list of allowable, inoffensive and non-threatening fish to be included on this white list of fish allowed for the aquarium, yet because of their lack of knowledge and concern about them, they leave half (or more?) of them off until you pay them to do more research. I see it as apathy towards the very citizens that are paying their salaries, not to mention it being next to extortion since these fish should not have been excluded at all if they're now deemed to be allowed. The Dep't did not do the homework they were paid to do, so they're now having the hobbyist pay for this work which they were unable to properly complete; they just didn't do their job. A blacklist of known offenders would have been much easier and direct, as \\Steve// also suggests. It's fair to say that perhaps most any temperate water fish may be able to survive Maine's Winter climate, but these extremes of temperatures would not be surviveable for tropical fishes. Just my opinion < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Clark <nnfmey@...> wrote: > > No problem Ray. > > But I would like to set the record on a couple of items. > > The State Legislator has nothing to do with the list. Its kept and > managed by the Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife. The $50.00 > fee you talk about is for putting in a species up for review to be > added to the list. > > I believe the permit cost $27. Its been a couple year since I've had > one of these permits so I might be wrong on the cost. I get confused > on occasion being I've held both state and federal wildlife > propagation permits. > > The reason maybe the species you stated are not listed is that no one > has applied for them. I don't a single aquarium owner outside of the > Goldfish types here. > > Bruce >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50466	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: its not lookin good...

Saying that your water tests fine means absolutely nothing. What we need to see are the numbers from your test kit. While your fish may really be near EOL, if there is something that can be done we need numbers from your tests. Ideally, a problem report should contain: Number and species of fish affected; Description of the condition you have noticed, leave nothing out--fading colors, ripped fins, external growths, etc.; Number and species of other fish in the tank; Size of the tank; Filtration; Water change amount & schedule; Filter type and cleaning schedule; Water conditioners/treatments used; Water parameters: Temperature in degrees; pH [number]; ammonia [number]; nitrites [number]; Any other facts that might be relevant--feedings, plants and any other aquascaping décor, amount of light, water color (especially with cloudy water), changes in behavior, etc. Posting a message containing information as listed above can save days of going back and forth trying to get enough information to be able to help. You can choose the order in which it is given, but try to keep similar observations we ask together. Also keep in mind that diagnosing a fish that is in front of you is a chancy proposition, and trying to do so long distance without seeing the fish or just seeing a photo of the fish in question is that much harder to do. The best we can do is to give you our best guess based on the information you have provided. It also helps us a lot if we have at least the message you are replying to so we can refresh our minds with the subject and what has been said. You will notice many messages here are presented just in that manner, sometime with much of what has been said. It saves us time in the we do not need to track back to find previous messages in the thread. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Al Keep Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 7:46 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: its not lookin good... hi all. my water tests fine the tank has been running for 7 weeks now. i have a 20 g with an a/c 50 filter.... i rinse out the sponge in tank water once a week and replace the carbon every 4....2nd time will be in a week. i change 1/3 water twice a week. everyone else seems happy and themselves... including the female d/g.... i hope she didnt catch something. i also have a couple mollies a couple platties a couple guppies and a couple ghost shrimp. he lays on his side at the bottom....also last night he started swimming a bit in the same spot in a circle like a dog chasing his tail. its disheartening as hes my favourate...he used to watch me and play in the filter current when i came into the room....now he just lays there and gives me a look that seems to say " please put me out of my misery "

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50467	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Transferring goldfish to pond good?

Jane, The best you can do for your goldfish is to provide him with enough room (a full grown goldfish requires at least 30 gallons of water per fish, something they probably did not tell you at the store) and the proper nutrition. Please do not try to read human traits into the way a fish looks or acts. A fish that is provided with what it needs can be considered a happy fish. A fish that is not will likely have a number of problems and/or illnesses while in your care. Diet should be mostly of vegetable matter, meat normally being gained accidentally if in a wild environment. They are a "dirty" fish, both in the amount of fecal matter released as well as the various compounds the will be passed into the water, mainly through the gills. This is why they need so much water, and consistent regular water changes of no less than 10% on a regular schedule. If you decide to house them with other fish, other goldfish are the best bet. Differences in water temperature they do best in and that tropicals do well in are far apart. For the most part, neither will do well in an environment suited to the other. If you have a pond available, or are planning one, it should be all goldfish, all koi, or all compatible tropicals. You do not mention where you are located, but if it is far enough north, you may need to be prepared to overwinter them out of the pond in a garage or basement. I hope that this is not scaring you off. Goldfish can make wonderful pets, and can be trained to a certain extent as well. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of pfjane418 Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:44 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Transferring goldfish to pond good? Hello everybody! Since a week I've been the happy owner of my first goldfish, named Blitzy. Already when I purchased him he seemed tense and anger prone lol... I suggest he's just feeling captivated and wants to be free, so could some of you please tell me if it's good/better for a goldfish to be in a pond with other fish, bigger as well as smaller but no other goldfish, or is he better off staying where he is, whatever mood he's in? Also, I feed him Goldy Gran, soaked beforehand, worrying how much might be enough. It takes him a while to eat one, so in the morning I might give him 2 to 3 and then in the afternoon 1 or 2. Is that sufficient? Apart from that, he sometimes gets some bloodworms or larves. Thanks for any advice and suggestions! Jane

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50468	From: greychildren	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Haplochromis limax

Info on these guy picket him up on sale at petsmart sitting in an mbuna tank.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50469	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax

How do you know his species? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greychildren Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax Info on these guy picket him up on sale at petsmart sitting in an mbuna tank. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50470	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar to goldfish in their growth pattern. 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them into a good sized pond). Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this purpose). A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your dechlor at such a small dose. First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the next 2 days. Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after another 24 hours. This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank water. I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard is true, and possibly just another myth. Amber On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > T > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50471	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax

It is a cichlid from the Lake Victoria area of Africa but not Lake Victoria itself. Matures at 4”. Medium aggressive. What else do you want to know? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greychildren Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax Info on these guy picket him up on sale at petsmart sitting in an mbuna tank. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50472	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Ray can tell you about brown blood syndrome, LOL. -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar to goldfish in their growth pattern. 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them into a good sized pond). Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this purpose). A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your dechlor at such a small dose. First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the next 2 days. Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after another 24 hours. This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank water. I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard is true, and possibly just another myth. Amber On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > T > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50473	From: jaiko	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax

just wanted some basic info on this fish i tried to search him but i got little info thank you Donna ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:17:34 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax It is a cichlid from the Lake Victoria area of Africa but not Lake Victoria itself. Matures at 4”. Medium aggressive. What else do you want to know? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of greychildren Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax Info on these guy picket him up on sale at petsmart sitting in an mbuna tank. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50474	From: Lisa	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: I lost one good looking fish Monday...

Lost a favorite fish in my tank on Monday night. I was packing things up getting ready to go to bed, and I went into my spare room where my aquarium is, to turn their light off. Just about to hit the switch, and I notice something out of the ordinary There is a great big orange lump sticking out of the plastic hollow log that's in there. On closer inspection. I notice that it's actually my Orange fan tail bubble eye. It's managed to wedge itself halfway into the log, so that only it's head is pocking out, and the rest of the body is hidden. Now this is a fat fish. And the log is narrow. The log also has a dwarf java growing from one of it's other holes. So there's a tangle of roots in there too. I lifted the log and tried to help the fish out by prodding at it's nose. Which eventually did the trick. The fish took a huge gasp for air, and then just sunk. Still breathing, fins half heartily moving. And many missing scales. So I think I'm doing the right thing, and isolate it into a smaller tank, which I've medicated with multi cure. By the time I checked on it the following morning, it was gone. I'll make a quick trip to the aquarium after work, and see if I can bring a new friend home. Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50475	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: I lost one good looking fish Monday...

I'm sorry for your loss, it's hard to lose a fish, especially your favorite fish. Hopefully you can find one to replace your lost friend. Amber On 2/8/2011 1:56 PM, Lisa wrote: > > Lost a favorite fish in my tank on Monday night. > > I was packing things up getting ready to go to bed, and I went into my > spare room where my aquarium is, to turn their light off. > Just about to hit the switch, and I notice something out of the ordinary > > There is a great big orange lump sticking out of the plastic hollow > log that's in there. On closer inspection. I notice that it's actually > my Orange fan tail bubble eye. > > It's managed to wedge itself halfway into the log, so that only it's > head is pocking out, and the rest of the body is hidden. > > Now this is a fat fish. And the log is narrow. The log also has a > dwarf java growing from one of it's other holes. So there's a tangle > of roots in there too. > > I lifted the log and tried to help the fish out by prodding at it's nose. > Which eventually did the trick. > The fish took a huge gasp for air, and then just sunk. > Still breathing, fins half heartily moving. And many missing scales. > > So I think I'm doing the right thing, and isolate it into a smaller > tank, which I've medicated with multi cure. > > By the time I checked on it the following morning, it was gone. > > I'll make a quick trip to the aquarium after work, and see if I can > bring a new friend home. > > Lisa > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50476	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: Haplochromis limax

All the usual guidelines for keeping Africans. pH=8. They are harem breeders so you want one male and a bunch of females. They are territorial so like a longer tank. This one likes to eat plants and is found in reedy shallow areas of the lakes. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jaiko Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:34 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax just wanted some basic info on this fish i tried to search him but i got little info thank you Donna ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:17:34 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax It is a cichlid from the Lake Victoria area of Africa but not Lake Victoria itself. Matures at 4". Medium aggressive. What else do you want to know? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of greychildren Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 4:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Haplochromis limax Info on these guy picket him up on sale at petsmart sitting in an mbuna tank. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50477	From: Lisa	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: I lost one good looking fish Monday...

Thanks Amber --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I'm sorry for your loss, it's hard to lose a fish, especially your > favorite fish. > Hopefully you can find one to replace your lost friend. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 1:56 PM, Lisa wrote: > > > > Lost a favorite fish in my tank on Monday night. > > > > I was packing things up getting ready to go to bed, and I went into my > > spare room where my aquarium is, to turn their light off. > > Just about to hit the switch, and I notice something out of the ordinary > > > > There is a great big orange lump sticking out of the plastic hollow > > log that's in there. On closer inspection. I notice that it's actually > > my Orange fan tail bubble eye. > > > > It's managed to wedge itself halfway into the log, so that only it's > > head is pocking out, and the rest of the body is hidden. > > > > Now this is a fat fish. And the log is narrow. The log also has a > > dwarf java growing from one of it's other holes. So there's a tangle > > of roots in there too. > > > > I lifted the log and tried to help the fish out by prodding at it's nose. > > Which eventually did the trick. > > The fish took a huge gasp for air, and then just sunk. > > Still breathing, fins half heartily moving. And many missing scales. > > > > So I think I'm doing the right thing, and isolate it into a smaller > > tank, which I've medicated with multi cure. > > > > By the time I checked on it the following morning, it was gone. > > > > I'll make a quick trip to the aquarium after work, and see if I can > > bring a new friend home. > > > > Lisa > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50478	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Amber, The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a myth. Fish will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in nature to any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its closed nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I cannot seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, and I am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit the sack tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A fish can die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent stunting, if you know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is normally too late for the fish. Teegra, Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is a good reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank or its population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your replies) so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need to be careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could change radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do need, or feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing 15% daily water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water chemistry will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit earlier about keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who should make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, else there would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise be and will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 years old, and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like tortoise, they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 years. Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that will live up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is closer to a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those plants you need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, grow, breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a longer life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would in the wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another that has yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from their diet, the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the compatriots in the wild. Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going with this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will pop up in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking questions. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar to goldfish in their growth pattern. 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them into a good sized pond). Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this purpose). A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your dechlor at such a small dose. First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the next 2 days. Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after another 24 hours. This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank water. I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard is true, and possibly just another myth. Amber On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > T > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50479	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/8/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the iridescent sharks. Amber On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Amber, > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > myth. Fish > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > nature to > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its closed > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > cannot > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > and I > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > the sack > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > fish can > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent stunting, if you > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > normally too > late for the fish. > > Teegra, > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > a good > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank or its > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > replies) > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > to be > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > change > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > need, or > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing 15% daily > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > chemistry > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit earlier about > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who should > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, else > there > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > be and > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > years old, > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like tortoise, > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 years. > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that will live > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > closer to > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those plants you > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, grow, > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a longer > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would in the > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another that has > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from their > diet, > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > compatriots in the wild. > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going with > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > pop up > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > questions. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them > into a good sized pond). > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > purpose). > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > dechlor at such a small dose. > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > next 2 days. > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after > another 24 hours. > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > water. > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > help. > > > > Teegra > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > stunting? > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50480	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Hydra update

I received the flubendozole from Charles. His website is http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ Yesterday I put a tiny bit in 5 gallons of water. This tank has a betta with nest, red cherry shrimp, daphnia, snails, and copepods. There are quite a few plants, so it is hard to see all the hydra, but the ones I could see yesterday are dead or dying. They just look like blobs today. Yay! The fish, nest, shrimp, snails, and daphnia look fine. The copepods were swimming erratically after I added the flubendozole, and I can't find any today, so I think they did not make it. I did read that it will kill snails, which I was looking forward to in this tank, but so far it has not affected them. I also read that it works on columnaris. I have a female betta that I think has columnaris, so I put flubendozole in that tank as well. Still waiting to see how it works. I will send out another update when something changes. ~ Laurie ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50481	From: Teegra	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. More like toxicity. If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could cause them to get sick and die. Teegra --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the iridescent > sharks. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > Amber, > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > myth. Fish > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > nature to > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its closed > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > cannot > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > and I > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > the sack > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > fish can > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent stunting, if you > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > normally too > > late for the fish. > > > > Teegra, > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > a good > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank or its > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > replies) > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > to be > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > change > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > need, or > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing 15% daily > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > chemistry > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit earlier about > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who should > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, else > > there > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > be and > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > years old, > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like tortoise, > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 years. > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that will live > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > closer to > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those plants you > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, grow, > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a longer > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would in the > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another that has > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from their > > diet, > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going with > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > pop up > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > questions. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them > > into a good sized pond). > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > purpose). > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > next 2 days. > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after > > another 24 hours. > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > water. > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > help. > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > stunting? > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50482	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra update

Laurie, That little bit won't kill snails, it might make them a little sick but they will survive. It takes about 3 times a pinhead to do in the snails - so you have enough to do the job if you want. Don't let the water go bad with all those dead Hydra - change it out tomorrow. Same thing goes for the snails. If you kill off a bunch them, you have a bunch of shells with dead things in them. You will have to get them out. The Flubendazole works on the live bearing Malaysian snails also. Good to hear about the copepods. I didn't know, haven't tried it before. Flubendazole is not anti-Bacterial or anti-Fungal. No reason to work on columnaris. Charles H >I received the Flubendazole from Charles. His website is >http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > >Yesterday I put a tiny bit in 5 gallons of water. This tank has a betta with >nest, red cherry shrimp, daphnia, snails, and copepods. There are quite a few >plants, so it is hard to see all the hydra, but the ones I could see yesterday >are dead or dying. They just look like blobs today. Yay! > >The fish, nest, shrimp, snails, and daphnia look fine. The copepods were >swimming erratically after I added the >flubendozole, and I can't find any today, >so I think they did not make it. > > >I did read that it will kill snails, which I was looking forward to in this >tank, but so far it has not affected them. > >I also read that it works on columnaris. I have >a female betta that I think has >columnaris, so I put Flubendazole in that tank as well. Still waiting to see >how it works. I will send out another update when something changes. > >~ Laurie -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50483	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked into it on accident. Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may never grow to full size, or live a full life either. Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard in this thread of emails. Amber On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > More like toxicity. > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > cause them to get sick and die. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > iridescent > > sharks. > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > myth. Fish > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > nature to > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > closed > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > cannot > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > and I > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > the sack > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > fish can > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > stunting, if you > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > normally too > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > a good > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > or its > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > replies) > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > to be > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > change > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > need, or > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > 15% daily > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > chemistry > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > earlier about > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > should > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > else > > > there > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > be and > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > years old, > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > tortoise, > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > years. > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > will live > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > closer to > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > plants you > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > grow, > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > longer > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > in the > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > that has > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > their > > > diet, > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > with > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > pop up > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > questions. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > have > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > changes to > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > quickly. > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > (but > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > they may > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > water and > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > you know > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > them > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > parameters > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > walmart.com > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > just > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > purpose). > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > you can > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > removing > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > next 2 days. > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > have to > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > them > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > after > > > another 24 hours. > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > change > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > them) > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > water. > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > heard > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > forget > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > Someone > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > syndrome > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > japanese > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > brown > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > help. > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > about > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > need to > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > I have > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > mayby a > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > stunting? > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > care > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > Membership" on the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50484	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Teegra, On the messages/posts, yes most of us receive them via email. While trimming posts may make things "easier," there needs to still be at least some portion of the previous message remaining so that we know what and who you are referring to. Otherwise, it can become impossible to follow what you're saying when there's nothing left there as a reference point. As has been mentioned earlier, unless your aquarium water's parameters matches those of your tap water fairly closely, large water changes can be stressful for the fish. If, however, you've been doing large water changes all along, and your aquarium water now is very close to your tap water, then the fish won't notice a difference and will experience no shock to their systems. Unless there's a specific purpose though, 50% partial water changes are unnecessary. They do have their purposes though, with more heavily stocked tanks having larger bioloads being one of them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that trimming your posts makes things easier. OK, so partial water changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome and that it is caused by oxygen ratio to fish size. I also read somewhere that American pond Koi are getting smaller then the Japanese show breeders' Koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone said that stunting isn't as much of a problem for them because they naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of their environment. As long as they're in a 70 gal or more. It is hard finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > T > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50485	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Hi Donna, Thanks for you confidence in my explanations < g >. I'll try to explain about Brown Blood Syndrome as best I can to Teegra and anyone else who cares to know. It's all tied in to the amount of organic waste products, nitrification, bioload and potential growth -- all topics that any hobbyist may benefit from knowing even if it's never encountered. At least this way, one will be prepared for such a possibility and know how to keep that possibility from ever becoming a reality. I would have followed up on your cue sooner, but some days are busier than others. While I try to pop in here at least several times a day to moderate (approve, deny or remove) messages and spammers -- and we do get our share of them at times -- composing and typing a long message takes more time than is sometimes available. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Ray can tell you about brown blood syndrome, LOL. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them > into a good sized pond). > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this purpose). > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > dechlor at such a small dose. > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > next 2 days. > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after > another 24 hours. > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank water. > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > > > Teegra > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50486	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Growth inhibiting hormones cause stunting which is a bad and dangerous thing and hurts the fish. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Teegra Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 2:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. More like toxicity. If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could cause them to get sick and die. Teegra --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the iridescent > sharks. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > Amber, > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > myth. Fish > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > nature to > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its closed > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > cannot > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > and I > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > the sack > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > fish can > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent stunting, if you > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > normally too > > late for the fish. > > > > Teegra, > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > a good > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank or its > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > replies) > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > to be > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > change > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > need, or > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing 15% daily > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > chemistry > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit earlier about > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who should > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, else > > there > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > be and > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > years old, > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like tortoise, > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 years. > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that will live > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > closer to > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those plants you > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, grow, > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a longer > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would in the > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another that has > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from their > > diet, > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going with > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > pop up > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > questions. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them > > into a good sized pond). > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > purpose). > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > next 2 days. > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after > > another 24 hours. > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > water. > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > help. > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > stunting? > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50487	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Teegra, In a closed system, your aquarium, it is a bad thing. Growth inhibition is a good thing in the wild. It is a way of competing for food and life. The more food a fish gets, the faster it grows. Growing quickly can reduce the number of predators that will see the young fish as food. In the aquarium, it affects the producer as much as other inhabitants in the tank. Stunting is not healthy for a fish, and it is an added stress factor. One goal in aquarium keeping is to limit or eliminate stress factors. It is the stress on a fish that leads to illness and/or shortens the life span of a fish. In nature, there is usually a constant flow of water. Sometimes it is faster, sometimes it is slower, but it is usually there. This is one thing that water changes help mimic, constant replenishment of the water removing the bad stuff by further diluting it. Ray has promised to speak to that subject. I'll let him do it as he may have more time to look up all the facts about it than I do to ensure the story is given accurately. Bettas come from swamps and very slow moving waters. I would imagine that you have a sponge filter in the tanks since it is a 5 gallon (most likely 5.5. gallons). Turn down the airflow to just a few bubbles a minute if it is a fancy type splendens. If it is a pla ket or a wild type betta, you can have the airflow a bit more than that. Give him some plants in there to have things to investigate. Maybe some java moss, a small crypt and something that will reach the surface. Maybe add some décor to pique his interest--some rocks, or, if you really must, one of those castles or other porcelain decoration. Just make sure he will not be able to enter it without being able to get out. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Teegra Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 2:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. More like toxicity. If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could cause them to get sick and die. Teegra --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the iridescent > sharks. > > Amber > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > Amber, > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > myth. Fish > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > nature to > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its closed > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > cannot > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > and I > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > the sack > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > fish can > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent stunting, if you > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > normally too > > late for the fish. > > > > Teegra, > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > a good > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank or its > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > replies) > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > to be > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > change > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > need, or > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing 15% daily > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > chemistry > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit earlier about > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who should > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, else > > there > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > be and > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > years old, > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like tortoise, > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 years. > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that will live > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > closer to > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those plants you > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, grow, > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a longer > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would in the > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another that has > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from their > > diet, > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going with > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > pop up > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > questions. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I have > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water changes to > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather quickly. > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume (but > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different they may > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap water and > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until you know > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get them > > into a good sized pond). > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water parameters > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at walmart.com > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and just > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > purpose). > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but you can > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work removing > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > next 2 days. > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may have to > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want them > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again after > > another 24 hours. > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can change > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between them) > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > water. > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have heard > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I forget > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? Someone > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > help. > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > stunting? > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50488	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Brown Blood Syndrome, was; New to fish and tanks.

Hi Teegra, As there is a lot more to these subjects than what may appear on the surface, perhaps you may have misunderstood whoever told you about this, although all three topics you mention are loosely connected. Let me start by telling you that in the fish's environment (of water), besides its body consisting of all the elements that go into making up its flesh and bones, it will also literally become a part of the water surrounding it in equal proportions to it. That is, whatever is totally dissolved (not merely suspended) in the water, be it dissolved gases, other liquids that may allow themselves to be dissolved (and diluted with it) or, to a much lessor extent, dissolved "solids" (chemical elements and compounds), will be taken up by the fish into its bloodstream through its gills whenever this other matter is in greater concentration (in the water) than it is within the fish. The fish's gills act as a membrane -- but unlike that of an R/O unit -- which allows the passage of any substance in its surrounding water through it, into it's bloodstream and from there into the rest of its body (tissues and bones) -- in an equal concentration to that in the water. This, in fact, is essentially how it breathes -- how it absorbs fresh oxygen through its gill membranes and allows excess carbon dioxide to exit its body. These gases too, will also only tend to be exchanged through the gills in a proportion to the concentrations in the water comparative to their concentrations in the fish -- just as any other matter is. This is one very important reason why it's essential to try to keep your aquarium water as clean and free of foreign matter as possible. This is also the major reason why ANY unnecessary chemicals should be avoided from being added to the aquarium, as the fish will absorb ANY chemical in the water and the chemical will become an actual part of the fish's make-up -- that is, up until it overwhelms and poisons the fish -- but we're not going on this path right at this time. Oxygen (or any gas) is allowed to be dissolved and held in water at certain concentrations -- and ONLY at certain concentrations -- in relation to its temperature. That is, the colder the water, the more dissolved oxygen it's allowed to hold, and conversely, the warmer the water, the less dissolved oxygen is allowed to be held in this water. Different species of fishes have slightly different oxygen requirements and slightly different tolerances for carbon dioxide, partly due to their differing inherent metabolisms, but in general and on average, most aquarium fishes ideally require about 5.0 ppm of oxygen in their environment at all times. For shorter periods, they may be able to tolerate an oxygen concentration as low as 3.5 ppm, but below that they will soon suffer and eventually expire. Pure water is allowed to take up (dissolve) and hold oxygen at the rate of 8.4 ppm at 75 o F. At 80 o F, this drops off to just 7.9 ppm, whereas at 70 o F, it can hold 9 ppm. However, aquarium water is not pure, but in various stages on contamination (and I don't mean that adversely), having various other elements and perhaps gases in it, besides other organisms (like bacteria) using part of this precious oxygen, so the concentration of oxygen is never near as high in the aquarium as it is in its pure state (pure state meaning rainwater or snow in nature, before it hits the ground, or distilled water if we were to make it); this is yet one more reason, but a MAJOR reason why we need to keep the water as clean as we can. BTW, colder water fishes, such as Goldfish require an average of 6 ppm of dissolved oxygen as a constant in their water -- one more reason not to mix them with tropicals and have them have to endure higher temperatures, Now with this established, we'll move on to the growth of the fishes, and their growth-inhibiting secretions (hormones) that they constantly produce while doing so. In nature, it's a temporary life-saving process when a river or lake may partially dry up temporarily stranding a number of fish in the same finite pool -- until the rains come again allowing their access to the river or lake proper. As their growth is temporarily suspended, the lot of them won't use any more oxygen than what they're presently consuming, thus saving their lives until their pools are again refreshed and overflowed. In the confines of the aquarium, it can be devastating if the hobbyist doesn't take measures to eliminate it. If/when these growth-inhibiting hormones are allowed to build up, yes, they will restrict the growth of the fish, in proportion to not only to its concentration in the water, but HOW LONG the fish are enduring it. In more ideal conditions, free from such contaminants, fish are always growing towards their maximum size, of which each species has an approximate maximum. Getting back to this for a moment, it was both asked and suggested that/if fish grow to the size of their tank. While \\Steve// used a good example with the Neon Tetra, the same of course would apply to any naturally smaller fish; a Molly won't grow to 10" in a 100 gallon tank. But, I believe what was being meant was, will a fish normally requiring an exceptionally large tank (and normally growing to this tank's size if allowed to) be restricted and grow ONLY to fit the supplied environment of a smaller tank than what it really needs, i.e., stunting it -- and having it remain at a smaller than normal size, HAPPILY. The answer is -- PARTIALLY (it will be stunted) -- but not HAPPILY -- and NOT with the best ending. Now, here comes nitrification. Adding to this, is the end result (in the aquarium) of the nitrogen cycle -- the nitrate -- which needs to be gotten rid of. While plants will use some of this nitrate, under conditions of an extra heavy bioload -- such as growing potentially larger fish out in a tank not adequately large enough for it (or them, if more than one fish) -- the nitrate will build up to extremes unless partial water changes are made. Most aquarists are aware of this, and carry on maintentance which includes partial water changes, which also removes much (depending on the size of the water change) of the growth-inhibiting hormones, whether the aquarist realizes it or not (or wants to recognize it or not). An important point here, but one that's overlooked, is that fish are inherently programmed to continue to grow AT A UNIFORM RATE during this time that they're growing -- which is almost continous (even daily, but slowly), with some variance depending upon their food resources. Too, fish have a FINITE period of time to reach their potential full size, with a programmed (in their genes) rate of growth over this time period. When the nitrate and the growth inhibiting hormones are allowed to build up until the next water change, at that time the fish's growth will at least temporarily (depending on the frequency of the PWC pattern) slow down and/or come to a stop. But then, each time a PWC (partial water change) is done -- and with large fish producing lots of nitrate, necessitating a large PWC to get rid of these nitrates -- most of the growth inhibiting hormones will also be removed (until it builds up again just before the next PWC), allowing the fish to temporarily resume growing, although now at only HALF the normal growth rate -- since their programmed rate of growth is now being impacted by the inhibiting hormones periodically building up. YET, these fish are STILL growing BEYOND the sustaining proportions of the too-small tank they're growing in, which eventually will see the nitification process of this ultra-large bioload become overwhelmed to the point of nitrite building up. NO, large fish WILL NOT grow ONLY to the size of the tank, will will outgrow the tank, albeit at a slower rate. Yes, depending on the species and the maximum size they normally would grow to, they may well become stunted such as they just won't grow anymore, but more often, while they'll never reach theiur full size, they will continue to grow, although more slowly, beyond the capacity of their tank -- provided you continue to make large PWC's -- which you NEED to do to maintain them. Just building up to where and howe Brown Blood comes into this picture. Inevitably, unless you're making daily 80% PWC's -- which would only serve to help promote the fish's growth (at a slower rate) -- this bioload will become too much for the nitogen cycle of your present filters to keep up with, leaving your water column building up with both ammonia and nitrite between the PWC's thast you can manage to keep up with. Ammonia poisoning is bad enough but nitrite is much more toxic. Still, even if your fish where to develop ammonia poisoning symptoms, the addition of salt in the proportion of at least 3 teaspoons per gallon will eventually relieve them of this after about two weeks, provided you keep their water free of ammonia during this period while maintaining this salt level. Ammonia gets more toxic the higher the pH goes. Adversely, nitrite becomes more toxic the lower the pH goes -- that's not to say it isn't toxic even in the alkaline range (above pH 7.0), but below pH 6.5, it becomes nitrous acid, exceedingly dangerous. Brown Blood Syndrome is the result of nitrite poisoning (The blood will actually turn from the normal red, up to nearly a chocolate brown color). As mentioned in the beginning -- and is why I mentioned in the beginning -- all gases, etc., in excess of what the fish contains in its body will migrate through the gill membranes into the bloodstream. What happens is, that the nitrite transforms the blood's hemoglobin (the red material inside of the red blood cells) into Methemoglobin -- an Iron-carrying protein which diminished these cells' ability to carry oxygen, essentially starving the fish of oxygen, "strangling/smothering" it. Fortunately, there is a cure for this "disease," even a preventative if this nitrite were to develop, although if the fish does develop nitrite poisoning the damage done to the fish can be irreversable, with having its gills permanently "burned," etc. In situations where it will be known that the fish will be approaching the capacity of the container (tank or pond) they're in, it's pudent if a token amount of salt (at the rate of 0.1%) be added to the water column. Chlorides compete directly with nitrite in combining with hemoglobin at the rate of 10 - 1, thus eliminating the nitrite poisoning to begin with. One could even use calcium chloride if the water hardness were of no concern. The hobbyist only needs to maintain (replacing lost salt with PWC) 1/8 teaspoon of salt per gallon of aquarium water to curtail even the start of the effects of nitrite poisoning if this organic waste product starts elevating. At least this gives the hobbyist time to correct the problem before internal damage is done to the fish. If the token amount of salt were not maintained during the time this nitrite level climbed, and the fish did develop Brown Blood Syndrome, the addition of Methylene Blue to the water column will increase the amount of hemoglobin in the red blood cells, transforming the Methemoglobin back to Oxyhemoglobin (Oxygen-carrying protein). This is not to say that the fish will not have been already damaged though, by the nitrite. This above token addition of salt under these circumstances is not a recommendation to permanently (and unnecessarily) keep larger amounts of salt in your freshwater at all times -- as some hobbyists have believed in doing, as a Tablespoon per 5 gallons -- as salt inhibits the nitrifying bacteria in the filter. That's the story in a coconut shell < g >. Any questions? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@...> wrote: > > Thank you Amber and Ray! Someone else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome and that it is caused by oxygen ratio to fish size. I also read somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese show breeders koi. What do people do with iridescent sharks? Someone said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > Teegra > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > T > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50489	From: Ray	Date: 2/9/2011
Subject: Re: Brown Blood Syndrome, was; New to fish and tanks.

My apologies for the typos. In read this over, I only now see (they never show before posting < g >) some errors and omissions of letters here and there. I also notice that I didn't get too far into the fish's respiratory process, but this is probably far more than you wanted to know anyway. You'll notice that I try to be complete, though (LOL) -- so you'll be able to understand thing better. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Teegra, > > As there is a lot more to these subjects than what may appear on the surface, perhaps you may have misunderstood whoever told you about this, although all three topics you mention are loosely connected. Let me start by telling you that in the fish's environment (of water), besides its body consisting of all the elements that go into making up its flesh and bones, it will also literally become a part of the water surrounding it in equal proportions to it. That is, whatever is totally dissolved (not merely suspended) in the water, be it dissolved gases, other liquids that may allow themselves to be dissolved (and diluted with it) or, to a much lessor extent, dissolved "solids" (chemical elements and compounds), will be taken up by the fish into its bloodstream through its gills whenever this other matter is in greater concentration (in the water) than it is within the fish. The fish's gills act as a membrane -- but unlike that of an R/O unit -- which allows the passage of any substance in its surrounding water through it, into it's bloodstream and from there into the rest of its body (tissues and bones) -- in an equal concentration to that in the water. > > This, in fact, is essentially how it breathes -- how it absorbs fresh oxygen through its gill membranes and allows excess carbon dioxide to exit its body. These gases too, will also only tend to be exchanged through the gills in a proportion to the concentrations in the water comparative to their concentrations in the fish -- just as any other matter is. This is one very important reason why it's essential to try to keep your aquarium water as clean and free of foreign matter as possible. This is also the major reason why ANY unnecessary chemicals should be avoided from being added to the aquarium, as the fish will absorb ANY chemical in the water and the chemical will become an actual part of the fish's make-up -- that is, up until it overwhelms and poisons the fish -- but we're not going on this path right at this time. > > Oxygen (or any gas) is allowed to be dissolved and held in water at certain concentrations -- and ONLY at certain concentrations -- in relation to its temperature. That is, the colder the water, the more dissolved oxygen it's allowed to hold, and conversely, the warmer the water, the less dissolved oxygen is allowed to be held in this water. Different species of fishes have slightly different oxygen requirements and slightly different tolerances for carbon dioxide, partly due to their differing inherent metabolisms, but in general and on average, most aquarium fishes ideally require about 5.0 ppm of oxygen in their environment at all times. For shorter periods, they may be able to tolerate an oxygen concentration as low as 3.5 ppm, but below that they will soon suffer and eventually expire. > > Pure water is allowed to take up (dissolve) and hold oxygen at the rate of 8.4 ppm at 75 o F. At 80 o F, this drops off to just 7.9 ppm, whereas at 70 o F, it can hold 9 ppm. However, aquarium water is not pure, but in various stages on contamination (and I don't mean that adversely), having various other elements and perhaps gases in it, besides other organisms (like bacteria) using part of this precious oxygen, so the concentration of oxygen is never near as high in the aquarium as it is in its pure state (pure state meaning rainwater or snow in nature, before it hits the ground, or distilled water if we were to make it); this is yet one more reason, but a MAJOR reason why we need to keep the water as clean as we can. BTW, colder water fishes, such as Goldfish require an average of 6 ppm of dissolved oxygen as a constant in their water -- one more reason not to mix them with tropicals and have them have to endure higher temperatures, > > Now with this established, we'll move on to the growth of the fishes, and their growth-inhibiting secretions (hormones) that they constantly produce while doing so. In nature, it's a temporary life-saving process when a river or lake may partially dry up temporarily stranding a number of fish in the same finite pool -- until the rains come again allowing their access to the river or lake proper. As their growth is temporarily suspended, the lot of them won't use any more oxygen than what they're presently consuming, thus saving their lives until their pools are again refreshed and overflowed. In the confines of the aquarium, it can be devastating if the hobbyist doesn't take measures to eliminate it. If/when these growth-inhibiting hormones are allowed to build up, yes, they will restrict the growth of the fish, in proportion to not only to its concentration in the water, but HOW LONG the fish are enduring it. > > In more ideal conditions, free from such contaminants, fish are always growing towards their maximum size, of which each species has an approximate maximum. Getting back to this for a moment, it was both asked and suggested that/if fish grow to the size of their tank. While \\Steve// used a good example with the Neon Tetra, the same of course would apply to any naturally smaller fish; a Molly won't grow to 10" in a 100 gallon tank. But, I believe what was being meant was, will a fish normally requiring an exceptionally large tank (and normally growing to this tank's size if allowed to) be restricted and grow ONLY to fit the supplied environment of a smaller tank than what it really needs, i.e., stunting it -- and having it remain at a smaller than normal size, HAPPILY. > > The answer is -- PARTIALLY (it will be stunted) -- but not HAPPILY -- and NOT with the best ending. Now, here comes nitrification. Adding to this, is the end result (in the aquarium) of the nitrogen cycle -- the nitrate -- which needs to be gotten rid of. While plants will use some of this nitrate, under conditions of an extra heavy bioload -- such as growing potentially larger fish out in a tank not adequately large enough for it (or them, if more than one fish) -- the nitrate will build up to extremes unless partial water changes are made. Most aquarists are aware of this, and carry on maintentance which includes partial water changes, which also removes much (depending on the size of the water change) of the growth-inhibiting hormones, whether the aquarist realizes it or not (or wants to recognize it or not). An important point here, but one that's overlooked, is that fish are inherently programmed to continue to grow AT A UNIFORM RATE during this time that they're growing -- which is almost continous (even daily, but slowly), with some variance depending upon their food resources. Too, fish have a FINITE period of time to reach their potential full size, with a programmed (in their genes) rate of growth over this time period. > > When the nitrate and the growth inhibiting hormones are allowed to build up until the next water change, at that time the fish's growth will at least temporarily (depending on the frequency of the PWC pattern) slow down and/or come to a stop. But then, each time a PWC (partial water change) is done -- and with large fish producing lots of nitrate, necessitating a large PWC to get rid of these nitrates -- most of the growth inhibiting hormones will also be removed (until it builds up again just before the next PWC), allowing the fish to temporarily resume growing, although now at only HALF the normal growth rate -- since their programmed rate of growth is now being impacted by the inhibiting hormones periodically building up. YET, these fish are STILL growing BEYOND the sustaining proportions of the too-small tank they're growing in, which eventually will see the nitification process of this ultra-large bioload become overwhelmed to the point of nitrite building up. NO, large fish WILL NOT grow ONLY to the size of the tank, will will outgrow the tank, albeit at a slower rate. Yes, depending on the species and the maximum size they normally would grow to, they may well become stunted such as they just won't grow anymore, but more often, while they'll never reach theiur full size, they will continue to grow, although more slowly, beyond the capacity of their tank -- provided you continue to make large PWC's -- which you NEED to do to maintain them. > > Just building up to where and howe Brown Blood comes into this picture. Inevitably, unless you're making daily 80% PWC's -- which would only serve to help promote the fish's growth (at a slower rate) -- this bioload will become too much for the nitogen cycle of your present filters to keep up with, leaving your water column building up with both ammonia and nitrite between the PWC's thast you can manage to keep up with. Ammonia poisoning is bad enough but nitrite is much more toxic. Still, even if your fish where to develop ammonia poisoning symptoms, the addition of salt in the proportion of at least 3 teaspoons per gallon will eventually relieve them of this after about two weeks, provided you keep their water free of ammonia during this period while maintaining this salt level. > > Ammonia gets more toxic the higher the pH goes. Adversely, nitrite becomes more toxic the lower the pH goes -- that's not to say it isn't toxic even in the alkaline range (above pH 7.0), but below pH 6.5, it becomes nitrous acid, exceedingly dangerous. Brown Blood Syndrome is the result of nitrite poisoning (The blood will actually turn from the normal red, up to nearly a chocolate brown color). As mentioned in the beginning -- and is why I mentioned in the beginning -- all gases, etc., in excess of what the fish contains in its body will migrate through the gill membranes into the bloodstream. What happens is, that the nitrite transforms the blood's hemoglobin (the red material inside of the red blood cells) into Methemoglobin -- an Iron-carrying protein which diminished these cells' ability to carry oxygen, essentially starving the fish of oxygen, "strangling/smothering" it. > > Fortunately, there is a cure for this "disease," even a preventative if this nitrite were to develop, although if the fish does develop nitrite poisoning the damage done to the fish can be irreversable, with having its gills permanently "burned," etc. In situations where it will be known that the fish will be approaching the capacity of the container (tank or pond) they're in, it's pudent if a token amount of salt (at the rate of 0.1%) be added to the water column. Chlorides compete directly with nitrite in combining with hemoglobin at the rate of 10 - 1, thus eliminating the nitrite poisoning to begin with. One could even use calcium chloride if the water hardness were of no concern. The hobbyist only needs to maintain (replacing lost salt with PWC) 1/8 teaspoon of salt per gallon of aquarium water to curtail even the start of the effects of nitrite poisoning if this organic waste product starts elevating. At least this gives the hobbyist time to correct the problem before internal damage is done to the fish. > > If the token amount of salt were not maintained during the time this nitrite level climbed, and the fish did develop Brown Blood Syndrome, the addition of Methylene Blue to the water column will increase the amount of hemoglobin in the red blood cells, transforming the Methemoglobin back to Oxyhemoglobin (Oxygen-carrying protein). This is not to say that the fish will not have been already damaged though, by the nitrite. This above token addition of salt under these circumstances is not a recommendation to permanently (and unnecessarily) keep larger amounts of salt in your freshwater at all times -- as some hobbyists have believed in doing, as a Tablespoon per 5 gallons -- as salt inhibits the nitrifying bacteria in the filter. > > That's the story in a coconut shell < g >. Any questions? > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! Someone else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood syndrome and that it is caused by oxygen ratio to fish size. I also read somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the japanese show breeders koi. What do people do with iridescent sharks? Someone said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get brown blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre help. > > > > Teegra > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are about the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you need to keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? I have a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but mayby a bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent stunting? > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter care taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50491	From: Ray	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: DON'T OPEN -- Nature Photography: Five Tips, etc., etc.

Good Morning Members, DO NOT OPEN the recent post with the Subject Line -- Nature Photography. It was erroneously approved as it appeared innocent, in that many of us take photos of our fish. But only after checking it out further, after it became increasingly suspicious, it's been determined to be Spam. The member has been duly banned and the message has been stricken from the archives. Ray -- A.L. Moderator

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50492	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra update - Question about fish lice

Does this medicine kill off fish lice? I've found a few in one of my tanks and I want to get rid of them, took me a bit of searching on the internet to even figure out what they were, I thought they were planaria but they have a flat "head" and are definitely fish lice now that I found pictures of them on the web. Amber On 2/9/2011 12:38 PM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > Laurie, > That little bit won't kill snails, it might make > them a little sick but they will survive. It > takes about 3 times a pinhead to do in the snails > - so you have enough to do the job if you want. > Don't let the water go bad with all those dead > Hydra - change it out tomorrow. Same thing goes > for the snails. If you kill off a bunch them, you > have a bunch of shells with dead things in them. > You will have to get them out. The Flubendazole > works on the live bearing Malaysian snails also. > Good to hear about the copepods. I didn't know, > haven't tried it before. > > Flubendazole is not anti-Bacterial or > anti-Fungal. No reason to work on columnaris. > > Charles H > > >I received the Flubendazole from Charles. His website is > >http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > > >Yesterday I put a tiny bit in 5 gallons of water. This tank has a > betta with > >nest, red cherry shrimp, daphnia, snails, and copepods. There are > quite a few > >plants, so it is hard to see all the hydra, but the ones I could see > yesterday > >are dead or dying. They just look like blobs today. Yay! > > > >The fish, nest, shrimp, snails, and daphnia look fine. The copepods were > >swimming erratically after I added the > >flubendozole, and I can't find any today, > >so I think they did not make it. > > > > > >I did read that it will kill snails, which I was looking forward to > in this > >tank, but so far it has not affected them. > > > >I also read that it works on columnaris. I have > >a female betta that I think has > >columnaris, so I put Flubendazole in that tank as well. Still waiting > to see > >how it works. I will send out another update when something changes. > > > >~ Laurie > > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50493	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > into it on accident. > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > in this thread of emails. > > Amber > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > More like toxicity. > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > Teegra > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > iridescent > > > sharks. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > myth. Fish > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > nature to > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > closed > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > cannot > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > and I > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > the sack > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > fish can > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > stunting, if you > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > normally too > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > a good > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > or its > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > replies) > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > to be > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > change > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > need, or > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > 15% daily > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > chemistry > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > earlier about > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > should > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > else > > > > there > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > be and > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > years old, > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > tortoise, > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > years. > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > will live > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > closer to > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > plants you > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > grow, > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > longer > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > in the > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > that has > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > their > > > > diet, > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > with > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > pop up > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > have > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > changes to > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > quickly. > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > (but > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > they may > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > water and > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > you know > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > them > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > parameters > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > walmart.com > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > just > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > purpose). > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > you can > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > removing > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > next 2 days. > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > have to > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > them > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > after > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > change > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > them) > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > water. > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > heard > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > forget > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > Someone > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > syndrome > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > japanese > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > brown > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > about > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > need to > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > I have > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > mayby a > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > care > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > Membership" on the > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > where > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50494	From: Ray	Date: 2/10/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Dawn, A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was disappointed. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > > into it on accident. > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > > in this thread of emails. > > > > Amber > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > iridescent > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > > nature to > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > > closed > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > > cannot > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > > and I > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > > the sack > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > > fish can > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > stunting, if you > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > > normally too > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > > a good > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > > or its > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > > replies) > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > > to be > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > > change > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > > need, or > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > > 15% daily > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > > chemistry > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > > earlier about > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > > should > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > > else > > > > > there > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > > be and > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > > years old, > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > > tortoise, > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > > years. > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > > will live > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > > closer to > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > > plants you > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > > grow, > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > > longer > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > > in the > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > > that has > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > > their > > > > > diet, > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > > with > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > > pop up > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > > have > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > > changes to > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > > quickly. > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > > (but > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > > they may > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > > water and > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > > you know > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > > them > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > > parameters > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > walmart.com > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > > just > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > > purpose). > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > > you can > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > > removing > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > > have to > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > > them > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > > after > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > > change > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > > them) > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > > heard > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > > forget > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > > Someone > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > > syndrome > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > > japanese > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > > brown > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > > about > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > > need to > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > > I have > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > > mayby a > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > > care > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > Membership" on the > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > > digest, which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > option > > > > > where > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50495	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Fish Lice

I found fish lice in one of my tanks (which means they are probably in other tanks and I just haven't noticed them yet), I was wondering if there is a home remedy I can use that's safe for other tank inhabitants (snails, fish, and possibly shrimp) that will kill off the fish lice safely? If not is there a med that is safe to use with snails/shrimp that will kill off the fish lice? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50496	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice

>I found fish lice in one of my tanks (which means they are probably in >other tanks and I just haven't noticed them yet), I was wondering if >there is a home remedy I can use that's safe for other tank inhabitants >(snails, fish, and possibly shrimp) that will kill off the fish lice safely? >If not is there a med that is safe to use with snails/shrimp that will >kill off the fish lice? > >Amber Isolate some and try a little Flubendazole on them. Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50497	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: New to fish and tanks.

Ray, I posted the link before I read your post and also because I didn't have the time to write a long post. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was disappointed. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: > > > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > > > into it on accident. > > > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > > > in this thread of emails. > > > > > > Amber > > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > > iridescent > > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > > > nature to > > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > > > closed > > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > > > and I > > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > > > the sack > > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > > > fish can > > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > > stunting, if you > > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > > > normally too > > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > > > a good > > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > > > or its > > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > > > replies) > > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > > > to be > > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > > > change > > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > > > need, or > > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > > > 15% daily > > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > > > chemistry > > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > > > earlier about > > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > > > should > > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > > > else > > > > > > there > > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > > > be and > > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > > > years old, > > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > > > tortoise, > > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > > > years. > > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > > > will live > > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > > > closer to > > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > > > plants you > > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > > > grow, > > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > > > longer > > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > > > in the > > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > > > that has > > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > > > their > > > > > > diet, > > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > > > with > > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > > > pop up > > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > > > have > > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > > > changes to > > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > > > quickly. > > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > > > (but > > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > > > they may > > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > > > water and > > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > > > you know > > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > > > them > > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > > > parameters > > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > > walmart.com > > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > > > just > > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > > > purpose). > > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > > > you can > > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > > > removing > > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > > > have to > > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > > > them > > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > > > after > > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > > > change > > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > > > them) > > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > > > heard > > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > > > forget > > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > > > Someone > > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > > > syndrome > > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > > > japanese > > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > > > brown > > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > > > about > > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > > > need to > > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > > > I have > > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > > > mayby a > > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > > > care > > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to > > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > > Membership" on the > > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > > > digest, which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > option > > > > > > where > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50498	From: haecklers	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Blue-green algae and hair algae

I've got problems in two tanks, my shrimp tank is getting taken over by hair algae to the point I'm worried it will start to damage the plants. In a 2-gallon bowl I've been using as a temporary tank I've just noticed a pretty bad blue-green algae problem - it has covered the plants in there including a crypt I'd rather keep. Any feedback on how go get rid of these without damaging the plants or aquatic life? I can empty the 2-gallon and scrub it down but am not sure how to be sure the plants won't re-infect wherever I put them. I do have nerite snails and I've heard they eat blue-green algae. Last time they were in there they kept trying to escape, so if there's a better alternative I'd like to hear it, don't want to lose my snails.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50499	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Blue-green algae and hair algae

A dose or two of erythromycin should cure the blue green algae for you, but be forewarned it can also decimate your biological filter as well. There are a few fish that like to dine on hair algae. But they are not coming to mind right now. Otos may be one, and they should not bother your shrimp. I'm sure someone will chime in here with the names of those fish who might do the job for you. Not only should they eat the hair algae, but they should not like to dine on shrimp as well. Hmmm, hair algae and shrimp, an interesting twist on the surf and turf theme. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 4:27 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Blue-green algae and hair algae I've got problems in two tanks, my shrimp tank is getting taken over by hair algae to the point I'm worried it will start to damage the plants. In a 2-gallon bowl I've been using as a temporary tank I've just noticed a pretty bad blue-green algae problem - it has covered the plants in there including a crypt I'd rather keep. Any feedback on how go get rid of these without damaging the plants or aquatic life? I can empty the 2-gallon and scrub it down but am not sure how to be sure the plants won't re-infect wherever I put them. I do have nerite snails and I've heard they eat blue-green algae. Last time they were in there they kept trying to escape, so if there's a better alternative I'd like to hear it, don't want to lose my snails. ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50500	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Lice

I'm starting to wonder if they're really fish lice at all, and not some other form of parasite. I never see them attached to the fish, but rather ornaments or between the gravel. They DO eat my newly hatched mystery snails though, and while it helps keep them in check it's a little frustrating too. They might be affecting the fish somehow and I just never see it. They are about a quarter inch long, and move around like "inch worms" do, and they're tear drop shaped and flat. When you poke them they tend to curl up in a ball. Are these something that someone recognizes? I will try to find one to take a picture of, but they rarely come out into the open, I usually have to move the ornaments and find them underneath them. All the sites I've read on fish lice state that fish lice have legs, and these have no legs that I can see (unless they're possibly too small to see). I doubt my LFS has any flubendazole, they have a VERY small selection of meds (usually only 2 types and they're usually broad spectrum anti-bacteria type meds). I will probably have to order it and have it sent to me. Amber On 2/11/2011 9:09 AM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > >I found fish lice in one of my tanks (which means they are probably in > >other tanks and I just haven't noticed them yet), I was wondering if > >there is a home remedy I can use that's safe for other tank inhabitants > >(snails, fish, and possibly shrimp) that will kill off the fish lice > safely? > >If not is there a med that is safe to use with snails/shrimp that will > >kill off the fish lice? > > > >Amber > > Isolate some and try a little Flubendazole on them. > > Charles H > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50501	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/11/2011
Subject: Re: was: Fish Lice Now: ACTUALLY planaria

So doing some more searching on the web... I think I may not have fish lice, but actually a form of planaria (flat worm). This one has hooks on both ends, I've had them on my hands/arm and it stings a little to pull them off, so I know they're grabbing onto my skin with something. Is it normal for planaria to kill newly hatched mystery snails? Will they also harm newly born freshwater shrimp? And will Flubendazole work on planaria? Or is there something better? Amber On 2/11/2011 9:09 AM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > >I found fish lice in one of my tanks (which means they are probably in > >other tanks and I just haven't noticed them yet), I was wondering if > >there is a home remedy I can use that's safe for other tank inhabitants > >(snails, fish, and possibly shrimp) that will kill off the fish lice > safely? > >If not is there a med that is safe to use with snails/shrimp that will > >kill off the fish lice? > > > >Amber > > Isolate some and try a little Flubendazole on them. > > Charles H > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50502	From: Ray	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks.

Dawn, I don't quite understand why you would say that. I posted my message on Wednesday (2/9) evening at 11:28PM. I didn't see your message until late the following afternoon (2/10) at 6:02PM -- even though you may have posted it earlier that afternoon (certainly not sooner or it would have been approved prior than the late afternoon). You had plenty of opportunity to see my message. That you indicate, that you didn't have time to write a long post would explain your using the link, but please know that if it were in answer to my remark that I expected that you may have explained it to us better, that I was being facetious there, in going by your past posts where you often try to get an upper hand to promote yourself. I just want to clarify that repetition of the same material that has already been posted previously serves no purpose. It is redundant, excessive and superfluous material having no further meaning, and becomes extraneous matter to the Subject. To repeat the same thing that somebody else has already said (without the courtesy of actually quoting them) as one's own idea -- whether in one's words or through the use of a link -- only has the appearance of being self-serving, as though to take credit for the original idea as trying to look like the originator of it. There's no need for the same information to be repeated ad nauseam. FISH !!! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Ray, > I posted the link before I read your post and also because I didn't have the time to write a long post. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was disappointed. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: > > > > > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > > > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > > > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > > > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > > > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > > > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > > > > into it on accident. > > > > > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > > > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > > > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > > > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > > > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > > > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > > > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > > > > in this thread of emails. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > > > iridescent > > > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > > > > nature to > > > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > > > > closed > > > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > > > > the sack > > > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > > > > fish can > > > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > > > stunting, if you > > > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > > > > normally too > > > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > > > > a good > > > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > > > > or its > > > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > > > > replies) > > > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > > > > need, or > > > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > > > > 15% daily > > > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > > > > chemistry > > > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > > > > earlier about > > > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > > > > should > > > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > > > > else > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > > > > be and > > > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > > > > years old, > > > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > > > > tortoise, > > > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > > > > years. > > > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > > > > will live > > > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > > > > closer to > > > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > > > > plants you > > > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > > > > grow, > > > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > > > > longer > > > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > > > > in the > > > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > > > > that has > > > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > > > > their > > > > > > > diet, > > > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > > > > with > > > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > > > > pop up > > > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > > > > have > > > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > > > > changes to > > > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > > > > (but > > > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > > > > they may > > > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > > > > water and > > > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > > > > you know > > > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > > > > them > > > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > > > > parameters > > > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > > > walmart.com > > > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > > > > just > > > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > > > > purpose). > > > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > > > > you can > > > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > > > > removing > > > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > > > > have to > > > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > > > > them > > > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > > > > after > > > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > > > > change > > > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > > > > them) > > > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > > > > heard > > > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > > > > forget > > > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > > > > Someone > > > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > > > > syndrome > > > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > > > > japanese > > > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > > > > brown > > > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > > > > about > > > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > > > > mayby a > > > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > > > > care > > > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to > > > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > > > Membership" on the > > > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > > > > digest, which > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > > option > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50503	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of Last Week

Sorry, all my one or two fans of this out there, I've been down with the flu for about a week now (and I cannot get a flu shot to try to prevent the flu) so I never got around to posting this as my time online has been limited. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4ck4p8f Weird fish of the week: Razor fish This week's candidate for Weird fish of the week is another occasional aquarium subject, the Razor or Shrimp fish, (Aeoliscus strigatus). There's little about these strange fish that isn't weird when compared to what most of us would think of as 'normal' fish anatomy. The obvious oddity of the Razor fish is its swimming position - they swim in a vertical position with their heads pointing downward and their tails up. This odd method of locomotion is made possible by some extreme body adaptation. Their dorsal fin is divided into two parts, the first of which is positioned on the end of the body where the caudal fin, (tail) would normally be, while the second dorsal and true caudal are positioned ventrally beside the anal fin. This peculiar arrangement means the fish moves around using a sculling motion of its pectoral fins in combination with waving movements of the adapted dorsal, caudal and anal fins, sometimes described as 'Balistiform swimming' after triggerfish which employ this method themselves. Razorfish are generally a shoaling species and groups of them achieve an impressive degree of synchronisation in their movement. Their cryptic swimming method make sense when they are seen in their natural environment, hidden among the spines of large Diadema sea urchins, sheltering among branching staghorn corals or gorgonians and hiding in sea grass beds. Here their vertical stance, along with a dark bar running from nose to tail means they can hide from both predators and potential prey such as copepods and zooplankton which they snap up in their tiny, toothless mouths. [Video available] --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50504	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3618&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_11_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Sea_lamprey&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/48spgep Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey Just what is it? Is it really a fish? Some scientists would argue that it probably isn't, but for now it stays on the honorary fish list, irrespective of how much it looks like a leech. The Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) looks more like something from science fiction than the sea, and has been confusing taxonomists for years. Lacking jaws, the animal instead relies on rings of rasping teeth to gnaw its way through the flanks of other fish, so that it can suck on the blood within. Not kept in check, they can become quite the pest, as has happened with several North American great lakes, where they blight fish farms and wild stocks alike. They don't even have bones, using a cartilage skeleton to support their bodies. Rows of gill slits live where most fish would have an operculum, and their bodies are devoid of a single scale. Not all species of lamprey are parasitic, but those that are should be feared. Big and strong, reaching lengths of up to a metre, 40", this is not the sort of parasite you can scrape off with a couple of flicks against the substrate. Unsurprisingly, this fish is not endangered, and for the gastronomically adventurous it is regarded as something of a delicacy in many countries. Lamprey and chips, anyone? Published: Nathan Hill Thursday 10 February 2011, 2:09 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50505	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Two-headed shark embryos discovered

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3589&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Two-headed_shark_embryos_discovered&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4aquodd [Photos at site] Two-headed shark embryos discovered A pair of two headed shark embryos have been found preserved in formalin in a private collection in Argentina nearly 80 years after they were first caught. The sharks are thought to be male Tope shark Galeorhinus galeus embryos dating from 1934 when they were removed from a pregnant female caught in the Mar del Plata coastal waters, Argentine Sea. The sharks measured 162 and 174mm long and were fused at the level of the the fifth gill opening. Each head had a pair of nostrils, a pair of eyes, a mouth, four pairs of gills and five pairs of gill openings. There were also duplicated dorsal fins but only a single pair of both pectoral and pelvic fins. This is the first recorded case of dicephaly in this species and a fairly rare find for sharks with only a handful of cases ever having been reported. Galeorhinus galeus is a medium-sized shark that occurs in coastal and shelf temperate waters in the north-east and south-east Pacific Ocean, north-east and south Atlantic Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, southern Australia and New Zealand. The causes of the embryonic abnormality are unknown but previous suggestions for elasmobranchs have included parasitic infection, arthritis, injury, tumours, bad nutrition or a congenital abnormality as well as pollution and unfavourable environmental conditions during embryonic development. Published: Nicolette Craig Tuesday 1 February 2011, 11:25 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50506	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Inspirational aquariums: Euro modernism!

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3602&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Inspirational_aquariums:_Euro_modernism!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4hgaof2 [Photo and other links at site] Inspirational aquariums: Euro modernism! This planted tank will appeal to the enthusiast with a lot of space and a large wallet! The tank has great depth, so the aquascaper can try out a large variety of plant species. The neat groups of plants, combined with lush carpet of Hairgrass, symbolise the modern European design. The hanging metal halide and T5 fluorescents provide intense lighting capable of growing the most demanding species, keeping them very compact. The tank also has auto-top up, sump and computer-controlled liquid fertiliser and CO2 dosing, making it relatively expensive to buy and run but the end results are truly magnificent! What you will need 150 x 45 x 70cm/60 x 18 x 28" tank, cabinet, sump and computer £1,500 [$2400.60] Two 150w metal halides and eight 24w T5 pendants £1,200 [$1920.48] Pressurised CO2 system and pH controller £400 [$640.16] Heater £20 [$32.00] Substrate £200 [$320.08] Liquid fertilisers and dosing sump £150 [$240.06] Décor £30 [$48.01] Plants £250 [$400.10] Total: Expect to pay £3,750 [$6001.50 may not add up correctly due to rounding of the conversions] \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50507	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: How to set up a planted tropical community aquarium

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3620&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_11_2011&utm_term=How_to_set_up_a_planted_tropical_community_aquarium&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4pfm958 [Photos at site] How to set up a planted tropical community aquarium New to fishkeeping? This planted aquarium is easy to set up, and is suitable for beginners who would like to grow live plants in their community tank. For our set-up, the aquarium we chose was a Juwel Trigon 190 with dark wood cabinet. The tank is a bow front corner aquarium which, due to its shape, should be placed in the corner of the room. We chose the Juwel tank as it can accommodate a number of different fish types and it comes with a built-in internal filter and heater. The built-in filter makes equipment choice less difficult and this particular filter (minus the carbon pad) we found to be good for planted aquaria. The heater thermostat, which keeps the water at the right temperature for the fish, sits inside the filter and is fitted in a place where it will receive a good flow of water. The heater is set to 25°C/77°F. We built the cabinet ourselves as it came flat packed, so make sure that you assemble it correctly as the tank will be heavy once filled. Our tank can be viewed from both sofas in the room it's in and is in the opposite corner to the television, so the two won't clash. The corner is particularly suitable as there aren't any radiators nearby which might cause the temperature of the tank to fluctuate. The French windows are opposite the tank but it is still the most suitable corner, and if sunlight does hit the tank during daylight hours, we can simply pull one of the curtains across. Set-up type The brief was to set up a tropical community tank with plants. A community aquarium is the most popular type of set-up - it houses a mix of fish that are all of a peaceful nature and a similar size, and which will all live happily alongside one another. We wanted to add some real plants which make the aquarium look much more natural and also make the fish feel more 'at home'. You can just add basic gravel, but if you want your plants to grow really well, rather than just survive, you really need to add a few extras to the basic set up. We started at the bottom: One useful tool for growing plants is the undergravel heating cable. This low wattage cable (usually below 50W depending on size,) emits warmth which causes convection currents to move water very slowly through the gravel and with it, nutrients that can then be taken up by the plant roots. Heating cables don't come with thermostats as they are generally not powerful enough to overheat the tank. Not everyone uses heating cables but most successful planted aquariums do, and to fit one and then turn it off in the future is far less trouble than to not fit one and have to strip the tank in order to put one in. Substrate is the aquatic world's term for the gravel or sand that goes on the bottom of the tank. In this case plant growth was a factor and so we needed something to feed the plants, and something to anchor the plants. The fertiliser came in the form of Tetra Complete Substrate, which contains nutrients to aid plant growth. The 'anchor' was a 10cm/4" layer of Unipac Senegal grit. You need a deep layer so that the plants can send the roots down, and the grain size should be quite small to aid anchoring and to allow the roots to push their way through it. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50508	From: kuradi8	Date: 2/12/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey

Isn't that the creature that lived in the asteroid where Han Solo hid the Millennium Falcon in the first Star Wars movie? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3618&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_11_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Sea_lamprey&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/48spgep > > Weird fish of the week: Sea lamprey > > Just what is it? Is it really a fish? Some scientists would argue that it probably isn't, but for now it stays on the honorary fish list, irrespective of how much it looks like a leech. > > The Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) looks more like something from science fiction than the sea, and has been confusing taxonomists for years. > > Lacking jaws, the animal instead relies on rings of rasping teeth to gnaw its way through the flanks of other fish, so that it can suck on the blood within. Not kept in check, they can become quite the pest, as has happened with several North American great lakes, where they blight fish farms and wild stocks alike. > > They don't even have bones, using a cartilage skeleton to support their bodies. Rows of gill slits live where most fish would have an operculum, and their bodies are devoid of a single scale. > > Not all species of lamprey are parasitic, but those that are should be feared. Big and strong, reaching lengths of up to a metre, 40", this is not the sort of parasite you can scrape off with a couple of flicks against the substrate. > > > > Unsurprisingly, this fish is not endangered, and for the gastronomically adventurous it is regarded as something of a delicacy in many countries. > > Lamprey and chips, anyone? > > Published: Nathan Hill Thursday 10 February 2011, 2:09 pm > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50509	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Blue-green algae and hair algae

As \\Steve// mentions, Erythromycin is harsh on nitrifying bacteria. Note too, that while some sources indicate this medication is safe for invertibrates, most reports state just the opposite so I am not advocating what to do here; be be advised there may be some danger and watch for behavior leading up to toxicity. That said, to use as a treatment in eliminating Blue-Green Algae (which it is very effective in doing) you need use only 1 (one) tablet per 25 gallons (the normal recommended dose for treating fish diseases is 1 tablet per 10 gallons). By this, you can see that its effects are reduced by 60% to a strength of only 40% -- which should go a long way in addressing a possible toxicity issue with "inverts," but you may have a problem trying to come up with the proper amount to dose a small 2 gallon bowl with it. I don't recall ever seeing it offered as a powder, but only in solid tablets as described above. One of the best ways to do this may be to dissolve a whole tablet in one 8 ounce measuring cup. Then, dump out 6.4 ounces of this (80%) retaining 1.6 ounces (20%) -- since your 2 gallon bowl holds only 20% of what a 10 gallon tank would hold. Then refill this cup (now holding the 1.6 ounces) with water, back up to 8 ounces, and dump 4.8 ounces (60%) of this out. The remaining 3.2 ounces (40%) is what would be needed to dose your 2 gallon tank for Blue-Green Algae. You may want to save the initial 6.4 ounces (the first dumping) of the Erythromycin solution to the refrigerator for possible re-dosing should you need it. The native, American Flag Killifish (Jordanella floridae) comes to mind as one that eats hair algae. Sorry to say, I don't know its attitude towards shrimp. I have no experience with nerite snails so I cannot offer a comment as to their eating the Cyanobacteria (Blue-Green Algae). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I've got problems in two tanks, my shrimp tank is getting taken over by hair algae to the point I'm worried it will start to damage the plants. > > In a 2-gallon bowl I've been using as a temporary tank I've just noticed a pretty bad blue-green algae problem - it has covered the plants in there including a crypt I'd rather keep. > > Any feedback on how go get rid of these without damaging the plants or aquatic life? I can empty the 2-gallon and scrub it down but am not sure how to be sure the plants won't re-infect wherever I put them. > > I do have nerite snails and I've heard they eat blue-green algae. Last time they were in there they kept trying to escape, so if there's a better alternative I'd like to hear it, don't want to lose my snails. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50510	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week

\\Steve//, GET WELL SOON !!! Hmmm . . . Razor Fish - - - ; Any relation to the Knife Fish < g >? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Sorry, all my one or two fans of this out there, I've been down with the flu for about a week now (and I cannot get a flu shot to try to prevent the flu) so I never got around to posting this as my time online has been limited. > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/4ck4p8f > > Weird fish of the week: Razor fish > > This week's candidate for Weird fish of the week is another occasional aquarium subject, the Razor or Shrimp fish, (Aeoliscus strigatus). > > There's little about these strange fish that isn't weird when compared to what most of us would think of as 'normal' fish anatomy. > > The obvious oddity of the Razor fish is its swimming position - they swim in a vertical position with their heads pointing downward and their tails up. > > This odd method of locomotion is made possible by some extreme body adaptation. Their dorsal fin is divided into two parts, the first of which is positioned on the end of the body where the caudal fin, (tail) would normally be, while the second dorsal and true caudal are positioned ventrally beside the anal fin. > > This peculiar arrangement means the fish moves around using a sculling motion of its pectoral fins in combination with waving movements of the adapted dorsal, caudal and anal fins, sometimes described as 'Balistiform swimming' after triggerfish which employ this method themselves. > > Razorfish are generally a shoaling species and groups of them achieve an impressive degree of synchronisation in their movement. Their cryptic swimming method make sense when they are seen in their natural environment, hidden among the spines of large Diadema sea urchins, sheltering among branching staghorn corals or gorgonians and hiding in sea grass beds. Here their vertical stance, along with a dark bar running from nose to tail means they can hide from both predators and potential prey such as copepods and zooplankton which they snap up in their tiny, toothless mouths. > > [Video available] > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50511	From: Eric Roberts	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week

It’s the knife fish’s much sharper cousin ;-) *rimshot* From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 06:27 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Weird Fish of Last Week \\Steve// <file:///\\Steve\> , GET WELL SOON !!! Hmmm . . . Razor Fish - - - ; Any relation to the Knife Fish < g >? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Sorry, all my one or two fans of this out there, I've been down with the flu for about a week now (and I cannot get a flu shot to try to prevent the flu) so I never got around to posting this as my time online has been limited. > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598 <http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598&utm_source=PFK_n ewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_ of_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html> &utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm _term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/4ck4p8f > > Weird fish of the week: Razor fish > > This week's candidate for Weird fish of the week is another occasional aquarium subject, the Razor or Shrimp fish, (Aeoliscus strigatus). > > There's little about these strange fish that isn't weird when compared to what most of us would think of as 'normal' fish anatomy. > > The obvious oddity of the Razor fish is its swimming position - they swim in a vertical position with their heads pointing downward and their tails up. > > This odd method of locomotion is made possible by some extreme body adaptation. Their dorsal fin is divided into two parts, the first of which is positioned on the end of the body where the caudal fin, (tail) would normally be, while the second dorsal and true caudal are positioned ventrally beside the anal fin. > > This peculiar arrangement means the fish moves around using a sculling motion of its pectoral fins in combination with waving movements of the adapted dorsal, caudal and anal fins, sometimes described as 'Balistiform swimming' after triggerfish which employ this method themselves. > > Razorfish are generally a shoaling species and groups of them achieve an impressive degree of synchronisation in their movement. Their cryptic swimming method make sense when they are seen in their natural environment, hidden among the spines of large Diadema sea urchins, sheltering among branching staghorn corals or gorgonians and hiding in sea grass beds. Here their vertical stance, along with a dark bar running from nose to tail means they can hide from both predators and potential prey such as copepods and zooplankton which they snap up in their tiny, toothless mouths. > > [Video available] > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// <file:///\\Steve\> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50512	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week

Ray, Perhaps, by some long and distant trail. The fish featured is marine, and all knife fishes I know are freshwater. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 7:27 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Weird Fish of Last Week \\Steve//, GET WELL SOON !!! Hmmm . . . Razor Fish - - - ; Any relation to the Knife Fish < g >? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Sorry, all my one or two fans of this out there, I've been down with the flu for about a week now (and I cannot get a flu shot to try to prevent the flu) so I never got around to posting this as my time online has been limited. > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_o f_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/4ck4p8f > > Weird fish of the week: Razor fish > > This week's candidate for Weird fish of the week is another occasional aquarium subject, the Razor or Shrimp fish, (Aeoliscus strigatus). > > There's little about these strange fish that isn't weird when compared to what most of us would think of as 'normal' fish anatomy. > > The obvious oddity of the Razor fish is its swimming position - they swim in a vertical position with their heads pointing downward and their tails up. > > This odd method of locomotion is made possible by some extreme body adaptation. Their dorsal fin is divided into two parts, the first of which is positioned on the end of the body where the caudal fin, (tail) would normally be, while the second dorsal and true caudal are positioned ventrally beside the anal fin. > > This peculiar arrangement means the fish moves around using a sculling motion of its pectoral fins in combination with waving movements of the adapted dorsal, caudal and anal fins, sometimes described as 'Balistiform swimming' after triggerfish which employ this method themselves. > > Razorfish are generally a shoaling species and groups of them achieve an impressive degree of synchronisation in their movement. Their cryptic swimming method make sense when they are seen in their natural environment, hidden among the spines of large Diadema sea urchins, sheltering among branching staghorn corals or gorgonians and hiding in sea grass beds. Here their vertical stance, along with a dark bar running from nose to tail means they can hide from both predators and potential prey such as copepods and zooplankton which they snap up in their tiny, toothless mouths. > > [Video available] > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50513	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks/Ray

Ray, I guess I don't really understand the problem here. I happened to respond to a post before seeing that you had responded to it, so I posted a link I knew offered accurate info in my response to the post I read. Thats all there was. If that has left you feeling somehow threatened, then I apologize, because that was not my intention. This would not be a first time in this group where more than one person has responded to a post with the same or similar information, and if anything, I would have thought you would be happy to see the link which supported the info I noticed you took the time to write, not irate and insulting. Am I to believe that all the times you answered posts with the same info someone else had already put there that you were "self promoting" as you accuse me of doing? To be honest, that thought never crossed my mind til you suggested it here. I don't need or want issues with you, here or anywhere else. I don't have the time or energy for that. I'm not sure how you expect me to read every post in a timely fashion considering we don't all read, contribute, or even get these posts all at the same time...??? If you have an idea to that solution I would be more than happy to hear it. I am not beyond cooperation and agreeing to disagree. We have been down this same road together in the past and I find that its getting a bit old. Can we please move forward? Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > I don't quite understand why you would say that. I posted my message on Wednesday (2/9) evening at 11:28PM. I didn't see your message until late the following afternoon (2/10) at 6:02PM -- even though you may have posted it earlier that afternoon (certainly not sooner or it would have been approved prior than the late afternoon). You had plenty of opportunity to see my message. > > That you indicate, that you didn't have time to write a long post would explain your using the link, but please know that if it were in answer to my remark that I expected that you may have explained it to us better, that I was being facetious there, in going by your past posts where you often try to get an upper hand to promote yourself. > > I just want to clarify that repetition of the same material that has already been posted previously serves no purpose. It is redundant, excessive and superfluous material having no further meaning, and becomes extraneous matter to the Subject. To repeat the same thing that somebody else has already said (without the courtesy of actually quoting them) as one's own idea -- whether in one's words or through the use of a link -- only has the appearance of being self-serving, as though to take credit for the original idea as trying to look like the originator of it. There's no need for the same information to be repeated ad nauseam. > > FISH !!! > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Ray, > > I posted the link before I read your post and also because I didn't have the time to write a long post. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was disappointed. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: > > > > > > > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > > > > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > > > > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > > > > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > > > > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > > > > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > > > > > into it on accident. > > > > > > > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > > > > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > > > > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > > > > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > > > > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > > > > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > > > > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > > > > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > > > > > in this thread of emails. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > > > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > > > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > > > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > > > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > > > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > > > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > > > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > > > > iridescent > > > > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > > > > > nature to > > > > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > > > > > closed > > > > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > > > > > the sack > > > > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > > > > > fish can > > > > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > > > > stunting, if you > > > > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > > > > > normally too > > > > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > > > > > a good > > > > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > > > > > or its > > > > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > > > > > replies) > > > > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > > > > > need, or > > > > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > > > > > 15% daily > > > > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > > > > > chemistry > > > > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > > > > > earlier about > > > > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > > > > > else > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > > > > > be and > > > > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > > > > > years old, > > > > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > > > > > tortoise, > > > > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > > > > > years. > > > > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > > > > > will live > > > > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > > > > > closer to > > > > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > > > > > plants you > > > > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > > > > > grow, > > > > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > > > > > longer > > > > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > > > > > that has > > > > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > diet, > > > > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > > > > > pop up > > > > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > > > > > changes to > > > > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > > > > > (but > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > > > > > they may > > > > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > > > > > water and > > > > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > > > > > you know > > > > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > > > > > parameters > > > > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > > > > walmart.com > > > > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > > > > > purpose). > > > > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > > > > > removing > > > > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > > > > > have to > > > > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > > > > > them) > > > > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > > > > > heard > > > > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > > > > > forget > > > > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > > > > > Someone > > > > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > > > > > syndrome > > > > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > > > > > japanese > > > > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > > > > > brown > > > > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > > > > > mayby a > > > > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > > > > > care > > > > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to > > > > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > > > > Membership" on the > > > > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > > > > > digest, which > > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > > > option > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50514	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks.

It's better to post the same info twice than wrong info once and right info once. I don't see what the big deal is myself? Amber On 2/12/2011 3:24 AM, Ray wrote: > > Dawn, > > I don't quite understand why you would say that. I posted my message > on Wednesday (2/9) evening at 11:28PM. I didn't see your message until > late the following afternoon (2/10) at 6:02PM -- even though you may > have posted it earlier that afternoon (certainly not sooner or it > would have been approved prior than the late afternoon). You had > plenty of opportunity to see my message. > > That you indicate, that you didn't have time to write a long post > would explain your using the link, but please know that if it were in > answer to my remark that I expected that you may have explained it to > us better, that I was being facetious there, in going by your past > posts where you often try to get an upper hand to promote yourself. > > I just want to clarify that repetition of the same material that has > already been posted previously serves no purpose. It is redundant, > excessive and superfluous material having no further meaning, and > becomes extraneous matter to the Subject. To repeat the same thing > that somebody else has already said (without the courtesy of actually > quoting them) as one's own idea -- whether in one's words or through > the use of a link -- only has the appearance of being self-serving, as > though to take credit for the original idea as trying to look like the > originator of it. There's no need for the same information to be > repeated ad nauseam. > > FISH !!! > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Ray, > > I posted the link before I read your post and also because I didn't > have the time to write a long post. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my > expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the > subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your > link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed > salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has > no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal > of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I > expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was > disappointed. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered > through Mississippi State University: > > > > > > > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in > it. He's a > > > > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many > problems getting > > > > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would > sometimes > > > > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his > tail fins > > > > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to > put a > > > > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get > sucked > > > > > into it on accident. > > > > > > > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right > away that I > > > > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a > shorter life > > > > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably > some sort of > > > > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said > in the > > > > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish > and may > > > > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > > > > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up > about it > > > > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little > I've heard > > > > > in this thread of emails. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous > thing for > > > > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural > adaptation > > > > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure > lakes and > > > > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood > syndrome? This is > > > > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not > adaptation. > > > > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in > it and > > > > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them > and could > > > > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > > > > iridescent > > > > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish > is not a > > > > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not > effective in > > > > > > > > nature to > > > > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium > due to its > > > > > > closed > > > > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it > right now, I > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to > as my brain, > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages > before I hit > > > > > > > > the sack > > > > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about > 11 AM? Getting > > > > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome > as well. A > > > > > > > > fish can > > > > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > > > > stunting, if you > > > > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will > cause the blood to > > > > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of > this, it is > > > > > > > > normally too > > > > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, > unless there is > > > > > > > > a good > > > > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of > your tank > > > > > > or its > > > > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages > attached to your > > > > > > > > replies) > > > > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. > However, you do need > > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water > chemistry could > > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long > run. If you do > > > > > > > > need, or > > > > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think > about doing > > > > > > 15% daily > > > > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. > Changes in water > > > > > > > > chemistry > > > > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better > off for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a > bit > > > > > > earlier about > > > > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others > here who > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of > the tank, > > > > > > else > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are > 6+ inches long. > > > > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the > tank because of > > > > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth > hormone I mentioned > > > > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they > would otherwise > > > > > > > > be and > > > > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well > over 100 > > > > > > > > years old, > > > > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it > died. Like > > > > > > tortoise, > > > > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in > excess of 25 > > > > > > years. > > > > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are > fish that > > > > > > will live > > > > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural > life span is > > > > > > > > closer to > > > > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar > to those > > > > > > plants you > > > > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. > The hatch, > > > > > > grow, > > > > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish > will have a > > > > > > longer > > > > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than > they would > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason > or another > > > > > > that has > > > > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be > missing from > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > diet, > > > > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an > aquarium as the > > > > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I > was going > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm > sure it will > > > > > > > > pop up > > > > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep > reading and asking > > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish > keeping. I > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I > can't comment on > > > > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from > there being too > > > > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough > water > > > > > > changes to > > > > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting > rather > > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I > would assume > > > > > > (but > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that > they are similar > > > > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change > all at once > > > > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how > different > > > > > > they may > > > > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? > Do you notice > > > > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the > water? If your > > > > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that > your tap > > > > > > water and > > > > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe > side until > > > > > > you know > > > > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend > doing something > > > > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other > day? In a 10 > > > > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of > waste and hormones > > > > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much > healthier until > > > > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can > afford, as you > > > > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out > how to get > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I > definitely > > > > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap > water > > > > > > parameters > > > > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one > (it's missing > > > > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away > without them, but > > > > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > > > > walmart.com > > > > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on > shipping and > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in > Alaska like I do, > > > > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently > have the "dip > > > > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable > as the test > > > > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you > shake your > > > > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise > they can settle > > > > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in > the future. > > > > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) > Ammonia, > > > > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized > clean bucket (you > > > > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from > walmart for this > > > > > > > > purpose). > > > > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor > product, but > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable > dosing your > > > > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the > amount of water in > > > > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get > to work > > > > > > removing > > > > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy > metals. Then go > > > > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, > make sure to > > > > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back > to them in the > > > > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours > (you may > > > > > > have to > > > > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you > don't want > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same > water again > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change > in 48 hours > > > > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes > your pH can > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because > if you do too > > > > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough > time between > > > > > > them) > > > > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change > in their tank > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what > you have > > > > > > heard > > > > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post > confusion. I > > > > > > forget > > > > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web > only thing and > > > > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other > sites find that > > > > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so > partial water > > > > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is > this good? > > > > > > Someone > > > > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called > brown blood > > > > > > syndrome > > > > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I > also read > > > > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller > then the > > > > > > japanese > > > > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent > sharks? Someone > > > > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them > because they > > > > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that > they dont get > > > > > > brown > > > > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to > the size of > > > > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or > more. It is hard > > > > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I > appreciate youre > > > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" > <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good > turnover of the > > > > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation > throughout the > > > > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce > the risk of > > > > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth > inhibiting hormones > > > > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these > hormones. As I > > > > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your > three Koi are > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of > a concern in a > > > > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep > their relatively > > > > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. > Still, you > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species > develop > > > > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This > makes them even > > > > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" > <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are > in a tank? > > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a > little, but > > > > > > mayby a > > > > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and > further prevent > > > > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an > experienced critter > > > > > > care > > > > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I > want to be > > > > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the > situation and give > > > > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique > personalities. I > > > > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive > ones. Am I > > > > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish > have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that > is NOT > > > > > > important to > > > > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > message MODIFY the > > > > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > > > > Membership" on the > > > > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > the > > > > > > digest, which > > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No > E-Mail > > > > > > option > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and > post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50515	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: O/T: was, New to fish and tanks/Ray

Hi Dawn, I approved you message only several minutes ago, and would have first gotten back to you on this before doing so recommending we take this off line, except fot the fact that seeing as you're being steadfast and cetain about not having seen (and I'm assuming, not having looked for [?]} my previous message of similar content that it's not necessary for you to apologize since it's my turn to offer apologies to you. I in no way feel threatened, and appreciate your concern, but I regret having not seen the picture as clearly as I could have and apologize for it. It initially appeared to me that having what I assumed to be the opportunity of having about 14 hours to have seen my message since it's posting, that you still went ahead with posting a link similar to my message as though I never posted. I will of course give you that, that you may not have received my message before posting yours, which is understandable, even if remote. I do think it prudent though, if one has any intentions of replying to another's post, that he or she first reads any prior posts that they have received so far, that's associated with the thread before proceeding to post their own, In this way, not only would duplication be avoided, but a more comprehensive picture of what has already been answered can be understood. While duplication can be supportive, especially when there is reference to the original post, it can also get redundant to some readers, and even boring to others. If and when I answer posts with the same info someone else has already put there, except for extenuating circumstances when I WILL NOT (for a particular purpose) credit the previous poster, I ALWAYS try to first give credit befor proceding any further. You will please note, as an example, that in my post to Haecklers this morning at 6:18 AM, that in wanting to reiterate the effects of Erythromycin on nitrifying bacteria, that I FIRST credited \\Steve's// early similar remark before I even went further. I would never think not to! I have ALWAYS tried to give proper credit first, to anyone who post information that I intend to proceed with in part or in whole. Normally, I would not proceed with posting a similar message in whole, as I don't see the need for it when it has already been posted. There are occasions when I'll use a similar part of other's prior message to help get the point across even stronger, but as I just said I always endeavor to give the first person the credit that they've already said it. I refrain from posting a matching message as I don't see it serving any purpose. If it's been said by someone, the point has already been given. To say the same thing, is just repetition -- and which is why I don't see a need for me to post it again -- except under circumstances where I want to reinforce THAT PERSON'S point, which can only be accomplished by acknowledging that first person, and then perhaps even adding to it from there on if one wants to proceed further. Internet rules may or may not dictate what ordinary everyday interactions of people should cover as proper etiquette in conversation, but in everyday life -- as far as saying something that someone else had already said in a conversation as though it were your original thought and without crediting or showing recognition to the first person who said it has the definite appearance of ignoring what was first said, as not acknowledging it. It takes on the appearance that the second person wants to look like they said it first, which is rude and an afront to the first person. It's really an insult to the first person, unless that first person is recognized or quoted (when in writing) for it. Without that, it takes on the appearance that as far as the second person is concerned, the first person never said anything since it looks like the second person wants to be solely credited for the idea. Yes, I've seen many such posts in the past that were very similar to a previous post, and which these posts never recognized the original poster for. Some of these posts were made by present members and many others were posted by members who are no longer active. I have, on occasion, brought their behavior to their attention as, depending on who the offender was there was a continous pattern to it, with complete disregard for anyone posting a prior message. I would also get a similar response that it strengthens the first post's idea, but it showed a lack of respect, as ignoring the first person. With that explanation of etiquette -- and I'm not saying you're guilty of this -- I'm hoping others may be able to benefit from it if they were unaware of it. Yes, let's move forward from here. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Ray, > I guess I don't really understand the problem here. I happened to respond to a post before seeing that you had responded to it, so I posted a link I knew offered accurate info in my response to the post I read. Thats all there was. If that has left you feeling somehow threatened, then I apologize, because that was not my intention. This would not be a first time in this group where more than one person has responded to a post with the same or similar information, and if anything, I would have thought you would be happy to see the link which supported the info I noticed you took the time to write, not irate and insulting. > Am I to believe that all the times you answered posts with the same info someone else had already put there that you were "self promoting" as you accuse me of doing? To be honest, that thought never crossed my mind til you suggested it here. > > I don't need or want issues with you, here or anywhere else. I don't have the time or energy for that. I'm not sure how you expect me to read every post in a timely fashion considering we don't all read, contribute, or even get these posts all at the same time...??? If you have an idea to that solution I would be more than happy to hear it. I am not beyond cooperation and agreeing to disagree. We have been down this same road together in the past and I find that its getting a bit old. Can we please move forward? > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > I don't quite understand why you would say that. I posted my message on Wednesday (2/9) evening at 11:28PM. I didn't see your message until late the following afternoon (2/10) at 6:02PM -- even though you may have posted it earlier that afternoon (certainly not sooner or it would have been approved prior than the late afternoon). You had plenty of opportunity to see my message. > > > > That you indicate, that you didn't have time to write a long post would explain your using the link, but please know that if it were in answer to my remark that I expected that you may have explained it to us better, that I was being facetious there, in going by your past posts where you often try to get an upper hand to promote yourself. > > > > I just want to clarify that repetition of the same material that has already been posted previously serves no purpose. It is redundant, excessive and superfluous material having no further meaning, and becomes extraneous matter to the Subject. To repeat the same thing that somebody else has already said (without the courtesy of actually quoting them) as one's own idea -- whether in one's words or through the use of a link -- only has the appearance of being self-serving, as though to take credit for the original idea as trying to look like the originator of it. There's no need for the same information to be repeated ad nauseam. > > > > FISH !!! > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > I posted the link before I read your post and also because I didn't have the time to write a long post. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > A good link, but I need to ask, why did you post it??? Wasn't my expanation of the Syndrome good enough for you? When I got to the subject of Brown Blood Syndrome, I said EXACTLY what was said in your link -- and didn't leave anything out, except for figuring the needed salt levels for 1 acre and 25 acre catfish ponds. But then, that has no relevancy here anyway. Your link neglected to mention the reversal of this Syndrome by the use of Methylene Blue, which I covered. I expected that you might have explained it to us better, but I was disappointed. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > This is a good explanation of brown blood syndrome offered through Mississippi State University: > > > > > > > > > > http://msucares.com/pubs/infosheets/is1390.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have a HOB filter on my 10 gallon tank with a male betta in it. He's a > > > > > > shorter finned male though, so he doesn't have too many problems getting > > > > > > around in the tank. When I had a longer finned betta he would sometimes > > > > > > get stuck to the intake of the filter and it would tear his tail fins > > > > > > occasionally, so if you're going to use a filter make sure to put a > > > > > > sponge around the intake of it, so your poor betta doesn't get sucked > > > > > > into it on accident. > > > > > > > > > > > > Growth inhibiting hormones won't make your fish sick right away that I > > > > > > know of, but it can stunt them for life (which causes a shorter life > > > > > > span and could possibly cause health issues). It's probably some sort of > > > > > > adaptation but not really a good one, as stunting (as I said in the > > > > > > previous sentence) quite often can be permanent for the fish and may > > > > > > never grow to full size, or live a full life either. > > > > > > > > > > > > Someone who knows more about Brown blood syndrome may speak up about it > > > > > > for you, but I know nothing about it myself, only what little I've heard > > > > > > in this thread of emails. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 2/9/2011 10:55 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So are the growth inhibiting hormones a bad or dangerous thing for > > > > > > > them? Will it hurt or kill them? It sounds like a natural adaptation > > > > > > > to me. Isnt that a good thing? I mean in nature I am sure lakes and > > > > > > > rivers get smaller right? And what about brown blood syndrome? This is > > > > > > > a deadly and bad thing it sounds like. And a disease not adaptation. > > > > > > > More like toxicity. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I get a betta for my five gal, can I leave the filter in it and > > > > > > > going? I heard to much movement in the water stresses them and could > > > > > > > cause them to get sick and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say the hormones were a myth, I was referring to the > > > > > > > iridescent > > > > > > > > sharks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 7:01 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The "myth" you refer to about a hormone that stunts fish is not a > > > > > > > > > myth. Fish > > > > > > > > > will release a hormone that retards growth. It is not effective in > > > > > > > > > nature to > > > > > > > > > any great degree, but is very effective in an aquarium due to its > > > > > > > closed > > > > > > > > > nature. I'm sorry that I can't give you t he name of it right now, I > > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > seem to locate it in this thing some refer laughingly to as my brain, > > > > > > > > > and I > > > > > > > > > am trying to get through about a hundred more messages before I hit > > > > > > > > > the sack > > > > > > > > > tonight. (When is the crack of dawn up there now, about 11 AM? Getting > > > > > > > > > about, what, 2-3 hours of daylight up there now?) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is also some truth behind the brown blood syndrome as well. A > > > > > > > > > fish can > > > > > > > > > die from it, which, of course does also cause a permanent > > > > > > > stunting, if you > > > > > > > > > know what I mean. It is nitrite poisoning that will cause the blood to > > > > > > > > > become brown. However, by the time you are aware of this, it is > > > > > > > > > normally too > > > > > > > > > late for the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Changing 50% of the water at a clip is a bit drastic, unless there is > > > > > > > > > a good > > > > > > > > > reason for doing so. I do not recall the parameters of your tank > > > > > > > or its > > > > > > > > > population (the reason to leave previous messages attached to your > > > > > > > > > replies) > > > > > > > > > so such radical water changing may be necessary. However, you do need > > > > > > > > > to be > > > > > > > > > careful about doing such water changes as your water chemistry could > > > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > > radically which is not good for the fish in the long run. If you do > > > > > > > > > need, or > > > > > > > > > feel you need, to be changing that much water, think about doing > > > > > > > 15% daily > > > > > > > > > water changes daily rather than 50% twice a week. Changes in water > > > > > > > > > chemistry > > > > > > > > > will be much more subtle, and your fish will be better off for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, I just scrolled down further, so ignore my comment a bit > > > > > > > earlier about > > > > > > > > > keep threads intact in one message (but there are others here who > > > > > > > should > > > > > > > > > make the attempt). You have the koi in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fish, no matter what kind, will not grow to the size of the tank, > > > > > > > else > > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > would be neon tetras kept in 100 gallon tanks that are 6+ inches long. > > > > > > > > > Doesn't happen. Fish seem to grow to the size of the tank because of > > > > > > > > > improper or no water changes, and that anti-growth hormone I mentioned > > > > > > > > > earlier. As a result, they are not as healthy as they would otherwise > > > > > > > > > be and > > > > > > > > > will have a shortened lifespan. Koi will live to be well over 100 > > > > > > > > > years old, > > > > > > > > > and the record holder was over 200 years old when it died. Like > > > > > > > tortoise, > > > > > > > > > they will outlive you. Goldfish will live to well in excess of 25 > > > > > > > years. > > > > > > > > > Various fish will have different life spans. There are fish that > > > > > > > will live > > > > > > > > > up to 18 months in an aquarium, though their natural life span is > > > > > > > > > closer to > > > > > > > > > a year or less, and they are known as annuals, similar to those > > > > > > > plants you > > > > > > > > > need to get new ones to plant each year in your garden. The hatch, > > > > > > > grow, > > > > > > > > > breed, and die within the space of a year. Often fish will have a > > > > > > > longer > > > > > > > > > life span when properly cared for in an aquarium than they would > > > > > > > in the > > > > > > > > > wild, but some have a lesser life span for some reason or another > > > > > > > that has > > > > > > > > > yet to be discovered about them. Something could be missing from > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > diet, > > > > > > > > > the water, whatever. They just do not do as well in an aquarium as the > > > > > > > > > compatriots in the wild. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shoot! Now I've lost my point and don't remember where I was going > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > this, but it should be enough to digest for a while. I'm sure it will > > > > > > > > > pop up > > > > > > > > > in this thread or another in the future. Just keep reading and asking > > > > > > > > > questions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:14 PM > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New to fish and tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are still a lot of myths out there regarding fish keeping. I > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > never heard about "brown blood syndrome" myself, so I can't comment on > > > > > > > > > that. I've just read that fish are often stunted from there being too > > > > > > > > > many growth hormones in their water, and without enough water > > > > > > > changes to > > > > > > > > > get rid of this growth hormone the fish becomes stunting rather > > > > > > > quickly. > > > > > > > > > Goldfish grow the most in their first few years, so I would assume > > > > > > > (but > > > > > > > > > I'm not sure about it, as I have never kept Koi) that they are similar > > > > > > > > > to goldfish in their growth pattern. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 x 50% water changes might be too drastic of a change all at once > > > > > > > > > (depending on your tap/tank water parameters and how different > > > > > > > they may > > > > > > > > > be). How long have you been doing these water changes? Do you notice > > > > > > > > > your fish acting any differently after you change the water? If your > > > > > > > > > fish all seem fine then chances are pretty good that your tap > > > > > > > water and > > > > > > > > > tank water does not differ too much, but on the safe side until > > > > > > > you know > > > > > > > > > what your tap water parameters are I would recommend doing something > > > > > > > > > like a 25% water change each time, perhaps every other day? In a 10 > > > > > > > > > gallon tank those Koi are going to put out a lot of waste and hormones > > > > > > > > > VERY fast, water changes will help keep your Koi much healthier until > > > > > > > > > you can get them into a bigger tank (as big as you can afford, as you > > > > > > > > > will have to upgrade again in the future and figure out how to get > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > into a good sized pond). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you done a tap water baseline test yet? If not I definitely > > > > > > > > > recommend doing one, as it will tell you what your tap water > > > > > > > parameters > > > > > > > > > will be once everything out gasses (chlorine, etc). > > > > > > > > > First get a good master test kit, API makes a good one (it's missing > > > > > > > > > tests for KH and GH, but for now you could get away without them, but > > > > > > > > > may want to purchase them in the future), it's about $17 at > > > > > > > walmart.com > > > > > > > > > and you can order it site-to-store so you can save on shipping and > > > > > > > just > > > > > > > > > pick it up at your local walmart (unless you live in Alaska like I do, > > > > > > > > > where that option is not available). If you currently have the "dip > > > > > > > > > strip" tests they are not nearly as accurate or reliable as the test > > > > > > > > > kits with vials and liquid reagents. Just make sure you shake your > > > > > > > > > liquid reagents very well before using them, otherwise they can settle > > > > > > > > > and separate and this may mess up your test results in the future. > > > > > > > > > After you have a good test kit that tests for (at least) Ammonia, > > > > > > > > > nitrite, nitrates, and pH, get yourself a good sized clean bucket (you > > > > > > > > > can also get cheap, unused, 5 gallon buckets from walmart for this > > > > > > > > > purpose). > > > > > > > > > A larger bucket is easier when dosing your dechlor product, but > > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > > > do this in a 1-2 gallon bucket if you feel comfortable dosing your > > > > > > > > > dechlor at such a small dose. > > > > > > > > > First fill the bucket and add your dechlor for the amount of water in > > > > > > > > > the bucket, wait a minute or two to let the dechlor get to work > > > > > > > removing > > > > > > > > > your chlorine/chloramines, and if you have them; heavy metals. Then go > > > > > > > > > ahead and do your first test with your master test kit, make sure to > > > > > > > > > record the numbers down somewhere so you can refer back to them in the > > > > > > > > > next 2 days. > > > > > > > > > Test the same water in the bucket again after 24 hours (you may > > > > > > > have to > > > > > > > > > put this bucket somewhere "safe" from kids/pets, as you don't want > > > > > > > them > > > > > > > > > playing in it or tipping it over), then test the same water again > > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > > another 24 hours. > > > > > > > > > This will tell you how much your water parameters change in 48 hours > > > > > > > > > time from just after coming out of the tap. Sometimes your pH can > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > > > drastically and this is VERY important to know, because if you do too > > > > > > > > > large of water changes (or too often with not enough time between > > > > > > > them) > > > > > > > > > you can easily shock and kill your fish from the change in their tank > > > > > > > > > water. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know nothing about iridescent sharks, but I doubt what you have > > > > > > > heard > > > > > > > > > is true, and possibly just another myth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 11:32 AM, Teegra wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Amber and Ray! And sorry about the post confusion. I > > > > > > > forget > > > > > > > > > > that most on here get post from email. I do the web only thing and > > > > > > > > > > just post under the topic I started. Also most other sites find that > > > > > > > > > > trimming youre posts makes things easier. Ok, so partial water > > > > > > > > > > changes. I have been doing 2 50 percent a week. Is this good? > > > > > > > Someone > > > > > > > > > > else told me that stunting is from a thing called brown blood > > > > > > > syndrome > > > > > > > > > > and that it is caused by oxyegen ratio to fish size. I also read > > > > > > > > > > somwhere that american pond koi are getting smaller then the > > > > > > > japanese > > > > > > > > > > show breeders koi. What do people do with iredescent sharks? Someone > > > > > > > > > > said that stunting isnt as much of a problem for them because they > > > > > > > > > > naturally live in less oxygenated places, and that they dont get > > > > > > > brown > > > > > > > > > > blood syndrome so much as they just REALLY do adapt to the size of > > > > > > > > > > their environment. As long as ther in a 70 gal or more. It is hard > > > > > > > > > > finding the facts in all the opinions and myths. I appreciate youre > > > > > > > > > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Teegra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A bubbler is always a good idea in ensuring a good turnover of the > > > > > > > > > > surface for gaseous exchanges and better circulation throughout the > > > > > > > > > > tank for distribution of oxygen. This will not reduce the risk of > > > > > > > > > > stunting as the fish continue to give off growth inhibiting hormones > > > > > > > > > > though. Only partial water changes can remove these hormones. As I > > > > > > > > > > believe I read elsewhere in this thread that your three Koi are > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > the size of your thumb, this shouldn't be too much of a concern in a > > > > > > > > > > 30 gallon tank, as normal PWC's should easily keep their relatively > > > > > > > > > > small amounts of these hormones at a minimal level. Still, you > > > > > > > need to > > > > > > > > > > keep up with these PWC's (partial water changes). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, as you are learning, many more advanced species develop > > > > > > > > > > individual personalities, habits and behaviors. This makes them even > > > > > > > > > > more fascinating to watch and enjoy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Teegra" <spiritpaw@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would a bubbler be a good idea while the Koi are in a tank? > > > > > > > I have > > > > > > > > > > a filter for a 30 gal, and it disturbs the water a little, but > > > > > > > mayby a > > > > > > > > > > bubbler will provide them with extra oxygen, and further prevent > > > > > > > > > stunting? > > > > > > > > > > > > I do realize I messed up and did what an experienced critter > > > > > > > care > > > > > > > > > > taker shouldnt, but I am NOT experienced with fish. I want to be > > > > > > > > > > though. So I am trying to make the best of the situation and give > > > > > > > > > > these koi the best. And they each have such unique personalities. I > > > > > > > > > > didnt realize that a fish could have such distinctive ones. Am I > > > > > > > > > > projecting my feelings or do others here notice fish have character? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > T > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > > important to > > > > > > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > > > SUBJECT > > > > > > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > > > unsubscribing, you > > > > > > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > > > > > > Membership" on the > > > > > > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > > > > > > digest, which > > > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > > > > option > > > > > > > > > where > > > > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50516	From: Ray	Date: 2/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of Last Week

Hi \\Steve//, Yes, of course. I know what you're saying. I was just trying to inject some humor here . Take care, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > Perhaps, by some long and distant trail. The fish featured is marine, and > all knife fishes I know are freshwater. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 7:27 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Weird Fish of Last Week > > \\Steve//, > > GET WELL SOON !!! > > > Hmmm . . . Razor Fish - - - ; Any relation to the Knife Fish < g >? > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > Sorry, all my one or two fans of this out there, I've been down with the > flu for about a week now (and I cannot get a flu shot to try to prevent the > flu) so I never got around to posting this as my time online has been > limited. > > > > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3598&utm_source=PFK_ne > wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_o > f_the_week:_Razor_fish&utm_content=html > > http://tinyurl.com/4ck4p8f > > > > Weird fish of the week: Razor fish > > > > This week's candidate for Weird fish of the week is another occasional > aquarium subject, the Razor or Shrimp fish, (Aeoliscus strigatus). > > > > There's little about these strange fish that isn't weird when compared to > what most of us would think of as 'normal' fish anatomy. > > > > The obvious oddity of the Razor fish is its swimming position - they swim > in a vertical position with their heads pointing downward and their tails > up. > > > > This odd method of locomotion is made possible by some extreme body > adaptation. Their dorsal fin is divided into two parts, the first of which > is positioned on the end of the body where the caudal fin, (tail) would > normally be, while the second dorsal and true caudal are positioned > ventrally beside the anal fin. > > > > This peculiar arrangement means the fish moves around using a sculling > motion of its pectoral fins in combination with waving movements of the > adapted dorsal, caudal and anal fins, sometimes described as 'Balistiform > swimming' after triggerfish which employ this method themselves. > > > > Razorfish are generally a shoaling species and groups of them achieve an > impressive degree of synchronisation in their movement. Their cryptic > swimming method make sense when they are seen in their natural environment, > hidden among the spines of large Diadema sea urchins, sheltering among > branching staghorn corals or gorgonians and hiding in sea grass beds. Here > their vertical stance, along with a dark bar running from nose to tail means > they can hide from both predators and potential prey such as copepods and > zooplankton which they snap up in their tiny, toothless mouths. > > > > [Video available] > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > \\Steve// > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50517	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/14/2011
Subject: male guppy

hi my male guppy has some black spots on his upper fin and i can't tell what they are because when ever i go to look he darts around the tank i will try to get a pic of him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50518	From: Melani	Date: 2/14/2011
Subject: Re: male guppy

I you sure they aren't just his coloring? Could you give us more info on your tank too? --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] male guppy To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 3:48 AM   hi my male guppy has some black spots on his upper fin and i can't tell what they are because when ever i go to look he darts around the tank i will try to get a pic of him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50519	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Turtle training

Hi guys just last week I acquired a malayan box turtle from our school, since they seemed to be unable to take care of it, they passed on the wheel to me. Well he seems to be doing just fine feeding well and quite active. I don't know his age yet but its size is about 6 1/2 to 7 inches long. Then I just wonder if would it really be possible to train them to do tricks or something, though I quite doubt it. Then again if it is really possible, could you guys share some tips or tricks on how to do so. Right now I really don't have any idea regarding this matter since I am a newbie in keeping turtles. So you comments and suggestions would really help. thanks

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50520	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training

Hello:    The Malayan Box Turtle (Cuora amboinensis) is from Southeast Asia with many of the turtles imported from Southern China and Malaysia.  The one you have is an adult.    Unfortunately, though Malaysian Box Turtles do very well in captivity and can live for decades they are not known for their bubbly personalities.  Some will feed from your fingers but many just retreat into their shells while you are around.  Red Ear Turtles are more personable and easy to get.  many of the tortoises can be quite friendly as well.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 6:30:27 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Turtle training   Hi guys just last week I acquired a malayan box turtle from our school, since they seemed to be unable to take care of it, they passed on the wheel to me. Well he seems to be doing just fine feeding well and quite active. I don't know his age yet but its size is about 6 1/2 to 7 inches long. Then I just wonder if would it really be possible to train them to do tricks or something, though I quite doubt it. Then again if it is really possible, could you guys share some tips or tricks on how to do so. Right now I really don't have any idea regarding this matter since I am a newbie in keeping turtles. So you comments and suggestions would really help. thanks [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50521	From: vickie	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training

On 2/15/2011 6:30 AM, Gian Carlo Miguel wrote: > > Hi guys just last week I acquired a malayan box turtle from our > school, since they seemed to be unable to take care of it, they passed > on the wheel to me. Well he seems to be doing just fine feeding well > and quite active. I don't know his age yet but its size is about 6 1/2 > to 7 inches long. > > Then I just wonder if would it really be possible to train them to do > tricks or something, though I quite doubt it. Then again if it is > really possible, could you guys share some tips or tricks on how to do > so. Right now I really don't have any idea regarding this matter since > I am a newbie in keeping turtles. So you comments and suggestions > would really help. > > thanks > How about clicker training? > http://www.clickerbunny.com/ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50522	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: male guppy

my tank is a ten gallon i have 2 live plants one fake plant one fake coral hiding spot a little mermaid saute three balloon bellied mollies him 2 female guppies and one Cory cat ________________________________ From: Melani <mlronkovitz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 14, 2011 9:32:12 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] male guppy I you sure they aren't just his coloring? Could you give us more info on your tank too? --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] male guppy To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 3:48 AM Â hi my male guppy has some black spots on his upper fin and i can't tell what they are because when ever i go to look he darts around the tank i will try to get a pic of him. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50523	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Low ph levels

A co-worker has had many customers with a similar problem recently, and any advice would be appreciated.  The customers have various size established tanks with various freshwater tropical fish.  They have had a common issue with their ph levels dropping.  Is there any way to answer their questions as to what is going on and what they might do to correct the problem.  Thanks, Denise "I feel more comfortable with gorillas than people. I can anticipate what a gorilla's going to do, and they're purely motivated."    Dian Fossey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50524	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/15/2011
Subject: Re: Low ph levels

Denise, Baseline tap water test? Does it show the pH dropping over 24 and 48 hours? The biological processes in the tank will cause pH to drop, particularly when the water has a weak buffer capability. Regular partial water changes should keep this in check, holding the variation in a small range. Water companies have a tendency to change water supplies, usually suddenly, without prior announcement. This can throw your baseline out the window. (My water supplier must have an aquarium guy in a position of power because every change that could affect aquarium fish is announced in advance, and under the head of Aquarium Owners, the change is explained as well as what the effect on fish could be.) Since this is happening in many people's tanks, it is not likely they all have a dead animal that has not been found causing the problem. Overfeeding could do this and it may be likely that more than one person in the group may do this. A general lack of information means that this is just a guessing game, but right now, I'd put money on the tap water as being a culprit as it would be in any group of disparate tanks with a common problem. More information could lead to a better diagnosis of the problem. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Monroe Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Low ph levels A co-worker has had many customers with a similar problem recently, and any advice would be appreciated.  The customers have various size established tanks with various freshwater tropical fish.  They have had a common issue with their ph levels dropping.  Is there any way to answer their questions as to what is going on and what they might do to correct the problem.  Thanks, Denise "I feel more comfortable with gorillas than people. I can anticipate what a gorilla's going to do, and they're purely motivated."    Dian Fossey

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50525	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/16/2011
Subject: Re: Low ph levels

Thank you!! Denise "I feel more comfortable with gorillas than people. I can anticipate what a gorilla's going to do, and they're purely motivated."    Dian Fossey --- On Tue, 2/15/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Low ph levels To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 9:40 PM   Denise, Baseline tap water test? Does it show the pH dropping over 24 and 48 hours? The biological processes in the tank will cause pH to drop, particularly when the water has a weak buffer capability. Regular partial water changes should keep this in check, holding the variation in a small range. Water companies have a tendency to change water supplies, usually suddenly, without prior announcement. This can throw your baseline out the window. (My water supplier must have an aquarium guy in a position of power because every change that could affect aquarium fish is announced in advance, and under the head of Aquarium Owners, the change is explained as well as what the effect on fish could be.) Since this is happening in many people's tanks, it is not likely they all have a dead animal that has not been found causing the problem. Overfeeding could do this and it may be likely that more than one person in the group may do this. A general lack of information means that this is just a guessing game, but right now, I'd put money on the tap water as being a culprit as it would be in any group of disparate tanks with a common problem. More information could lead to a better diagnosis of the problem. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Monroe Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 8:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Low ph levels A co-worker has had many customers with a similar problem recently, and any advice would be appreciated.  The customers have various size established tanks with various freshwater tropical fish.  They have had a common issue with their ph levels dropping.  Is there any way to answer their questions as to what is going on and what they might do to correct the problem.  Thanks, Denise "I feel more comfortable with gorillas than people. I can anticipate what a gorilla's going to do, and they're purely motivated."    Dian Fossey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50526	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/16/2011
Subject: Betta with a small lump on her face

One of my female betta's seems to have developed a small bump on the front of her face (below one of her eyes). It's not red or discolored in any way, just looks slightly swollen on the left side of her face. I do water changes in this tank every other day minimum, to keep the nitrates low. The tank is 2 years old (walstad setup) so it's not cycling at all. I do weekly filter cleanings (sometimes more often than that). I do 50% water changes every other day (my tap water is very very close to my tank water parameters). The pH is 7.2, no ammonia or nitrites and right now the nitrates are low because I just did a water change this morning. For a few days I had her in a 10 gallon by herself until I noticed the filter was in a mini cycle and I had some nitrites in the tank, so I re-acclimated her back into the 55 gallon. And swapped a cycled filter from another tank (spare that I keep running so it's cycled) so that my new shrimp weren't put into a cycling tank (that may sound confusing, basically I swapped the filter that was in a mini cycle for one that should have already been cycled on another tank). So for a few days the betta was in a 10 gallon with .25 ppm nitrites, could this have caused her bump? I just moved her back into the 55 gallon last night. I can get a cheap 5 gallon tank from walmart and quarantine her with a round of meds, is there one that someone specifically suggests I use for a lump? When I googled "lump on betta head" it came up with a lot of people posting similar problems with no suggestions on how to fix it (go figure), but it seems somewhat common of a problem. On one forum someone suggested it was a wart like growth caused from dirty water (could have been the nitrites in the 10 gallon), if that's the case should I worry now that I've moved her? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50527	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick. The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart. They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid. I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick. I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas. The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day. We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater. I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills. They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new. No wonder so many new aquariums fail!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50528	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

Hi Haecklers,   I have read your comments on this heater and I would like to suggest this.  After you test a new heater and know it is working properly,make yourself a small pail (about 3 gallons) of water and add about 2 ounces of Clorox to it.    Soak the new heater, unplugged of course, for at least 24 hours.  This problem should go away as this concentration should kill anything.  Before putting the heater into a tank with fish, scrub it as you have been doing and then give it at least another day or so in fresh clean water.  Again, prior to use, allow the heater to adjust and air-dry for a couple of hours.  Set it to your desired temp, install  in the aquarium and then plug it in.  Make sure you allow the heater a chance to sample the water in the tank at its temperature so don't plug it in immediately.   Finally, I would check the heater packaging and try to get some manufacture information. Give them a call and see if you can find out more about the heaters assembling or packaging that is causing this problem for you.   Bill --- On Thu, 2/17/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 8:47 AM I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick.  The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart.  They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid.  I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick.  I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas.  The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day.  We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater.  I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills.  They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new.  No wonder so many new aquariums fail! ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50529	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

Thanks, that sounds really helpful. I think I'll do your Chlorox soak then scrub it with baking soda then vinegar. The alkaline and acids should neutralize any remaining chemicals on the outside of it and also remove the chlorine residue. I'll run the tank with a few guppies for a few days since they seem to react to whatever it is so quickly. If they're ok then we'll return the bettas. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Haecklers, >   > I have read your comments on this heater and I would like to > suggest this.  After you test a new heater and know it is working > properly,make yourself a small pail (about 3 gallons) of water and add about 2 ounces of Clorox to it.  >   > Soak the new heater, unplugged of course, for at least 24 hours.  This problem should go away as this concentration should kill anything.  Before putting the heater into a tank with fish, scrub it as you have been doing and then give it at least another day or so in fresh clean water.  Again, prior to use, allow the heater to adjust and air-dry for a couple of hours.  Set it to your desired temp, install  in the aquarium and then plug it in.  Make sure you allow the heater a chance to sample the water in the tank at its temperature so don't plug it in immediately. >   > Finally, I would check the heater packaging and try to get some manufacture information. > Give them a call and see if you can find out more about the heaters assembling or packaging that is causing this problem for you. >   > Bill > > --- On Thu, 2/17/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 8:47 AM > > > I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick.  The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. > > I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. > > The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart.  They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. > > Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid.  I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. > > The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick.  I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. > > The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. > > This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas.  The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day.  We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater.  I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. > > Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills.  They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. > > To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new.  No wonder so many new aquariums fail! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50530	From: bill 1433	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

Just remember that Clorox is a great cleaning tool but always give or allow a good soak in just plain water for a day or so.  Even if you rise it well.  Why take the chance with your fish?  Give it a good days soak before you use it to be sure.   Bill --- On Thu, 2/17/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 10:59 AM Thanks, that sounds really helpful.  I think I'll do your Chlorox soak then scrub it with baking soda then vinegar. The alkaline and acids should neutralize any remaining chemicals on the outside of it and also remove the chlorine residue. I'll run the tank with a few guppies for a few days since they seem to react to whatever it is so quickly.  If they're ok then we'll return the bettas. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Haecklers, >   > I have read your comments on this heater and I would like to > suggest this.  After you test a new heater and know it is working > properly,make yourself a small pail (about 3 gallons) of water and add about 2 ounces of Clorox to it.  >   > Soak the new heater, unplugged of course, for at least 24 hours.  This problem should go away as this concentration should kill anything.  Before putting the heater into a tank with fish, scrub it as you have been doing and then give it at least another day or so in fresh clean water.  Again, prior to use, allow the heater to adjust and air-dry for a couple of hours.  Set it to your desired temp, install  in the aquarium and then plug it in.  Make sure you allow the heater a chance to sample the water in the tank at its temperature so don't plug it in immediately. >   > Finally, I would check the heater packaging and try to get some manufacture information. > Give them a call and see if you can find out more about the heaters assembling or packaging that is causing this problem for you. >   > Bill > > --- On Thu, 2/17/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, February 17, 2011, 8:47 AM > > > I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick.  The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. > > I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. > > The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart.  They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. > > Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid.  I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. > > The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick.  I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. > > The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. > > This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas.  The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day.  We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater.  I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. > > Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills.  They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. > > To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new.  No wonder so many new aquariums fail! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50531	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

Did the heaters fail to make the fish sick once you'd had them for awhile? Because cheap heaters are infamous for malfunctioning and cooking your fish. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick. The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart. They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid. I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick. I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas. The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day. We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater. I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills. They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new. No wonder so many new aquariums fail! ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50532	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Top fin heater

i bought one and it went to a 110 degrees and killed my fish [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50533	From: haecklers	Date: 2/17/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

No, none of mine have overheated the water, they just have some chemical on them that makes the fish sick when they are brand new. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Did the heaters fail to make the fish sick once you'd had them for awhile? > Because cheap heaters are infamous for malfunctioning and cooking your fish. > > Yours, > Villandra Thorsdottir > Austin, Texas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2011 7:47 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick > > > I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in > my tank got sick. The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the > heater. > > I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand > and again it made the fish sick. > > The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart. > They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or > off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of > them now. > > Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and > they went pale and hid. I was having problems with them anyway from bad > handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. > > The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish > in there got sick. I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a > large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water > change. > > The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the > guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery > near the top. > > This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas. The > tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and > rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks > that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins > and stopped swimming or eating within a day. We removed them to clean water > and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater. I think I'll wait for > the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them > back in. > > Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is > irritating or damaging their gills. They've been in clean water overnight > and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. > > To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some > off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is > brand new. No wonder so many new aquariums fail! > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50534	From: Teegra	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Turtle training

I am new to aqutic animals, but I highly sugesst clicker training. With a light mayby instead of a clicker. Fish are highly trainable, and I even know of a infamous hermit crab that was trained by karen pryor to ring a bell, by pulling a string. If he isnt very motivated by food or treats or something you can give imedietly it will be hard going but every living thing responds to Positive reinforcement. At the least you might be able to train him to station in a certain spot for feeding and examineing. Teegra

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50535	From: Melani	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: fish eyes

My one krib has a foggy right eye. It just appered yesterday. What is wrong with her eye? She swims around pefectly fine.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50536	From: Ray	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes

Hi Melani, Seems as though there is a slight bacterial infection setting into the cornea of this eye. This can easily happen if the fish ran into something (a rock, a plastic plant, or . . . ) during the night in the dark. Or, it could have just as easily happened during a scrap with another fish, or for that matter with another Krib, if you have one -- especially a male, since you said this is a female. For treatment, it would be best if it were isolated to another (hospital) tank. If it's just a mild cloudiness, as I seem to gather from your description, use Acriflavin to treat this type of injury/condition, or A.P.I's liquid Fungus Cure in a red and yellow labeled plastic bottle -- it contains Acriflavin as its main ingredient. If it has gotten more advanced since yesterday, Furan 2 will arrest the infection and clear the eye up. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > My one krib has a foggy right eye. It just appeared yesterday. What is wrong with her eye? She swims around perfectly fine. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50537	From: Denise Monroe	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@...> wrote: From: PetSmart <petperks@...> Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@...> Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM Marineland submersible heater recall If you are having trouble reading this PetSmart® email, please click here.   February 17, 2011  Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to a quality issue. On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine which heater came in your kit. If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to the store. If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the following steps: 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes 3. Remove the heater from the tank Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer Service at 800-338-4896. At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. Sincerely, Debbie Gonzalez Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing   Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or contact us through our Customer Service pages. PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau Claire, WI 54701. © 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual property [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50538	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Teenage Goldfish Killer "Didn't want to leave witnesses"

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3641&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_18_2011&utm_term=Teenage_goldfish_killer_didnt_want_to_leave_witnesses&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4sq5vus Teenage goldfish killer 'didn't want to leave witnesses' A teenager killed three goldfish because he "didn't want to leave any witnesses". The 16-year-old from Arlington Heights in Illinois, USA, is charged with burglary and animal cruelty after breaking into an apartment in January along with two other boys and stealing a video game system, CD player, video games, DVDs, a BB gun, jewellery and a safe. When the residents returned home they also found their goldfish dead after hot sauce, mustard, ketchup and spices had been poured into the water. Sgt. Mike Hernandez of the Arlington Heights Police Department told the Daily Herald: "As a matter of fact, it's a little disturbing. According to the police report, he looked at the fish tank and said: 'We can't leave any witnesses.'" All three boys will be tried in juvenile court. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Wednesday 16 February 2011, 3:06 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50539	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Teenage Goldfish Killer "Didn't want to leave witnesses"

that's just plan wrong ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, February 18, 2011 8:03:27 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Teenage Goldfish Killer "Didn't want to leave witnesses" http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3641&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_18_2011&utm_term=Teenage_goldfish_killer_didnt_want_to_leave_witnesses&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4sq5vus Teenage goldfish killer 'didn't want to leave witnesses' A teenager killed three goldfish because he "didn't want to leave any witnesses". The 16-year-old from Arlington Heights in Illinois, USA, is charged with burglary and animal cruelty after breaking into an apartment in January along with two other boys and stealing a video game system, CD player, video games, DVDs, a BB gun, jewellery and a safe. When the residents returned home they also found their goldfish dead after hot sauce, mustard, ketchup and spices had been poured into the water. Sgt. Mike Hernandez of the Arlington Heights Police Department told the Daily Herald: "As a matter of fact, it's a little disturbing. According to the police report, he looked at the fish tank and said: 'We can't leave any witnesses.'" All three boys will be tried in juvenile court. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Wednesday 16 February 2011, 3:06 pm \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50540	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

Interesting that I found nothing on the Marineland site about this recall. A quick search showed a lot of people talking about it in various forums, and a letter on the PetsMart e-mail site, which is similar to but it did not have the graphics referenced in this letter, nor the instructions for removal. Do also note this has nothing to do with the Top Fin heaters discussed earlier this week. This is a Marineland *submersible* heater. If you have one that matches the description given, take it to a PetsMart for a replacement. Apparently no receipt and no box is required, just the heater. The problem appears to be that the water gets too hot or not hot enough, depending on the post you may be reading. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Denise Monroe Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 1:30 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters --- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@...> wrote: From: PetSmart <petperks@...> Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@...> Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM Marineland submersible heater recall If you are having trouble reading this PetSmart® email, please click here.   February 17, 2011  Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to a quality issue. On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine which heater came in your kit. If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to the store. If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the following steps: 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes 3. Remove the heater from the tank Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer Service at 800-338-4896. At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. Sincerely, Debbie Gonzalez Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing   Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or contact us through our Customer Service pages. PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau Claire, WI 54701. © 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual property [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50541	From: Ray	Date: 2/18/2011
Subject: Re: Top Fin Aquarium Heater made fish sick

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I posted earlier that after putting in a new aquarium heater all the fish in my tank got sick. The feedback I received was that it probably wasn't the heater. > > I wanted to let folks know that I just got another heater of the same brand and again it made the fish sick. > > The product is the Top Fin Submersible Aquarium Heater sold by Pet Smart. They are a pretty good product, once you get them completely cleaned or off-gassed or whatever the toxic issue is that makes fish sick - I have 4 of them now. > > Ironically, the first one I bought went in with my new Jack Dempsey fry and they went pale and hid. I was having problems with them anyway from bad handling during shipping and didn't link it to the heater. > > The next one I bought went in a new (used) 20-gallon long, and all the fish in there got sick. I had just treated them with levamisole and had done a large water change and blamed it on the stress of the medication and water change. > > The third time, it was a healthy, established tank and overnight all the guppies clamped their fins and went motionless, staying in a clump of misery near the top. > > This last time I got one for a 10-gallon divided tank for 3 bettas. The tank was brand new, I cleaned it the way I always do with baking soda and rinsed well, used substrate from the same bags I've used in 8 other tanks that went well, and for some reason all 3 healthy fish clamped their fins and stopped swimming or eating within a day. We removed them to clean water and will do a 100% water change and scrub the heater. I think I'll wait for the fish to recover and run the tank empty for a few days before I put them back in. > > Their gills look swollen so I think whatever is coming off the heater is irritating or damaging their gills. They've been in clean water overnight and still are stressed and the gills don't seem to have recovered yet. > > To me this in conclusive proof that there is some sort of coating or some off-gassing that occurs with this product that makes fish sick when it is brand new. No wonder so many new aquariums fail! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50542	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: superworm myth

Hi guys! I bought superworms from the pet shop yesterday and fed it to my box turtle whole bodied. Then after some research from the net some sites say that SUPERWORMS WILL EAT THEIR WAY OUT OF YOUR PETS INTESTINE IF EATEN ALIVE! Well, on the contrary, many of them say that this is not true and has no basis at all. I would just like to ask the opinion of you guys about this matter. The turtle seems fine though and quite enjoyed the treat I gave him yesterday. thanks!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50543	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: newborn platy fry

Just got a new batch of platy fry today. Well I'm planning to feed them crushed flake food and egg yolk since B.B.S isn't available here in our locality. Do any of you guys have any other food suggestion for them aside from what I've mentioned? Any other option would be of great help. Thanks and God Bless!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50544	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

On another forum it was stated that the recall has long been an internet myth. FWIW _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters Interesting that I found nothing on the Marineland site about this recall. A quick search showed a lot of people talking about it in various forums, and a letter on the PetsMart e-mail site, which is similar to but it did not have the graphics referenced in this letter, nor the instructions for removal. Do also note this has nothing to do with the Top Fin heaters discussed earlier this week. This is a Marineland *submersible* heater. If you have one that matches the description given, take it to a PetsMart for a replacement. Apparently no receipt and no box is required, just the heater. The problem appears to be that the water gets too hot or not hot enough, depending on the post you may be reading. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Denise Monroe Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 1:30 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters --- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@... <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > wrote: From: PetSmart <petperks@... <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@... <mailto:kprdenise%40yahoo.com> > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM Marineland submersible heater recall If you are having trouble reading this PetSmart® email, please click here. February 17, 2011 Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to a quality issue. On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine which heater came in your kit. If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to the store. If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the following steps: 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes 3. Remove the heater from the tank Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer Service at 800-338-4896. At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. Sincerely, Debbie Gonzalez Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or contact us through our Customer Service pages. PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau Claire, WI 54701. © 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual property [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50545	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth

Once they hit the stomach and the digestive juices they are goners. Besides, turtles tend to chomp on their food. I wouldnt worry about it. Enid ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 2:59:01 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] superworm myth Hi guys! I bought superworms from the pet shop yesterday and fed it to my box turtle whole bodied. Then after some research from the net some sites say that SUPERWORMS WILL EAT THEIR WAY OUT OF YOUR PETS INTESTINE IF EATEN ALIVE! Well, on the contrary, many of them say that this is not true and has no basis at all. I would just like to ask the opinion of you guys about this matter. The turtle seems fine though and quite enjoyed the treat I gave him yesterday. thanks! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50546	From: haecklers	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry

When I had them they did fine on just crumbled flakes. The biggest challenge was keeping them from being eaten by the other fish. They can also get some food from diatoms and stuff from your tank, unless you keep it crazy-clean. Baby fish benefit from being fed several times a day, they have small bellies and fast metabolisms. The best fry growth I got was when I went out of town and left one of those vacation feeders in my tank. Access to food all day long really created a huge growth spurt in my fry. Back then I only fed once or twice a day. Now I've started raising microworms. Fish fry love them, and they're pretty easy to raise (much easier than baby brine shrimp!!!) They need to eat any sort of grain mixed with some yeast and water to make a paste, and you need to start new cultures every couple of weeks because they eventually get really stinky. I use take-out containers for mine, made holes in the lids with a thumb-tack. The worms climb the walls of the container and you just wipe them off and put them in the tank. They slowly sink and lay on the floor of the tank wiggling. Fry can't resist them, and even adult guppies like them. They can live in the tank for 5 days, so you don't need to worry about overfeeding, either, as long as you have a few snails to clean up any that do get missed. Baby Platies are really cute and squishy-looking! Congrats on your new babies!!! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Just got a new batch of platy fry today. Well I'm planning to feed them crushed flake food and egg yolk since B.B.S isn't available here in our locality. Do any of you guys have any other food suggestion for them aside from what I've mentioned? Any other option would be of great help. > > Thanks and God Bless! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50547	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

Donna, All the stuff I found is recent. A letter from PetsMart can be found at http://petsmart-mail.com/P/v3/Microsite.asp?E=1524;812537;1930616628;25;02&R =T1_ONL&A=1007 (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4u9wm6h ) with a date of February 11, 2011. This site appears to be legitimately registered to PetsMart with an address of PetsMart corporate offices. However, not being able to find a confirmation on the Marineland site does worry me. I would expect to find such, even if the heater lots were exclusively sold to and/or through PetsMart. It may be worth a call to Marineland to get to the bottom of this. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donna Ransome Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:35 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters On another forum it was stated that the recall has long been an internet myth. FWIW _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters Interesting that I found nothing on the Marineland site about this recall. A quick search showed a lot of people talking about it in various forums, and a letter on the PetsMart e-mail site, which is similar to but it did not have the graphics referenced in this letter, nor the instructions for removal. Do also note this has nothing to do with the Top Fin heaters discussed earlier this week. This is a Marineland *submersible* heater. If you have one that matches the description given, take it to a PetsMart for a replacement. Apparently no receipt and no box is required, just the heater. The problem appears to be that the water gets too hot or not hot enough, depending on the post you may be reading. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Denise Monroe Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 1:30 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters --- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@... <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > wrote: From: PetSmart <petperks@... <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@... <mailto:kprdenise%40yahoo.com> > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM Marineland submersible heater recall If you are having trouble reading this PetSmartR email, please click here. February 17, 2011 Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to a quality issue. On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine which heater came in your kit. If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to the store. If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the following steps: 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes 3. Remove the heater from the tank Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer Service at 800-338-4896. At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. Sincerely, Debbie Gonzalez Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or contact us through our Customer Service pages. PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau Claire, WI 54701. C 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual property

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50548	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Book for beginners

I think it was a week or two ago someone mentioned the Baensch Atlas as a good book for beginners. Just found a great price on one on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220741776300&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 This is not my auction, nor anyone I know. -Mike G

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50549	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: FW: PVAS Chili Cookoff at Next Meeting!

Anyone who happens to be in the DC area the first weekend in March may want to stop by at the PVAS meeting. Information is below. Topic is barbs, and there should be plenty of chili. Directions to the meeting site will be found at http://www.pvas.com/meetings.php. \\Steve// From: Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 11:25 AM To: Subject: PVAS Chili Cookoff at Next Meeting! Hey PVAS Folks, I realize this is a little early for my meeting notice, but I wanted to put a special email out there to announce our first "CHILI COOKOFF" at the next PVAS meeting on Saturday, March 4th at 1:00 PM.  Please cook your best chili, put it in a crockpot and bring it to the meet for a fun competition between fish-lovers!  There will be a grand prize, and two runner up prizes for the winners.    If you don't have a crockpot, let us know and we'll find a warming plate or extra crockpot for you.    Just cook a goodly quantity of your best, most delicious chili and bring it on!  Our hospitality team will bring extras such as corn bread, frito scoops, shredded cheese, sour cream, tabasco and cups and spoons for the event.   Water and sodas will also be provided, but we could use some sweets!  If anyone wants to bring some cookies, brownies, cupcakes, or fruit, it would be greatly appreciated.   Please let "Team Hospitality" know on the forum. You can track the chili cook off and March's refreshment happenings over on the PVAS forum at:  http://www.pvas.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=3 Our hospitality chairman, Michael has asked that chili-cookoff participants give him notice of their participation, so please let us know if you're bringing an entry for the cookoff on the forum. Also, the hospitality team is looking for a couple more judges.  If you are not participating with chili and would like to be a judge, please let Michael know on the forum! This is going to be so much fun!  We have Stephan Tanner coming in to talk about "Barbs", we will have great eats, there will be a ton of great stuff in the raffle, the group order will be frozen foods (order on the forum) and we'll have our world-famous mini-auction.  I happen to know there will be BARBS in that auction in honor of the speaker's presentation, so if you are looking for barbs, come on down! Check you on the forums!  Until March, Sherry

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50550	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth

There is some truth to this. This does not happen all the time or in every animal that eats the worms, it is more dependent upon animal species and digestive rates, strength of stomach acids, etc. There is a simple solution that many reptile and amphibian keepers & breeders use so as not to take chances. Before feeding the super worms to your pet, chop the head off of the worm. The nutritional value of the worms is in the body segment, not the head. The only drawback is that some animals won't eat the worms if they aren't alive and moving, so this may take some training on your part. This same thing also applies to standard meal worms and any other "grub" type of worm, and is most often seen as a problem in amphibians such as salamanders and newts... but it is not impossible to harm a reptile the same way. The reason so many take precautions against this is because the damage is internal and by the time a person would notice any kind of problem in their pet it is usually too late to fix it/get help to save it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > Hi guys! > > I bought superworms from the pet shop yesterday and fed it to my box turtle whole bodied. Then after some research from the net some sites say that SUPERWORMS WILL EAT THEIR WAY OUT OF YOUR PETS INTESTINE IF EATEN ALIVE! Well, on the contrary, many of them say that this is not true and has no basis at all. I would just like to ask the opinion of you guys about this matter. The turtle seems fine though and quite enjoyed the treat I gave him yesterday. > > > thanks! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50551	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Genuine Flying Fish - Batteries Required

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3642&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_18_2011&utm_term=Genuine_flying_fish_-_batteries_required&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4lessn2 [Video available at site] Genuine flying fish - batteries required Fish that fly? They're the ultimate in fish gadgets for the true aquatic fanatic - or maybe they're a way to finally get the kids involved! These new remote controlled helium balloon fish, or Air Swimmers, are due to hit the markets in July at around $40 apiece. The fish, rather than being confined to the water, 'swim' through the air in a rather convincing manner and come in two shapes: the ever-popular clownfish and a shark. The hinged tails swish as the fish glide around for up to four hours before needing a new set of batteries. A remote control allows the user to manoeuvre the fish around obstacles. The helium, however, will last for perhaps two weeks at best. These will certainly make a fantastic party piece and watching them glide is a spectacle in itself, as the video shows. The fish will be available in flower shops and anywhere that sells balloons in the USA. As for the UK...wait and see. Published: Joanne Kelly Thursday 17 February 2011, 11:58 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50552	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/19/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Pinecone Fish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3644&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_18_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Pinecone_fish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4kqjpdd [Video and photo at site] Weird fish of the week: Pinecone fish This week's weird fish is surely one of the more odd species regularly offered for sale in the marine hobby, Monocentris japonica, commonly known as the Pinecone fish. These spiky customers certainly live up to their common name with a body covered in large bony scutes, (plate-like scales), most of which are topped with ridges or spines. Each of these armour plates is boldly edged in black which contrasts beautifully with their largely yellow body. If this fearsome protective covering fails to ward off the unwanted attentions of any hungry passing predators then the fish is also equipped with enlarged, lockable dorsal and pelvic fin spines to stick in the throat of anything foolhardy enough to try swallowing them. These fish are largely nocturnal which helps explain another weird thing about them - two bioluminescent light organs,(photophores) on either side of their chin. This light is produced with the aid of a symbiotic bacteria within the photophore and it is believed to help attract zooplankton which make up much of their diet. They are a shoaling species and it has also been suggested that the light may act as a form of communication between the fish. Found largely in the sublittoral zone, (the area of sea where sunlight can reach the ocean floor) they spend the day in caves or under ledges and rocky overhangs of reefs, waiting for darkness to fall when they venture out in search of food. Growing to around 17cm/6.5in, they are found in the Indo-West Pacific from South Africa and the Red Sea eastwards as far as Australia and New Zealand. As an aquarium subject they are generally considered difficult to maintain long term, with a large percentage believed to perish before they even reach the hobbyist due to poor handling and lack of appropriate food among other issues. Another similar species is also sometimes imported, the closely related but larger Pineapple fish, Cleidopus gloriamaris which, besides its greater size, can be distinguished from M.japonica by having a blunt, more rounded snout. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 17 February 2011, 12:57 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50553	From: Bruce Clark	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Book for beginners

That would have been me. Thanks for the info. I was able to get an 2005 edition through a local used book dealer for less than half price. Bruce On 2/19/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: > I think it was a week or two ago someone mentioned the Baensch Atlas as > a good book for beginners. > > Just found a great price on one on ebay. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220741776300&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123 > > This is not my auction, nor anyone I know. > > > -Mike G > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50554	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Aquarium Fire

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/14/north-naples-home-suffers-smoke-damage-cause-aquar/ http://tinyurl.com/4lwl9b2 North Naples home suffers smoke damage cause by aquarium fire. Please read the article and let it serve as a warning to you to check all your equipment on a regular basis, so the same does not happen to you. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50555	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

This recall is not myth. I will have more info about it tomorrow when my husband can get into his work computer, I will post more about it then. He did ask me to please clarify that these are the Marineland Stealth heaters, not the Aqueon Pro which looks a bit like the Stealth heaters. (The Aqueon Pro heaters are quite awesome, I am slowly replacing all of my heaters to those!) Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > On another forum it was stated that the recall has long been an internet > myth. FWIW > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:03 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of > Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters > > > > > > Interesting that I found nothing on the Marineland site about this recall. A > quick search showed a lot of people talking about it in various forums, and > a letter on the PetsMart e-mail site, which is similar to but it did not > have the graphics referenced in this letter, nor the instructions for > removal. > > Do also note this has nothing to do with the Top Fin heaters discussed > earlier this week. This is a Marineland *submersible* heater. > > If you have one that matches the description given, take it to a PetsMart > for a replacement. Apparently no receipt and no box is required, just the > heater. > > The problem appears to be that the water gets too hot or not hot enough, > depending on the post you may be reading. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of Denise Monroe > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 1:30 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of > Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters > > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@... > <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > wrote: > > From: PetSmart <petperks@... > <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > > Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro > Heaters > To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@... <mailto:kprdenise%40yahoo.com> > > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM > > Marineland submersible heater recall > > > If you are having trouble reading this PetSmart® email, please > click here. > > > > February 17, 2011 > > Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, > > PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO > Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received > from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to > a quality issue. > > On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a > single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, > 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel > LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you > have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine > which heater came in your kit. > > If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this > heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to > the store. > > If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image > below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been > withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. > > If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the > following steps: > > 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity > > 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes > > 3. Remove the heater from the tank > > Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or > exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible > to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can > help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. > > If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer > Service at 800-338-4896. > > At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do > everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. > > Sincerely, > > Debbie Gonzalez > Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing > > > > Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages > sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or > contact us through our Customer Service pages. > > PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau > Claire, WI 54701. > > © 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights > reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART > CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of > PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual > property > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50556	From: haecklers	Date: 2/20/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Fire

Well???? What happened to the fish??? I thought it would be about the flammable fire that's happening near where they are fracking for gas. It's a big deal in this area. Here's one vid (you have to watch for about half of it for the water to finally catch fire). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEQMA0zwMM4&NR=1 --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2011/feb/14/north-naples-home-suffers-smoke-damage-cause-aquar/ > http://tinyurl.com/4lwl9b2 > > North Naples home suffers smoke damage cause by aquarium fire. > > Please read the article and let it serve as a warning to you to check all your equipment on a regular basis, so the same does not happen to you. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50557	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

Did the letter appear on the Petsmart web site? That would be http://www.petsmart.com . Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:32 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters Donna, All the stuff I found is recent. A letter from PetsMart can be found at http://petsmart-mail.com/P/v3/Microsite.asp?E=1524;812537;1930616628;25;02&R =T1_ONL&A=1007 (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4u9wm6h ) with a date of February 11, 2011. This site appears to be legitimately registered to PetsMart with an address of PetsMart corporate offices. However, not being able to find a confirmation on the Marineland site does worry me. I would expect to find such, even if the heater lots were exclusively sold to and/or through PetsMart. It may be worth a call to Marineland to get to the bottom of this. \\Steve// AquaticLife-digest@yahoogroups.com AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50558	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

Villandra, You can find a link to the letter In the message you replied to. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of tiggernut24@... Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 8:27 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters Did the letter appear on the Petsmart web site? That would be http://www.petsmart.com . Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 7:32 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters Donna, All the stuff I found is recent. A letter from PetsMart can be found at http://petsmart-mail.com/P/v3/Microsite.asp?E=1524;812537;1930616628;25;02&R =T1_ONL&A=1007 (TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4u9wm6h ) with a date of February 11, 2011. This site appears to be legitimately registered to PetsMart with an address of PetsMart corporate offices. However, not being able to find a confirmation on the Marineland site does worry me. I would expect to find such, even if the heater lots were exclusively sold to and/or through PetsMart. It may be worth a call to Marineland to get to the bottom of this. \\Steve// AquaticLife-digest@yahoogroups.com AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50559	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth

The letter sent out to corporate offices about this recall is the same as the one posted here so I'm not going to repost it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > This recall is not myth. I will have more info about it tomorrow when my husband can get into his work computer, I will post more about it then. He did ask me to please clarify that these are the Marineland Stealth heaters, not the Aqueon Pro which looks a bit like the Stealth heaters. (The Aqueon Pro heaters are quite awesome, I am slowly replacing all of my heaters to those!) > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > On another forum it was stated that the recall has long been an internet > > myth. FWIW > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:03 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of > > Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting that I found nothing on the Marineland site about this recall. A > > quick search showed a lot of people talking about it in various forums, and > > a letter on the PetsMart e-mail site, which is similar to but it did not > > have the graphics referenced in this letter, nor the instructions for > > removal. > > > > Do also note this has nothing to do with the Top Fin heaters discussed > > earlier this week. This is a Marineland *submersible* heater. > > > > If you have one that matches the description given, take it to a PetsMart > > for a replacement. Apparently no receipt and no box is required, just the > > heater. > > > > The problem appears to be that the water gets too hot or not hot enough, > > depending on the post you may be reading. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > > On > > Behalf Of Denise Monroe > > Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 1:30 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Fw: Important Information about Withdrawal of > > Marineland Stealth Pro Heaters > > > > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, PetSmart <petperks@ > > <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > wrote: > > > > From: PetSmart <petperks@ > > <mailto:petperks%40petsmart-mail.com> > > > Subject: Important Information about Withdrawal of Marineland Stealth Pro > > Heaters > > To: "Denise Monroe" <kprdenise@ <mailto:kprdenise%40yahoo.com> > > > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 10:03 AM > > > > Marineland submersible heater recall > > > > > > If you are having trouble reading this PetSmart® email, please > > click here. > > > > > > > > February 17, 2011 > > > > Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, > > > > PetSmart is issuing a voluntary withdrawal of the Marineland Stealth PRO > > Submersible Heater (100, 200 and 250 watt) based on information received > > from the manufacturer of this product. The product is being withdrawn due to > > a quality issue. > > > > On February 16, 2011, we were informed that this heater has been sold as a > > single item and also as part of multiple aquarium kits. Kits include the 20, > > 29, 37 and 55 gallon Top Fin Starter Kits, the 20 and 55 gallon Bio Wheel > > LED Aquarium kits, and the 20 gallon Bio Wheel Floor Aquarium Kit. If you > > have purchased one of the listed kits, please check your tank to determine > > which heater came in your kit. > > > > If your heater is made of glass like the heater in the image below, this > > heater is not affected by the withdrawal and does not need to be returned to > > the store. > > > > If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heater in the image > > below, it is a Stealth PRO Submersible Heater (100 or 200 watt) and has been > > withdrawn. Please follow the below instructions. > > > > If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the > > following steps: > > > > 1. Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity > > > > 2. Let the heater cool for 15 minutes > > > > 3. Remove the heater from the tank > > > > Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or > > exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible > > to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can > > help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. > > > > If you have questions about this withdrawal, please call Marineland Customer > > Service at 800-338-4896. > > > > At PetSmart, we are concerned pet parents, too. We will continue to do > > everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Debbie Gonzalez > > Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing > > > > > > > > Please do not reply to this email as we are not able to respond to messages > > sent to this address. You can find answers to your questions or > > contact us through our Customer Service pages. > > > > PetSmart, Inc., Attn: Customer Service, 1435 International Drive, Eau > > Claire, WI 54701. > > > > © 2011 PetSmart Store Support Group, Inc./PetSmart, Inc. All rights > > reserved. PETSMART & Bouncing Ball Designs, PETSMART.COM, PETSMART > > CHARITIES, PETPERKS, PAWSPECTIVES & Designs are registered trademarks of > > PetSmart. PetSmart disclaims any proprietary interest in intellectual > > property > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50560	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/21/2011
Subject: Re: superworm myth

Hello:    It is not true.  They die within seconds of hitting the stomach acids.  I do believe this urban legend was perpetuated when occasionally (and we're talking very rare occasions) people would see mealworms possibly eating the insides out of a dead lizard not knowing that possibly the lizard had died and any leftover worms may have been feeding off of it's carcass.    I must add that I've heard the stories as well but never have a found a substantiated case of it.     Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 3:59:01 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] superworm myth   Hi guys! I bought superworms from the pet shop yesterday and fed it to my box turtle whole bodied. Then after some research from the net some sites say that SUPERWORMS WILL EAT THEIR WAY OUT OF YOUR PETS INTESTINE IF EATEN ALIVE! Well, on the contrary, many of them say that this is not true and has no basis at all. I would just like to ask the opinion of you guys about this matter. The turtle seems fine though and quite enjoyed the treat I gave him yesterday. thanks! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50561	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry

Hello:    First Bites from Hikari work very well with baby fish.  I have raised many fish with this as part of their diet.  Baby Brine shrimp are another great food and yes, crushed flakes are fine also.  Variety in the diet is important and I think aids in faster growth.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 4:13:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] newborn platy fry   Just got a new batch of platy fry today. Well I'm planning to feed them crushed flake food and egg yolk since B.B.S isn't available here in our locality. Do any of you guys have any other food suggestion for them aside from what I've mentioned? Any other option would be of great help. Thanks and God Bless! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50562	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: newborn platy fry

If mysis shrimp is available that's also a good one, it's normally in frozen cubes at your local fish/pet store. It's high in vitamins and great for all fish, not just fry. Amber On 2/21/2011 8:54 PM, john Lewis wrote: > > Hello: > First Bites from Hikari work very well with baby fish. I have > raised many > fish with this as part of their diet. Baby Brine shrimp are another > great food > and yes, crushed flakes are fine also. Variety in the diet is > important and I > think aids in faster growth. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@... <mailto:giancmpl%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sat, February 19, 2011 4:13:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] newborn platy fry > > > Just got a new batch of platy fry today. Well I'm planning to feed > them crushed > flake food and egg yolk since B.B.S isn't available here in our > locality. Do any > of you guys have any other food suggestion for them aside from what I've > mentioned? Any other option would be of great help. > > Thanks and God Bless! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50563	From: Melani	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes

It is only slightly foggy and it seems as though she MIGHT still be able to see out of it. It might be from a fight like you said because her and her mate were really going at it the other day. Since then they have been fine and no more fighting has occurred except for when they killed off another female. They are a breeding pair but no fry yet. I have had them spawn once or twice but eat the eggs. Would that medicine work for an injury or will it get better on it's own?    THANKS          Melani --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: fish eyes To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 8:59 AM   Hi Melani, Seems as though there is a slight bacterial infection setting into the cornea of this eye. This can easily happen if the fish ran into something (a rock, a plastic plant, or . . . ) during the night in the dark. Or, it could have just as easily happened during a scrap with another fish, or for that matter with another Krib, if you have one -- especially a male, since you said this is a female. For treatment, it would be best if it were isolated to another (hospital) tank. If it's just a mild cloudiness, as I seem to gather from your description, use Acriflavin to treat this type of injury/condition, or A.P.I's liquid Fungus Cure in a red and yellow labeled plastic bottle -- it contains Acriflavin as its main ingredient. If it has gotten more advanced since yesterday, Furan 2 will arrest the infection and clear the eye up. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > My one krib has a foggy right eye. It just appeared yesterday. What is wrong with her eye? She swims around perfectly fine. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50564	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: spawning bushynose plecos

my ancistrus laid eggs for the first time how do care for the fry? do i remove the fry? what to feed them? will other fish eat them? dad is still protecting........ them it has been 2 weeks it is a cocanut breeding cave

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50565	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos

Dad will take care of them until they are ready to leave the cave and search for their own food. When I feed my baby pleco's (and mom and dad) I usually put the food near his cave so the babies can venture out and find it. They won't go very far from dad for the first month or more. They grow VERY slow. You can rehome them when they are over an inch long and foraging for food. Some of the babies might get eaten by other fish if they are adventurous or your cave isn't small enough for dad to keep intruders out, but you'll find that many will survive if they stay with dad. I have a cone shaped cave that seems to work best for my BN pleco's. Amber On 2/22/2011 8:39 AM, Elijah Salazar wrote: > > my ancistrus laid eggs for the first time > how do care for the fry? > do i remove the fry? > what to feed them? > will other fish eat them? > dad is still protecting........ them it has been 2 weeks > it is a cocanut breeding cave > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50566	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos

Oh and I forgot to say that you don't need to feed them anything different from mom/dad. Veggies (blanched) and algae wafers will be just fine. Mine loved their butternut squash, and seedless cucumber. Amber On 2/22/2011 8:39 AM, Elijah Salazar wrote: > > my ancistrus laid eggs for the first time > how do care for the fry? > do i remove the fry? > what to feed them? > will other fish eat them? > dad is still protecting........ them it has been 2 weeks > it is a cocanut breeding cave > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50567	From: reneap7040	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Top Fin heater.

I also got a heater like that.That brand and model. I have used it for a year now,and it is good. But I never has submerced it.The very top sticks out of the water ,so I can regulate the temp. all the time.What Im thinking is that the rubber part of the top maybe not is all waterproff,even though it should be.Therefore the fish get electricity from the heater,maybe? I have heard about it before about othter heaters too,in the past,so just to bee safe,I never stick them all the way in the water,but let a part of the rubbertop stick out of the water. R.B.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50568	From: haecklers	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: spawning bushynose plecos

I had a lovely spawn of bristlenose plecos. Dad did a great job protecting the fry. Then one day they were all gone. I think the angelfish ate them. :( I had moved a few to other tanks. Betta fry also ate them, but the one in with red cherry shrimp survived. The one I put in a mesh refugium also has disappeared - I think the fish sucked it through the mesh. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Elijah Salazar" <elijah258@...> wrote: > > my ancistrus laid eggs for the first time > how do care for the fry? > do i remove the fry? > what to feed them? > will other fish eat them? > dad is still protecting........ them it has been 2 weeks > it is a cocanut breeding cave >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50569	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: guppy fry

today i was looking at my tank and saw a baby guppy i am so happy he is hiding in my fake purple plant i hope he or she makes it in to adult hood both females are still pretty big so i should be expecting more soon. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50570	From: Lisa	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, swim bladder disorder. PH 7.0 Temp is 18*C Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50571	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Belly up is prolly just swim bladder. Mine have done the same in the past. He needs no more goldfish food, only peas. And start the epsom salt treatmrnt of a tablespoon per5 gallons. It helps to slowly raise the water temp a few degrees as well. Do frequent water changes if the tank you moved him to is not fully cycled. And it helps with extreme cases to lower the water level. It helps with righting them. Good luck Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:39 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] HELP!!! goldfish is sick HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, swim bladder disorder. PH 7.0 Temp is 18*C Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50572	From: k chen	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

If your godfish is sitting on bottom of tank is not that bad. Godfish tends to be inactive during colder days which were in CA last couple days. From your temp reading of 18C which is 64.4F - is a bit cold. Dont know if you have been feeding them but feed them small amount of food. I would recommend do more water change, perhaps the filter is way past cleaning. But check nitrite or nitrate levels too. Observe and decide the next course of action. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: lisa_lawless2004@... Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:39 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] HELP!!! goldfish is sick HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, swim bladder disorder. PH 7.0 Temp is 18*C Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50573	From: Bren Linny	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Karl he is not sitting on th bottom he is belly up On Tue Feb 22nd, 2011 6:32 PM EST k chen wrote: > >If your godfish is sitting on bottom of tank is not that bad. Godfish tends to be inactive during colder days which were in CA last couple days. From your temp reading of 18C which is 64.4F - is a bit cold. Dont know if you have been feeding them but feed them small amount of food. I would recommend do more water change, perhaps the filter is way past cleaning. But check nitrite or nitrate levels too. Observe and decide the next course of action. > >Karl > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >From: lisa_lawless2004@... >Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:39 +0000 >Subject: [AquaticLife] HELP!!! goldfish is sick > > > > > > >HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, swim bladder disorder. > >PH 7.0 >Temp is 18*C >Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm > >Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. > >I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. > >What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50574	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

What size tank is the goldfish in? Over feeding them can often cause swim bladder problems as they gulp the flakes/food from the surface of the water they also gulp in air, and if they take in too much air they don't swim properly. Do the scales stick out like a pine cone? Amber On 2/22/2011 1:55 PM, Lisa wrote: > > HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, > swim bladder disorder. > > PH 7.0 > Temp is 18*C > Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water > vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm > > Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. > > I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, > it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. > > What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50575	From: rachell7	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

I'm sorry to ask this but what do you mean by 'only peas'? Thanks, RaChell --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Belly up is prolly just swim bladder. Mine have done the same in the past. He needs no more goldfish food, only peas. And start the epsom salt treatmrnt of a tablespoon per5 gallons. It helps to slowly raise the water temp a few degrees as well. Do frequent water changes if the tank you moved him to is not fully cycled. And it helps with extreme cases to lower the water level. It helps with righting them. Good luck > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:39 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] HELP!!! goldfish is sick > > HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, swim bladder disorder. > > PH 7.0 > Temp is 18*C > Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm > > Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. > > I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. > > What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50576	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/22/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Take some frozen (or fresh if you have them) peas, cook them in the microwave for about long enough to warm them up a little bit (if they're frozen cook them for about a minute, don't forget to cook them in water or they dry up). Just a few peas is plenty for one goldfish. Squish the blanched peas to push out the inside of the pea and discard the "shell". Feed the insides of the peas to your goldfish, this will help him if he's constipated/bloated (which can cause them to swim oddly). Amber On 2/22/2011 7:33 PM, rachell7 wrote: > > I'm sorry to ask this but what do you mean by 'only peas'? > Thanks, RaChell > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > Belly up is prolly just swim bladder. Mine have done the same in the > past. He needs no more goldfish food, only peas. And start the epsom > salt treatmrnt of a tablespoon per5 gallons. It helps to slowly raise > the water temp a few degrees as well. Do frequent water changes if the > tank you moved him to is not fully cycled. And it helps with extreme > cases to lower the water level. It helps with righting them. Good luck > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 22:55:39 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] HELP!!! goldfish is sick > > > > HELP! I think one of my goldfish has Dropsy, or at the very least, > swim bladder disorder. > > > > PH 7.0 > > Temp is 18*C > > Haven't checked the nitrites or niterates. But I did a recent water > vac and change, so should be at 0.0ppm > > > > Water's not cloudy, and the other fish seem happy. > > > > I isolated the poor fish last night, and when I checked this > morning, it was still alive, but belly up on the bottom of the tank. > > > > What should I do? Euthanas? Or try and medicate? > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50577	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

According to your descriptions, the fish for sure won't live long anymore. Just make sure that after it died, you quickly sterilize the tank to prevent any infections with the next fish that you might probably quarantine. You could do this by running a UV light over the tank or by washing it with hot water. If you really think that the fish's ailment is dropsy, then there are lesser chances for it to recover. Also try to look in to a disease called septicemia which might be the first stage of this disease.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50578	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer them to the main tank. wish you good and, God bless!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50579	From: haecklers	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

Not all guppies eat their fry - mine didn't. Since they'll keep having babies every 3 - 4 weeks, it won't hurt to leave them in the tank and see if they get eaten or not (if it's just guppies in there). So you could just keep an eye on things. I always just fed my fry crumbled flake food. If your tank is on the messy side with some moss and algae they should be able to supplement their diets with diatoms and rotifers and do ok. It may depend on whether you have really fancy show guppies or regular pet store guppies. Some show guppies were only bred for tails and colors and don't have the same instincts (to not eat their own young) as regular ones. Besides, there's a reason guppies were called "millions fish" - once a few females start popping out 50 or more every month you'll be overrun with guppies and run out of space for them all. No pet stores around here pay for them, tho they will accept them for free. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. > > *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. > > Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer them to the main tank. > > wish you good and, > God bless! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50580	From: Lisa Lawless	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: re; HELP! my goldfish is sick

Well he’s a tiny fish in a big tank, lets put it that way. And 2 days after I isolated him he’s still hanging in there. The local aquarium, gave me some medicated pellets that resemble betta food. And to a daily water change. But currently he’s in a 2 liter tub which is only half filled with water. I have to go to the airport tonight, so I can’t check my niterites and niterates.   Scuse me for saying this guys, but I’ve just had the week from hell. Nothing is going right for me the last 3 days. And now I have my mum breathing down my neck about arrangements for tonight. Well I’m sorry, but my head hasn’t exactly been in that space yet. So I’ll keep my fingers crossed and hope that he makes it   Lisa   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50581	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

No, don't start out by sterilizing the tank. This will destroy the beneficial bacteria that process nitrogen waste, and poison the fish who are living there. I would seriously start by testing the nitrogen waste levels. This may or may not be what is wrong, but this often contributes to fish disease. It's very easy to overcrowd a goldfish tank. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 6:52 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick According to your descriptions, the fish for sure won't live long anymore. Just make sure that after it died, you quickly sterilize the tank to prevent any infections with the next fish that you might probably quarantine. You could do this by running a UV light over the tank or by washing it with hot water. If you really think that the fish's ailment is dropsy, then there are lesser chances for it to recover. Also try to look in to a disease called septicemia which might be the first stage of this disease. ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50582	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/23/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Gian, That may not be the case. If the fish is still eating, getting the peas alr4eady mentioned and other green food into the fish may resolve the problem in a week or so. If the fish is not eating, then maybe it will die. It is like if you had a swollen abdomen and gas pains. You may feel like you are going to die, but in a day or so, the gas will be released and though it may smell like you died, you will be OK. It may be similar to what the fish is going through right now. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gian Carlo Miguel Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 7:53 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick According to your descriptions, the fish for sure won't live long anymore. Just make sure that after it died, you quickly sterilize the tank to prevent any infections with the next fish that you might probably quarantine. You could do this by running a UV light over the tank or by washing it with hot water. If you really think that the fish's ailment is dropsy, then there are lesser chances for it to recover. Also try to look in to a disease called septicemia which might be the first stage of this disease.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50583	From: Ray	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes

Melani, I regret not being able to address your question yesterday, having been pre-occupied with other matters including a car accident, but I did tell you several days ago to treat this injury with Acriflavin (or A.P.I.'s Fungus Cure) if it was just a mild injury -- or with Furan 2 if the injury was more advanced. This recommendation hasn't changed. I don't understand why you would think this may get better on its own, or why you'd even want to take the risk that it might, even though that chance may still be possible if you want to take the risk. Once such an eye injury occurs, the damaged tissue opens the door for bacteria to invade, just as if you would get an abrasion in your own eye. If your eye started to cloud, would you just leave it alone to see if it clears of it's own accord or would you seek out a doctor? The object with a eye injury to a fish is that you want to clear it up ASAP, which necessitates the use of a medicine. You don't want to leave it to chance, and then have the injury get worse, as once this tissue is damaged -- even if other medications are used at that time which the finally eliminate the advanced infection -- the degree of tissue scarring will be the degree of the eye's ability to see. More often than not, depending on how soon an advanced infection is arrested (which may be later rather than sooner), the damage to the eye -- even though cleared of infection as of this later date -- may render the healed eye permanently damaged and/or blind. This is why its imperitive to treat even a clouded eye immediately with a medication to ensure that any possible infection is cleared. To not do so is to risk the fish's eyesight in the injured eye. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Melani <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > It is only slightly foggy and it seems as though she MIGHT still be able to see out of it. It might be from a fight like you said because her and her mate were really going at it the other day. Since then they have been fine and no more fighting has occurred except for when they killed off another female. They are a breeding pair but no fry yet. I have had them spawn once or twice but eat the eggs. Would that medicine work for an injury or will it get better on it's own? >    THANKS >          Melani > > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: fish eyes > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 8:59 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Hi Melani, > > > > Seems as though there is a slight bacterial infection setting into the cornea of this eye. This can easily happen if the fish ran into something (a rock, a plastic plant, or . . . ) during the night in the dark. Or, it could have just as easily happened during a scrap with another fish, or for that matter with another Krib, if you have one -- especially a male, since you said this is a female. > > > > For treatment, it would be best if it were isolated to another (hospital) tank. If it's just a mild cloudiness, as I seem to gather from your description, use Acriflavin to treat this type of injury/condition, or A.P.I's liquid Fungus Cure in a red and yellow labeled plastic bottle -- it contains Acriflavin as its main ingredient. If it has gotten more advanced since yesterday, Furan 2 will arrest the infection and clear the eye up. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@> wrote: > > > > > > My one krib has a foggy right eye. It just appeared yesterday. What is wrong with her eye? She swims around perfectly fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50584	From: Melani	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: fish eyes

ok thanks   melani --- On Thu, 2/24/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: fish eyes To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 1:42 AM   Melani, I regret not being able to address your question yesterday, having been pre-occupied with other matters including a car accident, but I did tell you several days ago to treat this injury with Acriflavin (or A.P.I.'s Fungus Cure) if it was just a mild injury -- or with Furan 2 if the injury was more advanced. This recommendation hasn't changed. I don't understand why you would think this may get better on its own, or why you'd even want to take the risk that it might, even though that chance may still be possible if you want to take the risk. Once such an eye injury occurs, the damaged tissue opens the door for bacteria to invade, just as if you would get an abrasion in your own eye. If your eye started to cloud, would you just leave it alone to see if it clears of it's own accord or would you seek out a doctor? The object with a eye injury to a fish is that you want to clear it up ASAP, which necessitates the use of a medicine. You don't want to leave it to chance, and then have the injury get worse, as once this tissue is damaged -- even if other medications are used at that time which the finally eliminate the advanced infection -- the degree of tissue scarring will be the degree of the eye's ability to see. More often than not, depending on how soon an advanced infection is arrested (which may be later rather than sooner), the damage to the eye -- even though cleared of infection as of this later date -- may render the healed eye permanently damaged and/or blind. This is why its imperitive to treat even a clouded eye immediately with a medication to ensure that any possible infection is cleared. To not do so is to risk the fish's eyesight in the injured eye. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Melani <mlronkovitz@...> wrote: > > It is only slightly foggy and it seems as though she MIGHT still be able to see out of it. It might be from a fight like you said because her and her mate were really going at it the other day. Since then they have been fine and no more fighting has occurred except for when they killed off another female. They are a breeding pair but no fry yet. I have had them spawn once or twice but eat the eggs. Would that medicine work for an injury or will it get better on it's own? >    THANKS >          Melani > > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: fish eyes > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 8:59 AM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > Hi Melani, > > > > Seems as though there is a slight bacterial infection setting into the cornea of this eye. This can easily happen if the fish ran into something (a rock, a plastic plant, or . . . ) during the night in the dark. Or, it could have just as easily happened during a scrap with another fish, or for that matter with another Krib, if you have one -- especially a male, since you said this is a female. > > > > For treatment, it would be best if it were isolated to another (hospital) tank. If it's just a mild cloudiness, as I seem to gather from your description, use Acriflavin to treat this type of injury/condition, or A.P.I's liquid Fungus Cure in a red and yellow labeled plastic bottle -- it contains Acriflavin as its main ingredient. If it has gotten more advanced since yesterday, Furan 2 will arrest the infection and clear the eye up. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Melani" <mlronkovitz@> wrote: > > > > > > My one krib has a foggy right eye. It just appeared yesterday. What is wrong with her eye? She swims around perfectly fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50585	From: Nicole	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Off Topic: Please Help w/ My Project (Only Takes Minutes)

Hey Everyone, I would really like your assistance with something. As some of you know, a dear friend of mine is in a competition to try to get her book published, and the first round of the competition involves getting votes. Round one ends in days, Monday, Feb. 28th, and the top 10% of vote getters move on to round two. Some authors who have their own radio shows appear to be getting a lot of votes, because of the radio shows. They appear to be racking up hundreds of votes a day. So, I'm trying to create a grass roots effort for my friend's book to help even the playing field. I don't have a show to rally people with...I'm the mom of a daughter with Autism, who wants to take a shot at helping a friend. My friend, Corbie Mitleid, has been really supportive of me and my family during very challenging times, so I want to do what I can to help, but I need your help to do it. Other than she's my friend, the book looks really cool too! The book is titled, "God Does Laundry and Walks the Dog: A Year of Finding Out Just How Much You Already Know!" All it takes is typing in your name, an email address, and any password that you want to use, then vote...the whole thing takes about 2 minutes. If you use the email address that appears after you vote, to let Corbie know you voted, and she'll send you excerpts from the book for your effort! Here's the URL to vote: http://www.nexttopauthor.com/profile.cfm?aid=41 If you would share this with others (via email, Facebook, Twitter, etc.), that would be fantastic! I know that I'm going off topic here...I specifically spelled out "Off Topic" in the subject line to give you the choice of reading this or not...You decided to read it so you must have a helpful spirit. I'm hoping that you find it in your hearts to be patient with me, since I believe that true friendship goes beyond group topics. Please take a moment to vote for my friend's book (& share this if possible)...you'll not only be helping Corbie and me, but countless others who may be helped by her insights on life. Thank you so much for your time and understanding!!! Peace be with you!---Nicole

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50586	From: Lisa	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

I havn't tried the pea yet, cause it's not eating the medicated pellets that were given to me. But when i isolated it into the tub, i used half the established aquarium's water to retain benificial bacteria. and do a half water change daily as was advised. It seems it still wants to live, it's just not swimming right. It was already fat when i got it months ago. So i haven't noticed a change in body mass. the only thing that has changed is it's colour. it WAS a black moor. But now it's just an orange fish with black eyes and spots on it's fins. NOT FIN ROT, just colour. Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50587	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Goldfish will usually eat peas even when they aren't eating food. Did youi try the epsom salt yet? What do you mean by he doesn't swim right? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:13:42 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick I havn't tried the pea yet, cause it's not eating the medicated pellets that were given to me. But when i isolated it into the tub, i used half the established aquarium's water to retain benificial bacteria. and do a half water change daily as was advised. It seems it still wants to live, it's just not swimming right. It was already fat when i got it months ago. So i haven't noticed a change in body mass. the only thing that has changed is it's colour. it WAS a black moor. But now it's just an orange fish with black eyes and spots on it's fins. NOT FIN ROT, just colour. Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50588	From: k chen	Date: 2/24/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

Try to raise the temperature to around 70F. Feed the goldfish is he wants to eat, if not then dont feed it as will pollute the water, last thig n you want to do. The color change is normal process as goldfish matures. Wish godfish full recovery Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: safirezprincess@... Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 06:17:58 +0000 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick Goldfish will usually eat peas even when they aren't eating food. Did youi try the epsom salt yet? What do you mean by he doesn't swim right? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 04:13:42 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick I havn't tried the pea yet, cause it's not eating the medicated pellets that were given to me. But when i isolated it into the tub, i used half the established aquarium's water to retain benificial bacteria. and do a half water change daily as was advised. It seems it still wants to live, it's just not swimming right. It was already fat when i got it months ago. So i haven't noticed a change in body mass. the only thing that has changed is it's colour. it WAS a black moor. But now it's just an orange fish with black eyes and spots on it's fins. NOT FIN ROT, just colour. Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50589	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

i also have balloon bellied mollies in there on Sunday i am going to get a thing that goes in the tank and you put the baby fish in i can't remember what it's called. one more thing would a cory cat eat the fry or are the strictly vegetarian? ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 12:51:42 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry Not all guppies eat their fry - mine didn't. Since they'll keep having babies every 3 - 4 weeks, it won't hurt to leave them in the tank and see if they get eaten or not (if it's just guppies in there). So you could just keep an eye on things. I always just fed my fry crumbled flake food. If your tank is on the messy side with some moss and algae they should be able to supplement their diets with diatoms and rotifers and do ok. It may depend on whether you have really fancy show guppies or regular pet store guppies. Some show guppies were only bred for tails and colors and don't have the same instincts (to not eat their own young) as regular ones. Besides, there's a reason guppies were called "millions fish" - once a few females start popping out 50 or more every month you'll be overrun with guppies and run out of space for them all. No pet stores around here pay for them, tho they will accept them for free. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> wrote: > > > If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its >belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box >like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger >gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost >about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down >swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. > > > *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your >fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to >ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it >to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from >eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses >her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. > > > Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched >brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute >it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in >good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer >them to the main tank. > > wish you good and, > God bless! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50590	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

thanks but both are pregnant and near labor ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 8:38:33 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer them to the main tank. wish you good and, God bless! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50591	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: HELP!!! goldfish is sick

The color change could be from illness. A lot of the medicated foods are unpalatable, and fish commonly refuse them. Try the pea, but I do think it's more than just constipation or it should have gone away by now. I'd try a broad-spectrum antibiotic. Even if it started out another issue if it has been poorly all this time then its immune system is out of whack by now and it's unable to fight off the regular pathogens that live in the water. Bacterial infections are often secondary to other problems but are what finishes off the fish. You can also try soaking some of its regular food (that it likes) in a solution of 1 tablespoon epsom salt to 2 cups of clean water. That gets the epsom salt inside the fish where it acts like a laxative. That treatment 3X a day for 3 days is supposed to help them pass a large variety of intestinal worms. You soak a few pellets of food in a teaspoon or so of the Epsom water for about 3 min. - until the food starts to get soft, then feed it to the fish. Epsom salt is cheap, you can often find it in the dollar store where they sell the vitamins and bath stuff. It could be, tho, that your fish came with worms that are in its liver and organs and there is just nothing you can do. Fish that are bred and raised in outdoor ponds can pick up a lot of different parasites. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > I havn't tried the pea yet, cause it's not eating the medicated pellets that were given to me. > But when i isolated it into the tub, i used half the established aquarium's water to retain benificial bacteria. > and do a half water change daily as was advised. > > It seems it still wants to live, it's just not swimming right. > It was already fat when i got it months ago. So i haven't noticed a change in body mass. > > the only thing that has changed is it's colour. > it WAS a black moor. But now it's just an orange fish with black eyes and spots on it's fins. NOT FIN ROT, just colour. > > Lisa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50592	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!

I got some plants from a fellow fish nut in a trade and later started spotting these round, shiny, spotty snails in my tank. I've ID'd them as leopard snails, a kind of ramshorn (but different body shape than my other ramshorns - more rounded, and different behavior - they half-bury themselves in the substrate and keep a really low profile). These are, I think, the cutest snails I've ever seen. The brown part of the shells seems to absorb and reflect light like a good mahogany, the spotting pattern is random and interesting, and the shells are really shiny and smooth. When young they look like shiny, spotty round blobs. They keep their heads in the shells mostly as they move and eat, making them safer from snail-eating fish than the ones that are more "out". They don't seem to be eating plants. But here's the *best* part - You know that green algae that grows on the walls of the tank and is really hard to scrub off and the bristlenose plecos leave behind? These snails EAT IT! They are making large clean areas on my tank walls that none of the other "algae eating" fish or snails have even made a dent in! They're even better than the nerites! There is a slight possibility they are a cross of the nerite and ramshorns I have in that tank - I haven't heard back from Bob yet whether he has this kind of snail, but I don't think those two kinds really cross-breed.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50593	From: Melani	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

ok Just a warning I have had all my babies eaten by crazed fish waiting just beyond the bars. Good luck! --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:30 AM   thanks but both are pregnant and near labor ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 8:38:33 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer them to the main tank. wish you good and, God bless! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50594	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!

Do they have a "trap door"? If so it's quite likely that what you have are some type of Apple Snail. Check out www.applesnail.net and look through the pictures to see if it's one of them. Some apple snails get very big and love to eat plants. Amber On 2/25/2011 5:34 AM, haecklers wrote: > > I got some plants from a fellow fish nut in a trade and later started > spotting these round, shiny, spotty snails in my tank. I've ID'd them > as leopard snails, a kind of ramshorn (but different body shape than > my other ramshorns - more rounded, and different behavior - they > half-bury themselves in the substrate and keep a really low profile). > > These are, I think, the cutest snails I've ever seen. The brown part > of the shells seems to absorb and reflect light like a good mahogany, > the spotting pattern is random and interesting, and the shells are > really shiny and smooth. When young they look like shiny, spotty round > blobs. > > They keep their heads in the shells mostly as they move and eat, > making them safer from snail-eating fish than the ones that are more > "out". > > They don't seem to be eating plants. > > But here's the *best* part - You know that green algae that grows on > the walls of the tank and is really hard to scrub off and the > bristlenose plecos leave behind? These snails EAT IT! They are making > large clean areas on my tank walls that none of the other "algae > eating" fish or snails have even made a dent in! They're even better > than the nerites! > > There is a slight possibility they are a cross of the nerite and > ramshorns I have in that tank - I haven't heard back from Bob yet > whether he has this kind of snail, but I don't think those two kinds > really cross-breed. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50595	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: guppy fry

um thanks i think ________________________________ From: Melani <mlronkovitz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 10:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry ok Just a warning I have had all my babies eaten by crazed fish waiting just beyond the bars. Good luck! --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 4:30 AM Â thanks but both are pregnant and near labor ________________________________ From: Gian Carlo Miguel <giancmpl@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 8:38:33 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: guppy fry If you think your female guppies are already pregnant, occasionally monitor its belly to look if its already near labor. You could easily tell this by the box like shape of the fish's belly. You will also notice a blacker and more larger gravid spot. Some swimming patterns may also change when your guppy is almost about to release their live young. This is usually indicated by a up and down swimming pattern at the glass corners of your aquarium. *If most of these characteristics or behavior are already exhibited by your fish, then I really advise you to separate the female in a separate tank to ensure the safety of the fry. After the female gave birth, immediately bring it to a holding tank to allow her to rest. This also prevents the mother from eating her youngsters since, usually after giving birth a female guppy looses her parental instinct resulting her to cannibalize her fry. Keep the fry in a well cleaned tank and feed them live foods like newly hatched brine shrimp. If these types of foods are unavailable in your place substitute it with some egg yolk (yellow part)or finely crushed flake food. Keep them in good conditions until they mature. When this time comes, you could now transfer them to the main tank. wish you good and, God bless! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50596	From: haecklers	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!

No, they look just like the ones in this link: http://www.its-a-fishy-buziness.co.uk/tropical-snails/leopard-ramshorn-snail --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Do they have a "trap door"? If so it's quite likely that what you have > are some type of Apple Snail. Check out www.applesnail.net and look > through the pictures to see if it's one of them. > Some apple snails get very big and love to eat plants. > > Amber > > On 2/25/2011 5:34 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > I got some plants from a fellow fish nut in a trade and later started > > spotting these round, shiny, spotty snails in my tank. I've ID'd them > > as leopard snails, a kind of ramshorn (but different body shape than > > my other ramshorns - more rounded, and different behavior - they > > half-bury themselves in the substrate and keep a really low profile). > > > > These are, I think, the cutest snails I've ever seen. The brown part > > of the shells seems to absorb and reflect light like a good mahogany, > > the spotting pattern is random and interesting, and the shells are > > really shiny and smooth. When young they look like shiny, spotty round > > blobs. > > > > They keep their heads in the shells mostly as they move and eat, > > making them safer from snail-eating fish than the ones that are more > > "out". > > > > They don't seem to be eating plants. > > > > But here's the *best* part - You know that green algae that grows on > > the walls of the tank and is really hard to scrub off and the > > bristlenose plecos leave behind? These snails EAT IT! They are making > > large clean areas on my tank walls that none of the other "algae > > eating" fish or snails have even made a dent in! They're even better > > than the nerites! > > > > There is a slight possibility they are a cross of the nerite and > > ramshorns I have in that tank - I haven't heard back from Bob yet > > whether he has this kind of snail, but I don't think those two kinds > > really cross-breed. > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50598	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 2/25/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!

They also look just like a snail listed on the applesnail.net site, but it's not an apple snail it's one of the "other snails" they have listed as*Lymnea (radix) auricularia.*/ /*Amber*/ / On 2/25/2011 12:20 PM, haecklers wrote: > > No, they look just like the ones in this link: > http://www.its-a-fishy-buziness.co.uk/tropical-snails/leopard-ramshorn-snail > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Do they have a "trap door"? If so it's quite likely that what you have > > are some type of Apple Snail. Check out www.applesnail.net and look > > through the pictures to see if it's one of them. > > Some apple snails get very big and love to eat plants. > > > > Amber > > > > On 2/25/2011 5:34 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > I got some plants from a fellow fish nut in a trade and later started > > > spotting these round, shiny, spotty snails in my tank. I've ID'd them > > > as leopard snails, a kind of ramshorn (but different body shape than > > > my other ramshorns - more rounded, and different behavior - they > > > half-bury themselves in the substrate and keep a really low profile). > > > > > > These are, I think, the cutest snails I've ever seen. The brown part > > > of the shells seems to absorb and reflect light like a good mahogany, > > > the spotting pattern is random and interesting, and the shells are > > > really shiny and smooth. When young they look like shiny, spotty > round > > > blobs. > > > > > > They keep their heads in the shells mostly as they move and eat, > > > making them safer from snail-eating fish than the ones that are more > > > "out". > > > > > > They don't seem to be eating plants. > > > > > > But here's the *best* part - You know that green algae that grows on > > > the walls of the tank and is really hard to scrub off and the > > > bristlenose plecos leave behind? These snails EAT IT! They are making > > > large clean areas on my tank walls that none of the other "algae > > > eating" fish or snails have even made a dent in! They're even better > > > than the nerites! > > > > > > There is a slight possibility they are a cross of the nerite and > > > ramshorns I have in that tank - I haven't heard back from Bob yet > > > whether he has this kind of snail, but I don't think those two kinds > > > really cross-breed. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50599	From: haecklers	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Leopard Snails Are Awesome!!!!

No, they don't have the pointy thing on the shells and they don't flare at the opening. They really look almost exactly like the photo I linked of the Leopard Ramshorn Snails. I'm just not sure where they came from - the other ramshorns I have started with two bright orange ones we found as tiny babies in a betta bowl. We saved them because they were neat (never had ramshorns before that). Evidently some of their babies were the normal (dark brown) color, which I've noticed have thicker (wider?) shells than the more narrow orange ones. I moved some of them to different tanks as part of the clean-up crew. In only one tank with the brown ramshorns and a nerite, I've been spotting these new ones. I got some plants from my friend like I said and they could be from the plants. I've been spreading the leopard ones around now since they're so great at eating algae. One description I read of the Leopard ramshorn (which may be the European Ramshorn) said they scatter their eggs in small clusters on the undersides of plant leaves, so if they were in a planted tank then they probably did ride in on plant leaves. Evidently they can also store sperm like guppies because it said if you get a single one that is of mating age, even with just one you're likely to get babies, but they do need to mate to reproduce (can't clone themselves). My other ramshorns will sometimes stick out their heads and antennae pretty far from the shells, these leopard ones have different behavior, more like the nerites - they keep the head tucked inside the edge of the shell so it barely shows. No trapdoor. It's easiest to find them by looking at the base of plants, they are often in the substrate with the top of the shell poking out right where the plant comes out of the substrate. I often see them half-buried in the sand substrate, tho I don't think they bury themselves completely. My other ramshorns never bury themselves at all. Since I first knew they were there when they were 1/4" across, I think they may have buried themselves when they were smaller, tho. I first noticed just one then a few days later was able to count close to 20 of them. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > They also look just like a snail listed on the applesnail.net site, but > it's not an apple snail it's one of the "other snails" they have listed > as*Lymnea (radix) auricularia.*/ > > /*Amber*/ > / > On 2/25/2011 12:20 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > No, they look just like the ones in this link: > > http://www.its-a-fishy-buziness.co.uk/tropical-snails/leopard-ramshorn-snail > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Do they have a "trap door"? If so it's quite likely that what you have > > > are some type of Apple Snail. Check out www.applesnail.net and look > > > through the pictures to see if it's one of them. > > > Some apple snails get very big and love to eat plants. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 2/25/2011 5:34 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > > > I got some plants from a fellow fish nut in a trade and later started > > > > spotting these round, shiny, spotty snails in my tank. I've ID'd them > > > > as leopard snails, a kind of ramshorn (but different body shape than > > > > my other ramshorns - more rounded, and different behavior - they > > > > half-bury themselves in the substrate and keep a really low profile). > > > > > > > > These are, I think, the cutest snails I've ever seen. The brown part > > > > of the shells seems to absorb and reflect light like a good mahogany, > > > > the spotting pattern is random and interesting, and the shells are > > > > really shiny and smooth. When young they look like shiny, spotty > > round > > > > blobs. > > > > > > > > They keep their heads in the shells mostly as they move and eat, > > > > making them safer from snail-eating fish than the ones that are more > > > > "out". > > > > > > > > They don't seem to be eating plants. > > > > > > > > But here's the *best* part - You know that green algae that grows on > > > > the walls of the tank and is really hard to scrub off and the > > > > bristlenose plecos leave behind? These snails EAT IT! They are making > > > > large clean areas on my tank walls that none of the other "algae > > > > eating" fish or snails have even made a dent in! They're even better > > > > than the nerites! > > > > > > > > There is a slight possibility they are a cross of the nerite and > > > > ramshorns I have in that tank - I haven't heard back from Bob yet > > > > whether he has this kind of snail, but I don't think those two kinds > > > > really cross-breed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50600	From: safirezprincess	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: tropical fish & their food

I have always fed my fancy guppys crushed koi pellets. Someone just brought it to my attention that tropical fish should only eat tropical fish food. Are my guppys being harmed by the koi food? They have always been active, long lived, breed like rabbits and have huge litters. The guppies are actually breeding stock so my african dwarf frogs have a constant source of fry. But I don't want to harm them. Please advise. Thank you. Ps would the owner/ moderator also please contact me about another matter at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com Bren

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50601	From: haecklers	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Gourami fry!!

My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50602	From: Melani	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!

Congradulations on the new fry! They might be able to eat bbs. you could try. I havent bred them but i hope this helps. --- On Sat, 2/26/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:32 AM   My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50603	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!

try micro worms my fry love them since they are smaller also try banana worms or walterworm you can get them off ebay ________________________________ From: Melani <mlronkovitz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 2:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! Congradulations on the new fry! They might be able to eat bbs. you could try. I havent bred them but i hope this helps. --- On Sat, 2/26/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:32 AM Â My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50604	From: harry perry	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!/Try this

I have been successful at raising fry. The last time I bred Gouramis I had 75 survive. They are born with a yolk sac that feeds them for approx. 24 to 48 hours after that they need practically microscopic food. I used liquid fry food for about 2 weeks and then BBS. BBS is too big for newborn fry. I fed liquid fry food about 4 times a day. Just drops in different parts of the school. Harry --- On Sat, 2/26/11, Elijah Salazar <elijah258@...> wrote: From: Elijah Salazar <elijah258@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 8:54 PM   try micro worms my fry love them since they are smaller also try banana worms or walterworm you can get them off ebay ________________________________ From: Melani <mlronkovitz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 2:39:10 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! Congradulations on the new fry! They might be able to eat bbs. you could try. I havent bred them but i hope this helps. --- On Sat, 2/26/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Gourami fry!! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, February 26, 2011, 11:32 AM Â My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50605	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food

I'd give them variety. If you give them variety, crushed koi food won't hurt them once in a while. It may matter partly how the diet of koi compares with that of the tropical fish you have. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "safirezprincess" <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 1:04 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] tropical fish & their food I have always fed my fancy guppys crushed koi pellets. Someone just brought it to my attention that tropical fish should only eat tropical fish food. Are my guppys being harmed by the koi food? They have always been active, long lived, breed like rabbits and have huge litters. The guppies are actually breeding stock so my african dwarf frogs have a constant source of fry. But I don't want to harm them. Please advise. Thank you. Ps would the owner/ moderator also please contact me about another matter at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com Bren ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50606	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/26/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food

You really should be feeding your fish a varied diet. If you wish to use the koi food as a staple, you should ensure that it is properly balanced for your fish, so far as the protein, fat, and such. Too much of any one nutrient is actually bad for the fish over a long period of time. You could stick with prepared foods, but all fish love live foods, at least as a treat. Your guppies are top feeders, shown by the way their mouths open upwards. Any food you feed should remain near the top of the water column for some time before sinking. Food that does sink will need to be cleaned out, unless you have other fish in the tank that are mid-water and/or bottom feeders. You seem to indicate that you are breeding the guppies with a purpose in mind. Are you a member of the IFGA? If you are really serious about guppies, you may wish to look them up. Their web site is at www.ifga.org. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of safirezprincess Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 2:05 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] tropical fish & their food I have always fed my fancy guppys crushed koi pellets. Someone just brought it to my attention that tropical fish should only eat tropical fish food. Are my guppys being harmed by the koi food? They have always been active, long lived, breed like rabbits and have huge litters. The guppies are actually breeding stock so my african dwarf frogs have a constant source of fry. But I don't want to harm them. Please advise. Thank you. Ps would the owner/ moderator also please contact me about another matter at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com Bren

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50607	From: mirenlopez68	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Hello to everyone out there!

Hi, As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. Miren :-) By the way, good morning!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50608	From: john Lewis	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

Hello:    Or maybe not long enough.  In this group you can talk away about your fish and what they're doing.  Don't let length stop you from telling all you want to say.    Anyway, welcome to the group.  If it's info you want you came to the right place.  There is lots of fish knowledge here and everybody is more than willing to share what they know.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: mirenlopez68 <miren@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 3:19:06 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there!   Hi, As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. Miren :-) By the way, good morning!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50609	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

Good morning and welcome Miren. Your tanks souind very interesting. Your black molly is hilarious. I've never heard of a fish who was choosy about which colors he would mate with lol. That's got to be unique, right everybody? What colors will he mate with? Well you have found a friendly and informative group so I'm sure you will enjou it. Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "mirenlopez68" <miren@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:19:06 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! Hi, As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. Miren :-) By the way, good morning!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50610	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food

Thank you Villandra. I suddenly became so concerned for them. I feel better now. I did go out and get a very healty tropical fish fooD for them today. They love it :) Bten Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: <tiggernut24@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:30:34 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] tropical fish & their food I'd give them variety. If you give them variety, crushed koi food won't hurt them once in a while. It may matter partly how the diet of koi compares with that of the tropical fish you have. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "safirezprincess" <safirezprincess@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 1:04 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] tropical fish & their food I have always fed my fancy guppys crushed koi pellets. Someone just brought it to my attention that tropical fish should only eat tropical fish food. Are my guppys being harmed by the koi food? They have always been active, long lived, breed like rabbits and have huge litters. The guppies are actually breeding stock so my african dwarf frogs have a constant source of fry. But I don't want to harm them. Please advise. Thank you. Ps would the owner/ moderator also please contact me about another matter at safirezprincess@yahoo. Com Bren ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50611	From: Miren	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

Hi and thanks for the welcome, Do you think my molly is hilarious, well let me tell you that I had two more black females and the silly fish would only go for them. At the moment I only have one more small red male, and he is in paradise, as the rest are all females. I bet someone would be pleased to be in his position! Could it be that he needs some encouragement? Any suggestions would be accepted!!! Miren :-) On 27 Feb 2011, at 08:44, safirezprincess@... wrote: > Good morning and welcome Miren. Your tanks souind very interesting. Your black molly is hilarious. I've never heard of a fish who was choosy about which colors he would mate with lol. That's got to be unique, right everybody? What colors will he mate with? > Well you have found a friendly and informative group so I'm sure you will enjou it. > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "mirenlopez68" <miren@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:19:06 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! > > Hi, > As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: > I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). > The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. > All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. > Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. > > Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. > > Miren :-) > By the way, good morning!!! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50612	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

I bet that fish is in paradise! Lol I don't know how to encourage the fish to be less choosy. Some people have a "type" so maybe that's what he is doing! Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Miren <miren@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:24:11 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com<AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! Hi and thanks for the welcome, Do you think my molly is hilarious, well let me tell you that I had two more black females and the silly fish would only go for them. At the moment I only have one more small red male, and he is in paradise, as the rest are all females. I bet someone would be pleased to be in his position! Could it be that he needs some encouragement? Any suggestions would be accepted!!! Miren :-) On 27 Feb 2011, at 08:44, safirezprincess@... wrote: > Good morning and welcome Miren. Your tanks souind very interesting. Your black molly is hilarious. I've never heard of a fish who was choosy about which colors he would mate with lol. That's got to be unique, right everybody? What colors will he mate with? > Well you have found a friendly and informative group so I'm sure you will enjou it. > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "mirenlopez68" <miren@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:19:06 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! > > Hi, > As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: > I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). > The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. > All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. > Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. > > Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. > > Miren :-) > By the way, good morning!!! > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50613	From: Ray	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!

R, Like other fish species having a protective instinct of their young, your male Pearl Gourami will defend them (as you are noticing) from predators, but unlike other more advanced species (such as Cichlids), this instinct is not as long long-lived. Your Pearl Gourami male will soon lose interest in guarding his fry -- and may already have done so by now -- in which case your other fish will find the remaining ones to be a delightful snack. There's the possibility too, that when the male Gourami does lose interest, that he too will feast on any fry he can find that are near him. If you want to raise any of them, I'd advise removing these fry to another tank of their own ASAP, which I see you've done with about 20 of them. If any survive for a short period of time in their present tank, it won't be for long as they'll be sought after until they're large enough to fend for themselves without the chance of being eaten -- and they'll never get a chance to reach such a minimum size. Yes, Anabantoid fry are tiny slivers of fish -- about 1/10th the size of guppy fry. At this stage, as they first start free-swimming (after they've absorbed their egg sack), they'll need infusoria and/or rotifers to flourish. Some larger and stronger fry MAY be able to handle the smallest newly hatched brine shrimp (or tear a few pieces off of them) and will get a strong start, but the majority of them will not be able to handle whole BBS (baby brine shrimp) for about 7 to 10 days yet. You can speed this up by getting a brand of San Francisco Bay brine shrimp, which is smaller when first hatched, than the more universally used Great Salt Lake/Utah BBS. Still you're going to need smaller foods up until this time. Walter worms (a variety of micro-worms, about 3/4 of the normal size) will help towards this end in several days, but not immediately. You may try locating and culturing vinegar eels, a smaller food yet, which they should handle soon. Incidentally, there's a culture of regular microworms up on AquaBid right now, ending sometime this afternoon. You mention having good egg yolk available for them, and I'm fairly sure you must know though, that it can easily foul the tank when overfed -- but it is a good food for them if used correctly. A good substitute for the infusoria these fry now need is to use the yolk of a 20-minute had boiled egg. It should be squeezed through a men's muslin handkerchief and a bit about the size of a pea shaken up in a 4 ounce bottle of water. A few drop of this mixture should be taken up with an eye dropper and fed to the fry several times a day (at least three times a day, but up to five times will be the most beneficial). Be sure to always mix a fresh batch of this infusion each day and don't try feeding them egg yolk in water that may have developed any chance on bacteria. Another first-food you could feed them would to be to offer them APR (Artificial Plankton & Rotifers). It's an extremely finely powdered food (similar in size to what we used 50 years ago, to a fry food know then as "Micrograin" -- made by Longlife, but no longer available). There's another seller also now on AquaBid, who is offering APR. The shipping on both the microworms and this APR is free, and I'd advise you to look into it as it still may be helpful in a few days from now when you get it. There's a product called "Liquifry," but it's essentially similar to the egg yolk infusion. While fry may feed on some of this, its main benefit is to promote a larger infusoria population of the residing animaculae, but again you need to be careful with it. Some Betta breeders use a fry food called "First Bites," but I'm not sure at what size the fry need to be to handle it. I no longer breed Bettas, and this food was not available at the time I did so. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! > > I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. > > What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. > > Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50614	From: harry perry	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!/First few weeks

I have raised Gouramis successfully. I used a similar set up to your 10 gal. but it was only half full. The temp. was 80 and I covered the tank with plastic wrap. I put the heater in a large mouthed bottle full of water so it wouldn't crack since the tank is half full. This also keeps the fry away from the heater. I left the male in till the fry were free swimming and then removed him. I watched the food sac attached to the fry when it was depleted about 24 to 48 hours I fed only liquid fry food but frequently. The half filled tank was so they could reach the surface easily when it was time for their first breath. When they are born their labyrinth organ is still developing. I had the BBS ready at 7 days. The plastic wrap was so the air for their first breath was the same temp. as the water. If not they will die. Good luck any questions just ask. I am a moderator and am here frequently. Harry --- On Sun, 2/27/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Gourami fry!! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 8:05 AM   R, Like other fish species having a protective instinct of their young, your male Pearl Gourami will defend them (as you are noticing) from predators, but unlike other more advanced species (such as Cichlids), this instinct is not as long long-lived. Your Pearl Gourami male will soon lose interest in guarding his fry -- and may already have done so by now -- in which case your other fish will find the remaining ones to be a delightful snack. There's the possibility too, that when the male Gourami does lose interest, that he too will feast on any fry he can find that are near him. If you want to raise any of them, I'd advise removing these fry to another tank of their own ASAP, which I see you've done with about 20 of them. If any survive for a short period of time in their present tank, it won't be for long as they'll be sought after until they're large enough to fend for themselves without the chance of being eaten -- and they'll never get a chance to reach such a minimum size. Yes, Anabantoid fry are tiny slivers of fish -- about 1/10th the size of guppy fry. At this stage, as they first start free-swimming (after they've absorbed their egg sack), they'll need infusoria and/or rotifers to flourish. Some larger and stronger fry MAY be able to handle the smallest newly hatched brine shrimp (or tear a few pieces off of them) and will get a strong start, but the majority of them will not be able to handle whole BBS (baby brine shrimp) for about 7 to 10 days yet. You can speed this up by getting a brand of San Francisco Bay brine shrimp, which is smaller when first hatched, than the more universally used Great Salt Lake/Utah BBS. Still you're going to need smaller foods up until this time. Walter worms (a variety of micro-worms, about 3/4 of the normal size) will help towards this end in several days, but not immediately. You may try locating and culturing vinegar eels, a smaller food yet, which they should handle soon. Incidentally, there's a culture of regular microworms up on AquaBid right now, ending sometime this afternoon. You mention having good egg yolk available for them, and I'm fairly sure you must know though, that it can easily foul the tank when overfed -- but it is a good food for them if used correctly. A good substitute for the infusoria these fry now need is to use the yolk of a 20-minute had boiled egg. It should be squeezed through a men's muslin handkerchief and a bit about the size of a pea shaken up in a 4 ounce bottle of water. A few drop of this mixture should be taken up with an eye dropper and fed to the fry several times a day (at least three times a day, but up to five times will be the most beneficial). Be sure to always mix a fresh batch of this infusion each day and don't try feeding them egg yolk in water that may have developed any chance on bacteria. Another first-food you could feed them would to be to offer them APR (Artificial Plankton & Rotifers). It's an extremely finely powdered food (similar in size to what we used 50 years ago, to a fry food know then as "Micrograin" -- made by Longlife, but no longer available). There's another seller also now on AquaBid, who is offering APR. The shipping on both the microworms and this APR is free, and I'd advise you to look into it as it still may be helpful in a few days from now when you get it. There's a product called "Liquifry," but it's essentially similar to the egg yolk infusion. While fry may feed on some of this, its main benefit is to promote a larger infusoria population of the residing animaculae, but again you need to be careful with it. Some Betta breeders use a fry food called "First Bites," but I'm not sure at what size the fry need to be to handle it. I no longer breed Bettas, and this food was not available at the time I did so. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! > > I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. > > What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. > > Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50615	From: haecklers	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

When I was a kid we used to have barn cats. I always noticed the ones that were the same color were nicer to each other. Our chickens are the same way. Maybe you're on to something there! BTW, fish fry grow faster if you do frequent water changes - they give off some growth-suppressing hormone that stays in the water and can build up over time and slow their growth. I wish I'd known that when I had guppies! What are you going to do with all those baby fish? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Miren <miren@...> wrote: > > Hi and thanks for the welcome, > Do you think my molly is hilarious, well let me tell you that I had two more black females and the silly fish would only go for them. At the moment I only have one more small red male, and he is in paradise, as the rest are all females. > I bet someone would be pleased to be in his position! > Could it be that he needs some encouragement? > Any suggestions would be accepted!!! > > Miren :-) > > On 27 Feb 2011, at 08:44, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > Good morning and welcome Miren. Your tanks souind very interesting. Your black molly is hilarious. I've never heard of a fish who was choosy about which colors he would mate with lol. That's got to be unique, right everybody? What colors will he mate with? > > Well you have found a friendly and informative group so I'm sure you will enjou it. > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "mirenlopez68" <miren@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:19:06 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! > > > > Hi, > > As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: > > I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). > > The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. > > All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. > > Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. > > > > Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. > > > > Miren :-) > > By the way, good morning!!! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50616	From: haecklers	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!

Thank you, Ray, for your detailed response. I have vinegar eels and Walter worms and microworms (that unfortunately got mixed). The worms seem to sink and the fry are all at the top so I think I'll go with the vinegar eels, but they still seem too big for the size of the fry presently. I've got some infusoria, I put an old used sponge filter in the fry tank, and I'm giving them baster-fulls of the water from squeezing out another filter which is teeming with life. It's hard to trust, tho, that they'll find enough to eat near the top to grow bigger when I can't even see the food they're eating! A few of my tanks have some film on top of the water. Do you think I should try to scoop off some of that film and put it in the fry tank as a source of more surface food? The snails seem to like eating it. I also have a culture of microworms that is getting old and when I feed from it, it leaves a film floating on the water surface for a bit, would that be good food for them? My experience with fry this small is only bettas, which went DOWN to eat, so they ate the stuff that sank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > R, > > Like other fish species having a protective instinct of their young, your male Pearl Gourami will defend them (as you are noticing) from predators, but unlike other more advanced species (such as Cichlids), this instinct is not as long long-lived. Your Pearl Gourami male will soon lose interest in guarding his fry -- and may already have done so by now -- in which case your other fish will find the remaining ones to be a delightful snack. There's the possibility too, that when the male Gourami does lose interest, that he too will feast on any fry he can find that are near him. > > If you want to raise any of them, I'd advise removing these fry to another tank of their own ASAP, which I see you've done with about 20 of them. If any survive for a short period of time in their present tank, it won't be for long as they'll be sought after until they're large enough to fend for themselves without the chance of being eaten -- and they'll never get a chance to reach such a minimum size. > > Yes, Anabantoid fry are tiny slivers of fish -- about 1/10th the size of guppy fry. At this stage, as they first start free-swimming (after they've absorbed their egg sack), they'll need infusoria and/or rotifers to flourish. Some larger and stronger fry MAY be able to handle the smallest newly hatched brine shrimp (or tear a few pieces off of them) and will get a strong start, but the majority of them will not be able to handle whole BBS (baby brine shrimp) for about 7 to 10 days yet. You can speed this up by getting a brand of San Francisco Bay brine shrimp, which is smaller when first hatched, than the more universally used Great Salt Lake/Utah BBS. > > Still you're going to need smaller foods up until this time. Walter worms (a variety of micro-worms, about 3/4 of the normal size) will help towards this end in several days, but not immediately. You may try locating and culturing vinegar eels, a smaller food yet, which they should handle soon. Incidentally, there's a culture of regular microworms up on AquaBid right now, ending sometime this afternoon. > > You mention having good egg yolk available for them, and I'm fairly sure you must know though, that it can easily foul the tank when overfed -- but it is a good food for them if used correctly. A good substitute for the infusoria these fry now need is to use the yolk of a 20-minute had boiled egg. It should be squeezed through a men's muslin handkerchief and a bit about the size of a pea shaken up in a 4 ounce bottle of water. A few drop of this mixture should be taken up with an eye dropper and fed to the fry several times a day (at least three times a day, but up to five times will be the most beneficial). Be sure to always mix a fresh batch of this infusion each day and don't try feeding them egg yolk in water that may have developed any chance on bacteria. > > Another first-food you could feed them would to be to offer them APR (Artificial Plankton & Rotifers). It's an extremely finely powdered food (similar in size to what we used 50 years ago, to a fry food know then as "Micrograin" -- made by Longlife, but no longer available). There's another seller also now on AquaBid, who is offering APR. The shipping on both the microworms and this APR is free, and I'd advise you to look into it as it still may be helpful in a few days from now when you get it. > > There's a product called "Liquifry," but it's essentially similar to the egg yolk infusion. While fry may feed on some of this, its main benefit is to promote a larger infusoria population of the residing animaculae, but again you need to be careful with it. > > Some Betta breeders use a fry food called "First Bites," but I'm not sure at what size the fry need to be to handle it. I no longer breed Bettas, and this food was not available at the time I did so. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! > > > > I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. > > > > What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. > > > > Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50617	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Hello to everyone out there!

Fish for sure use color to choose mates. And to add to the animal list to whom color matters, horses will often forcibly exclude a light colored horse from their society. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 7:36 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Hello to everyone out there! When I was a kid we used to have barn cats. I always noticed the ones that were the same color were nicer to each other. Our chickens are the same way. Maybe you're on to something there! BTW, fish fry grow faster if you do frequent water changes - they give off some growth-suppressing hormone that stays in the water and can build up over time and slow their growth. I wish I'd known that when I had guppies! What are you going to do with all those baby fish? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Miren <miren@...> wrote: > > Hi and thanks for the welcome, > Do you think my molly is hilarious, well let me tell you that I had two more black females and the silly fish would only go for them. At the moment I only have one more small red male, and he is in paradise, as the rest are all females. > I bet someone would be pleased to be in his position! > Could it be that he needs some encouragement? > Any suggestions would be accepted!!! > > Miren :-) > > On 27 Feb 2011, at 08:44, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > Good morning and welcome Miren. Your tanks souind very interesting. Your black molly is hilarious. I've never heard of a fish who was choosy about which colors he would mate with lol. That's got to be unique, right everybody? What colors will he mate with? > > Well you have found a friendly and informative group so I'm sure you will enjou it. > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "mirenlopez68" <miren@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 08:19:06 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello to everyone out there! > > > > Hi, > > As you may have already worked it out I am new to this group. And I have been asked to tell you a bit about myself, and of course my fish too. Well herd we go: > > I have two small tanks at the moment. One has three catfishes, some tetras, a few harlequins, mollies (red, white, black and mixed red/white) and snails (two brown apple snails who are a little bit old now, and a yellow apple snail). > > The other tank has about 100 baby mollies of red, orange and White-ish colour. > > All my fish get on quite well together apart from the black molly who seems to be very picky. He will not mate with the white, red or mixed mollies. We think he has some colour issue. > > Anyway, at the moment those are my tanks, but looking to expand in the near future to larger tank. > > > > Oh well, that was long, sorry if I have bored you, but I promise I will not do it again. > > > > Miren :-) > > By the way, good morning!!! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50618	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Is This the Most Expensive Aquarium in the World?

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3657&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_25_2011&utm_term=Is_this_the_most_expensive_aquarium_in_the_world?&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4dystzn [Be sure to follow the link for pictures and the comments.] Is this the most expensive aquarium in the world? We think it probably is! If you happen to have £3 million sitting around doing nothing, you could have one of these. But you'd better not hang about, as only three of them are being made! The AquaVista Dinosaur Gold edition aquarium features 68kg of solid 24ct gold, two side veneers made from mammoth tusk, with a piece of T-Rex bone diagonally shaved into the tusk. So it has historical value too! AquaVista UK had asked Stuart Hughes to design them something unique - and they certainly got it! The project took four months to complete. This panoramic wall aquarium features a dual filtration system, heater, air pump, lighting, CO2 generator, and automatic feeder that is controlled by an easy to use programmable 24ct gold touch-screen control to simplify all functions. AquaVista will install the aquarium for you, and they say from there it's less than 15 minutes a month maintenance. The AquaVista Dinosaur Gold edition is available in a limited edition of just three. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Tuesday 22 February 2011, 5:32 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50619	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: How Long Fish Will My Live?

I am presenting a fragment of this article (you'll need to go to the link provided for the full article) about one person's thoughts about the longevity of various species. Personally, I'd say take some of his listings with a grain of salt, but others seem to be right on the mark from my experience. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3664&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_25_2011&utm_term=How_long_will_my_fish_live?&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4tlt4wt How long will my fish live? This a question often asked in the postbag of Practical Fishkeeping magazine. Having seen lots of aged fish on my travels, I wanted to find out the length of time some our aquarium veterans are surviving, and my findings are amazing! Unfortunately, although some fish die every year through disease, or mistakes, the ones that are being cared for properly are going on to reach a truly ripe old age, and that doesn't always seem to be related to species size. Species selection I think that as well as researching fish size and water requirements, we should also consider the length of time for which they will live. Life is short when you are an avid fishkeeper, as there are so many species to keep and so little time to keep them. To find out how long a broad selection of aquarium species are living I posted a blog asking readers, to share their experiences. What I found My investigations led me to discover that many community species of fish are capable of outliving a cat or a dog, so making themselves a long-term commitment for the fishkeeper. Take the Clown loach for example. I found ages up to 24 years reported, and, considering that in that time they can and will reach 30cm/12" in length and are a social species requiring the company of their own kind, the number of enthusiasts who can truly offer them what they need, compared with the number of people who purchase them, is very low indeed. Twenty five years is a large chunk of anyone's life and who can predict what they will be doing and where they will be living for the next quarter of a century? It seems it's not always the small species that have the shortest life spans. Most tetras, rasboras and small barbs can hit five years old, as you might expect, but my investigations showed that some were swimming through to seven, eight and even 10 ten years of age. An Emperor tetra was listed at nine years old and a Neon tetra at 10! I've listed two fish in the table at the end of this feature with big questions marks around them - a nine-year-old guppy and a 12-year-old White Cloud Mountain minnow. If those two cases are true then these small ''short lived'' fish species are outliving species like rainbowfish and some cichlids, both of which are normally noted for their longevity. The average life span for a guppy, apart from that one, was a much more average 18 months. Golden oldies Whether this is good or a bad I have yet to decide, but some families, genus and species stood out as being long lived. I've already mentioned the 24-year-old Clown loach, but even smaller loach species seem particularly aged. A 15-year- old Dwarf chain loach has been recorded along with a 17-year-old Kuhli loach. Then there are the catfish. I would go so far as to say that some catfish are known for being long lived, Synodontis in particular, and a Synodontis schall, a large syno, is listed at 38 years old. But even smaller synos are hitting the 20 years of age mark and beyond. I found a S.nigrita at 19, a S. flavitaeniatus at 20 and the small, true upside down catfish, S. nigriventris, at 21 years of age. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50620	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Slender snipe eel

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3665&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=February_25_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Slender_snipe_eel&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4mwbxmp [Photo available at site] [Anyone up for some snipe hunting?] Weird fish of the week: Slender snipe eel It's time for another trip to the deep for this week's ocean oddity as we take a look at Nemichthys scolopaceus, more commonly known as the Slender snipe eel or Threadfish. This strange looking fish certainly lives up to its name with a vastly elongated body, (up to 130cm/4ft 3in long) topped by a bulbous head with large eyes typical of many deep sea species. Its spine is made up of around 750 vertebrae, more than any other animal species currently known on Earth. The fish's jaws are greatly extended and curve away from each other at their tip meaning that they don't meet when the fish closes them. These slender jaws are filled with tiny hooked teeth with which the fish are believed to catch their prey by swimming mouth open, ensnaring any passing crustaceans on these toothy snags before swallowing them. Another bizarre characteristic is that despite their huge body length, their anus is situated near their head, a short distance behind the pectoral fin. What benefit this adaptation, or their extreme length in general gives them is uncertain. They have no distinct tail fin, instead their body ends in a long filament and they are thought to swim by means of a rippling motion of their extremely long dorsal and anal fins which both have over 300 rays. Their scientific name is also very descriptive: 'Nemichthys' from the Greek words for thread and fish and 'scolopaceus' alluding to the fishes' long, beak-like jaws which resemble those of wading birds, such as the snipe, (from where it gets its common name) which are from the family Scolopacidae. Little is known of their breeding, but degenerative changes in both sexes,(particularly the males whose jaws shorten with age) suggest they may be semelparous like many other eel species, dying after breeding. They are distributed world wide in tropical and temperate seas usually at depths of 400m or below. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 24 February 2011, 12:20 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50621	From: Ray	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: Gourami fry!!

Yes, microworms will sink. Wasn't aware that your fry wouldn't go to the bottom to eat though. Still, these and other stuff I mentioned (including vinegar eels are still too big for them at this stage. I would not feed them anything either as a film or derived from a film. If you don't think you're getting enough infusoriam try the egg yolk or Liquifry. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thank you, Ray, for your detailed response. I have vinegar eels and Walter worms and microworms (that unfortunately got mixed). The worms seem to sink and the fry are all at the top so I think I'll go with the vinegar eels, but they still seem too big for the size of the fry presently. I've got some infusoria, I put an old used sponge filter in the fry tank, and I'm giving them baster-fulls of the water from squeezing out another filter which is teeming with life. It's hard to trust, tho, that they'll find enough to eat near the top to grow bigger when I can't even see the food they're eating! > > A few of my tanks have some film on top of the water. Do you think I should try to scoop off some of that film and put it in the fry tank as a source of more surface food? The snails seem to like eating it. > > I also have a culture of microworms that is getting old and when I feed from it, it leaves a film floating on the water surface for a bit, would that be good food for them? > > My experience with fry this small is only bettas, which went DOWN to eat, so they ate the stuff that sank. > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > R, > > > > Like other fish species having a protective instinct of their young, your male Pearl Gourami will defend them (as you are noticing) from predators, but unlike other more advanced species (such as Cichlids), this instinct is not as long long-lived. Your Pearl Gourami male will soon lose interest in guarding his fry -- and may already have done so by now -- in which case your other fish will find the remaining ones to be a delightful snack. There's the possibility too, that when the male Gourami does lose interest, that he too will feast on any fry he can find that are near him. > > > > If you want to raise any of them, I'd advise removing these fry to another tank of their own ASAP, which I see you've done with about 20 of them. If any survive for a short period of time in their present tank, it won't be for long as they'll be sought after until they're large enough to fend for themselves without the chance of being eaten -- and they'll never get a chance to reach such a minimum size. > > > > Yes, Anabantoid fry are tiny slivers of fish -- about 1/10th the size of guppy fry. At this stage, as they first start free-swimming (after they've absorbed their egg sack), they'll need infusoria and/or rotifers to flourish. Some larger and stronger fry MAY be able to handle the smallest newly hatched brine shrimp (or tear a few pieces off of them) and will get a strong start, but the majority of them will not be able to handle whole BBS (baby brine shrimp) for about 7 to 10 days yet. You can speed this up by getting a brand of San Francisco Bay brine shrimp, which is smaller when first hatched, than the more universally used Great Salt Lake/Utah BBS. > > > > Still you're going to need smaller foods up until this time. Walter worms (a variety of micro-worms, about 3/4 of the normal size) will help towards this end in several days, but not immediately. You may try locating and culturing vinegar eels, a smaller food yet, which they should handle soon. Incidentally, there's a culture of regular microworms up on AquaBid right now, ending sometime this afternoon. > > > > You mention having good egg yolk available for them, and I'm fairly sure you must know though, that it can easily foul the tank when overfed -- but it is a good food for them if used correctly. A good substitute for the infusoria these fry now need is to use the yolk of a 20-minute had boiled egg. It should be squeezed through a men's muslin handkerchief and a bit about the size of a pea shaken up in a 4 ounce bottle of water. A few drop of this mixture should be taken up with an eye dropper and fed to the fry several times a day (at least three times a day, but up to five times will be the most beneficial). Be sure to always mix a fresh batch of this infusion each day and don't try feeding them egg yolk in water that may have developed any chance on bacteria. > > > > Another first-food you could feed them would to be to offer them APR (Artificial Plankton & Rotifers). It's an extremely finely powdered food (similar in size to what we used 50 years ago, to a fry food know then as "Micrograin" -- made by Longlife, but no longer available). There's another seller also now on AquaBid, who is offering APR. The shipping on both the microworms and this APR is free, and I'd advise you to look into it as it still may be helpful in a few days from now when you get it. > > > > There's a product called "Liquifry," but it's essentially similar to the egg yolk infusion. While fry may feed on some of this, its main benefit is to promote a larger infusoria population of the residing animaculae, but again you need to be careful with it. > > > > Some Betta breeders use a fry food called "First Bites," but I'm not sure at what size the fry need to be to handle it. I no longer breed Bettas, and this food was not available at the time I did so. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > My male pearl gourami has been keeping all the other fish in the tank to the bottom 3". This morning I found out why - there was a whole school of tiny newly hatched fish near the top! They must be gourami fry - they were smaller than guppy fry! > > > > > > I removed our juvenile convicts from a 10-gallon with a sponge filter and some algae on the walls, a few plants and floating duckweed and siphoned out about 20 of the gourami fry and put them in there. All that to say it's an established tank and probably has some infusoria in it now. > > > > > > What next? They're bigger than danio fry, can they eat BBS yet or do they just need infusoria for awhile? I've got that "First Food" and we have our own hens so really good egg yolk is available. > > > > > > Someone on here said they've raised gourami before, how did you do it the first few weeks???? What is the best temp? > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50622	From: Gian Carlo Miguel	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food

It would much be better if you buy foods designed for guppies. Since fishes differ in nutritional requirement, foods manufactured specifically for guppies would be the best choice. Though sometimes variation should be implemented. In your case, it would be just fine if you feed them that crushed koi pellets one in a while. Well it would also be much better if you sparingly feed them veggies and algae supplements as a weekly treat. This things would help enhance their colors. Following these guidelines would really ensure a healthy living for your pets

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50624	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 2/27/2011
Subject: Re: tropical fish & their food

Yes I agree. I bought a small bottle of tropical fish food and I'm going tomorrow (got a little more money) to buy guppy food. There is algae and plants in the tank so they can nibble and with all the advice I've gotten here I've decided to vary their diet and give them the koi food now and then. They beg for it everytime I come to the tank so I can't take it away from them unless it would hurt them which everyone says it won't, occaisionally. Thank you for your advice. Sincerely, Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Gian Carlo Miguel" <giancmpl@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 04:05:57 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: tropical fish & their food It would much be better if you buy foods designed for guppies. Since fishes differ in nutritional requirement, foods manufactured specifically for guppies would be the best choice. Though sometimes variation should be implemented. In your case, it would be just fine if you feed them that crushed koi pellets one in a while. Well it would also be much better if you sparingly feed them veggies and algae supplements as a weekly treat. This things would help enhance their colors. Following these guidelines would really ensure a healthy living for your pets [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50625	From: Miren	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

Good morning to you both, What type of fish food do you offer? I have mollies, tetras and catfishes. I would appreciate if you could send us some, but I will wait until you let me know if the food is suitable first. Thank you for your offer. Regards Miren :-) On 28 Feb 2011, at 02:52, "moochyesh@..." <moochyesh@...> wrote: > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50626	From: kuradi8	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

What kinds of foods do you have? My food distributor recently went out of business and I haven't found anything that my fish like as much as they liked his. ~Kai > "moochyesh@..." wrote: > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50627	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Hello fishlovers

Hi to everyone Im taking this moment to introduce myself. I am the owner and breeder of B...Bettas website. I have kept troupical fish for 2years, but have grown up with tropical and marine fish. It was only 9months ago my partner and I decided to go into breeding betta splendens (aka siamese fighting fish). We have a mini drip system built for the fish along with larger tanks for the fry to grow. At the moment we currently have 3 spawns growing all at different ages. We have only just set up our website which is were we will sell our fish. Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50628	From: horserider283	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: baby guppy

hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50629	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

Kai, Im sorry to hear a brand you trusted went out of buisness. We are really excited you want to try us out. We have high quality flake and flake blends that we have had great success with in our hatchery and growouts. The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin boosted flake. We would be happy to have you try some out and see if it is the right fit for you! -Christa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > What kinds of foods do you have? My food distributor recently went out of business and I haven't found anything that my fish like as much as they liked his. > ~Kai > > > > > "moochyesh@" wrote: > > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50630	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 2/28/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

Thanks so much for the responce Miren! we keep several tropical species and these flakes are well rounded and work great for most species. we are sure your fish will love these as much as ours do! The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin boosted flake ! We would love to send you some samples, i think the Vitamin flake and Veggie flakes would work best for you. If you intrested we would love to have you try it out! -Christa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Miren <miren@...> wrote: > > Good morning to you both, > What type of fish food do you offer? I have mollies, tetras and catfishes. > I would appreciate if you could send us some, but I will wait until you let me know if the food is suitable first. > Thank you for your offer. > Regards > > Miren :-) > > On 28 Feb 2011, at 02:52, "moochyesh@..." <moochyesh@...> wrote: > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50631	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers

Hello:     Welcome to the group.  It sounds like you're having a great time playing around with Bettas.  They are really nice fish.  I recently broke down and bought a beautiful blue male with a really full and flowing tail.  You'll find this to be a lively and very informed group.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Dawn....Bettas <dawn_bettas@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 10:05:43 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello fishlovers   Hi to everyone Im taking this moment to introduce myself. I am the owner and breeder of B...Bettas website. I have kept troupical fish for 2years, but have grown up with tropical and marine fish. It was only 9months ago my partner and I decided to go into breeding betta splendens (aka siamese fighting fish). We have a mini drip system built for the fish along with larger tanks for the fry to grow. At the moment we currently have 3 spawns growing all at different ages. We have only just set up our website which is were we will sell our fish. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50632	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

Ah, flake. My guys eat pellets. Their favorite was a sinking "catfish" blend and when that disappeared, I've tried several others that they eat because they have to, not because they like it. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "moochyesh@..." <moochyesh@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > Im sorry to hear a brand you trusted went out of buisness. We are really excited you want to try us out. We have high quality flake and flake blends that we have had great > success with in our hatchery and growouts. > > > The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first > ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin > boosted flake. > > We would be happy to have you try some out and see if it is the right fit for you! > > -Christa > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > What kinds of foods do you have? My food distributor recently went out of business and I haven't found anything that my fish like as much as they liked his. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > "moochyesh@" wrote: > > > > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50633	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers

I am also a Betta lover. Mom has a crown tail with a good deal of plakat in him. I have an indigo blue spade tail (a throwback to the 1980s) and an "orchid" veil tail with lousy fins but great color. They are three in a long line of Bettas. I keep promising myself that I'll get "good" Bettas next time... half moons, butterflies, etc. Maybe "someday" I will. (But I can't justify the cost of shipping, don't want to subject the poor guys to the gorillas of the Postal System and haven't found a local breeder.) ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >       Hello: >     Welcome to the group.  It sounds like you're having a great time playing > around with Bettas.  They are really nice fish.  I recently broke down and > bought a beautiful blue male with a really full and flowing tail.  You'll find > this to be a lively and very informed group. >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Dawn....Bettas <dawn_bettas@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 10:05:43 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello fishlovers > >   > Hi to everyone > Im taking this moment to introduce myself. I am the owner and breeder of > B...Bettas website. I have kept troupical fish for 2years, but have grown up > with tropical and marine fish. It was only 9months ago my partner and I decided > to go into breeding betta splendens (aka siamese fighting fish). We have a mini > drip system built for the fish along with larger tanks for the fry to grow. At > the moment we currently have 3 spawns growing all at different ages. We have > only just set up our website which is were we will sell our fish. > > Dawn > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50634	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50635	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

What makes your food special so we should try it? Do you use preservatives like ethoxyquin? Does it contain the carotenoid astaxanthin? Spirulina? Do you use raw ingredients or buy powders from suppliers? What is the Omega-3 content? Does it need to be frozen/refrigerated to maintain quality? To do something like this you must have put a lot of thought into your ingredients and think you have something better than Wardley or Tetra, so sell yourselves. You say you use it in your hatchery - what kind of fish are you using it on, are they pet store quality or show quality? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "moochyesh@..." <moochyesh@...> wrote: > > Thanks so much for the responce Miren! > > we keep several tropical species and these > flakes are well rounded and work great for most species. we are sure your fish will love these as much as ours do! > > The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first > ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin > boosted flake ! > > We would love to send you some samples, i think the Vitamin flake and Veggie flakes would work best for you. > > If you intrested we would love to have you try it out! > > -Christa > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Miren <miren@> wrote: > > > > Good morning to you both, > > What type of fish food do you offer? I have mollies, tetras and catfishes. > > I would appreciate if you could send us some, but I will wait until you let me know if the food is suitable first. > > Thank you for your offer. > > Regards > > > > Miren :-) > > > > On 28 Feb 2011, at 02:52, "moochyesh@" <moochyesh@> wrote: > > > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50636	From: Ray	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers

Kai, I'm going to give you something to think about, since you're always on the lookout for quality Bettas. One thing I'm not sure of though, is whether you want to travel to get them, or how far you'd consider traveling if you would drive to get them. I know in the past, that you did not want to drive from the Poconos to Philadelphia, so this leaves your driving for them in question. If you don't want to subject the poor fish to the "gorillas" during shipping, it would appear that you would never have fish shipped in to you even if the postage were free. The odds of a Betta breeder of top quality fish suddenly appearing in your local vicinity is certainly not a sure bet by any means, and would be more remote if anything -- so you just may need to travel to get what you need. If you're willing to travel, there will be a hugh all-species fish auction on April 3rd, held by my local club (North Jersey Aquarium Society). You'll need to drive east out I-80 (near you) to the Garden State Parkway and go a short distance from there if you're interested (I can give you directions). It will be held in Lyndhurst, NJ (the Lyndhurst Elks Club) which is very near the Giants Football Stadium in the New Jersey Meadowlands -- East Rutherford, NJ. We have one of the top Betta breeders in country in our club, who holds a very high ranking in the IBC. His fish are constant show winners, and he breeds Crowntails, Halfmoons and Plakats in many colors. As he's a personal friend of mine, I could ask him if he could bring some Lavender (or Purple) Bettas of your preference to the auction for you to bid on -- I think that's the color you said you're after. I'd get back to you after talking with him, to let you know what he has available if you're interested. At local auctions like this, even though his fish are easily worth from $35 on up, they seldom go for much more than $10 or $12 each (often less) and he doesn't mind since it helps the club. Let me know and I could arrange for him to have fish of your choice at the auction, if he has your preferred color in your preferred variety. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I am also a Betta lover. > > Mom has a crown tail with a good deal of plakat in him. I have an indigo blue spade tail (a throwback to the 1980s) and an "orchid" veil tail with lousy fins but great color. They are three in a long line of Bettas. > > I keep promising myself that I'll get "good" Bettas next time... half moons, butterflies, etc. Maybe "someday" I will. (But I can't justify the cost of shipping, don't want to subject the poor guys to the gorillas of the Postal System and haven't found a local breeder.) > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@> wrote: > > > >       Hello: > >     Welcome to the group.  It sounds like you're having a great time playing > > around with Bettas.  They are really nice fish.  I recently broke down and > > bought a beautiful blue male with a really full and flowing tail.  You'll find > > this to be a lively and very informed group. > >    Have a Great Day!!! > >    Spawn > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Dawn....Bettas <dawn_bettas@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 10:05:43 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello fishlovers > > > >   > > Hi to everyone > > Im taking this moment to introduce myself. I am the owner and breeder of > > B...Bettas website. I have kept troupical fish for 2years, but have grown up > > with tropical and marine fish. It was only 9months ago my partner and I decided > > to go into breeding betta splendens (aka siamese fighting fish). We have a mini > > drip system built for the fish along with larger tanks for the fry to grow. At > > the moment we currently have 3 spawns growing all at different ages. We have > > only just set up our website which is were we will sell our fish. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50637	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50638	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Hello fishlovers

Thanks Ray, I will take you up on your offer in a couple of years. I have two "new" LFS Bettas that will be with me for a few years so I won't be back in the market until they find their way to fishie heaven. Ha, I used to date a guy from Lyndhurst back in HS. (I wonder what ever happened to him.) Even though it's about the same distance, Lyndhurst doesn't seem as far away as Philly. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > I'm going to give you something to think about, since you're always on the lookout for quality Bettas. One thing I'm not sure of though, is whether you want to travel to get them, or how far you'd consider traveling if you would drive to get them. I know in the past, that you did not want to drive from the Poconos to Philadelphia, so this leaves your driving for them in question. > > If you don't want to subject the poor fish to the "gorillas" during shipping, it would appear that you would never have fish shipped in to you even if the postage were free. The odds of a Betta breeder of top quality fish suddenly appearing in your local vicinity is certainly not a sure bet by any means, and would be more remote if anything -- so you just may need to travel to get what you need. > > If you're willing to travel, there will be a hugh all-species fish auction on April 3rd, held by my local club (North Jersey Aquarium Society). You'll need to drive east out I-80 (near you) to the Garden State Parkway and go a short distance from there if you're interested (I can give you directions). It will be held in Lyndhurst, NJ (the Lyndhurst Elks Club) which is very near the Giants Football Stadium in the New Jersey Meadowlands -- East Rutherford, NJ. > > We have one of the top Betta breeders in country in our club, who holds a very high ranking in the IBC. His fish are constant show winners, and he breeds Crowntails, Halfmoons and Plakats in many colors. As he's a personal friend of mine, I could ask him if he could bring some Lavender (or Purple) Bettas of your preference to the auction for you to bid on -- I think that's the color you said you're after. I'd get back to you after talking with him, to let you know what he has available if you're interested. At local auctions like this, even though his fish are easily worth from $35 on up, they seldom go for much more than $10 or $12 each (often less) and he doesn't mind since it helps the club. Let me know and I could arrange for him to have fish of your choice at the auction, if he has your preferred color in your preferred variety. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > I am also a Betta lover. > > > > Mom has a crown tail with a good deal of plakat in him. I have an indigo blue spade tail (a throwback to the 1980s) and an "orchid" veil tail with lousy fins but great color. They are three in a long line of Bettas. > > > > I keep promising myself that I'll get "good" Bettas next time... half moons, butterflies, etc. Maybe "someday" I will. (But I can't justify the cost of shipping, don't want to subject the poor guys to the gorillas of the Postal System and haven't found a local breeder.) > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@> wrote: > > > > > >       Hello: > > >     Welcome to the group.  It sounds like you're having a great time playing > > > around with Bettas.  They are really nice fish.  I recently broke down and > > > bought a beautiful blue male with a really full and flowing tail.  You'll find > > > this to be a lively and very informed group. > > >    Have a Great Day!!! > > >    Spawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Dawn....Bettas <dawn_bettas@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 10:05:43 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hello fishlovers > > > > > >   > > > Hi to everyone > > > Im taking this moment to introduce myself. I am the owner and breeder of > > > B...Bettas website. I have kept troupical fish for 2years, but have grown up > > > with tropical and marine fish. It was only 9months ago my partner and I decided > > > to go into breeding betta splendens (aka siamese fighting fish). We have a mini > > > drip system built for the fish along with larger tanks for the fry to grow. At > > > the moment we currently have 3 spawns growing all at different ages. We have > > > only just set up our website which is were we will sell our fish. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50639	From: kuradi8	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: A Fish Tale

Larry the Lobster and Sam the Clam were old fish-buddies. But one day a terrible tragedy befell them. CLAMBAKE! And they were delicious. So Larry the Lobster and Sam the Clam went swimming up to fish-heaven where fish-St Peter met them at the gate. "Larry the Lobster," he said. "You've been a good lobster all your life. Welcome to fish-heaven." And fish-St Peter gave him his harp, and his halo, and his wings. "But Sam the Clam," he said, "Tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm sorry, you have to go to fish-hell." So the two old friends said their goodbyes and went their separate ways. Half an eternity later, Larry the Lobster began to miss his old pal Sam the Clam so he asked fish-St Peter for a pass. Fish-St Peter thought about it for a few moments and suddenly a digital watch appeared on Larry the Lobster's arm. "OK, you have six hours. But you must keep your harp with you. It's the only thing that will protect you." Larry the Lobster thanked him excitedly and went swimming down to fish-hell, harp in hand. Turned out that Sam the Clam had opened up a club. There was music, there was drinking, there were half-naked lady fishes dancing on the counters! YEE-HA! PARTY TIME!!! But time passed quickly and soon Larry the Lobster's alarm rang. The two old friends said their goodbyes and Larry the Lobster went swimming back up to fish-heaven. But he wasn't making such good time because he'd had a few too many (wink, wink) Shrimp Cocktails... Larry the Lobster slipped through the gates just as fish-St Peter was closing them. "Larry the Lobster!" fish-St Peter exclaimed. "Where have you been? You almost didn't make it back in time. Is that lipstick on your collar? Is that liquor on your breath? And WHERE'S YOUR HARP???" Larry the Lobster, unsteady on his feet, looked at one claw. Nope. Not there. He turned and looked at the other. Nope, not there either. So he shrugged and he sang, "I left my haaaaaaaarp in Sam Clam's discoooooooo..." I can hear you groaning from here... ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50640	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: A Fish Tale

Hello:    HA! HA! HA!  Very clever, I liked it.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 2:11:27 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] A Fish Tale   Larry the Lobster and Sam the Clam were old fish-buddies. But one day a terrible tragedy befell them. CLAMBAKE! And they were delicious. So Larry the Lobster and Sam the Clam went swimming up to fish-heaven where fish-St Peter met them at the gate. "Larry the Lobster," he said. "You've been a good lobster all your life. Welcome to fish-heaven." And fish-St Peter gave him his harp, and his halo, and his wings. "But Sam the Clam," he said, "Tsk, tsk, tsk. I'm sorry, you have to go to fish-hell." So the two old friends said their goodbyes and went their separate ways. Half an eternity later, Larry the Lobster began to miss his old pal Sam the Clam so he asked fish-St Peter for a pass. Fish-St Peter thought about it for a few moments and suddenly a digital watch appeared on Larry the Lobster's arm. "OK, you have six hours. But you must keep your harp with you. It's the only thing that will protect you." Larry the Lobster thanked him excitedly and went swimming down to fish-hell, harp in hand. Turned out that Sam the Clam had opened up a club. There was music, there was drinking, there were half-naked lady fishes dancing on the counters! YEE-HA! PARTY TIME!!! But time passed quickly and soon Larry the Lobster's alarm rang. The two old friends said their goodbyes and Larry the Lobster went swimming back up to fish-heaven. But he wasn't making such good time because he'd had a few too many (wink, wink) Shrimp Cocktails... Larry the Lobster slipped through the gates just as fish-St Peter was closing them. "Larry the Lobster!" fish-St Peter exclaimed. "Where have you been? You almost didn't make it back in time. Is that lipstick on your collar? Is that liquor on your breath? And WHERE'S YOUR HARP???" Larry the Lobster, unsteady on his feet, looked at one claw. Nope. Not there. He turned and looked at the other. Nope, not there either. So he shrugged and he sang, "I left my haaaaaaaarp in Sam Clam's discoooooooo..." I can hear you groaning from here... ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50641	From: Ray	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50642	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50643	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50644	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within hours. Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! -Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50645	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole

Hi I was recently given 3 rather large fancy goldfish and a 75 gallon tank. They came with a touch of fungus due to a mishap when the previous owners were on vacation. They also came with a box of supplies with different fungal treatments. One of them has had permanent swim bladder issues their whole life- I was told salt would make him swim even loopier so I did not add sodium. I did epsom salt in the water and fed only peas for a week and got a lot of improvement with the swimming of the swimbladder fish. During this time I started treatment as directed, one after the other, with 3 different fungal medications with minimal improvement of fungus. During this time fed them very lightly a couple times then fasted for several days in between, the last one being a week fast. I've been doing pwc 2x week. Today, after the week fast and pwc following the end of fungus cure treatment I noticed the black moor has a flesh colored smooth nub protruding from her vent hole. I've heard about this but have never had it happen to my fish in almost 10 yrs. What could it be? A hernia? What do I do? Thank you, Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50646	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

LOL, I read guppy as "puppy" the first time around and I was thinking, "What would they be feeding puppies to??" HAHA. Guess that's what I get for skimming through my emails ;) Amber On 3/1/2011 2:52 PM, haecklers wrote: > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50647	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole

When I've seen that on my Angelfish and it's because the female is getting ready to lay eggs. I'm not sure if Goldfish do this as well? Just a thought. Amber On 3/1/2011 2:34 PM, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Hi > I was recently given 3 rather large fancy goldfish and a 75 gallon > tank. They came with a touch of fungus due to a mishap when the > previous owners were on vacation. They also came with a box of > supplies with different fungal treatments. > > One of them has had permanent swim bladder issues their whole life- I > was told salt would make him swim even loopier so I did not add > sodium. I did epsom salt in the water and fed only peas for a week and > got a lot of improvement with the swimming of the swimbladder fish. > > During this time I started treatment as directed, one after the other, > with 3 different fungal medications with minimal improvement of > fungus. During this time fed them very lightly a couple times then > fasted for several days in between, the last one being a week fast. > > I've been doing pwc 2x week. Today, after the week fast and pwc > following the end of fungus cure treatment I noticed the black moor > has a flesh colored smooth nub protruding from her vent hole. > > I've heard about this but have never had it happen to my fish in > almost 10 yrs. What could it be? A hernia? What do I do? > Thank you, > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50648	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

How much does it cost to ship it ???? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50649	From: Christa Williams	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

We also have a wafer food and a five stick blend you could try out. Lets go ahead and go with those, Our black corys love it! ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:16:59 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Fish Food samples Ah, flake. My guys eat pellets. Their favorite was a sinking "catfish" blend and when that disappeared, I've tried several others that they eat because they have to, not because they like it. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "moochyesh@..." <moochyesh@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > Im sorry to hear a brand you trusted went out of buisness. We are really >excited you want to try us out. We have high quality flake and flake blends that >we have had great > success with in our hatchery and growouts. > > > The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first > ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin > boosted flake. > > We would be happy to have you try some out and see if it is the right fit for >you! > > -Christa > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > What kinds of foods do you have? My food distributor recently went out of >business and I haven't found anything that my fish like as much as they liked >his. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > "moochyesh@" wrote: > > > > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are >giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for >reading ! > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50650	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: my royal blue betta

My royal blue betta, also has red streaks down his tail , when he flairs it , it looks like rainbow.I think he's pretty , he's rare in his colors in my area. I have 4 photo's of him. I named him Royal. MyAquariumBowl ( my phone on home page)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50651	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

where do you get fish food samples? MyAquariumBowl <-------- (yahoo group) my fish you can view , he's in 10 gallon aquarium , by his self, i thought you may want view my only fish .

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50652	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moor w/protrusion from vent hole

Amber Thanks for the input. They were kept in 60ish degree water for some reason and I slowly raised it to 70. Generally goldfish mate when the temperature rises. So it is a possibility that she has fertilized eggs. Thank you for that information. Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 15:20:20 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Moor w/protrusion from vent hole When I've seen that on my Angelfish and it's because the female is getting ready to lay eggs. I'm not sure if Goldfish do this as well? Just a thought. Amber On 3/1/2011 2:34 PM, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > Hi > I was recently given 3 rather large fancy goldfish and a 75 gallon > tank. They came with a touch of fungus due to a mishap when the > previous owners were on vacation. They also came with a box of > supplies with different fungal treatments. > > One of them has had permanent swim bladder issues their whole life- I > was told salt would make him swim even loopier so I did not add > sodium. I did epsom salt in the water and fed only peas for a week and > got a lot of improvement with the swimming of the swimbladder fish. > > During this time I started treatment as directed, one after the other, > with 3 different fungal medications with minimal improvement of > fungus. During this time fed them very lightly a couple times then > fasted for several days in between, the last one being a week fast. > > I've been doing pwc 2x week. Today, after the week fast and pwc > following the end of fungus cure treatment I noticed the black moor > has a flesh colored smooth nub protruding from her vent hole. > > I've heard about this but have never had it happen to my fish in > almost 10 yrs. What could it be? A hernia? What do I do? > Thank you, > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50654	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as medication questions and sick fish). Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that I breed in one of my tanks. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > group rules go??? > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > learning about them. > > J. > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50655	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

J Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences. Your pets sound great. I have lots of goldfish, guppies, 4 adult trumpet snails who just started having tiny babies, a baby flounder, golden asian clams and dwarf african frogs. I have indoor and outdoor ponds, they are very relaxing aren't they? Bren Moderator of yahoo group goldfish_unlimited Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:29:14 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored.  Perhaps I should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any further suffering.  I read list posts during that time as I was trying to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the group rules go???   Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the turtles are in separate ponds).  I have a softshell turtle out back that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family.  I have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon.  I'm rehabbing a number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a front limb which required months of further antibiotic injections.  Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years.  That's about it.  Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy learning about them.   J.   P.S.  People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in California, but two towns away, they are.  Seems that it depends on the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM   In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50657	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction

Dear J. Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps down spamming and other issue that come up. We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from posting here. -Mike G. a moderator Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group... -----Original Message----- From: J. <my_chi_babies@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group...   Thank you for your kind words about our cat.  It was especially upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis.  He had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be without him now.   Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails are two different ballgames...  Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the aquarium shops.  The controversy I see about this on the internet is that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are actually Apple snails.  Have you heard of this?  I recently purchased two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating.  The female gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more later.  This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and Apple snails - the live births.  I'm enjoying just watching them...lol   Thanks again for the welcome!   J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM   Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as medication questions and sick fish). Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that I breed in one of my tanks. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > group rules go??? > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > learning about them. > > J. > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; wrote: > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50658	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: MyAquariumBowl

I was wondering if u could add my web link in links. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyAquariumBowl

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50659	From: haecklers	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

And inadvertantly helping the puppy mills - without any backyard breeders, where will the dogs come from? Like fish breeding - either local people breed ones that will thrive in local tap water or they are shipped in from out of country, often filled with parasites and dying from the harsh conditions of being shipped, held in quarantine, then a distribution center, then shipped again to pet stores. I could seriously soap box on that one! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@... wrote: > > Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any > animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us > from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. > > I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium > societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within > hours. > > Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! > > -Mike G. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one > in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all > the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. > I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for > shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every > few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and > they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered > stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from > you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, > they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50660	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction

As Mike said in another post most everyone is on moderation for usually the first year of joining the group. We do get a lot of spam that most of you guys out there don't see (because we catch it while allowing all the other posts to go through to the group). There are a lot of moderators though so most people don't have to wait long before their message makes it to the rest of the group (though there are rare times when they get lost before they finally show up to the group). Mystery snails are just one of many different types of Apple Snails. So the pet shops might have a permit to sell them only for fish tanks and not ponds. Some places it is illegal to have them in your pond (they can mass produce and possibly end up in local water ways and become a pest). Or the pet shops are selling them under a different name so that they don't get in trouble by people who don't know what mystery snails are. I've looked at the Japanese trapdoor pond snails myself, but I have a problem with all my Malaysian trumpet snails (MTS) already, and I didn't want more of a snail infestation ;) LOL I've heard they don't have as many live babies as the MTS. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:52 PM, J. wrote: > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... > > Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > without him now. > > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell > (and purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple > more later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails > and Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol > > Thanks again for the welcome! > > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > > > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as > medication questions and sick fish). > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > I breed in one of my tanks. > > Amber > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > group rules go??? > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > learning about them. > > > > J. > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > > animals but the town one does. > > > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > > wording! LOL! > > > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > > be used as feeders. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > > Bren > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "horserider283" > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50664	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Betta Poll

I see that Dawn has created a poll for those who like bettas asking what your favorite tail variety is. You can go here to vote: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/surveys?id=2665590 However, Dawn, I do have a bone to pick with you. You only list 7 tail types when there are at least 11. Comb Grooves at the end, not as pronounced as the Crown Crown Distinguished spiky grooves at the end Delta Elegant, very long finnage, rounded Double Two lobes of equal size with appearance of being split Fuse Extremely rare fusion of the caudal, dorsal & anal fins Halfmoon Very rare rounded tail that is stretched 180 degrees Heart Partially fused twin caudal fin Round or Fan Small to medium in size with pronounced rays that lead up to the end of the tail Short Finnage that is small Single Common one-lobed Veil Most common And here are a couple more, but I am not sure of the validity of these types: Boxtyzard full moon shape with red flairs Halfsun Combtail with anal fin going 180 degrees, like a halfmoon Rosetail halfmoon with so much finnage that it overlaps and looks like a rose Then, for more fun there are many color varieties, like butterfly, Cambodian, steel blue, red, green, pastels, and so on. Dawn, don't feel bad, some of these tail types are fairly rare, and seldom seen. For you folks out there who have persisted in reading this, the finnage on a male splendens with the fancy finnage should, when flared, form a partial circle around the body of the fish. The goal is a perfect circle, but I doubt you'll even see anything approaching that is a pet store betta. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50665	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

And, you should see how huffy and upset they get when their posts get tagged and removed <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 6:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within hours. Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! -Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50666	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction

J, You can take the cheap easy way out by getting a small inexpensive kiddie pool--the cheaper the better--the more expensive ones have plasticizers and mildewcides and algaecides in the plastic which are harmful to aquatic animals. Put water, rock, plants into it, light it with one of those floor lamps that arc over and direct the light down, throw on some kind of filter, and BINGO! A pond in the corner of your family room, living room, kitchen (not really recommended, but it can be done), or any room you wish. If you'd rather something other than the sometimes garish color of the kiddie pool, and something you can fit to the size of the pace you want, you just need some 2x6's, nails and a pond liner, and you can build the enclosure to the size and depth you wish. You can even get fancy by using some 1x3's to make the corners look nice, and hide the ends of the 2x6's, and maybe a 1x6 to give a nice look at the top and help hold the liner in place. Not hard to do, just need a bit of imagination. However, I'd probably not put it in the cat's favorite corner to hide, nor use the space where your border collie keeps its stash of toys. If you do have other critters of those persuasions, I'd probably use an X-pen to close off the area when I am not around so it does not become a drinking bowl or a playground for that water loving sheltie. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]Bren/Introduction Thank you so much for the condolences - I really appreciate that. Yes, we so totally enjoy our pets and it sounds like you have some fascinating pets, too! How do you keep golden asian clams?? I've never seen them anywhere here in CA. I think I might have trumpet snails, but am unsure. Are yours in the outdoor ponds? I brought in some pond plants from a pond that I keep just for varous pond plants and there were teeny little snails of two varieties on the plants that I now have in an aquarium. Fascinating to watch! I adore dwarf african frogs. Currently I have three red belly toads that I have had for like 8, 10 and 12 years. Yes, the ponds are sooo relaxing! You have indoor ponds? Wow! Can you share pictures? I have an Asian Leaf turtle that really needs an indoor pond, but sometimes I'm at a loss as to how to begin <shudder> J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> wrote: From: safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:49 PM J Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences. Your pets sound great. I have lots of goldfish, guppies, 4 adult trumpet snails who just started having tiny babies, a baby flounder, golden asian clams and dwarf african frogs. I have indoor and outdoor ponds, they are very relaxing aren't they? Bren Moderator of yahoo group goldfish_unlimited Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:29:14 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the group rules go???  Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a front limb which required months of further antibiotic injections.  Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy learning about them.  J.  P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM  In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50667	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Amber/Introduction

J, All the list newcomers are on moderation. We've had some pretty strange stuff happen here before that policy was instituted, and I do not mean the usual spammers and such. I do not often reply to "Introductions". When I do, it is either the introduction had a question within my expertise or it had a question. There are others here who are better at glad handing than I am. I did reply to a post of yours earlier this evening regarding indoor ponds. I did not realize that you had pond experience. It should be a piece of cake for you to do an indoor pond. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 7:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group... Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be without him now. Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol Thanks again for the welcome! J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as medication questions and sick fish). Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that I breed in one of my tanks. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > group rules go??? > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > learning about them. > > J. > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50669	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Food samples

Thanks so much for the reply and questions! we use bulk suppliers for our blends and products. Please understand that we are small scale home based breeders and fishkeepers. We initially supplied food for our friends and associates because we keep bulk sizes on hand. Since we get large amounts we can offer variety and also high quality food for cheaper prices than you'd find on the shelf. These are all products that we use in our own tanks. We have several different kinds that we use, and most are preservative free. The only ones that need to be kept refrigerated are the medicated flakes. We do have a veggie flake that has spirulina as its first ingredient that has worked very well with our fish! Thanks again to everybody who has been interested! -Christa and David --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What makes your food special so we should try it? Do you use preservatives like ethoxyquin? Does it contain the carotenoid astaxanthin? Spirulina? Do you use raw ingredients or buy powders from suppliers? What is the Omega-3 content? Does it need to be frozen/refrigerated to maintain quality? > > To do something like this you must have put a lot of thought into your ingredients and think you have something better than Wardley or Tetra, so sell yourselves. > > You say you use it in your hatchery - what kind of fish are you using it on, are they pet store quality or show quality? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "moochyesh@" <moochyesh@> wrote: > > > > Thanks so much for the responce Miren! > > > > we keep several tropical species and these > > flakes are well rounded and work great for most species. we are sure your fish will love these as much as ours do! > > > > The types incude a real veggie flake with spirulina as its first > > ingredient, a garlic flake, a blend we call guppy grub and a vitamin > > boosted flake ! > > > > We would love to send you some samples, i think the Vitamin flake and Veggie flakes would work best for you. > > > > If you intrested we would love to have you try it out! > > > > -Christa > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Miren <miren@> wrote: > > > > > > Good morning to you both, > > > What type of fish food do you offer? I have mollies, tetras and catfishes. > > > I would appreciate if you could send us some, but I will wait until you let me know if the food is suitable first. > > > Thank you for your offer. > > > Regards > > > > > > Miren :-) > > > > > > On 28 Feb 2011, at 02:52, "moochyesh@" <moochyesh@> wrote: > > > > > > > My husband and i have just started off our own fish food line and are giving out some free samples if anybody is interested! thanks so much for reading ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50670	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Mike/Amber/Introduction

Could you invite me, the one who has dog related groups. I have a verity of pets. Moderation dont bother me either. I agree on it. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "J." <my_chi_babies@...> wrote: > > Oh...  I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me.  >   > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM > > >   > > > > Dear J. > > Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps > down spamming and other issue that come up. > > We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting > posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from > posting here. > > -Mike G. a moderator > > Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... > > -----Original Message----- > From: J. <my_chi_babies@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... >   > Thank you for your kind words about our cat.  It was especially > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis.  He > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > without him now. >   > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > are two different ballgames...  Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and > purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > aquarium shops.  The controversy I see about this on the internet is > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > actually Apple snails.  Have you heard of this?  I recently purchased > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating.  The female > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more > later.  This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and > Apple snails - the live births.  I'm enjoying just watching them...lol >   > Thanks again for the welcome! >   > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > >   > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such > as > medication questions and sick fish). > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > I breed in one of my tanks. > > Amber > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and > caudal > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > group rules go??? > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > learning about them. > > > > J. > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@... > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; wrote: > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > > animals but the town one does. > > > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > > wording! LOL! > > > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend > to > > be used as feeders. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer > to, > > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > > Bren > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of > the > > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for > the > > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and > walls. > > > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within > a > > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped > from > > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "horserider283" > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50671	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction

J Golden asian clams are filter feeders. They keep the water clear for me by eating miniscule bits of food floating around and basically micrscopic food too. If you keep too clear and clean of an aquarium you must supplement their diet. The ones in my dwarf frog tank get some spinache baby food through a turkey baster now and then. But I have over twenty clams in my 75 gallon tank with the older goldfish and they stay well fed. I soak the fish pellets almost too soft and there is a little debris so the clams get lots of food. I also keep algae on one wall in each tank so micrsocopic critters live in it and feed the clams too. My 4 trumpet snails are in with the frogs. I have had them a few years and they are relatively long and fat and are pets. They are pointy shaped like an icecream cone. I have a smattering of gravel on 1/3 of the tank for them to dig around and eat. Clams like to dig around in gravel too. The snails also climb on my walls sometimes. When the snail babies get big enough I will add some to the goldfish tank. The indoor pond isn't much to look at right now, the little fancies and commons in there ate all the plants except one. I just got a large preform pond with 4 plant shelves, then only fill the base so as not to put pressure on the shelves which would eventually crack and ruin the pond. I usually keep plants on those shelves and it is very pretty but it is bare now. Your toads and turtles sound great. Quite a menagerie! Happy ponding Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:14:51 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]Bren/Introduction Thank you so much for the condolences - I really appreciate that.   Yes, we so totally enjoy our pets and it sounds like you have some fascinating pets, too!  How do you keep golden asian clams??  I've never seen them anywhere here in CA.  I think I might have trumpet snails, but am unsure.  Are yours in the outdoor ponds?  I brought in some pond plants from a pond that I keep just for varous pond plants and there were teeny little snails of two varieties on the plants that I now have in an aquarium.  Fascinating to watch!  I adore dwarf african frogs.  Currently I have three red belly toads that I have had for like 8, 10 and 12 years.    Yes, the ponds are sooo relaxing!  You have indoor ponds?  Wow!  Can you share pictures?  I have an Asian Leaf turtle that really needs an indoor pond, but sometimes I'm at a loss as to how to begin <shudder>   J.  --- On Tue, 3/1/11, safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> wrote: From: safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:49 PM   J Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences. Your pets sound great. I have lots of goldfish, guppies, 4 adult trumpet snails who just started having tiny babies, a baby flounder, golden asian clams and dwarf african frogs. I have indoor and outdoor ponds, they are very relaxing aren't they? Bren Moderator of yahoo group goldfish_unlimited Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:29:14 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored.  Perhaps I should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any further suffering.  I read list posts during that time as I was trying to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the group rules go???   Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the turtles are in separate ponds).  I have a softshell turtle out back that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family.  I have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon.  I'm rehabbing a number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a front limb which required months of further antibiotic injections.  Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years.  That's about it.  Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy learning about them.   J.   P.S.  People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in California, but two towns away, they are.  Seems that it depends on the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM   In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50672	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction

There are more than 3200 members registered here, and it can get quite busy at times. I'd hate to think what it would be like with 3200 people actually posting to the list, even once a month. Smaller lists are different. There is a more homey feel to them. People are not so likely to get off the beaten path, so to speak. I belong to another list here on Yahoo (pet-law), and everyone is moderated. It is not a dog list, but may as well be with the number of dog people there. I also belong to another large list (not on Yahoo) that is not moderated, but if an inappropriate post appears, the offender certainly hears about it, and some have been removed from the list. This is not a frequent occurrence since the list is a highly technical one (not that we can't have fun), and that can be an intimidating factor to many. Oh yeah, Amber is from the land of the Midnight Sun. Soon she'll be on 24 hour shifts since there is no night, and be able to keep you company any time <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:17 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction Oh... I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me. J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM Dear J. Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps down spamming and other issue that come up. We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from posting here. -Mike G. a moderator Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group... -----Original Message----- From: J. <my_chi_babies@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group...  Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be without him now.  Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol  Thanks again for the welcome!  J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM  Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as medication questions and sick fish). Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that I breed in one of my tanks. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > group rules go??? > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > learning about them. > > J. > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > -----------------------<snip>--------------------

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50673	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 3/1/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction

I am also on the Pet-Law list as \\Steve// is and it is a well run group with excellent content to boot! I also moderate other groups and each of them has a different feel to them. Some bird breeding groups, birds for sale groups and I used to moderate a family group for my extended family. That one lasted almost ten years before I pulled the plug. No one fights like families fight! Having to moderate people that used to change your diapers has led to a lot of hurt feelings. As far as moderation on this group we occasionally will discuss the need to approve or deny a post but for the most part it is a fairly quick. If there is a time lapse as I believe Amber or \\Steve// mentioned Yahoo sends things late and out of order at times. -Mike G. (a moderator) Board member of the Pacific Coast Cichlid Association. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 8:46 pm Subject: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction There are more than 3200 members registered here, and it can get quite busy at times. I'd hate to think what it would be like with 3200 people actually posting to the list, even once a month. Smaller lists are different. There is a more homey feel to them. People are not so likely to get off the beaten path, so to speak. I belong to another list here on Yahoo (pet-law), and everyone is moderated. It is not a dog list, but may as well be with the number of dog people there. I also belong to another large list (not on Yahoo) that is not moderated, but if an inappropriate post appears, the offender certainly hears about it, and some have been removed from the list. This is not a frequent occurrence since the list is a highly technical one (not that we can't have fun), and that can be an intimidating factor to many. Oh yeah, Amber is from the land of the Midnight Sun. Soon she'll be on 24 hour shifts since there is no night, and be able to keep you company any time <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of J. Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:17 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction Oh... I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me. J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM Dear J. Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps down spamming and other issue that come up. We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from posting here. -Mike G. a moderator Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group... -----Original Message----- From: J. <my_chi_babies@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the group...  Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be without him now.  Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol  Thanks again for the welcome!  J. --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM  Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such as medication questions and sick fish). Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that I breed in one of my tanks. Amber On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > group rules go??? > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > learning about them. > > J. > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > -----------------------<snip>--------------------

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50674	From: Ray	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: backyard breeders (ot)/baby guppy

J., That's so very unfortunate that you and your dog had to go all through those experiences and expenses, which could have been avoided if only this dog breeder had been more consciencious and responsible before allowing her disadvantaged dogs to breed in the first place. I extend my sympathies to both you and your dog. While we're on this subject though, and since you brought up and question the moderation procedure that has been in place on this List, I would like to point out here that although I'm not intending to be hard-lined on this, your post concerning your experiences with this backyard dog breeder is technically really getting Off-Topic and one that might have ordinarily been either deleted and/or brought to your attention as being O/T as it was being moderated since it is getting more than a bit removed from actual fish discussions. In realize that the moderator who originally approved your message also appears to have the same sentiment as the rest of us, when considering your (and your dog's) misfortune, especially as your description of these events lead back to Haecklers' opening statement about back yard (dog) breeders, but she immediately goes on to fish breeding -- a definite on-topic discussion here. It's very easy when replying to such posts to go off on a tangent, even when there are similarities -- and as I hope you can see -- we will allow for a certain amount of latitude when considering the whole picture, but I hope you can also see that it's very easy for one to continue even further off-topic while not actually intending to do so. which is where we must draw a line in permitting or deleting subjects getting too far removed from fish discussions. I'm assuming, by what you had said in one of your previous posts, that your dog group Lists may be more open to topics inadvertantly going off-topic, and perhaps those Lists are much smaller and more closely knit membership which may think nothing of bringing other matters into discussions even if they have nothing to do with dogs, but with over 3200 members here mostly for the purpose of discussing fish, I'm hoping you can appreciate that we need to keep extraneous matter unrelated to fish to a minimum, which is where moderation comes in. As \\Steve// mentions, moderation here takes many forms, much of it concerning spam, but staying on topic is yet another part of this on going job to keep the List going smoothly. Thanks for your understanding; our moderating is nothing personal. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "my_chi_babies" <my_chi_babies@...> wrote: > > Uh, well they would come from legitimate breeders that are breeding for the health and betterment of the breed. I had the unfortunate experience of purchasing a puppy from someone that was a backyard breeder that passed herself off as being "anything but". When my pup was 13 months old, her growth platelets in her legs went "wild" and her legs were suddenly really long. She lost traction running on a linoleum floor and fractured her front right leg. We rushed her to emergency and consulted with a board certified orthopedic surgeon the next morning. Surgery to place a metal plate and six screws was $4,500. Nine months later, she easily blew the other leg in the same place as the first leg (as we were told would happen due to the strength in the repaired leg). That surgery was done by the owner of the orthpedic specialty hospital and was even more successful, but at a cost of $7,500. We contacted the breeder and advised her that she had to refund the cost of the puppy as per California law and she advised us that she had just filed for disability. I told her that I would file a lien on the house and she advised us that she was a renter. This was AFTER she admitted to us that our pup's father currently had a broken leg and that our pup's grandmother had a plate and screws in one of her legs. Obviously, the problems were in her lines. It would have been nice if she divulged all that information BEFORE we purchased our pup, but...she was a BACKYARD BREEDER. > > I think there's a HUGE difference between backyard breeders and legitimate breeders that have tested and certified their breeding stock. The shelters are full of dogs that were bred by backyard breeders that became too large, too lame or too sick. I would have much more preferred paying an extra $500 for a dog that was properly bred that the $12,000 + that I've spent on my little dog to keep her well. > > J. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > And inadvertantly helping the puppy mills - without any backyard breeders, where will the dogs come from? > > > > Like fish breeding - either local people breed ones that will thrive in local tap water or they are shipped in from out of country, often filled with parasites and dying from the harsh conditions of being shipped, held in quarantine, then a distribution center, then shipped again to pet stores. > > > > I could seriously soap box on that one! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@ wrote: > > > > > > Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any > > > animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us > > > from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. > > > > > > I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium > > > societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within > > > hours. > > > > > > Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! > > > > > > -Mike G. > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > > > animals but the town one does. > > > > > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > > > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > > > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > > > wording! LOL! > > > > > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > > > be used as feeders. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one > > > in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all > > > the time. Sorry for any confusion > > > > Bren > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > > > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > > > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > > > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > > > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > > > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > > > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. > > > I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for > > > shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > > > Bren > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > > > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > > > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every > > > few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and > > > they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered > > > stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from > > > you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, > > > they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > > > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > > > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > > > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > > > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > > > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > > > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > > > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50675	From: Ray	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mike/Amber/Introduction

Patricia, I'm please we were able to accomodate you with your web link, which I know you can appreciate as not an automatic member perk on this List. I glad too, that moderation doesn't bother you, as it's a necessary step we need to do in keeping things on target in being fish-related. As your present request for an invitation is not actually relevant to fish discussions, we would normally delete it or at the very least get back to you asking that you email the party in question directly, rather than post it to this List. Please keep this in mind for further personal matters. Thank you. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > Could you invite me, the one who has dog related groups. I have a verity of pets. Moderation dont bother me either. I agree on it. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "J." <my_chi_babies@> wrote: > > > > Oh...  I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me.  > >   > > J. > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@ <Deenerz@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Deenerz@ <Deenerz@> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > Dear J. > > > > Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps > > down spamming and other issue that come up. > > > > We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting > > posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from > > posting here. > > > > -Mike G. a moderator > > > > Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found > > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > > group... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: J. <my_chi_babies@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > > > Hi Amber...  Thanks so much for the welcome.  Actually, I just found > > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > > group... > >   > > Thank you for your kind words about our cat.  It was especially > > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis.  He > > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > > without him now. > >   > > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > > are two different ballgames...  Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and > > purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > > aquarium shops.  The controversy I see about this on the internet is > > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > > actually Apple snails.  Have you heard of this?  I recently purchased > > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating.  The female > > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more > > later.  This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and > > Apple snails - the live births.  I'm enjoying just watching them...lol > >   > > Thanks again for the welcome! > >   > > J. > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > > > >   > > > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such > > as > > medication questions and sick fish). > > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > > I breed in one of my tanks. > > > > Amber > > > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and > > caudal > > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > > group rules go??? > > > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > > learning about them. > > > > > > J. > > > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@ > > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; wrote: > > > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@ <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>>; > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > > > animals but the town one does. > > > > > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > > > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > > > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > > > wording! LOL! > > > > > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend > > to > > > be used as feeders. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > > > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > > > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > > > Bren > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer > > to, > > > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > > > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > > > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > > > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > > > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > > > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > > > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > > > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > > > Bren > > > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > > > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of > > the > > > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > > > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > > > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > > > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > > > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for > > the > > > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and > > walls. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > > > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within > > a > > > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped > > from > > > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > > > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > > > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;, "horserider283" > > > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > > > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > > > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50676	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll

Hi Steve I do agree with your comment and all the tail types and colours. I breed bettas and now focusing on breeding one line and expanding on that line to create some amazing fins and coloura. So I set up the poll as an experiement to see what people like and prefer. The list I created is just a list of what I think are the main, most known betta types. Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50677	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction - Golden Clams

The golden clams, while great in aquariums, are an invasive species and are not allowed in some states. In PA we have them in almost all the streams. If you go to a creek and see clam shells, white on the inside and dark brown on the outside, those are golden clams. Please don't move them from one place to another or release them - which can be easy to do accidentally because their babies are tiny free-swimming for a stage and you wouldn't see them in the water. They are displacing our native creatures. But they are really interesting creatures in an aquarium and help keep things clean. I've got one in my shrimp tank that does the bivalve show for me several times a day - sticks its lips out of the sand (two mouths) and sends a jet of water squirting out one while sucking in with the other to filter food out of the water column. I've vacuumed sand in other tanks where I thought they had died and found really large ones that had been going strong. If you keep your fish water drinking-clear they'll starve, but in a normal, slightly cloudy tank with plants and mulm they should probably thrive. I give mine no special care at all. Any other kind of mussel or clam should be viewed with suspicion because their offspring have a stage where they are parasitic, often on the gills of fish, so they could be dangerous to your fish but the golden clams don't have a parasitic phase. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > J > Golden asian clams are filter feeders. They keep the water clear for me by eating miniscule bits of food floating around and basically micrscopic food too. If you keep too clear and clean of an aquarium you must supplement their diet. The ones in my dwarf frog tank get some spinache baby food through a turkey baster now and then. But I have over twenty clams in my 75 gallon tank with the older goldfish and they stay well fed. I soak the fish pellets almost too soft and there is a little debris so the clams get lots of food. I also keep algae on one wall in each tank so micrsocopic critters live in it and feed the clams too. > My 4 trumpet snails are in with the frogs. I have had them a few years and they are relatively long and fat and are pets. They are pointy shaped like an icecream cone. I have a smattering of gravel on 1/3 of the tank for them to dig around and eat. > Clams like to dig around in gravel too. The snails also climb on my walls sometimes. When the snail babies get big enough I will add some to the goldfish tank. > The indoor pond isn't much to look at right now, the little fancies and commons in there ate all the plants except one. I just got a large preform pond with 4 plant shelves, then only fill the base so as not to put pressure on the shelves which would eventually crack and ruin the pond. I usually keep plants on those shelves and it is very pretty but it is bare now. > Your toads and turtles sound great. Quite a menagerie! Happy ponding > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:14:51 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]Bren/Introduction > > Thank you so much for the condolences - I really appreciate that. >   > Yes, we so totally enjoy our pets and it sounds like you have some fascinating pets, too!  How do you keep golden asian clams??  I've never seen them anywhere here in CA.  I think I might have trumpet snails, but am unsure.  Are yours in the outdoor ponds?  I brought in some pond plants from a pond that I keep just for varous pond plants and there were teeny little snails of two varieties on the plants that I now have in an aquarium.  Fascinating to watch!  I adore dwarf african frogs.  Currently I have three red belly toads that I have had for like 8, 10 and 12 years.  >   > Yes, the ponds are sooo relaxing!  You have indoor ponds?  Wow!  Can you share pictures?  I have an Asian Leaf turtle that really needs an indoor pond, but sometimes I'm at a loss as to how to begin <shudder> >   > J.  > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> wrote: > > > From: safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:49 PM > > >   > > > > J > Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences. Your pets sound great. I have lots of goldfish, guppies, 4 adult trumpet snails who just started having tiny babies, a baby flounder, golden asian clams and dwarf african frogs. I have indoor and outdoor ponds, they are very relaxing aren't they? > Bren > Moderator of yahoo group goldfish_unlimited > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:29:14 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored.  Perhaps I should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any further suffering.  I read list posts during that time as I was trying to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the group rules go??? >   > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the turtles are in separate ponds).  I have a softshell turtle out back that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family.  I have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon.  I'm rehabbing a number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a front limb which required months of further antibiotic injections.  Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years.  That's about it.  Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy learning about them. >   > J. >   > P.S.  People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in California, but two towns away, they are.  Seems that it depends on the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > >   > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50678	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll

Hi Steve I do agree with your comment and all the tail types and colours. I breed bettas and now focusing on breeding one line and expanding on that line to create some amazing fins and coloura. So I set up the poll as an experiement to see what people like and prefer. The list I created is just a list of what I think are the main, most known betta types. Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50679	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Betta Poll

I have to say I'm starting to like the "round tail" kind best. The veils can get too long and drag, making it hard for the bettas to swim. The round tails seem more functional, but still prettier than the plakats. They are hard to find, tho, so I understand why they wouldn't be a choice on your list. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn....Bettas" <dawn_bettas@...> wrote: > > > Hi Steve > > I do agree with your comment and all the tail types and colours. I breed bettas and now focusing on breeding one line and expanding on that line to create some amazing fins and coloura. So I set up the poll as an experiement to see what people like and prefer. The list I created is just a list of what I think are the main, most known betta types. > > Dawn >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50680	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Bren/Introduction - Golden Clams

I'm a bit of an aquarium addict, I've had just about every kind of freshwater critter there is! I had these clams before too because they are harmless to fish. I haven't seen mine shoot water but I see the bivalves. And I see the lips and what looks like them sticking out their tongue on the floor of the tank lol. You wouldn't know it to glance at them at a petstore but they are interesting little pets. They will move all the way across the tank if they feel like it. They are cute when they are this tiny (nickle sized) but I don't know what to expect in terms of full size or life expectancy. Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 13:36:08 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]Bren/Introduction - Golden Clams The golden clams, while great in aquariums, are an invasive species and are not allowed in some states. In PA we have them in almost all the streams. If you go to a creek and see clam shells, white on the inside and dark brown on the outside, those are golden clams. Please don't move them from one place to another or release them - which can be easy to do accidentally because their babies are tiny free-swimming for a stage and you wouldn't see them in the water. They are displacing our native creatures. But they are really interesting creatures in an aquarium and help keep things clean. I've got one in my shrimp tank that does the bivalve show for me several times a day - sticks its lips out of the sand (two mouths) and sends a jet of water squirting out one while sucking in with the other to filter food out of the water column. I've vacuumed sand in other tanks where I thought they had died and found really large ones that had been going strong. If you keep your fish water drinking-clear they'll starve, but in a normal, slightly cloudy tank with plants and mulm they should probably thrive. I give mine no special care at all. Any other kind of mussel or clam should be viewed with suspicion because their offspring have a stage where they are parasitic, often on the gills of fish, so they could be dangerous to your fish but the golden clams don't have a parasitic phase. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > J > Golden asian clams are filter feeders. They keep the water clear for me by eating miniscule bits of food floating around and basically micrscopic food too. If you keep too clear and clean of an aquarium you must supplement their diet. The ones in my dwarf frog tank get some spinache baby food through a turkey baster now and then. But I have over twenty clams in my 75 gallon tank with the older goldfish and they stay well fed. I soak the fish pellets almost too soft and there is a little debris so the clams get lots of food. I also keep algae on one wall in each tank so micrsocopic critters live in it and feed the clams too. > My 4 trumpet snails are in with the frogs. I have had them a few years and they are relatively long and fat and are pets. They are pointy shaped like an icecream cone. I have a smattering of gravel on 1/3 of the tank for them to dig around and eat. > Clams like to dig around in gravel too. The snails also climb on my walls sometimes. When the snail babies get big enough I will add some to the goldfish tank. > The indoor pond isn't much to look at right now, the little fancies and commons in there ate all the plants except one. I just got a large preform pond with 4 plant shelves, then only fill the base so as not to put pressure on the shelves which would eventually crack and ruin the pond. I usually keep plants on those shelves and it is very pretty but it is bare now. > Your toads and turtles sound great. Quite a menagerie! Happy ponding > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 17:14:51 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife]Bren/Introduction > > Thank you so much for the condolences - I really appreciate that. > �� > Yes, we so totally enjoy our pets and it sounds like you have some fascinating pets, too!�� How do you keep golden��asian clams??�� I've never seen them anywhere here in CA.�� I think I might have trumpet snails, but am unsure.�� Are yours in the outdoor ponds?�� I brought in some pond plants from a pond that I keep just for varous pond plants and there were teeny little snails of two varieties on the plants that I now have in an aquarium.�� Fascinating to watch!�� I adore dwarf african frogs.�� Currently I have three red belly toads that I have had for like 8, 10 and 12 years.�� > �� > Yes, the ponds are sooo relaxing!�� You have indoor ponds?�� Wow!�� Can you share pictures?�� I have an Asian Leaf turtle that really needs an indoor pond, but sometimes I'm at a loss as to how to begin <shudder> > �� > J.�� > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> wrote: > > > From: safirezprincess@... <safirezprincess@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:49 PM > > > �� > > > > J > Sorry to hear of your loss. My condolences. Your pets sound great. I have lots of goldfish, guppies, 4 adult trumpet snails who just started having tiny babies, a baby flounder, golden asian clams and dwarf african frogs. I have indoor and outdoor ponds, they are very relaxing aren't they? > Bren > Moderator of yahoo group goldfish_unlimited > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "J." <my_chi_babies@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 16:29:14 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored.���� Perhaps I should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and caudal vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any further suffering.���� I read list posts during that time as I was trying to take my mind off my heartbreak����and evidently erred insofar as the group rules go??? > ���� > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the turtles are in separate ponds).���� I have a softshell turtle out back that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family.���� I have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon.���� I'm rehabbing a number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming here and then we found that it had septic arthritis����of the joint in a front limb which required months of further����antibiotic injections.��������Some of my����large goldfish have been here for 15+ years.���� That's about it.���� Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really����enjoy learning about them. > ���� > J. > ���� > P.S.���� People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in California, but two towns away, they are.���� Seems that it depends on the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 3:52 PM > > > ���� > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50681	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction

HAHA Steve, I still sleep just like everyone else does in the US, just because we have less daylight doesn't mean I'm awake 24 hours a day ;) Oh and we're now gaining daylight too, so you missed the darkest part of the year (December) ;) Amber On 3/1/2011 7:46 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > There are more than 3200 members registered here, and it can get quite > busy at times. I'd hate to think what it would be like with 3200 > people actually posting to the list, even once a month. Smaller lists > are different. There is a more homey feel to them. People are not so > likely to get off the beaten path, so to speak. > > I belong to another list here on Yahoo (pet-law), and everyone is > moderated. It is not a dog list, but may as well be with the number of > dog people there. I also belong to another large list (not on Yahoo) > that is not moderated, but if an inappropriate post appears, the > offender certainly hears about it, and some have been removed from the > list. This is not a frequent occurrence since the list is a highly > technical one (not that we can't have fun), and that can be an > intimidating factor to many. > > Oh yeah, Amber is from the land of the Midnight Sun. Soon she'll be on > 24 hour shifts since there is no night, and be able to keep you > company any time <g>. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction > > Oh... I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never > had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on > moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me. > > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> wrote: > > From: Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> <Deenerz@... > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM > > Dear J. > > Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps > down spamming and other issue that come up. > > We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting > posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from > posting here. > > -Mike G. a moderator > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... > > -----Original Message----- > From: J. <my_chi_babies@... <mailto:my_chi_babies%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... >  > Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > without him now. >  > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and > purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more > later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and > Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol >  > Thanks again for the welcome! >  > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > >  > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such > as > medication questions and sick fish). > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > I breed in one of my tanks. > > Amber > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and > caudal > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > group rules go??? > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > learning about them. > > > > J. > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > -----------------------<snip>-------------------- > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50682	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

i want to get rid of them because i don't have any more room in the tank for them pluse i found another ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 9:11:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area >that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a >week or so > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50683	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

i don't like to use web sites that much ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 6:59:02 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within hours. Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! -Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away animals but the town one does. RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful wording! LOL! You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to be used as feeders. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > Bren > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50684	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

haha i have 2 now and am going to get more what will i do ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:18:17 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy LOL, I read guppy as "puppy" the first time around and I was thinking, "What would they be feeding puppies to??" HAHA. Guess that's what I get for skimming through my emails ;) Amber On 3/1/2011 2:52 PM, haecklers wrote: > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@... wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The > one in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish > fry all the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) > though. I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or > pay for shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water > every few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. > tank and they are doing quite well. You just need some of the > algae-covered stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between > feedings from you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the > guppy fry, they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50685	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

i don't know but i have 2 now ________________________________ From: Patricia Somewhere <patriciasomewhere@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:25:11 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy How much does it cost to ship it ???? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@...> wrote: > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area >that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a >week or so > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50686	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

wow that'spretty mean to do to a fish ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:51:44 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy And inadvertantly helping the puppy mills - without any backyard breeders, where will the dogs come from? Like fish breeding - either local people breed ones that will thrive in local tap water or they are shipped in from out of country, often filled with parasites and dying from the harsh conditions of being shipped, held in quarantine, then a distribution center, then shipped again to pet stores. I could seriously soap box on that one! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@... wrote: > > Craigslist is infested with animal rights activists that get almost any > animals for sale tagged for removal. Often in their zeal to stop us > from having pets they will even have adoption posts removed. > > I used to post meeting reminders for some of my local aquarium > societies and the AR people would inevitably have them removed within > hours. > > Watch these people, they are taking away our rights and our pets! > > -Mike G. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 3:52 pm > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > In my area the county freecycle group doesn't allow you to give away > animals but the town one does. > > RE: Craigslist, it's usually free, but they say you cannot SELL > animals, tho putting them up for adoption with a fee to be sure they > are wanted/well treated is ok. So everyone sells animals with careful > wording! LOL! > > You probably wouldn't want to give a guppy away for free, they tend to > be used as feeders. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > I didn't know some freecycler groups did not allow pet posts. The one > in my county does and I give away my extra guppies and goldfish fry all > the time. Sorry for any confusion > > Bren > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 22:53:27 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > Unless most freecycle groups are similar to the one(s) you refer to, > the ones that you say give fish away all the time are the exception. > All the freecycle groups in this tri-state (NJ, NY & PA) area > specifically do not allow posting of live animals of any kind, which > includes fish. Craig's list would be a better option, but nothing on > there is necessarily free unless stated -- which isn't very often. > There may be a charge to post something there (on Craig's list) though. > I doubt very much if anyone would drive any great distance or pay for > shipping, just for one guppy fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, safirezprincess@ wrote: > > > > > > Join freecycle in your area they give fish away all the time > > > Bren > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 14:11:51 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > > > > Why are you trying to get rid of it? If you're worried it will be > eaten, they can do ok in a small fishbowl with a plant and some of the > substrate from the main tank, as long as you change 1/2 the water every > few days and don't overfeed. I've got guppies in a room temp. tank and > they are doing quite well. You just need some of the algae-covered > stuff from the tank because they feed off of it between feedings from > you - just once or twice a day food isn't enough for the guppy fry, > they've always been eating off of the decorations and walls. > > > > > > If you want to get rid of it because all the parents died and you > feel like a failure, take heart - pet store guppies often die within a > week of buying them. They've had a really hard time being shipped from > Thailand to the US then held in a distribution center then shipped > again to a pet store. The babies usually survive and are quite hardy. > Their biggest threat aside from being eaten is being overfed. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" > <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or > massachsits area that would want on not sure what gender will be able > to go to a new home in a week or so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50687	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

2 baby guppies??? You're going to have a whole lot more! There's a reason they call them millions fish! What else do you have in the tank? A betta would eat the baby guppies when you're not looking! At least you don't have convicts - the parents kill any fish that tries to eat their babies... or look at them... or be in the same water as them. I've got about 150 convict babies now. The pet store will take them when they're 1" but it's only an 18 gallon tank, that will be some SERIOUS overcrowding by then! I have fish that would eat them but I can't bring myself to catch the cute lil' babies to feed to another fish. They look at you with their big round eyes, like Nemo. I'll post a picture of them now, but you won't be able to see it until the mods approve it. I think my album is "Haecklers fish" --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > i don't know but i have 2 now > > > ________________________________ > From: Patricia Somewhere <patriciasomewhere@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:25:11 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > How much does it cost to ship it ???? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits area > >that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a > >week or so > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50688	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: my dear shrimp.

hi all. my 3 little ghosts are now in a 10L bucket of tank water as my tank is being medicated for 6 days..... any opinions as to water change amounts and frequency to keep them comfortable in thier tempory quarters? tks. Al.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50689	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: baby guppy

i got a floating breeding tank it has a divider and i put the two female guppies in there an there is a divider between the babies so the won't get eaten and the only one around me that takes them is petco i am thinking of selling them to petcounlesssomebody in the group wants them ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 2, 2011 5:46:50 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy 2 baby guppies??? You're going to have a whole lot more! There's a reason they call them millions fish! What else do you have in the tank? A betta would eat the baby guppies when you're not looking! At least you don't have convicts - the parents kill any fish that tries to eat their babies... or look at them... or be in the same water as them. I've got about 150 convict babies now. The pet store will take them when they're 1" but it's only an 18 gallon tank, that will be some SERIOUS overcrowding by then! I have fish that would eat them but I can't bring myself to catch the cute lil' babies to feed to another fish. They look at you with their big round eyes, like Nemo. I'll post a picture of them now, but you won't be able to see it until the mods approve it. I think my album is "Haecklers fish" --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > > > i don't know but i have 2 now > > > ________________________________ > From: Patricia Somewhere <patriciasomewhere@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, March 1, 2011 7:25:11 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby guppy > > > How much does it cost to ship it ???? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "horserider283" <horserider283@> wrote: > > > > hi my only fry is one guppy is there any one in the albany or massachsits >area > > >that would want on not sure what gender will be able to go to a new home in a > >week or so > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50690	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction

Amber, I suggest re-reading my post now that the creatures of the night have less night to prowl about it. I was referring to your lengthening daylight, which will culminate at the time of the summer solstice in June. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 12:36 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction HAHA Steve, I still sleep just like everyone else does in the US, just because we have less daylight doesn't mean I'm awake 24 hours a day ;) Oh and we're now gaining daylight too, so you missed the darkest part of the year (December) ;) Amber On 3/1/2011 7:46 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > There are more than 3200 members registered here, and it can get quite > busy at times. I'd hate to think what it would be like with 3200 > people actually posting to the list, even once a month. Smaller lists > are different. There is a more homey feel to them. People are not so > likely to get off the beaten path, so to speak. > > I belong to another list here on Yahoo (pet-law), and everyone is > moderated. It is not a dog list, but may as well be with the number of > dog people there. I also belong to another large list (not on Yahoo) > that is not moderated, but if an inappropriate post appears, the > offender certainly hears about it, and some have been removed from the > list. This is not a frequent occurrence since the list is a highly > technical one (not that we can't have fun), and that can be an > intimidating factor to many. > > Oh yeah, Amber is from the land of the Midnight Sun. Soon she'll be on > 24 hour shifts since there is no night, and be able to keep you > company any time <g>. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of J. > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction > > Oh... I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never > had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on > moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd to me. > > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> wrote: > > From: Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> <Deenerz@... > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM > > Dear J. > > Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps > down spamming and other issue that come up. > > We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting > posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from > posting here. > > -Mike G. a moderator > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... > > -----Original Message----- > From: J. <my_chi_babies@... <mailto:my_chi_babies%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > group... >  > Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > without him now. >  > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and > purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more > later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and > Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol >  > Thanks again for the welcome! >  > J. > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > >  > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such > as > medication questions and sick fish). > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > I breed in one of my tanks. > > Amber > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and > caudal > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > group rules go??? > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > learning about them. > > > > J. > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > -----------------------<snip>-------------------- > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50691	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction

LOL, Perhaps I need MORE sleep then, cuz I definitely mis-read your first post ;) Either that or I needed more coffee at the time ;) I wonder how my tropical fish would react to the odd daylight that Alaska gets through the year, I have a feeling they'd want more sunshine in the winter and less in the summer (which is about how I feel too, LOL). Amber On 3/2/2011 4:26 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Amber, > > I suggest re-reading my post now that the creatures of the night have > less night to prowl about it. I was referring to your lengthening > daylight, which will culminate at the time of the summer solstice in June. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 12:36 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: Moderation, Etc. WAS RE: [AquaticLife] > Mike/Amber/Introduction > > HAHA Steve, I still sleep just like everyone else does in the US, just > because we have less daylight doesn't mean I'm awake 24 hours a day ;) > Oh and we're now gaining daylight too, so you missed the darkest part of > the year (December) ;) > > Amber > > On 3/1/2011 7:46 PM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > > > There are more than 3200 members registered here, and it can get quite > > busy at times. I'd hate to think what it would be like with 3200 > > people actually posting to the list, even once a month. Smaller lists > > are different. There is a more homey feel to them. People are not so > > likely to get off the beaten path, so to speak. > > > > I belong to another list here on Yahoo (pet-law), and everyone is > > moderated. It is not a dog list, but may as well be with the number of > > dog people there. I also belong to another large list (not on Yahoo) > > that is not moderated, but if an inappropriate post appears, the > > offender certainly hears about it, and some have been removed from the > > list. This is not a frequent occurrence since the list is a highly > > technical one (not that we can't have fun), and that can be an > > intimidating factor to many. > > > > Oh yeah, Amber is from the land of the Midnight Sun. Soon she'll be on > > 24 hour shifts since there is no night, and be able to keep you > > company any time <g>. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of J. > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 8:17 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Mike/Amber/Introduction > > > > Oh... I run a couple Yahoo groups that are dog related and I've never > > had a problem with spamming and have never had to put anyone on > > moderation when they first join since 1994, so this felt a bit odd > to me. > > > > J. > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > > <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> wrote: > > > > From: Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > > <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com>> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 5:13 PM > > > > Dear J. > > > > Virtually the entire group is moderated. it is not personal, this keeps > > down spamming and other issue that come up. > > > > We do get a fair amount of spam that the moderators keep from getting > > posted as well as the occasional persons email that gets hacked from > > posting here. > > > > -Mike G. a moderator > > > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > > group... > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: J. <my_chi_babies@... <mailto:my_chi_babies%40yahoo.com> > <mailto:my_chi_babies%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, Mar 1, 2011 4:52 pm > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Amber/Introduction > > > > Hi Amber... Thanks so much for the welcome. Actually, I just found > > that I am currently on moderation and was contemplating leaving the > > group... > >  > > Thank you for your kind words about our cat. It was especially > > upsetting to have such a sudden onset with such a poor prognosis. He > > had been a part of our life for a very long time and it's hard to be > > without him now. > >  > > Amber, I was under the impression that Mystern snails and Apple snails > > are two different ballgames... Where I live, it's illegal to sell (and > > purchase) Apple snails, but we can purchase Mystery snails in the > > aquarium shops. The controversy I see about this on the internet is > > that many times what pet shops are selling as Mystery snails are > > actually Apple snails. Have you heard of this? I recently purchased > > two Japanese Trapdoor Pond snails and they're fascinating. The female > > gave live birth to first one baby when I got her and then a couple more > > later. This is what distinguishes them from the Mystery snails and > > Apple snails - the live births. I'm enjoying just watching them...lol > >  > > Thanks again for the welcome! > >  > > J. > > > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 4:36 PM > > > >  > > > > Try not to take it personal if you got ignored the first time around, > > there are often a lot of posts coming and going some some of them get > > ignored (including my own, LOL). I figure they just get lost in all the > > other posts and people forget to reply. If I have something important I > > tend to post again checking to see if anyone still has no input (such > > as > > medication questions and sick fish). > > Welcome to the group, very sorry to hear about your cat, I know how > > heartbreaking it is to lose a loved animal companion. > > I also love freshwater snails. I have Mystery Snails (Apple snail) that > > I breed in one of my tanks. > > > > Amber > > > > On 3/1/2011 3:29 PM, J. wrote: > > > > > > It saeems that I needed to do an introduction before posting - I came > > > to that conclusion after I posted and was totally ignored. Perhaps I > > > should have read the group rules, but I happened to join when my cat > > > had a sudden onset of illness and an ultrasound showed an angry and > > > invasive carcinoma (malignant tumor) in one kidney that presented a > > > very poor prognosis. It was partially surrounding the aorta and > > caudal > > > vena cava which is VERY serious and ultimately fatal in a short time. > > > We were heartbroken when making the decision to save our cat any > > > further suffering. I read list posts during that time as I was trying > > > to take my mind off my heartbreak and evidently erred insofar as the > > > group rules go??? > > > > > > Briefly, I have outdoor ponds with koi/goldfish and turtles (the > > > turtles are in separate ponds). I have a softshell turtle out back > > > that has been here for maybe 19 years and is a part of the family. I > > > have a Red Belly Newt that will be 20 years old soon. I'm rehabbing a > > > number of turtles right now that have had serious medical problems > > > including an Asian Leaf Turtle that first had pneumonia when coming > > > here and then we found that it had septic arthritis of the joint in a > > > front limb which required months of further antibiotic > > > injections. Some of my large goldfish have been here for 15+ years. > > > That's about it. Oh, lately I have been enjoying different water > > > snails (I posted about that when no one responded) and really enjoy > > > learning about them. > > > > > > J. > > > > > > P.S. People are not allowed to place animals on my Freecycle group in > > > California, but two towns away, they are. Seems that it depends on > > > the people who run the individual groups and the participants (if a > > > vote is allowed - which was allowed where I live). > > > > > > > -----------------------<snip>-------------------- > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50692	From: haecklers	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

Test the water for nitrates, nitrites, and ammonia frequently. Change the water whenever it starts to creep up. Adding some live plants will help. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi all. my 3 little ghosts are now in a 10L bucket of tank water as > my tank is being medicated for 6 days..... > any opinions as to water change amounts and frequency to keep them > comfortable in thier tempory quarters? > tks. Al. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50693	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/2/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

Do you happen to have a sponge filter you can borrow from another tank (or a spare one that's already cycled in another tank)? That would be best. You'll probably want to change some of the water daily, as without any filter or plants in your bucket there won't be much oxygen after 24 hours. They will try to stay at the surface if there is low oxygen in the water, so watch them to see how they're behaving to see if you need to give them fresh water. I would suggest adding some plants for them to forage for food on, they might be happier. Amber On 3/2/2011 1:56 PM, Al Keep wrote: > > hi all. my 3 little ghosts are now in a 10L bucket of tank water as > my tank is being medicated for 6 days..... > any opinions as to water change amounts and frequency to keep them > comfortable in thier tempory quarters? > tks. Al. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50694	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

How big will your shrimp get ? MyAquariumBowl (yahoo group)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50695	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: your fishes, tank mates

What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. I hope eveyone has a nice day. MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups )

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50696	From: Jessica	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

I have a blue betta, too. He has three albino corydora catfish and three ghost shirmp (two pregnant) for tankmates. He gets so fat, stealing their food. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? > > Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. > > I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. > > I hope eveyone has a nice day. > > > > MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups ) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50697	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

i also have a couple cory catfish a couple guppies a couple platties and 6 neon tetras. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50698	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

2 - 4 cm / 1 - 1.5 inches.... there cute. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > How big will your shrimp get ? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50699	From: haecklers	Date: 3/3/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

I'm running 13 tanks plus have a fish room with 61 bettas in it. In the tanks I have African cichlids, Jack Dempseys, Convicts, red cherry shrimp, kuhli loaches, angelfish, cories, guppies, White Clouds, ghost shrimp, danios, bala sharks, ancistrus, pearl gourami (and now gourami fry in another tank), marmokrebs, a crayfish, some goldfish (feeders we rescued), bettas of course, and probably some other stuff I forgot. My daughter is already begging for a tank of pygmy puffers to start a breeding colony. I told her once we get some of the fry tanks empty! It's part home school and part fish addiction. You'd be surprised what a home schooler can learn from breeding fish! Ecology of streams and water eco-systems, about how leaves rot and the bacteria feeds infusoria which feeds the smallest fish fry, contamination issues with metals, detergents, oils, etc.; health and nutrition; economics like supply and demand, supply chains, business relationships, accounting and record-keeping; geography (we learned about Thailand and Vietnam - where bettas come from; genetics and chaos theory; ethics, and more. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? > > Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. > > I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. > > I hope eveyone has a nice day. > > > > MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups ) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50700	From: Dawn....Bettas	Date: 3/4/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

Wow you have alot of tanks & fish!!! Do you breed your Bettas aswell??? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I'm running 13 tanks plus have a fish room with 61 bettas in it. In the tanks I have African cichlids, Jack Dempseys, Convicts, red cherry shrimp, kuhli loaches, angelfish, cories, guppies, White Clouds, ghost shrimp, danios, bala sharks, ancistrus, pearl gourami (and now gourami fry in another tank), marmokrebs, a crayfish, some goldfish (feeders we rescued), bettas of course, and probably some other stuff I forgot. > > My daughter is already begging for a tank of pygmy puffers to start a breeding colony. I told her once we get some of the fry tanks empty! > > It's part home school and part fish addiction. You'd be surprised what a home schooler can learn from breeding fish! Ecology of streams and water eco-systems, about how leaves rot and the bacteria feeds infusoria which feeds the smallest fish fry, contamination issues with metals, detergents, oils, etc.; health and nutrition; economics like supply and demand, supply chains, business relationships, accounting and record-keeping; geography (we learned about Thailand and Vietnam - where bettas come from; genetics and chaos theory; ethics, and more. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@> wrote: > > > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? > > > > Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. > > > > I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. > > > > I hope eveyone has a nice day. > > > > > > > > MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups ) > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50701	From: haecklers	Date: 3/4/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

We bred one pair of bettas, just to see if we could do it, I think. We wound up with over 200 bettas, which we are in the process of finding homes for now. Not sure I want all that work again, but I've now got a tank of gourami fry. LOL! A really nice breeder in the area who is also a school teacher offered my daughter a show-type female betta to breed with her platinum halfmoon male. We haven't gotten her yet, I'm kind of on the fence whether I want to do it all again, but he's got some lovely purple salamanders with a nice white band on their fins that are surely tempting. And now the pet stores are buying the bettas, $1 for females and $1.25 for the males, so as my daughter gets more money for her fish she's getting more enthusiastic about this. The daily water changes for the betta fry were really getting to me, but we just got a new siphon tube that is 3/8" instead of the much smaller one we'd been using. Now we're blowing through the water changes in half the time so it's not as bad. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn....Bettas" <dawn_bettas@...> wrote: > > Wow you have alot of tanks & fish!!! Do you breed your Bettas aswell??? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I'm running 13 tanks plus have a fish room with 61 bettas in it. In the tanks I have African cichlids, Jack Dempseys, Convicts, red cherry shrimp, kuhli loaches, angelfish, cories, guppies, White Clouds, ghost shrimp, danios, bala sharks, ancistrus, pearl gourami (and now gourami fry in another tank), marmokrebs, a crayfish, some goldfish (feeders we rescued), bettas of course, and probably some other stuff I forgot. > > > > My daughter is already begging for a tank of pygmy puffers to start a breeding colony. I told her once we get some of the fry tanks empty! > > > > It's part home school and part fish addiction. You'd be surprised what a home schooler can learn from breeding fish! Ecology of streams and water eco-systems, about how leaves rot and the bacteria feeds infusoria which feeds the smallest fish fry, contamination issues with metals, detergents, oils, etc.; health and nutrition; economics like supply and demand, supply chains, business relationships, accounting and record-keeping; geography (we learned about Thailand and Vietnam - where bettas come from; genetics and chaos theory; ethics, and more. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@> wrote: > > > > > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? > > > > > > Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. > > > > > > I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. > > > > > > I hope eveyone has a nice day. > > > > > > > > > > > > MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups ) > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50702	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: New Loricariids

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3675&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_4_2011&utm_term=Heiko_Bleher_discovers:_Loricariids&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4v9ad4d There are descriptions of newly discovered Loricariids, along with a photo of each, that may be finding their way into the hobby. One is related to the zebra pleco, while another is apparently an Ancistrus species, which may mean that those two will probably remain small enough to make good aquarium in habitants for most. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50703	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Bookmark This Page

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3688&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_4_2011&utm_term=The_A-Z_of_Fish_Health,_Part_1:_A-E&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4f4d5fs The A-Z of Fish Health, Part 1: A-E Dr Peter Burgess, Senior Consultant of the Aquarian Advisory Service, takes us through the alphabet, looking at the common - and not-so-common - health matters that can affect our fish. Ed's note: This is the first part of a full A-Z glossary of fish health terms. We'll be adding the rest of the series, along with the relevant links, very soon. --------<Continued at link>-------- {Please note that this is from a British publication, so thee may be terms included that we do not use in the US. Preferring to use another term for the same condition.) \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50704	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: The Mississippi paddlefish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3682&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_4_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_The_Mississippi_paddlefish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/468ohj6 [Photos and video at site.] Weird fish of the week: The Mississippi paddlefish Weirdness isn't purely the reserve of marine fish, so this week I thought we'd look at a freshwater oddity, the Mississippi paddlefish or spoonbill, Polyodon spathula. Coming from the same ancient order as sturgeons, and little changed from their Cretaceous ancestors of 145 million years ago, paddlefish look rather like a miniature basking shark with an oar stuck on their nose! The similarity to the giant marine plankton eater is no coincidence as the paddlefish itself feeds largely on the zooplankton found in the sediment rich, slow moving, murky Mississippi river system of North America. Growing to a maximum of around 2.2 m/7ft and weighing up to 100kg/220lb, these gentle river giants spend their time swimming with mouth agape, filtering their microscopic prey from the water with the aid of gill rakers (see the video below). The bizarre paddle-shaped rostrum, which can be as much as 50% of the fishes' body length, is thought to serve a dual purpose, helping channel plankton towards the mouth while at the same time being covered in electroreceptors used to detect prey as well as navigate its murky habitat, day or night. Tragically, like the vast majority of giant river fish species worldwide, the paddlefish is threatened within its native range with a number of factors at play in this situation. They are a popular food fish for both their meat and roe (sold as American Sevruga Caviar) and both legal and illegal harvest of the species are major population pressures, while introduced Asian carp (also filter feeders) are in many areas found in plague level populations and as a result outcompete the slower breeding paddlefish for available food. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50705	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Re: Bookmark This Page

I thought this was pretty good and I saved it for future reference. It's nice to have the symptoms of the various ailments to help forum members figure out how to treat. Luckily I have not experienced all of them myself, LOL. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 7:11 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Bookmark This Page http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3688 <http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3688&utm_source=PFK_n ewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_4_2011&utm_term=The_A-Z_of_Fis h_Health,_Part_1:_A-E&utm_content=html> &utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_4_2011&utm_te rm=The_A-Z_of_Fish_Health,_Part_1:_A-E&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4f4d5fs The A-Z of Fish Health, Part 1: A-E Dr Peter Burgess, Senior Consultant of the Aquarian Advisory Service, takes us through the alphabet, looking at the common - and not-so-common - health matters that can affect our fish. Ed's note: This is the first part of a full A-Z glossary of fish health terms. We'll be adding the rest of the series, along with the relevant links, very soon. --------<Continued at link>-------- {Please note that this is from a British publication, so thee may be terms included that we do not use in the US. Preferring to use another term for the same condition.) \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50706	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/5/2011
Subject: Re: your fishes, tank mates

wow , alot of water. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > We bred one pair of bettas, just to see if we could do it, I think. We wound up with over 200 bettas, which we are in the process of finding homes for now. Not sure I want all that work again, but I've now got a tank of gourami fry. LOL! > > A really nice breeder in the area who is also a school teacher offered my daughter a show-type female betta to breed with her platinum halfmoon male. We haven't gotten her yet, I'm kind of on the fence whether I want to do it all again, but he's got some lovely purple salamanders with a nice white band on their fins that are surely tempting. And now the pet stores are buying the bettas, $1 for females and $1.25 for the males, so as my daughter gets more money for her fish she's getting more enthusiastic about this. > > The daily water changes for the betta fry were really getting to me, but we just got a new siphon tube that is 3/8" instead of the much smaller one we'd been using. Now we're blowing through the water changes in half the time so it's not as bad. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn....Bettas" <dawn_bettas@> wrote: > > > > Wow you have alot of tanks & fish!!! Do you breed your Bettas aswell??? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm running 13 tanks plus have a fish room with 61 bettas in it. In the tanks I have African cichlids, Jack Dempseys, Convicts, red cherry shrimp, kuhli loaches, angelfish, cories, guppies, White Clouds, ghost shrimp, danios, bala sharks, ancistrus, pearl gourami (and now gourami fry in another tank), marmokrebs, a crayfish, some goldfish (feeders we rescued), bettas of course, and probably some other stuff I forgot. > > > > > > My daughter is already begging for a tank of pygmy puffers to start a breeding colony. I told her once we get some of the fry tanks empty! > > > > > > It's part home school and part fish addiction. You'd be surprised what a home schooler can learn from breeding fish! Ecology of streams and water eco-systems, about how leaves rot and the bacteria feeds infusoria which feeds the smallest fish fry, contamination issues with metals, detergents, oils, etc.; health and nutrition; economics like supply and demand, supply chains, business relationships, accounting and record-keeping; geography (we learned about Thailand and Vietnam - where bettas come from; genetics and chaos theory; ethics, and more. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What kind of fish or tank mates do you have? > > > > > > > > Right now i have royal blue fancy tail betta and a snail. > > > > > > > > I used to have a bunch fish, i had to give mine up for a bit and now im back in it, starting all over. I really missed seeing my fishes and mates. > > > > > > > > I hope eveyone has a nice day. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MyAquariumBowl ( yahoo groups ) > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50707	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Your Tax Dollars At Work

Today I have been sorting through stuff I have saved to my desktop for one reason or another, mostly forgotten now, and ran across a PDF file explaining how to handle fish that are no longer wanted in your aquarium. There was a link to the United States Geographical Service (USGS) where there is information on nonindigenous species. There is a service there that you can sign up to receive alerts about nonindigenous species as they are found, found in new areas, etc. You can break down the alerts by state and general group of animals. For instance, I selected Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland, and District of Columbia as the states (we will forgo any discussion of the status of DC here) I wanted to receive alerts from and fish as the animals of choice along with some other groups of animals likely to be found in an aquarium. You can check all this out using http://nas.er.usgs.gov as your starting point. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50708	From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: New file uploaded to AquaticLife

Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the AquaticLife group. File : /Fish.pdf Uploaded by : stevesza <steve@...> Description : Guide from th eUSGS on what to do with a fish that is no longer wanted. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/files/Fish.pdf To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/groups/original/members/web/index.html Regards, stevesza <steve@...>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50709	From: dmctjc	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Surprise babies

I had 6 Molly's in a quarantine tank for 10 days before moving them to an established 55 gal. The Q tank is a bare bottom 10 gal that I use a sponge filter and a heater in. The Molly's looked good, so, yesterday I decided to move them to the 55 gal and take apart the Q tank. Imagine my surprise when I was taking the water down in the Q tank before trying to net the Mollies and found babies! The Mollies had been young Mollies that a LFS was selling cheap after someone brought them in and gave them to the store. The babies could only have been a day or 2 old at the most. At that point I netted the original Mollies and changed 2 gal of the water. I'm wondering if it would be OK to move the babies to a 2 or 5 gal heated tank with an airstone and java moss in it until the fish are big enough to move to an established tank. I'll do daily water changes. It just seems like the Q tank space is being wasted. Donna

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50710	From: haecklers	Date: 3/6/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise babies

Your 10 gallon sounds like a great fry tank, they'll get bigger soon enough and you'll be glad to have the extra space for them, AND you won't have to do as many water changes. Just my thoughts. While they can grow ok on crushed flakes, if you can set up to hatch brine shrimp eggs, they'll grow much faster on those. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dmctjc" <mdogsmom@...> wrote: > > I had 6 Molly's in a quarantine tank for 10 days before moving them to an established 55 gal. The Q tank is a bare bottom 10 gal that I use a sponge filter and a heater in. The Molly's looked good, so, yesterday I decided to move them to the 55 gal and take apart the Q tank. Imagine my surprise when I was taking the water down in the Q tank before trying to net the Mollies and found babies! The Mollies had been young Mollies that a LFS was selling cheap after someone brought them in and gave them to the store. The babies could only have been a day or 2 old at the most. At that point I netted the original Mollies and changed 2 gal of the water. I'm wondering if it would be OK to move the babies to a 2 or 5 gal heated tank with an airstone and java moss in it until the fish are big enough to move to an established tank. I'll do daily water changes. It just seems like the Q tank space is being wasted. > > Donna >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50711	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

there back in thier home healthy and happy...thanks for the advice amber i changed half thier water every day. :- )>>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi all. my 3 little ghosts are now in a 10L bucket of tank water as > my tank is being medicated for 6 days..... > any opinions as to water change amounts and frequency to keep them > comfortable in thier tempory quarters? > tks. Al. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50712	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Re: my dear shrimp.

No problem, glad to hear that they are doing good :) Amber On 3/7/2011 1:02 PM, Al Keep wrote: > > there back in thier home healthy and happy...thanks for the advice > amber i changed half thier water every day. > :- )>>> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> > wrote: > > > > hi all. my 3 little ghosts are now in a 10L bucket of tank water as > > my tank is being medicated for 6 days..... > > any opinions as to water change amounts and frequency to keep them > > comfortable in thier tempory quarters? > > tks. Al. > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50713	From: Tori	Date: 3/7/2011
Subject: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX

Hello, This is going to sound stupid. I bought a big vase & a beautiful blue beta, the 2.5 yr. old grand daughter Belle, nmed him Frankie the Fish!! his water gets murky & Smells awful in two days, I bought this stuff to stop the odor & clear the water. I KILLED FRANKIE!!!!! So My daughter tells Belle, Frankie is at walmart seeing the doctor, thinking she will forget I wait a few days, Then she looks atme one AM with her hand on her hip, & says "So when is Frankie the fish, coming home from Walmart? Uh????" Needless to say that night I am at Walmart, looking for a magtching fish. She was dancing when she saw him in the AM. She singings to him. Okay, do not want to kill him again. But his jar stinks and the water is murky, how come? I am having to change him every two days!!! Why doesn't the little tub he comes in not do that?? What can I do? Okay now that you are wiping the tears from your eyes & your sides are aching from ROFl !!! Can anyone help me? Also Anyone in the 76180 or Mid-cities DFW Area That has any equipment they wan to get rid of contact me. I am a disabled senior citizen, on a limited income, I would like to have an aquarium setup for my apt. Also any fish to keep Frankie the fish company. I have never, had a tank before. What is a good start for a community tank. The one fish I really love is the flowerhorn fish . I would love to have any suggestions!!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50714	From: haecklers	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX

I think he may be getting too much food. Is the 2.5 year old the one feeding him? Give him ONE pellet, watch to see if he eats it, then if he does give him another one. Keep doing that. Count how many he eats and the next day give him that amount or maybe one less if it made his tummy bulgy. There is such a thing as killing them with kindness (tho I know people who follow the pet store advice of only feeding them 2 pellets once a week and starve the poor fish, too!) Flowerhorns are neat fish, but I don't know if a betta would be safe with one. The long fins make the bettas rather slow-moving in general and they are kind of lazy fish, they don't do well with fish that would like to eat them. If you want a rather intelligent fish that gets to a nice size, the "pink convict" (white really) cichlids are similar to flowerhorns but a lot less pricey (you have to give them to the pet stores for free if you've bred any). They sell them small but they get up to 5 inches or more, and are intelligent and can learn to recognize their owners. Convicts are very hardy fish and I think could survive someone with minimal fish experience until you get things figured out. If you're hoping to keep your betta in the aquarium then you'd need small, peaceful fish with him. Guppies have always done well with the bettas I've had. Other choices are the swordtails, rasboras, or the smaller tetras. Cory catfish or kuhli loaches will stay at the bottom and add some interest to the tank. Something the pet store folks don't tell people buying an aquarium, tho, is you need to let it run awhile to build up the good bacteria that break down the fish waste, so you need to add as few fish as possible,and only one at a time until it's been running well for at least 3 weeks, longer is better. You may be able to find a fish tank for free if you join Free Cycle - www.freecycle.org is the website. The reason they don't foul the tiny cups they are in in the store is because they probably don't feed them, so they don't have food rotting in the water or poos either. If you notice, the fish that have been there several weeks look like they're dying. They are. Fish in 1 cup of water need it changed twice a day or they start to suffer from the toxins their waste produces. Adding chemicals doesn't save the fish from dirty water, it just adds to the load their body is trying to cope with. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Tori" <laylatnt@...> wrote: > > Hello, > This is going to sound stupid. I bought a big vase & a beautiful blue beta, the 2.5 yr. old grand daughter Belle, nmed him Frankie the Fish!! > his water gets murky & Smells awful in two days, I bought this stuff to stop the odor & clear the water. I KILLED FRANKIE!!!!! > So My daughter tells Belle, Frankie is at walmart seeing the doctor, thinking she will forget I wait a few days, Then she looks atme one AM > with her hand on her hip, & says "So when is Frankie the fish, coming home from Walmart? Uh????" > > Needless to say that night I am at Walmart, looking for a magtching fish. She was dancing when she saw him in the AM. She singings to him. > Okay, do not want to kill him again. But his jar stinks and the water is murky, how come? I am having to change him every two days!!! > Why doesn't the little tub he comes in not do that?? > What can I do? > Okay now that you are wiping the tears from your eyes & your sides are aching from ROFl !!! Can anyone help me? > Also Anyone in the 76180 or Mid-cities DFW Area That has any equipment they wan to get rid of contact me. I am a disabled senior citizen, on a limited income, I would like to have an aquarium setup for my apt. Also any fish to keep Frankie the fish company. I have never, had a tank before. > > What is a good start for a community tank. The one fish I really love is the flowerhorn fish . > > I would love to have any suggestions!!!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50715	From: Jessica	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX

First, the vase is no good. That's barely enough water for him to live in, and the small size will mean it'll get especially dirty in a short amount of time. Watch the food he's given; they don't eat much. I make sure my betta eats his piece before I give him another (2 in the morning and 2 at night). A 10 gallon would be nice, or even a 5 or 2.5 gallon tank. But a filter would help with the water probably. With a filter you only have to change about 20% of the water once a week. Also live plants will help too, and they look great! I have mine with 3 corydora catfish and 3 ghost shrimp. Bettas are cool characters and their personalities will entertain you for years to come. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I think he may be getting too much food. Is the 2.5 year old the one feeding him? Give him ONE pellet, watch to see if he eats it, then if he does give him another one. Keep doing that. Count how many he eats and the next day give him that amount or maybe one less if it made his tummy bulgy. There is such a thing as killing them with kindness (tho I know people who follow the pet store advice of only feeding them 2 pellets once a week and starve the poor fish, too!) > > Flowerhorns are neat fish, but I don't know if a betta would be safe with one. The long fins make the bettas rather slow-moving in general and they are kind of lazy fish, they don't do well with fish that would like to eat them. If you want a rather intelligent fish that gets to a nice size, the "pink convict" (white really) cichlids are similar to flowerhorns but a lot less pricey (you have to give them to the pet stores for free if you've bred any). They sell them small but they get up to 5 inches or more, and are intelligent and can learn to recognize their owners. Convicts are very hardy fish and I think could survive someone with minimal fish experience until you get things figured out. > > If you're hoping to keep your betta in the aquarium then you'd need small, peaceful fish with him. Guppies have always done well with the bettas I've had. Other choices are the swordtails, rasboras, or the smaller tetras. Cory catfish or kuhli loaches will stay at the bottom and add some interest to the tank. Something the pet store folks don't tell people buying an aquarium, tho, is you need to let it run awhile to build up the good bacteria that break down the fish waste, so you need to add as few fish as possible,and only one at a time until it's been running well for at least 3 weeks, longer is better. > > You may be able to find a fish tank for free if you join Free Cycle - www.freecycle.org is the website. > > The reason they don't foul the tiny cups they are in in the store is because they probably don't feed them, so they don't have food rotting in the water or poos either. If you notice, the fish that have been there several weeks look like they're dying. They are. Fish in 1 cup of water need it changed twice a day or they start to suffer from the toxins their waste produces. Adding chemicals doesn't save the fish from dirty water, it just adds to the load their body is trying to cope with. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Tori" <laylatnt@> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > This is going to sound stupid. I bought a big vase & a beautiful blue beta, the 2.5 yr. old grand daughter Belle, nmed him Frankie the Fish!! > > his water gets murky & Smells awful in two days, I bought this stuff to stop the odor & clear the water. I KILLED FRANKIE!!!!! > > So My daughter tells Belle, Frankie is at walmart seeing the doctor, thinking she will forget I wait a few days, Then she looks atme one AM > > with her hand on her hip, & says "So when is Frankie the fish, coming home from Walmart? Uh????" > > > > Needless to say that night I am at Walmart, looking for a magtching fish. She was dancing when she saw him in the AM. She singings to him. > > Okay, do not want to kill him again. But his jar stinks and the water is murky, how come? I am having to change him every two days!!! > > Why doesn't the little tub he comes in not do that?? > > What can I do? > > Okay now that you are wiping the tears from your eyes & your sides are aching from ROFl !!! Can anyone help me? > > Also Anyone in the 76180 or Mid-cities DFW Area That has any equipment they wan to get rid of contact me. I am a disabled senior citizen, on a limited income, I would like to have an aquarium setup for my apt. Also any fish to keep Frankie the fish company. I have never, had a tank before. > > > > What is a good start for a community tank. The one fish I really love is the flowerhorn fish . > > > > I would love to have any suggestions!!!! > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50716	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX

Hi Tori, I'm guessing that your vase came WITH the Betta (and flowers?). There's a recent trend for florists to include a Betta in their flower vases, as sold with flowers. This is far from the ideal environment for any fish, not to mention that a vase is too small for a Betta to thrive in. If you bought your Betta separately, in one of those tiny bowls you mentioned, this barely keeps them alive when they're displayed for sale -- and they're fed very little (if anything) during this time. A Betta, just like any other fish, needs a tank if it is to do its best; a 2 1/2 gallon would be about the minimum size that would offer this fish some quality of life, with some decoration in the form of live plants added. If you want to include other fish with him, get at least a 5 gallon tank. As has already been brought out by others, Bettas don't eat much and the amount of their food needs to be moderated so as not to offer too much food that will only polute the water when he can't eat it all. This is most likely the cause of your cloudy water. Noting you added a "magic elixir" to stop the odor and clear the water, please keep in mind that it's always best to avoid adding any unnecessary chemicals to any fish tank at any time. Chemicals and aquatic life seldom mix as these chemicals were never found as part of the environment as this life evolved throughout the millenia. Many of these products are just gimmicks, as I'm sure you're finding out. The one you used may clear the water, but at what expense? Its object is to clear the water, but is not focused on the fish's health, or how toxic it may be to the fish. If, by chance, your Betta came with the vase (of flowers?), any dying and rotting flower stems would cloud the water. Removing the dying flowers to another container is no reason to permit the fish to live in the vase as it is just too small of an environment for a fish; it doesn't matter that this fish can get additional oxygen from the surface by breathing atmospheric air. Flowerhorns are attractive, but they are not community fish. They are derived from artificially cross-breeding various combinations of Cichlids to produce different color patterns. Most get far too large for the average community tank, and ALL get highly aggressive. This is not a fish to consider putting with your Betta, but needs a large tank of its own. They are generally expensive, also, and in my opinion not worth near their asking price, especially since most of them cannot be bred, but some hobbyists find their color patterns especially pleasing -- even though there are many Cichlid SPECIES which are equally attractive, and then some. A few smaller community-type fishes have already been suggested, but as far as compatability with Guppies, this is variable -- depending on the individual Betta. Some Bettas see the large tails of fancy male Guppies as another fish flaring at them in a threatening way, similar to how another male Betta may appear to him. As such, some of these male Bettas will attack these Guppies for this reason, in "protecting" themselves. No fish should need to go through being given complete water changes at any time, let alone every two days. An adequately sized aquarium will prevent this "necessity" from needing to be done. A filter and proper feeding, along with weekly maintenance -- partial water changes of about 20% at these intervals being sufficient. As has also been pointed out though, before adding any more fish to a tank that you may acquire for this Betta, the tank's filter needs to be "cycled," permitting populations of good nitrifying bacteria to build up in the filter which will break down the fish's organic waste products into relatively harmless nitrate (which you will be removing with the partial water changes (PWC's). Otherwise, if their are no beneficial bacteria to break the waste products down, they will create high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite, eventually enough to be toxic to the fish. I would advise your buying a master test kit when you can, to keep on top of what these water parameter levels tend to rise to while the tank cycles. In this way, you then know when to change more water as it becomes necessary up until the time the tank is completely cycled (which can take from 4 to 6 weeks). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Tori" <laylatnt@...> wrote: > > Hello, > This is going to sound stupid. I bought a big vase & a beautiful blue beta, the 2.5 yr. old grand daughter Belle, nmed him Frankie the Fish!! > his water gets murky & Smells awful in two days, I bought this stuff to stop the odor & clear the water. I KILLED FRANKIE!!!!! > So My daughter tells Belle, Frankie is at walmart seeing the doctor, thinking she will forget I wait a few days, Then she looks atme one AM > with her hand on her hip, & says "So when is Frankie the fish, coming home from Walmart? Uh????" > > Needless to say that night I am at Walmart, looking for a matching fish. She was dancing when she saw him in the AM. She singings to him. > Okay, do not want to kill him again. But his jar stinks and the water is murky, how come? I am having to change him every two days!!! > Why doesn't the little tub he comes in not do that?? > What can I do? > Okay now that you are wiping the tears from your eyes & your sides are aching from ROFl !!! Can anyone help me? > Also Anyone in the 76180 or Mid-cities DFW Area That has any equipment they wan to get rid of contact me. I am a disabled senior citizen, on a limited income, I would like to have an aquarium setup for my apt. Also any fish to keep Frankie the fish company. I have never, had a tank before. > > What is a good start for a community tank. The one fish I really love is the flowerhorn fish . > > I would love to have any suggestions!!!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50717	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Beta Blue Boy "Frankie the Fish "76180 DFW TX

The convict I had years ago nipped and beat up my Oscar, I don't recommend convicts for community tanks at all myself. Perhaps there are "friendly" convicts but I've never seen one. I keep Platty's and guppy's mostly with my bettas, but those are my female bettas, my males all have their own tanks. Amber On 3/7/2011 10:43 PM, haecklers wrote: > > I think he may be getting too much food. Is the 2.5 year old the one > feeding him? Give him ONE pellet, watch to see if he eats it, then if > he does give him another one. Keep doing that. Count how many he eats > and the next day give him that amount or maybe one less if it made his > tummy bulgy. There is such a thing as killing them with kindness (tho > I know people who follow the pet store advice of only feeding them 2 > pellets once a week and starve the poor fish, too!) > > Flowerhorns are neat fish, but I don't know if a betta would be safe > with one. The long fins make the bettas rather slow-moving in general > and they are kind of lazy fish, they don't do well with fish that > would like to eat them. If you want a rather intelligent fish that > gets to a nice size, the "pink convict" (white really) cichlids are > similar to flowerhorns but a lot less pricey (you have to give them to > the pet stores for free if you've bred any). They sell them small but > they get up to 5 inches or more, and are intelligent and can learn to > recognize their owners. Convicts are very hardy fish and I think could > survive someone with minimal fish experience until you get things > figured out. > > If you're hoping to keep your betta in the aquarium then you'd need > small, peaceful fish with him. Guppies have always done well with the > bettas I've had. Other choices are the swordtails, rasboras, or the > smaller tetras. Cory catfish or kuhli loaches will stay at the bottom > and add some interest to the tank. Something the pet store folks don't > tell people buying an aquarium, tho, is you need to let it run awhile > to build up the good bacteria that break down the fish waste, so you > need to add as few fish as possible,and only one at a time until it's > been running well for at least 3 weeks, longer is better. > > You may be able to find a fish tank for free if you join Free Cycle - > www.freecycle.org is the website. > > The reason they don't foul the tiny cups they are in in the store is > because they probably don't feed them, so they don't have food rotting > in the water or poos either. If you notice, the fish that have been > there several weeks look like they're dying. They are. Fish in 1 cup > of water need it changed twice a day or they start to suffer from the > toxins their waste produces. Adding chemicals doesn't save the fish > from dirty water, it just adds to the load their body is trying to > cope with. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Tori" <laylatnt@...> wrote: > > > > Hello, > > This is going to sound stupid. I bought a big vase & a beautiful > blue beta, the 2.5 yr. old grand daughter Belle, nmed him Frankie the > Fish!! > > his water gets murky & Smells awful in two days, I bought this stuff > to stop the odor & clear the water. I KILLED FRANKIE!!!!! > > So My daughter tells Belle, Frankie is at walmart seeing the doctor, > thinking she will forget I wait a few days, Then she looks atme one AM > > with her hand on her hip, & says "So when is Frankie the fish, > coming home from Walmart? Uh????" > > > > Needless to say that night I am at Walmart, looking for a magtching > fish. She was dancing when she saw him in the AM. She singings to him. > > Okay, do not want to kill him again. But his jar stinks and the > water is murky, how come? I am having to change him every two days!!! > > Why doesn't the little tub he comes in not do that?? > > What can I do? > > Okay now that you are wiping the tears from your eyes & your sides > are aching from ROFl !!! Can anyone help me? > > Also Anyone in the 76180 or Mid-cities DFW Area That has any > equipment they wan to get rid of contact me. I am a disabled senior > citizen, on a limited income, I would like to have an aquarium setup > for my apt. Also any fish to keep Frankie the fish company. I have > never, had a tank before. > > > > What is a good start for a community tank. The one fish I really > love is the flowerhorn fish . > > > > I would love to have any suggestions!!!! > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50718	From: Donna Camp	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise babies

Thanks for the thought. My husband came home with some platies from a friend, so, I had to move the babies to a different tank so I could have the 10 gal Q tank for the platies. On Sun, Mar 6, 2011 at 2:29 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > Your 10 gallon sounds like a great fry tank, they'll get bigger soon enough > and you'll be glad to have the extra space for them, AND you won't have to > do as many water changes. > > Just my thoughts. > > While they can grow ok on crushed flakes, if you can set up to hatch brine > shrimp eggs, they'll grow much faster on those. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dmctjc" <mdogsmom@...> wrote: > > > > I had 6 Molly's in a quarantine tank for 10 days before moving them to an > established 55 gal. The Q tank is a bare bottom 10 gal that I use a sponge > filter and a heater in. The Molly's looked good, so, yesterday I decided to > move them to the 55 gal and take apart the Q tank. Imagine my surprise when > I was taking the water down in the Q tank before trying to net the Mollies > and found babies! The Mollies had been young Mollies that a LFS was selling > cheap after someone brought them in and gave them to the store. The babies > could only have been a day or 2 old at the most. At that point I netted the > original Mollies and changed 2 gal of the water. I'm wondering if it would > be OK to move the babies to a 2 or 5 gal heated tank with an airstone and > java moss in it until the fish are big enough to move to an established > tank. I'll do daily water changes. It just seems like the Q tank space is > being wasted. > > > > Donna > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50719	From: LindaS	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Frankie The Fish

I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been learning ever since. First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and spit it out several times. Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, but didn't like her too well after that. The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use the water without adding chemicals this way. It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest about that. I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to burn the fish. These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really pretty. Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and I put him in a container that must have had something in it that irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just am one that does not accept defeat easily. So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. So, my fish had a near death experience. Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time with a disease it brought in. I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50720	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Hi Linda, I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements for living. I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to give them the best surroundings you can? Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, rather than a low of 70 o. I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for everyone. Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that you add to their container when doing a partial water change should not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water should always be at the same temperature as their container water. Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods of relaxation. For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the next hobbyist. BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass vases are still too small though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been learning ever since. > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and spit it out several times. > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, but didn't like her too well after that. > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use the water without adding chemicals this way. > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest about that. > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to burn the fish. > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really pretty. > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and I put him in a container that must have had something in it that irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just am one that does not accept defeat easily. > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. So, my fish had a near death experience. > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time with a disease it brought in. > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50721	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

It's better to use water the temp of the water in the bowl, rather than stressing the fish to adjust to a new temperature. Sometimes changing the temp too much can make a fish sick and even die (if it's too drastic of a change). I just match the water within 2 degrees at most. Amber On 3/8/2011 7:09 AM, LindaS wrote: > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to witness > the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta > fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > learning ever since. > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to Topfin > Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much fun to > feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each time. They > will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and spit it out > several times. > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. > They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a > female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other > way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something > happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, > and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, > but didn't like her too well after that. > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin > Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They > come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your > house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a > bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the > chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use > the water without adding chemicals this way. > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this conditioner > lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You will > see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores carry > them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I see them > going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. also you > can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can decorate the > bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a leaf every > once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off when I change > their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on these, or you > can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those curly ones, they > love those and they last a long time also. > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of mindset, > knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just happiest > alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are social > animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and will > flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the other > fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest about > that. > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side > by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. > It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the > glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > burn the fish. > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see > something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the > bowl really pretty. > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and > I put him in a container that must have had something in it that > irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long > he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just > am one that does not accept defeat easily. > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. > So, my fish had a near death experience. > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of money > to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if > you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got > one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time > with a disease it brought in. > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > LinS > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50722	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Ooops sorry Ray, just say your post after I replied to Linda's. Guess I should look ahead at the other posts more often ;) LOL. Amber On 3/8/2011 10:52 AM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Linda, > > I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing > to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that > Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with > you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish > would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think > differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you > made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their > best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not > much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has > little to do with the size container they can be offered when one > wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements > for living. > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another > in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing > fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container > such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of > life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to > it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their > best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as > cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does > not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just > being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to > give them the best surroundings you can? > > Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way > off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to > 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can > tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for > general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, > rather than a low of 70 o. > > I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water > anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that > may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have > long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a > month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm > glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit > overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for > everyone. > > Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be > subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in > aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To > use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria > bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a > method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that > you add to their container when doing a partial water change should > not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water > should always be at the same temperature as their container water. > > Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can > see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of > excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, > which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods > of relaxation. > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just > plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in > your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work > out well for the next hobbyist. > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small > tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of > several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them > besides. The glass vases are still too small though. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> > wrote: > > > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to > witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta > fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > learning ever since. > > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to > Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much > fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each > time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and > spit it out several times. > > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. > They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a > female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other > way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something > happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, > and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, > but didn't like her too well after that. > > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin > Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They > come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your > house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a > bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the > chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use > the water without adding chemicals this way. > > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this > conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You > will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores > carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I > see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. > also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can > decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a > leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off > when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on > these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those > curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. > > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of > mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just > happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are > social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and > will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the > other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest > about that. > > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side > by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. > It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the > glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > burn the fish. > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see > something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the > bowl really pretty. > > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and > I put him in a container that must have had something in it that > irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long > he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just > am one that does not accept defeat easily. > > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. > So, my fish had a near death experience. > > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of > money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment > if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got > one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time > with a disease it brought in. > > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > > LinS > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50723	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small tank where you can watch him. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish Hi Linda, I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements for living. I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to give them the best surroundings you can? Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, rather than a low of 70 o. I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for everyone. Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that you add to their container when doing a partial water change should not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water should always be at the same temperature as their container water. Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods of relaxation. For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the next hobbyist. BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass vases are still too small though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to witness the > fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta fish. > The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been learning > ever since. > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to Topfin > Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much fun to feed > the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each time. They will go > right to the pellet and you can see him eat and spit it out several times. > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. They > are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I witnessed > a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a female when I put > her in his water. I always thought it was the other way around and was > concentrating on protecting her if something happened. She instantly flew > to him and pulled off one of his gills, and I got to see him die for a > week. I kept her until her time came, but didn't like her too well after > that. > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well > for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin Water > Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They come from > warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your house is kept > warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a bucket of water to > sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the chlorine disipates > naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use the water without adding > chemicals this way. > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this conditioner > lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You will > see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores carry > them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I see them > going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. also you can > use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can decorate the bowl > really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a leaf every once > inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off when I change their > bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on these, or you can use a > (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those curly ones, they love those and > they last a long time also. > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of mindset, > knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just happiest > alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are social animals. I > do think they know when another fish is close-by and will flare and be > pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the other fish to fight. > Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest about that. > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side by > side container where they can see each other through the plastic. It is > plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the glass vases > overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the water, > and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked about) > which lets them go a few days without a complete change of water. You have > to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth and go to the bottom > of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to burn the fish. > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > pretty. > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him Tatoo) > had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and I put him > in a container that must have had something in it that irritated him. I > saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long he died. I was about > to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just am one that does not > accept defeat easily. > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a few > moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. So, my > fish had a near death experience. > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of money to > maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will probably > die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got one and it > killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time with a disease it > brought in. > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > LinS > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50724	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

My betta's are all in larger than 1 gallon containers. And sometimes I feel sorry for the "unlucky one" that gets the gallon and a half (or so) glass cookie jar. To me I think they should have the largest size tank possible, and anything smaller than 10 gallons is a waste of an aquarium ;) LOL. Some day I will upgrade him to a 10 gallon tank of his own (a betta palace! LOL). Amber On 3/8/2011 12:57 PM, tiggernut24@... wrote: > > Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small > tank where you can watch him. > > Yours, > Villandra Thorsdottir > Austin, Texas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@... > <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com>> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > Hi Linda, > > I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing > to be > clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that Bettas do > not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with you on this > wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish would not > thrive > in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd > have > to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, > Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized > aquarium > as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. > That > they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be > offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic > requirements for living. > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another > in a > 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing > fine. But > they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a > small > aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of > our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them > the best > environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be > kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can > breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of > life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why > wouldn't > you want to give them the best surroundings you can? > > Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way off > base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to 90 o, > but > why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can tolerate? They > breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for general > maintenance, > they will do much better at, at least 74 o, rather than a low of 70 o. > > I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water > anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that > may > not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have long > switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a month, will > still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm glad to see > that you > can still allow your change water to sit overnight to allow the > chlorine to > off-gas, but this will not work for everyone. > > Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be > subject to > complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in aquariums > with > filters, they would not need complete water changes. To use a lettuce > leaf > as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria bloom if it's kept > in the > bowl for any length of time, as this is a method that's used to start an > infusoria culture. Any new water that you add to their container when > doing > a partial water change should not be that much warmer than the water they > are in. The new water should always be at the same temperature as their > container water. > > Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can > see each > other constantly. They will be in a constant state of excitement from > receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, which is not > giving them > the best quality of life as they need periods of relaxation. > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain > irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your > getting > away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for > the > next hobbyist. > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small > tank may > be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists > having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass > vases are still too small though. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> > wrote: > > > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to > witness the > > fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta fish. > > The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > learning > > ever since. > > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to Topfin > > Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much fun > to feed > > the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each time. They > will go > > right to the pellet and you can see him eat and spit it out several > times. > > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. They > > are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > witnessed > > a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a female when > I put > > her in his water. I always thought it was the other way around and was > > concentrating on protecting her if something happened. She instantly > flew > > to him and pulled off one of his gills, and I got to see him die for a > > week. I kept her until her time came, but didn't like her too well > after > > that. > > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a > 1 1/2 > > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well > > for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin Water > > Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They come > from > > warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your house is > kept > > warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a bucket of > water to > > sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the chlorine disipates > > naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use the water without > adding > > chemicals this way. > > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this conditioner > > lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You will > > see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores carry > > them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I see them > > going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. also you can > > use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can decorate the bowl > > really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a leaf every once > > inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off when I change their > > bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on these, or you can > use a > > (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those curly ones, they love > those and > > they last a long time also. > > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of mindset, > > knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just happiest > > alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are social > animals. I > > do think they know when another fish is close-by and will flare and be > > pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the other fish to fight. > > Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest about that. > > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side by > > side container where they can see each other through the plastic. It is > > plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the glass > vases > > overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > water, > > and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked about) > > which lets them go a few days without a complete change of water. > You have > > to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth and go to the > bottom > > of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to burn the fish. > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > > pretty. > > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > Tatoo) > > had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and I > put him > > in a container that must have had something in it that irritated him. I > > saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long he died. I was > about > > to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just am one that does not > > accept defeat easily. > > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > few > > moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. So, my > > fish had a near death experience. > > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of > money to > > maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment > if you > > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > probably > > die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got one > and it > > killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time with a > disease it > > brought in. > > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > > LinS > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50725	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Water -- WAS RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish

Ray brings up a good point about water. Water is a very complex subject and we tend to gloss over it quite a bit, and I'll be no exception here, as I just wish to make a few points about water, then crawl back into my hole, maybe to curl up with a book on water <g.>. Yes, whole books have been written about water, but they tend to be hard going and, at least, a basic knowledge of chemistry is needed to proceed through them. Across the country water varies quite a bit. Many people have a municipal water supply, where water is delivered to the premises at a slight, or, maybe, not so slight fee. Some suppliers are private concerns, while others are owned by the local government. This water is modified from its raw form by the addition of chemicals meant to serve specific purposes. In such a system, water pipes are the life blood of water delivery, so, more attention is paid to maintaining the pipe (water mains) system than one would suspect. If the water is acidic, a chemical will be added to raise the pH and, incidentally, coat the inside of the pipe to prolong the life of the pipe. Acidic water will gradually wear the pipe away causing leaks and making the pipe easier to break. Fluoride is another substance that is added, but, generally, has not been implicated in any fish deterioration or disease. Substances are added to kill bacteria that may be present in water that may be harmful to humans. Fish are affected by these substances. The two major ones that are added are chlorine and chloramine. Chlorine is easy to handle. Let the water sit for 24 hours in an open container, and most of the chlorine will outgas into the atmosphere. A quicker way to handle it is to add some sodium thiosulfate (pentahydrate), the main ingredient of chlorine remover compounds found in your LFS. Chloramine is an entirely different story. As Ray mentions, it does not outgas. It remains in the water. You do need a chloramine remover to treat your water to remove it. Chloramine is composed of chlorine and ammonia. Both these components are harmful to fish, each in its own way. Not every chloramine remover works well, so stick with brands that are recommended here. One thing that needs to be watched is that towns supplied by water providers often use water from several different sources. Normally, these sources are not mixed together, but water is drawn from different sources depending on the amount available from a source, the time of the year and other such factors. Each source can, and will, have different properties. The pH could be higher or lower, the amount of chemicals added to produce a uniform product can be different. Sources can be wells, springs, rivers, lakes, or reservoirs. Unless your water supplier announces such changes, regular testing of water is advised. Testing can detect changes in water supplies. Get to know the web site of your water supplier. There is much information posted there about the water, including annual reports required by the federal government. Depending on how forthcoming your supplier is, you may find notices of changing water supplies here. My water supplier gave several months notice, particularly directed at aquarium keepers, of the forthcoming change from chlorine to chloramine. They also let you know, on the web site of impending changes in the water source. Another large group of people use well water. There are several types of well, open or closed. Open wells are open to the atmosphere and many people will conjure a well with a wall around it, a roof over it, and a mechanism to draw water from it, typically a bucket on a rope. Pause here for a moment to enjoy the thought. Other forms of this kind of well may be housed in a building, usually referred to as a well house (imagine that creative title), or it may be covered with a wood or concrete cover. It may have a pump in the form of a handled pump (keep a bucket and rope handy as you may need to prime the pump. (There is a well house with a handled pump on my parent's property, so I know, though it was never used much.) You have your closed wells, in which there is no opening to the atmosphere. These can be shallow (as with the open wells--they are all shallow wells), deep, or artesian wells. The water from wells is what it is. Nothing is added by man to it (on purpose, but various compounds can work their way through the earth to the depth of the water table and contaminate the aquifer). This water should be tested regularly, mainly for pH and nitrates and nitrites. Normally, this water can be used straight from the tap with no treatment. That should be enough for now. If you have questions to ask, feel free, and I will answer them if I can. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 2:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish Hi Linda, I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements for living. I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to give them the best surroundings you can? Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, rather than a low of 70 o. I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for everyone. Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that you add to their container when doing a partial water change should not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water should always be at the same temperature as their container water. Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods of relaxation. For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the next hobbyist. BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass vases are still too small though. Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50726	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Hi Amber, No problem: I have to assume that you never saw my post, but at least your message shows consideration and courtesy for a similar message that was posted before yours -- which I appreciate. We can't always be expected to look for previous posts when in the excitement of responding to a different message with our own opposing message we overlook any others at the time. I'm glad you replied to Villandra with your view. If you didn't, I would have. At least it supports what I am trying to say, and that is to not sacrifice space and quality of life for a fish just so the hobbyist can better watch their fish in the confines of a smaller container. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ooops sorry Ray, just saw your post after I replied to Linda's. Guess I > should look ahead at the other posts more often ;) LOL. > > Amber > > > > > On 3/8/2011 10:52 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing > > to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that > > Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with > > you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish > > would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think > > differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you > > made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their > > best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not > > much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has > > little to do with the size container they can be offered when one > > wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements > > for living. > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another > > in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing > > fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container > > such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of > > life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to > > it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their > > best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as > > cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does > > not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just > > being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to > > give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way > > off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to > > 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can > > tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for > > general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, > > rather than a low of 70 o. > > > > I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water > > anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that > > may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have > > long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a > > month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm > > glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit > > overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for > > everyone. > > > > Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be > > subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in > > aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To > > use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria > > bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a > > method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that > > you add to their container when doing a partial water change should > > not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water > > should always be at the same temperature as their container water. > > > > Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can > > see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of > > excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, > > which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods > > of relaxation. > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just > > plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in > > your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work > > out well for the next hobbyist. > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small > > tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of > > several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them > > besides. The glass vases are still too small though. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to > > witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > > > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta > > fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > > learning ever since. > > > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to > > Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much > > fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each > > time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and > > spit it out several times. > > > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. > > They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > > witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a > > female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other > > way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something > > happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, > > and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, > > but didn't like her too well after that. > > > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > > doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin > > Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They > > come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your > > house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a > > bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the > > chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use > > the water without adding chemicals this way. > > > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this > > conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > > > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You > > will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores > > carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I > > see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. > > also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can > > decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a > > leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off > > when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on > > these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those > > curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. > > > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of > > mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just > > happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are > > social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and > > will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the > > other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest > > about that. > > > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side > > by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. > > It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the > > glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > > burn the fish. > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see > > something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the > > bowl really pretty. > > > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > > Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and > > I put him in a container that must have had something in it that > > irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long > > he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just > > am one that does not accept defeat easily. > > > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > > few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. > > So, my fish had a near death experience. > > > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of > > money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment > > if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > > probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got > > one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time > > with a disease it brought in. > > > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > > > LinS > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50727	From: Ray	Date: 3/8/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Villandra, By the appearance of your message -- unless I'm reading it wrong -- it seems to me that you advocate keeping Bettas in small containers such as what Linda is using, just so that you can watch them better. An adequately sized aquarium would be much better for a Betta to live out its life in, rather than a small 1/2 gallon bowl -- and such an aquarium needn't be much more than 2 1/2 gallons. We all know that since Bettas can breath air, that they can live in a teacup. We also know that as long as a person can breath fresh air (and food & water), that they can live in a closet -- but would you want to live in a closet? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small > tank where you can watch him. > > Yours, > Villandra Thorsdottir > Austin, Texas > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > > Hi Linda, > > There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive > in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have > to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, > Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium > as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That > they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be > offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic > requirements for living. > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a > 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But > they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small > aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of > our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best > environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be > kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can > breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of > life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't > you want to give them the best surroundings you can? > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain > irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting > away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the > next hobbyist. > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may > be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists > having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass > vases are still too small though. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> wrote: > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 > > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > > pretty. > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you > > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. > > LinS > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50728	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Hi Amber, Undoubtedly, this was the message you were referring to when you said that you should have looked ahead for other posts, even though your other message on adequate tank space vs the small glass-cookie-jar-like container also was previously mentioned. No biggy, and that's perfectly understandable and welcomed (on both accounts < g >). I agree that the water temperature should be matched as closely as possible, but that being within 2 degrees as you said is quite exceptable since this change would be very minimal when doing our more normal 25% PWC's (or even 33% PWC's). Thinking of it this way, even if the temp difference were 2 o, and even if one were to change out 50% of the water, upon mixing these two water quantities (the new water and the tank water) would experience a change of only 1 o. A 25% PWC with a 2 o difference would only have the impact of changing the tank water 1/2 o. It's still way beyond me why a hobbyist would want to use hot water when making a partial water change -- and one that is 50% of the water change in addition to its being hot. Apparently, from what Linda has stated, so hot that one must be careful not to burn the fish, so it must be added slowly. Still, this container of water must be getting quite a large rise in temperature (unless there's something I'm missing, that hasn't been stated), for which I see absolutely no purpose, unneedingly risking the fish's life each time, but fortunate just enough that the fish have endured it up until now. While we all know that Bettas can breathe air from the atmosphere, not only is such a large temperature difference extremely stressful for any fish, but hot water contains extremely little dissolved oxygen which is needed for any fish. Bettas may be able to breathe air, but this is an auxiliary method of obtaining oxygen. It does not replace the main method of obtaining oxygen through the gills. If it were a replacement for obtaining oxygen, evolution would have seen this as such an advancement in physiology as to have found gills for this Species to be redundant and unnecessary, and may well have reduced or eliminated their gills to a vestigal organ. Bettas still definitely need a fair quantity of dissolved oxygen in the water to live, albeit not as high of a level as most other fishes. Hot water contains virtually no oxygen (or an extremely minute quantity of the gas, depending on the actual temperature). Bettas subjected to change of an extreme of warm water having little if any oxygen would be working overtime at the surface after such a water change were done, needing to use their labyrinth breathing apparatus extensively just to keep alive -- and lucky to stay alive in doing so. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > It's better to use water the temp of the water in the bowl, rather than > stressing the fish to adjust to a new temperature. Sometimes changing > the temp too much can make a fish sick and even die (if it's too drastic > of a change). I just match the water within 2 degrees at most. > > Amber > > > > > On 3/8/2011 7:09 AM, LindaS wrote: > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > > doing well for about a year now. > > > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > > burn the fish. > > LinS > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50729	From: pam andress	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

I'm so GLAD you replied to her! I personally wouldn't have been so nice. Putting HOT water in a bowl! That is ridiculas! Those poor fish. Then saying they shouldn't be put in aquariums! I had mine in 55 gal and under aquariums. As long as the flow of water was not strong, they were fine. Some people really need to go to classes and learn more about this hobby or their fish. TG for this site amd I'm glad the first lady is asking for help. Sorry I forgot names and I have some birds yelling in my ears at the moment that I'm about to yell at. Man they can get loud. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: sevenspringss@... Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 05:15:18 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish Hi Amber, No problem: I have to assume that you never saw my post, but at least your message shows consideration and courtesy for a similar message that was posted before yours -- which I appreciate. We can't always be expected to look for previous posts when in the excitement of responding to a different message with our own opposing message we overlook any others at the time. I'm glad you replied to Villandra with your view. If you didn't, I would have. At least it supports what I am trying to say, and that is to not sacrifice space and quality of life for a fish just so the hobbyist can better watch their fish in the confines of a smaller container. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ooops sorry Ray, just saw your post after I replied to Linda's. Guess I > should look ahead at the other posts more often ;) LOL. > > Amber > > > > > On 3/8/2011 10:52 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing > > to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that > > Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with > > you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish > > would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think > > differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you > > made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their > > best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not > > much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has > > little to do with the size container they can be offered when one > > wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements > > for living. > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another > > in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing > > fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container > > such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of > > life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to > > it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their > > best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as > > cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does > > not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just > > being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to > > give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way > > off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to > > 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can > > tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for > > general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, > > rather than a low of 70 o. > > > > I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water > > anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that > > may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have > > long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a > > month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm > > glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit > > overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for > > everyone. > > > > Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be > > subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in > > aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To > > use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria > > bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a > > method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that > > you add to their container when doing a partial water change should > > not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water > > should always be at the same temperature as their container water. > > > > Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can > > see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of > > excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, > > which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods > > of relaxation. > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just > > plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in > > your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work > > out well for the next hobbyist. > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small > > tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of > > several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them > > besides. The glass vases are still too small though. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to > > witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > > > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta > > fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > > learning ever since. > > > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to > > Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much > > fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each > > time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and > > spit it out several times. > > > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. > > They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > > witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a > > female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other > > way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something > > happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, > > and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, > > but didn't like her too well after that. > > > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > > doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin > > Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They > > come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your > > house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a > > bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the > > chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use > > the water without adding chemicals this way. > > > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this > > conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > > > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You > > will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores > > carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I > > see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. > > also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can > > decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a > > leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off > > when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on > > these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those > > curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. > > > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of > > mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just > > happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are > > social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and > > will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the > > other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest > > about that. > > > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side > > by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. > > It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the > > glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > > burn the fish. > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see > > something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the > > bowl really pretty. > > > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > > Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and > > I put him in a container that must have had something in it that > > irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long > > he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just > > am one that does not accept defeat easily. > > > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > > few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. > > So, my fish had a near death experience. > > > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of > > money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment > > if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > > probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got > > one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time > > with a disease it brought in. > > > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > > > LinS > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50730	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

There has been a lot of great advice given in this thread, except that from Linda. There are just a couple of things I noticed were not mentioned that I think should be added to the info you've been given. 1st, on the topic of water conditioners and why they are needed. While Steve and Ray have both broken this down nicely, neither of them mentioned the presence of heavy metals, and they can be found in both municipal water supplies or private wells. Water conditioners do the job of neutralizing these heavy metals (which are toxic to fish). Skipping water conditioner can mean the difference between a healthy fish or a poisoned one. That is not something I would consider optional. The 2nd thing I'd like to add is that while there isn't really such a thing as too small for a betta (as long as they are kept wet they can breathe and "live") but of course, that is not something I would ever suggest for a long term environment... but there is such a thing as too big/deep. Because bettas breathe air their containers/aquariums should be kept shallow. This is most important for an older betta who won't swim as well as in his youth, or in a sick betta who may not be able to reach the surface easily. It is possible to drown a betta if the aquarium is too deep. The ranges offered by the others, 2.5 - 10 gallons are ideal in size for any betta. In a 10 gallon tank, when a betta reaches old age, the water level can be lowered to make it easier to reach the surface for air without having to give up area/swimming space that the fish needs to be happy, and if the betta is the only fish in the tank, this also provided plenty of water for the waste levels to never reach a dangerous level with regular maintenance. I was a bit disturbed by the info that Linda put out here for this thread, especially that of the hot and cold water uses. Regardless of the fears in burning or freezing the fish, there is still temperature shock to deal with, and that in itself can be deadly. Fish care cold blooded animals and their body temperature fluctuates with that of the water around them. Bodily organs require a specific temp range in order to function, and when that temperature changes too drastically the organs experience shock, and stop functioning properly. I would have to assume, from a medical standpoint, that the temp change that "saved" Linda's betta did much the same thing that a shock treatment would do to a person. The sudden extreme change in temp very likely shocked the organs, in particular the heart, which may have revived a near dead fish. The chances of that happening are about 1 in a million and not something that should be tried except by accident. While the shock may have restarted a weak heart or other organ, it also may have caused long term damage to any/all organs, which means for an overall shorter lifespan for the fish and potential for suffering during the rest of its natural life. I spent about 6 yrs breeding betta splendens. They are great fish, easy to keep, very tolerant of "mistakes" (within reason) and dirty water (because they are air breathers) and small containers when needed. They are also much more tolerant of stress than many common aquarium fish. (Some of my bettas traveled with me, went to work and back with me on a daily basis, etc... and were just fine with that). They are a great beginner fish, but there is a limit on what they can handle and why, and how much of that makes them "happy" or causes suffering. One last note about the odor in the water... Carbon in a filter will remove colors and odors from the tank water. Moving the betta to a small filtered aquarium makes this easy to eliminate. The odor is likely caused by a combination of things, including waste from the fish, waste from the food, and even things in the air that can settle into aquarium (or fish bowl/vase) water without a cover. For your water to foul to a point of strong odor after only 2 days tells me there is surely too much of something going into the water, and because bettas put out such a small amount of waste, that narrows it down to the food. Not all fish food is healthy for bettas, nor is it all palatable. Many bettas never learn to accept flake foods, even those made for bettas. They prefer the betta pellets. There is a wide variety of betta pellets on the market and most of these are a healthy blend of nutritious foods the betta needs for energy and organ function. By nature, betta splendens is an insectivore. This means they eat insects for their main diet. This is a diet much higher in protein content than the average tropical fish flake foods, but also the betta pellet blends help to control fat content without sacrificing the needed protein. Most fish foods begin to break down in the water once saturated, some even before fully saturated... which means they pollute the water that quickly. The longer it takes a fish to eat the food the more polluted it makes the water. As the others suggested, a few pellets at a time is the best feeding method, but watching to be sure the fish ate all of the food is just as important as the amount or timing of the feedings. Some bettas will take 2 pellets at a time and be satisfied for 1/2 the day and will take 2 - 3 more again at night. Some bettas will take 5 - 7 pellets in one sitting and be content until the next day. This is part of the fun of getting to know your fish and his personal preferences and habits. Each fish is an individual and should be treated as such. I wish you luck with your betta. If you need further help you are in the right place, as there are a number of good betta advisers in this group. Please don't be afraid to ask for clarification on any of the info already offered. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Villandra, > > By the appearance of your message -- unless I'm reading it wrong -- it seems to me that you advocate keeping Bettas in small containers such as what Linda is using, just so that you can watch them better. An adequately sized aquarium would be much better for a Betta to live out its life in, rather than a small 1/2 gallon bowl -- and such an aquarium needn't be much more than 2 1/2 gallons. We all know that since Bettas can breath air, that they can live in a teacup. We also know that as long as a person can breath fresh air (and food & water), that they can live in a closet -- but would you want to live in a closet? > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small > > tank where you can watch him. > > > > Yours, > > Villandra Thorsdottir > > Austin, Texas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive > > in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have > > to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, > > Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium > > as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That > > they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be > > offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic > > requirements for living. > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a > > 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But > > they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small > > aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of > > our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best > > environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be > > kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can > > breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of > > life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't > > you want to give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain > > irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting > > away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the > > next hobbyist. > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may > > be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists > > having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass > > vases are still too small though. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> wrote: > > > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > > > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 > > > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > > > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > > > pretty. > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you > > > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. > > > LinS > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50731	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Hi Pam, In defense of the poor fish I could not pass by her post without replying. I still can't understand how anyone would think it perfectly alright to refill half of a container having a fish with another half of hot water. I'm at a complete loss as to what they are thinking when doing this. While we don't know the exact temperature of this new water, it's obviously much higher even than what would be considered as very warm, since it was stated that care must be used in adding the water more slowly to avoid burning the fish. Fish cannot be subjected to hot showers as can people -- they must be kept within a certain temperature range. By a procedure such as this, this in itself shows that such hobbyists know very little about the actual care of fish. One cannot just "wing it," with whatever care we choose to subject a fish to, if we really don't actually know. When in doubt (and if this is not cause for doubt, I can't think of very many other errors in fish maintenance that would cause doubt before this), an inexperienced hobbyist should read a good basic fish book -- even if they have to take one out from their library if they can't afford one. Proper fish maintenance requires some knowledge, and if one chooses to maintain their fish in this manner (of using hot water on them) they really should not have fish unless they first learn how to properly take care of them. After reading that sort of a water changing procedure, it would not surprise me if I then read of a hobbyist adding Lysol or bleach (or perhaps Mr. Clean) to the tank with fish in it because they wanted to clean the inside glass!!! Yes, the first person (Tori) at least asked for suggestions, perhaps as she wanted to learn more. This was one main reason why I had to reply to all that improper "advice" so that others here would not go by accepting it. I'm glad Tori found this site, and just like you, I'm glad we have this List to be able to offer sound advice -- but if these other members' fish are to receive proper care, they should hopefully be willing to learn from what all of us recommend and not continue to do as they please just because their fish are somehow still miraculously still alive despite their best efforts to kill them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I'm so GLAD you replied to her! I personally wouldn't have been so nice. Putting HOT water in a bowl! That is ridiculas! Those poor fish. Then saying they shouldn't be put in aquariums! I had mine in 55 gal and under aquariums. As long as the flow of water was not strong, they were fine. Some people really need to go to classes and learn more about this hobby or their fish. TG for this site amd I'm glad the first lady is asking for help. Sorry I forgot names and I have some birds yelling in my ears at the moment that I'm about to yell at. Man they can get loud. > > Pam > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: sevenspringss@... > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 05:15:18 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > > > > > > Hi Amber, > > No problem: I have to assume that you never saw my post, but at least your message shows consideration and courtesy for a similar message that was posted before yours -- which I appreciate. We can't always be expected to look for previous posts when in the excitement of responding to a different message with our own opposing message we overlook any others at the time. I'm glad you replied to Villandra with your view. If you didn't, I would have. At least it supports what I am trying to say, and that is to not sacrifice space and quality of life for a fish just so the hobbyist can better watch their fish in the confines of a smaller container. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Ooops sorry Ray, just saw your post after I replied to Linda's. Guess I > > should look ahead at the other posts more often ;) LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 3/8/2011 10:52 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > > > I enjoyed your narrative immensely, but there are a few things needing > > > to be clarified or corrected. I don't understand your statement that > > > Bettas do not do well in aquariums, and would have to disagree with > > > you on this wholeheartedly. There is no reason on earth why these fish > > > would not thrive in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think > > > differently. I'd have to say in response to such a statement as you > > > made, that to the contrary, Bettas or any other fish will do their > > > best in an adequately sized aquarium as opposed to a container not > > > much larger than what will sustain him. That they can breath air has > > > little to do with the size container they can be offered when one > > > wants to give them more than will just meet their basic requirements > > > for living. > > > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another > > > in a 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing > > > fine. But they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container > > > such as a small aquarium where they'd have much better quality of > > > life. Isn't that one of our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to > > > it that we give them the best environment possible to ensure their > > > best quality of life? Bettas can be kept in containers as small as > > > cups for well over a year, since they can breath air, but this does > > > not mean they will be given the best quality of life; they are just > > > being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't you want to > > > give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > > > Your recommendation on temperatures to be supplied for Bettas is way > > > off base, as 70 o is far from being warm. Yes they can stand 68 o to > > > 90 o, but why subject them to near the lowest temperature they can > > > tolerate? They breed at a minimum of 78 o, (preferably, 80 o), but for > > > general maintenance, they will do much better at, at least 74 o, > > > rather than a low of 70 o. > > > > > > I need to point out that not everyone just has chlorine in their water > > > anymore. Please do not recommend something that may work for you, that > > > may not necessarily work for others. Many public water suppiers have > > > long switched over the chloramine which, if kept in a bucket for a > > > month, will still contain chloramine as it does not dissipate. I'm > > > glad to see that you can still allow your change water to sit > > > overnight to allow the chlorine to off-gas, but this will not work for > > > everyone. > > > > > > Along these same lines, no fish -- including Bettas -- should be > > > subject to complete water changes every few days. If your fish were in > > > aquariums with filters, they would not need complete water changes. To > > > use a lettuce leaf as a rest area for a Betta is to invite a bacteria > > > bloom if it's kept in the bowl for any length of time, as this is a > > > method that's used to start an infusoria culture. Any new water that > > > you add to their container when doing a partial water change should > > > not be that much warmer than the water they are in. The new water > > > should always be at the same temperature as their container water. > > > > > > Bettas should not be kept in side-by-side containers where they can > > > see each other constantly. They will be in a constant state of > > > excitement from receiving the stimuli from their neighboring Betta, > > > which is not giving them the best quality of life as they need periods > > > of relaxation. > > > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just > > > plain irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in > > > your getting away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work > > > out well for the next hobbyist. > > > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small > > > tank may be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of > > > several hobbyists having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them > > > besides. The glass vases are still too small though. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I found this too funny, except for the little girl who had to > > > witness the fish's demise, and of course poor Frankie. > > > > I told my husband one day to please pick me up one of those Betta > > > fish. The bluest one he could find. Reluctantly, he did, and I've been > > > learning ever since. > > > > First, I suspect you are feeding the fish flake food. Change to > > > Topfin Color Enhancing Betta Bits which are tiny pellets, and so much > > > fun to feed the fish once or twice a day maybe three pellets each > > > time. They will go right to the pellet and you can see him eat and > > > spit it out several times. > > > > Second, get over the fact that this little guy is not happy alone. > > > They are made to be 'alone'. Believe me, they are happy that way. I > > > witnessed a long term beloved fish being immediately attacked by a > > > female when I put her in his water. I always thought it was the other > > > way around and was concentrating on protecting her if something > > > happened. She instantly flew to him and pulled off one of his gills, > > > and I got to see him die for a week. I kept her until her time came, > > > but didn't like her too well after that. > > > > The males are the pretty ones with the long tales. > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, > > > and you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in > > > a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both > > > doing well for about a year now. DON'T USE UNTREATED WATER. Use Topfin > > > Water Conditioner that conditions the water instantly for them. They > > > come from warm climates and like the temp. about 70 degrees. If your > > > house is kept warm, that should be fine. In the summer, I just put a > > > bucket of water to sit overnight for a full 24 hours at least, and the > > > chlorine disipates naturally. It is warm in the summer and I can use > > > the water without adding chemicals this way. > > > > It's better for the fish and cheaper for me (although this > > > conditioner lasts a long time and is not expensive at all) > > > > Third. Have lots of things in the bowl for them to 'rest' on. You > > > will see them resting on plastic colorful things (some dollar stores > > > carry them,) I put natural rocks on the bottom they seem to like, I > > > see them going after some food residue in the rocks during the day. > > > also you can use glass squares you can get at Michaels, you can > > > decorate the bowl really pretty. I grow a few Bamboo plants and take a > > > leaf every once inawhile that lasts for months. I just rinse it off > > > when I change their bowls, usually once a week. They like to rest on > > > these, or you can use a (organic) lettuce leaf also, one of those > > > curly ones, they love those and they last a long time also. > > > > Fourth. It is you not them that has to do a paradime shift of > > > mindset, knowing they are happiest when they are alone. They are just > > > happiest alone, and it is us that think other wise, since we are > > > social animals. I do think they know when another fish is close-by and > > > will flare and be pretty for you, but the flare is a warning to the > > > other fish to fight. Just know they are happy alone, and you can rest > > > about that. > > > > I have lately seen a small fish container at Petsmart that is a side > > > by side container where they can see each other through the plastic. > > > It is plastic though, and it would probably not be as pretty as the > > > glass vases overtime as I think it would get murky looking. > > > > Also, if I'm not able to do a complete change, I will half dump the > > > water, and put hot treated water (with the water conditioner I talked > > > about) which lets them go a few days without a complete change of > > > water. You have to put it in very slowly, they will feel the warmth > > > and go to the bottom of the bowl until you are done. You don't want to > > > burn the fish. > > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see > > > something live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the > > > bowl really pretty. > > > > Also, my Tatoo (he has a square mark on his side, so, I named him > > > Tatoo) had a near death experience once. It was during a cleaning, and > > > I put him in a container that must have had something in it that > > > irritated him. I saw him moving in short spurts, and in not too long > > > he died. I was about to put him down the garbage disposal, but I just > > > am one that does not accept defeat easily. > > > > So, I put him in the fishnet in cold treated water and jiggled him a > > > few moments. He came back! Has been happily back for six months now. > > > So, my fish had a near death experience. > > > > Enjoy your fish. They are easy keepers and do not cost a lot of > > > money to maintain. Probably about $15.00 for six months, if that. > > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment > > > if you are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. He does not. And will > > > probably die in one. I thought about getting a snail, until my DIL got > > > one and it killed her whole aquarium, fish they had had a long time > > > with a disease it brought in. > > > > I think I covered everything. LOL! Hope this helps.Enjoy. > > > > LinS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50732	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Dawn, While I did not directly mention heavy metals in my post (the one with the changed subject line), I did it very obliquely cover it in two places. One is in the choice of water conditioners recommended by many people on this list. The two top brands contain EDTA, which sequesters heavy metal ions effectively removing them from consideration. Water conditioners that do not have EDTA as an ingredient do nothing for heavy metals that may be found in water. The other oblique mention is in the perusal of water companies' water reports which come from the company and are also available on their web sites. Water quality is a very large topic. I felt that my post was long enough already and that opening a new facet with it would make it just that much longer. Such a topic can make people's eyes glaze over while reading or listening to it. I could also have covered dissolved gases, changing pH, and a host of other factors that can determine the suitability of water for fishes. I also left the topic open for further discussion by asking for questions at the end. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish There has been a lot of great advice given in this thread, except that from Linda. There are just a couple of things I noticed were not mentioned that I think should be added to the info you've been given. 1st, on the topic of water conditioners and why they are needed. While Steve and Ray have both broken this down nicely, neither of them mentioned the presence of heavy metals, and they can be found in both municipal water supplies or private wells. Water conditioners do the job of neutralizing these heavy metals (which are toxic to fish). Skipping water conditioner can mean the difference between a healthy fish or a poisoned one. That is not something I would consider optional. The 2nd thing I'd like to add is that while there isn't really such a thing as too small for a betta (as long as they are kept wet they can breathe and "live") but of course, that is not something I would ever suggest for a long term environment... but there is such a thing as too big/deep. Because bettas breathe air their containers/aquariums should be kept shallow. This is most important for an older betta who won't swim as well as in his youth, or in a sick betta who may not be able to reach the surface easily. It is possible to drown a betta if the aquarium is too deep. The ranges offered by the others, 2.5 - 10 gallons are ideal in size for any betta. In a 10 gallon tank, when a betta reaches old age, the water level can be lowered to make it easier to reach the surface for air without having to give up area/swimming space that the fish needs to be happy, and if the betta is the only fish in the tank, this also provided plenty of water for the waste levels to never reach a dangerous level with regular maintenance. I was a bit disturbed by the info that Linda put out here for this thread, especially that of the hot and cold water uses. Regardless of the fears in burning or freezing the fish, there is still temperature shock to deal with, and that in itself can be deadly. Fish care cold blooded animals and their body temperature fluctuates with that of the water around them. Bodily organs require a specific temp range in order to function, and when that temperature changes too drastically the organs experience shock, and stop functioning properly. I would have to assume, from a medical standpoint, that the temp change that "saved" Linda's betta did much the same thing that a shock treatment would do to a person. The sudden extreme change in temp very likely shocked the organs, in particular the heart, which may have revived a near dead fish. The chances of that happening are about 1 in a million and not something that should be tried except by accident. While the shock may have restarted a weak heart or other organ, it also may have caused long term damage to any/all organs, which means for an overall shorter lifespan for the fish and potential for suffering during the rest of its natural life. I spent about 6 yrs breeding betta splendens. They are great fish, easy to keep, very tolerant of "mistakes" (within reason) and dirty water (because they are air breathers) and small containers when needed. They are also much more tolerant of stress than many common aquarium fish. (Some of my bettas traveled with me, went to work and back with me on a daily basis, etc... and were just fine with that). They are a great beginner fish, but there is a limit on what they can handle and why, and how much of that makes them "happy" or causes suffering. One last note about the odor in the water... Carbon in a filter will remove colors and odors from the tank water. Moving the betta to a small filtered aquarium makes this easy to eliminate. The odor is likely caused by a combination of things, including waste from the fish, waste from the food, and even things in the air that can settle into aquarium (or fish bowl/vase) water without a cover. For your water to foul to a point of strong odor after only 2 days tells me there is surely too much of something going into the water, and because bettas put out such a small amount of waste, that narrows it down to the food. Not all fish food is healthy for bettas, nor is it all palatable. Many bettas never learn to accept flake foods, even those made for bettas. They prefer the betta pellets. There is a wide variety of betta pellets on the market and most of these are a healthy blend of nutritious foods the betta needs for energy and organ function. By nature, betta splendens is an insectivore. This means they eat insects for their main diet. This is a diet much higher in protein content than the average tropical fish flake foods, but also the betta pellet blends help to control fat content without sacrificing the needed protein. Most fish foods begin to break down in the water once saturated, some even before fully saturated... which means they pollute the water that quickly. The longer it takes a fish to eat the food the more polluted it makes the water. As the others suggested, a few pellets at a time is the best feeding method, but watching to be sure the fish ate all of the food is just as important as the amount or timing of the feedings. Some bettas will take 2 pellets at a time and be satisfied for 1/2 the day and will take 2 - 3 more again at night. Some bettas will take 5 - 7 pellets in one sitting and be content until the next day. This is part of the fun of getting to know your fish and his personal preferences and habits. Each fish is an individual and should be treated as such. I wish you luck with your betta. If you need further help you are in the right place, as there are a number of good betta advisers in this group. Please don't be afraid to ask for clarification on any of the info already offered. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Villandra, > > By the appearance of your message -- unless I'm reading it wrong -- it seems to me that you advocate keeping Bettas in small containers such as what Linda is using, just so that you can watch them better. An adequately sized aquarium would be much better for a Betta to live out its life in, rather than a small 1/2 gallon bowl -- and such an aquarium needn't be much more than 2 1/2 gallons. We all know that since Bettas can breath air, that they can live in a teacup. We also know that as long as a person can breath fresh air (and food & water), that they can live in a closet -- but would you want to live in a closet? > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small > > tank where you can watch him. > > > > Yours, > > Villandra Thorsdottir > > Austin, Texas > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive > > in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have > > to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, > > Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium > > as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That > > they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be > > offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic > > requirements for living. > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a > > 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But > > they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small > > aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of > > our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best > > environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be > > kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can > > breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of > > life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't > > you want to give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain > > irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting > > away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the > > next hobbyist. > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may > > be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists > > having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass > > vases are still too small though. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> wrote: > > > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > > > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 > > > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > > > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > > > pretty. > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you > > > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. > > > LinS > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50733	From: Ray	Date: 3/9/2011
Subject: Re: Frankie The Fish

Hi Dawn, Extremely well done -- EXCELLENT !!! Noticed you've taken up where everyone else left off. I can only follow up on one point of which we are all actually in doubt, and that is the distinct type of odor that has been emanating every couple of days, from these small containers of Linda's. While carbon in the filter will remove odors from the water, we would not want to mask something being generated by a cause serious enough to need immediate attention, which may allow a potentially harmful situation to perpetuate if not attended to. Without having the advantage of smelling just what this odor is like (or, it may not be too advantagous < g >), just as you suspect, I too believe there is too much of something going into the water -- and that, being food. Many beginner hobbyists just do not know how much to feed a fish, and they persist in overfeeding even when their nose tells them something is wrong -- but they don't tie the two together to ever learn it's their overfeeding that's causing the very problem they despise -- the awful foul smell of rotting food in the small container of water which comes back all too soon when the poor feeding regimen is disregarded and continued daily. Before going any further in this thread, I think this is a good opportunity to let less learned hobbyists such as Linda know that we are not posting these messages to downgrade her in any way, nor to discredit her, as this would surely not serve a purpose. Our aim is to fill her in on proper fish care, since her methods are certainly far from optimum. As can be seen by the replies, members Haecklers, Jessica, Amber (Moderator), \\Steve// (Moderator), Dawn and myself have all taken measures to correct Linda's somewhat less than ideal methods of fishkeeping, which we all hope she would heed. Just as Dawn has done, I also have bred Bettas for many years (at least 10), and only got away from them as their time requirements reached a point beyond my abilities when I need time to devote also to the many other species in my hatchery. Our messages are not merely opinions, but they are the result of many years of experience and learning about fish. All totalled between us all, there must be many decades of hands on experience that we can offer Linda (and are trying to do in these messages), in hopes to see her succeed before she experiences failure with her fish. Whether she thinks she is doing fine in her fish maintenance methods or not, I sincerely hope that she might concede to the fact that her methods leave a lot to be desired in keeping fish alive and healthy even though she has been lucky enough up until now to have fish stay alive for her in spite of the unintentionally rather poor ways of handling fish. We are here at her disposal if she wants to learn; in the meantime, I'd recommend reading a good book on basics of fishkeeping, such as the Baesch Atlas Volume One (there are other good books out there as well), since fish maintenance is more than just plopping fish in a small container of water. For Tori, if you need any assistance at all, or other questions answered, feel free to just ask any one (or all) of us. That's what we're here for. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > There has been a lot of great advice given in this thread, except that from Linda. There are just a couple of things I noticed were not mentioned that I think should be added to the info you've been given. > 1st, on the topic of water conditioners and why they are needed. While Steve and Ray have both broken this down nicely, neither of them mentioned the presence of heavy metals, and they can be found in both municipal water supplies or private wells. Water conditioners do the job of neutralizing these heavy metals (which are toxic to fish). Skipping water conditioner can mean the difference between a healthy fish or a poisoned one. That is not something I would consider optional. > > The 2nd thing I'd like to add is that while there isn't really such a thing as too small for a betta (as long as they are kept wet they can breathe and "live") but of course, that is not something I would ever suggest for a long term environment... but there is such a thing as too big/deep. Because bettas breathe air their containers/aquariums should be kept shallow. This is most important for an older betta who won't swim as well as in his youth, or in a sick betta who may not be able to reach the surface easily. It is possible to drown a betta if the aquarium is too deep. The ranges offered by the others, 2.5 - 10 gallons are ideal in size for any betta. In a 10 gallon tank, when a betta reaches old age, the water level can be lowered to make it easier to reach the surface for air without having to give up area/swimming space that the fish needs to be happy, and if the betta is the only fish in the tank, this also provided plenty of water for the waste levels to never reach a dangerous level with regular maintenance. > > I was a bit disturbed by the info that Linda put out here for this thread, especially that of the hot and cold water uses. Regardless of the fears in burning or freezing the fish, there is still temperature shock to deal with, and that in itself can be deadly. Fish care cold blooded animals and their body temperature fluctuates with that of the water around them. Bodily organs require a specific temp range in order to function, and when that temperature changes too drastically the organs experience shock, and stop functioning properly. I would have to assume, from a medical standpoint, that the temp change that "saved" Linda's betta did much the same thing that a shock treatment would do to a person. The sudden extreme change in temp very likely shocked the organs, in particular the heart, which may have revived a near dead fish. The chances of that happening are about 1 in a million and not something that should be tried except by accident. While the shock may have restarted a weak heart or other organ, it also may have caused long term damage to any/all organs, which means for an overall shorter lifespan for the fish and potential for suffering during the rest of its natural life. > > I spent about 6 yrs breeding betta splendens. They are great fish, easy to keep, very tolerant of "mistakes" (within reason) and dirty water (because they are air breathers) and small containers when needed. They are also much more tolerant of stress than many common aquarium fish. (Some of my bettas traveled with me, went to work and back with me on a daily basis, etc... and were just fine with that). They are a great beginner fish, but there is a limit on what they can handle and why, and how much of that makes them "happy" or causes suffering. > > One last note about the odor in the water... Carbon in a filter will remove colors and odors from the tank water. Moving the betta to a small filtered aquarium makes this easy to eliminate. The odor is likely caused by a combination of things, including waste from the fish, waste from the food, and even things in the air that can settle into aquarium (or fish bowl/vase) water without a cover. For your water to foul to a point of strong odor after only 2 days tells me there is surely too much of something going into the water, and because bettas put out such a small amount of waste, that narrows it down to the food. Not all fish food is healthy for bettas, nor is it all palatable. Many bettas never learn to accept flake foods, even those made for bettas. They prefer the betta pellets. There is a wide variety of betta pellets on the market and most of these are a healthy blend of nutritious foods the betta needs for energy and organ function. By nature, betta splendens is an insectivore. This means they eat insects for their main diet. This is a diet much higher in protein content than the average tropical fish flake foods, but also the betta pellet blends help to control fat content without sacrificing the needed protein. Most fish foods begin to break down in the water once saturated, some even before fully saturated... which means they pollute the water that quickly. The longer it takes a fish to eat the food the more polluted it makes the water. As the others suggested, a few pellets at a time is the best feeding method, but watching to be sure the fish ate all of the food is just as important as the amount or timing of the feedings. Some bettas will take 2 pellets at a time and be satisfied for 1/2 the day and will take 2 - 3 more again at night. Some bettas will take 5 - 7 pellets in one sitting and be content until the next day. This is part of the fun of getting to know your fish and his personal preferences and habits. Each fish is an individual and should be treated as such. > > I wish you luck with your betta. If you need further help you are in the right place, as there are a number of good betta advisers in this group. Please don't be afraid to ask for clarification on any of the info already offered. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Villandra, > > > > By the appearance of your message -- unless I'm reading it wrong -- it seems to me that you advocate keeping Bettas in small containers such as what Linda is using, just so that you can watch them better. An adequately sized aquarium would be much better for a Betta to live out its life in, rather than a small 1/2 gallon bowl -- and such an aquarium needn't be much more than 2 1/2 gallons. We all know that since Bettas can breath air, that they can live in a teacup. We also know that as long as a person can breath fresh air (and food & water), that they can live in a closet -- but would you want to live in a closet? > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > > > Aw, three quarters of the fun of having a betta is having him in a small > > > tank where you can watch him. > > > > > > Yours, > > > Villandra Thorsdottir > > > Austin, Texas > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 1:52 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frankie The Fish > > > > > > > > > Hi Linda, > > > > > > There is no reason on earth why these fish would not thrive > > > in an aquarium and I fail to see why you would think differently. I'd have > > > to say in response to such a statement as you made, that to the contrary, > > > Bettas or any other fish will do their best in an adequately sized aquarium > > > as opposed to a container not much larger than what will sustain him. That > > > they can breath air has little to do with the size container they can be > > > offered when one wants to give them more than will just meet their basic > > > requirements for living. > > > > > > I realize that you are keeping one in a 1 1/2 gallon bowl and another in a > > > 1/2 gallon bowl for more than a year now -- and they may be doing fine. But > > > they could do so much better in a somewhat larger container such as a small > > > aquarium where they'd have much better quality of life. Isn't that one of > > > our purposes in keeping fish, to try to see to it that we give them the best > > > environment possible to ensure their best quality of life? Bettas can be > > > kept in containers as small as cups for well over a year, since they can > > > breath air, but this does not mean they will be given the best quality of > > > life; they are just being sustained -- just being kept alive. Why wouldn't > > > you want to give them the best surroundings you can? > > > > > > For you to say that anyone setting up a Betta in a tank is in for a > > > disappointment and that the fish will probably die in one, is just plain > > > irresponsible. What may work alright for you up until now, in your getting > > > away with more than you realize, may not necessarily work out well for the > > > next hobbyist. > > > > > > BTW, while keeping Bettas happily as the sole inhabitant of a small tank may > > > be one of the few things I agree with you on, I know of several hobbyists > > > having Bettas and having a snail or two in with them besides. The glass > > > vases are still too small though. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> wrote: > > > > > > > > These fish don't do well in aquariums. They are air breathing fish, and > > > > you will see them go up for air every once inawhile. I have one in a 1 1/2 > > > > gallon bowl and one in a half gallon bowl, and they are both doing well for about a year now. > > > > These fish are beautiful and a good way for your child to see something > > > > live, and take care of it in a good way. You can make the bowl really > > > > pretty. > > > > It sounds like you are setting yourself up for more disappointment if you > > > > are thinking he needs a big ol' aquarium. > > > > LinS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50734	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: jellyfish

I am another person entranced by the jellyfish exhibits at "aquariums" and would love to have them at home if I could keep them alive. I only have 2 freshwater tanks at this time. However I remember on a behind the scenes tour hearing that the aquarium kept its tank going by just sending a boat out to the bay to constantly replace the inhabitants as they kicked the bucket. I saw a story about this link below. Anyone have any experience or opinions? Or better companies? http://www.jellyfishart.com/default.asp Diana

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50735	From: haecklers	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish

Not an inexpensive hobby! Have you looked at this link yet? http://www.aquarium-design.com/jellyfish.html It seems informative. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > > I am another person entranced by the jellyfish exhibits at "aquariums" and would love to have them at home if I could keep them alive. I only have 2 freshwater tanks at this time. > > However I remember on a behind the scenes tour hearing that the aquarium kept its tank going by just sending a boat out to the bay to constantly replace the inhabitants as they kicked the bucket. > > I saw a story about this link below. Anyone have any experience or opinions? Or better companies? > > http://www.jellyfishart.com/default.asp > > Diana >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50736	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Introduction

I am new to this group. I am a widow and presently living in Arizona. I have a Betta and a cory catfish. I want more Bettas, but am waiting until I sell this place and move to northern Idaho. Meanwhile I want to learn about tropical fish in general and Bettas, tetras and mollies specifically. I love beautifully decorated aquariums with lovely brilliant fish swimming about. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50737	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 3/10/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Hi Judy, Welcome to the Group -- glad to have you here. With your interests, I'm sure you'll fit right in. Please don't hesitate to ask any specific questions you may have on the fish you're interested in. Bettas and Cory's make good tank mates together. Tetras would be fine with Bettas too, but Mollies usually do best with some salt in their water -- and both Tetras and Bettas do not like a lot of salt, and neither do Cory's. For Mollies, you may want to consider starting another aquarium for them. Let us know how we can help you in your interests. Lots of luck in selling your place, and with your anticipated move to Northern Idaho. It may be beautiful in the northern part of that State, but it's got to be a lot colder than Arizona in the Winter < g >. Ray </HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50738	From: moochyesh@rocketmail.com	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Site launch

I haven't posted in a while but we were able to get all of our samples sent out, we had one person from this group that we sent one to! Over the past few weeks we sent out about 50 samples. More excitingly for us our new website is up and running! you can visit it and check some things out www.aquarisms.com we have a flat rate shipping of 2.50$ no matter how much you order. Thanks so much for expressing interest when we were sending out the samples! (Moderator's Note: For those who are curious, this is not spam even though there's a price (shipping fee) involved here for orders placed on her website. This is a follow-up to Christa's offer of free fish food samples posted on or before 2/28/11, which some of you expressed an interest in. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator).

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50739	From: bill 1433	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Site launch

Folks I don't understand the problem with the www as attached and posted in this mail but if you go to: http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/hstrial-Aquarisms/StoreFront.bok   You will get to the correct site.   Bill --- On Tue, 3/8/11, moochyesh@... <moochyesh@...> wrote: From: moochyesh@... <moochyesh@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Site launch To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 6:51 PM I haven't posted in a while but we were able to get all of our samples sent out, we had one person from this group that we sent one to! Over the past few weeks we sent out about 50 samples. More excitingly for us our new website is up and running! you can visit it and check some things out www.aquarisms.com we have a flat rate shipping of 2.50$ no matter how much you order. Thanks so much for expressing interest when we were sending out the samples! (Moderator's Note:  For those who are curious, this is not spam even though there's a price (shipping fee) involved here for orders placed on her website.  This is a follow-up to Christa's offer of free fish food samples posted on or before 2/28/11, which some of you expressed an interest in.  Ray Wetzel -- Moderator). ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50740	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Thanks Ray, For now I have to be happy with what I have. I am planning a 1300 mile move to northern Idaho. Anybody have any suggestions about move the fish? I have to sell my house first so have a bit of time. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sevenspringss@... Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 12:06 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Introduction Hi Judy, Welcome to the Group -- glad to have you here. With your interests, I'm sure you'll fit right in. Please don't hesitate to ask any specific questions you may have on the fish you're interested in. Bettas and Cory's make good tank mates together. Tetras would be fine with Bettas too, but Mollies usually do best with some salt in their water -- and both Tetras and Bettas do not like a lot of salt, and neither do Cory's. For Mollies, you may want to consider starting another aquarium for them. Let us know how we can help you in your interests. Lots of luck in selling your place, and with your anticipated move to Northern Idaho. It may be beautiful in the northern part of that State, but it's got to be a lot colder than Arizona in the Winter < g >. Ray </HTML> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50741	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: thoughts

our prayers go out to the people of japan....

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50742	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish

The most common jellyfish in the aquarium hobby is called the upside down jellyfish. These are the only ones that are really suitable for an aquarium because they stay small and are strictly filter feeders. Are they easy to keep... no, not for most hobbyists, thus they are not overly popular. The upside down jellyfish requires a bare tank with sand substrate, good circulation, and a lot of fine tuning for the water chemistry to both keep them clean enough to survive and enough food in the water for them to constantly feed. It can be a very difficult balance to reach. The upside down jellyfish is non venomous but human handling easily damages and stresses them. Do not expect a lot of activity out of the upside down jellyfish. Once they find a good spot to sit for feeding, they tend to stay put for most part. They are actually very boring, with no color, no personality, etc. The upside down jellyfish's only potential tank mates are each other, and because of their special needs they do not have a long lifespan. They cannot be crowded in an aquarium mostly because it is impossible to keep them all fed this way. When keeping more than one the balance needed in the water chemistry gets more difficult because they tend to out compete each other for food. I hope this helps answer your questions. If you have more questions, please ask. (oh, and yes, I have experience with these jellyfish) Any of the jellyfish that are venomous (which is most species) tend to be illegal to keep in most places without a special permit, and that permit is not available in all places or easy to obtain. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Not an inexpensive hobby! Have you looked at this link yet? > > http://www.aquarium-design.com/jellyfish.html > > It seems informative. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@> wrote: > > > > I am another person entranced by the jellyfish exhibits at "aquariums" and would love to have them at home if I could keep them alive. I only have 2 freshwater tanks at this time. > > > > However I remember on a behind the scenes tour hearing that the aquarium kept its tank going by just sending a boat out to the bay to constantly replace the inhabitants as they kicked the bucket. > > > > I saw a story about this link below. Anyone have any experience or opinions? Or better companies? > > > > http://www.jellyfishart.com/default.asp > > > > Diana > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50743	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: jellyfish

The moon jellyfish are not legal in all places without a special permit. The reason is the venomous tentacles. Its a good idea to check with the local DNR and also state and city ordinances before attempting to purchase one. Also a good idea to be extremely careful when working around them. Anyone sensitive to their toxin can suffer an extreme amount of pain and potential allergic reactions, which can be deadly. This is not a species I would suggest for a home aquarium. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Not an inexpensive hobby! Have you looked at this link yet? > > http://www.aquarium-design.com/jellyfish.html > > It seems informative. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@> wrote: > > > > I am another person entranced by the jellyfish exhibits at "aquariums" and would love to have them at home if I could keep them alive. I only have 2 freshwater tanks at this time. > > > > However I remember on a behind the scenes tour hearing that the aquarium kept its tank going by just sending a boat out to the bay to constantly replace the inhabitants as they kicked the bucket. > > > > I saw a story about this link below. Anyone have any experience or opinions? Or better companies? > > > > http://www.jellyfishart.com/default.asp > > > > Diana > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50744	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/11/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Welcome to the group. I will 2nd the info Ray provided with one exception... not all tetras are safe to keep with bettas. A heavily decorated aquarium will help to keep the peace with many of the tetra species mixed with a betta, however, beware of serpae tetras, red & blue columbian tetras, congo tetras, blue tetras, and a few of the other more aggressive and nippy species. These are not safe to mix with a betta. They are known to be fin nippers, and a betta with damaged fins is wide open to infection and it can cause difficulty in swimming properly. Good luck with your move! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Moon" <judymoon@...> wrote: > > I am new to this group. I am a widow and presently living in Arizona. > > > > I have a Betta and a cory catfish. I want more Bettas, but am waiting until > I sell this place and move to northern Idaho. Meanwhile I want to learn > about tropical fish in general and Bettas, tetras and mollies specifically. > I love beautifully decorated aquariums with lovely brilliant fish swimming > about. > > > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50745	From: LindaS	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. Best, LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50746	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: new addition , new fishes

i got some new fishes the other day : 12 feeder / gold fish 5 guppies , 3 pregant 2 more male betta's : in seperate tanks 2 crabs male and female. im looking for more info on crabs , any info is helpful. thanks ..............................................

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50747	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: cycle or none cycled

How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50748	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Link to a newly-started fledgling Yahoo fish group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50749	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: fiddler crab help

i have a male and female. i ready a informational site, still needing info, ASAP. what all is a fiddler crap supposta have in there tank. If you can please email me. Thanks for any help i can get. I am new with crabs. Diet Food may be flaked, dried, pelleted, frozen, or live Feed a variety of food to ensure complete nutrition Feeding Make sure a small amount of food reaches the bottom of the tank; if unsure, drop sinking pellets into the tank at nights; alternate protein- and algae-based pellets Thaw frozen foods before feeding Housing Should be kept in an appropriate size aquarium with one square foot of bottom area per crab Provide plenty of commercial décor, such as rocks, plants, and other hiding places Water temperature may range from 70° F to 82° F Choose tank companions carefully; some crabs and fish will be aggressive toward each other Stable water quality, temperature, and pH levels are critical to the health of aquatic life. If you are unsure of your water quality or pH levels, PETCO provides free water testing. Recommended Supplies Yes No Check "Yes" or "No" after reading the following statements: ❑ ❑ 1. I have room for an appropriate size, escape-proof aquarium. ❑ ❑ 2. This crab would be compatible with my other aquarium inhabitants. ❑ ❑ 3. I can commit to providing proper care for this crab. ❑ ❑ 4. A mature person will provide responsible and primary care for this invertebrate Freshwater Crabs Includes fiddler and red claw crabs ❑ Appropriate size aquarium ❑ Appropriate food ❑ Filter ❑ Water conditioner and additive ❑ Aquarium cover ❑ Net ❑ Water test kit ❑ Décor ❑ Airstone ❑ Thermometer ❑ Substrate ❑ Air pump ❑ Heater ❑ Light ❑ Book about freshwater fish or aquariums ❑ PETCO Care Sheets: Water Quality; Nitrogen Cycle; Setting up a Freshwater Aquarium Page 2 2 of 2 SKU 948772 © 2004, PETCO Animal Supplies, Inc. All rights reserved. (0515) Characteristics Active nocturnal scavengers; may eat snails Female fiddler crabs have two equal size claws; males have one small and one large claw that they frequently wave in jerky motions through the water Crabs can climb almost any surface, including airline tubing and intake tubes; secure all holes in aquarium hood to keep crabs inside All crabs molt; a crab lying on its back may be molting Habitat Maintenance Check filter, other equipment, and water temperature daily Test water quality weekly Change 10–25% of the total volume of water every two to four weeks, or as needed Introduce new inhabitants to the aquarium gradually Compatibility No more than one crab per square foot is recommended Do not keep with fish that will harass or eat them, such as certain cichlids May catch and eat small fish, dwarf African frogs, and other tank mates that live or sleep on the bottom of the tank Signs of a Healthy Crab Common Health Issues Little is known about diseases that affect invertebrates; as long as environmental conditions and food supplies are adequate, invertebrates are fairly resistant to disease Preventing Common Health Issues Avoid crowded conditions; they are a major cause of stress and disease Maintain good water quality with regular water changes and adequate filtration Maintain appropriate stocking levels and tank mates Sources Aquarium Fish by Dick Mills Shrimps, Crayfishes, and crabs in the Freshwater Aquarium by Uwe Werner The New Aquarium Handbook by Ines Scheurmann Note: The information on this Care Sheet is not a substitute for veterinary care. If you need additional information, please refer to the above sources or contact your veterinarian as appropriate. Freshwater Crabs Includes fiddler and red claw crabs · Active scavenging · Healthy appetite · Bright, even coloring · Clean in appearance http://www.google.com/gwt/x?gl=us&client=ms-android-sprint-us&q=what+does+fresh+water+crabs+eat&hl=en&ei=xpR5TcCpB9aStge894yAAg&ved=0CAoQFjAB&source=m&rd=1&u=http://www.petco.com/caresheets/fish/Generic_Crabs.pdf

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50750	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

I cycle my tank because if I don’t there are toxins in the water that can kill my fish. Maybe I don’t understand the question??? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50751	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Patricia. In answer to your questions: How many people dont cycle there tanks ? Too many. How many cycle there tanks? Not enough. What makes cycling a tank better too you ? Establishment of a chemical process known as the "Biological Cycle", the "Nitrogen Cycle", or, simply, "The Cycle". Cycling a container of water that will hold live fish is an important step in establishing a suitable environment for aquatic animals. The cycle is taking ammonia, produced by the animals, and which is toxic to them in relatively small amounts, converting it to nitrite (also toxic, but in greater quantities), then converting nitrite into nitrate, a relatively harmless, in small quantities. Excess nitrates are removed from the water column in a closed system by the use of live plants and/or regular partial water changes. The conversion process of ammonia and nitrite is accomplished by aerobic bacteria. Nitrates can be rendered into harmless compounds by anaerobic bacteria, but this is difficult to do in a home aquarium. This cycle has become known and better understood by hobbyists fairly recently. Knowledge of this cycle started to become available to hobbyists in the late '50's and early '60's. This knowledge started to become widespread in the late '60's and early '70's. (No research has been done to determine whether the rise of the use of hallucinogenic drugs was related to this phenomenon or correlated in any way to the increase of the knowledge of the cycle. <g>) Now, it is seen that the best way to start the cycle is with a fishless environment by introducing plain ammonia in a specific quantity to a container of water to induce the start of the cycle over a period of weeks. More recently there has been the introduction of products to produce an "instant" cycle, only one or two of which is known, and guaranteed to work as advertised nearly every time it is used. Successfully creating and maintaining the cycle is an important component of keeping and being successful with fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50752	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

Yes, fortunately, Frankie the Fish's passing has served some purpose here, if only the advice given by others on proper fish maintenance would be heeded and not totally ignored as though this rather poor advice you've given to the owner were authoritative and sound and not the whims of an uneducated hobbyist in the ways of proper fish maintenance. By "irresponsible," I am not suggesting that you are knowingly and purposefully subjecting your fish to unnecessary stresses and improper maintenance, as the descriptions of your methods show that you do not know how to properly take care orf fish even though you are trying. I recognize that you've been making attempts at caring for your fish during this long period in keeping them, and may have even be trying to look out for their best interests in your way of thinking. But it's obvious that your methods are only the result of your way of thinking, which needs to be reviewed by you. Not knowing from the start, how to properly take care of fish, there's no way that you could know just what you're doing wrong -- or how to do things better. It's very obvious too, that you've never read up on the proper basics of fishkeeping, for their benefit, but have relied only on what you've (erroneously) determined to be good care, but again, you couldn't know that if you never took the initiative to study up on them further. This is where I see you being irresponsible, as every pet owner not otherwise actually knowing how to take care of their pets should at least want to learn as much about them by reading up on their basic needs and how to take care of them -- not just go with what you feel works, as you have a lot to learn about fish. Again, anything I'm telling you here is not meant in a derogatory way, but is an attempt in trying to be constructive of your methods so that you may want to learn more about your fish and their proper care before going just with what you perceive to be acceptable for them. In addressing your point one by one, in trying to aid you in better fish maintenance -- if you should (hopefully) care to see it this way -- and not as though my statement were from a debating stance, I'll try to wprk through them to clarify some of your misconceptions. For starters, there is no reason to need to spend tons of money on water conditioners, etc., but just as with keeping any pet, we do need certain basic "tools" in seeing to their proper maintenance -- just as we would need in keeping a dog, a bird or any other animal. These aids ("tools"), would include a good water conditioner -- especially a dechloriminator, when the hobbyist's publuc water supplier is adding chloramine to the water (and not just chlorine). This is essential, as chloramine does not dissipate from the water and is highly toxic to fish. It's IMPOSSIBLE to keep fish in untreated water containing chloramine, as they will die within 10 minutes (or less) of being exposed to it. So -- you'll need to spend about $5 or $6 (or less) on a water conditioner when receiving water having chlotramine added to it -- which is getting more prevalent. These aids would also include a master water testing kit to advise the hobbyist of the basics of the water chemistry and to become aware of any toxic build-up in the water, of organic waste products. This kit may cost about $20, but both of these items I mentioned will last a long time as they're generally not used every day. You may not even need the test kit very often, but it pays to monitor your water parameters to avoid possible problems. On top of that, they are a necessity when incurring a problem to let you know where you stand as far as the quality of the water. Yes, fry or any very small fish can get sucked into the filter, depending on the size of the fry and the flow rate of the filter. I can understand your getting confused on this matter, when not experiencing this firsthand. YES -- I will AGREE -- Bettas are fighting fish -- BUT -- they fight ONLY among themselves, not with any other fish. They are perfectly peaceful in the presence of other fish. This erroneous conception alone, of fighting fish (Bettas) battling other fish, makes it obvious you have done no reading on Bettas. The reason one would use a "whole aquarium" for one fish (one Betta), is to give this fish some quality of life -- if you at all value what the fish you say you care for experiences in its everyday living. A small container offers the fish no everyday experiences or stimuli when all's it has is little more than room to swim around in, in a "sterile" (lacking in amenities -- plants, decorations, a change in scenery throughout the tank, etc.) environment. These "whole aquariums" need not be more than small 2 1/2 gallon tanks, although many hobbyists even prefer housing their pet Bettas in 5 gallon tanks. TOO, on does not need to use a whole aquarium for just a Betta, as other types of fish can be housed very peacefully with them -- so you could have a nice small community tank if you sp preferred. Again, as you think this is not doable because these are "fighting fish," it's obvious that you've never read enough (anything?) about them to know this is completely wrong. Snails can get bitten and killed by many different fish, as fish in general tend to see the two moving antennas as a wiggling type of live food and bite them. As for snails bringing in disease, this has absolutely nothing to do with Bettas, as this can happen in any aquarium. I realize that you've had your Bettas for a year and a half now, but this does not mean that they're being cared for the best they can. This just means that despite some of the wrong methods you've used with them, that these methods were not yet fatal to them -- not necessarily that they were thriving all this time -- or that they have been experiencing any kind of variety of interesting (to them) experiences in their daily swim around their small bowl -- or that they've not received any stresses from your erroneous methods. Again, I know that you're not subjecting your fish knowingly to stresses, but your lack of knowledge from not reading up on proper fish maintenance and you preference to maintain them only under your less knowledgeable methods promotes this. You are just fortunate that at least one of your fish has not expired yet, which I would wish you could be spared from if you only wanted to learn more about them. I need to tell you that their average temperature of their natural environment IS NOT 70 o -- although their environment can dip down to 68 o at times -- their recognized low survivable temperature at which they'll still remain healthy and retain a high enough immunity to ward off any diseases. Too much below 68 o, and these fish can become sick in receiving too much stress of a temperature below their established temperature range. Too long at this minimum of 68 o, and their sickness will be fatal, as they'll never recover. For this reason, while the fish will still survive at 70 o, they will not be flourishing in this low temperature and will be more prone to contracting a disease since this is near the bottom of the borderline of the temperature range of these fish. As their natural environment also reaches at least 90 o at times -- and is partially (along with other detrimental environmental issues, such as poor water quality) why these fish developed the ability to breathe air, since poor warmer water has little oxygen. By this, you can surely see that while their natural environment may dip to 70 o, it surley doesn't stay that low, besides which, these fish need at least 78 o to breed. They would no longer exist in their natural environment if it were a constant 70 o. As for treatments, there is no treatment for Bettas to the best of my knowledge that would cost thousands of dollars. There may be surgical treatments performed on prize-winning Koi having values of $10,000 and up, which may cost thousands of dollars, but such surgery has yet to be developed for such small fish as Bettas even if one were to intend on spending this kind of money on treating one. There are medications which must be used in some cases when a fish gets sick, when it could not pull through their illness on their own, but most of these costs less than $10; many of them less than $5. There are circumstances where medications are imperitive in saving the life of aquarium fish, which would otherwise secumb without them. This is all part of responsible fish care, should one's fish come down with an illness that requires these meds. When the proper medication to use is not known by the hobbyist, this is just one more reason to inquire of us as to the best way to proceed. Putting fish in sun is of course nothing additional to what they would receive in nature -- BUT -- in nature, they have their entire environmental body of water surrounding them, preventing any fast elevations in temperature. Their environment may not heat up more than 1 o or 2 o at the most during any one day, depending on the quantity of water they're in -- and it cools off just as slowly. I do note that you keep an eye on the water temp, since it can go up pretty high, and that you of course don't want to boil your fish. But again, when placing a 1/2 gallon bowl of water in the sun, it can experience a fairly high rise in temperature during a much faster time period than they'd ever have to endure in their natural environment -- so much so, that it can be stressful for your fish -- even if it hasn't been fatal up until now. One major factor you are disregrading at this time is that when placing a container of water with fish in direct sunlight, is that the sunlight will be shining into the SIDE of the container (not especially the best thing for the fish's eyesight), whereas in nature, sunlight NEVER has the opportunity to shine into the "side" of the water column of a lake or river, but only at some angle through the water's surface -- onto the top of the fish. I AM glad, for your fish's sake, that your methods have not done them in yet, but I ask you to please not recommend them for other members here until you know what's correct and proper -- and I urge you to read some literature on fish to get learn more about these fish that you care for, to provide them with even better care that what you're giving them now -- and AGAIN, I suggest this only in hopes that you succeed further in keeping these very entertaining animals. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. > What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. > The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. > I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. > I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. > I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. > Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. > I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. > If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. > Best, > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50753	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50754	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

Linda, There are instances where a betta can be sucked into a filter, however, if the proper type/size of a filter is used, this should not be a problem. I know you feel that water conditioners are optional, but they really are not. I am so glad that your method appears to be working for you, at least on the outside. The constant fluctuation of temp as you describe does contribute to organ damage. Just because you can't see the damage doesn't mean it isn't there. I have done so many necropsy studies on the betta splendens over the yrs, so I am not offering you hearsay or something I read somewhere... I am telling you from experience that the methods you offered as advice are very dangerous for the fish. Slowly pouring warm to hot water into a cold betta bowl is not considered proper acclimation of any fish. When that warmer water is mixing into the colder water it creates pockets of various temps. When a fish (any fish) swims through a hot or cold pocket it causes shock and damage to the internal organs, and in a weaker fish or if the temps differ by too much, this shock can cause instant death. The average temp found in this species natural habitat is not 70 degrees. These fish come from Thailand and other parts of Asia where the minimum temp is usually 70 degrees. That is the low end of proper temp for a betta. The average temp is closer to 80 degrees. The other thing that is important to understand about temp is that matching the environment of their natural habitat is not always the best way to go unless you are keeping a wild caught fish. If your fish is captive bred and raised, as most pet store and Walmart fish are, then this fish is no longer acclimated to a wild environment. Through inbreeding (often called line breeding) which is done for fin styles, color, body shape, etc. the immune system of any fish is compromised/weakened, making it less tolerant of the wild environment. And yet another concern about water temp is the air temp at the water's surface. When those 2 temps differ by more than a degree or 2 that can also mean shock and/or illness or death for the fish. Because they are cold blooded and the water temp determines their body temp, to breathe in air that is much higher or lower in temp can leave the betta open to many respiratory illnesses, including pneumonia and labyrinth gland damage. All of these changes cause stress. In the fish world, stress kills. The statement you made about using water conditioners "as if you had saltwater fish" is also a bit misinformed. Marine tanks seldom use water conditioners because they use RO/DI water which is mixed with a marine salt mixture. The RO/DI process removes all of the impurities in the water, which is why in fresh water, when using it to soften water, it MUST be mixed with tap water to add mineral content. To not do so would cause dehydration of the fish, among other things. I apologize if anything I said offended you, but I have to stand on the info the rest of us offered about betta care. While there are many right ways to keep a fish alive and healthy, there are also some very wrong ways to do it... and your advice still falls into the category of "the wrong way". If your betta lives to its full potential life span of 3 - 5 yrs I would have to call that luck, and would still have to advise others to follow proper keeping methods. Bettas are sturdy but they are not indestructible. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. > What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. > The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. > I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. > I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. > I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. > Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. > I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. > If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. > Best, > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50755	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

Blog about feeding live food to fish. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3713&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_11_2011&utm_term=Live_feeding:_a_crime?_Feedback_from_DEFRA&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4zpxjtd [Acronyms used: DEFRA= The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) is a Government Department in the UK. PFK= Practical Fishkeeping, a magazine for aquarium keepers in the UK.] Live feeding: a crime? Feedback from DEFRA Having become concerned at some of the complacency within the trade regarding the situation of feeding live fish to other fish, I have spent some time trying to clarify the issue, finding just where the legislation stands on this controversial and often inflammatory issue. In a forthcoming edition of PFK I will be presenting an analysis of some of the arguments used in justifying live feeding of fish, as well as the responses both counter and sympathetic to them. However, in the short term I can quote some of the correspondence that I have had with DEFRA on the matter. As an overview, the 2006 Animal Welfare Act introduced a duty of care applicable to all vertebrate animals purchased within the pet industry, and it is this act that I shall be scrutinising in my future article. Strikingly, the first comment made in a reply email from a DEFRA contact was that "the practice of feeding live prey is not expressly prohibited in this country," although as the letter continues, this does not give an immediate green light to keepers wanting to race out and feed their piranha on living goldfish. Various caveats and clauses still suggest that in the act of providing a live fish as food, you are breaking a law, despite this ambiguous start. DEFRA promptly add that, "Under [Section] 4 of the 2006 Act it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering to animals under the control of man." They further go on to say that "[it] may be considered as causing unnecessary suffering to either the prey or, conceivably, the predator if the prey injures the predator in any struggle." At this time and as far as this author knows, no specific case has been presented to the legal system regarding the live feeding of a fish, and DEFRA add "it would be for the courts to decide whether such an activity constituted an offence under the 2006 Act." --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50756	From: haecklers	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: new addition , new fishes

How many tanks do you have and what size? I'm asking because you seem like a beginner, and that's a lot of fish if you only have a 10 gallon (or even 20 gallon) tank. To avoid a lot of your new fish dying right away, you're going to need to learn some stuff, get a test kit for ammonia, and do some water changing! Feeder goldfish start getting sick right away in the pet stores, because they keep them too overcrowded and they start dying from their own waste. If you wanted to rescue the goldfish the best thing to do would be get a kiddie wading pool for them because they won't stay healthy in much less than a 55 gallon tank for very long. They are babies of fish that grow really huge, and they want to eat and grow fast, but eating that much will foul the water (what goes in one end goes out the other). Also, while goldfish prefer their water on the cool/room temp. side, the guppies will want warmth, especially if you haven't cycled their tank yet and there are unhealthy levels of ammonia building up in the water - cold guppies get sick faster (but warm goldfish get sick faster). Your betta fish will be a lot happier and healthier if they get heaters as well, but don't trust anything less than a 2.5 gallon tank if you're going to heat it, the smaller size containers heat up and cool off too much, which is stressful to the fish. If you are somewhere warm like Florida or Texas (or California) you can put the guppies outside as well. Feeder guppies thrive outdoors as long as they don't get too cold! The colors look pretty in the sunlight and they quickly learn you feed them and all come begging whenever they see you approach. Now about your tank. Get an ammonia test kit. There is a chemical they sell in pet stores called ammonia decreaser. You can use that, but then you won't be able to test the ammonia because it causes false positives. You can do water changes whenever it gets to the "unhealthy" stage to try to keep the ammonia from building up too high until the bacteria grow to break it down. Or you could just do water changes every day to keep them safe until the tank is cycled (3 weeks or longer). I kept my betta females really overcrowded and fed them heavily. If I change 30% of the water every day, vacuuming the bottom to remove the poos, they stay healthy. But they do have a cycled filter. Some pet stores are now selling some aids to help the tank cycle more quickly, I've never used them so can't say how well they work. Welcome to the group and best wishes with your new fish! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > i got some new fishes the other day : > > > 12 feeder / gold fish > > > 5 guppies , 3 pregant > > > 2 more male betta's : in seperate tanks > > 2 crabs male and female. > > im looking for more info on crabs , any info is helpful. > > thanks .............................................. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50757	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

I’m sorry, but I have to step in here. Would you please go in and fill your tub with water, climb in and stay a week. Eat, pee and poop in it. This is what a fish in a small bowl has to do. Do you like it? Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LindaS Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 11:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. Best, LinS [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50758	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50759	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: FL: Dolphins Save Stranded Dog

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3701&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_11_2011&utm_term=Dolphins_save_stranded_dog&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4cg26kg Dolphins save stranded dog A dog which had become stranded on a sandbar near Naples in Florida, was rescued after two dolphins alerted a couple who were on holiday in the area. Audrey and Sam D'Alessandro had been planning to go fishing when they saw "two dolphins splashing and making a big commotion" in the canal behind their holiday home, reports Fox News. Apparently it's not unusual to see dolphins swimming through the canal on their way to the Golf of Mexico, but these were acting very strangely, staying in one place and splashing water against the canal wall. On closer investigation, the couple saw that a dog - a Doberman Pinscher similar to the one pictured above - had become stranded on a sandbar, where it was half underwater and too weak to bark. It had been unable to get onto dry land because the canal wall was too high. Firefighters helped to hoist the dog to safety, by which time the dolphins had gone. The dog - called Turbo - was later reunited with his owner, who got the good news of his rescue while putting up lost-dog posters. Ed's note: It's OK, we know dolphins aren't fish, but we couldn't resist this story... Published: Practical Fishkeeping Tuesday 8 March 2011, 9:06 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50760	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: flying gurnard

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3711&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_11_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Flying_gurnard&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4l969ha [Photos & video available on the site.] Weird fish of the week: Flying gurnard Fish that can walk and forage with their fins? This week's weird fish is sometimes to be found off our coast here in the UK: Dactylopterus volitans, more commonly known as the Flying gurnard. Check out the video! The first thing to clear up is its name. Despite both common and scientific names suggesting otherwise, ('volitans' deriving from the Greek for flying) these fish cannot fly, or even glide. The purpose of their extravagantly enlarged pectoral fins seems largely to be as a defence mechanism. When disturbed they extend the fins, which are edged with bright blue, outwards and this display startles and confuses would be predators. The weirdest thing about these odd fish though is their way of moving about and feeding. Rather than swimming they prefer to use adapted pelvic fins to 'walk' along the seabed in search of food. The oddness continues as their prey of crabs, shrimp, other small crustaceans and fish are found with the use of two specially adapted parts of the pectoral fins, which have formed into what look almost like two hands. The fish uses these to prod and poke about on the sea floor, pushing aside seaweed and pebbles, and washing away sand in an attempt to disturb and uncover any potential food which is quickly snapped up by the hungry fish. See all this in action in the video below: These peculiar fin adaptations explain the first part of their scientific name which derives from the Greek words for 'finger' and 'fin'. They are capable of swimming in a more normal manner with their oversized pectorals folded neatly away, and do possess a swimbladder to help with this, unlike many 'walking' fish species. Like the true gurnards or sea robins, the Flying gurnard can make a drumming sound by hitting their swimbladder - whether this noise-making capability is another method of startling predators, or for communicating with other Flying gurnards is unknown. They are well protected fish, whose body is covered in large, scute-like scales while the bones of the head have formed a tough helmet. These defensive measures make the Flying gurnard a surprisingly bold species, unconcerned by approaching divers, some of whom have reported the fish suddenly turning and ramming into them with their bony armour if their warning display is ignored. Growing to around 50cm/20in, they are found throughout the Atlantic, as well as the English Channel, Mediterranean and Gulf of Mexico. Why not check out some of our other Weird fish of the week features? Pinecone fish Sea lamprey Slender snipe eel Tripod fish Lumpsucker Ocean sunfish Two-headed arowana Stargazers Giant oarfish Kroyer's deep sea anglerfish Halimeda ghost pipefish Published: Bob Mehen Friday 11 March 2011, 10:39 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50761	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

Linda, In digesting further the comments you put forth here, I would just like to include some added thought in this topic which it seems you haven't considered. You've stated here that you use warmer water (BTW, previously it was hot water -- which you had to be careful with, in not burning the fish), at those times when you can't do a full water change, because their water is a bit COLD. Since even YOU realize that their water is cold (since it's just equal to the room temperature), why would you want to knowingly keep them in cold water? AND, if you feel that 70 o is normal for them, why do you add warmer water if you feel 70 o is adequate? Which of course, it's not. As I'm sure you must know, while adding warmer water will increase the temperature of the whole bowl of water, it will not remain warmer for any more than a couple of hours at the most -- then, it will drop right back down to its cold temperature. It's detrimental to any fish when the temperature is induced to fluctuate so much in such a short time. Bettas should not be kept at 70 o either, which it appears you must really realize since you try to warm it. I have no idea to what temperature you warm it to when doing this, but if you need to be careful enough so that you don't burn the fish, I could guess it might be 90 o -- or at the very least, perhaps 80 o. This is probably at least a 10 o change in temperature in a matter of minutes, even if you add the water slowly, as you said you do. You say it has never hurt them -- but there's no way of you to actually know that, unless you actually kill the fish. You can't see any internal damage that may be done to the fish which, although it may continue to live for the year and a half you've had them so far, they may well not live to their full life span because of this stress and potential damage. If you don't think that such a fast change in temperature is stressful, know it can be very damaging, as Dawn points out. Fish cannot stresslessly adjust to a 10 o (or more?) water temperature difference even within 10 minutes -- and I'm sure you don't take that long to pour the water in "slowly." Since, as you've indicated, you are aware that your Bettas' water is cold most of the time (except when adding new water), and since you try to warm their water during water changes -- and probably wouldn't do that just when making partial water changes (as that would not make any sense at all to just do it then), I'm left with the very real notion that you must use completely warmer water (from their previously cold water) when doing full water changes -- and you apparently do make full water changes most of the time except when you only have time to make partial water changes (as you've stated). So, you leave me with no alternative except to understand that you use heated water when making full water changes. Otherwise, how would you get their water warmer at those times that you do complete water changes -- since you seem to see the necessity for it and make the attempts at having their water warmer at those times you make water changes? While this may "work" for YOU, please know that you have been very lucky in getting away with this -- but YOUR FISH are not as lucky as they're taking all the stress, even if you haven't killed them yet. If you're at all concerned about your fish, you need to learn more (and should want to learn more) about them to care for them better -- not just do what "works" for YOU. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. > What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. > The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. > I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. > I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. > I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. > Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. > I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. > If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. > Best, > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50762	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters for nearly a year I don’t want to change. Also the cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory I feel it is safe to add another cory. I’ll keep track of the water values to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 gal. tank. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50763	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Hi Judy, You would do well in adding another Cory, if only because they do best in company of their own -- as opposed to being kept as a lone Cory in the aquarium. Depending upon their size, this may well affect how well a 5 gallon tank could handle this added bioload, so your readiness to go to a 10 gallon would be in their best interest. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Moon" <judymoon@...> wrote: > > I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within > the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the > cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory > I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values > to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 > gal. tank. > > > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > > > > > Judy, > > You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized > tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be > more stable, which is better for the fish. > > Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live > plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the > amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing > nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with > your cycling. > > Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may > incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident > than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to > do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you > are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, > come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, > some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to > cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of Judy Moon > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water > changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely > well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory > cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > How many people dont cycle there tanks ? > > How many cycle there tanks? > > What makes cycling a tank better too you ? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50764	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Thanks for the advice and yes I am planning to another 10 gal very soon. (Before adding the other cory, so if the water parameters change I can move all immediately. Meaning as soon as the new tank is cycled.) Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 12:12 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: cycle or none cycled Hi Judy, You would do well in adding another Cory, if only because they do best in company of their own -- as opposed to being kept as a lone Cory in the aquarium. Depending upon their size, this may well affect how well a 5 gallon tank could handle this added bioload, so your readiness to go to a 10 gallon would be in their best interest. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Judy Moon" <judymoon@...> wrote: > > I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within > the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the > cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory > I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values > to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 > gal. tank. > > > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > > > > > Judy, > > You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized > tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be > more stable, which is better for the fish. > > Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live > plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the > amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing > nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with > your cycling. > > Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may > incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident > than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to > do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you > are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, > come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, > some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to > cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of Judy Moon > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water > changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely > well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory > cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > How many people dont cycle there tanks ? > > How many cycle there tanks? > > What makes cycling a tank better too you ? > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50765	From: Ray	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: Adding a Cat, was: cycle or none cycled

Hi Judy, In my previous answer to you, you'll note I was replying to your second post on this thread. I didn't catch your first message. I notice your reason for wanting to add another Cory is because the algae is starting to cover the tank glass. Please know that Cory Catfish are not especially noted for eating much algae. You probably don't want to increase the bioload dramatically, or I'd recommend one of the smaller Bristle-nose Plecos, but they get to near 6" long and are hefty little critters. You would do well for cleaning algae, by getting an Otocinclus Catfish (or two . . . they're small), although I need to tell you that they need a bit more maintenance. If you're diligent about your tank maintenance, you should have no trouble keeping this fish. Otherwise, it may not thrive in less quality water. In any case, Cory Cats do best in numbers of their own species, and second best with a related Cory species. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Judy Moon" <judymoon@...> wrote: > > I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water > changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely > well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory > cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. > > > > Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army > > For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and > of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV > > pug3.jpg > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled > > > > > > How many people dont cycle there tanks ? > > How many cycle there tanks? > > What makes cycling a tank better too you ? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50766	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Judy, Without numbers, one does not know what to make of a statement such as yours: ". . . the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters . . .". I cannot count the number of people I have heard that statement, or one similar to it, only to find, when they have finally come back with numbers, that the numbers make hash out of their original statement. The cycle itself can change the pH of the water. Water from your tap can have one pH reading upon immediate testing, and an entirely different reading after 24 hours. This change in pH may not be just one or two decimal digits, but several decimal digits. Then, one must consider the things we do not, or cannot, measure as hobbyists. These are generally placed in a category known as DOC's, Dissolved Organic Compounds or Carbon. These include hormones released by the fish themselves, including one that can actually stunt the growth of your fish. Other such substances may have an effect on your fish's health over a period of time, if they are present in high enough concentrations. Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than we afford them in our aquariums. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 gal. tank. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50767	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Thanks Steve for sharing your opinions. I know most of what you were talking about but I am not able to buy another kit until next month due to expenses and the fact I live on Social Security. My biggest problem now is finding out how to move my fish, when my house sells. Got any ideas? I will be moving 1300 miles which will be 3 or 4 days. I’m too old to drive for 10 or 12 hours. I will also be moving all my animals, so will need to stop and feed, water and walk the dogs. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:23 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, Without numbers, one does not know what to make of a statement such as yours: ". . . the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters . . .". I cannot count the number of people I have heard that statement, or one similar to it, only to find, when they have finally come back with numbers, that the numbers make hash out of their original statement. The cycle itself can change the pH of the water. Water from your tap can have one pH reading upon immediate testing, and an entirely different reading after 24 hours. This change in pH may not be just one or two decimal digits, but several decimal digits. Then, one must consider the things we do not, or cannot, measure as hobbyists. These are generally placed in a category known as DOC's, Dissolved Organic Compounds or Carbon. These include hormones released by the fish themselves, including one that can actually stunt the growth of your fish. Other such substances may have an effect on your fish's health over a period of time, if they are present in high enough concentrations. Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than we afford them in our aquariums. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 gal. tank. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50768	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/12/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

This has been covered here several times over the years, and can be found in the archives. However, it is pretty simple. The aquarium is the last thing to pack and the first thing to be unpacked. The fish should not be fed for 48 hours prior to moving them. You seem to indicate that you will be on the road for about 3 days. This calls for a bit of pre-planning so your fish will make it in good shape. This would include finding some poly filter to place a small amount in each bag. Poly filter is a brand of filter that will help by trapping ammonia and other contaminates in the water in the matrix of the material used to make the product. This will help you make the trip without doing a possibly dangerous water change during your trip. Since you have so few fish, I'd bag each one separately, using just enough water in the bags to cover the fish when the bag is laying down, which is how you should pack them, to give the greatest amount of surface area of water to the air in the bag. You can get bags at your local fish store--suggest paying for them, though you may get them for free. You'll also need a cooler or Styrofoam box to pack the fish in to help maintain an even temperature during the trip.. When you tie the bags, you need to trap air in the bag, just as they came from the fish store. This does take some practice to do. You will need to practice before bagging the fish. I know, though I do not have a link, that there are instructions on doing this on the web. Hopefully, prior to the move, you are able to test your water at your new home to know what the water conditions are. If not, there are methods to deal with any radical change that you may face. On the day of the move, the last thing you do before leaving is to pack your fish. Bag them one at a time with a piece of the poly filter in each bag. It need only be a fairly small piece.& lay the bags in the insulated container you have for them. (You can even construct one from a cardboard box and sheet Styrofoam.) If you have any live plants, get a few sheets of newspaper to lay the plants on, and pack the plants, after wrapping them in the newspaper and wetting it, on top of the fish in the box. Place the box, if you can, in the passenger compartment of your vehicle (generally more temperature controlled than the trunk, get your other animals in and go. When you stop for the night, bring the box into the room where you are staying with you. At some point during your stay, open each bag, replace the piece of poly filter if it has become discolored, and reseal the bag. The purpose of this exercise is to get some fresh air into the bag. Repack the fish. You can wait to do this until you are nearly ready to leave. Since you have such a small tank, you may choose to take the water with you in a plastic container. When you empty the tank, keep the substrate wet, and ensure it stays wet by covering it with some plastic wrap or similar. This will help keep some of the bacteria you need alive, if hibernating. Clean out the filter--you do not want to deal with a dirty filter that has been hanging around for a few days. When you arrive, first thing to do is to set up the tank, and get the fish back into it. If you brought your water with you, use it. If not, use water that is warm, but not hot to fill the tank. You will want the water to be near the temperature to be near the temperature you will be keeping the tank at. Add the plants, heater and filter. Use some of your poly filter in the filter to help maintain a low or no level of ammonia while the populations of bacteria rebuild themselves. If you use new water, and it is very close to the old water, you can add the fish right away. If the water is different by more than 0.1 or 0.2 on the pH scale, you'll want to open the bags of fish and add a small amount of the new water to the bag. This is to help the fish adjust, slowly, to the new water. You can find on the web a description of the drip method of adjust fish to new water. (I'm not trying to write a book here.) You will want to add only a small amount of water each time over a period of several hours to make the adjustment. Having said all that, I'd probably, given the number of fish you have, just re-home all the fish and start fresh after I've completed the move. It would just be one less thing to worry about during the move. The last time I moved, all my fish were gone before I left, and I was living in a motel for about two months while I found a place to buy and move into it, at which time I went back home and collected my belongings, my girl, and the dogs and cats, and came back down to where I am living now. However, even if I was moving straight into a new place, I'd probably would have kept only a few fish, if any, and moved those few fish with me (rarer fish that were, and are, not easy to find. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:09 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Thanks Steve for sharing your opinions. I know most of what you were talking about but I am not able to buy another kit until next month due to expenses and the fact I live on Social Security. My biggest problem now is finding out how to move my fish, when my house sells. Got any ideas? I will be moving 1300 miles which will be 3 or 4 days. I'm too old to drive for 10 or 12 hours. I will also be moving all my animals, so will need to stop and feed, water and walk the dogs. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:23 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, Without numbers, one does not know what to make of a statement such as yours: ". . . the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters . . .". I cannot count the number of people I have heard that statement, or one similar to it, only to find, when they have finally come back with numbers, that the numbers make hash out of their original statement. The cycle itself can change the pH of the water. Water from your tap can have one pH reading upon immediate testing, and an entirely different reading after 24 hours. This change in pH may not be just one or two decimal digits, but several decimal digits. Then, one must consider the things we do not, or cannot, measure as hobbyists. These are generally placed in a category known as DOC's, Dissolved Organic Compounds or Carbon. These include hormones released by the fish themselves, including one that can actually stunt the growth of your fish. Other such substances may have an effect on your fish's health over a period of time, if they are present in high enough concentrations. Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than we afford them in our aquariums. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 gal. tank. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50769	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Water changes

Gosh Steve I am so glad to read this from you. If this could be taught to the average aquarists, the use of test kits could be forgotten. Keep the water the same all the time, just change the tank water and change it often. Make it as it started when you first added fish to the tank. Thanks for your instructions. Charles Harrison >Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once >a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time >and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most >fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a >perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than >we afford them in our aquariums. > \\Steve// -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50770	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: Water changes

Charles, You may have missed an earlier post that discusses water. In that post I pointed out that most municipal systems have several sources of water and that they can and will change sources during the course of a year. Water from one source can be very different from another source. Say the system has been using reservoir water. The reservoir is now running low, so they switch to well water. The pH of the reservoir may have been near neutral (7.0) while the well water has a ph of 7.8. If your water system is aquarium friendly, they'll let you know of the change, as mine does. If they are not, or you miss the announcement, you can go ahead doing your water change, and suddenly your fish are freaking out because of the change in pH. This points out the need to check your tap water several times a year, at least, every time you change water would be best. Water is crucial to your fish's health and well being. This is not to say that you want a completely stable water, some change is also good for the fish, but radical change is not. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Harrison Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:26 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Water changes Gosh Steve I am so glad to read this from you. If this could be taught to the average aquarists, the use of test kits could be forgotten. Keep the water the same all the time, just change the tank water and change it often. Make it as it started when you first added fish to the tank. Thanks for your instructions. Charles Harrison >Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once >a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time >and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most >fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a >perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than >we afford them in our aquariums. > \\Steve// -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50771	From: Judy Moon	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycle or none cycled

Steve, Very Good. I think I shall take your advice and re-home my 2 fish. It will make my life so easy. Judy Moon For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:49 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled This has been covered here several times over the years, and can be found in the archives. However, it is pretty simple. The aquarium is the last thing to pack and the first thing to be unpacked. The fish should not be fed for 48 hours prior to moving them. You seem to indicate that you will be on the road for about 3 days. This calls for a bit of pre-planning so your fish will make it in good shape. This would include finding some poly filter to place a small amount in each bag. Poly filter is a brand of filter that will help by trapping ammonia and other contaminates in the water in the matrix of the material used to make the product. This will help you make the trip without doing a possibly dangerous water change during your trip. Since you have so few fish, I'd bag each one separately, using just enough water in the bags to cover the fish when the bag is laying down, which is how you should pack them, to give the greatest amount of surface area of water to the air in the bag. You can get bags at your local fish store--suggest paying for them, though you may get them for free. You'll also need a cooler or Styrofoam box to pack the fish in to help maintain an even temperature during the trip.. When you tie the bags, you need to trap air in the bag, just as they came from the fish store. This does take some practice to do. You will need to practice before bagging the fish. I know, though I do not have a link, that there are instructions on doing this on the web. Hopefully, prior to the move, you are able to test your water at your new home to know what the water conditions are. If not, there are methods to deal with any radical change that you may face. On the day of the move, the last thing you do before leaving is to pack your fish. Bag them one at a time with a piece of the poly filter in each bag. It need only be a fairly small piece.& lay the bags in the insulated container you have for them. (You can even construct one from a cardboard box and sheet Styrofoam.) If you have any live plants, get a few sheets of newspaper to lay the plants on, and pack the plants, after wrapping them in the newspaper and wetting it, on top of the fish in the box. Place the box, if you can, in the passenger compartment of your vehicle (generally more temperature controlled than the trunk, get your other animals in and go. When you stop for the night, bring the box into the room where you are staying with you. At some point during your stay, open each bag, replace the piece of poly filter if it has become discolored, and reseal the bag. The purpose of this exercise is to get some fresh air into the bag. Repack the fish. You can wait to do this until you are nearly ready to leave. Since you have such a small tank, you may choose to take the water with you in a plastic container. When you empty the tank, keep the substrate wet, and ensure it stays wet by covering it with some plastic wrap or similar. This will help keep some of the bacteria you need alive, if hibernating. Clean out the filter--you do not want to deal with a dirty filter that has been hanging around for a few days. When you arrive, first thing to do is to set up the tank, and get the fish back into it. If you brought your water with you, use it. If not, use water that is warm, but not hot to fill the tank. You will want the water to be near the temperature to be near the temperature you will be keeping the tank at. Add the plants, heater and filter. Use some of your poly filter in the filter to help maintain a low or no level of ammonia while the populations of bacteria rebuild themselves. If you use new water, and it is very close to the old water, you can add the fish right away. If the water is different by more than 0.1 or 0.2 on the pH scale, you'll want to open the bags of fish and add a small amount of the new water to the bag. This is to help the fish adjust, slowly, to the new water. You can find on the web a description of the drip method of adjust fish to new water. (I'm not trying to write a book here.) You will want to add only a small amount of water each time over a period of several hours to make the adjustment. Having said all that, I'd probably, given the number of fish you have, just re-home all the fish and start fresh after I've completed the move. It would just be one less thing to worry about during the move. The last time I moved, all my fish were gone before I left, and I was living in a motel for about two months while I found a place to buy and move into it, at which time I went back home and collected my belongings, my girl, and the dogs and cats, and came back down to where I am living now. However, even if I was moving straight into a new place, I'd probably would have kept only a few fish, if any, and moved those few fish with me (rarer fish that were, and are, not easy to find. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:09 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Thanks Steve for sharing your opinions. I know most of what you were talking about but I am not able to buy another kit until next month due to expenses and the fact I live on Social Security. My biggest problem now is finding out how to move my fish, when my house sells. Got any ideas? I will be moving 1300 miles which will be 3 or 4 days. I'm too old to drive for 10 or 12 hours. I will also be moving all my animals, so will need to stop and feed, water and walk the dogs. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 3:23 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, Without numbers, one does not know what to make of a statement such as yours: ". . . the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters . . .". I cannot count the number of people I have heard that statement, or one similar to it, only to find, when they have finally come back with numbers, that the numbers make hash out of their original statement. The cycle itself can change the pH of the water. Water from your tap can have one pH reading upon immediate testing, and an entirely different reading after 24 hours. This change in pH may not be just one or two decimal digits, but several decimal digits. Then, one must consider the things we do not, or cannot, measure as hobbyists. These are generally placed in a category known as DOC's, Dissolved Organic Compounds or Carbon. These include hormones released by the fish themselves, including one that can actually stunt the growth of your fish. Other such substances may have an effect on your fish's health over a period of time, if they are present in high enough concentrations. Water changes should be done even more often that once a week, but the once a week regimen is a compromise to maintain good water quality vs. the time and effort put in to keeping one or more aquariums. Keep in mind that most fish, even the bettas which generally come from swampy environments, have a perpetual water change going on, and a lot more water volume per fish than we afford them in our aquariums. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I will only state that since the water values have been consistently within the correct parameters for nearly a year I don't want to change. Also the cory has not bothered the Betta and neither has the Betta bothered the cory I feel it is safe to add another cory. I'll keep track of the water values to see if the second cory affects them in any way. If so I may go to a 10 gal. tank. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 11:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled Judy, You should be doing your water changes weekly, especially in that sized tank. By changing to a weekly water change, your water parameters will be more stable, which is better for the fish. Rather than adding a cory to your tank for algae, consider adding more live plants. Once the live plants are established, they can help reduce the amount of food available for algal growth. They also help in removing nitrogenous wastes, which are not good for your fish, and thereby help with your cycling. Corys are not known for their algae eating prowess, though they may incorporate some into their diets, but probably eat algae more by accident than purposely. Right now I am at a loss to recommend a fish or critter to do this for you because of the size of the tank, and the amount of algae you are likely to produce. As you progress in the hobby you will, or should, come to the realization that no matter how well your tank is maintained, some algae will grow in it. For me, it is only a problem is it starts to cover the viewing surfaces of the aquarium. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Judy Moon Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:42 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled I always cycle new or newly re-started tanks. I also do partial water changes about every other week. My present 5 gal. tank has done extremely well since being started almost a year ago. I will be adding another cory cat as the algae is starting to grow on the tanks wall. Judy Moon, a prayer warrior in Christ's army For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 2 Timothy 1:7 KJV pug3.jpg From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 4:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] cycle or none cycled How many people dont cycle there tanks ? How many cycle there tanks? What makes cycling a tank better too you ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50772	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: new addition , new fishes

im not a beginner with fish.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50773	From: joe t	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a fish eats another fish. Give me a break! joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50774	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: cycling tank

I used to cycle my tanks , but that never worked for me. My fish would die about everytime i did it . Now i never cycle my water. I have tanks from 1 gallon and up to 5 gallon tanks. I have betta's, goldfish, guppies,crabs , snails

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50775	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a Cruelty-Free World Reprogramming Predators http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your mind even more. There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joe t Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a fish eats another fish. Give me a break! joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50776	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank

Patricia, Please explain how you used to cycle your tanks. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] cycling tank I used to cycle my tanks , but that never worked for me. My fish would die about everytime i did it . Now i never cycle my water. I have tanks from 1 gallon and up to 5 gallon tanks. I have betta's, goldfish, guppies,crabs , snails

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50777	From: haecklers	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

I'm kind of feeling like the crazies are forcing me to use my fish as feeders - I'd like to post on craigslist or freecycle that people can come take my female bettas (I have too many and pet stores don't need any more). But I get flagged because I bred them. Aren't the "feeder" goldfish and guppies just culls from the farms? That's what I heard. So they're getting a chance at being rescued before being killed - better than being dumped in a bucket of ice and tossed out with the trash! And what are you supposed to do when your pet fish breed? Keep all the offspring? So guppy owners, for instance, are supposed to KEEP all the guppies their guppies give birth to? Are the AR folks going to ban all the kinds of fish that will breed accidentally, so only breeders who can find good homes for 200-400 fish are allowed to breed them? And then don't even get me started on snails! Do the animal rights nuts really think animals are better off if we're importing fish from overseas or catching them in the wild than for hobbyists to breed them and sell them locally? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > Cruelty-Free World > Reprogramming Predators > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > mind even more. > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of joe t > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > fish eats another fish. > > Give me a break! > > > joe t >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50778	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank

up to 8 weeks id let my filter run. i tested my water weekly. when i put fish , theyed be in bags and theyed be in new tanks hour hour so. then when i put fish in theyed with in 3 days . --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Patricia, > > Please explain how you used to cycle your tanks. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:53 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] cycling tank > > I used to cycle my tanks , but that never worked for me. My fish would die > about everytime i did it . > > Now i never cycle my water. > > I have tanks from 1 gallon and up to 5 gallon tanks. > > I have betta's, goldfish, guppies,crabs , snails >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50779	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

AR people are, succinctly, nuts. What they mainly do is get involved based on emotion rather than facts. When they spout what they call facts, you can dig all around, yet never find a source for the supposed fact, other than in AR sources, which do not use cites for such information. Some say it is from lack of B-12 in the vegan diet many of them eat. B-12 has several sources, but, apparently, the only B-12 that does humans any good is derived from animals. Other forms of B-12 are not very usable. A lack of B-12 affects brain function. Some simply say it makes them stupid. However, not all AR believers practice veganism. It may be that they do not wish to see other humans having fun. What it comes down to is, that, for whatever reason, these people fell that people should not own animals, not profit from animals, that all animals are on the same level as humans are. If you like, I can send you a number of links off list so that you can start to do some research into this area, and it is an area all people who keep animals should have some knowledge of. To start out, though, the most powerful and aggressive group right now is HSUS (The Humane Society of the United States). To get their story from their side, you can look at http://www.humanesociety.org To get another view of HSUS, go to http://humanewatch.org Do note that all the information on the latter site is from publically available sources. HSUS hates Humane Watch, but not once yet has it refuted anything that Humane Watch has posted. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? I'm kind of feeling like the crazies are forcing me to use my fish as feeders - I'd like to post on craigslist or freecycle that people can come take my female bettas (I have too many and pet stores don't need any more). But I get flagged because I bred them. Aren't the "feeder" goldfish and guppies just culls from the farms? That's what I heard. So they're getting a chance at being rescued before being killed - better than being dumped in a bucket of ice and tossed out with the trash! And what are you supposed to do when your pet fish breed? Keep all the offspring? So guppy owners, for instance, are supposed to KEEP all the guppies their guppies give birth to? Are the AR folks going to ban all the kinds of fish that will breed accidentally, so only breeders who can find good homes for 200-400 fish are allowed to breed them? And then don't even get me started on snails! Do the animal rights nuts really think animals are better off if we're importing fish from overseas or catching them in the wild than for hobbyists to breed them and sell them locally? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > Cruelty-Free World > Reprogramming Predators > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > mind even more. > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of joe t > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > fish eats another fish. > > Give me a break! > > > joe t > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50780	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

Snails breed with their selves, is what i was always told. I know one time i had 1 snail, end up with several , with less than 6 months. i love snails. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I'm kind of feeling like the crazies are forcing me to use my fish as feeders - I'd like to post on craigslist or freecycle that people can come take my female bettas (I have too many and pet stores don't need any more). But I get flagged because I bred them. > > Aren't the "feeder" goldfish and guppies just culls from the farms? That's what I heard. So they're getting a chance at being rescued before being killed - better than being dumped in a bucket of ice and tossed out with the trash! > > And what are you supposed to do when your pet fish breed? Keep all the offspring? So guppy owners, for instance, are supposed to KEEP all the guppies their guppies give birth to? Are the AR folks going to ban all the kinds of fish that will breed accidentally, so only breeders who can find good homes for 200-400 fish are allowed to breed them? And then don't even get me started on snails! > > Do the animal rights nuts really think animals are better off if we're importing fish from overseas or catching them in the wild than for hobbyists to breed them and sell them locally? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > > Cruelty-Free World > > Reprogramming Predators > > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > > mind even more. > > > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you > > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of joe t > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > > fish eats another fish. > > > > Give me a break! > > > > > > joe t > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50781	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: crabs died

I tried every suggestion i got . I'm unsure what i did wrong. I was new with these crabs. I want to try them again soon. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50782	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: cycling tank

Patricia, Setting up a tank and leaving it set up with the filter running does nothing except use electricity. When you added the fish, the ammonia level went up, and the actual cycle would begin to start itself. Unfortunately, your fish were not able to survive through this start-up phase of the cycle. You had the right idea about cycling a tank but the incorrect methodology. To do a fishless cycle, the safest way as far as the fish are concerned, you need to add ammonia to the water until you get a reading on your test kit of 5. You will need to test each day so that you can maintain that level by adding more ammonia to bring your measurement back up to 5. When you start having to add ammonia each day, it is time to start testing your nitrites. You will see the nitrites rise each day until there are enough bacteria established in your tank to start processing enough of the nitrites to make the level go down. When you get to the point where your ammonia and nitrites are both at 0 each day, you are ready to add your fish.. Keep using the ammonia each day until the fish are added. When you add the fish, testing should show no increase of either ammonia or nitrites. The real trick to this method is to find ammonia where no detergents or other substances have been added. You may be able to find something like this hidden away on the ammonia shelf at your supermarket, but people have been saying the best place to obtain plain ammonia is at an Ace Hardware store. What happens when establishing a cycle is that ammonia is introduced from a source, the plain ammonia mentioned above or ammonia as a waste product from an animal. The bacteria necessary to convert the ammonia into nitrite are everywhere, but it takes time for them to find an ammonia source, and then establish a colony. When doing a fishless cycle, you determine the level to maintain, and artificially introduce enough ammonia to reach that level. If the source is animals, there will be a rising rate of ammonia present as it is continuously added to the water column. Most charts will represent the latter, showing a growing amount of ammonia. The ammonia will reach a peak and then start going down as the bacteria do their thing. At this point a rise in the nitrite will occur, until those bacteria begin to process it, with the measurable level going down. These bacteria will produce nitrate, which will rise much more slowly than either the ammonia or nitrites rose. There are bacteria that will remove nitrates, but they are anaerobic bacteria and they are difficult to establish and get working to remove the nitrates without other anaerobic colonizing and producing compounds that are bad for aquatic life. Fortunately, we have two ways to handle nitrates in the water--growing live plants and water changes. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:51 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: cycling tank up to 8 weeks id let my filter run. i tested my water weekly. when i put fish , theyed be in bags and theyed be in new tanks hour hour so. then when i put fish in theyed with in 3 days . --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Patricia, > > Please explain how you used to cycle your tanks. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:53 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] cycling tank > > I used to cycle my tanks , but that never worked for me. My fish would die > about everytime i did it . > > Now i never cycle my water. > > I have tanks from 1 gallon and up to 5 gallon tanks. > > I have betta's, goldfish, guppies,crabs , snails >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50783	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: sea monkies

Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50784	From: LindaS	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel

Hi Ray, I appreciate all the information you have shared in behalf of Tatoo. Maybe one day, I can digest it all, and he will have that palace. (O: I have been looking at him and Blue in a new light now. And will most likely make changes if possible to get him to that fishy palace. You are pasionate about the Betta's and it shows, I respect you for this. The truth is, it is very hard to find information about Betta's, that is why I even tried to help out Frankie's owner. I respectfully retract anything I have posted here about fish care. All life is important, and one should know the very best way to care for any pet. My Bad. Sorry. You put so much energy and caring into the suitable way to take care of a Betta. I will not say much more, except, it might be benificial for you to put this information on a post once a month or so. The reason why I knew the water was not 70, is because I have been going without a furnace for two years. I have even used candles between the two bowls to keep the water warm for them. And we do keep the house at 70 degrees now that we have a furnace, except at night. You never mentioned aquarium heaters. How do heaters and do they even work in aquariums? I'll just lurk for awhile. Thanks to Dawn and Judy too... Love, From Tatooo and Blue LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50785	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Sea monkeys are brine shrimp. Many stores sell live brine shrimp as a food for fish. Failing that, you should be able to find a store with brine shrimp eggs that you can set up a hatchery to hatch. Then you can give your fish a bonus meal of live brine shrimp for the excess. It is my understanding that they are hard to raise to adult size. I don't know, I never tried. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:47 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] sea monkies Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50786	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel

Linda, Actually, there is quite a bit of information out there on bettas. There is probably somewhere near a gazillion web sites, including the one for the International betta Congress at http://www.ibcbetas.org and I am sure there are other sites with information nearly as good or on par with that site. There are a ton of books on bettas out there. I am not familiar with a lot of those I found listed on amazon.com, but I am familiar with many of the authors. _Bettas, Gouramis and Other Anabantoids_ by Jörg Vierke is one I have and it really is a better book on anabantoids in general rather than bettas in particular. _The Betta Handbook_ (Barron's Pet Handbooks) by Robert J. Goldstein, I would presume to be good for two reasons. First, it is a Barron book, and second the author is Bob Goldstein, one who has been in the hobby forever (well, nearly) and has been writing books for many, many years. His books that I own all have good information in them. There is another book out by Bob Goldststein as well. That one is simply _Bettas_. Marshall Ostrow has also been in the hobby for a long time, and I'd trust his book to have plenty of good information in it. _Betta: Your Happy Healthy Pet_ by John H. Tullock should be another book to look at. John has a good reputation as an author, and has written a good number of articles and columns for various hobby magazines over the years on various topics. _Know Your Bettas_ by Gene Allen Lucas may be worth getting, though it is out of print. Gene is a god among betta people, and an excellent artist to boot. So, the information is out there, you just need to know how to look for it. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LindaS Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 10:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel Hi Ray, I appreciate all the information you have shared in behalf of Tatoo. Maybe one day, I can digest it all, and he will have that palace. (O: I have been looking at him and Blue in a new light now. And will most likely make changes if possible to get him to that fishy palace. You are pasionate about the Betta's and it shows, I respect you for this. The truth is, it is very hard to find information about Betta's, that is why I even tried to help out Frankie's owner. I respectfully retract anything I have posted here about fish care. All life is important, and one should know the very best way to care for any pet. My Bad. Sorry. You put so much energy and caring into the suitable way to take care of a Betta. I will not say much more, except, it might be benificial for you to put this information on a post once a month or so. The reason why I knew the water was not 70, is because I have been going without a furnace for two years. I have even used candles between the two bowls to keep the water warm for them. And we do keep the house at 70 degrees now that we have a furnace, except at night. You never mentioned aquarium heaters. How do heaters and do they even work in aquariums? I'll just lurk for awhile. Thanks to Dawn and Judy too... Love, From Tatooo and Blue LinS

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50787	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Cool thing about the "sea monkey" kits is that they have food for them... I have no idea what brine shrimp eat, I would assume tiny algaes but not sure. I had a sea monkey kit and got them to grow pretty decent sized... Then I started raising brine shrimp for my fish, not so easy to get to full-sized but then again I never really tried... Lauren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50788	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

You can order them online. Only one company makes them. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] sea monkies Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50789	From: tiggernut24@yahoo.com	Date: 3/13/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Sea monkeys are very large brine shrimp, and they may be a special type. Yours, Villandra Thorsdottir Austin, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 8:59 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] sea monkies Sea monkeys are brine shrimp. Many stores sell live brine shrimp as a food for fish. Failing that, you should be able to find a store with brine shrimp eggs that you can set up a hatchery to hatch. Then you can give your fish a bonus meal of live brine shrimp for the excess. It is my understanding that they are hard to raise to adult size. I don't know, I never tried. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 9:47 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] sea monkies Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50790	From: haecklers	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: crabs died

Did you search them online and get a positive ID on the kind they are? I've read some crabs sold in pet stores as freshwater crabs will actually die in freshwater. Some are starving when you get them, too. The consensus I got was that most crabs are really hard to keep. If you like that sort of thing, there are a lot of different kinds of crayfish for freshwater. Some they call "lobsters" but they are really crayfish. I've seen them in red, orange, blue, and some that are multi-colored. Then there are the freshwater shrimp, which are also pretty cool aquarium additions. Even the ghost shrimp they sell 3/$1 are pretty long-lived in a tank with good water, and are fun to watch. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > I tried every suggestion i got . I'm unsure what i did wrong. I was new with these crabs. I want to try them again soon. > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50791	From: Lauren Moore	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Try seamonkeys.com. They've got them with the little tank and stuff... Lauren On Sun, Mar 13, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Patricia Somewhere < patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > > Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. > And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage > friends. > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50792	From: haecklers	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

The brine shrimp they sell are the same thing, but you'd need food and the aquarium salt to keep them going. You can use "First Bites" for food. They usually sell it in a plastic pouch thing near the fish food (if they carry it). If you want the whole sea monkeys kit, Toys R Us has them around here and lately they've been on sale for around $10. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. > > > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50793	From: LindaS	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: website is not available

Ray, Wanted you to know before too many followers try it the http://www.ibcbetas.org is no longer available. LinS Adding to this message before posting: Thank you Linda for the heads-up concerning this IBC Betta site no longer being available. That's a real set back for those Betta hobbyists wanting to learn more about their fish. Ray - Moderator

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50794	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

I wonder if the person who wrote this still realizes that they have incriminated themselves if they were to carry out what this article describes. How can you stop predation and killing and etc when they talk about eradicating snakes and alligators (among other things)? They would, in turn, violate their own "laws" or "rules" of no killing by eradicating anything from existence, thus blowing a huge hole in their theory. I wonder also, how they would attempt to control over population of any animal? Take away snakes then how do you control the rodents that breed much more quickly than the snakes, especially if you're not allowed to kill anything? These people are a bunch of kooks and lack any kind of real understanding of this planet or even a Bible. I notice that many of these sorts of people use the Bible as their foundation to stand on with morals and such. The Bible talks about animal sacrifice, talks about feeding meat (real meat) to people, etc. I guess these people would have to dismiss God as a killer then too? They are just a bunch of extremist nuts who should, themselves, be locked away for the safety of the rest of the world. This reminds me of the venture PETA took in trying to have fish renamed as "sea kittens" so that people could no longer fish. They claimed that the act of fishing is cruel and compared it to tying a cat on a rope behind a car and driving off with it. This world is full of sick minds... this is all just more examples of that. Scary! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > Cruelty-Free World > Reprogramming Predators > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > mind even more. > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of joe t > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > fish eats another fish. > > Give me a break! > > > joe t >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50795	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: website is not available

The site probably never was available, I misspelled the site name. It should be www.ibcbettas.org. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LindaS Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 12:01 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] website is not available Ray, Wanted you to know before too many followers try it the http://www.ibcbetas.org is no longer available. LinS Adding to this message before posting: Thank you Linda for the heads-up concerning this IBC Betta site no longer being available. That's a real set back for those Betta hobbyists wanting to learn more about their fish. Ray - Moderator ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50796	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

Dawn, Take tomorrow off. Don't let such things worry you. Celebrate International Eat an Animal for PETA Day. Perhaps some beef tartar, or maybe a filet mignon wrapped in bacon. Perhaps a nice meal of Sautéed Veal Scallops in Sour Cream Sauce (Kalvefilet Med Sur Flo) [it is a Scandinavian dish]. If you need to get your blood circulating, however, take a look at http://www.petakillsanimals.com/. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 4:07 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? I wonder if the person who wrote this still realizes that they have incriminated themselves if they were to carry out what this article describes. How can you stop predation and killing and etc when they talk about eradicating snakes and alligators (among other things)? They would, in turn, violate their own "laws" or "rules" of no killing by eradicating anything from existence, thus blowing a huge hole in their theory. I wonder also, how they would attempt to control over population of any animal? Take away snakes then how do you control the rodents that breed much more quickly than the snakes, especially if you're not allowed to kill anything? These people are a bunch of kooks and lack any kind of real understanding of this planet or even a Bible. I notice that many of these sorts of people use the Bible as their foundation to stand on with morals and such. The Bible talks about animal sacrifice, talks about feeding meat (real meat) to people, etc. I guess these people would have to dismiss God as a killer then too? They are just a bunch of extremist nuts who should, themselves, be locked away for the safety of the rest of the world. This reminds me of the venture PETA took in trying to have fish renamed as "sea kittens" so that people could no longer fish. They claimed that the act of fishing is cruel and compared it to tying a cat on a rope behind a car and driving off with it. This world is full of sick minds... this is all just more examples of that. Scary! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > Cruelty-Free World > Reprogramming Predators > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > mind even more. > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after you > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of joe t > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > fish eats another fish. > > Give me a break! > > > joe t >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50797	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Re: website is not available

this is how i get to it http://www.ibcbettas.org/smp/index.html ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 4:19 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] website is not available The site probably never was available, I misspelled the site name. It should be www.ibcbettas.org. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of LindaS Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 12:01 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] website is not available Ray, Wanted you to know before too many followers try it the http://www.ibcbetas.org is no longer available. LinS Adding to this message before posting: Thank you Linda for the heads-up concerning this IBC Betta site no longer being available. That's a real set back for those Betta hobbyists wanting to learn more about their fish. Ray - Moderator ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50798	From: simone	Date: 3/14/2011
Subject: Newt Question

Hello I have a rough-skinned paddle tailed newt given to me by a friend 4 days ago. She had a pair and one died (she said that it climbed up on land and dried up) I think the surviving one is a male. Well a while back her power went out and she brought it and her reptiles down from her reptile room and put them around her gas fireplace so they wouldn't freeze, but after her power came back on the newt got forgotten about, so he didn't get fed for a week or so. Will he be ok? I have been feeding him but haven't seen him eat. She had been feeding him Newt bites (pellets). I have given him that and I have tried frozen blood worms.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50799	From: Ray	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Tatooo's Fish Palace or Hovel

Hi Linda, First, I'd like you to know that I tried replying to this message you posted below, right after I approved it, in wanting to let you know that I found it very encouraging -- but I sometimes have problems with my computer sending long emails, and that was one of those times. I'm glad to see that you were open to receiving all the points I made in trying to enable you to understand better and more proper methods of keeping fish. I'm even happier just to see that you're considering making some changes, and may get Tattoo (and Blue?) their own "palace(s)." If fish are under our care, they deserve to best care we can give them. By your now seeing you fish in a different light, from the recommendations I made using better methods, I'm glad that you are understanding what I was trying to get across to you in my messages, and why. By your present stance, I know that you realize that I mean only the best for you and your fish and have not been trying to degrade you. As you've seen by the replies from everyone, there are better methods of fish care than you were first under the impression of; it's great that you can replace some of yours with them, for the good of your fish. Yes, I'm passionate about ALL fish, which is but one reason why I'd like you to succeed, not to mention your own satisfaction with them in hopefully a long term of keeping them prospering. Please do consider all the points we've made -- they're only for your and your fish's own good. Yes, good information about Betta's, and fish in general, is not easy to find unless you know where to look. Fortunately, you've landed in the right place here, for starters, as there are many members who are very experienced with taking good care of fish -- I'm sure they'll be very pleased to be able to guide you through this, and I'll even continue with it as well. Additionally, there are a number of excellent aquarium books being offered today, some general reference books and some specifically on Betta's. While there are loads of fish information on line -- which would seem to be the most convenient source -- Unless you know a subject before hand (and then, you wouldn't really need to search), there's no way for anyone not familiar with a subject to know whether that information is reliable or not. There are many fish related web sites and groups, some of those sites appearing to be very authoritative, but a lot of those sites have very erroneous and/or misleading information since the web page owner may not necessarily know the subjects thoroughly enough to be able to be factual, even if he appears to know. When coming across sites like this during a Google search, your best bet many times it just to take the info with a grain of salt, until you can obtain more substantial information. Unfortunately, there are many more do-it-yourself "authoritative-looking" web sites that, wanting to appear knowledgeable, may tend to copy the erroneous information from these previous sites they've seen, and use it as their own not knowing the subject well enough either. I guess it comes down to the old saying -- believe only half of what you see and nothing of what you hear. In other words, be cautious of what you read until you find out what works best. I notice you are retracting things you've mentioned here, which is a pleasant surprise in this unexpected about-face. It's encouraging to see that you're realizing some of your methods leave something to be desired, and I'm sure your fish will thank you for it when they receive better care. I know some of your methods were not intentionally adverse to the fish's best interests, but at least you're willing to learn better ones. I appreciate your recommendation for me to post all the proper fish care methods every month, that I've just spelled out to you. But, repeating such long dialogs every four weeks is just too demanding on my typing skills. What I and others have recommended has been logged in the archives for anyone interested to retrieve if they so desire to do so, should they have the needs and interest. Meanwhile, I'll just have to try to address these various individual issues as they come up. I don't know what section of the country you live in or how your Winters are, but going without a furnace for two years had to be quite rough. I can see, by your attempts to keep your fish warm with candles during those times, that you do really care for your fish. I'm happy for you, that you now have a furnace to be able to keep comfortable in this season. As I've already said though, your fish are not very comfortable at 70 o. No, you're absolutely right, I never mentioned aquarium heaters. To begin with, a bowl is far to small to be able to use a heater with. Then, I just assumed that anyone in the hobby has already been exposed to the basic aquarium equipment seen in pet shops and local fish store -- tanks, filters, lights (call them also hoods or reflectors) and heaters. My apologies for not mentioning heaters. Yes, they work very well; they've been in use in the hobby for at least 60 or more years (previously, other methods of hearing tanks were used). They come in different size wattages (for different sized aquariums) and have their own thermostat which maintains the heat at a certain temperature that you set it at. As with anything man-made, it pays not to skimp on quality and price on this piece of equipment, especially as your fish are totally dependent upon it. One of the better ones I could recommend would be a submersible one marketed as the Jaeger heater. When you ready to buy one, feel free to just ask us and we'll tell you what size heater you need based on the tank size. Normally, it's recommended to use a heater rated at 3 Watts per gallon for average use. Thank you for taking everything said here into consideration. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, I appreciate all the information you have shared in behalf of Tattoo. Maybe one day, I can digest it all, and he will have that palace. > (O: I have been looking at him and Blue in a new light now. And will most likely make changes if possible to get him to that fishy palace. > You are passionate about the Betta's and it shows, I respect you for this. The truth is, it is very hard to find information about Betta's, that is why I even tried to help out Frankie's owner. > I respectfully retract anything I have posted here about fish care. > All life is important, and one should know the very best way to care for any pet. > My Bad. > Sorry. > You put so much energy and caring into the suitable way to take care of a Betta. I will not say much more, except, it might be beneficial for you to put this information on a post once a month or so. > The reason why I knew the water was not 70, is because I have been going without a furnace for two years. I have even used candles between the two bowls to keep the water warm for them. And we do keep the house at 70 degrees now that we have a furnace, except at night. > You never mentioned aquarium heaters. How do heaters and do they even work in aquariums? > I'll just lurk for awhile. > Thanks to Dawn and Judy too... > Love, From Tatooo and Blue > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50800	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Newt Question

Hello:    Try feeding the Newt live black worms (or the red ones, most pet stores have them).  Offer them in the water.  Live foods are usually good stimuli for getting newts to eat.  You could offer earthworms as well.    Once they start eating they will usually eat whatever is offered.     Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: simone <oreotgoat@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 10:03:51 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Newt Question   Hello I have a rough-skinned paddle tailed newt given to me by a friend 4 days ago. She had a pair and one died (she said that it climbed up on land and dried up) I think the surviving one is a male. Well a while back her power went out and she brought it and her reptiles down from her reptile room and put them around her gas fireplace so they wouldn't freeze, but after her power came back on the newt got forgotten about, so he didn't get fed for a week or so. Will he be ok? I have been feeding him but haven't seen him eat. She had been feeding him Newt bites (pellets). I have given him that and I have tried frozen blood worms. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50801	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: Newt Question

Try offering the newt live food. There could be many reasons why he isn't eating... lack of strength, not finding it (they don't have real good eyesight), and even too cold of a water or air temp can cause them to stop eating. Knowing what your water params are in his tank, temp, etc. will help sort things out, too. Crickets (if he's still small then get small crickets) and live black worms are both favorite staple diets for newts. Does he have any other animals in the tank with him? How big is he? How big is his tank? The more info you can provide about him and his environment the easier it will be to suggest solutions for you. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "simone" <oreotgoat@...> wrote: > > Hello I have a rough-skinned paddle tailed newt given to me by a friend 4 days ago. She had a pair and one died (she said that it climbed up on land and dried up) I think the surviving one is a male. Well a while back her power went out and she brought it and her reptiles down from her reptile room and put them around her gas fireplace so they wouldn't freeze, but after her power came back on the newt got forgotten about, so he didn't get fed for a week or so. Will he be ok? I have been feeding him but haven't seen him eat. She had been feeding him Newt bites (pellets). I have given him that and I have tried frozen blood worms. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50802	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

Steve, Thank you for this 2nd link, as sickening as that is. I didn't mean to get so upset over the first one. Sometimes hearing stuff like this just gets under the skin and irritates me to no end. My husband and I discussed it last night over dinner (didn't help my appetite any) and came around to the topic of how that article was worded. They purposely make it difficult for the average person to follow the strings of long words they use, and in doing so, often enough win people over because they only understand "parts" of the article and those simplified parts "sound good". I noticed there was an email address contact on the bottom of that page, my husband suggested I write a letter asking all of the questions he and I were asking each other about the article. If I do this and get a response, I would be more than happy to share it with anyone who is interested. Also, if anyone here has a specific question they would like to ask the person who wrote that nasty article, let me know and I will work those questions into my letter as well. I think the first 2 questions should reference if they have ever received psychiatric care and what planet they come from, lol. I have always wondered how anyone could actually believe things like that are possible or could be practical? Any opinions? I have seen and heard of extremists before... but I think this one tops them all. Its hard not to let it affect me when I care so much about life, our planet, people and the animals. I am calm now, just still feeling quite disturbed by what I read. Thanks again for posting it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Take tomorrow off. Don't let such things worry you. Celebrate International > Eat an Animal for PETA Day. Perhaps some beef tartar, or maybe a filet > mignon wrapped in bacon. Perhaps a nice meal of Sautéed Veal Scallops in > Sour Cream Sauce (Kalvefilet Med Sur Flo) [it is a Scandinavian dish]. > > If you need to get your blood circulating, however, take a look at > http://www.petakillsanimals.com/. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 4:07 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > I wonder if the person who wrote this still realizes that they have > incriminated themselves if they were to carry out what this article > describes. How can you stop predation and killing and etc when they talk > about eradicating snakes and alligators (among other things)? They would, > in turn, violate their own "laws" or "rules" of no killing by eradicating > anything from existence, thus blowing a huge hole in their theory. > I wonder also, how they would attempt to control over population of any > animal? Take away snakes then how do you control the rodents that breed > much more quickly than the snakes, especially if you're not allowed to kill > anything? These people are a bunch of kooks and lack any kind of real > understanding of this planet or even a Bible. I notice that many of these > sorts of people use the Bible as their foundation to stand on with morals > and such. The Bible talks about animal sacrifice, talks about feeding meat > (real meat) to people, etc. I guess these people would have to dismiss God > as a killer then too? They are just a bunch of extremist nuts who should, > themselves, be locked away for the safety of the rest of the world. > > This reminds me of the venture PETA took in trying to have fish renamed as > "sea kittens" so that people could no longer fish. They claimed that the > act of fishing is cruel and compared it to tying a cat on a rope behind a > car and driving off with it. > > This world is full of sick minds... this is all just more examples of that. > Scary! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > > Cruelty-Free World > > Reprogramming Predators > > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > > mind even more. > > > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after > you > > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of joe t > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > > fish eats another fish. > > > > Give me a break! > > > > > > joe t > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50803	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: crabs died

They was grey with yellowish legs , --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Did you search them online and get a positive ID on the kind they are? I've read some crabs sold in pet stores as freshwater crabs will actually die in freshwater. Some are starving when you get them, too. > > The consensus I got was that most crabs are really hard to keep. If you like that sort of thing, there are a lot of different kinds of crayfish for freshwater. Some they call "lobsters" but they are really crayfish. I've seen them in red, orange, blue, and some that are multi-colored. Then there are the freshwater shrimp, which are also pretty cool aquarium additions. Even the ghost shrimp they sell 3/$1 are pretty long-lived in a tank with good water, and are fun to watch. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@> wrote: > > > > I tried every suggestion i got . I'm unsure what i did wrong. I was new with these crabs. I want to try them again soon. > > > > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50804	From: Ray	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

If not all of these AR people are strictly vegetarians, then they must eat what they please, just like the rest of us. If it's their belief then, that all animals are on the same level as humans are, then they must also believe that animals should also eat what they please. By this, then they would have to find it quite permissible for sharks to take a few of them "out to lunch" at those times they going swimming at the beach. By the same token, it should be perfectly fine with them for anyone in Asia to be taken by a tiger, anyone in the African bush to be taken by lions, anyone in South America to be taken by a jaguar, anyone in Yellowstone to be taken by a grizzly or anyone in Alaska to be taken by a polar bear -- with absolutely no interferance by anyone else if we are witness to these predations -- else we'd be interferring with these animals' rights. After all, they need to eat, and who are we to take that right away from them, or not accept that they're not at our level in being able to eat what they please to. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > AR people are, succinctly, nuts. What they mainly do is get involved based > on emotion rather than facts. When they spout what they call facts, you can > dig all around, yet never find a source for the supposed fact, other than in > AR sources, which do not use cites for such information. Some say it is from > lack of B-12 in the vegan diet many of them eat. B-12 has several sources, > but, apparently, the only B-12 that does humans any good is derived from > animals. Other forms of B-12 are not very usable. A lack of B-12 affects > brain function. Some simply say it makes them stupid. > > However, not all AR believers practice veganism. It may be that they do not > wish to see other humans having fun. > > What it comes down to is, that, for whatever reason, these people fell that > people should not own animals, not profit from animals, that all animals are > on the same level as humans are. > > If you like, I can send you a number of links off list so that you can start > to do some research into this area, and it is an area all people who keep > animals should have some knowledge of. To start out, though, the most > powerful and aggressive group right now is HSUS (The Humane Society of the > United States). To get their story from their side, you can look at > http://www.humanesociety.org To get another view of HSUS, go to > http://humanewatch.org Do note that all the information on the latter site > is from publically available sources. HSUS hates Humane Watch, but not once > yet has it refuted anything that Humane Watch has posted. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 6:24 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > I'm kind of feeling like the crazies are forcing me to use my fish as > feeders - I'd like to post on craigslist or freecycle that people can come > take my female bettas (I have too many and pet stores don't need any more). > But I get flagged because I bred them. > > Aren't the "feeder" goldfish and guppies just culls from the farms? That's > what I heard. So they're getting a chance at being rescued before being > killed - better than being dumped in a bucket of ice and tossed out with the > trash! > > And what are you supposed to do when your pet fish breed? Keep all the > offspring? So guppy owners, for instance, are supposed to KEEP all the > guppies their guppies give birth to? Are the AR folks going to ban all the > kinds of fish that will breed accidentally, so only breeders who can find > good homes for 200-400 fish are allowed to breed them? And then don't even > get me started on snails! > > Do the animal rights nuts really think animals are better off if we're > importing fish from overseas or catching them in the wild than for hobbyists > to breed them and sell them locally? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > > Cruelty-Free World > > Reprogramming Predators > > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > > mind even more. > > > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after > you > > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of joe t > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > > fish eats another fish. > > > > Give me a break! > > > > > > joe t > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50805	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime?

Dawn, I do not know how deep you got into this, but do note that there are a number of out of context Biblical passages that are used to buttress their arguments. "It's in the Bible, so it must be so." line of argument. I do not know what kind, if any, of answers you would get from writing, unless you spin yourself as a lost soul trying to find your way here. Then, they might leech on to you in such a manner that you would wish you had never written. If you do write and get a reply, I'd be interested in reading what they say, along with the question. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 3:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? Steve, Thank you for this 2nd link, as sickening as that is. I didn't mean to get so upset over the first one. Sometimes hearing stuff like this just gets under the skin and irritates me to no end. My husband and I discussed it last night over dinner (didn't help my appetite any) and came around to the topic of how that article was worded. They purposely make it difficult for the average person to follow the strings of long words they use, and in doing so, often enough win people over because they only understand "parts" of the article and those simplified parts "sound good". I noticed there was an email address contact on the bottom of that page, my husband suggested I write a letter asking all of the questions he and I were asking each other about the article. If I do this and get a response, I would be more than happy to share it with anyone who is interested. Also, if anyone here has a specific question they would like to ask the person who wrote that nasty article, let me know and I will work those questions into my letter as well. I think the first 2 questions should reference if they have ever received psychiatric care and what planet they come from, lol. I have always wondered how anyone could actually believe things like that are possible or could be practical? Any opinions? I have seen and heard of extremists before... but I think this one tops them all. Its hard not to let it affect me when I care so much about life, our planet, people and the animals. I am calm now, just still feeling quite disturbed by what I read. Thanks again for posting it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Take tomorrow off. Don't let such things worry you. Celebrate International > Eat an Animal for PETA Day. Perhaps some beef tartar, or maybe a filet > mignon wrapped in bacon. Perhaps a nice meal of Sautéed Veal Scallops in > Sour Cream Sauce (Kalvefilet Med Sur Flo) [it is a Scandinavian dish]. > > If you need to get your blood circulating, however, take a look at > http://www.petakillsanimals.com/. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 4:07 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > I wonder if the person who wrote this still realizes that they have > incriminated themselves if they were to carry out what this article > describes. How can you stop predation and killing and etc when they talk > about eradicating snakes and alligators (among other things)? They would, > in turn, violate their own "laws" or "rules" of no killing by eradicating > anything from existence, thus blowing a huge hole in their theory. > I wonder also, how they would attempt to control over population of any > animal? Take away snakes then how do you control the rodents that breed > much more quickly than the snakes, especially if you're not allowed to kill > anything? These people are a bunch of kooks and lack any kind of real > understanding of this planet or even a Bible. I notice that many of these > sorts of people use the Bible as their foundation to stand on with morals > and such. The Bible talks about animal sacrifice, talks about feeding meat > (real meat) to people, etc. I guess these people would have to dismiss God > as a killer then too? They are just a bunch of extremist nuts who should, > themselves, be locked away for the safety of the rest of the world. > > This reminds me of the venture PETA took in trying to have fish renamed as > "sea kittens" so that people could no longer fish. They claimed that the > act of fishing is cruel and compared it to tying a cat on a rope behind a > car and driving off with it. > > This world is full of sick minds... this is all just more examples of that. > Scary! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > You really want your mind blown? Take a look at this: Blueprint for a > > Cruelty-Free World > > Reprogramming Predators > > http://www.hedweb.com/abolitionist-project/reprogramming-predators.html > > http://tinyurl.com/yagl7fr > > > > This links to another site, www.abolitionist.com, which should twist your > > mind even more. > > > > There are some real whack jobs out there in AR land. (I think that after > you > > pass Disneyland, you take a hard left to find it.) > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of joe t > > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:52 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: UK: Live Feeding A Crime? > > > > GOOD GRIEF!! These things are getting more and more absurd. Some one had > > better let Mother Nature know that she's breaking man's law everythime a > > fish eats another fish. > > > > Give me a break! > > > > > > joe t > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50806	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/15/2011
Subject: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50807	From: Ray	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

Of course, this makes absolutely no sense at all, and there was obvious no forethought at all being put into this bill. I find it extremely hard to believe the the Vermont General Assembly would even take their State Representative Ann D. Pugh's ludicrous proposal seriously at all, and should have kicked her out on her ear. Three quarters of Vermont's agricultural revenue comes from commerce of dairy products, beef cattle, chicken eggs, turkeys and hogs. Does she propose to wash Vermont's economy completely down the drain? Most of her constituents will be awfully hard pressed to be able to obtain eggs for their breakfast when chicken farmers will be limited only to 5 chickens. Aside from such a major economic disaster, there obviously wouldn't be any local fish stores as no shop could have more than 5 fish on hand at any one time. Even considering all-species pet shops; their best income producer is dogs -- they could not carry any more that 5 dogs, TOTAL of all kinds, as all dogs are ONE species, and then, would not be able to carry any more animals (fish included) of any kind since their quota of animals would be exceeded if they did. Maybe these pet shops could offer a larger variety by housing two dogs, one cat, one bird and one fish < g >. Perhaps the 59 year old Representative Pugh's hormones are wreaking havoc with her brain! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50808	From: haecklers	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

You left out people who have a backyard flock of chickens - you get around laws against having farm animals in the suburbs by declaring them pets. Not to mention ducks at an outdoor pond... Wonder if Koi count? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50809	From: Ray	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

Hi R, Not sure if you're referring to me or \\Steve// here, since you mention backyard flocks of chickens (added to the list I've included?), yet replied to \\Steve's// post. In any case, there's undoubtedly a lot I left out, even as I was thinking a few minutes later on it after I posted it. Doesn't matter if you declare any animals as pets, as you're saying. This is especially where these nuts want to eliminate numerous animals from "accumulating;" at the level of the pet-owner, but effecting anyone else owning any kind of animal. As I read this bill -- although I may be missing something -- I see it as a blanket statement covering everybody owning animals -- which would include fishkeepers as well as farmers (as \\Steve// stated), as well as animal breeders of any kind, pet shops, horse ranches, dairy farms -- you name it. Repr. Pugh has put absolutely no thought into this. Yes, Koi are animals, so Koi would naturally be included in this -- as well as domestic ducks. Wild ducks on a pond would be exempt since no one owns them, many being migratory. If you think $4 per gallon gas is high, wait until all of the nearly 1500 dairy farms in Vermont are reduced to having only 5 cows each. Milk for your kids will be at least $25 a gallon -- IF you can find it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > You left out people who have a backyard flock of chickens - you get around laws against having farm animals in the suburbs by declaring them pets. Not to mention ducks at an outdoor pond... > Wonder if Koi count? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > > > \\Steve// > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50810	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, asking her to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will post the original email and her reply when I receive an answer. If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email address is apugh@... and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more likely it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to "kill it" go unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a solution. Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also designed to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. Pugh? A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of a bill than to kill it altogether. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50811	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

Dawn, I do not know where you are from, but the rep is from Burlington, one of the three "cities" in Vermont. Once you get away from the University of Vermont, there, it is mostly single family homes. The few times I have been there, I do not recall seeing a single apartment building, never mind complex. If there needs to be a limitation of animals that one has, it should be handled on a local basis, and not be made to be a felony animal cruelty charge. Also keep in mind that Vermont is a largely rural state. Lots of room for lots of domesticated animals as well as wildlife. One thing to keep in mind is that animal hoarding is a rising star on the Animal Rights (AR) movement. While they are really against any one owning any animals, they make an argument here that one person or family can only take care of a very limited number of animals. The smaller they can make this number, the better they feel they have done. You may want to watch a show on Animal Planet called Confessions: Animal Hoarding usually followed by a name or two. ARs are working very hard to get hoarding into the book that describes all the recognized psychiatric disorders. So, not only do you get all your animals stolen from you, and become ineligible to own animals any more (part of the usual punishment they go for) but you may need to go see a shrink for an unspecified length of time, or end up in a mental facility. Brings to mind the song "They're Coming to Take Me Away" by Napoleon XIV aka Jerry Samuels. They're coming to take me away, HA HA They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA To the funny farm Where life is beautiful all the time And I'll be happy to see Those nice, young men In their clean, white coats And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa! \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:10 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, asking her to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will post the original email and her reply when I receive an answer. If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email address is apugh@... and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more likely it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to "kill it" go unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a solution. Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also designed to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. Pugh? A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of a bill than to kill it altogether. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the introduced legislation (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50812	From: haecklers	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Hydra in my fry tank!

I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could there be small ones? If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are digesting? Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50813	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Hello:    Wal-Mart has them.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Patricia Somewhere <patriciasomewhere@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, March 13, 2011 9:47:22 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] sea monkies   Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50814	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Hello:     It is possible they are a different species or at the very least collected from a different locale.  Some regions produce larger or more hardy animals than the same species in another region.  I'm not sure, just food for thought.  I haven't really looked at Sea Monkeys though I've read they were Brine Shrimp.  I guess I'll have to check 'em out myself.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, March 13, 2011 11:24:19 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] sea monkies   Cool thing about the "sea monkey" kits is that they have food for them... I have no idea what brine shrimp eat, I would assume tiny algaes but not sure. I had a sea monkey kit and got them to grow pretty decent sized... Then I started raising brine shrimp for my fish, not so easy to get to full-sized but then again I never really tried... Lauren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50815	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Can you get pictures of the Hydra catching the fry? Please try! Charles H >I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry >because I thought there were a lot fewer than there should have >been. The hydra were all attached to a rock so I removed it. Will >that get rid of the problem or are there likely more hydra on the >Java Moss? > >I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock >but could there be small ones? > >If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > >Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and >are digesting? > >Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > >I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50816	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/16/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Get some Flubendazole from Charles Harrison. It kills them without disturbing anything in 2 days and they don't come back. Charles H >I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I >was looking at the fry because I thought there >were a lot fewer than there should have been. >The hydra were all attached to a rock so I >removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or >are there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > >I looked closely and didn't see any the size of >the ones on the rock but could there be small >ones? > >If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > >Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the >fry they caught and are digesting? > >Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > >I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.htm -- l

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50817	From: haecklers	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Sorry Charles, my camera's zoom doesn't work well - I can't even get a good image of the hydra just sitting there. Ironically as I was reading last night I found that pearl gourami eat hydra. That's what I have in the fry tank! I wonder how big they have to be to start eating the hydra?? Some of mine are around 3/4"... I was getting low on infusoria and I got some from an outdoor pond, I think that was my mistake! Note to others, don't get infusoria from outdoors!!!! I removed the rock that they were anchored to, and I haven't seen any in there since then, so I'm hoping that will be the end of it. If gourami eat hydra the larger fry (I've got two spawns in there, some are 4 weeks old and some are 2 weeks) may be already eating the smaller hydra. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > Can you get pictures of the Hydra catching the fry? > > Please try! > > Charles H > > > >I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry > >because I thought there were a lot fewer than there should have > >been. The hydra were all attached to a rock so I removed it. Will > >that get rid of the problem or are there likely more hydra on the > >Java Moss? > > > >I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock > >but could there be small ones? > > > >If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > > >Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and > >are digesting? > > > >Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > > >I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > -- > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50818	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

I thought I would provide an update. I have dealt with many politicians over the years, for various reasons. Never... never before, have I come across one as evasive and vague as this Ann Pugh. Wow, she is something! I began by writing to her, asking how this bill will affect fish hobbyists. Her first reply was blunt... "Thank you for your email. I hope you will understand that given that we don't have staff, I am unable to respond to emails with out full contact information. Sincerely, Representative Ann Pugh 67 Bayberry Lane South Burlington, VT 05403 (or) State House 115 State Street Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 802-828-2228 800-322-5616 (VT only)" So... I wrote back, gave her all of my contact info and stated that I hoped it was enough for her to answer my questions. This morning I got this reply... "Thank you for your information The bill was introduced on behalf of a group of 12 graders as part of a class in political science/civic engagement. Sincerely, Representative Ann Pugh 67 Bayberry Lane South Burlington, VT 05403 (or) State House 115 State Street Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 802-828-2228 800-322-5616 (VT only)" I have emailed her again, asking again how this bill will affect fish hobbyists specifically. We'll see what kind of answer I get, if any. Because I live in Wisconsin there is very little I can do except ask the questions and accept the answers given, but... to anyone here who lives in Vermont... I would strongly suggest looking deeper into this. I think its time to call Senators and ask them what is going on and how to best deal with this, or... even better, contact the media and let them start asking the questions. I would be more than happy to forward these emails from her if someone wants to initiate the contact elsewhere. What a load of crap! (sorry about the language...this just makes me very angry) I will keep you all posted if I hear from her again. I am considering calling her next. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > I do not know where you are from, but the rep is from Burlington, one of the > three "cities" in Vermont. Once you get away from the University of Vermont, > there, it is mostly single family homes. The few times I have been there, I > do not recall seeing a single apartment building, never mind complex. If > there needs to be a limitation of animals that one has, it should be handled > on a local basis, and not be made to be a felony animal cruelty charge. > > Also keep in mind that Vermont is a largely rural state. Lots of room for > lots of domesticated animals as well as wildlife. > > One thing to keep in mind is that animal hoarding is a rising star on the > Animal Rights (AR) movement. While they are really against any one owning > any animals, they make an argument here that one person or family can only > take care of a very limited number of animals. The smaller they can make > this number, the better they feel they have done. > > You may want to watch a show on Animal Planet called Confessions: Animal > Hoarding usually followed by a name or two. > > ARs are working very hard to get hoarding into the book that describes all > the recognized psychiatric disorders. So, not only do you get all your > animals stolen from you, and become ineligible to own animals any more (part > of the usual punishment they go for) but you may need to go see a shrink for > an unspecified length of time, or end up in a mental facility. Brings to > mind the song "They're Coming to Take Me Away" by Napoleon XIV aka Jerry > Samuels. > > They're coming to take me away, HA HA > They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA > To the funny farm > Where life is beautiful all the time > And I'll be happy to see > Those nice, young men > In their clean, white coats > And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa! > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:10 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced > > I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, asking her > to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will post the > original email and her reply when I receive an answer. > If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email address is > apugh@... and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. > The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more likely > it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. > > One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a > legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both > their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and > say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as > uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even > realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to "kill it" go > unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a > solution. > Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT > bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep > everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, > which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive > keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also designed > to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The > specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem > species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. Pugh? > > A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of a bill > than to kill it altogether. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a > bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 > V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal > hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the > introduced legislation > (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: > http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more > than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went > and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like > that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of > this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have > more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming > around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the > statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light > of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > > > \\Steve// > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50819	From: reneap7040	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@...> wrote: > > Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. > What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. > The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. > I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. > I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. > I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. > Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. > I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. > If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. > Best, > LinS >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50820	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

ok, ty --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >       Hello: >    Wal-Mart has them. >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Patricia Somewhere <patriciasomewhere@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, March 13, 2011 9:47:22 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] sea monkies > >   > Does any body know where i can buy sea monkeys? I loved them as a child. And > wanting too share them with my nieces and some of their mid teenage friends. > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/ > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50821	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

whats a hydra ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could there be small ones? If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are digesting? Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50822	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

I don't see why she would need FULL contact info just to push "reply" in her email and send a response back... Definitely evasive sounding to me. Sounds like she was hoping you would just give up so she didn't have to answer any of your questions instead. Amber On 3/17/2011 9:41 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > I thought I would provide an update. > I have dealt with many politicians over the years, for various > reasons. Never... never before, have I come across one as evasive and > vague as this Ann Pugh. Wow, she is something! > I began by writing to her, asking how this bill will affect fish > hobbyists. Her first reply was blunt... > "Thank you for your email. I hope you will understand that given that > we don't have staff, I am unable to respond to emails with out full > contact information. > > Sincerely, > > Representative Ann Pugh > 67 Bayberry Lane > South Burlington, VT 05403 > (or) > State House > 115 State Street > Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 > 802-828-2228 > 800-322-5616 (VT only)" > > So... I wrote back, gave her all of my contact info and stated that I > hoped it was enough for her to answer my questions. This morning I got > this reply... > "Thank you for your information The bill was introduced on behalf of a > group of 12 graders as part of a class in political science/civic > engagement. > > Sincerely, > > Representative Ann Pugh > 67 Bayberry Lane > South Burlington, VT 05403 > (or) > State House > 115 State Street > Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 > 802-828-2228 > 800-322-5616 (VT only)" > > I have emailed her again, asking again how this bill will affect fish > hobbyists specifically. We'll see what kind of answer I get, if any. > Because I live in Wisconsin there is very little I can do except ask > the questions and accept the answers given, but... to anyone here who > lives in Vermont... I would strongly suggest looking deeper into this. > I think its time to call Senators and ask them what is going on and > how to best deal with this, or... even better, contact the media and > let them start asking the questions. I would be more than happy to > forward these emails from her if someone wants to initiate the contact > elsewhere. > What a load of crap! (sorry about the language...this just makes me > very angry) > I will keep you all posted if I hear from her again. I am considering > calling her next. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > I do not know where you are from, but the rep is from Burlington, > one of the > > three "cities" in Vermont. Once you get away from the University of > Vermont, > > there, it is mostly single family homes. The few times I have been > there, I > > do not recall seeing a single apartment building, never mind complex. If > > there needs to be a limitation of animals that one has, it should be > handled > > on a local basis, and not be made to be a felony animal cruelty charge. > > > > Also keep in mind that Vermont is a largely rural state. Lots of > room for > > lots of domesticated animals as well as wildlife. > > > > One thing to keep in mind is that animal hoarding is a rising star > on the > > Animal Rights (AR) movement. While they are really against any one > owning > > any animals, they make an argument here that one person or family > can only > > take care of a very limited number of animals. The smaller they can make > > this number, the better they feel they have done. > > > > You may want to watch a show on Animal Planet called Confessions: Animal > > Hoarding usually followed by a name or two. > > > > ARs are working very hard to get hoarding into the book that > describes all > > the recognized psychiatric disorders. So, not only do you get all your > > animals stolen from you, and become ineligible to own animals any > more (part > > of the usual punishment they go for) but you may need to go see a > shrink for > > an unspecified length of time, or end up in a mental facility. Brings to > > mind the song "They're Coming to Take Me Away" by Napoleon XIV aka Jerry > > Samuels. > > > > They're coming to take me away, HA HA > > They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA > > To the funny farm > > Where life is beautiful all the time > > And I'll be happy to see > > Those nice, young men > > In their clean, white coats > > And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa! > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:10 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" > Introduced > > > > I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, > asking her > > to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will > post the > > original email and her reply when I receive an answer. > > If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email > address is > > apugh@... and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. > > The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more > likely > > it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. > > > > One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a > > legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both > > their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and > > say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as > > uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even > > realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to > "kill it" go > > unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a > > solution. > > Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT > > bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep > > everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, > > which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive > > keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also > designed > > to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The > > specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem > > species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. > Pugh? > > > > A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of > a bill > > than to kill it altogether. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law > that a > > bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law > (Sec. 1. 13 > > V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal > > hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the > > introduced legislation > > (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: > > http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession > of more > > than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > > > > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I > went > > and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does > look like > > that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the > passage of > > this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen > to have > > more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, > swimming > > around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the > > statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > > > > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see > the light > > of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50823	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

Dawn, Do you mind if I cross post your latest e-mail on the subject? \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:41 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced I thought I would provide an update. I have dealt with many politicians over the years, for various reasons. Never... never before, have I come across one as evasive and vague as this Ann Pugh. Wow, she is something! I began by writing to her, asking how this bill will affect fish hobbyists. Her first reply was blunt... "Thank you for your email. I hope you will understand that given that we don't have staff, I am unable to respond to emails with out full contact information. Sincerely, Representative Ann Pugh 67 Bayberry Lane South Burlington, VT 05403 (or) State House 115 State Street Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 802-828-2228 800-322-5616 (VT only)" So... I wrote back, gave her all of my contact info and stated that I hoped it was enough for her to answer my questions. This morning I got this reply... "Thank you for your information The bill was introduced on behalf of a group of 12 graders as part of a class in political science/civic engagement. Sincerely, Representative Ann Pugh 67 Bayberry Lane South Burlington, VT 05403 (or) State House 115 State Street Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 802-828-2228 800-322-5616 (VT only)" I have emailed her again, asking again how this bill will affect fish hobbyists specifically. We'll see what kind of answer I get, if any. Because I live in Wisconsin there is very little I can do except ask the questions and accept the answers given, but... to anyone here who lives in Vermont... I would strongly suggest looking deeper into this. I think its time to call Senators and ask them what is going on and how to best deal with this, or... even better, contact the media and let them start asking the questions. I would be more than happy to forward these emails from her if someone wants to initiate the contact elsewhere. What a load of crap! (sorry about the language...this just makes me very angry) I will keep you all posted if I hear from her again. I am considering calling her next. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > I do not know where you are from, but the rep is from Burlington, one of the > three "cities" in Vermont. Once you get away from the University of Vermont, > there, it is mostly single family homes. The few times I have been there, I > do not recall seeing a single apartment building, never mind complex. If > there needs to be a limitation of animals that one has, it should be handled > on a local basis, and not be made to be a felony animal cruelty charge. > > Also keep in mind that Vermont is a largely rural state. Lots of room for > lots of domesticated animals as well as wildlife. > > One thing to keep in mind is that animal hoarding is a rising star on the > Animal Rights (AR) movement. While they are really against any one owning > any animals, they make an argument here that one person or family can only > take care of a very limited number of animals. The smaller they can make > this number, the better they feel they have done. > > You may want to watch a show on Animal Planet called Confessions: Animal > Hoarding usually followed by a name or two. > > ARs are working very hard to get hoarding into the book that describes all > the recognized psychiatric disorders. So, not only do you get all your > animals stolen from you, and become ineligible to own animals any more (part > of the usual punishment they go for) but you may need to go see a shrink for > an unspecified length of time, or end up in a mental facility. Brings to > mind the song "They're Coming to Take Me Away" by Napoleon XIV aka Jerry > Samuels. > > They're coming to take me away, HA HA > They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA > To the funny farm > Where life is beautiful all the time > And I'll be happy to see > Those nice, young men > In their clean, white coats > And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa! > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:10 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced > > I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, asking her > to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will post the > original email and her reply when I receive an answer. > If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email address is > apugh@... and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. > The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more likely > it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. > > One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a > legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both > their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and > say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as > uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even > realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to "kill it" go > unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a > solution. > Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT > bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep > everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, > which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive > keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also designed > to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The > specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem > species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. Pugh? > > A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of a bill > than to kill it altogether. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that a > bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. 13 > V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal > hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the > introduced legislation > (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: > http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more > than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went > and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look like > that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage of > this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have > more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, swimming > around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the > statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the light > of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > > > \\Steve// > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50824	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only very small. There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't harm the bacteria or fry. I have not found any fish that eat it. ~ Laurie ________________________________ From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! whats a hydra ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could there be small ones? If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are digesting? Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50825	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/17/2011
Subject: Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced

By all means... get it out there! I have posted it in several places online during the course of today and encouraged people to call and ask the same questions I am asking. Her phone was pretty busy today, my friend tried several times and couldn't get through. All she needs to do is change the way its worded and it could effectively deal with actual animal hoarding while leaving everyone else alone. Maybe if enough people tell her that she'll listen. If not, I am working on a letter to send to each of the assembly members asking them to amend her amendment. I am not about to sit back and let her set an example for WI to follow... or any other state. I would like to see this resolved. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Do you mind if I cross post your latest e-mail on the subject? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 1:41 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced > > I thought I would provide an update. > I have dealt with many politicians over the years, for various reasons. > Never... never before, have I come across one as evasive and vague as this > Ann Pugh. Wow, she is something! > I began by writing to her, asking how this bill will affect fish hobbyists. > Her first reply was blunt... > "Thank you for your email. I hope you will understand that given that we > don't have staff, I am unable to respond to emails with out full contact > information. > > Sincerely, > > Representative Ann Pugh > 67 Bayberry Lane > South Burlington, VT 05403 > (or) > State House > 115 State Street > Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 > 802-828-2228 > 800-322-5616 (VT only)" > > So... I wrote back, gave her all of my contact info and stated that I hoped > it was enough for her to answer my questions. This morning I got this > reply... > "Thank you for your information The bill was introduced on behalf of a > group of 12 graders as part of a class in political science/civic > engagement. > > Sincerely, > > Representative Ann Pugh > 67 Bayberry Lane > South Burlington, VT 05403 > (or) > State House > 115 State Street > Montpelier, VT 05633-5201 > 802-828-2228 > 800-322-5616 (VT only)" > > I have emailed her again, asking again how this bill will affect fish > hobbyists specifically. We'll see what kind of answer I get, if any. > Because I live in Wisconsin there is very little I can do except ask the > questions and accept the answers given, but... to anyone here who lives in > Vermont... I would strongly suggest looking deeper into this. I think its > time to call Senators and ask them what is going on and how to best deal > with this, or... even better, contact the media and let them start asking > the questions. I would be more than happy to forward these emails from her > if someone wants to initiate the contact elsewhere. > What a load of crap! (sorry about the language...this just makes me very > angry) > I will keep you all posted if I hear from her again. I am considering > calling her next. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > I do not know where you are from, but the rep is from Burlington, one of > the > > three "cities" in Vermont. Once you get away from the University of > Vermont, > > there, it is mostly single family homes. The few times I have been there, > I > > do not recall seeing a single apartment building, never mind complex. If > > there needs to be a limitation of animals that one has, it should be > handled > > on a local basis, and not be made to be a felony animal cruelty charge. > > > > Also keep in mind that Vermont is a largely rural state. Lots of room for > > lots of domesticated animals as well as wildlife. > > > > One thing to keep in mind is that animal hoarding is a rising star on the > > Animal Rights (AR) movement. While they are really against any one owning > > any animals, they make an argument here that one person or family can only > > take care of a very limited number of animals. The smaller they can make > > this number, the better they feel they have done. > > > > You may want to watch a show on Animal Planet called Confessions: Animal > > Hoarding usually followed by a name or two. > > > > ARs are working very hard to get hoarding into the book that describes all > > the recognized psychiatric disorders. So, not only do you get all your > > animals stolen from you, and become ineligible to own animals any more > (part > > of the usual punishment they go for) but you may need to go see a shrink > for > > an unspecified length of time, or end up in a mental facility. Brings to > > mind the song "They're Coming to Take Me Away" by Napoleon XIV aka Jerry > > Samuels. > > > > They're coming to take me away, HA HA > > They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA > > To the funny farm > > Where life is beautiful all the time > > And I'll be happy to see > > Those nice, young men > > In their clean, white coats > > And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa! > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:10 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" Introduced > > > > I just sent an email to Rep. Ann Pugh, who introduced this bill, asking > her > > to please explain how this will affect aquarium hobbyists. I will post > the > > original email and her reply when I receive an answer. > > If anyone else is interested in contacting her direct, her email address > is > > apugh@ and her direct phone number is 802-863-6705. > > The more aquarium hobbyists she hears from about this bill the more likely > > it is to become aquarium hobbyist friendly. > > > > One last suggestion about this bill. It always helps when contacting a > > legislator if we have an alternative to their bill which addresses both > > their concerns and that of the public/people affected by it. To call and > > say we don't like it is only 1/2 the battle. If these people are as > > uneducated about our hobby as we presume them to be, they may not even > > realize we are so greatly affected by it, and thus our pleas to "kill it" > go > > unheard because these reps are still left with a problem that needs a > > solution. > > Here in the city where I live they have defined it more than in this VT > > bill, and that may offer some help to this rep in making changes to keep > > everyone happy. Our local ordinance here reads a limit of dogs and cats, > > which is what the laws here targets for limitation due to the excessive > > keeping of these 2 species of animals. These ordinances are also designed > > to prevent things such as puppy mills from getting started. The > > specification of what animals are limited helps to separate the problem > > species from all else, and maybe is a good alternative to offer Rep. Pugh? > > > > A state rep is often more easily persuaded to change the wording of a bill > > than to kill it altogether. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I noticed that in the PIJAC Alerts posted earlier today on Pet-Law that > a > > bill has been introduced (H.371) to amend the Animal Cruelty law (Sec. 1. > 13 > > V.S.A. § 351) to include animal hoarding as a crime. It defines animal > > hoarding as more than 5 animals. I searched and found a copy of the > > introduced legislation > > (http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: > > http://tinyurl.com/4o7qkrw) which, indeed , states that possession of more > > than 5 animals would be classified as a crime. > > > > > > OK, I says to myself, what's a fishkeeper or farmer to do? Well, I went > > and found a copy of the statute that is being amended, and it does look > like > > that farmers and aquarists will be put in a terrible bind by the passage > of > > this bill as written, not to mention those of you who would happen to have > > more than 5 animals hanging, flying, purring, padding, slithering, > swimming > > around the house.. (You can find a copy of the relevant section of the > > statute at http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 > > TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t.) > > > > > > This most certainly needs to be defeated, hopefully never to see the > light > > of day outside of the committee it has been assigned to. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50826	From: haecklers	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

I just read that pearl gourami eat it, and that's what I have in the tank! I'm hoping the bigger of the fry will eat the smaller hydra and keep the problem from spreading until they get big enough to eat them all. (I've combined two spawns in there - the larger are around 2/3 inches) I also added a couple baby marmokrebs (crayfish) to see if they'll take them on. I'd think snails would eat them, like the larger ramshorns or nerites. I put in a couple of them, too. As long as I don't contaminate my other tanks I'd like to see if this can be controlled naturally, but I think but I'll definitely keep the flubendazole in mind in case they spread to other tanks. Since I've got around 30 of the larger fry in a 10-gallon tank, I'm not sure I really want the smaller fry to all survive anyway - that would be really overcrowded in a month when they've all grown, so I feel I have time to play around with this. In the meantime I'm going to increase feedings for the smaller fry to help them grow to a size that will no longer be threatened by the hydra. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@...> wrote: > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only very > small. > > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't harm the > bacteria or fry. > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > whats a hydra > > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could > there be small ones? > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > digesting? > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50827	From: Ray	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

You read correctly -- yes, Pearl Gourami's do eat hydra. Then too, so do 3-spot (Blue) Gourami's, Paradise Fish, most Loaches and Mollies -- as well as Apple Snails (both Mystery an Spixi) and Ramshorn Snails. It's fortunate that you have Pearl Gourami's to control these pests, but while they do, any smaller fry will be subject to attack. It's reported that egg-layer fry being much smaller are more susceptible and that the larger fry of livebearers are relatively safe from their attacks, although there are reports of even Guppy fry being done it by them. While larger livebearer fry of Mollies and Swordtails may be much safer from hydra killing them, the hydra's stings can still damage them. To ensure removing them all, it would probably be best to go with Charles' suggestion to use Flubendazole, even if you have fish that will eat them, as fish can't be that efficient in finding and eradicating all of them in every nook & cranny as well as a chemical can. You plan to relocate larger fry to the smaller fry's tank was not a good one, and is counterproductive to growing out these smaller fry. WHENEVER there are any noticeably larger fry in a rearing tank of younger and/or smaller fry, these smaller fry will suffer from being out-competed and will markedly slow down in growth. Combining two different age/size spawns was not the best idea. One major point in the rearing of any fish/fry -- even all of the same age -- is to periodically sort out and separate any larger fry making much faster growth rates than their siblings, to promote the continued growth of the smaller fry by eliminating this increasing competition -- which will otherwise slow the growth of the smaller fry dramatically despite any increased feedings. You may eventually end up with mostly these older fry being successfully reared, with a smattering of fewer and much smaller younger fish. While Hydrogen Peroxide is said to eliminate hydra, it has proven not to -- but it can at least address the problem by slowing their advancement down. If tried, one would use 2 Tablespoons of Peroxide to 10 gallons of water -- by FIRST dilluting it in a small quantity of water before adding to the tank slowly in spreading it out over preferably a flowing surface. While the effects won't last long since Peroxide is not stable, it will offer the hydra some temporary set-back. This may be tried while waiting for the Flubendazole to be delivered. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I just read that pearl gourami eat it, and that's what I have in the tank! I'm hoping the bigger of the fry will eat the smaller hydra and keep the problem from spreading until they get big enough to eat them all. (I've combined two spawns in there - the larger are around 2/3 inches) > > I also added a couple baby marmokrebs (crayfish) to see if they'll take them on. I'd think snails would eat them, like the larger ramshorns or nerites. I put in a couple of them, too. As long as I don't contaminate my other tanks I'd like to see if this can be controlled naturally, but I think but I'll definitely keep the flubendazole in mind in case they spread to other tanks. Since I've got around 30 of the larger fry in a 10-gallon tank, I'm not sure I really want the smaller fry to all survive anyway - that would be really overcrowded in a month when they've all grown, so I feel I have time to play around with this. > > In the meantime I'm going to increase feedings for the smaller fry to help them grow to a size that will no longer be threatened by the hydra. > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only very > > small. > > > > > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't harm the > > bacteria or fry. > > > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > whats a hydra > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I > > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all > > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are > > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > > > > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could > > there be small ones? > > > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > > digesting? > > > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50828	From: Ray	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: sea monkies

Yes, the brine shrimp eggs distributed as "Sea Monkeys" are a different species, specifically called Artemia NYOS -- perhaps even a hybrid, which the promoters of this product have been developing up until now. When they were first introduced to the hobby in the 1960's, the Great Salt Lake (Utah) species was used -- Artemia salina. There are numerous brine shrimp species found all over the world; some found in Russia and China are also used in the aquarium hobby. There is a smaller one found in the marshes of San Francisco Bay, which is called Artemia franciscana. The Sea Monkey brine shrimp (A. NYOS) get to be about 3/4" and can live for up to two years. You can't train them though, and they won't eat bananas < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >      Hello: >     It is possible they are a different species or at the very least collected > from a different locale.  Some regions produce larger or more hardy animals than > the same species in another region.  I'm not sure, just food for thought.  I > haven't really looked at Sea Monkeys though I've read they were Brine Shrimp.  I > guess I'll have to check 'em out myself. >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Lauren Moore <crested.tern.09@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, March 13, 2011 11:24:19 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] sea monkies > >   > Cool thing about the "sea monkey" kits is that they have food for them... I > have no idea what brine shrimp eat, I would assume tiny algaes but not sure. > I had a sea monkey kit and got them to grow pretty decent sized... Then I > started raising brine shrimp for my fish, not so easy to get to full-sized > but then again I never really tried... > > Lauren > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50829	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Uhoh I saw one of those in my new shrimp tank, I must have had "inhabitants" in with the shrimp on the moss when they were shipped to me. I wonder if that's why I've lost a couple of shrimp in the last couple of weeks since I first got them... I wasn't sure what the "creature" was at the time and didn't think much about it until now. I guess I better get some flubendozole in the near future. Amber On 3/17/2011 8:32 PM, Laurie Alaimo wrote: > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only > very > small. > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't > harm the > bacteria or fry. > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > ~ Laurie > > ________________________________ > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@... > <mailto:horserider283%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > whats a hydra > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry > because I > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra > were all > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem > or are > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock > but could > there be small ones? > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > digesting? > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50830	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Oh it's a good thing I put a couple mystery snails and a few ramshorn snails in with my shrimp (it was to actually to make sure all the food was eaten and not wasted when I feed the shrimp), perhaps I don't need to worry so much. I saw the hydra a few weeks ago, right after I got the shrimp (I think). I've lost a couple shrimp the last couple of weeks and thought perhaps they weren't finding enough food, would a hydra kill orange eyed tiger shrimp? Amber On 3/18/2011 3:52 AM, Ray wrote: > > You read correctly -- yes, Pearl Gourami's do eat hydra. Then too, so > do 3-spot (Blue) Gourami's, Paradise Fish, most Loaches and Mollies -- > as well as Apple Snails (both Mystery an Spixi) and Ramshorn Snails. > It's fortunate that you have Pearl Gourami's to control these pests, > but while they do, any smaller fry will be subject to attack. > > It's reported that egg-layer fry being much smaller are more > susceptible and that the larger fry of livebearers are relatively safe > from their attacks, although there are reports of even Guppy fry being > done it by them. While larger livebearer fry of Mollies and Swordtails > may be much safer from hydra killing them, the hydra's stings can > still damage them. > > To ensure removing them all, it would probably be best to go with > Charles' suggestion to use Flubendazole, even if you have fish that > will eat them, as fish can't be that efficient in finding and > eradicating all of them in every nook & cranny as well as a chemical > can. You plan to relocate larger fry to the smaller fry's tank was not > a good one, and is counterproductive to growing out these smaller fry. > WHENEVER there are any noticeably larger fry in a rearing tank of > younger and/or smaller fry, these smaller fry will suffer from being > out-competed and will markedly slow down in growth. Combining two > different age/size spawns was not the best idea. > > One major point in the rearing of any fish/fry -- even all of the same > age -- is to periodically sort out and separate any larger fry making > much faster growth rates than their siblings, to promote the continued > growth of the smaller fry by eliminating this increasing competition > -- which will otherwise slow the growth of the smaller fry > dramatically despite any increased feedings. You may eventually end up > with mostly these older fry being successfully reared, with a > smattering of fewer and much smaller younger fish. > > While Hydrogen Peroxide is said to eliminate hydra, it has proven not > to -- but it can at least address the problem by slowing their > advancement down. If tried, one would use 2 Tablespoons of Peroxide to > 10 gallons of water -- by FIRST dilluting it in a small quantity of > water before adding to the tank slowly in spreading it out over > preferably a flowing surface. While the effects won't last long since > Peroxide is not stable, it will offer the hydra some temporary > set-back. This may be tried while waiting for the Flubendazole to be > delivered. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > I just read that pearl gourami eat it, and that's what I have in the > tank! I'm hoping the bigger of the fry will eat the smaller hydra and > keep the problem from spreading until they get big enough to eat them > all. (I've combined two spawns in there - the larger are around 2/3 > inches) > > > > I also added a couple baby marmokrebs (crayfish) to see if they'll > take them on. I'd think snails would eat them, like the larger > ramshorns or nerites. I put in a couple of them, too. As long as I > don't contaminate my other tanks I'd like to see if this can be > controlled naturally, but I think but I'll definitely keep the > flubendazole in mind in case they spread to other tanks. Since I've > got around 30 of the larger fry in a 10-gallon tank, I'm not sure I > really want the smaller fry to all survive anyway - that would be > really overcrowded in a month when they've all grown, so I feel I have > time to play around with this. > > > > In the meantime I'm going to increase feedings for the smaller fry > to help them grow to a size that will no longer be threatened by the > hydra. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie Alaimo > <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, > only very > > > small. > > > > > > > > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it > won't harm the > > > bacteria or fry. > > > > > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > whats a hydra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > > > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the > fry because I > > > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The > hydra were all > > > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the > problem or are > > > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > > > > > > > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the > rock but could > > > there be small ones? > > > > > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > > > > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > > > digesting? > > > > > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > > > > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the home > > > page. > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50831	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

No, not the adults. The shrimp are far too large to be bothered by the tiny Hydra. They don't get bigger than 1/2 inch. They might catch a new shrimp off the spinners, but certainly not an adult. Charles H >Oh it's a good thing I put a couple mystery snails and a few ramshorn >snails in with my shrimp (it was to actually to make sure all the food >was eaten and not wasted when I feed the shrimp), perhaps I don't need >to worry so much. I saw the hydra a few weeks ago, right after I got the >shrimp (I think). I've lost a couple shrimp the last couple of weeks and >thought perhaps they weren't finding enough food, would a hydra kill >orange eyed tiger shrimp? > Amber -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50832	From: haecklers	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Wow, thanks Ray for pointing that out about combining spawns - I was wondering why the younger fry didn't seem to be growing AT ALL! I thought it was because there wasn't enough very small food for them to eat so I had started giving them more vinegar eels and infusoria. Is it safe to combine similar-sized fry of different types of fish? I have one zebra danio in with the gourami fry that I found when cleaning out the filter. They're all the same size and so far they seem to be doing ok. The danio has staked out a small territory that it patrols and chases the gourami fry out of-! I guess we'll just write off the rest of the gourami fry then and go ahead and use them as fish food. Do you think letting bettas eat gourami fry will mess up their parenting instincts so they'll eat their own fry as they hatch? Does it have to be food-grade peroxide, or will regular drug store peroxide be ok? In the meantime, I have a bunch of large ramshorn snails I can put in there. Will peroxide be dangerous to the snails? I was kind of hoping the MTS snails I'd put in there could reproduce so I could spread them to other tanks, my cichlids ate most of the ones I put in their tanks I fear. Thanks again for the input! - R --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > You read correctly -- yes, Pearl Gourami's do eat hydra. Then too, so do 3-spot (Blue) Gourami's, Paradise Fish, most Loaches and Mollies -- as well as Apple Snails (both Mystery an Spixi) and Ramshorn Snails. It's fortunate that you have Pearl Gourami's to control these pests, but while they do, any smaller fry will be subject to attack. > > It's reported that egg-layer fry being much smaller are more susceptible and that the larger fry of livebearers are relatively safe from their attacks, although there are reports of even Guppy fry being done it by them. While larger livebearer fry of Mollies and Swordtails may be much safer from hydra killing them, the hydra's stings can still damage them. > > To ensure removing them all, it would probably be best to go with Charles' suggestion to use Flubendazole, even if you have fish that will eat them, as fish can't be that efficient in finding and eradicating all of them in every nook & cranny as well as a chemical can. You plan to relocate larger fry to the smaller fry's tank was not a good one, and is counterproductive to growing out these smaller fry. WHENEVER there are any noticeably larger fry in a rearing tank of younger and/or smaller fry, these smaller fry will suffer from being out-competed and will markedly slow down in growth. Combining two different age/size spawns was not the best idea. > > One major point in the rearing of any fish/fry -- even all of the same age -- is to periodically sort out and separate any larger fry making much faster growth rates than their siblings, to promote the continued growth of the smaller fry by eliminating this increasing competition -- which will otherwise slow the growth of the smaller fry dramatically despite any increased feedings. You may eventually end up with mostly these older fry being successfully reared, with a smattering of fewer and much smaller younger fish. > > While Hydrogen Peroxide is said to eliminate hydra, it has proven not to -- but it can at least address the problem by slowing their advancement down. If tried, one would use 2 Tablespoons of Peroxide to 10 gallons of water -- by FIRST dilluting it in a small quantity of water before adding to the tank slowly in spreading it out over preferably a flowing surface. While the effects won't last long since Peroxide is not stable, it will offer the hydra some temporary set-back. This may be tried while waiting for the Flubendazole to be delivered. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I just read that pearl gourami eat it, and that's what I have in the tank! I'm hoping the bigger of the fry will eat the smaller hydra and keep the problem from spreading until they get big enough to eat them all. (I've combined two spawns in there - the larger are around 2/3 inches) > > > > I also added a couple baby marmokrebs (crayfish) to see if they'll take them on. I'd think snails would eat them, like the larger ramshorns or nerites. I put in a couple of them, too. As long as I don't contaminate my other tanks I'd like to see if this can be controlled naturally, but I think but I'll definitely keep the flubendazole in mind in case they spread to other tanks. Since I've got around 30 of the larger fry in a 10-gallon tank, I'm not sure I really want the smaller fry to all survive anyway - that would be really overcrowded in a month when they've all grown, so I feel I have time to play around with this. > > > > In the meantime I'm going to increase feedings for the smaller fry to help them grow to a size that will no longer be threatened by the hydra. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only very > > > small. > > > > > > > > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't harm the > > > bacteria or fry. > > > > > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > whats a hydra > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > > > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I > > > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all > > > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are > > > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > > > > > > > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could > > > there be small ones? > > > > > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > > > > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > > > digesting? > > > > > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > > > > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > > page. > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50833	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Bill on hoarding animals

The whole problem with this bill is just sloppy thinking. I spent many years working in environmental education. I can tell you right off the bat that a large proportion of people think the word "animals" refers only to mammals. Mostly large, wild mammals. Sample conversation: dumb person"I have never seen a wild animal outside a zoo." me: "Really? You've never seen a squirrel from the sidewalk?" dumb person: "But squirrels aren't animals" me: (Thinks -- But they are alive. And they aren't plants.) On the outside, I say something more diplomatic. They walk away a little abashed. But they still believe that "animals" are something exotic. This conversation gets really convoluted in tidepool walks. "dumb person" thinks that if they don't see it move rapidly, it isn't alive. So I can't even get them started on the dead vs alive/plants vs animals line of critical thinking. But I am too weary to write of those explanations, I'll just let you imagine them. I don't mind it in kids, they find this way of thinking amazing. The light turn on. In many adults, the light is on but no-one's home. They have already made up their mind. So, multiply that time 100 for fish. They simply don't have the critical thinking. They forget fish are animals included in their rule. Or invertebrates. etc. That's my take on the bill. And the intelligence of politicians? Let's not go there. Diana (who mostly lurks here)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50834	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@...> wrote: > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > Rene. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "LindaS" <maxinatrillion@> wrote: > > > > Well, Frankie the Fish did not die in vain, apparantly. He has raised a discussion that should be helpful in some ways. > > What I suggeted works for my fish, in my area, in my climate. I have no desire to spend tons of money on water conditioners, as if I had salt water fish, and they are happy and pretty in their bowls. > > The reason I stated they don't do well in aquariums is because I read they get sucked into the filters, maybe I was thinking of 'Fry' I don't really know now, but they are fighting fish, and not many others can be with them, so, why use a whole aquarium for one fish? Also, some have told me the snails even got bitten and killed by the betta. Then there was the incident where the snail brought in a disease. > > I've had my fish a year and a half now, so, I'm doing something right. > > I HAVE READ Their natural environment is 70 degrees, I have put them in the sun for an hour or so, and have to watch that the water does not get too hot. Because it can. > > I put warmer water in when I can't do a full change because their water is a bit cold AND I POUR IT IN SLOWLY IN ORDER TO HAVE THE FISH ADJUST TO IT NATURALLY. And pouring it in slowly warms it a bit for them. IT HAS NEVER HURT THEM. > > Thanks for all the input. But, I really take offence to being called 'irresponsible'. When I am passing along true information that worked for me. > > I have heard one betta can wind up costing a thousand dollars in getting carried away with treatments, and things not really needed to keep the pet comfortable. The gal with Frankie was on a limited budget, and I tried to give her simple examples of what works for my fish. > > If you do put them into the sun, (gee, that's natural, maybe you should stay away!) be sure to keep an eye on the water temp because it can go up pretty high, don't want a boiled fish. THAT would be irresponsible. Kind of like having one being sucked into a filter. > > Best, > > LinS > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50835	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Be careful around fish which eat a lot of green stuff with that Hydrogen Peroxide. The combination of H2O2 and a stomach of algae produces Oxygen gas and will blow up the gut and has killed a tank of Plecos for me and found a lost pleco in a tank I thought was growing too much algae to have one in it. H2O2 will do the same thing to some of the algae eating live bearers as well. Charles H >While Hydrogen Peroxide is said to eliminate >hydra, it has proven not to -- but it can at >least address the problem by slowing their >advancement down. If tried, one would use 2 >Tablespoons of Peroxide to 10 gallons of water >-- by FIRST dilluting it in a small quantity of >water before adding to the tank slowly in >spreading it out over preferably a flowing >surface. While the effects won't last long >since Peroxide is not stable, it will offer the >hydra some temporary set-back. This may be >tried while waiting for the Flubendazole to be >delivered. > >Ray -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50836	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/18/2011
Subject: Re: Hydra in my fry tank!

Ray, You should probably mention that those fish listed will generally only eat hydra if they have been kept hungry. A well fed fish will not find hydra appealing. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 7:52 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Hydra in my fry tank! You read correctly -- yes, Pearl Gourami's do eat hydra. Then too, so do 3-spot (Blue) Gourami's, Paradise Fish, most Loaches and Mollies -- as well as Apple Snails (both Mystery an Spixi) and Ramshorn Snails. It's fortunate that you have Pearl Gourami's to control these pests, but while they do, any smaller fry will be subject to attack. It's reported that egg-layer fry being much smaller are more susceptible and that the larger fry of livebearers are relatively safe from their attacks, although there are reports of even Guppy fry being done it by them. While larger livebearer fry of Mollies and Swordtails may be much safer from hydra killing them, the hydra's stings can still damage them. To ensure removing them all, it would probably be best to go with Charles' suggestion to use Flubendazole, even if you have fish that will eat them, as fish can't be that efficient in finding and eradicating all of them in every nook & cranny as well as a chemical can. You plan to relocate larger fry to the smaller fry's tank was not a good one, and is counterproductive to growing out these smaller fry. WHENEVER there are any noticeably larger fry in a rearing tank of younger and/or smaller fry, these smaller fry will suffer from being out-competed and will markedly slow down in growth. Combining two different age/size spawns was not the best idea. One major point in the rearing of any fish/fry -- even all of the same age -- is to periodically sort out and separate any larger fry making much faster growth rates than their siblings, to promote the continued growth of the smaller fry by eliminating this increasing competition -- which will otherwise slow the growth of the smaller fry dramatically despite any increased feedings. You may eventually end up with mostly these older fry being successfully reared, with a smattering of fewer and much smaller younger fish. While Hydrogen Peroxide is said to eliminate hydra, it has proven not to -- but it can at least address the problem by slowing their advancement down. If tried, one would use 2 Tablespoons of Peroxide to 10 gallons of water -- by FIRST dilluting it in a small quantity of water before adding to the tank slowly in spreading it out over preferably a flowing surface. While the effects won't last long since Peroxide is not stable, it will offer the hydra some temporary set-back. This may be tried while waiting for the Flubendazole to be delivered. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I just read that pearl gourami eat it, and that's what I have in the tank! I'm hoping the bigger of the fry will eat the smaller hydra and keep the problem from spreading until they get big enough to eat them all. (I've combined two spawns in there - the larger are around 2/3 inches) > > I also added a couple baby marmokrebs (crayfish) to see if they'll take them on. I'd think snails would eat them, like the larger ramshorns or nerites. I put in a couple of them, too. As long as I don't contaminate my other tanks I'd like to see if this can be controlled naturally, but I think but I'll definitely keep the flubendazole in mind in case they spread to other tanks. Since I've got around 30 of the larger fry in a 10-gallon tank, I'm not sure I really want the smaller fry to all survive anyway - that would be really overcrowded in a month when they've all grown, so I feel I have time to play around with this. > > In the meantime I'm going to increase feedings for the smaller fry to help them grow to a size that will no longer be threatened by the hydra. > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie Alaimo <environmom95112@> wrote: > > > > Hydra is like an anemone. It has a stalk and stinging tenticles, only very > > small. > > > > > > There are most likely more in the tank. Use flubendozole - it won't harm the > > bacteria or fry. > > > > I have not found any fish that eat it. > > > > ~ Laurie > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Emma Caccia <horserider283@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, March 17, 2011 4:51:49 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > whats a hydra > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, March 16, 2011 10:07:46 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hydra in my fry tank! > > > > > > I saw about 20 hydra in my fry tank today. I was looking at the fry because I > > thought there were a lot fewer than there should have been. The hydra were all > > attached to a rock so I removed it. Will that get rid of the problem or are > > there likely more hydra on the Java Moss? > > > > > > I looked closely and didn't see any the size of the ones on the rock but could > > there be small ones? > > > > If your tank gets infested with hydra, how do you get rid of them?? > > > > Are the thicker, darker parts of the hydra the fry they caught and are > > digesting? > > > > Are they still a threat to 1/2" fry? > > > > I put the rock in my cichlid tank, will bigger fish eat hydra? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50837	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/19/2011
Subject: The 10 biggest cichlids

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3733&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_18_2011&utm_term=The_10_biggest_cichlids_&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/468tpr9 The 10 biggest cichlids Mary Bailey runs the rule over her top ten heavyweights in the cichlid division! Some cichlids are huge and many outsize species make great pets as they respond to their owner and show great interest in what activities are taking place outside their aquarium. Although they typically occupy a large space in natural waters, they are also quite happy with restricted environments in our homes The corollary is that a single specimen should never be shut alone in a tank in the fish room. It will get bored without the stimuli of domestic life. Pairs are another matter, tending to be less interested in their owner as they have other things to keep them busy! Considerations All the cichlids detailed here must have large tanks where they can turn round comfortably and get exercise. Although in captivity they usually remain smaller than maximum sizes quoted, 122 x 46 x 46cm/48 x 18 x 18" should be the absolute smallest tank for a single specimen of the smaller species; 183 x 46 x 46cm/72 x 18 x 18" for a pair - with upgrades as required, depending on the size of the fish. Eight out of my ten species are piscivores; the surprise being that it isn't a full house as it takes a lot of protein to build a big fish, and you need to be big to be an out-and-out piscivore. So, except where indicated, raw fish should form a significant element in diet, along with prawns, shrimps, mussels, earthworms and other robust meaty foods. Big fish also produce lots of waste, so efficient filtration is important, although this does not mean strong currents are desirable. None of these species live in turbulent water. So, let's start with the tenth largest, and work our way up... 10. Buccochromis lepturus The first Malawi and only mouthbrooder to make it into my list! B. lepturus can attain 40cm/16", is a piscivore found throughout Lake Malawi and also in the smaller Lake Malombe. It hunts over sandy bottoms, but little else is known about its behaviour in the wild. It has not been found breeding on the open sand and in captivity males have dug nests among rocks. Very little other information on aquarium maintenance is available either, though it has been exported occasionally for the hobby. Males are very attractive and apparently not particularly aggressive. The water should be hard and alkaline, very pure and well oxygenated. The breeding behaviour reported suggests a large tank with a decent expanse of open bottom, but some rocks with sand between. I imagine that if the tank is large enough other large Malawi 'haps' could share the space. There were other contenders from Lake Malawi for this tenth place, one being Champsochromis caeruleus, another piscivore, which lost out as it is an elongate pursuit predator while lepturus is deeper-bodied so larger overall. I also had to rule out the ncheni (Rhamphochromis), even though I have held one at least as large, as the identity of the species is a matter of debate. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50838	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/20/2011
Subject: The A-Z of Fish Health, Part 3: M-R

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3729&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_18_2011&utm_term=The_A-Z_of_Fish_Health,_Part_3:_M-R&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4gwgxog The A-Z of Fish Health, Part 3: M-R Dr Peter Burgess, Senior Consultant of the Aquarian Advisory Service, takes us through the alphabet, looking at the common - and not-so-common - health matters that can affect our fish. Ed's note: This is the third part of a full A-Z glossary of fish health terms. We'll be adding the rest of the series, along with the relevant links, very soon. A-E [ http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3688 ] F-L [ http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3706 ] Malnutrition Dietary condition often caused by inadequate food intake or poor diet. Sometimes due to certain diseases, such as a heavy tapeworm infestation. Affected fish slowly lose body mass and muscle wastage may also occur. Malnourished fish become emaciated and typically develop a pinched-in 'hollow' belly. As it becomes progressively thinner, the fish's head may appear disproportionately large compared to the body. Fish may become malnourished because they refuse to feed, perhaps due to ill-health or stress, or because they are inhibited by aggressive tank mates. Offering the wrong types of food can also lead to malnutrition. For example, some fish - such as pike, seahorses, and the fry of many species - may only accept living foods and refuse to eat at all if only offered dead or artificial diets. Mebendazole Veterinary drug used to treat skin and gill flukes (monogenean flukes). Can be delivered via the water at levels of 1 mg/l per 24-hour bath. Higher doses may be required to combat some species of monogenean. Available on veterinary prescription. Melanoma Tumour of the black pigment cells within the skin and affected fish develop slightly raised black areas on the surface. Some platy/ Swordtail hybrids are particularly prone to melanomas which are also occasionally seen in ageing tetras. Usually lethal, but non-contagious. There's no known cure. Methylene blue Dye-based chemical traditionally used to treat fungal, bacterial and protozoal infections. Less commonly used these days, except for treating egg fungus). May destroy the biological filter bacteria. Metronidazole Veterinary drug, marketed as Flagyl(r). The drug of choice for treating hole-in-head (HIH) syndrome in cichlid fishes. Metronidazole combats intestinal flagellate protozoa such as spironucleus and hexamita which are implicated in HIH. It's also effective against certain anaerobic (oxygen-hating) bacteria. Can be administered via the water or with the fish's food, assuming they are feeding normally. Seek expert advice regarding dose rates and exposure times. Not readily soluble in water so ensure the drug is fully dissolved before use. Some experts switch to using di-metronidazole when dealing with stubborn cases of HIH. Microsporidians Large group of protozoan parasites that affect various animal groups, including freshwater and marine fish. Microsporidians are very small, spore-producing organisms that live within the cells of their host as intracellular parasites. The tiny spores (less than one-hundredth of a millimetre) may remain viable in the water for long periods, sometimes over a year. Numerous species affect fish, perhaps the best known being Pleistophora hyphessobryconis which causes neon tetra disease. Another species, Glugea anomala, causes the small lumps or cysts we often see on the skin of wild sticklebacks. There 's no established treatment for microsporidial infections. Monogeneans \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50839	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/20/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: The Mega-mouth shark

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3730&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_18_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_The_Mega-mouth_shark&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4lr9258 Weird fish of the week: The Mega-mouth shark Few fish live up to their name as well as this week's aquatic oddity: the Mega-mouth shark, Megachasma pelagios. Mega-mouths really don't look like any other shark. With their huge rounded head and gaping, down-turned mouth they always have a rather depressed look about them. Their massive body, which can grow in excess of 5.5m long, tapers away after the head making them look rather like an gigantic tadpole until you notice their huge asymmetrical tail fin, the upper lobe of which is very long, similar to those of thresher sharks. The whole shark has a soft and flabby appearance, not the sleek, streamlined profile most of us think of when picturing sharks. They are harmless plankton feeders sifting their prey from the water with specially adapted gill rakers. Their feeding method is thought to differ from the other giant plankton eating sharks, (whale and basking) in that they are believed to suck prey into their mouth, close it and expel the water through their gills where the rakers filter our their prey, rather than swimming forward mouth agape, constantly filtering like their planktivorous cousins. It was believed they had evolved from the same ancestor as basking sharks, but it is now thought they evolved their feeding adaptations independently. Their diet seems to consist largely of euphausiid shrimp (krill), but copepods and jellyfish have also been found in their stomachs. Very little is known of their natural behaviour, especially as the majority of specimens found have been dead, or near death, but a male specimen captured and re-released successfully with a radio tag attached in 1990 gave a brief insight into their behaviour. The tag showed the fish swam at a depth of between 120-160m during daylight hours but rose to between 12-25m at night. This behaviour is typical of many species that track to day/night migration of plankton. The tagged fish lived up to its sluggish looks, swimming at no more that 2.1kph during the recorded period. The first Mega-mouth was discovered tangled in the sea anchor of a US naval ship off Hawaii in 1976 and was finally described scientifically in 1983. Since then only 50 specimens have been caught or sighted, making it one of the rarest and enigmatic shark species. At adult size they have few predators, but one was seen being attacked by sperm whale. However all adult specimens discovered so far have shown scars or wounds left by the parasitic Cookie cutter shark, Isistius brasiliensis. They are ovoviviparous, giving birth to live young which develop in eggs inside the mother before birth. As far as can be ascertained from the fish recorded so far they are distributed throughout the world's temperate and tropical oceans. Why not check out some of our other Weird fish of the week features? [Links to the following available at the site. Scs] Flying gurnard Pinecone fish Sea lamprey Slender snipe eel Tripod fish Lumpsucker Ocean sunfish Two-headed arowana Stargazers Giant oarfish Kroyer's deep sea anglerfish Halimeda ghost pipefish Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 17 March 2011, 2:49 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50840	From: reneap7040	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace?

Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > Rene.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50841	From: Chris Owens-Polski	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator

Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?  Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?  I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC....   Chris Owens and the Linden Zoo Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) and the schools of Koi --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM   Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > Rene. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50842	From: harry perry	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris

I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. Harry --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM   Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?  Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?  I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC....   Chris Owens and the Linden Zoo Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) and the schools of Koi --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM   Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > Rene. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50843	From: haecklers	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Aquaponics = fish + plants

Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can be for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the plant roots cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, creating a system where the fish and plants are benefited with sometimes phenomenal growth and health. Or so they say. Here's a link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in a limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put a few feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one side of the tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings will be pulled from the surface of a planter down through holes in the bottom, through the holes in the board and into the fish water so they wick the water and nutrients up into the soil, keeping it evenly moist and fertilized. As the water is used by the plant and lost via evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will be replaced with fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the fish tub but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want something really low-tech. Anyone else try aquaponics?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50844	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: FLoating plants

When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a floating plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help that I can't remember the name. But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots would grow down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" leaves, which would mound up out of the water about an inch and the edges would burn if they got too hot. It just grew and grew and served a great role in our aquariums.It's not duckweed or anything else I can find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. Rounded leaves but with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have been somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM   I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. Harry --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM ﾂ� Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃつ� Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?ﾃつ� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC.... ﾃつ� Chris Owens and the Linden Zoo Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) and the schools of Koi --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM ﾃつ� Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > Rene. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50845	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants

Was it water hyacinth? I've seen that in ponds, it blooms though, but not sure how often. I think it's got big round leaves. Amber On 3/21/2011 3:07 PM, Rick Duffy wrote: > > When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a > floating plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help > that I can't remember the name. > But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots > would grow down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" > leaves, which would mound up out of the water about an inch and the > edges would burn if they got too hot. It just grew and grew and served > a great role in our aquariums.It's not duckweed or anything else I can > find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. Rounded leaves but > with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have been > somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@... > <mailto:harryfisherman%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@... > <mailto:harryfisherman%40yahoo.com>> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - > Moderator/Chris > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM > > > > I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one > disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if > you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. > > In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own > waste. > > Harry > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@... > <mailto:chris_o_p%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@... > <mailto:chris_o_p%40yahoo.com>> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - > Moderator > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM > > ﾂ� > > Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃつ� Can one of ya'll step > in and kill this thread?ﾃつ� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded > by politicans as I am in DC.... > > ﾃつ� > > Chris Owens > > and the Linden Zoo > > Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) > > and the schools of Koi > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@... > <mailto:begotten65%40hotmail.com>> wrote: > > From: reneap7040 <begotten65@... > <mailto:begotten65%40hotmail.com>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM > > ﾃつ� > > Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any > difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. > Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a > little longer). > > > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl > environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. > Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall > health. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost > that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right > conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > > > Rene. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50846	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/21/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants

Azolla maybe? Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 16:07:45 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] FLoating plants When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a floating plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help that I can't remember the name. But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots would grow down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" leaves, which would mound up out of the water about an inch and the edges would burn if they got too hot. It just grew and grew and served a great role in our aquariums.It's not duckweed or anything else I can find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. Rounded leaves but with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have been somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM   I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. Harry --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM ﾂ� Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃつ� Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?ﾃつ� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC.... ﾃつ� Chris Owens and the Linden Zoo Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) and the schools of Koi --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM ﾃつ� Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > Rene. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50847	From: Ray	Date: 3/22/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants

If it was not Azolla, as Bren mentions, perhaps you're thinking of Salvinia which has 1/4" to 1/2" slightly pointed and rounded leaves. All three of these are great pond plants, but Duckweed does best (too good!) of the three in the aquarium. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a floating plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help that I can't remember the name. > But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots would grow down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" leaves, which would mound up out of the water about an inch and the edges would burn if they got too hot. It just grew and grew and served a great role in our aquariums.It's not duckweed or anything else I can find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. Rounded leaves but with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have been somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. > > > > In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. > > > > Harry > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: > > > > From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM > > > > ﾂ� > > > > Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃつ� Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?ﾃつ� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC.... > > > > ﾃつ� > > > > Chris Owens > > > > and the Linden Zoo > > > > Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) > > > > and the schools of Koi > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: > > > > From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM > > > > ﾃつ� > > > > Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > > > > > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > > > > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > > > > > Rene. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50848	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/22/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants

What about water lettuce? There is a dwarf species that sounds like what you are describing. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a floating plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help that I can't remember the name. > But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots would grow down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" leaves, which would mound up out of the water about an inch and the edges would burn if they got too hot. It just grew and grew and served a great role in our aquariums.It's not duckweed or anything else I can find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. Rounded leaves but with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have been somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator/Chris > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. > > > > In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. > > > > Harry > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: > > > > From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM > > > > ﾂ� > > > > Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃつ� Can one of ya'll step in and kill this thread?ﾃつ� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by politicans as I am in DC.... > > > > ﾃつ� > > > > Chris Owens > > > > and the Linden Zoo > > > > Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) > > > > and the schools of Koi > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: > > > > From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM > > > > ﾃつ� > > > > Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > > > > > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > > > > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > > > > > Rene. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50849	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: FLoating plants

sounds like azolla to me. Do a google image search and verify! Enid ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 2:24:49 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: FLoating plants What about water lettuce? There is a dwarf species that sounds like what you are describing. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > When I was a teenager, 40 years ago, we used to buy a bunch of a floating >plant, and I can't find it anywhere anymore. Doesn't help that I can't remember >the name. > But it had small green leaves, floating, some thin thread like roots would grow >down if it was happy in the tank, dense maybe 1/4 or 1/2" leaves, which would >mound up out of the water about an inch and the edges would burn if they got too >hot. It just grew and grew and served a great role in our aquariums.It's not >duckweed or anything else I can find on searches. No blooms. Hardy as could be. >Rounded leaves but with a slight point or tapering end. I think they may have >been somewhat heart shaped leaves. Ring a bell with anyone? Thanks, Rick > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - >Moderator/Chris > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 3:59 PM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > I'm a moderator and have been following this thread. Because some one >disagrees with you doesn't mean they're being hostile. Asking you if you would >like to live in a closet is hardly hostile. > > > > In my opinion if you keep fish in a bowl they are living in their own waste. > > > > Harry > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> wrote: > > > > From: Chris Owens-Polski <chris_o_p@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? - Moderator > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 2:57 PM > > > > ﾂ� > > > > Dear Lord, is there a moderator on the site?ﾃ�� Can one of ya'll step in >and kill this thread?ﾃ�� I'm feeling the hostility even surrounded by >politicans as I am in DC.... > > > > ﾃ�� > > > > Chris Owens > > > > and the Linden Zoo > > > > Tundra (Samoyed) Cherub and Anubis (Great Danes) Raja (the feline) > > > > and the schools of Koi > > > > --- On Mon, 3/21/11, reneap7040 <begotten65@...> wrote: > > > > From: reneap7040 <begotten65@...> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Poor Tatoo, he could have a palace? > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 1:47 PM > > > > ﾃ�� > > > > Okey thats good,but would you like to live in a closet?Rene. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" ><dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have kept bettas in both bowls and tanks and have never seen any difference >in life span as long as they are cared for properly. Average life span for any >of my bettas was about 5 yrs. (a few a little longer). > > > > > While some people may not agree with keeping them in a bowl environment it is >inaccurate to state that it shortens their lifespan. Their lifespan is >determined by genetics, level of care, and overall health. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "reneap7040" <begotten65@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So you would like to live in a closet.Water conditioners dont cost that >much.Betta fish in a bowl or a small tank lives about 1- > > > > > > 1 1/2year.But in a 5-10 gallon tank,under the right conditions,they can >live up to 4-6years.Big difference. > > > > > > Rene. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50850	From: William M	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants

I woud not think that it would wick the nutrientrs up through the cotton but rather just the water. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can be for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the plant roots cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, creating a system where the fish and plants are benefited with sometimes phenomenal growth and health. Or so they say. Here's a link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ > > I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in a limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put a few feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one side of the tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings will be pulled from the surface of a planter down through holes in the bottom, through the holes in the board and into the fish water so they wick the water and nutrients up into the soil, keeping it evenly moist and fertilized. As the water is used by the plant and lost via evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will be replaced with fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. > > Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the fish tub but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want something really low-tech. > > Anyone else try aquaponics? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50851	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants

I've had non-aquatic plants floating on the surface of my tank, but one of my fish knocked the plant over and it ended up inside the fish tank *sigh* there was dirt all over, made a big mess. I have much smaller fish since then so I don't think they would knock a floating planter over, but I didn't want to chance it a 2nd time around. Also be careful using cotton as it bio-degrades over time in water, and could foul your goldfish water. Not to mention you will need a rather large tub for the goldfish as they are messy fish and need lots of room to grow. You might try something that stays smaller and can handle lower temps such as Platty's, they can handle lower/higher temps okay and would do fine outside during the spring/summer and possibly the fall as well (if it doesn't get too cold at night). Or Danio's, they like cooler water similar to goldfish conditions, and they (for the most part) stay fairly small. Amber On 3/23/2011 2:32 PM, William M wrote: > > I woud not think that it would wick the nutrientrs up through the > cotton but rather just the water. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can > be for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the > plant roots cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, > creating a system where the fish and plants are benefited with > sometimes phenomenal growth and health. Or so they say. Here's a link: > http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ > > > > I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in > a limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put > a few feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one > side of the tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings > will be pulled from the surface of a planter down through holes in the > bottom, through the holes in the board and into the fish water so they > wick the water and nutrients up into the soil, keeping it evenly moist > and fertilized. As the water is used by the plant and lost via > evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will be replaced with > fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. > > > > Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the > fish tub but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want > something really low-tech. > > > > Anyone else try aquaponics? > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50852	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants

I mentioned this place on this list a while back, but did not have any current information on it--including the name <g>. The name of the place was New Alchemy Institute, and its location was on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it's life ran from 1971-1991. However, there is a web site called thegreencenter.net that has picked up some of the pieces that was the New Alchemy Institute, and has some of their publications online at http://www.thegreencenter.net/. There is no direct link to the publications, you need to click on The Green Center on the home page, which brings you to a Web Site Index. The first several links deal with pages about the New Alchemy Institute, and you'll see publications listed for several of the links. These guys, as I recall were trying to do this stuff inexpensively and develop an inexpensive system so people could use them at home and raise their own veggies and fish. The scale may be a little larger than you are thinking, but you may be able to scale down at least some of their ideas and methods. Of course, you could fall back on the old, let's use philodendrons trick where you get or build a narrow basket-like contraption and set a few philodendrons in it. The basket needs to be in the water, and the philodendrons, once they get acclimated, will do all the work for you, except keeping themselves in check. They will suck a lot of materials out of the water. Just because they do that, it does not obviate your need to do regular water changes. After all, all the trace minerals they suck out of the water need to be replaced. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William M Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:33 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants I woud not think that it would wick the nutrientrs up through the cotton but rather just the water. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can be for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the plant roots cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, creating a system where the fish and plants are benefited with sometimes phenomenal growth and health. Or so they say. Here's a link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ > > I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in a limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put a few feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one side of the tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings will be pulled from the surface of a planter down through holes in the bottom, through the holes in the board and into the fish water so they wick the water and nutrients up into the soil, keeping it evenly moist and fertilized. As the water is used by the plant and lost via evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will be replaced with fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. > > Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the fish tub but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want something really low-tech. > > Anyone else try aquaponics? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50853	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants

There is still the concern of chloramines for the fish and the dechlorinators that include warnings not to use with fish (plants?) you intend to eat. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:02 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants I mentioned this place on this list a while back, but did not have any current information on it--including the name <g>. The name of the place was New Alchemy Institute, and its location was on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it's life ran from 1971-1991. However, there is a web site called thegreencenter.net that has picked up some of the pieces that was the New Alchemy Institute, and has some of their publications online at http://www.thegreencenter.net/. <http://www.thegreencenter.net/> There is no direct link to the publications, you need to click on The Green Center on the home page, which brings you to a Web Site Index. The first several links deal with pages about the New Alchemy Institute, and you'll see publications listed for several of the links. These guys, as I recall were trying to do this stuff inexpensively and develop an inexpensive system so people could use them at home and raise their own veggies and fish. The scale may be a little larger than you are thinking, but you may be able to scale down at least some of their ideas and methods. Of course, you could fall back on the old, let's use philodendrons trick where you get or build a narrow basket-like contraption and set a few philodendrons in it. The basket needs to be in the water, and the philodendrons, once they get acclimated, will do all the work for you, except keeping themselves in check. They will suck a lot of materials out of the water. Just because they do that, it does not obviate your need to do regular water changes. After all, all the trace minerals they suck out of the water need to be replaced. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of William M Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:33 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants I woud not think that it would wick the nutrientrs up through the cotton but rather just the water. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can be for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the plant roots cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, creating a system where the fish and plants are benefited with sometimes phenomenal growth and health. Or so they say. Here's a link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ > > I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in a limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put a few feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one side of the tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings will be pulled from the surface of a planter down through holes in the bottom, through the holes in the board and into the fish water so they wick the water and nutrients up into the soil, keeping it evenly moist and fertilized. As the water is used by the plant and lost via evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will be replaced with fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. > > Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the fish tub but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want something really low-tech. > > Anyone else try aquaponics? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50854	From: haecklers	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants

They don't use chloramines in my area, only chlorine, so I could let the tap water age for a day and then use it. Or I could set up a rainwater collection barrel (my area gets a good amount of rain annually) for even better water. As for the nutrients not wicking up the string, I've been experimenting with my houseplants and the nutrients do indeed seem to wick up the string. Unfertilized plants grow more slowly and have paler leaves. When the growth takes a surge and the leaves get a shade darker green, and the plant gets dense and bushy you can tell it is getting nutrients. I challenged my system by using spent soil from pots that hadn't had fresh soil or fertilizer added for years (I've been neglecting my poor plants until recently). I threaded the cotton string up from the drainage holes to the top (using a bent wire as a giant needle), and set the potted plant in a dish of rocks so the bottom of the pot was above the water level after I added my filter squeezings water from a water change. In about a day the potting soil was evenly moist and the plants started growing like gangbusters after that. I used house plants but the next step is to try it with food plants. I half-buried some tubs in my garden and filled them with water to age. I plan to put a board across the top to hold a cheap plastic window box planter and fill it with potting soil and try growing spinach or lettuce and see what happens. For aquaponics you want to slightly overstock because you want the fish waste to fertilize your plants. I don't know if danios would produce enough waste and to get the number of danios that would is much more expensive to buy than feeder fish. My son's feeder fish that were tiny when we bought them are way too big for his little tank now so they'll be going out there as soon as the water has aged. We'll add some of the aquarium gravel to get the denitrifying bacteria started and monitor the ammonia levels. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > There is still the concern of chloramines for the fish and the > dechlorinators that include warnings not to use with fish (plants?) you > intend to eat. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 10:02 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants > > > > > > I mentioned this place on this list a while back, but did not have any > current information on it--including the name <g>. The name of the place was > New Alchemy Institute, and its location was on Cape Cod. Unfortunately, it's > life ran from 1971-1991. However, there is a web site called > thegreencenter.net that has picked up some of the pieces that was the New > Alchemy Institute, and has some of their publications online at > http://www.thegreencenter.net/. <http://www.thegreencenter.net/> > There is no direct link to the publications, you need to click on The Green > Center on the home page, which brings you to a Web Site Index. The first > several links deal with pages about the New Alchemy Institute, and you'll > see publications listed for several of the links. > > These guys, as I recall were trying to do this stuff inexpensively and > develop an inexpensive system so people could use them at home and raise > their own veggies and fish. The scale may be a little larger than you are > thinking, but you may be able to scale down at least some of their ideas and > methods. > > Of course, you could fall back on the old, let's use philodendrons trick > where you get or build a narrow basket-like contraption and set a few > philodendrons in it. The basket needs to be in the water, and the > philodendrons, once they get acclimated, will do all the work for you, > except keeping themselves in check. They will suck a lot of materials out of > the water. Just because they do that, it does not obviate your need to do > regular water changes. After all, all the trace minerals they suck out of > the water need to be replaced. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > Behalf Of William M > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:33 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquaponics = fish + plants > > I woud not think that it would wick the nutrientrs up through the > cotton but rather just the water. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Aquaponics is the combination of hydroponics and aquaculture. It can be > for food or for ornamental fish like koi. The idea is that the plant roots > cleanse the water, because fish waste is plant fertilizer, creating a system > where the fish and plants are benefited with sometimes phenomenal growth and > health. Or so they say. Here's a link: http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/ > > > > I'm intrigued. This spring I'm going to try growing a few plants in a > limited aquaponic system. I'll partially bury a plastic tub and put a few > feeder goldfish in it. I'll put a board across the top of one side of the > tub with some holes drilled in it. Some cotton strings will be pulled from > the surface of a planter down through holes in the bottom, through the holes > in the board and into the fish water so they wick the water and nutrients up > into the soil, keeping it evenly moist and fertilized. As the water is used > by the plant and lost via evaporation (from the plant leaves, too) it will > be replaced with fresh water, thus replacing regular water changes. > > > > Ideally it would flow past the plant roots and be returned to the fish tub > but I'm not technical enough to tackle that one yet and want something > really low-tech. > > > > Anyone else try aquaponics? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50855	From: Trissa	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: iNTRO :)

Hello, My name is Trissa, and I have been a member of other groups but hadn't yet found one for aquatic life until now :) My boyfriend and I are fish fanatics, we take pride in our finned babies and give them the very best. Currently residing with us are: - Casper (Albino Oscar) - Dragon (Jewel, + 4 other jewels -we're trying to find him a girlfriend.) - Pinky & The Brain (Pinky is a Pink Convict, The Brain is a Black - named for his "bump") - Cuda (Our Pike - or "knockoff barracuda" as we like to call her" :) - 7 baby Red festae (or red terrors - can't wait till they grow up!) - 30+ baby convicts (courtesy of Pinky & The Brain) - Sunny & Goldilocks (Golden Rams) - Jack (Electric Blue Jack Dempsey) - 8 Albino Corys and one Emerald Cory and last but not least Pongo - my Pictus catfish. Lol - when I write all of that down, our collection seems a lot bigger... Anyways hello everyone, and can't wait to connect with other cichlid & aquatic lovers!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50856	From: john Lewis	Date: 3/24/2011
Subject: Re: iNTRO :)

Hello:    Welcome to the group.  This is a well informed, lively, active, and friendly group.  Questions are eagerly answered by quite knowledgeable members.  I like cichlids and catfish myself.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Trissa <trissa.nicole@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, March 24, 2011 2:45:38 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] iNTRO :)   Hello, My name is Trissa, and I have been a member of other groups but hadn't yet found one for aquatic life until now :) My boyfriend and I are fish fanatics, we take pride in our finned babies and give them the very best. Currently residing with us are: - Casper (Albino Oscar) - Dragon (Jewel, + 4 other jewels -we're trying to find him a girlfriend.) - Pinky & The Brain (Pinky is a Pink Convict, The Brain is a Black - named for his "bump") - Cuda (Our Pike - or "knockoff barracuda" as we like to call her" :) - 7 baby Red festae (or red terrors - can't wait till they grow up!) - 30+ baby convicts (courtesy of Pinky & The Brain) - Sunny & Goldilocks (Golden Rams) - Jack (Electric Blue Jack Dempsey) - 8 Albino Corys and one Emerald Cory and last but not least Pongo - my Pictus catfish. Lol - when I write all of that down, our collection seems a lot bigger... Anyways hello everyone, and can't wait to connect with other cichlid & aquatic lovers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50857	From: Laurie Alaimo	Date: 3/25/2011
Subject: female dario dario?? AKA Scarlet Badis

I have 3 very healthy males in their own 20 gallon heavily planted tank. They are seeking mates. Where can I find females??? I've heard that the exporters do not send females, but most of the fish I have seen for sale are immature, so it would be very impractical, if not impossible, for someone to sort the fish prior to shipping. What is up with the lack of females? ~ Laurie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50858	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/25/2011
Subject: Re: female dario dario?? AKA Scarlet Badis

Try anubiasdesign. That should be the name of the web site, and also, I believe, a group here on Yahoo. He seems to have some luck in getting females, but it is still tough to get them. Everyone keeping darios is looking for females. There also appears to be some difficulties in getting females from a spawn, the cause(s) of which has not yet been determined. There is also a group on Yahoo for badis where this topic does come up. Traffic is very light, though I noticed some today, the first in quite some time. It is called badisbadis. There is also a group for Dario, but I am not a member of that group. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie Alaimo Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 9:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] female dario dario?? AKA Scarlet Badis I have 3 very healthy males in their own 20 gallon heavily planted tank. They are seeking mates. Where can I find females??? I've heard that the exporters do not send females, but most of the fish I have seen for sale are immature, so it would be very impractical, if not impossible, for someone to sort the fish prior to shipping. What is up with the lack of females? ~ Laurie

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50859	From: Andy Mills	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Introduction

Hello, I just joined and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm from the UK and have been keeping fish now for around 27 years. I've had various different types of fish over the years but my favourite types of fish are fancy goldfish and various types of cichlids. My current fish consist of fancy goldfish, discus, angelfish, oscar, severum, male fighter, black ghost knife and various types of catfish. My oldest fish is a striped talking (raphael) catfish who I've had for about 23 years - he was one of my first tropical fish. The next oldest is a sailfin pleco who I've had for about 15 years, but he was pretty big when I got him so I don't know exactly how old he is. This might sound strange to some people, but I'm actually registered blind and have very little sight. However, if I sit right up close to the tanks I'm able to watch and enjoy my fish, I can see their shapes and colours. I do need fairly large fish though, small fish are very difficult for me to see. Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone and their fish.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50860	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Welcome. How wonderful that you can still enjoy your fish despite your being registered blind. I have all sorts of goldfish, fancy guppies, a tiny baby flounder, dwarf african frogs, golden asian clams and some sort of trumpet snails that are pets but have recently started having babies so I will be overrun in no time. At least they are cute :) Bren Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 20:37:29 To: <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Introduction Hello, I just joined and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm from the UK and have been keeping fish now for around 27 years. I've had various different types of fish over the years but my favourite types of fish are fancy goldfish and various types of cichlids. My current fish consist of fancy goldfish, discus, angelfish, oscar, severum, male fighter, black ghost knife and various types of catfish. My oldest fish is a striped talking (raphael) catfish who I've had for about 23 years - he was one of my first tropical fish. The next oldest is a sailfin pleco who I've had for about 15 years, but he was pretty big when I got him so I don't know exactly how old he is. This might sound strange to some people, but I'm actually registered blind and have very little sight. However, if I sit right up close to the tanks I'm able to watch and enjoy my fish, I can see their shapes and colours. I do need fairly large fish though, small fish are very difficult for me to see. Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone and their fish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50861	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Welcome! I do cichlids too, but the Rift Lake Africans. And Synodontis. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andy Mills Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 4:37 PM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Introduction Hello, I just joined and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm from the UK and have been keeping fish now for around 27 years. I've had various different types of fish over the years but my favourite types of fish are fancy goldfish and various types of cichlids. My current fish consist of fancy goldfish, discus, angelfish, oscar, severum, male fighter, black ghost knife and various types of catfish. My oldest fish is a striped talking (raphael) catfish who I've had for about 23 years - he was one of my first tropical fish. The next oldest is a sailfin pleco who I've had for about 15 years, but he was pretty big when I got him so I don't know exactly how old he is. This might sound strange to some people, but I'm actually registered blind and have very little sight. However, if I sit right up close to the tanks I'm able to watch and enjoy my fish, I can see their shapes and colours. I do need fairly large fish though, small fish are very difficult for me to see. Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone and their fish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50862	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 3/26/2011
Subject: Re: Introduction

Congratulations.....you seem to be an expert in this field!!! Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Sat, 3/26/11, Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> wrote: From: Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Introduction To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 3:37 PM   Hello, I just joined and thought I'd introduce myself. I'm from the UK and have been keeping fish now for around 27 years. I've had various different types of fish over the years but my favourite types of fish are fancy goldfish and various types of cichlids. My current fish consist of fancy goldfish, discus, angelfish, oscar, severum, male fighter, black ghost knife and various types of catfish. My oldest fish is a striped talking (raphael) catfish who I've had for about 23 years - he was one of my first tropical fish. The next oldest is a sailfin pleco who I've had for about 15 years, but he was pretty big when I got him so I don't know exactly how old he is. This might sound strange to some people, but I'm actually registered blind and have very little sight. However, if I sit right up close to the tanks I'm able to watch and enjoy my fish, I can see their shapes and colours. I do need fairly large fish though, small fish are very difficult for me to see. Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know everyone and their fish. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50863	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/27/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Sea moth

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3758&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=March_25_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Sea_moth&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4ev3oks [video available at site.] Weird fish of the week: Sea moth This week's scuttling sea bed oddity is the Sea moth or Little dragon fish, Eurypegasus draconis. The more weird fish we look at, the more normal it seems for fish to walk around the seabed rather than swim, and the Sea moth is another well practiced perambulator at the expense of swimming ability - they've even dispensed with their swimbladder to make trundling around the sea bed easier. Check out the video below: This walking behaviour is made possible by their specially adapted pelvic fins which are little more than the fin spine and the first ray joined to form an odd tentacle like structure used for this purpose. Coming from the order Gasterosteiformes which is also home to the sticklebacks, they share similar armoured body characteristics to their prickly cousins, but taken to far greater extremes. Growing to around 12cm/4.5in, the Sea moth's depressed, flattened body is covered in hard bony plates, giving them a lumpy protective carapace which is so complete the fish sheds the whole structure in one piece when growing, rather like an aquatic insect. This seemingly odd behaviour also helps rid them of algae, parasites and other hangers-on. They have greatly enlarged pectoral fins which they can fan out from their sides, flashing bright edges in the process probably as a way of scaring off would be predators. When forced to swim these fins can be tucked back making these cumbersome creatures more streamlined. These wing like fins give rise to their common name. They have a long, pointed rostrum, (nose) and underslung mouth with which they forage around the substrate in search of their prey, which consists largely of tiny crustaceans and worms found just under the surface. Observations of these fish in the wild reports them often in pairs and they are thought to be monogamous. They show no parental care as they are broadcast spawners with breeding pairs leaving their sea floor sanctuary at dusk, swimming upwards into the water column where they release and fertilise eggs. They are found at depths between 3-90m in the tropical Indo-Pacific but little is known of their lives. Unfortunately their dried bodies,(and those of the four other Sea moth species) are increasingly being used in the Chinese medicine trade, often in place of the seahorses to which they are distantly related. This has led to the IUCN red list of threatened species listing the fish as "data deficient" in a call for more research and scrutiny of Sea moths, and the trading of them. They are occasionally found for sale in the aquarium trade. [links available at site] Why not check out some of our other Weird fish of the week features? Mega mouth shark Flying gurnard Pinecone fish Sea lamprey Slender snipe eel Tripod fish Lumpsucker Ocean sunfish Two-headed arowana Stargazers Giant oarfish Kroyer's deep sea anglerfish Halimeda ghost pipefish Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 24 March 2011, 2:20 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50864	From: geckogully	Date: 3/27/2011
Subject: Pedigrees?

A newbie question for you - do fish have pedigrees? You know, like purebred dogs and such? Christine Abela Gecko Gully Do you know a lot of animal breeders? Earn money from referrals! http://bit.ly/f4Rmt3

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50865	From: Ray	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Re: Pedigrees?

Hi Christine, As you're a newbie here (or a newbie to the fish hobby as a whole?), let me first welcome you to the Group, and to the hobby as well if you're just getting into it. When this term "pedigree" comes up in such a querry, it must first be considered exactly what it means -- which is a particular representation of a species that has been man-made (bred solely as controlled by man) to display certain desired characteristics of the species as a particular breed, morph, strain or variety (varient) of it and which will breed true to form, having genetic make up particular to the variety. These breeds are controlled as being line bred, with previous generations of the form all having genes which have produced only the form as it presently appears, and which is expected to produce only this form in succeeding generations. In this context, yes definitely, there are many species which -- by this definition -- do indeed have pedigrees if that's what you choose to call them. Any of the made-man strains of our present tropical fish -- when line bred to produce and continue only a particular strain (or morph) that is not found in the wild -- may be considered as a "pedigree" as compared to this designation for dog breeds, even though as I'm sure your know, the actual term is reserved only for dogs. Some examples of "pedigrees" (or strains) of fishes would include any of the different color morphs of wild type fishes, which have been developed by man as well as any physical morphs so developed -- BUT, just as in other varieties of animals (dogs included), these morphs cannot include hybrids but must be strains only within the species. As a reminder, no matter what the breed of the dog may be, they are all one species. If, by chance, a Cocker Spaniel is bred to a Poodle it is still a dog (although now called a Cockerpoo). In Oscars, there are a number of different strains apart from the wild ones, some of which are the Tiger Oscar, the Red Oscar and the Albino Oscar. Likewise, there's the long-fin Oscar. With Angelfish, there are even more numerous color varieties -- which you would consider as "pedigrees" under these guidelines -- among them are Marble, Gold, Koi, Chocolate, Smokey and German Blue to name a few. As for physical varieties of this species, there are Pearl Scales and there are Veil Tails -- often combined with the different colotr morphs to produce "pedigrees" (strains) of Gold Veiltails or Marble Pearlscales. There are a couple of Albino morphs of several species of Cory Catfish. In the Betta world, as you prbably know, there are many different color morphs (solid red, or green or blue or Butterfly) and they can be found as physical morphs, as Half-Moons, or Dragon-Scales. The list goes on and on to include Danios, Tetras, Barbs, etc., with having developed long fins and which continue to breed true as a "pedigree" would be expected to. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "geckogully" <christine@...> wrote: > > A newbie question for you - do fish have pedigrees? You know, like purebred dogs and such? > > Christine Abela > Gecko Gully > > Do you know a lot of animal breeders? Earn money from referrals! http://bit.ly/f4Rmt3 >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50866	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Hi Everyone, My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make sure we are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do some pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 UK/14 US gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is a large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be thriving at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the filter, also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The filter is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & running for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch the filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but we keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have not altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he only topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard tube in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical grow light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight tannin colouring from the bogwood. I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a small pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing a little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer once every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got the names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" Cherry Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese Algae eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the company of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water changes? Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps but what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon tank & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days using a gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have had the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were before & playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking forward to hearing from you. John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50867	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: FW: PVAS BIG SPRING AUCTION THIS SATURDAY!

Below, find the announcement for the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society’s Spring Auction. If you are in the DC area, you may have an interest in attending. \\Steve// Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 2:12 PM Subject: PVAS BIG SPRING AUCTION THIS SATURDAY! Hello PVAS members and friends! Well spring is here and for all you fish-lovers, that means one thing: The BIG SPRING AUCTION OF THE POTOMAC VALLEY AQUARIUM SOCIETY! The auction is this Saturday, April 2nd at our regular meeting place: Green Acres School, 4401 Sideburn Road, Fairfax, Virginia. Doors open at 9 AM and the auction starts promptly at 10 AM! You know how I love to throw great, fun stuff out to the crowd, so be on hand for lots of freebies at the beginning of the auction. We are expecting about 1000 items this year -- fish, aquatic plants, pond items, tanks, filters, hardware, you name it! If you're starting a tank, or selling off a tank, this is the place to be! VOLUNTEERS: We need volunteers for the following: Corral workers: two hour shifts beginning at 8:30 AM Computer data entry: three hour shifts Cash desk/check out: three hour shifts Filing clerk at check out desk: three hour shifts Credit Card Desk: three hour shifts Buyer/Seller check in beginning at 9:00 AM If you can volunteer for any of these positions, please let me know by replying to this email ASAP. Your help is greatly needed to make the day a success, and greatly appreciated. SELLERS AND BUYERS : Please note: PVAS has adopted a new auctioning program and all buyers and sellers are required to create an account. REGISTERING AND CREATING AN ACCOUNT BEFORE THE AUCTION WILL SHORTEN YOUR WAIT TO GET INTO THE AUCTION! It's easy: 1. Go to: www.mygroupauctions.com and select "sign up as a user". 2. You will be asked to provide information about yourself to create your account. 3. If you want to buy and sell in the auction, click the "yes" boxes to be a buyer and seller. Buyers pick up their paddle at the door on the day of the sale. 4. After you are done entering your information, click "Sign Up" and you will be finished with the registration/account creation process. You must then choose a club affiliation. 5. After creating an account, log on to the system and click "Prepare" 6. Select "Club Affiliations" from the drop-down menu and click on "Potomac Valley Aquarium Society" 7. A new window will appear and you can check the "Member" box if you are a member of PVAS. If you are not member do not check the box. 8. When you are done with your club affiliation you may enter items to be sold in the auction by going back to "Prepare" and selecting "add auction items". 9. You will be prompted to select the April 2nd auction, and then you will be able to select "Add an auction item". 10. After you are done entering your auction items you can print labels by following the prompts. Please note, your information is kept completely secure and confidential and will never be sold or shared! THE RAFFLE: Folks, we have over $1000 in raffle items this year. All items are brand new and winning tickets will be pulled at the auction: hourly for the $1 items and at 1:00 PM for the $2 and $3 items. The list is unbelievable! * $3 item Aqualight and spare bulb (over $300 value) * $3 item Tidepool wet dry filter, and overflow attachment * $2 item Penn Plax Cascade Filter * $2 item 20Long/turtle-reptile set up and products * $2 item Aquaclear 70 powerhead * $2 item Turbotwist 6x UV filter and replacement bulb $1 items * Large Xtreme Catfish PeeWee pellet food * Large Xtreme Big Fella pellet food * Medium Xtreme Cat Scrapers food * 79 oz. Spectrum ExLarge Food pellet * 1 gallon Flourish Excel * Pond Statuary & Fountain Pump * “Pond” grab bag in pond planter * “Pond” grab bag in pond planter * “Pond” grab bag in pond planter * “Discus” grab bag * Pond products grag bag * pH increase/buffer/African cichlid grab bag * Marine/Saltwater fish grab bag * Air Supplies/air pump grab bag * Miscellaneous Grab Bags PVAS also will be auctioning off several brand new, high dollar items in this auction beginning at the "Golden Hour" of 12 Noon, including a new RO unit, CO2 tanks with new regulators, a six foot reef tank light, a deep water pond pump, the largest fish room air pump on the market, and a beautiful hand-carved red betta from our own Brian Walsh of the U.K. These items can be previewed by going to: http://www.pvas.com/april11auctionraffle.php THE REFRESHMENTS: The PVAS refreshment crew will have a complete hot-dog lunch available to all auctioneers for $4 and will unveil the very first PVAS BAKE SALE at this event. Items in the bake sale are only $1 so come prepared to stuff yourself! Water and soda will also be available. Wow, I know this was a long email, and thank you all for reading to the bottom. We have an incredible event planned for you on Saturday, so get there early and come prepared to help out for a shift if you can, and have a really good time! See you on Saturday, Sherry Mitchell President Potomac Valley Aquarium Society [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50868	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/28/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

John, I'd probably do smaller water changes for the time being, to more gradually get the fish used to water changes, and the lessening of contaminants in the water. While you did mention the pH of the tank, you did not mention the pH of the tap water. A radical change in pH could have ill effects on the fish in the tank, However, if you have been following this regiment for a few weeks, there probably is not much to worry about at this juncture. Also, you did not give a measurement of the hardness of the water, both tank and tap. Hardness can affect pH, and with the previous keeper only adding tap water to replace what had evaporated, the water may be as hard as a rock. In essence, what you are doing here is akin to acclimating a new fish to your tank's conditions. It needs to be done slowly and gently. If it were me, I'd probably be doing a quart or two for the water change every few days. There are a number of compounds that we do not measure for, either because of the cost of doing so, or the difficulty of doing so. These compounds are generally referred to as DOC,s or Dissolved Organic Carbons, or Compounds. These are generated by the fish themselves, your carp included, and the biological processes occurring in your tank. These are not usually an item of immediate concern, they can adversely affect the fish over time. One of these substances in a hormone that inhibits growth. Stunting, no matter what the cause, is adverse to the general well being of the fish. Regular water changes will hold the amounts of these compounds in check. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 4:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank Hi Everyone, My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make sure we are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do some pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 UK/14 US gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is a large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be thriving at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the filter, also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The filter is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & running for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch the filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but we keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have not altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he only topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard tube in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical grow light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight tannin colouring from the bogwood. I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a small pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing a little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer once every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got the names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" Cherry Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese Algae eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the company of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water changes? Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps but what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon tank & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days using a gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have had the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were before & playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088 .mp4 All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking forward to hearing from you. John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife 7 A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. 74/`7.88.><((((:>.74/`7.88.74/`7.8><((((:> 8.74/`7.8. , .74/`7..><((((:> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <:((((><.74/`7.88.74/`7.8<:((((><8.74/`7.8. , .74/`7..<:((((><74/`7.88. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50869	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could be made a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is properly stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as you are doing. Water params look good. I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they are now or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of their own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a tank with its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require the more frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, including the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a problem as long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient territory & hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more suggest decor than fish. It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some research on each species of fish so you have some background information to work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your neighbor, but you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at least 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. Overall, the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... there are a lot of people in this group who can help. Have a great day! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make sure we > are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do some > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 UK/14 US > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is a > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be thriving > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the filter, > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The filter > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & running > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch the > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but we > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have not > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he only > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard tube > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical grow > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a small > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing a > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer once > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got the > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" Cherry > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese Algae > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the company > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water changes? > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps but > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon tank > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days using a > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have had > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were before & > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking > forward to hearing from you. > > John*<o)))< > * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50870	From: William M	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

The "Algae eater" in question is the Chinese algae eater (not the Siamese) and will get large (about 8 inches or so) and can become very aggressive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. > To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. > Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could be made a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is properly stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as you are doing. Water params look good. > > I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they are now or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of their own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a tank with its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require the more frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, including the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a problem as long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient territory & hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more suggest decor than fish. > > It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some research on each species of fish so you have some background information to work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. > > You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your neighbor, but you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at least 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. Overall, the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. > > I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... there are a lot of people in this group who can help. > > Have a great day! > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a > > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make sure we > > are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined > > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do some > > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 UK/14 US > > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is a > > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be thriving > > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the filter, > > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The filter > > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & running > > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch the > > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but we > > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have not > > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he only > > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets > > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard tube > > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical grow > > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to > > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight > > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a small > > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing a > > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer once > > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got the > > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" Cherry > > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese Algae > > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the company > > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water changes? > > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps but > > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon tank > > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days using a > > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have had > > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were before & > > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a > > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 > > > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking > > forward to hearing from you. > > > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50871	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Thanks for your welcome & also thanks for your help & advice regarding our tank. It is a relief to know I am doing ok. Steve-the pH of both tank & freshly drawn tap water is 7.5 so I guess that is ok? I'm afraid I don't have a KH test kit as I have never needed one for my Carps-do you think I should invest now I have a tropical tank? I knew about the water changes keeping the hormone levels down so the fish don't get stunted. Dawn-thanks for the clarification of our fish, that is nice to know the Gold Barbs are a pair-they are great friends & always side by side. The thinner [male?] fish only has one eye so he always keeps his buddy on that side so he can see her! The Cherry Barb & Silver Tip Tetra are always playing & chasing one another around. The last couple of days the White Tip has been hiding out in the plants bu t comes out to feed & appears to be fine-is this normal behaviour for these types of fish as you mention they like hiding places or do you think there is something wrong? All the others are behaving & looking great. Thanks also for the info regarding not adding any more-makes perfect sense to me, I was just concerned as I know certain types need to be in groups. I'll keep everything as it is. Apologies for not making a note of the temperature-I will check tomorrow when I go round & let you know. I'll also adjust it to 76F if it is not there already-thanks for that. William-I think you are right, the pictures of Chinese Algae Eaters I have found on Google match our fish exactly, the Siamese Algae Eaters appear to be more silver. That aggression is coming out already I think. Sometimes he will come out from under the wood & chase the others around for a couple of seconds, I will keep an eye on him-might have to remove him to a separate tank if he starts to be a problem. A few general queries-There is no airpump so the only surface agitation is caused by The filter jet which looks quite good for the gas transfer-however the outlet is a couple of inches below the surface, I have tried bringing it up higher but it starts to make a grinding sound when the top comes out of the water-the motor is in the top so I'm thinking it is meant to be like this. The make & model is Aqua-Flow 3. I have Googled this & only found a couple of references to it but it has 2 foam compartments. Do I get an airpump & diffuser? Finally regarding the plants-there is a large patch of live plants at one end of the tank that seems to be like a piece of mat in that it is all together but would float up if it were not held down by some pebbles ie it is on top of the gravel rather than in it. Should this be deeper in the gravel so it can grow under the stones? While doing a gravel vac do I lift the bogwood or leave it be & vacuum around it? This is a shot of the littel Cherry Barb hiding under some of the plants & bogwood-can someone ID these plants for me please? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/DSCF1082.jpg the smaller plant in the foreground is already growing in thegravel but the larger 'mat' is behind, I'm guessing they should all be planted like this? I will get some better pictures of the plants tomorrow. John*<o)))< * On 29 March 2011 20:27, William M <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > > The "Algae eater" in question is the Chinese algae eater (not the Siamese) > and will get large (about 8 inches or so) and can become very aggressive. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. > > To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the > species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, > bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back > right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the > species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. > > Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could be made > a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is properly > stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as you are > doing. Water params look good. > > > > I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they are now > or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of their > own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a tank with > its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require the more > frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can > also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, including > the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a problem as > long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient territory & > hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more > suggest decor than fish. > > > > It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some > research on each species of fish so you have some background information to > work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. > > > > You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your neighbor, but > you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in > cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at least > 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. Overall, > the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. > > > > I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... there are > a lot of people in this group who can help. > > > > Have a great day! > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a > > > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make > sure we > > > are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined > > > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do > some > > > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > > > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 > UK/14 US > > > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is > a > > > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be > thriving > > > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the > filter, > > > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The > filter > > > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & > running > > > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch > the > > > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but > we > > > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have > not > > > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he > only > > > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets > > > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard > tube > > > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical > grow > > > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to > > > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight > > > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > > > > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a > small > > > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing > a > > > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer > once > > > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got > the > > > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" > Cherry > > > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese > Algae > > > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the > company > > > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water > changes? > > > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps > but > > > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon > tank > > > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days > using a > > > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have > had > > > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were > before & > > > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a > > > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > > > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 > > > > > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking > > > forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50872	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 3/29/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Welcome to the group John, sounds like you already have some good basic knowledge on fish care from your carps. You'll find a lot of helpful people here :) I just wanted to add one thing about the temperature. Make sure not to raise it more than 2 degrees per day, more than that can cause stress (and possibly even death) to your fish. Your filter is still creating oxygen for the fish even if it's below the water line. Do you ever notice the fish "gasping" at the surface in the morning when you turn the lights on? If not, then I wouldn't worry about needing more oxygen in your water. And lastly, I think your plants are Java Ferns. Do they grow in bunches all attached together on one rhizome? you should also see lots of long stringy roots coming off of this rhizome as well. Java ferns are a nice easy to care for low light requirement plant. If you're looking for more low light plants try looking on www.plantgeek.net (click on plant guide, then light requirements, then low. You can also search by difficulty as well). Amber On 3/29/2011 3:01 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Thanks for your welcome & also thanks for your help & advice regarding our > tank. It is a relief to know I am doing ok. > > Steve-the pH of both tank & freshly drawn tap water is 7.5 so I guess that > is ok? I'm afraid I don't have a KH test kit as I have never needed > one for > my Carps-do you think I should invest now I have a tropical tank? I knew > about the water changes keeping the hormone levels down so the fish don't > get stunted. > > Dawn-thanks for the clarification of our fish, that is nice to know > the Gold > Barbs are a pair-they are great friends & always side by side. The thinner > [male?] fish only has one eye so he always keeps his buddy on that side so > he can see her! The Cherry Barb & Silver Tip Tetra are always playing & > chasing one another around. The last couple of days the White Tip has been > hiding out in the plants bu t comes out to feed & appears to be > fine-is this > normal behaviour for these types of fish as you mention they like hiding > places or do you think there is something wrong? All the others are > behaving > & looking great. Thanks also for the info regarding not adding any > more-makes perfect sense to me, I was just concerned as I know certain > types > need to be in groups. I'll keep everything as it is. Apologies for not > making a note of the temperature-I will check tomorrow when I go round > & let > you know. I'll also adjust it to 76F if it is not there already-thanks for > that. > > William-I think you are right, the pictures of Chinese Algae Eaters I have > found on Google match our fish exactly, the Siamese Algae Eaters appear to > be more silver. That aggression is coming out already I think. > Sometimes he > will come out from under the wood & chase the others around for a > couple of > seconds, I will keep an eye on him-might have to remove him to a separate > tank if he starts to be a problem. > > A few general queries-There is no airpump so the only surface agitation is > caused by The filter jet which looks quite good for the gas > transfer-however > the outlet is a couple of inches below the surface, I have tried > bringing it > up higher but it starts to make a grinding sound when the top comes out of > the water-the motor is in the top so I'm thinking it is meant to be like > this. The make & model is Aqua-Flow 3. I have Googled this & only found a > couple of references to it but it has 2 foam compartments. Do I get an > airpump & diffuser? > > Finally regarding the plants-there is a large patch of live plants at one > end of the tank that seems to be like a piece of mat in that it is all > together but would float up if it were not held down by some pebbles ie it > is on top of the gravel rather than in it. Should this be deeper in the > gravel so it can grow under the stones? While doing a gravel vac do I lift > the bogwood or leave it be & vacuum around it? This is a shot of the > littel > Cherry Barb hiding under some of the plants & bogwood-can someone ID these > plants for me please? > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/DSCF1082.jpg the smaller > plant in the foreground is already growing in thegravel but the larger > 'mat' > is behind, I'm guessing they should all be planted like this? I will get > some better pictures of the plants tomorrow. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 29 March 2011 20:27, William M <dreammaker2623@... > <mailto:dreammaker2623%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > The "Algae eater" in question is the Chinese algae eater (not the > Siamese) > > and will get large (about 8 inches or so) and can become very > aggressive. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. > > > To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the > > species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, > > bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back > > right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the > > species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. > > > Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could > be made > > a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is > properly > > stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as > you are > > doing. Water params look good. > > > > > > I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they > are now > > or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of > their > > own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a > tank with > > its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require > the more > > frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can > > also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, > including > > the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a > problem as > > long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient > territory & > > hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more > > suggest decor than fish. > > > > > > It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some > > research on each species of fish so you have some background > information to > > work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. > > > > > > You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your > neighbor, but > > you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in > > cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at > least > > 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. > Overall, > > the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... > there are > > a lot of people in this group who can help. > > > > > > Have a great day! > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend > inherited a > > > > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make > > sure we > > > > are doing everything right. I have experience with various > streamlined > > > > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & > also do > > some > > > > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > > > > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 > > UK/14 US > > > > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. > There is > > a > > > > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be > > thriving > > > > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the > > filter, > > > > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on > it. The > > filter > > > > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & > > running > > > > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to > switch > > the > > > > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best > idea but > > we > > > > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which > I have > > not > > > > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he > > only > > > > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the > tank gets > > > > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a > standard > > tube > > > > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink > tropical > > grow > > > > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is > used to > > > > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a > slight > > > > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > > > > > > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a > > small > > > > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started > introducing > > a > > > > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an > algae wafer > > once > > > > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I > have got > > the > > > > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" > > Cherry > > > > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" > Siamese > > Algae > > > > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the > > company > > > > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water > > changes? > > > > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big > Carps > > but > > > > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 > gallon > > tank > > > > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days > > using a > > > > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since > we have > > had > > > > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were > > before & > > > > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! > Here is a > > > > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > > > > > > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 > <http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4> > > > > > > > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted > upon-looking > > > > forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50873	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

John, Gaseous exchange will occur even if there is no movement at the surface of the water. Any substance that is dissolved in the water will tend to distribute itself evenly throughout the water. If there is a film at the surface of the water, though, it will hinder or stop the exchange. All you need is water movement to help along the exchange, not necessarily agitation. Even though the filter outlet is under water, this will cause some surface movement as water is displaced by the release from the filter. Water hardness is important for any aquatic creature. Carp are more tolerant than other fish of various levels of hardness, so it may be seen as unimportant. Most fish can seem to do well in a wide range of hardness, but in truth, they may be living shorter, less healthy lives as their natural osmotic regulation fights to maintain a certain internal balance that nature has programmed into the fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 7:02 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank Thanks for your welcome & also thanks for your help & advice regarding our tank. It is a relief to know I am doing ok. Steve-the pH of both tank & freshly drawn tap water is 7.5 so I guess that is ok? I'm afraid I don't have a KH test kit as I have never needed one for my Carps-do you think I should invest now I have a tropical tank? I knew about the water changes keeping the hormone levels down so the fish don't get stunted. Dawn-thanks for the clarification of our fish, that is nice to know the Gold Barbs are a pair-they are great friends & always side by side. The thinner [male?] fish only has one eye so he always keeps his buddy on that side so he can see her! The Cherry Barb & Silver Tip Tetra are always playing & chasing one another around. The last couple of days the White Tip has been hiding out in the plants bu t comes out to feed & appears to be fine-is this normal behaviour for these types of fish as you mention they like hiding places or do you think there is something wrong? All the others are behaving & looking great. Thanks also for the info regarding not adding any more-makes perfect sense to me, I was just concerned as I know certain types need to be in groups. I'll keep everything as it is. Apologies for not making a note of the temperature-I will check tomorrow when I go round & let you know. I'll also adjust it to 76F if it is not there already-thanks for that. William-I think you are right, the pictures of Chinese Algae Eaters I have found on Google match our fish exactly, the Siamese Algae Eaters appear to be more silver. That aggression is coming out already I think. Sometimes he will come out from under the wood & chase the others around for a couple of seconds, I will keep an eye on him-might have to remove him to a separate tank if he starts to be a problem. A few general queries-There is no airpump so the only surface agitation is caused by The filter jet which looks quite good for the gas transfer-however the outlet is a couple of inches below the surface, I have tried bringing it up higher but it starts to make a grinding sound when the top comes out of the water-the motor is in the top so I'm thinking it is meant to be like this. The make & model is Aqua-Flow 3. I have Googled this & only found a couple of references to it but it has 2 foam compartments. Do I get an airpump & diffuser? Finally regarding the plants-there is a large patch of live plants at one end of the tank that seems to be like a piece of mat in that it is all together but would float up if it were not held down by some pebbles ie it is on top of the gravel rather than in it. Should this be deeper in the gravel so it can grow under the stones? While doing a gravel vac do I lift the bogwood or leave it be & vacuum around it? This is a shot of the littel Cherry Barb hiding under some of the plants & bogwood-can someone ID these plants for me please? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/DSCF1082.jpg the smaller plant in the foreground is already growing in thegravel but the larger 'mat' is behind, I'm guessing they should all be planted like this? I will get some better pictures of the plants tomorrow. John*<o)))< * On 29 March 2011 20:27, William M <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > > The "Algae eater" in question is the Chinese algae eater (not the Siamese) > and will get large (about 8 inches or so) and can become very aggressive. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. > > To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the > species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, > bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back > right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the > species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. > > Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could be made > a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is properly > stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as you are > doing. Water params look good. > > > > I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they are now > or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of their > own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a tank with > its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require the more > frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can > also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, including > the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a problem as > long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient territory & > hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more > suggest decor than fish. > > > > It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some > research on each species of fish so you have some background information to > work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. > > > > You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your neighbor, but > you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in > cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at least > 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. Overall, > the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. > > > > I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... there are > a lot of people in this group who can help. > > > > Have a great day! > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a > > > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make > sure we > > > are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined > > > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do > some > > > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > > > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 > UK/14 US > > > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is > a > > > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be > thriving > > > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the > filter, > > > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The > filter > > > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & > running > > > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch > the > > > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but > we > > > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have > not > > > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he > only > > > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets > > > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard > tube > > > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical > grow > > > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to > > > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight > > > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > > > > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a > small > > > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing > a > > > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer > once > > > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got > the > > > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" > Cherry > > > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese > Algae > > > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the > company > > > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water > changes? > > > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps > but > > > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon > tank > > > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days > using a > > > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have > had > > > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were > before & > > > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a > > > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > > > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088 .mp4 > > > > > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking > > > forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > * > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50874	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

I apologize for the mistake on the algae eater ID. I found it a bit difficult to see it in the video (very dark). While you may see it as "fun" with the chasing going on between the cherry barb and silver tip tetra, I can assure you the fish are not finding it as "fun". This is a sign of aggression and constant chasing like that can cause extreme amounts of stress. It may be a territory issue, so more plants and/or decor should help to resolve this situation. Silver tip tetras are pretty passive by nature, and it may be that it just isn't going to work alone with the barbs. Barbs, by nature, tend to be aggressive. While gold and cherry barbs are known to be the most peaceful of the barbs, that doesn't make them as peaceful as some of the tetra species. If added decor doesn't help the problem you may need to rehome the tetra to a more peaceful habitat. Some people will advise that you simply need more fish in either or both species. I would not suggest that as a solution for 2 reasons. One, the size of your tank, and two, because cherry barbs don't usually change the habit when in a group, and with fish such as the barbs, offering them a school of tetras to torment only means more fish to chase and stress. When decorating the tank be sure to fill up all levels of the tank with something to break up the territory. Many people keep all of the decor in the lower 1/2 of the tank, which makes the upper territory wide open and seen by the fish as a single territory, and only 1 fish is going to rule that territory. This can create a lot of stress during feeding time and prevent the weaker fish from coming up for food safely. In an aquarium, there is no such thing as too much decor if it will fit into the tank. The more the better. Java fern (which Amber correctly identified in your photo) can be a lot of fun and doesn't need to be planted into the substrate. Java fern is often tucked into crevices and knot holes of wood, tied with fishing line to large rocks, etc. Because java fern tolerates higher lighting well (grows faster with larger leaves) this can be a great plant for breaking up the upper areas of the tank while putting lower light needing plants such as java moss, crypts, and some of the aponogeton species down below for ground cover and mid range cover. Because of the java fern down low, be careful with floating plants to break up the upper area of the tank, you don't want to shade out the existing plants. Things such as duckweed, hornwort, etc, will quickly shade out live plants growing beneath them, especially in a smaller tank. Your pair of gold barbs... the one with the darker, heavier markings is the male. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Thanks for your welcome & also thanks for your help & advice regarding our > tank. It is a relief to know I am doing ok. > > Steve-the pH of both tank & freshly drawn tap water is 7.5 so I guess that > is ok? I'm afraid I don't have a KH test kit as I have never needed one for > my Carps-do you think I should invest now I have a tropical tank? I knew > about the water changes keeping the hormone levels down so the fish don't > get stunted. > > Dawn-thanks for the clarification of our fish, that is nice to know the Gold > Barbs are a pair-they are great friends & always side by side. The thinner > [male?] fish only has one eye so he always keeps his buddy on that side so > he can see her! The Cherry Barb & Silver Tip Tetra are always playing & > chasing one another around. The last couple of days the White Tip has been > hiding out in the plants bu t comes out to feed & appears to be fine-is this > normal behaviour for these types of fish as you mention they like hiding > places or do you think there is something wrong? All the others are behaving > & looking great. Thanks also for the info regarding not adding any > more-makes perfect sense to me, I was just concerned as I know certain types > need to be in groups. I'll keep everything as it is. Apologies for not > making a note of the temperature-I will check tomorrow when I go round & let > you know. I'll also adjust it to 76F if it is not there already-thanks for > that. > > William-I think you are right, the pictures of Chinese Algae Eaters I have > found on Google match our fish exactly, the Siamese Algae Eaters appear to > be more silver. That aggression is coming out already I think. Sometimes he > will come out from under the wood & chase the others around for a couple of > seconds, I will keep an eye on him-might have to remove him to a separate > tank if he starts to be a problem. > > A few general queries-There is no airpump so the only surface agitation is > caused by The filter jet which looks quite good for the gas transfer-however > the outlet is a couple of inches below the surface, I have tried bringing it > up higher but it starts to make a grinding sound when the top comes out of > the water-the motor is in the top so I'm thinking it is meant to be like > this. The make & model is Aqua-Flow 3. I have Googled this & only found a > couple of references to it but it has 2 foam compartments. Do I get an > airpump & diffuser? > > Finally regarding the plants-there is a large patch of live plants at one > end of the tank that seems to be like a piece of mat in that it is all > together but would float up if it were not held down by some pebbles ie it > is on top of the gravel rather than in it. Should this be deeper in the > gravel so it can grow under the stones? While doing a gravel vac do I lift > the bogwood or leave it be & vacuum around it? This is a shot of the littel > Cherry Barb hiding under some of the plants & bogwood-can someone ID these > plants for me please? > http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/DSCF1082.jpg the smaller > plant in the foreground is already growing in thegravel but the larger 'mat' > is behind, I'm guessing they should all be planted like this? I will get > some better pictures of the plants tomorrow. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 29 March 2011 20:27, William M <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > > > > > > The "Algae eater" in question is the Chinese algae eater (not the Siamese) > > and will get large (about 8 inches or so) and can become very aggressive. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, welcome to the group and congrats on your new tank and fish. > > > To get started, after seeing your video clip, I'd like to clarify the > > species names for you... I saw 1 male cherry barb (way in the back left, > > bright red), 2 gold barbs (front and center), a silver tip tetra (back > > right) and a siamese algae eater. So, you were almost correct about the > > species names. The gold barbs appear to be a male/female pair. > > > Your maintenance routine seems to be just fine, however, it could be made > > a bit easier for you if you change 25 - 30% each week. The tank is properly > > stocked, so there should be no reason to change water as often as you are > > doing. Water params look good. > > > > > > I would not add more fish to this tank. Barbs can do well as they are now > > or in a group. Tetras tend to do better in a school of 5 or more of their > > own species, but adding 4 more silver tip tetras to that size of a tank with > > its current stock would be pushing the stocking limits and require the more > > frequent maintenance to keep it clean and healthy. Crowding the fish can > > also bring aggression issues. I have kept many species of tetras, including > > the silver tips, as singles, pairs, and trios, and never found a problem as > > long as the water quality is maintained and there is sufficient territory & > > hiding places. If you desire to add anything to this tank, I would more > > suggest decor than fish. > > > > > > It sounds like you have a good start, but you may wish to do some > > research on each species of fish so you have some background information to > > work with in case there is a question or problem in the future. > > > > > > You mentioned you left the heater where it was set by your neighbor, but > > you didn't mention what temp the tank is holding at? Barbs can thrive in > > cooler temps down to about 70 - 72F, however, the tetra will need at least > > 76 - 78F to thrive. The algae eater will thrive between 74 - 76. Overall, > > the best temp for the combination you are keeping would be 76F. > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you have more questions, please do ask... there are > > a lot of people in this group who can help. > > > > > > Have a great day! > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > My name is John & I come from Leicester UK. My girlfriend inherited a > > > > tropical tank from one of her neighbours last week & I want to make > > sure we > > > > are doing everything right. I have experience with various streamlined > > > > ornamental Carps-I have a 109 gallon acrylic tank with 9 fish & also do > > some > > > > pond maintenance for friends but I have very little experience with > > > > tropicals. The tank in question is glass, on a stand & is about 12 > > UK/14 US > > > > gallons capacity with approx 1" of round gravel in the bottom. There is > > a > > > > large patch of real plants-unsure what the are but they seem to be > > thriving > > > > at one end of the tank & a small patch of them at the other near the > > filter, > > > > also a piece of bogwood which has some green algae growing on it. The > > filter > > > > is a small internal which is well matured as the tank has been up & > > running > > > > for several years before we got it. The previous owner used to switch > > the > > > > filter off every couple of days which I guess wasn't the best idea but > > we > > > > keep it running all the time, there is also a small heater which I have > > not > > > > altered. When I asked about partial water changes I was told that he > > only > > > > topped it up when it evaporated. I have put in a timer so the tank gets > > > > about 8 hours of light a day. When the tank arrived it has a standard > > tube > > > > in it that was well past it's prime so I swapped it for a pink tropical > > grow > > > > light. The parameters look perfect, at least to someone who is used to > > > > keeping Goldfish: Ammo=0, NO2=0, NO3=25, pH=7.5. The water has a slight > > > > tannin colouring from the bogwood. > > > > > > > > I am following the feeding regime of the previous owner which is a > > small > > > > pinch of regular flake food per day but I have also started introducing > > a > > > > little Hikari Marine 'S' occasionally & also dropping in an algae wafer > > once > > > > every week for the algae eater. There are 5 fish & I think I have got > > the > > > > names right but please correct me if not!! 1 x 3" Rosy Barb, 1 x 3" > > Cherry > > > > Barb, 1 x 1" Red Dwarf Barb, 1 x 1" Silver Tip Tetra & 1 x 4" Siamese > > Algae > > > > eater. Can we add some more fish & do those we already have need the > > company > > > > of more of their own kind to thrive better? How about partial water > > changes? > > > > Obviously these fishes make considerably less waste than my big Carps > > but > > > > what sort of amount of water do I need to be changing with a 12 gallon > > tank > > > > & how often? At present I am changing about 2 gallons every 3-4 days > > using a > > > > gravel vac & rinsing the filter sponges in the old water. Since we have > > had > > > > the tank the fish all appear to be much more lively than they were > > before & > > > > playing around so I hope I am doing at least something right! Here is a > > > > short video clip of the tank showing all 5 occupants: > > > > > > http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=DSCF1088.mp4 > > > > > > > > All comments & advice gratefully received & will be acted upon-looking > > > > forward to hearing from you. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50875	From: haecklers	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Pearl gourami fry question

I guess I'm getting impatient - my pearl gourami fry are around 3/4" and still look pretty plain. Unlike for bettas, there are almost no sites on rearing gourami fry with pictures. How long until their colors start to show and their bodies stop being translucent?? BTW, the parents are STILL spawning every 10 days or so. Whenever I do a water change, I'm inevitably knocking gourami fry out of the nest, once it was eggs about to hatch - I could see tails sticking out of the eggs but not heads or eyes. The next day there were hundreds of black gourami fry where the eggs had been the day before. Now the mother gourami seems to be defending the nesting site as well, I've seen both of them chasing the other fish back down to the bottom of the tank. So far they appear to have killed two guppies, I think by ramming them since they don't seem to bite the fish. The female is ever fatter with eggs, she is positively bulging in the middle these days.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50876	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Hi All, There are 2 thermometers in the tank- one is a stick-on-the-side strip that measures 72F & the other is glass & inside measuring 65F. I'm not 100% sure that this is accurate so I will get a new one tomorrow & see what that says. From experience I have learnt not to trust the strips too much as they are measuring the room temperature as well as that in the tank so probably giving a false reading. Amber-depending on what the new thermometer says I will be sure not to raise the temperature more than 2 degrees per day, probably only 1 to be on the safe side. The good news is fish have never gasped at the surface so I guess everything is ok in that department. Yes-it definitely is Java Fern, I Googled it & that's an exact match! Thanks for the plant website-duly bookmarked. Dawn-apologies for my rubbish dark video! I should have posted something easier to view. I'm concerned with what you tell me about the Tetra being harassed, When we first got the tank he was out & about with the other fish but in the last few days he has taken to hiding in the plants & only appearing at feeding times-I didn't mean to imply I thought it was fun-until now almost all of my experience with fish behaviour has been with large, playful Comets messing around, small tropicals is a whole new ball-game so I intend to sort it one way or another, we are very fond of this little Tetra & would not want anything bad to happen to him. I completely understand your reasoning that adding more fish will only give the Barbs more to chase so I am interested in filling up the different levels of the tank to give him some cover. I am thinking I could add some bunches of straight Vallis which would go right to the top of the tank & act in some way to break the open space up-especially if I planted them across the middle of the tank from front to back & Vallis being vertical rather than horizontal in bulk should not block any significant light from the Java Ferm-what do you think? Also do you think Vallis is ok or should I go for something else? The reason I mentioned Vallis is I have plenty of experience with it as it is the only plant my crazy Goldfish have not managed to uproot & destroy! John<o)))< --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > I apologize for the mistake on the algae eater ID. I found it a bit difficult to see it in the video (very dark). > > While you may see it as "fun" with the chasing going on between the cherry barb and silver tip tetra, I can assure you the fish are not finding it as "fun". This is a sign of aggression and constant chasing like that can cause extreme amounts of stress. It may be a territory issue, so more plants and/or decor should help to resolve this situation. Silver tip tetras are pretty passive by nature, and it may be that it just isn't going to work alone with the barbs. Barbs, by nature, tend to be aggressive. While gold and cherry barbs are known to be the most peaceful of the barbs, that doesn't make them as peaceful as some of the tetra species. If added decor doesn't help the problem you may need to rehome the tetra to a more peaceful habitat. > > Some people will advise that you simply need more fish in either or both species. I would not suggest that as a solution for 2 reasons. One, the size of your tank, and two, because cherry barbs don't usually change the habit when in a group, and with fish such as the barbs, offering them a school of tetras to torment only means more fish to chase and stress. > > When decorating the tank be sure to fill up all levels of the tank with something to break up the territory. Many people keep all of the decor in the lower 1/2 of the tank, which makes the upper territory wide open and seen by the fish as a single territory, and only 1 fish is going to rule that territory. This can create a lot of stress during feeding time and prevent the weaker fish from coming up for food safely. In an aquarium, there is no such thing as too much decor if it will fit into the tank. The more the better. > > Java fern (which Amber correctly identified in your photo) can be a lot of fun and doesn't need to be planted into the substrate. Java fern is often tucked into crevices and knot holes of wood, tied with fishing line to large rocks, etc. Because java fern tolerates higher lighting well (grows faster with larger leaves) this can be a great plant for breaking up the upper areas of the tank while putting lower light needing plants such as java moss, crypts, and some of the aponogeton species down below for ground cover and mid range cover. > > Because of the java fern down low, be careful with floating plants to break up the upper area of the tank, you don't want to shade out the existing plants. Things such as duckweed, hornwort, etc, will quickly shade out live plants growing beneath them, especially in a smaller tank. > > Your pair of gold barbs... the one with the darker, heavier markings is the male. > > > Dawn > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50877	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/30/2011
Subject: VT: House Bill 371 "animal hoarding" In Committee

H.371 is now assigned to the Agriculture Committee. I did speak with some people from Vermont over the weekend, as I ran into them at an event I was attending in CT, and they had not heard about this bill. I told them about it. One of them told me that the end of the legislative session was to be this week, though they often missed their deadline. I found the Legislative Chair of the group holding the event, and talked to him about it. He was also unaware of the existence of this bill. I sent him relevant links to the bill and the law it amends. I am hoping word gets around up there now. There are now two clubs in this organization, plus I also know of another, but do not know if it is still active. I have not done enough research yet to know if the bill will still be alive when this session is adjourned, but the legislature is on a biennial schedule. Link to the bill: http://www.leg.state.vt.us/docs/2012/bills/intro/H-371.pdf TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/5ujhd9v Link to the law being amended by the above: http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvtst_T13_351.htm#s351 TinyURL: http://tinyurl.com/4ugsq7t \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50878	From: Al Keep	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: family.

my cory laid eggs.... hopefully i get some younguns....its a first so ive been reading up on how to take care of the youngsters... :- )>>>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50879	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Good news I think. Today during a water change I added several small bunches of Corkscrew Vallis across the middle of the tank from front to backeffectively dividing it in half right to the waters surface. I also added another plant to an open area at the front. Once the tank was filled back up & the filter switched on all 5 fish became very active & had a good look round-the 2 Gold Barbs & Algae Eater inspected the new Vallis while the reclusive Tetra came out & is noticeably less stressed as she now has her own area at one end-she particularly likes spending time under the new plant which is nice to see. The Red Barb is also behaving himself & not chasing the Tetra so hopefully I have sorted the territorial issues. Good news also on the temperature front-the actual reading is 73F so I'm thinking I should leave well alone now-what do you think? John*<o)))<* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50880	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 3/31/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

I would probably take the temp up to 75, which would be a decent median temperature for the fish you have. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:17 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank Good news I think. Today during a water change I added several small bunches of Corkscrew Vallis across the middle of the tank from front to backeffectively dividing it in half right to the waters surface. I also added another plant to an open area at the front. Once the tank was filled back up & the filter switched on all 5 fish became very active & had a good look round-the 2 Gold Barbs & Algae Eater inspected the new Vallis while the reclusive Tetra came out & is noticeably less stressed as she now has her own area at one end-she particularly likes spending time under the new plant which is nice to see. The Red Barb is also behaving himself & not chasing the Tetra so hopefully I have sorted the territorial issues. Good news also on the temperature front-the actual reading is 73F so I'm thinking I should leave well alone now-what do you think? John*<o)))<*

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50881	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Thats great news! I agree with Steve about bumping the temp up to 75 - 76 degrees. 73 is a bit too low. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I would probably take the temp up to 75, which would be a decent median > temperature for the fish you have. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small > Tropical Tank > > Good news I think. Today during a water change I added several small bunches > of Corkscrew Vallis across the middle of the tank from front to > backeffectively dividing it in half right to the waters surface. I > also added > another plant to an open area at the front. Once the tank was filled back up > & the filter switched on all 5 fish became very active & had a good look > round-the 2 Gold Barbs & Algae Eater inspected the new Vallis while the > reclusive Tetra came out & is noticeably less stressed as she now has her > own area at one end-she particularly likes spending time under the new plant > which is nice to see. The Red Barb is also behaving himself & not chasing > the Tetra so hopefully I have sorted the territorial issues. > > Good news also on the temperature front-the actual reading is 73F so I'm > thinking I should leave well alone now-what do you think? > > John*<o)))<* >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50882	From: Neener	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: (no subject)

I would just let them fend for themselves.  I randomly find already hatched Cory's in my tank all the time.  I just feed with flake food as normal and they grow up happy and healthy.  I don't do anything special for them.  Congrats though, baby Cory's are the cutest things ever.  Good luck!   <font style="BACKGROUND-COLOR:#dfbfff;" face="arial black" color="#a040ff"><font color="#800080"> </font><font face="Queer" color="#800080" size="7">JANNINE</font><font color="#800080"></font></font> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50883	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Supplies

Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50884	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/1/2011
Subject: Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small Tropical Tank

Consider it done! Thanks so much for all your help. John*<o)))< * On 1 April 2011 20:28, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > Thats great news! I agree with Steve about bumping the temp up to 75 - 76 > degrees. 73 is a bit too low. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > I would probably take the temp up to 75, which would be a decent median > > temperature for the fish you have. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:17 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Advice Wanted For Inherited Mature Small > > Tropical Tank > > > > Good news I think. Today during a water change I added several small > bunches > > of Corkscrew Vallis across the middle of the tank from front to > > backeffectively dividing it in half right to the waters surface. I > > also added > > another plant to an open area at the front. Once the tank was filled back > up > > & the filter switched on all 5 fish became very active & had a good look > > round-the 2 Gold Barbs & Algae Eater inspected the new Vallis while the > > reclusive Tetra came out & is noticeably less stressed as she now has her > > own area at one end-she particularly likes spending time under the new > plant > > which is nice to see. The Red Barb is also behaving himself & not chasing > > the Tetra so hopefully I have sorted the territorial issues. > > > > Good news also on the temperature front-the actual reading is 73F so I'm > > thinking I should leave well alone now-what do you think? > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50885	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Who knew? Dolphins don't like rain

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/blog/2011/04/photo-blog-who-knew-dolphins-dont.html http://tinyurl.com/3ohd2kd Photo blog: Who knew? Dolphins don't like rain Tampa Bay Business Journal - by Kathleen Cabble Date: Friday, April 1, 2011, 1:13pm EDT - Last Modified: Friday, April 1, 2011, 1:18pm EDT View photo gallery (10 photos) Thunderstorms soaked the Tampa Bay area all day when I went over to Clearwater in search of an aquatic movie star. With swimming and tanning not an option, tourists, spring breakers and locals were looking for something to do. So they came to the Clearwater Marine Aquarium to see Winter, star of her own, soon to be released movie, "Dolphin Tale." A total of 1,524 people visited the aquarium that day. People lined the three tanks holding Winter, the dolphin with the prosthetic tail, and Panama, a deaf dolphin, waiting for the presentation to begin. The CMA has a large outside tank and two smaller tanks under cover. Trainers took me to the platform poolside, next to the buckets of fish (also known as dolphin treats). The dolphins hung around the outside tank, but the weather got worse by the minute. The trainers warned me that getting photos might not be easy due to the weather. That had me puzzled. The rain came hard, and the dolphins retreated to the back tanks. Dolphins don't like rain. In the wild they go deeper to avoid the stuff. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50886	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Living Near Hyerabad, India?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/the-fish-tank-upgrade/147888-60-121.html http://tinyurl.com/44znvln The fish tank upgrade Posted on Apr 01, 2011 at 01:17am IST HYDERABAD: At one time, it was considered fancy to have a 'fish bowl' at home with a couple of goldfish doing their thing, surfacing occasionally for a gulp of fish food. Today, the fish bowl has been replaced by customised aquariums that offer a reproduction of the ocean or river bed, complete with exotic inhabitants. And they have design advantages too. So whether you truly appreciate these graceful creatures, or simply want to add some colour to your living room, here's how to get started. Got extra space? "The first thing many customers have asked me is, 'how big an aquarium can I make'," says Meeran of Aquarium India. "Most of my home aquarium projects have been bigger than my commercial projects," he adds. The shape, size or location of an aquarium is no longer a constraint - think aquarium walls, floors, tunnels, plasma aquariums and so on. If you have an idea, however wild, there's a good chance that you, and an aquarium expert can make it happen. Nandakumar of Bloo Aqua Studio, Bangalore, advises that when going in for a big aquarium, "one must adhere to set parameters to ensure that nitrogen cycles, filter dynamics and general well being of the livestock is not affected in the long run. Ideally, the width and height of the tank should be the same, but since this is not always feasible, the width should be at least three fourths the height." Short on time? You don't need to know much about fish to own an aquarium. Leading aquarium dealers not only install super size tanks but handle maintenance on an annual contract. This involves a regular check up of vitals such as salinity, PH, temperature, circulation and filter replacements. "We dispatch a team twice a week, and apart from the checklist, they also monitor livestock activity to ensure that they are in harmony with their habitat and each other," says Meeran. If any fish are found to be inactive or sick, they will be taken back, quarantined, nursed to health and even replaced if necessary. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50887	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Swallower

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3780&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_1_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Swallower&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3bzneqt [Photos available at site. scs] Weird fish of the week: Swallower In our search for piscine peculiarity we plunge back into the darkness of the ocean's abyss as we take a look at the sinisterly monickered Black or Great swallower, Chiasmodon niger. On first inspection these fish look little different to many others found lurking in the deep ocean's darkness. At around 25cm/10" long it's certainly not a giant and neither is it covered in flashy photophores or endowed with eyes the size of dinner plates - instead it looks a bit like a slightly sickly haddock which has accidentally got a set of Halloween plastic vampire teeth stuck in its mouth. It's a closer inspection of this dentition and the jaws which contain it that unlock the weirdness of this fish and explain its common and scientific names. Both the upper and lower, prognathous jaws are filled with long, interlocking backward pointing teeth, the first few of which are especially long meaning any prey caught is unlikely to wriggle free. The species scientific name eludes to this, Chiasmodon coming from the Greek words for 'cross' and 'teeth'. These jaws are remarkably extendable with both upper and lower jaws articulated, allowing the fish to open its mouth in a huge gape to swallow larger prey and this it certainly does. The fish isn't sometimes called the Great swallower without reason as it has a massively distensible stomach in which it can hold and digest prey over twice its own body length and around ten times its own mass. It has been speculated that the fish manages this by 'walking' its jaws along its victim in the manner of a snake until it is squeezed coiled into the swallower's belly. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50888	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: The 10 Worst Community Fish of All Time

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3782&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_1_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_community_fish_of_all_time&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3swfu5b [Photos available at site. scs] The 10 worst community fish of all time The community fish tank is the most popular type of aquarium we own, yet some community choices head rapidly towards an ASBO. Here is our list of 10 fish that are probably best left out... Angelfish You may be surprised to read that one of the world's most popular community fish has appeared on this list when surely they are angelic? Not so, as these cichlids grow large, eat small fish like Neon tetras and become aggressive and territorial when breeding. Freshwater "sharks" Red tail black sharks and Ruby sharks are strikingly coloured and provide movement lower down in the aquarium, but their territorial tendencies can drive them (and you!) mad, as they constantly chase and stress your other fish. Silver sharks are peaceful but grow to over a foot in length, are skittish, and will eat small fish like Neon tetras. Plecs Common plecs and Gibbiceps are good algae eaters but grow way too large for the average aquarium at 45cm/18". They also leave long strings of poo everywhere, get caught up in and uproot your plants. Golden nuggets (above) are high on the wish list of many, but they hide, can get very large and aggressive and are short lived in the average aquaria. Parrot cichlids These Severum/Midas cichlid crosses are popular because of their intelligence and cute faces, yet can grow to over 25cm/10" in length, eat small fish, get gravel stuck in their deformed mouths and lay sterile eggs everywhere. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50889	From: suemfrancis	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Hi I have had a 6,000 - 7,000 litre pond up and running since last August - for mainly goldfish. I purchased a new filter and pump last autumn which cleared the water nicely and then I packed it up for winter (not recommended to operate under 10degC). A few weeks ago I set it up again and to my horror today found 3 adult newts (dead)stuck half in and half out of the slits in pump (Oase pump). On googling this problem it seems many others have this same problem with not only newts, but tadpoles and small fish getting sucked into pumps. I have found a few suggestions (nylon tights around the pump but some say the claws of the newts get stuck in the mesh). For a short term solution I have a laundry bag that lets water in/out used to stop dog hair messing up the washing machine which I have zipped around it, but as there are no visable holes I would imagine that any dirt would not be able to get through to the filter? although the water is flowing freely, so the UV light will still be functioning. Has anyone else any better suggestion??? Many thanks Sue Francis

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50890	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Don't know where you live, but if there are ever Garage Sales in your area, they are great places to pick up odds and ends (except used heaters) at radically cheap prices. ¢'s on the $. Look around, News Papers do hold some news. >Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have >names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now >breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully >running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of >which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get >my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I >need all the accessories, filter & heater >especially. So please if anyone is looking to >sell some used supplies please e-mail me. -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50891	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Maybe a more powerful pump, the better to grind up trapped critters? Seriously, though, you have a pretty good sounding temporary solution. Just keep an eye on the bag for it getting dirty. This will indicate that the cloth is beginning to clog, and that the bag should be removed and flushed to rid it of the collection. If it is possible, try turning inside out and placing it on the pump again as this may help to unclog the pores that are getting clogged. A better solution would be to create a skimmer/overflow outlet to collect the water for the pump to push/pull through your system. This should prevent any critters, for the most part, coming into contact with your pump and allow your filter(s) to perform their job as they were designed to do. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of suemfrancis Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 10:51 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump Hi I have had a 6,000 - 7,000 litre pond up and running since last August - for mainly goldfish. I purchased a new filter and pump last autumn which cleared the water nicely and then I packed it up for winter (not recommended to operate under 10degC). A few weeks ago I set it up again and to my horror today found 3 adult newts (dead)stuck half in and half out of the slits in pump (Oase pump). On googling this problem it seems many others have this same problem with not only newts, but tadpoles and small fish getting sucked into pumps. I have found a few suggestions (nylon tights around the pump but some say the claws of the newts get stuck in the mesh). For a short term solution I have a laundry bag that lets water in/out used to stop dog hair messing up the washing machine which I have zipped around it, but as there are no visable holes I would imagine that any dirt would not be able to get through to the filter? although the water is flowing freely, so the UV light will still be functioning. Has anyone else any better suggestion??? Many thanks Sue Francis

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50892	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50893	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Community Fish of All Time

Parrot fish bite as well, can be in a breeding situation and jump out of the water to get at you. I have had my husband hold a net to separate us so I can clean. --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] The 10 Worst Community Fish of All Time To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 11:58 AM   http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3782&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_1_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_community_fish_of_all_time&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3swfu5b [Photos available at site. scs] The 10 worst community fish of all time The community fish tank is the most popular type of aquarium we own, yet some community choices head rapidly towards an ASBO. Here is our list of 10 fish that are probably best left out... Angelfish You may be surprised to read that one of the world's most popular community fish has appeared on this list when surely they are angelic? Not so, as these cichlids grow large, eat small fish like Neon tetras and become aggressive and territorial when breeding. Freshwater "sharks" Red tail black sharks and Ruby sharks are strikingly coloured and provide movement lower down in the aquarium, but their territorial tendencies can drive them (and you!) mad, as they constantly chase and stress your other fish. Silver sharks are peaceful but grow to over a foot in length, are skittish, and will eat small fish like Neon tetras. Plecs Common plecs and Gibbiceps are good algae eaters but grow way too large for the average aquarium at 45cm/18". They also leave long strings of poo everywhere, get caught up in and uproot your plants. Golden nuggets (above) are high on the wish list of many, but they hide, can get very large and aggressive and are short lived in the average aquaria. Parrot cichlids These Severum/Midas cichlid crosses are popular because of their intelligence and cute faces, yet can grow to over 25cm/10" in length, eat small fish, get gravel stuck in their deformed mouths and lay sterile eggs everywhere. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50894	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Small Introduction~

I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look forward to meeting everyone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50895	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Hello Sue, Perhaps some large pore filter material for pond filtration attached to the outside of the box? On a much smaller scale I use sponge filters on the intakes of many of my tanks to keep fry from getting sucked into filters. It also adds an extra layer of mechanical and biological filtration to the system. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: suemfrancis <peterelectrician@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:50 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump Hi I have had a 6,000 - 7,000 litre pond up and running since last August - for mainly goldfish. I purchased a new filter and pump last autumn which cleared the water nicely and then I packed it up for winter (not recommended to operate under 10degC). A few weeks ago I set it up again and to my horror today found 3 adult newts (dead)stuck half in and half out of the slits in pump (Oase pump). On googling this problem it seems many others have this same problem with not only newts, but tadpoles and small fish getting sucked into pumps. I have found a few suggestions (nylon tights around the pump but some say the claws of the newts get stuck in the mesh). For a short term solution I have a laundry bag that lets water in/out used to stop dog hair messing up the washing machine which I have zipped around it, but as there are no visable holes I would imagine that any dirt would not be able to get through to the filter? although the water is flowing freely, so the UV light will still be functioning. Has anyone else any better suggestion??? Many thanks Sue Francis

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50896	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Heard  Panty Hose can be used. --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 8:25 PM   Hello Sue, Perhaps some large pore filter material for pond filtration attached to the outside of the box? On a much smaller scale I use sponge filters on the intakes of many of my tanks to keep fry from getting sucked into filters. It also adds an extra layer of mechanical and biological filtration to the system. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: suemfrancis <peterelectrician@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:50 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump Hi I have had a 6,000 - 7,000 litre pond up and running since last August - for mainly goldfish. I purchased a new filter and pump last autumn which cleared the water nicely and then I packed it up for winter (not recommended to operate under 10degC). A few weeks ago I set it up again and to my horror today found 3 adult newts (dead)stuck half in and half out of the slits in pump (Oase pump). On googling this problem it seems many others have this same problem with not only newts, but tadpoles and small fish getting sucked into pumps. I have found a few suggestions (nylon tights around the pump but some say the claws of the newts get stuck in the mesh). For a short term solution I have a laundry bag that lets water in/out used to stop dog hair messing up the washing machine which I have zipped around it, but as there are no visable holes I would imagine that any dirt would not be able to get through to the filter? although the water is flowing freely, so the UV light will still be functioning. Has anyone else any better suggestion??? Many thanks Sue Francis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50897	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

If you are intent to keep the goldfish, then get a 150 gallon tank to keep them all together, or meet them out with on in the 40, two in the 55, and two in the 75. Each goldfish needs approximately 30 gallons of water for good health and proper growth. If you are not going to keep the goldfish, re-home them ASAP. I cannot tell you which fish you should get. You need to do your homework and decide on the fish that interest you. I'm sure everyone here would like to lobby for their favorites to "help" you decide. They may not be the fish for you. My interests have changed over the years, and I have had my share of problems. One story some of my "friends" like to tell is how I could not breed gardneri, a killifish that has a reputation of a good starter fish and easy breeder to get someone interested in killifish. I had had, up until that time, success in breeding many fish of varying difficulty levels, but could not get the gardneri to breed to save my life. I finally gave up on them. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jamie arthur Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:05 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look forward to meeting everyone.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50898	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Hi Sue, What model is your Oase pump? John*<o)))<* On 3 April 2011 01:28, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > Heard� Panty Hose can be used. > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 8:25 PM > > � > > > Hello Sue, > > Perhaps some large pore filter material for pond filtration attached to > > the outside of the box? On a much smaller scale I use sponge filters > > on the intakes of many of my tanks to keep fry from getting sucked into > > filters. It also adds an extra layer of mechanical and biological > > filtration to the system. > > -Mike > > -----Original Message----- > > From: suemfrancis <peterelectrician@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, Apr 2, 2011 7:50 am > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump > > Hi > > I have had a 6,000 - 7,000 litre pond up and running since last August > > - for mainly goldfish. I purchased a new filter and pump last autumn > > which cleared the water nicely and then I packed it up for winter (not > > recommended to operate under 10degC). > > A few weeks ago I set it up again and to my horror today found 3 adult > > newts (dead)stuck half in and half out of the slits in pump (Oase pump). > > On googling this problem it seems many others have this same problem > > with not only newts, but tadpoles and small fish getting sucked into > > pumps. I have found a few suggestions (nylon tights around the pump > > but some say the claws of the newts get stuck in the mesh). > > For a short term solution I have a laundry bag that lets water in/out > > used to stop dog hair messing up the washing machine which I have > > zipped around it, but as there are no visable holes I would imagine > > that any dirt would not be able to get through to the filter? although > > the water is flowing freely, so the UV light will still be functioning. > > Has anyone else any better suggestion??? > > Many thanks > > Sue Francis > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50899	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

Hi Jamie, Your Goldfish would benefit greatly from your empty 75 gallon, 5 Goldies in a 20 gallon is a lot of work for you just maintaining a reasonable water quality with all the water changes. Are they streamlined or fancy types & how big/old are they? John. On 2 April 2011 20:05, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on > as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 > sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the > hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. > Look forward to meeting everyone. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50900	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/2/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

I move again next year, more then likely I will rehome them. They are just feeder fish who survived. I have no where to set up a 75.  They are measuring about  a bit over 2 inches. I know they will be to big.  Get  warm enough here I will  post them to see if I can find a pond  for them. --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 10:04 PM   If you are intent to keep the goldfish, then get a 150 gallon tank to keep them all together, or meet them out with on in the 40, two in the 55, and two in the 75. Each goldfish needs approximately 30 gallons of water for good health and proper growth. If you are not going to keep the goldfish, re-home them ASAP. I cannot tell you which fish you should get. You need to do your homework and decide on the fish that interest you. I'm sure everyone here would like to lobby for their favorites to "help" you decide. They may not be the fish for you. My interests have changed over the years, and I have had my share of problems. One story some of my "friends" like to tell is how I could not breed gardneri, a killifish that has a reputation of a good starter fish and easy breeder to get someone interested in killifish. I had had, up until that time, success in breeding many fish of varying difficulty levels, but could not get the gardneri to breed to save my life. I finally gave up on them. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jamie arthur Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:05 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look forward to meeting everyone. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50901	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

I wonder if there's a way you can keep the goldfish in the 75 and keep one of the others, like the 55 as a refugium, heavily planted tank to help filter the water for the goldfish and keep it healthy. You could look at saltwater setups to see how they do their refugiums as far as pumps, etc, as it's a pretty common method of keeping healthy water in saltwater setups! Also, if you have houseplants, water them with the water you've squeezed from the filter sponges (you have them, right, to catch all the solids?) - my plants have never looked so good! Messy fish that make lots of dirty water can be a real blessing to plant enthusiasts! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look forward to meeting everyone. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50902	From: destructokitty	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks

I saw some captive bred roseline sharks at my LFS. Beautiful fish. I am wondering if anyone has any personal experience with these fish. I am thinking of adding a few to my 45 gallon tall (2ft tall x 3ft wide x 1 ft deep) planted tank with harlequin rasboras,clown barbs, and a dojo loach. They are on the pricey side so I want to make sure they would do well in my tank before considering purchase. Water is 76 degrees, med-hard, neutral ph. Tank has been set up for 1 year. Thanks, Jenny

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50903	From: suemfrancis	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Hi John It is an FP2500 which was recommended for the filtration unit I have. Regarding the panyhose - I have seen this suggestion, but I think it works well with tadpoles and small fish but someone said the little nails on the newts gets caught up in the mesh and they are unable to escape! identally I ran a much smaller rated pump years ago which only handled 1,000 litres (still in working order) and never had this problem but the construction is completely different and the pump surround has much finer holes, so I need to investigate if this type is available for a larger volume of water. Sue --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Sue, > > What model is your Oase pump? > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 April 2011 01:28, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Heard Panty Hose can be used. > > > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > > From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 8:25 PM > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50904	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

We've kept the feeder fish in plastic tubs outdoors. In fact, we put two out last week, then the temps dropped to freezing every night so there was ice on the water in the mornings. They're doing fine. They stay a lot healthier outdoors than inside. Still, you couldn't keep more than 3 of them in one of those 15 gallon tubs, but you could get two tubs for all of your fish to live outdoors. They'd probably appreciate some shade, so you could plant a water lily or get some floating plants in there for them. Our "water gardens" looked really nice last summer and the fish thrived, even during a heat wave that got the water temp. over 90. This year I'm going to try putting a board across the top for shade for the fish but then putting a potted plant on the board with string going down into the water so it can wick up and keep the plant watered. I've done this indoors and it works great but never tried it outdoors. It may be a great way to grow spinach, lettuce, carrots, etc. that benefit from a lot of moisture to get big and sweet. Disregard my previous post, I wrote it before I saw your reply. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > I move again next year, more then likely I will rehome them. They are just feeder fish who survived. I have no where to set up a 75.  They are measuring about  a bit over 2 inches. I know they will be to big.  Get  warm enough here I will  post them to see if I can find a pond  for them. > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 10:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > If you are intent to keep the goldfish, then get a 150 gallon tank to keep > > them all together, or meet them out with on in the 40, two in the 55, and > > two in the 75. Each goldfish needs approximately 30 gallons of water for > > good health and proper growth. If you are not going to keep the goldfish, > > re-home them ASAP. > > > > I cannot tell you which fish you should get. You need to do your homework > > and decide on the fish that interest you. I'm sure everyone here would like > > to lobby for their favorites to "help" you decide. They may not be the fish > > for you. My interests have changed over the years, and I have had my share > > of problems. One story some of my "friends" like to tell is how I could not > > breed gardneri, a killifish that has a reputation of a good starter fish and > > easy breeder to get someone interested in killifish. I had had, up until > > that time, success in breeding many fish of varying difficulty levels, but > > could not get the gardneri to breed to save my life. I finally gave up on > > them. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jamie arthur > > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:05 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ > > > > I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as > > a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin > > empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby > > took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look > > forward to meeting everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50905	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

I have often thought of saltwater setups, simply having damsels.  The 75 was bought, and intended to go overseas. I never went, but had gotten rid of all that I could use cause of.  The top was broke,  came with a teeny 10 gal light.... lol.  Apt to small to bring in here.  --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 8:25 AM   I wonder if there's a way you can keep the goldfish in the 75 and keep one of the others, like the 55 as a refugium, heavily planted tank to help filter the water for the goldfish and keep it healthy. You could look at saltwater setups to see how they do their refugiums as far as pumps, etc, as it's a pretty common method of keeping healthy water in saltwater setups! Also, if you have houseplants, water them with the water you've squeezed from the filter sponges (you have them, right, to catch all the solids?) - my plants have never looked so good! Messy fish that make lots of dirty water can be a real blessing to plant enthusiasts! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look forward to meeting everyone. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50906	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure neighborhood kitties would enjoy.  I have a plug on my apt porch, enclosed railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them til summer out there til winter here.   Do you use any gravel  in the bottom, decor?? plants?  I do have a 75 gal screen top. --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 12:10 PM   We've kept the feeder fish in plastic tubs outdoors. In fact, we put two out last week, then the temps dropped to freezing every night so there was ice on the water in the mornings. They're doing fine. They stay a lot healthier outdoors than inside. Still, you couldn't keep more than 3 of them in one of those 15 gallon tubs, but you could get two tubs for all of your fish to live outdoors. They'd probably appreciate some shade, so you could plant a water lily or get some floating plants in there for them. Our "water gardens" looked really nice last summer and the fish thrived, even during a heat wave that got the water temp. over 90. This year I'm going to try putting a board across the top for shade for the fish but then putting a potted plant on the board with string going down into the water so it can wick up and keep the plant watered. I've done this indoors and it works great but never tried it outdoors. It may be a great way to grow spinach, lettuce, carrots, etc. that benefit from a lot of moisture to get big and sweet. Disregard my previous post, I wrote it before I saw your reply. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > I move again next year, more then likely I will rehome them. They are just feeder fish who survived. I have no where to set up a 75.  They are measuring about  a bit over 2 inches. I know they will be to big.  Get  warm enough here I will  post them to see if I can find a pond  for them. > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 10:04 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > If you are intent to keep the goldfish, then get a 150 gallon tank to keep > > them all together, or meet them out with on in the 40, two in the 55, and > > two in the 75. Each goldfish needs approximately 30 gallons of water for > > good health and proper growth. If you are not going to keep the goldfish, > > re-home them ASAP. > > > > I cannot tell you which fish you should get. You need to do your homework > > and decide on the fish that interest you. I'm sure everyone here would like > > to lobby for their favorites to "help" you decide. They may not be the fish > > for you. My interests have changed over the years, and I have had my share > > of problems. One story some of my "friends" like to tell is how I could not > > breed gardneri, a killifish that has a reputation of a good starter fish and > > easy breeder to get someone interested in killifish. I had had, up until > > that time, success in breeding many fish of varying difficulty levels, but > > could not get the gardneri to breed to save my life. I finally gave up on > > them. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jamie arthur > > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2011 3:05 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Small Introduction~ > > > > I keep a 20 gal with 5 dirty ol goldfish I like. Unsure what to settle on as > > a fish choice, so I kept them for now. I have kept 55, 40, and 20. 75 sittin > > empty with pondering ideas to come. I am slowly getting back into the hobby > > took a few years breaks with moves. We are military and shuffle a lot. Look > > forward to meeting everyone. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50907	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice

I've decided to restart my 20 gallon tank again. And I just bought some new gravel substrate. I know I am going to need to cycle it some before I start introducing some fish to it. Any recomendations? Its probably going to end up being a Cichlid tank with some Cory catfish, but not until I'm sure its safe to introduce fish. I don't want to make any costly mistakes. thanks all -Gail Salt lake city, UT

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50908	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice

Stay away from African Rift Lake cichlids with the cories. Rams maybe? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gailsugarpants Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 3:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Starting up the ol tank again - any advice I've decided to restart my 20 gallon tank again. And I just bought some new gravel substrate. I know I am going to need to cycle it some before I start introducing some fish to it. Any recomendations? Its probably going to end up being a Cichlid tank with some Cory catfish, but not until I'm sure its safe to introduce fish. I don't want to make any costly mistakes. thanks all -Gail Salt lake city, UT [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50909	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the input though. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50910	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Thanks! I definitely plan on visiting lots of garage sales this summer. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > Don't know where you live, but if there are ever > Garage Sales in your area, they are great places > to pick up odds and ends (except used heaters) at > radically cheap prices. �'s on the $. Look > around, News Papers do hold some news. > > > >Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have > >names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now > >breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully > >running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of > >which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get > >my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > >need all the accessories, filter & heater > >especially. So please if anyone is looking to > >sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > -- > }}<{{{�> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{�> }}<{{{�> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50911	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

I did mine low tech - no pump or anything just a tub of water. I added some of the gravel and decor from my indoor tank for the denitrifying bacteria to jump start the cycling of the tub. And we started out with lotus but they didn't hold up to the kids playing in the water very well, so later I added duckweed. Even with the plants and gravel, I usually let it sit empty for a week or so to let the water age. Last summmer we had 3 tubs outdoors - one had two feeder goldfish and a female betta (who got unbelievably FAT), another had some tadpoles and minnows we got out of a vending machine (they kept dying but they HAD been living in a vending machine! But by the end of summer we had 3 big ones that actually spawned in there a few times - then ate their eggs or fry). The other had feeder guppy females and some fancy guppy males. One fancy guppy had camallanus worms and infected all my tanks, so I don't think we'll buy guppies again, or at least not mix them with anything else. We put some ghost shrimp out there to see if they'd breed - they may have but then we added fish that would have eaten their babies, but we were able to recover the shrimp at the end of the summer and they seemed pretty healthy. A few snails multiplied a lot, and we found a few new snails at the end of summer when we brought the fish and plants in, including some cool albino ramshorns that were pink/orange. We also had golden clams out there and they thrived. Once a cat falls in a tub of water they leave it alone, and the fish have amazing survival instincts - when you put them out the first thing they want to do is find hiding places and they stay there until they get used to the vibrations, sounds, and motions they see. After that they dart and hide from anything suspicious and you have to re-train them to come up to eat. I doubt you'd have to screen it from cats. Really, it's more fun having some fish that you have to gaze awhile into the water to find, I think. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure neighborhood kitties would enjoy.  I have a plug on my apt porch, enclosed railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them til summer out there til winter here.   Do you use any gravel  in the bottom, decor?? plants?  I do have a 75 gal screen top. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50912	From: haecklers	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice

Do you want it as a planted tank? My cories tore everything up and kept stirring up the substrate resulting in cloudy water just about all the time. I read to keep them in groups of 5 or more so they don't feel lonely and wound up with 7 (freebie extras in an aquabid deal), which were too many for a 20-gallon when they got full-sized. There are dwarf cories that are really cute, you can find them on aquabid fairly often, and sometimes in pet stores. If you want plants, one "costly" mistake is to add the substrate then realize you need to have something else under it to support the needs of the plants. I found that clay kitty litter makes a good substrate under the gravel to support plants, and you can get a bag of it from Wal-Mart for around $3 (you want plain clay kitty litter - no deodorizers or crystals!). --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > I've decided to restart my 20 gallon tank again. And I just bought some new gravel substrate. I know I am going to need to cycle it some before I start introducing some fish to it. > > Any recomendations? Its probably going to end up being a Cichlid tank with some Cory catfish, but not until I'm sure its safe to introduce fish. I don't want to make any costly mistakes. > > thanks all > > -Gail > Salt lake city, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50913	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Starting up the ol tank again - any advice

The best way to do a cycle for your tank without using fish is to use plain ammonia--if you cannot find any plain ammonia at the grocery store, try an ACE Hardware store. Add the ammonia slowly--a few drops at a time, until you read 5 on the test kit scale. You should have your filter and heater running during this process. Measure the ammonia level each day, and when it drops below 5, add enough to come back up to 5. When the ammonia is consistently dropping each day, start measuring your nitrites. When both the ammonia and nitrite are consistently falling to 0 each day, you are ready to add fish. That will occur in 4-8 weeks, just as a normal cycle with fish, but you will not harm any fish, nor will you need to find homes for the fish if they are not wanted as the inhabitants in the tank. You can add your full complement of fish right away also. This is very helpful for fish that are territorial, like many of the cichlids you mention, without having to disrupt the fish each time you add a few more as you slowly build up a load capacity of your cycle. If you want a quick, down and dirty way of creating a cycle, look around to see if you can get Dr. Tim's One and Only product. It contains all the bacteria you need for the cycle, and you can add fish immediately after it has been added. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gailsugarpants Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 3:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Starting up the ol tank again - any advice I've decided to restart my 20 gallon tank again. And I just bought some new gravel substrate. I know I am going to need to cycle it some before I start introducing some fish to it. Any recomendations? Its probably going to end up being a Cichlid tank with some Cory catfish, but not until I'm sure its safe to introduce fish. I don't want to make any costly mistakes. thanks all -Gail Salt lake city, UT

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50914	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

Hi Sue, I am familiar with these types of units but have not come across this problem before in my-admittedly very limited-experience yet I can see how it could happen with the rather large intake holes on the casing. Just to clarify my position-I am first & foremost an aquarium keeper so in no way a pond expert but a Marine Biologist friend of mine who used to look after numerous large Koi ponds in the East Midlands died last year so I have taken on several of his customers out of neccessity because there is no one else around that knows anything about it & the Oase filtration system is the most common I see. Unfortunately I cannot think of anything that has not been suggested here & agree with Steve that you already have a very decent temporary solution with the laundry bag which also sounds newt friendly! I think Steve's idea of the skimmer/overflow outlet is an excellent idea but I think that might be a lot of work to set it up properly. Mike's suggestion of the upgraded aquarium sponge filter is also good. I understand your concern about the welfare of the newts-no one likes to see critters suffering needlessly, the long term solution may well be finding a similar size of pump that has a much finer mesh casing. John*<o)))< * On 3 April 2011 11:45, suemfrancis <peterelectrician@...> wrote: > > > Hi John > > It is an FP2500 which was recommended for the filtration unit I have. > > Regarding the panyhose - I have seen this suggestion, but I think it works > well with tadpoles and small fish but someone said the little nails on the > newts gets caught up in the mesh and they are unable to escape! identally I > ran a much smaller rated pump years ago which only handled 1,000 litres > (still in working order) and never had this problem but the construction is > completely different and the pump surround has much finer holes, so I need > to investigate if this type is available for a larger volume of water. > > Sue > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Sue, > > > > What model is your Oase pump? > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > On 3 April 2011 01:28, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Heard� Panty Hose can be used. > > > > > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > > > > From: Deenerz@... <Deenerz@...> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 8:25 PM > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50915	From: William M	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Advice please newts stuck in pump

I put my sump pump in a kitty litter tray and then put aquarium gravel around the base about 3 to 5 inches high. this prevented fish or anything larger than the gravel from getting to the pump plus it provided a place for the nitrifing bacteria to grow. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "suemfrancis" <peterelectrician@...> wrote: > > Hi John > > It is an FP2500 which was recommended for the filtration unit I have. > > Regarding the panyhose - I have seen this suggestion, but I think it works well with tadpoles and small fish but someone said the little nails on the newts gets caught up in the mesh and they are unable to escape! identally I ran a much smaller rated pump years ago which only handled 1,000 litres (still in working order) and never had this problem but the construction is completely different and the pump surround has much finer holes, so I need to investigate if this type is available for a larger volume of water. > > Sue > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Sue, > > > > What model is your Oase pump? > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > On 3 April 2011 01:28, Jamie arthur <specialname76@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Heard Panty Hose can be used. > > > > > > --- On Sat, 4/2/11, Deenerz@ <Deenerz@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Deenerz@ <Deenerz@> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice please newts stuck in pump > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Saturday, April 2, 2011, 8:25 PM > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50916	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

Just might look into a tub then,  solid color or clear best? --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: From: haecklers <haecklers@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 2:20 PM   I did mine low tech - no pump or anything just a tub of water. I added some of the gravel and decor from my indoor tank for the denitrifying bacteria to jump start the cycling of the tub. And we started out with lotus but they didn't hold up to the kids playing in the water very well, so later I added duckweed. Even with the plants and gravel, I usually let it sit empty for a week or so to let the water age. Last summmer we had 3 tubs outdoors - one had two feeder goldfish and a female betta (who got unbelievably FAT), another had some tadpoles and minnows we got out of a vending machine (they kept dying but they HAD been living in a vending machine! But by the end of summer we had 3 big ones that actually spawned in there a few times - then ate their eggs or fry). The other had feeder guppy females and some fancy guppy males. One fancy guppy had camallanus worms and infected all my tanks, so I don't think we'll buy guppies again, or at least not mix them with anything else. We put some ghost shrimp out there to see if they'd breed - they may have but then we added fish that would have eaten their babies, but we were able to recover the shrimp at the end of the summer and they seemed pretty healthy. A few snails multiplied a lot, and we found a few new snails at the end of summer when we brought the fish and plants in, including some cool albino ramshorns that were pink/orange. We also had golden clams out there and they thrived. Once a cat falls in a tub of water they leave it alone, and the fish have amazing survival instincts - when you put them out the first thing they want to do is find hiding places and they stay there until they get used to the vibrations, sounds, and motions they see. After that they dart and hide from anything suspicious and you have to re-train them to come up to eat. I doubt you'd have to screen it from cats. Really, it's more fun having some fish that you have to gaze awhile into the water to find, I think. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure neighborhood kitties would enjoy.  I have a plug on my apt porch, enclosed railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them til summer out there til winter here.   Do you use any gravel  in the bottom, decor?? plants?  I do have a 75 gal screen top. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50917	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is greater than the SL of the fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the input though. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50918	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

Hi Jamie, I would say solid colour-that way potential predators cannot see what's inside. You can use any kind of mesh or metal grill on the top-simply secure it with a brick, that way the neighbourhood cats & any other predators cannot go fishing but your fish will get all the benefits of being outdoors. Make sure only to use containers that have been used/are suitable to store food/drink. Anything else may contain toxins in the plastic. John*<o)))< * On 4 April 2011 00:17, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > Just might look into a tub then, solid color or clear best? > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 2:20 PM > > > > I did mine low tech - no pump or anything just a tub of water. I added some > of the gravel and decor from my indoor tank for the denitrifying bacteria to > jump start the cycling of the tub. And we started out with lotus but they > didn't hold up to the kids playing in the water very well, so later I added > duckweed. Even with the plants and gravel, I usually let it sit empty for a > week or so to let the water age. > > Last summmer we had 3 tubs outdoors - one had two feeder goldfish and a > female betta (who got unbelievably FAT), another had some tadpoles and > minnows we got out of a vending machine (they kept dying but they HAD been > living in a vending machine! But by the end of summer we had 3 big ones that > actually spawned in there a few times - then ate their eggs or fry). > > The other had feeder guppy females and some fancy guppy males. One fancy > guppy had camallanus worms and infected all my tanks, so I don't think we'll > buy guppies again, or at least not mix them with anything else. > > We put some ghost shrimp out there to see if they'd breed - they may have > but then we added fish that would have eaten their babies, but we were able > to recover the shrimp at the end of the summer and they seemed pretty > healthy. A few snails multiplied a lot, and we found a few new snails at the > end of summer when we brought the fish and plants in, including some cool > albino ramshorns that were pink/orange. We also had golden clams out there > and they thrived. > > Once a cat falls in a tub of water they leave it alone, and the fish have > amazing survival instincts - when you put them out the first thing they want > to do is find hiding places and they stay there until they get used to the > vibrations, sounds, and motions they see. After that they dart and hide from > anything suspicious and you have to re-train them to come up to eat. I doubt > you'd have to screen it from cats. > > Really, it's more fun having some fish that you have to gaze awhile into > the water to find, I think. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> > wrote: > > > > > > You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure > neighborhood kitties would enjoy. I have a plug on my apt porch, enclosed > railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them til > summer out there til winter here.  Do you use any gravel in the bottom, > decor?? plants? I do have a 75 gal screen top. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50919	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 4/3/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

I thought about the ones in walmart. good sized ones  rubbermaid. What kind of  filter, I have a sponge for the  75, that good enough? --- On Sun, 4/3/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:36 PM   Hi Jamie, I would say solid colour-that way potential predators cannot see what's inside. You can use any kind of mesh or metal grill on the top-simply secure it with a brick, that way the neighbourhood cats & any other predators cannot go fishing but your fish will get all the benefits of being outdoors. Make sure only to use containers that have been used/are suitable to store food/drink. Anything else may contain toxins in the plastic. John*<o)))< * On 4 April 2011 00:17, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > Just might look into a tub then, solid color or clear best? > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 2:20 PM > > > > I did mine low tech - no pump or anything just a tub of water. I added some > of the gravel and decor from my indoor tank for the denitrifying bacteria to > jump start the cycling of the tub. And we started out with lotus but they > didn't hold up to the kids playing in the water very well, so later I added > duckweed. Even with the plants and gravel, I usually let it sit empty for a > week or so to let the water age. > > Last summmer we had 3 tubs outdoors - one had two feeder goldfish and a > female betta (who got unbelievably FAT), another had some tadpoles and > minnows we got out of a vending machine (they kept dying but they HAD been > living in a vending machine! But by the end of summer we had 3 big ones that > actually spawned in there a few times - then ate their eggs or fry). > > The other had feeder guppy females and some fancy guppy males. One fancy > guppy had camallanus worms and infected all my tanks, so I don't think we'll > buy guppies again, or at least not mix them with anything else. > > We put some ghost shrimp out there to see if they'd breed - they may have > but then we added fish that would have eaten their babies, but we were able > to recover the shrimp at the end of the summer and they seemed pretty > healthy. A few snails multiplied a lot, and we found a few new snails at the > end of summer when we brought the fish and plants in, including some cool > albino ramshorns that were pink/orange. We also had golden clams out there > and they thrived. > > Once a cat falls in a tub of water they leave it alone, and the fish have > amazing survival instincts - when you put them out the first thing they want > to do is find hiding places and they stay there until they get used to the > vibrations, sounds, and motions they see. After that they dart and hide from > anything suspicious and you have to re-train them to come up to eat. I doubt > you'd have to screen it from cats. > > Really, it's more fun having some fish that you have to gaze awhile into > the water to find, I think. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> > wrote: > > > > > > You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure > neighborhood kitties would enjoy. I have a plug on my apt porch, enclosed > railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them til > summer out there til winter here.  Do you use any gravel in the bottom, > decor?? plants? I do have a 75 gal screen top. > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50920	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for my breeders. Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. Bill --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is greater than the SL of the fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the input though. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50921	From: cobra427lady	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks

Hi, Jenny: I usually just lurk, but saw this post and wanted to respond - I have 6 roseline sharks in my planted 100G hex( 36" deep) - they are growing at a good rate and have been in there about 4 months with a myriad of other fish: elec blue ram, marble angel, 4 iranian red rainbows, pair of apisto agazizzi, a dragon goby, a peacock eel and 6 clown loaches, 3 small corys and 1 ancient red swordtail - all get along beautifully......they are active mostly midrange occupants and were a little tough to get eating the flake/pellets at first, but took fresh food easily - tubifex worms everyday. Their colors are brilliant - they were pricey but I am glad I decided to add them..... I am getting ready to upgrade their tank to a 120-150 gallon as soon as my hubby builds the stand LOL meanwhile I have an Eheim Pro II canister and an Aquaclear 110 helping me to keep things clean .... the tank parameters are always perfect & the tank has been running for over a year and a half. Vacumming is a pain but I do it every two weeks along with a 25% PWC. I will post a couple of pics as soon as I sign off on this reply.....good luck with them if you decide to get them! Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "destructokitty" <destructokitty25@...> wrote: > > I saw some captive bred roseline sharks at my LFS. Beautiful fish. I am wondering if anyone has any personal experience with these fish. I am thinking of adding a few to my 45 gallon tall (2ft tall x 3ft wide x 1 ft deep) planted tank with harlequin rasboras,clown barbs, and a dojo loach. They are on the pricey side so I want to make sure they would do well in my tank before considering purchase. Water is 76 degrees, med-hard, neutral ph. Tank has been set up for 1 year. Thanks, > Jenny >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50922	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Advise on Torpedo Barbs or Roseline Sharks

Puntius denisonii, aka Torpedo barb, aka roseline shark... Great fish but not something I would confine to a 45 gallon tank. These fish grow to average 6 inches long as adult (have seen a number of them get closer to 7 inches, but norm is about 6). The longer the tank the better, as these guys pace a lot. They are somewhat aggressive, best kept with things such as tiger barbs, rosy barbs, etc. who can hold their own against them, they also do quite well with the larger species of rainbow fishes. Small fish are a no no, they will eat small fish if they can catch them, and the smaller the tank the easier the other fish are to catch. Personally, I would not mix them with harlequin rasboras. If they don't damage the harlequins (or eat them depending on size differences) they are sure to stress them out. The denisonii are extremely active. Also, keep the denisonii in groups of at least 3 - 5. They do shoal and without a few of their own kind they tend to stress badly and not live real long (unless they are the only fish in the tank with lots of decor). The more decor in their home tank the healthier they will be, they can be equally as territorial as the red tail and rainbow sharks. The denisonii are also very sensitive to water chemistry fluctuations, so proper acclimation and a stable tank are a must... as is regular maintenance. I hope this answers your question, if not, ask whatever else you'd like to know. I have not attempted to spawn the denisonii but I do have yrs of experience in keeping them. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "destructokitty" <destructokitty25@...> wrote: > > I saw some captive bred roseline sharks at my LFS. Beautiful fish. I am wondering if anyone has any personal experience with these fish. I am thinking of adding a few to my 45 gallon tall (2ft tall x 3ft wide x 1 ft deep) planted tank with harlequin rasboras,clown barbs, and a dojo loach. They are on the pricey side so I want to make sure they would do well in my tank before considering purchase. Water is 76 degrees, med-hard, neutral ph. Tank has been set up for 1 year. Thanks, > Jenny >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50923	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > my breeders. > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > Bill > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > greater than the SL of the fish. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > input though. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50924	From: haecklers	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50925	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Bill, Different species, different requirements. Different sizes, different requirements. A full grown discus would have a hard time fitting in and swimming about a 20 gallon tank. Find yourself a 6" and an 8" plate, put them in a 20, and think discus. Enough room? The 6-8" size would represent full grown discus. One of the reasons for a smaller tank size for breeding cichlids is the need for the young to feed on the slime of the parents for the first few weeks, and close quarters make it easier for the fry to get to the food when hungry. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill 1433 Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 10:31 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for my breeders. Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. Bill --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is greater than the SL of the fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the input though. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50926	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/4/2011
Subject: Re: Small Introduction~

Yes, sponge filters are great for Goldfish-just make sure you have one that is up to the task-add a second filter if in doubt, you really cannot over filter Goldies! John*<o)))< * On 4 April 2011 01:14, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > I thought about the ones in walmart. good sized ones rubbermaid. What kind > of filter, I have a sponge for the 75, that good enough? > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:36 PM > > > > > Hi Jamie, > > I would say solid colour-that way potential predators cannot see what's > > inside. You can use any kind of mesh or metal grill on the top-simply > secure > > it with a brick, that way the neighbourhood cats & any other predators > > cannot go fishing but your fish will get all the benefits of being > outdoors. > > Make sure only to use containers that have been used/are suitable to store > > food/drink. Anything else may contain toxins in the plastic. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 4 April 2011 00:17, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just might look into a tub then, solid color or clear best? > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Small Introduction~ > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 2:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > I did mine low tech - no pump or anything just a tub of water. I added > some > > > of the gravel and decor from my indoor tank for the denitrifying bacteria > to > > > jump start the cycling of the tub. And we started out with lotus but they > > > didn't hold up to the kids playing in the water very well, so later I > added > > > duckweed. Even with the plants and gravel, I usually let it sit empty for > a > > > week or so to let the water age. > > > > > > Last summmer we had 3 tubs outdoors - one had two feeder goldfish and a > > > female betta (who got unbelievably FAT), another had some tadpoles and > > > minnows we got out of a vending machine (they kept dying but they HAD > been > > > living in a vending machine! But by the end of summer we had 3 big ones > that > > > actually spawned in there a few times - then ate their eggs or fry). > > > > > > The other had feeder guppy females and some fancy guppy males. One fancy > > > guppy had camallanus worms and infected all my tanks, so I don't think > we'll > > > buy guppies again, or at least not mix them with anything else. > > > > > > We put some ghost shrimp out there to see if they'd breed - they may have > > > but then we added fish that would have eaten their babies, but we were > able > > > to recover the shrimp at the end of the summer and they seemed pretty > > > healthy. A few snails multiplied a lot, and we found a few new snails at > the > > > end of summer when we brought the fish and plants in, including some cool > > > albino ramshorns that were pink/orange. We also had golden clams out > there > > > and they thrived. > > > > > > Once a cat falls in a tub of water they leave it alone, and the fish have > > > amazing survival instincts - when you put them out the first thing they > want > > > to do is find hiding places and they stay there until they get used to > the > > > vibrations, sounds, and motions they see. After that they dart and hide > from > > > anything suspicious and you have to re-train them to come up to eat. I > doubt > > > you'd have to screen it from cats. > > > > > > Really, it's more fun having some fish that you have to gaze awhile into > > > the water to find, I think. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know I can do that, set up a large tub outside, I am sure > > > neighborhood kitties would enjoy. I have a plug on my apt porch, > enclosed > > > > railing. That is such a great idea ty, I just might be able to keep them > til > > > summer out there til winter here.  Do you use any gravel in the > bottom, > > > decor?? plants? I do have a 75 gal screen top. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50927	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Live fish keychains

I couldn't get the link to post, so here's a whole story from Yahoo news - Latest Fad in China: Keychains Containing Live Turtles and Fish Time.com By ERICA HO Erica Ho – Tue Apr 5, 6:00 am ET Live turtles and fish to carry around on your key ring is a cute idea. Not so cute, though, for said turtles and fish. According to Chinese media, the hottest new fad in China involves selling small live-animal key chains. The little turtles and fishes are sealed up in airtight plastic key rings, and sold as trinkets. So how do you feed an animal in an airtight container? The answer: You don't. Vendors reportedly spew off some hodge podge about the water being nutrient rich, but it's not true. The animals, if they're lucky, get to live for a few days. Unfortunately, the whole shebang is legal. It's sad but true - animal cruelty laws barely exist in China. It was only just recently that the country banned animal circuses, which was a fairly unusual step. Zoos would often make animals perform unimaginable tricks, while dishing up their flesh as exotic entrees at the zoo restaurant.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50928	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Re: Live fish keychains

That's just terrible. I'd like to see these people sealed up in a crate with no food/water and see how they feel about selling these keychains then! Amber On 4/5/2011 7:28 AM, diana_brooksnj wrote: > > I couldn't get the link to post, so here's a whole story from Yahoo > news - > > Latest Fad in China: Keychains Containing Live Turtles and Fish > Time.com > > By ERICA HO Erica Ho – Tue Apr 5, 6:00 am ET > > Live turtles and fish to carry around on your key ring is a cute idea. > Not so cute, though, for said turtles and fish. > > According to Chinese media, the hottest new fad in China involves > selling small live-animal key chains. The little turtles and fishes > are sealed up in airtight plastic key rings, and sold as trinkets. > > So how do you feed an animal in an airtight container? The answer: You > don't. Vendors reportedly spew off some hodge podge about the water > being nutrient rich, but it's not true. The animals, if they're lucky, > get to live for a few days. Unfortunately, the whole shebang is legal. > > It's sad but true - animal cruelty laws barely exist in China. It was > only just recently that the country banned animal circuses, which was > a fairly unusual step. Zoos would often make animals perform > unimaginable tricks, while dishing up their flesh as exotic entrees at > the zoo restaurant. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50929	From: Deb	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Marineland heaters

Hi All: just wanted to tell you Marineland has had some problems with their heaters. A few people have had them explod and break their aquariums. Anyways, I had three that were defective and sent them back. Two had the original boxes and receipts with them; one didn't. they just called and are sending me a full refund for the two I had receipts for and the one that didn't, they are sending me $25 for it. Was worth sending back!! Deborah

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50930	From: Jessica	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Tank Mates

Hello! I've heard of people placing female guppies inside a tank with bettas with little harm. Am I right to suppose this idea is because they have small/little tail fins? And yet, I've also heard glofish can go with some bettas, as well. So is it coloring or finning that triggers a betta's aggressiveness? I have such a calm betta who doesn't bother his current tankmates, but I was wondering when I went into Petsmart this weekend, where lyretail male guppies would fall into in these categories? The ones I saw were brown/black with only the two streaks of blue that were their tails. Has anyone had any experience putting these with bettas, and if not, what do you think? Thanks, J

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50931	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/5/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Mates

My betta's mostly only fight with similar colored/shaped fish (such as Gourami's). My female betta's never bother my guppies/platty's/or catfish/loaches/pleco's. But they do chase the flame paradise gourami, but he chases them too, so I suppose that's fair ;) So far no nipped fins that I can see, so I think they just chase each other away from their territory. Betta's will love to eat your guppy fry though, so if you plan to breed your guppy's adding a betta would be a bad idea. Danio's (glofish) may nip a male betta's fins, and a large school of them often get more aggressive (safety in numbers, makes them feel more secure and aggressive). I have my male betta's in their own tanks, one of them is a plakat (bred for aggressiveness) and he seems to have killed his dwarf frog tank-mate. So some male betta's are just naturally aggressive as well. Your betta may nip the long fins of the males, and may not. Amber On 4/5/2011 4:19 PM, Jessica wrote: > > Hello! > I've heard of people placing female guppies inside a tank with bettas > with little harm. Am I right to suppose this idea is because they have > small/little tail fins? And yet, I've also heard glofish can go with > some bettas, as well. So is it coloring or finning that triggers a > betta's aggressiveness? I have such a calm betta who doesn't bother > his current tankmates, but I was wondering when I went into Petsmart > this weekend, where lyretail male guppies would fall into in these > categories? The ones I saw were brown/black with only the two streaks > of blue that were their tails. Has anyone had any experience putting > these with bettas, and if not, what do you think? > Thanks, > J > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50932	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Mates

In my experience, these fish are more intelligent than we give them credit for - their aggression is really directed only at other bettas and unless the other fish reacts like a betta would - flaring its fins and doing some sort of sideways shimmy the betta will quickly lose interest and ignore the fish. The first day when the new fish is introduced is probably the riskiest time, because your betta has never encountered that fish before and doesn't know what it is, but even floating it in the bag for 30 min. or so should allow the betta to check it out and determine that the fish is not a betta. Glofish are a kind of danio, tho, and they can be nippy with other fish, especially if you don't keep them in groups of at least 5 or 6. We have a single danio fry in with some pearl gourami fry and the little booger is always chasing and biting our gouramis. So it may damage the fins on your betta. Despite them being called "fighting fish" they're real wusses with most other fish - the unnaturally long fins create a lot of drag and exhaust the fish if it has to swim much, plus their natural temperament is that they are somewhat lazy fish who like to spend a good part of the day just lounging - a fish always swimming by and nipping at him could be pretty stressful. Even guppies harass bettas. I have a female betta in with some guppies and the large guppy female is always fighting with my betta (over food, mostly) and the female betta always has a torn fin somewhere from the guppy - sometimes it takes chunks out of her fins and it appears painful because she won't swim much for several hours after that happens. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" <jessica_ahl@...> wrote: > > Hello! > I've heard of people placing female guppies inside a tank with bettas with little harm. Am I right to suppose this idea is because they have small/little tail fins? And yet, I've also heard glofish can go with some bettas, as well. So is it coloring or finning that triggers a betta's aggressiveness? I have such a calm betta who doesn't bother his current tankmates, but I was wondering when I went into Petsmart this weekend, where lyretail male guppies would fall into in these categories? The ones I saw were brown/black with only the two streaks of blue that were their tails. Has anyone had any experience putting these with bettas, and if not, what do you think? > Thanks, > J >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50933	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > my breeders. > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > input though. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50934	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. Becky --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50935	From: alijo79	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: freshwater angelfish

I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50936	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Sounds like a plan to me.  Going to set up a sponge filter in the fry tank?  Plently of PWC's and keeping the tank clean, sounds like you're good to go!   Enjoy,   Bill --- On Wed, 4/6/11, jayandbecky46290 <jorflet@...> wrote: From: jayandbecky46290 <jorflet@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 11:47 AM Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'.  Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank.  I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well.  40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair.  > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate.  Angel fry grow quite rapidly.  From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank.  Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank.  Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space.  > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > Rearing or spawning tanks.  One comment made mention that a > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�,  that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > my breeders. > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn.  But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct.  Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding  within his breeding pairs. > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > input though. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย  > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50937	From: Ray	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Becky, I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > Becky > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50938	From: alijo79	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Live fish keychains

That's disturbing, what so people think?! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > > I couldn't get the link to post, so here's a whole story from Yahoo news - > > Latest Fad in China: Keychains Containing Live Turtles and Fish > Time.com > > > By ERICA HO Erica Ho – Tue Apr 5, 6:00 am ET > > Live turtles and fish to carry around on your key ring is a cute idea. Not so cute, though, for said turtles and fish. > > According to Chinese media, the hottest new fad in China involves selling small live-animal key chains. The little turtles and fishes are sealed up in airtight plastic key rings, and sold as trinkets. > > So how do you feed an animal in an airtight container? The answer: You don't. Vendors reportedly spew off some hodge podge about the water being nutrient rich, but it's not true. The animals, if they're lucky, get to live for a few days. Unfortunately, the whole shebang is legal. > > It's sad but true - animal cruelty laws barely exist in China. It was only just recently that the country banned animal circuses, which was a fairly unusual step. Zoos would often make animals perform unimaginable tricks, while dishing up their flesh as exotic entrees at the zoo restaurant. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50939	From: Bill	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

The best advice I can give ya: These are optimum conditions, they will adapt but ....... DO NOT go to a big box store for your angels. Try and have your water soft less than 6 degrees of hardness. They will survive in harder water just not as energetic. Having your water hardness below 5 degrees assists in successful egg viability. Try and have your ph below 7.0 Try and buy at least 25 cent sized fish. Keep em warm.. high 70's to mid 80's. The current from your filter should not be too strong. If you breed them, it is probably best to go with a sponge filter to prevent the fry from being sucked up the intakes of typical filters. To get a pair, buy at least 5 (94% chance of having one off-sexed fish) ________________________________ From: alijo79 <alissajordan79@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 2:02:02 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] freshwater angelfish I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50940	From: Ray	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Becky, Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not the 100 fry you are thinking of. It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50941	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

If you end up with a mated pair of Angelfish they will chase and bully all the other fish when they go into spawning mode. I moved my pair into their own 55 gallon tank because they were chasing all the fish to one side of the 125 gallon tank and keeping them there. They can be very aggressive during spawning, even with each other. My female often bullies the male around when she's laying eggs. Amber On 4/6/2011 10:02 AM, alijo79 wrote: > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried > angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I > don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a > cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50942	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them having any fry, but they seem happy together. Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL Amber On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > Becky, > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > <jorflet@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > Wattley states > > > > in his column “Ask Jack�, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > 55-gallon tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > pair. To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > and the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > you have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > size, then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > in mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > the anal is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > breeding pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > fry in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > lots of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > Thanks for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > small to breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > started with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > fully running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > breed, but first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > need all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50943	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

How about taking the eggs out BEFORE they try to eat them?   Same story here,   Bill --- On Wed, 4/6/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 8:55 PM My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them having any fry, but they seem happy together. Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL Amber On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > Becky, > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > <jorflet@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > Wattley states > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > 55-gallon tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > pair. To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > and the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > you have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > size, then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > in mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > the anal is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > breeding pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > fry in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > lots of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > Thanks for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > small to breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > started with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > fully running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > breed, but first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > need all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > > ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> > ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50944	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Ray, Thanks for all the info. I got my fish from Joe Gargas, and he had published a few articles about the bad effects of adding salt to aquarium water so out of respect to him (he gave me a nice deal on these very nice fish) I wasn't going to add salt. To see some of his articles against the use of salt (and some by other folks too) you can look here: http://tbas1.com/TBASpages/salt.html We did recently lose a betta to columnaris (it came out of the blue, we do a lot more water changes on the bettas than the rest of the fish so the water was nearly perfect), and then another one was exposed and got a discolored patch on his back. Since he wasn't acting very sick besides that I chose to use salt in his water to see if it cleared up before using meds. He's doing much better now. It appears there is some value in using salt to clear the more slow-progressing forms of columnaris.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50945	From: Bill	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay married!...LOL. .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them having any fry, but they seem happy together. Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL Amber On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > Becky, > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > <jorflet@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > Wattley states > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > 55-gallon tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > pair. To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > and the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > you have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > size, then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > in mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > the anal is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > breeding pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > fry in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > lots of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > Thanks for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > small to breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > started with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > fully running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > breed, but first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > need all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > > ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> > ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50946	From: wendie o	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Neon question

I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a bunch of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by chasing them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and then finally dies. These are small sized neons. Any ideas??? Wendie

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50947	From: Michelle Wilson	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Nice one Bill! That made my night! On Apr 6, 2011, at 8:07 PM, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay married!...LOL. > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > Amber > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > <jorflet@...> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > Wattley states > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > > in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > > fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > > ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ><((((ยบ> > > ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((><ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ><((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((><ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50948	From: haecklers	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Yeah, separate them! LOL! Maybe you could siphon out just a handful of fry and save them and let the parents eat the rest. It's what I've been doing with my pearl gourami. 200 fry is a burden but 15 or so is fun. I'm never sure why people want to save every last fry. You need too much tank space for that, and then what do you do with all those fish? Not that I didn't have to learn that from experience! I wonder if you fed the parents differently if they'd stop eating their fry. Some say eating or rearing fry is genetic, but others say it's water quality and still others say it has to do with whether the parents are hungry or maybe lacking something in their diets. - R --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50949	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Aint that the truth. LOL. Amber On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > married!...LOL. > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > Amber > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > <jorflet@...> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > Wattley states > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > > in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > > fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > > ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ>< ((((ยบ> > > ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< ยธ.ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > .ยทยดยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยดยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ>< ((((บ> ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..><((((บ> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <บ((((><.ทดฏ`ท.ธธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((>< ธ.ทดฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทดฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทดฏ`ท.ธธ. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50950	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/6/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

unfortunately, its pretty normal for a school of tetras to sort of weed out the weaker fish, Maybe you just have too many males? male fish are most aggressive when trying to court, or impregnate female fishes. You may only have a female or 2 and the males are trying to lessen the pack in order to get a chance with her. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@...> wrote: > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a bunch of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by chasing them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and then finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > Any ideas??? > > Wendie >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50951	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Becky, > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > Ray > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > Becky > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50952	From: jayandbecky46290	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 inches is bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches not including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 fry because that is how many, on average, survive. OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a larger aquarium will be required. pairs which are intended to raise and care for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be quite small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > Amber > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > married!...LOL. > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > Wattley states > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > > pair. To > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > > and the > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > > you have > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > > size, then you > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > > > in mind > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > > the anal is > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > > breeding pair > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > > lots of > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > > small to breed > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > > started with > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > > fully running > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > breed, but first > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > > need all the > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > > looking to > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ>< ((((ยบ> > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ>< ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..><((((บ> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((>< ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50953	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Hi Wendie, From their behavior, these three Neons are undoubtedly males. although I've never seen nor ever heard of these Tetras behaving so aggessively -- and I've been keeping fish longer than you have, even spawning this species numerous times. Once behavior like this starts, there's no way to discourage its continuance. I could suggest that you rehome these three individuals or take them back to your fish store and trade them in for others. If that's not an option, depending upon your tank size and your present bioload, you may want to consider adding a small number (5 minimum) of Tiger Barbs which are sure to keep these fish preoccupied in looking out for themselves rather than harrassing their conspecifics < g >. Your water parameters (GH and pH) may be more conducive to their spawning requirements, and if so, this would be a reason why these particular males would be both driving any females so hard and acting aggressively towards other males. To reduce this behavior, if your water is soft and acidic, you could try hardening the water by adding a couple of teaspoons of crushed coral to the filter and slowly increasing the pH slightly, to the low basic range. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@...> wrote: > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a bunch of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by chasing them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and then finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > Any ideas??? > > Wendie >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50954	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi Amber, One way to discourage breeding behavior in Angels is to lower their temperature, if you've really given up on having Angelfish fry, even though a well conditioned pair will still occasionally spawn even at 72 o if they are intent on doing so. It's too bad that you've given up on them though, especially when you have a whole group of members here who could give you advice on this problem if you only asked about it. I can't recall your ever mentioning about your even having Angels though, but if you have mentioned them, you haven't ask anything about the problem of their spawning and eating the eggs. This behavior of them eating their eggs is nothing new in the aquarium world, and is mainly due to diminishing parental instinct in their breeding sequence. As each Angelfish will behave differently, and as each pair of Angels will behave differently within the confines of Angelfish behavior, it's impossible to say that this act can be "cured," but there are methods to reduce this tendancy. The control of lighting here, when these problem fish are in their spawning sequence, is extremely important in keeping this behavior at an absolute minimum or eliminating it entirely. Then too, while many pairs will settle down and raise their spawns after only a few tries, for others it may take as many as a dozen (or more) tries before they succeed in raising fry. Obviously, if the eggs are removed to hatch in a separate tank, to be raised by the hobbyist, there's no chance for the parents to eat the eggs -- unless they do so at the same time as they're laying them, which is not impossible. As it appears you wanted to enjoy the experience of having the parents raise them, again for such problem fish, the tank lighting preferably should not be on while they're spawning. If it is, turn the aquarium light out as soon afterwards as you can, when you see them fanning the eggs, although now with the room light on so that the lighting change is not that major. To be alerted as to their imminent spawning, the female will drop her breeding tube at least two days (possibly three) before spawning, while the male will drop his only the day before spawning. When you see both their breeding tubes, you know that spawning is not too far away. Keep the aquarium light out during the duration of the eggs hatching and the fry becoming free-swimming -- BUT -- keep a night light on in the room at all times after dark, so that the parents are never left in darkness. When turning the tank light on again when the fry become free-swimming, be sure to have the room lights on full so that there is no sudden increase in illumination of the aquarium just from the tank light. Problem pairs may still eat their free-swimming fry at any time during the following several days after they free=swim, so be alerted to this possibility. Sudden changes of lighting can trigger this in less instinctive individuals, so again, when turning the tank light out at night (after the fry are free-swimming) -- always first have the room light on. Then, turn a night light on before turning the room light out. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > Amber > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > Wattley states > > > > > in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > > in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > > fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50955	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi R, As Joe (Gargas) states, salt can often have bad effects when used with freshwater fish continually, although it does have its benefits when temporarily needed to help treat certain health issues. Sorry to hear about your losing that one Betta to Columnaris, that can be a nasty disease. I have to assume that you didn't use a large salt solution in treating the other Betta (with the discolored patch) as, in case you weren't aware, in general Bettas do not tolerate very much salt. Yes, salt does have its merits. As for this second Betta, be alert to the possible needs to use a good gram-negative antibiotic with him if you see any advances in this issue. While this Columnaris may appear slow-progressing to you, it can quickly overwhelm a fish if not treated properly. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > Thanks for all the info. I got my fish from Joe Gargas, and he had published a few articles about the bad effects of adding salt to aquarium water so out of respect to him (he gave me a nice deal on these very nice fish) I wasn't going to add salt. To see some of his articles against the use of salt (and some by other folks too) you can look here: http://tbas1.com/TBASpages/salt.html > > We did recently lose a betta to columnaris (it came out of the blue, we do a lot more water changes on the bettas than the rest of the fish so the water was nearly perfect), and then another one was exposed and got a discolored patch on his back. Since he wasn't acting very sick besides that I chose to use salt in his water to see if it cleared up before using meds. He's doing much better now. It appears there is some value in using salt to clear the more slow-progressing forms of columnaris. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50956	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi Becky, Yes, adding a small amount of salt is beneficial for healing a fish when it has suffered an injury, and also for helping treat some diseases. Since I don't know how much of your recommend link that you actually read yourself, I can't say how much of what you read was true, although I did point out several parts that were quite wrong after I read the whole site. Of course, I'm sure most of us are aware that brackish water is no good for Angels, although I understood those fish were healthy again. If their fins were still ragged, the salt could be kept in the tank until this problem was healed up, but otherwise, salt is not in the best interest of any freshwater fish. The teaspoon of salt that you're adding to the whole tank of water is not detrimental, but it's really not needed. This extremely small amount of salt you're using may just be why your fish are "happy" and thriving, since they're not being subjected to any higher level of it. The hardness should not go up. nor will it, no matter how much salt you use. Salt (common table salt -- NCl) will not harden the water. I notice you are somehow under the impression that too much salt makes the water hard. I don't know where you received that information (I know I never said it), but that's totally false. Salt will increase the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) though, as being composed partially of a metal (sodium), it will increase the conductivity of the water as it raises the microseimens, adversely affecting the development and hatching of eggs of some species, especially those which have evolved in soft water. As for the salinity level and the production or "removal" of mucus in the gills, my point is that there's no in-between level, as salt will promote the secretion of mucus at any level in freshwater fish -- whether this mucus is on the external portion of the body or in the gills. It's for this very reason that we use one Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons when treating fish for Ich, in addition to it's making it rough for Ich to exist (live). This is not a lot of salt -- and in fact not enough to harm most plants -- yet we use it to promote the secretion of salt by the fish to make conditions more difficult for the Ich to gain a hold in the skin of the fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > > Becky > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50957	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

My female is 2 years old and the male is about 2 1/2 years old, I think. I would rather not remove them and put them in a different tank, I'm just letting them do what they want to do. I was just hoping I could do something like; lower the water temp, etc. That would cause them to stop wanting to lay eggs so often (and then eat them all right away). Mine are very aggressive when in spawning mode (even towards each other), so I was hoping to get them to spawn less often. Amber On 4/6/2011 8:10 PM, jayandbecky46290 wrote: > > Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 inches is > bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. > I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL > freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches not > including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels > reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small > and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I > mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' > in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 > fry because that is how many, on average, survive. > OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... > "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding > condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare > occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in > which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not > to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a larger > aquarium will be required. pairs which are intended to raise and care > for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity > or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I > totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be quite > small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my > fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger > tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. > 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod > > Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. > > Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first > couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my > end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em > up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing > very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > > married!...LOL. > > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't > stunted. > > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one > successful > > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, > which get > > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use > of 20 > > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you > could > > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. > Know, > > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in > the 25 > > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of > properly > > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water > changes. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but > this > > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then > a few > > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking > out my > > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized > than > > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have > a 20 > > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently > have > > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works > well, and > > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > there > > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon > tank. > > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water > changes > > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of > breeding > > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > > Wattley states > > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his > breeding tanks for > > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > regular > > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the > 20-gallon long (30 > > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for > so many > > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe > that the > > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions > would > > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding > within > > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > > > pair. To > > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the > fish > > > > and the > > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > tanks > > > > you have > > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > > > size, then you > > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin > development. Keep > > > > in mind > > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > > > the anal is > > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > > > breeding pair > > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep > about 20 > > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you > need > > > > lots of > > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > > > small to breed > > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > <jorflet@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > > > started with > > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > > > fully running > > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > > breed, but first > > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > > > need all the > > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if > anyone is > > > > looking to > > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ>< > ((((ยบ> > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ. , > .ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > message > > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > subject)" <- > > > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > > > ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ>< > ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"à¸�`ท..><((((บ> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ<บ((((>< > ธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"à¸�`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50958	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Becky, Okay, I understand your point -- that a pair of fully grown Angelfish are very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank; I did not say otherwise, although I did say a 29 gallon would be better -- but then, naturally, the more room we give them the better they prosper. My point is in stating that the "common" (not the Altum) Angelfish are no longer found in the hobby anywhere's near 12" high, which I feel the need to clarify here for the benefit of any members who may think differently as a result of your statement. Please know too, that Angelfish do not reach maturity in 6 months (nor "approx 6 months"). The average, normal, period of time required for Angelfish to mature is 9 months -- with some faster advancing individuals taking as few as 7 1/2 months to mature under optimum conditions and providing it's in their genetic make up to do so. You'll note that Amber's Angels are no more than 7" tall, and they're full grown, although they'll still vary in size from this (but not to 12"). As for your transferring some Angel fry to a 10 gallon tank, you'd be better with a ratio of 28 dime-size juveniles in the 10 gallon tank -- giving you a ratio of 2.8 juvies per gallon. Then, with the remaining 72 juvies in the 25 gallon tank, you'd also have a ratio of 2.8 juvies per gallon. This is still a large bioload in each tank, as I'm sure you can see -- that with a dime being just about 3/4" (not even considering yet that Angels are deep-bodied fish), that you will have 1 1/2 " of fish per gallon -- way over stocked when considering the old 1" per gallon rule which is still usable for most fish up to 3" (but not after that). You will need to do heavy partila water changes at least twice a week if you don't want short stubby fins on these fish -- which can often happen when you crowd them to this extent. I'm just trying to advise you in the right direction here, so that you're able to raise decent looking, saleable Angels when your done. I don't know where you ever got the idea that only 100 Angels survive, on average, out of a spawn. If you read this, then you're being misinformed. While you may lose a few of them, especially some possible weaker ones, most should still survive -- and most will mean a lot of fry. I might include here, so that you know whereof as I speak, that I've been breeding Angels probably for more years than you've been alive, and not than I'm just throwing a figure out there as a guess. I'd like to help you in raising them, if you'd allow. Again, I don't know where you come up with ideas that Angel pairs can be properly maintained indefinitely in 10 gallon -- or SMALLER -- tanks. The minimum size that you go on to cite is more like it, and you should adhere to it. For breeding Angels in smaller tanks, there just no purpose for it when considering they can't comfortably remain in such tanks long-term. If I may quote Braz Walker's narative in full, as cited on page 75 of his book, it goes like this, under "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING" -- "While angelfish which are in breeding condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as ten gallons, or on rare occasions even smaller, THIS IN MY OPINION IS NOT A GOOD SITUATION FOR ANY BUT TEMPORARY HOUSING FOR A BREEDING PAIR. I would suggest a minimum of fifteen gallons in which to house and breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a larger aquarium will be required. Pairs which are intended to raise and care for their own offspring, WHICH STILL HAS TO BE ONE OF THE MOST GLORIOUS AND HEARTWARMING EXPERIENCES IN FISHKEEPING, should have a minimum of twenty five gallon capacity, or larger if possible." You'll please note that I capitalized the text which you left out, to be able to follow it better when compared to what you quoted. You'll also note that he stated housing Angel pairs in 10 gallon tanks was not a good situation! Braz Walker was a one of a kind aquarist, whom I got to know over 40 years ago as a charter member of the American Cichlid Association; Braz was a charter member as well as myself. We corresponded at length, each exchanging ideas and experiences with Angelfish. What you may not know, is that Braz was a paralized, and wrote (typed) using a wooden dowel held between his teeth as he lay reclined in his iron lung, since he couldn't breath for any long stretches on his own. He had a special bracket made for his typewriter to hold it at the end of his iron lung within reach of his mouth, by this tool he used, where he could read and type. This is why I say he was "one of a kind." He was also a member of the Aquatic Researchers of San Antonio aquarium club. I knew Herbie (Axelrod) well too, some years back, although he's hard to reach now days. We've corresponded at length and I used to occasionally drop down to visit him in his office in Neptune, NJ (I'm from Northern NY). He has even sent me congratulatory letters when I've won Aquarium shows with my Angels, which I've framed and hung on my wall. It's something he rarely did for anyone, as he usually never had the time. While Herb had nothing to do with Braz's book as far as the writing of it goes, he did include numerous color photos of various Angelfish when he published it under his TFH Publication company. If you'd like help in raising Angels, just let me know, but if you feel confident enough that you feel you don't need help, I'll understand. BTW, you'll note that Dawn presently has 100 Angelfish fry -- in a 90 GALLON tank! I wonder why. Could it be that she knows that young Angelfish will grow much faster and more uniformly to their full potention and with full finnage when providing them with even much more room than they really need? Besides, making things much easier for her to raise them? There's no question that she'll be raising some beautiful fish. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 inches is bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches not including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 fry because that is how many, on average, survive. > OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... > "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a larger aquarium will be required. Pairs which are intended to raise and care for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be quite small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod > > Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. > > Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > > married!...LOL. > > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which get > > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you could > > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in the 25 > > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of properly > > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water changes. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there > > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > > Wattley states > > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his breeding tanks for > > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular > > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 > > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many > > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the > > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would > > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > > > pair. To > > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > > > and the > > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > > > you have > > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > > > size, then you > > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep > > > > in mind > > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > > > the anal is > > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > > > breeding pair > > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 > > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > > > lots of > > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > > > small to breed > > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > > > started with > > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > > > fully running > > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > > breed, but first > > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > > > need all the > > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > > > looking to > > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ>< ((((ยบ> > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ>< ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..><((((บ> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((>< ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50959	From: Wendie	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Hi Ray, I was thinking of adding something like that to keep their minds busy.. LOL. I looked at the barbs as a matter of fact but they were a bit large and I didn't want to upset my loaches in another tank if they had to be moved. The group leader has a temper... turns almost black when mad. I don't pay much attention to breeding anymore as there is no outlet to get rid of them and I'm too much of a putz to cull them. I ended up with 150 male bettas one time because of that. The plecos I sort of left in a box and ran at the local pet store. They agreed to take a few... my idea of a few was 50 or so. I had one store I traded with but they went out of business eventually. Now if the plecos breed I just let the clown loaches line up in front of the cave and dine. The cory cats used to lay eggs on the glass so that was a learning experience. I would like to get back to breeding angels though. Right now I only have the 3 tanks going and I'll stick to that. I don't have the room to really get back to breeding everything. Thanks Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:45 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question Hi Wendie, From their behavior, these three Neons are undoubtedly males. although I've never seen nor ever heard of these Tetras behaving so aggessively -- and I've been keeping fish longer than you have, even spawning this species numerous times. Once behavior like this starts, there's no way to discourage its continuance. I could suggest that you rehome these three individuals or take them back to your fish store and trade them in for others. If that's not an option, depending upon your tank size and your present bioload, you may want to consider adding a small number (5 minimum) of Tiger Barbs which are sure to keep these fish preoccupied in looking out for themselves rather than harrassing their conspecifics < g >. Your water parameters (GH and pH) may be more conducive to their spawning requirements, and if so, this would be a reason why these particular males would be both driving any females so hard and acting aggressively towards other males. To reduce this behavior, if your water is soft and acidic, you could try hardening the water by adding a couple of teaspoons of crushed coral to the filter and slowly increasing the pH slightly, to the low basic range. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@...> wrote: > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this > problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a bunch > of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, > chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come > across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by chasing > them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it > over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and then > finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > Any ideas??? > > Wendie > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50960	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I've had them for awhile now, and I do remember asking questions about breeding them about a year ago. It was suggested that I move them to their own tank, so I got them their own 55 gallon, and they have been in it since it was cycled over a year ago. Since then they've had several batches of eggs, but they either eat them before they hatch (female gets overly aggressive and eats them), or she waits until they hatch and then eats them. I will keep in mind about the lighting though, that's a good tip, if I ever decide to try to raise fry. I'd much rather have the parents raise them (as I don't want to care for 200-300 fry all at once), as I know less of them would survive if the parents care for them (especially my pair of Angel's LOL). Thanks Ray, Amber On 4/7/2011 5:26 AM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Amber, > > One way to discourage breeding behavior in Angels is to lower their > temperature, if you've really given up on having Angelfish fry, even > though a well conditioned pair will still occasionally spawn even at > 72 o if they are intent on doing so. It's too bad that you've given up > on them though, especially when you have a whole group of members here > who could give you advice on this problem if you only asked about it. > I can't recall your ever mentioning about your even having Angels > though, but if you have mentioned them, you haven't ask anything about > the problem of their spawning and eating the eggs. > > This behavior of them eating their eggs is nothing new in the aquarium > world, and is mainly due to diminishing parental instinct in their > breeding sequence. As each Angelfish will behave differently, and as > each pair of Angels will behave differently within the confines of > Angelfish behavior, it's impossible to say that this act can be > "cured," but there are methods to reduce this tendancy. > > The control of lighting here, when these problem fish are in their > spawning sequence, is extremely important in keeping this behavior at > an absolute minimum or eliminating it entirely. Then too, while many > pairs will settle down and raise their spawns after only a few tries, > for others it may take as many as a dozen (or more) tries before they > succeed in raising fry. > > Obviously, if the eggs are removed to hatch in a separate tank, to be > raised by the hobbyist, there's no chance for the parents to eat the > eggs -- unless they do so at the same time as they're laying them, > which is not impossible. As it appears you wanted to enjoy the > experience of having the parents raise them, again for such problem > fish, the tank lighting preferably should not be on while they're > spawning. If it is, turn the aquarium light out as soon afterwards as > you can, when you see them fanning the eggs, although now with the > room light on so that the lighting change is not that major. To be > alerted as to their imminent spawning, the female will drop her > breeding tube at least two days (possibly three) before spawning, > while the male will drop his only the day before spawning. When you > see both their breeding tubes, you know that spawning is not too far away. > > Keep the aquarium light out during the duration of the eggs hatching > and the fry becoming free-swimming -- BUT -- keep a night light on in > the room at all times after dark, so that the parents are never left > in darkness. When turning the tank light on again when the fry become > free-swimming, be sure to have the room lights on full so that there > is no sudden increase in illumination of the aquarium just from the > tank light. Problem pairs may still eat their free-swimming fry at any > time during the following several days after they free=swim, so be > alerted to this possibility. Sudden changes of lighting can trigger > this in less instinctive individuals, so again, when turning the tank > light out at night (after the fry are free-swimming) -- always first > have the room light on. Then, turn a night light on before turning the > room light out. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't stunted. > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one successful > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, which > get > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use of 20 > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you > could > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. Know, > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in > the 25 > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of > properly > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water > changes. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking > out my > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > there > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of > space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > Wattley states > > > > > > in his column “Ask Jack�, that for his breeding tanks for > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > regular > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long > (30 > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so > many > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that > the > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions > would > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > > pair. To > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish > > > and the > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks > > > you have > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > > size, then you > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. > Keep > > > in mind > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > > the anal is > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > > breeding pair > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep > about 20 > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need > > > lots of > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > > small to breed > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > > started with > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > > fully running > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > breed, but first > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > > need all the > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > > > looking to > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > message > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50961	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Lowering the temperature should help in disuading them from spawning. I wouldn't advise necessarily dropping it to 72 o, when not knowing what else you have in the tank, but 74 o should be enough to stop them for the most part. Not every pair will still spawn at 72 o, so this is worth a try. One other thing to keep in mind, if you can still maintain the water quality properly, reduce the quantity of water being changed at any one time. Larger water changes act as a stimulant for spawning. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > My female is 2 years old and the male is about 2 1/2 years old, I think. > I would rather not remove them and put them in a different tank, I'm > just letting them do what they want to do. I was just hoping I could do > something like; lower the water temp, etc. That would cause them to stop > wanting to lay eggs so often (and then eat them all right away). Mine > are very aggressive when in spawning mode (even towards each other), so > I was hoping to get them to spawn less often. > > Amber > > On 4/6/2011 8:10 PM, jayandbecky46290 wrote: > > > > Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 inches is > > bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. > > I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL > > freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches not > > including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels > > reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small > > and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I > > mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' > > in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 > > fry because that is how many, on average, survive. > > OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... > > "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding > > condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare > > occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in > > which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not > > to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a larger > > aquarium will be required. pairs which are intended to raise and care > > for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity > > or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I > > totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be quite > > small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my > > fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger > > tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. > > 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod > > > > Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. > > > > Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first > > couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my > > end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em > > up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing > > very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > > > married!...LOL. > > > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think they're > > > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their top/bottom > > > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't > > stunted. > > > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one > > successful > > > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up on them > > > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches tall, > > > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember having them > > > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly attain > > > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, > > which get > > > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use > > of 20 > > > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if you > > could > > > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to continue > > > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning tank -- as > > > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. > > Know, > > > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 though, not > > > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in > > the 25 > > > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of > > properly > > > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, even if > > > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water > > changes. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but > > this > > > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then > > a few > > > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking > > out my > > > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized > > than > > > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have > > a 20 > > > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently > > have > > > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works > > well, and > > > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > > there > > > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > > > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon > > tank. > > > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water > > changes > > > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > > of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of > > breeding > > > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > > > Wattley states > > > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his > > breeding tanks for > > > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > > regular > > > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the > > 20-gallon long (30 > > > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for > > > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for > > so many > > > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe > > that the > > > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a > > > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions > > would > > > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding > > within > > > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > > > > pair. To > > > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the > > fish > > > > > and the > > > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > > tanks > > > > > you have > > > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > > > > size, then you > > > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin > > development. Keep > > > > > in mind > > > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > > > > the anal is > > > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > > > > breeding pair > > > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep > > about 20 > > > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you > > need > > > > > lots of > > > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > > > > small to breed > > > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > <jorflet@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > > > > started with > > > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > > > > fully running > > > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > > > breed, but first > > > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > > > > need all the > > > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if > > anyone is > > > > > looking to > > > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ>< > > ((((ยบ> > > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > > message > > > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > > subject)" <- > > > > > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > > > ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ>< > > ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..><((((บ> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((>< > > ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > you can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > where you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50962	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Wendie, As you may know, Tiger Barbs are notorious fin nippers -- which is why I added the "grin," although they'd be sure to keep your trouble makers pre-occupied. But then, they'd also keep every other fish on their toes too. It's said that most all Barbs are fin nippers to some extent, which I've never been able to confirm. Then too, the same is said about Tetras, but again, all's I can agree to on them is that the Buenos Aires Tetra (Hemigrammus caudovittatus) can sometimes be one. Some related species can be bad actors though, like the Blind Cave Fish. You might want to try about 5 (or 7, if you have the room) Cherry Barbs, which are not too large, yet I've seen them as chasers -- usually just among themselves, and not doing any damage as far as I could see, but they may distract the male Neons from continuing their behavior. Zebra Danios are chaser too, and not only among their own kind, but they can inflict damage. As they're top-dwellers, they wouldn't be interacting enough with Neons anyway, them using the bottom third of the tank. From your comment, I gather you must have raised Angels before. As such, you undoubtedly know the space they require to raise a spawn -- AND - they can spawn every eight days when in their prime. You'd probably be best in postponing that idea until you have more tank space. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I was thinking of adding something like that to keep their minds busy.. LOL. > I looked at the barbs as a matter of fact but they were a bit large and I > didn't want to upset my loaches in another tank if they had to be moved. > The group leader has a temper... turns almost black when mad. > > I don't pay much attention to breeding anymore as there is no outlet to get > rid of them and I'm too much of a putz to cull them. I ended up with 150 > male bettas one time because of that. The plecos I sort of left in a box > and ran at the local pet store. They agreed to take a few... my idea of a > few was 50 or so. I had one store I traded with but they went out of > business eventually. Now if the plecos breed I just let the clown loaches > line up in front of the cave and dine. The cory cats used to lay eggs on > the glass so that was a learning experience. > > I would like to get back to breeding angels though. Right now I only have > the 3 tanks going and I'll stick to that. I don't have the room to really > get back to breeding everything. > > Thanks > Wendie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:45 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question > > > Hi Wendie, > > From their behavior, these three Neons are undoubtedly males. although I've > never seen nor ever heard of these Tetras behaving so aggessively -- and > I've been keeping fish longer than you have, even spawning this species > numerous times. Once behavior like this starts, there's no way to > discourage its continuance. I could suggest that you rehome these three > individuals or take them back to your fish store and trade them in for > others. If that's not an option, depending upon your tank size and your > present bioload, you may want to consider adding a small number (5 minimum) > of Tiger Barbs which are sure to keep these fish preoccupied in looking out > for themselves rather than harrassing their conspecifics < g >. > > Your water parameters (GH and pH) may be more conducive to their spawning > requirements, and if so, this would be a reason why these particular males > would be both driving any females so hard and acting aggressively towards > other males. To reduce this behavior, if your water is soft and acidic, you > could try hardening the water by adding a couple of teaspoons of crushed > coral to the filter and slowly increasing the pH slightly, to the low basic > range. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@> wrote: > > > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this > > problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a bunch > > of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, > > chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come > > across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by chasing > > them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it > > over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and then > > finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > > > Any ideas??? > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50963	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@...> wrote: > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50964	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I have to jump in here and agree with Ray about not using salt regularly in a freshwater aquarium. There are still more reasons why this should be avoided. The addition of sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium causes other problems, internal. Freshwater fish's organs are not adapted to handle a constant influx of sodium chloride, which can, over time, build up in their bodies and cause organ damage and function loss and affect their central nervous system. These are not things that happen in a few days or a week, such as is typical when medicating, but long term regular use, will cause internal damage that can be severe and can greatly affect growth and lifespan, not to mention cause suffering as organs gradually shut down and nervous system loses its ability to function normally. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > > Becky > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50965	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Thanks Ray. I have a small group of Platty's in the tank as well, nothing else. They should be fine at lower 70's temps. Right now I think the tank is around 78 (most of my tanks are). I just hate watching the female wack the male around, I feel sorry for him. LOL. Amber On 4/7/2011 8:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > Lowering the temperature should help in disuading them from spawning. > I wouldn't advise necessarily dropping it to 72 o, when not knowing > what else you have in the tank, but 74 o should be enough to stop them > for the most part. Not every pair will still spawn at 72 o, so this is > worth a try. One other thing to keep in mind, if you can still > maintain the water quality properly, reduce the quantity of water > being changed at any one time. Larger water changes act as a stimulant > for spawning. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > My female is 2 years old and the male is about 2 1/2 years old, I think. > > I would rather not remove them and put them in a different tank, I'm > > just letting them do what they want to do. I was just hoping I could do > > something like; lower the water temp, etc. That would cause them to > stop > > wanting to lay eggs so often (and then eat them all right away). Mine > > are very aggressive when in spawning mode (even towards each other), so > > I was hoping to get them to spawn less often. > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/6/2011 8:10 PM, jayandbecky46290 wrote: > > > > > > Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 > inches is > > > bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. > > > I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL > > > freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches > not > > > including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels > > > reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small > > > and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I > > > mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' > > > in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 > > > fry because that is how many, on average, survive. > > > OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... > > > "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding > > > condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare > > > occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in > > > which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not > > > to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a > larger > > > aquarium will be required. pairs which are intended to raise and care > > > for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity > > > or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I > > > totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be > quite > > > small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my > > > fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger > > > tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. > > > 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod > > > > > > Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. > > > > > > Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first > > > couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my > > > end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em > > > up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing > > > very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > > > > married!...LOL. > > > > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think > they're > > > > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their > top/bottom > > > > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't > > > stunted. > > > > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one > > > successful > > > > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up > on them > > > > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > > > > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches > tall, > > > > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember > having them > > > > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly > attain > > > > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, > > > which get > > > > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use > > > of 20 > > > > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if > you > > > could > > > > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to > continue > > > > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning > tank -- as > > > > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. > > > Know, > > > > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 > though, not > > > > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in > > > the 25 > > > > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of > > > properly > > > > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, > even if > > > > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water > > > changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can > grow 12 > > > > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 > gallon tank > > > > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, > but > > > this > > > > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then > > > a few > > > > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also > realize > > > > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 > gallon, > > > > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish > breeding > > > > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 > gallons. > > > > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding > tank'. > > > > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking > > > out my > > > > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space > to house > > > > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime > sized > > > than > > > > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also > have > > > a 20 > > > > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I > currently > > > have > > > > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works > > > well, and > > > > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same > number of > > > > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work > also, > > > > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon > tank... > > > there > > > > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not > more if > > > > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be > realistic to say > > > > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to > disagree > > > > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon > > > tank. > > > > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't > imagine how > > > > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water > > > changes > > > > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > > > of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 > <warrenprint@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of > > > breeding > > > > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > > > > Wattley states > > > > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his > > > breeding tanks for > > > > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > > > regular > > > > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the > > > 20-gallon long (30 > > > > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit > small for > > > > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for > > > so many > > > > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe > > > that the > > > > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering > he has a > > > > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he > mentions > > > would > > > > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another > to keep > > > > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding > > > within > > > > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall > tank for a > > > > > > pair. To > > > > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of > the > > > fish > > > > > > and the > > > > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > > > tanks > > > > > > you have > > > > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond > salable > > > > > > size, then you > > > > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin > > > development. Keep > > > > > > in mind > > > > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the > tip of > > > > > > the anal is > > > > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to > keep a > > > > > > breeding pair > > > > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep > > > about 20 > > > > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when > you > > > need > > > > > > lots of > > > > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that > point. > > > > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a > bit too > > > > > > small to breed > > > > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > <jorflet@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have > names. I > > > > > > started with > > > > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 > gallon > > > > > > fully running > > > > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > > > > breed, but first > > > > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a > tank but I > > > > > > need all the > > > > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if > > > anyone is > > > > > > looking to > > > > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & > ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > > replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ>< > > > > ((((ยบ> > > > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ. , > > > .ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that > is NOT > > > > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > > > message > > > > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > > > subject)" <- > > > > > > > > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > > > > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยà¸�`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on > > > > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > option > > > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group > and post > > > > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ>< > > > ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"à¸�`ท..><((((บ> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ<บ((((>< > > > ธ.ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธ. , > .ทà¸"à¸�`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"à¸�`ท.ธธ. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > Membership" on > > > the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50966	From: Wendie	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Hi Ray, I loved the Angels. I think my one pair was every 8 to 10 days while the others were a bit slower. I had about 3 pairs at one time. I enjoyed watching them parade the little ones around the tank and then "try" to put them to bed at night when they were little. I like to die the first time they gave them a "bath" until I found out it was normal. Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:18 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question Wendie, As you may know, Tiger Barbs are notorious fin nippers -- which is why I added the "grin," although they'd be sure to keep your trouble makers pre-occupied. But then, they'd also keep every other fish on their toes too. It's said that most all Barbs are fin nippers to some extent, which I've never been able to confirm. Then too, the same is said about Tetras, but again, all's I can agree to on them is that the Buenos Aires Tetra (Hemigrammus caudovittatus) can sometimes be one. Some related species can be bad actors though, like the Blind Cave Fish. You might want to try about 5 (or 7, if you have the room) Cherry Barbs, which are not too large, yet I've seen them as chasers -- usually just among themselves, and not doing any damage as far as I could see, but they may distract the male Neons from continuing their behavior. Zebra Danios are chaser too, and not only among their own kind, but they can inflict damage. As they're top-dwellers, they wouldn't be interacting enough with Neons anyway, them using the bottom third of the tank. From your comment, I gather you must have raised Angels before. As such, you undoubtedly know the space they require to raise a spawn -- AND - they can spawn every eight days when in their prime. You'd probably be best in postponing that idea until you have more tank space. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I was thinking of adding something like that to keep their minds busy.. > LOL. > I looked at the barbs as a matter of fact but they were a bit large and I > didn't want to upset my loaches in another tank if they had to be moved. > The group leader has a temper... turns almost black when mad. > > I don't pay much attention to breeding anymore as there is no outlet to > get > rid of them and I'm too much of a putz to cull them. I ended up with 150 > male bettas one time because of that. The plecos I sort of left in a box > and ran at the local pet store. They agreed to take a few... my idea of a > few was 50 or so. I had one store I traded with but they went out of > business eventually. Now if the plecos breed I just let the clown loaches > line up in front of the cave and dine. The cory cats used to lay eggs on > the glass so that was a learning experience. > > I would like to get back to breeding angels though. Right now I only > have > the 3 tanks going and I'll stick to that. I don't have the room to really > get back to breeding everything. > > Thanks > Wendie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:45 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question > > > Hi Wendie, > > From their behavior, these three Neons are undoubtedly males. although > I've > never seen nor ever heard of these Tetras behaving so aggessively -- and > I've been keeping fish longer than you have, even spawning this species > numerous times. Once behavior like this starts, there's no way to > discourage its continuance. I could suggest that you rehome these three > individuals or take them back to your fish store and trade them in for > others. If that's not an option, depending upon your tank size and your > present bioload, you may want to consider adding a small number (5 > minimum) > of Tiger Barbs which are sure to keep these fish preoccupied in looking > out > for themselves rather than harrassing their conspecifics < g >. > > Your water parameters (GH and pH) may be more conducive to their spawning > requirements, and if so, this would be a reason why these particular males > would be both driving any females so hard and acting aggressively towards > other males. To reduce this behavior, if your water is soft and acidic, > you > could try hardening the water by adding a couple of teaspoons of crushed > coral to the filter and slowly increasing the pH slightly, to the low > basic > range. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@> wrote: > > > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this > > problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a > > bunch > > of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, > > chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come > > across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by > > chasing > > them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it > > over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and > > then > > finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > > > Any ideas??? > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50967	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

My comment about salt in a freshwater tank is that I have a community tank and I add a little for the mollies and its worked well for me - like a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 50 gallons once per year. Rick Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:12:30 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies I have to jump in here and agree with Ray about not using salt regularly in a freshwater aquarium. There are still more reasons why this should be avoided. The addition of sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium causes other problems, internal. Freshwater fish's organs are not adapted to handle a constant influx of sodium chloride, which can, over time, build up in their bodies and cause organ damage and function loss and affect their central nervous system. These are not things that happen in a few days or a week, such as is typical when medicating, but long term regular use, will cause internal damage that can be severe and can greatly affect growth and lifespan, not to mention cause suffering as organs gradually shut down and nervous system loses its ability to function normally. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@...> wrote: > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Becky, > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > > Becky > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50968	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > in his column “Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > my breeders. > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > input though. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50969	From: Ray	Date: 4/7/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

Dawn, Thanks for adding to this thread. I thought I had remembered Leporinus as being aggressive, and was going to post it, but it's been a while since I've observed them and so I thought that I was recalling the behavior of some Distichodus instead. The D. lusoso is an absolute terror. I don't think the D. sexfasciatus is as bad, but I could be wrong; they're both nice looking fish though. Yes, a Leporinus could very well kill an Angelfish, now that you mention it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@> wrote: > > > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50970	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi Rick, Mollies do best with some salt added to their water, as they are found in the wild in brackish water. I can't say whether or not it was beneficial to your other fish, not knowing what else you had, but in general livebearers prefer a higher concentration of TDS (total dissolved solids). Your Tablespoon of salt per 50 gallons though, is an extremely minute amount, equating to 6/100 (6 hundredths) of a teaspoon per gallon, which was probably not even noticed by any of your fish. On top of that, much of it would have been removed with the waste water after your first four partial water changes. You probably wouldn't have had any left after two or certainly three months, as you'd be losing a good amount with every gallon of water you removed during your regular maintenance. With the first 25% water change, you'd be removing 3/4 teaspoon of salt -- or if you did a 1/3 (33%) water change you'd have removed one teaspoon of the three teaspoons (one Tablespoon) of salt you added. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, duffy928542002@... wrote: > > My comment about salt in a freshwater tank is that I have a community tank and I add a little for the mollies and its worked well for me - like a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 50 gallons once per year. Rick > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:12:30 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > I have to jump in here and agree with Ray about not using salt regularly in a freshwater aquarium. There are still more reasons why this should be avoided. The addition of sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium causes other problems, internal. Freshwater fish's organs are not adapted to handle a constant influx of sodium chloride, which can, over time, build up in their bodies and cause organ damage and function loss and affect their central nervous system. These are not things that happen in a few days or a week, such as is typical when medicating, but long term regular use, will cause internal damage that can be severe and can greatly affect growth and lifespan, not to mention cause suffering as organs gradually shut down and nervous system loses its ability to function normally. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. > > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding-salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > > > Becky > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50971	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Amber, At 74 o, your Platies should be fine, and with most pairs of Angels it should discourage them from breeding. If you had Swordtails in the tank instead of Platies, you could even consider lowering the temp more and not be in danger of hovering near the fish's lower temperature extreme, but Platies are found in the slightly warmer lowlands in Mexico, whereas the Swortails are found in Mexico's higher and cooler elevations. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray. > I have a small group of Platty's in the tank as well, nothing else. They > should be fine at lower 70's temps. Right now I think the tank is around > 78 (most of my tanks are). I just hate watching the female wack the male > around, I feel sorry for him. LOL. > > Amber > > On 4/7/2011 8:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Lowering the temperature should help in disuading them from spawning. > > I wouldn't advise necessarily dropping it to 72 o, when not knowing > > what else you have in the tank, but 74 o should be enough to stop them > > for the most part. Not every pair will still spawn at 72 o, so this is > > worth a try. One other thing to keep in mind, if you can still > > maintain the water quality properly, reduce the quantity of water > > being changed at any one time. Larger water changes act as a stimulant > > for spawning. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > My female is 2 years old and the male is about 2 1/2 years old, I think. > > > I would rather not remove them and put them in a different tank, I'm > > > just letting them do what they want to do. I was just hoping I could do > > > something like; lower the water temp, etc. That would cause them to > > stop > > > wanting to lay eggs so often (and then eat them all right away). Mine > > > are very aggressive when in spawning mode (even towards each other), so > > > I was hoping to get them to spawn less often. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 8:10 PM, jayandbecky46290 wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray, I am trying to prove a point here, I understand that 12 > > inches is > > > > bigger than what most people get nowadays, but I'm talking extremes. > > > > I'm not thinking of any specific kind of angelfish I mean ALL > > > > freshwater. Of the fish I have now, the biggest is almost 2 inches > > not > > > > including finnage and their probably not yet 5 months old. Angels > > > > reach sexual maturity at aprox. 6 months, so their still quite small > > > > and very able to be kept in a 25 gallon tank. As for raising fry I > > > > mentioned before that I would probably keep aprox. 20 dime size 'fry' > > > > in 10 gallons, not all of them in 25 gallons... I expect around 100 > > > > fry because that is how many, on average, survive. > > > > OK and I'm putting an end to all this 'tanks too small' talk... > > > > "TANK REQUIREMENTS FOR BREEDING While angelfish which are in breeding > > > > condition can be bred in an aquarium as small as 10 gallon or in rare > > > > occasions even smaller... I would suggest a minimum of 15 gallons in > > > > which to house or breed a mature pair of angels, and if you plan not > > > > to remove the eggs from the parents to be hatched separately, a > > larger > > > > aquarium will be required. pairs which are intended to raise and care > > > > for their own offspring, should have a minimum of 25 gallon capacity > > > > or larger." It goes on to say that a larger tank is better and I > > > > totally agree but for now, because my fish are still and will be > > quite > > > > small for a while what I have is actually perfect. Besides I know my > > > > fish and I'm confidant that I'll know when to move them to larger > > > > tanks. *Quote from ANGELFISH KEEPING & BREEDING THEM IN CAPTIVITY Pg. > > > > 55 Authors: Braz Walker & Dr. Herbert k. Axelrod > > > > > > > > Thanks to anyone replying, I appreciate the feedback. > > > > > > > > Amber, Try removing the parents after they spawn, or after the first > > > > couple days, Apparently that may stop breeding behavior, plus you my > > > > end up having some successful fry without the parents there eatin' em > > > > up. Oh and your fish may still be growing by that size their growing > > > > very slowly so you might not notice. How old are they? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Aint that the truth. LOL. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 5:07 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > My experience is to eliminate the breeding behavior is to stay > > > > > > married!...LOL. > > > > > > .I just had to throw that out!... Sorry... Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 8:55:50 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > My Angelfish pair haven't grown any in the last year. I think > > they're > > > > > > fully grown now and only maybe 6-7 inches (including their > > top/bottom > > > > > > fins). They have their own 55 gallon tank so I know they aren't > > > > stunted. > > > > > > My Angel's also still eat their babies, they haven't had one > > > > successful > > > > > > fry batch last more than 2 hours after hatching. I've given up > > on them > > > > > > having any fry, but they seem happy together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Is there a way to discourage breeding behavior? LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 4/6/2011 11:10 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, while freshwater Angelfish CAN grow 12 inches > > tall, > > > > > > > these are no longer seen in the hobby today. I remember > > having them > > > > > > > over 50 years ago, but they're no longer being imported and the > > > > > > > domestic one rarely approach this size (not that they hardly > > attain > > > > > > > it). You may be thinking of 3/4 grown juvenile Altum Angels, > > > > which get > > > > > > > even taller when full grown. Some literature does state the use > > > > of 20 > > > > > > > gallon aquariums to house pairs of Angels (for breeding, not for > > > > > > > rearing), and they are referring to 20 Highs. Even better if > > you > > > > could > > > > > > > supply them with a 29 gallon tank, although your 25 gallon may > > > > > > > suffice, depending upon their size. If you want the pair to > > continue > > > > > > > spawning, they should not be removed from their spawning > > tank -- as > > > > > > > you're planning to do -- although you may only be intending on > > > > > > > breeding them once since you have little room to raise the fry. > > > > Know, > > > > > > > that an average Angelfish spawn may number well over 200 > > though, not > > > > > > > the 100 fry you are thinking of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It appears that you're thinking of leaving the eggs to hatch in > > > > the 25 > > > > > > > gallon tank, and to raise the fry there. There's no chance of > > > > properly > > > > > > > raising a spawn of Angels to dime size in a 25 gallon tank, > > even if > > > > > > > you had only 100, unless you plan on doing lots of large water > > > > changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > > > > <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can > > grow 12 > > > > > > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 > > gallon tank > > > > > > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, > > but > > > > this > > > > > > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then > > > > a few > > > > > > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also > > realize > > > > > > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 > > gallon, > > > > > > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish > > breeding > > > > > > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 > > gallons. > > > > > > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > > > > > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding > > tank'. > > > > > > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking > > > > out my > > > > > > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space > > to house > > > > > > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime > > sized > > > > than > > > > > > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also > > have > > > > a 20 > > > > > > > gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > > > > > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I > > currently > > > > have > > > > > > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works > > > > well, and > > > > > > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same > > number of > > > > > > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work > > also, > > > > > > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon > > tank... > > > > there > > > > > > > would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not > > more if > > > > > > > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > > > > > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be > > realistic to say > > > > > > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to > > disagree > > > > > > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon > > > > tank. > > > > > > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't > > imagine how > > > > > > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water > > > > changes > > > > > > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > > > > of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 > > <warrenprint@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of > > > > breeding > > > > > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > > > > > > Wattley states > > > > > > > > > > in his column โ€�Ask Jackโ€�, that for his > > > > breeding tanks for > > > > > > > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > > > > > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > > > > regular > > > > > > > (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ยพ) high, or what we call the > > > > 20-gallon long (30 > > > > > > > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit > > small for > > > > > > > juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for > > > > so many > > > > > > > years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe > > > > that the > > > > > > > stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering > > he has a > > > > > > > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he > > mentions > > > > would > > > > > > > fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another > > to keep > > > > > > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding > > > > within > > > > > > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall > > tank for a > > > > > > > pair. To > > > > > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of > > the > > > > fish > > > > > > > and the > > > > > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > > > > tanks > > > > > > > you have > > > > > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond > > salable > > > > > > > size, then you > > > > > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin > > > > development. Keep > > > > > > > in mind > > > > > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the > > tip of > > > > > > > the anal is > > > > > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to > > keep a > > > > > > > breeding pair > > > > > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep > > > > about 20 > > > > > > > fry in 10 > > > > > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when > > you > > > > need > > > > > > > lots of > > > > > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that > > point. > > > > > > > Thanks for the > > > > > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a > > bit too > > > > > > > small to breed > > > > > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" > > > > <jorflet@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have > > names. I > > > > > > > started with > > > > > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 > > gallon > > > > > > > fully running > > > > > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > > > > > > breed, but first > > > > > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a > > tank but I > > > > > > > need all the > > > > > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if > > > > anyone is > > > > > > > looking to > > > > > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ยท A great way to share experience & > > ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > > > replying, > > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.><((((ยบ>.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ>< > > > > > > ((((ยบ> > > > > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..><((((ยบ> > > > > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that > > is NOT > > > > > > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original > > > > message > > > > > > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > > > > subject)" <- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <ยบ((((><.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ<ยบ((((>< > > > > > > ยธ.ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธ. , > > > > > > > > > > > > > .ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท..<ยบ((((><ยทยà¸"ยฏ`ยท.ยธยธ. > > > > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on > > > > > > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page.ย > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > option > > > > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group > > and post > > > > > > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > > individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife ท A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > > > > > > ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.><((((บ>.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ>< > > > > ((((บ> ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..><((((บ> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <บ((((><.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ<บ((((>< > > > > ธ.ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธ. , > > .ทà¸"ฏ`ท..<บ((((><ทà¸"ฏ`ท.ธธ. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > > Membership" on > > > > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > > > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50972	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Wendie, What's NOT to love, about Angels < g >!!! Yes, they are extremely interesting to watch all their mannerisms when raising young. While the behavior these Cichlids display at that time is programmed into them genetically, they (these individuals) still need to carry this out successfully in order to see them through this rearing period -- and it's amazing how the fry know how to react to the different signals the parents give them just with a flick of their fins. So, having had Angels in the past, you know that breeding and raising them takes room to do it, but it's quite entertaining when you have the pairs raise their own. With 3 pairs, it looks like you were a bit occupied -- you must have enjoyed them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > I loved the Angels. I think my one pair was every 8 to 10 days while the > others were a bit slower. I had about 3 pairs at one time. I enjoyed > watching them parade the little ones around the tank and then "try" to put > them to bed at night when they were little. I like to die the first time > they gave them a "bath" until I found out it was normal. > Wendie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 1:18 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question > > > Wendie, > > As you may know, Tiger Barbs are notorious fin nippers -- which is why I > added the "grin," although they'd be sure to keep your trouble makers > pre-occupied. But then, they'd also keep every other fish on their toes > too. It's said that most all Barbs are fin nippers to some extent, which > I've never been able to confirm. Then too, the same is said about Tetras, > but again, all's I can agree to on them is that the Buenos Aires Tetra > (Hemigrammus caudovittatus) can sometimes be one. Some related species can > be bad actors though, like the Blind Cave Fish. You might want to try about > 5 (or 7, if you have the room) Cherry Barbs, which are not too large, yet > I've seen them as chasers -- usually just among themselves, and not doing > any damage as far as I could see, but they may distract the male Neons from > continuing their behavior. Zebra Danios are chaser too, and not only among > their own kind, but they can inflict damage. As they're top-dwellers, they > wouldn't be interacting enough with Neons anyway, them using the bottom > third of the tank. > > From your comment, I gather you must have raised Angels before. As such, > you undoubtedly know the space they require to raise a spawn -- AND - they > can spawn every eight days when in their prime. You'd probably be best in > postponing that idea until you have more tank space. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > I was thinking of adding something like that to keep their minds busy.. > > LOL. > > I looked at the barbs as a matter of fact but they were a bit large and I > > didn't want to upset my loaches in another tank if they had to be moved. > > The group leader has a temper... turns almost black when mad. > > > > I don't pay much attention to breeding anymore as there is no outlet to > > get > > rid of them and I'm too much of a putz to cull them. I ended up with 150 > > male bettas one time because of that. The plecos I sort of left in a box > > and ran at the local pet store. They agreed to take a few... my idea of a > > few was 50 or so. I had one store I traded with but they went out of > > business eventually. Now if the plecos breed I just let the clown loaches > > line up in front of the cave and dine. The cory cats used to lay eggs on > > the glass so that was a learning experience. > > > > I would like to get back to breeding angels though. Right now I only > > have > > the 3 tanks going and I'll stick to that. I don't have the room to really > > get back to breeding everything. > > > > Thanks > > Wendie > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2011 8:45 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question > > > > > > Hi Wendie, > > > > From their behavior, these three Neons are undoubtedly males. although > > I've > > never seen nor ever heard of these Tetras behaving so aggessively -- and > > I've been keeping fish longer than you have, even spawning this species > > numerous times. Once behavior like this starts, there's no way to > > discourage its continuance. I could suggest that you rehome these three > > individuals or take them back to your fish store and trade them in for > > others. If that's not an option, depending upon your tank size and your > > present bioload, you may want to consider adding a small number (5 > > minimum) > > of Tiger Barbs which are sure to keep these fish preoccupied in looking > > out > > for themselves rather than harrassing their conspecifics < g >. > > > > Your water parameters (GH and pH) may be more conducive to their spawning > > requirements, and if so, this would be a reason why these particular males > > would be both driving any females so hard and acting aggressively towards > > other males. To reduce this behavior, if your water is soft and acidic, > > you > > could try hardening the water by adding a couple of teaspoons of crushed > > coral to the filter and slowly increasing the pH slightly, to the low > > basic > > range. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "wendie o" <wendieo@> wrote: > > > > > > I've been keeping fish since the mid 50's and have never run into this > > > problem before... perhaps I've been lucky. > > > > > > I have 12 neons in a 20 gallon long with sand, a couple plants and a > > > bunch > > > of silk plants, rocks, caves, and wood. I am used to the nipping, > > > chasing, etc that normally goes with the tetras but I have never come > > > across this. Two or three of the neons are killing the others by > > > chasing > > > them down and head butting them in the stomach area. They keep doing it > > > over and over again until the neon in question becomes stationary and > > > then > > > finally dies. These are small sized neons. > > > > > > Any ideas??? > > > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50973	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:36 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question Wendie, What's NOT to love, about Angels < g >!!! Yes, they are extremely interesting to watch all their mannerisms when raising young. While the behavior these Cichlids display at that time is programmed into them genetically, they (these individuals) still need to carry this out successfully in order to see them through this rearing period -- and it's amazing how the fry know how to react to the different signals the parents give them just with a flick of their fins. So, having had Angels in the past, you know that breeding and raising them takes room to do it, but it's quite entertaining when you have the pairs raise their own. With 3 pairs, it looks like you were a bit occupied -- you must have enjoyed them. Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50974	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Q&ARe: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question

Ray, It's gonna be one of those days. I just sent an empty message. I loved the Angels but my hearts desire were Discus. I wanted some in the worse way but back then I didn't have either the room or the money. I also wanted to breed Kuhli Loaches. I was right at the peak with them when I had to leave for a couple days and left everything in care of someone.... you can guess the rest. According to Dr. Axelrod they were ready to go. At that time, no one really had any knowledge of them. Right now I have a tank set up aging so this fall I'll grab some. I know where I can get them. That entire Axelrod deal led him to offering me a job. I was very young at the time, and even then he was working around paying taxes. He wanted me to work behind the scenes with the Q&A section of the TFH. Talk about envy, I was drooling over the 6 foot long tank he had across from his desk. Sigh!!! Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:36 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Neon question Wendie, What's NOT to love, about Angels < g >!!! Yes, they are extremely interesting to watch all their mannerisms when raising young. While the behavior these Cichlids display at that time is programmed into them genetically, they (these individuals) still need to carry this out successfully in order to see them through this rearing period -- and it's amazing how the fry know how to react to the different signals the parents give them just with a flick of their fins. So, having had Angels in the past, you know that breeding and raising them takes room to do it, but it's quite entertaining when you have the pairs raise their own. With 3 pairs, it looks like you were a bit occupied -- you must have enjoyed them. Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50975	From: Wendie	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Neon question

Ray, Plecos are not bad to breed either. It's amusing to watch several females trying to wedge themselves into a small cave with a breeding male in it. The babies come out so small and with that immediate instinct to hide. Wendie

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50976	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

Ray, when it comes to aggressive, one is just as aggressive as the other. The D. sexfasciatus is one of my favorite fish, but it can be extremely difficult to find tank mates for them, thus the reason I never brought one home, was content to work with and study them at work. At the store it was a challenge to keep anything else in their tank even for the limited weeks or months we had them. They were also not a real popular species because of their aggression and difficulty in keeping with other fish, even in a large tank of 75 or more gallons. They "hunt" almost everything, including fish larger then themselves and those who hunt them, lol. These are surely not community fish and do best in a species only tank that is under populated and heavily planted/decorated. Other than a pleco I am at a loss for another species that works well with leporinus, especially in the confines of a 55 gallon tank. Most other fish would have little chance of surviving the attacks and/or stress. I have seen leporinus attack oscars, jack dempseys, and even convict cichlids... and they can do a lot of damage in a very short time. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Thanks for adding to this thread. I thought I had remembered Leporinus as being aggressive, and was going to post it, but it's been a while since I've observed them and so I thought that I was recalling the behavior of some Distichodus instead. The D. lusoso is an absolute terror. I don't think the D. sexfasciatus is as bad, but I could be wrong; they're both nice looking fish though. Yes, a Leporinus could very well kill an Angelfish, now that you mention it. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@> wrote: > > > > > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50977	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

\\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50978	From: Bill	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Steve, what can we do as hobbiest to bring back the regal angels of old? I've got a 50 tall hex that I'd love to have a couple of "tank-buster" angels "floating" across the landscape. Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 11:52:33 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the >angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, >tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, >granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small >portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they >guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I >have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish >breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. >Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and >certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning >happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As >for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and >only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" ><dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon >tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely >fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a >90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with >about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon >would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be >room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to >grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to >quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are >healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying >to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult >size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 >gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would >still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his breeding tanks for >Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x >12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 >3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But >since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I >find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in >considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he >mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color >variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for >the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to >the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT >LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you >can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home >page. > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where >you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50979	From: alijo79	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

Thank you for the advice, I googled them and they so have a reputation for being very aggressive. The pet store sales them as semi aggressive, but I should have known better and researched them myself. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@> wrote: > > > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50980	From: alijo79	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

Ok, thank you both for your help. I may need to rehome the leo, I really want angels! Plus it isnt fun only having two fish in that huge tank. Do you have any recommendations on fish that are compatable with the leo? I have had a red fin shark, and tiger barbs I bet they were attacked by the leo also. Its just funny to me because I have never seen him attack the other fish, he is always hiding in the plants, I really thought he was a shy fish. Guess hes just sneaky. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Thanks for adding to this thread. I thought I had remembered Leporinus as being aggressive, and was going to post it, but it's been a while since I've observed them and so I thought that I was recalling the behavior of some Distichodus instead. The D. lusoso is an absolute terror. I don't think the D. sexfasciatus is as bad, but I could be wrong; they're both nice looking fish though. Yes, a Leporinus could very well kill an Angelfish, now that you mention it. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@> wrote: > > > > > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50981	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi Ray and \\Steve//, I hope you guys don’t mind me jumping in here for a moment? I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett’s in Philadelphia. This question about the over-all size of these older or past Angelfish, as Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we are really talking here about “Wild” Angelfish or did I miss that from a previous posting? Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housing” assembly here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on Saturday’s, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too and again much larger than offered today. Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and always allowed for more questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my enthusiasm toward the hobby. Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank for them as time will allow me. Bill   --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input.  I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it.  You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers.  The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today.  Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time.  Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's.  They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago.    The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price.  By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others.    My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before.  Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy.  As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it.  As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them.  Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi).  In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare.  I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei.  While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's.      While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern.  These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz.  As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs.  For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance.  P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height.  Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels.  After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33.  On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species.  As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII.  The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI.  The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences.  There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points.  At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it.  While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences.  For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it.  We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes.  I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again.  Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare.  I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray          --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'.  Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank.  I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well.  40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair.  > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate.  Angel fry grow quite rapidly.  From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank.  Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank.  Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space.  > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks.  One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�,  that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn.  But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct.  Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding  within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50982	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Bill, I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's in tune with me on this, even going back to the NEC mention of them), but I'm referring to the wild "type" of these species -- although not necessary actual wild specimens. Note, even in paragraph nine where I'm pointed out some established differences between the two species, I'm referring to the variations of the verticle bands. Only the wild type have the verticle bands (except if you want to include Black-Lace morph). I am not completely discounting the fixed sports (domestic varieties) though, as in paragraph five, you'll note I referred to "in all its forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- and in paragraph six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic morphs" even though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not getting heavily into them. To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. scalare -- was the fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see it), P. eimekei was still available limitedly in certain but not all areas -- it was introduced to the hobby in 1928 and more easily bred. One thought I could add here is that if today's Angel is a hybrid, this may possibly help explain the variety of color morphs of it -- for the same reason that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with wild Platies, he was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several other variations with different mixes of genes, but this is only speculation of course. In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and it was referred to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a separate and large species, I also don't believe that this fish had developed any domestic strains, unless perhaps only as a cross with P. eimekei. As I see it, it has been P. eimekei with which these various morphs have been developed. The first domestic variety was the Half-Black, developed somewhere around 1948 (by a Mr. M. Carels, in Belgium). You'll note that none of the domestic morphs approach the size of the original "Scalare" we had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei. There are no color varieties have the saucer-sized bodies that true Scalares have. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for a moment? > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett's in Philadelphia. > > This question about the over-all size of these older or past Angelfish, as > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a > question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we are really talking here about “Wild” Angelfish or did I miss that from a previous posting? > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housing” assembly here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on Saturday's, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too and again much larger than offered today. > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and always allowed for more > questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my enthusiasm toward the hobby. > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank for them as time will allow me. > > Bill > >   > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > \\Steve//, > > I'm glad you asked about further input.  I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it.  You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers.  The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today.  Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time.  Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's.  They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago.  > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price.  By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others.  > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before.  Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy.  As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it.  As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them.  Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi).  In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare.  I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei.  While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's.  > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern.  These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schultz.  As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs.  > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance.  P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height.  Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels.  After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33.  On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species.  > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII.  The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI.  The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences.  There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points.  At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it.  While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences.  For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it.  We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes.  I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again.  Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare.  I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > Ray  > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'.  Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank.  I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well.  40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair.  > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate.  Angel fry grow quite rapidly.  From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank.  Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank.  Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space.  > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks.  One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > > in his column â€à "Ask Jack�,  that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn.  But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct.  Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding  within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50983	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Then may I add just one more comment? Is it possible to get them through import? I have never seen them with anyone? Check with Jeff's web-site? Something to think about? Hmmmmmmmmm. Pictures do show what you mention including those Red Eyes of theirs. Bill --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 5:16 PM > Bill,  > > I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's in > tune with me on this, even going back to the NEC mention of > them), but I'm referring to the wild "type" of these species > -- although not necessary actual wild specimens.  Note, > even in paragraph nine where I'm pointed out some > established differences between the two species, I'm > referring to the variations of the verticle bands.  > Only the wild type have the verticle bands (except if you > want to include Black-Lace morph).  I am not completely > discounting the fixed sports (domestic varieties) though, as > in paragraph five, you'll note I referred to "in all its > forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- and in paragraph > six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic morphs" > even though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not > getting heavily into them.  > > To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. scalare -- > was the fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see > it), P. eimekei was still available limitedly in certain but > not all areas -- it was introduced to the hobby in 1928 and > more easily bred.  One thought I could add here is that > if today's Angel is a hybrid, this may possibly help explain > the variety of color morphs of it -- for the same reason > that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with wild > Platies, he was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several > other variations with different mixes of genes, but this is > only speculation of course. > > In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and it > was referred to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a > separate and large species, I also don't believe that this > fish had developed any domestic strains, unless perhaps only > as a cross with P. eimekei.  As I see it, it has been > P. eimekei with which these various morphs have been > developed.  The first domestic variety was the > Half-Black, developed somewhere around 1948 (by a Mr. M. > Carels, in Belgium).  You'll note that none of the > domestic morphs approach the size of the original "Scalare" > we had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei.  > There are no color varieties have the saucer-sized bodies > that true Scalares have.      > > Ray > > >   > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for a > moment? > > > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary > Barrett's in Philadelphia. > > > > This question about the over-all size of these older > or past Angelfish, as > > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts > me in mind of a > > question about this fish or time period.  Could > it just be that we are really talking here about > “Wildâ€� Angelfish or did I miss that from a > previous posting? > > > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain > housingâ€� assembly here, I do remember that Franklin > had mentioned that fact to some of his customers.  They > did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At that time > also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on > Saturday's, they were mobbed!  <g>  If your > mission was to talk fish and ask questions and learn, Monday > through Wednesday was best.  Thursdays were always for > new shipments of fish and unpacking them.  Friday went > into the whole week-end time slot and they were very > busy.  > > > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger > than now a days, especially in their display tank.  > Their Discus were a size too and again much larger than > offered today.  > > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time > with me and always allowed for more > > questions.  They knew or remembered my name, and > seemed to enjoy my enthusiasm toward the hobby.  > > > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on > myself, Bill is now rising 7 Angelfish!  I already know > quite a bit about their lineage and that they are all > brothers and sisters.  To date, I have had 3 spawnings > and not one fry, they keep eat them.  Out of > > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size.  I > am setting up a tank for them as time will allow me. > > > > Bill > > > >   > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> > wrote: > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > > > > \\Steve//, > > > > I'm glad you asked about further input.  I seem to > remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at > the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we > brought up, even though we never got really into it.  You > may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists > had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just > not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. > > > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early > '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), > had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of > the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers.  The > only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this > Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for > the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the > size we have today.  Take into consideration, that during > the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of > Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm > industry was growing at the time.  Many of these hatcheries > were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in > Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the > Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and > then larger hatcheries like Beldt's.  They all stocked and > bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago.  > > > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by > the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby > on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and > distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock > of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price.  > By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were > just about all I saw at the that time in the local > wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like > those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few > others.  > > > > My take on this has not been without much study and > thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some > time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and > before.  Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even > though it will probably be open to some controversy.  As > you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any > form, although I have studied it.  As we both know, in fish > taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and > "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group > (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some > cases, as one species even though their different natural > locations show some differences between them.  Then too, we > have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough > of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise > closely related fish to separate species or even separate > genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, > as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as > splitters, separating related species into different taxa; > even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. > > > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four > Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. > eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi).  > In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish > taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of > freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently > lumping it with P. scalare.  I subscribe to the notion that > this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the > Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is > either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. > eimekei.  While possibly being a hybrid, they may be > closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as > today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained > fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding > between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started > back in the 1930's.  > > > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by > Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, > first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. > eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst > Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able > to discern.  These reasons are numerous and seemingly of > significant merit to keep these two fish as separate > species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number > of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including > Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schultz.  As P.eimekei > proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs.  > > > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a > greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this > measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and > the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 > times this same distance.  P. scalare's body height is > much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. > eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its > height.  Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal > vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable > difference. > > > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States > National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in > 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum > and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate > Regan's works on these Angels.  After studying the type > material at the National Museum in Washington, and including > the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted > that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - > 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33.  On the other hand, the > oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- > 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct > average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even > though there is some slight overlapping, as might be > expected in closely-related species.  > > > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count > for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is > a consistent XIII.  The hard anal fin ray count for P. > scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei > is again constant -- at VI.  The soft ray counts for both > fins, for these two species likewise show marked > differences.  There are numerous other physical, albeit > more minor differences between the two species, such as > coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands > between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral > line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation > above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points.  At this time (1953), > Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei > to be a valid species. > > > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting > these differences, I see no cause for the more recent > lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of > it.  While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to > argue with those who have previously decribed these two > species as such, with all their differences.  For that > matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii > (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, > especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if > extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. > scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, > why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. > scalare, just because of a more recent description of it.  > We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just > about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name > changes.  I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps > another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist > may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again.  > Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare > further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated > from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the > "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare.  I just recognize that we > had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now > we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's > all due to stunting! > > > > Ray  > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel > grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the > 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater > angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of > anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted > that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this > is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of > guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 > gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of > angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm > assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my > breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly > no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'.  Then after > spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space > to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until > their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present > and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my > adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the > 20 gallon tank.  I currently have one pair with about 100 > fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair > is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new > fry... which also works well.  40 or 55 gallon would work > also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with > the pair.  > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a > 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of > them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow > at a healthy rate.  Angel fry grow quite rapidly.  > From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but > I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult > angels in a 20 gallon tank.  Considering the adult size > of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live > long in a 20 gallon tank.  Even daily water changes to > keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > of space.  > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a > lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks.  One > comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for > spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not > have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so > on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish > Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > > > in his column > â€Å"Ask > Jack�,  that for his > breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I > only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it > is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 > ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon > long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn.  But since he > has been doing this for so many years, and making a living > from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a > myth or not correct.  Also, in considering he has a > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he > mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many > different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated > from one another to keep the color variants the same without > the worry of crossbreeding  within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo > <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: > Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 > gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends > on the size of the fish and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along > with the number of tanks you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to > keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for > proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of > the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need > 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them > I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime > size that's when you need lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving > them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that > 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults > healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my > fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding > Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both > of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank > going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater > especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail > me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A > great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING > below it when replying, Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, > DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if > CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" > <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP > in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups > emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your > delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page.  > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & > ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that > is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead > of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50984	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Ray, It depends on the species. Some can be found that move between pure freshwater to brackish to full marine water. None, so far as I know, live full time in full marine water, though there may be individual examples of this. If so, I would expect it would be found in some obscure scientific paper somewhere. On the other hand, I do believe that there is at least one species that has never seen even brackish water, and is strictly a FW fish. I'd have to look that one up again. It would be one that is not commercially available. The domestic varieties, however, probably have never seen brackish water in their lives for several generations at least. Salt in the water is not critical to their survival. If they are kept in hard water, they will do just fine. If someone has a tank of mollies, what they may like to try is to add some salt to the tank over a period of a few weeks, maintain that level for a bit, then let water changes remove the added salt. If you can get a small quantity of marine salt, it would be a better alternative than using kosher or similar salt, since it does contain trace minerals found in marine environments. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Hi Rick, Mollies do best with some salt added to their water, as they are found in the wild in brackish water. I can't say whether or not it was beneficial to your other fish, not knowing what else you had, but in general livebearers prefer a higher concentration of TDS (total dissolved solids). Your Tablespoon of salt per 50 gallons though, is an extremely minute amount, equating to 6/100 (6 hundredths) of a teaspoon per gallon, which was probably not even noticed by any of your fish. On top of that, much of it would have been removed with the waste water after your first four partial water changes. You probably wouldn't have had any left after two or certainly three months, as you'd be losing a good amount with every gallon of water you removed during your regular maintenance. With the first 25% water change, you'd be removing 3/4 teaspoon of salt -- or if you did a 1/3 (33%) water change you'd have removed one teaspoon of the three teaspoons (one Tablespoon) of salt you added. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, duffy928542002@... wrote: > > My comment about salt in a freshwater tank is that I have a community tank and I add a little for the mollies and its worked well for me - like a tablespoon of aquarium salt per 50 gallons once per year. Rick > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:12:30 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > I have to jump in here and agree with Ray about not using salt regularly in a freshwater aquarium. There are still more reasons why this should be avoided. The addition of sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium causes other problems, internal. Freshwater fish's organs are not adapted to handle a constant influx of sodium chloride, which can, over time, build up in their bodies and cause organ damage and function loss and affect their central nervous system. These are not things that happen in a few days or a week, such as is typical when medicating, but long term regular use, will cause internal damage that can be severe and can greatly affect growth and lifespan, not to mention cause suffering as organs gradually shut down and nervous system loses its ability to function normally. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be super happy. > > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the gills to decreasing it? > > > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they both increase. > > > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal conditions. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found Here: http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding- salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but the closer the better. > > > > Becky > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50985	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting good size on them. Reading what you posit, makes me wonder that when the angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild altums. That may be a regional thing though. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´Â ¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸ .·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50986	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

The best bet would probably be to find some wild scalares, as my previous post mentions. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 12:08 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Steve, what can we do as hobbiest to bring back the regal angels of old? I've got a 50 tall hex that I'd love to have a couple of "tank-buster" angels "floating" across the landscape. Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 11:52:33 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the >angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, >tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, >granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small >portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they >guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I >have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish >breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. >Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and >certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning >happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As >for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and >only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" ><dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon >tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely >fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a >90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with >about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon >would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be >room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to >grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to >quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are >healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying >to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult >size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 >gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would >still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his breeding tanks for >Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x >12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 >3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But >since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I >find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in >considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he >mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color >variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for >the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50987	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Bill, My dad kept angels when I was very young. As I grew older and started keeping fish, he stopped. I do recall those fish being very large, but that could be because of my size relative to theirs <g>. As I mentioned in my original reply to Ray tonight, the last time I kept any angels was about 40 years ago (god, that makes me feel so old, I guess I'll just stick with year numbers <g>) and I do recall they grew to a good size. Unfortunately, all the records I kept pre mid 90's were lost, and I haven't really kept any good records since, so I have no notes to refer back to. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill 1433 Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Hi Ray and \\Steve//, I hope you guys don’t mind me jumping in here for a moment? I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett’s in Philadelphia. This question about the over-all size of these older or past Angelfish, as Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we are really talking here about “Wild” Angelfish or did I miss that from a previous posting? Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housing” assembly here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on Saturday’s, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too and again much larger than offered today. Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and always allowed for more questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my enthusiasm toward the hobby. Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank for them as time will allow me. Bill --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50988	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

While doing a little google search I found this article about wild angelfish, some of it was very interesting (about the origins of our current angelfish) and it applies to the conversation you guys have been having. http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleWildAngelfish.htm Amber On 4/8/2011 1:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > Bill, > > I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's in tune with me > on this, even going back to the NEC mention of them), but I'm > referring to the wild "type" of these species -- although not > necessary actual wild specimens. Note, even in paragraph nine where > I'm pointed out some established differences between the two species, > I'm referring to the variations of the verticle bands. Only the wild > type have the verticle bands (except if you want to include Black-Lace > morph). I am not completely discounting the fixed sports (domestic > varieties) though, as in paragraph five, you'll note I referred to "in > all its forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- and in paragraph > six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic morphs" even > though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not getting heavily > into them. > > To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. scalare -- was the > fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see it), P. eimekei > was still available limitedly in certain but not all areas -- it was > introduced to the hobby in 1928 and more easily bred. One thought I > could add here is that if today's Angel is a hybrid, this may possibly > help explain the variety of color morphs of it -- for the same reason > that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with wild Platies, he > was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several other variations with > different mixes of genes, but this is only speculation of course. > > In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and it was referred > to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a separate and large species, I > also don't believe that this fish had developed any domestic strains, > unless perhaps only as a cross with P. eimekei. As I see it, it has > been P. eimekei with which these various morphs have been developed. > The first domestic variety was the Half-Black, developed somewhere > around 1948 (by a Mr. M. Carels, in Belgium). You'll note that none of > the domestic morphs approach the size of the original "Scalare" we > had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei. There are no color > varieties have the saucer-sized bodies that true Scalares have. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for a moment? > > > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett's in > Philadelphia. > > > > This question about the over-all size of these older or past > Angelfish, as > > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a > > question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we > are really talking here about “Wild� Angelfish or did I miss that > from a previous posting? > > > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housing� assembly > here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of > his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At > that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on > Saturday's, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and > ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays > were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went > into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. > > > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a > days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too > and again much larger than offered today. > > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and > always allowed for more > > questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my > enthusiasm toward the hobby. > > > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is > now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage > and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 > spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of > > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank > for them as time will allow me. > > > > Bill > > > >  > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > > > > \\Steve//, > > > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the > last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that > this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got > really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us > hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just > not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. > > > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and > any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big > ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as > big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were > juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby > then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the > size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's > and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries > even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. > Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as > Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the > Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then > larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large > Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large > Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale > from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern > wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by > outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, > Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the > local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those > of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which > I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even > at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my > take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. > As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, > although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and > especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some > ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together > under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their > different natural locations show some differences between them. Then > too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a > difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related > fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a > difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- > and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into > different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. > > > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish > species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii > (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" > in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the > species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently > lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this > "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have > today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid > of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may > be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's > many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though > they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein > and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & > Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and > described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've > been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of > significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted > by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists > of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schultz. As > P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth > vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 > between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement > of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is > much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's > body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds > that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 > vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National > Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as > the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and > reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. > After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, > and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was > noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and > close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count > for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. > scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be > expected in closely-related species. > > > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare > is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The > hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same > count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts > for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. > There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences > between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), > variations of the verticle bands between the two species, > curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz > fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid > species. > > > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these > differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei > with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a > taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed > these two species as such, with all their differences. For that > matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. > leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when > considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from > P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) > can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei > with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We > all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be > at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a > "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid > species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. > scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated > from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian > Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently > much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller > different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full > glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any > input on this one? > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a > 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more > if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > Wattley states > > > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that > for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the > 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing > this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to > believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in > considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks > that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many > different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the > fish and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > tanks you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. > Keep in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about > 20 fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you > need lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone > is looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50989	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hello: I saw some wild scalares available at a Fish Farm a little over a year ago so I guess they still bring in a few at least. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 7:40:10 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting good size on them. Reading what you posit, makes me wonder that when the angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild altums. That may be a regional thing though. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´Â ¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸ .·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50990	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

\\Steve//, I mention the salt being beneficial for Mollies as a general recommendation for the species (and hybrids?) most often found in the todays hobby. This would usually be Sphenops and Latipinna (if you could find this one), even though even these are not always found in brackish water. Yes, agreed -- most Mollies raised today have never seen salt, although considering how the species evolved in general, they would not be adverse to having a higher concentration of TDS -- and, this was exactly my meaning when I stated such in the same context as salt. While there are Mollies living in the coastal areas of Southern Mexico in brackish water, hard water -- as being high in TDS -- would suite them just fine. For the one Tablespoon of salt per 50 gallons that Rick uses though, it doesn't seem of much importance in this thread. I would have to say the Poecilia petenensis is one species never having seen brackish water since, for the most part, it comes from Lake Peten in central Guatemala. I believe the lake does have a limestone bed though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > It depends on the species. Some can be found that move between pure > freshwater to brackish to full marine water. None, so far as I know, live > full time in full marine water, though there may be individual examples of > this. If so, I would expect it would be found in some obscure scientific > paper somewhere. On the other hand, I do believe that there is at least one > species that has never seen even brackish water, and is strictly a FW fish. > I'd have to look that one up again. It would be one that is not commercially > available. > > The domestic varieties, however, probably have never seen brackish water in > their lives for several generations at least. Salt in the water is not > critical to their survival. If they are kept in hard water, they will do > just fine. > > If someone has a tank of mollies, what they may like to try is to add some > salt to the tank over a period of a few weeks, maintain that level for a > bit, then let water changes remove the added salt. If you can get a small > quantity of marine salt, it would be a better alternative than using kosher > or similar salt, since it does contain trace minerals found in marine > environments. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 8:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Hi Rick, > > Mollies do best with some salt added to their water, as they are found in > the wild in brackish water. I can't say whether or not it was beneficial to > your other fish, not knowing what else you had, but in general livebearers > prefer a higher concentration of TDS (total dissolved solids). Your > Tablespoon of salt per 50 gallons though, is an extremely minute amount, > equating to 6/100 (6 hundredths) of a teaspoon per gallon, which was > probably not even noticed by any of your fish. On top of that, much of it > would have been removed with the waste water after your first four partial > water changes. You probably wouldn't have had any left after two or > certainly three months, as you'd be losing a good amount with every gallon > of water you removed during your regular maintenance. With the first 25% > water change, you'd be removing 3/4 teaspoon of salt -- or if you did a 1/3 > (33%) water change you'd have removed one teaspoon of the three teaspoons > (one Tablespoon) of salt you added. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, duffy928542002@ wrote: > > > > My comment about salt in a freshwater tank is that I have a community tank > and I add a little for the mollies and its worked well for me - like a > tablespoon of aquarium salt per 50 gallons once per year. Rick > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 18:12:30 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > I have to jump in here and agree with Ray about not using salt regularly > in a freshwater aquarium. There are still more reasons why this should be > avoided. The addition of sodium chloride to a freshwater aquarium causes > other problems, internal. Freshwater fish's organs are not adapted to > handle a constant influx of sodium chloride, which can, over time, build up > in their bodies and cause organ damage and function loss and affect their > central nervous system. These are not things that happen in a few days or a > week, such as is typical when medicating, but long term regular use, will > cause internal damage that can be severe and can greatly affect growth and > lifespan, not to mention cause suffering as organs gradually shut down and > nervous system loses its ability to function normally. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray, First The site was just a quick reference to explain salt for me > quickly I read over nothing but what it said about salt which was all true, > and said what I wanted to get across about using aquarium salt. > > > I understand that brackish water is not good for angels but adding a > small amount of salt with each water change is not a bad thing for healing > fish. I sort of assumed, because of their size and the amount of damaged I > would imagine they'd have in order to look 'dying', that they would have > still have fin damage, even after all the worms are gone. > > > I add a teaspoon of salt to my tank each water change and my waters > hardness hasn't gone up, plus my fish are thriving, and they seem to be > super happy. > > > Btw there is no magical 'in between' salinity level, there's putting > alot of salt in, and putting little, I think we both know that. > > > Still, I understand and am glad to know that too much salt makes your > water hard, because I never noticed a spike in my waters hardness, so I > really just hadn't thought of that. Thanks. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Becky, > > > > > > > > I read your supplied link with interest. However, I don't understand > why you're recommending to Haecklers for her to be adding salt to her > Angelfish tank. Salt does have its benefits at those times when needed > and/or, when it can be helpful, but from what Haecklers is saying, these > Angelfish have been cured of camallanus worms and are healthy again now. > There is no longer any need for the use of salt in this aquarium. > > > > > > > > As for your noted enthusiasm with salt in the aquarium, it does have > its uses as applied at those times that certain problems arise which can be > helped by it, but this does not mean it should be used perpetually. Fresh > water aquariums do not need salt in the water; freshwater fishes never > evolved with salt in the water. Salt should not be used indisriminently in > the freshwater aquarium as the "tonic" you seem to view it as. > > > > > > > > As for the link, please know that there are a great many sites on the > internet pertaining to tropical fishes, many of which one should not take as > being factual or authoritative just because it may appear as such. While > some of this noted site has some merit, there are sections of it that are > either misleading or erroneous. Then too, even this site is noit > recommending to use salt at all times just because it has some benefits. > > > > > > > > As for salt inhibiting parasites, fish will secrete additional amounts > of body mucus -- because the salt irritates their skin. The additional body > slime will discourage parasites, like Ick, from gaining a "foothold" between > the fish's scales but this is no reason to keep salt in the tank at all > times. If you have a parasite, then treat it at the time, including adding > salt when it helps, but there's no need to treat for parasites indefinitely. > > > > > > > > Yes, salt can help fight some diseases -- but then, use it only when > you are fighting a disease, when it's prudent to do so. As for salt forming > mucus in the gills to help ward off parasites -- and lesser amounts of salts > clearing the gills of mucus -- which is it, and at what salinity levels does > this magical transformation take place from increasing the mucus in the > gills to decreasing it? > > > > > > > > With proper maintanence, fish should not be stressed, so again there's > no need to continually use salt. If and when fish are stress, perhaps by a > droip in temperature if the heater fails -- as an example -- then this may > be a time to add salt IF you see some beginning signs of an illness (such as > Ich). Otherwise, it's completely unnecessary. It is untrue, as this site > is saying, that when stressed fish find it more difficult to get rid of > water, that they lose bodily salts. Unless the fish is physically injured, > with a resultant open wound, the salt content in fish remains fairly > constant; primarily the water within the body will fluctuate, either > increasing or decreasing, as the osmotic pressure of the fish's environment > dictates. There may be occasions when a fish may not be able to get rid of > excess water as easily as it would normally, and at this time the addition > of salt will tend to help this issue -- BUT, salt being constantly in a > fish's environment will have an increased osmotic pressure exerted on the > fish's bodily functions causing a constant imbalance of proper hydration in > the fish as it releases more water through it's gills than normal in an > effort to equalize the external osmotic pressure. In effect, salt in the > water tends to dehydrate freshwater fishes, which have little control over > retaining its fluids, unlike marine fishes. > > > > > > > > As for salt "improving" the environment, the best environment the > hobbyist can supply the fish with is fresh, clean water. This is ensured > with adequate PWC's (partial water changes), as the properly cycled tank's > filter breaks down (oxidizes) first, the ammonia to nitrite, and then, > nitrite to nitrate. There is absolutely no need for salt in a properly > maintained aquarium having the proper bioload. There is also no truth in > your link's statement that "as the salinity drops, free ammonia increases. > Free ammonia increases under two conditions -- temperature and pH -- as they > both increase. > > > > > > > > Indirectly, as the salinity drops, so will the concentration of salts > within the fish drop as it retains a larger (more normal) balance of water > as a result of equalizing the osmotic pressure. At this time, without any > build up (concentration) of salts within the fish, its blood with be more > susceptible to taking in nitrite -- especially in the form of nitric acid if > the pH were to drop. At this time, the fish will develop a condition known > as "Brown Blood," which prevents the fish's blood from taking up oxygen -- > it is subsequently poisoned if the hobbyist is not diligent enough to > perform proper maintenance procedures; periodic water changing being one one > of them. It's at this time -- and BEFORE such nitrites and ammonia can > build up -- that a token (1/8 tsp. per gallon, max) addition of salt is most > beneficial in preventing this condition in the first place, and may be added > as a temporary measure if suspecting the imminent occurance of this > possibility, until proper maintenance can be restored. Quite often, too > large of a bioload is one reason for out of balanced cycles and increased > ammonia and nitrite levels, but of course this is only one cause. > > > > > > > > If this toxicity has already built up before the token amount of salt > is added, and the fish are seen to be suffering from it as a result, after > performing adequate water changes to remove the excess toxic organic wastes, > salt may still be used to detoxifying the fish, but it will require 3 > teaspoon of salt per gallon (added progressively over a couple of days), for > a minimum period of two weeks (or possibly up to three weeks, or more), > depending on the severity. Methylene Blue is also said to eliminate the > conditions of Brown Blood from excess nitrite build up. > > > > > > > > BTW, Angelfish have evolved in soft, acid water. They do best in > water with low mineral content (including low, or NO salt). Yes, they will > still live in harder water in captivity, but it's not their ideal > conditions. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I don't think that their stunted, with a healthy diet, enough space, > and regular water change, any fish should still has the potential to reach > full size. Awesome to hear you do weekly changes and a good amount! I work > at a pet store so I hear some water change horror stories. The only thing I > would suggest is adding some aquarium salt. I love aquarium salt and totally > stand behind its benefits, which if you don't already know can be found > Here: > http://www.aquariumfishwonders.com/aquarium-supplies/the-benefits-of-adding- > salt-to-your-freshwater-aquarium/ > > > > > yay aquarium salt! As for moving your fish, if you only have the > three Angels in a 20 gal, And their 2.5 in not counting finnage. I would say > you have at least a couple months before you have to worry about cramping > them... I find its easiest to just pay attention to the way the fish act, > when they look uncomfortable you'll be able to tell. Plus they'll reach > sexual maturity before they out grow the tank. And then, if you have mixed > sexes, they'll pair off and you'll have an odd man out and in a 20 gallon > that won't be fun for that little guy. So if you can I would try to get > another about the same size, they don't have to be VERY close in size, but > the closer the better. > > > > > Becky > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > So we got pre-dime size angels in October '10 and now they have > round bodies and are around 2.5 inches not counting the tails. We sold off > all but our favorite 3. They are in a 20 gallon but we have a 40 gallon, > just not set up yet - waiting for filter and heater. Do you think we've > stunted their growth? > > > > > > > > > > > > They caught camallanus worms from some guppies that were with them > and the medication/dying worms really set them back, they looked like they > were dying but they are healthy again now. So that may have set them back > by about a month, too, growth-wise. > > > > > > > > > > > > How long, do you think we have to make up our minds about the > filter we'll be using (we hope to breed them) and get them moved into the > new tank before it does any stunting or damage? We do weekly water changes, > around 20%-30% usually. They are friendly and healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a > 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one > pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other > pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which > also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no > predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if > you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. > From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 > months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can > even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the > water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50991	From: Ray	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Now, if you were just talking about Silvers, I could go along with you on this -- in that the Scalare was replced with Eimekei at the time the angelfish virus hit us from Asia. But, when considering all the domestic morphs, IF there were a Black Scalare (or a Marble Scalare, or a Smokey Scalare, etc.), it could not have suddenly been replaced by a Black Eimekei (or other varieties I mentioned). These strains were developed over time, after the original sports showed themselves, and were spontaeneous at a time not chosen by any breeder. I really don't think that the angel virus had anything to do with the species of Angel we have now. I was working with a number of various morphs before the virus hit, and continued working with them afterwards. None of the strains I had at the time could measure up to the size of the original Scalers we had -- and I was able to get some decent size on those fish, but just not enough to even come close to Scalare's size. I personally first noticed a marked difference in the size of Angels back in the mid to late 1960's when the local wholesalers started shipping them in heavily from the Florida Farms. Up until then, the larger fish could still be found. I even bought many pairs of these Florida fish from my wholesalers to work with them and to try to put additional size on them, but they were maxed out at the same size we see today -- and these were Silvers (wild-type). I think we can be fairly sure that even going back into the mid '50's, that the Black Lace that Herb Woolf & Son developed and were bought by Julianna & Fred Ludwig who proceeded to develop an All-Black strain from them were most probably Eimekei, since they never achieved the size of the Scalare but remained the size of Eimekei. The same holds for any other domestic strain of Angels that was ever developed, and these strains go back far earlier than the angel virus. I don't really know of a strain that was developed after the angel virus, yet none of them equal Scalare in size. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting > good size on them. Reading what you post, makes me wonder that when the > angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller > > eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not > recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure > some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild > altums. That may be a regional thing though. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > \\Steve//, > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last > time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one > of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You > may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger > Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are > missed because of it. > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop > that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were > the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup > saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this > Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part > -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into > consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good > number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm > industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were > single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat > larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY > hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and > bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish > farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late > 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock > of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, > these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that > time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like > those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been > of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at > the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even > though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a > taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As > we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" > and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related > species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even > though their different natural locations show some differences between them. > Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, > prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate > species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in > dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, > separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when > they see a need for it. > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- > Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to > as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish > taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater > Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I > subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and > that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either > P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a > hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just > as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even > though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and > subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then > by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) > in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These > reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two > fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number > of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, > Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I > maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body > length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the > snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 > times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 > ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated > in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal > vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) > reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons > of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's > and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material > at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other > three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz > came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 > - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row > count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare > even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in > closely-related species. > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - > XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin > ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei > is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these > two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other > physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as > coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two > species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully > agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see > no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a > subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to > argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, > with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation > that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, > especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like > this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. > leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. > eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. > We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all > surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" > ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps > one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the > eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes > erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize > that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have > a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory > since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this > one? > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches > tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches > tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is > a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, > maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 > gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in > a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm > assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in > there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking > 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately > taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to > house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon > tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would > barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about > 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 > gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. > 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the > tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would > be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect > them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime > size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they > are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with > trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can > even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the > water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley > states > > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon > tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x > 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile > Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and > making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a > myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding > farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and > allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the > color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his > breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. > To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and > the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you > have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, > then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in > mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal > is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding > pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry > in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots > of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks > for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to > breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started > with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully > running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but > first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need > all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´Â > ¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸ > .·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50992	From: Bill	Date: 4/8/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

I would love to run into an opportunity to snag a dozen or so wilds... maybe be part of a resurgent interest and breeding of the original strains.. Bill ________________________________ From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 10:50:38 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Hello: I saw some wild scalares available at a Fish Farm a little over a year ago so I guess they still bring in a few at least. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 7:40:10 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting good size on them. Reading what you posit, makes me wonder that when the angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild altums. That may be a regional thing though. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies \\Steve//, I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their different natural locations show some differences between them. Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in closely-related species. As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this one? > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than I'll be giving them away. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his >breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > my breeders. > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many different > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and the > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you have > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, then you > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in mind > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots of > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks for the > > > input though. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started with > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully running > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but first > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need all the > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is looking to > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´Â ¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸ .·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50993	From: Bill	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Ray.. I'm really really impressed with your handle on the Angel fish line.. Now if you could give me some practical advice.. Where can I find a 1/2 to full dozen specimens of the one's you extol so much?.. Just a newbie here.. Bill AKA.. willie.. too many Bill's on here. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 12:25:08 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Now, if you were just talking about Silvers, I could go along with you on this -- in that the Scalare was replced with Eimekei at the time the angelfish virus hit us from Asia. But, when considering all the domestic morphs, IF there were a Black Scalare (or a Marble Scalare, or a Smokey Scalare, etc.), it could not have suddenly been replaced by a Black Eimekei (or other varieties I mentioned). These strains were developed over time, after the original sports showed themselves, and were spontaeneous at a time not chosen by any breeder. I really don't think that the angel virus had anything to do with the species of Angel we have now. I was working with a number of various morphs before the virus hit, and continued working with them afterwards. None of the strains I had at the time could measure up to the size of the original Scalers we had -- and I was able to get some decent size on those fish, but just not enough to even come close to Scalare's size. I personally first noticed a marked difference in the size of Angels back in the mid to late 1960's when the local wholesalers started shipping them in heavily from the Florida Farms. Up until then, the larger fish could still be found. I even bought many pairs of these Florida fish from my wholesalers to work with them and to try to put additional size on them, but they were maxed out at the same size we see today -- and these were Silvers (wild-type). I think we can be fairly sure that even going back into the mid '50's, that the Black Lace that Herb Woolf & Son developed and were bought by Julianna & Fred Ludwig who proceeded to develop an All-Black strain from them were most probably Eimekei, since they never achieved the size of the Scalare but remained the size of Eimekei. The same holds for any other domestic strain of Angels that was ever developed, and these strains go back far earlier than the angel virus. I don't really know of a strain that was developed after the angel virus, yet none of them equal Scalare in size. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting > good size on them. Reading what you post, makes me wonder that when the > angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller > > eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not > recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure > some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild > altums. That may be a regional thing though. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > \\Steve//, > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last > time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one > of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You > may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger > Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are > missed because of it. > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop > that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were > the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup > saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this > Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part > -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into > consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good > number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm > industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were > single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat > larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY > hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and > bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish > farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late > 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock > of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, > these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that > time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like > those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been > of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at > the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even > though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a > taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As > we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" > and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related > species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even > though their different natural locations show some differences between them. > Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, > prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate > species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in > dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, > separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when > they see a need for it. > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- > Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to > as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish > taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater > Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I > subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and > that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either > P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a > hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just > as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even > though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and > subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then > by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) > in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These > reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two > fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number > of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, > Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I > maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body > length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the > snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 > times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 > ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated > in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal > vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) > reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons > of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's > and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material > at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other > three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz > came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 > - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row > count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare > even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in > closely-related species. > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - > XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin > ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei > is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these > two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other > physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as > coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two > species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully > agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see > no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a > subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to > argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, > with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation > that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, > especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like > this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. > leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. > eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. > We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all > surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" > ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps > one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the > eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes > erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize > that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have > a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory > since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this > one? > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches > tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches > tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is > a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, > maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 > gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in > a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm > assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in > there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking > 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately > taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to > house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon > tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would > barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about > 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 > gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. > 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the > tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would > be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect > them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime > size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they > are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with > trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can > even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the > water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley > states > > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jackâ€Â�, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon > tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x > 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile > Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and > making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a > myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding > farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and > allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the > color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his > breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. > To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and > the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you > have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, > then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in > mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal > is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding > pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry > in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots > of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks > for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to > breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started > with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully > running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but > first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need > all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´Â > ¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸ > .·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50994	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hello Amber: Thanx for sharing the article. It was a very interesting read. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 8, 2011 9:52:07 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies While doing a little google search I found this article about wild angelfish, some of it was very interesting (about the origins of our current angelfish) and it applies to the conversation you guys have been having. http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleWildAngelfish.htm Amber On 4/8/2011 1:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > Bill, > > I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's in tune with me > on this, even going back to the NEC mention of them), but I'm > referring to the wild "type" of these species -- although not > necessary actual wild specimens. Note, even in paragraph nine where > I'm pointed out some established differences between the two species, > I'm referring to the variations of the verticle bands. Only the wild > type have the verticle bands (except if you want to include Black-Lace > morph). I am not completely discounting the fixed sports (domestic > varieties) though, as in paragraph five, you'll note I referred to "in > all its forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- and in paragraph > six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic morphs" even > though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not getting heavily > into them. > > To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. scalare -- was the > fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see it), P. eimekei > was still available limitedly in certain but not all areas -- it was > introduced to the hobby in 1928 and more easily bred. One thought I > could add here is that if today's Angel is a hybrid, this may possibly > help explain the variety of color morphs of it -- for the same reason > that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with wild Platies, he > was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several other variations with > different mixes of genes, but this is only speculation of course. > > In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and it was referred > to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a separate and large species, I > also don't believe that this fish had developed any domestic strains, > unless perhaps only as a cross with P. eimekei. As I see it, it has > been P. eimekei with which these various morphs have been developed. > The first domestic variety was the Half-Black, developed somewhere > around 1948 (by a Mr. M. Carels, in Belgium). You'll note that none of > the domestic morphs approach the size of the original "Scalare" we > had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei. There are no color > varieties have the saucer-sized bodies that true Scalares have. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for a moment? > > > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett's in > Philadelphia. > > > > This question about the over-all size of these older or past > Angelfish, as > > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a > > question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we > are really talking here about “Wildâ€� Angelfish or did I miss that > from a previous posting? > > > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housingâ€� assembly > here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of > his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At > that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on > Saturday's, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and > ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays > were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went > into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. > > > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a > days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too > and again much larger than offered today. > > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and > always allowed for more > > questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my > enthusiasm toward the hobby. > > > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is > now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage > and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 > spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of > > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank > for them as time will allow me. > > > > Bill > > > >  > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > > > > \\Steve//, > > > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the > last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that > this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got > really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us > hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just > not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. > > > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and > any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big > ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as > big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were > juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby > then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the > size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's > and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries > even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. > Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as > Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the > Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then > larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large > Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large > Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale > from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern > wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by > outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, > Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the > local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those > of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which > I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even > at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my > take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. > As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, > although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and > especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some > ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together > under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their > different natural locations show some differences between them. Then > too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a > difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related > fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a > difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- > and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into > different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. > > > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish > species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii > (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" > in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the > species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently > lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this > "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have > today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid > of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may > be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's > many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though > they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein > and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & > Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and > described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've > been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of > significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted > by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists > of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schultz. As > P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth > vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 > between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement > of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is > much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's > body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds > that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 > vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National > Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as > the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and > reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. > After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, > and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was > noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and > close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count > for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. > scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be > expected in closely-related species. > > > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare > is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The > hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same > count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts > for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. > There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences > between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), > variations of the verticle bands between the two species, > curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz > fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid > species. > > > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these > differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei > with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a > taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed > these two species as such, with all their differences. For that > matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. > leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when > considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from > P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) > can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei > with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We > all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be > at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a > "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid > species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. > scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated > from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian > Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently > much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller > different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full > glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any > input on this one? > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a > 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more > if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > Wattley states > > > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jack�, that > for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the > 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing > this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to > believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in > considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks > that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many > different > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > pair. To > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the > fish and the > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > tanks you have > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > size, then you > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. > Keep in mind > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > the anal is > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > breeding pair > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about > 20 fry in 10 > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you > need lots of > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > Thanks for the > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > small to breed > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > started with > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > fully running > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > breed, but first > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > need all the > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone > is looking to > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >. > > , >.·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50995	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Suppli

Ray, I think that if you look at the man developed strains of many species, you will find differences in them from the wild stock. Many of those strains seem to be more "fragile" than wild types. Even something that seems as simple as a color and/or pattern variation, or a fin modification can lead to problems not seen before in the species. One good example may be the round bodied goldfish varieties. Problems seen in them are digestion problems and swim bladder problems. These problems may well be caused by the reorganization of the organs within the body to accommodate the shape of the fish. Developed black varieties have their own set of problems. They seem to be more susceptible to health problems than others, and are very prone to cancer, especially the closer to true black they are. The problem here seems to be that the melanophores that produce the black appear to be prone to becoming malignant cells than other pigment producers. The list can go on and on. One thing that also seems to be fairly common is that highly developed strains will also have a smaller overall size than the wild types of that species. All this has to do with genetics, which is a far more complex topic than those Punnett Squares you may have done in high school would make it seem. There are genes that will express a characteristic by themselves. There are other genes that act on genes to cause them to express a characteristic in a specific way and yet possibly another set of genes that cause the same characteristic to be expressed a different way \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 12:25 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Now, if you were just talking about Silvers, I could go along with you on this -- in that the Scalare was replced with Eimekei at the time the angelfish virus hit us from Asia. But, when considering all the domestic morphs, IF there were a Black Scalare (or a Marble Scalare, or a Smokey Scalare, etc.), it could not have suddenly been replaced by a Black Eimekei (or other varieties I mentioned). These strains were developed over time, after the original sports showed themselves, and were spontaeneous at a time not chosen by any breeder. I really don't think that the angel virus had anything to do with the species of Angel we have now. I was working with a number of various morphs before the virus hit, and continued working with them afterwards. None of the strains I had at the time could measure up to the size of the original Scalers we had -- and I was able to get some decent size on those fish, but just not enough to even come close to Scalare's size. I personally first noticed a marked difference in the size of Angels back in the mid to late 1960's when the local wholesalers started shipping them in heavily from the Florida Farms. Up until then, the larger fish could still be found. I even bought many pairs of these Florida fish from my wholesalers to work with them and to try to put additional size on them, but they were maxed out at the same size we see today -- and these were Silvers (wild-type). I think we can be fairly sure that even going back into the mid '50's, that the Black Lace that Herb Woolf & Son developed and were bought by Julianna & Fred Ludwig who proceeded to develop an All-Black strain from them were most probably Eimekei, since they never achieved the size of the Scalare but remained the size of Eimekei. The same holds for any other domestic strain of Angels that was ever developed, and these strains go back far earlier than the angel virus. I don't really know of a strain that was developed after the angel virus, yet none of them equal Scalare in size. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > The last time I kept angels, back in the early-mid 70's, I was still getting > good size on them. Reading what you post, makes me wonder that when the > angel plague was visited upon us, if that is when a big shift to the smaller > > eimekei came to the forefront, replacing the scalare entirely. I do not > recall seeing any of the wild scalares in quite some time, though I am sure > some people are still bringing them in. All the talk seems to be about wild > altums. That may be a regional thing though. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 11:53 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > \\Steve//, > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the last > time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that this was one > of the topics we brought up, even though we never got really into it. You > may remember, it was brought up that many of us hobbyists had such larger > Angelfish years ago, but that they are just not to be found today -- and are > missed because of it. > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and any shop > that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big ones; they were > the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup > saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this > Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for the most part > -- and they never stopped growing only at the size we have today. Take into > consideration, that during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good > number of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish farm > industry was growing at the time. Many of these hatcheries were > single-hobbyist operations, such as Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat > larger hatcheries like the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY > hatchery, and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and > bred the large Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large Florida fish > farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale from the mid-late > 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock > of the smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, > these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that > time in the local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like > those of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which I've been > of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even at that time at > the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, even > though it will probably be open to some controversy. As you know, I'm not a > taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it. As > we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) there are "lumpers" > and "splitters," with some ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related > species together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even > though their different natural locations show some differences between them. > Then too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a difference, > prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related fish to separate > species or even separate genera if they feel a difference (perhaps just in > dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which we refer to as splitters, > separating related species into different taxa; even erecting new taxa when > they see a need for it. > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish species -- > Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to > as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the field of fish > taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the species of freshwater > Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently lumping it with P. scalare. I > subscribe to the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, and > that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either > P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a > hybrid, they may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just > as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even > though they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein and > subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then > by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst Ahl) > in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able to discern. These > reasons are numerous and seemingly of significant merit to keep these two > fish as separate species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number > of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, > Sterba and Schutz. As P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I > maintain that this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth vs body > length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the > snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 > times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is much closer to a 1:1 > ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body is a bit more elongated > in comparison to its height. Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal > vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National Museum) > reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as the comparisons > of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's > and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. After studying the type material > at the National Museum in Washington, and including the works of these other > three ichthyologists, it was noted that the scale-row count that Schultz > came up with for P. eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 > - 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row > count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare > even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be expected in > closely-related species. > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare is XI - > XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The hard anal fin > ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei > is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts for both fins, for these > two species likewise show marked differences. There are numerous other > physical, albeit more minor differences between the two species, such as > coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands between the two > species, curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz fully > agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid species. > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these differences, I see > no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei with P. scalare as a > subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to > argue with those who have previously decribed these two species as such, > with all their differences. For that matter, there has been speculation > that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, > especially when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like > this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. > leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. > eimekei with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. > We all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be at all > surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a "splitter" > ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid species again. Perhaps > one such ichthyologist may even split P. scalare further, with having the > eastern Amazon location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes > erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize > that we had a consistently much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have > a somewhat smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full glory > since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any input on this > one? > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 inches > tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches > tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is > a small portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding eggs, > maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your talking about 20 > gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, I've just read online as well as in > a couple of angelfish breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm > assuming a tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in > there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking > 'breeding tank'. Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately > taking out my parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to > house anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a 20 gallon > tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by themselves would > barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have one pair with about > 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other pair is in a 65 > gallon tank with about the same number of new fry... which also works well. > 40 or 55 gallon would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the > tank with the pair. > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... there would > be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more if you expect > them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite rapidly. From dime > size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about 3 - 4 months if they > are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree with > trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can > even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes to keep the > water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack Wattley > states > > > > in his column â€Å"Ask Jack”, that for his breeding tanks for > Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard 55-gallon > tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon regular (24 > 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x > 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, a bit small for juvenile > Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing this for so many years, and > making a living from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a > myth or not correct. Also, in considering he has a regular fish breeding > farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and > allow for so many different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep the > color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within his > breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a pair. > To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the fish and > the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of tanks you > have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable size, > then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. Keep in > mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the anal > is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a breeding > pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about 20 fry > in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you need lots > of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. Thanks > for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too small to > breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I started > with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon fully > running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to breed, but > first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I need > all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone is > looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50996	From: Ray	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi Amber, The article you've found and posted a link to is very interesting; thanks for including it. Steve Rybicki (owner -- Angels Plus), the author of this article, is fairly knowledgeable when it comes to Angels. While he's a comparatively new fish breeder, he's been working with Angels for at least 30 - 35 years (since the late 1980's) as far as I know. I've known him for nearly 30 of those years and have conversed with him many times on the topic. I notice many of his statements support what I've been saying, although some of what he has to say in the article reflect his own personal opinions, a bit different from mine. I notice the Steve (Rybicki) includes Pterophyllum eimekei (among several other names) as a synonym for the current P. Scalare name, and goes on to state that these prior names were proven incorrect. First of all, when synonyms are used, they are usually recognized as still being valid and usable in the same context of the newer name, unless so stated as being invalid. This is often done since fellow ichthyologist are still using the most recent valid name for the fish and have not yet recognized the new description. I also need to remind here, that P. eimekei was NEVER considered as a synonym for P. scalare up until the time Dr. Sven Kullander decided to lump the former fish with the latter. The name (description) of P. eimekei was erected by Dr. Ernst Ahl in 1928 to describe a different fish. Further, although Kullander has studied what phenotype material he had available at his disposal (he's the Senior Curator of the Dep't. of Vertibrate Zoology for the Swedish Museum of Natural History), the results of his studies of the material he used express only his opinion on these fish as the latest description of them, but this has not "proven" that P. eimekei was incorrect; it's just the latest "findings" as per his paper on them. But yes, being as this is now the latest description of the fishes (the term "fishes" always being correct in scientific circles when discussing two or more different species), by the rules of nomenclature all future references to the fishes need to be recognized as P. scalare. This does not mean that if and when at some future date, that another ichthyologist studies the preserved material, that he can't redescribe (rename) it or even split P. scalare back into two or more species. I almost hesitate to touch on Rybicki's inclusion of P. dumerilii as a synonym for P. scalare -- whether the name is invalid or not. P. dumerilli was the original name of P. leopoldi -- they are/were one and the same fish, although dumerilii was subsequently deemed as invalid -- it was never considered to be P. scalare. I don't understand where Rybicki came up with his information. As for Rybicki's opinion that there may be other Angelfish species, I go along with him on this 100%, as I stated in my previous post on this. The Peruvian Angel may not be P. scalare, being a typical example. At least one of these other Angels that are now being "re-discovered" from various collecting areas could be P. eimekei, if it conforms to the findings of the type material for it as first discovered by the German importer, Eimeke and named by Ahl. The notched and straight pre-dorsal contours that Rybicki refers to, and which I similarly refer when noting the "shape of the head (with a markedly deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare)", pertains to the head shape. "Pre-dorsal contours" is talking and the outline of the body (particularly the head) before, or in front of, the dorsal fin. P. scalare, as both Rybicki and I agree to recognize, has a noticeable indentation to the head above the snout, or at least should when going by the original description of this species. Both of us also note that not all of what is being called "Scalares" today have this notched forehead. P. eimekei was described as having no indentation, and having a rounded contour to the head. It is well noted, that Rybicki also believes that today's various domestic Angelfish strains may be hybrids, which I too suspect (as written in my post), if not their actually being P. eimekei -- which I first and foremost believe when comparing them to Ahl's type material (genotype material) for this species. It is known in the aquarium circle that Dr. Kullander is one of those "lumpers" I was referring to when discussing taxonomists. I've corresponded with Sven numerous times, especially on the subject of Angelfish, but also on other fishes as well. I've come away with the opinion that his reputation goes before him -- and that he is the lumper that his colleagues recognize him to be. For this reason alone, I find it difficult to accept his redescription of P. scalare as including P. eimekei as a sub-species of this fish when their comparisons differ as much as they do. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > While doing a little google search I found this article about wild > angelfish, some of it was very interesting (about the origins of our > current angelfish) and it applies to the conversation you guys have been > having. > > http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleWildAngelfish.htm > > Amber > > On 4/8/2011 1:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's in tune with me > > on this, even going back to the NEC mention of them), but I'm > > referring to the wild "type" of these species -- although not > > necessary actual wild specimens. Note, even in paragraph nine where > > I'm pointed out some established differences between the two species, > > I'm referring to the variations of the verticle bands. Only the wild > > type have the verticle bands (except if you want to include Black-Lace > > morph). I am not completely discounting the fixed sports (domestic > > varieties) though, as in paragraph five, you'll note I referred to "in > > all its forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- and in paragraph > > six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic morphs" even > > though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not getting heavily > > into them. > > > > To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. scalare -- was the > > fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see it), P. eimekei > > was still available limitedly in certain but not all areas -- it was > > introduced to the hobby in 1928 and more easily bred. One thought I > > could add here is that if today's Angel is a hybrid, this may possibly > > help explain the variety of color morphs of it -- for the same reason > > that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with wild Platies, he > > was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several other variations with > > different mixes of genes, but this is only speculation of course. > > > > In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and it was referred > > to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a separate and large species, I > > also don't believe that this fish had developed any domestic strains, > > unless perhaps only as a cross with P. eimekei. As I see it, it has > > been P. eimekei with which these various morphs have been developed. > > The first domestic variety was the Half-Black, developed somewhere > > around 1948 (by a Mr. M. Carels, in Belgium). You'll note that none of > > the domestic morphs approach the size of the original "Scalare" we > > had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei. There are no color > > varieties have the saucer-sized bodies that true Scalares have. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > > > > > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for a moment? > > > > > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary Barrett's in > > Philadelphia. > > > > > > This question about the over-all size of these older or past > > Angelfish, as > > > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in mind of a > > > question about this fish or time period. Could it just be that we > > are really talking here about “Wild” Angelfish or did I miss that > > from a previous posting? > > > > > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain housing” assembly > > here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that fact to some of > > his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At > > that time also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on > > Saturday's, they were mobbed! <g> If your mission was to talk fish and > > ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was best. Thursdays > > were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking them. Friday went > > into the whole week-end time slot and they were very busy. > > > > > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than now a > > days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus were a size too > > and again much larger than offered today. > > > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with me and > > always allowed for more > > > questions. They knew or remembered my name, and seemed to enjoy my > > enthusiasm toward the hobby. > > > > > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, Bill is > > now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit about their lineage > > and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I have had 3 > > spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of > > > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I am setting up a tank > > for them as time will allow me. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > >  > > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > > > > > > > \\Steve//, > > > > > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to remember that the > > last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC Convention, that > > this was one of the topics we brought up, even though we never got > > really into it. You may remember, it was brought up that many of us > > hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they are just > > not to be found today -- and are missed because of it. > > > > > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early '50's, and > > any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had only these big > > ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with bodies nearly as > > big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at this time were > > juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby > > then for the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the > > size we have today. Take into consideration, that during the 1940's > > and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern fish hatcheries > > even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing at the time. > > Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as > > Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like the > > Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, and then > > larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and bred the large > > Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > > > > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the large > > Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on a large scale > > from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the Northern > > wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller hatcheries by > > outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these smaller, > > Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the that time in the > > local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those > > of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few others. > > > > > > My take on this has not been without much study and thought, which > > I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after review -- even > > at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, I'll give you my > > take on it, even though it will probably be open to some controversy. > > As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist in any form, > > although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and > > especially lately) there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some > > ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species together > > under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even though their > > different natural locations show some differences between them. Then > > too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these small > > differences further, and finding what they consider enough of a > > difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely related > > fish to separate species or even separate genera if they feel a > > difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- > > and which we refer to as splitters, separating related species into > > different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need for it. > > > > > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four Angelfish > > species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei and P. dumerilii > > (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent years, the "lumpers" > > in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the > > species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, apparently > > lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion that this > > "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the Angelfish we have > > today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid > > of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a hybrid, they may > > be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- just as today's > > many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained fertile even though > > they're all the result of crossbreeding between these two species, > > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > > > > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by Lichtenstein > > and subsequently redescribed several times, first by Cuvier & > > Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and > > described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've > > been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and seemingly of > > significant merit to keep these two fish as separate species, as noted > > by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized ichthyologists > > of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schultz. As > > P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that > > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > > > > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater body depth > > vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 > > between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. eimekei's measurement > > of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's body height is > > much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's > > body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height. Myers finds > > that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. scalare's 30 > > vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > > > > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States National > > Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in 1953, as well as > > the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. scalare, and > > reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works on these Angels. > > After studying the type material at the National Museum in Washington, > > and including the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was > > noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. > > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - 36, and > > close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique scale row count > > for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz > > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of scale rows in P. > > scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, as might be > > expected in closely-related species. > > > > > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for P. scalare > > is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a consistent XIII. The > > hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, whereas this same > > count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The soft ray counts > > for both fins, for these two species likewise show marked differences. > > There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor differences > > between the two species, such as coloration (of wild forms), > > variations of the verticle bands between the two species, > > curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head (with a markedly > > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > > termination and several other points. At this time (1953), Schultz > > fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei to be a valid > > species. > > > > > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these > > differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of P. eimekei > > with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I stated, I'm not a > > taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have previously decribed > > these two species as such, with all their differences. For that > > matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. > > leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially when > > considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes like this (from > > P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being considered P. leopoldi) > > can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei > > with P. scalare, just because of a more recent description of it. We > > all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about every > > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. I would not be > > at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or so, that a > > "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid > > species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even split P. > > scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon location separated > > from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously called the "Peruvian > > Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a consistently > > much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat smaller > > different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to its full > > glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do you have any > > input on this one? > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish can grow 12 > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my 25 gallon tank > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk life, but this > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent spawning then a few > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish breeding > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a tall 20 gallons. > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no plants, no > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking 'breeding tank'. > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime sized than > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and I also have a > > 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair of angels by > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. I currently have > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon would work also, > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 gallon tank... > > there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this size, but not more > > if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel fry grow quite > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I have to disagree > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a 20 gallon tank. > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even daily water changes > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot of talk on > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One comment made mention that a > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have noticed is > > > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > Wattley states > > > > > > in his column â€à "Ask Jackâ€Â�, that > > for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only used a standard > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is the 20 gallon > > regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) high, or what we call the > > 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, > > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since he has been doing > > this for so many years, and making a living from it, I find it hard to > > believe that the stated size is a myth or not correct. Also, in > > considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks > > that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many > > different > > > > > > color variations to be kept separated from one another to keep > > the color variants the same without the worry of crossbreeding within > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > pair. To > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on the size of the > > fish and the > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with the number of > > tanks you have > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep them beyond salable > > size, then you > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper fin development. > > Keep in mind > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of > > the anal is > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 gallons to keep a > > breeding pair > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd probably keep about > > 20 fry in 10 > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size that's when you > > need lots of > > > > > > space and i would probably be giving them away at that point. > > Thanks for the > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 gallons is a bit too > > small to breed > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, all of mine have names. I > > started with > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > fully running > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of which I'd like to > > breed, but first > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I have a tank but I > > need all the > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. So please if anyone > > is looking to > > > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50997	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Hi \\Steve// Kind of the same story here. I lost a great recipe that I had for homemade food. I do know most of the ingredients but the proportions to the recipe elude me! But even worse than you, I never wrote anything down and even when I did, I lost the notes themselves! Getting back into the hobby, I now write down a lot of notes and also back them up and print to hard copy as necessary. But what’s done is done and there is no reason to reproach myself for it. As you are already aware, as time goes along, so to does ones memory’s being constantly edited and sometime completely lost! Like they say “You fight the fights you know you can win”. <g> Bill --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 7:54 PM > Bill, > > My dad kept angels when I was very young. As I grew older > and started keeping fish, he stopped. I do recall those fish > being very large, but that could be because of my size > relative to theirs <g>. As I mentioned in my original > reply to Ray tonight, the last time I kept any angels was > about 40 years ago (god, that makes me feel so old, I guess > I'll just stick with year numbers <g>) and I do recall > they grew to a good size. Unfortunately, all the records I > kept pre mid 90's were lost, and I haven't really kept any > good records since, so I have no notes to refer back to. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of bill 1433 > Sent: Friday, April 08, 2011 1:59 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > I hope you guys don’t mind me jumping in here for a > moment? > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary > Barrett’s in Philadelphia. > > This question about the over-all size of these older or > past Angelfish, as > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, puts me in > mind of a > question about this fish or time period.  Could it > just be that we are really talking here about > “Wildâ€� Angelfish or did I miss that from a > previous posting? > > Gathering up some fragments from my old “brain > housingâ€� assembly here, I do remember that Franklin > had mentioned that fact to some of his customers.  They > did call these fish, "Scalares" not Angelfish. At that time > also I quickly learned never to go to the shop on > Saturday’s, they were mobbed!  <g>  > If your mission was to talk fish and ask questions and > learn, Monday through Wednesday was best.  Thursdays > were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking > them.  Friday went into the whole week-end time slot > and they were very busy.  > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much bigger than > now a days, especially in their display tank.  Their > Discus were a size too and again much larger than offered > today.  > Although I was just a little kid, they still took time with > me and always allowed for more > questions.  They knew or remembered my name, and > seemed to enjoy my enthusiasm toward the hobby.  > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date on myself, > Bill is now rising 7 Angelfish!  I already know quite a > bit about their lineage and that they are all brothers and > sisters.  To date, I have had 3 spawnings and not one > fry, they keep eat them.  Out of > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size.  I am > setting up a tank for them as time will allow me. > > Bill > > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> > wrote: > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > \\Steve//, > > I'm glad you asked about further input.  I seem to > remember that the last time I saw you a little while ago at > the NEC Convention, that this was one of the topics we > brought up, even though we never got really into it.  > You may remember, it was brought up that many of us > hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but that they > are just not to be found today -- and are missed because of > it. > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the early > '50's, and any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), > had only these big ones; they were the common Angelfish of > the day, with bodies nearly as big as tea-cup saucers.  > The only smaller Angels at this time were juveniles of this > Scalare, as this was all that was seen in the hobby then for > the most part -- and they never stopped growing only at the > size we have today.  Take into consideration, that > during the 1940's and '50's, there were still a good number > of Northern fish hatcheries even though the Florida fish > farm industry was growing at the time.  Many of these > hatcheries were single-hobbyist operations, such as > Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries like > the Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY hatchery, > and then larger hatcheries like Beldt's.  They all > stocked and bred the large Scalare which we remember from > years ago.    > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred by the > large Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on > a large scale from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed > to the Northern wholesalers, replacing the stock of the > smaller hatcheries by outcompeting them in price.  By > the mid 1960's, these smaller, Florida-bred Angels were just > about all I saw at the that time in the local wholesalers, > save for a few dedicated hobbyists' fish like those of Bob > Travers from Long Island and a very few > others.    > > My take on this has not been without much study and > thought, which I've been of the opinion of for quite some > time after review -- even at that time at the NEC, and > before.  Since you asked, I'll give you my take on it, > even though it will probably be open to some > controversy.  As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an > ichthyolgist in any form, although I have studied it.  > As we both know, in fish taxonomy (and especially lately) > there are "lumpers" and "splitters," with some > ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related species > together under one genus, or in some cases, as one species > even though their different natural locations show some > differences between them.  Then too, we have other > ichthyologists who delve into these small differences > further, and finding what they consider enough of a > difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise closely > related fish to separate species or even separate genera if > they feel a difference (perhaps > just in dentition, as an example) warrants it -- and which > we refer to as splitters, separating related species into > different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a need > for it. > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had four > Angelfish species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. > eimekei and P. dumerilii (now referred to as P. > leopoldi).  In more recent years, the "lumpers" in the > field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate one of the > species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, > apparently lumping it with P. scalare.  I subscribe to > the notion that this "lumping" may have been too premature, > and that the Angelfish we have today in the hobby, in all > its forms, is either P. eimekei or a hybrid of P. scalare > and P. eimekei.  While possibly being a hybrid, they > may be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- > just as today's many Platy and Swordtail variations have > remained fertile even though they're all the result of > crossbreeding between these two species, which Dr. George > Myers started back in the 1930's.      > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 by > Lichtenstein and subsequently redescribed several times, > first by Cuvier & Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. > eimekei was discovered (in 1927) and described (by Ernst > Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, as far as I've been able > to discern.  These reasons are numerous and seemingly > of significant merit to keep these two fish as separate > species, as noted by the physical descriptions of a number > of recognized ichthyologists of the time, including > Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba and Schutz.  As P.eimekei > proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I maintain that > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs.  > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a greater > body depth vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement > being 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 between the snout-tip and the caudal > base, vs P. eimekei's measurement of only 1 1/2 times this > same distance.  P. scalare's body height is much closer > to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas P. eimekei's body > is a bit more elongated in comparison to its height.  > Myers finds that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs > P. scalare's 30 vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United States > National Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in > 1953, as well as the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum > and P. scalare, and reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate > Regan's works on these Angels.  After studying the type > material at the National Museum in Washington, and including > the works of these other three ichthyologists, it was noted > that the scale-row count that Schultz came up with for P. > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of 28 - > 36, and close to Ahl's 32 - 33.  On the other hand, the > oblique scale row count for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- > 38 by Myers and 34 - 38 by Schultz -- showing a distinct > average of a higher number of scale rows in P. scalare even > though there is some slight overlapping, as might be > expected in closely-related species.  > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's count for > P. scalare is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a > consistent XIII.  The hard anal fin ray count for P. > scalare is V - VII, whereas this same count for P. eimekei > is again constant -- at VI.  The soft ray counts for > both fins, for these two species likewise show marked > differences.  There are numerous other physical, albeit > more minor differences between the two species, such as > coloration (of wild forms), variations of the verticle bands > between the two species, curvature/shape of the lateral > line, shape of head (with a markedly deeper indentation > above the snout on P. scalare), shape of anal fin > termination and several other points.  At this time > (1953), Schultz fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. > eimekei to be a valid species. > > With reviewing all data available to me, and noting these > differences, I see no cause for the more recent lumping of > P. eimekei with P. scalare as a subspecies of it.  > While, as I stated, I'm not a taxonomist, who am I to argue > with those who have previously decribed these two species as > such, with all their differences.  For that matter, > there has been speculation that perhaps P. dumerilii (P. > leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, especially > when considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes > like this (from P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to > being considered P. leopoldi) can be proposed, why do I need > to recognize the lumping of p. eimekei with P. scalare, just > because of a more recent description of it.  We all > know that fish are being re-described (re-named) just about > every day; it's hard to keep up with the many name > changes.  I would not be at all surprise if, in perhaps > another five years or so, that a "splitter" > ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to be a valid > species again.  Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even > split P. scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon > location separated from the Peruvian location (sometimes > erroneously called the "Peruvian Altum") of P. > scalare.  I just recognize that we had a consistently > much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a somewhat > smaller different one, and I doubt it's all due to > stunting! > > Ray          > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic angel grow to > its full glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, > do you have any input on this one? > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater angelfish > can grow 12 inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, > and my 25 gallon tank is 15 inches tall, granted that would > be a pretty bunk life, but this isn't life, this is a small > portion of life spent spawning then a few days of guarding > eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I also realize that your > talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have a 25 gallon, > I've just read online as well as in a couple of angelfish > breeding books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a > tall 20 gallons. Also I would only have my breeding pair in > there, no plants, no gravel, and certainly no other fish! > We're talking 'breeding tank'.  Then after spawning > happens I plan on almost immediately taking out my parents, > within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the space to house > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their dime > sized than I'll be giving them away. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at present and > I also have a 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my > adult pair of angels by themselves would barely fit into the > 20 gallon tank.  I currently have one pair with about > 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which works well, and the other > pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the same number of > new fry... which also works well.  40 or 55 gallon > would work also, provided there are no predatory fish in the > tank with the pair.  > > > The other comment about dime size fry in a 10 > gallon tank... there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them > at this size, but not more if you expect them to grow at a > healthy rate.  Angel fry grow quite rapidly.  From > dime size to quarter size it would be realistic to say about > 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack Wattley, but I > have to disagree with trying to keep much less spawn adult > angels in a 20 gallon tank.  Considering the adult size > of a healthy discus, I can't imagine how they can even live > long in a 20 gallon tank.  Even daily water changes to > keep the water clean enough would still not fix the problem > of space.  > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has been a lot > of talk on > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks.  One comment > made mention that a > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient for > spawning. > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// may not have > noticed is > > > > the fact that almost every month or so on > the issue of breeding > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish Hobbyist > magazine), Jack Wattley states > > > > in his column > â€Å"Ask > Jack�,  that for his > breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon tanks! > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, I only > used a standard 55-gallon tank for > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state if it is > the 20 gallon regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 > ¾) high, or what we call the 20-gallon > long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, or seems to be, > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn.  But since he > has been doing this for so many years, and making a living > from it, I find it hard to believe that the stated size is a > myth or not correct.  Also, in considering he has a > regular fish breeding farm, the 20-gallon tanks that he > mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow for so many > different > > > > color variations to be kept separated from > one another to keep the color variants the same without the > worry of crossbreeding  within his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo > <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least a 40 > gallon tall tank for a pair. To > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank depends on > the size of the fish and the > > > > number of fish you have to raise along with > the number of tanks you have > > > > with any given size. If you wish to keep > them beyond salable size, then you > > > > will need to provide tall tanks for proper > fin development. Keep in mind > > > > that the measurement from the tip of the > dorsal to the tip of the anal is > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 PM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only need 20 > gallons to keep a breeding pair > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed them I'd > probably keep about 20 fry in 10 > > > > gallons, until they get to about dime size > that's when you need lots of > > > > space and i would probably be giving them > away at that point. Thanks for the > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time that 25 > gallons is a bit too small to breed > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of adults > healthy). > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love my fish, > all of mine have names. I started with > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding Bettas and > have a 25 gallon fully running > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, both of > which I'd like to breed, but first > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. tank going, I > have a tank but I need all the > > > > accessories, filter & heater especially. > So please if anyone is looking to > > > > sell some used supplies please e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50998	From: bill 1433	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Supplies

Amber, Thanks so much for the link. Good information! Bill --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 9:52 PM > While doing a little google search I > found this article about wild > angelfish, some of it was very interesting (about the > origins of our > current angelfish) and it applies to the conversation you > guys have been > having. > > http://www.angelsplus.com/ArticleWildAngelfish.htm > > Amber > > On 4/8/2011 1:16 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > I'm not sure about \\Steve// (although I believe he's > in tune with me > > on this, even going back to the NEC mention of them), > but I'm > > referring to the wild "type" of these species -- > although not > > necessary actual wild specimens. Note, even in > paragraph nine where > > I'm pointed out some established differences between > the two species, > > I'm referring to the variations of the verticle bands. > Only the wild > > type have the verticle bands (except if you want to > include Black-Lace > > morph). I am not completely discounting the fixed > sports (domestic > > varieties) though, as in paragraph five, you'll note I > referred to "in > > all its forms," meaning morphs/strains/varieties -- > and in paragraph > > six I mentioned in passing "of today's many domestic > morphs" even > > though I'm not discussing them there; I'm just not > getting heavily > > into them. > > > > To clarify further, while the larger fish -- P. > scalare -- was the > > fish normally seen in the '40's and '50's (as I see > it), P. eimekei > > was still available limitedly in certain but not all > areas -- it was > > introduced to the hobby in 1928 and more easily bred. > One thought I > > could add here is that if today's Angel is a hybrid, > this may possibly > > help explain the variety of color morphs of it -- for > the same reason > > that when Dr. Myers was crossing wild Swordtails with > wild Platies, he > > was getting Red hybrids as one morph and several other > variations with > > different mixes of genes, but this is only speculation > of course. > > > > In any case, as I still believe the P. scalare -- and > it was referred > > to as "Scalare," as you've said -- is a separate and > large species, I > > also don't believe that this fish had developed any > domestic strains, > > unless perhaps only as a cross with P. eimekei. As I > see it, it has > > been P. eimekei with which these various morphs have > been developed. > > The first domestic variety was the Half-Black, > developed somewhere > > around 1948 (by a Mr. M. Carels, in Belgium). You'll > note that none of > > the domestic morphs approach the size of the original > "Scalare" we > > had, but are the same size as the wild Eimekei. There > are no color > > varieties have the saucer-sized bodies that true > Scalares have. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill > 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > > > >  Hi Ray and \\Steve//, > > > > > > > > > I hope you guys don't mind me jumping in here for > a moment? > > > > > > I was, years back, a customer at the legendary > Barrett's in > > Philadelphia. > > > > > > This question about the over-all size of these > older or past > > Angelfish, as > > > Ray mentioned here on group just the other day, > puts me in mind of a > > > question about this fish or time period. Could it > just be that we > > are really talking here about “Wildâ€� > Angelfish or did I miss that > > from a previous posting? > > > > > > Gathering up some fragments from my old > “brain housingâ€� assembly > > here, I do remember that Franklin had mentioned that > fact to some of > > his customers. They did call these fish, "Scalares" > not Angelfish. At > > that time also I quickly learned never to go to the > shop on > > Saturday's, they were mobbed! <g> If your > mission was to talk fish and > > ask questions and learn, Monday through Wednesday was > best. Thursdays > > were always for new shipments of fish and unpacking > them. Friday went > > into the whole week-end time slot and they were very > busy. > > > > > > I can tell you that their fish were large, much > bigger than now a > > days, especially in their display tank. Their Discus > were a size too > > and again much larger than offered today. > > > Although I was just a little kid, they still took > time with me and > > always allowed for more > > > questions. They knew or remembered my name, and > seemed to enjoy my > > enthusiasm toward the hobby. > > > > > > Incidentally \\Steve//, to bring you up to date > on myself, Bill is > > now rising 7 Angelfish! I already know quite a bit > about their lineage > > and that they are all brothers and sisters. To date, I > have had 3 > > spawnings and not one fry, they keep eat them. Out of > > > the 7, there are not 2 of them the same size. I > am setting up a tank > > for them as time will allow me. > > > > > > Bill > > > > > >  > > > --- On Fri, 4/8/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Friday, April 8, 2011, 11:52 AM > > > > > > > > > \\Steve//, > > > > > > I'm glad you asked about further input. I seem to > remember that the > > last time I saw you a little while ago at the NEC > Convention, that > > this was one of the topics we brought up, even though > we never got > > really into it. You may remember, it was brought up > that many of us > > hobbyists had such larger Angelfish years ago, but > that they are just > > not to be found today -- and are missed because of > it. > > > > > > I remember having the large Scalares back in the > early '50's, and > > any shop that would carry Angels (and most did), had > only these big > > ones; they were the common Angelfish of the day, with > bodies nearly as > > big as tea-cup saucers. The only smaller Angels at > this time were > > juveniles of this Scalare, as this was all that was > seen in the hobby > > then for the most part -- and they never stopped > growing only at the > > size we have today. Take into consideration, that > during the 1940's > > and '50's, there were still a good number of Northern > fish hatcheries > > even though the Florida fish farm industry was growing > at the time. > > Many of these hatcheries were single-hobbyist > operations, such as > > Barrett's in Philadelphia, somewhat larger hatcheries > like the > > Feasterville, PA hatchery and the Blauvelt, NY > hatchery, and then > > larger hatcheries like Beldt's. They all stocked and > bred the large > > Scalare which we remember from years ago. > > > > > > The smaller Angelfish we have today, mostly bred > by the large > > Florida fish farms, were introduced into the hobby on > a large scale > > from the mid-late 1950's, on, and distributed to the > Northern > > wholesalers, replacing the stock of the smaller > hatcheries by > > outcompeting them in price. By the mid 1960's, these > smaller, > > Florida-bred Angels were just about all I saw at the > that time in the > > local wholesalers, save for a few dedicated hobbyists' > fish like those > > of Bob Travers from Long Island and a very few > others. > > > > > > My take on this has not been without much study > and thought, which > > I've been of the opinion of for quite some time after > review -- even > > at that time at the NEC, and before. Since you asked, > I'll give you my > > take on it, even though it will probably be open to > some controversy. > > As you know, I'm not a taxonomist, nor an ichthyolgist > in any form, > > although I have studied it. As we both know, in fish > taxonomy (and > > especially lately) there are "lumpers" and > "splitters," with some > > ichthyologists preferring to group (lump) related > species together > > under one genus, or in some cases, as one species even > though their > > different natural locations show some differences > between them. Then > > too, we have other ichthyologists who delve into these > small > > differences further, and finding what they consider > enough of a > > difference, prefer to assign two or more otherwise > closely related > > fish to separate species or even separate genera if > they feel a > > difference (perhaps just in dentition, as an example) > warrants it -- > > and which we refer to as splitters, separating related > species into > > different taxa; even erecting new taxa when they see a > need for it. > > > > > > Some many years ago in the aquarium field, we had > four Angelfish > > species -- Pterophyllum altum, P. scalare, P. eimekei > and P. dumerilii > > (now referred to as P. leopoldi). In more recent > years, the "lumpers" > > in the field of fish taxonomy have chosen to eliminate > one of the > > species of freshwater Angelfish, noteably, P. eimekei, > apparently > > lumping it with P. scalare. I subscribe to the notion > that this > > "lumping" may have been too premature, and that the > Angelfish we have > > today in the hobby, in all its forms, is either P. > eimekei or a hybrid > > of P. scalare and P. eimekei. While possibly being a > hybrid, they may > > be closely related enough so as to remain fertile -- > just as today's > > many Platy and Swordtail variations have remained > fertile even though > > they're all the result of crossbreeding between these > two species, > > which Dr. George Myers started back in the 1930's. > > > > > > While P. scalare was discovered and named in 1823 > by Lichtenstein > > and subsequently redescribed several times, first by > Cuvier & > > Valenciennes, then by Heckel, P. eimekei was > discovered (in 1927) and > > described (by Ernst Ahl) in 1928 -- with good reason, > as far as I've > > been able to discern. These reasons are numerous and > seemingly of > > significant merit to keep these two fish as separate > species, as noted > > by the physical descriptions of a number of recognized > ichthyologists > > of the time, including Pelligren, Ahl, Myers, Sterba > and Schultz. As > > P.eimekei proved to be a much easier fish to breed, I > maintain that > > this is the source of today's many domestic morphs. > > > > > > For starters, it is noted that P. scalare has a > greater body depth > > vs body length than P. eimekei, this measurement being > 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 > > between the snout-tip and the caudal base, vs P. > eimekei's measurement > > of only 1 1/2 times this same distance. P. scalare's > body height is > > much closer to a 1:1 ratio, height to length, whereas > P. eimekei's > > body is a bit more elongated in comparison to its > height. Myers finds > > that P. eimekei has only 28 spinal vertibrae vs P. > scalare's 30 > > vertibrae -- a very noteable difference. > > > > > > Dr. Leonard Schultz (Curator of Fishes, United > States National > > Museum) reviewed Ahl's description of P. eimekei in > 1953, as well as > > the comparisons of descriptions of P. altum and P. > scalare, and > > reviewed Pelligren's, Ahl's and C. Tate Regan's works > on these Angels. > > After studying the type material at the National > Museum in Washington, > > and including the works of these other three > ichthyologists, it was > > noted that the scale-row count that Schultz came up > with for P. > > eimekei was 31 - 33, coinciding with Myers's count of > 28 - 36, and > > close to Ahl's 32 - 33. On the other hand, the oblique > scale row count > > for P. scalare is seen to be 33 -- 38 by Myers and 34 > - 38 by Schultz > > -- showing a distinct average of a higher number of > scale rows in P. > > scalare even though there is some slight overlapping, > as might be > > expected in closely-related species. > > > > > > As for the hard dorsal fin ray count: Schultz's > count for P. scalare > > is XI - XIII, and his count for P. eimekei is a > consistent XIII. The > > hard anal fin ray count for P. scalare is V - VII, > whereas this same > > count for P. eimekei is again constant -- at VI. The > soft ray counts > > for both fins, for these two species likewise show > marked differences. > > There are numerous other physical, albeit more minor > differences > > between the two species, such as coloration (of wild > forms), > > variations of the verticle bands between the two > species, > > curvature/shape of the lateral line, shape of head > (with a markedly > > deeper indentation above the snout on P. scalare), > shape of anal fin > > termination and several other points. At this time > (1953), Schultz > > fully agreed with Ahl's data, considering P. eimekei > to be a valid > > species. > > > > > > With reviewing all data available to me, and > noting these > > differences, I see no cause for the more recent > lumping of P. eimekei > > with P. scalare as a subspecies of it. While, as I > stated, I'm not a > > taxonomist, who am I to argue with those who have > previously decribed > > these two species as such, with all their differences. > For that > > matter, there has been speculation that perhaps P. > dumerilii (P. > > leopoldi) and P. eimekei are the same species, > especially when > > considering their similar body shapes, so if extremes > like this (from > > P. eimekei being consider P. scalare to being > considered P. leopoldi) > > can be proposed, why do I need to recognize the > lumping of p. eimekei > > with P. scalare, just because of a more recent > description of it. We > > all know that fish are being re-described (re-named) > just about every > > day; it's hard to keep up with the many name changes. > I would not be > > at all surprise if, in perhaps another five years or > so, that a > > "splitter" ichthyologist may just find P. eikemei to > be a valid > > species again. Perhaps one such ichthyologist may even > split P. > > scalare further, with having the eastern Amazon > location separated > > from the Peruvian location (sometimes erroneously > called the "Peruvian > > Altum") of P. scalare. I just recognize that we had a > consistently > > much larger Angelfish in the past and now we have a > somewhat smaller > > different one, and I doubt it's all due to stunting! > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Steve > Szabo" <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I don't think anyone has seen a domestic > angel grow to its full > > glory since the angel fish plague in the 80's. Ray, do > you have any > > input on this one? > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 11:47 AM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies > > > > > > > > Thank you Bill and Jack Wattley! Freshwater > angelfish can grow 12 > > inches tall, tip of dorsal to tip of anal fin, and my > 25 gallon tank > > is 15 inches tall, granted that would be a pretty bunk > life, but this > > isn't life, this is a small portion of life spent > spawning then a few > > days of guarding eggs, maybe if they guard not eat. I > also realize > > that your talking about 20 gallons, but I said I have > a 25 gallon, > > I've just read online as well as in a couple of > angelfish breeding > > books that 20 gallons is sufficient, I'm assuming a > tall 20 gallons. > > Also I would only have my breeding pair in there, no > plants, no > > gravel, and certainly no other fish! We're talking > 'breeding tank'. > > Then after spawning happens I plan on almost > immediately taking out my > > parents, within 3 days. As for fry I do not have the > space to house > > anymore than 100 fry, one spawn, and only until their > dime sized than > > I'll be giving them away. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have 2 pairs of spawning angels at > present and I also have a > > 20 gallon tank... I can assure you that my adult pair > of angels by > > themselves would barely fit into the 20 gallon tank. > I currently have > > one pair with about 100 fry in a 90 gallon tank which > works well, and > > the other pair is in a 65 gallon tank with about the > same number of > > new fry... which also works well. 40 or 55 gallon > would work also, > > provided there are no predatory fish in the tank with > the pair. > > > > > The other comment about dime size fry > in a 10 gallon tank... > > there would be room for maybe 4 - 6 of them at this > size, but not more > > if you expect them to grow at a healthy rate. Angel > fry grow quite > > rapidly. From dime size to quarter size it would be > realistic to say > > about 3 - 4 months if they are healthy. > > > > > > > > > > I don't wish to argue with Jack > Wattley, but I have to disagree > > with trying to keep much less spawn adult angels in a > 20 gallon tank. > > Considering the adult size of a healthy discus, I > can't imagine how > > they can even live long in a 20 gallon tank. Even > daily water changes > > to keep the water clean enough would still not fix the > problem of space. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, bill > 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Over the past few days there has > been a lot of talk on > > > > > > Rearing or spawning tanks. One > comment made mention that a > > > > > > 20 gallon, as not being sufficient > for spawning. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think what Dawn and \\Steve// > may not have noticed is > > > > > > the fact that almost every month > or so on the issue of breeding > > > > > > tanks, in the TFH (Tropical Fish > Hobbyist magazine), Jack > > Wattley states > > > > > > in his column > â€Å"Ask > Jack�, that > > for his breeding tanks for Discus, he uses 20-gallon > tanks! > > > > > > Many years ago when I had Discus, > I only used a standard > > 55-gallon tank for > > > > > > my breeders. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now, although Jack does not state > if it is the 20 gallon > > regular (24 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 16 ¾) > high, or what we call the > > 20-gallon long (30 1/4 x 12 1/2 x 12 3/4, still it is, > or seems to be, > > a bit small for juvenile Discus to spawn. But since > he has been doing > > this for so many years, and making a living from it, I > find it hard to > > believe that the stated size is a myth or not > correct. Also, in > > considering he has a regular fish breeding farm, the > 20-gallon tanks > > that he mentions would fill the bill nicely and allow > for so many > > different > > > > > > color variations to be kept > separated from one another to keep > > the color variants the same without the worry of > crossbreeding within > > his breeding pairs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 4/3/11, Steve Szabo > <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: > Supplies > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 7:31 > PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To breed angels, you need at least > a 40 gallon tall tank for a > > pair. To > > > > > > raise fry, the size of the tank > depends on the size of the > > fish and the > > > > > > number of fish you have to raise > along with the number of > > tanks you have > > > > > > with any given size. If you wish > to keep them beyond salable > > size, then you > > > > > > will need to provide tall tanks > for proper fin development. > > Keep in mind > > > > > > that the measurement from the tip > of the dorsal to the tip of > > the anal is > > > > > > greater than the SL of the fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > > > > > Behalf Of jayandbecky46290 > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2011 5:24 > PM > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: > Supplies > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I'm pretty sure you only > need 20 gallons to keep a > > breeding pair > > > > > > of angels. And if I was to breed > them I'd probably keep about > > 20 fry in 10 > > > > > > gallons, until they get to about > dime size that's when you > > need lots of > > > > > > space and i would probably be > giving them away at that point. > > Thanks for the > > > > > > input though. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You should know ahead of time > that 25 gallons is a bit too > > small to breed > > > > > > angelfish (or to keep a pair of > adults healthy). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, > "jayandbecky46290" <jorflet@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi I'm new, and I love > my fish, all of mine have names. I > > started with > > > > > > betta splendens, I'm now breeding > Bettas and have a 25 gallon > > fully running > > > > > > with 4 young angels and guppies, > both of which I'd like to > > breed, but first > > > > > > I need to get my other 25 gal. > tank going, I have a tank but I > > need all the > > > > > > accessories, filter & heater > especially. So please if anyone > > is looking to > > > > > > sell some used supplies please > e-mail me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A > great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and > EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, > DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was > re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > > , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your > HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the > groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to > receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single > email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the > group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to > receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience > & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it > when replying, > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT > that is NOT > > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message > > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was > re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this > matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, > instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on > > "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to > receive the digest, > > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single > email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the > group and post > > replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to > receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 50999	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: all fried up.

woo hoo.. i had given up on getting younguns this time and had chalked it up to first spawning jitters on the male corries part. the eggs in the tank dissapeared days ago...eaten probbably. a week and a half post spawn i had also given up on the 6 eggs i separated. ... i look in the container this morning and theres 6 of them wiggilin around in there....guess i should boil an egg... :- )>>>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51000	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: freshwater angelfish

I have to be honest, in a 55 gallon tank, considering the size this fish is going to get to (12 inches), no, there really is not anything that is going to mix into that tank safely. The leporunis is also only going to fit in that tank temporarily, until it outgrows a 55. If this were a larger tank I would suggest maybe an aggressive cichlid such as the red devil, but the red devil would have to outsize the leporunis by quite a bit to even have a chance, and then you stand the risk of the red devil eating/killing the leporunis... as well as then you'd have 2 fish that will quickly outgrow a 55 gallon tank. If the red devil is small enough to not eat the leprounis, then you stand the risk of the leporunis killing the red devil. It doesn't surprise me that you didn't witness any attacks. Leporunis tend to be "stalkers" and they also tend to be nocturnal hunters, though that is not always the case. Each leporunis has its own specific personality, so it can be hard to predict what will and what won't work until you know the personality of your specific fish. In your case, I wouldn't even try to add anything more to that tank. If 55 gallons is as large a tank as you wish to work with, then I would have to suggest taking the leporunis back to the lfs. (you might also want to scold them a bit for not warning you about this fish, aggression and adult size... which is a good reason for them to take it back and exchange it for something that will stay small enough to remain in a 55 gallon, and peaceful enough to work in a community situation.) If you desire angels, then maybe they will trade it for an angel or 2. A pair of angels can work wonderfully with gold barbs, cherry barbs, and other "semi aggressive" fishes, or even maybe a school of larger tetras (black skirt tetras are awesome in a school). Lastly, I know 55 gallons may seem huge to you, but keep in mind, to a fish, its actually quite small. Be careful not to overstock the tank. When I refer to a tank as "huge" that would be well over 100 - 200 gallons. Because of its stocking limits, I gave up working with 55 gallon tanks yrs ago. When working with fish that will get long (over 8 inches), expect to need a larger tank as the fish mature. Long fish will find it difficult to turn around comfortably in a 55 gallon due to its narrow width (front to back). Best of luck to you! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@...> wrote: > > Ok, thank you both for your help. I may need to rehome the leo, I really want angels! Plus it isnt fun only having two fish in that huge tank. Do you have any recommendations on fish that are compatable with the leo? I have had a red fin shark, and tiger barbs I bet they were attacked by the leo also. Its just funny to me because I have never seen him attack the other fish, he is always hiding in the plants, I really thought he was a shy fish. Guess hes just sneaky. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > Thanks for adding to this thread. I thought I had remembered Leporinus as being aggressive, and was going to post it, but it's been a while since I've observed them and so I thought that I was recalling the behavior of some Distichodus instead. The D. lusoso is an absolute terror. I don't think the D. sexfasciatus is as bad, but I could be wrong; they're both nice looking fish though. Yes, a Leporinus could very well kill an Angelfish, now that you mention it. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I would suspect your issue is not the angels so to speak, its the leporinus. Leporinus are quite aggressive, too much to be attempting to add angels to its tank. It is likely that the leporinus is what killed your angels, either via aggressive attacks or extreme amounts of stress, or both. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alijo79" <alissajordan79@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I am wanting to add angelfish to my 55 gallon tank. I have tried angels before with no luck, so does anybody have tips/advice for me. I don't have any idea what I do to kill them right now I have only a cleaner fish and one Leporinus Fasciatus. I appreciate any help with this. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51001	From: haecklers	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Suppli

Beyond that you can get into methylation of genes - that is, some genes are only expressed when certain nutrients are present, so some seeming birth defects are actually only genetic in the sense that there was inadequate nutrition to allow the full expression of the full genetic code. For more on methylation see http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001692.html I know fish hobbyists try to find good foods for their fish but in the old days more of the serious hobbyists (or so I've been told) fed live and fed varieties of cultured or collected foods. These days food is really convenient and dried in various pellets and flakes but there's a limit to the amount of the more fragile nutrients that they can maintain in those long shelf-life foods. Even the frozen foods can lose some nutritional value over time as oils do slowly go rancid. That's not even including all the health effects of the preservatives and artificial coloring, etc. that is added, which can also cause a kind of negative methylation, meaning covering up part of the DNA so it is not expressed or allowing parts of DNA that are counter to the health of the fish to express themselves - cancer, for instance is part of the DNA that should be sitting quiet suddenly causing out of control growth. The fragile nutrients include fat-soluble forms of vitamins A, D, K, E, along with Omega 3, the phytochemicals that haven't even been studied plus various enzymes. Dr. Pottenger did studies of cats and diet and found huge differences in their physical form based on diets that turned out to be deficient in choline and vitamin K. Cats fed raw organ meats from grass-fed animals, or even raw milk from grass-fed cows showed superior development and their offspring were mellower and better parents. If you lived in a climate where you could let your angelfish live outdoors all year long, would it reach its full potential size, or would its offspring? That's a completely different matter than what is being discussed here as far as genetics. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I think that if you look at the man developed strains of many species, you > will find differences in them from the wild stock. Many of those strains > seem to be more "fragile" than wild types. Even something that seems as > simple as a color and/or pattern variation, or a fin modification can lead > to problems not seen before in the species. > > One good example may be the round bodied goldfish varieties. Problems seen > in them are digestion problems and swim bladder problems. These problems may > well be caused by the reorganization of the organs within the body to > accommodate the shape of the fish. > > Developed black varieties have their own set of problems. They seem to be > more susceptible to health problems than others, and are very prone to > cancer, especially the closer to true black they are. The problem here seems > to be that the melanophores that produce the black appear to be prone to > becoming malignant cells than other pigment producers. > > The list can go on and on. One thing that also seems to be fairly common is > that highly developed strains will also have a smaller overall size than the > wild types of that species. > > All this has to do with genetics, which is a far more complex topic than > those Punnett Squares you may have done in high school would make it seem. > There are genes that will express a characteristic by themselves. There are > other genes that act on genes to cause them to express a characteristic in a > specific way and yet possibly another set of genes that cause the same > characteristic to be expressed a different way > > \\Steve// > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51002	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Su

Many live foods are not difficult to raise, though there may be some spousal feedback about some of those that may need to be refrigerated--good excuse for dorm fridge which can also serve s a handy home for a 6 pack of beverage. There are also some cultures that can develop an specific unpleasant odor which our modern sensibilities will no longer tolerate. For those interested in live foods, a recommended book, highly, is "Culturing Live Foods: A Step-by-Step Guide for Culturing One's Own Food for the Home Aquarium_ by Michael R. Hellweg. It has quickly become today's bible on live foods. If one keeps fish outdoors in a pond situation during the warm weather months, the change seen in the fish will be nothing short of amazing. This is due to the live foods they will begin to eat, I seldom need to feed fish kept outdoors, throwing in some flake once a week or so to remind them that this is what they will eat the rest of the year. I have not tried angels outdoors, so I do not know for sure that this will help their growth and vigor, but, based on my experience with other fish, I would say that it certainly would not harm them. Just remember that whatever container you place them in, it needs to be deep enough so that their dorsal and ventral finnage growth is not diminished. Genetics is a big area for study. Most fish genetics have not been deeply studied, so there are a lot of unknowns about them. There are a lot of genetic triggers and even those that govern humans are not fully known or understood. Unfortunately, I know just enough to sound to most people like I know a lot more than I actually do, which will probably get me into trouble one of these days <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2011 3:56 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Angels, Genetics, and Other Stuff WAS: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Supplies Beyond that you can get into methylation of genes - that is, some genes are only expressed when certain nutrients are present, so some seeming birth defects are actually only genetic in the sense that there was inadequate nutrition to allow the full expression of the full genetic code. For more on methylation see http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/001692.html I know fish hobbyists try to find good foods for their fish but in the old days more of the serious hobbyists (or so I've been told) fed live and fed varieties of cultured or collected foods. These days food is really convenient and dried in various pellets and flakes but there's a limit to the amount of the more fragile nutrients that they can maintain in those long shelf-life foods. Even the frozen foods can lose some nutritional value over time as oils do slowly go rancid. That's not even including all the health effects of the preservatives and artificial coloring, etc. that is added, which can also cause a kind of negative methylation, meaning covering up part of the DNA so it is not expressed or allowing parts of DNA that are counter to the health of the fish to express themselves - cancer, for instance is part of the DNA that should be sitting quiet suddenly causing out of control growth. The fragile nutrients include fat-soluble forms of vitamins A, D, K, E, along with Omega 3, the phytochemicals that haven't even been studied plus various enzymes. Dr. Pottenger did studies of cats and diet and found huge differences in their physical form based on diets that turned out to be deficient in choline and vitamin K. Cats fed raw organ meats from grass-fed animals, or even raw milk from grass-fed cows showed superior development and their offspring were mellower and better parents. If you lived in a climate where you could let your angelfish live outdoors all year long, would it reach its full potential size, or would its offspring? That's a completely different matter than what is being discussed here as far as genetics. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > I think that if you look at the man developed strains of many species, you > will find differences in them from the wild stock. Many of those strains > seem to be more "fragile" than wild types. Even something that seems as > simple as a color and/or pattern variation, or a fin modification can lead > to problems not seen before in the species. > > One good example may be the round bodied goldfish varieties. Problems seen > in them are digestion problems and swim bladder problems. These problems may > well be caused by the reorganization of the organs within the body to > accommodate the shape of the fish. > > Developed black varieties have their own set of problems. They seem to be > more susceptible to health problems than others, and are very prone to > cancer, especially the closer to true black they are. The problem here seems > to be that the melanophores that produce the black appear to be prone to > becoming malignant cells than other pigment producers. > > The list can go on and on. One thing that also seems to be fairly common is > that highly developed strains will also have a smaller overall size than the > wild types of that species. > > All this has to do with genetics, which is a far more complex topic than > those Punnett Squares you may have done in high school would make it seem. > There are genes that will express a characteristic by themselves. There are > other genes that act on genes to cause them to express a characteristic in a > specific way and yet possibly another set of genes that cause the same > characteristic to be expressed a different way > > \\Steve// > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51003	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its victims. The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium stores. Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 people. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51004	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: all fried up.

Hello: Congratulations. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 9:50:46 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] all fried up. woo hoo.. i had given up on getting younguns this time and had chalked it up to first spawning jitters on the male corries part. the eggs in the tank dissapeared days ago...eaten probbably. a week and a half post spawn i had also given up on the 6 eggs i separated. ... i look in the container this morning and theres 6 of them wiggilin around in there....guess i should boil an egg... :- )>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51005	From: Ray	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

I guess the moral of this story is that when getting the itch to get into the aquarium hobby, don't go with salt water but go freshwater instead < g >. So, how does this toxin compare with those of the Stonefish, Gila Monster, Scorpionfish/Lionfish or the Fer-De-Lance? For that matter, where does the Scorpion itself rate, or the Coral Snake, i.e., what is the MOST deadliest organism if this zoanthid is the second? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ > http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm > > World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you > > In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. > > The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. > > Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. > > The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. > > Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its victims. > > The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium stores. > > Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 people. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51006	From: Ray	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish of the Week: Swallower

Having been meaning to add commentary to this thread for several weeks, and am adding to it at this juncture even though the next weekly "installment" is imminent. A few weeks ago, I received a reminder of one of the most unusual fish ever discovered, in a recent article in the journal, "Science News," which I receive but which I had misplaced. The original article was published in "Science News" in 1998. I'm sure many members here are at least somewhat familiar with the prehistoric fish -- the Coelacanth (Latimeria chalumnae) -- which was considered long extinct until one was discovered a few days before Christmas in 1937 off the east coast of South Africa, having been caught at the mouth of the Chalumna River. Subsequent specimens have been caught off the Comoro Islands near Madagascar. What some members may not know is that there has been a second species of Coelacanth discovered in Indonesia, as reported by "Science News." In July, 1997, Dr. Mark Erdmann with his newly married wife on their honeymoon saw and photographed a specimem being wheeled into the local market. With the Smithsonian and National Geographic Magazine picking up on this, they funded Dr. Erdmann's further studies and hoped-for future collection(s) of this fish in that area. On July 30, 1998, another Coelacanth was caught in North Sulawesi, Indonesia, off Manado Bay near the Bunaken National Marine Park by a fisherman known as Justinas Lahama and his son, who delivered this fish to Dr. Erdmann (other specimens have been caught since then). Through DNA studies, and as suspected, this turns out to be an entirely new population of Coelacanth -- even as it's an entirely new species of Coelacanth -- Latimeria menadoensis. There are now two living Coelacanth species living in the world today, that we know of. These two prehistoric species go back 100 million years! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3780&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_1_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Swallower&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3bzneqt > > [Photos available at site. scs] > > Weird fish of the week: Swallower > > In our search for piscine peculiarity we plunge back into the darkness of the ocean's abyss as we take a look at the sinisterly monickered Black or Great swallower, Chiasmodon niger. > > On first inspection these fish look little different to many others found lurking in the deep ocean's darkness. At around 25cm/10" long it's certainly not a giant and neither is it covered in flashy photophores or endowed with eyes the size of dinner plates - instead it looks a bit like a slightly sickly haddock which has accidentally got a set of Halloween plastic vampire teeth stuck in its mouth. > > It's a closer inspection of this dentition and the jaws which contain it that unlock the weirdness of this fish and explain its common and scientific names. > > Both the upper and lower, prognathous jaws are filled with long, interlocking backward pointing teeth, the first few of which are especially long meaning any prey caught is unlikely to wriggle free. > > The species scientific name eludes to this, Chiasmodon coming from the Greek words for 'cross' and 'teeth'. > > These jaws are remarkably extendable with both upper and lower jaws articulated, allowing the fish to open its mouth in a huge gape to swallow larger prey and this it certainly does. > > The fish isn't sometimes called the Great swallower without reason as it has a massively distensible stomach in which it can hold and digest prey over twice its own body length and around ten times its own mass. > > It has been speculated that the fish manages this by 'walking' its jaws along its victim in the manner of a snake until it is squeezed coiled into the swallower's belly. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51007	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: all fried up.

How exciting! you must be well pleased, good luck with them. John*<o)))< * On 10 April 2011 04:04, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > > > Hello: > Congratulations. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 9:50:46 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] all fried up. > > > woo hoo.. i had given up on getting younguns this time and had chalked it > up to > first spawning jitters on the male corries part. > the eggs in the tank dissapeared days ago...eaten probbably. > a week and a half post spawn i had also given up on the 6 eggs i separated. > ... i look in the container this morning and theres 6 of them wiggilin > around in > there....guess i should boil an egg... :- )>>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51008	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

From the comments below the remainder of the article, there is this bit " the number one is maitotoxin, produced by a marine dinoflagellate (type of plankton) called Gambierdiscus toxicus. It has an LD50 of 50ng/kg, making it six times more potent than palytoxin." This refers only to naturally occurring poisons, not manmade poisons. This would mean that those toxins you listed are all less toxic, when comparing the dosage needed for an adverse effect, than palytoxin. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 7:00 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you I guess the moral of this story is that when getting the itch to get into the aquarium hobby, don't go with salt water but go freshwater instead < g >. So, how does this toxin compare with those of the Stonefish, Gila Monster, Scorpionfish/Lionfish or the Fer-De-Lance? For that matter, where does the Scorpion itself rate, or the Coral Snake, i.e., what is the MOST deadliest organism if this zoanthid is the second? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99 s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ > http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm > > World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you > > In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. > > The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. > > Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. > > The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. > > Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its victims. > > The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium stores. > > Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 people. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51009	From: joe t	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

Thanks, \\Steve//. That was very interesting. LOL, just when you think you are dealing with a "safe" hobby! LOL

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51010	From: Dora Smith	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

Did he never hear of chlorox? Brother! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 4:47 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its victims. The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium stores. Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 people. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve// ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51011	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3803&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_8_2011&utm_term=Tiny_aquarium_holds_just_10ml_of_water!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/6zf4b2q [Video available on site. scs] Tiny aquarium holds just 10ml of water! It brings a whole new meaning to the term 'nano tank'! Measuring just 30 x 24 x 14mm, this aquarium can fit into the palm of your hand - and houses live fish! Created by Russian artist Anatoly Konenko, this miniature is claimed to be the world's smallest aquarium and you can watch it being set up on the video below: In 1981 Anatoly Konenko began to pursue the art of micro-miniature and within a short period had invented and mastered the technology of writing on rice, poppy seed, then a human hair. Along with his son Stanislas, they now create a whole host of miniature versions from books to fish tanks, ships in bottles and a full chessboard with playing pieces. You can find out more about Konenko's inventions on his own website. Published: Maria Grogan Thursday 7 April 2011, 12:03 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51012	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/10/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Frilled shark

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3806&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_8_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Frilled_shark&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/6ccqllg [Videos available at site. scs] Weird fish of the week: Frilled shark This week's weird fish caused a sensation back in January 2007, when video footage was released of a strange, snake like shark found swimming off the coast of Japan by a local fisherman. The bizarre, alien looking fish featured was described on TV reports as a "living fossil" and its weirdness was enhanced by its oddly arched body shape, languid swimming style and gaping mouth filled with equally bizarre looking teeth. It was captured and taken to a nearby marine park but unfortunately died shortly afterwards. Experts identified the fish as a Frilled shark, Chlamydoselachus anguineus. The species is a relatively scare and seldom seen deep sea shark which usually only appears as by-catch from deep sea trawlers so has hardly ever been seen alive, but the images flashed across the world from this discovery are not exactly a true picture of this odd shark as the fish shown is clearly sick and near death. You can see the video footage below: Despite these reservations they are still a good candidate for weirdness. Their long, almost eel-like bodies are not typical of what most people would consider shark-shaped and give them a look something like a stretched dog fish (Scyliorhinidae). Their dorsal fin is small and situated far back near the tail, which is itself lacking the caudal notch associated with sharks. They have exceptionally long jaws which are terminally positioned, rather than underslung like in the majority of shark species. These jaws are filled with lines of fine, tricuspid (three pointed), teeth. This combination of large mouth and fine teeth is believed to help them eat large prey, which once in the shark's mouth is unable to wriggle out again because of this hook-like dentition. Stomach contents of captured specimens have shown that they appear to largely eat squid, fish and other smaller sharks. They get their common name from their distinctive frilly gill structure which is also a clue to their ancient lineage as they have six gill openings while 'modern' sharks have only five. Their scientific name is equally descriptive, 'chlamys' being Greek for cape/tunic/frilly and 'selachos' for shark, while 'anguineus' is from the Latin for snake-like. Frilled sharks grow to around 2m maximum, with females being larger than males. They are aplacental viviparous, the embryo's living inside eggs and hatching inside the mother at around 8cm then living off their yolk sac and also possibly gaining further nutrition in unknown ways from their mother until they are born at around 50cm long. Litters are typically between two and 15. It has been speculated that the gestation period may last as long as three and a half years which would make it the longest of any vertebrate. This slow reproduction in combination with very limited knowledge of the species and an increase in deep water fishing has led them to be listed as 'Near Threatened' on the IUCN red list for endangered species. In 2009 an ROV operating on the Blake Plateau off the south-eastern United States captured the first footage of the frilled shark in its natural environment which gives a better insight into how these fish look when alive and well. A second, smaller species of frilled shark, Chlamydoselachus africana was described in 2009 and is found off the coast of southern Africa. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51013	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

Hello: I do believe Box Jellyfish have the most toxic poison but I'm not completely sure. In snakes it's probably the inland Taipan though The Russel's Viper of India kills more people than any other snake. The Brown Snake of Australia is real bad also, and very common, Gila Monsters are actually not real bad and I don't believe there are any deathsa attributed to them. fer-de-Lance are very dangerous as they hang out in agricultural ares where they are exposed to lots of workers. There are deaths but I think part of that is because it takes a while sometimes for bite victims to get medical attention. Scorpion Fish/ Lionfish are bad but nowhere near that of some of these other animals. Scorpions (some species anyway) can be deadly but most stings are not. Again, remote bites and long trips to medical attention contribute to the problem there. An interesting side note on Scorpions; the thinner clawed ones tend to be more potent than the stings of species with large, crab-like claws. Coral Snakes are extremely dangerous though few fatalities are attributed to their bites. I used to know an old reptile dealer who free-handled corals like they were ratsnakes. He always said they didn't bite unless one tried to hurt them. I had many an interesting trip to his place as a child growing up. He was located next to one of Ross Socoloff's Breeder Farms. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, April 10, 2011 7:00:11 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you I guess the moral of this story is that when getting the itch to get into the aquarium hobby, don't go with salt water but go freshwater instead < g >. So, how does this toxin compare with those of the Stonefish, Gila Monster, Scorpionfish/Lionfish or the Fer-De-Lance? For that matter, where does the Scorpion itself rate, or the Coral Snake, i.e., what is the MOST deadliest organism if this zoanthid is the second? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > >http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ >/ > http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm > > World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you > > In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after >inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. >He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard >laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. > > The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get >rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was >infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the >trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. > > Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours >later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By >the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. >He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to >use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. > > The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and >the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will >kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling >water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. > > Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in >Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow >villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a >tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed >started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly >seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its >victims. > > The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich >and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a >new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, >but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard >Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's >lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug >Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium >stores. > > Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about >Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of >the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It >wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three >aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave >Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more >poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 >people. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51014	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!

How can anyone be amused by such cruel treatment to an animal? Thats not art... its sick! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3803&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_8_2011&utm_term=Tiny_aquarium_holds_just_10ml_of_water!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/6zf4b2q > > [Video available on site. scs] > > Tiny aquarium holds just 10ml of water! > > It brings a whole new meaning to the term 'nano tank'! Measuring just 30 x 24 x 14mm, this aquarium can fit into the palm of your hand - and houses live fish! > > Created by Russian artist Anatoly Konenko, this miniature is claimed to be the world's smallest aquarium and you can watch it being set up on the video below: > > > In 1981 Anatoly Konenko began to pursue the art of micro-miniature and within a short period had invented and mastered the technology of writing on rice, poppy seed, then a human hair. > > Along with his son Stanislas, they now create a whole host of miniature versions from books to fish tanks, ships in bottles and a full chessboard with playing pieces. You can find out more about Konenko's inventions on his own website. > > Published: Maria Grogan Thursday 7 April 2011, 12:03 pm > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51015	From: Dax Gorham	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks!

some people never learn and animals suffer as a result! Daniel John Gorham daxgor@... http://www.geocities.com/daxgor --- On Mon, 4/11/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tiny Aquarium or The Nano Tank of Nano Tanks! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 11, 2011, 12:44 PM   How can anyone be amused by such cruel treatment to an animal? Thats not art... its sick! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3803&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_8_2011&utm_term=Tiny_aquarium_holds_just_10ml_of_water!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/6zf4b2q > > [Video available on site. scs] > > Tiny aquarium holds just 10ml of water! > > It brings a whole new meaning to the term 'nano tank'! Measuring just 30 x 24 x 14mm, this aquarium can fit into the palm of your hand - and houses live fish! > > Created by Russian artist Anatoly Konenko, this miniature is claimed to be the world's smallest aquarium and you can watch it being set up on the video below: > > > In 1981 Anatoly Konenko began to pursue the art of micro-miniature and within a short period had invented and mastered the technology of writing on rice, poppy seed, then a human hair. > > Along with his son Stanislas, they now create a whole host of miniature versions from books to fish tanks, ships in bottles and a full chessboard with playing pieces. You can find out more about Konenko's inventions on his own website. > > Published: Maria Grogan Thursday 7 April 2011, 12:03 pm > > \\Steve// > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51016	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you

There is no doubt that other poisons may have killed in larger numbers, however, that is not the point here. The point was that palytoxin is more deadly for the amount of this toxin needed to case death. The figure is 50 nl (that's nanoliters not the TLD for the Netherlands) and the most toxic (I do not recall the name right now, only requires 3 nl. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john Lewis Sent: Monday, April 11, 2011 3:27 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you Hello: I do believe Box Jellyfish have the most toxic poison but I'm not completely sure. In snakes it's probably the inland Taipan though The Russel's Viper of India kills more people than any other snake. The Brown Snake of Australia is real bad also, and very common, Gila Monsters are actually not real bad and I don't believe there are any deathsa attributed to them. fer-de-Lance are very dangerous as they hang out in agricultural ares where they are exposed to lots of workers. There are deaths but I think part of that is because it takes a while sometimes for bite victims to get medical attention. Scorpion Fish/ Lionfish are bad but nowhere near that of some of these other animals. Scorpions (some species anyway) can be deadly but most stings are not. Again, remote bites and long trips to medical attention contribute to the problem there. An interesting side note on Scorpions; the thinner clawed ones tend to be more potent than the stings of species with large, crab-like claws. Coral Snakes are extremely dangerous though few fatalities are attributed to their bites. I used to know an old reptile dealer who free-handled corals like they were ratsnakes. He always said they didn't bite unless one tried to hurt them. I had many an interesting trip to his place as a child growing up. He was located next to one of Ross Socoloff's Breeder Farms. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, April 10, 2011 7:00:11 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you I guess the moral of this story is that when getting the itch to get into the aquarium hobby, don't go with salt water but go freshwater instead < g >. So, how does this toxin compare with those of the Stonefish, Gila Monster, Scorpionfish/Lionfish or the Fer-De-Lance? For that matter, where does the Scorpion itself rate, or the Coral Snake, i.e., what is the MOST deadliest organism if this zoanthid is the second? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > >http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2011/04/05/world%E2%80%99s-2nd-deadliest-poison-in-an-aquarium-store-near-you/ >/ > http://tinyurl.com/3kywvlm > > World's 2nd deadliest poison, in an aquarium store near you > > In 2007, a man from Woodbridge, Virginia was rushed into hospital after >inhaling an aerosolised version of one of the deadliest poisons on the planet. >He was not the victim of a terrorist attack. He wasn't working in a biohazard >laboratory. He was trying to clean out his fish tank. > > The man, who posts on the Reef Central Forums as Steveoutlaw, was trying to get >rid of a colony of zoanthids - a relative of corals and sea anemones - that was >infesting his aquarium rocks. He had heard that boiling water would do the >trick. When he tried it, he accidentally inhaled some of the steam. > > Twenty minutes later, his nose was running and he had a cough. Four hours >later, his breathing was laboured and he was headed to the emergency room. By >the time he arrived, he was suffering from severe coughing fits and chest pains. >He was stabilised, but he developed asthma and a persistent cough, and had to >use steroids and an inhaler for at least two months. > > The reason for his sudden illness was palytoxin, a speciality of zoanthids, and >the second deadliest poison in the natural world. One gram of the stuff will >kill more than a hundred million mice. This poison, liberated by the boiling >water, had risen into Steveoutlaw's airways in a cloud of steam. > > Palytoxin is shrouded in legend. Hawaiian islanders tell of a cursed village in >Maui, whose members defied a shark god that had been eating their fellow >villagers. They dismembered and burned the god, before scattering his ashes in a >tide pool near the town of Hana. Shortly after, a mysterious type of seaweed >started growing in the pool. It became known as "limu-make-o-Hana" (deadly >seaweed of Hana). If smeared on a spear's point, it could instantly kill its >victims. > > The shark god may have been an elaborate fiction, but in 1961, Philip Helfrich >and John Shupe actually found the legendary pool. Within it, they discovered a >new species of zoanthid called Palythoa toxica. The limu-make-o-Hana was real, >but it wasn't seaweed - it was a type of colonial anemone. In 1971, Richard >Moore and Paul Scheuer isolated the chemical responsible for the zoanthid's >lethal powers - palytoxin. Now, Jonathan Deeds from the US Food and Drug >Administration has found that the poison is readily available in aquarium >stores. > > Deeds was investigating a case of palytoxin poisoning when he heard about >Steveoutlaw's unfortunate incident. He visited the man, collected a sample of >the offending zoanthid, and found that it was indeed heavy with palytoxin. It >wasn't hard to get his hands on more. Deeds bought 15 more colonies from three >aquarium stores in the Washington DC area, of the same species that gave >Steveoutlaw his whiff of toxic steam. Three of the samples yielded even more >poison. Every gram contained enough palytoxin to kill 300,000 mice, or around 80 >people. > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51017	From: Koi Naturals Food	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: New to Group

Hello all.I love Koi.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51018	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Comet Finnage Problem

Hi Everyone, Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long overall length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays & has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but they always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has a red inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the tail to fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I tried using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also taken a small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic evidence. My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank over approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 days with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture of 4mm floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green veggies & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or flicking & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm sure he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are this is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with all my 5 Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never get smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying problem just for my own peace of mind. John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51019	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

What other fish do you have in this 109 gallon tank besides this huge comet? I would first recommend finding someone with a pond for him, not a fish tank. If you are keeping this 109 gallon over stocked this would easily cause fin and tail rot issues. Comets should really only be kept in a pond, they will often have health issues if you try to keep them in a large fish tank, even temporarily. Amber On 4/11/2011 3:16 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long overall > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays & > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but they > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has > a red > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the > tail to > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > tried > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > taken a > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic evidence. > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank > over > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 days > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture > of 4mm > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > veggies > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > flicking > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm sure > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are > this > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with > all my 5 > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never get > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51020	From: William M	Date: 4/11/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

ddI have heard that goldfish like the comet and and other single tailed goldfish should have about 100 gallons per fish to be able to grow properly. At 8 years old the comet should be much larger (up to 18 inches long. Even with your frequent water changes the bioload is too much for your tank. I think tha it is time for the goldfish to be put into a large pond and maybe only one or two of the goldfish be kept in your tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > What other fish do you have in this 109 gallon tank besides this huge > comet? I would first recommend finding someone with a pond for him, not > a fish tank. If you are keeping this 109 gallon over stocked this would > easily cause fin and tail rot issues. > Comets should really only be kept in a pond, they will often have health > issues if you try to keep them in a large fish tank, even temporarily. > > Amber > > On 4/11/2011 3:16 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long overall > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays & > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but they > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has > > a red > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the > > tail to > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > > tried > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > > taken a > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic evidence. > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank > > over > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 days > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture > > of 4mm > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > > veggies > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > > flicking > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm sure > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are > > this > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with > > all my 5 > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never get > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51021	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/12/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets and fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is causing the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the environment or water quality, or a combination of things. From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there is an infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age of the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal damage due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and can lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in spite of even perfect care. At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which if you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is no need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it and be sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a preventive. I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with normal organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if there is an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, which will cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have seen liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys are not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain vitamins and minerals. That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to it let me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food stand to dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the kanamycin, soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The Zoe is liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more specific instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I will walk you through it. Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? It sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality looks to be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is only 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, plenty of oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from each other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal of stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and there is no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of medication treatment.) Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long overall > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays & > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but they > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has a red > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the tail to > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I tried > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also taken a > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic evidence. > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank over > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 days > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture of 4mm > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green veggies > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or flicking > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm sure > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are this > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with all my 5 > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never get > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51022	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/12/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about & act on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including tail: 4 x Comets 1 x Sarassa 1 x Blue Carp 1 x Crucian Carp 2 x Commons In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose approx 3 inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae wafers & cucumber on a regular basis. William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 indicates everything is fine with my water. Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in question was rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life in an unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the stunting problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of years to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen badly stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted bodies yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the time. Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything useful is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can buy many products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand so there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. How long would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY meal for him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any specific amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just coat the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon as possible. I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last 6 months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the salt simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank just now will be barely background levels. Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is that one ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it will be available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest anything similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder that I mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. One of my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but there is usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig out of the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not that much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth acrylic tunnel that gets plenty of use. Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the bio filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" cubic area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam for polishing the water before returning to the tank. I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters told me otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they have grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I really should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I liked the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all I can to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with excellent water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements to rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for starters. John*<o)))<* On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets and > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is causing > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the environment or > water quality, or a combination of things. > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there is an > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age of > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal damage > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and can > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in spite > of even perfect care. > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which if > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is no > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it and be > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a > preventive. > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with normal > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if there is > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, which will > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have seen > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys are > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain > vitamins and minerals. > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to it let > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food stand to > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the kanamycin, > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The Zoe is > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more specific > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I will walk > you through it. > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? It > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality looks to > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is only > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, plenty of > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from each > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal of > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and there is > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of medication > treatment.) > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long > overall > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays > & > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but > they > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has a > red > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the tail > to > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > tried > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > taken a > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > evidence. > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank > over > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 > days > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture of > 4mm > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > veggies > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > flicking > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm > sure > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are > this > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with all > my 5 > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never > get > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51023	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/13/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a link to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship international. http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent Marine products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through their site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. I know most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip lock baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder is on the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is still powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is on the food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into the food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being washed away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and letting it dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in the fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that can be a permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities at a time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long way. Once the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, then scoop it back into the container.) I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about & act > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including tail: > > 4 x Comets > 1 x Sarassa > 1 x Blue Carp > 1 x Crucian Carp > 2 x Commons > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose approx 3 > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae wafers & > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 indicates > everything is fine with my water. > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in question was > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life in an > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the stunting > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of years > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen badly > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted bodies > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the time. > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything useful > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can buy many > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand so > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. How long > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY meal for > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any specific > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just coat > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon as > possible. > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last 6 > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the salt > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank just > now will be barely background levels. > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is that one > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it will be > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest anything > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder that I > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. One of > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but there is > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig out of > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not that > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth acrylic > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the bio > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" cubic > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam for > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters told me > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they have > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I really > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I liked > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all I can > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with excellent > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements to > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for starters. > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets and > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is causing > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the environment or > > water quality, or a combination of things. > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there is an > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age of > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal damage > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and can > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in spite > > of even perfect care. > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which if > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is no > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it and be > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a > > preventive. > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with normal > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if there is > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, which will > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have seen > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys are > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain > > vitamins and minerals. > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to it let > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food stand to > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the kanamycin, > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The Zoe is > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more specific > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I will walk > > you through it. > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? It > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality looks to > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is only > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, plenty of > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from each > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal of > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and there is > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of medication > > treatment.) > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long > > overall > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse ragged > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin rays > > & > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but > > they > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split after a > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has a > > red > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the tail > > to > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been pinkish > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically treating > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > > tried > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum injections > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > > taken a > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > > evidence. > > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 Gallon > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the tank > > over > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a sub > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there are 9 > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 > > days > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 feet > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture of > > 4mm > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > > veggies > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > > flicking > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm > > sure > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground prize > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts are > > this > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with all > > my 5 > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] never > > get > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible solutions > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51024	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/13/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Hi Dawn, Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder is an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local store came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, if not I'm sure they can order me some. I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get the Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will let you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of my fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. John*<o)))<* On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a link > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship international. > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent Marine > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through their > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. I know > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip lock > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder is on > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is still > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is on the > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into the > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being washed > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and letting it > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in the > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that can be a > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities at a > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long way. Once > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, then > scoop it back into the container.) > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about & > act > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including > tail: > > > > 4 x Comets > > 1 x Sarassa > > 1 x Blue Carp > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > 2 x Commons > > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose approx > 3 > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae wafers & > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > indicates > > everything is fine with my water. > > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in question > was > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life in > an > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the stunting > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > years > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > badly > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted bodies > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the time. > > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > useful > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can buy > many > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand so > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. How > long > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY meal > for > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any specific > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just > coat > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon as > > possible. > > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last 6 > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the salt > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank just > > now will be barely background levels. > > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is that > one > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it will be > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest anything > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder that > I > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. One > of > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but there > is > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig out > of > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not that > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth acrylic > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the bio > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" cubic > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam for > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters told me > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they > have > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I really > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I > liked > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all I > can > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > excellent > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements to > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for starters. > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets > and > > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is > causing > > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the environment > or > > > water quality, or a combination of things. > > > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there > is an > > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age > of > > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal > damage > > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and > can > > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in > spite > > > of even perfect care. > > > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which > if > > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is > no > > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it > and be > > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a > > > preventive. > > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with normal > > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if there > is > > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, which > will > > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have seen > > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys > are > > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain > > > vitamins and minerals. > > > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to it > let > > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food > stand to > > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the > kanamycin, > > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The > Zoe is > > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more > specific > > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I will > walk > > > you through it. > > > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? > It > > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality > looks to > > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is > only > > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, plenty > of > > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from > each > > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal > of > > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and > there is > > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of > medication > > > treatment.) > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long > > > overall > > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse > ragged > > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin > rays > > > & > > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but > > > they > > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split > after a > > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has > a > > > red > > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the > tail > > > to > > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been > pinkish > > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically > treating > > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > > > tried > > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum > injections > > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > > > taken a > > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > > > evidence. > > > > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 > Gallon > > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the > tank > > > over > > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a > sub > > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there > are 9 > > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 > > > days > > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 > feet > > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture > of > > > 4mm > > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > > > veggies > > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > > > flicking > > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm > > > sure > > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground > prize > > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts > are > > > this > > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with > all > > > my 5 > > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] > never > > > get > > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible > solutions > > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51025	From: Karlene T	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: ~

Hi All! I'm so glad this group is here. I haven't had an aquarium in over 15 years, so this all feels new to me again. I purchased a 20 gallon aquarium and set it up with treated tap water. I rinsed the gravel well when I put it in, and rinsed the decor as well. I set it up and let it start doing it's thing, and a few hours later (yes, stupid) brought home fish to add (stupid), a lot of fish (even more stupid.) I started with 2 dwarf gouramis, 3 lyretail mollies, a pair of swordfish, a pleco (they said it was fine to have a pleco as long as you added algea tabs), a cory cat, 2 ghost shrimp, and angelfish that died on the way home (I think the bags were too full), 4 neon tetras (so they could school) and several platies. I also moved my betta over from his tiny tank into the big one. I let the bags float awhile, then added the fish to the tank. The next morning (yesterday) I awoke to a very cloudy tank and several dead fish. Overnight I lost the pleco, all the neons and one molly. This morning, the tank is still cloudy, and another molly and one of the platies are dead. Is there anything I can do to clear up the cloudiness and save my poor fish? They are dying due to my stupidity, I know. I wondered if a partial water change would help them or hurt them, or if I should add something to the tank. I tested the water in a couple of places. First place used a kit with tubes and things they dripped in, and my water looked fine. Second place used the little strips (on the same water) and said my ammonia was high. Which is more reliable, the strips or the drips? Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ~Karlene

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51026	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Hi Dawn, I started his treatment today with the Kanamycin powder coating the 4mm pellets-great method with the baggie! I cannot find the Zoe anywhere locally although they can order it will take up to 2 weeks which is not really any use. I will phone round farther afield tomorrow see if I can turn some up-if not can I use another vitamin supplement? My local store have this one in stock: http://www.arkpetsonline.co.uk/waterlife-vitazin-120ml-p-1418.html if you think it is ok then I can get it tomorrow no problem & order the Zoe for the future. In the meantime for today's dose I have simply soaked the pellets in water that has been boiled & cooled-is that ok until I find a suitable vitamin supplement? John*<o)))< * On 13 April 2011 23:27, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > Hi Dawn, > > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder is > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local store > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, if > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get the > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will let > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of my > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > > John*<o)))<* > > > > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > wrote: > >> >> >> John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a >> link to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship >> international. >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 >> >> If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try >> checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent >> Marine products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through >> their site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. >> I know most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. >> >> In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip >> lock baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder is >> on the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is >> still powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is >> on the food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into >> the food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being >> washed away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and >> letting it dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. >> >> I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in the >> fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that can be a >> permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities at a >> time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long way. Once >> the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, then >> scoop it back into the container.) >> >> I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. >> >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> >> wrote: >> > >> > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about & >> act >> > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. >> > >> > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including >> tail: >> > >> > 4 x Comets >> > 1 x Sarassa >> > 1 x Blue Carp >> > 1 x Crucian Carp >> > 2 x Commons >> > >> > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose approx >> 3 >> > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae wafers >> & >> > cucumber on a regular basis. >> > >> > >> > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 >> indicates >> > everything is fine with my water. >> > >> > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in question >> was >> > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life in >> an >> > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the stunting >> > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of >> years >> > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen >> badly >> > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted >> bodies >> > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the time. >> > >> > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything >> useful >> > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can buy >> many >> > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have >> > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand so >> > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. How >> long >> > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY meal >> for >> > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any specific >> > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just >> coat >> > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon as >> > possible. >> > >> > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last 6 >> > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the salt >> > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank >> just >> > now will be barely background levels. >> > >> > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is that >> one >> > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it will >> be >> > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest >> anything >> > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder that >> I >> > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. >> > >> > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. One >> of >> > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon >> > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but there >> is >> > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig out >> of >> > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not that >> > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth >> acrylic >> > tunnel that gets plenty of use. >> > >> > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water >> > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the bio >> > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" cubic >> > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam for >> > polishing the water before returning to the tank. >> > >> > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters told >> me >> > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they >> have >> > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I really >> > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I >> liked >> > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all I >> can >> > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with >> excellent >> > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements to >> > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for starters. >> > >> > John*<o)))<* >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets >> and >> > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is >> causing >> > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the >> environment or >> > > water quality, or a combination of things. >> > > >> > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there >> is an >> > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age >> of >> > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal >> damage >> > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and >> can >> > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in >> spite >> > > of even perfect care. >> > > >> > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which >> if >> > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is >> no >> > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it >> and be >> > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no >> > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a >> > > preventive. >> > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with >> normal >> > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if >> there is >> > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, >> which will >> > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have >> seen >> > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys >> are >> > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain >> > > vitamins and minerals. >> > > >> > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin >> > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to >> it let >> > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food >> stand to >> > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the >> kanamycin, >> > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The >> Zoe is >> > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more >> specific >> > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I >> will walk >> > > you through it. >> > > >> > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? >> It >> > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality >> looks to >> > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is >> only >> > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, >> plenty of >> > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from >> each >> > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal >> of >> > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. >> > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and >> there is >> > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of >> medication >> > > treatment.) >> > > >> > > Dawn >> > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Hi Everyone, >> > > > >> > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an >> > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long >> > > overall >> > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse >> ragged >> > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin >> rays >> > > & >> > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time >> but >> > > they >> > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split >> after a >> > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that >> has a >> > > red >> > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the >> tail >> > > to >> > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been >> pinkish >> > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. >> > > > >> > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically >> treating >> > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. >> I >> > > tried >> > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum >> injections >> > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also >> > > taken a >> > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results >> > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic >> > > evidence. >> > > > >> > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 >> Gallon >> > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the >> tank >> > > over >> > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a >> sub >> > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there >> are 9 >> > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every >> 3-4 >> > > days >> > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 >> feet >> > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a >> mixture of >> > > 4mm >> > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green >> > > veggies >> > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. >> > > > >> > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or >> > > flicking >> > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so >> I'm >> > > sure >> > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground >> prize >> > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts >> are >> > > this >> > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with >> all >> > > my 5 >> > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the >> 4 >> > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] >> never >> > > get >> > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible >> solutions >> > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this >> annoying >> > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. >> > > > >> > > > John*<o)))< >> > > > >> > > > * >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51027	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start the meds anytime. Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. Best of luck to you and your fish! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder is > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local store > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, if > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get the > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will let > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of my > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > > John*<o)))<* > > > > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > > > > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a link > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship international. > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > > > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent Marine > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through their > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. I know > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > > > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip lock > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder is on > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is still > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is on the > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into the > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being washed > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and letting it > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > > > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in the > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that can be a > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities at a > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long way. Once > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, then > > scoop it back into the container.) > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about & > > act > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > > > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including > > tail: > > > > > > 4 x Comets > > > 1 x Sarassa > > > 1 x Blue Carp > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > > 2 x Commons > > > > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose approx > > 3 > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae wafers & > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > > > > > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > > indicates > > > everything is fine with my water. > > > > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in question > > was > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life in > > an > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the stunting > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > > years > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > > badly > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted bodies > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the time. > > > > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > > useful > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can buy > > many > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand so > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. How > > long > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY meal > > for > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any specific > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just > > coat > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon as > > > possible. > > > > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last 6 > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the salt > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank just > > > now will be barely background levels. > > > > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is that > > one > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it will be > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest anything > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder that > > I > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > > > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. One > > of > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but there > > is > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig out > > of > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not that > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth acrylic > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > > > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the bio > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" cubic > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam for > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > > > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters told me > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they > > have > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I really > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I > > liked > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all I > > can > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > > excellent > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements to > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for starters. > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both comets > > and > > > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is > > causing > > > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the environment > > or > > > > water quality, or a combination of things. > > > > > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like there > > is an > > > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the age > > of > > > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely internal > > damage > > > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, and > > can > > > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, in > > spite > > > > of even perfect care. > > > > > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, which > > if > > > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There is > > no > > > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with it > > and be > > > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > > > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as a > > > > preventive. > > > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with normal > > > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if there > > is > > > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, which > > will > > > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have seen > > > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or kidneys > > are > > > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing certain > > > > vitamins and minerals. > > > > > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > > > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link to it > > let > > > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food > > stand to > > > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the > > kanamycin, > > > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. The > > Zoe is > > > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more > > specific > > > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I will > > walk > > > > you through it. > > > > > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank overstocked? > > It > > > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality > > looks to > > > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that is > > only > > > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, plenty > > of > > > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from > > each > > > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great deal > > of > > > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > > > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and > > there is > > > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of > > medication > > > > treatment.) > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on an > > > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" long > > > > overall > > > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse > > ragged > > > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his fin > > rays > > > > & > > > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time but > > > > they > > > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split > > after a > > > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that has > > a > > > > red > > > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause the > > tail > > > > to > > > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been > > pinkish > > > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > > > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically > > treating > > > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP swabs. I > > > > tried > > > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum > > injections > > > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has also > > > > taken a > > > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the results > > > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > > > > evidence. > > > > > > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 > > Gallon > > > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the > > tank > > > > over > > > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on a > > sub > > > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot there > > are 9 > > > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every 3-4 > > > > days > > > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & 8 > > feet > > > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a mixture > > of > > > > 4mm > > > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, green > > > > veggies > > > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > > > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing or > > > > flicking > > > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so I'm > > > > sure > > > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued fairground > > prize > > > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My thoughts > > are > > > > this > > > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that with > > all > > > > my 5 > > > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet the 4 > > > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] > > never > > > > get > > > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible > > solutions > > > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this annoying > > > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51028	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Hi Karlene, Firstly I'm not a tropical keeper so cannot give you any specific advice but my gut instinct would be to return all of the survivors to the store asap before you loose any more. You might want to read up on fishless cycling before you set another tank up. Sorry you lost your fish. John*<o)))< * On 14 April 2011 18:07, Karlene T <tarkom@...> wrote: > > > Hi All! > > I'm so glad this group is here. I haven't had an aquarium in over 15 years, > so this all feels new to me again. > > I purchased a 20 gallon aquarium and set it up with treated tap water. I > rinsed the gravel well when I put it in, and rinsed the decor as well. I set > it up and let it start doing it's thing, and a few hours later (yes, stupid) > brought home fish to add (stupid), a lot of fish (even more stupid.) > > I started with 2 dwarf gouramis, 3 lyretail mollies, a pair of swordfish, a > pleco (they said it was fine to have a pleco as long as you added algea > tabs), a cory cat, 2 ghost shrimp, and angelfish that died on the way home > (I think the bags were too full), 4 neon tetras (so they could school) and > several platies. I also moved my betta over from his tiny tank into the big > one. I let the bags float awhile, then added the fish to the tank. > > The next morning (yesterday) I awoke to a very cloudy tank and several dead > fish. Overnight I lost the pleco, all the neons and one molly. This morning, > the tank is still cloudy, and another molly and one of the platies are dead. > > Is there anything I can do to clear up the cloudiness and save my poor > fish? They are dying due to my stupidity, I know. I wondered if a partial > water change would help them or hurt them, or if I should add something to > the tank. > > I tested the water in a couple of places. First place used a kit with tubes > and things they dripped in, and my water looked fine. Second place used the > little strips (on the same water) and said my ammonia was high. Which is > more reliable, the strips or the drips? > > Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > ~Karlene > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51029	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

I thought of that, but sadly it isn't an option, so I have to do what I can to resolve the problem and save the remaining fish. I think that perhaps a partial water change would be the appropriate step to take, but I'm worried that might disrupt the tank trying to stabilize. I'm confused, and hoping someone here can help. ~Karlene On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:34 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: my gut instinct would be to return all of the survivors to the store asap before you loose any more. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51030	From: Eben von Bargen	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Hi Karlene if you test your water you would find your ammonia level is through the roof. they call it ammonia spike it is part of cycling the tank. I learned the hard way as well you will loose allot more. best you can try is get the fish out and in clean water that stood for a day or so. Best of luck ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, 14 April, 2011 20:19:34 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ~ I thought of that, but sadly it isn't an option, so I have to do what I can to resolve the problem and save the remaining fish. I think that perhaps a partial water change would be the appropriate step to take, but I'm worried that might disrupt the tank trying to stabilize. I'm confused, and hoping someone here can help. ~Karlene On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:34 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: my gut instinct would be to return all of the survivors to the store asap before you loose any more. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51031	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Yes Karlene you are correct. Do a partial water change then test the water for ammonia , ph and nitrite levels. Some stores offer this service free. My friend had the very same thing happen to her fish. Out of 30 she only has 2 left. She didn't allow her tank to cycle before she added all the fish. I cycled my 125 gal tank with only 4 fish so that the ammonia level wouldn't build up. These articles helped me. http://www.firsttankguide.net/newtanksyndrome.php http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_syndrome.php Gail > > I thought of that, but sadly it isn't an option, so I have to do > what I can to resolve the problem and save the remaining fish. I > think that perhaps a partial water change would be the appropriate > step to take, but I'm worried that might disrupt the tank trying to > stabilize. I'm confused, and hoping someone here can help. > > ~Karlene > > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:34 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > my gut instinct would be to return all of the survivors to the > store asap before you loose any more. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51032	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Capturing Nature

This looks pretty interesting. If you happen to be vacationing in the Nation's Capital during July, you may want to make plans to attend this event at the Smithsonian's S. Dillon Ripley Center on the National Mall. Unfortunately, it is not likely I'll be going, with the day being Tuesday, and the start time so early (for me). http://residentassociates.org/ticketing/tickets/reserve.aspx?performanceNumber=222588&utm_source=eRAP&utm_medium=email&utm_content=APR11Scie-NHB6t&utm_campaign=eAlert&tmssource=184726 http://tinyurl.com/4xnhu53 Capturing Nature Evening Lecture Tues., July 12, 6:45 to 8:15 p.m. Look over the shoulders of prominent scientists like Darwin, Schaller, and Kaufman to discover rich stories revealed by their personal field notes. Harvard lecturer Michael R. Canfield explores experts' field practices and offers the amateur new perspectives and time-honored techniques. Rusty Russell of the Field Book Project highlights treasured Smithsonian field books. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51033	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

The problem you are having is the tank is uncycled. When you first add fish they produce ammonia, which starts the cycle (starts your beneficial bacteria colony which eats the ammonia, turns it into nitrite, which another bacteria eats and produces Nitrates). Cycling a tank takes at least 4 weeks, sometimes more depending on how many fish you have and how often you do a water change. Right now you want to test for ammonia ASAP, the ammonia is the first part of the cycle and it's poisoning your fish when it builds up to lethal levels (until your bacteria grows sufficiently). Do a 10% water change right away, then I would suggest doing another one in a couple of hours (let the fish get used to the first water change before you do another, with at least an hour between the two water changes), then you're going to have to get ready to do at least one water change daily, if not more than that. Until your ammonia levels read 0, and your nitrite levels start raising (the 2nd part of the cycle). Then you will have to do the same thing you were doing for the ammonia buildup (water changes daily and test for your nitrites until they go down to 0 and your nitrates start to rise, that's when you know the cycle is fished, when ammonia and nitrites are both 0). Always do your testing before the water change. The drip tests are the most reliable test kits, I would suggest getting a Master test kit from API (which you can order through walmart.com and have shipped to your store for free local pickup), it's the cheapest way to get a master test kit. Feel free to ask more questions if you have any, this is a quite common problem for people who are new to fish tanks. Years ago no one ever talked about cycling a tank, I didn't even know it had to be done until I had the same problem you are having and I lost $300 worth of fish in a matter of a week. Sometimes we learn the hard way, I sure know I did! LOL. If you don't want to wait for your cycle the natural way; you can get Dr. Tim's One and Only which is a bacteria colony that you add to your tank, and you can add fish right away. If you order it online it will need to be shipped overnight that way the colony doesn't die off in transit (they have a shelf life). Amber - Moderator On 4/14/2011 9:07 AM, Karlene T wrote: > > Hi All! > > I'm so glad this group is here. I haven't had an aquarium in over 15 > years, so this all feels new to me again. > > I purchased a 20 gallon aquarium and set it up with treated tap water. > I rinsed the gravel well when I put it in, and rinsed the decor as > well. I set it up and let it start doing it's thing, and a few hours > later (yes, stupid) brought home fish to add (stupid), a lot of fish > (even more stupid.) > > I started with 2 dwarf gouramis, 3 lyretail mollies, a pair of > swordfish, a pleco (they said it was fine to have a pleco as long as > you added algea tabs), a cory cat, 2 ghost shrimp, and angelfish that > died on the way home (I think the bags were too full), 4 neon tetras > (so they could school) and several platies. I also moved my betta over > from his tiny tank into the big one. I let the bags float awhile, then > added the fish to the tank. > > The next morning (yesterday) I awoke to a very cloudy tank and several > dead fish. Overnight I lost the pleco, all the neons and one molly. > This morning, the tank is still cloudy, and another molly and one of > the platies are dead. > > Is there anything I can do to clear up the cloudiness and save my poor > fish? They are dying due to my stupidity, I know. I wondered if a > partial water change would help them or hurt them, or if I should add > something to the tank. > > I tested the water in a couple of places. First place used a kit with > tubes and things they dripped in, and my water looked fine. Second > place used the little strips (on the same water) and said my ammonia > was high. Which is more reliable, the strips or the drips? > > Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > ~Karlene > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51034	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Welcome to the group Karlene (forgot to say that in the last post) :) Oh I also forgot to mention that your water will change if you test it too long after removing it from the tank (for instance if you remove the water and drive to a fish store hours a way and then test it, sometimes it can change, it's best to test it right away, but sometimes that's not able to be done). Also if their reagents (the drips) were old and outdated they don't work as well (you have to shake them before every use because the ingredients settle in the bottle and it can change your test results as well, so just shaking them before every use helps keep this from happening). Just remember, right now water changes are your best friend for your surviving fish, just make sure not to change more than 25% at a time (until we know what your tap water baseline is). To do a baseline test you'll need your own test kit, let us know when you get one and we can walk you through doing your baseline tap water test. Amber On 4/14/2011 9:07 AM, Karlene T wrote: > > Hi All! > > I'm so glad this group is here. I haven't had an aquarium in over 15 > years, so this all feels new to me again. > > I purchased a 20 gallon aquarium and set it up with treated tap water. > I rinsed the gravel well when I put it in, and rinsed the decor as > well. I set it up and let it start doing it's thing, and a few hours > later (yes, stupid) brought home fish to add (stupid), a lot of fish > (even more stupid.) > > I started with 2 dwarf gouramis, 3 lyretail mollies, a pair of > swordfish, a pleco (they said it was fine to have a pleco as long as > you added algea tabs), a cory cat, 2 ghost shrimp, and angelfish that > died on the way home (I think the bags were too full), 4 neon tetras > (so they could school) and several platies. I also moved my betta over > from his tiny tank into the big one. I let the bags float awhile, then > added the fish to the tank. > > The next morning (yesterday) I awoke to a very cloudy tank and several > dead fish. Overnight I lost the pleco, all the neons and one molly. > This morning, the tank is still cloudy, and another molly and one of > the platies are dead. > > Is there anything I can do to clear up the cloudiness and save my poor > fish? They are dying due to my stupidity, I know. I wondered if a > partial water change would help them or hurt them, or if I should add > something to the tank. > > I tested the water in a couple of places. First place used a kit with > tubes and things they dripped in, and my water looked fine. Second > place used the little strips (on the same water) and said my ammonia > was high. Which is more reliable, the strips or the drips? > > Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > ~Karlene > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51035	From: Jessica	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Black kuhli loaches

Hello! I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about these guys? I was thinking of getting 1-2 to start with if I could find them. Anyone had any experience? Thanks!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51036	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. John*<o)))< * On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The > pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When > you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason > for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it > makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start > the meds anytime. > > Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even > though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build > up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice > any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few > others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. > > Best of luck to you and your fish! > > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder is > > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local > store > > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, if > > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > > > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get the > > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will let > > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of my > > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a > link > > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > international. > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > > > > > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent > Marine > > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through > their > > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. I > know > > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > > > > > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip > lock > > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder is > on > > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is > still > > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is on > the > > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into the > > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being > washed > > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and letting > it > > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > > > > > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in > the > > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that can > be a > > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities at > a > > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long way. > Once > > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, > then > > > scoop it back into the container.) > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about > & > > > act > > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > > > > > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches including > > > tail: > > > > > > > > 4 x Comets > > > > 1 x Sarassa > > > > 1 x Blue Carp > > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > > > 2 x Commons > > > > > > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose > approx > > > 3 > > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae > wafers & > > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > > > > > > > > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > > > indicates > > > > everything is fine with my water. > > > > > > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in > question > > > was > > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his life > in > > > an > > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the > stunting > > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > > > years > > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > > > badly > > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted > bodies > > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the > time. > > > > > > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > > > useful > > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can > buy > > > many > > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my hand > so > > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. > How > > > long > > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY > meal > > > for > > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any > specific > > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I just > > > coat > > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon > as > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the last > 6 > > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the > salt > > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank > just > > > > now will be barely background levels. > > > > > > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is > that > > > one > > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it > will be > > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest > anything > > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder > that > > > I > > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > > > > > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. > One > > > of > > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot ribbon > > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but > there > > > is > > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig > out > > > of > > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not > that > > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth > acrylic > > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > > > > > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the > bio > > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" > cubic > > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam > for > > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > > > > > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters > told me > > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & they > > > have > > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I > really > > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because I > > > liked > > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do all > I > > > can > > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > > > excellent > > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements > to > > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for > starters. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both > comets > > > and > > > > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is > > > causing > > > > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the > environment > > > or > > > > > water quality, or a combination of things. > > > > > > > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like > there > > > is an > > > > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the > age > > > of > > > > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely > internal > > > damage > > > > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, > and > > > can > > > > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, > in > > > spite > > > > > of even perfect care. > > > > > > > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, > which > > > if > > > > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There > is > > > no > > > > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with > it > > > and be > > > > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > > > > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as > a > > > > > preventive. > > > > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with > normal > > > > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if > there > > > is > > > > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, > which > > > will > > > > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have > seen > > > > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or > kidneys > > > are > > > > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing > certain > > > > > vitamins and minerals. > > > > > > > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > > > > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link > to it > > > let > > > > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the food > > > stand to > > > > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the > > > kanamycin, > > > > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. > The > > > Zoe is > > > > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more > > > specific > > > > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I > will > > > walk > > > > > you through it. > > > > > > > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank > overstocked? > > > It > > > > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality > > > looks to > > > > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, that > is > > > only > > > > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, > plenty > > > of > > > > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away from > > > each > > > > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great > deal > > > of > > > > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and > > > there is > > > > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of > > > medication > > > > > treatment.) > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on > an > > > > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" > long > > > > > overall > > > > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively worse > > > ragged > > > > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his > fin > > > rays > > > > > & > > > > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to time > but > > > > > they > > > > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad split > > > after a > > > > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole that > has > > > a > > > > > red > > > > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause > the > > > tail > > > > > to > > > > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been > > > pinkish > > > > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically > > > treating > > > > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP > swabs. I > > > > > tried > > > > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum > > > injections > > > > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has > also > > > > > taken a > > > > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the > results > > > > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > > > > > evidence. > > > > > > > > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 > > > Gallon > > > > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning the > > > tank > > > > > over > > > > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on > a > > > sub > > > > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot > there > > > are 9 > > > > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change every > 3-4 > > > > > days > > > > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section & > 8 > > > feet > > > > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a > mixture > > > of > > > > > 4mm > > > > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, > green > > > > > veggies > > > > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing > or > > > > > flicking > > > > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around so > I'm > > > > > sure > > > > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued > fairground > > > prize > > > > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My > thoughts > > > are > > > > > this > > > > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that > with > > > all > > > > > my 5 > > > > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet > the 4 > > > > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] > > > never > > > > > get > > > > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible > > > solutions > > > > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this > annoying > > > > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51037	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches

Here is a good site for info on fish, I will link the page for kuhli loaches. http://fish.mongabay.com/cobitinae.htm They like to dig in the substrate and prefer small gravel or sand/peat to dig in. Amber On 4/14/2011 3:02 PM, Jessica wrote: > > Hello! I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about these guys? > I was thinking of getting 1-2 to start with if I could find them. > Anyone had any experience? > Thanks! > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51038	From: haecklers	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Did the pet store put all those fish in one bag? Usually they use separate bags for each kind. The fish should NOT have died on the way home, unless you left them in the car to do more shopping on the way. You should remove your betta back to his old home right away to save him. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Karlene T" <tarkom@...> wrote: > > Hi All! > > I'm so glad this group is here. I haven't had an aquarium in over 15 years, so this all feels new to me again. > > I purchased a 20 gallon aquarium and set it up with treated tap water. I rinsed the gravel well when I put it in, and rinsed the decor as well. I set it up and let it start doing it's thing, and a few hours later (yes, stupid) brought home fish to add (stupid), a lot of fish (even more stupid.) > > I started with 2 dwarf gouramis, 3 lyretail mollies, a pair of swordfish, a pleco (they said it was fine to have a pleco as long as you added algea tabs), a cory cat, 2 ghost shrimp, and angelfish that died on the way home (I think the bags were too full), 4 neon tetras (so they could school) and several platies. I also moved my betta over from his tiny tank into the big one. I let the bags float awhile, then added the fish to the tank. > > The next morning (yesterday) I awoke to a very cloudy tank and several dead fish. Overnight I lost the pleco, all the neons and one molly. This morning, the tank is still cloudy, and another molly and one of the platies are dead. > > Is there anything I can do to clear up the cloudiness and save my poor fish? They are dying due to my stupidity, I know. I wondered if a partial water change would help them or hurt them, or if I should add something to the tank. > > I tested the water in a couple of places. First place used a kit with tubes and things they dripped in, and my water looked fine. Second place used the little strips (on the same water) and said my ammonia was high. Which is more reliable, the strips or the drips? > > Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > ~Karlene >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51039	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Thank you for your welcomes and your advice. I'll do a partial water change in a few minutes, and I have some bottled drinking water that I'll use instead of my tap water. It's what I've always used for my Betta tank, and is probably better than what comes out of my tap. The tank water is much clearer than it was earlier. I did lose 2 more fish; my favorite Molly and a Cory cat, and a ghost shrimp. I'm hoping maybe the rest of them will survive this. Poor guys, they didn't luck out with their caretaker. Barney, my betta, has to stay where he is. I had him in a divided tank with another betta on the other side. However, this guy somehow figured out how to squeeze between the divider and the tank. The first time it happened he beat the crap out of Fred, the other betta. I thought he'd jumped the barrier. The 2nd time I saw him do the squeeze thing. I immediatly caught him and put him back in his side. I tried to readjust the divider and called the company to complain. They sent me a new divider. I thought the problem was solved, until I came home to find Barney on the wrong side again. I think Fred won this round, although both of them look pretty bedraggled. When I moved Barney out of the tank I pulled the divider out completely, so the's stuck for now. Can you harm your fish by putting in too much Stresscoat? I used the water conditioner that came with my tank kit (Aqueon) but also used stresscoat because I used to swear by the stuff. I'll buy a test kit as well, as I obviously need to stay on top of that. Thanks again for your help. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51040	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Has anyone suggested testing the system for Chlorine? The death of the Angle sounds like Chlorine. The others could be victims of injury from the stuff. Any thoughts? >Welcome to the group Karlene (forgot to say that in the last post) :) > >Oh I also forgot to mention that your water will change if you test it >too long after removing it from the tank (for instance if you remove the >water and drive to a fish store hours a way and then test it, sometimes >it can change, it's best to test it right away, but sometimes that's not >able to be done). Also if their reagents (the drips) were old and >outdated they don't work as well (you have to shake them before every >use because the ingredients settle in the bottle and it can change your >test results as well, so just shaking them before every use helps keep >this from happening). >Just remember, right now water changes are your best friend for your >surviving fish, just make sure not to change more than 25% at a time >(until we know what your tap water baseline is). >To do a baseline test you'll need your own test kit, let us know when >you get one and we can walk you through doing your baseline tap water test. > Amber -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51041	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

Too much doesn't technically harm the fish, but it doesn't go anywhere either. So I would use less than the full dosage on your next water change. Your tap water should be fine, if you use bottled water it may not have some of the vitamins/minerals that fish need to thrive. Also it can change your tank parameter drastically if it's very different than your tank water parameters (such as a much lower pH, which will cause your tank's pH to lower and if it goes down/up too fast and too much it can quickly kill your fish). Right now concentrate on regular water changes (use your stresscoat, it's what I use for a water conditioner and besides the aloe it works great, the aloe isn't really needed for your fish but won't harm them either. Too much of it in the water may not be good for the fish either, so don't over dose). Also look at finding a master test kit (the ones with drip reagents) so you can test your own water without having to run to the fish store to have it done. When your tank is fully cycled you won't need to use the test kit every day, but you will still need to use it regularly to make sure nothing is changing too drastically in your tank. Your betta won't like the high ammonia but will survive better than your other fish, as it can breathe from the surface not just through it's gills. Your pleco should have been able to do that as well, but ammonia can be very deadly to fish (as I'm sure you have noticed). When your bacterial colony (nictrifying bacteria) start creating nitrites they are even more poisonous than the ammonia buildup, so you will have to continue testing your tank water regularly to make sure the nitrites don't get very high at all and keep up on the water changes. Right now changing the water as often as possible will be the best help to your fish, but make sure not to change too much too soon, let your fish adjust to the fresher water as changing it too fast (which can cause the pH and other water parameters to change drastically) can also kill your fish. Amber On 4/14/2011 6:45 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Thank you for your welcomes and your advice. I'll do a partial water > change > in a few minutes, and I have some bottled drinking water that I'll use > instead of my tap water. It's what I've always used for my Betta tank, and > is probably better than what comes out of my tap. > > The tank water is much clearer than it was earlier. I did lose 2 more > fish; > my favorite Molly and a Cory cat, and a ghost shrimp. I'm hoping maybe the > rest of them will survive this. Poor guys, they didn't luck out with their > caretaker. > > Barney, my betta, has to stay where he is. I had him in a divided tank > with > another betta on the other side. However, this guy somehow figured out how > to squeeze between the divider and the tank. The first time it happened he > beat the crap out of Fred, the other betta. I thought he'd jumped the > barrier. The 2nd time I saw him do the squeeze thing. I immediatly caught > him and put him back in his side. I tried to readjust the divider and > called the company to complain. They sent me a new divider. I thought the > problem was solved, until I came home to find Barney on the wrong side > again. I think Fred won this round, although both of them look pretty > bedraggled. When I moved Barney out of the tank I pulled the divider out > completely, so the's stuck for now. > > Can you harm your fish by putting in too much Stresscoat? I used the water > conditioner that came with my tank kit (Aqueon) but also used stresscoat > because I used to swear by the stuff. > > I'll buy a test kit as well, as I obviously need to stay on top of that. > > Thanks again for your help. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51042	From: Karlene	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

The Angel never made it out of the bag. It was dead when I got home. There were 10ish fish per bag; I think the ammonia built up too high. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51043	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/14/2011
Subject: Re: ~

That's probably a fairly good guess. Normally my LFS (local fish store) only puts 4-5 per bag at most, and then I'm only 10 minutes from home so the fish aren't normally in the bag for more than a couple hours (that's including acclimation time, using a drip method with a bucket). Amber On 4/14/2011 7:03 PM, Karlene wrote: > > The Angel never made it out of the bag. It was dead when I got home. There > were 10ish fish per bag; I think the ammonia built up too high. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51044	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: New member from Pakistan

I am from Pakistan. I have recently joined this Group and as it is customary to give a short introduction, I am giving my introduction. I am 65 year old ..no 65 years young.I am in Aquarium fancy for the last over 30 years. Over the years I have kept over 40 species of fish and have bred quite a few including, Discus, Angels, Bettas etc., I visit Thailand oft and on and attend Fish exhibitions. My main aim of joining this group is to educate myself with the ideas of younger fanciers who have modern knowledge. I will share my old ideas also whatever their worth is. I am an international Dog Judge and has judged in 16 countries. My other hobbies are, angling, gardening (cacti & Adeniums being my specialty) and horses. Ken Roy Lahore, Pakistan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51045	From: mr.cruzarmand	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Opinion(Help my friend decided)

Hey Guys, Armand Polanski Cruz, I am newbie here, so please be nice. I would to thank the moderators of this group that accepted my request.(I love you guys!) I was really worried that you would not accept me at all. Anyway, I have a question and I need your help on this guys.This does not require much brains but it requires you honest unsolicited opinion. "I actually have this super lovable friend, who had mid class parents, she just graduated college and looking for options. Now, One day her mom gave her two options, a.) stay here & have a family b.) Fly & settle in a foreign country. What's your take on this?" best regards, Armand Polanski CruzBlogger, Entrepreneur "If you want to be extraordinary,give a little extra effort, spend a little extra time, seek a little extra help, possess a little extra realism,make a little extra change." – John Maxwell [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51046	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan

Hey Ken! The Internet really dies make the world a small place! But how could you not mention Labradors in you intro? ~Karlene ---- TarKom Labradors > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51047	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" <jessica_ahl@...> wrote: > > Hello! I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about these guys? I was thinking of getting 1-2 to start with if I could find them. Anyone had any experience? > Thanks! > i love kuhli loaches they are very very fast though.....but if you have fine gravel you will not see them as much but the more u get the more often you'll see them. the real thing you have to worry about is medicating a take since they have no scales it could kill them

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51048	From: haecklers	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: Black kuhli loaches

I've had a pair for several months now. They like to hide during the day and come out at dusk so I put in extra food then turn off the light for them in the evening. Mine are less passive than I'd expect for such timid creatures - they'll kind of curl their bodies around the algae wafers (I use Omega One brand) to push the bristlenose plecos off of it. Give them a nice low cave to go under. If you don't have one, an oak leaf will work. Mine use a piece of coconut shell that I boiled and changed the water off of several times. They are awesome! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Elijah Salazar" <elijah258@...> wrote: > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" <jessica_ahl@> wrote: > > > > Hello! I was wondering if anyone could tell me more about these guys? I was thinking of getting 1-2 to start with if I could find them. Anyone had any experience? > > Thanks! > > > > i love kuhli loaches they are very very fast though.....but if you have fine gravel you will not see them as much but the more u get the more often you'll see them. the real thing you have to worry about is medicating a take since they have no scales it could kill them >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51049	From: haecklers	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan

I look forward to hearing your "old ideas". Welcome! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Roy" <rahul@...> wrote: > > I am from Pakistan. I have recently joined this Group and as it is customary to give a short introduction, I am giving my introduction. I am 65 year old ..no 65 years young.I am in Aquarium fancy for the last over 30 years. Over the years I have kept over 40 species of fish and have bred quite a few including, Discus, Angels, Bettas etc., I visit Thailand oft and on and attend Fish exhibitions. My main aim of joining this group is to educate myself with the ideas of younger fanciers who have modern knowledge. I will share my old ideas also whatever their worth is. I am an international Dog Judge and has judged in 16 countries. My other hobbies are, angling, gardening (cacti & Adeniums being my specialty) and horses. > Ken Roy > Lahore, Pakistan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51050	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: new fishies in my home

i got 5 betta's apple snails , misc snails. goldfish and more gold fish My question is what can put in a tank with ghost shrimp there also new ? They have oxygen and filter

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51051	From: Karlene	Date: 4/15/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home

You're going to put more than 1 betta in a tank? How does that work? ~Karlene On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Patricia Somewhere < patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > > i got 5 betta's > > apple snails , misc snails. > > goldfish and more gold fish > > My question is what can put in a tank with ghost shrimp there also new ? > They have oxygen and filter > > > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51052	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Karlene You Know My Secrets

Hello Karlene, So you know my secrets...thank God not bad ones. I am fletered. How are your Labs doing? Best regards Ken Roy lahore, Pakistan ----- Original Message ----- From: Karlene Turkington To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New member from Pakistan Hey Ken! The Internet really dies make the world a small place! But how could you not mention Labradors in you intro? ~Karlene ---- TarKom Labradors > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51053	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: JAPAN: The World's Luckiest Goldfish?

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3818&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_worlds_luckiest_goldfish?&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3ltl7fz The world's luckiest goldfish? A goldfish called Stephen survived an earthquake and spent three weeks home alone. He was rescued just hours before the building he was in was demolished. Stephen had been which had been living in an antiques store when the Christchurch earthquake on February 22 hit, and his owners, who lived upstairs, had to flee the building. Three weeks later, his owners were given the opportunity to retrieve a few valuables just before the building - which was missing some walls - was torn down. When they met USAR personnel, police and an excavator outside the store his owner asked if Stephen could be rescued from the top of the stairs. But when the team leader returned he said that although he'd found the bowl, it was just half full of water, and had a lump of brick inside it - but no fish. The assumption was that a passing seagull had flown into the house through a missing wall and had made a meal of the unfortunate fish. However, a few hours later, another USAR member decided to retrieve the empty bowl anyway - and it was found to contain the missing goldfish after all! He had been hiding under a plant, out of sight. Stephen had a wound on his side, but it has healed well and he's now living happily at his new home. Published: Practical Fishkeeping Tuesday 12 April 2011, 8:42 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51054	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Goblin Shark

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3829&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Goblin_shark&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3t349v3 Weird fish of the week: Goblin shark The amazing Goblin shark certainly lives up to the weird fish title. Just take a look at the video... Sharks have been cruising the oceans for over 420 million years, which is ample time for evolution to throw up all manner of weirdness. The Goblin shark, Mitsukurina owstoni, is a case in point. These poor fish have gained a reputation for ugliness which is not helped by the majority of images of them being taken post mortem with their impressive mouths extended. This a little like judging a beauty contest, but only when the contestants are yawning... and dead. In life the Goblin shark is a far more attractive creature. Their body shape is typical of what most of us would consider 'shark like', but with some marked differences. The most obvious one is their rostrum (nose), which is greatly enlarged and flattened into a paddle shape. This is where they get their common name from as Japanese fishermen called them 'tenguzame' after 'tengu', a mythical goblin like creature from folklore with a long nose. This impressive proboscis is covered in sensory pores known as 'the ampullae of Lorenzini' with which the shark can detect the electrical fields of prey both in the dark, and hidden in the seabed. This is where its most striking, but largely hidden adaptation comes into play. The shark has a set of truly bizarre jaws which with the aid of special ligaments can project out in front of their resting position, rather like those on the creature in the film Alien. These protractible jaws are filled with long slender teeth and can shoot out to snatch up any prey detected. Watch the video below to see those amazing jaws in action. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51055	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: UT: Caught on Camera: Man Steals $4000 Worth of Corals

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3833&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=Caught_on_camera:_Man_steals_$4000_worth_of_corals&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3apo6fv Caught on camera: Man steals $4000 worth of corals A thief who struck in broad daylight at an aquatics store in Midvale, Utah in the USA stole over $4000 worth of corals from the display tank. The man, who is seen ripping out large lumps of coral on the store's surveillance cameras, left a bucket outside the shop to transport the corals in. The owner of Marine Aquatics, Jerry Ohrn thinks the thief knew which corals to take, because they were all more elite or higher-end pieces, and therefore were more expensive. Ohrn told KSL.com that rather than trying to sell them, the thief probably intends to use them for his own aquarium. He said it's not just about the money either - he's spent years growing the coral. "These were some of the harder corals to keep, so the success rate after ripping them out, odds are he probably lost half of them in doing that," he said. Ohm is offering a reward, and is working with Midvale police to try and find the culprit. They can be contacted on 801-840-4000. You can watch the news report, including the video from the surveillance camera below: Video Courtesy of KSL.com Published: Practical Fishkeeping Friday 15 April 2011, 11:40 am \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51056	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: UT: Caught on Camera: Man Steals $4000 Worth of Corals

Meant to include link to video. It is http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=15126479 \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 6:52 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] UT: Caught on Camera: Man Steals $4000 Worth of Corals http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3833&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=Caught_on_came ra:_Man_steals_$4000_worth_of_corals&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3apo6fv Caught on camera: Man steals $4000 worth of corals A thief who struck in broad daylight at an aquatics store in Midvale, Utah in the USA stole over $4000 worth of corals from the display tank. The man, who is seen ripping out large lumps of coral on the store's surveillance cameras, left a bucket outside the shop to transport the corals in. The owner of Marine Aquatics, Jerry Ohrn thinks the thief knew which corals to take, because they were all more elite or higher-end pieces, and therefore were more expensive. Ohrn told KSL.com that rather than trying to sell them, the thief probably intends to use them for his own aquarium. He said it's not just about the money either - he's spent years growing the coral. "These were some of the harder corals to keep, so the success rate after ripping them out, odds are he probably lost half of them in doing that," he said. Ohm is offering a reward, and is working with Midvale police to try and find the culprit. They can be contacted on 801-840-4000. You can watch the news report, including the video from the surveillance camera below: Video Courtesy of KSL.com Published: Practical Fishkeeping Friday 15 April 2011, 11:40 am \\Steve// ------------------------------------ AquaticLife 7 A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. 74/`7.88.><((((:>.74/`7.88.74/`7.8><((((:> 8.74/`7.8. , .74/`7..><((((:> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <:((((><.74/`7.88.74/`7.8<:((((><8.74/`7.8. , .74/`7..<:((((><74/`7.88. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51057	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: The Fish That Lived in a Shoe

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3820&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=An_aquarium_in_a_shoe?_Whatever_next?&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/42wcg6a [Video at link.] An aquarium in a shoe? Whatever next? We've seen some fish living in some unusual places over the years, but this has to be one of the strangest... We couldn't resist showing you this Nike Air Max 360 running shoe, which has been transformed into an aquarium by taking off the upper part and replacing it with a clear material. Check out the video: Published: Practical Fishkeeping Tuesday 12 April 2011, 4:40 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51058	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3834&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_man_made_fish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3chb97n The 10 worst man made fish With so many amazing fish to choose from, why try and create our own? But unfortunately there are plenty of man made fish out there. Here's our top ten of some of the worst. Glow in the dark fish We're all up for science having genuine benefits to health, but put it in the wrong hands and useful gene technology can quickly become the next cosmetic money maker. Introducing the glow in the dark Angelfish and Convict cichlids (pictured above), hot off the backs of the fluorescent Zebra danios and ricefish, called Glofish, which glow under black light. Bubble eye goldfish One of the worst fish on this list is also one of the most long standing - the Bubble eye. Those huge fluid filled sacks affect swimming ability most of all, but also eyesight, and are a risk to the fish's health if they get caught, torn or popped and then become infected. Add large bubbles to a missing dorsal fin, large, twin tail and centuries of line breeding, weakening the fish, and you get a very unlucky goldfish. Parrot cichlid OK, so the Parrot cichlid is a hybrid of at least two species - the Severum and Midas cichlid - only they have then been selected for the balloon, short bodied form and have deformed mouths. Then add on injection of dyes, tattooing (pictured above) and even tail docking to form "heart parrots" and you have another victim of man's strange, cruel ways. Long fin serpae tetra What's the definition of irony? A fin-nipping fish that nips its own fins perhaps? Long finned fish are long established and very popular, like male guppies and Siamese fighters for example, but they don't nip fins. Line breed a known fin-nipping species like the Serpae tetra to have long fins and when you keep a group of them - like you should with all tetras - they bite each other's fins! --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51059	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish

One they left out that a lot of people are buying is the halfmoon betta. I've been watching these fish and they really have trouble with those long fins, some have dorsal fins that are so heavy they tip the fish over when it isn't swimming. Have people forgotten the sassy attitude bettas are supposed to have? Halfmoons are beauties but they're also handicapped. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3834&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_man_made_fish&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3chb97n > > The 10 worst man made fish > > With so many amazing fish to choose from, why try and create our own? But unfortunately there are plenty of man made fish out there. Here's our top ten of some of the worst. > > Glow in the dark fish > We're all up for science having genuine benefits to health, but put it in the wrong hands and useful gene technology can quickly become the next cosmetic money maker. > > Introducing the glow in the dark Angelfish and Convict cichlids (pictured above), hot off the backs of the fluorescent Zebra danios and ricefish, called Glofish, which glow under black light. > > Bubble eye goldfish > One of the worst fish on this list is also one of the most long standing - the Bubble eye. Those huge fluid filled sacks affect swimming ability most of all, but also eyesight, and are a risk to the fish's health if they get caught, torn or popped and then become infected. > > Add large bubbles to a missing dorsal fin, large, twin tail and centuries of line breeding, weakening the fish, and you get a very unlucky goldfish. > > Parrot cichlid > OK, so the Parrot cichlid is a hybrid of at least two species - the Severum and Midas cichlid - only they have then been selected for the balloon, short bodied form and have deformed mouths. Then add on injection of dyes, tattooing (pictured above) and even tail docking to form "heart parrots" and you have another victim of man's strange, cruel ways. > > Long fin serpae tetra > What's the definition of irony? A fin-nipping fish that nips its own fins perhaps? Long finned fish are long established and very popular, like male guppies and Siamese fighters for example, but they don't nip fins. Line breed a known fin-nipping species like the Serpae tetra to have long fins and when you keep a group of them - like you should with all tetras - they bite each other's fins! > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51060	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home

It depends on the tank. I've had guppies, platies, danios, bettas, gourami, cories, ancistrus and even baby angelfish and African cichlids live peacefully with ghost shrimp in a planted, well-decorated tank. In a plain bare tank they'll get bored and the shrimp will get picked on. I'm hoping you didn't get all those fish for one tank. Goldfish are pretty messy and like it cooler than bettas like. Plus they grow really fast and will outgrow an indoor tank quickly so that the amount of waste they make makes it really hard to maintain good water quality. I just moved my two tiny feeder goldfish outside because they couldn't live in their 10 gallon anymore without killing themselves and the crayfish whose home it is. In a couple of months they tripled in size and the ground started being covered in green mulm requiring more than weekly vacuuming, which the crayfish hated. If you got 5 male bettas, they'll each need their own home. Be aware they usually double in size from what they are in the pet store (unless they're halfmoons, they don't get as big, in my experience), so something that looks like an adequate home now will be really cramped quarters for them in 4 months. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia Somewhere" <patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > i got 5 betta's > > apple snails , misc snails. > > > goldfish and more gold fish > > > My question is what can put in a tank with ghost shrimp there also new ? > They have oxygen and filter >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51061	From: Melinda	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

Hello everyone, my name is Melinda and I've been a member for a while now, just never posted much. I always put my tap water in gallon jugs and added aqua safe, then added it to my aquarium. Could I just add the water directly from the tap to the tank then add the aqua safe and my fish still be ok?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51062	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish

I can think of a number of other creations that could be named as well. This is just one person's opinion. How about tattooed fish? Or the blueberry tetras? The proliferation of the various colored dwarf gouramis to the extent where it is very difficult to find a naturally colored one? \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 8:00 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish One they left out that a lot of people are buying is the halfmoon betta. I've been watching these fish and they really have trouble with those long fins, some have dorsal fins that are so heavy they tip the fish over when it isn't swimming. Have people forgotten the sassy attitude bettas are supposed to have? Halfmoons are beauties but they're also handicapped. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3834&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_m an_made_fish&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3chb97n > > The 10 worst man made fish > > With so many amazing fish to choose from, why try and create our own? But unfortunately there are plenty of man made fish out there. Here's our top ten of some of the worst. > > Glow in the dark fish > We're all up for science having genuine benefits to health, but put it in the wrong hands and useful gene technology can quickly become the next cosmetic money maker. > > Introducing the glow in the dark Angelfish and Convict cichlids (pictured above), hot off the backs of the fluorescent Zebra danios and ricefish, called Glofish, which glow under black light. > > Bubble eye goldfish > One of the worst fish on this list is also one of the most long standing - the Bubble eye. Those huge fluid filled sacks affect swimming ability most of all, but also eyesight, and are a risk to the fish's health if they get caught, torn or popped and then become infected. > > Add large bubbles to a missing dorsal fin, large, twin tail and centuries of line breeding, weakening the fish, and you get a very unlucky goldfish. > > Parrot cichlid > OK, so the Parrot cichlid is a hybrid of at least two species - the Severum and Midas cichlid - only they have then been selected for the balloon, short bodied form and have deformed mouths. Then add on injection of dyes, tattooing (pictured above) and even tail docking to form "heart parrots" and you have another victim of man's strange, cruel ways. > > Long fin serpae tetra > What's the definition of irony? A fin-nipping fish that nips its own fins perhaps? Long finned fish are long established and very popular, like male guppies and Siamese fighters for example, but they don't nip fins. Line breed a known fin-nipping species like the Serpae tetra to have long fins and when you keep a group of them - like you should with all tetras - they bite each other's fins! > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51063	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

Add the proper amount of your conditioner to the tank, then add the water. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Melinda Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:47 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Best way to add water to your aquarium? Hello everyone, my name is Melinda and I've been a member for a while now, just never posted much. I always put my tap water in gallon jugs and added aqua safe, then added it to my aquarium. Could I just add the water directly from the tap to the tank then add the aqua safe and my fish still be ok?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51064	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

>Hello everyone, my name is Melinda and I've been a member for a >while now, just never posted >much. I always put my tap water in >gallon jugs and added aqua safe, then added it to my >aquarium. >Could I just add the water directly from the tap to the tank then >add the aqua safe and >my fish still be ok? > > > I do, but the other way around, I add Thiosulfate to the tank water and then fresh tap water(temperature adjusted) on top of that. I mix everything well and check for Chlorine after I'm done just to be sure I'm not killing anything with our city's water's Chloramine. Charles H

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51065	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home

I didnt add bettas together, there in different tanks. im asking about ghost shrimp --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > You're going to put more than 1 betta in a tank? How does that work? > > ~Karlene > > On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:13 PM, Patricia Somewhere < > patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > > > > > > i got 5 betta's > > > > apple snails , misc snails. > > > > goldfish and more gold fish > > > > My question is what can put in a tank with ghost shrimp there also new ? > > They have oxygen and filter > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51066	From: haecklers	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Whatever happened to paradise gouramis?

I see pictures of them and they look beautiful. I read that they are really hardy and easy to keep. But I've never seen one in the pet stores and on aquabid all I've seen are "black" ones which are really plain looking. Where did they all go? Is there anyone left who is breeding them to be the colorful, attractive fish they used to be?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51067	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: Whatever happened to paradise gouramis?

I can't say that I have been looking for them, but they should still be around. I saw a tank of them at That Fish Place (Lancaster, PA) when I stopped by there last summer. That I noticed them then is that I look at every tank in the place to see what they have, since I only make it up there once a year or every other year. However, you have never really seen a paradise fish (I refuse to call them gouramis--they are labyrinth fish, but they are not gouramis, that is a name that sprang out of nowhere 10-15 years ago, and I have never liked it). If you really want to see them in their true glory, you need to keep them outdoors in a pond over the summer. The colors were absolutely brilliant, and I never realized the extensions they would get on their fins until I kept them outdoors. I started with 25-30 in a pond that measures in at approximately 2500 gallons along with a number of other fish. Goldfish were the first inhabitants, and the paradise fish were the second. Be forewarned that they apparently do not like goldfish as they decimated my population when they were added. I added other tropicals as well, and all were in superb color. I had some green swords also, and both the paradise fish and the swords were marked down in a show for their color as being "unnatural". I had some words with the judge afterwards, and I know they took, since I am also a judge, and was senior to him. If you can get the blacks into proper color, they are also beautiful fish. Back in the day when I was keeping the paradise fish, I would have killed to get some Macropodus concolor. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 3:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Whatever happened to paradise gouramis? I see pictures of them and they look beautiful. I read that they are really hardy and easy to keep. But I've never seen one in the pet stores and on aquabid all I've seen are "black" ones which are really plain looking. Where did they all go? Is there anyone left who is breeding them to be the colorful, attractive fish they used to be?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51068	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: The 10 Worst Man Made Fish

Hello: I couldn't agree more. Thanx for sharing. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 7:28:24 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] The 10 Worst Man Made Fish http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3834&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_10_worst_man_made_fish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3chb97n The 10 worst man made fish With so many amazing fish to choose from, why try and create our own? But unfortunately there are plenty of man made fish out there. Here's our top ten of some of the worst. Glow in the dark fish We're all up for science having genuine benefits to health, but put it in the wrong hands and useful gene technology can quickly become the next cosmetic money maker. Introducing the glow in the dark Angelfish and Convict cichlids (pictured above), hot off the backs of the fluorescent Zebra danios and ricefish, called Glofish, which glow under black light. Bubble eye goldfish One of the worst fish on this list is also one of the most long standing - the Bubble eye. Those huge fluid filled sacks affect swimming ability most of all, but also eyesight, and are a risk to the fish's health if they get caught, torn or popped and then become infected. Add large bubbles to a missing dorsal fin, large, twin tail and centuries of line breeding, weakening the fish, and you get a very unlucky goldfish. Parrot cichlid OK, so the Parrot cichlid is a hybrid of at least two species - the Severum and Midas cichlid - only they have then been selected for the balloon, short bodied form and have deformed mouths. Then add on injection of dyes, tattooing (pictured above) and even tail docking to form "heart parrots" and you have another victim of man's strange, cruel ways. Long fin serpae tetra What's the definition of irony? A fin-nipping fish that nips its own fins perhaps? Long finned fish are long established and very popular, like male guppies and Siamese fighters for example, but they don't nip fins. Line breed a known fin-nipping species like the Serpae tetra to have long fins and when you keep a group of them - like you should with all tetras - they bite each other's fins! --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51069	From: Karlene	Date: 4/16/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home

I apoligize. You didn't make it clear in your initial message, and I was curious as to how more than 1 male betta would mix in a tank. Ghost shrimp can be in a tank with a betta. TTBOMK so can snails, but I'm not positive on that score. ~Karlene On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Patricia Somewhere < patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > > I didnt add bettas together, there in different tanks. > > im asking about ghost shrimp > > > > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51070	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: I'm New

Hello Everyone, My name is Gail and I'm new to fish keeping. Thankfully I have a friend that helped me set-up my 3 Cichlid tanks. I only wanted 1 tank, but then you all know about that. He gave me a 29 gallon to start, got it cycling with his old filters and just a few fish. When it was ready he gave me more fish and 2 Yellow Labs that had frys in their mouths. I was so excited!!! So now that meant that I had to purchase a 10 gallon tank for the new frys when they were ready. The time came when he released them from the females mouths into the 10 gallon. That tank was cycled using the water from the 29 gal when we did a 10% water change. I'm happy to say that I only lost 2 to some kind of fungus. It was weird looking sort of like they were encased in some sort of fuzz. The rest of the frys are doing very well. So now I have 2 tanks. So now that I'm going to have all these fish, the 29 gal tank is eventually going to be too small, you guessed it I decided to get a 75 gal and be done with it. Well I ended up with a 125 gal tank on my fireplace. Hubby decided it would look better with a 125 gal tank on the fireplace and brought that home instead of the 75 gal. WOW! It sure was something for my eyes to get used to. I could fit in that tank with room to spare. The tank is nearing the completion of the cycling process next week. My friend gave me 4 fish to get the cycle going and when he went to place them into the tank, we got another surprise, more new frys. So now I have lots of frys. I love it. I will post some pictures soon of both aquariums. My girlfriend just started too. She went overboard and placed 30 fish in a 20 gallon tank without cycling it first. Sadly they all died and she discovered that they had ick. She's going to try again and this time follow some articles I gave her on setting up her tank and well as getting regular water tests at our local tropical fish shop. I know how hard it is to wait the 4-6 weeks. It wasn't easy for me but I'm so glad for all you aquarists out there that have helped us new ones along. I look forward to learning and sharing. Does anyone here have Cichlid aquariums? Mine are Malawi. Glad to be here, Gail

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51071	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: JAPAN: The World's Luckiest Goldfish?

Let's hope he's got a nice big tank with a filter now & not another bowl. John*<o)))< * On 16 April 2011 11:44, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3818&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_15_2011&utm_term=The_worlds_luckiest_goldfish?&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3ltl7fz > > The world's luckiest goldfish? > > A goldfish called Stephen survived an earthquake and spent three weeks home > alone. He was rescued just hours before the building he was in was > demolished. > > Stephen had been which had been living in an antiques store when the > Christchurch earthquake on February 22 hit, and his owners, who lived > upstairs, had to flee the building. > > Three weeks later, his owners were given the opportunity to retrieve a few > valuables just before the building - which was missing some walls - was torn > down. > > When they met USAR personnel, police and an excavator outside the store his > owner asked if Stephen could be rescued from the top of the stairs. > > But when the team leader returned he said that although he'd found the > bowl, it was just half full of water, and had a lump of brick inside it - > but no fish. The assumption was that a passing seagull had flown into the > house through a missing wall and had made a meal of the unfortunate fish. > > However, a few hours later, another USAR member decided to retrieve the > empty bowl anyway - and it was found to contain the missing goldfish after > all! He had been hiding under a plant, out of sight. > > Stephen had a wound on his side, but it has healed well and he's now living > happily at his new home. > > Published: Practical Fishkeeping Tuesday 12 April 2011, 8:42 am > > \\Steve// > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51072	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan

Hello: Welcome to the group. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Ken Roy <rahul@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 15, 2011 1:29:56 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] New member from Pakistan I am from Pakistan. I have recently joined this Group and as it is customary to give a short introduction, I am giving my introduction. I am 65 year old ..no 65 years young.I am in Aquarium fancy for the last over 30 years. Over the years I have kept over 40 species of fish and have bred quite a few including, Discus, Angels, Bettas etc., I visit Thailand oft and on and attend Fish exhibitions. My main aim of joining this group is to educate myself with the ideas of younger fanciers who have modern knowledge. I will share my old ideas also whatever their worth is. I am an international Dog Judge and has judged in 16 countries. My other hobbies are, angling, gardening (cacti & Adeniums being my specialty) and horses. Ken Roy Lahore, Pakistan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51073	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New

I have African Rift Lake fish including Malawi, Tanganyika and Victoria. Like you I started with a too small tank, a 38G, then bought a 125, then two 75G. I'm trying to stop here, LOL. Please consider cycling without fish to spare the living creatures the pain and physical damage of having to live in those toxins for several weeks. You can also use established bacteria from your 29G to start your 125G. (Note: water from an established tank won't work, but a filter, filter media or substrate from the established tank WILL work.) What are you planning to stock? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gail Dennis Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 9:35 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] I'm New Hello Everyone, My name is Gail and I'm new to fish keeping. Thankfully I have a friend that helped me set-up my 3 Cichlid tanks. I only wanted 1 tank, but then you all know about that. He gave me a 29 gallon to start, got it cycling with his old filters and just a few fish. When it was ready he gave me more fish and 2 Yellow Labs that had frys in their mouths. I was so excited!!! So now that meant that I had to purchase a 10 gallon tank for the new frys when they were ready. The time came when he released them from the females mouths into the 10 gallon. That tank was cycled using the water from the 29 gal when we did a 10% water change. I'm happy to say that I only lost 2 to some kind of fungus. It was weird looking sort of like they were encased in some sort of fuzz. The rest of the frys are doing very well. So now I have 2 tanks. So now that I'm going to have all these fish, the 29 gal tank is eventually going to be too small, you guessed it I decided to get a 75 gal and be done with it. Well I ended up with a 125 gal tank on my fireplace. Hubby decided it would look better with a 125 gal tank on the fireplace and brought that home instead of the 75 gal. WOW! It sure was something for my eyes to get used to. I could fit in that tank with room to spare. The tank is nearing the completion of the cycling process next week. My friend gave me 4 fish to get the cycle going and when he went to place them into the tank, we got another surprise, more new frys. So now I have lots of frys. I love it. I will post some pictures soon of both aquariums. My girlfriend just started too. She went overboard and placed 30 fish in a 20 gallon tank without cycling it first. Sadly they all died and she discovered that they had ick. She's going to try again and this time follow some articles I gave her on setting up her tank and well as getting regular water tests at our local tropical fish shop. I know how hard it is to wait the 4-6 weeks. It wasn't easy for me but I'm so glad for all you aquarists out there that have helped us new ones along. I look forward to learning and sharing. Does anyone here have Cichlid aquariums? Mine are Malawi. Glad to be here, Gail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51074	From: jmdarlack@yahoo.com	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Nooooooooo!

Mix the water before adding it to the tank that has fish ! I tried it once and the fish were either very stressed out died. Jim Sent via DROID on Verizon Wireless [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51075	From: haecklers	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home

In too small a container, or an undecorated one (or both) the betta will likely be bored and will kill the shrimp. In a community tank they do fine together. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > I apoligize. You didn't make it clear in your initial message, and I was > curious as to how more than 1 male betta would mix in a tank. > > Ghost shrimp can be in a tank with a betta. TTBOMK so can snails, but I'm > not positive on that score. > > ~Karlene > On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Patricia Somewhere < > patriciasomewhere@...> wrote: > > > > > > > I didnt add bettas together, there in different tanks. > > > > im asking about ghost shrimp > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51076	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Mars Fishcare Catalogue

Mars, yes, that's right, the people who make M&M's, Snickers, and other stuff that people say are bad for you to eat while they suck down their Mars made Dove bars, also owns several fish product lines--API, Aquarian, PondCare, and Rena. They have published a catalogue for all the brands on a CD which is a ~68MB PDF file. If you go to http://www.marsfishcare.com/#, you will be able to get to each site from there, but there does not seem to be a centralized catalogue of all the brands. If there is interest in the catalogue of all the Mars fish brands, I can put it up online for a limited time so people can grab it. Keep in mind that this is an ~68MB file, and it can take you sometime to download it (I have a 25Mbps connection here, up and down, so it takes me no time to transfer something like this, but if you are still on modem or a slow DSL circuit, it can take quite some time). Just reply here or to me privately. If the interest is there, I'll get the file up and post the URL where it can be found. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51077	From: Melinda	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

Cool, Thanks for your help ^^ --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > Add the proper amount of your conditioner to the tank, then add the water. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Melinda > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:47 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best way to add water to your aquarium? > > Hello everyone, my name is Melinda and I've been a member for a while now, > just never posted much. I always put my tap water in gallon jugs and added > aqua safe, then added it to my aquarium. Could I just add the water directly > from the tap to the tank then add the aqua safe and my fish still be ok? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51078	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: LEAVING GROUP

IM LEAVING CAUSE OF RUDE ANSWERS OR COMMENTS . http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/JOIN

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51079	From: Patricia Somewhere	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER

HOW STUPID DO YOU THINK I AM? I ASKED ABOUT GHOST SHRIMP. I HATE TOO TELL YOU GOLDFISH AND BETTAS ARE IN DIFFERENT TALKS. I WILL FIND ANOTHER GROUP. MAY BE ONE CAN UNDERSTAND ENGLISH A LITTLE BETER. I AM NOT STUPID. IF ONE WITH A LITTLE OF COMEND SENCE CAN EMAIL ME PRIVATELY. PS YOU LOST ME AS A MEMBER . JOIN A GROUP HAS RESPECT FOR ANOTHER MEMBER. THAT YOU WONT GET A RUDE ANSWER OR COMMENT. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/JOIN

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51080	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

so my sister gave me a 55 gallon aquarium and the newt has now moved up a notch (from a 33). i have 2 strip lights, no heater and a "bubble bar" i would like to give the newt more plants (one of a lilly type he can sit on if wanted) as the tank doesnt look as full as the 33. i might also like to add some fish, but not gold fish. i have guppies in there right now and they dwindle as he catches them for a snack. any thoughts on plants or fish? what kind of lghting should i go with? erika newark de usa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51081	From: Mark	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Floating plants

I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 3 African Clawed Frogs, and I was wondering what kind of floating plant would work best. My light is a 35 watt coolwhite sitting on glass. I run the light 8-10 hours a day then my blue LEDS for 2-3 hours a night. Water temp aroud 70 degrees, 6.4-6.8 ph if that matters.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51082	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New

Hi Gail, I have a similar capacity tank to yours-109 UK gallons that is 8 feet long & before I filled it I took a photo of my friend's 2 kids laying in it with room to spare!! Your girlfriend would be better off getting herself a test kit rather than relying on the local store. Liquid tests are more accurate than paper strips & the API Master Test Kit is a good package. John*<o)))< * On 17 April 2011 13:30, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > I have African Rift Lake fish including Malawi, Tanganyika and Victoria. > Like you I started with a too small tank, a 38G, then bought a 125, then > two > 75G. I'm trying to stop here, LOL. > > Please consider cycling without fish to spare the living creatures the pain > and physical damage of having to live in those toxins for several weeks. > You can also use established bacteria from your 29G to start your 125G. > > (Note: water from an established tank won't work, but a filter, filter > media or substrate from the established tank WILL work.) > > What are you planning to stock? > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Gail Dennis > Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 9:35 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] I'm New > > > Hello Everyone, > My name is Gail and I'm new to fish keeping. Thankfully I have a friend > that > helped me set-up > my 3 Cichlid tanks. I only wanted 1 tank, but then you all know about that. > He gave me a 29 gallon to start, got it cycling with his old filters and > just a few > fish. When it was ready he gave me more fish and 2 Yellow Labs that had > frys > in their mouths. I was so excited!!! So now that meant that I had to > purchase a 10 gallon tank for the new frys when they were ready. The time > came when he released them from the females mouths into the 10 gallon. > That tank was cycled using the water from the 29 gal when we did a 10% > water > change. I'm happy to say that I only lost 2 to some kind of fungus. > It was weird looking sort of like they were encased in some sort of fuzz. > The rest of the frys are doing very well. So now I have 2 tanks. So now > that I'm going to have all these fish, the 29 gal tank is eventually going > to be too small, you guessed it I decided to get a 75 gal and be done with > it. > Well I ended up with a 125 gal tank on my fireplace. Hubby decided it would > look better with a 125 gal tank on the fireplace and brought that home > instead of the 75 gal. WOW! It sure was something for my eyes to get used > to. I could fit in that tank with room to spare. > The tank is nearing the completion of the cycling process next week. My > friend gave me 4 fish to get the cycle going and when he went to place them > > into the tank, we got another surprise, more new frys. So now I have lots > of > frys. I love it. I will post some pictures soon of both aquariums. > > My girlfriend just started too. She went overboard and placed 30 fish in a > 20 gallon tank without cycling it first. Sadly they all died and she > discovered > that they had ick. She's going to try again and this time follow some > articles I gave her on setting up her tank and well as getting regular > water > tests > at our local tropical fish shop. I know how hard it is to wait the 4-6 > weeks. It wasn't easy for me but I'm so glad for all you aquarists out > there > that > have helped us new ones along. I look forward to learning and sharing. > > Does anyone here have Cichlid aquariums? Mine are Malawi. > > Glad to be here, > Gail > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51083	From: Baby P m	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: New member from Pakistan

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > > Hello: > Welcome to the group. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ken Roy <rahul@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, April 15, 2011 1:29:56 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New member from Pakistan > > > I am from Pakistan. I have recently joined this Group and as it is customary to > give a short introduction, I am giving my introduction. I am 65 year old ..no 65 > years young.I am in Aquarium fancy for the last over 30 years. Over the years I > have kept over 40 species of fish and have bred quite a few including, Discus, > Angels, Bettas etc., I visit Thailand oft and on and attend Fish exhibitions. My > main aim of joining this group is to educate myself with the ideas of younger > fanciers who have modern knowledge. I will share my old ideas also whatever > their worth is. I am an international Dog Judge and has judged in 16 countries. > My other hobbies are, angling, gardening (cacti & Adeniums being my specialty) > and horses. > Ken Roy > Lahore, Pakistan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51084	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

I do not know if Patricia is still around to read this, but I looked up the thread, and found that her initial post was very vague, that there was a question raised about the 5 bettas she kept and how she kept them and an answer that was about as specific as it could be with the information given and the question asked. I saw no rudeness in any of the replies. For those of you who are reading this, when you have a question, please give us as much information as you can regarding your current situation, even if you may think it is too much. It may save us from having to ask you questions about the situation that only delays us from relaying an answer to you, especially in the case of sick or injured fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] LEAVING GROUP IM LEAVING CAUSE OF RUDE ANSWERS OR COMMENTS . http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/JOIN

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51085	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

I'd you add the conditioner separately from the water and take the water right from the tap, don't you worry about the added water being the wrong temperature? And I'm not challenging, just asking and trying to learn. ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone "Steve Szabo" wrote: > > > > Add the proper amount of your conditioner to the tank, then add the water. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51086	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

Erica, For a tank that will be no more than room temperature (actually a temperate water tank) fish that you might want to consider are white cloud mountain fish and paradise fish, both of which will do well at room temperature. Medekas also come to mind. As for broad leaved plants, you'll need to look through a good plant book to see what fits the bill (though maybe a few here could help you out on that) and then determine their availability in your area. Other plants you can use include anacharis (elodea) and Cabomba carolinas (sp?). This species of cabomba comes from the Carolinas (gee, could you guess from the name?) and should do well in that range of temperature. A better idea for the newt to hoist himself out of the water is to either make the tank into what is known as a paludarium, with areas of water and land planted with both aquatic species and terrestrial plants that like to get their feet wet, or to build him a shelf where the newt can get out of the water if it wishes. The shelf should ramp into the water so it does not actually need to climb. I suspect that any broad leaved plant you can find that is suitable for tank life would not have the strength or buoyancy to support its body weight. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of erika77andnewton91 Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 8:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] ideas for a cold water 55 gallon so my sister gave me a 55 gallon aquarium and the newt has now moved up a notch (from a 33). i have 2 strip lights, no heater and a "bubble bar" i would like to give the newt more plants (one of a lilly type he can sit on if wanted) as the tank doesnt look as full as the 33. i might also like to add some fish, but not gold fish. i have guppies in there right now and they dwindle as he catches them for a snack. any thoughts on plants or fish? what kind of lghting should i go with? erika newark de usa ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51087	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium?

Karlene, You run both hot and cold water to get approximately your tank's temperature, fill your container and then put that water in the tank. I'm thinking that shortly I'll hear the thwack of hand hitting forehead and the word Homer Simpson made famous "Doh!" <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Karlene Turkington Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 10:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Best way to add water to your aquarium? I'd you add the conditioner separately from the water and take the water right from the tap, don't you worry about the added water being the wrong temperature? And I'm not challenging, just asking and trying to learn. ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone "Steve Szabo" wrote: > > > > Add the proper amount of your conditioner to the tank, then add the water. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51088	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/17/2011
Subject: Re: I'm New

Hello Gail: Welcome to the group. I used to keep quite a few Pseudotropheus African Cichlids but right at the moment I'm working with South American Cichlids, Catfish, and some Livebearers. Again, welcome to the group. It's a lively, friendly place that produces lots of good information. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 16, 2011 9:34:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] I'm New Hello Everyone, My name is Gail and I'm new to fish keeping. Thankfully I have a friend that helped me set-up my 3 Cichlid tanks. I only wanted 1 tank, but then you all know about that. He gave me a 29 gallon to start, got it cycling with his old filters and just a few fish. When it was ready he gave me more fish and 2 Yellow Labs that had frys in their mouths. I was so excited!!! So now that meant that I had to purchase a 10 gallon tank for the new frys when they were ready. The time came when he released them from the females mouths into the 10 gallon. That tank was cycled using the water from the 29 gal when we did a 10% water change. I'm happy to say that I only lost 2 to some kind of fungus. It was weird looking sort of like they were encased in some sort of fuzz. The rest of the frys are doing very well. So now I have 2 tanks. So now that I'm going to have all these fish, the 29 gal tank is eventually going to be too small, you guessed it I decided to get a 75 gal and be done with it. Well I ended up with a 125 gal tank on my fireplace. Hubby decided it would look better with a 125 gal tank on the fireplace and brought that home instead of the 75 gal. WOW! It sure was something for my eyes to get used to. I could fit in that tank with room to spare. The tank is nearing the completion of the cycling process next week. My friend gave me 4 fish to get the cycle going and when he went to place them into the tank, we got another surprise, more new frys. So now I have lots of frys. I love it. I will post some pictures soon of both aquariums. My girlfriend just started too. She went overboard and placed 30 fish in a 20 gallon tank without cycling it first. Sadly they all died and she discovered that they had ick. She's going to try again and this time follow some articles I gave her on setting up her tank and well as getting regular water tests at our local tropical fish shop. I know how hard it is to wait the 4-6 weeks. It wasn't easy for me but I'm so glad for all you aquarists out there that have helped us new ones along. I look forward to learning and sharing. Does anyone here have Cichlid aquariums? Mine are Malawi. Glad to be here, Gail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51089	From: joe t	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER

Sounds like someone had a bad day. :0(

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51090	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

I am just wondering what species of newt you have? I wonder because you mentioned cold water/no heater and I know that most newts found in the hobby are tropical and need the warmer water to stay healthy and thrive. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "erika77andnewton91" <e.isme@...> wrote: > > so my sister gave me a 55 gallon aquarium and the newt has now moved up a notch (from a 33). i have 2 strip lights, no heater and a "bubble bar" i would like to give the newt more plants (one of a lilly type he can sit on if wanted) as the tank doesnt look as full as the 33. i might also like to add some fish, but not gold fish. i have guppies in there right now and they dwindle as he catches them for a snack. any thoughts on plants or fish? what kind of lghting should i go with? > > erika newark de usa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51091	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants

problem you'll probably have is the plants not surviving the frogs. they'll eat, or attempt to eat, anything they can shove in their mouths. i know they aren't aquatic, but i had good success with pothos with my frogs. they found them to be unpalatable. i had tried anacharis and such but the frogs decided they looked and tasted yummy. erika newark de --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <speerwashere@...> wrote: > > I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 3 African Clawed Frogs, and I was wondering what kind of floating plant would work best. My light is a 35 watt coolwhite sitting on glass. I run the light 8-10 hours a day then my blue LEDS for 2-3 hours a night. Water temp aroud 70 degrees, 6.4-6.8 ph if that matters. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51092	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

Hi Steve, I completely agree with you-I'm in another Yahoo! forum dealing mainly with Goldfish & people will often leave simply because they don't like what they are being told, generally this is when they have a tank way too small for the number or size of fish they have. I came on here to seek advice about my Comets & found out I too had overstocked so have taken the necessary steps to remedy the situation. Like Patricia I got several useful replies but unlike her am very grateful for it & so are my fish! Also, yes it is difficult to help when you only get partial or vague info & you have to try to fill in the blanks yourself, I can't understand why people would want to ask advice if they don't want to act on it. John*<o)))< * On 18 April 2011 03:19, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > I do not know if Patricia is still around to read this, but I looked up the > thread, and found that her initial post was very vague, that there was a > question raised about the 5 bettas she kept and how she kept them and an > answer that was about as specific as it could be with the information given > and the question asked. I saw no rudeness in any of the replies. > > For those of you who are reading this, when you have a question, please > give > us as much information as you can regarding your current situation, even if > you may think it is too much. It may save us from having to ask you > questions about the situation that only delays us from relaying an answer > to > you, especially in the case of sick or injured fish. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] LEAVING GROUP > > > IM LEAVING CAUSE OF RUDE ANSWERS OR COMMENTS . > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/JOIN > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51093	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: new fishies in my home AND LOST A MEMBER

There's no need to shout. John*<o)))< * On 18 April 2011 15:55, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > > > Sounds like someone had a bad day. > > :0( > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51094	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants

A plant that has a similar texture to pothos would be anubias (they are often not eaten by most fish because they have thick almost rubbery leaves, and they're usually hard to bite). What about having a sump tank with plants growing in it? This way the frogs couldn't actually get to the plants, but they would be able to help filter the water? They wouldn't do a lot of help, but at least some help. They would probably eat duck weed, but with how fast it grows that might not be a bad thing, I would recommend "growing" some in a small tank (such as a ten gallon or less), and just moving most of it to the main tank with the frogs now and then. People with goldfish will often do this, as goldfish love to eat duck weed. When you do your water changes just fill the 10 gallon with removed tank water (that way the duck weed gets plenty of nutrients to grow with), or you could keep some small fish in the smaller tank, but they might not produce enough waste for the duck weed. In my tanks the duck weed just takes over and pretty soon the lower plants aren't getting enough light to survive. So I have to scoop a bunch out of most of my tanks on a monthly (or sooner) basis. They would probably eat water lettuce (also known as wisteria), faster than it can grow. Try checking out www.plantgeek.net to see what types of plants they have in the "floating" category, that may help you out a little. Amber On 4/18/2011 3:02 PM, erika77andnewton91 wrote: > > problem you'll probably have is the plants not surviving the frogs. > they'll eat, or attempt to eat, anything they can shove in their > mouths. i know they aren't aquatic, but i had good success with pothos > with my frogs. they found them to be unpalatable. i had tried > anacharis and such but the frogs decided they looked and tasted yummy. > > erika newark de > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mark" <speerwashere@...> wrote: > > > > I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 3 African Clawed Frogs, and I was > wondering what kind of floating plant would work best. My light is a > 35 watt coolwhite sitting on glass. I run the light 8-10 hours a day > then my blue LEDS for 2-3 hours a night. Water temp aroud 70 degrees, > 6.4-6.8 ph if that matters. > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51095	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

There are wild critters that look like the newts you can get at the LFS. I've seen them in my local waters. It's possible that Erika has a wild type newt, but they aren't as pretty as the tropical ones (they look mostly brown and green, to blend in). Also if she keeps her house warm enough (like I do), she may not need a heater for some tropical critters. I keep my house temps around 78-80, so my heaters are mostly just in case the heat in my house goes out, or drops below 78. For the most part my heaters are rarely on in my tanks. Amber On 4/18/2011 10:47 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > I am just wondering what species of newt you have? I wonder because > you mentioned cold water/no heater and I know that most newts found in > the hobby are tropical and need the warmer water to stay healthy and > thrive. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "erika77andnewton91" > <e.isme@...> wrote: > > > > so my sister gave me a 55 gallon aquarium and the newt has now moved > up a notch (from a 33). i have 2 strip lights, no heater and a "bubble > bar" i would like to give the newt more plants (one of a lilly type he > can sit on if wanted) as the tank doesnt look as full as the 33. i > might also like to add some fish, but not gold fish. i have guppies in > there right now and they dwindle as he catches them for a snack. any > thoughts on plants or fish? what kind of lghting should i go with? > > > > erika newark de usa > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51096	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

Before I became a moderator for this group I went through my own trial and error problems as a new fish owner. And yes I did it the wrong way, and the hard way. LOL. I ended up killing most of the fish I first bought a few years back, because I knew nothing about cycling a new fish tank (which is quite common for new fish owners sadly enough, fish stores should have hand outs on this). I was also given very blunt advice by this group, and I corrected my errors as soon as I knew about them. Sometimes our advice comes across as blunt and can almost be rude if people want to read it that way. But we are really only here just to help people learn. I still find myself learning new stuff about the fish hobby, and I appreciate it when people correct me when I'm wrong. It's hard to put feelings into emails, we all come across as Eeyore (from Winnie-the-Pooh) at some point ;) LOL. Amber On 4/18/2011 8:21 AM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > I completely agree with you-I'm in another Yahoo! forum dealing mainly > with Goldfish & people will often leave simply because they don't like > what > they are being told, generally this is when they have a tank way too small > for the number or size of fish they have. I came on here to seek advice > about my Comets & found out I too had overstocked so have taken the > necessary steps to remedy the situation. Like Patricia I got several > useful > replies but unlike her am very grateful for it & so are my fish! > > Also, yes it is difficult to help when you only get partial or vague > info & > you have to try to fill in the blanks yourself, I can't understand why > people would want to ask advice if they don't want to act on it. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 18 April 2011 03:19, Steve Szabo <steve@... > <mailto:steve%40familyszabo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > I do not know if Patricia is still around to read this, but I looked > up the > > thread, and found that her initial post was very vague, that there was a > > question raised about the 5 bettas she kept and how she kept them and an > > answer that was about as specific as it could be with the > information given > > and the question asked. I saw no rudeness in any of the replies. > > > > For those of you who are reading this, when you have a question, please > > give > > us as much information as you can regarding your current situation, > even if > > you may think it is too much. It may save us from having to ask you > > questions about the situation that only delays us from relaying an > answer > > to > > you, especially in the case of sick or injured fish. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Patricia Somewhere > > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2011 4:54 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] LEAVING GROUP > > > > > > IM LEAVING CAUSE OF RUDE ANSWERS OR COMMENTS . > > > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/Fresh-Water-Or-Salt-Water-Aquariums/JOIN > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51097	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

<<For a tank that will be no more than room temperature (actually a temperate water tank) fish that you might want to consider are white cloud mountain fish and paradise fish, both of which will do well at room temperature. Medekas also come to mind.>> lol! youve never felt my house in the winter:-) but yes temperate water tank. thanks, i'll wander down to my LFS and see if they have them. <<As for broad leaved plants, you'll need to look through a good plant book to see what fits the bill (though maybe a few here could help you out on that) and then determine their availability in your area. Other plants you can use include anacharis (elodea) and Cabomba carolinas (sp?). This species of cabomba comes from the Carolinas (gee, could you guess from the name?) and should do well in that range of temperature.>> I have decided I am the only person in the world who can kill anacharis. I'll go look up cabomba carolinas:-) <<A better idea for the newt to hoist himself out of the water is to either make the tank into what is known as a paludarium, with areas of water and land planted with both aquatic species and terrestrial plants that like to get their feet wet, or to build him a shelf where the newt can get out of the water if it wishes. The shelf should ramp into the water so it does not actually need to climb. I suspect that any broad leaved plant you can find that is suitable for tank life would not have the strength or buoyancy to support its body weight.>> doh!!(smacking forhead) damn it if i had been more patient you just gave me a great idea. I could have siliconed the plastic egg crate stuff for lights to the side just above where the water would go!!! damn it. hmmm...might still be able to do something with it... i had a paludarium when i had my fire belly toads years ago and it was a pita to clean and maintain. figured since the newts prefer to be more aquatic i would just set him up with a small something to come out onto. <<I am just wondering what species of newt you have? I wonder because you mentioned cold water/no heater and I know that most newts found in the hobby are tropical and need the warmer water to stay healthy and thrive.>> he is a firebelly newt. they like cool temperatures. i admit he(and his former tank mate) were an impulse buy. not something i usually do with critters. my plan was to put them in with my nigerian clawed frog. brought them home, THEN did my research. hmmm lets see frog likes 75-78, newt likes cooler than 74, closer to 68. that wasnt gonna work well:-) erika newark de

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51098	From: haecklers	Date: 4/18/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

I've been keeping some guppies in a room temp. tank all winter and they're doing fine. They just don't seem to have babies at cold temps, which is fine by me, I've been there, done the the millions of guppy fry thing. You can also look at some of the cool native American fish. On aquabid some interesting ones come up that are pretty colorful and some stay small. A site I was looking at said ghost shrimp can live at cool temps too. I had a couple in a bowl (test to see if they'd eat some algae that was in there) and they both died a lot sooner than I expected, so I'm not sure about that, but maybe the bowl needed more water changes than what I did (I forgot it for periods of time). Bloodfin tetras are supposed to be able to handle temps into the mid-60's, as are danios, regular and pearl. Since glofish are just genetically modified danios, I'd guess they would be ok too if you want man-made freaks in your tank. If you're doing live feeding anyway for the newt, a dragonfish might be a cool addition. We were at That Fish Place today and saw some, they were really cool looking. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "erika77andnewton91" <e.isme@...> wrote: > > > <<For a tank that will be no more than room temperature (actually a temperate > water tank) fish that you might want to consider are white cloud mountain > fish and paradise fish, both of which will do well at room temperature. > Medekas also come to mind.>> > > > > lol! youve never felt my house in the winter:-) but yes temperate water tank. thanks, i'll wander down to my LFS and see if they have them. > > > > > <<As for broad leaved plants, you'll need to look through a good plant book to > see what fits the bill (though maybe a few here could help you out on that) > and then determine their availability in your area. Other plants you can use > include anacharis (elodea) and Cabomba carolinas (sp?). This species of > cabomba comes from the Carolinas (gee, could you guess from the name?) and > should do well in that range of temperature.>> > > > > I have decided I am the only person in the world who can kill anacharis. I'll go look up cabomba carolinas:-) > > <<A better idea for the newt to hoist himself out of the water is to either > make the tank into what is known as a paludarium, with areas of water and > land planted with both aquatic species and terrestrial plants that like to > get their feet wet, or to build him a shelf where the newt can get out of > the water if it wishes. The shelf should ramp into the water so it does not > actually need to climb. I suspect that any broad leaved plant you can find > that is suitable for tank life would not have the strength or buoyancy to > support its body weight.>> > > > > doh!!(smacking forhead) damn it if i had been more patient you just gave me a great idea. I could have siliconed the plastic egg crate stuff for lights to the side just above where the water would go!!! damn it. hmmm...might still be able to do something with it... i had a > paludarium when i had my fire belly toads years ago and it was a pita to clean and maintain. figured since the newts prefer to be more aquatic i would just set him up with a small something to come out onto. > > > > > <<I am just wondering what species of newt you have? I wonder because you > mentioned cold water/no heater and I know that most newts found in the hobby are > tropical and need the warmer water to stay healthy and thrive.>> > > > > he is a firebelly newt. they like cool temperatures. i admit he(and his former tank mate) were an impulse buy. not something i usually do with critters. my plan was to put them in with my nigerian clawed frog. brought them home, THEN did my research. hmmm lets see frog likes 75-78, newt likes cooler than 74, closer to 68. that wasnt gonna work well:-) > > > > > > erika newark de >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51099	From: Ken Roy	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium

Recently many different coloured Cray fish, normally called here Fresh Water Lobster have been imported by Aquarium shops, mostly from Thailand and Taiwan. The opinion of aquarists here about their behaviour with other fish is varied. Some swear they have no problem but some say these creature injure other aquarium fish and even eat small fish. I would like to hear views of those who have some experience in this. Ken Roy Lahore, Pakistan www.kendensar.info [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51100	From: haecklers	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium

I have marmorkrebs (aka marbled crayfish) - the ones said to be the most peaceful. They don't eat their young, but when I put White Cloud Minnows with them they did try to eat them - one had part of its face eaten off, another just last night was pinched badly in the middle so it is bruised terribly - we're not sure if it will survive or not. Yet another one just disappeared one day. I had baby crayfish in my betta fry tanks, to eat any missed food and keep it clean. I found out later they were eating the fins on the bettas when they were asleep. I thought the fin damage was from them fighting until my daughter saw one grab one one time, then I removed them but not before one caught one poor girl and ate almost all of her fins off of her - thankfully she recovered. We've had guppies and goldfish with crayfish before and they were never injured or eaten, tho. The American cray would set traps - put a piece of food outside his cave entrance and wait with both claws ready to grab a guppy as it came to eat, but the guppies were too smart for him and never got caught. I think the difference is you need very wary fish. Crayfish are usually nocturnal, but the damage to the minnows was during the day, not at night. Crayfish do make interesting pets, some will remodel your tank to make themselves caves. Some can learn to come eat out of your hands. They seem to be pretty smart. The marmorkrebs clone themselves so if you get one you soon get overrun with them. We tried feeding some juveniles to our Jack Dempsey. They survived in the tank with the JD for a long time then one day the JD would decide it was time for fresh meat. We fed the babies to the African cichlids and they never even reach the bottom of the tank. I've read crayfish are safe with most fish but cichlids learn to flip them over and eat from the soft underside. Not my JD, I think he waited until they molted because he took bites right off of the tail. Angelfish are vicious hunters too and I wouldn't put a crayfish in with them. As for the colors, some of that is dependent on food and background/light. Marmokrebs can range from bright orange to blue, and it has to do with the amount of certain nutrients in the food (astaxanthin??) and if you raise them in the dark they turn blue (but then you can't grow plants to feed them). Normally they're a kind of brown/orange color. Even shrimp are highly reactive to the foods, my Red Cherry Shrimp have been eating color-enhancing food with astaxanthin and they turned bright bright red/orange but some I put in a fry tank are almost clear (they get the microworms the fry miss). - R --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Roy" <rahul@...> wrote: > > Recently many different coloured Cray fish, normally called here Fresh Water Lobster have been imported by Aquarium shops, mostly from Thailand and Taiwan. The opinion of aquarists here about their behaviour with other fish is varied. Some swear they have no problem but some say these creature injure other aquarium fish and even eat small fish. I would like to hear views of those who have some experience in this. > > Ken Roy > > Lahore, Pakistan > > www.kendensar.info > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51101	From: Karlene	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

I honestly think the problem was one of communication. In reading Patricia's emails, I am guessing that English is not her first language. This prevented us from understanding what she really wanted to know, and her from comprehending what she was being told. Just a guess though! ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51102	From: Mark	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Floating plants

Thanks for the replies. I do have a 10 gallon going I just pulled my youngest frog out of and put in the 55 and plan on getting feeder guppies or acouple more baby frogs to put in it so that will work and be good cover for the fry and the sump sounds like a good idea I may do that if the frogs eat the plant faster than it will grow. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > A plant that has a similar texture to pothos would be anubias (they are > often not eaten by most fish because they have thick almost rubbery > leaves, and they're usually hard to bite). > What about having a sump tank with plants growing in it? This way the > frogs couldn't actually get to the plants, but they would be able to > help filter the water? They wouldn't do a lot of help, but at least some > help. > They would probably eat duck weed, but with how fast it grows that might > not be a bad thing, I would recommend "growing" some in a small tank > (such as a ten gallon or less), and just moving most of it to the main > tank with the frogs now and then. People with goldfish will often do > this, as goldfish love to eat duck weed. When you do your water changes > just fill the 10 gallon with removed tank water (that way the duck weed > gets plenty of nutrients to grow with), or you could keep some small > fish in the smaller tank, but they might not produce enough waste for > the duck weed. In my tanks the duck weed just takes over and pretty soon > the lower plants aren't getting enough light to survive. So I have to > scoop a bunch out of most of my tanks on a monthly (or sooner) basis. > They would probably eat water lettuce (also known as wisteria), faster > than it can grow. > Try checking out www.plantgeek.net to see what types of plants they have > in the "floating" category, that may help you out a little. > > Amber > > On 4/18/2011 3:02 PM, erika77andnewton91 wrote: > > > > problem you'll probably have is the plants not surviving the frogs. > > they'll eat, or attempt to eat, anything they can shove in their > > mouths. i know they aren't aquatic, but i had good success with pothos > > with my frogs. they found them to be unpalatable. i had tried > > anacharis and such but the frogs decided they looked and tasted yummy. > > > > erika newark de > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mark" <speerwashere@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a 55 gallon aquarium with 3 African Clawed Frogs, and I was > > wondering what kind of floating plant would work best. My light is a > > 35 watt coolwhite sitting on glass. I run the light 8-10 hours a day > > then my blue LEDS for 2-3 hours a night. Water temp aroud 70 degrees, > > 6.4-6.8 ph if that matters. > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51103	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium

My opinion is that you do not keep fish with crayfish unless they are intended as feeder fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium I have marmorkrebs (aka marbled crayfish) - the ones said to be the most peaceful. They don't eat their young, but when I put White Cloud Minnows with them they did try to eat them - one had part of its face eaten off, another just last night was pinched badly in the middle so it is bruised terribly - we're not sure if it will survive or not. Yet another one just disappeared one day. I had baby crayfish in my betta fry tanks, to eat any missed food and keep it clean. I found out later they were eating the fins on the bettas when they were asleep. I thought the fin damage was from them fighting until my daughter saw one grab one one time, then I removed them but not before one caught one poor girl and ate almost all of her fins off of her - thankfully she recovered. We've had guppies and goldfish with crayfish before and they were never injured or eaten, tho. The American cray would set traps - put a piece of food outside his cave entrance and wait with both claws ready to grab a guppy as it came to eat, but the guppies were too smart for him and never got caught. I think the difference is you need very wary fish. Crayfish are usually nocturnal, but the damage to the minnows was during the day, not at night. Crayfish do make interesting pets, some will remodel your tank to make themselves caves. Some can learn to come eat out of your hands. They seem to be pretty smart. The marmorkrebs clone themselves so if you get one you soon get overrun with them. We tried feeding some juveniles to our Jack Dempsey. They survived in the tank with the JD for a long time then one day the JD would decide it was time for fresh meat. We fed the babies to the African cichlids and they never even reach the bottom of the tank. I've read crayfish are safe with most fish but cichlids learn to flip them over and eat from the soft underside. Not my JD, I think he waited until they molted because he took bites right off of the tail. Angelfish are vicious hunters too and I wouldn't put a crayfish in with them. As for the colors, some of that is dependent on food and background/light. Marmokrebs can range from bright orange to blue, and it has to do with the amount of certain nutrients in the food (astaxanthin??) and if you raise them in the dark they turn blue (but then you can't grow plants to feed them). Normally they're a kind of brown/orange color. Even shrimp are highly reactive to the foods, my Red Cherry Shrimp have been eating color-enhancing food with astaxanthin and they turned bright bright red/orange but some I put in a fry tank are almost clear (they get the microworms the fry miss). - R --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Roy" <rahul@...> wrote: > > Recently many different coloured Cray fish, normally called here Fresh Water Lobster have been imported by Aquarium shops, mostly from Thailand and Taiwan. The opinion of aquarists here about their behaviour with other fish is varied. Some swear they have no problem but some say these creature injure other aquarium fish and even eat small fish. I would like to hear views of those who have some experience in this. > > Ken Roy > > Lahore, Pakistan > > www.kendensar.info > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51104	From: joe t	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

I believe you are right, Karlene. "Not being stupid" was repeated a few times in her tirade and nowhere in the whole discussion did anyone say anything about being stupid. (Frustrated, maybe, from not knowing how to word the question and therefore not being understood; but not stupid.) I am sure all answers were well intended, but if the question is vague guessing what to answer is very difficult. joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51105	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium

I agree with Steve on this one... crayfish are opportunistic feeders and will eat it if they can catch it, and if they can't catch it they usually still cause damage when they try. For those who successfully keep fish with their crayfish, its more luck than skill. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > My opinion is that you do not keep fish with crayfish unless they are > intended as feeder fish. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium > > I have marmorkrebs (aka marbled crayfish) - the ones said to be the most > peaceful. They don't eat their young, but when I put White Cloud Minnows > with them they did try to eat them - one had part of its face eaten off, > another just last night was pinched badly in the middle so it is bruised > terribly - we're not sure if it will survive or not. Yet another one just > disappeared one day. > > I had baby crayfish in my betta fry tanks, to eat any missed food and keep > it clean. I found out later they were eating the fins on the bettas when > they were asleep. I thought the fin damage was from them fighting until my > daughter saw one grab one one time, then I removed them but not before one > caught one poor girl and ate almost all of her fins off of her - thankfully > she recovered. > > We've had guppies and goldfish with crayfish before and they were never > injured or eaten, tho. The American cray would set traps - put a piece of > food outside his cave entrance and wait with both claws ready to grab a > guppy as it came to eat, but the guppies were too smart for him and never > got caught. > > I think the difference is you need very wary fish. Crayfish are usually > nocturnal, but the damage to the minnows was during the day, not at night. > > Crayfish do make interesting pets, some will remodel your tank to make > themselves caves. Some can learn to come eat out of your hands. They seem > to be pretty smart. > > The marmorkrebs clone themselves so if you get one you soon get overrun with > them. We tried feeding some juveniles to our Jack Dempsey. They survived > in the tank with the JD for a long time then one day the JD would decide it > was time for fresh meat. We fed the babies to the African cichlids and they > never even reach the bottom of the tank. I've read crayfish are safe with > most fish but cichlids learn to flip them over and eat from the soft > underside. Not my JD, I think he waited until they molted because he took > bites right off of the tail. Angelfish are vicious hunters too and I > wouldn't put a crayfish in with them. > > As for the colors, some of that is dependent on food and background/light. > Marmokrebs can range from bright orange to blue, and it has to do with the > amount of certain nutrients in the food (astaxanthin??) and if you raise > them in the dark they turn blue (but then you can't grow plants to feed > them). Normally they're a kind of brown/orange color. Even shrimp are > highly reactive to the foods, my Red Cherry Shrimp have been eating > color-enhancing food with astaxanthin and they turned bright bright > red/orange but some I put in a fry tank are almost clear (they get the > microworms the fry miss). > > - R > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Roy" <rahul@> wrote: > > > > Recently many different coloured Cray fish, normally called here Fresh > Water Lobster have been imported by Aquarium shops, mostly from Thailand and > Taiwan. The opinion of aquarists here about their behaviour with other fish > is varied. Some swear they have no problem but some say these creature > injure other aquarium fish and even eat small fish. I would like to hear > views of those who have some experience in this. > > > > Ken Roy > > > > Lahore, Pakistan > > > > www.kendensar.info > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51106	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium

I used to have a crayfish ("blue lobster") who came to be mine after he tried to eat the original purchasers "prized" goldfish. seems petco told her he would be fine with the goldfish. he was really cool. also very useful for disposing of snails that make their way to other tanks with the live plants. just scoop out the snails and toss them in his tank:-) erika newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > My opinion is that you do not keep fish with crayfish unless they are > intended as feeder fish. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 4:52 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cray Fish in Fresh Water Aquarium > > I have marmorkrebs (aka marbled crayfish) - the ones said to be the most > peaceful. They don't eat their young, but when I put White Cloud Minnows > with them they did try to eat them - one had part of its face eaten off, > another just last night was pinched badly in the middle so it is bruised > terribly - we're not sure if it will survive or not. Yet another one just > disappeared one day. > > I had baby crayfish in my betta fry tanks, to eat any missed food and keep > it clean. I found out later they were eating the fins on the bettas when > they were asleep. I thought the fin damage was from them fighting until my > daughter saw one grab one one time, then I removed them but not before one > caught one poor girl and ate almost all of her fins off of her - thankfully > she recovered. > > We've had guppies and goldfish with crayfish before and they were never > injured or eaten, tho. The American cray would set traps - put a piece of > food outside his cave entrance and wait with both claws ready to grab a > guppy as it came to eat, but the guppies were too smart for him and never > got caught. > > I think the difference is you need very wary fish. Crayfish are usually > nocturnal, but the damage to the minnows was during the day, not at night. > > Crayfish do make interesting pets, some will remodel your tank to make > themselves caves. Some can learn to come eat out of your hands. They seem > to be pretty smart. > > The marmorkrebs clone themselves so if you get one you soon get overrun with > them. We tried feeding some juveniles to our Jack Dempsey. They survived > in the tank with the JD for a long time then one day the JD would decide it > was time for fresh meat. We fed the babies to the African cichlids and they > never even reach the bottom of the tank. I've read crayfish are safe with > most fish but cichlids learn to flip them over and eat from the soft > underside. Not my JD, I think he waited until they molted because he took > bites right off of the tail. Angelfish are vicious hunters too and I > wouldn't put a crayfish in with them. > > As for the colors, some of that is dependent on food and background/light. > Marmokrebs can range from bright orange to blue, and it has to do with the > amount of certain nutrients in the food (astaxanthin??) and if you raise > them in the dark they turn blue (but then you can't grow plants to feed > them). Normally they're a kind of brown/orange color. Even shrimp are > highly reactive to the foods, my Red Cherry Shrimp have been eating > color-enhancing food with astaxanthin and they turned bright bright > red/orange but some I put in a fry tank are almost clear (they get the > microworms the fry miss). > > - R > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Roy" <rahul@> wrote: > > > > Recently many different coloured Cray fish, normally called here Fresh > Water Lobster have been imported by Aquarium shops, mostly from Thailand and > Taiwan. The opinion of aquarists here about their behaviour with other fish > is varied. Some swear they have no problem but some say these creature > injure other aquarium fish and even eat small fish. I would like to hear > views of those who have some experience in this. > > > > Ken Roy > > > > Lahore, Pakistan > > > > www.kendensar.info > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51107	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: ideas for a cold water 55 gallon

the ghost shrimp do well, until the newt finds them:-)one store i used to get them from keeps his in salted water, those never survived the change. the ones i get from the store who keeps them in fresh water last a good while. I do have guppies in there just wanted something...more... now i have a pretty good list of fish to look into...yaaayyy..:-) for the record i dont see anything remotely attractive about glow fish... erika newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I've been keeping some guppies in a room temp. tank all winter and they're doing fine. They just don't seem to have babies at cold temps, which is fine by me, I've been there, done the the millions of guppy fry thing. > > You can also look at some of the cool native American fish. On aquabid some interesting ones come up that are pretty colorful and some stay small. > > A site I was looking at said ghost shrimp can live at cool temps too. I had a couple in a bowl (test to see if they'd eat some algae that was in there) and they both died a lot sooner than I expected, so I'm not sure about that, but maybe the bowl needed more water changes than what I did (I forgot it for periods of time). > > Bloodfin tetras are supposed to be able to handle temps into the mid-60's, as are danios, regular and pearl. Since glofish are just genetically modified danios, I'd guess they would be ok too if you want man-made freaks in your tank. > > If you're doing live feeding anyway for the newt, a dragonfish might be a cool addition. We were at That Fish Place today and saw some, they were really cool looking. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "erika77andnewton91" <e.isme@> wrote: > > > > > > <<For a tank that will be no more than room temperature (actually a temperate > > water tank) fish that you might want to consider are white cloud mountain > > fish and paradise fish, both of which will do well at room temperature. > > Medekas also come to mind.>> > > > > > > > > lol! youve never felt my house in the winter:-) but yes temperate water tank. thanks, i'll wander down to my LFS and see if they have them. > > > > > > > > > > <<As for broad leaved plants, you'll need to look through a good plant book to > > see what fits the bill (though maybe a few here could help you out on that) > > and then determine their availability in your area. Other plants you can use > > include anacharis (elodea) and Cabomba carolinas (sp?). This species of > > cabomba comes from the Carolinas (gee, could you guess from the name?) and > > should do well in that range of temperature.>> > > > > > > > > I have decided I am the only person in the world who can kill anacharis. I'll go look up cabomba carolinas:-) > > > > <<A better idea for the newt to hoist himself out of the water is to either > > make the tank into what is known as a paludarium, with areas of water and > > land planted with both aquatic species and terrestrial plants that like to > > get their feet wet, or to build him a shelf where the newt can get out of > > the water if it wishes. The shelf should ramp into the water so it does not > > actually need to climb. I suspect that any broad leaved plant you can find > > that is suitable for tank life would not have the strength or buoyancy to > > support its body weight.>> > > > > > > > > doh!!(smacking forhead) damn it if i had been more patient you just gave me a great idea. I could have siliconed the plastic egg crate stuff for lights to the side just above where the water would go!!! damn it. hmmm...might still be able to do something with it... i had a > > paludarium when i had my fire belly toads years ago and it was a pita to clean and maintain. figured since the newts prefer to be more aquatic i would just set him up with a small something to come out onto. > > > > > > > > > > <<I am just wondering what species of newt you have? I wonder because you > > mentioned cold water/no heater and I know that most newts found in the hobby are > > tropical and need the warmer water to stay healthy and thrive.>> > > > > > > > > he is a firebelly newt. they like cool temperatures. i admit he(and his former tank mate) were an impulse buy. not something i usually do with critters. my plan was to put them in with my nigerian clawed frog. brought them home, THEN did my research. hmmm lets see frog likes 75-78, newt likes cooler than 74, closer to 68. that wasnt gonna work well:-) > > > > > > > > > > > > erika newark de > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51108	From: Mark Hough	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP

the true sadness to this is you have a person here that takes the truthful advice as an insult and she will continue to feel that no matter where she goes. The fish are the ones who are going to suffer. http://www.facebook.com/people/Mark-Hough/546535962 http://www.myspace.com/mhough6229 Mark Hough I'm an agnostic, dyslectic insomniac. I lay awake at night wondering if there really is a doG. I almost had a psychic girlfriend, but she left me before we met. On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:19 PM, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > > > I believe you are right, Karlene. "Not being stupid" was repeated a few > times in her tirade and nowhere in the whole discussion did anyone say > anything about being stupid. (Frustrated, maybe, from not knowing how to > word the question and therefore not being understood; but not stupid.) I am > sure all answers were well intended, but if the question is vague guessing > what to answer is very difficult. > > joe t > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51109	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding

Since giving all the details is important to our understanding, what if we had a form they could go by when giving us their information such as: Kind of fish: Age: Aquarium size: Salt or Freshwater Tank: Last Water Change: PH: Ammonia: Nitrates: Food: How much, how often: Describe symptoms: (i.e. fins clamped together, swimming up and down...) And so forth... Do you think this would help? Maybe someone here such as the moderators can create one and put it up in files then we can send people there to get it and use it as an example. Gail

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51110	From: haecklers	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Columnaris question

I've got a betta fish that has a dark body with a white faded-looking spot on its back, looks a lot like the columnaris "saddle back" spot I've read about. It was slowly getting bigger but I put her in a tank with Maracyn to treat a possible columnaris infection and it seems to be receding. This fish has had the spot for months, it has only slightly increased over time, and the fish is otherwise very healthy and active, tho on the small side compared to her sibs. I read there are 4 kinds of columnaris and type 4 is really slow-growing, so I'm guessing that's what she has. Does that mean the medicine won't kill it as easily? If the white spot doesn't go away does that mean the infection is still there or is it a scarring or permanent depigmentation from the columnaris?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51111	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/20/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding

We might have something like that already, or at least I thought we did. Lenny used to post a list of questions I think. It's been awhile though so I could be wrong. Will have to see if it's in the file section or somewhere. Amber On 4/20/2011 8:38 AM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Since giving all the details is important to our understanding, what if > we had a form they could go by when giving us their information such as: > > Kind of fish: > Age: > Aquarium size: > Salt or Freshwater Tank: > Last Water Change: > PH: > Ammonia: > Nitrates: > Food: > How much, how often: > Describe symptoms: (i.e. fins clamped together, swimming up and down...) > > And so forth... > Do you think this would help? Maybe someone here such as the moderators > can create one and put it up in files then we can send people there to get > it and use it as an example. > > Gail > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51112	From: haecklers	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Dwarf pufferfish

We got a trio of these this week. They REALLY eat A LOT! I thought we had plenty of snails for them but they're eating around 10 each, maybe more, per day. Does anyone else here have any? What do you do if you run out of snails? They sure are cute! Here's a vid we found (not ours) but our puffers act just like this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o1fw9jtRNc

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51113	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X 2'T , ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to freshwater ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the tank we have two big tanks the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath with bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still killing the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. #1- I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash them off first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of the old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our 135gal smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the bacteria, also used 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this tank was all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all large 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank , a real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, can any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in start-up THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51114	From: Bill	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water chemistry!.. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment but API does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X 2'T , ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to freshwater ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the tank we have two big tanks the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath with bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still killing the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. #1- I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash them off first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of the old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our 135gal smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the bacteria, also used 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this tank was all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all large 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank , a real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, can any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in start-up THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51115	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: LEAVING GROUP and Understanding

Hi Gail, A Goldfish forum that I'm involved with plus a friend's Koi helpline use a very similar method for diagnosis & it's an excellent idea. Of course you will always get people who ignore it but on the whole it works great & often you can spot the problem they are describing just by looking at the info they have provided. John*<o)))< * On 20 April 2011 09:38, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> wrote: > > > Since giving all the details is important to our understanding, what if > we had a form they could go by when giving us their information such as: > > Kind of fish: > Age: > Aquarium size: > Salt or Freshwater Tank: > Last Water Change: > PH: > Ammonia: > Nitrates: > Food: > How much, how often: > Describe symptoms: (i.e. fins clamped together, swimming up and down...) > > And so forth... > Do you think this would help? Maybe someone here such as the moderators > can create one and put it up in files then we can send people there to get > it and use it as an example. > > Gail > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51116	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

Right now Foster & Smith has it for $16.79. I just got mine. http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com Gail > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > chemistry!.. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a > $25.00 investment but API does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51117	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

Hi, You really need to read up on fishless cycling, using live fish is cruel-even if they do not die in the process you end up with a number of unwanted & potentially damaged fish. I'm a little concerned too about the desert rock that could be messing up your water chemistry-do you know what type of rocks they are? Regular kitchen & bathroom silicone could possibly contain harmful toxins-even when dry, I wouldn't take that chance. You can get tank safe silicone from your LFS. You also say that you may have rushed things-in my limited experience with fish keeping I have found that things only work out well when you take time & go 'round the houses' rather than short cuts-just my thoughts. John*<o)))< * On 21 April 2011 11:01, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water chemistry!.. > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment but > API > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X > 2'T , > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to > freshwater > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the > tank we have two big tanks > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath > with > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still > killing > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. > #1- > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash > them off > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of > the > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our > 135gal > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the > bacteria, also used > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this > tank was > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all > large > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a > > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank > , a > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, > can > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in > start-up > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51118	From: haecklers	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Egg-eating fish?

I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed for me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating the eggs/fry. Questions: Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? The baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating their tiny eggs.) Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51119	From: Bill	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

There is a commercial grade silicone that is safe for the tank. It's GE Silicone 1.. Pick it up at your local big box home store like Homedepot or Lowes. Be sure is the labeled ONE.. not the 2 (two) for bathroom sealing. You can do a fish cycle that doesn't impact the fish.. It's a bit slower but more natural. After treating the water with a product like Prime by Seachem, you will be removing not only Chlorine but Chloramine and Ammonia. Not really removing it buy making it inert to fish. So now you pretty much have a sterile tank of water. Secure some filter media or substrate (gravel) from a healthy well established tank. Your LFS (local fish store) will be happy to offload a bit for a most a minimal charge. DO NOT use a big box pet store's offerings in this case. They usually have a single source filtration system feeding every tank in the house.. That exposes every fish to every disease that may be brought in by a new shipment. Now that you've got some bacteria coming in via the substrate or the filter media, ya need to provide some food for it. This is ammonia that can be supplied by the application of that chemical or pick up a few cheap fish. Note I said few!... The waste product as well as the uneaten food will provide that ammonia you need. Once the bacteria start working on that, a nitrite will be formed... yet another type of bacteria attack that and turn it into nitrate!.. Which plants consume!.. what a great cycle. I've shortened the response on here and others can chime in on a more definitive explanation but that is the basic premise of how the cycle works. The key here is to keep monitoring your water chemistry!.. Slowly add fish making sure everything stays within acceptable parameters. Sounds complicated I'm sure if your just starting out but it becomes second nature a few days or a week into the process. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 5:49:36 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. Hi, You really need to read up on fishless cycling, using live fish is cruel-even if they do not die in the process you end up with a number of unwanted & potentially damaged fish. I'm a little concerned too about the desert rock that could be messing up your water chemistry-do you know what type of rocks they are? Regular kitchen & bathroom silicone could possibly contain harmful toxins-even when dry, I wouldn't take that chance. You can get tank safe silicone from your LFS. You also say that you may have rushed things-in my limited experience with fish keeping I have found that things only work out well when you take time & go 'round the houses' rather than short cuts-just my thoughts. John*<o)))< * On 21 April 2011 11:01, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water chemistry!.. > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment but > API > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X > 2'T , > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to > freshwater > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the > tank we have two big tanks > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath > with > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still > killing > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. > #1- > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash > them off > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of > the > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our > 135gal > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the > bacteria, also used > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this > tank was > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all > large > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a > > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank > , a > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, > can > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in > start-up > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51120	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf pufferfish

Try asking anyone you know locally that has a pond with live plants. They're likely to have a snail problem too. I have tons of ramshorn and MTS but I'm way up in Alaska. If you run out of snails they MIGHT eat frozen foods, but it might take some work to get them to eat them. They really prefer only live foods from what I have read. Have you checked with your local fish store (LFS) to see if they have any pest snails they might want to get rid of? Amber On 4/21/2011 9:08 AM, haecklers wrote: > > We got a trio of these this week. They REALLY eat A LOT! I thought we > had plenty of snails for them but they're eating around 10 each, maybe > more, per day. > > Does anyone else here have any? What do you do if you run out of snails? > > They sure are cute! Here's a vid we found (not ours) but our puffers > act just like this. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o1fw9jtRNc > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51121	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

You can get a master test kit from walmart.com and order it "ship to store" for pickup locally. THen you don't have to pay any shipping for the item, it tends to be the cheapest way for a test kit that I've seen around. Amber On 4/21/2011 1:23 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Right now Foster & Smith has it for $16.79. I just got mine. > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com > > Gail > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > > chemistry!.. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a > > $25.00 investment but API does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51122	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?

I have a pair of breeding pleco's in with mystery snails (and ramshorn snails), and albino aeneus cory's. I have easily 25+ juvi BN pleco's growing up in the tank, so I am pretty sure that hardly any of the fry were eaten when growing up. Either that or Dad's a really good protector ;) LOL. I'm pretty sure that Angel's will try to eat the fry (they love my guppy fry). My giant danio's also love BN pleco fry (in my 125 gallon tank I have a pair breeding, but not many juvi's, so I know they're getting eaten more in that tank). What kind of cone/cave do you have? My male prefers a cone shaped cave (open only on the wide end) and it's only about 2 inches at the most at the opening (possibly an inch and a half). He wacks the snails with his tail if they get too close to the opening, LOL. I've never had kuhli loaches, but my botia kubotai loaches love fry, but they are bigger than kuhli loaches too. Most any fish will try to eat baby cherry shrimp, I keep my orange eyed tiger shrimp in their own 10 gallon with just 2 mystery snails and some MTS and ramshorn's for company. I'm trying to make sure they have a chance to breed a good bit before I even consider adding any fish to their 10 gallon (if I did they'd be very small fish). Amber On 4/21/2011 3:39 PM, haecklers wrote: > > I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed for > me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating > the eggs/fry. > > Questions: > > Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other > fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've > spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the > cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? > > I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, > and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? The > baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd > be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! > > (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so > I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating > their tiny eggs.) > > Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. > > Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults? > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51123	From: Karlene	Date: 4/21/2011
Subject: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy water before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the top that just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the front of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that way in the morning, poor guy. One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought him, seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but constantly challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or whatever. I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 gallon or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and realized it was really a 50 gallon. My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, ready to use as needed? Thanks for your patience with my questions. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51124	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: United Pet Group recalls 1.2M aquarium heaters

We did have a short discussion about this recall a while back on this list, but details were rather sketchy, and it could not be said with absolute certainty that the recall was true or not. This lends more credibility to the recall. http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/04/21/business-us-aquarium-heater-recall_8428807.html http://tinyurl.com/3tqs587 United Pet Group recalls 1.2M aquarium heaters Associated Press, 04.21.11, 12:54 PM EDT WASHINGTON -- United Pet Group is voluntarily recalling approximately 1.2 million aquarium heaters because of potential fire and laceration hazards. A wiring problem can cause the Marineland Stealth and Stealth Pro aquarium heaters to overheat or break during normal use, damaging the aquarium and posing fire and laceration hazards. Overheating can cause the heater to shatter or the aquarium glass to break. Article Controls The Cincinnati company said Thursday that there have been 38 reports of fires that caused property damage and 45 reports of broken aquarium glass. There has been one report of an eye injury suffered when the heater forcefully broke in a consumer's hands. The heaters are black plastic tubes and have a temperature adjustment knob at the top. The model name "Stealth" appears in white letters or "Stealth Pro" in red letters on the heater's side. The model number and wattage rating are printed below the model name. Stealth Pro heaters were also sold as part of aquarium starter kits. The heaters were sold for between $20 and $300 at pet stores nationwide and online from January 2004 through February 2011. Consumers should immediately stop using the heaters and contact United Pet Group for a free replacement heater or a full refund. The recall announcement was made in conjunction with the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51125	From: Bill	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

Karlene! Great to hear your off to a fresh start and things are going well!...Tank size? The bigger the better! Actually the bigger tanks it takes more for something to get out of wack so easily. What to keep on hand?... Water changes!.. I probably do the fewest on here as I follow a extreme theory on tank maintence than most. I use a method called the Walstad method which has a basic tenet in few if none at all w/c's and in the strictest sense, no filtration systems. It involves potting soil covered by sand and heavily planted. With great precision coming into a perfect balance with the number of fish, plants, water and natural ferts. I cheat a bit and do use some hob filters. So I'll let others chime in on the standard and generally accepted maintenance schedules/supplies. Bill p.s. I'm a big fan of your rams and other SA's (Discus and Angels).. and grow orchids as a hobby too! So watching your plants grow and multiply is a kick too! ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:34:02 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Tank Update, Musings & Questions I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy water before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the top that just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the front of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that way in the morning, poor guy. One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought him, seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but constantly challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or whatever. I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 gallon or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and realized it was really a 50 gallon. My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, ready to use as needed? Thanks for your patience with my questions. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51126	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

Hi Karlene, Just a point about the size of the tank-if everything is working properly in theory the larger tank you have then the less work it is because a bigger volume of water is far more stable & able to cope with minor problems that a smaller one could not. Of course in practise this is not always true! In very simplistic terms-a fish emits a given amount of waste per day. In a half gallon bowl he will pollute it in a matter of hours, in a 100 gallon tank it will take him days before the water is unhealthy. John*<o)))< * On 21 April 2011 22:34, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > > I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy > water > before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. > > The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I > test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants > before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the top > that > just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. > > The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water > issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. > When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the > front > of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue > Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that > way in the morning, poor guy. > > One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to > behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank > where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the > tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought him, > seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at > the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish > spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black > Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but > constantly > challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or > whatever. > > I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so > has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a > larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 gallon > or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a > ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was > interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and > realized it was really a 50 gallon. > > My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are > there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, > ready to use as needed? > > Thanks for your patience with my questions. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51127	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?

Thanks for the reply Amber! I just have a coconut shell cave. It's what they bred in before, but maybe the opening is wrong for protecting the eggs. Did you buy your cone from aquabid? I've seen someone there selling them. I read you can also use PVC but I worry about it adding chemicals to the water. I thought my ancistrus were breeding different colored fry - the parents both have an orangey marbling on them that they had when I got them as small fry but their only surviving baby was dark with regular white spots all over. I just found it again today, tho, and now it is pretty like the parents with the marbling. When mine run out of algae, their favorite food is sinking shrimp pellets! Kind of surprising to me, since I don't think there's even algae in them! You should see the way the baby is growing, tho, eating one of those every day! Well, he shares it with the shrimp and kuhlis. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I have a pair of breeding pleco's in with mystery snails (and ramshorn > snails), and albino aeneus cory's. I have easily 25+ juvi BN pleco's > growing up in the tank, so I am pretty sure that hardly any of the fry > were eaten when growing up. Either that or Dad's a really good protector > ;) LOL. > I'm pretty sure that Angel's will try to eat the fry (they love my guppy > fry). My giant danio's also love BN pleco fry (in my 125 gallon tank I > have a pair breeding, but not many juvi's, so I know they're getting > eaten more in that tank). > What kind of cone/cave do you have? My male prefers a cone shaped cave > (open only on the wide end) and it's only about 2 inches at the most at > the opening (possibly an inch and a half). He wacks the snails with his > tail if they get too close to the opening, LOL. > > I've never had kuhli loaches, but my botia kubotai loaches love fry, but > they are bigger than kuhli loaches too. > Most any fish will try to eat baby cherry shrimp, I keep my orange eyed > tiger shrimp in their own 10 gallon with just 2 mystery snails and some > MTS and ramshorn's for company. I'm trying to make sure they have a > chance to breed a good bit before I even consider adding any fish to > their 10 gallon (if I did they'd be very small fish). > > Amber > > On 4/21/2011 3:39 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed for > > me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating > > the eggs/fry. > > > > Questions: > > > > Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other > > fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've > > spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the > > cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? > > > > I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, > > and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? The > > baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd > > be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! > > > > (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so > > I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating > > their tiny eggs.) > > > > Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. > > > > Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults? > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51128	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?

You can use PVC piping that is made for drinking water (it won't leach any chemicals). But it might be hard to find a small enough and cone shaped cave. What kind of pleco's do you have? I have bristle nose pleco's. I did get my cone from aquabid, it was a pleco "pack" came with a long tube (open on both ends) with only about an inch opening for the juvi pleco's to hide in, I put it near the cone cave so it's easy for them to find it once they leave the breeding cone. For the most part they will stay with dad for a long time, until he starts making them leave his breeding cone. My female's are both brown (with white spots), and I have 2 albino males. All the babies have been brown, no albino's yet that I've seen. Mine get a good mix of foods. I give them the algae wafers, they clean up left over flake foods, I also drop some "catfish" pellets for the cory's, and I have a gel food I bought on aquabid that's got a good portion of algae in it, as well as calcium and other good vitamins. The fish seem to love it. I also have some sample foods that I got from the same person on aquabid when I bought his gel food, and the fish love it even more. I plan on getting more from the guy in the near future. Amber On 4/22/2011 3:50 AM, haecklers wrote: > > Thanks for the reply Amber! > > I just have a coconut shell cave. It's what they bred in before, but > maybe the opening is wrong for protecting the eggs. > > Did you buy your cone from aquabid? I've seen someone there selling > them. I read you can also use PVC but I worry about it adding > chemicals to the water. > > I thought my ancistrus were breeding different colored fry - the > parents both have an orangey marbling on them that they had when I got > them as small fry but their only surviving baby was dark with regular > white spots all over. I just found it again today, tho, and now it is > pretty like the parents with the marbling. > > When mine run out of algae, their favorite food is sinking shrimp > pellets! Kind of surprising to me, since I don't think there's even > algae in them! You should see the way the baby is growing, tho, eating > one of those every day! Well, he shares it with the shrimp and kuhlis. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > I have a pair of breeding pleco's in with mystery snails (and ramshorn > > snails), and albino aeneus cory's. I have easily 25+ juvi BN pleco's > > growing up in the tank, so I am pretty sure that hardly any of the fry > > were eaten when growing up. Either that or Dad's a really good > protector > > ;) LOL. > > I'm pretty sure that Angel's will try to eat the fry (they love my > guppy > > fry). My giant danio's also love BN pleco fry (in my 125 gallon tank I > > have a pair breeding, but not many juvi's, so I know they're getting > > eaten more in that tank). > > What kind of cone/cave do you have? My male prefers a cone shaped cave > > (open only on the wide end) and it's only about 2 inches at the most at > > the opening (possibly an inch and a half). He wacks the snails with his > > tail if they get too close to the opening, LOL. > > > > I've never had kuhli loaches, but my botia kubotai loaches love fry, > but > > they are bigger than kuhli loaches too. > > Most any fish will try to eat baby cherry shrimp, I keep my orange eyed > > tiger shrimp in their own 10 gallon with just 2 mystery snails and some > > MTS and ramshorn's for company. I'm trying to make sure they have a > > chance to breed a good bit before I even consider adding any fish to > > their 10 gallon (if I did they'd be very small fish). > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/21/2011 3:39 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed > for > > > me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating > > > the eggs/fry. > > > > > > Questions: > > > > > > Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other > > > fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've > > > spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the > > > cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? > > > > > > I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, > > > and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? > The > > > baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd > > > be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! > > > > > > (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so > > > I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating > > > their tiny eggs.) > > > > > > Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. > > > > > > Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults? > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51129	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

I also have walstad setups, but I try to do weekly water changes anyway. And my walstad tanks all have at least 1 filter to make sure there's enough oxygen in the water. About all I keep on hand is a water test kit, food, and water conditioners. You could also pick up some meds, but if they aren't used in a certain time frame they will usually expire at some point, so it's nice to know if you have a local store that sells a good selection of fish meds in case you need to run out and get them all of a sudden. My only concern for Karlene is having a male betta in with females. If you have enough hiding places and a big enough tank (so that they don't run into each other all the time), they may not try to kill each other. Sometimes they will do okay in this type of setup, and other times they will still try to kill each other, so watch your betta's carefully and if you see any of them getting picked on too much (with too much fin damage, etc) I would pull the male out and put him in a large (1 gallon or more) bowl if you can. And I agree with Bill, the bigger the tank the easier it is to fix a problem most of the time, especially when it comes to water clarity. As long as you don't overstock the tank of course, then you'll have to do more water changes (more often than just weekly). Amber On 4/21/2011 10:00 PM, Bill wrote: > > Karlene! Great to hear your off to a fresh start and things are going > well!...Tank size? The bigger the better! Actually the bigger tanks it > takes > more for something to get out of wack so easily. What to keep on > hand?... Water > changes!.. I probably do the fewest on here as I follow a extreme > theory on tank > maintence than most. I use a method called the Walstad method which > has a basic > tenet in few if none at all w/c's and in the strictest sense, no > filtration > systems. It involves potting soil covered by sand and heavily planted. > With > great precision coming into a perfect balance with the number of fish, > plants, > water and natural ferts. I cheat a bit and do use some hob filters. So > I'll > let others chime in on the standard and generally accepted maintenance > schedules/supplies. Bill > p.s. I'm a big fan of your rams and other SA's (Discus and Angels).. > and grow > orchids as a hobby too! So watching your plants grow and multiply is a > kick > too! > > ________________________________ > From: Karlene <tarkom@... <mailto:tarkom%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:34:02 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tank Update, Musings & Questions > > I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy > water > before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. > > The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I > test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants > before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the > top that > just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. > > The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water > issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. > When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the > front > of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue > Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that > way in the morning, poor guy. > > One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to > behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank > where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the > tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought > him, > seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at > the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish > spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black > Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but > constantly > challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or > whatever. > > I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so > has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a > larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 > gallon > or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a > ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was > interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and > realized it was really a 50 gallon. > > My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are > there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, > ready to use as needed? > > Thanks for your patience with my questions. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51130	From: Karlene	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

Hi Amber. I admit I'm new to all of this, but I did some research and talked to "fishy" people before I added the female bettas. The tank is a 20 gallon, and it has lots of plants and other places to hide. I bought 2 girls, so if he did get amorous he wouldn't wear one of them out. They seem to have adapted to one another well. Initially he kept displaying for the two of them, but now they pretty much ignore each other. One of my Platies was dead this morning, and I have no idea why. He was fine yesterday, and dead this morning. I pulled him out and studied him and ddin't see any obvious sign of anything, so who knows. Maybe it was just his time. ~Karlene On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...>wrote: > > > My only concern for Karlene is having a male betta in with females. If > you have enough hiding places and a big enough tank (so that they don't > run into each other all the time), they may not try to kill each other. > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51131	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: mystery sponge

hi all. my in-laws came back from wintering in florida and brought me back a sponge they got at a pet store that is supposed to be for fish tanks; but being my carefull self i thought i would ask if anyone knew if it is safe for a freshwater tank?...not safe?...safe but not worth the trouble keeping it clean?....you get the picture... i put a pic of it in the photos section under al_keep_fish. thanks all.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51132	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

That bigger tank theory only works if you then stay out of fish stores - otherwise you see some cool fish and start thinking "I could fit that one in" And then you have a very large tank needing frequent water changes! If you want to breed fish or save fry from fish that breed, it may be good to have a 10-gallon tank on hand with a sponge filter, too. This can double as a hospital tank, and the best way to do that is to run the sponge filter in the tank you have now so all you have to do is pull it out and put it in the hospital tank whenever a fish gets sick or injured. You can also use it as a quarantine tank, and if the fish does turn out to die or have something bad, the sponges are cheap and easy to replace. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I also have walstad setups, but I try to do weekly water changes anyway. > And my walstad tanks all have at least 1 filter to make sure there's > enough oxygen in the water. > About all I keep on hand is a water test kit, food, and water > conditioners. You could also pick up some meds, but if they aren't used > in a certain time frame they will usually expire at some point, so it's > nice to know if you have a local store that sells a good selection of > fish meds in case you need to run out and get them all of a sudden. > My only concern for Karlene is having a male betta in with females. If > you have enough hiding places and a big enough tank (so that they don't > run into each other all the time), they may not try to kill each other. > Sometimes they will do okay in this type of setup, and other times they > will still try to kill each other, so watch your betta's carefully and > if you see any of them getting picked on too much (with too much fin > damage, etc) I would pull the male out and put him in a large (1 gallon > or more) bowl if you can. > And I agree with Bill, the bigger the tank the easier it is to fix a > problem most of the time, especially when it comes to water clarity. As > long as you don't overstock the tank of course, then you'll have to do > more water changes (more often than just weekly). > > Amber > > On 4/21/2011 10:00 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > Karlene! Great to hear your off to a fresh start and things are going > > well!...Tank size? The bigger the better! Actually the bigger tanks it > > takes > > more for something to get out of wack so easily. What to keep on > > hand?... Water > > changes!.. I probably do the fewest on here as I follow a extreme > > theory on tank > > maintence than most. I use a method called the Walstad method which > > has a basic > > tenet in few if none at all w/c's and in the strictest sense, no > > filtration > > systems. It involves potting soil covered by sand and heavily planted. > > With > > great precision coming into a perfect balance with the number of fish, > > plants, > > water and natural ferts. I cheat a bit and do use some hob filters. So > > I'll > > let others chime in on the standard and generally accepted maintenance > > schedules/supplies. Bill > > p.s. I'm a big fan of your rams and other SA's (Discus and Angels).. > > and grow > > orchids as a hobby too! So watching your plants grow and multiply is a > > kick > > too! > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Karlene <tarkom@... <mailto:tarkom%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:34:02 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tank Update, Musings & Questions > > > > I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy > > water > > before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. > > > > The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I > > test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants > > before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the > > top that > > just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. > > > > The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water > > issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. > > When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the > > front > > of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue > > Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that > > way in the morning, poor guy. > > > > One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to > > behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank > > where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the > > tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought > > him, > > seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at > > the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish > > spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black > > Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but > > constantly > > challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or > > whatever. > > > > I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so > > has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a > > larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 > > gallon > > or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a > > ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was > > interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and > > realized it was really a 50 gallon. > > > > My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are > > there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, > > ready to use as needed? > > > > Thanks for your patience with my questions. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51133	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Update: hydra in the fry tank

I had a pearl gourami fry tank that I discovered had hydra in it. I think they came from some green water I got from outside. The tank had 2 ages of fry, about 10 days apart in age - 26 older ones and around 100 of the younger ones. I also added one zebra danio fry (same age as the older gourami) and one baby guppy - same size as the older fry. When I discovered the hydra, I put in some crayfish (2 babies, around .5"), 3 red cherry shrimps, and a couple kinds of snails - mostly ramshorns. The hydra seemed to like the snails - I then saw hydra riding on the snail shells, some of the larger snails had 3-4 hydra on them. The crayfish died (stung?) but the shrimp are doing ok, tho I don't think they eat hydra. The older gourami fry avoided the hydra, but I think the hydra ate a fair number of the younger ones - every day there were fewer of the newly hatched fry and more hydra. Finally the fry were too big to be eaten, but I was down to only 2 of the smaller ones. The danio may have been eating the smaller fry too, I saw some suspicious behavior. Last week I got low on microworms (didn't start a new culture in time!) so I was feeding them Golden Pearls to make up the difference (which the gourami don't like). In about 3 days they ate all the hydra. Now I can't find a single one, and there were at least 50 in there before. I think the gourami are the ones that ate them. I only lost 1 of the larger gourami - I found it dead on the bottom in the morning. I don't know if it got stung by a hydra or if it died for some other reason. I still have 25 of the larger gourami fry and the 2 small ones, plus the shrimp, danio, and guppy. I haven't found hydra in any of the other tanks (thankfully!). BTW, the shrimp and ramshorns are keeping the fry tank spotless!!! No algae, mulm, or even visible poos. I'll use them in all of my fry tanks in the future!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51134	From: haecklers	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?

Have you tried that plecocoaine? I keep reading about it and am tempted but my fish are so easy to feed, I haven't yet decided it's worth the money. I don't know what kind mine are, I got them from a hobbyist who said they had an "L number" but he didn't remember what it was. He had the marbled brown ones and albinos, and I think they were inter-breeding because half the babies I saw were albino, which means both parents were carrying the gene, I think. I looked at a site once and found a kind I think they are, it said only 3 strains breed well in captivity and this was one of them and it had the marbling. It was ancistrus triradiatus. They look like the one here: http://www.alquimistadeacuarios.com/peces/detalle_pez.php?id=114 but when they are relaxed the marbling is much showier (when they are stressed they lose the marbling and are just spotted) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > You can use PVC piping that is made for drinking water (it won't leach > any chemicals). But it might be hard to find a small enough and cone > shaped cave. What kind of pleco's do you have? I have bristle nose pleco's. > I did get my cone from aquabid, it was a pleco "pack" came with a long > tube (open on both ends) with only about an inch opening for the juvi > pleco's to hide in, I put it near the cone cave so it's easy for them to > find it once they leave the breeding cone. For the most part they will > stay with dad for a long time, until he starts making them leave his > breeding cone. > My female's are both brown (with white spots), and I have 2 albino > males. All the babies have been brown, no albino's yet that I've seen. > Mine get a good mix of foods. I give them the algae wafers, they clean > up left over flake foods, I also drop some "catfish" pellets for the > cory's, and I have a gel food I bought on aquabid that's got a good > portion of algae in it, as well as calcium and other good vitamins. The > fish seem to love it. I also have some sample foods that I got from the > same person on aquabid when I bought his gel food, and the fish love it > even more. I plan on getting more from the guy in the near future. > > Amber > > On 4/22/2011 3:50 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > Thanks for the reply Amber! > > > > I just have a coconut shell cave. It's what they bred in before, but > > maybe the opening is wrong for protecting the eggs. > > > > Did you buy your cone from aquabid? I've seen someone there selling > > them. I read you can also use PVC but I worry about it adding > > chemicals to the water. > > > > I thought my ancistrus were breeding different colored fry - the > > parents both have an orangey marbling on them that they had when I got > > them as small fry but their only surviving baby was dark with regular > > white spots all over. I just found it again today, tho, and now it is > > pretty like the parents with the marbling. > > > > When mine run out of algae, their favorite food is sinking shrimp > > pellets! Kind of surprising to me, since I don't think there's even > > algae in them! You should see the way the baby is growing, tho, eating > > one of those every day! Well, he shares it with the shrimp and kuhlis. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a pair of breeding pleco's in with mystery snails (and ramshorn > > > snails), and albino aeneus cory's. I have easily 25+ juvi BN pleco's > > > growing up in the tank, so I am pretty sure that hardly any of the fry > > > were eaten when growing up. Either that or Dad's a really good > > protector > > > ;) LOL. > > > I'm pretty sure that Angel's will try to eat the fry (they love my > > guppy > > > fry). My giant danio's also love BN pleco fry (in my 125 gallon tank I > > > have a pair breeding, but not many juvi's, so I know they're getting > > > eaten more in that tank). > > > What kind of cone/cave do you have? My male prefers a cone shaped cave > > > (open only on the wide end) and it's only about 2 inches at the most at > > > the opening (possibly an inch and a half). He wacks the snails with his > > > tail if they get too close to the opening, LOL. > > > > > > I've never had kuhli loaches, but my botia kubotai loaches love fry, > > but > > > they are bigger than kuhli loaches too. > > > Most any fish will try to eat baby cherry shrimp, I keep my orange eyed > > > tiger shrimp in their own 10 gallon with just 2 mystery snails and some > > > MTS and ramshorn's for company. I'm trying to make sure they have a > > > chance to breed a good bit before I even consider adding any fish to > > > their 10 gallon (if I did they'd be very small fish). > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 4/21/2011 3:39 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > > > I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed > > for > > > > me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating > > > > the eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > Questions: > > > > > > > > Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other > > > > fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've > > > > spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the > > > > cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? > > > > > > > > I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, > > > > and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? > > The > > > > baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd > > > > be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! > > > > > > > > (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so > > > > I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating > > > > their tiny eggs.) > > > > > > > > Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. > > > > > > > > Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51135	From: William M	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Virginia Area?

I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51136	From: Bill	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions

Haecklers... ya nailed it there!... There always looks like room for another fish or two or three.. That's when MTS kicks in... Multi Tank Syndrome!... So it does come down to a personal judgement. If ya wanna add a fish or two.. monitor the water daily for the first week or two... If you've exceeded the balance, you'll see some result changes.. a spike in ammonia?.. Then it's up to you to decide if you want to do a lot of intervention of water changes often... Else,,, pick up that next tank ya been eying and off load the new arrivals into the new one!...<grin> Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 11:21:58 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tank Update, Musings & Questions That bigger tank theory only works if you then stay out of fish stores - otherwise you see some cool fish and start thinking "I could fit that one in" And then you have a very large tank needing frequent water changes! If you want to breed fish or save fry from fish that breed, it may be good to have a 10-gallon tank on hand with a sponge filter, too. This can double as a hospital tank, and the best way to do that is to run the sponge filter in the tank you have now so all you have to do is pull it out and put it in the hospital tank whenever a fish gets sick or injured. You can also use it as a quarantine tank, and if the fish does turn out to die or have something bad, the sponges are cheap and easy to replace. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I also have walstad setups, but I try to do weekly water changes anyway. > And my walstad tanks all have at least 1 filter to make sure there's > enough oxygen in the water. > About all I keep on hand is a water test kit, food, and water > conditioners. You could also pick up some meds, but if they aren't used > in a certain time frame they will usually expire at some point, so it's > nice to know if you have a local store that sells a good selection of > fish meds in case you need to run out and get them all of a sudden. > My only concern for Karlene is having a male betta in with females. If > you have enough hiding places and a big enough tank (so that they don't > run into each other all the time), they may not try to kill each other. > Sometimes they will do okay in this type of setup, and other times they > will still try to kill each other, so watch your betta's carefully and > if you see any of them getting picked on too much (with too much fin > damage, etc) I would pull the male out and put him in a large (1 gallon > or more) bowl if you can. > And I agree with Bill, the bigger the tank the easier it is to fix a > problem most of the time, especially when it comes to water clarity. As > long as you don't overstock the tank of course, then you'll have to do > more water changes (more often than just weekly). > > Amber > > On 4/21/2011 10:00 PM, Bill wrote: > > > > Karlene! Great to hear your off to a fresh start and things are going > > well!...Tank size? The bigger the better! Actually the bigger tanks it > > takes > > more for something to get out of wack so easily. What to keep on > > hand?... Water > > changes!.. I probably do the fewest on here as I follow a extreme > > theory on tank > > maintence than most. I use a method called the Walstad method which > > has a basic > > tenet in few if none at all w/c's and in the strictest sense, no > > filtration > > systems. It involves potting soil covered by sand and heavily planted. > > With > > great precision coming into a perfect balance with the number of fish, > > plants, > > water and natural ferts. I cheat a bit and do use some hob filters. So > > I'll > > let others chime in on the standard and generally accepted maintenance > > schedules/supplies. Bill > > p.s. I'm a big fan of your rams and other SA's (Discus and Angels).. > > and grow > > orchids as a hobby too! So watching your plants grow and multiply is a > > kick > > too! > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Karlene <tarkom@... <mailto:tarkom%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, April 22, 2011 1:34:02 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tank Update, Musings & Questions > > > > I jsut wanted to thank everyone again for your input when I had cloudy > > water > > before, and let you know that everything in the tank seems stablized. > > > > The levels of everything have been right where they should be everytime I > > test. (How often should I test, anyway?) I've never had real plants > > before, but I have lots of them in this tank, including some at the > > top that > > just floats. I enjoy watching the fish nibble at the plants. > > > > The last fish I lost was several days ago, and that was not due to a water > > issue, but a fishkeeping issue on my part and a stupidity issue on his. > > When I added the live plants I moved one of the rock formations to the > > front > > of the tank, and part of it was right against the glass. My dwarf blue > > Gorami swam between the rock and the glass and got stuck. I found him that > > way in the morning, poor guy. > > > > One thing that I've found interesting is that none of the fish seem to > > behave as I expected. For example, no one swims in the area of the tank > > where I thought they would. The betta spends little time at the top of the > > tank, and after a brief flirtation period with the two girls I brought > > him, > > seems to ignore them completely. The dwarf ram chiclids don't hang out at > > the bottom of the tank, but explore the whole thing. The two Angelfish > > spend most of their time together, which I didn't expect. And the black > > Molly and dalmation Molly don't bother any of the other fish, but > > constantly > > challange one another over food, some specific spot in the tank or > > whatever. > > > > I've really been enjoying watching the fishy dynamics, and surprisingly so > > has my husband. He's even somewhat encouraged me to go ahead and get a > > larger tank; I'm searching Craig's list and the classifieds for a 55 > > gallon > > or larger tank. At what size does a tank go from an enjoyable pastime to a > > ton of work? I found one person advertising a 75 gallon tank and I was > > interested in it, until I looked at the measurements she was giving and > > realized it was really a 50 gallon. > > > > My other question is what I should have on hand to care for my tank. Are > > there any medications, chemicals, etc. that I should have here as staples, > > ready to use as needed? > > > > Thanks for your patience with my questions. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51137	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge

Hi Al, Personally I wouldn't for 2 reasons-firstly it's been in an unknown aquatic environment & could possibly harbour & transfer something nasty to your tank-even if it has dried out & secondly it looks like it could do some damage to delicate passing fins & that hole is a potential trap. John*<o)))< *On 22 April 2011 09:48, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > hi all. > my in-laws came back from wintering in florida and brought me back a > sponge they got at a pet store that is supposed to be for fish tanks; > but being my carefull self i thought i would ask if anyone knew if it is > safe for a freshwater tank?...not safe?...safe but not worth the trouble > keeping it clean?....you get the picture... > i put a pic of it in the photos section under al_keep_fish. > thanks all. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51138	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/22/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge

thanks john. sorry i forgot to say its from the gulf of mexico...if that makes a difference. thats not a hole. its two branches that that could be bent out when it softened up. i just thought also ... it may have a bit of gulf oil or dispersant in it. hmmm... dont wanna use it unless you folks figured it was safe.... hopefully the in-laws dont ask about it next time there over..... :- )>>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, > > Personally I wouldn't for 2 reasons-firstly it's been in an unknown > aquatic environment & could possibly harbour & transfer something nasty to > your tank-even if it has dried out & secondly it looks like it could do some > damage to delicate passing fins & that hole is a potential trap. > > John*<o)))< > > *On 22 April 2011 09:48, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > > > > > hi all. > > my in-laws came back from wintering in florida and brought me back a > > sponge they got at a pet store that is supposed to be for fish tanks; > > but being my carefull self i thought i would ask if anyone knew if it is > > safe for a freshwater tank?...not safe?...safe but not worth the trouble > > keeping it clean?....you get the picture... > > i put a pic of it in the photos section under al_keep_fish. > > thanks all. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51139	From: Jessica	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51140	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge

No, not safe for a freshwater aquarium. That appears to be a dead orange branch sponge and it will disintegrate if kept in a fresh water tank, meaning it would disappear and leave you with a nasty organic mess in your tank which could cause a whole list of issues. The best thing to do with it (so as not to waste the money spent on it) would be to dry it out and display it as a knick knack. That is about all its good for. In marine tanks that is one of the more difficult species to keep alive. BTW, nice looking piece, too bad its dead. I love those kinds of challenges in my tanks... have a few different species of sponge growing in my reef now. Hope this has helped. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > thanks john. > sorry i forgot to say its from the gulf of mexico...if that makes a difference. > thats not a hole. its two branches that that could be bent out when it softened up. > i just thought also ... it may have a bit of gulf oil or dispersant in it. > hmmm... dont wanna use it unless you folks figured it was safe.... > hopefully the in-laws dont ask about it next time there over..... > :- )>>> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Al, > > > > Personally I wouldn't for 2 reasons-firstly it's been in an unknown > > aquatic environment & could possibly harbour & transfer something nasty to > > your tank-even if it has dried out & secondly it looks like it could do some > > damage to delicate passing fins & that hole is a potential trap. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > *On 22 April 2011 09:48, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > hi all. > > > my in-laws came back from wintering in florida and brought me back a > > > sponge they got at a pet store that is supposed to be for fish tanks; > > > but being my carefull self i thought i would ask if anyone knew if it is > > > safe for a freshwater tank?...not safe?...safe but not worth the trouble > > > keeping it clean?....you get the picture... > > > i put a pic of it in the photos section under al_keep_fish. > > > thanks all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51141	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Egg-eating fish?

Finding the right diameter of PVC pipe that can be used for potable water should not be that difficult. Finding it in a convenient size( Length) may be. You may end up with a length good for 6-12 caves. Of course, as the saying goes, the more, the merrier. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 9:56 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Egg-eating fish? You can use PVC piping that is made for drinking water (it won't leach any chemicals). But it might be hard to find a small enough and cone shaped cave. What kind of pleco's do you have? I have bristle nose pleco's. I did get my cone from aquabid, it was a pleco "pack" came with a long tube (open on both ends) with only about an inch opening for the juvi pleco's to hide in, I put it near the cone cave so it's easy for them to find it once they leave the breeding cone. For the most part they will stay with dad for a long time, until he starts making them leave his breeding cone. My female's are both brown (with white spots), and I have 2 albino males. All the babies have been brown, no albino's yet that I've seen. Mine get a good mix of foods. I give them the algae wafers, they clean up left over flake foods, I also drop some "catfish" pellets for the cory's, and I have a gel food I bought on aquabid that's got a good portion of algae in it, as well as calcium and other good vitamins. The fish seem to love it. I also have some sample foods that I got from the same person on aquabid when I bought his gel food, and the fish love it even more. I plan on getting more from the guy in the near future. Amber On 4/22/2011 3:50 AM, haecklers wrote: > > Thanks for the reply Amber! > > I just have a coconut shell cave. It's what they bred in before, but > maybe the opening is wrong for protecting the eggs. > > Did you buy your cone from aquabid? I've seen someone there selling > them. I read you can also use PVC but I worry about it adding > chemicals to the water. > > I thought my ancistrus were breeding different colored fry - the > parents both have an orangey marbling on them that they had when I got > them as small fry but their only surviving baby was dark with regular > white spots all over. I just found it again today, tho, and now it is > pretty like the parents with the marbling. > > When mine run out of algae, their favorite food is sinking shrimp > pellets! Kind of surprising to me, since I don't think there's even > algae in them! You should see the way the baby is growing, tho, eating > one of those every day! Well, he shares it with the shrimp and kuhlis. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > I have a pair of breeding pleco's in with mystery snails (and ramshorn > > snails), and albino aeneus cory's. I have easily 25+ juvi BN pleco's > > growing up in the tank, so I am pretty sure that hardly any of the fry > > were eaten when growing up. Either that or Dad's a really good > protector > > ;) LOL. > > I'm pretty sure that Angel's will try to eat the fry (they love my > guppy > > fry). My giant danio's also love BN pleco fry (in my 125 gallon tank I > > have a pair breeding, but not many juvi's, so I know they're getting > > eaten more in that tank). > > What kind of cone/cave do you have? My male prefers a cone shaped cave > > (open only on the wide end) and it's only about 2 inches at the most at > > the opening (possibly an inch and a half). He wacks the snails with his > > tail if they get too close to the opening, LOL. > > > > I've never had kuhli loaches, but my botia kubotai loaches love fry, > but > > they are bigger than kuhli loaches too. > > Most any fish will try to eat baby cherry shrimp, I keep my orange eyed > > tiger shrimp in their own 10 gallon with just 2 mystery snails and some > > MTS and ramshorn's for company. I'm trying to make sure they have a > > chance to breed a good bit before I even consider adding any fish to > > their 10 gallon (if I did they'd be very small fish). > > > > Amber > > > > On 4/21/2011 3:39 PM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > I want to try breeding my ancistrus again. I think they will breed > for > > > me but so far there are cories and angelfish that I think are eating > > > the eggs/fry. > > > > > > Questions: > > > > > > Cory catfish eat their own eggs, will they also eat the eggs of other > > > fish? I've seen the bristlenose fish go in their cave where they've > > > spawned before, then later the corys disappear and I find them in the > > > cave. Could they chase the ancistrus away from guarding his nest? > > > > > > I'd like to have a heavily planted tank of zebra danios, ancistrus, > > > and kuhli loaches. Would any of them bother each other's eggs/fry? > The > > > baby ancistrus I found were fairly big, about a cm, so I hope they'd > > > be too big for danios to eat, tho they are pigs when it comes to food! > > > > > > (I'll remove the danios to breed and raise their fry separately, so > > > I'm not worried about them eating their own eggs or other fish eating > > > their tiny eggs.) > > > > > > Do Kuhli loaches eat eggs or fry? I have the orange/black kind. > > > > > > Would any of these eat baby red cherry shrimp or bother the adults? > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51142	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

WilliamM, Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of anybody in Texas. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51143	From: Bill	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for pointing that out. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? WilliamM, Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of anybody in Texas. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51144	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: Update: hydra in the fry tank

You found the secret for gouramis to eat hydra, they need to be hungry. If you constantly feed them, they let the hydra grow right out of the tank. Yeah, sure, by that time they may eat one or two of them, but not enough to really count. The same goes for any fish that is normally used to eat what we consider to be undesirable tenants in our tanks. There are a number of good snail eaters, and some may even eat snails as a supplement to their diet, but many more need to have an edge to their hunger before they start doing what we consider to be their duty. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 11:34 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Update: hydra in the fry tank I had a pearl gourami fry tank that I discovered had hydra in it. I think they came from some green water I got from outside. The tank had 2 ages of fry, about 10 days apart in age - 26 older ones and around 100 of the younger ones. I also added one zebra danio fry (same age as the older gourami) and one baby guppy - same size as the older fry. When I discovered the hydra, I put in some crayfish (2 babies, around .5"), 3 red cherry shrimps, and a couple kinds of snails - mostly ramshorns. The hydra seemed to like the snails - I then saw hydra riding on the snail shells, some of the larger snails had 3-4 hydra on them. The crayfish died (stung?) but the shrimp are doing ok, tho I don't think they eat hydra. The older gourami fry avoided the hydra, but I think the hydra ate a fair number of the younger ones - every day there were fewer of the newly hatched fry and more hydra. Finally the fry were too big to be eaten, but I was down to only 2 of the smaller ones. The danio may have been eating the smaller fry too, I saw some suspicious behavior. Last week I got low on microworms (didn't start a new culture in time!) so I was feeding them Golden Pearls to make up the difference (which the gourami don't like). In about 3 days they ate all the hydra. Now I can't find a single one, and there were at least 50 in there before. I think the gourami are the ones that ate them. I only lost 1 of the larger gourami - I found it dead on the bottom in the morning. I don't know if it got stung by a hydra or if it died for some other reason. I still have 25 of the larger gourami fry and the 2 small ones, plus the shrimp, danio, and guppy. I haven't found hydra in any of the other tanks (thankfully!). BTW, the shrimp and ramshorns are keeping the fry tank spotless!!! No algae, mulm, or even visible poos. I'll use them in all of my fry tanks in the future!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51145	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/23/2011
Subject: Re: mystery sponge

thanks dawn....the wisdom of the group pays off..... and you wern't mean at all....lol.... :- )>>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > No, not safe for a freshwater aquarium. That appears to be a dead orange branch sponge and it will disintegrate if kept in a fresh water tank, meaning it would disappear and leave you with a nasty organic mess in your tank which could cause a whole list of issues. > > The best thing to do with it (so as not to waste the money spent on it) would be to dry it out and display it as a knick knack. That is about all its good for. In marine tanks that is one of the more difficult species to keep alive. > > BTW, nice looking piece, too bad its dead. I love those kinds of challenges in my tanks... have a few different species of sponge growing in my reef now. > > Hope this has helped. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@> wrote: > > > > thanks john. > > sorry i forgot to say its from the gulf of mexico...if that makes a difference. > > thats not a hole. its two branches that that could be bent out when it softened up. > > i just thought also ... it may have a bit of gulf oil or dispersant in it. > > hmmm... dont wanna use it unless you folks figured it was safe.... > > hopefully the in-laws dont ask about it next time there over..... > > :- )>>> > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Al, > > > > > > Personally I wouldn't for 2 reasons-firstly it's been in an unknown > > > aquatic environment & could possibly harbour & transfer something nasty to > > > your tank-even if it has dried out & secondly it looks like it could do some > > > damage to delicate passing fins & that hole is a potential trap. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > *On 22 April 2011 09:48, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi all. > > > > my in-laws came back from wintering in florida and brought me back a > > > > sponge they got at a pet store that is supposed to be for fish tanks; > > > > but being my carefull self i thought i would ask if anyone knew if it is > > > > safe for a freshwater tank?...not safe?...safe but not worth the trouble > > > > keeping it clean?....you get the picture... > > > > i put a pic of it in the photos section under al_keep_fish. > > > > thanks all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51146	From: kuradi8	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

My favorite Yellow Siams are on sale for $30 if you want to risk shipment. I can't vouch for these guys personally but I drool at their site regularly. http://www.somethingsphishy.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=e33e1a5132f4ee111e1f860037f05560 ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours > north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for > pointing that out. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > WilliamM, > > Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) > would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, > I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in > the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of > anybody in Texas. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jessica > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that > could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. > Good luck! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone > rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51147	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

Then, It probably would be a bit too far to go to the Baltimore area where both Peter Thode and Discus Hans are located. I'm not sure how active Peter is any longer, but Discus Hans gets around quite a bit, and is very active. He specializes in the Stakker (sp?) discus. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 4:10 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for pointing that out. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? WilliamM, Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of anybody in Texas. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51148	From: Ray	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

Kai, Interesting site! Where are they located? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > My favorite Yellow Siams are on sale for $30 if you want to risk shipment. I can't vouch for these guys personally but I drool at their site regularly. > http://www.somethingsphishy.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=e33e1a5132f4ee111e1f860037f05560 > ~Kai > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours > > north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for > > pointing that out. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > > > WilliamM, > > > > Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) > > would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, > > I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in > > the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of > > anybody in Texas. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jessica > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that > > could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. > > Good luck! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone > > rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51149	From: kuradi8	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

AH-HA! Found it on their SHIPPING page: Location: We are located in Tampa Florida, USA. We are not a retail store and only sell via the internet. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > Interesting site! Where are they located? > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > My favorite Yellow Siams are on sale for $30 if you want to risk shipment. I can't vouch for these guys personally but I drool at their site regularly. > > http://www.somethingsphishy.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=e33e1a5132f4ee111e1f860037f05560 > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours > > > north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for > > > pointing that out. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > > > > > > WilliamM, > > > > > > Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) > > > would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, > > > I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in > > > the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of > > > anybody in Texas. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Jessica > > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > > > Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that > > > could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. > > > Good luck! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone > > > rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51150	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Virginia Area?

Ray, Just an e-mail form under Contact Us. No About Us page. Looking under Shipping, a location of Tampa is found. To find out anymore, one would need to go off site, and use other methods to come up with an address. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 10:26 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? Kai, Interesting site! Where are they located? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > My favorite Yellow Siams are on sale for $30 if you want to risk shipment. I can't vouch for these guys personally but I drool at their site regularly. > http://www.somethingsphishy.com/index.php?cPath=21&osCsid=e33e1a5132f4ee111e1f860037f05560 > ~Kai > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Steve, point well taken.. I'm in the Richmond area but have driven two hours > > north to pick up some Discus.. so.. product/distance is a factor ... thanks for > > pointing that out. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, April 23, 2011 2:47:39 PM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > > > WilliamM, > > > > Where in VA? Even just by region (NoVA), county (Henrico), or city (Roanoke) > > would be more than sufficient for someone to truly help you. For instance, > > I'd probably not tell you of a couple of guys in MD, if you are way down in > > the southeastern part of the state, but would then tell you if I knew of > > anybody in Texas. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Jessica > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:49 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Virginia Area? > > > > Haha. :( Sorry, no. Although we do have a 12 inch pleco in Georgia that > > could take a new home. I guess we'll have to end up keeping him. > > Good luck! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm looking to pick up some cory's, plecos and heaven forbid someone > > rearing Discus. Anyone close by? Bill in Va. > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51151	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

yes ,you are right I sucked BIG TIME here, and killed some really cool fish,It was not my plan to harm my fish,it was a hard lesson to watch them go that way, any ways,thats why I am here looking for better help, that's what I was told- I had to do to get the tank set up, as for the rocks, petrified rocks, I think they were pine trees a long time-ago, it was the kitchen & bathroom silicone,that was my killer, took it all out, new water, now it all looks grate in the tanks, they even acting better, and clear, its nice to see the fish playing in the return water lots of pressure.Trying to do better, Thanks, Happy- Easter to you all, --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > You really need to read up on fishless cycling, using live fish is > cruel-even if they do not die in the process you end up with a number of > unwanted & potentially damaged fish. I'm a little concerned too about the > desert rock that could be messing up your water chemistry-do you know what > type of rocks they are? Regular kitchen & bathroom silicone could possibly > contain harmful toxins-even when dry, I wouldn't take that chance. You can > get tank safe silicone from your LFS. > > You also say that you may have rushed things-in my limited experience with > fish keeping I have found that things only work out well when you take time > & go 'round the houses' rather than short cuts-just my thoughts. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 21 April 2011 11:01, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water chemistry!.. > > > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment but > > API > > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X > > 2'T , > > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to > > freshwater > > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the > > tank we have two big tanks > > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath > > with > > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still > > killing > > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. > > #1- > > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash > > them off > > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of > > the > > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our > > 135gal > > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the > > bacteria, also used > > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this > > tank was > > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all > > large > > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a > > > > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank > > , a > > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, > > can > > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in > > start-up > > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51152	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

thanks, very nice --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > You can get a master test kit from walmart.com and order it "ship to > store" for pickup locally. THen you don't have to pay any shipping for > the item, it tends to be the cheapest way for a test kit that I've seen > around. > > Amber > > On 4/21/2011 1:23 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > > > Right now Foster & Smith has it for $16.79. I just got mine. > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com > > > > Gail > > > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > > > chemistry!.. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a > > > $25.00 investment but API does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51153	From: coloradoyouthclub	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

my bad- that was my trouble, Ammonia was 5.0,- PH 6.0,- Nitrate 5.0,- and Nitrite 0,- and we had 20 gold fish at the time sorry --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water chemistry!.. > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment but API > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D X 2'T , > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to freshwater > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up the > tank we have two big tanks > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks underneath with > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still killing > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this tank. #1- > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash them off > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some of the > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from our 135gal > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for the > bacteria, also used > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this tank was > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all large > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it was a > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole tank , a > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at all, can > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in start-up > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51154	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

Hi, Glad to hear everything worked out ok-it's great to see them playing in the outfall. I have 2 large nozzles firing across the surface & they dance around in that all the time. I also have a small sub-system running a UV sterilizer & that fires across the bottom-sometimes my fish will queue up to wiggle in this & they try in vain to swim up the tube! Have a great Easter. John*<o)))<* On 24 April 2011 08:27, coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...>wrote: > > > yes ,you are right I sucked BIG TIME here, and killed some really cool > fish,It was not my plan to harm my fish,it was a hard lesson to watch them > go that way, any ways,thats why I am here looking for better help, that's > what I was told- I had to do to get the tank set up, as for the rocks, > petrified rocks, I think they were pine trees a long time-ago, it was the > kitchen & bathroom silicone,that was my killer, took it all out, new water, > now it all looks grate in the tanks, they even acting better, and clear, its > nice to see the fish playing in the return water lots of pressure.Trying to > do better, Thanks, Happy- Easter to you all, > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > You really need to read up on fishless cycling, using live fish is > > cruel-even if they do not die in the process you end up with a number of > > unwanted & potentially damaged fish. I'm a little concerned too about the > > desert rock that could be messing up your water chemistry-do you know > what > > type of rocks they are? Regular kitchen & bathroom silicone could > possibly > > contain harmful toxins-even when dry, I wouldn't take that chance. You > can > > get tank safe silicone from your LFS. > > > > You also say that you may have rushed things-in my limited experience > with > > fish keeping I have found that things only work out well when you take > time > > & go 'round the houses' rather than short cuts-just my thoughts. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 21 April 2011 11:01, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > chemistry!.. > > > > > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 investment > but > > > API > > > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > > > > > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X 2'D > X > > > 2'T , > > > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to > > > freshwater > > > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting up > the > > > tank we have two big tanks > > > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks > underneath > > > with > > > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still > > > killing > > > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in this > tank. > > > #1- > > > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did wash > > > them off > > > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > > > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to some > of > > > the > > > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from > our > > > 135gal > > > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- for > the > > > bacteria, also used > > > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > > > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > > > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > > > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > > > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but this > > > tank was > > > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it all > > > large > > > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, it > was a > > > > > > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the hole > tank > > > , a > > > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good at > all, > > > can > > > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish in > > > start-up > > > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51155	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

When you set up a new tank and you want to get the cycle started without fish, and you have a previously cycled and running freshwater tank; You can take some of the filter media (like the little bio-balls, or ceramic balls), or if you don't have anything that can be removed you can rub the sponge/filter media against the new filter media in your new filter. This will transfer some of the beneficial bacteria to your new filter and help start your cycle a bit faster. You will still have to watch your tank parameters and do water changes if you see any Ammonia or Nitrites, but the cycle should finish a lot faster than starting up a brand new tank and using "feeder fish". Just adding water from the established tank to the new one won't transfer very many (if any at all) beneficial bacteria, as they prefer to live attached to things (such as gravel, or your filter media). You can often go to your local fish store and ask for some of their filter media for a small fee, so that you can start your cycle safely too. Just make sure not to go to a big box store that uses 1 filtration system for all the tanks, as you could get illnesses/diseases with that filter media very easily. The preferred (and least harmful to any fish) way to cycle a tank is buy some plain ammonia from the hardware store and use that instead of fish to get the cycle going, it'll still take the same amount of time regardless (at least 4 weeks or more for most tanks). Also most stuff that is sold at pet stores for fish tanks (as far as additives go) are not needed and sometimes can even harm your fish. Stay away from anything that promises to clear up your water of any cloudiness/algae/etc, they often can kill your fish. If you want a good product that will add all the beneficial bacteria to your tank so that your cycle will finish right away you can buy "Dr. Tim's One and Only", it comes with enough beneficial bacteria to fully cycle a brand new tank (depending on the size of your tank of course), you might need more than a couple bottles for such a large tank, but it will instantly cycle your tank so it's safe for fish. Stress zyme doesn't actually have the proper bacteria in it, and won't correctly cycle your tank. but it won't harm your fish either. Amber On 4/24/2011 6:48 AM, coloradoyouthclub wrote: > > my bad- that was my trouble, Ammonia was 5.0,- PH 6.0,- > Nitrate 5.0,- and Nitrite 0,- and we had 20 gold fish at the time sorry > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > chemistry!.. > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 > investment but API > > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: coloradoyouthclub <coloradoyouthclub@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thu, April 21, 2011 1:31:27 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > > > > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish tank, 7'L X > 2'D X 2'T , > > ( will post pics later ) , It used to be a salt but had to switch to > freshwater > > ( bad location for salt fish tank ) we need lots of help RE-setting > up the > > tank we have two big tanks > > the big one is kicking my a_ _!, 250gal plus two 35 gal tanks > underneath with > > bio ball's about 300 gal,of water, its bin over a week and its still > killing > > the starter gold fish,and its still cloudy. things we changed in > this tank. #1- > > I did add some petrified rocks we found in the desert in AZ,we did > wash them off > > first with a plain water , #2- some fake plants, we used Kitchen & Bath > > silicone let it dry 4- 24 hrs to hold the plants to the rocks- to > some of the > > old rocks we had in the tank be for, #3- took some of the water from > our 135gal > > smaller tank out side - about ( 75 gallons ) to help with set up- > for the > > bacteria, also used > > 1- 4 oz of ( STRES ZYME ) a dual action bacteria > > 2- small amount of ( AmQuel+plus ) > > 3- also used some ( Jungle -- START RIGHT ) > > 4- and have used ( Aqua Safe ) > > after !/3 water change, OK, I may be rushing thing on set up , but > this tank was > > all-ways trouble free,it was an aw-sum set-up, it had 79 fish in it > all large > > 1- 24" Parana the biggest I could hold, I would pet most the fish, > it was a > > cool tank, , the rest, all sizes , from 18" down to 6" . lost the > hole tank , a > > real bad storm power loss, so starting all over and not doing good > at all, can > > any-one help sort this mess out and save me from killing more fish > in start-up > > THANKS ,hope you can reed this all and make heads or tales of it > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51156	From: Lloyd	Date: 4/24/2011
Subject: Re: Hi were new,what a mess we have.

HI , Thanks for your help, with the size of the two tanks, and when we got them, they were up and running, and we kept all the stuff in the tanks, and even got to use some of the rocks an gravel, pumps,exc, well you see we never had any trouble,at all, it was perfect set-up, we were very lucky for years, no hard lessons,till now, and it sucked big time here,1 $2.99 tube of Kitchen & Bath silicone could go so bad. going to make a list, of do's an dont's so on,some good help in here. a lot of this stuff we were getting wrong, like saving the water,lol, thats funny now, looking back, all of them five gallon buckets, well we kept it all wet, was the one thing we did right,but the rest is all looking grate, this is a lot , thanks Amber.have a fantastic day Happy Easter. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > When you set up a new tank and you want to get the cycle started without > fish, and you have a previously cycled and running freshwater tank; You > can take some of the filter media (like the little bio-balls, or ceramic > balls), or if you don't have anything that can be removed you can rub > the sponge/filter media against the new filter media in your new filter. > This will transfer some of the beneficial bacteria to your new filter > and help start your cycle a bit faster. You will still have to watch > your tank parameters and do water changes if you see any Ammonia or > Nitrites, but the cycle should finish a lot faster than starting up a > brand new tank and using "feeder fish". Just adding water from the > established tank to the new one won't transfer very many (if any at all) > beneficial bacteria, as they prefer to live attached to things (such as > gravel, or your filter media). You can often go to your local fish store > and ask for some of their filter media for a small fee, so that you can > start your cycle safely too. Just make sure not to go to a big box store > that uses 1 filtration system for all the tanks, as you could get > illnesses/diseases with that filter media very easily. > The preferred (and least harmful to any fish) way to cycle a tank is buy > some plain ammonia from the hardware store and use that instead of fish > to get the cycle going, it'll still take the same amount of time > regardless (at least 4 weeks or more for most tanks). > Also most stuff that is sold at pet stores for fish tanks (as far as > additives go) are not needed and sometimes can even harm your fish. Stay > away from anything that promises to clear up your water of any > cloudiness/algae/etc, they often can kill your fish. If you want a good > product that will add all the beneficial bacteria to your tank so that > your cycle will finish right away you can buy "Dr. Tim's One and Only", > it comes with enough beneficial bacteria to fully cycle a brand new tank > (depending on the size of your tank of course), you might need more than > a couple bottles for such a large tank, but it will instantly cycle your > tank so it's safe for fish. Stress zyme doesn't actually have the proper > bacteria in it, and won't correctly cycle your tank. but it won't harm > your fish either. > > > Amber > > On 4/24/2011 6:48 AM, coloradoyouthclub wrote: > > > > my bad- that was my trouble, Ammonia was 5.0,- PH 6.0,- > > Nitrate 5.0,- and Nitrite 0,- and we had 20 gold fish at the time sorry > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Lengthy posts but no where did I see any mention of your water > > chemistry!.. > > > Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph and hardness. It's a $25.00 > > investment but API > > > does a pretty good job!.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hi were new,what a mess we have. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi from Arkansas, we have a 300 gallon fresh water fish > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51157	From: Lloyd	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: new here my tank is doing fantastic now

I want to thank you all for your help, after we got rid of the Kitchen & Bath silicone, It all went right back like it should be, will post some more pic of the tanks and fish after the plants and Rocks are back in there tanks. going over all of the help-full tips,there is a lot to go over from you all,but My Fish and I THANK-you-all, as to where to start looking. and will post some of my pics from our pond,my cat fish eat from my hand, there cool too in my book, just a bigger tank. you all have a grate day

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51158	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Hi Dawn, Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 days treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail & fins are still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down to genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my friend's pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around 25 NO3 just prior to a water change. As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot long ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration further by using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a heatwave here just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? John*<o)))< * On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > wrote: > >> >> >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start >> the meds anytime. >> >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. >> >> Best of luck to you and your fish! >> >> >> Dawn >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> >> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Dawn, >> > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder >> is >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local >> store >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, >> if >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. >> > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get >> the >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will >> let >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of >> my >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. >> > >> > John*<o)))<* >> > >> > >> > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a >> link >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship >> international. >> > > >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 >> > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent >> Marine >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through >> their >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. >> I know >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. >> > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip >> lock >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder >> is on >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is >> still >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is >> on the >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into >> the >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being >> washed >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and >> letting it >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. >> > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in >> the >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that >> can be a >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities >> at a >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long >> way. Once >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, >> then >> > > scoop it back into the container.) >> > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. >> > > >> > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> >> > > wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about >> & >> > > act >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. >> > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches >> including >> > > tail: >> > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets >> > > > 1 x Sarassa >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp >> > > > 2 x Commons >> > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose >> approx >> > > 3 >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae >> wafers & >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 >> > > indicates >> > > > everything is fine with my water. >> > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in >> question >> > > was >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his >> life in >> > > an >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the >> stunting >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of >> > > years >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen >> > > badly >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted >> bodies >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the >> time. >> > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything >> > > useful >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can >> buy >> > > many >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my >> hand so >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. >> How >> > > long >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY >> meal >> > > for >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any >> specific >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I >> just >> > > coat >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon >> as >> > > > possible. >> > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the >> last 6 >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the >> salt >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank >> just >> > > > now will be barely background levels. >> > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is >> that >> > > one >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it >> will be >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest >> anything >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder >> that >> > > I >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. >> > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. >> One >> > > of >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot >> ribbon >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but >> there >> > > is >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig >> out >> > > of >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not >> that >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth >> acrylic >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. >> > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the >> bio >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" >> cubic >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam >> for >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. >> > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters >> told me >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & >> they >> > > have >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I >> really >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because >> I >> > > liked >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do >> all I >> > > can >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with >> > > excellent >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements >> to >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for >> starters. >> > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c >> > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both >> comets >> > > and >> > > > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is >> > > causing >> > > > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the >> environment >> > > or >> > > > > water quality, or a combination of things. >> > > > > >> > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like >> there >> > > is an >> > > > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the >> age >> > > of >> > > > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely >> internal >> > > damage >> > > > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, >> and >> > > can >> > > > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, >> in >> > > spite >> > > > > of even perfect care. >> > > > > >> > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, >> which >> > > if >> > > > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There >> is >> > > no >> > > > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with >> it >> > > and be >> > > > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no >> > > > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as >> a >> > > > > preventive. >> > > > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with >> normal >> > > > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if >> there >> > > is >> > > > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, >> which >> > > will >> > > > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have >> seen >> > > > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or >> kidneys >> > > are >> > > > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing >> certain >> > > > > vitamins and minerals. >> > > > > >> > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin >> > > > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link >> to it >> > > let >> > > > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the >> food >> > > stand to >> > > > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the >> > > kanamycin, >> > > > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. >> The >> > > Zoe is >> > > > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more >> > > specific >> > > > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I >> will >> > > walk >> > > > > you through it. >> > > > > >> > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank >> overstocked? >> > > It >> > > > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality >> > > looks to >> > > > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, >> that is >> > > only >> > > > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, >> plenty >> > > of >> > > > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away >> from >> > > each >> > > > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great >> deal >> > > of >> > > > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. >> > > > > >> > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and >> > > there is >> > > > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of >> > > medication >> > > > > treatment.) >> > > > > >> > > > > Dawn >> > > > > >> > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@ >> > >> > > > > wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Everyone, >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on >> an >> > > > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" >> long >> > > > > overall >> > > > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively >> worse >> > > ragged >> > > > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his >> fin >> > > rays >> > > > > & >> > > > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to >> time but >> > > > > they >> > > > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad >> split >> > > after a >> > > > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole >> that has >> > > a >> > > > > red >> > > > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause >> the >> > > tail >> > > > > to >> > > > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been >> > > pinkish >> > > > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically >> > > treating >> > > > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP >> swabs. I >> > > > > tried >> > > > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum >> > > injections >> > > > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has >> also >> > > > > taken a >> > > > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the >> results >> > > > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic >> > > > > evidence. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 >> > > Gallon >> > > > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning >> the >> > > tank >> > > > > over >> > > > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on >> a >> > > sub >> > > > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot >> there >> > > are 9 >> > > > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change >> every 3-4 >> > > > > days >> > > > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section >> & 8 >> > > feet >> > > > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a >> mixture >> > > of >> > > > > 4mm >> > > > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, >> green >> > > > > veggies >> > > > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing >> or >> > > > > flicking >> > > > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around >> so I'm >> > > > > sure >> > > > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued >> fairground >> > > prize >> > > > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My >> thoughts >> > > are >> > > > > this >> > > > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that >> with >> > > all >> > > > > my 5 >> > > > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet >> the 4 >> > > > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] >> > > never >> > > > > get >> > > > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible >> > > solutions >> > > > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this >> annoying >> > > > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > John*<o)))< >> > > > > > >> > > > > > * >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51159	From: Deb	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Recall from Petsmart on Stealthheaters

April 22, 2011 Dear Valued PetSmart Pet Parent, United Pet Group is recalling Marineland Stealth 50 Watt Heaters based on information received from the manufacturer of this product and a U.S Consumer Product Safety Commission report released April 21, 2011. The product is being recalled due to a quality issue that may cause harm to the pet or Pet Parent. For more information, please see the report. This heater has been sold as a single item and also as part of the Top Fin 10 Gallon Starter Aquarium Kit. If you have purchased this kit, please check your tank to determine which heater came in your kit. If your heater is made of all black plastic like the heaters in the images below, it is a Marineland Stealth 50 Watt Heater and has been recalled. Please follow the below instructions. If your heater is made of glass like the heaters in the images below, it is not affected by the recall and does not need to be returned to the store. If you have this product, please stop using it immediately and take the following steps: Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity Let the heater cool for 15 minutes Remove the heater from the tank Please bring the product to your closest PetSmart for a full refund or exchange. Replace the product with a comparable heater as soon as possible to maintain the temperature of your aquarium. A PetSmart store associate can help you select the right heater for your aquatic environment. If you have questions about this recall, please call Marineland Customer Service at 1-800-338-4896. At PetSmart, we are concerned Pet Parents, too. We will continue to do everything we can to help you and your pet during this time. Sincerely, Debbie Gonzalez Vice President, Brand and Customer Marketing

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51160	From: Deb	Date: 4/25/2011
Subject: Heater recall

Dear DEBORAH, We're contacting you with important recall information regarding your Marineland Stealth Heater (25W, 50W, 75W, 100W, 150W, 200W, 250W) purchased between 2004 - 2009. United Pet Proup (UPG) has determined that a wiring problem can cause the aquarium heaters to overheat or break during normal use, resulting in property damage and posing hazards to consumers. As a valued customer, your safety and satisfaction is our priority. If you are still using one of the Marineland Stealth Heaters in question, please take the following steps: Unplug the heater from the wall to stop the flow of electricity Let the heater cool for 15 minutes Remove the heater from the tank UPG will arrange the return of the recalled model(s) in your possession in exchange for your choice of a free replacement heater (Visi-Therm Deluxe), or full refund. Please contact UPG at (800) 338-4896 between 7:30 am - 5:30 pm EST Monday through Friday to begin the process. If you'd prefer to arrange your return/refund through Foster & Smith Aquatics, or to discuss trying a Fluval M Submersible Heater as an alternate replacement instead, please contact Customer Service at 1-800-443-1160. Our friendly customer service representatives are always happy to help you, 7 am-10 pm, CST, 7 days a week. We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. Please let us help you continue to enjoy your favorite hobby for many years to come! Sincerely, Customer Care Team, Foster and Smith Aquatics 1-800-443-1160 CustomerService@...

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51161	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/26/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Hi John, so happy to hear things are getting better. In answer to your question about the pond pump... while more aeration will surely help with a temp that high, be careful not to overdo it. Too much circulation will cause stress, making them more susceptible to illness and other issues. Air stones and diffusers are your best bet at adding aeration to the tank because they channel smaller bubbles to the surface, where the gas exchange takes place as the bubbles pop. The smaller, slower moving bubbles will diffuse more O2 in the actual tank water than faster moving, larger bubbles. If cooling of temp is all you wish to achieve, try a small powerhead near the surface to create surface agitation. If set up to blow towards another side of the tank (on an angle) this would create the agitation you need in a small enough area so as not to overly stress the fish, just be sure the power head is pointing enough at the surface to aim the water flow at the glass right at the surface. You'll want it to be just barely breaking the surface of the water to avoid excessive splashing. The biggest harm in warm water and goldfish is O2 depletion. (warmer water contains less O2 and goldfish require more O2 than the average aquarium fish) Small water changes using water at room temp will also help to avoid any serious problems with the fish. Refreshing their environment with new water will increase their rate of O2 replacement, beyond that the warmer temp should not bother them. During the really warm times it also can help to slow down feedings, which will create less waste in the tank, keeping water quality in better condition and slowing down chemical changes that use O2 in their function. Adding live plants to the tank such as hornwort, which thrives at that temperature and produces O2, can also help. Hornwort won't be eaten the same way they will eat a plant like anacharis, making it more useful for this purpose. Be sure to clean out any dead plant matter regularly, also, as this will quickly pollute water as it breaks down naturally. Hornwort that is store bought is seldom in a healthy state, so it is known to drop its needles for a period of time before it adjusts to the new water chemistry and new growth begins to form. Healthy hornwort is bright green with pink tips and slightly pinkish stems. In early stages of growth, healthy hornwort is entirely bright green, including stems. I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 days > treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost > disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail & fins are > still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down to > genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my friend's > pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around 25 NO3 > just prior to a water change. > > As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot long > ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration further by > using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a heatwave here > just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & > > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The > >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When > >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason > >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it > >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start > >> the meds anytime. > >> > >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even > >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build > >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice > >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few > >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. > >> > >> Best of luck to you and your fish! > >> > >> > >> Dawn > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Dawn, > >> > > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder > >> is > >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local > >> store > >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, > >> if > >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. > >> > > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get > >> the > >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will > >> let > >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of > >> my > >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > >> > > >> > John*<o)))<* > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a > >> link > >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > >> international. > >> > > > >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > >> > > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent > >> Marine > >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through > >> their > >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. > >> I know > >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > >> > > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip > >> lock > >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder > >> is on > >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is > >> still > >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is > >> on the > >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into > >> the > >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being > >> washed > >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and > >> letting it > >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > >> > > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in > >> the > >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that > >> can be a > >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities > >> at a > >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long > >> way. Once > >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, > >> then > >> > > scoop it back into the container.) > >> > > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about > >> & > >> > > act > >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > >> > > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches > >> including > >> > > tail: > >> > > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets > >> > > > 1 x Sarassa > >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp > >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > >> > > > 2 x Commons > >> > > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose > >> approx > >> > > 3 > >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae > >> wafers & > >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > >> > > indicates > >> > > > everything is fine with my water. > >> > > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in > >> question > >> > > was > >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his > >> life in > >> > > an > >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the > >> stunting > >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > >> > > years > >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > >> > > badly > >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted > >> bodies > >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the > >> time. > >> > > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > >> > > useful > >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can > >> buy > >> > > many > >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my > >> hand so > >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. > >> How > >> > > long > >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY > >> meal > >> > > for > >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any > >> specific > >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I > >> just > >> > > coat > >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon > >> as > >> > > > possible. > >> > > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the > >> last 6 > >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the > >> salt > >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank > >> just > >> > > > now will be barely background levels. > >> > > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is > >> that > >> > > one > >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it > >> will be > >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest > >> anything > >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder > >> that > >> > > I > >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > >> > > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. > >> One > >> > > of > >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot > >> ribbon > >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but > >> there > >> > > is > >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig > >> out > >> > > of > >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not > >> that > >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth > >> acrylic > >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > >> > > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the > >> bio > >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" > >> cubic > >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam > >> for > >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > >> > > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters > >> told me > >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & > >> they > >> > > have > >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I > >> really > >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because > >> I > >> > > liked > >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do > >> all I > >> > > can > >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > >> > > excellent > >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements > >> to > >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for > >> starters. > >> > > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > On 12 April 2011 19:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > >> > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The red veining is a common symptom of stress in goldfish, both > >> comets > >> > > and > >> > > > > fancy. The hard part with the red veining is to determine what is > >> > > causing > >> > > > > the stress.... illness, other fish/animals in the tank, the > >> environment > >> > > or > >> > > > > water quality, or a combination of things. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > From your description of the problem, it does indeed sound like > >> there > >> > > is an > >> > > > > infection going on somewhere, quite possibly internal. Knowing the > >> age > >> > > of > >> > > > > the fish and its current size tells me that there is likely > >> internal > >> > > damage > >> > > > > due to stunting. Once internal damage is done it is seldom undone, > >> and > >> > > can > >> > > > > lead to a multitude of health problems throughout the fish's life, > >> in > >> > > spite > >> > > > > of even perfect care. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > At this point I would suggest a treatment of kanamycin sulfate, > >> which > >> > > if > >> > > > > you can't get online, your vet should be able to assist you. There > >> is > >> > > no > >> > > > > need to treat the entire tank if you can coat the pellet food with > >> it > >> > > and be > >> > > > > sure the affected fish is getting his/her fill. And if there is no > >> > > > > infection, the kanamycin won't hurt the fish, would work simply as > >> a > >> > > > > preventive. > >> > > > > I would also suggest going easy on the salt. For a goldfish with > >> normal > >> > > > > organ function salt can be a wonderful healing agent, however, if > >> there > >> > > is > >> > > > > an internal issue with organ function, salt can cause new issues, > >> which > >> > > will > >> > > > > cause stress and suffering. Quite often in stunted goldfish I have > >> seen > >> > > > > liver and kidney damage among other things. When liver and/or > >> kidneys > >> > > are > >> > > > > not functioning normally the fish have a hard time processing > >> certain > >> > > > > vitamins and minerals. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > That leads to my next suggestion, get the fish on a good vitamin > >> > > > > supplement, such as Zoe (made by Kent Marine). If you need a link > >> to it > >> > > let > >> > > > > me know. You can soak the pellet food in the vitamins, let the > >> food > >> > > stand to > >> > > > > dry, and then feed it regularly. During the treatment with the > >> > > kanamycin, > >> > > > > soak in the vitamins first, let dry, then coat in the kanamycin. > >> The > >> > > Zoe is > >> > > > > liquid, the kanamycin is a powdered medication. If you need more > >> > > specific > >> > > > > instructions on how to coat the food please just let me know and I > >> will > >> > > walk > >> > > > > you through it. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Take a good look at your created environment. Is the tank > >> overstocked? > >> > > It > >> > > > > sounded as if that is possibly the case. Even though water quality > >> > > looks to > >> > > > > be in good condition according to the test results you posted, > >> that is > >> > > only > >> > > > > 1/2 the battle of overstocking. These fish need plenty of space, > >> plenty > >> > > of > >> > > > > oxygen, and plenty of decoration in case they need to get away > >> from > >> > > each > >> > > > > other. A depletion of anything, especially O2, will cause a great > >> deal > >> > > of > >> > > > > stress, enough to cause the red veining you see in the fins. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I hope this helps. If you need more info/help, please ask.... (and > >> > > there is > >> > > > > no need to remove any carbon from filters during this type of > >> > > medication > >> > > > > treatment.) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Dawn > >> > > > > > >> > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@ > >> > > >> > > > > wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Hi Everyone, > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Hoping the collective wisdom of the forum can shed some light on > >> an > >> > > > > > ongoing problem of mine. I have an 8 year old Comet approx 8" > >> long > >> > > > > overall > >> > > > > > length who, for the past 3-4 years has gotten progressively > >> worse > >> > > ragged > >> > > > > > fins & tail. He has always had a very thin membrane between his > >> fin > >> > > rays > >> > > > > & > >> > > > > > has lost sometimes sizable portions of his tail from time to > >> time but > >> > > > > they > >> > > > > > always grow back eventually. It often starts out with a bad > >> split > >> > > after a > >> > > > > > frenzied chasing session or else it will start out as a hole > >> that has > >> > > a > >> > > > > red > >> > > > > > inside edge that will 'eat' it's way to the edge & thereby cause > >> the > >> > > tail > >> > > > > to > >> > > > > > fracture & break. Over the last year or so there has also been > >> > > pinkish > >> > > > > > streaks-again particularly noticeable after a chasing session. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I have tried several things-salting the tank to 0.9%, topically > >> > > treating > >> > > > > > with very strong solutions of salt together with iodine & PP > >> swabs. I > >> > > > > tried > >> > > > > > using Baytril pellets, Medi Gold as well as a series of Fortum > >> > > injections > >> > > > > > from a local fish friendly vet but all to no avail. The vet has > >> also > >> > > > > taken a > >> > > > > > small biopsy from his tail & sent it off for analysis & the > >> results > >> > > > > > although not 100% conclusive showed up no bacterial or parasitic > >> > > > > evidence. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > My tank is 109 UK gallons with corner weirs gravity feeding a 16 > >> > > Gallon > >> > > > > > wet/dry filter. This has 2 x Eheim Compact 5000 pumps turning > >> the > >> > > tank > >> > > > > over > >> > > > > > approximately 10 times per hour. I also have a small canister on > >> a > >> > > sub > >> > > > > > system which runs a powerful UV sterilizer. Including Apricot > >> there > >> > > are 9 > >> > > > > > streamlined Carps of similar size & I do a 50% water change > >> every 3-4 > >> > > > > days > >> > > > > > with a little Stress-Coat added. The tank is 20" square section > >> & 8 > >> > > feet > >> > > > > > long. Parameters are Ammo=0, NO2=0, pH=7.8, NO3=25. Diet is a > >> mixture > >> > > of > >> > > > > 4mm > >> > > > > > floating Koi Pellets, pond sticks, dried prawns, citrus fruit, > >> green > >> > > > > veggies > >> > > > > > & frozen blister packs-bloodworms, krill etc. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > None of the other fish have anything wrong-there is no flashing > >> or > >> > > > > flicking > >> > > > > > & all my fish including this one are constantly playing around > >> so I'm > >> > > > > sure > >> > > > > > he is not bothered by this in the least. He was a resued > >> fairground > >> > > prize > >> > > > > > fish so obviously his ancestry is highly questionable! My > >> thoughts > >> > > are > >> > > > > this > >> > > > > > is either fin congestion or genetics or both. I would add that > >> with > >> > > all > >> > > > > my 5 > >> > > > > > Comets repeatedly get tail damage from their chasing antics yet > >> the 4 > >> > > > > > Commons [who always seem much more sensible & calm fish anyway!] > >> > > never > >> > > > > get > >> > > > > > smashed up due to their smaller finnage. Any ideas & possible > >> > > solutions > >> > > > > > please? I would love to eradicate or at least undertand this > >> annoying > >> > > > > > problem just for my own peace of mind. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > John*<o)))< > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > * > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51162	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

The actual gaseous exchange happens in the water column when the bubble is on its way up. To be truthful. It is not much, but any little bit helps. The actual breakage of the bubble at the surface just releases what was in the bubble to the atmosphere, and is not actually changing what is in the water. Technically, I suppose one could say it was a part of the process, ad gas is being exchanged. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:04 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Comet Finnage Problem Hi John, so happy to hear things are getting better. In answer to your question about the pond pump... while more aeration will surely help with a temp that high, be careful not to overdo it. Too much circulation will cause stress, making them more susceptible to illness and other issues. Air stones and diffusers are your best bet at adding aeration to the tank because they channel smaller bubbles to the surface, where the gas exchange takes place as the bubbles pop. The smaller, slower moving bubbles will diffuse more O2 in the actual tank water than faster moving, larger bubbles. If cooling of temp is all you wish to achieve, try a small powerhead near the surface to create surface agitation. If set up to blow towards another side of the tank (on an angle) this would create the agitation you need in a small enough area so as not to overly stress the fish, just be sure the power head is pointing enough at the surface to aim the water flow at the glass right at the surface. You'll want it to be just barely breaking the surface of the water to avoid excessive splashing. The biggest harm in warm water and goldfish is O2 depletion. (warmer water contains less O2 and goldfish require more O2 than the average aquarium fish) Small water changes using water at room temp will also help to avoid any serious problems with the fish. Refreshing their environment with new water will increase their rate of O2 replacement, beyond that the warmer temp should not bother them. During the really warm times it also can help to slow down feedings, which will create less waste in the tank, keeping water quality in better condition and slowing down chemical changes that use O2 in their function. Adding live plants to the tank such as hornwort, which thrives at that temperature and produces O2, can also help. Hornwort won't be eaten the same way they will eat a plant like anacharis, making it more useful for this purpose. Be sure to clean out any dead plant matter regularly, also, as this will quickly pollute water as it breaks down naturally. Hornwort that is store bought is seldom in a healthy state, so it is known to drop its needles for a period of time before it adjusts to the new water chemistry and new growth begins to form. Healthy hornwort is bright green with pink tips and slightly pinkish stems. In early stages of growth, healthy hornwort is entirely bright green, including stems. I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 days > treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost > disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail & fins are > still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down to > genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my friend's > pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around 25 NO3 > just prior to a water change. > > As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot long > ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration further by > using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a heatwave here > just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & > > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The > >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When > >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason > >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it > >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start > >> the meds anytime. > >> > >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even > >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build > >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice > >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few > >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. > >> > >> Best of luck to you and your fish! > >> > >> > >> Dawn > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi Dawn, > >> > > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder > >> is > >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local > >> store > >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, > >> if > >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. > >> > > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get > >> the > >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will > >> let > >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of > >> my > >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > >> > > >> > John*<o)))<* > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a > >> link > >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > >> international. > >> > > > >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > >> > > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent > >> Marine > >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through > >> their > >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. > >> I know > >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > >> > > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip > >> lock > >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder > >> is on > >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is > >> still > >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is > >> on the > >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into > >> the > >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being > >> washed > >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and > >> letting it > >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > >> > > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in > >> the > >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that > >> can be a > >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities > >> at a > >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long > >> way. Once > >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, > >> then > >> > > scoop it back into the container.) > >> > > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > >> > > wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about > >> & > >> > > act > >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > >> > > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches > >> including > >> > > tail: > >> > > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets > >> > > > 1 x Sarassa > >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp > >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > >> > > > 2 x Commons > >> > > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose > >> approx > >> > > 3 > >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae > >> wafers & > >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > >> > > indicates > >> > > > everything is fine with my water. > >> > > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in > >> question > >> > > was > >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his > >> life in > >> > > an > >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the > >> stunting > >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > >> > > years > >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > >> > > badly > >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted > >> bodies > >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the > >> time. > >> > > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > >> > > useful > >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can > >> buy > >> > > many > >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my > >> hand so > >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. > >> How > >> > > long > >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY > >> meal > >> > > for > >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any > >> specific > >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I > >> just > >> > > coat > >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon > >> as > >> > > > possible. > >> > > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the > >> last 6 > >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the > >> salt > >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank > >> just > >> > > > now will be barely background levels. > >> > > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is > >> that > >> > > one > >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it > >> will be > >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest > >> anything > >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder > >> that > >> > > I > >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > >> > > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. > >> One > >> > > of > >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot > >> ribbon > >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but > >> there > >> > > is > >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig > >> out > >> > > of > >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not > >> that > >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth > >> acrylic > >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > >> > > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the > >> bio > >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" > >> cubic > >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam > >> for > >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > >> > > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters > >> told me > >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & > >> they > >> > > have > >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I > >> really > >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because > >> I > >> > > liked > >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do > >> all I > >> > > can > >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > >> > > excellent > >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements > >> to > >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for > >> starters. > >> > > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* > >> > > > ---------------<snip>---------------

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51163	From: Ray	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: Comet Finnage Problem

Actually, while there will always be an exchange of gases wherever a gaseous form of them meets a form of them as dissolved in water (and as long as there is an imbalance of the gases being encountered), this exchange is extremely minute -- whether it be in the form of small bubbles in the water column or at the surface as they break, albeit, smaller bubbles rise much slower than large bubbles allowing more time for such an exchange. The majority of the gas exchange is at the surface (where the normal exchange of gas has always taken place). Aeration only serves to turn the water surface over at a much faster rate, subjecting "new" water (water that has not yet been in contact with the atmosphere) from a deeper part of the water column, enabling it to then exchange gases. This "new" water from the depths has been depleted of oxygen by the fish and loaded with excess CO2 by their respiration -- it is "hungry" for the much higher oxygen content of the atmosphere and is "relieved" to readily give up its higher than normal CO2 rate. While the surface of the water is where gas exchanges take place, even in unaerated aquariums with still water, this exchange is slow when compared to moving (as being aerated) water constantly exposing water from the water-column depth to the surface/atmosphere where this water's imbalance of gases are eager to be re-balance by the influences of the atmosphere -- as is always being done -- but now at a faster rate to be of more immediate use, even to a higher bioload if it should become necessary (although increasing the bioload is never recommended, when failure of the aeration is an ever existing possibility in times of power failure). It is a fallacy that the main purpose of aeration is to give the water more oxygen (and remove CO2) directly from the bubbles that are being produced. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > The actual gaseous exchange happens in the water column when the bubble is on its way up. To be truthful. It is not much, but any little bit helps. The actual breakage of the bubble at the surface just releases what was in the bubble to the atmosphere, and is not actually changing what is in the water. Technically, I suppose one could say it was a part of the process, as gas is being exchanged. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:04 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Comet Finnage Problem > > Hi John, so happy to hear things are getting better. In answer to your question about the pond pump... while more aeration will surely help with a temp that high, be careful not to overdo it. Too much circulation will cause stress, making them more susceptible to illness and other issues. Air stones and diffusers are your best bet at adding aeration to the tank because they channel smaller bubbles to the surface, where the gas exchange takes place as the bubbles pop. The smaller, slower moving bubbles will diffuse more O2 in the actual tank water than faster moving, larger bubbles. If cooling of temp is all you wish to achieve, try a small powerhead near the surface to create surface agitation. If set up to blow towards another side of the tank (on an angle) this would create the agitation you need in a small enough area so as not to overly stress the fish, just be sure the power head is pointing enough at the surface to aim the water flow at the glass right at the surface. You'll want it to be just barely breaking the surface of the water to avoid excessive splashing. > > The biggest harm in warm water and goldfish is O2 depletion. (warmer water contains less O2 and goldfish require more O2 than the average aquarium fish) Small water changes using water at room temp will also help to avoid any serious problems with the fish. Refreshing their environment with new water will increase their rate of O2 replacement, beyond that the warmer temp should not bother them. > > During the really warm times it also can help to slow down feedings, which will create less waste in the tank, keeping water quality in better condition and slowing down chemical changes that use O2 in their function. Adding live plants to the tank such as hornwort, which thrives at that temperature and produces O2, can also help. Hornwort won't be eaten the same way they will eat a plant like anacharis, making it more useful for this purpose. Be sure to clean out any dead plant matter regularly, also, as this will quickly pollute water as it breaks down naturally. Hornwort that is store bought is seldom in a healthy state, so it is known to drop its needles for a period of time before it adjusts to the new water chemistry and new growth begins to form. Healthy hornwort is bright green with pink tips and slightly pinkish stems. In early stages of growth, healthy hornwort is entirely bright green, including stems. > > I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 days > > treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost > > disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail & fins are > > still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down to > > genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my friend's > > pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around 25 NO3 > > just prior to a water change. > > > > As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot long > > ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration further by > > using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a heatwave here > > just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & > > > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The > > >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When > > >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason > > >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it > > >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start > > >> the meds anytime. > > >> > > >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even > > >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build > > >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice > > >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few > > >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. > > >> > > >> Best of luck to you and your fish! > > >> > > >> > > >> Dawn > > >> > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi Dawn, > > >> > > > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder > > >> is > > >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local > > >> store > > >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, > > >> if > > >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > >> > > > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get > > >> the > > >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > > >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will > > >> let > > >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of > > >> my > > >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > > >> > > > >> > John*<o)))<* > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > > >> > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a > > >> link > > >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > > >> international. > > >> > > > > >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4990 > > >> > > > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > > >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent > > >> Marine > > >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through > > >> their > > >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. > > >> I know > > >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > > >> > > > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip > > >> lock > > >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder > > >> is on > > >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is > > >> still > > >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is > > >> on the > > >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into > > >> the > > >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being > > >> washed > > >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and > > >> letting it > > >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > > >> > > > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in > > >> the > > >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that > > >> can be a > > >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities > > >> at a > > >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long > > >> way. Once > > >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, > > >> then > > >> > > scoop it back into the container.) > > >> > > > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > >> > > wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about > > >> & > > >> > > act > > >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches > > >> including > > >> > > tail: > > >> > > > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets > > >> > > > 1 x Sarassa > > >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp > > >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > >> > > > 2 x Commons > > >> > > > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose > > >> approx > > >> > > 3 > > >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae > > >> wafers & > > >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > > >> > > indicates > > >> > > > everything is fine with my water. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in > > >> question > > >> > > was > > >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his > > >> life in > > >> > > an > > >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the > > >> stunting > > >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > > >> > > years > > >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > > >> > > badly > > >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted > > >> bodies > > >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the > > >> time. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > > >> > > useful > > >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can > > >> buy > > >> > > many > > >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > > >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my > > >> hand so > > >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. > > >> How > > >> > > long > > >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY > > >> meal > > >> > > for > > >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any > > >> specific > > >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I > > >> just > > >> > > coat > > >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon > > >> as > > >> > > > possible. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the > > >> last 6 > > >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the > > >> salt > > >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank > > >> just > > >> > > > now will be barely background levels. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is > > >> that > > >> > > one > > >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it > > >> will be > > >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest > > >> anything > > >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder > > >> that > > >> > > I > > >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. > > >> One > > >> > > of > > >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot > > >> ribbon > > >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but > > >> there > > >> > > is > > >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig > > >> out > > >> > > of > > >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not > > >> that > > >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth > > >> acrylic > > >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > > >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the > > >> bio > > >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" > > >> cubic > > >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam > > >> for > > >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters > > >> told me > > >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & > > >> they > > >> > > have > > >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I > > >> really > > >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because > > >> I > > >> > > liked > > >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do > > >> all I > > >> > > can > > >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > > >> > > excellent > > >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements > > >> to > > >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for > > >> starters. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* > > >> > > > > > ---------------<snip>--------------- >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51164	From: Chloe Hopper	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: New to Group

So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) -Chloe* (: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51165	From: haecklers	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hi! Welcome! That's a lot of fish! FYI, if your comets get too messy for the 20 gal, or if the babies outgrow their 5 gal, you can put them outside. Depending on where you live you could probably put the comets out now, I wouldn't put guppies out until mid-May most places because they don't like the very cold nights. We use those plastic tubs with the rope handles. Fish do very well outdoors even without pumps/filters. They don't even need to be fed much, tho it does help keep them tame/friendly. If you do daily water changes for the baby fish they'll grow faster. Nobody told me that when I had them. I change 20% of the water daily for my baby fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > > So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) > > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51166	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Gas Exchange [was: Comet Finnage Problem]

Hi Ray, That is what I thought was the case yet the idea of the bubble stone actually putting O2 into the water together with using 'oxygenating plants' to aerate the water is still widespread. I think the blame for this misinformation is largely due to poor advice from sellers. Dawn-my pump outfalls both fire almost horizontally across the surface giving a very choppy appearance so I guess i have some good gas exchange going on there already? John<o)))< --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Actually, while there will always be an exchange of gases wherever a gaseous form of them meets a form of them as dissolved in water (and as long as there is an imbalance of the gases being encountered), this exchange is extremely minute -- whether it be in the form of small bubbles in the water column or at the surface as they break, albeit, smaller bubbles rise much slower than large bubbles allowing more time for such an exchange. > > The majority of the gas exchange is at the surface (where the normal exchange of gas has always taken place). Aeration only serves to turn the water surface over at a much faster rate, subjecting "new" water (water that has not yet been in contact with the atmosphere) from a deeper part of the water column, enabling it to then exchange gases. This "new" water from the depths has been depleted of oxygen by the fish and loaded with excess CO2 by their respiration -- it is "hungry" for the much higher oxygen content of the atmosphere and is "relieved" to readily give up its higher than normal CO2 rate. > > While the surface of the water is where gas exchanges take place, even in unaerated aquariums with still water, this exchange is slow when compared to moving (as being aerated) water constantly exposing water from the water-column depth to the surface/atmosphere where this water's imbalance of gases are eager to be re-balance by the influences of the atmosphere -- as is always being done -- but now at a faster rate to be of more immediate use, even to a higher bioload if it should become necessary (although increasing the bioload is never recommended, when failure of the aeration is an ever existing possibility in times of power failure). > > It is a fallacy that the main purpose of aeration is to give the water more oxygen (and remove CO2) directly from the bubbles that are being produced. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo steve@ wrote: > > > > The actual gaseous exchange happens in the water column when the bubble is on its way up. To be truthful. It is not much, but any little bit helps. The actual breakage of the bubble at the surface just releases what was in the bubble to the atmosphere, and is not actually changing what is in the water. Technically, I suppose one could say it was a part of the process, as gas is being exchanged. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:04 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Comet Finnage Problem > > > > Hi John, so happy to hear things are getting better. In answer to your question about the pond pump... while more aeration will surely help with a temp that high, be careful not to overdo it. Too much circulation will cause stress, making them more susceptible to illness and other issues. Air stones and diffusers are your best bet at adding aeration to the tank because they channel smaller bubbles to the surface, where the gas exchange takes place as the bubbles pop. The smaller, slower moving bubbles will diffuse more O2 in the actual tank water than faster moving, larger bubbles. If cooling of temp is all you wish to achieve, try a small powerhead near the surface to create surface agitation. If set up to blow towards another side of the tank (on an angle) this would create the agitation you need in a small enough area so as not to overly stress the fish, just be sure the power head is pointing enough at the surface to aim the water flow at the glass right at the surface. You'll want it to be just barely breaking the surface of the water to avoid excessive splashing. > > > > The biggest harm in warm water and goldfish is O2 depletion. (warmer water contains less O2 and goldfish require more O2 than the average aquarium fish) Small water changes using water at room temp will also help to avoid any serious problems with the fish. Refreshing their environment with new water will increase their rate of O2 replacement, beyond that the warmer temp should not bother them. > > > > During the really warm times it also can help to slow down feedings, which will create less waste in the tank, keeping water quality in better condition and slowing down chemical changes that use O2 in their function. Adding live plants to the tank such as hornwort, which thrives at that temperature and produces O2, can also help. Hornwort won't be eaten the same way they will eat a plant like anacharis, making it more useful for this purpose. Be sure to clean out any dead plant matter regularly, also, as this will quickly pollute water as it breaks down naturally. Hornwort that is store bought is seldom in a healthy state, so it is known to drop its needles for a period of time before it adjusts to the new water chemistry and new growth begins to form. Healthy hornwort is bright green with pink tips and slightly pinkish stems. In early stages of growth, healthy hornwort is entirely bright green, including stems. > > > > I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 days > > > treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost > > > disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail & fins are > > > still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down to > > > genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my friend's > > > pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around 25 NO3 > > > just prior to a water change. > > > > > > As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot long > > > ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration further by > > > using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a heatwave here > > > just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on my perams & > > > > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have any problems. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with kanamycin. The > > > >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just fine. When > > > >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the meds. (The reason > > > >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the pellets, it > > > >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) You can start > > > >> the meds anytime. > > > >> > > > >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in check. Even > > > >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will still build > > > >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If you notice > > > >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I and a few > > > >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going on. > > > >> > > > >> Best of luck to you and your fish! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Dawn > > > >> > > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > >> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi Dawn, > > > >> > > > > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine store finder > > > >> is > > > >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' my local > > > >> store > > > >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some in stock, > > > >> if > > > >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > > >> > > > > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I can't get > > > >> the > > > >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets for the > > > >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your help-I will > > > >> let > > > >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is adopting 5 of > > > >> my > > > >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding stress. > > > >> > > > > >> > John*<o)))<* > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > > >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am including a > > > >> link > > > >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > > > >> international. > > > >> > > > > > >> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=49\ 90 > > > >> > > > > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help more... try > > > >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet imports Kent > > > >> Marine > > > >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find it through > > > >> their > > > >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it from them. > > > >> I know > > > >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be purchased online. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the powder in a zip > > > >> lock > > > >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the med powder > > > >> is on > > > >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and there is > > > >> still > > > >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the powder is > > > >> on the > > > >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are absorbed into > > > >> the > > > >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead of being > > > >> washed > > > >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first and > > > >> letting it > > > >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this once/day. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If the holes in > > > >> the > > > >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is something that > > > >> can be a > > > >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg quantities > > > >> at a > > > >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes a long > > > >> way. Once > > > >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it air dry, > > > >> then > > > >> > > scoop it back into the container.) > > > >> > > > > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > >> > > wrote: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to think about > > > >> & > > > >> > > act > > > >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 inches > > > >> including > > > >> > > tail: > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets > > > >> > > > 1 x Sarassa > > > >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp > > > >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > > >> > > > 2 x Commons > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a Rubbernose > > > >> approx > > > >> > > 3 > > > >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 get algae > > > >> wafers & > > > >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as the NO3 > > > >> > > indicates > > > >> > > > everything is fine with my water. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The fish in > > > >> question > > > >> > > was > > > >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years of his > > > >> life in > > > >> > > an > > > >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I guess the > > > >> stunting > > > >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took a couple of > > > >> > > years > > > >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because I have seen > > > >> > > badly > > > >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very thin wasted > > > >> bodies > > > >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me at the > > > >> time. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold of anything > > > >> > > useful > > > >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US that you can > > > >> buy > > > >> > > many > > > >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily I do have > > > >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food from my > > > >> hand so > > > >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding coated pellets. > > > >> How > > > >> > > long > > > >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I ensure EVERY > > > >> meal > > > >> > > for > > > >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there any > > > >> specific > > > >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or shall I > > > >> just > > > >> > > coat > > > >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this treatment as soon > > > >> as > > > >> > > > possible. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice in the > > > >> last 6 > > > >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I reduced the > > > >> salt > > > >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt in the tank > > > >> just > > > >> > > > now will be barely background levels. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine Elements', is > > > >> that > > > >> > > one > > > >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & hopefully it > > > >> will be > > > >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you suggest > > > >> anything > > > >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C citrus powder > > > >> that > > > >> > > I > > > >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water temperature is 74. > > > >> One > > > >> > > of > > > >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 foot > > > >> ribbon > > > >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any gravel but > > > >> there > > > >> > > is > > > >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that the fish dig > > > >> out > > > >> > > of > > > >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for them but not > > > >> that > > > >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a 15" smooth > > > >> acrylic > > > >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with the water > > > >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the wet/dry the > > > >> bio > > > >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy stuff-then a 15" > > > >> cubic > > > >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white polyester foam > > > >> for > > > >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the parameters > > > >> told me > > > >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more fish & > > > >> they > > > >> > > have > > > >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems started. I > > > >> really > > > >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish simply because > > > >> I > > > >> > > liked > > > >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I will do > > > >> all I > > > >> > > can > > > >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several ponders with > > > >> > > excellent > > > >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making arrangements > > > >> to > > > >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend for > > > >> starters. > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* > > > >> > > > > > > > ---------------<snip>--------------- > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51167	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Chloe, Welcome to the group. You have either too much in the way of fish, or not enough tank space. If that pumpkinseed is what I think it is, you need a much larger tank just for it, and to move the pleco to another, also larger, tank. I'll let the others take you through why, You have a good number of fry, as one would with active livebearers. They are going to need space to grow out in and a regular placement service to find homes for them all unless you can come to an agreement with a local store. I think that before you do anything else, you get a handle on what you have, and get yourself set to go in a direction you wish to explore with the hobby. There are many ways to go with this. As I said, others should chime in to help you (I'm a bit tied up with other stuff right now, otherwise a much more detailed reply would be here), and I'm sure you'll also here from me when needed to make or clarify a point. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Chloe Hopper Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2011 2:51 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] New to Group So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) -Chloe* (:

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51168	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hi Chloe, Welcome to the group. If putting your Comets outside is not an option then they really need their own tank-at least 20 gallons & much bigger if you plan on keeping them indoors as they grow up. Massive filtration & large + frequent partial water changes are good for these fish as they make a vast amounts of waste. You will have problems down the line keeping them with tropicals not least because of the waste factor but Goldfish generally don't do well with any other type of fish but other Goldfish. I think one of the most important things to get if you don't already have one is a test kit so you can monitor your tank water-the API Master Test Kit is good. This is an excellent page on Goldfish care: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html John*<o)))<* On 27 April 2011 11:50, Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > > > So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in > it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a > Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 > fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red > wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 > black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta > bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise > guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail > mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I > will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the > wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about > fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I > enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) > > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51169	From: William M	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Comets really need much more than 20 gallons per fish to be able to grow to their maximum size of upward of 18 inches long. That is why most people try for a goldfish pond where each goldfish should have about 100 gallons of water. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Chloe, > > Welcome to the group. If putting your Comets outside is not an option then > they really need their own tank-at least 20 gallons & much bigger if you > plan on keeping them indoors as they grow up. Massive filtration & large + > frequent partial water changes are good for these fish as they make a vast > amounts of waste. You will have problems down the line keeping them with > tropicals not least because of the waste factor but Goldfish generally don't > do well with any other type of fish but other Goldfish. > > I think one of the most important things to get if you don't already have > one is a test kit so you can monitor your tank water-the API Master Test Kit > is good. This is an excellent page on Goldfish care: > http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html > > John*<o)))<* > > On 27 April 2011 11:50, Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > > > > > > > So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in > > it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a > > Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 > > fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red > > wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 > > black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta > > bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise > > guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail > > mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I > > will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the > > wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about > > fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I > > enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51170	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/27/2011
Subject: Any suggestions?

I've had another couple of fish die for sure, two more I think died but I can't find them, and one fish I'm worried about Last night my female betta was dead, and the Cory cat this morning. I can't find one of the blue ram dwarf chiclids or the female swordtail. And the blue dwarf gourami just doesn't look healthy. He can't seem to just 'sit' like the other fish do. His nose seems to keep floating up so he's almost vertical in the water and he kind of floats up to the top of the tank. It takes a real effort for him to swim back down. I can't find anything visibly wrong with the dead fish except for the obvious problem of them being dead, and even the gourami I'm worried about looks ok physically. I've seen no signs of any fighting amongst the fish and I watch the tank a lot. The water is testing fine. The ph is 6.8, total alkalinity in the 80-120 range, Total hardness 120 and nitrite and nitrate both 0. I can't see the numbers in the thermometer cuz they're too darn small but the temp is smack in the middle of the green zone. The tank is a 20 gallon with lots of extra air in it, with many real plants and places to hide. It currently holds 4 platys, 3 mollies. 2 small angel fish, 1 blue dwarf ram chiclid, 1 swordtail, 3 dwarf gouramis and 2 bettas. (1 male, 1 female). I'm pretty sure there are 2 dead fish in there as well but even shaking the plants with the net I can't find them. Most of the fish are about an inch long; some a bit smaller and some a bit bigger. At most there is about 18" of fish in there. I want my little fishy buddies to be healthy and well. Is there something I should add, subtract or ??? Thanks for your help. Please forgive any spelling errors. We're in the midst of severe storms and I don't want to turn my computer on. Thanks! ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51171	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Gas Exchange [was: Comet Finnage Problem]

Hi John, Oxygenating plants do add oxygen directly to the water -- during daylight hours when their photosynthesis process creates more oxygen than they (the plants) can use. At this same time, they will be using up some of the CO2 that the fish are giving off during these hours, as part of their food. But, during the dark hours of the night, plants respire using oxygen and giving off CO2, just as any other living organism does. I have yet to see any aquarium even so loaded with plants that the fish can hardly swim, to have given off toxic levels of CO2 during the night which weren't dissipated through the surface leaving the fish unharmed. As for the gas exchanges at the surface, even the outflow of a filter, or the current created by a powerhead will promote a constant change over of water at the surface, allowing "spent" water (water now low in oxygen and having higher levels of CO2) to come in contact with the surface to exchange gases at a faster rate than would normally take place in a still situation. While these methods are effective and will turn over the water, quite often the current created appears little more than an undulation of the surface as wide-band ripples, not quite conducive enough to take full advantage of the circulation. On the other hand, the bubbles of aeration at the surface break up the surface film, allow the most opportunity for atmospheric gases to be exchanged -- and while these bubbles consist of atmospheric gases, their content in miniscule when compared to the same gases in contact with the surface by the atmospher itself. All of any atmospheric gases in contact with the water -- including those gases contained in breaking bubbles (as Dawn points out) -- will be exchanging gases with the water, especially where there is turbulence offering a much greater surface area for the exchange, but still, even these breaking bubbles offer only a minute part of any gaseous exchanges, allowing the atmosphere's influence to enable essentially almost all but the absolute smallest part of these exchanges. The key to the maximum efficiency in gas exchanges is in breaking up the water's surface which not only allows better dissolution of gases to and from the atmosphere but offers much more surface area for these gases to be exchanged through. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mrbushy2003" <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > That is what I thought was the case yet the idea of the bubble stone > actually putting O2 into the water together with using 'oxygenating > plants' to aerate the water is still widespread. I think the blame for > this misinformation is largely due to poor advice from sellers. > > Dawn-my pump outfalls both fire almost horizontally across the surface > giving a very choppy appearance so I guess i have some good gas exchange > going on there already? > > John<o)))< > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Actually, while there will always be an exchange of gases wherever a > gaseous form of them meets a form of them as dissolved in water (and as > long as there is an imbalance of the gases being encountered), this > exchange is extremely minute -- whether it be in the form of small > bubbles in the water column or at the surface as they break, albeit, > smaller bubbles rise much slower than large bubbles allowing more time > for such an exchange. > > > > The majority of the gas exchange is at the surface (where the normal > exchange of gas has always taken place). Aeration only serves to turn > the water surface over at a much faster rate, subjecting "new" water > (water that has not yet been in contact with the atmosphere) from a > deeper part of the water column, enabling it to then exchange gases. > This "new" water from the depths has been depleted of oxygen by the fish > and loaded with excess CO2 by their respiration -- it is "hungry" for > the much higher oxygen content of the atmosphere and is "relieved" to > readily give up its higher than normal CO2 rate. > > > > While the surface of the water is where gas exchanges take place, even > in unaerated aquariums with still water, this exchange is slow when > compared to moving (as being aerated) water constantly exposing water > from the water-column depth to the surface/atmosphere where this water's > imbalance of gases are eager to be re-balance by the influences of the > atmosphere -- as is always being done -- but now at a faster rate to be > of more immediate use, even to a higher bioload if it should become > necessary (although increasing the bioload is never recommended, when > failure of the aeration is an ever existing possibility in times of > power failure). > > > > It is a fallacy that the main purpose of aeration is to give the water > more oxygen (and remove CO2) directly from the bubbles that are being > produced. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo steve@ wrote: > > > > > > The actual gaseous exchange happens in the water column when the > bubble is on its way up. To be truthful. It is not much, but any little > bit helps. The actual breakage of the bubble at the surface just > releases what was in the bubble to the atmosphere, and is not actually > changing what is in the water. Technically, I suppose one could say it > was a part of the process, as gas is being exchanged. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 4:04 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Comet Finnage Problem > > > > > > Hi John, so happy to hear things are getting better. In answer to > your question about the pond pump... while more aeration will surely > help with a temp that high, be careful not to overdo it. Too much > circulation will cause stress, making them more susceptible to illness > and other issues. Air stones and diffusers are your best bet at adding > aeration to the tank because they channel smaller bubbles to the > surface, where the gas exchange takes place as the bubbles pop. The > smaller, slower moving bubbles will diffuse more O2 in the actual tank > water than faster moving, larger bubbles. If cooling of temp is all you > wish to achieve, try a small powerhead near the surface to create > surface agitation. If set up to blow towards another side of the tank > (on an angle) this would create the agitation you need in a small enough > area so as not to overly stress the fish, just be sure the power head is > pointing enough at the surface to aim the water flow at the glass right > at the surface. You'll want it to be just barely breaking the surface > of the water to avoid excessive splashing. > > > > > > The biggest harm in warm water and goldfish is O2 depletion. > (warmer water contains less O2 and goldfish require more O2 than the > average aquarium fish) Small water changes using water at room temp > will also help to avoid any serious problems with the fish. Refreshing > their environment with new water will increase their rate of O2 > replacement, beyond that the warmer temp should not bother them. > > > > > > During the really warm times it also can help to slow down feedings, > which will create less waste in the tank, keeping water quality in > better condition and slowing down chemical changes that use O2 in their > function. Adding live plants to the tank such as hornwort, which > thrives at that temperature and produces O2, can also help. Hornwort > won't be eaten the same way they will eat a plant like anacharis, making > it more useful for this purpose. Be sure to clean out any dead plant > matter regularly, also, as this will quickly pollute water as it breaks > down naturally. Hornwort that is store bought is seldom in a healthy > state, so it is known to drop its needles for a period of time before it > adjusts to the new water chemistry and new growth begins to form. > Healthy hornwort is bright green with pink tips and slightly pinkish > stems. In early stages of growth, healthy hornwort is entirely bright > green, including stems. > > > > > > I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Thank you very much for your advice. I have given the full 10 > days > > > > treatment of Kanamycin & the pink streaks in his tail have almost > > > > disappeared for the first time in a year which is great. His tail > & fins are > > > > still ragged at the trailing edges but I think that is more down > to > > > > genetics than anything else. I have also offloaded 5 fish to my > friend's > > > > pond but kept my water change regime the same so I now have around > 25 NO3 > > > > just prior to a water change. > > > > > > > > As I mentioned before I have a Rena 400 air pump running a 2 foot > long > > > > ribbon diffuser but I'm wondering about increasing the aeration > further by > > > > using a powerful pond air pump-especially as we are having a > heatwave here > > > > just now & the water temperature is around 80-what do you think? > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 14 April 2011 14:49, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Ok, thanks a lot Dawn-I'll certainly be keeping a close eye on > my perams & > > > > > looking for the Zoe tomorrow. I'll give you a shout if I have > any problems. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > On 14 April 2011 18:38, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> The pellets don't need to be moistened to coat them with > kanamycin. The > > > > >> pellets should contain enough oils for the meds to adhere just > fine. When > > > > >> you are able to add the Zoe, then you can do so before the > meds. (The reason > > > > >> for meds 2nd is so the Zoe doesn't wash the meds off of the > pellets, it > > > > >> makes coating them with both much easier and more effective) > You can start > > > > >> the meds anytime. > > > > >> > > > > >> Also, keep up the water changes so the water params stay in > check. Even > > > > >> though you are moving some of the fish out soon, the waste will > still build > > > > >> up quickly if you slow down on water changes. Keep testing. If > you notice > > > > >> any jumps in water chemistry and are worried, please post. I > and a few > > > > >> others here in the group can help you if we know whats going > on. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best of luck to you and your fish! > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Dawn > > > > >> > > > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Hi Dawn, > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Sorry-I am in Leicester! That Interpet import Kent Marine > store finder > > > > >> is > > > > >> > an excellent link, I put in my postcode & 'Ocean Commotion' > my local > > > > >> store > > > > >> > came up so I will ring them tomorrow & see if they have some > in stock, > > > > >> if > > > > >> > not I'm sure they can order me some. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > I want to start the antibiotic treatment right away so if I > can't get > > > > >> the > > > > >> > Zoe immediately is it ok to use water to moisten the pellets > for the > > > > >> > Kanamycin powder to stick to them? Thank you for all your > help-I will > > > > >> let > > > > >> > you know how things go, one of my friends with a pond is > adopting 5 of > > > > >> my > > > > >> > fish tomorrow so that will help ease the situation regarding > stress. > > > > >> > > > > > >> > John*<o)))<* > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > On 13 April 2011 19:46, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > > > >> > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@>wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > John, the Zoe should be pretty easy to get in the UK. I am > including a > > > > >> link > > > > >> > > to it at Fosters & Smith, I know they and a few others ship > > > > >> international. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=49\ > 90 > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > If I knew what part of the UK you were in that might help > more... try > > > > >> > > checking this site http://www.interpet.co.uk/ Interpet > imports Kent > > > > >> Marine > > > > >> > > products directly from the manufacturer, if you can't find > it through > > > > >> their > > > > >> > > site try giving them a call or asking your lfs to order it > from them. > > > > >> I know > > > > >> > > most of the products interpet offers/imports can be > purchased online. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > In regards to the kanamycin, put a small amount of the > powder in a zip > > > > >> lock > > > > >> > > baggie with the pellets, seal, and shake until all of the > med powder > > > > >> is on > > > > >> > > the food instead of loose in the bag. If you shake good and > there is > > > > >> still > > > > >> > > powder in the bag, add a few more pellets until all of the > powder is > > > > >> on the > > > > >> > > food. Let sit for at least 20 minutes so the meds are > absorbed into > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > food, this will help ensure they get into the fish instead > of being > > > > >> washed > > > > >> > > away once the food hits the water. Soaking in the Zoe first > and > > > > >> letting it > > > > >> > > dry will help the kanamycin adhere to it. Feed this > once/day. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I would offer the kanamycin treated food for 10 days. If > the holes in > > > > >> the > > > > >> > > fins remain, continue for another 4 days. The Zoe is > something that > > > > >> can be a > > > > >> > > permanent addition to the food. (I soak food in Zoe in lg > quantities > > > > >> at a > > > > >> > > time so I don't have to do it real often. A little bit goes > a long > > > > >> way. Once > > > > >> > > the food is just wet I spread it out on a plate and let it > air dry, > > > > >> then > > > > >> > > scoop it back into the container.) > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > I hope this helps. If you need more, please let me know. > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@> > > > > >> > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Thanks for those replies & certainly something for me to > think about > > > > >> & > > > > >> > > act > > > > >> > > > on-it seems I was doing a lot of stuff wrong here. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Amber-I have 11 fish in the tank ranging from 5 to 9 > inches > > > > >> including > > > > >> > > tail: > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > 4 x Comets > > > > >> > > > 1 x Sarassa > > > > >> > > > 1 x Blue Carp > > > > >> > > > 1 x Crucian Carp > > > > >> > > > 2 x Commons > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > In addition I have 2 Plecos that keep the tank clean-a > Rubbernose > > > > >> approx > > > > >> > > 3 > > > > >> > > > inches long & a High Fin approx 6 inches long. These 2 > get algae > > > > >> wafers & > > > > >> > > > cucumber on a regular basis. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > William-I didn't realise my bio load would be too much as > the NO3 > > > > >> > > indicates > > > > >> > > > everything is fine with my water. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Dawn-thank you so much for your detailed comments. The > fish in > > > > >> question > > > > >> > > was > > > > >> > > > rescued back in 2005 after having spent the first 2 years > of his > > > > >> life in > > > > >> > > an > > > > >> > > > unfiltered bowl together with 2 of my other fish so I > guess the > > > > >> stunting > > > > >> > > > problem could have started back then even though it took > a couple of > > > > >> > > years > > > > >> > > > to show itself? I didn't think this was an issue because > I have seen > > > > >> > > badly > > > > >> > > > stunted fish that appear to have enlarged heads & very > thin wasted > > > > >> bodies > > > > >> > > > yet none of mine looked like that so it didn't concern me > at the > > > > >> time. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Regarding the medications-as I am in the UK getting hold > of anything > > > > >> > > useful > > > > >> > > > is a comlete nightmare, you are so fortunate in the US > that you can > > > > >> buy > > > > >> > > many > > > > >> > > > products you need for your pets over the counter. Luckily > I do have > > > > >> > > > Kanamycin Sulfate powder & all of my fish will take food > from my > > > > >> hand so > > > > >> > > > there is no problem there with my targeting feeding > coated pellets. > > > > >> How > > > > >> > > long > > > > >> > > > would you suggest I keep up the treatment & should I > ensure EVERY > > > > >> meal > > > > >> > > for > > > > >> > > > him is medicated during the course of treatment? Is there > any > > > > >> specific > > > > >> > > > amount of dosage to use? [I have some digital scales] or > shall I > > > > >> just > > > > >> > > coat > > > > >> > > > the pellets with the powder? I want to start this > treatment as soon > > > > >> as > > > > >> > > > possible. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > I have only salted the tank up the full 0.9% amount twice > in the > > > > >> last 6 > > > > >> > > > months & each time was only for a few days-after that I > reduced the > > > > >> salt > > > > >> > > > simply by my regular water changes so the amount of salt > in the tank > > > > >> just > > > > >> > > > now will be barely background levels. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Vitamin Supplements-I found Kent Marine Zoe 'Marine > Elements', is > > > > >> that > > > > >> > > one > > > > >> > > > ok you mean? If not then yes please-send me a link & > hopefully it > > > > >> will be > > > > >> > > > available in the UK. If I cannot get hold of any can you > suggest > > > > >> anything > > > > >> > > > similar that might be used? I already use a vitamin C > citrus powder > > > > >> that > > > > >> > > I > > > > >> > > > mix with water & coat their pellets in once a week. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Environment-my O2 is around 7-8 mg/l & the water > temperature is 74. > > > > >> One > > > > >> > > of > > > > >> > > > my return pumps runs a full-width spraybar & there is a 2 > foot > > > > >> ribbon > > > > >> > > > diffuser along the bottom of the tank. I don't have any > gravel but > > > > >> there > > > > >> > > is > > > > >> > > > usually a good covering of sand all over the base that > the fish dig > > > > >> out > > > > >> > > of > > > > >> > > > the planted Vallis pots. There is plenty of space for > them but not > > > > >> that > > > > >> > > > much decor apart from the 3 plant pots & I also have a > 15" smooth > > > > >> acrylic > > > > >> > > > tunnel that gets plenty of use. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Filters-I never use carbon unless there is a problem with > the water > > > > >> > > > quality-ie I have to remove any medications etc. In the > wet/dry the > > > > >> bio > > > > >> > > > filter consists of 2 x filter socks for the heavy > stuff-then a 15" > > > > >> cubic > > > > >> > > > area of nylon pan scrubbers/bio balls & finally white > polyester foam > > > > >> for > > > > >> > > > polishing the water before returning to the tank. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > I was starting to think I could be overstocked but the > parameters > > > > >> told me > > > > >> > > > otherwise so I kept going. Last year I added several more > fish & > > > > >> they > > > > >> > > have > > > > >> > > > grown quickly which I guess is where my major problems > started. I > > > > >> really > > > > >> > > > should have resisted the temptation to add more fish > simply because > > > > >> I > > > > >> > > liked > > > > >> > > > the look of them. I dearly love my original few fish so I > will do > > > > >> all I > > > > >> > > can > > > > >> > > > to get things back on track for them. I know several > ponders with > > > > >> > > excellent > > > > >> > > > water quality & plenty of space so I am already making > arrangements > > > > >> to > > > > >> > > > rehome at least 5 of my biggest fish this coming weekend > for > > > > >> starters. > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > ---------------<snip>--------------- > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51172	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hi Chloe, Just want to offer you yet another welcome to the Group. Glad that you've found us. Looks like you have quite an interest in the hobby already. I note that you intend to be asking a lot of questions, which is what WE welcome, as that's part of what we enjoy most -- to be able to help the beginner. Sometimes, these questions just don't occur to some beginners though, as they may not yet be experiencing problems with their current methods so far. This doesn't mean that they may not have major problems later, which we try to nip in the bud before they happen and then only serve to discourage new hobbyists. While you haven't asked any questions yet, I would hope that you'd still be open to constructive suggestions aimed towards helping you in the long run. While I find your assortment of fishes very interesting, please know that your 19 fish in the 20 gallon tank is far too crowded to be sustained successfully long-term. While there's an old (and somewhat outdated) rule of thumb for determining the amount of fish to bge comfortably housed in any given size aquarium, this rule stil stands as being quite useful when used with fish up to 3" in length as a general guide. This rule suggests having no more than 1" of fish per gallon of water. If all of your fish were only 1" long, and this would be their maximum size, then you would come just under the wire as far as fish capacity for your tank. But with many of your fish being (or eventually obtaining) 2" and 3", your bioload is just too large for 20 gallons of water. I'd suggest re-homing a number of them until your total bioload reaches only 20" of fish as an absolute maximum. Beyond that, and you are asking for unforeseen problems down the road as you're too crowded. I would add too, that, while many of us enjoy goldfish, they do not belong in a tropical aquarium. Not only are their requirements different (doing best when kept at or below 68 o), but they are very messy fish creating lots of waste. Besides all this, they will grow -- provided you give them the proper requirements -- to a length of about 14" or so if they are the single-tailed common or Comet varieties, or 8" to 10" and as round as a softball if they're of the more Fancy varieties. They are really pond fish but may be kept in a large aquarium of their own if so desired. Just in passing, if your Plecostomus in your 10 gallon tank is one of the common varieties, it can grow to an average of 18" -- almost as long as a 10 gallon tank, although it could never be maintained in such a small tank when reaching this size. Something else you may want to give some thought to. Best wishes in your keeping of these finny critters; let us know if you have any questions. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > > So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) > > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51173	From: Ray	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Karlene, Have you posted about this problem previously? I'm asking this, as you mention that you've had ANOTHER couple of fish die -- as though you've lost some others just recently. I see nothing wrong with your water parameters, although you don't offer an ammonia reading. Then too, I don't know if you're using test strips or a liquid test kit. I notice you currently have 16 fish in this 20 gallon tank, although they are averaging one inch. While this present bioload is not overwhelming, and should not be your reason for fish dying off at this time, you should know thast when considering the 1" of fish per gallon rule (I see you figured it to be about 18" of fish) up to 3", that you really need to consider the fishes' maximum eventual size when full grown for future considerations. For starters, we need to know how long the tank has been set up, your weekly maintenance regimen, the water conditioner you use and how much and how often you feed. I have some definite suspicions as to what may be going on here, just going by what you've included so far, but without further input it's really nothing but speculation at this point in time. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > I've had another couple of fish die for sure, two more I think died but I can't find them, and one fish I'm worried about > > Last night my female betta was dead, and the Cory cat this morning. I can't find one of the blue ram dwarf chiclids or the female swordtail. And the blue dwarf gourami just doesn't look healthy. He can't seem to just 'sit' like the other fish do. His nose seems to keep floating up so he's almost vertical in the water and he kind of floats up to the top of the tank. It takes a real effort for him to swim back down. > > I can't find anything visibly wrong with the dead fish except for the obvious problem of them being dead, and even the gourami I'm worried about looks ok physically. I've seen no signs of any fighting amongst the fish and I watch the tank a lot. > > The water is testing fine. The ph is 6.8, total alkalinity in the 80-120 range, > Total hardness 120 and nitrite and nitrate both 0. I can't see the numbers in the thermometer cuz they're too darn small but the temp is smack in the middle of the green zone. The tank is a 20 gallon with lots of extra air in it, with many real plants and places to hide. > > It currently holds 4 platys, 3 mollies. 2 small angel fish, 1 blue dwarf ram chiclid, 1 swordtail, 3 dwarf gouramis and 2 bettas. (1 male, 1 female). I'm pretty sure there are 2 dead fish in there as well but even shaking the plants with the net I can't find them. Most of the fish are about an inch long; some a bit smaller and some a bit bigger. At most there is about 18" of fish in there. > > I want my little fishy buddies to be healthy and well. Is there something I should add, subtract or ??? > > Thanks for your help. Please forgive any spelling errors. We're in the midst of severe storms and I don't want to turn my computer on. > > Thanks! > ~Karlene > Sent from my iPhone >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51174	From: haecklers	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Hi! Welcome! That's a lot to type into an iPhone! Is this a new tank setup or has it been running awhile? If it's new I'm surprised your numbers are so good with so many fish, it must be the plants! First, the female betta likely was killed by the male. You can't put them together except very carefully for breeding and then max for a day or so. Rams are very sensitive and difficult fish, not for beginners, and often die even for pros when they are new and from pet stores. A lot of fish from the pet store are sick from the stress of shipping and differences in water from one place to another, so many people will quarantine new fish to keep them from spreading disease to other fish. In the first two weeks it's not uncommon for a new fish to die. I think your gourami is sick from what you've said, and the safest thing for the other fish in the tank is to remove him - do you have anywhere else you can put him? Here are some things to look for on your new fish to see if they are sick: are the fins damaged-looking? Are they clamping their fins close to their bodies? Are their tails open, or kind of clamped? Do you see any spots on the fish like grains of salt or dirty areas or black specks? Do they have whitish patches or mucusy stuff hanging from them? Is there anywhere on the fish that looks fuzzy or cottony? Are their bodies swollen? Are any of them breathing hard? Are any hanging in a corner or up at the top or bottom of the tank and not swimming much? Sometimes even healthy fish will hide in a new tank but usually by the second day they will be exploring and looking for food. If they aren't being active, it's cause for concern. Use your test kit frequently because the water could change quickly if it's a new tank and already fully-stocked because it hasn't built up the bacteria that would break down the fish pee. Do you think the store where you got them will let you return fish? The fish you have "fit" right now but most of them will get bigger and then your tank will be overcrowded. Many of your fish will be around 2" when they reach full-size, the angelfish reach around 8". In your place, I'd return: Both angelfish - because they get really large and predatory when full-grown Two of the gouramis - many sources say the males get really territorial and you could have bloodshed on your hands with a trio One of the bettas - the male will kill the other female, it's just a matter of time, and if he doesn't and they spawn he'll try to kill any fish that comes near his nest (you can put one of them in a 1-gallon bowl if you want to keep them both). The ram - it's the fish most likely to die while you gain experience, they are really very fragile. Mollies are brackish water fish and benefit from a little salt added to the water. Without it, they tend to get white patches on their skin - illness. If the store lets you return fish, I might take them back too and let the tank adjust to the remaining fish, then do some research to see what new ones to add. I always look up fish online before buying them to see how big they get, what temperature they need, and any behaviors I need to know about (like killing other fish or needing to be in a school with more of their own kind). I hope this helps! - R --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > I've had another couple of fish die for sure, two more I think died but I can't find them, and one fish I'm worried about > > Last night my female betta was dead, and the Cory cat this morning. I can't find one of the blue ram dwarf chiclids or the female swordtail. And the blue dwarf gourami just doesn't look healthy. He can't seem to just 'sit' like the other fish do. His nose seems to keep floating up so he's almost vertical in the water and he kind of floats up to the top of the tank. It takes a real effort for him to swim back down. > > I can't find anything visibly wrong with the dead fish except for the obvious problem of them being dead, and even the gourami I'm worried about looks ok physically. I've seen no signs of any fighting amongst the fish and I watch the tank a lot. > > The water is testing fine. The ph is 6.8, total alkalinity in the 80-120 range, > Total hardness 120 and nitrite and nitrate both 0. I can't see the numbers in the thermometer cuz they're too darn small but the temp is smack in the middle of the green zone. The tank is a 20 gallon with lots of extra air in it, with many real plants and places to hide. > > It currently holds 4 platys, 3 mollies. 2 small angel fish, 1 blue dwarf ram chiclid, 1 swordtail, 3 dwarf gouramis and 2 bettas. (1 male, 1 female). I'm pretty sure there are 2 dead fish in there as well but even shaking the plants with the net I can't find them. Most of the fish are about an inch long; some a bit smaller and some a bit bigger. At most there is about 18" of fish in there. > > I want my little fishy buddies to be healthy and well. Is there something I should add, subtract or ??? > > Thanks for your help. Please forgive any spelling errors. We're in the midst of severe storms and I don't want to turn my computer on. > > Thanks! > ~Karlene > Sent from my iPhone >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51175	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Did you take a reading for ammonia when you tested the water? Dead fish put off ammonia and it can quickly lead to more fish deaths if you don't find those dead fish in your tank. I do have to agree about rehoming some of your fish, the 1 inch per gallon is actually NOT a very good rule, as you can't keep a 5 inch fish in a 20 gallon tank for more than a very temporary housing, it will cause health issues and such. In a 20 gallon or smaller tank you have to stick with fish that do not grow more than 2 inches, as you need to look at their max size for the tank you keep them in. Angel fish will need at least a 30 gallon, preferably larger as they are very territorial (even towards each other), and need to have plenty of space to not feel crowded, as that can make them even more aggressive, especially if you happened to buy a male/female and they pair up to spawn. Amber On 4/27/2011 7:50 PM, Karlene Turkington wrote: > > I've had another couple of fish die for sure, two more I think died > but I can't find them, and one fish I'm worried about > > Last night my female betta was dead, and the Cory cat this morning. I > can't find one of the blue ram dwarf chiclids or the female swordtail. > And the blue dwarf gourami just doesn't look healthy. He can't seem to > just 'sit' like the other fish do. His nose seems to keep floating up > so he's almost vertical in the water and he kind of floats up to the > top of the tank. It takes a real effort for him to swim back down. > > I can't find anything visibly wrong with the dead fish except for the > obvious problem of them being dead, and even the gourami I'm worried > about looks ok physically. I've seen no signs of any fighting amongst > the fish and I watch the tank a lot. > > The water is testing fine. The ph is 6.8, total alkalinity in the > 80-120 range, > Total hardness 120 and nitrite and nitrate both 0. I can't see the > numbers in the thermometer cuz they're too darn small but the temp is > smack in the middle of the green zone. The tank is a 20 gallon with > lots of extra air in it, with many real plants and places to hide. > > It currently holds 4 platys, 3 mollies. 2 small angel fish, 1 blue > dwarf ram chiclid, 1 swordtail, 3 dwarf gouramis and 2 bettas. (1 > male, 1 female). I'm pretty sure there are 2 dead fish in there as > well but even shaking the plants with the net I can't find them. Most > of the fish are about an inch long; some a bit smaller and some a bit > bigger. At most there is about 18" of fish in there. > > I want my little fishy buddies to be healthy and well. Is there > something I should add, subtract or ??? > > Thanks for your help. Please forgive any spelling errors. We're in the > midst of severe storms and I don't want to turn my computer on. > > Thanks! > ~Karlene > Sent from my iPhone > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51176	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Ray, Karlene posted a little while ago about her cloudy water tank problem. I think it was about a week ago? Amber On 4/28/2011 4:06 AM, Ray wrote: > > Karlene, > > Have you posted about this problem previously? I'm asking this, as you > mention that you've had ANOTHER couple of fish die -- as though you've > lost some others just recently. I see nothing wrong with your water > parameters, although you don't offer an ammonia reading. Then too, I > don't know if you're using test strips or a liquid test kit. > > I notice you currently have 16 fish in this 20 gallon tank, although > they are averaging one inch. While this present bioload is not > overwhelming, and should not be your reason for fish dying off at this > time, you should know thast when considering the 1" of fish per gallon > rule (I see you figured it to be about 18" of fish) up to 3", that you > really need to consider the fishes' maximum eventual size when full > grown for future considerations. > > For starters, we need to know how long the tank has been set up, your > weekly maintenance regimen, the water conditioner you use and how much > and how often you feed. I have some definite suspicions as to what may > be going on here, just going by what you've included so far, but > without further input it's really nothing but speculation at this > point in time. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Karlene Turkington > <tarkom@...> wrote: > > > > I've had another couple of fish die for sure, two more I think died > but I can't find them, and one fish I'm worried about > > > > Last night my female betta was dead, and the Cory cat this morning. > I can't find one of the blue ram dwarf chiclids or the female > swordtail. And the blue dwarf gourami just doesn't look healthy. He > can't seem to just 'sit' like the other fish do. His nose seems to > keep floating up so he's almost vertical in the water and he kind of > floats up to the top of the tank. It takes a real effort for him to > swim back down. > > > > I can't find anything visibly wrong with the dead fish except for > the obvious problem of them being dead, and even the gourami I'm > worried about looks ok physically. I've seen no signs of any fighting > amongst the fish and I watch the tank a lot. > > > > The water is testing fine. The ph is 6.8, total alkalinity in the > 80-120 range, > > Total hardness 120 and nitrite and nitrate both 0. I can't see the > numbers in the thermometer cuz they're too darn small but the temp is > smack in the middle of the green zone. The tank is a 20 gallon with > lots of extra air in it, with many real plants and places to hide. > > > > It currently holds 4 platys, 3 mollies. 2 small angel fish, 1 blue > dwarf ram chiclid, 1 swordtail, 3 dwarf gouramis and 2 bettas. (1 > male, 1 female). I'm pretty sure there are 2 dead fish in there as > well but even shaking the plants with the net I can't find them. Most > of the fish are about an inch long; some a bit smaller and some a bit > bigger. At most there is about 18" of fish in there. > > > > I want my little fishy buddies to be healthy and well. Is there > something I should add, subtract or ??? > > > > Thanks for your help. Please forgive any spelling errors. We're in > the midst of severe storms and I don't want to turn my computer on. > > > > Thanks! > > ~Karlene > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51177	From: joe t	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Karlene, not knowing any of the particulars of the tank you are speaking of, I can tell you, right off the bat, you have way too many fish in that 20 gallon tank! Going by your count, I came up with 16 fish and if the two you think are dead are still in there that means you had at least 18+ fish. (You say some had died earlier.) That could be a real good reason you are having trouble. Way too many fish-----no matter how much air you are pumping in. And having real plants is nice, but not to the point of having too many. You may be actully cutting down on the volume of water in the tank and the space for the fish to swim. If the plants are reaching the top, you could also be cutting down on the movement of the water surface. joe t.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51178	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Have You Heard of This Happening

Hi All, I'm fairly new. I think I introduced myself already. I have a puzzling question for you. I have a 125 gal. freshwater tank with 20 African Cichlids. It's been 7+ weeks since I first set-up the tank and waited for it to cycle. I did the first water change this past weekend, tested the water and everything checked out fine including ammonia (o). For filtration I have a Rena 4G canister filter and an Aqua Clear Powerhead 70 Water Pump running at the other corner of my tank. Here's the puzzle. When I went to feed the fish I saw that the water current had slowed down. I checked out the pump and that looked okay . I have the water flowing out of the side rather than the bottom. When I looked at the bottom of the tank I saw the cone from the pump with something in it. It turned out to be one of my Flamebacks. It was beyond saving. It seems that it got sucked up into the cone by the pump. I had no idea that the bottom of the pump acts as a strong vacuum. Has that happened to anyone? Is there anyway I can prevent it from happening to my other fish? I know I need good surface circulation for my Cichlids but I'm afraid of others getting caught up so I reversed the flow to the bottom rather than the side. Is this okay? Any thoughts will be grately appreciated. Thanks! Gail

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51179	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening

The Rena filstar xp 4's have a lot of suction to them, mine easily sucks up small fry and some fish get pulled towards it and have to fight the suction to get away. Which filter did you have problems with exactly? Amber On 4/28/2011 1:13 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > Hi All, > I'm fairly new. I think I introduced myself already. I have a puzzling question for you. > I have a 125 gal. freshwater tank with 20 African Cichlids. It's been 7+ weeks since I first > set-up the tank and waited for it to cycle. I did the first water change this past weekend, > tested the water and everything checked out fine including ammonia (o). For filtration > I have a Rena 4G canister filter and an Aqua Clear Powerhead 70 Water Pump running at > the other corner of my tank. Here's the puzzle. When I went to feed the fish I saw that > the water current had slowed down. I checked out the pump and that looked okay > . I have the water flowing out of the side rather than the bottom. When I looked at the bottom > of the tank I saw the cone from the pump with something in it. It turned out to be one of my > Flamebacks. It was beyond saving. It seems that it got sucked up into the cone by the pump. > I had no idea that the bottom of the pump acts as a strong vacuum. Has that happened to anyone? > Is there anyway I can prevent it from happening to my other fish? I know I need good surface circulation > for my Cichlids but I'm afraid of others getting caught up so I reversed the flow to the > bottom rather than the side. Is this okay? Any thoughts will be grately appreciated. > > Thanks! > Gail > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51180	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening

Wow Amber, you just gave me another question to ask but I'll answer yours first. I had the problem with the AquaClear Powerhead 70 Water Pump. I got it to circulate water at the other end of my tank where there was a dead spot. Now my new question is: You say your Rena Filstar XP 4 has a lot of suction to it? I can barely feel mine. I wonder why. Gail > The Rena filstar xp 4's have a lot of suction to them, mine easily > sucks up small fry and some fish get pulled towards it and have to > fight the suction to get away. Which filter did you have problems > with exactly? > > Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51181	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. A way of fooling the algae. So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51182	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: Have You Heard of This Happening

How long has it been since you cleaned it? Is it really far below the tank (lots of hose to pump the water through)? I have an aquaclear but the only time I've had fish stuck in the intake is when they were sickly and died then got stuck to the intake. Amber On 4/28/2011 6:18 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > Wow Amber, you just gave me another question to ask but I'll answer yours first. > I had the problem with the AquaClear Powerhead 70 Water Pump. I got it to > circulate water at the other end of my tank where there was a dead spot. > > Now my new question is: You say your Rena Filstar XP 4 has a lot of suction to it? > I can barely feel mine. I wonder why. > > Gail > >> The Rena filstar xp 4's have a lot of suction to them, mine easily >> sucks up small fry and some fish get pulled towards it and have to >> fight the suction to get away. Which filter did you have problems >> with exactly? >> >> Amber > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51183	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/28/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

Walmart has a digital timer with a battery backup that can program up to 7 days, but not sure if it can be setup to turn off/on multiple times a day... Might be worth a look though. Amber On 4/28/2011 6:22 PM, laurie (Mother Mastiff) wrote: > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > A way of fooling the algae. > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51184	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

Laurie, Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light that determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., not the timing of the on cycles. However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that would be OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, but it probably would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not the times, of providing light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer to turn on the lights during the time they are away at work, so they can both get enough light for the plants and fish, and enjoy the fish in the evening when it is dark outside. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of laurie (Mother Mastiff) Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. A way of fooling the algae. So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51185	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

That has also been recommended to me, more as a way of increasing natural CO2 since it is produced only when the lights are off. I tried it for a while and did not notice any advantage or disadvantage so I switched back to 2 daily cycles (day and night) instead of 4. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 4:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water Laurie, Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light that determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., not the timing of the on cycles. However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that would be OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, but it probably would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not the times, of providing light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer to turn on the lights during the time they are away at work, so they can both get enough light for the plants and fish, and enjoy the fish in the evening when it is dark outside. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of laurie (Mother Mastiff) Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com <mailto:raleighaquariumsociety%40yahoogroups.com> Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com <mailto:UniQuaria%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. A way of fooling the algae. So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51186	From: joe t	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

?????? I am into plants, and I never heard of such a thing. If this came from someone authorative I would sure like to know who it is. Maybe I can learn something new. What I can tell you is that the duration of the lighting is not as important as the strength of the lighting. In other words, you can have weak lighting on the tank all day long and the plants (high light plants) are not going to thrive. This is where you may have an algae problem. Algae usually manifests itself when there is a superfluous amount of "food" for the plants to handle. You have to play around with the tank until the plants that you do want take hold and are thriving. Then you gradually alter the amount of plant nutrients you use. When you reach that balance where the plants are using all the nutrients, algae will not be too much a problem since it thrives on the excess that the plants could not handle. In my experience, you are always going to have some algae that is easily cleaned away. joe t --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)" <mother@...> wrote: > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > A way of fooling the algae. > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51187	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

Actually on the Walstad forums it was suggest to do a light cycle similar to this by Diane Walstad herself. She calls this a Siesta, it gives the plants/fish time to build up more CO2 in your tank and then when your lights come back on the plants start producing more oxygen. If you're using fertilizers/CO2 this wouldn't matter, but often plants run out of CO2 at some point during the day and that's when the algae kicks in. I don't know if it's proven to work, but I know that it was suggested to me when I asked about setting up my Walstad tanks on her forums. Amber On 4/29/2011 12:14 AM, Steve Szabo wrote: > > Laurie, > > Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light > that determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., > not the timing of the on cycles. > > However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that > would be OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, > but it probably would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not > the times, of providing light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer > to turn on the lights during the time they are away at work, so they > can both get enough light for the plants and fish, and enjoy the fish > in the evening when it is dark outside. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of laurie (Mother > Mastiff) > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM > To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:raleighaquariumsociety%40yahoogroups.com> > Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:UniQuaria%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > A way of fooling the algae. > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51188	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

I have to agree with Steve here about it sounding like a crock. Algae is a plant. What affects your other plants will also affect algae growth and vice versa. Of the many things that cause algae to grow are excess amounts of nutrients (more than your other live plants can use), phosphate in the water, old light bulbs that need changing (they lose/change their spectrum over time and most bulbs should be changed every 6 - 12 months), and excess amounts of lighting, be it wattage or the number of hours of light in a day. There are many species of algae and each has its own preferences for conditions, just as other live plants do. An on/off cycle of lighting such as you describe 3 - 4 times/day is not going to prevent algae growth, you will not "trick" it. Algae grows when the conditions are conducive for it, this happens in any aquatic environment. Instead of seeking a timer (that may or may not exist) to accommodate an erratic lighting schedule (which will make all of your live plants suffer) I would more suggest you find a new source of advice (such as this group) from people who really know what they're talking about. As a newbie to fish keeping there will be many out there who take advantage of your lack of experience in the hobby, beware of bad information, it runs rampant in pet stores as well as online. Always check and double check the info offered to you to be sure it is accurate and safe for your aquarium, animals, and pocketbook. Best of luck to you and welcome to the hobby! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Laurie, > > Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light that determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., not the timing of the on cycles. > > However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that would be OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, but it probably would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not the times, of providing light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer to turn on the lights during the time they are away at work, so they can both get enough light for the plants and fish, and enjoy the fish in the evening when it is dark outside. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM > To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > A way of fooling the algae. > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51189	From: john Lewis	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: New to Group

Hello: Welcome to the group. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, April 27, 2011 2:50:55 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] New to Group So I am new to the group and having fish as a hobby however my interest in it is growing FAST, I have 4 tanks, all freshwater, 1 10 gallon with a Pumpkin seed Sunfish and a Plecostomus, 20 Gallon with 3 dalmatian mollies 1 fancy guppy 2 female guppies 1 neon tuxedo guppy 1 mickey mouse platy 1 red wag platy 1 sunburst platy 1 silver molly 1 cremecicle lyretail molly 1 black molly 2 comets 2 zebra danios 2 snails and 2 fathead minnows a betta bowl with 1 male crowntail, and a 5 gallon with 42 babies-7 turquoise guppies 5 silver mollies 10 fancy guppies and 20 cremecicle lyretail mollies. I love my fish and hope to expand my fish collection even more. I will probably be posting a lot of questions being that I am new to the wonderful world of fish but I hope i dont ask too many. I know a bit about fish so maybe I can help someone with something at some point. Well I hope I enjoy this group and grow in my interest in fish. :) -Chloe* (: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51190	From: Karlene	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Hello. Thanks for commenting. I'm pleased to announce that everybody is still alive and swimming, at least for the moment. Hopefully that will continue to be the case. As I thought I said initially, there has been nothing "wrong" with the dead fish except the fact that they're dead - they don't have any white spots, markings or "fuzz" on them, no slime, no obvious injuries - they look fine, just dead. The rest of the fish appear healthy and happy and active . . . oh, except for the dwarf gourami. (Not the blue dwarf.) He's in laying on his side and apparantly dying - sigh! I wish I knew why. Though, the guy at the LFS told me they aren't very hardy fish. The two MIA and presumed dead fish are still MIA and presumed dead, though I can't find their bodies. For whomever asked, these fish came from PetCo, and they don't take fish back. Muddling on here. Wish the fish luck! ~Karlene [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51191	From: Karlene	Date: 4/29/2011
Subject: More Newbie Questions

Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this time. I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and wanting to learn? One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in the common tanks and then sold to me. Thanks for your suggestions and insight. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51192	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Karlene... IMHO. the best book you could ever read is Diane Walstad's book: "The Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" . It is more "back to the basics" approach to maintaining a tank with minimal interference. Starting a new tank?.. Beg borrow or steal some filter media from an established tank that you feel confident is healthy..Or.. grab some substrate from a tank you trust, put it in a stocking and immerse it in the newly filled tank... Both those mediums are hot-beds of beneficial bacteria... If you must, add some chemical ammonia... (I don't go this way so do not know the dosage)... .or.. pick up some cheaper fish, (barbs).. and add them a few at a time over the course of 2 - 4 days... say till ya get 6-8 in that 75g. Monitor your water for these 3-5 days and you'll see initially an ammonia build up till the bacteria starts working on it... then you'll see a nitrite spike till that's attacked.. followed by a nitrate spike.. which will once again be attacked until you're reading 0 on all three tests... The water column is the least capable of transferring the bacteria colony needed to get your cycle established or completed. Good luck with the 75. p.s. I managed to get my 125 cycled and hosting DISCUS and ANGELS in 6 days or so... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 2:02:14 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] More Newbie Questions Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this time. I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and wanting to learn? One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in the common tanks and then sold to me. Thanks for your suggestions and insight. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51193	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Dwarf Gourami's... there is a disease associated with these guys and even has the name Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus. It's a scourge of the Dwarf G. community. Ya ever notice it's hard to find a female DG for sale? The disease has no cure and is very prevelent in the community . I've got two males and am scared witless of introducing a store bought fem for their company. Bill in Va. Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:36:30 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? Hello. Thanks for commenting. I'm pleased to announce that everybody is still alive and swimming, at least for the moment. Hopefully that will continue to be the case. As I thought I said initially, there has been nothing "wrong" with the dead fish except the fact that they're dead - they don't have any white spots, markings or "fuzz" on them, no slime, no obvious injuries - they look fine, just dead. The rest of the fish appear healthy and happy and active . . . oh, except for the dwarf gourami. (Not the blue dwarf.) He's in laying on his side and apparantly dying - sigh! I wish I knew why. Though, the guy at the LFS told me they aren't very hardy fish. The two MIA and presumed dead fish are still MIA and presumed dead, though I can't find their bodies. For whomever asked, these fish came from PetCo, and they don't take fish back. Muddling on here. Wish the fish luck! ~Karlene [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51194	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

I highly recommend Diana Walstad's book "The Natural Planted Aquarium" for setting up your tank - she'll get you off to a good start with the substrate and plants. She also has a forum and a lot of her writings are available online. I've always been happy with the fish I got on Aquabid. I always got them directly from the breeder. A few pet stores sell on there as well, they sell what looks to be imported fish, I stay away from them as I don't see how theirs are any better than pet stores, except extra cost for shipping. You can also get plants online and I've had only good experiences with that, tho I got some Java Moss from ebay that wasn't - it all died. My current favorite is Sweet Aquatics, which sells on aquabid but also has a website with more selections. I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted tanks (I got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay pellets). It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the fish waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. It's so much cheaper than the $30/bag and up plant substrates, and you may need 2-3 bags of those for a large aquarium! In the alternative health world they say that betonite clay binds to toxic heavy metals and is a great chelating agent - I figure in my water it may also play that role, keeping the water safer for the fish. There are agricultural chemicals in my water and I read they bind to clay to become functionally inert (like Round-Up - farmers spray thousands of acres with that stuff several times a year here). In a tank that big, you may get tempted to get a pleco to keep it clean - but I highly recommend either a bristlenose catfish/pleco or a bushynose one instead since the other kinds can get destructive. You could also get some Ottos, which clean the plant leaves and are pretty cute. Malaysian Trumpet Snails will also clean the algae off of the walls and plants. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > time. > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > wanting to learn? > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51195	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Karlene. Congrats and best wishes on your 75 gallon tank. Since you're having so many questionable problems with your 20 gallon tank, I would not use any of this water nor any of your filter media from this tank for the new 75 gallon. I would also stay away from PetSmart for obtaining fish. A good local mom & pop pet shop is one of your best sources to get quality fish. If you know the breedrs and IF you know their reputation, then yes this is another good source for fish, but buying fish online unseen from someone you don't know and never heard of is not necessarily a good source for fish. If you could join a local aquarium club, this is often an excellent source for fish. One of the best books for a beginner to get to know the basics of setting up an aquarium is the Baensch Atlas -- Volume One, which can still be found on eBay or AquaBid very reasonably. One copy just recently went for only $7.50 on AquaBid last week. I would highly recommend, either in addition to this or even just as youir first book, Dr. William T. Innes' book entitled "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" -- any volume you can find with a green leatherette cover -- or even the later revised 19th edition yellow-covered book published by Metaframe/Aquariums Incorporated. While this is an older book, and while some of it is obsolete only because there have been more fish introduced to the hobby since its publication, the has ALL the basics you will need for setting up and maintaining an aquarium and then so much more about most of the more common aquareium fishes. Many older hobbyists today used his book for many years and still use it today -- it was known as the bible for the aquarium hobby. Dr. Innes was known as the father of the aquarium hobby. While it's long out of print, again, it can be found on eBay. As for Diane Walstead's method's (and book), while they have there merits and many more advanced hobbyists have had success with them, still, her methods are controversial and are not for everyone. I would not recommend it for the beginner until one has the knowledge to know whether to embrace her methods or not. Using unconventional substrates (such as top soil, etc.) under a layer of gravel -- as she recommends -- can offer many problems when adding new plant or redecorating the aquarium when disturbing the underlayer can result in clouds of dirt throughout the water column. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > time. > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > wanting to learn? > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51196	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Bill, Nitrate does not get "attacked" by ntrifying bacteria, which is the reason why we need to physically remove it with PWC's (partial ewater changes). On average, when cycling a tank, the ammonia will spike in about 10 days after which the beneficial bacteria converting this waste builds up to an adequate population which will consume it all. As this bacteria continues to repopulate itself, and starts converting the ammonia into nitrite, the nitrite will spike in about 10 days after the ammonia spikes with the nitrite-converting bacteria then repopulating itself to proportions after this where they will convert the nitrite into nitrate. As this whole process can take from 4 to 6 weeks, it's unlikely that your tank was fully cycled in 6 days or so, although if you had a very light bioload, and with adequate PWC's, you were fortunate in being able to maintain you Discus and Angels (which should never be mixed) without incident as the remainder of your cycle completed. To suggest to a beginner (or to anyone else) that the cycle takes only 6 or so days to complete is not in their best interest as it's erroneous. There are two very good products on the market in liquid solution (which keeps beneficial aerobic bacteria alive), which contain live nitrifying bacteria, and which will populate one's filter with these beneficial bacteria within 24 hours, albeit, just slightly pricey but well worth it if one want's to stock their tank the following day. They are, "BioSpira" and "Dr Tim's One & Only." Other than that, and you are subjecting any fish added much before the time required for a tank to cycle, to being part of the cycle and being subjected to potentially high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite unless sufficient PWC's are done to prevent it -- or unless the bioload is of such a low percent of the tank's capacity that these levels don't have the opportunity to build up -- while still performing PWC's (which would be seen as being feasible when perhaps 6 quarter-size fish were added to a 6 day old 90 gallon tank). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Karlene... IMHO. the best book you could ever read is Diane Walstad's book: "The > Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" . It is more "back to the basics" approach to > maintaining a tank with minimal interference. Starting a new tank?.. Beg > borrow or steal some filter media from an established tank that you feel > confident is healthy..Or.. grab some substrate from a tank you trust, put it in > a stocking and immerse it in the newly filled tank... Both those mediums are > hot-beds of beneficial bacteria... If you must, add some chemical ammonia... (I > don't go this way so do not know the dosage)... .or.. pick up some cheaper fish, > (barbs).. and add them a few at a time over the course of 2 - 4 days... say till > ya get 6-8 in that 75g. > Monitor your water for these 3-5 days and you'll see initially an ammonia build > up till the bacteria starts working on it... then you'll see a nitrite spike > till that's attacked.. followed by a nitrate spike.. which will once again be > attacked until you're reading 0 on all three tests... The water column is the > least capable of transferring the bacteria colony needed to get your cycle > established or completed. Good luck with the 75. > p.s. I managed to get my 125 cycled and hosting DISCUS and ANGELS in 6 days or > so... > Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Karlene <tarkom@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 2:02:14 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] More Newbie Questions > > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > time. > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > wanting to learn? > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51197	From: Ray	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

While there unfortunately is a Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus being introduced with the im[ports of this species from the Far East, this has little to nothing to do with female Dwarf Gourami's being hard to find. Female Dwarf Gourami's have been hard to find for the past 20 years or more -- or as long as the trade has replied on these Far East fish breeding establishments to supply this fish to the aquarium trade in this country (for reasons of economy). There have been two reasons for the scarcity of female Dwarf Gourami's from these Far east exporters, one being obvious -- as according to the exporters -- and the other being suspect of their motives. This first reason, as so stated by these exporters (and now so convinced by our dealers) is that only the males have the color and so will sell the best, and the other more suspicious reason being that the Asian breeders are reluctant to have the fish being breedable here where they would then reduce the export sales. It would be in the Asian breeders' best interests to restrict the sales of the females (I'm told that they destroy them), in an effort to control this market. The Iridovirus is yet another dangerous disease which, while it's been around now for at least 6 years, is now becoming more prevalent. On average, at least a 1/5 of the imports of Dwarf Gourami's from the Far East have this disease, which can take up to a year before it will kill the fish, even if not much sooner. Reports are that other fishes, such as Bettas and even Mollies, Swordtails and some Cichlids can catch this disease, athough this may be a variant strain they get. Another case to avoid the large chain stores which do much of this importing. In years past, the Dwarf Gourami has been one of the hardiest fish one could buy for their aquarium, so this store keeper is not being very forthright -- or just isn't very knowledgeable -- either one, a reason not to buy there, or at least not believe anything they're saying. If this info was offered by a Petco salesperson, while some may have a bit of aquarium knowledge, it has been generally seen that many don't. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Dwarf Gourami's... there is a disease associated with these guys and even has > the name Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus. It's a scourge of the Dwarf G. community. > Ya ever notice it's hard to find a female DG for sale? The disease has no cure > and is very prevelent in the community . I've got two males and am scared > witless of introducing a store bought fem for their company. Bill in Va. > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:36:30 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? > > > Hello. > > Thanks for commenting. I'm pleased to announce that everybody is still > alive and swimming, at least for the moment. Hopefully that will continue > to be the case. > > As I thought I said initially, there has been nothing "wrong" with the dead > fish except the fact that they're dead - they don't have any white spots, > markings or "fuzz" on them, no slime, no obvious injuries - they look fine, > just dead. The rest of the fish appear healthy and happy and active . . . > oh, except for the dwarf gourami. (Not the blue dwarf.) He's in laying on > his side and apparantly dying - sigh! I wish I knew why. Though, the guy > at the LFS told me they aren't very hardy fish. The two MIA and presumed > dead fish are still MIA and presumed dead, though I can't find their bodies. > > For whomever asked, these fish came from PetCo, and they don't take fish > back. > > Muddling on here. Wish the fish luck! > > ~Karlene > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51198	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Karlene, How will you cycle the new tank? You ask about fish sources. I do not know where you are located, so I'll not be able to give any specific advice, but rather speak in generalities. Mileage may vary. First, I'd not deal with the big box stores. To them fish are nothing but product. They really do not care to offer you good fish, even if they knew what good fish are. Training in the department is minimal at best, and seems to be mostly non-existent, so they are not even good places to go for help. Look for local "mom and pop" type stores. They are still around, though you may need to look for them to find one. These stores have a higher level of knowledge (not perfect, but higher), and should offer you some higher quality fish. Pricing may be higher, but pay it. It is worth it for the service you will get and the knowledge they have to share. If you are a regular customer, they will help you get fish that they normally do not carry and you have an interest in obtaining. Local cub or society. Not so prevalent as they used to be, but there used to be a lot of local groups interested in fish with members from complete novices to the experts. There are specialty groups also, that focus on one type of fish or group of fish. You may need to do some digging around to find a local group. The LFS (local fish shop) you are doing business may be of help, but there seems to be a love/hate relationship between shops that is all too prevalent in this country. Clubs will meet on a regular schedule, and often present programs of interest to the members on various aspects of fishkeeping. These groups can be a source for new fish to you also, either through the auctions they may hold featuring members' fish, or on an individual basis with other club members. Online stores.ad sources. I cannot really speak to buying fish online. I've not done it, though I have bought equipment and books online. Other will need to rate these sources as they have had experience with them. That is not to say I have not received fish through the mails. I did may share of that going back all the way to the '70's, so shipping fish like this is a viable course, and so much more reliable these days with overnight deliveries (and rates to match <g>). You can watch the auction sites, like AquaBid for fish that are being offered, but you would need to be patient, and pay attention to what others have to say about those on the offering side of the equation. Then, there are people like myself, Ray, Spawn, and a few others here who have been in this hobby for many years. We do have our own contacts in the hobby and business. If we are looking for a fish, quite often we can put out the word with someone, and eventually find a source for that fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Karlene Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2011 2:02 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] More Newbie Questions Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this time. I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and wanting to learn? One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in the common tanks and then sold to me. Thanks for your suggestions and insight. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51199	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Bill's right on the title - I always get it wrong! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I highly recommend Diana Walstad's book "The Natural Planted Aquarium" for setting up your tank - she'll get you off to a good start with the substrate and plants. She also has a forum and a lot of her writings are available online. > > I've always been happy with the fish I got on Aquabid. I always got them directly from the breeder. A few pet stores sell on there as well, they sell what looks to be imported fish, I stay away from them as I don't see how theirs are any better than pet stores, except extra cost for shipping. You can also get plants online and I've had only good experiences with that, tho I got some Java Moss from ebay that wasn't - it all died. My current favorite is Sweet Aquatics, which sells on aquabid but also has a website with more selections. > > I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted tanks (I got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay pellets). It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the fish waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. It's so much cheaper than the $30/bag and up plant substrates, and you may need 2-3 bags of those for a large aquarium! In the alternative health world they say that betonite clay binds to toxic heavy metals and is a great chelating agent - I figure in my water it may also play that role, keeping the water safer for the fish. There are agricultural chemicals in my water and I read they bind to clay to become functionally inert (like Round-Up - farmers spray thousands of acres with that stuff several times a year here). > > In a tank that big, you may get tempted to get a pleco to keep it clean - but I highly recommend either a bristlenose catfish/pleco or a bushynose one instead since the other kinds can get destructive. You could also get some Ottos, which clean the plant leaves and are pretty cute. Malaysian Trumpet Snails will also clean the algae off of the walls and plants. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@> wrote: > > > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled > > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. > > > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the > > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > > time. > > > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of > > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding > > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how > > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to > > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at > > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which > > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > > wanting to learn? > > > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder > > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in > > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51200	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

So this morning I thought the Dwarf Gourami was dead, and he's laying on his side in the bottom of the tank. When I went to scoop him out he flicked his tail and moved a couple of inches. Would it be kinder to fish him out and whack his head on something than let him die slowly? ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51201	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

There actually is a scientific basis for this method which is often referred to as the siesta method. Peter Hiscock mentions it in his book, Diana Walstad has more recently mentioned it on her website, and others. The basis though is not so much the light as the CO2. Carbon is an essential nutrient and is preferred by most aquatic plants in the form of carbon dioxide (CO2) rather than bicarbonates. CO2 occurs from the fish and plants during respiration which is continuous, and bacteria in the substrate (and more CO2 comes from the bacteria than fish) and those of us with natural or reasonably low-tech setups know that it is often the nutrient in least supply. Light should always be the limiting factor to plant growth (photosynthesis) to keep algae in check. So the trick is to balance things so light and not CO2 is the limiting factor. As Tom Barr and many others have written, in a low-tech aquarium CO2 is frequently "used up" after a few hours. This varies depending upon the tank, since the fish load (number and type of fish) and bacteria create the CO2. But generally speaking, the CO2 that increases during darkness is basically exhaused after several hours once the light is on. [The intensity of light and availability of other nutrients affect the rate.] At that point, plants slow down or may even stop photosynthesizing. If the light continues, algae is quick to take advantage. The principal behind the siesta approach is to provide a short period of darkness (2-3 hours) mid-day. This allows the CO2 to be replenished. When the lights resume again, the plants photosynthesize. Hiscock mentions a siesta schedule of lights on 5-6 hours, off 2-3, on 5-6 each day. Many have tried this and found that algae does not increase. Botanists say the plants are not affected, because they can "get going" in shorter time once light is present. It is known that plants can only photosynthesize if all requirements are met--adequate light and the 17 nutrients. Plants will photosynthesize to the max, that is, full out if everything is available. Once any factor is lessened, they slow down--the "law of minimum" as the botanist Liebig termed it. Algae grows in light, period. The nutrients in any aquarium will be sufficient, in the presence of light. If the plants are using the light fully, they outcompete the algae. But they can only do this when all necessary nutrients are available. Now, I myself have not tried the siesta approach and would rather not, thinking solely of the fish. There is no scientific evidence I am aware of that shows whether this mini-day/night cycle is in any way harmful to fish. Fish from tropical areas are programmed by nature to receive 10 hours of daylight and 10 hours of total darkness [and in the tropics it is largely complete darkness due to overgrowth]. Upsetting this internal cycle with shorted days/nights to me seems a bit risky, but I am not a biologist. I would however prefer to have some evidence either way before I implement such a system. For now, I simply shorten the daylight period if algae increases. I have the lights on for 9 hours presently. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have to agree with Steve here about it sounding like a crock. Algae is a plant. What affects your other plants will also affect algae growth and vice versa. Of the many things that cause algae to grow are excess amounts of nutrients (more than your other live plants can use), phosphate in the water, old light bulbs that need changing (they lose/change their spectrum over time and most bulbs should be changed every 6 - 12 months), and excess amounts of lighting, be it wattage or the number of hours of light in a day. There are many species of algae and each has its own preferences for conditions, just as other live plants do. > An on/off cycle of lighting such as you describe 3 - 4 times/day is not going to prevent algae growth, you will not "trick" it. Algae grows when the conditions are conducive for it, this happens in any aquatic environment. Instead of seeking a timer (that may or may not exist) to accommodate an erratic lighting schedule (which will make all of your live plants suffer) I would more suggest you find a new source of advice (such as this group) from people who really know what they're talking about. > As a newbie to fish keeping there will be many out there who take advantage of your lack of experience in the hobby, beware of bad information, it runs rampant in pet stores as well as online. Always check and double check the info offered to you to be sure it is accurate and safe for your aquarium, animals, and pocketbook. > > Best of luck to you and welcome to the hobby! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > Laurie, > > > > Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light that determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., not the timing of the on cycles. > > > > However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that would be OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, but it probably would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not the times, of providing light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer to turn on the lights during the time they are away at work, so they can both get enough light for the plants and fish, and enjoy the fish in the evening when it is dark outside. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM > > To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water > > > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > > A way of fooling the algae. > > > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > > > thanks! > > > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > > a cistern. > > > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > > Pablo Picasso > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51202	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Great response on the Fem dwarfs.. Both cases hold water... Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 8:36:37 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? While there unfortunately is a Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus being introduced with the im[ports of this species from the Far East, this has little to nothing to do with female Dwarf Gourami's being hard to find. Female Dwarf Gourami's have been hard to find for the past 20 years or more -- or as long as the trade has replied on these Far East fish breeding establishments to supply this fish to the aquarium trade in this country (for reasons of economy). There have been two reasons for the scarcity of female Dwarf Gourami's from these Far east exporters, one being obvious -- as according to the exporters -- and the other being suspect of their motives. This first reason, as so stated by these exporters (and now so convinced by our dealers) is that only the males have the color and so will sell the best, and the other more suspicious reason being that the Asian breeders are reluctant to have the fish being breedable here where they would then reduce the export sales. It would be in the Asian breeders' best interests to restrict the sales of the females (I'm told that they destroy them), in an effort to control this market. The Iridovirus is yet another dangerous disease which, while it's been around now for at least 6 years, is now becoming more prevalent. On average, at least a 1/5 of the imports of Dwarf Gourami's from the Far East have this disease, which can take up to a year before it will kill the fish, even if not much sooner. Reports are that other fishes, such as Bettas and even Mollies, Swordtails and some Cichlids can catch this disease, athough this may be a variant strain they get. Another case to avoid the large chain stores which do much of this importing. In years past, the Dwarf Gourami has been one of the hardiest fish one could buy for their aquarium, so this store keeper is not being very forthright -- or just isn't very knowledgeable -- either one, a reason not to buy there, or at least not believe anything they're saying. If this info was offered by a Petco salesperson, while some may have a bit of aquarium knowledge, it has been generally seen that many don't. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Dwarf Gourami's... there is a disease associated with these guys and even has > the name Dwarf Gourami Iridovirus. It's a scourge of the Dwarf G. community. > Ya ever notice it's hard to find a female DG for sale? The disease has no >cure > > and is very prevelent in the community . I've got two males and am scared > witless of introducing a store bought fem for their company. Bill in Va. > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:36:30 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? > > > Hello. > > Thanks for commenting. I'm pleased to announce that everybody is still > alive and swimming, at least for the moment. Hopefully that will continue > to be the case. > > As I thought I said initially, there has been nothing "wrong" with the dead > fish except the fact that they're dead - they don't have any white spots, > markings or "fuzz" on them, no slime, no obvious injuries - they look fine, > just dead. The rest of the fish appear healthy and happy and active . . . > oh, except for the dwarf gourami. (Not the blue dwarf.) He's in laying on > his side and apparantly dying - sigh! I wish I knew why. Though, the guy > at the LFS told me they aren't very hardy fish. The two MIA and presumed > dead fish are still MIA and presumed dead, though I can't find their bodies. > > For whomever asked, these fish came from PetCo, and they don't take fish > back. > > Muddling on here. Wish the fish luck! > > ~Karlene > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51203	From: Al Keep	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

i hada put my blue dwarf g out of his pain.... he wasnt gettin any better...i was bummed as he was my first fish...he did well for about 2 months then had all the signs of the dwarf g disease rhat has no cure. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > So this morning I thought the Dwarf Gourami was dead, and he's laying on his side in the bottom of the tank. When I went to scoop him out he flicked his tail and moved a couple of inches. Would it be kinder to fish him out and whack his head on something than let him die slowly? > > ~Karlene > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51204	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Ray if you do a Walstad setup with soil/clay and lots of plants, it's actually possible to have the tank cycled in a very short time. I did this with most of my tanks, the only one that had a little problems was my 125 gallon tank, but it didn't kill any fish, I just had to watch the nutrients that the soil was leaching out, and I didn't add enough plants when I first set it up. Amber On 4/30/2011 3:54 AM, Ray wrote: > > Bill, > > Nitrate does not get "attacked" by ntrifying bacteria, which is the > reason why we need to physically remove it with PWC's (partial ewater > changes). On average, when cycling a tank, the ammonia will spike in > about 10 days after which the beneficial bacteria converting this > waste builds up to an adequate population which will consume it all. > As this bacteria continues to repopulate itself, and starts converting > the ammonia into nitrite, the nitrite will spike in about 10 days > after the ammonia spikes with the nitrite-converting bacteria then > repopulating itself to proportions after this where they will convert > the nitrite into nitrate. > > As this whole process can take from 4 to 6 weeks, it's unlikely that > your tank was fully cycled in 6 days or so, although if you had a very > light bioload, and with adequate PWC's, you were fortunate in being > able to maintain you Discus and Angels (which should never be mixed) > without incident as the remainder of your cycle completed. To suggest > to a beginner (or to anyone else) that the cycle takes only 6 or so > days to complete is not in their best interest as it's erroneous. > There are two very good products on the market in liquid solution > (which keeps beneficial aerobic bacteria alive), which contain live > nitrifying bacteria, and which will populate one's filter with these > beneficial bacteria within 24 hours, albeit, just slightly pricey but > well worth it if one want's to stock their tank the following day. > They are, "BioSpira" and "Dr Tim's One & Only." Other than that, and > you are subjecting any fish added much before the time required for a > tank to cycle, to being part of the cycle and being subjected to > potentially high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite unless sufficient > PWC's are done to prevent it -- or unless the bioload is of such a low > percent of the tank's capacity that these levels don't have the > opportunity to build up -- while still performing PWC's (which would > be seen as being feasible when perhaps 6 quarter-size fish were added > to a 6 day old 90 gallon tank). > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Karlene... IMHO. the best book you could ever read is Diane > Walstad's book: "The > > Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" . It is more "back to the basics" > approach to > > maintaining a tank with minimal interference. Starting a new tank?.. > Beg > > borrow or steal some filter media from an established tank that you > feel > > confident is healthy..Or.. grab some substrate from a tank you > trust, put it in > > a stocking and immerse it in the newly filled tank... Both those > mediums are > > hot-beds of beneficial bacteria... If you must, add some chemical > ammonia... (I > > don't go this way so do not know the dosage)... .or.. pick up some > cheaper fish, > > (barbs).. and add them a few at a time over the course of 2 - 4 > days... say till > > ya get 6-8 in that 75g. > > Monitor your water for these 3-5 days and you'll see initially an > ammonia build > > up till the bacteria starts working on it... then you'll see a > nitrite spike > > till that's attacked.. followed by a nitrate spike.. which will once > again be > > attacked until you're reading 0 on all three tests... The water > column is the > > least capable of transferring the bacteria colony needed to get your > cycle > > established or completed. Good luck with the 75. > > p.s. I managed to get my 125 cycled and hosting DISCUS and ANGELS in > 6 days or > > so... > > Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Karlene <tarkom@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 2:02:14 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] More Newbie Questions > > > > > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm > thrilled > > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much > larger tank. > > > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, > put the > > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > > time. > > > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a > lot of > > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to > start adding > > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out > with, how > > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't > want to > > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online > and at > > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, > which > > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > > wanting to learn? > > > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the > breeder > > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, > dumped in > > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51205	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

It hurts to lose any fish... sorry for your troubles... I've not had to do that "dirty deed" but a friend of mine scoops them out and puts them in a ziplock then the freezer.....uggg.... ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:15:48 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? i hada put my blue dwarf g out of his pain.... he wasnt gettin any better...i was bummed as he was my first fish...he did well for about 2 months then had all the signs of the dwarf g disease rhat has no cure. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > So this morning I thought the Dwarf Gourami was dead, and he's laying on his >side in the bottom of the tank. When I went to scoop him out he flicked his tail >and moved a couple of inches. Would it be kinder to fish him out and whack his >head on something than let him die slowly? > > > ~Karlene > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51206	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

My bad.. I'd never suggest someone new to the hobby trying to fast cycle a tank. If you have access to the substrate or filter media from a well established tank it is possible to do that balancing act of ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, plants(lots) and fish and get your tank up and running well short of 4 - 6 weeks. I do a water check EVERY day looking for anomalies. Maybe I've just been very lucky. As far as the angels and discus? The issue as I understand it is competition for food. My discus seem to be as aggressive at feeding time (3 times daily) as the angel. I feed lightly and often. But.. the mix is temporary. Monday of this week, I inherited almost 300 gallons of tanks and fish. One tank is going to be the angel tank (75g) leaving the 125g to be the discus tank. The 75 currently houses 2 separated oscars in the 5 inch range that are looking for an adoption home. My grow-out tank for a dozen blue scorpion discus is bare bottom and does get a 25-30% w/c daily. They get fed even more often to bring them to size with a mix of foods. In less than a month they've gone from 1.5 inch to approaching 2.5 inch... Oops.. a mistatement on the nitrates.. my plants tend to take care of that.. plus some snails are thrown into the mix to assist in cleanup. Luckily my tap water is ph 7.0 or less and somewhat soft. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 7:54:43 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Bill, Nitrate does not get "attacked" by ntrifying bacteria, which is the reason why we need to physically remove it with PWC's (partial ewater changes). On average, when cycling a tank, the ammonia will spike in about 10 days after which the beneficial bacteria converting this waste builds up to an adequate population which will consume it all. As this bacteria continues to repopulate itself, and starts converting the ammonia into nitrite, the nitrite will spike in about 10 days after the ammonia spikes with the nitrite-converting bacteria then repopulating itself to proportions after this where they will convert the nitrite into nitrate. As this whole process can take from 4 to 6 weeks, it's unlikely that your tank was fully cycled in 6 days or so, although if you had a very light bioload, and with adequate PWC's, you were fortunate in being able to maintain you Discus and Angels (which should never be mixed) without incident as the remainder of your cycle completed. To suggest to a beginner (or to anyone else) that the cycle takes only 6 or so days to complete is not in their best interest as it's erroneous. There are two very good products on the market in liquid solution (which keeps beneficial aerobic bacteria alive), which contain live nitrifying bacteria, and which will populate one's filter with these beneficial bacteria within 24 hours, albeit, just slightly pricey but well worth it if one want's to stock their tank the following day. They are, "BioSpira" and "Dr Tim's One & Only." Other than that, and you are subjecting any fish added much before the time required for a tank to cycle, to being part of the cycle and being subjected to potentially high levels of ammonia and/or nitrite unless sufficient PWC's are done to prevent it -- or unless the bioload is of such a low percent of the tank's capacity that these levels don't have the opportunity to build up -- while still performing PWC's (which would be seen as being feasible when perhaps 6 quarter-size fish were added to a 6 day old 90 gallon tank). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Karlene... IMHO. the best book you could ever read is Diane Walstad's book: >"The > > Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" . It is more "back to the basics" approach to > > maintaining a tank with minimal interference. Starting a new tank?.. Beg > borrow or steal some filter media from an established tank that you feel > confident is healthy..Or.. grab some substrate from a tank you trust, put it in > > a stocking and immerse it in the newly filled tank... Both those mediums are > hot-beds of beneficial bacteria... If you must, add some chemical ammonia... (I > > don't go this way so do not know the dosage)... .or.. pick up some cheaper >fish, > > (barbs).. and add them a few at a time over the course of 2 - 4 days... say >till > > ya get 6-8 in that 75g. > Monitor your water for these 3-5 days and you'll see initially an ammonia build > > up till the bacteria starts working on it... then you'll see a nitrite spike > till that's attacked.. followed by a nitrate spike.. which will once again be > attacked until you're reading 0 on all three tests... The water column is the > least capable of transferring the bacteria colony needed to get your cycle > established or completed. Good luck with the 75. > p.s. I managed to get my 125 cycled and hosting DISCUS and ANGELS in 6 days >or > > so... > Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Karlene <tarkom@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 2:02:14 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] More Newbie Questions > > > Well, unless something unexpected happens, I'll have a 75 gallon tank > starting tomorrow, with a Fluval 404 filtration system. Yay! I'm thrilled > that my hubby is enjoying the fish enough to let me get a much larger tank. > > So, I know with the 20 gallon I did everything wrong. I set it up, put the > water in, ran it overnight and then bunged in a bunch of fish. Sadly, > several fish suffered due to my ineptitude. I don't want to do that this > time. > > I've had fish in the past, but never a tank so large, and I have a lot of > questions about the proper way to get a tank set up and when to start adding > fish, if I should use some water from my current tank to start out with, how > to plant the tank so it's not "too much" and so much more. I don't want to > wear all of your fingers, or your patience, thin. I've looked online and at > various books, but it's so hard to know which information has value, which > books are worth reading, etc. So, that will be my question . . . which > websites or books would you recommend for someone setting up a tank and > wanting to learn? > > One other question - are on-line sources a better place to purchase fish > that the local pet store? I'm thinking if they go straight from the breeder > to my home it might be healthier than being trucked to pet stores, dumped in > the common tanks and then sold to me. > > Thanks for your suggestions and insight. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51207	From: Bill	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water

That siesta makes perfect sense!... ________________________________ From: amphibian_ca <bhosking@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 12:18:58 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water There actually is a scientific basis for this method which is often referred to as the siesta method. Peter Hiscock mentions it in his book, Diana Walstad has more recently mentioned it on her website, and others. The basis though is not so much the light as the CO2. Carbon is an essential nutrient and is preferred by most aquatic plants in the form of carbon dioxide (CO2) rather than bicarbonates. CO2 occurs from the fish and plants during respiration which is continuous, and bacteria in the substrate (and more CO2 comes from the bacteria than fish) and those of us with natural or reasonably low-tech setups know that it is often the nutrient in least supply. Light should always be the limiting factor to plant growth (photosynthesis) to keep algae in check. So the trick is to balance things so light and not CO2 is the limiting factor. As Tom Barr and many others have written, in a low-tech aquarium CO2 is frequently "used up" after a few hours. This varies depending upon the tank, since the fish load (number and type of fish) and bacteria create the CO2. But generally speaking, the CO2 that increases during darkness is basically exhaused after several hours once the light is on. [The intensity of light and availability of other nutrients affect the rate.] At that point, plants slow down or may even stop photosynthesizing. If the light continues, algae is quick to take advantage. The principal behind the siesta approach is to provide a short period of darkness (2-3 hours) mid-day. This allows the CO2 to be replenished. When the lights resume again, the plants photosynthesize. Hiscock mentions a siesta schedule of lights on 5-6 hours, off 2-3, on 5-6 each day. Many have tried this and found that algae does not increase. Botanists say the plants are not affected, because they can "get going" in shorter time once light is present. It is known that plants can only photosynthesize if all requirements are met--adequate light and the 17 nutrients. Plants will photosynthesize to the max, that is, full out if everything is available. Once any factor is lessened, they slow down--the "law of minimum" as the botanist Liebig termed it. Algae grows in light, period. The nutrients in any aquarium will be sufficient, in the presence of light. If the plants are using the light fully, they outcompete the algae. But they can only do this when all necessary nutrients are available. Now, I myself have not tried the siesta approach and would rather not, thinking solely of the fish. There is no scientific evidence I am aware of that shows whether this mini-day/night cycle is in any way harmful to fish. Fish from tropical areas are programmed by nature to receive 10 hours of daylight and 10 hours of total darkness [and in the tropics it is largely complete darkness due to overgrowth]. Upsetting this internal cycle with shorted days/nights to me seems a bit risky, but I am not a biologist. I would however prefer to have some evidence either way before I implement such a system. For now, I simply shorten the daylight period if algae increases. I have the lights on for 9 hours presently. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I have to agree with Steve here about it sounding like a crock. Algae is a >plant. What affects your other plants will also affect algae growth and vice >versa. Of the many things that cause algae to grow are excess amounts of >nutrients (more than your other live plants can use), phosphate in the water, >old light bulbs that need changing (they lose/change their spectrum over time >and most bulbs should be changed every 6 - 12 months), and excess amounts of >lighting, be it wattage or the number of hours of light in a day. There are >many species of algae and each has its own preferences for conditions, just as >other live plants do. > > An on/off cycle of lighting such as you describe 3 - 4 times/day is not going >to prevent algae growth, you will not "trick" it. Algae grows when the >conditions are conducive for it, this happens in any aquatic environment. >Instead of seeking a timer (that may or may not exist) to accommodate an erratic >lighting schedule (which will make all of your live plants suffer) I would more >suggest you find a new source of advice (such as this group) from people who >really know what they're talking about. > As a newbie to fish keeping there will be many out there who take advantage of >your lack of experience in the hobby, beware of bad information, it runs rampant >in pet stores as well as online. Always check and double check the info offered >to you to be sure it is accurate and safe for your aquarium, animals, and >pocketbook. > > Best of luck to you and welcome to the hobby! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > Laurie, > > > > Boy, that sounds like a crock if you ask me. It is the total light that >determines growth of plants (algae), along with nutrients, etc., not the timing >of the on cycles. > > > > However, if you wish to have a multiple light cycle, I believe that would be >OK, so long as you are not giving too much light to the tank, but it probably >would be best to follow the wisdom of nature, if not the times, of providing >light to your aquarium. Most will use a timer to turn on the lights during the >time they are away at work, so they can both get enough light for the plants and >fish, and enjoy the fish in the evening when it is dark outside. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >Behalf Of laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:22 PM > > To: raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] RE: [RAS Group] Planted tank with very soft water > > > > I am hoping to set up a small (20 long) planted tank soon, and got > > CFLs on eBay, real powerful ones, but am still working on one problem. > > > > Someone advised me to set the timer for the lights to have the lights > > on 3 or 4 hours and off one, and do two or three cycles like this, > > rather than leaving them on for the day. I was told this light > > cycling would not harm the plants, but would discourage algae growth. > > A way of fooling the algae. > > > > So, does anyone know where to find a timer that will accept as many as > > 3 on & off cycles, or do you know a way to rig an ordinary cheap timer > > to go on & off multiple times in 24 hours?? > > > > thanks! > > > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > > a cistern. > > > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > > Pablo Picasso > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51208	From: haecklers	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

I tried soil tanks and with the cory cats they'd dig up the soil from under the sand and cloud the water terribly. Other digging fish like my pearl gourami or convicts (they were supposed to be temporary occupants but they went and had babies on me!) will dig down to the bottom of the tank and also disturb a soil layer, clouding the water. I agree, tho, using the Walstad method results in a very fast, "light" cycle that many fish can survive. If you are going to break down your 20 completely you can run the filter you're using in that in the new tank and the bacteria in that will help speed cycle it. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ray if you do a Walstad setup with soil/clay and lots of plants, it's > actually possible to have the tank cycled in a very short time. I did > this with most of my tanks, the only one that had a little problems was > my 125 gallon tank, but it didn't kill any fish, I just had to watch the > nutrients that the soil was leaching out, and I didn't add enough plants > when I first set it up. > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51209	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 4/30/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

Hi Karlene, I would suggest the kindest & least violent method to put a fish to sleep painlessly & quietly is to use clove oil-you can get it from most pharmacies or chemists-they sell it for toothache relief. Take a half bucket of tank water then take a pint from this. Mix into the pint 20 drops of clove oil & stir or shake well to completely mix it up. Then place your fish into the bucket & gradually add the mixed pint back. He will be asleep in a few minutes but leave him in for at least half an hour. Always check there is no mouth or gill movement before removing him. John*<o)))< *ps-don't tell the chemist what the clove oil is really for or he may not sell it to you! On 30 April 2011 19:24, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > It hurts to lose any fish... sorry for your troubles... I've not had to do > that > "dirty deed" but a friend of mine scoops them out and puts them in a > ziplock > then the freezer.....uggg.... > > ________________________________ > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:15:48 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? > > i hada put my blue dwarf g out of his pain.... he wasnt gettin any > better...i > was bummed as he was my first fish...he did well for about 2 months then > had all > the signs of the dwarf g disease rhat has no cure. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > > > So this morning I thought the Dwarf Gourami was dead, and he's laying on > his > >side in the bottom of the tank. When I went to scoop him out he flicked > his tail > >and moved a couple of inches. Would it be kinder to fish him out and whack > his > >head on something than let him die slowly? > > > > > > ~Karlene > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51210	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: Any suggestions?

One quick warning about the clove oil. Whatever container you use it in should not be used for fish afterwards. Clove oil can be near impossible to completely remove, the odor is extremely potent, and the residue it leaves behind will maintain a strong odor for a long time, as well as affect any fish coming into contact with it. If you can detect any odor at all then rest assured it will affect a fish. Clove oil is one of the few anesthetics we use for fish surgery, which can be a touchy thing unless you have experience with it. Different fish respond differently to it, some need more, some need less, and any long term exposure will surely kill the fish... however, if being used to euthanize a fish the longer you leave the fish in it the better. If you are not absolutely sure the fish has expired there is a chance it can wake back up, which can cause a great deal of suffering in a fish that is intended to be euthanized. Use with caution and be sure it does not in any way come into contact with your healthy fish, healthy tanks, or any supplies that may be used with healthy fish/tanks. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Karlene, > > I would suggest the kindest & least violent method to put a fish to sleep > painlessly & quietly is to use clove oil-you can get it from most pharmacies > or chemists-they sell it for toothache relief. > > Take a half bucket of tank water then take a pint from this. Mix into the > pint 20 drops of clove oil & stir or shake well to completely mix it up. > Then place your fish into the bucket & gradually add the mixed pint back. He > will be asleep in a few minutes but leave him in for at least half an hour. > Always check there is no mouth or gill movement before removing him. > > John*<o)))< > > *ps-don't tell the chemist what the clove oil is really for or he may not > sell it to you! > > > > On 30 April 2011 19:24, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > It hurts to lose any fish... sorry for your troubles... I've not had to do > > that > > "dirty deed" but a friend of mine scoops them out and puts them in a > > ziplock > > then the freezer.....uggg.... > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, April 30, 2011 1:15:48 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Any suggestions? > > > > i hada put my blue dwarf g out of his pain.... he wasnt gettin any > > better...i > > was bummed as he was my first fish...he did well for about 2 months then > > had all > > the signs of the dwarf g disease rhat has no cure. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@> wrote: > > > > > > So this morning I thought the Dwarf Gourami was dead, and he's laying on > > his > > >side in the bottom of the tank. When I went to scoop him out he flicked > > his tail > > >and moved a couple of inches. Would it be kinder to fish him out and whack > > his > > >head on something than let him die slowly? > > > > > > > > > ~Karlene > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51211	From: Karlene	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room now! Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave any harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half of one of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that looks like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I attempt to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here quickly enough, I think! Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea at all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just stick the roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel into the new one. As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't always look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing in the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody seems to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is pregnant. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51212	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Was this a freshwater or salt water tank before you bought it? If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water perhaps only rinsing the gravel a bit if it's really dirty, hopefully the filter or gravel wasn't dry for too long or the beneficial bacteria would have probably all died by now, and you will have to start all over again. Bleach should really only be used in drastic measures, as you need to make sure you rinse everything VERY well after using bleach or it will easily kill all your fish. Vinegar is fine to use and is much less likely to cause any fish problems, I can't remember how much to use off the top of my head right now, perhaps someone else will chime in. You can get filter media or gravel from an already cycled tank (if you plant to clean this one really well before adding any fish), try at a local (mom and pop) fish store, they will often sell you some very cheap (or even just give you some). It just takes a little bit to get your beneficial bacteria going, just make sure not to stock the tank very heavily at first. Only add a few fish, then wait at least a few days before you add a few more (maybe even a week before adding any more). Slower is better. Amber On 5/1/2011 1:47 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room now! > Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. > > What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the > interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave any > harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? > > Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it > from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half > of one > of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that > looks > like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with > whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I attempt > to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also > showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much > cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad > thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here > quickly enough, I think! > > Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea at > all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me > puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I > added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just > stick the > roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't > looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel > into the > new one. > > As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and > one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't > always > look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking > ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. > > Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication > year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing in > the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those > volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? > > Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody > seems > to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is > pregnant. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51213	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Karlene, There are really two ways to properly cycle the tank, plus a short cut or two for one of the ways to help you out. The latest and greatest method for basically an instant cycle is to use Dr. Tim's product, which contains all the bacteria you need for an "instant" cycle. His product, however, can be hard to get, and does require some specific handling to be viable for you, but it is probably worth looking into if you want to make an immediate move to the new tank. The best way to cycle a new tank is with what is known as a fishless cycle. I'll attempt to explain this briefly to you, and you can ask questions on points you do not understand. The period of time this will take is generally 4-8 weeks, the same as establishing a cycle with fish in the tank. However, unlike using fish, there are no fish, and thus no harm to any animals doing it this way. As an added bonus, you can slowly decorate your tank while doing this, trying out different arrangements of substrate, rock, plants, bubble up ummm, shall we say "features" <g>, etc. while the tank is cycling so you can have some fun with it, that you may not otherwise were there fish in the tank. You can even plant the tank during this time, if you wish, giving the plants some time to establish themselves prior to the addition of fish. You'll need a good master test kit, most here like the API kits, mainly because they are inexpensive, I like the Kordon AquaTru kits, mainly for the vials and the use of powdered reagents. The vials let you compare the color through actual tank water, which may be discolored itself allowing you a more accurate reading of the color. You will need some plain household ammonia. That means no additives, like detergents, perfumes and whatever else they are thinking adding to ammonia will make it more salable. If you cannot find it in the supermarket, go to an ACE hardware store, since I hear they have plain ammonia available there. After you fill the tank with water, you may take two shortcuts that may help you cycle the tank faster. First, mix in some substrate from another tank that has already cycled. This will help give your tank a jump start on the bacteria growth. You can also add an established sponge filter, or pad to the tank, again to give you a jumpstart on your bacteria. Slowly add some ammonia, a few drops at a time until you reach a tested level of 5.0 on your ammonia test kit. You will need to retest the ammonia level at approximately the same time each day so that you can maintain the 5.0 level on a daily basis until the end of the cycle. For a while, you may have a reading of 5.0 without doing anything. Then, one day, you'll notice that the level has gone down. Add enough ammonia to reach the 5.0 level again for the day. After a few days of this adding, start measuring for nitrite. You should see the level building up as the ammonia is going down. When you start noticing that the nitrites are dropping also, you are almost done, as you are now building the population of bacteria necessary handle the nitrite portion of the cycle. When you reach the time that all the ammonia is consumed each day, and the nitrite level is consistently at 0, congratulations, your tank is cycled. You can add the full complement of fish to the tank at once with no problems, though most people still build the population slowly. If you have added plants during this cycle, they may well speed up the cycle depending on how fast they become established. Plants like nitrogen also and will consume it right from the water column, helping you with the cycling of the tank. Plants will also help control the end state, so far as aquariums go, which is the production of nitrate. There is no good way to disperse of nitrates in the aquarium other than with plants and/or water changes. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Karlene Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room now! Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave any harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half of one of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that looks like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I attempt to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here quickly enough, I think! Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea at all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just stick the roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel into the new one. As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't always look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing in the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody seems to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is pregnant. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51214	From: Bill	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Steve.. only one thing to add to an excellent post. The introduction of plants at the get-go will assist in the usage of ammonia.. Not generally accepted is that plants do consume or what=ever, ammonia.. .Bill ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 7:31:50 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Karlene, There are really two ways to properly cycle the tank, plus a short cut or two for one of the ways to help you out. The latest and greatest method for basically an instant cycle is to use Dr. Tim's product, which contains all the bacteria you need for an "instant" cycle. His product, however, can be hard to get, and does require some specific handling to be viable for you, but it is probably worth looking into if you want to make an immediate move to the new tank. The best way to cycle a new tank is with what is known as a fishless cycle. I'll attempt to explain this briefly to you, and you can ask questions on points you do not understand. The period of time this will take is generally 4-8 weeks, the same as establishing a cycle with fish in the tank. However, unlike using fish, there are no fish, and thus no harm to any animals doing it this way. As an added bonus, you can slowly decorate your tank while doing this, trying out different arrangements of substrate, rock, plants, bubble up ummm, shall we say "features" <g>, etc. while the tank is cycling so you can have some fun with it, that you may not otherwise were there fish in the tank. You can even plant the tank during this time, if you wish, giving the plants some time to establish themselves prior to the addition of fish. You'll need a good master test kit, most here like the API kits, mainly because they are inexpensive, I like the Kordon AquaTru kits, mainly for the vials and the use of powdered reagents. The vials let you compare the color through actual tank water, which may be discolored itself allowing you a more accurate reading of the color. You will need some plain household ammonia. That means no additives, like detergents, perfumes and whatever else they are thinking adding to ammonia will make it more salable. If you cannot find it in the supermarket, go to an ACE hardware store, since I hear they have plain ammonia available there. After you fill the tank with water, you may take two shortcuts that may help you cycle the tank faster. First, mix in some substrate from another tank that has already cycled. This will help give your tank a jump start on the bacteria growth. You can also add an established sponge filter, or pad to the tank, again to give you a jumpstart on your bacteria. Slowly add some ammonia, a few drops at a time until you reach a tested level of 5.0 on your ammonia test kit. You will need to retest the ammonia level at approximately the same time each day so that you can maintain the 5.0 level on a daily basis until the end of the cycle. For a while, you may have a reading of 5.0 without doing anything. Then, one day, you'll notice that the level has gone down. Add enough ammonia to reach the 5.0 level again for the day. After a few days of this adding, start measuring for nitrite. You should see the level building up as the ammonia is going down. When you start noticing that the nitrites are dropping also, you are almost done, as you are now building the population of bacteria necessary handle the nitrite portion of the cycle. When you reach the time that all the ammonia is consumed each day, and the nitrite level is consistently at 0, congratulations, your tank is cycled. You can add the full complement of fish to the tank at once with no problems, though most people still build the population slowly. If you have added plants during this cycle, they may well speed up the cycle depending on how fast they become established. Plants like nitrogen also and will consume it right from the water column, helping you with the cycling of the tank. Plants will also help control the end state, so far as aquariums go, which is the production of nitrate. There is no good way to disperse of nitrates in the aquarium other than with plants and/or water changes. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Karlene Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:48 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room now! Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave any harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half of one of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that looks like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I attempt to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here quickly enough, I think! Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea at all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just stick the roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel into the new one. As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't always look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing in the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody seems to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is pregnant. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51215	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Amber, If I buy a used tank, or otherwise come into possession of one, all substrate goes goodbye. Tank is cleaned with bleach and rock salt. Vinegar is used for hard water stains, should they be present. Tank is allowed to thoroughly dry. Accessories are gone through, cleaned, repaired or tossed as necessary. Any old filter media is disposed of in favor of new. Tank is slowly filled in stages over several days and checked for leaks. Emptied again then placed in position for use, or stored for future use. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Was this a freshwater or salt water tank before you bought it? If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water perhaps only rinsing the gravel a bit if it's really dirty, hopefully the filter or gravel wasn't dry for too long or the beneficial bacteria would have probably all died by now, and you will have to start all over again. Bleach should really only be used in drastic measures, as you need to make sure you rinse everything VERY well after using bleach or it will easily kill all your fish. Vinegar is fine to use and is much less likely to cause any fish problems, I can't remember how much to use off the top of my head right now, perhaps someone else will chime in. You can get filter media or gravel from an already cycled tank (if you plant to clean this one really well before adding any fish), try at a local (mom and pop) fish store, they will often sell you some very cheap (or even just give you some). It just takes a little bit to get your beneficial bacteria going, just make sure not to stock the tank very heavily at first. Only add a few fish, then wait at least a few days before you add a few more (maybe even a week before adding any more). Slower is better. Amber On 5/1/2011 1:47 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room now! > Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. > > What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the > interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave any > harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? > > Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it > from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half > of one > of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that > looks > like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with > whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I attempt > to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also > showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much > cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad > thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here > quickly enough, I think! > > Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea at > all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me > puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I > added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just > stick the > roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't > looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel > into the > new one. > > As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and > one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't > always > look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking > ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. > > Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication > year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing in > the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those > volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? > > Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody > seems > to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is > pregnant. > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51216	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: The 10 most under-rated community fish

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3858&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_21_2011&utm_term=The_10_most_under-rated_community_fish&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/4y87nmp The 10 most under-rated community fish Nathan Hill pays homage to some of those fish that have good reason to be present in the community tanks of all. Kuhli loaches, Pangio sp. There are a few species to choose from, but most go under the standard moniker of kuhlii (or coolie) loaches. In small numbers this is not a fish you'll see frequently, but crank up the amount and you'll often see one flitting from place to place, especially when their culinary favourite - the bloodworm - is on offer. Sometimes the real treat fish are the ones that you have to work for, and aren't in your face all of the time. Green swordtails, Xiphophorus helleri We've all seen the myriad colour forms of swordtail, but nothing will ever compare to the true wild markings of these fabulous fish. As well as having a subtle, less garish beauty, they are actually sturdier than their manipulated counterparts, showing better immunity to illnesses and better resistance to adverse water conditions, should that problem ever arise. Nannostomus pencilfish Tetra-sized, peaceable and in the case of N. beckfordi sporting bright hues of red, these fish will be the last to cause trouble in a community. Sometimes shy, they do well in small to medium shoals, and are an excellent addition for anyone who leans towards the plant heavy side of community aquaria. Keeps an eye out for the more expensive but breathtaking N. espei if you can. Pic shows N. rubrocaudatus, courtesy of Rare Aquatics, Cheshire. Sparkling gourami, Trichopsis pumilis Rivalling the larger Trichogaster gouramis for attractive markings, this humble and small anabantid will find a home in any peaceful community. Sadly, these fish are often sold from tanks with little décor or planting, and refuse to develop their full colours. They remain a prize for anyone willing to take a gamble. Get them into a quiet tank with a few plants about and watch the colours bloom. Picture by George Farmer. Tiger barbs, Puntius tetrazona I'm not joking here, the Tiger barb can be an excellent fish in the community. Myths and rumours abound about nipping behaviour but this is a fault of the keeper, not the fish. Kept in large enough groups, these fish will be gregarious amongst themselves, but this boisterous behaviour will not spill over to other tankmates. Don't mess about with numbers and opt for a shoal of a good 12 or more for a well-behaved and active community fish. Pygmy corydoras, C. pygmaeus and C. hastatus All too often I'll see a token three corys in an aquarium, usually bronze or peppered variants. Why not go for something a little smaller and shore up the numbers? These little cats go great in some of the dinkier communities that are appearing, doing much the same job on a smaller scale. In larger numbers the fish will be happier, and these little chaps definitely seem to shoal more and remain in groups than some of their larger counterparts. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51217	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Barreleye

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3857&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_21_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Barreleye&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3j7ro82 [We had a short discussion on this particular fish here some time ago, but it still is interesting, and we have new people here who may have entirely missed out on the chat we had. scs] Weird fish of the week: Barreleye The Barreleye (Macropinna microstoma) is a truly bizarre-looking fish with a transparent head and amazing eyes. The common name comes from the fishes' barrel-shaped, tubular eyes which are very good at collecting light to enable it to see better in the dark ocean waters in which it lives. The eyes were believed to be fixed, giving the Barreleye a very narrow "tunnel-vision" field of view covering only objects above the fish's head. However, research by Bruce Robinson and Kim Reisenbichler from the Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute provided evidence to suggest that the fish can rotate their eyes within a transparent shield which covers their head, allowing them to look upwards at potential prey above, or point their eyes forward to see what is ahead. The fluid-filled shield gives the appearance that the fish has a see-through head. Check out the video: The Barreleye normally hangs nearly motionless in the water, with the help of its large flat fins, at a depth of about 600-800m/2,000-2,600 ft, its eyes directed upward. In the low light conditions it is assumed the fish detects prey such as small fish and jellyfish by their silhouette. The green pigments in its eyes may filter out sunlight coming directly from the sea surface, helping it spot the bioluminescent glow of jellyfish or other animals directly overhead. It's also thought that Barreleyes steal the food of siphonophores (colonial jellies). These siphonophores grow to over 10m/33 ft and are equipped with thousands of stinging tentacles, which capture copepods and other small animals. The Barreleyes are thought to move among the tentacles, picking off captured organisms. The transparent shield would help to protect the fish's eyes from the siphonophore's stinging cells. Macropinna microstoma has been known to science since 1939, but was not photographed alive until a few years ago. Until then scientists had no idea that the fish had a transparent dome, presumably because the fragile structure had always been destroyed when the fish was brought up from the depths in fishing nets. [Video available at link. scs] \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51218	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Hi Karlene, Some suggestions regarding the filter substrate. Unless you want to remove medications or toxins from your water then you really don't need to have charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space that you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a large colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. Extremely cheap & virtually indestructible plus they hold a lot of good bugs. For the water polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester foam/floss. This is the same material you would use for stuffing soft toys or pillows & again is readily available from market stalls & cost next to nothing, just cut to size & replace at each filter clean. John*<o)))< * On 2 May 2011 02:07, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > Amber, > > If I buy a used tank, or otherwise come into possession of one, all > substrate goes goodbye. Tank is cleaned with bleach and rock salt. Vinegar > is used for hard water stains, should they be present. Tank is allowed to > thoroughly dry. Accessories are gone through, cleaned, repaired or tossed > as > necessary. Any old filter media is disposed of in favor of new. Tank is > slowly filled in stages over several days and checked for leaks. Emptied > again then placed in position for use, or stored for future use. > > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:55 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions > > Was this a freshwater or salt water tank before you bought it? > If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you > bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. > If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and > filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water perhaps only > rinsing the gravel a bit if it's really dirty, hopefully the filter or > gravel wasn't dry for too long or the beneficial bacteria would have > probably all died by now, and you will have to start all over again. > > Bleach should really only be used in drastic measures, as you need to > make sure you rinse everything VERY well after using bleach or it will > easily kill all your fish. Vinegar is fine to use and is much less > likely to cause any fish problems, I can't remember how much to use off > the top of my head right now, perhaps someone else will chime in. > You can get filter media or gravel from an already cycled tank (if you > plant to clean this one really well before adding any fish), try at a > local (mom and pop) fish store, they will often sell you some very cheap > (or even just give you some). It just takes a little bit to get your > beneficial bacteria going, just make sure not to stock the tank very > heavily at first. Only add a few fish, then wait at least a few days > before you add a few more (maybe even a week before adding any more). > Slower is better. > > Amber > > On 5/1/2011 1:47 PM, Karlene wrote: > > > > Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room > now! > > Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. > > > > What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the > > interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave > any > > harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? > > > > Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it > > from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half > > of one > > of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that > > looks > > like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with > > whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I > attempt > > to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also > > showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much > > cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad > > thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here > > quickly enough, I think! > > > > Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea > at > > all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me > > puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I > > added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just > > stick the > > roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't > > looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel > > into the > > new one. > > > > As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and > > one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't > > always > > look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking > > ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. > > > > Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication > > year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing > in > > the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those > > volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? > > > > Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody > > seems > > to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is > > pregnant. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51219	From: Bill	Date: 5/1/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

John and Karlene.. absent a flea market for the floss.. I was told to visit a walmart and buy a bag about the size of a big pillow for like 4 bucks... Someone gave me a lawnleaf bag full so I'm good for a long time!... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 9:25:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Hi Karlene, Some suggestions regarding the filter substrate. Unless you want to remove medications or toxins from your water then you really don't need to have charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space that you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a large colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. Extremely cheap & virtually indestructible plus they hold a lot of good bugs. For the water polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester foam/floss. This is the same material you would use for stuffing soft toys or pillows & again is readily available from market stalls & cost next to nothing, just cut to size & replace at each filter clean. John*<o)))< * On 2 May 2011 02:07, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > Amber, > > If I buy a used tank, or otherwise come into possession of one, all > substrate goes goodbye. Tank is cleaned with bleach and rock salt. Vinegar > is used for hard water stains, should they be present. Tank is allowed to > thoroughly dry. Accessories are gone through, cleaned, repaired or tossed > as > necessary. Any old filter media is disposed of in favor of new. Tank is > slowly filled in stages over several days and checked for leaks. Emptied > again then placed in position for use, or stored for future use. > > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:55 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions > > Was this a freshwater or salt water tank before you bought it? > If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you > bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. > If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and > filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water perhaps only > rinsing the gravel a bit if it's really dirty, hopefully the filter or > gravel wasn't dry for too long or the beneficial bacteria would have > probably all died by now, and you will have to start all over again. > > Bleach should really only be used in drastic measures, as you need to > make sure you rinse everything VERY well after using bleach or it will > easily kill all your fish. Vinegar is fine to use and is much less > likely to cause any fish problems, I can't remember how much to use off > the top of my head right now, perhaps someone else will chime in. > You can get filter media or gravel from an already cycled tank (if you > plant to clean this one really well before adding any fish), try at a > local (mom and pop) fish store, they will often sell you some very cheap > (or even just give you some). It just takes a little bit to get your > beneficial bacteria going, just make sure not to stock the tank very > heavily at first. Only add a few fish, then wait at least a few days > before you add a few more (maybe even a week before adding any more). > Slower is better. > > Amber > > On 5/1/2011 1:47 PM, Karlene wrote: > > > > Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room > now! > > Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. > > > > What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the > > interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave > any > > harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? > > > > Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it > > from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half > > of one > > of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that > > looks > > like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with > > whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I > attempt > > to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also > > showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much > > cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad > > thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here > > quickly enough, I think! > > > > Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea > at > > all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me > > puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I > > added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just > > stick the > > roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't > > looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel > > into the > > new one. > > > > As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and > > one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't > > always > > look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking > > ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. > > > > Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication > > year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing > in > > the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those > > volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? > > > > Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody > > seems > > to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is > > pregnant. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51220	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

If one is purchasing fiber for filters etc in bulk, it must be virgin fiber, no treatments, like fire retardants, mildewcides, etc added to the fiber. The same goes with foam. Treatments added to the materials, as mentioned above, will be a death sentence to your fish. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 12:16 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions John and Karlene.. absent a flea market for the floss.. I was told to visit a walmart and buy a bag about the size of a big pillow for like 4 bucks... Someone gave me a lawnleaf bag full so I'm good for a long time!... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 1, 2011 9:25:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Hi Karlene, Some suggestions regarding the filter substrate. Unless you want to remove medications or toxins from your water then you really don't need to have charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space that you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a large colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. Extremely cheap & virtually indestructible plus they hold a lot of good bugs. For the water polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester foam/floss. This is the same material you would use for stuffing soft toys or pillows & again is readily available from market stalls & cost next to nothing, just cut to size & replace at each filter clean. John*<o)))< * On 2 May 2011 02:07, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > Amber, > > If I buy a used tank, or otherwise come into possession of one, all > substrate goes goodbye. Tank is cleaned with bleach and rock salt. Vinegar > is used for hard water stains, should they be present. Tank is allowed to > thoroughly dry. Accessories are gone through, cleaned, repaired or tossed > as > necessary. Any old filter media is disposed of in favor of new. Tank is > slowly filled in stages over several days and checked for leaks. Emptied > again then placed in position for use, or stored for future use. > > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 5:55 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions > > Was this a freshwater or salt water tank before you bought it? > If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you > bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. > If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and > filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water perhaps only > rinsing the gravel a bit if it's really dirty, hopefully the filter or > gravel wasn't dry for too long or the beneficial bacteria would have > probably all died by now, and you will have to start all over again. > > Bleach should really only be used in drastic measures, as you need to > make sure you rinse everything VERY well after using bleach or it will > easily kill all your fish. Vinegar is fine to use and is much less > likely to cause any fish problems, I can't remember how much to use off > the top of my head right now, perhaps someone else will chime in. > You can get filter media or gravel from an already cycled tank (if you > plant to clean this one really well before adding any fish), try at a > local (mom and pop) fish store, they will often sell you some very cheap > (or even just give you some). It just takes a little bit to get your > beneficial bacteria going, just make sure not to stock the tank very > heavily at first. Only add a few fish, then wait at least a few days > before you add a few more (maybe even a week before adding any more). > Slower is better. > > Amber > > On 5/1/2011 1:47 PM, Karlene wrote: > > > > Well, the 75 gallon tank is a reality, it's sitting in my living room > now! > > Yay! I can't wait to actually get it set up. > > > > What should I clean it with - can I use bleach? I want to clean the > > interior really well, but I don't want to damage the silicone or leave > any > > harmful residue for the fish. Apple Cider Vineger maybe? > > > > Also, it does have the Fluval 404 filtration system. The guy I bought it > > from told me I should fill half of each tray with charcoal, and half > > of one > > of the others with something he couldn't remember the name of but that > > looks > > like little white rocks. He said the other 1/2 tray I could fill with > > whatever I needed . .. how will I know what I need? Also, should I > attempt > > to clean the big sponges that came in it, or just replace them? He also > > showed me how to adjust the flow on it, so that on high I can pretty much > > cycle all the water through 2 times an hour. Is this a good thing or bad > > thing, or does it depend on which fish I get. The books can't get here > > quickly enough, I think! > > > > Steve, you asked how I will cycle the tank. The truth is I have no idea > at > > all! I want to do it right! Even all the talk about substrate has me > > puzzled . . . My previous tanks (years ago) held only fake plants. When I > > added the real plants to this tank the store told me I could just > > stick the > > roots down into the gravel and they'd be fine. Honestly, they aren't > > looking fine, so I've got to figure it out before I dump the gravel > > into the > > new one. > > > > As far as where I'll be buying my fish, I have a choice between PetCo and > > one LFS. They are super nice at the second place, but the fish don't > > always > > look terribly healthy to me, so I'm not sure what to do. I'm thinking > > ordering on-line might be the way to go, if it's a vendor I can trust. > > > > Ray, with the "Exotic Aquarium Fishes" book, do you know the publication > > year of the ones in the green or yellow covers? Most of what I'm seeing > in > > the used selection is listed by year and says "hardcover." Are those > > volumes preferable to the new one, which is readily available? > > > > Thanks for your help and patience. Oh, in little fishville, everybody > > seems > > to be doing well for this moment and I think one of my Platies is > > pregnant. > > > > ~Karlene > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51221	From: Chloe Hopper	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: New Aquarium

So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They were previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they will be enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, background, gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 which was GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I was so excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to get for my birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and allow it to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I don't have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie please dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the quick start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, but ill be getting that Friday. I need some advice on a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want to divide it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 different types of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and i need some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting live-bearers in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies as well, however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place for them to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for the long post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and some quick start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new tank would be great. Thanks much -Chloe* (: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51222	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Hi Chloe, If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the plants and water with. The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter each side, or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. Dividers, with or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we get algae and other things...flow's essential. Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product that's liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six months. If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and overstock, then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to the standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per inch, then you will do just fine. Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, koi, plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. The reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose poop dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The poo just feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at the top breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or you see white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this is caused by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in the low zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go high as 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate factories. Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the system. They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the manufacturer and the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their canister only needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other filter. In salt tanks, weekly. Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters are often under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, with exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon tank fine, within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any filter up. What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper number. They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, it's usually for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but it's worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. ________________________________ From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They were previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they will be enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, background, gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 which was GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I was so excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to get for my birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and allow it to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I don't have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie please dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the quick start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, but ill be getting that Friday. I need some advice on a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want to divide it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 different types of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and i need some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting live-bearers in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies as well, however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place for them to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for the long post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and some quick start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new tank would be great. Thanks much -Chloe* (: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51223	From: haecklers	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

What are your ideas for the two sections, and what kinds of fish are you putting in there? Bettas seem to be able to get over/around most dividers, but we've been successful so far with keeping ours apart - we used aquarium silicone to glue some plastic cross-stitch canvas from the floor, up the walls and all the way up to the cover so there is no way they can get over. The divider does restrict water flow, so if you're not going to seriously understock, I'd suggest a filter for each side of the divider unless you're going to use a LOT of plants (and even then you'll want the filter the first few months until the plants really get going). Also, dividers can be pretty ugly as they get covered with diatoms and algae. They seem to attract it, especially blue-green algae in my tanks! UGH! It may be better to just use two separate tanks. Are you keeping your 20-gallon? What kind of live-bearers do you want to keep? A lot of guppies wouldn't eat their babies unless they're starving. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > >  So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They were previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they will be enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, background, gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 which was GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I was so excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to get for my birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and allow it to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I don't have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie please dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the quick start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, but ill be getting that Friday. I need some advice on > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want to divide it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 different types of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and i need some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting live-bearers in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies as well, however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place for them to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for the long post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and some quick start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new tank would be great. > > > Thanks much > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51224	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Hi Amber. The tank was a freshwater, but I don't know the guy, the condition of his fish, or anything else about him, and the tank was in storage for a bit and is somewhat dusty. I wouldn't be comfortable using it without giving it a good cleaning. Thanks! ~Karlene On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you > bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. > If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and > filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51225	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Steve, Thank you for this very detailed answer. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet . . . truthfully I might try the Dr. Tim's product but still not rush to dump fish in the tank. Would that work or would things be unbalanced without fish there? I'm saving this whole message as I research and work things out. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51226	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Hi Chloe, Congrats on your new tank! I won't confuse you by adding my 2 pence-worth as you already have some great advice but just one thing-you say you put the Pleco into your pond-what climate do you have? I'm just worried he might no survive of it's not warm. John*<o)))< * On 2 May 2011 20:28, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> wrote: > > > Hi Chloe, > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > plants and > water with. > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter each > side, > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. Dividers, > with > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we get > algae > and other things...flow's essential. > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > that's > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > months. > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > overstock, > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to the > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per inch, > then > you will do just fine. > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. The > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose poop > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The poo > just > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at the > top > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or you > see > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this is > caused > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in the > low > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > factories. > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > system. > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the manufacturer > and > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their canister > only > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > filter. > In salt tanks, weekly. > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters are > often > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon tank > fine, > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any filter > up. > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, it's > usually > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but it's > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > ________________________________ > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@...> > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they will be > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > background, > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 which > was > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to get > for my > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > allow it > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > don't > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > please > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, but ill > be > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want to > divide > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 different > types > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and i > need > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > live-bearers > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies as > well, > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place for > them > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for the > long > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and some > quick > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new tank > > would be great. > > Thanks much > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51227	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Hi John. Please be patient with me as I sit here confused. You're saying I shouldn't have any charcoal in the filter at all? What do the pot scrubbers do? I guess I'm confused at what the purpose of the various parts of the filter are. There are 2 long sponges, plus 2 divided trays. The supplies I got with the tank include an unopened back of the white poly floss you mentioned; would that go in one of the trays? I'm kinda lost. ~Karlene On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:25 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: you really don't need to have charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space that you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a large colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. For the water polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester foam/floss. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51228	From: Karlene	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Thanks for the info! So you put the clay down and gravel on top of that? I don't think I'd like the look of just plain dirt (or clay) in the aquarium. I'll also check out Sweet Aquatics! ~Karlene On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:29 AM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted tanks (I got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay pellets). It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the fish waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51229	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. Amber On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Hi Chloe, > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > plants and > water with. > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > each side, > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > Dividers, with > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > get algae > and other things...flow's essential. > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > that's > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > months. > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > overstock, > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > the > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > inch, then > you will do just fine. > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > koi, > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > The > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > poop > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > poo just > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > the top > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > you see > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > is caused > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > the low > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > high as > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > factories. > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > system. > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > manufacturer and > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > canister only > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > filter. > In salt tanks, weekly. > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > are often > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > with > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > tank fine, > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > filter up. > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > number. > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > it's usually > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > it's > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > ________________________________ > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > were > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > will be > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > background, > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > which was > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > was so > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > get for my > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > allow it > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > don't > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > please > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > quick > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > but ill be > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > to divide > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > different types > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > i need > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > live-bearers > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > as well, > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > for them > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > the long > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > some quick > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > tank > would be great. > > Thanks much > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51230	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

You need to use Dr. Tim's product and add fish pretty quickly, or you have just wasted your money. The product contains the live bacteria you need for the cycle, and without a food source, (fish or ammonia) the bacteria will hibernate ( a certain percentage) or die (a much higher percentage) and the tank would need to go through a full cycle prior to use. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Karlene Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 5:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions Steve, Thank you for this very detailed answer. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet . . . truthfully I might try the Dr. Tim's product but still not rush to dump fish in the tank. Would that work or would things be unbalanced without fish there? I'm saving this whole message as I research and work things out. ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51231	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

If it was stored for awhile then all the beneficial bacteria has long since died. Will need a good scrubbing abd probably safer to get new gravel as well. Amber On 5/2/2011 12:56 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Hi Amber. > > The tank was a freshwater, but I don't know the guy, the condition of his > fish, or anything else about him, and the tank was in storage for a > bit and > is somewhat dusty. I wouldn't be comfortable using it without giving it a > good cleaning. > > Thanks! > ~Karlene > > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > If it was freshwater you don't need to sanitize it unless the person you > > bought it from had fish health issues and they all died from something. > > If it was a healthy freshwater tank you should keep the gravel and > > filter like it is and set it up with some fresh water > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51232	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Instead of charcoal I use extra sponges or poly filter, sponges will help trap particles (such as poop and uneaten food), and will require heavier cleaning during filter maintenance than the poly filter, but it's better at keeping the water clean. Poly filter is what is used to act as a "home" for your beneficial bacteria colony, which is what eats the ammonia and nitrites and keeps them at 0 in a cycled tank. The poly floss would go in one of those trays, and normally you could use a bag of charcoal or more sponges in the other tray. Pot scrubbers would work similar to the poly floss I'm assuming (I've never used them myself). Amber On 5/2/2011 1:22 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Hi John. > > Please be patient with me as I sit here confused. You're saying I > shouldn't > have any charcoal in the filter at all? What do the pot scrubbers do? I > guess I'm confused at what the purpose of the various parts of the filter > are. There are 2 long sponges, plus 2 divided trays. The supplies I got > with the tank include an unopened back of the white poly floss you > mentioned; would that go in one of the trays? I'm kinda lost. > > ~Karlene > > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:25 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john%40ntlworld.com>>wrote: > > you really don't need to have > charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space > that > you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a > large > colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the > hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. > For the water > polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester > foam/floss. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51233	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

I also have Walstad tanks, but I used organic soil in my tanks (not clay). I'm assuming from the description that the clay is the only substrate in their tank, but I'm not certain. In my tank you add about 2 inches of soil (make sure to let it air out to get rid of any ammonia in the soil), then you cover it with about an inch of small gravel (smaller is better, but sand is too small, try to get something around the size of a pea or slightly smaller), then you add water. When adding the water put a plate on top of the soil and aim the water onto the plate so it doesn't stir up the gravel/soil and make a muddy mess of your water. I used Black Gold potting soil for my tanks. The only problem to this is after several years you tend to have to break down the tank and set it up with fresh dirt again, but I haven't gotten to that point with my tanks yet. The oldest one I have is about 1 1/2 years old now, and growing plants like crazy. I enjoy Walstad tanks because it's a very natural look (plants and fish) but doesn't require expensive fertilizers (such as CO2 injection). I use filters for my Walstad tanks and clean them typically weekly (at most every 2 weeks on my less stocked tanks). Here are some instructions on setting up a walstad tank with picture examples. http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-a-walstad-natural-planted-tank.html Amber On 5/2/2011 1:25 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Thanks for the info! > > So you put the clay down and gravel on top of that? I don't think I'd like > the look of just plain dirt (or clay) in the aquarium. > > I'll also check out Sweet Aquatics! > > ~Karlene > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:29 AM, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted > tanks (I > got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay > pellets). > It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the > fish > waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51234	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Oops I had the link wrong (you can find the step by step instructions at the bottom of the page I linked). Or you can go here directly: http://thegab.org/Plants/step-by-step-setting-up-a-walstad-type-natural-planted-tank.html Amber On 5/2/2011 1:25 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Thanks for the info! > > So you put the clay down and gravel on top of that? I don't think I'd like > the look of just plain dirt (or clay) in the aquarium. > > I'll also check out Sweet Aquatics! > > ~Karlene > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:29 AM, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted > tanks (I > got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay > pellets). > It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the > fish > waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51235	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Hi Karlene, Yes-unless you have some toxic issues or wanted to remove medications from your tank water after treatment then you are far better with no carbon. Many manufacturers put carbon or charcoal based media on their filters as standard but you really don't need it unless you are going to remove medications or other toxins from your tank. In general day-to-day use in healthy tanks carbon media does very little compared to regular inert ceramic chips or sponges. Fish keeping is big business & like many stores & websites-manufactures do not always tell us the best thing for our fish. For example I have a small Eheim 2026 canister filter running a UV sterilizer sub-system & this is around 5 years old as it was the main filter on my last tank . Instead of the suggested expensive ceramic chips which they tell us to replace periodically I use nylon pan scrubbers that have been in the filter since day 1. Also the blue open pore sponge divider in the middle of my filter is still going strong despite their advice to replace it every so often. The only thing that changes is the water polishing poly floss at the top which I replace every 4/5 weeks or so when I do a filter clean & check the UV. The nylon pot scrubbers are just a suggestion for a cheap yet excellent media as they have a large amount of surface in a small area so you can grow a large colony of good bugs that will take care of your water quality plus they are almost indestructible but ceramic chips or small bio balls also last forever & will do just as well, in fact you can use more than one media if you want to as you have trays. Can you say what make & model your filter is? the poly floss is usually the final media the water goes through before returning to the tank. The biological filtration takes place in the main compartment[s] of the filter with the floss 'polishing' the last remnants of debris from the water before it returns to your tank. If you want to make your own poly inserts rather than buy them ready cut then that was a good piece of advice from Steve to make sure it is not impregnated with anything like fire retardants. Does this all make sense? please let me know if you need anything explaining more as I know how confusing it all is when you are starting out! John*<o)))< * On 2 May 2011 22:22, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > > Hi John. > > Please be patient with me as I sit here confused. You're saying I shouldn't > have any charcoal in the filter at all? What do the pot scrubbers do? I > guess I'm confused at what the purpose of the various parts of the filter > are. There are 2 long sponges, plus 2 divided trays. The supplies I got > with the tank include an unopened back of the white poly floss you > mentioned; would that go in one of the trays? I'm kinda lost. > > ~Karlene > > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:25 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@... > >wrote: > > > you really don't need to have > charcoal or carbon in there all the time as it takes up valuable space that > you could use for other media that will work a lot better at hosting a > large > colony of good bugs. I generally use regular nylon pan scrubbers from the > hardware store together with a sprinkling of bio balls. > For the water > polishing before it is returned to the tank I use white polyester > foam/floss. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51236	From: gelynch52ph	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: My first post is a question

I'm Jerry Lynch, an American in Mindanao, Philippines and a question was asked in another forum that I do not know the answer to. Does anyone know of daphnia species and availability in my area? A search of them tells me how to grow/culture them from existing stock, but a Canadian living near me is wondering if or how he can get a culture. I've never raised or used daphnia and would like to help the guy out. Jerry Lynch [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51237	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, there is a very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is every bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We breed many species. I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my experience with Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying (nutritious bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried bacteria, which will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long and most have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water does not circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, Amber, what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live culture, which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please consider trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or coral. http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when dealing with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to assure that they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every person's setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can handle how many of which fishes. Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java Moss, and Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very careful while keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on overhangs, because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. They don't filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop is not trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. Carbon is not necessary. True. Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always going to be different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving mostly the same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going about doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. The person asked for advice. No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out what you'd like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best for your situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the filtration will become insufficient. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. Amber On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Hi Chloe, > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > plants and > water with. > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > each side, > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > Dividers, with > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > get algae > and other things...flow's essential. > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > that's > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > months. > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > overstock, > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > the > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > inch, then > you will do just fine. > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > koi, > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > The > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > poop > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > poo just > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > the top > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > you see > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > is caused > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > the low > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > high as > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > factories. > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > system. > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > manufacturer and > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > canister only > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > filter. > In salt tanks, weekly. > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > are often > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > with > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > tank fine, > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > filter up. > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > number. > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > it's usually > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > it's > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > ________________________________ > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > were > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > will be > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > background, > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > which was > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > was so > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > get for my > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > allow it > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > don't > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > please > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > quick > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > but ill be > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > to divide > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > different types > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > i need > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > live-bearers > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > as well, > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > for them > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > the long > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > some quick > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > tank > would be great. > > Thanks much > -Chloe* (: > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51238	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I cannot say the same about Biozyme. And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew about cycling it first. Amber On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > there is a > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > every > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > breed > many species. > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > experience with > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > (nutritious > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > bacteria, which > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > and most > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > does not > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > Amber, > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > culture, > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > consider > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > coral. > http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > dealing > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > assure that > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > person's > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > handle how > many of which fishes. > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > Moss, and > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > careful while > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > overhangs, > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > They don't > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > is not > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > going to be > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > mostly the > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > about > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > The person > asked for advice. > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > what you'd > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > for your > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > filtration will become insufficient. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > plants and > > water with. > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > each side, > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > Dividers, with > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > get algae > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > that's > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > months. > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > overstock, > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > the > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > inch, then > > you will do just fine. > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > The > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > poop > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > poo just > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > the top > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > you see > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > is caused > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > the low > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > best > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > factories. > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > system. > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > manufacturer and > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > canister only > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > filter. > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > are often > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > tank fine, > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > filter up. > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > it's usually > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > it's > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > will be > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > background, > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > which was > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > get for my > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > allow it > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > don't > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > please > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > but ill be > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > to divide > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > different types > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > Also, > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > i need > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > live-bearers > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > as well, > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > for them > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > the long > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > some quick > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > tank > > would be great. > > > > Thanks much > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51239	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No living waste to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first stocked. I wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy cocktails being sold. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I cannot say the same about Biozyme. And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew about cycling it first. Amber On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > there is a > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > every > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > breed > many species. > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > experience with > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > (nutritious > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > bacteria, which > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > and most > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > does not > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > Amber, > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > culture, > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > consider > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > coral. >http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp >p > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > dealing > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > assure that > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > person's > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > handle how > many of which fishes. > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > Moss, and > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > careful while > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > overhangs, > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > They don't > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > is not > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > going to be > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > mostly the > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > about > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > The person > asked for advice. > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > what you'd > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > for your > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > filtration will become insufficient. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > plants and > > water with. > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > each side, > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > Dividers, with > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > get algae > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > that's > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > months. > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > overstock, > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > the > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > inch, then > > you will do just fine. > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > The > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > poop > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > poo just > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > the top > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > you see > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > is caused > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > the low > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > best > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > factories. > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > system. > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > manufacturer and > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > canister only > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > filter. > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > are often > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > tank fine, > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > filter up. > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > it's usually > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > it's > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > will be > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > background, > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > which was > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > get for my > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > allow it > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > don't > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > please > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > but ill be > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > to divide > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > different types > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > Also, > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > i need > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > live-bearers > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > as well, > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > for them > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > the long > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > some quick > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > tank > > would be great. > > > > Thanks much > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51240	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. > >http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51241	From: Bill	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

Amber Im a Walstad fan also but I do use sand to cover my soil. It is a specific type of sand called Swimming pool filter sand. (PFS) The diameter of the grains are .45 - .55 cm. This size sand allows for the passage of water/ox to the soil. Play sand and concrete sand are finer and will lock out a water exchange. The pool filter sand is used to filter the water as it passes thru it within the pool filter. The only other thing I do is to bake my soil in batches before I place it in the tank. Bring it up to 190 degrees for about 1/2 hour to rid the soil of any potential critters. DO NOT GO higher! I've been warned as it can create some toxins within the soil. Plus it would kill off most of the bacterial advantages of using soil. One other thing, buy the cheapest topsoil avail at your local big box store. They will not contain any additives. ie. ferts. The label should state no additives. Cost is about 2.00 which is enough to do a std. 55 gal tank. The pool filter sand here is 10.00 for a 50 lb bag of which you'll need about 35 lbs to cover to a depth of 1.5 - 2 inches of that 55g. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:41:07 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions I also have Walstad tanks, but I used organic soil in my tanks (not clay). I'm assuming from the description that the clay is the only substrate in their tank, but I'm not certain. In my tank you add about 2 inches of soil (make sure to let it air out to get rid of any ammonia in the soil), then you cover it with about an inch of small gravel (smaller is better, but sand is too small, try to get something around the size of a pea or slightly smaller), then you add water. When adding the water put a plate on top of the soil and aim the water onto the plate so it doesn't stir up the gravel/soil and make a muddy mess of your water. I used Black Gold potting soil for my tanks. The only problem to this is after several years you tend to have to break down the tank and set it up with fresh dirt again, but I haven't gotten to that point with my tanks yet. The oldest one I have is about 1 1/2 years old now, and growing plants like crazy. I enjoy Walstad tanks because it's a very natural look (plants and fish) but doesn't require expensive fertilizers (such as CO2 injection). I use filters for my Walstad tanks and clean them typically weekly (at most every 2 weeks on my less stocked tanks). Here are some instructions on setting up a walstad tank with picture examples. http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-a-walstad-natural-planted-tank.html Amber On 5/2/2011 1:25 PM, Karlene wrote: > > Thanks for the info! > > So you put the clay down and gravel on top of that? I don't think I'd like > the look of just plain dirt (or clay) in the aquarium. > > I'll also check out Sweet Aquatics! > > ~Karlene > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:29 AM, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted > tanks (I > got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay > pellets). > It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the > fish > waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51242	From: Bill	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp >p > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51243	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/2/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Dr, Tim Hovanec is a scientist in this field and is also a member of this group and may come on to dispute your ill informed comments. Many of us have used his product with excellent results prior to his joining this group. Dr. Tim also holds patents for many items in the aquarium field including the biowheel filters used in home aquaria as well as within the grocery industry in Lobster and crab tanks. I would skip Biozyme in favor of a product I know works. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No living waste to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first stocked. I wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy cocktails being sold. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I cannot say the same about Biozyme. And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew about cycling it first. Amber On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > there is a > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > every > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > breed > many species. > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > experience with > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > (nutritious > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > bacteria, which > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > and most > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > does not > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > Amber, > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > culture, > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > consider > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > coral. >http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enz ymes/3263.asp >p > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > dealing > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > assure that > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > person's > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > handle how > many of which fishes. > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > Moss, and > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > careful while > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > overhangs, > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > They don't > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > is not > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > going to be > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > mostly the > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > about > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > The person > asked for advice. > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > what you'd > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > for your > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > filtration will become insufficient. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > plants and > > water with. > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > each side, > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > Dividers, with > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > get algae > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > that's > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > months. > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > overstock, > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > the > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > inch, then > > you will do just fine. > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > The > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > poop > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > poo just > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > the top > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > you see > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > is caused > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > the low > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > best > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > factories. > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > system. > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > manufacturer and > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > canister only > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > filter. > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > are often > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > tank fine, > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > filter up. > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > it's usually > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > it's > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > will be > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > background, > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > which was > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > get for my > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > allow it > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > don't > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > please > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > but ill be > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > to divide > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > different types > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > Also, > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > i need > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > live-bearers > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > as well, > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > for them > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > the long > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > some quick > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > tank > > would be great. > > > > Thanks much > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51244	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: New and need help

Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics.    Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51245	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Hello Livin (?) -- (Please sign your posts), You're entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else here is. I can see you have some experience, but like everyone else in the hobby, you can never know it all -- there is always something else that you need to learn, in fact, the more you know about something -- such as this hobby -- the more you soon realize that there's so much more to learn about it than you ever knew before. I recognize your 37 years experience, but I cannot consider this necessarily having expertise, i.e., having the knowledge of an expert, especially since we all learn at different rates and we all learn from experiences that we only had -- never having the full benefit of all possible experiences that may occur. Glad to see you with us though, to give us your insights and help add to the input here. I can truthfully say that I now have 64 years experience (27 more years than you) in the aquarium hobby, and while I may have had the benefit of possibly learning more than some other hobbyists not having the opportunity yet to gain quite as much knowledge, I'll be the first to admit that I still have a lot to learn. While I may have more expertise than you, I am by no stretch of the imagination an "expert," and I can't see how you could claim to be one. I recognize too, that you may prefer to do things differently and even have success with your ways, but even as you're saying, your methods may well not work for others especially when they are unorthodox. Now, getting right to the topic of starting a cycle, adding beneficial bacteria and in particular -- using Biozyme; I'm pleased to see that you feel you've had success with it. But, do not rule out considering that Biozyme most often does little to nothing in starting a biological cycle in the aquarium -- just as Amber has experienced. I actually can't understand how you could feel this product established a cycle for you in short time if you knew the principles behind it. I'm presuming that your ammonia and nitrite never spiked when using Biozyme in starting your aquarium and having fish added early to it, but then, I'd have to also assume that you kept your bioload on the light side (and that your fish were actually doing the cycling of the tank). As autotrophic aerobic nitrobacteraceae REQUIRE to constantly be in the presence of oxygenated water, dried bacteria cultures such as Biozyme cannot offer such nitrifying bacteria -- so cannot immediately start a cycle, such as what Dr. Tim's liquid product which contains these live organisms can do. You posed a question to Amber, asking if she had ever used Biozyme. My question to you is, have you ever used one of the liquid nitrifying bacteria cultures to establish a cycle? If you haven't, it's highly irresponsible of you to state that it's a waste of money and that it's not as good as using a culture of dried bacteria. If you have used one of these liquid products and have not had success with it, I regret to hear you had such an experience but have to add that it's failure was not due to the product and that this was undoubtedly due to the poor handing of the product before it reached your hands; the dealer/LFS owner must not have REFRIGERATED it, or had sold it to you after its shelf-life expiration date (SHELF-life in this case does NOT mean the product is to be stored on the SHELF). The liquid nitrifying bacteria products are formulated, albeit, with a finite "shelf" live, provided it's refrigerated, for storage of a limited time WITHOUT needing to be fed -- as you are suggesting -- nor in its state of animated suspension does it need water flowing past it. While still being in the presence of water containing oxygen, in the jars that they're contained in, while in their state of suspension they are using very little of this oxygen they're stored with. The original formula, BioSpira, was excellent in this regard as long as its storage requirements were met. It's later development, also by Dr. Tim Novalek, named Dr. Tim's One and Only, has an even longer "shelf" life when kept properly stored in refrigeration. Biospira, on the other hand contains primarily heterotrophic anaerobic bacteria of necessity, as these are the only types of bacteria that will survive in arid, liquid-less conditions. These facultative anaerobic bacteria have evolved to survive and function with extremely little oxygen and no oxygen at all for shorter periods. These types of bacteria will break down any and all organic matter by the process of putrification, without the use of oxygen. Therefore, they do not populate the aquarium filter -- and ARE NOT nitrifying bacteria. They will, however, in the process of breaking down organic matter (such as fish food and/or waste), provide food for nitrifying bacteria once this broken down food becomes available for your nitrifying bacteria -- which can take up to two weeks before it's made availble. Your nitrifying bacteria found in your water can then start its colonization in your filter, finally establishing a cycle after some period of time -- often somewhat sooner than the normal six weeks it usually can take, but still not within any very noticeable abbreviated time such as what would be experienced with a liquid cycling product. For that matter, if one were to prefer using a dried bacteria culture such as Biozyme, he or she may just as soon start a cycle with the use of a piece of table shrimp and having it rot in the water to provide food for starting the multiplication of nitrifying bacteria in the filter, as this would essentially be the same thing. The addition of Biozyme though, in this case, would aid in being beneficial to being available in greater quantities to break down this shrimp product though, which would create food for nitrifying bacteria even faster, even though it's not these dried bacteria themselves which start your biological cycle in your filter. If you were to ask me if I've ever used Biozyme, my answer is yes -- a number of times -- with the same negative results that Amber had. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> wrote: > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, there is a > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is every > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We breed > many species. > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my experience with > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying (nutritious > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried bacteria, which > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long and most > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water does not > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, Amber, > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live culture, > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please consider > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > coral. > http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when dealing > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to assure that > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every person's > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can handle how > many of which fishes. > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java Moss, and > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very careful while > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on overhangs, > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. They don't > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop is not > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always going to be > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving mostly the > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going about > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. The person > asked for advice. > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out what you'd > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best for your > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > plants and > > water with. > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > each side, > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > Dividers, with > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > get algae > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > that's > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > months. > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > overstock, > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > the > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > inch, then > > you will do just fine. > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > The > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > poop > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > poo just > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > the top > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > you see > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > is caused > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > the low > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > factories. > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > system. > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > manufacturer and > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > canister only > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > filter. > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > are often > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > tank fine, > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > filter up. > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > it's usually > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > it's > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > will be > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > background, > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > which was > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > get for my > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > allow it > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > don't > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > please > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > but ill be > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > to divide > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > different types > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > i need > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > live-bearers > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > as well, > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > for them > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > the long > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > some quick > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > tank > > would be great. > > > > Thanks much > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51246	From: Livin Lovin	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool bullies. Thankyou for the warm welcome. What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become part of the community. Back to your clique! ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp >> >p > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51247	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Never did catch your name? -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool bullies. Thankyou for the warm welcome. What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become part of the community. Back to your clique! ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/en zymes/3263.asp >> >p > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51248	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Hi again, Livin, I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not put as much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's that you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice nor being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got done stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone else here is. As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it as such just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you instead to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn more about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done offering you about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions on them. No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and friendly. I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind to other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another post on the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it just sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully understanding the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you already -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if you don't know the principles behind them. Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration here, as I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn from them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. Best, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> wrote: > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool bullies. > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > living waste > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > stocked. I > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > > cocktails being sold. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > about cycling it first. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > there is a > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > > every > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > least 37 > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > > breed > > > many species. > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > experience with > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > (nutritious > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > bacteria, which > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > > and most > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > > does not > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > > Amber, > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > culture, > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > consider > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > plants or > > > coral. > >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > >> > >p > > >p > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > > dealing > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > assure that > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > person's > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > handle how > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > Moss, and > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > careful while > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > overhangs, > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > They don't > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > > is not > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > going to be > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > mostly the > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > > about > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > The person > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > what you'd > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > for your > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > > plants and > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > > each side, > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > Dividers, with > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > > get algae > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > called > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > > that's > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > better. > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > combat > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > > months. > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > > overstock, > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > > the > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > > inch, then > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > > koi, > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > > The > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > > poop > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > > poo just > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > > the top > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > > you see > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > > is caused > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > > the low > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > > high as > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > dime each > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > > best > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > discuss poo > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > factories. > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > > system. > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > manufacturer and > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > canister only > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > monthly/bi > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > > filter. > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > > are often > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > > with > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > > tank fine, > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > > number. > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > it's usually > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > > it's > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > > were > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > will be > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > > background, > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > > which was > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > > was so > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > > get for my > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > > allow it > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > > don't > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > > please > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > > quick > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > > but ill be > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > > to divide > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > different types > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > > Also, > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > > i need > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > live-bearers > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > > as well, > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > > for them > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > > the long > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > > some quick > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > > tank > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > you can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > where you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51249	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit harder to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own beliefs!.. So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored way)... Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the introduction of an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter media or substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction of an appropiate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge filter and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... And water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few tests showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 days.... I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an additional 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Hi again, Livin, I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not put as much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's that you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice nor being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got done stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone else here is. As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it as such just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you instead to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn more about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done offering you about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions on them. No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and friendly. I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind to other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another post on the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it just sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully understanding the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you already -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if you don't know the principles behind them. Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration here, as I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn from them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. Best, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> wrote: > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool >bullies. > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must >be > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > living waste > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > stocked. I > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > > cocktails being sold. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > about cycling it first. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > there is a > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > > every > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > least 37 > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > > breed > > > many species. > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > experience with > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > (nutritious > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > bacteria, which > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > > and most > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > > does not > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > > Amber, > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > culture, > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > consider > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > plants or > > > coral. >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp >p > >> > >p > > >p > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > > dealing > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > assure that > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > person's > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > handle how > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > Moss, and > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > careful while > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > overhangs, > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > They don't > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > > is not > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > going to be > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > mostly the > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > > about > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > The person > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > what you'd > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > for your > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > > plants and > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > > each side, > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > Dividers, with > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > > get algae > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > called > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > > that's > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > better. > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > combat > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > > months. > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > > overstock, > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > > the > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > > inch, then > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > > koi, > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > > The > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > > poop > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > > poo just > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > > the top > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > > you see > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > > is caused > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > > the low > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > > high as > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > dime each > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > > best > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > discuss poo > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > factories. > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > > system. > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > manufacturer and > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > canister only > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > monthly/bi > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > > filter. > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > > are often > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > > with > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > > tank fine, > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > > number. > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > it's usually > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > > it's > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > > were > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > will be > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > > background, > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > > which was > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > > was so > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > > get for my > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > > allow it > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > > don't > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > > please > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > > quick > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > > but ill be > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > > to divide > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > different types > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > > Also, > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > > i need > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > live-bearers > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > > as well, > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > > for them > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > > the long > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > > some quick > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > > tank > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > you can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > where you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >-> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51250	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Livin, Yes -- live, functioning and active nitrifying bacteria need food (organic waste) to live. As these bacteria are also aerobic, they also need circulation of oxygen-bearing water passing by them constantly if they are active and functioning. BUT, these bacteria have been specially formulated by Dr. Tim (Timothy) A. Hovanec to remain for an extended, albeit finite, period in a state of suspended animation. As such, they do not require food, nor do they consume much oxygen in their present state, as long as they're kept refigerated as per directions by Dr Hovanec, and used within the stated period of expiration. After this expiration date, and even in refrigeration, the food and oxygen will eventually run out as it will finally all be consumed, but up until then -- and especially as soon as it can be used -- the product is completely viable and able to populate a filter having their needed water circulation of nutrients. Again, for you to make comments such as "horse and buggy cocktails" without fully understanding the product is to be irresponsible with your opinions and not valuable to other members. Please understand that YOU need to understand a subject well enough before you can pass judgment on it to others. This is not being rude, but just friendly advice, thank you. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > > coral. > >http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51251	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Hi Cindy, That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then the strips. I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly who will be able to advise! John*<o)))<* On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > Understand. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51252	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Hi Bill, What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is populated to handle. A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting repopulated from this "seeding." Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit harder > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own beliefs!.. > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored way)... > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the introduction of > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter media or > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction of an > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge filter > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... And > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few tests > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 days.... > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an additional > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Hi again, Livin, > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not put as > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's that > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice nor > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got done > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone > else here is. > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it as such > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you instead > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn more > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done offering you > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions on > them. > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and friendly. > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind to > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another post on > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it just > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully understanding > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you already > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if you > don't know the principles behind them. > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration here, as > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn from > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > Best, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > >bullies. > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must > >be > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > living waste > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > stocked. I > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > there is a > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > > > every > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > least 37 > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > > > breed > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > experience with > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > (nutritious > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > bacteria, which > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > > > and most > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > > > does not > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > > > Amber, > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > culture, > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > consider > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > plants or > > > > coral. > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes/3263.asp > >p > > >> > > >p > > > >p > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > > > dealing > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > assure that > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > person's > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > handle how > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > Moss, and > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > careful while > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > overhangs, > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > They don't > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > > > is not > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > going to be > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > mostly the > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > > > about > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > The person > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > what you'd > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > for your > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > > > plants and > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > > > each side, > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > > > get algae > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > called > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > > > that's > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > combat > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > > > months. > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > > > overstock, > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > > > the > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > > > inch, then > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > > > koi, > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > > > The > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > > > poop > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > > > poo just > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > > > the top > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > > > you see > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > > > is caused > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > > > the low > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > > > high as > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > dime each > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > > > best > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > discuss poo > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > factories. > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > > > system. > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > canister only > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > monthly/bi > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > > > filter. > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > > > are often > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > > > with > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > > > number. > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > it's usually > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > > > it's > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > > > were > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > will be > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > > > background, > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > > > which was > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > > > was so > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > > > get for my > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > > > allow it > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > > > don't > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > > > please > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > > > quick > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > > > but ill be > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > > > to divide > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > different types > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > > > Also, > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > > > i need > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > > > as well, > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > > > for them > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > > > the long > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > > > some quick > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > > > tank > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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> > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > >-> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51253	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T; was, New Aquarium

So he's (LL) going to take his ball and go home.. Some folks just can't stand being shown that that which they believe is somewhat in error.. Tks for the update Ray. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 3:54:01 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Never did catch your name? -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:48 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool bullies. Thankyou for the warm welcome. What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become part of the community. Back to your clique! ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/en zymes/3263.asp >> >p > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51254	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T; was, New Aquarium

Bill, I was hoping he wouldn't leave, as someone with 37 years of experience must have something to offer. Like anything else though, new information must be taken with a grain of salt, but I'm always open to learning something new when it's applicable. Besides, I'd prefer it when they may consider learning new stuff (to them) which could help them succeed better if they'd only heed it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > So he's (LL) going to take his ball and go home.. Some folks just can't stand > being shown that that which they believe is somewhat in error.. Tks for the > update Ray. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 3:54:01 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > Never did catch your name? > > -Mike G > > -----Original Message----- > From: Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:48 pm > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not > to allow > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are > #1, bad > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > bullies. > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. > It must be > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish > store owners > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's > instant > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all > the > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. > It > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > living waste > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > stocked. I > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > cocktails being sold. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many > people, I > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed > quite a > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > about cycling it first. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > there is a > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > every > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > least 37 > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > breed > > > many species. > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > experience with > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > (nutritious > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > bacteria, which > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > and most > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > does not > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > Amber, > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > culture, > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > consider > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > plants or > > > coral. > >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/en > zymes/3263.asp > >> > >p > > >p > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > dealing > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > assure that > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > person's > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > handle how > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > Moss, and > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > careful while > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > overhangs, > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > They don't > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > is not > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > going to be > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > mostly the > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > about > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > The person > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > what you'd > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > for your > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't > see how > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > plants and > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > each side, > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > Dividers, with > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > get algae > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > called > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > that's > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > better. > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > combat > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > months. > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > overstock, > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > the > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > inch, then > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > koi, > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > The > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > poop > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it > out. The > > > > poo just > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > the top > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > you see > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > is caused > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says > it's in > > > > the low > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > high as > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > dime each > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > best > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > discuss poo > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > factories. > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > system. > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > manufacturer and > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > canister only > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > monthly/bi > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > filter. > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > are often > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > with > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > tank fine, > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > number. > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > it's usually > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > it's > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > were > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > will be > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > background, > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > which was > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for > me. I > > > > was so > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really > wanted to > > > > get for my > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set > up and > > > > allow it > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > don't > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > please > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > quick > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > but ill be > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > to divide > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > different types > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > Also, > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a > tank and > > > > i need > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > live-bearers > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > as well, > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > for them > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > the long > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > some quick > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of > my new > > > > tank > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > >¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > you can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" > on the > > > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the > digest, > > > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > option > > > > where you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive > individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > >¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the > digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51255	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51256	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Hi Bill, What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is populated to handle. A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting repopulated from this "seeding." Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit harder > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own beliefs!.. > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored way)... > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the introduction of > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter media or > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction of an > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge filter > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... And > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few tests > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 days.... > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an additional > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Hi again, Livin, > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not put as > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's that > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice nor > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got done > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone > else here is. > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it as such > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you instead > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn more > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done offering you > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions on > them. > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and friendly. > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind to > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another post on > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it just > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully understanding > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you already > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if you > don't know the principles behind them. > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration here, as > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn from > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > Best, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > >bullies. > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must > >be > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > living waste > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > stocked. I > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > there is a > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > > > every > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > least 37 > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > > > breed > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > experience with > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > (nutritious > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > bacteria, which > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > > > and most > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > > > does not > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > > > Amber, > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > culture, > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > consider > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > plants or > > > > coral. > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy mes/3263.asp > >p > > >> > > >p > > > >p > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > > > dealing > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > assure that > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > person's > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > handle how > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > Moss, and > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > careful while > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > overhangs, > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > They don't > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > > > is not > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > going to be > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > mostly the > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > > > about > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > The person > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > what you'd > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > for your > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > > > plants and > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > > > each side, > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > > > get algae > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > called > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > > > that's > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > combat > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > > > months. > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > > > overstock, > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > > > the > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > > > inch, then > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > > > koi, > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > > > The > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > > > poop > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > > > poo just > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > > > the top > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > > > you see > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > > > is caused > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > > > the low > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > > > high as > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > dime each > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > > > best > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > discuss poo > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > factories. > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > > > system. > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > canister only > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > monthly/bi > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > > > filter. > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > > > are often > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > > > with > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > > > number. > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > it's usually > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > > > it's > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > > > were > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > will be > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > > > background, > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > > > which was > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > > > was so > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > > > get for my > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > > > allow it > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > > > don't > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > > > please > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > > > quick > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > > > but ill be > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > > > to divide > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > different types > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > > > Also, > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > > > i need > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > > > as well, > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > > > for them > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > > > the long > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > > > some quick > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > > > tank > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > Thank You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > important to the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > you can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > where you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > home > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > >-> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > >-> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51257	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Donna.. I'm a bit confused... New tank, new filter.... no ammonia, no nitrites, no nitrates... no fish.. no cycle... I would think you would experience the start of the cycle once ya introduced the fish. Perhaps I'm missing something. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:14:29 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Hi Bill, What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is populated to handle. A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting repopulated from this "seeding." Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit harder > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own beliefs!.. > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored way)... > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the introduction of > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter media or > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction of an > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge filter > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... And > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few tests > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 days.... > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an additional > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Hi again, Livin, > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not put as > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's that > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice nor > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got done > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as everyone > else here is. > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it as such > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you instead > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn more > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done offering you > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions on > them. > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and friendly. > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind to > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another post on > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it just > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully understanding > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you already > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if you > don't know the principles behind them. > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration here, as > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn from > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > Best, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > >bullies. > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must > >be > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > living waste > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > stocked. I > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > there is a > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > > > every > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > least 37 > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > > > breed > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > experience with > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > (nutritious > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > bacteria, which > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > > > and most > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > > > does not > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > > > Amber, > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > culture, > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > consider > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > plants or > > > > coral. > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy mes/3263.asp > >p > > >> > > >p > > > >p > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > > > dealing > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > assure that > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > person's > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > handle how > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > Moss, and > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > careful while > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > overhangs, > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > They don't > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > > > is not > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > going to be > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > mostly the > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > > > about > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > The person > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > what you'd > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > for your > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > > > plants and > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > > > each side, > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > > > get algae > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > called > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > > > that's > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > combat > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > > > months. > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > > > overstock, > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > > > the > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > > > inch, then > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > > > koi, > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > > > The > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > > > poop > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > > > poo just > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > > > the top > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > > > you see > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > > > is caused > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > > > the low > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > > > high as > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > dime each > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > > > best > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > discuss poo > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > factories. > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > > > system. > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > canister only > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > monthly/bi > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > > > filter. > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > > > are often > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > > > with > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > > > number. > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > it's usually > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > > > it's > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > > > were > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > will be > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > > > background, > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > > > which was > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > > > was so > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > > > get for my > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > > > allow it > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > > > don't > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > > > please > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > > > quick > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > > > but ill be > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > > > to divide > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > different types > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > > > Also, > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > > > i need > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > > > as well, > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > > > for them > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > > > the long > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > > > some quick > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > > > tank > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51258	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Bill, It appears you missed one very important point. Donna said that she puts the new filter on the ESTABLISHED tank (the tank that has been running and already cycled) for two weeks to get the bacteria established from it, Then transfers this new filter to her new tank, which is ready to go to work right away. All kinds of organic waste in the established tank, just waiting for a new filter to get populated. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Donna.. I'm a bit confused... New tank, new filter.... no ammonia, no nitrites, > no nitrates... no fish.. no cycle... I would think you would experience the > start of the cycle once ya introduced the fish. Perhaps I'm missing something. > Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:14:29 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > Hi Bill, > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > populated to handle. > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > repopulated from this "seeding." > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > harder > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > beliefs!.. > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > way)... > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > introduction of > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > media or > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > of an > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > filter > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > And > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > tests > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > days.... > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > additional > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > put as > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > that > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > nor > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > done > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > everyone > > else here is. > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > as such > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > instead > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > more > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > offering you > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > on > > them. > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > friendly. > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > to > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > post on > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > just > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > understanding > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > already > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > you > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > here, as > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > from > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > Best, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > allow > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > bad > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > must > > >be > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > owners > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > living waste > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > stocked. I > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > I > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > a > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > there is a > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > > > every > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > least 37 > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > > > breed > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > experience with > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > > > and most > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > > > does not > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > > > Amber, > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > culture, > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > consider > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > plants or > > > > > coral. > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > mes/3263.asp > > >p > > > >> > > > >p > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > > > dealing > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > assure that > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > person's > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > handle how > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > careful while > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > They don't > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > > > is not > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > going to be > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > mostly the > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > > > about > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > The person > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > what you'd > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > for your > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > how > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > called > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > > > that's > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > combat > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > > > months. > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > > > the > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > > > The > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > > > poop > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > The > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > > > you see > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > in > > > > > > the low > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > > > high as > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > dime each > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > > > best > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > > > system. > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > > > are often > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > > > with > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > > > number. > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > > > were > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > will be > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > > > background, > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > > > which was > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > I > > > > > > was so > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > to > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > and > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > > > please > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > > > quick > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > different types > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > > > Also, > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > and > > > > > > i need > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > > > for them > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > > > the long > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > new > > > > > > tank > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51259	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Donna, I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter established. I have to presume that you also still have the original established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. Naturally, as both would be sharing the available nutrients, when you remove the new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some catching up to do in getting its population up to its old level and wouldn't be quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few larger water changing in the meantime during this period. Still -- excellent! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > populated to handle. > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > repopulated from this "seeding." > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > harder > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > beliefs!.. > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > way)... > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > introduction of > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > media or > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > of an > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > filter > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > And > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > tests > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > days.... > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > additional > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > put as > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > that > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > nor > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > done > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > everyone > > else here is. > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > as such > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > instead > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > more > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > offering you > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > on > > them. > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > friendly. > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > to > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > post on > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > just > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > understanding > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > already > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > you > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > here, as > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > from > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > Best, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > allow > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > bad > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > must > > >be > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > owners > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > living waste > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > stocked. I > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > I > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > a > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > there is a > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > > > every > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > least 37 > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > > > breed > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > experience with > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > > > and most > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > > > does not > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > > > Amber, > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > culture, > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > consider > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > plants or > > > > > coral. > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > mes/3263.asp > > >p > > > >> > > > >p > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > > > dealing > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > assure that > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > person's > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > handle how > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > careful while > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > They don't > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > > > is not > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > going to be > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > mostly the > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > > > about > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > The person > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > what you'd > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > for your > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > how > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > called > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > > > that's > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > combat > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > > > months. > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > > > the > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > > > The > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > > > poop > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > The > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > > > you see > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > in > > > > > > the low > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > > > high as > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > dime each > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > > > best > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > > > system. > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > > > are often > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > > > with > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > > > number. > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > > > were > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > will be > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > > > background, > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > > > which was > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > I > > > > > > was so > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > to > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > and > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > > > please > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > > > quick > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > different types > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > > > Also, > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > and > > > > > > i need > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > > > for them > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > > > the long > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > new > > > > > > tank > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51260	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give me a bit of slack on missing the point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to have ya clarify some points on the "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Donna, I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter established. I have to presume that you also still have the original established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. Naturally, as both would be sharing the available nutrients, when you remove the new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some catching up to do in getting its population up to its old level and wouldn't be quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few larger water changing in the meantime during this period. Still -- excellent! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > populated to handle. > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > repopulated from this "seeding." > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > harder > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > beliefs!.. > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > way)... > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > introduction of > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > media or > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > of an > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > filter > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > And > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > tests > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > days.... > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > additional > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > put as > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > that > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > nor > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > done > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > everyone > > else here is. > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > as such > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > instead > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > more > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > offering you > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > on > > them. > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > friendly. > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > to > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > post on > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > just > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > understanding > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > already > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > you > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > here, as > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > from > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > Best, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > allow > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > bad > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > must > > >be > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > owners > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > living waste > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > stocked. I > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > I > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > a > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > there is a > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > > > every > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > least 37 > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > > > breed > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > experience with > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > > > and most > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > > > does not > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > > > Amber, > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > culture, > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > consider > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > plants or > > > > > coral. > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > mes/3263.asp > > >p > > > >> > > > >p > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > > > dealing > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > assure that > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > person's > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > handle how > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > careful while > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > They don't > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > > > is not > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > going to be > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > mostly the > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > > > about > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > The person > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > what you'd > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > for your > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > how > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > called > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > > > that's > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > combat > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > > > months. > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > > > the > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > > > The > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > > > poop > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > The > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > > > you see > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > in > > > > > > the low > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > > > high as > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > dime each > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > > > best > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > > > system. > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > > > are often > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > > > with > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > > > number. > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > > > were > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > will be > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > > > background, > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > > > which was > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > I > > > > > > was so > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > to > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > and > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > > > please > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > > > quick > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > different types > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > > > Also, > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > and > > > > > > i need > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > > > for them > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > > > the long > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > new > > > > > > tank > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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> > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51261	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

My 5 gallon is the type that has different changing lights and no real filter. It has a tube in the center of the tank with a air bubbler that went into this tube. When the light is on the bubbles would show up that color. The new tank came with a filter its a Aqua-Tech. The people told me they just took the fish to Petsmart to be adopted out. And they gave me the tank. So I know nothing on the filter that they are using. I like the Bio wheel filters better than the carbon filters. Should I get a Bio wheel? Should I use 2 filters? And get more air bubble things? Would live plants help? I realized Petsmart did not know what they were talking about. They wanted me to buy new filters, plants, bubble thingys, fish, fish food, rocks, and other stuff to make the fish happy. They seem to be all about the money. I am all about the health of the tank and the fish. Al long time ago I had a 55 gallon long. And it was a nightmare. I had Ammonia, PH, Nitrates levels throw the roof. Then on top of that my fish came down with ICK. I remember doing water changes every other day. But I don't really remember much of what I did. I almost gave up. It was about 3 months that everything came to normal. and spending lots of money on chemicals to help the water and I thought that it would never go away. Its been about 6 years sense I had a 55 gallon. And I almost forgot how to care for it. Now I feel like I am new to this all over again. And I don't really want to be doing water changes every other day for 3 months. Is that normal? I wont mind every other 3 or 4 days. that would give me time to gather my strength to lift heavy buckets. lol. I love my fish and animals and I don't want to see anything happen to them. I want to catch everything now so i can nip this in the bud and not have to worry about my fish dying. And when my tank clears up. How many fish can I have in a 55 gallon tall? And what do i need to buy for my tank to help out with the water? Sorry for so many questions. I need to make a list of things to get. i really thank you guys for the help. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group. I never really introduced myself. this is me. I am 37. I live in Phoenix, Az. I own 6 German Shepherds 1 wolf/German shepherd 1 pitbull.. I been breeding German Shepherds for 8 years now. I own 7 fish, 2 birds, 2 bunnies and a cat. I am a stay at home mom. I love to read about genetics. I guess you can call me a nerd. lol. Well not really. I like to go off-roading. Land Rover Range Rover are awesome trucks. :) JMO. So I am a nerdy tomboy in a way. But i still like my Barbie dolls. lol.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51262	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Cindy.. to keep it simple.. Buy some prime (water conditioner) and a good test kit.. not the strips... API makes a good product. You'll be wanting to measure: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates... possibly water hardness depending upon the type of fish ya wanna keep. Beg, borrow, or steal some well established filter media or substrate from a friend or even a good LFS... (not from a big box store)... Fill your tank, treat it with prime ...a cap full for your 55. Now ya gotta decide if you want to do a fishless cycle or a fish cycle. I go with the fish. A few barbs (I personally hate them).. or without the fish some raw ammonia ya get from a hardware store... Then measure measure measure daily. Initially you should see a spike in ammonia either from what ya added or what the fish poo created... The bacteria in the borrowed/stole media/substrate will then start attacking the ammonia turning it into nitrite... Then your tests will show a decrease in ammonia and an increase in Nitrite.... Then another type of bacteria kicks in and attacks the Nitrite and turns that into Nitrate... Which gets off-loaded via water changes and/or live plant usage. Pretty soon, you'll get reading of 0 on all three. At that time your tank is cycled and a 15 percent w/c per week will suffice unless you overstock it. How to tell if you've overstocked? Testing!... Suggestion on testing?.. buy a little syringe at your local drugstore... a plastic cup of water dipped into your tank and the 3 or 4 vials.. add 5 mm of water to each vial. your test takes less than 5 minutes daily... Your tests will tell you what is happening to your tank... and fish.. and water... Once ya establish your base, post again with any problems!.. But, to save yourself time, post your results from your latest water tests... Good luck and Im' sure you'll kick butt this time around! Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 8:08:21 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help My 5 gallon is the type that has different changing lights and no real filter. It has a tube in the center of the tank with a air bubbler that went into this tube. When the light is on the bubbles would show up that color. The new tank came with a filter its a Aqua-Tech. The people told me they just took the fish to Petsmart to be adopted out. And they gave me the tank. So I know nothing on the filter that they are using. I like the Bio wheel filters better than the carbon filters. Should I get a Bio wheel? Should I use 2 filters? And get more air bubble things? Would live plants help? I realized Petsmart did not know what they were talking about. They wanted me to buy new filters, plants, bubble thingys, fish, fish food, rocks, and other stuff to make the fish happy. They seem to be all about the money. I am all about the health of the tank and the fish. Al long time ago I had a 55 gallon long. And it was a nightmare. I had Ammonia, PH, Nitrates levels throw the roof. Then on top of that my fish came down with ICK. I remember doing water changes every other day. But I don't really remember much of what I did. I almost gave up. It was about 3 months that everything came to normal. and spending lots of money on chemicals to help the water and I thought that it would never go away. Its been about 6 years sense I had a 55 gallon. And I almost forgot how to care for it. Now I feel like I am new to this all over again. And I don't really want to be doing water changes every other day for 3 months. Is that normal? I wont mind every other 3 or 4 days. that would give me time to gather my strength to lift heavy buckets. lol. I love my fish and animals and I don't want to see anything happen to them. I want to catch everything now so i can nip this in the bud and not have to worry about my fish dying. And when my tank clears up. How many fish can I have in a 55 gallon tall? And what do i need to buy for my tank to help out with the water? Sorry for so many questions. I need to make a list of things to get. i really thank you guys for the help. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group. I never really introduced myself. this is me. I am 37. I live in Phoenix, Az. I own 6 German Shepherds 1 wolf/German shepherd 1 pitbull.. I been breeding German Shepherds for 8 years now. I own 7 fish, 2 birds, 2 bunnies and a cat. I am a stay at home mom. I love to read about genetics. I guess you can call me a nerd. lol. Well not really. I like to go off-roading. Land Rover Range Rover are awesome trucks. :) JMO. So I am a nerdy tomboy in a way. But i still like my Barbie dolls. lol.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51263	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

I bow my head in shame... LOL... Missed the most important point!.. Too quick to judge perhaps!...Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:37:06 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Bill, It appears you missed one very important point. Donna said that she puts the new filter on the ESTABLISHED tank (the tank that has been running and already cycled) for two weeks to get the bacteria established from it, Then transfers this new filter to her new tank, which is ready to go to work right away. All kinds of organic waste in the established tank, just waiting for a new filter to get populated. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Donna.. I'm a bit confused... New tank, new filter.... no ammonia, no nitrites, > > no nitrates... no fish.. no cycle... I would think you would experience the > start of the cycle once ya introduced the fish. Perhaps I'm missing something. > Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 6:14:29 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > Hi Bill, > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > populated to handle. > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > repopulated from this "seeding." > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > harder > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > beliefs!.. > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > way)... > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > introduction of > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > media or > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > of an > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > filter > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > And > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > tests > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > days.... > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > additional > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > put as > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > that > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > nor > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > done > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > everyone > > else here is. > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > as such > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > instead > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > more > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > offering you > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > on > > them. > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > friendly. > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > to > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > post on > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > just > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > understanding > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > already > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > you > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > here, as > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > from > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > Best, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > allow > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > bad > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > must > > >be > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > owners > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > living waste > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > stocked. I > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > I > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > a > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > there is a > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > > > every > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > least 37 > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > > > breed > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > experience with > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > > > and most > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > > > does not > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > > > Amber, > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > culture, > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > consider > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > plants or > > > > > coral. > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > mes/3263.asp > > >p > > > >> > > > >p > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > > > dealing > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > assure that > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > person's > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > handle how > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > careful while > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > They don't > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > > > is not > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > going to be > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > mostly the > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > > > about > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > The person > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > what you'd > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > for your > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > how > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > called > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > > > that's > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > combat > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > > > months. > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > > > the > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > > > The > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > > > poop > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > The > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > > > you see > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > in > > > > > > the low > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > > > high as > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > dime each > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > > > best > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > > > system. > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > > > are often > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > > > with > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > > > number. > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > > > were > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > will be > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > > > background, > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > > > which was > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > I > > > > > > was so > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > to > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > and > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > > > please > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > > > quick > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > different types > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > > > Also, > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > and > > > > > > i need > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > > > for them > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > > > the long > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > new > > > > > > tank > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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> > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51264	From: Ray	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Bill, I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but not to make you feel worse today, have another cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon tanks and their related ammonia contents. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I > didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give me a bit of slack on missing the > point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to have ya clarify some points on the > "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the > bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Donna, > > I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't > been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > Naturally, as both would be sharing the available nutrients, when you remove the > new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > catching up to do in getting its population up to its old level and wouldn't be > quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > larger water changing in the meantime during this period. Still -- excellent! > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > > populated to handle. > > > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > > repopulated from this "seeding." > > > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > > harder > > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > > beliefs!.. > > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > > way)... > > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > > introduction of > > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > > media or > > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > > of an > > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > filter > > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > > And > > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > > tests > > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > > days.... > > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > > additional > > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > > put as > > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > > that > > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > > nor > > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > > done > > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > > everyone > > > else here is. > > > > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > > as such > > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > > instead > > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > > more > > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > > offering you > > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > > on > > > them. > > > > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > > friendly. > > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > > to > > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > > post on > > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > > just > > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > > understanding > > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > > already > > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > you > > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > > here, as > > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > > from > > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > > allow > > > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > > bad > > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > > become > > > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > > must > > > >be > > > > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > > owners > > > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > > that is > > > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > > frozen). > > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > > to. > > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > > living waste > > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > > stocked. I > > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > > buggy > > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > > I > > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > > a > > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > > is > > > > > > every > > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > > least 37 > > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > > We > > > > > > breed > > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > > experience with > > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > long > > > > > > and most > > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > > water > > > > > > does not > > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > > me, > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > > culture, > > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > > consider > > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > > plants or > > > > > > coral. > > > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > > mes/3263.asp > > > >p > > > > >> > > > > >p > > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > > when > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > > assure that > > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > > person's > > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > > handle how > > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > > careful while > > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > > filters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > > They don't > > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > > poop > > > > > > is not > > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > > going to be > > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > > mostly the > > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > > going > > > > > > about > > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > > The person > > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > > for your > > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > > the > > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > > such > > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > > it), > > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > > green > > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > > any of > > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > > of, > > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > > large > > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > > going > > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > > fish). > > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > > it > > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > > easily > > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > > called, > > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > > year > > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > > how > > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > > they > > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > > the > > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > > filter > > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > > we > > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > > called > > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > > product > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > > combat > > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > > six > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > > and > > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > > adhere to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > > per > > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > > goldfish, > > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > > gouramis. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > > whose > > > > > > > poop > > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > > The > > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > > fishes at > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > > water) or > > > > > > > you see > > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > > this > > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > > in > > > > > > > the low > > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > > go > > > > > > > high as > > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > > dime each > > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > > your > > > > > > best > > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > > the > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > > other > > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > > filters > > > > > > > are often > > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > > isn't, > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > > gallon > > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > > upper > > > > > > > number. > > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > > but > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > > They > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > > food, > > > > > > > background, > > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > > a > > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > > $60 > > > > > > > which was > > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > > I > > > > > > > was so > > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > > to > > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > > and > > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > > so I > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > > newbie > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > > the > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > > vacuum, > > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > > want > > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > > different types > > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > > works. > > > > > > Also, > > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > > and > > > > > > > i need > > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > > babies > > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > > place > > > > > > > for them > > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > > for > > > > > > > the long > > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > > and > > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > > new > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > > individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51265	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. Thank you for the advice.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   Cindy.. to keep it simple.. Buy some prime (water conditioner) and a good test kit.. not the strips... API makes a good product. You'll be wanting to measure: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates... possibly water hardness depending upon the type of fish ya wanna keep. Beg, borrow, or steal some well established filter media or substrate from a friend or even a good LFS... (not from a big box store)... Fill your tank, treat it with prime ...a cap full for your 55. Now ya gotta decide if you want to do a fishless cycle or a fish cycle. I go with the fish. A few barbs (I personally hate them).. or without the fish some raw ammonia ya get from a hardware store... Then measure measure measure daily. Initially you should see a spike in ammonia either from what ya added or what the fish poo created... The bacteria in the borrowed/stole media/substrate will then start attacking the ammonia turning it into nitrite... Then your tests will show a decrease in ammonia and an increase in Nitrite.... Then another type of bacteria kicks in and attacks the Nitrite and turns that into Nitrate... Which gets off-loaded via water changes and/or live plant usage. Pretty soon, you'll get reading of 0 on all three. At that time your tank is cycled and a 15 percent w/c per week will suffice unless you overstock it. How to tell if you've overstocked? Testing!... Suggestion on testing?.. buy a little syringe at your local drugstore... a plastic cup of water dipped into your tank and the 3 or 4 vials.. add 5 mm of water to each vial. your test takes less than 5 minutes daily... Your tests will tell you what is happening to your tank... and fish.. and water... Once ya establish your base, post again with any problems!.. But, to save yourself time, post your results from your latest water tests... Good luck and Im' sure you'll kick butt this time around! Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 8:08:21 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help My 5 gallon is the type that has different changing lights and no real filter. It has a tube in the center of the tank with a air bubbler that went into this tube. When the light is on the bubbles would show up that color. The new tank came with a filter its a Aqua-Tech. The people told me they just took the fish to Petsmart to be adopted out. And they gave me the tank. So I know nothing on the filter that they are using. I like the Bio wheel filters better than the carbon filters. Should I get a Bio wheel? Should I use 2 filters? And get more air bubble things? Would live plants help? I realized Petsmart did not know what they were talking about. They wanted me to buy new filters, plants, bubble thingys, fish, fish food, rocks, and other stuff to make the fish happy. They seem to be all about the money. I am all about the health of the tank and the fish. Al long time ago I had a 55 gallon long. And it was a nightmare. I had Ammonia, PH, Nitrates levels throw the roof. Then on top of that my fish came down with ICK. I remember doing water changes every other day. But I don't really remember much of what I did. I almost gave up. It was about 3 months that everything came to normal. and spending lots of money on chemicals to help the water and I thought that it would never go away. Its been about 6 years sense I had a 55 gallon. And I almost forgot how to care for it. Now I feel like I am new to this all over again. And I don't really want to be doing water changes every other day for 3 months. Is that normal? I wont mind every other 3 or 4 days. that would give me time to gather my strength to lift heavy buckets. lol. I love my fish and animals and I don't want to see anything happen to them. I want to catch everything now so i can nip this in the bud and not have to worry about my fish dying. And when my tank clears up. How many fish can I have in a 55 gallon tall? And what do i need to buy for my tank to help out with the water? Sorry for so many questions. I need to make a list of things to get. i really thank you guys for the help. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group. I never really introduced myself. this is me. I am 37. I live in Phoenix, Az. I own 6 German Shepherds 1 wolf/German shepherd 1 pitbull.. I been breeding German Shepherds for 8 years now. I own 7 fish, 2 birds, 2 bunnies and a cat. I am a stay at home mom. I love to read about genetics. I guess you can call me a nerd. lol. Well not really. I like to go off-roading. Land Rover Range Rover are awesome trucks. :) JMO. So I am a nerdy tomboy in a way. But i still like my Barbie dolls. lol.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51266	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Your post is what I was referring to... going from 40 to 120 with the same number of fish.. dilution of the ammonia given off.. versus not considering the dilution of bacteria... Hence status quo... Hey.. I've got to run off and go build a deck on no sleep!... Yak wid ya later. Tks for all the advice you've tended. Oh.. before i head on out... Someone gave me a new light fixture he wasn't using.. On my 1 month 125g, I was using a pair of 48" 6500K and a single 20" 6500K fixture with a ton of plants in there... The fixture he gave me had a 10K bulb in there and I didn't alter my light durations.. (18 hrs)... Yep.. algae bloom .... 3 33% w/cs.. no change.. 60 hrs of being covered with taped on newspaper and dark towels over the hood area and a slight improvement... I've now replaced the newsprint with a dark - thick blanket and will iso the tank for another 48 hrs. Good idea or not.. or have ya some better advice? Bill p.s. I should be back on in about 5.5 hrs. Again, thanks for all the "food for thought".. Bill Still in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:24:00 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Bill, I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but not to make you feel worse today, have another cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon tanks and their related ammonia contents. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I > didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give me a bit of slack on missing the > > point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to have ya clarify some points on >the > > "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the > bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Donna, > > I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't > been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > Naturally, as both would be sharing the available nutrients, when you remove >the > > new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > catching up to do in getting its population up to its old level and wouldn't be > > quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > larger water changing in the meantime during this period. Still -- excellent! > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > > populated to handle. > > > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > > repopulated from this "seeding." > > > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > > harder > > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > > beliefs!.. > > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > > way)... > > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > > introduction of > > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > > media or > > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > > of an > > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > filter > > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > > And > > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > > tests > > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > > days.... > > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > > additional > > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > > put as > > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > > that > > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > > nor > > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > > done > > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > > everyone > > > else here is. > > > > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > > as such > > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > > instead > > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > > more > > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > > offering you > > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > > on > > > them. > > > > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > > friendly. > > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > > to > > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > > post on > > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > > just > > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > > understanding > > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > > already > > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > you > > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > > here, as > > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > > from > > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > > allow > > > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > > bad > > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > > become > > > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > > must > > > >be > > > > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > > owners > > > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > > that is > > > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > > frozen). > > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > > to. > > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > > living waste > > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > > stocked. I > > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > > buggy > > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > > I > > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > > a > > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > > is > > > > > > every > > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > > least 37 > > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > > We > > > > > > breed > > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > > experience with > > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > long > > > > > > and most > > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > > water > > > > > > does not > > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > > me, > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > > culture, > > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > > consider > > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > > plants or > > > > > > coral. > > > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > > mes/3263.asp > > > >p > > > > >> > > > > >p > > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > > when > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > > assure that > > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > > person's > > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > > handle how > > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > > careful while > > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > > filters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > > They don't > > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > > poop > > > > > > is not > > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > > going to be > > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > > mostly the > > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > > going > > > > > > about > > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > > The person > > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > > for your > > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > > the > > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > > such > > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > > it), > > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > > green > > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > > any of > > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > > of, > > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > > large > > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > > going > > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > > fish). > > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > > it > > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > > easily > > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > > called, > > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > > year > > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > > how > > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > > they > > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > > the > > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > > filter > > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > > we > > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > > called > > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > > product > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > > combat > > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > > six > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > > and > > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > > adhere to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > > per > > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > > goldfish, > > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > > gouramis. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > > whose > > > > > > > poop > > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > > The > > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > > fishes at > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > > water) or > > > > > > > you see > > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > > this > > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > > in > > > > > > > the low > > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > > go > > > > > > > high as > > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > > dime each > > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > > your > > > > > > best > > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > > the > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > > other > > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > > filters > > > > > > > are often > > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > > isn't, > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > > gallon > > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > > upper > > > > > > > number. > > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > > but > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > > They > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > > food, > > > > > > > background, > > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > > a > > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > > $60 > > > > > > > which was > > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > > I > > > > > > > was so > > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > > to > > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > > and > > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > > so I > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > > newbie > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > > the > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > > vacuum, > > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > > want > > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > > different types > > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > > works. > > > > > > Also, > > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > > and > > > > > > > i need > > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > > babies > > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > > place > > > > > > > for them > > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > > for > > > > > > > the long > > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > > and > > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > > new > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > > individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51267	From: Karlene	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Hey, I can actually answer one of your questions. LFS is Local Fish Store - as opposed to a PetCo/Petsmart kinda place. ~Karlene, learning along with you! On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not > be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if > maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is > established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't > wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a > few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? > Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. > This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. > Thank you for the advice. > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51268	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Refresher on ottos

Okay, my 20 gallon is back up. So far, all I have is a few Cory Catfish and two Ottos Can anyone remind me what Ottos like to eat? I got some Algae Wafers - so far they are popular with the Cories. I have some Zuchini, but do they like it raw? or blanched? I cannot recall. I'm feeling a bit rusty Thanks, Gail SLC, UT

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51269	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Karlene.. In a month or so, you'll be giving us advice. Us old dogs are always learning sumptin new from ya youngun's... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:39:18 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help Hey, I can actually answer one of your questions. LFS is Local Fish Store - as opposed to a PetCo/Petsmart kinda place. ~Karlene, learning along with you! On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not > be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if > maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is > established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't > wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a > few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? > Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. > This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. > Thank you for the advice. > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51270	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Sorry.. We tend to get used to using acronyms... Local Fish Store.. meaning an owner maintained store rather than a big box store that gives someone an hour or so of training and then plunks them in the fish department. Your carbon filter isn't doing much for you other than maybe pulling some mineral content out of the water column and if you ever have to medicate will even remove the meds!... Bottled water?... Not needed unless you have really weird and wacky water conditions coming out of your tap. For W/c's (water changes).. .just fill a bucket from your faucet... I then add a bit of Prime and let it set for about 15 minutes. Some don't even wait for the 15 minutes.. add her back in. If you've multiple buckets to add, some don't even add the Prime until the w/c is completed. They just dose it at the end. This one might get a rise out of some but that's ok... Some folks I know add a capfull (50 gallon dose) weekly to their tanks. I've never heard anyone say that too much Prime is bad so maybe we'll see. Hit us back with any and all questions!.. oh.. before I close this.. "Going to the store to pick up a few things"... what things are you looking to pick up? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:59:45 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. Thank you for the advice.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Cindy.. to keep it simple.. Buy some prime (water conditioner) and a good test kit.. not the strips... API makes a good product. You'll be wanting to measure: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates... possibly water hardness depending upon the type of fish ya wanna keep. Beg, borrow, or steal some well established filter media or substrate from a friend or even a good LFS... (not from a big box store)... Fill your tank, treat it with prime ...a cap full for your 55. Now ya gotta decide if you want to do a fishless cycle or a fish cycle. I go with the fish. A few barbs (I personally hate them).. or without the fish some raw ammonia ya get from a hardware store... Then measure measure measure daily. Initially you should see a spike in ammonia either from what ya added or what the fish poo created... The bacteria in the borrowed/stole media/substrate will then start attacking the ammonia turning it into nitrite... Then your tests will show a decrease in ammonia and an increase in Nitrite.... Then another type of bacteria kicks in and attacks the Nitrite and turns that into Nitrate... Which gets off-loaded via water changes and/or live plant usage. Pretty soon, you'll get reading of 0 on all three. At that time your tank is cycled and a 15 percent w/c per week will suffice unless you overstock it. How to tell if you've overstocked? Testing!... Suggestion on testing?.. buy a little syringe at your local drugstore... a plastic cup of water dipped into your tank and the 3 or 4 vials.. add 5 mm of water to each vial. your test takes less than 5 minutes daily... Your tests will tell you what is happening to your tank... and fish.. and water... Once ya establish your base, post again with any problems!.. But, to save yourself time, post your results from your latest water tests... Good luck and Im' sure you'll kick butt this time around! Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 8:08:21 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help My 5 gallon is the type that has different changing lights and no real filter. It has a tube in the center of the tank with a air bubbler that went into this tube. When the light is on the bubbles would show up that color. The new tank came with a filter its a Aqua-Tech. The people told me they just took the fish to Petsmart to be adopted out. And they gave me the tank. So I know nothing on the filter that they are using. I like the Bio wheel filters better than the carbon filters. Should I get a Bio wheel? Should I use 2 filters? And get more air bubble things? Would live plants help? I realized Petsmart did not know what they were talking about. They wanted me to buy new filters, plants, bubble thingys, fish, fish food, rocks, and other stuff to make the fish happy. They seem to be all about the money. I am all about the health of the tank and the fish. Al long time ago I had a 55 gallon long. And it was a nightmare. I had Ammonia, PH, Nitrates levels throw the roof. Then on top of that my fish came down with ICK. I remember doing water changes every other day. But I don't really remember much of what I did. I almost gave up. It was about 3 months that everything came to normal. and spending lots of money on chemicals to help the water and I thought that it would never go away. Its been about 6 years sense I had a 55 gallon. And I almost forgot how to care for it. Now I feel like I am new to this all over again. And I don't really want to be doing water changes every other day for 3 months. Is that normal? I wont mind every other 3 or 4 days. that would give me time to gather my strength to lift heavy buckets. lol. I love my fish and animals and I don't want to see anything happen to them. I want to catch everything now so i can nip this in the bud and not have to worry about my fish dying. And when my tank clears up. How many fish can I have in a 55 gallon tall? And what do i need to buy for my tank to help out with the water? Sorry for so many questions. I need to make a list of things to get. i really thank you guys for the help. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group. I never really introduced myself. this is me. I am 37. I live in Phoenix, Az. I own 6 German Shepherds 1 wolf/German shepherd 1 pitbull.. I been breeding German Shepherds for 8 years now. I own 7 fish, 2 birds, 2 bunnies and a cat. I am a stay at home mom. I love to read about genetics. I guess you can call me a nerd. lol. Well not really. I like to go off-roading. Land Rover Range Rover are awesome trucks. :) JMO. So I am a nerdy tomboy in a way. But i still like my Barbie dolls. lol.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51271	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You made mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what product that was? There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a tank, but in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be added all at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as that means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which causes die off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the tank to compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can cause a multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading the test results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be difficult to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial supplement. Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine where your water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics.    > > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51272	From: Alisa	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Oops

I think I am in the wrong group. I have only gold fish in my 29 gallon tank. LOL Alisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51273	From: haecklers	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: Refresher on ottos

The LFS lady, who had the fattest Ottos I've ever seen in a pet store, said they only eat zucchini if it's raw. I tried giving mine some but they aren't interested - I guess there's enough algae for them. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming if you see long poos coming out of them then they're getting enough to eat. I've read they won't eat algae wafers. My cories eat them, but their favorite is sinking shrimp pellets, like Omega One brand's. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Okay, my 20 gallon is back up. > So far, all I have is a few Cory Catfish and two Ottos > > Can anyone remind me what Ottos like to eat? I got some Algae Wafers - so far they are popular with the Cories. I have some Zuchini, but do they like it raw? or blanched? I cannot recall. I'm feeling a bit rusty > > Thanks, > Gail > SLC, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51274	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: Oops

Nope your ok, I only have goldfish as well. ________________________________ From: Alisa <pinkfawn209@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 12:11 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Oops   I think I am in the wrong group. I have only gold fish in my 29 gallon tank. LOL Alisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51275	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: More Newbie Questions

I used pea gravel in my walstad tanks, but I find that smaller is better. Pea gravel is just a little too large, food gets stuck between the pebbles. I mix my pea gravel with crushed coral gravel as well, to keep my soft water from getting TOO soft and causing a pH crash. I've never baked my soil before using it, but I can't see that as being a bad thing to get rid of any critters in the soil. I don't have any pool filter sand here in town (I'm in Alaska and we don't have a lot of pools, lol), but I will keep my eye out for it if/when I set up another walstad tank. One of my 55 gallons needs a complete tear down and some new silicone sometime this year, so perhaps I can get my hands on something better than pea gravel this time around. Thanks for the tips Bill. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:52 PM, Bill wrote: > > Amber Im a Walstad fan also but I do use sand to cover my soil. It is a > specific type of sand called Swimming pool filter sand. (PFS) The > diameter of > the grains are .45 - .55 cm. This size sand allows for the passage of > water/ox > to the soil. Play sand and concrete sand are finer and will lock out a > water > exchange. The pool filter sand is used to filter the water as it > passes thru it > within the pool filter. The only other thing I do is to bake my soil > in batches > before I place it in the tank. Bring it up to 190 degrees for about > 1/2 hour to > rid the soil of any potential critters. DO NOT GO higher! I've been > warned as > it can create some toxins within the soil. Plus it would kill off most > of the > bacterial advantages of using soil. One other thing, buy the cheapest > topsoil > avail at your local big box store. They will not contain any > additives. ie. > ferts. The label should state no additives. Cost is about 2.00 which > is enough > to do a std. 55 gal tank. The pool filter sand here is 10.00 for a 50 > lb bag of > which you'll need about 35 lbs to cover to a depth of 1.5 - 2 inches > of that > 55g. Bill in Va. > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:41:07 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: More Newbie Questions > > I also have Walstad tanks, but I used organic soil in my tanks (not > clay). I'm assuming from the description that the clay is the only > substrate in their tank, but I'm not certain. In my tank you add about 2 > inches of soil (make sure to let it air out to get rid of any ammonia in > the soil), then you cover it with about an inch of small gravel (smaller > is better, but sand is too small, try to get something around the size > of a pea or slightly smaller), then you add water. When adding the water > put a plate on top of the soil and aim the water onto the plate so it > doesn't stir up the gravel/soil and make a muddy mess of your water. > I used Black Gold potting soil for my tanks. The only problem to this is > after several years you tend to have to break down the tank and set it > up with fresh dirt again, but I haven't gotten to that point with my > tanks yet. The oldest one I have is about 1 1/2 years old now, and > growing plants like crazy. I enjoy Walstad tanks because it's a very > natural look (plants and fish) but doesn't require expensive fertilizers > (such as CO2 injection). I use filters for my Walstad tanks and clean > them typically weekly (at most every 2 weeks on my less stocked tanks). > > Here are some instructions on setting up a walstad tank with picture > examples. > http://thegab.org/Plants/setting-up-a-walstad-natural-planted-tank.html > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 1:25 PM, Karlene wrote: > > > > Thanks for the info! > > > > So you put the clay down and gravel on top of that? I don't think > I'd like > > the look of just plain dirt (or clay) in the aquarium. > > > > I'll also check out Sweet Aquatics! > > > > ~Karlene > > > > On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:29 AM, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > I've started using clay kitty litter as the substrate in my planted > > tanks (I > > got it at Wal-Mart - there's a super-cheap brand that is pure clay > > pellets). > > It holds and releases the right nutrients to the plant roots until the > > fish > > waste builds up and breaks down to feed the plants. > > > > -- > > ~Karlene > > TarKom Labradors > > www.tarkom.com > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51276	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: New Tank Threads

I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and entertaining - hard to beat. In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant according to the manufacturers direction. Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will not be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction are welcome as well. I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows and my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and dragon goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel threatened by any constructive advice offered here LOL Cheers, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51277	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest form of the list. I normally get messages which are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and trailers which I have been told to cut out of my posts. Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no desire to read all that over and over again. So, I just delete them. I may be missing something but there were some rules you guys had about being short and to the point and cut out bottom mess. Am I wrong? Charles H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill, I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but not to make you feel worse today, have another cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon tanks and their related ammonia contents. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I > didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give >me a bit of slack on missing the > point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to >have ya clarify some points on the > "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the > bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Donna, > > I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't > been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > Naturally, as both would be sharing the >available nutrients, when you remove the > new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > catching up to do in getting its population up >to its old level and wouldn't be > quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > larger water changing in the meantime during >this period. Still -- excellent! > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > > populated to handle. > > > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new >filter in a newly set up tank, but > > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > > repopulated from this "seeding." > > > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed >the ability to promote this when > > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in >your established aquarium and you > > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's >filter media to a new tank, you can > > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > > the now at any one time as compared to the >higher concentration of this same > > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > > especially dangerous though in your case, >provided you did adequate PWC's to > > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > > harder > > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > > beliefs!.. > > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > > way)... > > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > > introduction of > > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > > media or > > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > > of an > > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > filter > > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > > And > > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > > tests > > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > > days.... > > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > > additional > > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > > > I approved your message for posting only >because I preferred to ask you in > > > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > > put as > > > much consideration into it. I've read over >the posts of Amber's and Bill's > > that > > > you just replied to and in all fairness I >can't see them having bad advice > > nor > > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > > done > > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > > everyone > > > else here is. > > > > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > > as such > > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > > instead > > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > > more > > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > > offering you > > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > > on > > > them. > > > > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > > friendly. > > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with >this, to please keep an open mind > > to > > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > > post on > > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before >posting your below message, which I > > > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > > just > > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure >to these other products. You're > > > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > > understanding > > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > > already > > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > you > > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > > here, as > > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > > from > > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her >friends and she have chosen not to > > allow > > > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > > bad > > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > > become > > > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > > must > > > >be > > > > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > > owners > > > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have >a customer that want's instant > > > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > > that is > > > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > > frozen). > > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to >you, since I don't know all the > > > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > > to. > > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can >explain it better than I can. It > > > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > > living waste > > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > > stocked. I > > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > > buggy > > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it >was expired before I bought it, > > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been >proven to work from many people, > > I > > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on >fish keeping have changed quite > > a > > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I >appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > > is > > > > > > every > > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > > least 37 > > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > > We > > > > > > breed > > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > > experience with > > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > long > > > > > > and most > > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > > water > > > > > > does not > > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > > me, > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > > culture, > > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > > consider > > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > > plants or > > > > > > coral. > > > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > > mes/3263.asp > > > >p > > > > >> > > > > >p > > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > > when > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > > assure that > > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > > person's > > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > > handle how > > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 >product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > > careful while > > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to >specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > > filters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > > They don't > > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > > poop > > > > > > is not > > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > > going to be > > > > > > different ways that people and >experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > > mostly the > > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > > going > > > > > > about > > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > > The person > > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the >other. The best way to figure out > > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > > for your > > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > > the > > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > > such > > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > > it), > > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > > green > > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > > any of > > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > > of, > > > > > > people often over stock their tanks >and cause health issues to their > > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When >stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > > large > > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > > going > > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > > fish). > > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > > it > > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > > easily > > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > > called, > > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the >only proven product to immediately > > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > > year > > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically >improved it somehow I don't see > > how > > > > > > it's going to do anything now. >Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > > they > > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see >them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > > the > > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > > filter > > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > > we > > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > > called > > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > > product > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > > combat > > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > > six > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > > and > > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > > adhere to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > > per > > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > > goldfish, > > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > > gouramis. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > > whose > > > > > > > poop > > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter >can't possibly micro-skim it out. > > The > > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > > fishes at > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > > water) or > > > > > > > you see > > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > > this > > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and >even if your test strip says it's > > in > > > > > > > the low > > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > > go > > > > > > > high as > > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > > dime each > > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > > your > > > > > > best > > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > > the > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > > other > > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > > filters > > > > > > > are often > > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > > isn't, > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > > gallon > > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > > within reason. Still, if >overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > > upper > > > > > > > number. > > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, >tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > > but > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather >than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > > They > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank >however by the end of the week they > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > > food, > > > > > > > background, > > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > > a > > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > > $60 > > > > > > > which was > > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so >my mother-in-law got it for me. > > I > > > > > > > was so > > > > > > > excited when i found it because I >knew that's what I really wanted > > to > > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still >have to get it home and set up > > and > > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > > so I > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > > newbie > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > > the > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > > vacuum, > > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > > want > > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > > different types > > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > > works. > > > > > > Also, > > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too >much about live plants in a tank > > and > > > > > > > i need > > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in >there because I will be putting > > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > > babies > > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > > place > > > > > > > for them > > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > > for > > > > > > > the long > > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > > and > > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any >advice regarding the care of my > > new > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by >clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages >on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > > individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > ><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to >receive the digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups >emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking >on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > ><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> >for the No E-Mail option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: >> >> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for >> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I >> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give >>me a bit of slack on missing the >> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... >> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to >>have ya clarify some points on the >> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the >> ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the >> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> >> >> Donna, >> >> I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't >> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter >> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original >> established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. >> Naturally, as both would be sharing the >>available nutrients, when you remove the >> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some >> catching up to do in getting its population up >>to its old level and wouldn't be >> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > > larger water changing in the meantime during >this period. Still -- excellent! >> >> Ray >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: >> > >> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the >> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! >> > >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >> > Behalf Of Ray >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Bill, >> > >> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid >> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the >>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. >> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never >> > overstocked) complement of fish to your >>aquarium the next day. The bacteria >> > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short >> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. >> > >> > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, >> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your >> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- >> > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is >> > populated to handle. > > > >> > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter >> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new >>filter in a newly set up tank, but >> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a >> > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many >> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very >> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting >> > repopulated from this "seeding." >> > >> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed >>the ability to promote this when >> > you stated, "by the introduction of an >>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your >> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the >> > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that >> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and >> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank >> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a >> > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that >> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not >> > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when >> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. >> > >> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in >>your established aquarium and you >> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's >>filter media to a new tank, you can >> > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet >> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of >>the two different tanks also has >> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring >> > established filter media. While a colony of >>nitrifying bacteria may already >> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon >> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of >> > their waste products in ppm (parts per >>million) would be only 1/3 as great, >> > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to >> > the now at any one time as compared to the >>higher concentration of this same >> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, >>with these same 12 fish, even with >> > moving the entire established filter to this >>new tank (and even if you used >> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new >> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some >> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as >>much organic waste per part of >> > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria >> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > >> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already >> > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their >> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 >> > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, >> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not >> > especially dangerous though in your case, >>provided you did adequate PWC's to >> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. >> > >> > Ray >> > >> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , >> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The >>liveliness just forces us to work a bit >> > harder >> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own >> > beliefs!.. >> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored >> > way)... >> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the >> > introduction of >> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter >> > media or >> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a >>"BALANCED" level by the introduction >> > of an >> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. >> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > > filter >> > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... >>the introduction of 10 tets... >> > And >> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few >> > tests >> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 >> > days.... >> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an >> > additional >> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of >> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. >> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> >> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM >> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> > > >> > > >> > > Hi again, Livin, >> > > >> > > I approved your message for posting only >>because I preferred to ask you in >> > >> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not >> > put as >> > > much consideration into it. I've read over >>the posts of Amber's and Bill's >> > that >> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I >>can't see them having bad advice >> > nor >> > > being rude -- but only offering their >>opinions, as are you. As I just got >> > done >> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as >> > everyone >> > > else here is. >> > > >> > > >> > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it >> > as such >> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you >> > instead >> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn >> > more >> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done >> > offering you >> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- >>before you make you final decisions >> > on >> > > them. >> > > >> > > >> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and >> > friendly. >> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with >>this, to please keep an open mind >> > to >> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another >> > post on >> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before >>posting your below message, which I >> > >> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. >>Know that I will though, and again >> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it >> > just >> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure >>to these other products. You're >> > >> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully >> > understanding >> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you >> > already >> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > > you >> > > don't know the principles behind them. >> > > >> > > >> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration >> > here, as >> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may >>pick them apart, or we may learn >> > from >> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > >> > > Ray >> > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her >>friends and she have chosen not to >> > allow >> > > > >> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, >> > bad >> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool >> > > >bullies. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. >> > > > >> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who >>has come to share, befriend and >> > become >> > > >> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ________________________________ >> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > >> > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It >> > must >> > > >be >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I >>know of two specialty fish store > > > owners >> > > > >> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they >>have a customer that want's instant >> > >> > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product >> > that is >> > > >> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > >> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped >> > > > overnight and kept within a certain >>temperature range (so in the winter >> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's >> > frozen). >> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's >>too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't >> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to >>you, since I don't know all the >> > >> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like >> > to. >> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can >>explain it better than I can. It >> > >> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated >> > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but >> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown >> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you >> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this >> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. >> > > > >> > > > Amber >> > > > >> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No >> > > > > living waste >> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first >> > > > > stocked. I >> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and >> > buggy >> > > > > cocktails being sold. >> > > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> >> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM >> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > > >> > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did >> > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it >>was expired before I bought it, >> > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it >> > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been >>proven to work from many people, > > > I >> > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. >> > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an >> > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on >>fish keeping have changed quite >> > a >> > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I >>first bought a tank no one knew >> > > > > about cycling it first. >> > > > > >> > > > > Amber >> > > > > >> > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > With all due respect, although I >>appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, >> > > > > > there is a >> > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a >>territorial tank! Lol. My opinion >> > is >> > > > > > every >> > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at >> > > > > least 37 >> > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. >> > We >> > > > > > breed >> > > > > > many species. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my >> > > > > > experience with >> > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic >>product. Wasting money on a nutrifying >> > > > > > (nutritious >> > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried >> > > > > > bacteria, which >> > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > > long >> > > > > > and most >> > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When >> > water >> > > > > > does not >> > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell >> > me, >> > > > > > Amber, >> > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a >>good, solid seed than with a live >> > > > > > culture, >> > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please >> > > > > > consider >> > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, >> > > > > plants or >> > > > > > coral. >> > > >> > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy >> > mes/3263.asp >> > > >p >> > > > >> >> > > > >p >> > > > > >p >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but >> > when >> > > > > > dealing >> > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to >> > > > > > assure that >> > > > > > they do not overstock. A species >>list per gallon, would be far more >> > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day >>we can know what each and every >> > > > > > person's >> > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can >> > > > > > handle how >> > > > > > many of which fishes. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 >>product for some plants. Keeping Java >> > > > > > Moss, and >> > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very >> > > > > > careful while >> > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to >>specific areas, logs and used on >> > > > > > overhangs, >> > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB >> > filters. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never >>unless you want to kill your fish. >> > > > > > They don't >> > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The >> > poop >> > > > > > is not >> > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always >> > > > > > going to be >> > > > > > different ways that people and >>experts do the same things, achieving >> > > > > > mostly the >> > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of >> > going >> > > > > > about >> > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit >>longer, but works better for me. >> > > > > > The person >> > > > > > asked for advice. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > No one way will be better than the >>other. The best way to figure out >> > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > > like to do is to read all the >responses, taking out what works best >> > > > > > for your >> > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if >>you do divide this tank in two, >> > the >> > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> >> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> >> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > > > >> > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, >> > such >> > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for >> > it), >> > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty >> > green >> > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in >> > any of >> > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned >> > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out >> > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find >>other types of low light plants. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid >> > of, >> > > > > > people often over stock their tanks >>and cause health issues to their > > > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When >stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick >> > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get >> > large >> > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are >> > going >> > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller >> > fish). >> > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank >>you should either fishless cycle >> > it >> > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take >> > easily >> > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product >> > called, >> > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the >>only proven product to immediately >> > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a >> > year >> > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically >>improved it somehow I don't see >> > how >> > > > > > it's going to do anything now. >>Nitrifying bacteria require water and >> > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form >> > they >> > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't >>see them as doing any good myself. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Amber >> > > > > > >> > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi Chloe, >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to >>purchase a CO2 product to infuse >> > the >> > > > > > > plants and >> > > > > > > water with. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately >> > filter >> > > > > > > each side, >> > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. >> > > > > > > Dividers, with >> > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, >> > we >> > > > > > > get algae >> > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month >>before adding fish. Put in a product >> > > > > called >> > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by <br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51278	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads

Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your fish over to the new tank? I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. Amber On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > entertaining - hard to beat. > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant according > to the manufacturers direction. > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will not > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > are welcome as well. > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows and > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and dragon > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel threatened by > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > Cheers, > Clare > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51279	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

That post thread just got really long winded, and I think people were too excited and forgot to cut out the excess stuff at the bottom. Sorry for the excess spam Charles. Did you change yourself to digest or did it somehow happen when you weren't looking? Moderators have access to change it, but I don't see why one of them would have changed your preferences without your request. Amber On 5/3/2011 8:48 AM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest > form of the list. I normally get messages which > are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days > the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and > even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and > trailers which I have been told to cut out of my > posts. > > Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long > winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no > desire to read all that over and over again. So, > I just delete them. I may be missing something > but there were some rules you guys had about > being short and to the point and cut out bottom > mess. > > Am I wrong? > > Charles H > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Bill, > > I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned > about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank > goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but > not to make you feel worse today, have another > cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not > mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered > all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this > morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I > talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon > tanks and their related ammonia contents. > > Ray > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51280	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

Charles are you able to access your memebership settings to change back to individuals messages? mike g -----Original Message----- From: charles@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:48 am Subject: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest form of the list. I normally get messages which are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and trailers which I have been told to cut out of my posts. Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no desire to read all that over and over again. So, I just delete them. I may be missing something but there were some rules you guys had about being short and to the point and cut out bottom mess. Am I wrong? Charles H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill, I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but not to make you feel worse today, have another cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon tanks and their related ammonia contents. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I > didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give >me a bit of slack on missing the > point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to >have ya clarify some points on the > "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the > bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > Donna, > > I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't > been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > Naturally, as both would be sharing the >available nutrients, when you remove the > new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > catching up to do in getting its population up >to its old level and wouldn't be > quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > larger water changing in the meantime during >this period. Still -- excellent! > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > > > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > > populated to handle. > > > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new >filter in a newly set up tank, but > > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > > repopulated from this "seeding." > > > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed >the ability to promote this when > > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in >your established aquarium and you > > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's >filter media to a new tank, you can > > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > > the now at any one time as compared to the >higher concentration of this same > > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > > especially dangerous though in your case, >provided you did adequate PWC's to > > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > > harder > > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > > beliefs!.. > > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > > way)... > > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > > introduction of > > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > > media or > > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > > of an > > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > filter > > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > > And > > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > > tests > > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > > days.... > > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > > additional > > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > > > I approved your message for posting only >because I preferred to ask you in > > > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > > put as > > > much consideration into it. I've read over >the posts of Amber's and Bill's > > that > > > you just replied to and in all fairness I >can't see them having bad advice > > nor > > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > > done > > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > > everyone > > > else here is. > > > > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > > as such > > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > > instead > > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > > more > > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > > offering you > > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > > on > > > them. > > > > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > > friendly. > > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with >this, to please keep an open mind > > to > > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > > post on > > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before >posting your below message, which I > > > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > > just > > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure >to these other products. You're > > > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > > understanding > > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > > already > > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > you > > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > > here, as > > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > > from > > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > > > Best, > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her >friends and she have chosen not to > > allow > > > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > > bad > > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > > become > > > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > > must > > > >be > > > > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > > owners > > > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have >a customer that want's instant > > > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > > that is > > > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > > frozen). > > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to >you, since I don't know all the > > > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > > to. > > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can >explain it better than I can. It > > > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > > living waste > > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > > stocked. I > > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > > buggy > > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com ><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it >was expired before I bought it, > > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been >proven to work from many people, > > I > > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on >fish keeping have changed quite > > a > > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I >appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > > there is a > > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > > is > > > > > > every > > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > > least 37 > > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > > We > > > > > > breed > > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > > experience with > > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > long > > > > > > and most > > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > > water > > > > > > does not > > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > > me, > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > > culture, > > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > > consider > > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > > plants or > > > > > > coral. > > > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > > mes/3263.asp > > > >p > > > > >> > > > > >p > > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > > when > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > > assure that > > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > > person's > > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > > handle how > > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 >product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > > careful while > > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to >specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > > filters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > > They don't > > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > > poop > > > > > > is not > > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > > going to be > > > > > > different ways that people and >experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > > mostly the > > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > > going > > > > > > about > > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > > The person > > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the >other. The best way to figure out > > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > > for your > > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > > the > > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > > such > > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > > it), > > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > > green > > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > > any of > > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > > of, > > > > > > people often over stock their tanks >and cause health issues to their > > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When >stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > > large > > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > > going > > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > > fish). > > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > > it > > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > > easily > > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > > called, > > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the >only proven product to immediately > > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > > year > > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically >improved it somehow I don't see > > how > > > > > > it's going to do anything now. >Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > > they > > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see >them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > > the > > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > > filter > > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > > we > > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > > called > > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > > product > > > > > > > that's > > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > > combat > > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > > six > > > > > > > months. > > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > > and > > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > > adhere to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > > per > > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > > goldfish, > > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > > gouramis. > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > > whose > > > > > > > poop > > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter >can't possibly micro-skim it out. > > The > > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > > fishes at > > > > > > > the top > > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > > water) or > > > > > > > you see > > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > > this > > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and >even if your test strip says it's > > in > > > > > > > the low > > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > > go > > > > > > > high as > > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > > dime each > > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > > your > > > > > > best > > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > > the > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > > other > > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > > filters > > > > > > > are often > > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > > isn't, > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > > gallon > > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > > within reason. Still, if >overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > > upper > > > > > > > number. > > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, >tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > > but > > > > > > > it's > > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather >than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > > They > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank >however by the end of the week they > > > > > > > will be > > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > > food, > > > > > > > background, > > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > > a > > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > > $60 > > > > > > > which was > > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so >my mother-in-law got it for me. > > I > > > > > > > was so > > > > > > > excited when i found it because I >knew that's what I really wanted > > to > > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still >have to get it home and set up > > and > > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > > so I > > > > > > > don't > > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > > newbie > > > > > > > please > > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > > the > > > > > > > quick > > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > > vacuum, > > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > > want > > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > > different types > > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > > works. > > > > > > Also, > > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too >much about live plants in a tank > > and > > > > > > > i need > > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in >there because I will be putting > > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > > babies > > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > > place > > > > > > > for them > > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > > for > > > > > > > the long > > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > > and > > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any >advice regarding the care of my > > new > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by >clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > > home > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the > > digest, > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages >on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive > > individual > > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > ><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to >receive the digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups >emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking >on "Edit My Membership" on the > > > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > ><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; >for the No E-Mail option > > > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the >original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE > > > >-> > > > > > > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to the > > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the >original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE > > > >-> > > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >, > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: >> >> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for >> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and the water column last. Hey.... I >> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give >>me a bit of slack on missing the >> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... >> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to >>have ya clarify some points on the >> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the >> ammonia content by going up in tank size, wouldn't i be equally diluting the >> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> >> >> Donna, >> >> I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't >> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter >> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original >> established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. >> Naturally, as both would be sharing the >>available nutrients, when you remove the >> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some >> catching up to do in getting its population up >>to its old level and wouldn't be >> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > > larger water changing in the meantime during >this period. Still -- excellent! >> >> Ray >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: >> > >> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the >> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! >> > >> > >> > >> > _____ >> > >> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On >> > Behalf Of Ray >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hi Bill, >> > >> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid >> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the >>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. >> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never >> > overstocked) complement of fish to your >>aquarium the next day. The bacteria >> > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short >> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. >> > >> > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, >> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your >> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- >> > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is >> > populated to handle. > > > >> > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter >> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new >>filter in a newly set up tank, but >> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a >> > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many >> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very >> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting >> > repopulated from this "seeding." >> > >> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed >>the ability to promote this when >> > you stated, "by the introduction of an >>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your >> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the >> > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that >> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and >> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank >> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a >> > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that >> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not >> > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when >> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. >> > >> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in >>your established aquarium and you >> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's >>filter media to a new tank, you can >> > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet >> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of >>the two different tanks also has >> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring >> > established filter media. While a colony of >>nitrifying bacteria may already >> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon >> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of >> > their waste products in ppm (parts per >>million) would be only 1/3 as great, >> > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to >> > the now at any one time as compared to the >>higher concentration of this same >> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, >>with these same 12 fish, even with >> > moving the entire established filter to this >>new tank (and even if you used >> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new >> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some >> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as >>much organic waste per part of >> > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria >> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > > >> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already >> > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their >> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 >> > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, >> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not >> > especially dangerous though in your case, >>provided you did adequate PWC's to >> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. >> > >> > Ray >> > >> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , >> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: >> > > >> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The >>liveliness just forces us to work a bit >> > harder >> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own >> > beliefs!.. >> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored >> > way)... >> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the >> > introduction of >> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter >> > media or >> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a >>"BALANCED" level by the introduction >> > of an >> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. >> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > > > filter >> > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... >>the introduction of 10 tets... >> > And >> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few >> > tests >> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 >> > days.... >> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an >> > additional >> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of >> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. >> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ________________________________ >> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> >> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM >> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium >> > > >> > > >> > > Hi again, Livin, >> > > >> > > I approved your message for posting only >>because I preferred to ask you in >> > >> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not >> > put as >> > > much consideration into it. I've read over >>the posts of Amber's and Bill's >> > that >> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I >>can't see them having bad advice >> > nor >> > > being rude -- but only offering their >>opinions, as are you. As I just got >> > done >> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as >> > everyone >> > > else here is. >> > > >> > > >> > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it >> > as such >> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you >> > instead >> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn >> > more >> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done >> > offering you >> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- >>before you make you final decisions >> > on >> > > them. >> > > >> > > >> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and >> > friendly. >> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with >>this, to please keep an open mind >> > to >> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another >> > post on >> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before >>posting your below message, which I >> > >> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. >>Know that I will though, and again >> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it >> > just >> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure >>to these other products. You're >> > >> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully >> > understanding >> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you >> > already >> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > > > you >> > > don't know the principles behind them. >> > > >> > > >> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration >> > here, as >> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may >>pick them apart, or we may learn >> > from >> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. >> > > >> > > Best, >> > > >> > > Ray >> > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her >>friends and she have chosen not to >> > allow >> > > > >> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, >> > bad >> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool >> > > >bullies. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. >> > > > >> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who >>has come to share, befriend and >> > become >> > > >> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ________________________________ >> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > >> > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It >> > must >> > > >be >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I >>know of two specialty fish store > > > owners >> > > > >> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they >>have a customer that want's instant >> > >> > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product >> > that is >> > > >> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ---- >> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > >> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped >> > > > overnight and kept within a certain >>temperature range (so in the winter >> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's >> > frozen). >> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's >>too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't >> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to >>you, since I don't know all the >> > >> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like >> > to. >> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can >>explain it better than I can. It >> > >> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated >> > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but >> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown >> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you >> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this >> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. >> > > > >> > > > Amber >> > > > >> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: >> > > > > >> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No >> > > > > living waste >> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first >> > > > > stocked. I >> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and >> > buggy >> > > > > cocktails being sold. >> > > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ >> > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; >> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; >> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM >> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium >> > > > > >> > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did >> > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it >>was expired before I bought it, >> > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it >> > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been >>proven to work from many people, > > > I >> > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. >> > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an >> > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on >>fish keeping have changed quite >> > a >> > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I >>first bought a tank no one knew >> > > > > about cycling it first. >> > > > > >> > > > > Amber >> > > > > >> > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: >> > > > > > >> > > > > > With all due respect, although I >>appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, >> > > > > > there is a >> > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a >>territorial tank! Lol. My opinion >> > is >> > > > > > every >> > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at >> > > > > least 37 >> > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. >> > We >> > > > > > breed >> > > > > > many species. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my >> > > > > > experience with >> > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic >>product. Wasting money on a nutrifying >> > > > > > (nutritious >> > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried >> > > > > > bacteria, which >> > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > > > long >> > > > > > and most >> > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When >> > water >> > > > > > does not >> > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell >> > me, >> > > > > > Amber, >> > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a >>good, solid seed than with a live >> > > > > > culture, >> > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please >> > > > > > consider >> > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, >> > > > > plants or >> > > > > > coral. >> > > >> > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy >> > mes/3263.asp >> > > >p >> > > > >> >> > > > >p >> > > > > >p >> > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but >> > when >> > > > > > dealing >> > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to >> > > > > > assure that >> > > > > > they do not overstock. A species >>list per gallon, would be far more >> > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day >>we can know what each and every >> > > > > > person's >> > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can >> > > > > > handle how >> > > > > > many of which fishes. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 >>product for some plants. Keeping Java >> > > > > > Moss, and >> > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very >> > > > > > careful while >> > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to >>specific areas, logs and used on >> > > > > > overhangs, >> > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB >> > filters. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never >>unless you want to kill your fish. >> > > > > > They don't >> > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The >> > poop >> > > > > > is not >> > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always >> > > > > > going to be >> > > > > > different ways that people and >>experts do the same things, achieving >> > > > > > mostly the >> > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of >> > going >> > > > > > about >> > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit >>longer, but works better for me. >> > > > > > The person >> > > > > > asked for advice. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > No one way will be better than the >>other. The best way to figure out >> > > > > > what you'd > > > > > > > like to do is to read all the >responses, taking out what works best >> > > > > > for your >> > > > > > situation, but I<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51281	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

I looked at your settings in membership and it says you're still on individual emails, so I'm not sure why you are receiving a daily digest instead... unless you already fixed it? Amber On 5/3/2011 8:48 AM, Charles Harrison wrote: > > Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest > form of the list. I normally get messages which > are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days > the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and > even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and > trailers which I have been told to cut out of my > posts. > > Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long > winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no > desire to read all that over and over again. So, > I just delete them. I may be missing something > but there were some rules you guys had about > being short and to the point and cut out bottom > mess. > > Am I wrong? > > Charles H > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51282	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

First, your opinion is as important as the next guy's. There is no question about that. You just need to be ready to defend your opinion. Second, there are very few experts here. We do have a number of people with vast experience that they can draw upon, we have people with specialized knowledge in various area, but we have no real certified experts. While there are people here whose opinions and statements I value, I'd no sooner call them an expert than they would call me in the areas I am most familiar with. As for your Biozyme, there have been precious few concoctions that have been proven viable as nearly instant tank cycling products. Biozyme is not among them. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Livin Lovin Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 11:56 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, there is a very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is every bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We breed many species. I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my experience with Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying (nutritious bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried bacteria, which will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long and most have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water does not circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, Amber, what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live culture, which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please consider trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or coral. http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzymes /3263.asp The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when dealing with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to assure that they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every person's setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can handle how many of which fishes. Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java Moss, and Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very careful while keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on overhangs, because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. They don't filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop is not trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. Carbon is not necessary. True. Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always going to be different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving mostly the same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going about doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. The person asked for advice. No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out what you'd like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best for your situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the filtration will become insufficient. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. Amber On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Hi Chloe, > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > plants and > water with. > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > each side, > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > Dividers, with > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > get algae > and other things...flow's essential. > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > that's > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > months. > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > overstock, > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > the > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > inch, then > you will do just fine. > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > koi, > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > The > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > poop > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > poo just > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > the top > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > you see > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > is caused > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > the low > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > high as > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your best > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > factories. > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > system. > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > manufacturer and > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > canister only > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > filter. > In salt tanks, weekly. > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > are often > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > with > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > tank fine, > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > filter up. > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > number. > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > it's usually > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > it's > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > ________________________________ > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > were > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > will be > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > background, > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > which was > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > was so > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > get for my > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > allow it > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > don't > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > please > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > quick > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > but ill be > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > to divide > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > different types > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. Also, > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > i need > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > live-bearers > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > as well, > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > for them > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > the long > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > some quick > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > tank > would be great. > > Thanks much > -Chloe* (: >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51283	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

And, a very short shelf life, especially if not kept within the temperature range needed to keep it viable. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Livin Lovin Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 12:04 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No living waste to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first stocked. I wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy cocktails being sold. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I cannot say the same about Biozyme. And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew about cycling it first. Amber On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > there is a > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > every > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at least 37 > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > breed > many species. > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > experience with > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > (nutritious > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > bacteria, which > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > and most > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > does not > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > Amber, > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > culture, > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > consider > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, plants or > coral. >http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzyme s/3263.asp >p > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > dealing > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > assure that > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > person's > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > handle how > many of which fishes. > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > Moss, and > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > careful while > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > overhangs, > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > They don't > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > is not > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > going to be > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > mostly the > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > about > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > The person > asked for advice. > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > what you'd > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > for your > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > filtration will become insufficient. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > plants and > > water with. > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > each side, > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > Dividers, with > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > get algae > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product called > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > that's > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, better. > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They combat > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > months. > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > overstock, > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > the > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > inch, then > > you will do just fine. > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > koi, > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > The > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > poop > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > poo just > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > the top > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > you see > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > is caused > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > the low > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > high as > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a dime each > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > best > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we discuss poo > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > factories. > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > system. > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > manufacturer and > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > canister only > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need monthly/bi > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > filter. > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > are often > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > with > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > tank fine, > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > filter up. > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > number. > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > it's usually > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up appropriately. > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > it's > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > were > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > will be > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > background, > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > which was > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > was so > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > get for my > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > allow it > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > don't > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > please > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > quick > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > but ill be > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > to divide > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > different types > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > Also, > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > i need > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > live-bearers > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > as well, > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > for them > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > the long > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > some quick > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > tank > > would be great. > > > > Thanks much > > -Chloe* (: > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51284	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

First, this is not Amber's list. If she needs to be kept in line, she will be. You can ask her <g>. Second, you have not offered any proof that your Biozyme actually works other than in your own experience. You might want to start with that. For Dr. Tim's, why not start by checking out his web site, http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/ and then Google from there. I've read the papers. I do not say much because I know him and do not wish to be thought of having a conflict of interest. I also know other people who have developed products that I feel are better than those often mentioned here, but seldom mention them for the same reason. We allow all sorts of opinions. Just defend them when you make them or are asked to. You say Biozyme works. Let's see the factual proof that it does. It appears that no one else here has found it to work as advertised. I've not seen any rude or offensive comments in this thread. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Livin Lovin Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 1:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to allow any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, bad advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool bullies. Thankyou for the warm welcome. What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and become part of the community. Back to your clique! ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It must be ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store owners that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product that is maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's frozen). Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like to. Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. Amber On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > living waste > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > stocked. I > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and buggy > cocktails being sold. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, I > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite a > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > about cycling it first. > > Amber > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > there is a > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion is > > every > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > least 37 > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. We > > breed > > many species. > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > experience with > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > (nutritious > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > bacteria, which > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as long > > and most > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When water > > does not > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell me, > > Amber, > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > culture, > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > consider > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > plants or > > coral. >>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzym es/3263.asp >> >p > >p > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but when > > dealing > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > assure that > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > person's > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > handle how > > many of which fishes. > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > Moss, and > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > careful while > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > overhangs, > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB filters. > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > They don't > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The poop > > is not > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > going to be > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > mostly the > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of going > > about > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > The person > > asked for advice. > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > what you'd > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > for your > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, the > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, such > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for it), > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty green > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in any of > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid of, > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get large > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are going > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller fish). > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle it > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take easily > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product called, > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a year > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see how > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form they > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse the > > > plants and > > > water with. > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately filter > > > each side, > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > Dividers, with > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, we > > > get algae > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > called > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle product > > > that's > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > better. > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > combat > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every six > > > months. > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, and > > > overstock, > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to adhere to > > > the > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space per > > > inch, then > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are goldfish, > > > koi, > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and gouramis. > > > The > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type whose > > > poop > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. The > > > poo just > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see fishes at > > > the top > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad water) or > > > you see > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, this > > > is caused > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's in > > > the low > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can go > > > high as > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > dime each > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be your > > best > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > discuss poo > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > factories. > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into the > > > system. > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > manufacturer and > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > canister only > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > monthly/bi > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any other > > > filter. > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that filters > > > are often > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that isn't, > > > with > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 gallon > > > tank fine, > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > filter up. > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the upper > > > number. > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > it's usually > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > appropriately. > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it but > > > it's > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@... > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. They > > > were > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > will be > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter food, > > > background, > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and a > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for $60 > > > which was > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. I > > > was so > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted to > > > get for my > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up and > > > allow it > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium so I > > > don't > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank newbie > > > please > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for the > > > quick > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the vacuum, > > > but ill be > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I want > > > to divide > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > different types > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even works. > > Also, > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank and > > > i need > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > live-bearers > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the babies > > > as well, > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a place > > > for them > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry for > > > the long > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today and > > > some quick > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my new > > > tank > > > would be great. > > > > > > Thanks much > > > -Chloe* (: > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51285	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Yes I still have the old filter running at the same time. Yes when you remove the new filter you remove some of the bacterial colony so the old filter has some regrowing to do. However, I have not found the need for larger water changes as I’ve never had a ammonia or nitrite spike using this method. I think you may be right that the nitrite-eating bacteria are primarily in the substrate, but I guess enough are in the filter media because no nitrite spike. But I do believe the ammonia-eaters are primarily on the filter media. However if you want to cover all bases, use half the substrate from the original tank in the new tank and don’t take any chances. You also need to ensure that the bioload of the new tank is equal to or less than the old tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 7:47 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Donna, I don't believe I've seen this ever being recommended. If I have, it hasn't been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter established. I have to presume that you also still have the original established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. Naturally, as both would be sharing the available nutrients, when you remove the new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some catching up to do in getting its population up to its old level and wouldn't be quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few larger water changing in the meantime during this period. Still -- excellent! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > overstocked) complement of fish to your aquarium the next day. The bacteria > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > > If you're asking is this possible without one of these bacteria additives, > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > depending directly upon the size of the bioload this established filter is > populated to handle. > > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new filter in a newly set up tank, but > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > repopulated from this "seeding." > > Looks like you've already correctly assumed the ability to promote this when > you stated, "by the introduction of an APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > slight set back for the bacteria. It should always be assumed anyhow, that > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > necessarily control the same amount of waste products of another tank when > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in your established aquarium and you > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's filter media to a new tank, you can > expect that your new tank should support at least two (but perhaps not yet > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of the two different tanks also has > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > established filter media. While a colony of nitrifying bacteria may already > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > their waste products in ppm (parts per million) would be only 1/3 as great, > offering this population of bacteria only 1/3 of the food being offered to > the now at any one time as compared to the higher concentration of this same > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, with these same 12 fish, even with > moving the entire established filter to this new tank (and even if you used > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new 120 gallon tank, along with new > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as much organic waste per part of > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > working as there would not be any if the bacteria were not oxidizing their > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > though, indicated that while the filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > especially dangerous though in your case, provided you did adequate PWC's to > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The liveliness just forces us to work a bit > harder > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > beliefs!.. > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > way)... > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > introduction of > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > media or > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a "BALANCED" level by the introduction > of an > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > filter > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > And > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > tests > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > days.... > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > additional > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > > > Hi again, Livin, > > > > I approved your message for posting only because I preferred to ask you in > > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > put as > > much consideration into it. I've read over the posts of Amber's and Bill's > that > > you just replied to and in all fairness I can't see them having bad advice > nor > > being rude -- but only offering their opinions, as are you. As I just got > done > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > everyone > > else here is. > > > > > > As for these other members offering bad advice, please don't consider it > as such > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > instead > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > more > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > offering you > > about the liquid bacteria products -- before you make you final decisions > on > > them. > > > > > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > friendly. > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with this, to please keep an open mind > to > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > post on > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before posting your below message, which I > > > haven't yet had the chance to address. Know that I will though, and again > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > just > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure to these other products. You're > > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > understanding > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > already > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor to recommend them to others if > you > > don't know the principles behind them. > > > > > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > here, as > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may pick them apart, or we may learn > from > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > > > > Best, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > > > > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her friends and she have chosen not to > allow > > > > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm not staying. The opinions are #1, > bad > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, very reminiscent of highschool > > >bullies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > > > > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who has come to share, befriend and > become > > > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > There is another product called TLC. It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > must > > >be > > > > > > > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I know of two specialty fish store > owners > > > > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have a customer that want's instant > > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd be hesitant to use any product > that is > > > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > > > overnight and kept within a certain temperature range (so in the winter > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > frozen). > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to you, since I don't know all the > > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > to. > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can explain it better than I can. It > > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know is that MANY people have shown > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > > > > living waste > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > > > > stocked. I > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > buggy > > > > cocktails being sold. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it was expired before I bought it, > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been proven to work from many people, > I > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid too, but that doesn't make me an > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on fish keeping have changed quite > a > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I first bought a tank no one knew > > > > about cycling it first. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With all due respect, although I appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > > > > > there is a > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > > > > > > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > is > > > > > every > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > > > > > > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > > > > least 37 > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > We > > > > > breed > > > > > many species. > > > > > > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > > > > > experience with > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > > > > > (nutritious > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > > > > > bacteria, which > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > long > > > > > and most > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > water > > > > > does not > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > me, > > > > > Amber, > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a good, solid seed than with a live > > > > > culture, > > > > > which may only be partially alive. This is a great product. Please > > > > > consider > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > > > > plants or > > > > > coral. > > > >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > mes/3263.asp > > >p > > > >> > > > >p > > > > >p > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > when > > > > > dealing > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > > > > > assure that > > > > > they do not overstock. A species list per gallon, would be far more > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day we can know what each and every > > > > > person's > > > > > setup is made of, it's very difficult to diagnose which system can > > > > > handle how > > > > > many of which fishes. > > > > > > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 product for some plants. Keeping Java > > > > > Moss, and > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > > > > > careful while > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to specific areas, logs and used on > > > > > overhangs, > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > filters. > > > > > > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never unless you want to kill your fish. > > > > > They don't > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > poop > > > > > is not > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > > > > > > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > > > > > > > > > > Although I agree with some of what has been said, there are always > > > > > going to be > > > > > different ways that people and experts do the same things, achieving > > > > > mostly the > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > going > > > > > about > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit longer, but works better for me. > > > > > The person > > > > > asked for advice. > > > > > > > > > > No one way will be better than the other. The best way to figure out > > > > > what you'd > > > > > like to do is to read all the responses, taking out what works best > > > > > for your > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if you do divide this tank in two, > the > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you get low light/nutrient plants, > such > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > it), > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > green > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > any of > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have tons of plants (they need pruned > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find other types of low light plants. > > > > > > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule and should really be gotten rid > of, > > > > > people often over stock their tanks and cause health issues to their > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > large > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > going > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > fish). > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank you should either fishless cycle > it > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > easily > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > called, > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the only proven product to immediately > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > year > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically improved it somehow I don't see > how > > > > > it's going to do anything now. Nitrifying bacteria require water and > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > they > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see them as doing any good myself. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > > > > > > > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to purchase a CO2 product to infuse > the > > > > > > plants and > > > > > > water with. > > > > > > > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > filter > > > > > > each side, > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > > > > > > Dividers, with > > > > > > or without holes, still cause serious flow issues. Without flow, > we > > > > > > get algae > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month before adding fish. Put in a product > > > > called > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > product > > > > > > that's > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals in your filtration system. They > > > > combat > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to a certain amount. Change every > six > > > > > > months. > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > and > > > > > > overstock, > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > adhere to > > > > > > the > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > per > > > > > > inch, then > > > > > > you will do just fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > goldfish, > > > > > > koi, > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > gouramis. > > > > > > The > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > whose > > > > > > poop > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter can't possibly micro-skim it out. > The > > > > > > poo just > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > fishes at > > > > > > the top > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > water) or > > > > > > you see > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > this > > > > > > is caused > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and even if your test strip says it's > in > > > > > > the low > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > go > > > > > > high as > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > > > > > > > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > > > > dime each > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > > > > > > > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > your > > > > > best > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > > > > discuss poo > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? Well canisters are known as nitrate > > > > > > factories. > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and essentially, the poop comes back into > the > > > > > > system. > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > > > > > > manufacturer and > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > > > > > > canister only > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > > > > monthly/bi > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > other > > > > > > filter. > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > filters > > > > > > are often > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > isn't, > > > > > > with > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > gallon > > > > > > tank fine, > > > > > > within reason. Still, if overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > > > > > > filter up. > > > > > > > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > upper > > > > > > number. > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, tops. If it says it's for a 20, > > > > > > it's usually > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > > > > appropriately. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your tank is going to be spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > but > > > > > > it's > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather than having issues down the line. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>" > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > > > > > > > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) 55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > They > > > > > > were > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank however by the end of the week they > > > > > > will be > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > food, > > > > > > background, > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > a > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > $60 > > > > > > which was > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so my mother-in-law got it for me. > I > > > > > > was so > > > > > > excited when i found it because I knew that's what I really wanted > to > > > > > > get for my > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still have to get it home and set up > and > > > > > > allow it > > > > > > to run for a few days to get everything to the proper equilibrium > so I > > > > > > don't > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > newbie > > > > > > please > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know please! I have everything needed for > the > > > > > > quick > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > vacuum, > > > > > > but ill be > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And if so, is it worth it because I > want > > > > > > to divide > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > > > > > > different types > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > works. > > > > > Also, > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too much about live plants in a tank > and > > > > > > i need > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in there because I will be putting > > > > > > live-bearers > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > babies > > > > > > as well, > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > place > > > > > > for them > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get them into the baby tank. So sorry > for > > > > > > the long > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my hobby even more starting today > and > > > > > > some quick > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any advice regarding the care of my > new > > > > > > tank > > > > > > would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks much > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > > important to the > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > > you can > > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the > digest, > > > > > > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > > where you > > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive > individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > > > Thank You. > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > > > > important to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > > > > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > > > home > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > > > > > which > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail > option > > > > > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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> > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to the > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE > > >-> > > > > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can > > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > > > page. > > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you > > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > >e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51286	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Hi Cindy, I would always opt for two filters instead of one on any tank-especially a larger one like yours for a number of reasons. If one of them is out of service for any length of time the other one will keep your tank ticking over, you also probably have more media area for the good bugs to colonise on 2 filters than just one even if it is rated for a tank of your size. Finally 2 filters ensure more of the tank is covered with current from the outfalls. One filter running at one end of a tank can leave the other end quite stagnant. Bill is spot-on about the carbon not doing much for you-I don't know why manufacturers are obsessed with telling us we need carbon based media in just about every filter when in reality it is seldom needed. Inert foam/sponges/ceramic chips etc in place of the carbon will serve you & your fish far better. I agree with you that this is an expensive hobby of you listen to the big store staff-it can be relatively inexpensive but you have to make that initial outlay of good equipment. One of the best pieces of advice I had was getting a tank as large as my budget or floor space would allow, true this was specifically for Goldfish keeping as they kick out a lot of waste but I think generally this is also a good rule of thumb. It is a false economy to start small & work your way up because each upgrade costs a fortune in time, money & effort whereas a couple of baby fish in a huge tank is great because not only have you done all the hard work but they have a stable & familiar home to grow up in. The only thing that cost me a lot of money now is the amount of food several large Comets will get through!! Water changes-I think there is a good device called a Python in the US which takes the back ache out of water changes. Don't know much about them but I'm sure someone will jump in & tell you all about them. Plants-I love real plants although I have tried many varieties before finding something hardy enough to survive my Goldfish's determined foraging that is Vallis. I plant them in regular clay pots from the garden centre & use aquatic potting compound by Tetra. I have to cover the top of the soil with pebbles or the fish dig them up & make a mess. Water Changes-Like Bill said, get yourself some quality conditioner like Aqua Safe or Stress Coat to remove the chlorine or chloramine from your tap water but make sure to temperature match the new water before adding to your tank. Using bottled water has a couple of obvious disadvantages-it has no trace elements which are beneficial to fish & equally importantly it would cost you a fortune for the amounts you would need but at least you have your Land Rover to carry it all home from the store!! Cycling Your Tank-I would always opt for a fishless cycle as using fish can be extremely stressful if not fatal, there are some serious toxic issues going on during a cycle. This is a good site about it, I think the diagram is excellent: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm This is always worth remembering: 'Take Care Of Your Water & Your Water Will Take Care Of Your Fish' John*<o)))< * On 3 May 2011 21:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You made > mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what product that > was? > > There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live > bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a tank, but > in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be added all > at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as that > means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which causes die > off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the tank to > compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can cause a > multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, > ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading the test > results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be difficult > to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial > supplement. > > Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, > defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. > > Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for ammonia, > nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine where your > water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange > molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them > they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon > tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51287	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: discus help!

are baby discus hard to take care of there about two inches ...... an what about regular size discus

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51288	From: chloelikeohman@yahoo.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?

I think my sunset platy has dropsy or bloat. Her scales are protruding and she only has one fin. I isolated her into a bredder net but shes still in the same tank. Do I need to quarantine her? Which does she have? How do I treat it? Its so sad. I can provide pictures of her if needed.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51289	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: discus help!

Google is your friend. DISCUS CARE. They aren't necessarily hard to take care of but they are VERY high maintenance -- probably every other day for the rest of their lives. If you won't or can't put that much time and effort into them, then pick hardier fish that don't require so much work. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Elijah Salazar" <elijah258@...> wrote: > > are baby discus hard to take care of there about two inches ...... an what about regular size discus >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51290	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I thought it was a fancy name for a fish filter. lol   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 9:39 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   Hey, I can actually answer one of your questions. LFS is Local Fish Store - as opposed to a PetCo/Petsmart kinda place. ~Karlene, learning along with you! On Tue, May 3, 2011 at 8:59 AM, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not > be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if > maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is > established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't > wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a > few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? > Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. > This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. > Thank you for the advice. > -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51291	From: Bill	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: discus help!

Wild caught.. yes.. tank bred not so bad. Just keep your temps above 82, ph below 7.0. They can be raised outside of those parameters but thrive given the above. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Elijah Salazar <elijah258@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:38:30 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] discus help! are baby discus hard to take care of there about two inches ...... an what about regular size discus [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51292	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads

Hi, Amber: To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter out of it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your > fish over to the new tank? > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > Amber > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant according > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will not > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > > are welcome as well. > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows and > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and dragon > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel threatened by > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51293	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I have Ammonia in my tank. But it is not high. Its almost normal. The tank is crystal clear. I am so happy about that. That means no water changes every other day. :) I had my water tested at a fish store. I like this store. He told me not to do anything for now. He told me to come in on Friday to get the water tested. I got some live plants and my fish seem to love it. I have a molly that likes nibble on it. And when I put the plants in my shrimp came out of hiding and went to the plants and hid there too. I hope everything is going to be fine with the tank. I got that prime water conditioner. Is a walmart water filter a good filter or should I go with another brand? The walmart filter is what came with the tank. I was thinking about changing it to a canister filter after my tank is established. Thanks for the help   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   Sorry.. We tend to get used to using acronyms... Local Fish Store.. meaning an owner maintained store rather than a big box store that gives someone an hour or so of training and then plunks them in the fish department. Your carbon filter isn't doing much for you other than maybe pulling some mineral content out of the water column and if you ever have to medicate will even remove the meds!... Bottled water?... Not needed unless you have really weird and wacky water conditions coming out of your tap. For W/c's (water changes).. .just fill a bucket from your faucet... I then add a bit of Prime and let it set for about 15 minutes. Some don't even wait for the 15 minutes.. add her back in. If you've multiple buckets to add, some don't even add the Prime until the w/c is completed. They just dose it at the end. This one might get a rise out of some but that's ok... Some folks I know add a capfull (50 gallon dose) weekly to their tanks. I've never heard anyone say that too much Prime is bad so maybe we'll see. Hit us back with any and all questions!.. oh.. before I close this.. "Going to the store to pick up a few things"... what things are you looking to pick up? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:59:45 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help I have a really stupid question. What is LFS? So this tank thing should not be as hard as the first time. I am going to go to the fish store to see if maybe they have some established filters. One of the carbon filter is established. The other is not and is new. This filter has 2 sides. I can't wait to get started on my fish tank. Going to the fish store to pick up a few things. When I do water changes should I use bottled drinking water? Sorry for so many questions. I am learning how to do this all over again. This is not like learning how to ride a bike. lol. Thank you for the advice.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:50 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Cindy.. to keep it simple.. Buy some prime (water conditioner) and a good test kit.. not the strips... API makes a good product. You'll be wanting to measure: ammonia, nitrites and nitrates... possibly water hardness depending upon the type of fish ya wanna keep. Beg, borrow, or steal some well established filter media or substrate from a friend or even a good LFS... (not from a big box store)... Fill your tank, treat it with prime ...a cap full for your 55. Now ya gotta decide if you want to do a fishless cycle or a fish cycle. I go with the fish. A few barbs (I personally hate them).. or without the fish some raw ammonia ya get from a hardware store... Then measure measure measure daily. Initially you should see a spike in ammonia either from what ya added or what the fish poo created... The bacteria in the borrowed/stole media/substrate will then start attacking the ammonia turning it into nitrite... Then your tests will show a decrease in ammonia and an increase in Nitrite.... Then another type of bacteria kicks in and attacks the Nitrite and turns that into Nitrate... Which gets off-loaded via water changes and/or live plant usage. Pretty soon, you'll get reading of 0 on all three. At that time your tank is cycled and a 15 percent w/c per week will suffice unless you overstock it. How to tell if you've overstocked? Testing!... Suggestion on testing?.. buy a little syringe at your local drugstore... a plastic cup of water dipped into your tank and the 3 or 4 vials.. add 5 mm of water to each vial. your test takes less than 5 minutes daily... Your tests will tell you what is happening to your tank... and fish.. and water... Once ya establish your base, post again with any problems!.. But, to save yourself time, post your results from your latest water tests... Good luck and Im' sure you'll kick butt this time around! Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 8:08:21 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help My 5 gallon is the type that has different changing lights and no real filter. It has a tube in the center of the tank with a air bubbler that went into this tube. When the light is on the bubbles would show up that color. The new tank came with a filter its a Aqua-Tech. The people told me they just took the fish to Petsmart to be adopted out. And they gave me the tank. So I know nothing on the filter that they are using. I like the Bio wheel filters better than the carbon filters. Should I get a Bio wheel? Should I use 2 filters? And get more air bubble things? Would live plants help? I realized Petsmart did not know what they were talking about. They wanted me to buy new filters, plants, bubble thingys, fish, fish food, rocks, and other stuff to make the fish happy. They seem to be all about the money. I am all about the health of the tank and the fish. Al long time ago I had a 55 gallon long. And it was a nightmare. I had Ammonia, PH, Nitrates levels throw the roof. Then on top of that my fish came down with ICK. I remember doing water changes every other day. But I don't really remember much of what I did. I almost gave up. It was about 3 months that everything came to normal. and spending lots of money on chemicals to help the water and I thought that it would never go away. Its been about 6 years sense I had a 55 gallon. And I almost forgot how to care for it. Now I feel like I am new to this all over again. And I don't really want to be doing water changes every other day for 3 months. Is that normal? I wont mind every other 3 or 4 days. that would give me time to gather my strength to lift heavy buckets. lol. I love my fish and animals and I don't want to see anything happen to them. I want to catch everything now so i can nip this in the bud and not have to worry about my fish dying. And when my tank clears up. How many fish can I have in a 55 gallon tall? And what do i need to buy for my tank to help out with the water? Sorry for so many questions. I need to make a list of things to get. i really thank you guys for the help. I know I am going to learn a lot from this group. I never really introduced myself. this is me. I am 37. I live in Phoenix, Az. I own 6 German Shepherds 1 wolf/German shepherd 1 pitbull.. I been breeding German Shepherds for 8 years now. I own 7 fish, 2 birds, 2 bunnies and a cat. I am a stay at home mom. I love to read about genetics. I guess you can call me a nerd. lol. Well not really. I like to go off-roading. Land Rover Range Rover are awesome trucks. :) JMO. So I am a nerdy tomboy in a way. But i still like my Barbie dolls. lol.  Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 2:49 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help  Hi John, You covered this subject extremely well. The only thing I can add as far as water changes, is that each tank is different just as each tank's bioload is different. So, each tank has different partial water changing requirements. After a tank is cycled, it should be only necessary to change as much water as to keep the nitrate down to where you want it -- preferably no higher than 40 ppm at any time, but as close to zero as one may want to maintain it. Even a reading of 10 ppm or perhaps 20 ppm is still better than 40 ppm, but 5.0 ppm would be more ideal. In general, with an average stocking load of fishes, weekly PWC's of from 25% to 33% should be sufficient to keep the nitrates down in this range. Only testing as these weeks pass, and with making these PWC's, can it then be seen how much your PWCing efforts are paying off in the results of the nitrate tests. The maintenance can then be changed to control the nitrates to where they're preferred as ongoing testing will show. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Cindy, > > That is called a bacterial bloom or 'New Tank Syndrome'. It's caused when > there is a disturbance in the equilibrium of the eco system-I'm guessing > that you have added your filter & some decor from your old 5 gallon? The > filter was fine running a 5 gallon tank & had built up a colony of good bugs > accordingly. Suddenly it has to run a tank 10 times the size with only the > same amount of bacteria so it's gone into meltdown. Do you have a larger > filter in your new tank? if not then you need to add one as soon as possible > but leave your old one in to 'seed' the new one. This could take several > weeks so you need to be monitoring your water quality closely & doing > frequent water changes to compensate for the increase in toxins. Do you have > a test kit? The API Master Test Kit is a great method & more accurate then > the strips. > > I don't have a tropical tank so I can't give you specific percentages & > frequencies for your water changes but someone will surely be along shortly > who will be able to advise! > > John*<o)))<* > > On 3 May 2011 07:28, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, > > 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they > > were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall > > tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51294	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

\\Steve//, As this "expert" is no longer listed in the membership roster, I'm afraid your messages to him/her may have fallen on deaf ears -- although I don't know at what time they resigned. Still, perhaps your points to them may have better gotten across to them if you'd have included their < livinnorcal@... > addy in the Send To box. I noticed there was quite a lapse of time between the times that they sent their message and the time your responded to them, allowing you plenty of time for them to complete their threat < g > (of leaving). You couldn't have said it better to them though. Ray </HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51295	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I did not know that. The product is Top Fin. It seems that my levels of Ammonia are going down I think. My tank is crystal clear now. And when I got my water tested it was at a yellow greenish looked almost yellow. The guy in the LFS told me that the Ammonia lever should be in the yellow. He said that the Ammonia levels are almost there. He said everything else is perfect.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 1:12 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You made mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what product that was? There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a tank, but in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be added all at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as that means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which causes die off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the tank to compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can cause a multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading the test results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be difficult to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial supplement. Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine where your water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics.    > > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51296	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/3/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

I think i will go out to look at the filters. I dont know if I want a bio wheel or a canister. Any suggestion? I love the way my tank is looking right now.  I don't know if i want to add extra weight to my Land Rover with water. I already buy 308 pounds of dog food a month. I don't know if my car would hold more weight added with water and dog food. lol I'm kidding. But not kidding about the dog food. I am excited that I found this group. I don't know what I would do. You guys helped me out a lot. I been saving the messages so I can look back to see what was said so I have something to go by on. Thanks so much.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   Hi Cindy, I would always opt for two filters instead of one on any tank-especially a larger one like yours for a number of reasons. If one of them is out of service for any length of time the other one will keep your tank ticking over, you also probably have more media area for the good bugs to colonise on 2 filters than just one even if it is rated for a tank of your size. Finally 2 filters ensure more of the tank is covered with current from the outfalls. One filter running at one end of a tank can leave the other end quite stagnant. Bill is spot-on about the carbon not doing much for you-I don't know why manufacturers are obsessed with telling us we need carbon based media in just about every filter when in reality it is seldom needed. Inert foam/sponges/ceramic chips etc in place of the carbon will serve you & your fish far better. I agree with you that this is an expensive hobby of you listen to the big store staff-it can be relatively inexpensive but you have to make that initial outlay of good equipment. One of the best pieces of advice I had was getting a tank as large as my budget or floor space would allow, true this was specifically for Goldfish keeping as they kick out a lot of waste but I think generally this is also a good rule of thumb. It is a false economy to start small & work your way up because each upgrade costs a fortune in time, money & effort whereas a couple of baby fish in a huge tank is great because not only have you done all the hard work but they have a stable & familiar home to grow up in. The only thing that cost me a lot of money now is the amount of food several large Comets will get through!! Water changes-I think there is a good device called a Python in the US which takes the back ache out of water changes. Don't know much about them but I'm sure someone will jump in & tell you all about them. Plants-I love real plants although I have tried many varieties before finding something hardy enough to survive my Goldfish's determined foraging that is Vallis. I plant them in regular clay pots from the garden centre & use aquatic potting compound by Tetra. I have to cover the top of the soil with pebbles or the fish dig them up & make a mess. Water Changes-Like Bill said, get yourself some quality conditioner like Aqua Safe or Stress Coat to remove the chlorine or chloramine from your tap water but make sure to temperature match the new water before adding to your tank. Using bottled water has a couple of obvious disadvantages-it has no trace elements which are beneficial to fish & equally importantly it would cost you a fortune for the amounts you would need but at least you have your Land Rover to carry it all home from the store!! Cycling Your Tank-I would always opt for a fishless cycle as using fish can be extremely stressful if not fatal, there are some serious toxic issues going on during a cycle. This is a good site about it, I think the diagram is excellent: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm This is always worth remembering: 'Take Care Of Your Water & Your Water Will Take Care Of Your Fish' John*<o)))< * On 3 May 2011 21:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You made > mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what product that > was? > > There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live > bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a tank, but > in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be added all > at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as that > means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which causes die > off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the tank to > compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can cause a > multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, > ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading the test > results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be difficult > to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial > supplement. > > Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, > defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. > > Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for ammonia, > nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine where your > water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange > molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I got them > they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 gallon > tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water and water > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to the tank > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. There > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it gets cloudy > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I need to > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to big for > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > Cindy > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot > Understand. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51297	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads

Terrarium! _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cobra427lady Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads Hi, Amber: To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter out of it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your > fish over to the new tank? > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > Amber > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant according > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will not > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > > are welcome as well. > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows and > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and dragon > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel threatened by > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51298	From: joe t	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Donna: I understood Bill to say he was setting up a new tank. I am assuming in addition to the old one. Unless I missed something (and that is possible since this is one hell of a long string, LOL) Bill is using the Wahlstad method for his tank. You advised, "to cover all bases, use half the substrate from the original tank in the new tank...". Well, Bill has soil under his large grained sand using this method. How is he going to get that substrate out of the old tank without making one hell of a mess? Then putting it in the new tank......whoah! an even bigger mess. I never tried this method. ......Well, I did, a long time ago (30 years, maybe +) and everyone told me I was crazy. Then when I had to clean out the tank I had such a job that I thought I was crazy, too! And that was the end of that idea.....for me, anyway. Can you or Bill explain to me how to go about doing this, please? joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51299	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?

Most people have trouble treating dropsy, I will give you a link that may help you. How long has your platy had dropsy? If it didn't just start then there is only a slim chance you can save her, as you need to treat it immediately. http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm Amber On 5/3/2011 6:39 PM, chloelikeohman@... wrote: > > I think my sunset platy has dropsy or bloat. Her scales are protruding > and she only has one fin. I isolated her into a bredder net but shes > still in the same tank. Do I need to quarantine her? Which does she > have? How do I treat it? Its so sad. I can provide pictures of her if > needed. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51300	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads

Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if you haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in the gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were pests hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping Rams I would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a bit upset when you move them. Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters running on it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is using a (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with the old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light for it so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the tank so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a pain to add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I know how it goes about taking a bath. Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would suck up if I did a deep cleaning). Amber On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > Hi, Amber: > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter out of > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > Clare > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your > > fish over to the new tank? > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > according > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will > not > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows > and > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > dragon > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > threatened by > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51301	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

You don't need a land rover for the water conditioner, LOL. I get mine in a gallon jug and that lasts me a couple of months of regular water changes, you might go through it faster right now since your tank is still cycling but it sounds like your tank is getting better :) Amber On 5/3/2011 10:44 PM, Cindy Johnston wrote: > > I think i will go out to look at the filters. I dont know if I want a > bio wheel or a canister. Any suggestion? I love the way my tank is > looking right now. I don't know if i want to add extra weight to my > Land Rover with water. I already buy 308 pounds of dog food a month. I > don't know if my car would hold more weight added with water and dog > food. lol I'm kidding. But not kidding about the dog food. I am > excited that I found this group. I don't know what I would do. You > guys helped me out a lot. I been saving the messages so I can look > back to see what was said so I have something to go by on. > Thanks so much. > > > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind > Cannot Understand. > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@... > <mailto:simmonds.john%40ntlworld.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help > > > Hi Cindy, > > I would always opt for two filters instead of one on any tank-especially a > larger one like yours for a number of reasons. If one of them is out of > service for any length of time the other one will keep your tank ticking > over, you also probably have more media area for the good bugs to colonise > on 2 filters than just one even if it is rated for a tank of your size. > Finally 2 filters ensure more of the tank is covered with current from the > outfalls. One filter running at one end of a tank can leave the other end > quite stagnant. Bill is spot-on about the carbon not doing much for you-I > don't know why manufacturers are obsessed with telling us we need carbon > based media in just about every filter when in reality it is seldom > needed. > Inert foam/sponges/ceramic chips etc in place of the carbon will serve > you & > your fish far better. > > I agree with you that this is an expensive hobby of you listen to the big > store staff-it can be relatively inexpensive but you have to make that > initial outlay of good equipment. One of the best pieces of advice I > had was > getting a tank as large as my budget or floor space would allow, true this > was specifically for Goldfish keeping as they kick out a lot of waste > but I > think generally this is also a good rule of thumb. It is a false > economy to > start small & work your way up because each upgrade costs a fortune in > time, > money & effort whereas a couple of baby fish in a huge tank is great > because > not only have you done all the hard work but they have a stable & familiar > home to grow up in. The only thing that cost me a lot of money now is the > amount of food several large Comets will get through!! > > Water changes-I think there is a good device called a Python in the US > which takes the back ache out of water changes. Don't know much about them > but I'm sure someone will jump in & tell you all about them. > > Plants-I love real plants although I have tried many varieties before > finding something hardy enough to survive my Goldfish's determined > foraging > that is Vallis. I plant them in regular clay pots from the garden centre & > use aquatic potting compound by Tetra. I have to cover the top of the soil > with pebbles or the fish dig them up & make a mess. > > Water Changes-Like Bill said, get yourself some quality conditioner like > Aqua Safe or Stress Coat to remove the chlorine or chloramine from > your tap > water but make sure to temperature match the new water before adding > to your > tank. Using bottled water has a couple of obvious disadvantages-it has no > trace elements which are beneficial to fish & equally importantly it would > cost you a fortune for the amounts you would need but at least you > have your > Land Rover to carry it all home from the store!! > > Cycling Your Tank-I would always opt for a fishless cycle as using > fish can > be extremely stressful if not fatal, there are some serious toxic issues > going on during a cycle. This is a good site about it, I think the diagram > is excellent: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm > > This is always worth remembering: 'Take Care Of Your Water & Your > Water Will > Take Care Of Your Fish' > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 3 May 2011 21:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You > made > > mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what > product that > > was? > > > > There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live > > bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a > tank, but > > in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be > added all > > at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as > that > > means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which > causes die > > off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the > tank to > > compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can > cause a > > multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, > > ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading > the test > > results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be > difficult > > to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial > > supplement. > > > > Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, > > defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. > > > > Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for > ammonia, > > nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine > where your > > water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange > > molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I > got them > > they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 > gallon > > tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water > and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to > the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. > There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it > gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I > need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to > big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > > > Cindy > > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind > Cannot > > Understand. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51302	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Moving a walstad tank is next to impossible. You have to break it down and start over with fresh soil and gravel. Once you start to remove all the gravel/soil it kinda all mixes together and getting the gravel mixed out is such a chore that just getting new gravel is so much easier. Walstad tanks can last years before they need to be torn down and start over, but I've never seen one that required tearing down and starting over. Mine needs new silicone which is the only reason I need to tear it down and start over. I'm assuming that at some point the plants use up all the nutrients in the soil, but aren't fish constantly supply new nutrients? Is it really necessary to tear down and start over with a walstad tank? Perhaps I need to ask Diane why, LOL. Amber On 5/4/2011 8:16 AM, joe t wrote: > > Donna: > I understood Bill to say he was setting up a new tank. I am assuming > in addition to the old one. > > Unless I missed something (and that is possible since this is one hell > of a long string, LOL) Bill is using the Wahlstad method for his tank. > You advised, "to cover all bases, use half the substrate from the > original tank in the new tank...". Well, Bill has soil under his large > grained sand using this method. How is he going to get that substrate > out of the old tank without making one hell of a mess? Then putting it > in the new tank......whoah! an even bigger mess. I never tried this > method. ......Well, I did, a long time ago (30 years, maybe +) and > everyone told me I was crazy. Then when I had to clean out the tank I > had such a job that I thought I was crazy, too! And that was the end > of that idea.....for me, anyway. > > Can you or Bill explain to me how to go about doing this, please? > > joe t > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51303	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads

Would look kinda cool as a terrarium :-) Could see a chameleon climbing around on a tall grape branch inside it's steamy interior. Wonder what critters could survive year 'round outside if I put it in a sheltered location? Should probably do a little research......might be a fun project. Thanks for the idea, Donna! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Terrarium! > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of cobra427lady > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 11:15 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to it's > depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, not to > mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation piece, > but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter out of it - don't > know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > Clare > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your > > fish over to the new tank? > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant according > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will not > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows and > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and dragon > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel threatened by > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51304	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?

>I think my sunset platy has dropsy or bloat. Her >scales are protruding and she only has one fin. >I isolated her into a bredder net but shes still >in the same tank. Do I need to quarantine her? >Which does she have? How do I treat it? Its so >sad. I can provide pictures of her if needed. The edema is usually caused by kidney failure. That's the largest and most important organ in the fishes body. The kidney failure is usually caused by bacterial infection. Once one sees this symptom it is usually too late to do anything to save the fish. It's regulatory system has just failed and it can no longer eliminate collecting fluids. Raising the dissolved solids in it's water by adding salt often helps if it is soon enough. Otherwise, it's the freezer for the fish. It might be a good time to work toward a cleaner environment of the glass cage your fish are in. When was the last time you changed how much water? Bacteria has a way of finding a way into the cleanest tanks but it is much harder for them to do it if they have little nourishment. Time to clean things up. Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51305	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

Yes I can and I rechecked it. I never made a change one way or the other. Neither did the settings. Problem is time, my time. I can't afford to take the time to read 5 or 10 - 25K messages from a message board that normally sends messages which are averaging 3 to 6 K. This list is monitored. There are rules that have been ignored. Rules - guidelines - whatever. And the leaders are stepping all over them. It's an irritation that drives experienced knowledge away. If I subscribe to the digest of the list, I get a message once or twice a day. It is full of questions and answers that may or may not be in the best interest of the fish or fish keeper. Then it is too late for me to say something meaningful. If I get the instant message and have a chance to read itand respond meaningfully, you guys get 40 years of experience and knowledge. I am the Chairman of a national tropical fish organization, member and council member of one of the most active aquarium societies in the US. I give talks around the country. My Ph D is in Chemistry. But if the leaders of this group can't can't follow their own rules - I don't have time either. Charles H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Charles >are you able to access your memebership settings >to change back to individuals messages? > >mike g > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: charles@... >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:48 am >Subject: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest > >form of the list. I normally get messages which > >are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days > >the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and > >even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and > >trailers which I have been told to cut out of my > >posts. > >Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long > >winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no > >desire to read all that over and over again. So, > >I just delete them. I may be missing something > >but there were some rules you guys had about > >being short and to the point and cut out bottom > >mess. > >Am I wrong? > >Charles H > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Bill, > >I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned > >about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank > >goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but > >not to make you feel worse today, have another > >cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not > >mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered > >all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this > >morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I > >talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon > >tanks and their related ammonia contents. > >Ray > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > >> > >> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > >> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and >>the water column last. Hey.... I > >> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give > >>me a bit of slack on missing the > >> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > >> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to > >>have ya clarify some points on the > >> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > >> ammonia content by going up in tank size, >>wouldn't i be equally diluting the > >> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > >> > >> Donna, > >> > >> I don't believe I've seen this ever being >>recommended. If I have, it hasn't > >> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > >> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > >> established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > >> Naturally, as both would be sharing the > >>available nutrients, when you remove the > >> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > >> catching up to do in getting its population up > >>to its old level and wouldn't be > >> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > >> larger water changing in the meantime during > >>this period. Still -- excellent! > >> > >> Ray > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > >> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _____ > >> > > >> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > >> > Behalf Of Ray > >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Bill, > >> > > >> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > >> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the >>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > >> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > >> > overstocked) complement of fish to your >>aquarium the next day. The bacteria > >> > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > >> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > >> > > >> > If you're asking is this possible without >>one of these bacteria additives, > >> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > >> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > >> > depending directly upon the size of the >>bioload this established filter is > >> > populated to handle. > >> > > >> > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > >> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new > >>filter in a newly set up tank, but > >> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > >> > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > >> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > >> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > >> > repopulated from this "seeding." > >> > > >> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed > >>the ability to promote this when > >> > you stated, "by the introduction of an >>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > >> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > >> > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > >> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > >> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > >> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > >> > slight set back for the bacteria. It should >>always be assumed anyhow, that > >> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > >> > necessarily control the same amount of >>waste products of another tank when > >> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > >> > > >> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in > >>your established aquarium and you > >> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's > >>filter media to a new tank, you can > >> > expect that your new tank should support at >>least two (but perhaps not yet > >> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of >>the two different tanks also has > >> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > >> > established filter media. While a colony of >>nitrifying bacteria may already > >> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > >> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > >> > their waste products in ppm (parts per >>million) would be only 1/3 as great, > >> > offering this population of bacteria only >>1/3 of the food being offered to > >> > the now at any one time as compared to the > >>higher concentration of this same > >> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, >>with these same 12 fish, even with > >> > moving the entire established filter to >>this new tank (and even if you used > >> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new >>120 gallon tank, along with new > >> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > >> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be >>as much organic waste per part of > >> > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > >> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > >> > > >> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > >> > working as there would not be any if the >>bacteria were not oxidizing their > >> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > >> > though, indicated that while the >>filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > >> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > >> > especially dangerous though in your case, > >>provided you did adequate PWC's to > >> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > >> > > >> > Ray > >> > > >> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > >> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The >>liveliness just forces us to work a bit > >> > harder > >> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > >> > beliefs!.. > >> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > >> > way)... > >> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > >> > introduction of > >> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > >> > media or > >> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a >>"BALANCED" level by the introduction > >> > of an > >> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > >> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > >> > filter > >> > > and HOB media from one of my show >>tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > >> > And > >> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > >> > tests > >> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > >> > days.... > >> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > >> > additional > >> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > >> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > >> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ________________________________ > >> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > >> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > >> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi again, Livin, > >> > > > >> > > I approved your message for posting only > >>because I preferred to ask you in > >> > > >> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > >> > put as > >> > > much consideration into it. I've read over > >>the posts of Amber's and Bill's > >> > that > >> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I > >>can't see them having bad advice > >> > nor > >> > > being rude -- but only offering their >>opinions, as are you. As I just got > >> > done > >> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > >> > everyone > >> > > else here is. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > As for these other members offering bad >>advice, please don't consider it > >> > as such > >> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > >> > instead > >> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > >> > more > >> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > >> > offering you > >> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- >>before you make you final decisions > >> > on > >> > > them. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > >> > friendly. > >> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with > >>this, to please keep an open mind > >> > to > >> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > >> > post on > >> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before > >>posting your below message, which I > >> > > >> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. >>Know that I will though, and again > >> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > >> > just > >> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure > >>to these other products. You're > >> > > >> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > >> > understanding > >> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > >> > already > >> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor >>to recommend them to others if > >> > you > >> > > don't know the principles behind them. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > >> > here, as > >> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may >>pick them apart, or we may learn > >> > from > >> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > >> > > > >> > > Best, > >> > > > >> > > Ray > >> > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her > >>friends and she have chosen not to > >> > allow > >> > > > > >> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm >>not staying. The opinions are #1, > >> > bad > >> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, >>very reminiscent of highschool > >> > > >bullies. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > >> > > > > >> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who >>has come to share, befriend and > >> > become > >> > > > >> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > >> > > > There is another product called TLC. It >>is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > >> > must > >> > > >be > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I >>know of two specialty fish store > >> > owners > >> > > > > >> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have > >>a customer that want's instant > >> > > >> > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd >>be hesitant to use any product > >> > that is > >> > > > >> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > >> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > >> > > > overnight and kept within a certain >>temperature range (so in the winter > >> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > >> > frozen). > >> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, >>it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > >> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to > >>you, since I don't know all the > >> > > >> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > >> > to. > >> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can > >>explain it better than I can. It > >> > > >> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, >>I think it's kept refrigerated > >> > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > >> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know >>is that MANY people have shown > >> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > >> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > >> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > >> > > > > >> > > > Amber > >> > > > > >> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > >> > > > > living waste > >> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > >> > > > > stocked. I > >> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > >> > buggy > >> > > > > cocktails being sold. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > >> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > >> > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it > >>was expired before I bought it, > >> > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > >> > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been > >>proven to work from many people, > >> > I > >> > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > >> > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid >>too, but that doesn't make me an > >> > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on > >>fish keeping have changed quite > >> > a > >> > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I >>first bought a tank no one knew > >> > > > > about cycling it first. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Amber > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > With all due respect, although I > >>appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > >> > > > > > there is a > >> > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a >>territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > >> > is > >> > > > > > every > >> > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > >> > > > > least 37 > >> > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, >>brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > >> > We > >> > > > > > breed > >> > > > > > many species. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > >> > > > > > experience with > >> > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic >>product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > >> > > > > > (nutritious > >> > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > >> > > > > > bacteria, which > >> > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > >> > long > >> > > > > > and most > >> > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > >> > water > >> > > > > > does not > >> > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > >> > me, > >> > > > > > Amber, > >> > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a >>good, solid seed than with a live > >> > > > > > culture, > >> > > > > > which may only be partially alive. >>This is a great product. Please > >> > > > > > consider > >> > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > >> > > > > plants or > >> > > > > > coral. > >> > > > >> >>> >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > >> > mes/3263.asp > >> > > >p > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >p > >> > > > > >p > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > >> > when > >> > > > > > dealing > >> > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > >> > > > > > assure that > >> > > > > > they do not overstock. A species >>list per gallon, would be far more > >> > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day >>we can know what each and every > >> > > > > > person's > >> > > > > > setup is made of, it's very >>difficult to diagnose which system can > >> > > > > > handle how > >> > > > > > many of which fishes. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 > >>product for some plants. Keeping Java > >> > > > > > Moss, and > >> > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > >> > > > > > careful while > >> > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to > >>specific areas, logs and used on > >> > > > > > overhangs, > >> > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > >> > filters. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never >>unless you want to kill your fish. > >> > > > > > They don't > >> > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > >> > poop > >> > > > > > is not > >> > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Although I agree with some of what >>has been said, there are always > >> > > > > > going to be > >> > > > > > different ways that people and > >>experts do the same things, achieving > >> > > > > > mostly the > >> > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > >> > going > >> > > > > > about > >> > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit >>longer, but works better for me. > >> > > > > > The person > >> > > > > > asked for advice. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > No one way will be better than the > >>other. The best way to figure out > >> > > > > > what you'd > >> > > > > > like to do is to read all the >>responses, taking out what works best > >> > > > > > for your > >> > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if >>you do divide this tank in two, > >> > the > >> > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > >> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you >>get low light/nutrient plants, > >> > such > >> > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > >> > it), > >> > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > >> > green > >> > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > >> > any of > >> > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have >>tons of plants (they need pruned > >> > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > >> > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find >>other types of low light plants. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule >>and should really be gotten rid > >> > of, > >> > > > > > people often over stock their tanks > >>and cause health issues to their > >> > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When > >>stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > >> > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > >> > large > >> > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > >> > going > >> > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > >> > fish). > >> > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank >>you should either fishless cycle > >> > it > >> > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > >> > easily > >> > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > >> > called, > >> > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the > >>only proven product to immediately > >> > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > >> > year > >> > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically > >>improved it somehow I don't see > >> > how > >> > > > > > it's going to do anything now. > >>Nitrifying bacteria require water and > >> > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > >> > they > >> > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see > >>them as doing any good myself. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Amber > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to >>purchase a CO2 product to infuse > >> > the > >> > > > > > > plants and > >> > > > > > > water with. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > >> > filter > >> > > > > > > each side, > >> > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > >> > > > > > > Dividers, with > >> > > > > > > or without holes, still cause >>serious flow issues. Without flow, > >> > we > >> > > > > > > get algae > >> > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month >>before adding fish. Put in a product > >> > > > > called > >> > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > >> > product > >> > > > > > > that's > >> > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > >> > > > > better. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals >>in your filtration system. They > >> > > > > combat > >> > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to >>a certain amount. Change every > >> > six > >> > > > > > > months. > >> > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > >> > and > >> > > > > > > overstock, > >> > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > >> > adhere to > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > >> > per > >> > > > > > > inch, then > >> > > > > > > you will do just fine. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > >> > goldfish, > >> > > > > > > koi, > >> > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > >> > gouramis. > >> > > > > > > The > >> > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > >> > whose > >> > > > > > > poop > >> > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter > >>can't possibly micro-skim it out. > >> > The > >> > > > > > > poo just > >> > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > >> > fishes at > >> > > > > > > the top > >> > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > >> > water) or > >> > > > > > > you see > >> > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > >> > this > >> > > > > > > is caused > >> > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and > >>even if your test strip says it's > >> > in > >> > > > > > > the low > >> > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 >>nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > >> > go > >> > > > > > > high as > >> > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > >> > > > > dime each > >> > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > >> > your > >> > > > > > best > >> > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > >> > > > > discuss poo > >> > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? >>Well canisters are known as nitrate > >> > > > > > > factories. > >> > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and >>essentially, the poop comes back into > >> > the > >> > > > > > > system. > >> > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > >> > > > > > > manufacturer and > >> > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > >> > > > > > > canister only > >> > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > >> > > > > monthly/bi > >> > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > >> > other > >> > > > > > > filter. > >> > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > >> > filters > >> > > > > > > are often > >> > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > >> > isn't, > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > >> > gallon > >> > > > > > > tank fine, > >> > > > > > > within reason. Still, if > >>overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > >> > > > > > > filter up. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > >> > upper > >> > > > > > > number. > >> > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, > >>tops. If it says it's for a 20, > >> > > > > > > it's usually > >> > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > >> > > > > appropriately. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Your tank is going to be >>spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > >> > but > >> > > > > > > it's > >> > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather > >>than having issues down the line. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > >> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > >> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > >> > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > >> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > >> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) >>55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > >> > They > >> > > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank > >>however by the end of the week they > >> > > > > > > will be > >> > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > >> > food, > >> > > > > > > background, > >> > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, >>many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > >> > a > >> > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > >> > $60 > >> > > > > > > which was > >> > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so > >>my mother-in-law got it for me. > >> > I > >> > > > > > > was so > >> > > > > > > excited when i found it because I > >>knew that's what I really wanted > >> > to > >> > > > > > > get for my > >> > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still > >>have to get it home and set up > >> > and > >> > > > > > > allow it > >> > > > > > > to run for a few days to get >>everything to the proper equilibrium > >> > so I > >> > > > > > > don't > >> > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > >> > newbie > >> > > > > > > please > >> > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know >>please! I have everything needed for > >> > the > >> > > > > > > quick > >> > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > >> > vacuum, > >> > > > > > > but ill be > >> > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > >> > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And >>if so, is it worth it because I > >> > want > >> > > > > > > to divide > >> > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > >> > > > > > > different types > >> > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > >> > works. > >> > > > > > Also, > >> > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too > >>much about live plants in a tank > >> > and > >> > > > > > > i need > >> > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in > >>there because I will be putting > >> > > > > > > live-bearers > >> > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > >> > babies > >> > > > > > > as well, > >> > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > >> > place > >> > > > > > > for them > >> > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get >>them into the baby tank. So sorry > >> > for > >> > > > > > > the long > >> > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my >>hobby even more starting today > >> > and > >> > > > > > > some quick > >> > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any > >>advice regarding the care of my > >> > new > >> > > > > > > tank > >> > > > > > > would be great. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks much > >> > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > >> > > > > > Thank You. > >> > > > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , > >> > > > > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > > > important to the > >> > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of >>the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > > > > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > >> > unsubscribing, > >> > > > > > > you can > >> > > > > > > change your delivery option by > >>clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > >> > the > >> > > > > > > home > >> > > > > > > page. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the > >> > digest, > >> > > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; >>for the No E-Mail > >> > option > >> > > > > > > where you > >> > > > > > > will still be able to read messages > >>on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive > >> > individual > >> > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > >> > > > > Thank You. > >> > > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > > important to the > >> > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > >> > unsubscribing, > >> > > > > > you can > >> > > > > > change your delivery option by >>clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > >> > the > >> > > > > > home > >> > > > > > page. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to > >>receive the digest, > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > >> > option > >> > > > > > where you > >> > > > > > will still be able to read messages >>on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive individual > >> > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > >> > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Please, DELETE this line and >>EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > important to the > >> > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > If you do not want all of the groups > >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > > >> > > > > you can > >> > > > > change your delivery option by clicking > >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > > >> > > > > home > >> > > > > page. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, > >> > > > > which > >> > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>for the No E-Mail option > >> > > >> > > > > where you > >> > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive individual > >> > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > >> > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, >>DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > >> > to the > >> > > > >> > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the > >>original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > >> > LINE > >> > > >-> > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > >> > > > If you do not want all of the groups >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > you can > >> > > > >> > > > change your delivery option by clicking >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > home > >> > > > page. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, which > >> > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > >> > where you > >> > > > >> > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > >> > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > >> > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, >>DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > >> > to the > >> > > > >> > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the > >>original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > >> > LINE > >> > > >-> > >> > > > > >> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > >> > > > If you do not want all of the groups >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > you can > >> > > > >> > > > change your delivery option by clicking >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > home > >> > > > page. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, which > >> > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > >> > where you > >> > > > >> > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > >> > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > >> > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT > >that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING > >the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > >subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, > >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your > >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > >Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to > >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts > >at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for > >the No E-Mail option where you will still be able > >to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to > >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >>--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > >>> > >>> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > >>> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and >>>the water column last. Hey.... I > >>> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give > >>>me a bit of slack on missing the > >>> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > >>> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to > >>>have ya clarify some points on the > >>> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts >>>ago.. namely... If i dilute the > >>> ammonia content by going up in tank size, >>>wouldn't i be equally diluting the > >>> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > >>> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > >>> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > >>> > >>> Donna, > >>> > >>> I don't believe I've seen this ever being >>>recommended. If I have, it hasn't > >>> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > >>> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > >>> established filter still running on the >>>established tank at this same time. > >>> Naturally, as both would be sharing the > >>>available nutrients, when you remove the > >>> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > >>> catching up to do in getting its population up > >>>to its old level and wouldn't be > >>> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > >> > larger water changing in the meantime during > >>this period. Still -- excellent! > >>> > >>> Ray > >>> > >>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > >>> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _____ > >>> > > >>> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>>[mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > >>> > Behalf Of Ray > >>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > >>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Hi Bill, > >>> > > >>> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > >>> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the > >>>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > >>> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > >>> > overstocked) complement of fish to your > >>>aquarium the next day. The bacteria > >>> > will remain viable in your water column >>>and colonize your filter in short > >>> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > >>> > > >>> > If you're asking is this possible without >>>one of these bacteria additives, > >>> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > >>> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > >>> > depending directly upon the size of the >>>bioload this established filter is > >>> > populated to handle. > >> > > > >>> > A portion of the media from another >>>already established and cycled filter > >>> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new > >>>filter in a newly set up tank, but > >>> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > >>> > greater or lesser extent -- of a >>>mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > >>> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > >>> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > >>> > repopulated from this "seeding." > >>> > > >>> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed > >>>the ability to promote this when > >>> > you stated, "by the introduction of an > >>>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > >>> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > >>> > amount of this material added to your new >>>tank, you'd be able to add that > >>> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > >>> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > >>> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > >>> > slight set back for the bacteria. It >>>should always be assumed anyhow, that > >>> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > >>> > necessarily control the same amount of >>>waste products of another tank when > >>> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > >>> > > >>> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in > >>>your established aquarium and you > >>> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's > >>>filter media to a new tank, you can > >>> > expect that your new tank should support >>>at least two (but perhaps not yet > >>> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of > >>>the two different tanks also has > >>> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > >>> > established filter media. While a colony of > >>>nitrifying bacteria may already > >>> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > >>> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > >>> > their waste products in ppm (parts per > >>>million) would be only 1/3 as great, > >>> > offering this population of bacteria only >>>1/3 of the food being offered to > >>> > the now at any one time as compared to the > >>>higher concentration of this same > >>> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, > >>>with these same 12 fish, even with > >>> > moving the entire established filter to this > >>>new tank (and even if you used > >>> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new >>>120 gallon tank, along with new > >>> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > >>> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as > >>>much organic waste per part of > >>> > water in this new tank; it would create a >>>partial die-off of the bacteria > >>> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > >> > > > >>> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > >>> > working as there would not be any if the >>>bacteria were not oxidizing their > >>> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > >>> > though, indicated that while the >>>filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > >>> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > >>> > especially dangerous though in your case, > >>>provided you did adequate PWC's to > >>> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > >>> > > >>> > Ray > >>> > > >>> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > >>> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The > >>>liveliness just forces us to work a bit > >>> > harder > >>> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > >>> > beliefs!.. > >>> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a >>>challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > >>> > way)... > >>> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > >>> > introduction of > >>> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > >>> > media or > >>> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a > >>>"BALANCED" level by the introduction > >>> > of an > >>> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > >>> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. >>>water treated with prime.. a sponge > >> > > filter > >>> > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... > >>>the introduction of 10 tets... > >>> > And > >>> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw >>>some nitrate spike to 10... a few > >>> > tests > >>> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > >>> > days.... > >>> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > >>> > additional > >>> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > >>> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > >>> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > ________________________________ > >>> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > >>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > >>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi again, Livin, > >>> > > > >>> > > I approved your message for posting only > >>>because I preferred to ask you in > >>> > > >>> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask >>>you off-line where you may not > >>> > put as > >>> > > much consideration into it. I've read over > >>>the posts of Amber's and Bill's > >>> > that > >>> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I > >>>can't see them having bad advice > >>> > nor > >>> > > being rude -- but only offering their > >>>opinions, as are you. As I just got > >>> > done > >>> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are >>>entitled to your opinions, just as > >>> > everyone > >>> > > else here is. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > As for these other members offering bad >>>advice, please don't consider it > >>> > as such > >>> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > >>> > instead > >>> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > >>> > more > >>> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > >>> > offering you > >>> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- > >>>before you make you final decisions > >>> > on > >>> > > them. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > >>> > friendly. > >>> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with > >>>this, to please keep an open mind > >>> > to > >>> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > >>> > post on > >>> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before > >>>posting your below message, which I > >>> > > >>> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. > >>>Know that I will though, and again > >>> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm >>>offering. While I may be wrong, it > >>> > just > >>> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure > >>>to these other products. You're > >>> > > >>> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > >>> > understanding > >>> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > >>> > already > >>> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them >>>nor to recommend them to others if > >> > > you > >>> > > don't know the principles behind them. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > >>> > here, as > >>> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may > >>>pick them apart, or we may learn > >>> > from > >>> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > >>> > > > >>> > > Best, > >>> > > > >>> > > Ray > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her > >>>friends and she have chosen not to > >>> > allow > >>> > > > > >>> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm >>>not staying. The opinions are #1, > >>> > bad > >>> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. >>>#3, very reminiscent of highschool > >>> > > >bullies. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who > >>>has come to share, befriend and > >>> > become > >>> > > > >>> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ________________________________ > >>> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > >>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >>> > > > > >>> > > > There is another product called TLC. >>>It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > >>> > must > >>> > > >be > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I > >>>know of two specialty fish store > >> > > owners > >>> > > > > >>> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they > >>>have a customer that want's instant > >>> > > >>> > > > results, it's the product they use. >>>I'd be hesitant to use any product > >>> > that is > >>> > > > >>> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >>> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > >>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >>> > > > > >>> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > >>> > > > overnight and kept within a certain > >>>temperature range (so in the winter > >>> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > >>> > frozen). > >>> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's > >>>too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > >>> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to > >>>you, since I don't know all the > >>> > > >>> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue >>>as effectively as I would like > >>> > to. > >>> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can > >>>explain it better than I can. It > >>> > > >>> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a >>>bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > >>> > > > (which puts the bacteria into >>>hibernation from what I understand, but > >>> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I >>>know is that MANY people have shown > >>> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've >>>never heard anyone other than you > >>> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > >>> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Amber > >>> > > > > >>> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > >>> > > > > living waste > >>> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live >>>bacteria, not unless bought when first > >>> > > > > stocked. I > >>> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > >>> > buggy > >>> > > > > cocktails being sold. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > ________________________________ > >>> > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > >>> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > >>> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > >>> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > >>> > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it > >>>was expired before I bought it, > >>> > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way >>>I wouldn't waste my money on it > >>> > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been > >>>proven to work from many people, > >> > > I > >>> > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > >>> > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid >>>too, but that doesn't make me an > >>> > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on > >>>fish keeping have changed quite > >>> > a > >>> > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I > >>>first bought a tank no one knew > >>> > > > > about cycling it first. > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Amber > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > ><br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51306	From: Bill	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

Bill here on the Walstad tear down. I agree.. if you have to tear them down, you can salvage the sand or gravel over the soil but the soil will be a washout. Interestingly enough, I've sold in the last 3 months about 200 gallons of tanks.. make that closer to 300.. in which the buyers didn't want the substrate disturbed. Let's keep the bio's going and take the water level down to a manageable level to load and transport. But really, trying to salvage the substrate is a matter of economics. A 2.00 dollar bag of soil and about 6 bucks of spfs for a 55 makes it worth while to do a total replace if you have to tear it down completely. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 1:10:42 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Moving a walstad tank is next to impossible. You have to break it down and start over with fresh soil and gravel. Once you start to remove all the gravel/soil it kinda all mixes together and getting the gravel mixed out is such a chore that just getting new gravel is so much easier. Walstad tanks can last years before they need to be torn down and start over, but I've never seen one that required tearing down and starting over. Mine needs new silicone which is the only reason I need to tear it down and start over. I'm assuming that at some point the plants use up all the nutrients in the soil, but aren't fish constantly supply new nutrients? Is it really necessary to tear down and start over with a walstad tank? Perhaps I need to ask Diane why, LOL. Amber On 5/4/2011 8:16 AM, joe t wrote: > > Donna: > I understood Bill to say he was setting up a new tank. I am assuming > in addition to the old one. > > Unless I missed something (and that is possible since this is one hell > of a long string, LOL) Bill is using the Wahlstad method for his tank. > You advised, "to cover all bases, use half the substrate from the > original tank in the new tank...". Well, Bill has soil under his large > grained sand using this method. How is he going to get that substrate > out of the old tank without making one hell of a mess? Then putting it > in the new tank......whoah! an even bigger mess. I never tried this > method. ......Well, I did, a long time ago (30 years, maybe +) and > everyone told me I was crazy. Then when I had to clean out the tank I > had such a job that I thought I was crazy, too! And that was the end > of that idea.....for me, anyway. > > Can you or Bill explain to me how to go about doing this, please? > > joe t > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51307	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

Great having gallons and gallons of water now gallons and gallons of conditioner. LOL. I don't know if my land rover could take all that weight. lol.I am happy that everything is looking good with my tank.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2011 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help   You don't need a land rover for the water conditioner, LOL. I get mine in a gallon jug and that lasts me a couple of months of regular water changes, you might go through it faster right now since your tank is still cycling but it sounds like your tank is getting better :) Amber On 5/3/2011 10:44 PM, Cindy Johnston wrote: > > I think i will go out to look at the filters. I dont know if I want a > bio wheel or a canister. Any suggestion? I love the way my tank is > looking right now. I don't know if i want to add extra weight to my > Land Rover with water. I already buy 308 pounds of dog food a month. I > don't know if my car would hold more weight added with water and dog > food. lol I'm kidding. But not kidding about the dog food. I am > excited that I found this group. I don't know what I would do. You > guys helped me out a lot. I been saving the messages so I can look > back to see what was said so I have something to go by on. > Thanks so much. > > > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind > Cannot Understand. > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@... > <mailto:simmonds.john%40ntlworld.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2011 5:20 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New and need help > > > Hi Cindy, > > I would always opt for two filters instead of one on any tank-especially a > larger one like yours for a number of reasons. If one of them is out of > service for any length of time the other one will keep your tank ticking > over, you also probably have more media area for the good bugs to colonise > on 2 filters than just one even if it is rated for a tank of your size. > Finally 2 filters ensure more of the tank is covered with current from the > outfalls. One filter running at one end of a tank can leave the other end > quite stagnant. Bill is spot-on about the carbon not doing much for you-I > don't know why manufacturers are obsessed with telling us we need carbon > based media in just about every filter when in reality it is seldom > needed. > Inert foam/sponges/ceramic chips etc in place of the carbon will serve > you & > your fish far better. > > I agree with you that this is an expensive hobby of you listen to the big > store staff-it can be relatively inexpensive but you have to make that > initial outlay of good equipment. One of the best pieces of advice I > had was > getting a tank as large as my budget or floor space would allow, true this > was specifically for Goldfish keeping as they kick out a lot of waste > but I > think generally this is also a good rule of thumb. It is a false > economy to > start small & work your way up because each upgrade costs a fortune in > time, > money & effort whereas a couple of baby fish in a huge tank is great > because > not only have you done all the hard work but they have a stable & familiar > home to grow up in. The only thing that cost me a lot of money now is the > amount of food several large Comets will get through!! > > Water changes-I think there is a good device called a Python in the US > which takes the back ache out of water changes. Don't know much about them > but I'm sure someone will jump in & tell you all about them. > > Plants-I love real plants although I have tried many varieties before > finding something hardy enough to survive my Goldfish's determined > foraging > that is Vallis. I plant them in regular clay pots from the garden centre & > use aquatic potting compound by Tetra. I have to cover the top of the soil > with pebbles or the fish dig them up & make a mess. > > Water Changes-Like Bill said, get yourself some quality conditioner like > Aqua Safe or Stress Coat to remove the chlorine or chloramine from > your tap > water but make sure to temperature match the new water before adding > to your > tank. Using bottled water has a couple of obvious disadvantages-it has no > trace elements which are beneficial to fish & equally importantly it would > cost you a fortune for the amounts you would need but at least you > have your > Land Rover to carry it all home from the store!! > > Cycling Your Tank-I would always opt for a fishless cycle as using > fish can > be extremely stressful if not fatal, there are some serious toxic issues > going on during a cycle. This is a good site about it, I think the diagram > is excellent: http://malawicichlids.com/mw01017.htm > > This is always worth remembering: 'Take Care Of Your Water & Your > Water Will > Take Care Of Your Fish' > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 3 May 2011 21:12, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>>wrote: > > > > > > > I would like to add something else, and ask some questions, too. You > made > > mention of adding "bacteria" to the tank, can you tell us what > product that > > was? > > > > There are some bacteria starters, such as BioSpira, which is a live > > bacteria culture that is added all at once to "instantly" cycle a > tank, but > > in order for it to work, the total population in the tank must be > added all > > at the same time. To wait before adding fish after a product such as > that > > means no food for the large bacteria population just added, which > causes die > > off of much of that bacteria. To not add enough fish/waste to the > tank to > > compensate the amount of bacteria added, same end result... This can > cause a > > multitude of issues in the water chemistry, including a bacterial bloom, > > ammonia and nitrite spikes that can go off the chart when reading > the test > > results, and a very toxic situation for the fish. This can also be > difficult > > to clean up and is usually best to start over without the bacterial > > supplement. > > > > Bacteria that die in mass quantity will cause ammonia to increase, > > defeating the purpose of using the product in the first place. > > > > Can you test (or get tested) your water and post the results for > ammonia, > > nitrite, nitrate, and pH? This will help us to better determine > where your > > water chemistry is at and how best to handle it safely. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi my name is Cindy and I own some fish. 1 Dalmatian molly 1 orange > > molly, 2 orange balloon mollies, 1 betta and 1 ghost shrimp. When I > got them > > they were little babies living in a 5 gallon tank. I just got a 55 > gallon > > tall tank and cleaned everything. Set it all up. Put in the water > and water > > conditioner and bacteria. I did this yesterday. I added my fish to > the tank > > and when I woke up this morning my tank was cloudy. A whitish color. > There > > are times that the tank looks like it is clearing up and then it > gets cloudy > > again. Is there something I can do to fix this? Is this something I > need to > > worry about? My fish will not live in my 5 gallon tank. They are to > big for > > it and they seem to enjoy the so called freedom well space. > > > Thanks for the help and I want to learn more about fish and see pics. > > > > > > Cindy > > > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind > Cannot > > Understand. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51308	From: haecklers	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New and need help

It depends on what you're starting with - if it's just chlorine, sodium thiosuphate is pretty cheap and 1 drop treats a gallon so it lasts forever. I got it powdered from aquabid - enough dry to make a gallon of water treatment solution. At one drop at a time, that treats a LOT of water! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > You don't need a land rover for the water conditioner, LOL. > I get mine in a gallon jug and that lasts me a couple of months of > regular water changes, you might go through it faster right now since > your tank is still cycling but it sounds like your tank is getting better :) > > Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51309	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

Charles, Truth of the matter is that everyone has lapses in removing the disclaimer at the end of messages replied to. I have been guilty of that a bit more lately than normal. I blame the drugs that the doctors are forcing down my throat and pumping directly into my bloodstream (bunch of quacks). If fact, I stopped counting at 5 disclaimers at the end of your message to which I am replying Yahoo does funky things from time to time, and there is nothing anyone can do to control that other than to complain--not that it ever does a lot of good. Other than not continually chastising the members publically for leaving the disclaimers on the messages, which, of course would create more ill will than good, I do not see any of the rules being violated or stepped upon by the moderators of this group. If you feel that the "disclaimer removal rule" needs to be enforced, please do speak out to the members stating your displeasure that they are not being removed. And, remember to remove them in your replies to the list. Say hi to my buds at the Missouri Aquarium Society. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Harrison Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 12:06 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Yes I can and I rechecked it. I never made a change one way or the other. Neither did the settings. Problem is time, my time. I can't afford to take the time to read 5 or 10 - 25K messages from a message board that normally sends messages which are averaging 3 to 6 K. This list is monitored. There are rules that have been ignored. Rules - guidelines - whatever. And the leaders are stepping all over them. It's an irritation that drives experienced knowledge away. If I subscribe to the digest of the list, I get a message once or twice a day. It is full of questions and answers that may or may not be in the best interest of the fish or fish keeper. Then it is too late for me to say something meaningful. If I get the instant message and have a chance to read itand respond meaningfully, you guys get 40 years of experience and knowledge. I am the Chairman of a national tropical fish organization, member and council member of one of the most active aquarium societies in the US. I give talks around the country. My Ph D is in Chemistry. But if the leaders of this group can't can't follow their own rules - I don't have time either. Charles H ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Charles >are you able to access your memebership settings >to change back to individuals messages? > >mike g > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: charles@... >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 9:48 am >Subject: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > > > > Some how I seem to have been put on the Digest > >form of the list. I normally get messages which > >are 4 to 6K long and now within the last few days > >the messages I am receiving are 25, 27 39 and > >even 40 K and they are full of previous posts and > >trailers which I have been told to cut out of my > >posts. > >Ray's last post was 42K long. I know he is long > >winded, but this is quite excessive and I have no > >desire to read all that over and over again. So, > >I just delete them. I may be missing something > >but there were some rules you guys had about > >being short and to the point and cut out bottom > >mess. > >Am I wrong? > >Charles H > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >Bill, > >I hadn't seen that post yet, that you mentioned > >about the ammonia content be diluted as the tank > >goes up in size (I'll look for it though), but > >not to make you feel worse today, have another > >cup of coffee to help you cope < g >. If I'm not > >mistaken of what you're looking for, I covered > >all that in my post to you at 5:22 AM this > >morning (Message # 51252 in the archives), when I > >talked about the hypothetical 40 and 120 gallon > >tanks and their related ammonia contents. > >Ray > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > >> > >> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > >> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and >>the water column last. Hey.... I > >> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give > >>me a bit of slack on missing the > >> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > >> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to > >>have ya clarify some points on the > >> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts ago.. namely... If i dilute the > >> ammonia content by going up in tank size, >>wouldn't i be equally diluting the > >> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > >> > >> Donna, > >> > >> I don't believe I've seen this ever being >>recommended. If I have, it hasn't > >> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > >> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > >> established filter still running on the established tank at this same time. > >> Naturally, as both would be sharing the > >>available nutrients, when you remove the > >> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > >> catching up to do in getting its population up > >>to its old level and wouldn't be > >> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > >> larger water changing in the meantime during > >>this period. Still -- excellent! > >> > >> Ray > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > >> > > >> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > >> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > _____ > >> > > >> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > >> > Behalf Of Ray > >> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > >> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hi Bill, > >> > > >> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > >> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the >>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > >> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > >> > overstocked) complement of fish to your >>aquarium the next day. The bacteria > >> > will remain viable in your water column and colonize your filter in short > >> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > >> > > >> > If you're asking is this possible without >>one of these bacteria additives, > >> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > >> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > >> > depending directly upon the size of the >>bioload this established filter is > >> > populated to handle. > >> > > >> > A portion of the media from another already established and cycled filter > >> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new > >>filter in a newly set up tank, but > >> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > >> > greater or lesser extent -- of a mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > >> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > >> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > >> > repopulated from this "seeding." > >> > > >> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed > >>the ability to promote this when > >> > you stated, "by the introduction of an >>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > >> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > >> > amount of this material added to your new tank, you'd be able to add that > >> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > >> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > >> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > >> > slight set back for the bacteria. It should >>always be assumed anyhow, that > >> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > >> > necessarily control the same amount of >>waste products of another tank when > >> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > >> > > >> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in > >>your established aquarium and you > >> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's > >>filter media to a new tank, you can > >> > expect that your new tank should support at >>least two (but perhaps not yet > >> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of >>the two different tanks also has > >> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > >> > established filter media. While a colony of >>nitrifying bacteria may already > >> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > >> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > >> > their waste products in ppm (parts per >>million) would be only 1/3 as great, > >> > offering this population of bacteria only >>1/3 of the food being offered to > >> > the now at any one time as compared to the > >>higher concentration of this same > >> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, >>with these same 12 fish, even with > >> > moving the entire established filter to >>this new tank (and even if you used > >> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new >>120 gallon tank, along with new > >> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > >> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be >>as much organic waste per part of > >> > water in this new tank; it would create a partial die-off of the bacteria > >> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > >> > > >> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > >> > working as there would not be any if the >>bacteria were not oxidizing their > >> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > >> > though, indicated that while the >>filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > >> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > >> > especially dangerous though in your case, > >>provided you did adequate PWC's to > >> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > >> > > >> > Ray > >> > > >> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > >> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The >>liveliness just forces us to work a bit > >> > harder > >> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > >> > beliefs!.. > >> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > >> > way)... > >> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > >> > introduction of > >> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > >> > media or > >> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a >>"BALANCED" level by the introduction > >> > of an > >> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > >> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. water treated with prime.. a sponge > >> > filter > >> > > and HOB media from one of my show >>tanks... the introduction of 10 tets... > >> > And > >> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw some nitrate spike to 10... a few > >> > tests > >> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > >> > days.... > >> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > >> > additional > >> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > >> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > >> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ________________________________ > >> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > >> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > >> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Hi again, Livin, > >> > > > >> > > I approved your message for posting only > >>because I preferred to ask you in > >> > > >> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask you off-line where you may not > >> > put as > >> > > much consideration into it. I've read over > >>the posts of Amber's and Bill's > >> > that > >> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I > >>can't see them having bad advice > >> > nor > >> > > being rude -- but only offering their >>opinions, as are you. As I just got > >> > done > >> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are entitled to your opinions, just as > >> > everyone > >> > > else here is. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > As for these other members offering bad >>advice, please don't consider it > >> > as such > >> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > >> > instead > >> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > >> > more > >> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > >> > offering you > >> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- >>before you make you final decisions > >> > on > >> > > them. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > >> > friendly. > >> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with > >>this, to please keep an open mind > >> > to > >> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > >> > post on > >> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before > >>posting your below message, which I > >> > > >> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. >>Know that I will though, and again > >> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm offering. While I may be wrong, it > >> > just > >> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure > >>to these other products. You're > >> > > >> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > >> > understanding > >> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > >> > already > >> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them nor >>to recommend them to others if > >> > you > >> > > don't know the principles behind them. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > >> > here, as > >> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may >>pick them apart, or we may learn > >> > from > >> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > >> > > > >> > > Best, > >> > > > >> > > Ray > >> > > > >> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > >> > > > > >> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her > >>friends and she have chosen not to > >> > allow > >> > > > > >> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm >>not staying. The opinions are #1, > >> > bad > >> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. #3, >>very reminiscent of highschool > >> > > >bullies. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > >> > > > > >> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who >>has come to share, befriend and > >> > become > >> > > > >> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > >> > > > There is another product called TLC. It >>is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > >> > must > >> > > >be > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I >>know of two specialty fish store > >> > owners > >> > > > > >> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they have > >>a customer that want's instant > >> > > >> > > > results, it's the product they use. I'd >>be hesitant to use any product > >> > that is > >> > > > >> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > >> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > >> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > >> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > >> > > > overnight and kept within a certain >>temperature range (so in the winter > >> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > >> > frozen). > >> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, >>it's too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > >> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to > >>you, since I don't know all the > >> > > >> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue as effectively as I would like > >> > to. > >> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can > >>explain it better than I can. It > >> > > >> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a bottle, >>I think it's kept refrigerated > >> > > > (which puts the bacteria into hibernation from what I understand, but > >> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I know >>is that MANY people have shown > >> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've never heard anyone other than you > >> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > >> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > >> > > > > >> > > > Amber > >> > > > > >> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > >> > > > > living waste > >> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live bacteria, not unless bought when first > >> > > > > stocked. I > >> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > >> > buggy > >> > > > > cocktails being sold. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > >> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 9:01:35 PM > >> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Yes I said I used it a year ago, as I said in my post, and it did > >> > > > > nothing to cycle my tank. So either it > >>was expired before I bought it, > >> > > > > or it just doesn't work. Either way I wouldn't waste my money on it > >> > > > > again. Dr Tim's one and only has been > >>proven to work from many people, > >> > I > >> > > > > cannot say the same about Biozyme. > >> > > > > And I've had fish since I was a kid >>too, but that doesn't make me an > >> > > > > expert, I've learned that the ideas on > >>fish keeping have changed quite > >> > a > >> > > > > bit in just the last 10 years. When I >>first bought a tank no one knew > >> > > > > about cycling it first. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Amber > >> > > > > > >> > > > > On 5/2/2011 7:55 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > With all due respect, although I > >>appreciate your opinion of Biozyme, > >> > > > > > there is a > >> > > > > > very good reason it's being recommended. Have you ever used it? > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I feel as if I am a new fish in a >>territorial tank! Lol. My opinion > >> > is > >> > > > > > every > >> > > > > > bit as important as the next guy's. Especially with my expertise. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I have had fish since I was a kid, about 10/11/12, and that's at > >> > > > > least 37 > >> > > > > > years. I have planted tanks, >>brackish, and saltwater reef systems. > >> > We > >> > > > > > breed > >> > > > > > many species. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > I am considered an expert...just like everyone else here, and my > >> > > > > > experience with > >> > > > > > Biozyme is it is a fantastic >>product. Wasting money on a nutrifying > >> > > > > > (nutritious > >> > > > > > bacterial product), is not as good as using a culture of dried > >> > > > > > bacteria, which > >> > > > > > will grow immediately. The liquified version does not survive as > >> > long > >> > > > > > and most > >> > > > > > have been on the shelf awhile, without circulation or food. When > >> > water > >> > > > > > does not > >> > > > > > circulate, it doesn't feed bacteria or move to keep it live. Tell > >> > me, > >> > > > > > Amber, > >> > > > > > what is feeding and nutrifying the bacteria in the bottles? > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Therefore, it's best to go with a >>good, solid seed than with a live > >> > > > > > culture, > >> > > > > > which may only be partially alive. >>This is a great product. Please > >> > > > > > consider > >> > > > > > trying it. I have used it many, many years. I do not lose fish, > >> > > > > plants or > >> > > > > > coral. > >> > > > >> >>> >>>http://www.terrificpets.com/pet_supplies/fish/conditioners-additives/enzy > >> > mes/3263.asp > >> > > >p > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >p > >> > > > > >p > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule of thumb is garbage. Agreed! It does need to go, but > >> > when > >> > > > > > dealing > >> > > > > > with new people who are new to freshwater, it's a good helper to > >> > > > > > assure that > >> > > > > > they do not overstock. A species >>list per gallon, would be far more > >> > > > > > appropriate, but still, til the day >>we can know what each and every > >> > > > > > person's > >> > > > > > setup is made of, it's very >>difficult to diagnose which system can > >> > > > > > handle how > >> > > > > > many of which fishes. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Correct, you do not need a CO2 > >>product for some plants. Keeping Java > >> > > > > > Moss, and > >> > > > > > Java Fern, however, can lead to a total tank takeover, so be very > >> > > > > > careful while > >> > > > > > keeping them. I keep mine pruned to > >>specific areas, logs and used on > >> > > > > > overhangs, > >> > > > > > because it is a real creeper, and tends to get stuck in the HOB > >> > filters. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Never use a sponge filter. Never >>unless you want to kill your fish. > >> > > > > > They don't > >> > > > > > filter. They just skim the water for ingredients and debris. The > >> > poop > >> > > > > > is not > >> > > > > > trapped, because it's microscopic, and it does pass through. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Carbon is not necessary. True. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Although I agree with some of what >>has been said, there are always > >> > > > > > going to be > >> > > > > > different ways that people and > >>experts do the same things, achieving > >> > > > > > mostly the > >> > > > > > same results. My tanks are show tanks. I have a different way of > >> > going > >> > > > > > about > >> > > > > > doing things, which may take a bit >>longer, but works better for me. > >> > > > > > The person > >> > > > > > asked for advice. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > No one way will be better than the > >>other. The best way to figure out > >> > > > > > what you'd > >> > > > > > like to do is to read all the >>responses, taking out what works best > >> > > > > > for your > >> > > > > > situation, but I do caution that if >>you do divide this tank in two, > >> > the > >> > > > > > filtration will become insufficient. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@ > >> > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>>; > >> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 7:28:54 PM > >> > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > You don't need a CO2 product if you >>get low light/nutrient plants, > >> > such > >> > > > > > as java grass, wisteria (water lettuce is often a common name for > >> > it), > >> > > > > > and anubias. Those are just a few examples, you can have a pretty > >> > green > >> > > > > > tank in low lighting with all of these plants. I don't use CO2 in > >> > any of > >> > > > > > my freshwater tanks and they have >>tons of plants (they need pruned > >> > > > > > weekly or they will quickly over take all the room). Check out > >> > > > > > www.plantgeek.net to help you find >>other types of low light plants. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > The 1" rule is a fish killing rule >>and should really be gotten rid > >> > of, > >> > > > > > people often over stock their tanks > >>and cause health issues to their > >> > > > > > fish because of this "rule". When > >>stocking a 50-55 gallon tank stick > >> > > > > > with fish that will not grow over 3-4 inches (max) and if you get > >> > large > >> > > > > > fish only get at most 2-3 (and if you do get large fish they are > >> > going > >> > > > > > to require more cleaning, as they eat and poop more than smaller > >> > fish). > >> > > > > > When initially stocking a new tank >>you should either fishless cycle > >> > it > >> > > > > > with some plain Ammonia from the hardware store (which will take > >> > easily > >> > > > > > 5-6 weeks or more to finish the cycle safely), or get a product > >> > called, > >> > > > > > "Dr. Tim's one and Only" It's the > >>only proven product to immediately > >> > > > > > cycle your tank. Biozyme did nothing for me when I used it over a > >> > year > >> > > > > > ago, so unless they have drastically > >>improved it somehow I don't see > >> > how > >> > > > > > it's going to do anything now. > >>Nitrifying bacteria require water and > >> > > > > > nutrients to survive, so if they are in some sort of powder form > >> > they > >> > > > > > cannot still be alive, so I don't see > >>them as doing any good myself. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Amber > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > On 5/2/2011 11:28 AM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Hi Chloe, > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If planting the tank, be sure to >>purchase a CO2 product to infuse > >> > the > >> > > > > > > plants and > >> > > > > > > water with. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > The dividers work, within reason. You will need to separately > >> > filter > >> > > > > > > each side, > >> > > > > > > or you will run into issues with filtration and water quality. > >> > > > > > > Dividers, with > >> > > > > > > or without holes, still cause >>serious flow issues. Without flow, > >> > we > >> > > > > > > get algae > >> > > > > > > and other things...flow's essential. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Let the tank cycle one month >>before adding fish. Put in a product > >> > > > > called > >> > > > > > > Biozyme (I swear by it) to start the cycle. Don't use a cycle > >> > product > >> > > > > > > that's > >> > > > > > > liquid, only use the powder. It works faster and in my opinion, > >> > > > > better. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Always submerse zeolyte crystals >>in your filtration system. They > >> > > > > combat > >> > > > > > > ammonia/nitrites and nitrates, to >>a certain amount. Change every > >> > six > >> > > > > > > months. > >> > > > > > > If you chose to ignore the 1" of fish per 1.5 to 2 gallon rule, > >> > and > >> > > > > > > overstock, > >> > > > > > > then it's not going to do a thing, but if you are careful to > >> > adhere to > >> > > > > > > the > >> > > > > > > standards, keeping in mind the species which require more space > >> > per > >> > > > > > > inch, then > >> > > > > > > you will do just fine. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Species which require more than 1" of fish per 2 gallons are > >> > goldfish, > >> > > > > > > koi, > >> > > > > > > plecostamous, and Oscars, also some other large cichlids and > >> > gouramis. > >> > > > > > > The > >> > > > > > > reason? They exude higher amounts of poop, or they are the type > >> > whose > >> > > > > > > poop > >> > > > > > > dissipates so fast that a filter > >>can't possibly micro-skim it out. > >> > The > >> > > > > > > poo just > >> > > > > > > feeds back into the tank when that happens, and then you see > >> > fishes at > >> > > > > > > the top > >> > > > > > > breating hard, having issues balancing (always caused by bad > >> > water) or > >> > > > > > > you see > >> > > > > > > white spots and red streaks in the tails and fins. Most always, > >> > this > >> > > > > > > is caused > >> > > > > > > by ammonia/nitrite poisoning and > >>even if your test strip says it's > >> > in > >> > > > > > > the low > >> > > > > > > zone, it should never be above 0 >>nitrite, 0 ammona. Nitrates can > >> > go > >> > > > > > > high as > >> > > > > > > 10ppm in fresh systems, without trouble. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Goldfish - 1" of goldfish per 10 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Plecostamus 1" of pleco per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Oscars and cichlididae who are large - 1" per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > Giant gourami - 1" per 5 gallons. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > It's pretty easy. These species, although sometimes sold for a > >> > > > > dime each > >> > > > > > > (goldfish poor things) are so misunderstood and mis-handled. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If going with a canister filter, please be careful. They can be > >> > your > >> > > > > > best > >> > > > > > > friend, or your tank's worst enemy. Remember above where we > >> > > > > discuss poo > >> > > > > > > siphoning back into the tank? >>Well canisters are known as nitrate > >> > > > > > > factories. > >> > > > > > > Why? Well, they fill up and >>essentially, the poop comes back into > >> > the > >> > > > > > > system. > >> > > > > > > They often cause an entire tank breakdown, simply because the > >> > > > > > > manufacturer and > >> > > > > > > the petstore guy told some poor unsuspecting person that their > >> > > > > > > canister only > >> > > > > > > needed maintenance every other month. The truth is, they need > >> > > > > monthly/bi > >> > > > > > > monthly maintenance, cleaning and media changes...just like any > >> > other > >> > > > > > > filter. > >> > > > > > > In salt tanks, weekly. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Filters - when you choose a filter, be sure to remember that > >> > filters > >> > > > > > > are often > >> > > > > > > under-rated as well. In fact, I don't have any clue of one that > >> > isn't, > >> > > > > > > with > >> > > > > > > exception of the Marineland 350, which seems to handle the 50 > >> > gallon > >> > > > > > > tank fine, > >> > > > > > > within reason. Still, if > >>overcrowded, the tank's going to fill any > >> > > > > > > filter up. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > What I do with filters - If rated as a 20/40, never go by the > >> > upper > >> > > > > > > number. > >> > > > > > > They only handle the lower number, > >>tops. If it says it's for a 20, > >> > > > > > > it's usually > >> > > > > > > for a 10. Using that scale, it helps to fill the tank up > >> > > > > appropriately. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Your tank is going to be >>spectacular. :) You will really enjoy it > >> > but > >> > > > > > > it's > >> > > > > > > worth starting correctly, rather > >>than having issues down the line. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ________________________________ > >> > > > > > > From: Chloe Hopper <chloelikeohman@ > >> > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:chloelikeohman%40yahoo.com>>; > >> > > > > > > To: "aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>"; > >> > > > > <aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com >><mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife%40yahoogroups.com>>; > >> > > > > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 11:17:32 AM > >> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > So today I purchased a new(to me) >>55 gallon aquarium for my fish. > >> > They > >> > > > > > > were > >> > > > > > > previously in a 20 gallon tank > >>however by the end of the week they > >> > > > > > > will be > >> > > > > > > enjoying their new, much bigger home. It came with the filter > >> > food, > >> > > > > > > background, > >> > > > > > > gravel, decor, hood, air stone, >>many pumps, stand, 9 goldfish and > >> > a > >> > > > > > > plecostomus(which i let go into my pond) and much more, all for > >> > $60 > >> > > > > > > which was > >> > > > > > > GREAT! my birthday is coming up so > >>my mother-in-law got it for me. > >> > I > >> > > > > > > was so > >> > > > > > > excited when i found it because I > >>knew that's what I really wanted > >> > to > >> > > > > > > get for my > >> > > > > > > birthday and look I got it. I still > >>have to get it home and set up > >> > and > >> > > > > > > allow it > >> > > > > > > to run for a few days to get >>everything to the proper equilibrium > >> > so I > >> > > > > > > don't > >> > > > > > > have any sudden deaths. If anyone has any advice for a big tank > >> > newbie > >> > > > > > > please > >> > > > > > > dont hesitate to let me know >>please! I have everything needed for > >> > the > >> > > > > > > quick > >> > > > > > > start and overall long time care of the tank other than the > >> > vacuum, > >> > > > > > > but ill be > >> > > > > > > getting that Friday. I need some advice on > >> > > > > > > a tank divider, Do they work? And >>if so, is it worth it because I > >> > want > >> > > > > > > to divide > >> > > > > > > it into two different sections for two different themes with 2 > >> > > > > > > different types > >> > > > > > > of fish but im really not sure if its worth it or if it even > >> > works. > >> > > > > > Also, > >> > > > > > > planting my tank, I dont know too > >>much about live plants in a tank > >> > and > >> > > > > > > i need > >> > > > > > > some suggestions on what to put in > >>there because I will be putting > >> > > > > > > live-bearers > >> > > > > > > in there and I am going to need plenty of hiding places for the > >> > babies > >> > > > > > > as well, > >> > > > > > > however I will be isolating them once they're born but I need a > >> > place > >> > > > > > > for them > >> > > > > > > to seek shelter until I can get >>them into the baby tank. So sorry > >> > for > >> > > > > > > the long > >> > > > > > > post but I am hoping to expand my >>hobby even more starting today > >> > and > >> > > > > > > some quick > >> > > > > > > start tips would be great, and any > >>advice regarding the care of my > >> > new > >> > > > > > > tank > >> > > > > > > would be great. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Thanks much > >> > > > > > > -Chloe* (: > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > >> > > > > > Thank You. > >> > > > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´ Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , > >> > > > > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > > > important to the > >> > > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of >>the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò ¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > > > > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > >> > unsubscribing, > >> > > > > > > you can > >> > > > > > > change your delivery option by > >>clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > >> > the > >> > > > > > > home > >> > > > > > > page. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the > >> > digest, > >> > > > > > > which > >> > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; >>for the No E-Mail > >> > option > >> > > > > > > where you > >> > > > > > > will still be able to read messages > >>on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive > >> > individual > >> > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > >> > > > > Thank You. > >> > > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´ Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > > important to the > >> > > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò ¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > >> > unsubscribing, > >> > > > > > you can > >> > > > > > change your delivery option by >>clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > >> > the > >> > > > > > home > >> > > > > > page. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to > >>receive the digest, > >> > > > > > which > >> > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail > >> > option > >> > > > > > where you > >> > > > > > will still be able to read messages >>on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive individual > >> > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > > >> > > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Please, DELETE this line and >>EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´ Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > >> > > > > important to the > >> > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >> > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> > >> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò ¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > If you do not want all of the groups > >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > > >> > > > > you can > >> > > > > change your delivery option by clicking > >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > > >> > > > > home > >> > > > > page. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, > >> > > > > which > >> > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>for the No E-Mail option > >> > > >> > > > > where you > >> > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; > >> > > > > >><mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive individual > >> > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > > >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > >> > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´ Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, >>DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > >> > to the > >> > > > >> > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the > >>original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > >> > LINE > >> > > >-> > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò ¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > >> > > > If you do not want all of the groups >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > you can > >> > > > >> > > > change your delivery option by clicking >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > home > >> > > > page. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, which > >> > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > >> > where you > >> > > > >> > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > >> > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------------ > >> > > > > >> > > > AquaticLife Ò· A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > >> > You. > >> > > > > >>Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.><((((Òº>.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´ Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸><((((Òº> > >> > Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. , .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..><((((Òº> > >> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, >>DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > >> > to the > >> > > > >> > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the > >>original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > >> > LINE > >> > > >-> > >> > > > > >> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > >> > > > > >><Òº((((><.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸<Òº((((><Ò ¸.Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸. > >>, > >> > .Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·..<Òº((((><Ò·Ò´Ò¯`Ò·.Ò¸Ò¸. > >> > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >> > > > > >> > > > If you do not want all of the groups >>emails, instead of unsubscribing, > >> > you can > >> > > > >> > > > change your delivery option by clicking >>on "Edit My Membership" on the > >> > home > >> > > > page. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > >> > >><mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; >>to receive the digest, which > >> > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > >> > where you > >> > > > >> > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >> > > > > >> > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > >> > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > >> > > >e-mails.Yahoo! > >> > > > > >> > > > Groups Links > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT > >that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING > >the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > >SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old > >subject)" <- > ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, > >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your > >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > >Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to > >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts > >at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for > >the No E-Mail option where you will still be able > >to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to > >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > >> > >> > >>--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > >>> > >>> Ah.. but here is the twist Ray... The substrate is the primary hotbed for > >>> hosting the bacteria... The filter 2nd and >>>the water column last. Hey.... I > >>> didn't sleep a bit last night so ya gotta give > >>>me a bit of slack on missing the > >>> point of the New Filter on the Established Tank!...<grin>.... > >>> Once I get some shut-eye tonight, I'd like to > >>>have ya clarify some points on the > >>> "non-cycle" process I described a few posts >>>ago.. namely... If i dilute the > >>> ammonia content by going up in tank size, >>>wouldn't i be equally diluting the > >>> bacteria in an equal proportion?.. Status quo overall?... Bill in Va. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________ > >>> From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > >>> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>> Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 7:46:47 AM > >>> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > >>> > >>> Donna, > >>> > >>> I don't believe I've seen this ever being >>>recommended. If I have, it hasn't > >>> been very often. That's a nice twist you use for getting a new filter > >>> established. I have to presume that you also still have the original > >>> established filter still running on the >>>established tank at this same time. > >>> Naturally, as both would be sharing the > >>>available nutrients, when you remove the > >>> new filter to its own (new) tank, the orginal established filter has some > >>> catching up to do in getting its population up > >>>to its old level and wouldn't be > >>> quite as efficient temporarily. I'd guess you'd probably need to do a few > >> > larger water changing in the meantime during > >>this period. Still -- excellent! > >>> > >>> Ray > >>> > >>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@> wrote: > >>> > > >>> > I always avoid a cycle on new tanks by running the new filter on the > >>> > established tank for two weeks first. Works perfectly! > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > _____ > >>> > > >>> > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>>[mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > >>> > Behalf Of Ray > >>> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 5:22 AM > >>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Hi Bill, > >>> > > >>> > What you're asking is completely done when using one of the liquid > >>> > nitrifying bacteria products -- such as the > >>>Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > >>> > When adding this to your aquarium, you may add a full (but never > >>> > overstocked) complement of fish to your > >>>aquarium the next day. The bacteria > >>> > will remain viable in your water column >>>and colonize your filter in short > >>> > time as they use the waste nutrients that the fish will be giving off. > >>> > > >>> > If you're asking is this possible without >>>one of these bacteria additives, > >>> > yes if you add an already established filter (from another tank) to your > >>> > newly set up tank, you can add fish immediately -- but more slowly -- > >>> > depending directly upon the size of the >>>bioload this established filter is > >>> > populated to handle. > >> > > > >>> > A portion of the media from another >>>already established and cycled filter > >>> > may also be used in "jump-starting" a new > >>>filter in a newly set up tank, but > >>> > this will take longer and the tank will experience some degree -- to a > >>> > greater or lesser extent -- of a >>>mini-cycle, depending here upon how many > >>> > fish you add to this new tank at any one time, especially in the very > >>> > beginning where it's most important as the new filter is just getting > >>> > repopulated from this "seeding." > >>> > > >>> > Looks like you've already correctly assumed > >>>the ability to promote this when > >>> > you stated, "by the introduction of an > >>>APPROPRIATE number of fish." If your > >>> > established sponge filter and HOB media are used -- depending upon the > >>> > amount of this material added to your new >>>tank, you'd be able to add that > >>> > portion of fish to this tank, provided the chemistry (pH, KH and GH) and > >>> > physiology (temperature) of the new water is similar to that of the tank > >>> > this media came off of. Larger changes in these parameters can cause a > >>> > slight set back for the bacteria. It >>>should always be assumed anyhow, that > >>> > the same amount of media being already establish on one tank will not > >>> > necessarily control the same amount of >>>waste products of another tank when > >>> > moved, but the similarity in parameters will help. > >>> > > >>> > If, for instance, you have a dozen fish in > >>>your established aquarium and you > >>> > transferred a 25% portion of this tank's > >>>filter media to a new tank, you can > >>> > expect that your new tank should support >>>at least two (but perhaps not yet > >>> > 3) fish immediately. Then too, the size of > >>>the two different tanks also has > >>> > a lot to do with this ability to avoid a major cycling when transferring > >>> > established filter media. While a colony of > >>>nitrifying bacteria may already > >>> > be populated enough to convert the waste of a dozen fish in a 40 gallon > >>> > tank, if these same 12 fish were in a 120 gallon tank the dissolution of > >>> > their waste products in ppm (parts per > >>>million) would be only 1/3 as great, > >>> > offering this population of bacteria only >>>1/3 of the food being offered to > >>> > the now at any one time as compared to the > >>>higher concentration of this same > >>> > waste in the smaller tank. In this case, > >>>with these same 12 fish, even with > >>> > moving the entire established filter to this > >>>new tank (and even if you used > >>> > all of the 40 gallons of water in this new >>>120 gallon tank, along with new > >>> > water to fill it), you would still experience a mini-cycle of some > >>> > proportion as, in ppm, there would not be as > >>>much organic waste per part of > >>> > water in this new tank; it would create a >>>partial die-off of the bacteria > >>> > until the organic waste again build up to the same concentrations. > >> > > > >>> > That your nitrate "spiked" to 10 showed you that the cycle was already > >>> > working as there would not be any if the >>>bacteria were not oxidizing their > >>> > nutrients (organic waste products). That your nitrite was showing 0.5 > >>> > though, indicated that while the >>>filter/tank was starting to get recycled, > >>> > that in essence you were still cycling with fish as you added them. Not > >>> > especially dangerous though in your case, > >>>provided you did adequate PWC's to > >>> > minimize this -- but then this prolongs the process, out of necessity. > >>> > > >>> > Ray > >>> > > >>> > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > >>> > Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > > Wow.. what a lively thread!.. The > >>>liveliness just forces us to work a bit > >>> > harder > >>> > > to present our perspectives.. our prejudices and investigate our own > >>> > beliefs!.. > >>> > > So Ray.. here is a tad of a >>>challenge....of sorts... (in a good humored > >>> > way)... > >>> > > Would it be possible to completely avoid a cycle process by the > >>> > introduction of > >>> > > an established colony of bacteria either from well established filter > >>> > media or > >>> > > substrate and feed the bacteria in a > >>>"BALANCED" level by the introduction > >>> > of an > >>> > > appropriate number of fish...plus a well planted tank of course. > >>> > > I'm talking 125g, a ton of plants.. >>>water treated with prime.. a sponge > >> > > filter > >>> > > and HOB media from one of my show tanks... > >>>the introduction of 10 tets... > >>> > And > >>> > > water testing on a 6 hr basis.. I saw >>>some nitrate spike to 10... a few > >>> > tests > >>> > > showing nitrites of .5... never any ammonia... over the course of 5 > >>> > days.... > >>> > > I was told I was full of poop.... By the end of 6 days.. I'd added an > >>> > additional > >>> > > 2 or 3 fishes each day...I was trying to do a balancing act of > >>> > > bac/ammonia/nitr's... Bill in Va. > >>> > > Oh.. it's set up in the walstad method... > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > ________________________________ > >>> > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > >>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 4:04:09 AM > >>> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Hi again, Livin, > >>> > > > >>> > > I approved your message for posting only > >>>because I preferred to ask you in > >>> > > >>> > > public not to resign, rather than to ask >>>you off-line where you may not > >>> > put as > >>> > > much consideration into it. I've read over > >>>the posts of Amber's and Bill's > >>> > that > >>> > > you just replied to and in all fairness I > >>>can't see them having bad advice > >>> > nor > >>> > > being rude -- but only offering their > >>>opinions, as are you. As I just got > >>> > done > >>> > > stating in my previous post, YOU are >>>entitled to your opinions, just as > >>> > everyone > >>> > > else here is. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > As for these other members offering bad >>>advice, please don't consider it > >>> > as such > >>> > > just because it is not in alignment with your own beliefs. I'd ask you > >>> > instead > >>> > > to just consider some of the merits of other's advices and/or to learn > >>> > more > >>> > > about the products being discussed -- such as what I just got done > >>> > offering you > >>> > > about the liquid bacteria products -- > >>>before you make you final decisions > >>> > on > >>> > > them. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > No, this is not Amber's list, but we are ALL fairly close-knit and > >>> > friendly. > >>> > > I'm asking you to stay with us, and with > >>>this, to please keep an open mind > >>> > to > >>> > > other's before condemning their advice. I noticed you had made another > >>> > post on > >>> > > the subject of liquid bacteria, before > >>>posting your below message, which I > >>> > > >>> > > haven't yet had the chance to address. > >>>Know that I will though, and again > >>> > > please keep an open mind to what I'm >>>offering. While I may be wrong, it > >>> > just > >>> > > sounds as if you haven't had much exposure > >>>to these other products. You're > >>> > > >>> > > certainly entitled to use Biozyme if you prefer, but without fully > >>> > understanding > >>> > > the ways these different products work -- as I tried explaining to you > >>> > already > >>> > > -- it's hard to make judgment on them >>>nor to recommend them to others if > >> > > you > >>> > > don't know the principles behind them. > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > Would like for you to air some of your other methods for consideration > >>> > here, as > >>> > > I'm sure you have a lot to offer. We may > >>>pick them apart, or we may learn > >>> > from > >>> > > them. Don't take constructive criticism as negative. > >>> > > > >>> > > Best, > >>> > > > >>> > > Ray > >>> > > > >>> > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > , Livin Lovin <livinnorcal@> wrote: > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Apparently, this is Amber's list. Her > >>>friends and she have chosen not to > >>> > allow > >>> > > > > >>> > > > any other opinions. I'm new, but I'm >>>not staying. The opinions are #1, > >>> > bad > >>> > > > advice, and #2, rude and offensive. >>>#3, very reminiscent of highschool > >>> > > >bullies. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Thankyou for the warm welcome. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > What a nice welcome to a new expert who > >>>has come to share, befriend and > >>> > become > >>> > > > >>> > > > part of the community. Back to your clique! > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ________________________________ > >>> > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > >>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > > Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 10:16:24 PM > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >>> > > > > >>> > > > There is another product called TLC. >>>It is NOT Stocked in your LFS. It > >>> > must > >>> > > >be > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ordered and it is shipped overnight. I > >>>know of two specialty fish store > >> > > owners > >>> > > > > >>> > > > that also do tank set-ups. When they > >>>have a customer that want's instant > >>> > > >>> > > > results, it's the product they use. >>>I'd be hesitant to use any product > >>> > that is > >>> > > > >>> > > > maintained in a stores inventory. Powder or liquid. Bill in Va. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > ----- Original Message ---- > >>> > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > >>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >>><mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; > >>> > > > Sent: Tue, May 3, 2011 12:53:50 AM > >>> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] New Aquarium > >>> > > > > >>> > > > It has a short shelf life, for that reason it has to be shipped > >>> > > > overnight and kept within a certain > >>>temperature range (so in the winter > >>> > > > it tends to not work out, as the live culture dies off when it's > >>> > frozen). > >>> > > > Again Dr. Tim's has proven to work, it's > >>>too bad Dr. Tim himself hasn't > >>> > > > see your post to explain HOW it works to > >>>you, since I don't know all the > >>> > > >>> > > > scientific bits about it I can't argue >>>as effectively as I would like > >>> > to. > >>> > > > Perhaps one of our other moderators can > >>>explain it better than I can. It > >>> > > >>> > > > doesn't matter if it comes in a >>>bottle, I think it's kept refrigerated > >>> > > > (which puts the bacteria into >>>hibernation from what I understand, but > >>> > > > I'm not completely positive. All I >>>know is that MANY people have shown > >>> > > > it to work quite effectively). I've >>>never heard anyone other than you > >>> > > > say that Biozyme works, so I cannot say the same thing about this > >>> > > > product. Only go by my own experience of it not working for me. > >>> > > > > >>> > > > Amber > >>> > > > > >>> > > > On 5/2/2011 8:03 PM, Livin Lovin wrote: > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > Dr. Tim's is bottled. It is self-explanatory. No circulation. No > >>> > > > > living waste > >>> > > > > to feed it...it's not a live >>>bacteria, not unless bought when first > >>> > > > > stocked. I > >>> > > > > wish that the FDA would begin governing these Dr. wagon, horse and > ><br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51310	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: New Aquarium

If you believe the nitrite-eating bacteria reside in the substrate only.put a portion of your new substrate in a mesh bag in the established tank for the same two weeks you are running the filter. Then use the substrate from the mesh bag with the newly established nitrite-eating bacteria as the top layer for your new tank. Never a need for a cycle if you have an existing established tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 2:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Bill here on the Walstad tear down. I agree.. if you have to tear them down, you can salvage the sand or gravel over the soil but the soil will be a washout. Interestingly enough, I've sold in the last 3 months about 200 gallons of tanks.. make that closer to 300.. in which the buyers didn't want the substrate disturbed. Let's keep the bio's going and take the water level down to a manageable level to load and transport. But really, trying to salvage the substrate is a matter of economics. A 2.00 dollar bag of soil and about 6 bucks of spfs for a 55 makes it worth while to do a total replace if you have to tear it down completely. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 1:10:42 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium Moving a walstad tank is next to impossible. You have to break it down and start over with fresh soil and gravel. Once you start to remove all the gravel/soil it kinda all mixes together and getting the gravel mixed out is such a chore that just getting new gravel is so much easier. Walstad tanks can last years before they need to be torn down and start over, but I've never seen one that required tearing down and starting over. Mine needs new silicone which is the only reason I need to tear it down and start over. I'm assuming that at some point the plants use up all the nutrients in the soil, but aren't fish constantly supply new nutrients? Is it really necessary to tear down and start over with a walstad tank? Perhaps I need to ask Diane why, LOL. Amber On 5/4/2011 8:16 AM, joe t wrote: > > Donna: > I understood Bill to say he was setting up a new tank. I am assuming > in addition to the old one. > > Unless I missed something (and that is possible since this is one hell > of a long string, LOL) Bill is using the Wahlstad method for his tank. > You advised, "to cover all bases, use half the substrate from the > original tank in the new tank...". Well, Bill has soil under his large > grained sand using this method. How is he going to get that substrate > out of the old tank without making one hell of a mess? Then putting it > in the new tank......whoah! an even bigger mess. I never tried this > method. ......Well, I did, a long time ago (30 years, maybe +) and > everyone told me I was crazy. Then when I had to clean out the tank I > had such a job that I thought I was crazy, too! And that was the end > of that idea.....for me, anyway. > > Can you or Bill explain to me how to go about doing this, please? > > joe t > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51311	From: caroline cormier	Date: 5/4/2011
Subject: Re: O/T -long winded [AquaticLife] Re: New Aquarium

I personally have some sort of bug.. its impossible to erase..   what the hell.. life is to short.. so many noses up in the air.    caroline [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51312	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/5/2011
Subject: Re: Possible dropsy, maybe bloat?

Hi Chloe, If you find that you cannot effectively treat your fish & you consider that her quality of life is not good then the kindest thing to do would be to put her to sleep. I would always recommend using the clove oil method because freezing could be very painful if ice crystals form in the fishes blood while it is still conscious. Message #51209 describes this method. John*<o)))< * On 4 May 2011 14:56, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > > >I think my sunset platy has dropsy or bloat. Her > >scales are protruding and she only has one fin. > >I isolated her into a bredder net but shes still > >in the same tank. Do I need to quarantine her? > >Which does she have? How do I treat it? Its so > >sad. I can provide pictures of her if needed. > > The edema is usually caused by kidney failure. > That's the largest and most important organ in > the fishes body. The kidney failure is usually > caused by bacterial infection. Once one sees this > symptom it is usually too late to do anything to > save the fish. It's regulatory system has just > failed and it can no longer eliminate collecting > fluids. Raising the dissolved solids in it's > water by adding salt often helps if it is soon > enough. Otherwise, it's the freezer for the fish. > > It might be a good time to work toward a cleaner > environment of the glass cage your fish are in. > When was the last time you changed how much water? > > Bacteria has a way of finding a way into the > cleanest tanks but it is much harder for them to > do it if they have little nourishment. > > Time to clean things up. > > Charles H > -- > }}<{{{�> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{�> }}<{{{�> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51313	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly want a tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the bottom of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was on the floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep water pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 Coralife HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. Cannot wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and allow it to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new sand substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must stay as the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the routine of acclimating new fish from the LFS. I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - something to think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters could live in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the beauty of living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay for an idea like that. Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your time and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if you > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in the > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were pests > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping Rams I > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a > bit upset when you move them. > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters running on > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is using a > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with the > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light for it > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the tank > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a pain to > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would suck up > if I did a deep cleaning). > > Amber > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > Hi, Amber: > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter out of > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer all your > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you for the > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to replace my > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II canister & an > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > according > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a few at a > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I will also > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I will > > not > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of this. > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was successful > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any other > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right direction > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding all of > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red Rainbows > > and > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > > dragon > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming room and > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > threatened by > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51314	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_fishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - and that's maintaining our aquariums. It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a budget. Reducing those energy costs 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller needed. 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated bill and those penpushers will never know. 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy any RO. 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. It might even trigger breeding! 11. Have the light on for less time. 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. Reducing your start-up costs 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become live again. 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure resistance. Some drastic cost cutters 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock costs. 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51315	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Coelacanth

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3897&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Coelacanth&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3hcxzkk Weird fish of the week: Coelacanth Nathan Hill looks at the Coelacanth - a non-extinct dinosaur that has lobes for fins and produces live young - in the continuing weird fish series. Many of us will already be familiar with this unusual fish, given its popularity in natural history documentaries. It is by no means the breakthrough discovery of the last decade or two that some believe it to be, although this has been the time when the majority of live specimens have been witnessed. The fish was thought to have gone extinct about 65 million years ago, having first appeared at around an estimated 410 million years ago. Most of what was known about the group - all 80 or so species - had been methodically gathered from fossil evidence; a jaw here, a fin there. The fish spectacularly reappeared when it was hauled upon the boat of Captain Hendrick Goosen on December 22nd, 1938. Museum official Marjorie Courtenay-Latimer was called in by local fisherman who were on standby to contact her in the event of discovering oddities, and she in turn had the fish preserved to the best of her abilities at the time and called in James Smith. Smith subsequently identified and named the discovery Latimeria chalumnae - a hybrid of a name, part in honour of a friend, and part in recognition of the region of the find. There are now known to be two living Coelacanth species on this planet. L. chalumnae, and the more recently discovered L. menadoensis, which was found in an Indonesian marketplace. Formerly, Coelacanth had only been discovered along Western and Southern Africa, Madagascar, and the Comoro Islands, where L. chalumnae reside. Coelacanths are hard to find in part because of their penchant for deeper waters. They normally live between 100 and 500m down, only venturing to shallower waters at night where they feed upon dozing fish. The other reason they are tricky to find is that they like to reside in deep caves underwater, often sharing in surprisingly dense populations to one cave. They are a nervous fish, and many suspect that they are prey to sharks. Certainly, many sharks like to inhabit the same regions that Coelacanth do, and bodies have been discovered with bites taken out of them. Coelacanth are big fish, often attaining over 1.5m. They have thick, toughened scales to protect them, and they are sluggish in a way that many fish that inhabit such cold, deep waters are. Even so, they can be surprisingly mobile when they need to, and they certainly have the fins of a good swimmer. Many of their fins are paired, and they have twin pelvic and dorsal fins, as well as the two pectorals so familiar to modern fishes. Anyone who has seen footage of these fish moving can testify to their unusual and almost hypnotic rhythmic movements. Ingeniously, they will often use water flows and currents to move themselves around, literally hitching a ride on drifting water. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51316	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one and only? Amber On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly want a > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the bottom > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was on the > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep water > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 Coralife > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. Cannot > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and allow it > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new sand > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must stay as > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the routine of > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - something to > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters could live > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the beauty of > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay for an > idea like that. > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your time > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > Cheers, > Clare > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if > you > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in > the > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were > pests > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > Rams I > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > running on > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > using a > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with > the > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > for it > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the > tank > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > pain to > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > suck up > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > out of > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > all your > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you > for the > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > replace my > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > canister & an > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > according > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a > few at a > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > will also > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I > will > > > not > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of > this. > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > successful > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any > other > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > direction > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding > all of > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > Rainbows > > > and > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > > > dragon > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > room and > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > threatened by > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51317	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as to whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while as they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given by them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you have a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the task of providing the correct lighting you need. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - and that's maintaining our aquariums. It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a budget. Reducing those energy costs 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller needed. 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated bill and those penpushers will never know. 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy any RO. 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. It might even trigger breeding! 11. Have the light on for less time. 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. Reducing your start-up costs 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become live again. 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure resistance. Some drastic cost cutters 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock costs. 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51318	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/6/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

I don't know what happened to the "L" in my first mention of LED lights. It is there in my "sent" copy on my machine. The line should read: "I'd like to state that they mention LED lights in several places . . ." \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as to whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while as they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given by them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you have a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the task of providing the correct lighting you need. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Szabo Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - and that's maintaining our aquariums. It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a budget. Reducing those energy costs 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller needed. 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated bill and those penpushers will never know. 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy any RO. 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. It might even trigger breeding! 11. Have the light on for less time. 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. Reducing your start-up costs 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become live again. 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure resistance. Some drastic cost cutters 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock costs. 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. --------<Continued at link>-------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51319	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

I usually lurk on this list, but felt I had to comment on the article. I wonder if they realise they have contradicted themselves? They say in ditch the plants and then immediately say switch to the Walstad method! I've just bought the Walstad book on the advice of Amber et al, maybe I should suggest it to the folks at Practical Fishkeeping... I am wondering if taking out a subscription to the magazine was quite such a good idea after all. This list is the best source of information that I have found and has been enormous help to me in my now almost two years of fishkeeping. And no matter how long I keep fish I shall never consider myself an expert :-) Tricia A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. --- Douglas Adams On 07 May, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_fishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to > cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the > full. [snip] > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed > period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to > view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of > planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and > doing no water changes.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51320	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Tricia, You know what makes it so hard to be an expert in this field? Those fish never read the right books and behave like they should! I have discovered, quite by accident, that I can set up two, say 20 gallon, tanks side by side, with substrate from the same lot, the same filtration, water plants, fish, etc. and have them develop into two completely different environments both chemically and population dynamically, from each other. Now, go figure that one out. I believe that you are to pick the methods presented as they fit to your situation, and not all 41 suggestions are meant for the same tank. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tricia Garner Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 5:37 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper I usually lurk on this list, but felt I had to comment on the article. I wonder if they realise they have contradicted themselves? They say in ditch the plants and then immediately say switch to the Walstad method! I've just bought the Walstad book on the advice of Amber et al, maybe I should suggest it to the folks at Practical Fishkeeping... I am wondering if taking out a subscription to the magazine was quite such a good idea after all. This list is the best source of information that I have found and has been enormous help to me in my now almost two years of fishkeeping. And no matter how long I keep fish I shall never consider myself an expert :-) Tricia A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. --- Douglas Adams On 07 May, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > Copyright C Practical Fishkeeping > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to > cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the > full. [snip] > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed > period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to > view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of > planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and > doing no water changes.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51321	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Ceiling House Fish

http://www.petophobia.com/?p=1359 An unusual aquarium setup. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51322	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard they work on the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good "stuff" growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the last two tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. I have always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I will be "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the Cycle is there just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the few fish, the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas overnight.....& I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is expensive and I have time to let the tank "grow". So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the fish are in there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank going within two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry so closely doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a whole new thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with the lighting I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. Any plant suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I have 12" less of depth to penetrate LOL Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one and only? > > Amber > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly want a > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the bottom > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was on the > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep water > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 Coralife > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. Cannot > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and allow it > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new sand > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must stay as > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the routine of > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - something to > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters could live > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the beauty of > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay for an > > idea like that. > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your time > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if > > you > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in > > the > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were > > pests > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > Rams I > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > running on > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > using a > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with > > the > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > for it > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the > > tank > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > pain to > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > suck up > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > out of > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > all your > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you > > for the > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > replace my > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > canister & an > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > according > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a > > few at a > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > will also > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I > > will > > > > not > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > successful > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any > > other > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > direction > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding > > all of > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > Rainbows > > > > and > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > > > > dragon > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > room and > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > threatened by > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51323	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Steve, I'm shocked to think that fish don't read the right books! What is the world coming to :-) By the way, if you really think most folks will see that you are supposed to cherry-pick the suggestions, not do all 41, you are not nearly cynical enough... Time to get back under my rock, I think. Tricia Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it. On 07 May Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > Tricia, > You know what makes it so hard to be an expert in this field? Those > fish never read the right books and behave like they should! > I have discovered, quite by accident, that I can set up two, say 20 > gallon, tanks side by side, with substrate from the same lot, the > same filtration, water plants, fish, etc. and have them develop > into two completely different environments both chemically and > population dynamically, from each other. Now, go figure that one > out. > I believe that you are to pick the methods presented as they fit to > your situation, and not all 41 suggestions are meant for the same > tank. > \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51324	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

LED's are great, but the initial purchase price sort of defeats the purpose of saving money. I do have to comment most on that last suggestion of putting the tank on the blocks... this will void any manufacturer warranty on the tank. BAD idea! In regards to the Walstad method... never doing a water change is also a BAD idea! Animals as much as plants utilize minerals and nutrients in any environment and to never refresh those means at some point there will be depletion of things the animals need for proper growth and organ function. Even using specialized substrates such as laterite, requires a changing out of the substrate every couple of yrs to avoid total depletion of necessary minerals and nutrients. Acrylic vs glass tanks... not really a money saver long term due to how easily acrylic scratches and how expensive it is to buy the chemicals to remove those scratches (provided they aren't too deep). I can't see that being an effective money saver either. The air powered filtration... also depends on what you're keeping/running for a tank. Many HOB filters are now just as efficient as air powered filters, especially in smaller tanks. Not sure where they came up with #5, but that made me laugh. Save money by moving... when the real estate market is what it is, jobs are what they are, hahahaha. I wonder if the author of this article has priced the dimmer switches for LED's? also laughable... as the switches alone are quite pricey. Buying "dead rock" aka base rock, used in marine aquariums... if this were to apply to only marine aquariums and time isn't an issue, that would be great, but don't put base rock into a freshwater tank outside of something like African cichlids where the water is very hard/calcium content very high, otherwise the base rock dissolves pretty quickly and leaves you with a tank full of powder instead of rock. Collecting rock, wood, leaves from a natural habitat can be dangerous as well. Bleach does not remove all forms of pollution not to mention parasites and etc. that are known to infest wood taken directly from an outdoor environment. Contaminating a tank with such things is not going to keep costs down... but instead will increase costs as you try to fix the problems and have to replace dead animals, etc. Switching from saltwater to freshwater is not always a cost saver either. My reef tank is less expensive to run than my 10 gallon freshwater tank, as it needs less water changes, less anything. Coral frags are often swapped at fish clubs and auctions, which can be much cheaper than buying freshwater fish and plants. Salt mix is cheap, and with the reduced need for water changes, the cost is made up elsewhere (water bill, plant fertilizers, etc) An RO unit that is hooked up and run only when the RO water is needed, if the tank is smaller (55 gallons or less), the expense is no more than it would be for weekly water changes in a freshwater tank. Not every marine tank needs a chiller, and depending on what is kept and how it is set up, skimmers don't have to cost a lot either... nor are they always needed (depends on what you're keeping in the tank). Sorry Steve, I had to point some of these things out. Some of these ideas could cost more instead of saving more.... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't know what happened to the "L" in my first mention of LED lights. It > is there in my "sent" copy on my machine. The line should read: > "I'd like to state that they mention LED lights in several places . . ." > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this > article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as to > whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while as > they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that > the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given by > them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. > > I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you have > a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the > task of providing the correct lighting you need. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne > wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f > ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping > > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the > cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. > > The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of > life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - > and that's maintaining our aquariums. > > It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more > cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a > budget. > > > > Reducing those energy costs > 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller > needed. > 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. > 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! > > > > 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. > 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated > bill and those penpushers will never know. > 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. > 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy > any RO. > 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat > in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. > 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. > 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, > so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. > It might even trigger breeding! > 11. Have the light on for less time. > 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. > > Reducing your start-up costs > 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. > 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using > silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. > 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps > of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become > live again. > 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure > resistance. > > Some drastic cost cutters > 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer > pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock > costs. > 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more > species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each > day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank > involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. > 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. > 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51325	From: Karlene	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Another Question!

Hi All! I haven't set up my 75 gallon tank yet. I've been crazy busy and haven't even had time to read messages, though I'm saving them to read and question from later. :) A situation arose this morning though, My male betta was dead, and I believe his death was traumatic. He was in the bottom of the tank on his back, and his fins appear to have been bitten off. He also had his gills expanded and were bright red. I'm thinking he was bullied to death, as everybody else looks fine with no fin damage. I'm confused, however, as I haven't seen any signs of fish picking on one another. I'm trying to decide who the most likely culprit is. The tank currently has 2 small Angel fish, 3 Mollies, 1 female Betta, 2 Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Dwarf Ram Cichlid, and 4 Platies. Noone else in the tank has any sort of fin issues. Who do you think the most likely culrpit is? ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51326	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Dawn, You also need to realize that his is from a UK publication. Pricing issues are different than those here. Going through any list like this never reveals a panacea for those looking at the purpose of the list. Each suggestion comes with its own set of presumptions and some of those are based on the locality of the author. If one can use a few of the tips given, terrific, they may save some money. However, for the most part, those savings will take a long time to accrue into a trip to Africa or South America. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 2:31 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper LED's are great, but the initial purchase price sort of defeats the purpose of saving money. I do have to comment most on that last suggestion of putting the tank on the blocks... this will void any manufacturer warranty on the tank. BAD idea! In regards to the Walstad method... never doing a water change is also a BAD idea! Animals as much as plants utilize minerals and nutrients in any environment and to never refresh those means at some point there will be depletion of things the animals need for proper growth and organ function. Even using specialized substrates such as laterite, requires a changing out of the substrate every couple of yrs to avoid total depletion of necessary minerals and nutrients. Acrylic vs glass tanks... not really a money saver long term due to how easily acrylic scratches and how expensive it is to buy the chemicals to remove those scratches (provided they aren't too deep). I can't see that being an effective money saver either. The air powered filtration... also depends on what you're keeping/running for a tank. Many HOB filters are now just as efficient as air powered filters, especially in smaller tanks. Not sure where they came up with #5, but that made me laugh. Save money by moving... when the real estate market is what it is, jobs are what they are, hahahaha. I wonder if the author of this article has priced the dimmer switches for LED's? also laughable... as the switches alone are quite pricey. Buying "dead rock" aka base rock, used in marine aquariums... if this were to apply to only marine aquariums and time isn't an issue, that would be great, but don't put base rock into a freshwater tank outside of something like African cichlids where the water is very hard/calcium content very high, otherwise the base rock dissolves pretty quickly and leaves you with a tank full of powder instead of rock. Collecting rock, wood, leaves from a natural habitat can be dangerous as well. Bleach does not remove all forms of pollution not to mention parasites and etc. that are known to infest wood taken directly from an outdoor environment. Contaminating a tank with such things is not going to keep costs down... but instead will increase costs as you try to fix the problems and have to replace dead animals, etc. Switching from saltwater to freshwater is not always a cost saver either. My reef tank is less expensive to run than my 10 gallon freshwater tank, as it needs less water changes, less anything. Coral frags are often swapped at fish clubs and auctions, which can be much cheaper than buying freshwater fish and plants. Salt mix is cheap, and with the reduced need for water changes, the cost is made up elsewhere (water bill, plant fertilizers, etc) An RO unit that is hooked up and run only when the RO water is needed, if the tank is smaller (55 gallons or less), the expense is no more than it would be for weekly water changes in a freshwater tank. Not every marine tank needs a chiller, and depending on what is kept and how it is set up, skimmers don't have to cost a lot either... nor are they always needed (depends on what you're keeping in the tank). Sorry Steve, I had to point some of these things out. Some of these ideas could cost more instead of saving more.... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't know what happened to the "L" in my first mention of LED lights. It > is there in my "sent" copy on my machine. The line should read: > "I'd like to state that they mention LED lights in several places . . ." > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this > article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as to > whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while as > they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that > the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given by > them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. > > I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you have > a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the > task of providing the correct lighting you need. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne > wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f > ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping > > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the > cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. > > The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of > life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - > and that's maintaining our aquariums. > > It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more > cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a > budget. > > > > Reducing those energy costs > 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller > needed. > 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. > 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! > > > > 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. > 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated > bill and those penpushers will never know. > 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. > 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy > any RO. > 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat > in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. > 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. > 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, > so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. > It might even trigger breeding! > 11. Have the light on for less time. > 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. > > Reducing your start-up costs > 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. > 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using > silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. > 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps > of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become > live again. > 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure > resistance. > > Some drastic cost cutters > 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer > pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock > costs. > 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more > species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each > day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank > involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. > 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. > 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51327	From: Bill	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago that touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started with a sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from various other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big established hobs after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big angels.. 3 3" discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are multiplying growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a replacement light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to cover the 6 foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not thinking, I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes every other day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is sitting atop the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the algae. So.. It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new discus tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any fish... (Oh, the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon bloods and the 6 Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I build a stand for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: cobra427lady <clare@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard they work on the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good "stuff" growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the last two tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. I have always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I will be "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the Cycle is there just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the few fish, the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas overnight.....& I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is expensive and I have time to let the tank "grow". So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the fish are in there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank going within two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry so closely doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a whole new thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with the lighting I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. Any plant suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I have 12" less of depth to penetrate LOL Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one and only? > > Amber > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly want a > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the bottom > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was on the > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep water > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 Coralife > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. Cannot > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and allow it > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new sand > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must stay as > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the routine of > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - something to > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters could live > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the beauty of > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay for an > > idea like that. > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your time > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if > > you > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in > > the > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were > > pests > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > Rams I > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > running on > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > using a > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with > > the > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > for it > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the > > tank > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > pain to > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > suck up > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > out of > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > all your > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you > > for the > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > replace my > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > canister & an > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > according > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a > > few at a > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > will also > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I > > will > > > > not > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > successful > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any > > other > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > direction > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding > > all of > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > Rainbows > > > > and > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > > > > dragon > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > room and > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > threatened by > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51328	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!

My first guess is the female betta. 2nd guess would be possibly the dwarf gourami's. My betta's used to fight with the dwarf gourami I used to have (lost him due to bloat or something about a year ago, didn't replace him). Everywhere I've read states that keeping a male and a female betta together only works short term, as eventually one of them will more than likely kill the other. I've not read of someone keeping them together for more than a week or two before problems come up. Amber On 5/7/2011 10:34 AM, Karlene wrote: > > Hi All! > > I haven't set up my 75 gallon tank yet. I've been crazy busy and haven't > even had time to read messages, though I'm saving them to read and > question > from later. :) A situation arose this morning though, My male betta was > dead, and I believe his death was traumatic. He was in the bottom of the > tank on his back, and his fins appear to have been bitten off. He also had > his gills expanded and were bright red. I'm thinking he was bullied to > death, as everybody else looks fine with no fin damage. I'm confused, > however, as I haven't seen any signs of fish picking on one another. I'm > trying to decide who the most likely culprit is. > > The tank currently has 2 small Angel fish, 3 Mollies, 1 female Betta, 2 > Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Dwarf Ram Cichlid, and 4 Platies. Noone else in the tank > has any sort of fin issues. > > Who do you think the most likely culrpit is? > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51329	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!

Well, being as both bettas  are together. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 11:34 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Another Question!   Hi All! I haven't set up my 75 gallon tank yet. I've been crazy busy and haven't even had time to read messages, though I'm saving them to read and question from later. :) A situation arose this morning though, My male betta was dead, and I believe his death was traumatic. He was in the bottom of the tank on his back, and his fins appear to have been bitten off. He also had his gills expanded and were bright red. I'm thinking he was bullied to death, as everybody else looks fine with no fin damage. I'm confused, however, as I haven't seen any signs of fish picking on one another. I'm trying to decide who the most likely culprit is. The tank currently has 2 small Angel fish, 3 Mollies, 1 female Betta, 2 Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Dwarf Ram Cichlid, and 4 Platies. Noone else in the tank has any sort of fin issues. Who do you think the most likely culrpit is? ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51330	From: Bill	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

I guess I have to add my 2 cents. I've used the walstad method extensively... But do do partial w/cs... just enough to vacumm some of the poo... between that and the vaporitive loss, I'm adding about 10% water per week. Even Walstad has come off her stance of NO W/C's... just not the level that most in the hobby follow. Tank on blocks... I'm assuming that they layed a layer of plywood or boards to even the load distribution... no one in their right mind would got straight to tank on block.... Dead rock?.. I've never heard of a serious hobbiest consider putting coral rock in a fresh water tank.... Natural collection?.. I do it all the time.. .to soften my water, I pull out some oak leaves and create a bunch and bury the stems in the substrate... They deteriorate over months and add those minerals you were speaking of. (And lower PH.. as i'm a SA guy)...I'm with ya on the bleach though.. I'd never let a bleach touched object near my tanks.. I do however boil the bejusus out of any rock with frequent w/c in the cooker... Drift wood?... I'll put it in my drive and pour boiling water over it a number of times.. let her dry then put in in my grill on low heat 150 degrees for a half hour or so... Never had a problem yet!... My topsoil for sub-substrate?... I bake that in batches at 190 degrees for 30 minutes.. .kills any critters yet maintains the bios.... Salt cheaper than Fresh?.. You must have some very generous friends when it comes to stocking your tanks... I won't even visit the salt section of the LFS's due to how incredible they look and then look at the pricing!.. Don't want to even tempt myself.... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 2:31:17 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper LED's are great, but the initial purchase price sort of defeats the purpose of saving money. I do have to comment most on that last suggestion of putting the tank on the blocks... this will void any manufacturer warranty on the tank. BAD idea! In regards to the Walstad method... never doing a water change is also a BAD idea! Animals as much as plants utilize minerals and nutrients in any environment and to never refresh those means at some point there will be depletion of things the animals need for proper growth and organ function. Even using specialized substrates such as laterite, requires a changing out of the substrate every couple of yrs to avoid total depletion of necessary minerals and nutrients. Acrylic vs glass tanks... not really a money saver long term due to how easily acrylic scratches and how expensive it is to buy the chemicals to remove those scratches (provided they aren't too deep). I can't see that being an effective money saver either. The air powered filtration... also depends on what you're keeping/running for a tank. Many HOB filters are now just as efficient as air powered filters, especially in smaller tanks. Not sure where they came up with #5, but that made me laugh. Save money by moving... when the real estate market is what it is, jobs are what they are, hahahaha. I wonder if the author of this article has priced the dimmer switches for LED's? also laughable... as the switches alone are quite pricey. Buying "dead rock" aka base rock, used in marine aquariums... if this were to apply to only marine aquariums and time isn't an issue, that would be great, but don't put base rock into a freshwater tank outside of something like African cichlids where the water is very hard/calcium content very high, otherwise the base rock dissolves pretty quickly and leaves you with a tank full of powder instead of rock. Collecting rock, wood, leaves from a natural habitat can be dangerous as well. Bleach does not remove all forms of pollution not to mention parasites and etc. that are known to infest wood taken directly from an outdoor environment. Contaminating a tank with such things is not going to keep costs down... but instead will increase costs as you try to fix the problems and have to replace dead animals, etc. Switching from saltwater to freshwater is not always a cost saver either. My reef tank is less expensive to run than my 10 gallon freshwater tank, as it needs less water changes, less anything. Coral frags are often swapped at fish clubs and auctions, which can be much cheaper than buying freshwater fish and plants. Salt mix is cheap, and with the reduced need for water changes, the cost is made up elsewhere (water bill, plant fertilizers, etc) An RO unit that is hooked up and run only when the RO water is needed, if the tank is smaller (55 gallons or less), the expense is no more than it would be for weekly water changes in a freshwater tank. Not every marine tank needs a chiller, and depending on what is kept and how it is set up, skimmers don't have to cost a lot either... nor are they always needed (depends on what you're keeping in the tank). Sorry Steve, I had to point some of these things out. Some of these ideas could cost more instead of saving more.... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > I don't know what happened to the "L" in my first mention of LED lights. It > is there in my "sent" copy on my machine. The line should read: > "I'd like to state that they mention LED lights in several places . . ." > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:14 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this > article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as to > whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while as > they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that > the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given by > them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. > > I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you have > a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the > task of providing the correct lighting you need. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne > wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f > ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping > > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the > cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. > > The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of > life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - > and that's maintaining our aquariums. > > It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more > cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a > budget. > > > > Reducing those energy costs > 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller > needed. > 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. > 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! > > > > 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. > 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated > bill and those penpushers will never know. > 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. > 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy > any RO. > 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat > in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. > 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. > 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, > so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. > It might even trigger breeding! > 11. Have the light on for less time. > 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. > > Reducing your start-up costs > 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. > 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using > silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. > 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps > of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become > live again. > 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure > resistance. > > Some drastic cost cutters > 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer > pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock > costs. > 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more > species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each > day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank > involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. > 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. > 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51331	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish

I have seen something like that in the Rain Forest Cafe. The tanks were way way bigger than what that place has.   Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 6:27 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ceiling House Fish   http://www.petophobia.com/?p=1359 An unusual aquarium setup. \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51332	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: Another Question!

Hi Karlene, I'm sorry to hear about your Betta, unfortunately I can't offer you any practical advice regarding your loss as I am primarily a Goldfish man but I do have a very good Betta link which might come in useful for future reference: http://nippyfish.net/ John. On 7 May 2011 21:58, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > Well, being as both bettas� are together. > > ________________________________ > From: Karlene <tarkom@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 11:34 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Another Question! > > � > Hi All! > > I haven't set up my 75 gallon tank yet. I've been crazy busy and haven't > even had time to read messages, though I'm saving them to read and question > from later. :) A situation arose this morning though, My male betta was > dead, and I believe his death was traumatic. He was in the bottom of the > tank on his back, and his fins appear to have been bitten off. He also had > his gills expanded and were bright red. I'm thinking he was bullied to > death, as everybody else looks fine with no fin damage. I'm confused, > however, as I haven't seen any signs of fish picking on one another. I'm > trying to decide who the most likely culprit is. > > The tank currently has 2 small Angel fish, 3 Mollies, 1 female Betta, 2 > Dwarf Gouramis, 1 Dwarf Ram Cichlid, and 4 Platies. Noone else in the tank > has any sort of fin issues. > > Who do you think the most likely culrpit is? > > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51333	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Steve-interesting to hear the list came from a UK source, everything is so expensive here so I get my US friends to send me over small items like filter socks. Even with the Airmail cost thrown in they still work out vastly cheaper than in 'rip-off Britain'! Regarding the acrylic vs glass tank scenario I have to disagree with Dawn about the vulnerability of acrylic. I have had mine over 2 years now & it is as pristine as the day I installed it-very easy to clean, I just wipe it over with a damp cloth followed by a gentle buffing with a soft dry duster & it positively gleams! Glass can also scratch. Admittedly my tank cost a lot-the whole system including the filtration & cabinet was �3000 but it was a custom build. I believe in the US you can get large acrylic tanks far cheaper off-the-shelf. I also think they are better value in the long term because glass has a limited life as it has seals, my tank is guaranteed for life & is considerably stronger [& lighter] than glass because it is all one piece. John. On 7 May 2011 21:45, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > I guess I have to add my 2 cents. I've used the walstad method > extensively... > But do do partial w/cs... just enough to vacumm some of the poo... between > that > and the vaporitive loss, I'm adding about 10% water per week. Even Walstad > has > come off her stance of NO W/C's... just not the level that most in the > hobby > follow. > Tank on blocks... I'm assuming that they layed a layer of plywood or boards > to > even the load distribution... no one in their right mind would got straight > to > tank on block.... > Dead rock?.. I've never heard of a serious hobbiest consider putting coral > rock > in a fresh water tank.... > > Natural collection?.. I do it all the time.. .to soften my water, I pull > out > some oak leaves and create a bunch and bury the stems in the substrate... > They deteriorate over months and add those minerals you were speaking of. > (And > lower PH.. as i'm a SA guy)...I'm with ya on the bleach though.. I'd never > let a > bleach touched object near my tanks.. I do however boil the bejusus out of > any > rock with frequent w/c in the cooker... Drift wood?... I'll put it in my > drive > and pour boiling water over it a number of times.. let her dry then put in > in my > grill on low heat 150 degrees for a half hour or so... Never had a problem > yet!... > My topsoil for sub-substrate?... I bake that in batches at 190 degrees for > 30 > minutes.. .kills any critters yet maintains the bios.... > Salt cheaper than Fresh?.. You must have some very generous friends when it > > comes to stocking your tanks... I won't even visit the salt section of the > LFS's > due to how incredible they look and then look at the pricing!.. Don't want > to > even tempt myself.... > Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 2:31:17 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > > LED's are great, but the initial purchase price sort of defeats the purpose > of > saving money. > > I do have to comment most on that last suggestion of putting the tank on > the > blocks... this will void any manufacturer warranty on the tank. BAD idea! > > In regards to the Walstad method... never doing a water change is also a > BAD > idea! Animals as much as plants utilize minerals and nutrients in any > environment and to never refresh those means at some point there will be > depletion of things the animals need for proper growth and organ function. > Even > using specialized substrates such as laterite, requires a changing out of > the > substrate every couple of yrs to avoid total depletion of necessary > minerals and > nutrients. > > Acrylic vs glass tanks... not really a money saver long term due to how > easily > acrylic scratches and how expensive it is to buy the chemicals to remove > those > scratches (provided they aren't too deep). I can't see that being an > effective > money saver either. > > The air powered filtration... also depends on what you're keeping/running > for a > tank. Many HOB filters are now just as efficient as air powered filters, > especially in smaller tanks. > > Not sure where they came up with #5, but that made me laugh. Save money by > moving... when the real estate market is what it is, jobs are what they > are, > hahahaha. > > I wonder if the author of this article has priced the dimmer switches for > LED's? > also laughable... as the switches alone are quite pricey. > > Buying "dead rock" aka base rock, used in marine aquariums... if this were > to > apply to only marine aquariums and time isn't an issue, that would be > great, but > don't put base rock into a freshwater tank outside of something like > African > cichlids where the water is very hard/calcium content very high, otherwise > the > base rock dissolves pretty quickly and leaves you with a tank full of > powder > instead of rock. > > Collecting rock, wood, leaves from a natural habitat can be dangerous as > well. > Bleach does not remove all forms of pollution not to mention parasites and > etc. > that are known to infest wood taken directly from an outdoor environment. > Contaminating a tank with such things is not going to keep costs down... > but > instead will increase costs as you try to fix the problems and have to > replace > dead animals, etc. > > Switching from saltwater to freshwater is not always a cost saver either. > My > reef tank is less expensive to run than my 10 gallon freshwater tank, as it > > needs less water changes, less anything. Coral frags are often swapped at > fish > clubs and auctions, which can be much cheaper than buying freshwater fish > and > plants. Salt mix is cheap, and with the reduced need for water changes, the > > cost is made up elsewhere (water bill, plant fertilizers, etc) An RO unit > that > is hooked up and run only when the RO water is needed, if the tank is > smaller > (55 gallons or less), the expense is no more than it would be for weekly > water > changes in a freshwater tank. Not every marine tank needs a chiller, and > depending on what is kept and how it is set up, skimmers don't have to cost > a > lot either... nor are they always needed (depends on what you're keeping in > the > tank). > > Sorry Steve, I had to point some of these things out. Some of these ideas > could > cost more instead of saving more.... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Szabo" <steve@...> wrote: > > > > I don't know what happened to the "L" in my first mention of LED lights. > It > > is there in my "sent" copy on my machine. The line should read: > > "I'd like to state that they mention LED lights in several places . . ." > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 10:14 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > > > I'd like to state that they mention ED lights in several places in this > > article. I've not yet tried them nor have I seen anything I can trust as > to > > whether they are worth the cost and effort, or if one should wait a while > as > > they are increasing the output of the LED "bulbs" as time goes on so that > > the cost will slowly be declining for the amount of light that is given > by > > them. Color spectrum is another aspect they are also still working on. > > > > I would say that if you have a fish only tank, give them a try. If you > have > > a planted tank, be cautious in their use as they may not yet be up to the > > task of providing the correct lighting you need. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > Behalf Of Steve Szabo > > Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:36 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper > > > > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_ne > > > wsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_f > > ishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html > > http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > > > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > > > Copyright �� Practical Fishkeeping > > > > > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut > the > > cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. > > > > The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk > of > > life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most > - > > and that's maintaining our aquariums. > > > > It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more > > cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving > on a > > budget. > > > > > > > > Reducing those energy costs > > 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller > > needed. > > 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. > > 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! > > > > > > > > 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. > > 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an > estimated > > bill and those penpushers will never know. > > 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. > > 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to > buy > > any RO. > > 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the > heat > > in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. > > 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. > > 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal > fluctuations, > > so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer > heatwaves. > > It might even trigger breeding! > > 11. Have the light on for less time. > > 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. > > > > Reducing your start-up costs > > 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. > > 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in > using > > silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. > > 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six > lumps > > of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become > > live again. > > 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure > > resistance. > > > > Some drastic cost cutters > > 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on > skimmer > > pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock > > costs. > > 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or > more > > species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. > > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each > > day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. > > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted > tank > > involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water > changes. > > 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, d��cor, livestock and > water. > > > 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. > > > > > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > > > \\Steve// > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51334	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 5/7/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Funny, this winter I was considering getting foam board insulation to put around the three sides and perhaps bottom of my 75gallon. course i procratinated so long now im into the type of weather where i have to umplug the heaters course spring in the mid atlantic had to plug them BACK in!! poor old frog not sure how he survived that as i had forgotten they were unplugged and his tank dropped to like 60 degrees...oops. erika newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3902&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_6_2011&utm_term=41_ways_to_make_fishkeeping_cheaper!&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/3zolt9z > > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > 41 ways to make fishkeeping cheaper! > > Copyright © Practical Fishkeeping > > Feeling the pinch in every one of your pockets? We show you how to cut the cost of fishkeeping while still enjoying the hobby to the full. > > The recession has hit us all and cutbacks have to be made in every walk of life. Yet that doesn't mean we have to give up on what we love doing most - and that's maintaining our aquariums. > > It's all about adapting our thinking and doing things in a more cost-conscious manner. So check out our tips to keep your fish thriving on a budget. > > > > Reducing those energy costs > 1. LED lighting means lower running costs. There's no heat, so no chiller needed. > 2. More efficient pumps mean lower running costs. > 3. Clean filter pipes, as blocked pumps use more lecky! > > > > 4. Air-powered filtration is mega-low wattage. > 5. Buy a house that isn't yet on a water meter. You can go over an estimated bill and those penpushers will never know. > 6. Use a condensation cover on your tank as it keeps the heat in. > 7. Match freshwater fish to your local tap water, so there's no need to buy any RO. > 8. Fit insulation to the rear and side panels of the tank to keep the heat in with one of the foam 3D backgrounds on the market. > 9. Get a tank that's acrylic, as it's a better insulator than glass. > 10. Turn your heater down. Even tropicals go through seasonal fluctuations, so set it at their lowest winter tolerance and leave it to summer heatwaves. It might even trigger breeding! > 11. Have the light on for less time. > 12. Fit a dimmer to LEDs as these use less lecky and help the bills. > > Reducing your start-up costs > 13. Collect leaves, wood and rocks locally. > 14. Build your own sump. Buy a scratched old tank and put baffles in using silicone sealant. You could even make them from plastic. > 15. Buy dead rock as this stuff from the ocean was once live. Buy six lumps of dry, dead rock and one lump of live and, over time, it will all become live again. > 16. Buy a shallow tank and thinner glass is cheaper due to less pressure resistance. > > Some drastic cost cutters > 17. Switch from marine to freshwater. Cut out those lecky bills on skimmer pumps, circulation pumps, lighting, salt, supplements, RO and livestock costs. > 18. Go temperate. Ditch the heater and go room temperature. Some 30 or more species in the hobby will actually fare better in temperate conditions. > 19. Ditch the plants. Live ones need bright light for a fixed period each day. Go fish only and light the tank when you want to view it. > 20. Switch to the Walstad method. This ultra low-tech style of planted tank involves using only garden soil as a substrate and doing no water changes. > 21. A smaller tank will mean less heat, light, décor, livestock and water. > 22. Stand your tank on breeze blocks. They are cheap but strong. > > > > --------<Continued at link>-------- > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51335	From: jaiko	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

i used coral rock in my 60g lake Malawi tank it keeps the pH up sience its high context of sodium bicarbonate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51336	From: Ray	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

Actually, coral rock (aragonite) is essentially calcium carbonate -a (hugh) difference when compared to sodium bicarbonate. This will continue to slowly dissolve in water when your pH tends to drop below 8.2, and will be a good source as your buffer. Depending on the influences of acidic tendencies of your tank -- CO2 and nitrous acid (from the processes of nitrification), etc. -- and your bioload creating these influences, the size of your tank and the quantities and frequencies of you PWC's, you may find you may need to adjust the amount of the coral rock being used so as to keep your pH where you need it. Dolomite may be used also, but aragonite dissolves at a somewhat faster rate, even if that's relatively slow by our standards. For even faster rates of dissolution when needed, this can be bought as "aragamite," a powdered fossilized coral rock. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > i used coral rock in my 60g lake Malawi tank it keeps the pH up sience its high context of sodium bicarbonate > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51337	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Filters?

What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? Have you modified them in any way? Do anything special/unique? What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have? What would you change them for if you could? What would you avoid? ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51338	From: bill 1433	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

Hi Kai,   Before anyone tries to answers these questions, you might want to tell us,what size tank your talking about?  How many different kinds of fish's it will house and also kinds or types of live plants, if any.   Bill --- On Sun, 5/8/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 9:59 AM What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? Have you modified them in any way?  Do anything special/unique? What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have?  What would you change them for if you could?  What would you avoid? ~Kai ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51339	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

I'm asking about all of YOU! :o) I know what I have... :oP ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Kai, >   > Before anyone tries to answers these questions, you might want > to tell us,what size tank your talking about?  How many different kinds > of fish's it will house and also kinds or types of live plants, if any. >   > Bill > > > --- On Sun, 5/8/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 9:59 AM > > > What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? > > Have you modified them in any way?  Do anything special/unique? > > What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have?  What would you change them for if you could?  What would you avoid? > ~Kai > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51340	From: jaiko	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: 41 Ways to Make Fishkeeping Cheaper

sorry i meant calcium carbonate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51341	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

I use hang on the back, and or sponge filters.  Running 2 per tank on larger tanks in case 1 fails. Always make sure your filter is strong enough to clean the tank you have. I left fish keeping and came back saved a few things from the past.  I do like filters that you can adjust flow on.         From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2011 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filters?   Hi Kai,   Before anyone tries to answers these questions, you might want to tell us,what size tank your talking about?  How many different kinds of fish's it will house and also kinds or types of live plants, if any.   Bill --- On Sun, 5/8/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 9:59 AM What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? Have you modified them in any way?  Do anything special/unique? What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have?  What would you change them for if you could?  What would you avoid? ~Kai ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51342	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago that > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started with a > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from various > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big established hobs > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big angels.. 3 3" > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are multiplying > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a replacement > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to cover the 6 > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not thinking, > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes every other > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is sitting atop > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the algae. So.. > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new discus > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any fish... (Oh, > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon bloods and the 6 > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I build a stand > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard they work on > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good "stuff" > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the last two > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. I have > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I will be > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the Cycle is there > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the few fish, > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > overnight.....& > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is expensive and > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the fish are in > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank going within > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry so closely > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a whole new > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with the lighting > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. Any plant > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I have 12" > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > Cheers, > Clare > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one and only? > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly want a > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the bottom > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was on the > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep water > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 Coralife > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. Cannot > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and allow it > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new sand > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must stay as > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the routine of > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - something to > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters could live > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the beauty of > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay for an > > > idea like that. > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your time > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if you just > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the transfer. > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your nitrifying > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it with > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you can), if > > > you > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the transfer should > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not rinsing it well > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those debris in > > > the > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there were > > > pests > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before moving the > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > Rams I > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as they are > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new tank (and > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will probably be a > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > running on > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish while you > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > using a > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick up the > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going to get > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you do with > > > the > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new tank and > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw someone > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway to their > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, and it > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like to have > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > for it > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about lowering the > > > tank > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > pain to > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, LOL), so I > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? that way you > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself soaked in the > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > suck up > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird :-) due to > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath yourself, > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult at best. > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall conversation > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > out of > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > all your > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all of you > > > for the > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > replace my > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > canister & an > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing HOB to > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In addition I > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > > according > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish over a > > > few at a > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > will also > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. Obviously, I > > > will > > > > > not > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to any of > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > successful > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, but any > > > other > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > direction > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is holding > > > all of > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > Rainbows > > > > > and > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock eel and > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > room and > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support from an > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable folks :-) I > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51343	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

HOB filters are cheap but noisy. I like Millenium (discontinued) better than AquaClear (what I buy now) because the Millenium restart after a power failure more reliably. Canister filters are more expensive but quiet. These are my preference. I own both Eheim (first 2 purchased) and Rena Filstar XP filters (last 5 purchased). I like the XPs better because they are cheaper and the both hoses come off together with one flip of a lever. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kuradi8 Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 9:59 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? Have you modified them in any way? Do anything special/unique? What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have? What would you change them for if you could? What would you avoid? ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51344	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're going for something different I would recommend covering the back of the tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not want it later on, but it also works too. Amber On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago > that > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > with a > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > various > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > established hobs > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > angels.. 3 3" > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > multiplying > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > replacement > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > cover the 6 > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not > thinking, > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > every other > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > sitting atop > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > algae. So.. > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > discus > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > fish... (Oh, > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > bloods and the 6 > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > build a stand > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > they work on > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > "stuff" > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > last two > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. > I have > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > will be > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > Cycle is there > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the > few fish, > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > > overnight.....& > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > expensive and > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the > fish are in > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > going within > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry > so closely > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > whole new > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > the lighting > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > Any plant > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > have 12" > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > and only? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > want a > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > bottom > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > on the > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep > water > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > Coralife > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > Cannot > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > allow it > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > sand > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > stay as > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > routine of > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > something to > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > could live > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > beauty of > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > for an > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > time > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if > you just > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > transfer. > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > nitrifying > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it > with > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > can), if > > > > you > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > transfer should > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > rinsing it well > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > debris in > > > > the > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > were > > > > pests > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > moving the > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > > Rams I > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > they are > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > tank (and > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > probably be a > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > running on > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > while you > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > > using a > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > up the > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going > to get > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > do with > > > > the > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > tank and > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > someone > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > to their > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > and it > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > to have > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > > for it > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > lowering the > > > > tank > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > > pain to > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > LOL), so I > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > that way you > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > soaked in the > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > > suck up > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > :-) due to > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > yourself, > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > at best. > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > conversation > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > > out of > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > > all your > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > of you > > > > for the > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing > HOB to > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > addition I > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > over a > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > > will also > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > Obviously, I > > > > will > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > any of > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > > successful > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > but any > > > > other > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > > direction > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > holding > > > > all of > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > eel and > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > > room and > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > from an > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51345	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

Kai, I am using aquaclear hang on back power filters on half of my tanks right now. I really like them as they allow for options on filter media. You can run one sponge in the back or two. Only their largest filter does not allow for two sponges in the back but it is a good sized filter to begin with. You can also add carbon or other products in the media area in the back. I often will add a sponge over the intake to keep moss and other debris from clogging the intake. This also adds extra filter capacity to the filter and if you have fry it can save their lives. In my other tanks I am using air driven sponge filters. At this point about 10 are being driven by an 18 watt linear air pump and on the other side off the fish room I am running about 12 more sponge filters on another linear air pump. I was using bio wheel filters on Eclipse hoods and they work great, but I moved in with my girlfriend and down sized them out of the current tanks in use. The eclipse filter hood allow you to make your own filters by ripping the old filter material off the filter cart and just adding filter floss from a fabric store. Filter floss if you are not familiar with it http://www.bigalsonline.com/Fish_Filter-Media_Mechanical-Filter-Media_Filter-Floss_9385217_82.html?tc=default Can be purchased at a fabric store under another name cheaper than from a pet chain store. I will also add this to the back of the aqua clear filters to "polish" the water a bit between water changes. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 7:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Filters? I'm asking about all of YOU! :o) I know what I have... :oP ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Kai, >   > Before anyone tries to answers these questions, you might want > to tell us,what size tank your talking about?  How many different kinds > of fish's it will house and also kinds or types of live plants, if any. >   > Bill > > > --- On Sun, 5/8/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 9:59 AM > > > What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? > > Have you modified them in any way?  Do anything special/unique? > > What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have?  What would you change them for if you could?  What would you avoid? > ~Kai > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51346	From: Bill	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go to the big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. Usually two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. Bill ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're going for something different I would recommend covering the back of the tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not want it later on, but it also works too. Amber On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago > that > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > with a > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > various > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > established hobs > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > angels.. 3 3" > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > multiplying > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > replacement > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > cover the 6 > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not > thinking, > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > every other > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > sitting atop > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > algae. So.. > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > discus > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > fish... (Oh, > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > bloods and the 6 > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > build a stand > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > they work on > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > "stuff" > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > last two > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. > I have > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > will be > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > Cycle is there > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the > few fish, > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > > overnight.....& > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > expensive and > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the > fish are in > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > going within > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry > so closely > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > whole new > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > the lighting > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > Any plant > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > have 12" > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > and only? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > want a > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > bottom > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > on the > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep > water > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > Coralife > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > Cannot > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > allow it > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > sand > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > stay as > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > routine of > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > something to > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > could live > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > beauty of > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > for an > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > time > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if > you just > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > transfer. > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > nitrifying > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it > with > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > can), if > > > > you > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > transfer should > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > rinsing it well > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > debris in > > > > the > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > were > > > > pests > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > moving the > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > > Rams I > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > they are > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > tank (and > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > probably be a > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > running on > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > while you > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > > using a > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > up the > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going > to get > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > do with > > > > the > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > tank and > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > someone > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > to their > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > and it > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > to have > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > > for it > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > lowering the > > > > tank > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > > pain to > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > LOL), so I > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > that way you > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > soaked in the > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > > suck up > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > :-) due to > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > yourself, > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > at best. > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > conversation > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > > out of > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > > all your > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > of you > > > > for the > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing > HOB to > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > addition I > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > over a > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > > will also > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > Obviously, I > > > > will > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > any of > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > > successful > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > but any > > > > other > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > > direction > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > holding > > > > all of > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > eel and > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > > room and > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > from an > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51347	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

A friend used shelf liner on the back applied with a adhesive of some sort. From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2011 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)   Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go to the big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. Usually two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. Bill ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're going for something different I would recommend covering the back of the tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not want it later on, but it also works too. Amber On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago > that > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > with a > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > various > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > established hobs > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > angels.. 3 3" > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > multiplying > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > replacement > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > cover the 6 > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not > thinking, > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > every other > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > sitting atop > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > algae. So.. > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > discus > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > fish... (Oh, > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > bloods and the 6 > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > build a stand > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > they work on > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > "stuff" > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > last two > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. > I have > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > will be > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > Cycle is there > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the > few fish, > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > > overnight.....& > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > expensive and > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the > fish are in > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > going within > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry > so closely > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > whole new > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > the lighting > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > Any plant > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > have 12" > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > and only? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > want a > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > bottom > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > on the > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep > water > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > Coralife > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > Cannot > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > allow it > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > sand > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > stay as > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > routine of > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > something to > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > could live > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > beauty of > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > for an > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > time > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if > you just > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > transfer. > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > nitrifying > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it > with > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > can), if > > > > you > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > transfer should > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > rinsing it well > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > debris in > > > > the > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > were > > > > pests > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > moving the > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > > Rams I > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > they are > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > tank (and > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > probably be a > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > running on > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > while you > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > > using a > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > up the > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going > to get > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > do with > > > > the > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > tank and > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > someone > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > to their > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > and it > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > to have > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > > for it > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > lowering the > > > > tank > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > > pain to > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > LOL), so I > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > that way you > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > soaked in the > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are so > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > > suck up > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > :-) due to > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > yourself, > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > at best. > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > conversation > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > > out of > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > > all your > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > of you > > > > for the > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing > HOB to > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > addition I > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter Innoculant > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > over a > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > > will also > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > Obviously, I > > > > will > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > any of > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > > successful > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > but any > > > > other > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > > direction > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > holding > > > > all of > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > eel and > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > > room and > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > from an > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51348	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

Hi Kai, My Goldfish have a custom made 16 gallon sump wet/dry running their 109 gallon tank. The 2 gravity weirs drop water through 2 filter socks then into a 15" x 15" x 12" media chamber containing bio balls & nylon pan scrubbers. Into the next compartment for water polishing by white polyester foam [floss] bought in bulk from the local market. Final compartment houses 2 Eheim 5000 compact pumps returning the water. Tank turnover is about 10 times per hour. Filter socks get rinsed out in old tank water every couple of weeks & floss is replaced approx every 3 weeks. Pan scrubbers & bio balls get occasional gentle rinsing in old tank water-they last forever. I also have an Eheim 2026 canister running the UV subsystem. This was from my previous tank before I upgraded & is also filled with pan scrubbers. I used to have 2 of these filters & they are really good & quiet but if I were buying again I would get the cheaper 2217 because it has nothing to go wrong. mine has the priming 'bells & whistles' gimmick which is all very well until you need to replace the orange O ring. My fish started out 6 years ago in a 16 gallon tank with a Fluval 3 internal-I cannot recommend these filters highly enough, it looked after my fish for 18 months until I got my first Eheim 2026 & a larger tank. John*<o)))<* On 8 May 2011 19:41, <Deenerz@...> wrote: > > > Kai, > > I am using aquaclear hang on back power filters on half of my tanks > right now. I really like them as they allow for options on filter > media. You can run one sponge in the back or two. Only their largest > filter does not allow for two sponges in the back but it is a good > sized filter to begin with. You can also add carbon or other products > in the media area in the back. I often will add a sponge over the > intake to keep moss and other debris from clogging the intake. This > also adds extra filter capacity to the filter and if you have fry it > can save their lives. > > In my other tanks I am using air driven sponge filters. At this point > about 10 are being driven by an 18 watt linear air pump and on the > other side off the fish room I am running about 12 more sponge filters > on another linear air pump. > > I was using bio wheel filters on Eclipse hoods and they work great, but > I moved in with my girlfriend and down sized them out of the current > tanks in use. The eclipse filter hood allow you to make your own > filters by ripping the old filter material off the filter cart and just > adding filter floss from a fabric store. > > Filter floss if you are not familiar with it > > http://www.bigalsonline.com/Fish_Filter-Media_Mechanical-Filter-Media_Filter-Floss_9385217_82.html?tc=default > Can be purchased at a fabric store under another name cheaper than from > a pet chain store. > > I will also add this to the back of the aqua clear filters to "polish" > the water a bit between water changes. > > -Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 7:54 am > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Filters? > > I'm asking about all of YOU! :o) > I know what I have... :oP > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Kai, > > > > Before anyone tries to answers these questions, you might want > > to tell us,what size tank your talking about? How many different > kinds > > of fish's it will house and also kinds or types of live plants, if > any. > > > > Bill > > > > > > --- On Sun, 5/8/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Filters? > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, May 8, 2011, 9:59 AM > > > > > > What type of filters do you have for your freshwater tanks? > > > > Have you modified them in any way? Do anything special/unique? > > > > What are the advantages and disadvantages of what you have? What > would you change them for if you could? What would you avoid? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit > My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51349	From: William M	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish

I would not like to be around if the "tunnel" broke or started leaking air into it. that would let all of the a water out of the "tunnel" and flood the floor. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cindy Johnston <chienne35@...> wrote: > > I have seen something like that in the Rain Forest Cafe. The tanks were way way bigger than what that place has. > >   > Cindy > The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. > > > ________________________________ > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2011 6:27 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ceiling House Fish > > >   > http://www.petophobia.com/?p=1359 > > An unusual aquarium setup. > > \\Steve// > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51350	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Hi Clare, Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect the heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long hours of light in the Summer. John*<o)))< * On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go to > the > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > Usually > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. Bill > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of the > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > want it later on, but it also works too. > > Amber > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago > > that > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > with a > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > various > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > established hobs > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > angels.. 3 3" > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > multiplying > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > replacement > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > cover the 6 > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not > > thinking, > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > every other > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > sitting atop > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > algae. So.. > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > discus > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > fish... (Oh, > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > bloods and the 6 > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > build a stand > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > they work on > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > "stuff" > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > last two > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. > > I have > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > will be > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > Cycle is there > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the > > few fish, > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > > > overnight.....& > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > expensive and > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the > > fish are in > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > going within > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry > > so closely > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > whole new > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > the lighting > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > Any plant > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > have 12" > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > and only? > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > want a > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > bottom > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > on the > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep > > water > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > Coralife > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > Cannot > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > allow it > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > sand > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > stay as > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > routine of > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > something to > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > could live > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > beauty of > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > for an > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > time > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if > > you just > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > transfer. > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > nitrifying > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it > > with > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > can), if > > > > > you > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > transfer should > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > rinsing it well > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > debris in > > > > > the > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > were > > > > > pests > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > moving the > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > they are > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > tank (and > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > probably be a > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > running on > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > while you > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > > > using a > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > up the > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going > > to get > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > do with > > > > > the > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > tank and > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > someone > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > to their > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > and it > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > to have > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > > > for it > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > lowering the > > > > > tank > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > > > pain to > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > LOL), so I > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > that way you > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > soaked in the > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are > so > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > > > suck up > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > :-) due to > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > yourself, > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > at best. > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > conversation > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > > > out of > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > of you > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > addition I > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > Innoculant > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > over a > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > Obviously, I > > > > > will > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > any of > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > but any > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > holding > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > eel and > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > from an > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51351	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides

Hello everyone one. So today I stopped over at PetCo to get some decorations for one of my tanks. While looking at theirs tanks I saw one with Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides. Based on the requirements I found online this would be an ideal plant for my set up. Care Level: Moderate Lighting: High Placement: Foreground Water Conditions: 68-82° F, KH 0-10, pH 5.0-7.5 Propogation: Cuttings, Runners Max. Size: 6" Color Form: Green Supplements: CO2 Fertilization, Substrate Fertilizer Origin: Cuba, Farm Raised, USA Family: Scrophulariaceae I currently have a T5 light ballast w 2 25w bulbs which I am planning to get replaced with something of higher output. Wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this plant? I really love the idea of it covering the whole of the substrate bottom. Here is what I have Tank 80us Gallons pH 7.6 Ammo @ 0 Nitrites @ 0 Nitrates @ 10 - 30 depending on PWC freq kH @ 6 & 7 depending on PWC freq gH @ 9 Plants 5 Java Ferns (Microsorum pteropus) (less than 3 inches tall - coverage of about 3sq inches) 1 Japanese Duarf Rush (Acorus variegatus) Stock 1 Common Pleco 9 Tiger Barb 3 Green Barb 3 Albino Barb 5 Neon 2 Mickey Platy 5 Emerald Cory 3 Long Fin Danio

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51352	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ceiling House Fish

Looks like acrylic and acrylic is pretty tough. Not to say it would not be mess if it broke or leaked :) I had a 20 long glass tank on top of a six foot pallet rack and little did I know the rack beam had popped up out of place when I walked out of the room. At the time I was filling that tank and when I cam back in the room I was working under that shelf on another tank I was setting up. It sounded like a rifle shot when the glass pane broke and it showered me with water as well as much of the room. Who knew a measly 20 gallons could be such a mess. Upon reading the above my girlfriend just requested that I keep the wet/dry shop vac handy from now on :) -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: William M <dreammaker2623@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 4:43 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ceiling House Fish I would not like to be around if the "tunnel" broke or started leaking air into it. that would let all of the a water out of the "tunnel" and flood the floor. .

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51353	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides

The fact that it needs high light, CO2 and fertilizer makes it a demanding plant in my book. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Mejia Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 10:01 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides Hello everyone one. So today I stopped over at PetCo to get some decorations for one of my tanks. While looking at theirs tanks I saw one with Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides. Based on the requirements I found online this would be an ideal plant for my set up. Care Level: Moderate Lighting: High Placement: Foreground Water Conditions: 68-82° F, KH 0-10, pH 5.0-7.5 Propogation: Cuttings, Runners Max. Size: 6" Color Form: Green Supplements: CO2 Fertilization, Substrate Fertilizer Origin: Cuba, Farm Raised, USA Family: Scrophulariaceae I currently have a T5 light ballast w 2 25w bulbs which I am planning to get replaced with something of higher output. Wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this plant? I really love the idea of it covering the whole of the substrate bottom. Here is what I have Tank 80us Gallons pH 7.6 Ammo @ 0 Nitrites @ 0 Nitrates @ 10 - 30 depending on PWC freq kH @ 6 & 7 depending on PWC freq gH @ 9 Plants 5 Java Ferns (Microsorum pteropus) (less than 3 inches tall - coverage of about 3sq inches) 1 Japanese Duarf Rush (Acorus variegatus) Stock 1 Common Pleco 9 Tiger Barb 3 Green Barb 3 Albino Barb 5 Neon 2 Mickey Platy 5 Emerald Cory 3 Long Fin Danio [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51354	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Thanks for all the suggestions - I don't think I'll paint it since I may want to move it into the house later and use it as a room divider of sorts - taking paint off with a razor blade would be a pain LOL I like the drop cloth idea and think I will go that route, but John raised an interesting question about deflecting summer sun heat. It really is not a factor for me, since this window facing due North and gets no direct sunlight, but I could see how that would be am issue for others who have tanks facing due East or West. (The hex is in the same location and never experiences temp swings.) Another thought to ponder - substrate. I have a peacock eel (about 12" long) and a Dragon Goby - both who need a fairly "soft" substrate - the eel is a definite burrower & the goby sucks up some of the substrate & spits it out when he feeds. The hex is currently full of sand with just a bit of very small round smooth river gravel for contrast. I like the look, but it clogs up my Eheim power vac and I usually pull up a lot when I use the suction vac. I I was thinking of a change, but am concerned for the peacock eel & goby. Any thoughts or am I resigned to a sandy bottom? Planting becomes a consideration, too but the eel is not to much of a uprooter - he like to be under the mopani wood & most of my plants will be Anubias and Java ferns and swords - all of which I can plant in buried "pots" of sorts & tied to the wood, like I do now. You guys are so much help, thanks! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Clare, > > Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it > might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect the > heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from > unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long hours > of light in the Summer. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go to > > the > > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > > Usually > > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. Bill > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of the > > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > > want it later on, but it also works too. > > > > Amber > > > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks ago > > > that > > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > > with a > > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > > various > > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > > established hobs > > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > > angels.. 3 3" > > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > > multiplying > > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > > replacement > > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > > cover the 6 > > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. Not > > > thinking, > > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > > every other > > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > > sitting atop > > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > > algae. So.. > > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > > discus > > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > > fish... (Oh, > > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > > bloods and the 6 > > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > > build a stand > > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > > they work on > > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > > "stuff" > > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > > last two > > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross spikes. > > > I have > > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > > will be > > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > > Cycle is there > > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in the > > > few fish, > > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank outgas > > > > overnight.....& > > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > > expensive and > > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since the > > > fish are in > > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > > going within > > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water chemistry > > > so closely > > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > > whole new > > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > > the lighting > > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > > Any plant > > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > > have 12" > > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably be > > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > > and only? > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > > want a > > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > > bottom > > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > > on the > > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a deep > > > water > > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > > Coralife > > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > > Cannot > > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > > allow it > > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > > sand > > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > > stay as > > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can start > > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > > routine of > > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > > something to > > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > > could live > > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > > beauty of > > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > > for an > > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > > time > > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank if > > > you just > > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > > transfer. > > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > > nitrifying > > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing it > > > with > > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > > can), if > > > > > > you > > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > > transfer should > > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > > rinsing it well > > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > > debris in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > > were > > > > > > pests > > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > > moving the > > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are keeping > > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > > they are > > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > > tank (and > > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > > probably be a > > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > > running on > > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > > while you > > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel is > > > > > > using a > > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > > up the > > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are going > > > to get > > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > > do with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > > tank and > > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > > someone > > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > > to their > > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > > and it > > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > > to have > > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered light > > > > > > for it > > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > > lowering the > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that is a > > > > > > pain to > > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > > LOL), so I > > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > > that way you > > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > > soaked in the > > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they are > > so > > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I would > > > > > > suck up > > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > > :-) due to > > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > > yourself, > > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > > at best. > > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > > conversation > > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a planter > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just transfer > > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > > of you > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative and > > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long to > > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that existing > > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > > addition I > > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > > Innoculant > > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > > over a > > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved over, I > > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > > Obviously, I > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > > any of > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and was > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > > but any > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the right > > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > > holding > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian Red > > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > > eel and > > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more swimming > > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > > from an > > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or feel > > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > > > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51355	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides

This plant requires a lot of light to keep it growing well. It is also a slow grower, some people find it fills in faster if you break it apart and separate it into small pieces and plant them individually across the gravel/substrate. I love the looks of this plant but it's such a demanding plant that I gave up on it. I have high lighting but not enough fertilizers added to keep it thriving. Amber On 5/8/2011 6:00 PM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello everyone one. > > So today I stopped over at PetCo to get some decorations for one of my > tanks. > > While looking at theirs tanks I saw one with Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus > callitrichoides. Based on the requirements I found online this would be an > ideal plant for my set up. > Care Level: Moderate > Lighting: High > Placement: Foreground > Water Conditions: 68-82° F, KH 0-10, pH 5.0-7.5 > Propogation: Cuttings, Runners > Max. Size: 6" > Color Form: Green > Supplements: CO2 Fertilization, Substrate Fertilizer > Origin: Cuba, Farm Raised, USA > Family: Scrophulariaceae > > I currently have a T5 light ballast w 2 25w bulbs which I am planning > to get > replaced with something of higher output. > > Wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this plant? I > really love the idea of it covering the whole of the substrate bottom. > > Here is what I have > > Tank > 80us Gallons > pH 7.6 > Ammo @ 0 > Nitrites @ 0 > Nitrates @ 10 - 30 depending on PWC freq > kH @ 6 & 7 depending on PWC freq > gH @ 9 > > Plants > 5 Java Ferns (Microsorum pteropus) (less than 3 inches tall - coverage of > about 3sq inches) > 1 Japanese Duarf Rush (Acorus variegatus) > > Stock > 1 Common Pleco > 9 Tiger Barb > 3 Green Barb > 3 Albino Barb > 5 Neon > 2 Mickey Platy > 5 Emerald Cory > 3 Long Fin Danio > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51356	From: AMejia1976@hotmail.com	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides

:( ok - Guess I will keep looking. Thank you both for ur insight Alex Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 14:46:40 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus callitrichoides This plant requires a lot of light to keep it growing well. It is also a slow grower, some people find it fills in faster if you break it apart and separate it into small pieces and plant them individually across the gravel/substrate. I love the looks of this plant but it's such a demanding plant that I gave up on it. I have high lighting but not enough fertilizers added to keep it thriving. Amber On 5/8/2011 6:00 PM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello everyone one. > > So today I stopped over at PetCo to get some decorations for one of my > tanks. > > While looking at theirs tanks I saw one with Dwarf Baby Tears - Hemianthus > callitrichoides. Based on the requirements I found online this would be an > ideal plant for my set up. > Care Level: Moderate > Lighting: High > Placement: Foreground > Water Conditions: 68-82° F, KH 0-10, pH 5.0-7.5 > Propogation: Cuttings, Runners > Max. Size: 6" > Color Form: Green > Supplements: CO2 Fertilization, Substrate Fertilizer > Origin: Cuba, Farm Raised, USA > Family: Scrophulariaceae > > I currently have a T5 light ballast w 2 25w bulbs which I am planning > to get > replaced with something of higher output. > > Wondering if anyone out there has had any experience with this plant? I > really love the idea of it covering the whole of the substrate bottom. > > Here is what I have > > Tank > 80us Gallons > pH 7.6 > Ammo @ 0 > Nitrites @ 0 > Nitrates @ 10 - 30 depending on PWC freq > kH @ 6 & 7 depending on PWC freq > gH @ 9 > > Plants > 5 Java Ferns (Microsorum pteropus) (less than 3 inches tall - coverage of > about 3sq inches) > 1 Japanese Duarf Rush (Acorus variegatus) > > Stock > 1 Common Pleco > 9 Tiger Barb > 3 Green Barb > 3 Albino Barb > 5 Neon > 2 Mickey Platy > 5 Emerald Cory > 3 Long Fin Danio > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51357	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: Filters?

Thanks for your filter replies, everyone! :o) My 55g has two HOB filters. They're both Walmart knock-offs of the Penguin 300/330 but without the bio-wheel. I like that they're efficient and easy to maintain but I don't like the look of the intake tubes. I've tried to disguise them and hide them with plants but they're still not attractive. Same with the submersible heater. It's an eyesore. I recently discovered BLACK air line for my bubblers. That disappears pretty well. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51358	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Hi Clare, I always assume the worst case scenario so was thinking your tank was in direct sunlight!!-obviously no problem if it is north-facing then. The cooking foil idea was originally for someone who had such a small living area that they could only fit in an aquarium in front of a radiator so I suggested using foil on the back of the tank to deflect the heat from that. Your eel & Goby sound like a great couple of characters, regarding your substrate I can't advise anything specifically for them as my info is almost all Goldfish based but a good small substrate is 3mm round gravel, I think is sometimes called Roman or Silica gravel. The fish can grub through it & suck it up but as it is rounded & small they cannot get it stuck in their mouths so it is safe. Also because it is gravel rather than sand it is far easier to use your gravel vac. I think it would be fine for burrowing in too. John*<o)))< * On 9 May 2011 15:52, cobra427lady <clare@...> wrote: > > > Thanks for all the suggestions - I don't think I'll paint it since I may > want to move it into the house later and use it as a room divider of sorts - > taking paint off with a razor blade would be a pain LOL I like the drop > cloth idea and think I will go that route, but John raised an interesting > question about deflecting summer sun heat. It really is not a factor for me, > since this window facing due North and gets no direct sunlight, but I could > see how that would be am issue for others who have tanks facing due East or > West. (The hex is in the same location and never experiences temp swings.) > > Another thought to ponder - substrate. I have a peacock eel (about 12" > long) and a Dragon Goby - both who need a fairly "soft" substrate - the eel > is a definite burrower & the goby sucks up some of the substrate & spits it > out when he feeds. The hex is currently full of sand with just a bit of very > small round smooth river gravel for contrast. I like the look, but it clogs > up my Eheim power vac and I usually pull up a lot when I use the suction > vac. I I was thinking of a change, but am concerned for the peacock eel & > goby. Any thoughts or am I resigned to a sandy bottom? Planting becomes a > consideration, too but the eel is not to much of a uprooter - he like to be > under the mopani wood & most of my plants will be Anubias and Java ferns and > swords - all of which I can plant in buried "pots" of sorts & tied to the > wood, like I do now. > > You guys are so much help, thanks! > > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Clare, > > > > Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it > > might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect > the > > heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from > > unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long > hours > > of light in the Summer. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go > to > > > the > > > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > > > Usually > > > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > > > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > > > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of > the > > > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > > > want it later on, but it also works too. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks > ago > > > > that > > > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > > > with a > > > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > > > various > > > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > > > established hobs > > > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > > > angels.. 3 3" > > > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > > > multiplying > > > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > > > replacement > > > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > > > cover the 6 > > > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. > Not > > > > thinking, > > > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > > > every other > > > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > > > sitting atop > > > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > > > algae. So.. > > > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > > > discus > > > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > > > fish... (Oh, > > > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > > > bloods and the 6 > > > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > > > build a stand > > > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > > > they work on > > > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > > > "stuff" > > > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > > > last two > > > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross > spikes. > > > > I have > > > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > > > will be > > > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > > > Cycle is there > > > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in > the > > > > few fish, > > > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank > outgas > > > > > overnight.....& > > > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > > > expensive and > > > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since > the > > > > fish are in > > > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > > > going within > > > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water > chemistry > > > > so closely > > > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > > > whole new > > > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > > > the lighting > > > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > > > Any plant > > > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > > > have 12" > > > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably > be > > > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > > > and only? > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > > > want a > > > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > > > bottom > > > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > > > on the > > > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a > deep > > > > water > > > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > > > Coralife > > > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > > > Cannot > > > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > > > sand > > > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > > > stay as > > > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can > start > > > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > > > routine of > > > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > > > something to > > > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > > > could live > > > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > > > beauty of > > > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > > > for an > > > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > > > time > > > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank > if > > > > you just > > > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > > > transfer. > > > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > > > nitrifying > > > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing > it > > > > with > > > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > > > can), if > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > > > transfer should > > > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > > > rinsing it well > > > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > > > debris in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > > > were > > > > > > > pests > > > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > > > moving the > > > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are > keeping > > > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > > > they are > > > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > > > tank (and > > > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > > > probably be a > > > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > > > running on > > > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > > > while you > > > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel > is > > > > > > > using a > > > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > > > up the > > > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are > going > > > > to get > > > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > > > do with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > > > tank and > > > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > > > someone > > > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > > > to their > > > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > > > and it > > > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > > > to have > > > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered > light > > > > > > > for it > > > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > > > lowering the > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that > is a > > > > > > > pain to > > > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > > > LOL), so I > > > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > > > that way you > > > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > > > soaked in the > > > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they > are > > > so > > > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I > would > > > > > > > suck up > > > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > > > :-) due to > > > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > > > yourself, > > > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > > > at best. > > > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > > > conversation > > > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a > planter > > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just > transfer > > > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > > > of you > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative > and > > > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long > to > > > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that > existing > > > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > > > addition I > > > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > > > Innoculant > > > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > > > over a > > > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved > over, I > > > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > > > Obviously, I > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > > > any of > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and > was > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > > > but any > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the > right > > > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > > > holding > > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian > Red > > > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > > > eel and > > > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more > swimming > > > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > > > from an > > > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or > feel > > > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , > .���`�..><((((�> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51359	From: Bill	Date: 5/9/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

There is sand and there is sand... I exclusively use PFS.. Pool Filter Sand.. it is made to filter water and trap suspended particulates. With that property, is also provides a great rooting medium for plants. As far as siphoning, my experience is that the sand goes up the tube maybe 1/2 way and drops back down. What is special about PFS?.. this is finely graded sand to provide a consistant capacity to allow water to pass thru it. .45 - .55 cm per grain. Playground sand is 1/3rd to 2 times those parameters. A friend of mine was buying a PFS and had to rinse and rinse and rinse before use. I buy a brand called Lighthouse and have NEVER had to rinse prior to use in the tank. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 9:02:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) Hi Clare, I always assume the worst case scenario so was thinking your tank was in direct sunlight!!-obviously no problem if it is north-facing then. The cooking foil idea was originally for someone who had such a small living area that they could only fit in an aquarium in front of a radiator so I suggested using foil on the back of the tank to deflect the heat from that. Your eel & Goby sound like a great couple of characters, regarding your substrate I can't advise anything specifically for them as my info is almost all Goldfish based but a good small substrate is 3mm round gravel, I think is sometimes called Roman or Silica gravel. The fish can grub through it & suck it up but as it is rounded & small they cannot get it stuck in their mouths so it is safe. Also because it is gravel rather than sand it is far easier to use your gravel vac. I think it would be fine for burrowing in too. John*<o)))< * On 9 May 2011 15:52, cobra427lady <clare@...> wrote: > > > Thanks for all the suggestions - I don't think I'll paint it since I may > want to move it into the house later and use it as a room divider of sorts - > taking paint off with a razor blade would be a pain LOL I like the drop > cloth idea and think I will go that route, but John raised an interesting > question about deflecting summer sun heat. It really is not a factor for me, > since this window facing due North and gets no direct sunlight, but I could > see how that would be am issue for others who have tanks facing due East or > West. (The hex is in the same location and never experiences temp swings.) > > Another thought to ponder - substrate. I have a peacock eel (about 12" > long) and a Dragon Goby - both who need a fairly "soft" substrate - the eel > is a definite burrower & the goby sucks up some of the substrate & spits it > out when he feeds. The hex is currently full of sand with just a bit of very > small round smooth river gravel for contrast. I like the look, but it clogs > up my Eheim power vac and I usually pull up a lot when I use the suction > vac. I I was thinking of a change, but am concerned for the peacock eel & > goby. Any thoughts or am I resigned to a sandy bottom? Planting becomes a > consideration, too but the eel is not to much of a uprooter - he like to be > under the mopani wood & most of my plants will be Anubias and Java ferns and > swords - all of which I can plant in buried "pots" of sorts & tied to the > wood, like I do now. > > You guys are so much help, thanks! > > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Clare, > > > > Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it > > might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect > the > > heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from > > unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long > hours > > of light in the Summer. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go > to > > > the > > > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > > > Usually > > > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > > > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > > > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of > the > > > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > > > want it later on, but it also works too. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks > ago > > > > that > > > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > > > with a > > > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > > > various > > > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > > > established hobs > > > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > > > angels.. 3 3" > > > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > > > multiplying > > > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > > > replacement > > > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > > > cover the 6 > > > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. > Not > > > > thinking, > > > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > > > every other > > > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > > > sitting atop > > > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > > > algae. So.. > > > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > > > discus > > > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > > > fish... (Oh, > > > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > > > bloods and the 6 > > > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > > > build a stand > > > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > > > they work on > > > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > > > "stuff" > > > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > > > last two > > > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross > spikes. > > > > I have > > > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > > > will be > > > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > > > Cycle is there > > > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in > the > > > > few fish, > > > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank > outgas > > > > > overnight.....& > > > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > > > expensive and > > > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since > the > > > > fish are in > > > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > > > going within > > > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water > chemistry > > > > so closely > > > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > > > whole new > > > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > > > the lighting > > > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > > > Any plant > > > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > > > have 12" > > > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably > be > > > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > > > and only? > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > > > want a > > > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > > > bottom > > > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > > > on the > > > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a > deep > > > > water > > > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > > > Coralife > > > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > > > Cannot > > > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > > > sand > > > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > > > stay as > > > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can > start > > > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > > > routine of > > > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > > > something to > > > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > > > could live > > > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > > > beauty of > > > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > > > for an > > > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > > > time > > > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank > if > > > > you just > > > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > > > transfer. > > > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > > > nitrifying > > > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing > it > > > > with > > > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > > > can), if > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > > > transfer should > > > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > > > rinsing it well > > > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > > > debris in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > > > were > > > > > > > pests > > > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > > > moving the > > > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are > keeping > > > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > > > they are > > > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > > > tank (and > > > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > > > probably be a > > > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > > > running on > > > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > > > while you > > > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel > is > > > > > > > using a > > > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > > > up the > > > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are > going > > > > to get > > > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > > > do with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > > > tank and > > > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > > > someone > > > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > > > to their > > > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > > > and it > > > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > > > to have > > > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered > light > > > > > > > for it > > > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > > > lowering the > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that > is a > > > > > > > pain to > > > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > > > LOL), so I > > > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > > > that way you > > > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > > > soaked in the > > > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they > are > > > so > > > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I > would > > > > > > > suck up > > > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > > > :-) due to > > > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > > > yourself, > > > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > > > at best. > > > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > > > conversation > > > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a > planter > > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just > transfer > > > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > > > of you > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative > and > > > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long > to > > > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that > existing > > > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > > > addition I > > > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > > > Innoculant > > > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > > > over a > > > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved > over, I > > > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > > > Obviously, I > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > > > any of > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and > was > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > > > but any > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the > right > > > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > > > holding > > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian > Red > > > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > > > eel and > > > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more > swimming > > > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > > > from an > > > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or > feel > > > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51360	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Another vote for pool filter sand. Very inexpensive, clean and even grain. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 9:21 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) There is sand and there is sand... I exclusively use PFS.. Pool Filter Sand.. it is made to filter water and trap suspended particulates. With that property, is also provides a great rooting medium for plants. As far as siphoning, my experience is that the sand goes up the tube maybe 1/2 way and drops back down. What is special about PFS?.. this is finely graded sand to provide a consistant capacity to allow water to pass thru it. .45 - .55 cm per grain. Playground sand is 1/3rd to 2 times those parameters. A friend of mine was buying a PFS and had to rinse and rinse and rinse before use. I buy a brand called Lighthouse and have NEVER had to rinse prior to use in the tank. Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@... <mailto:simmonds.john%40ntlworld.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 9:02:09 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) Hi Clare, I always assume the worst case scenario so was thinking your tank was in direct sunlight!!-obviously no problem if it is north-facing then. The cooking foil idea was originally for someone who had such a small living area that they could only fit in an aquarium in front of a radiator so I suggested using foil on the back of the tank to deflect the heat from that. Your eel & Goby sound like a great couple of characters, regarding your substrate I can't advise anything specifically for them as my info is almost all Goldfish based but a good small substrate is 3mm round gravel, I think is sometimes called Roman or Silica gravel. The fish can grub through it & suck it up but as it is rounded & small they cannot get it stuck in their mouths so it is safe. Also because it is gravel rather than sand it is far easier to use your gravel vac. I think it would be fine for burrowing in too. John*<o)))< * On 9 May 2011 15:52, cobra427lady <clare@... <mailto:clare%40clarescreaturecomforts.com> > wrote: > > > Thanks for all the suggestions - I don't think I'll paint it since I may > want to move it into the house later and use it as a room divider of sorts - > taking paint off with a razor blade would be a pain LOL I like the drop > cloth idea and think I will go that route, but John raised an interesting > question about deflecting summer sun heat. It really is not a factor for me, > since this window facing due North and gets no direct sunlight, but I could > see how that would be am issue for others who have tanks facing due East or > West. (The hex is in the same location and never experiences temp swings.) > > Another thought to ponder - substrate. I have a peacock eel (about 12" > long) and a Dragon Goby - both who need a fairly "soft" substrate - the eel > is a definite burrower & the goby sucks up some of the substrate & spits it > out when he feeds. The hex is currently full of sand with just a bit of very > small round smooth river gravel for contrast. I like the look, but it clogs > up my Eheim power vac and I usually pull up a lot when I use the suction > vac. I I was thinking of a change, but am concerned for the peacock eel & > goby. Any thoughts or am I resigned to a sandy bottom? Planting becomes a > consideration, too but the eel is not to much of a uprooter - he like to be > under the mopani wood & most of my plants will be Anubias and Java ferns and > swords - all of which I can plant in buried "pots" of sorts & tied to the > wood, like I do now. > > You guys are so much help, thanks! > > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Clare, > > > > Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it > > might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect > the > > heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from > > unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long > hours > > of light in the Summer. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go > to > > > the > > > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > > > Usually > > > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > > > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. > Bill > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > > > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of > the > > > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > > > want it later on, but it also works too. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks > ago > > > > that > > > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > > > with a > > > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > > > various > > > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > > > established hobs > > > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > > > angels.. 3 3" > > > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > > > multiplying > > > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > > > replacement > > > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > > > cover the 6 > > > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. > Not > > > > thinking, > > > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > > > every other > > > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > > > sitting atop > > > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > > > algae. So.. > > > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > > > discus > > > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > > > fish... (Oh, > > > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > > > bloods and the 6 > > > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > > > build a stand > > > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > > > they work on > > > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > > > "stuff" > > > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > > > last two > > > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross > spikes. > > > > I have > > > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > > > will be > > > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > > > Cycle is there > > > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in > the > > > > few fish, > > > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank > outgas > > > > > overnight.....& > > > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > > > expensive and > > > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since > the > > > > fish are in > > > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > > > going within > > > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water > chemistry > > > > so closely > > > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > > > whole new > > > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > > > the lighting > > > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > > > Any plant > > > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > > > have 12" > > > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably > be > > > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > > > and only? > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > > > want a > > > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > > > bottom > > > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > > > on the > > > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a > deep > > > > water > > > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > > > Coralife > > > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > > > Cannot > > > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > > > allow it > > > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > > > sand > > > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > > > stay as > > > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can > start > > > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > > > routine of > > > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > > > something to > > > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > > > could live > > > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > > > beauty of > > > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > > > for an > > > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > > > time > > > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank > if > > > > you just > > > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > > > transfer. > > > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > > > nitrifying > > > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing > it > > > > with > > > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > > > can), if > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > > > transfer should > > > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > > > rinsing it well > > > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > > > debris in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > > > were > > > > > > > pests > > > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > > > moving the > > > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are > keeping > > > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > > > they are > > > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > > > tank (and > > > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > > > probably be a > > > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > > > running on > > > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > > > while you > > > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel > is > > > > > > > using a > > > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > > > up the > > > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are > going > > > > to get > > > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > > > do with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > > > tank and > > > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > > > someone > > > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > > > to their > > > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > > > and it > > > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > > > to have > > > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered > light > > > > > > > for it > > > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > > > lowering the > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that > is a > > > > > > > pain to > > > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > > > LOL), so I > > > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > > > that way you > > > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > > > soaked in the > > > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they > are > > > so > > > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I > would > > > > > > > suck up > > > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > > > :-) due to > > > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > > > yourself, > > > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > > > at best. > > > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > > > conversation > > > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a > planter > > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just > transfer > > > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > > > of you > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative > and > > > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long > to > > > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that > existing > > > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > > > addition I > > > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > > > Innoculant > > > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > > > over a > > > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved > over, I > > > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > > > Obviously, I > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > > > any of > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and > was > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > > > but any > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the > right > > > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > > > holding > > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian > Red > > > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > > > eel and > > > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more > swimming > > > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > > > from an > > > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or > feel > > > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51361	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :)

Thanks, BIll and Donna - PFS it is then :-) Looking forward to trying it - I'll do some looking for a local carrier of the Lighthouse brand. I might also try adding a bit of the Roman/Silica that John mentioned - I like a contrasting look. Thanks all for your suggestions.......can't wait to get this tank up and running! One more week (the stand has been oiled and is drying as I type). Pics forthcoming.....glad I asked for suggestions - always helps. Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > There is sand and there is sand... I exclusively use PFS.. Pool Filter Sand.. it > is made to filter water and trap suspended particulates. With that property, is > also provides a great rooting medium for plants. As far as siphoning, my > experience is that the sand goes up the tube maybe 1/2 way and drops back down. > What is special about PFS?.. this is finely graded sand to provide a consistant > capacity to allow water to pass thru it. .45 - .55 cm per grain. Playground > sand is 1/3rd to 2 times those parameters. A friend of mine was buying a PFS > and had to rinse and rinse and rinse before use. I buy a brand called > Lighthouse and have NEVER had to rinse prior to use in the tank. Bill in Va. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, May 9, 2011 9:02:09 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > Hi Clare, > > I always assume the worst case scenario so was thinking your tank was in > direct sunlight!!-obviously no problem if it is north-facing then. The > cooking foil idea was originally for someone who had such a small living > area that they could only fit in an aquarium in front of a radiator so I > suggested using foil on the back of the tank to deflect the heat from that. > > Your eel & Goby sound like a great couple of characters, regarding your > substrate I can't advise anything specifically for them as my info is almost > all Goldfish based but a good small substrate is 3mm round gravel, I think > is sometimes called Roman or Silica gravel. The fish can grub through it & > suck it up but as it is rounded & small they cannot get it stuck in their > mouths so it is safe. Also because it is gravel rather than sand it is far > easier to use your gravel vac. I think it would be fine for burrowing in > too. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > On 9 May 2011 15:52, cobra427lady <clare@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Thanks for all the suggestions - I don't think I'll paint it since I may > > want to move it into the house later and use it as a room divider of sorts - > > taking paint off with a razor blade would be a pain LOL I like the drop > > cloth idea and think I will go that route, but John raised an interesting > > question about deflecting summer sun heat. It really is not a factor for me, > > since this window facing due North and gets no direct sunlight, but I could > > see how that would be am issue for others who have tanks facing due East or > > West. (The hex is in the same location and never experiences temp swings.) > > > > Another thought to ponder - substrate. I have a peacock eel (about 12" > > long) and a Dragon Goby - both who need a fairly "soft" substrate - the eel > > is a definite burrower & the goby sucks up some of the substrate & spits it > > out when he feeds. The hex is currently full of sand with just a bit of very > > small round smooth river gravel for contrast. I like the look, but it clogs > > up my Eheim power vac and I usually pull up a lot when I use the suction > > vac. I I was thinking of a change, but am concerned for the peacock eel & > > goby. Any thoughts or am I resigned to a sandy bottom? Planting becomes a > > consideration, too but the eel is not to much of a uprooter - he like to be > > under the mopani wood & most of my plants will be Anubias and Java ferns and > > swords - all of which I can plant in buried "pots" of sorts & tied to the > > wood, like I do now. > > > > You guys are so much help, thanks! > > > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Clare, > > > > > > Just a thought but whatever you have decorated the back of your tank it > > > might be an idea to stick a sheet of baking foil on top of it to deflect > > the > > > heating potential of the sun. Even a tank that big could suffer from > > > unwanted temperature swings on sunny days-especially during the long > > hours > > > of light in the Summer. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 8 May 2011 22:23, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me?.. I wouldn't even think about painting the back of a tank.. I'd go > > to > > > > the > > > > big box stores and buy that vinyl backing that mimics a planted tank. > > > > Usually > > > > two sided for different looks. Ya might then even have to tape some > > > > construction paper over that so that there is no light bleeding thru. > > Bill > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Sun, May 8, 2011 1:46:28 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > Some natural light is recommended for a Walstad tank, but if you're > > > > going for something different I would recommend covering the back of > > the > > > > tank with a dark cloth. Painting it is more permanent and you may not > > > > want it later on, but it also works too. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 5/8/2011 5:24 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I can relate, Bill - that happened to me on my 40G - the amount of > > > > > algae was unreal and ugly but effective message LOL This leads me to > > > > > yet another thread - background....this new 120 will be in front of a > > > > > window (only place for it). Should I paint the back oft he tank, hand > > > > > a drop cloth from the back or what to block the light when the blinds > > > > > are open.....talk about potential algae blooms.....any ideas? > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I've got to share one my bonehead mistakes I made almost 2 weeks > > ago > > > > > that > > > > > > touches on both of these threads. Aquascape and lighting. Started > > > > > with a > > > > > > sterile 125 and SPF for substrate. Took about 60 or so plants from > > > > > various > > > > > > other tanks I had set up... Cycled in a week or so with 2 big > > > > > established hobs > > > > > > after treating the water with Prime of course. Added the 12 big > > > > > angels.. 3 3" > > > > > > discus and a dozen or so tetras. Looking good.. the plants are > > > > > multiplying > > > > > > growing.. the fish are happy.. and a friend decided to donate a > > > > > replacement > > > > > > light fixture. I was running 2 4foot 6500K and a 20" 6500K bulbs to > > > > > cover the 6 > > > > > > foot length of the tank. The new fixture featured a 10K T5 bulb. > > Not > > > > > thinking, > > > > > > I ran the lighting duration (15 hrs) after the change > > > > > out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... Now > > > > > > I'm fighting an algae bloom for the last week... 33% water changes > > > > > every other > > > > > > day... and nothing worked until I borrowed a UV sterilizer the is > > > > > sitting atop > > > > > > the tank on a few boards.. Looks like cr#p but it's clearing the > > > > > algae. So.. > > > > > > It's back to the 6500K bulbs and saving the 10K fixture for the new > > > > > discus > > > > > > tank.. 6 hrs of lighting max at first... At least I didn't lose any > > > > > fish... (Oh, > > > > > > the discus tank is a fat 75 and will be housing the 3 3" pigeon > > > > > bloods and the 6 > > > > > > Scorpion (blue diamond/blue snakeskin) 2.5 inchers as soon as I > > > > > build a stand > > > > > > for the 75. Lesson learned that I should have known. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: cobra427lady <clare@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Sat, May 7, 2011 12:29:47 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New Tank Threads / Reply to Amber :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You know, I have never used Dr. Tim's One and Only but I have heard > > > > > they work on > > > > > > the same principle to help shorten the tank cycle and get the good > > > > > "stuff" > > > > > > growing faster....I am no chemist but found that using Cycle in the > > > > > last two > > > > > > tanks I set up from scratch really did help & I had no gross > > spikes. > > > > > I have > > > > > > always used fish as my ammonia source & never lost a one. Since I > > > > > will be > > > > > > "seeding" the new tank using an HOB with established medium, the > > > > > Cycle is there > > > > > > just to help as the tank mature, though I am not going to put in > > the > > > > > few fish, > > > > > > the Cycle or hang the HOB until I add Amquel and let the tank > > outgas > > > > > > overnight.....& > > > > > > I also have decided against using a "live" substrate, since it is > > > > > expensive and > > > > > > I have time to let the tank "grow". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, in the end, who knows what works the best on its own - since > > the > > > > > fish are in > > > > > > there and helping, too :-) - bless their little fins. > > > > > > > > > > > > All I know is that each time I do it this way I have a nice tank > > > > > going within > > > > > > two weeks and without the extra work of watching the water > > chemistry > > > > > so closely > > > > > > doing a fishless cycle using ammonia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > More time for me to play around with the aquascape....now there's a > > > > > whole new > > > > > > thread! I would really love to hear what you think grows well with > > > > > the lighting > > > > > > I mentioned I have.....I have not plans to upgrade those HO T5's. > > > > > Any plant > > > > > > suggestions? I think I should be able to grow more variety since I > > > > > have 12" > > > > > > less of depth to penetrate LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber - you are a veritable fount of information :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh, I don't blame you for wanting a shorter tank, I'd probably > > be > > > > > > > considering the same if I had a tank taller than my 125 gallon. > > > > > > > I have never used Nutrafin Cycle, does it work like Dr. Tim's one > > > > > and only? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/6/2011 7:11 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the insights, Amber :-) I have weighed some of these > > > > > > > > suggestions before, having stared at this tank for over a year > > > > > > > > considering possibilities....it all came down to depth. I truly > > > > > want a > > > > > > > > tank that is only as deep as my armpit LOL I cannot reach the > > > > > bottom > > > > > > > > of the hex without and extension tool/grabbers, even if it was > > > > > on the > > > > > > > > floor and not on a 24" stand :-) It's depth also required a > > deep > > > > > water > > > > > > > > pump to just get a bubble wand to work! For lighting I have 2 > > > > > Coralife > > > > > > > > HO 6700K T5 fixtures (24" - 2 lamps each) on the tank as well. > > > > > Cannot > > > > > > > > wait to see what these will allow me to grow in a shorter tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have decided to set up the new tank along side the hex and > > > > > allow it > > > > > > > > to cycle for a few weeks, using the HOB, Nutrafin Cycle and new > > > > > sand > > > > > > > > substrate (for my peacock eel). The substrate in the hex must > > > > > stay as > > > > > > > > the fish are staying until the new tanks cycles. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once the temp and water parameters of the tanks match, I can > > start > > > > > > > > moving fish over (as well as the other Eheim Pro II canister), > > > > > > > > hopefully without too many problems & it is just like the > > > > > routine of > > > > > > > > acclimating new fish from the LFS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I like the idea of using the hex as a sort of terrarium - > > > > > something to > > > > > > > > think about. Would have to investigate what plants/critters > > > > > could live > > > > > > > > in it year round outside sheltered under the gazebo.....the > > > > > beauty of > > > > > > > > living here in the Bay Area is the climate might just be okay > > > > > for an > > > > > > > > idea like that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will post pics as soon as I have things going - thanks for your > > > > > time > > > > > > > > and suggestions, Amber - you are very nice..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ahh well then it will be much easier to cycle your new tank > > if > > > > > you just > > > > > > > > > move all the fish and filters over on the same day you do the > > > > > transfer. > > > > > > > > > I would rinse the gravel a bit (if you want to save your > > > > > nitrifying > > > > > > > > > bacteria that is inside the gravel then I recommend rinsing > > it > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > removed tank water from the hex and rinse it as well as you > > > > > can), if > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > haven't had any fish health issues in your hex then the > > > > > transfer should > > > > > > > > > go rather smoothly. Sometimes moving the gravel and not > > > > > rinsing it well > > > > > > > > > enough can make the new tank dirty looking (from all those > > > > > debris in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > gravel), this can sometimes cause fish health issues if there > > > > > were > > > > > > > > pests > > > > > > > > > hiding in your gravel. So make sure you rinse it well before > > > > > moving the > > > > > > > > > gravel to the new tank. Considering the fact that you are > > keeping > > > > > > > > Rams I > > > > > > > > > would be very picky about how clean you get the gravel, as > > > > > they are > > > > > > > > > sensitive fish. Make sure to have lots of plants in the new > > > > > tank (and > > > > > > > > > decorations) so they can hide if they want to, they will > > > > > probably be a > > > > > > > > > bit upset when you move them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just put your fish in a clean rubbermaid tub with the filters > > > > > > > > running on > > > > > > > > > it (to keep them cycled and keep the water fresh for the fish > > > > > while you > > > > > > > > > are cleaning the gravel). A good trick to removing the gravel > > is > > > > > > > > using a > > > > > > > > > (clean of course) kitty litter scoop, this allows you to pick > > > > > up the > > > > > > > > > gravel and leave the dirty tank water behind. If you are > > going > > > > > to get > > > > > > > > > new gravel for this new tank then it doesn't matter what you > > > > > do with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > old gravel, just make sure to keep your filters for the new > > > > > tank and > > > > > > > > > then you should only have a minor mini cycle at most. I saw > > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > using old aquarium (rainbow colored) gravel for their walkway > > > > > to their > > > > > > > > > house, I thought it was the neatest way to reuse old gravel, > > > > > and it > > > > > > > > > looked really cool too. You could always keep fish that like > > > > > to have > > > > > > > > > lots of vertical room in that hex, and get a higher powered > > light > > > > > > > > for it > > > > > > > > > so that the plants grow better. Have you thought about > > > > > lowering the > > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > > so it's not so hard to clean? I have a 125 gallon tank that > > is a > > > > > > > > pain to > > > > > > > > > add plants to because it is so deep (goes up to my armpit, > > > > > LOL), so I > > > > > > > > > know how it goes about taking a bath. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you considered a low light walstad setup for the hex? > > > > > that way you > > > > > > > > > don't need to do as many heavy cleanings and get yourself > > > > > soaked in the > > > > > > > > > process. I don't gravel clean my walstad tanks because they > > are > > > > so > > > > > > > > > heavily planted (and there is soil under the gravel that I > > would > > > > > > > > suck up > > > > > > > > > if I did a deep cleaning). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 7:14 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, Amber: > > > > > > > > > > To clarify: the 100 hex is going the way of the dodo bird > > > > > :-) due to > > > > > > > > > > it's depth it is a pain to keep clean without taking a bath > > > > > yourself, > > > > > > > > > > not to mention that growing live plants in it is difficult > > > > > at best. > > > > > > > > > > It was fun to initially set up and is a nearly 5' tall > > > > > conversation > > > > > > > > > > piece, but now I may just put it in the yard and make a > > planter > > > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > > > it - don't know yet.....suggestions??!!??? > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you going to keep the hex up and running or just > > transfer > > > > > > > > all your > > > > > > > > > > > fish over to the new tank? > > > > > > > > > > > I'm just slightly confused so I wanted to clarify, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 5/3/2011 12:50 PM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mostly lurk but just wanted to jump in and thank all > > > > > of you > > > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > > > > > > great threads of late on new tank cycles - informative > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > entertaining - hard to beat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In two weeks I will be ready to set up a new 120G long > > to > > > > > > > > replace my > > > > > > > > > > > > 100G 36" tall hex, which currently has an Eheim Pro II > > > > > > > > canister & an > > > > > > > > > > > > HOB Aquaclear 110 on it. I am going to use that > > existing > > > > > HOB to > > > > > > > > > > > > "cycle" the new 120G, which will be planted as well. In > > > > > addition I > > > > > > > > > > > > will be using either Nutrafin Cycle or Gel Filter > > > > Innoculant > > > > > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > > > > > to the manufacturers direction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Once things stabilize, I will start transferring fish > > > > > over a > > > > > > > > few at a > > > > > > > > > > > > time over a period of days. Once they are all moved > > over, I > > > > > > > > will also > > > > > > > > > > > > move the Eheim Pro II over the the 120G as well. > > > > > Obviously, I > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > be cleaning any of the aforementioned filters prior to > > > > > any of > > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the same strategy I used to set up the hex and > > was > > > > > > > > successful > > > > > > > > > > > > then. The most recent postings have been very helpful, > > > > > but any > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > > suggestions or recommendations to move things in the > > right > > > > > > > > direction > > > > > > > > > > > > are welcome as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to be as careful as possible as the 110G hex is > > > > > holding > > > > > > > > all of > > > > > > > > > > > > my most precious fishes; 6 Roseline sharks, 4 Iranian > > Red > > > > > > > > Rainbows > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > my Electric Blue Rams and Appisto Agazziz pair, peacock > > > > > eel and > > > > > > > > > > dragon > > > > > > > > > > > > goby, among a few others. All of my fish need more > > swimming > > > > > > > > room and > > > > > > > > > > > > the hex is a pain in the butt to clean as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am in no way an "expert" but have good local support > > > > > from an > > > > > > > > > > > > excellent small LFS filled with the most knowledgeable > > > > > folks :-) I > > > > > > > > > > > > promise not to get my panties all tied in a knot or > > feel > > > > > > > > > > threatened by > > > > > > > > > > > > any constructive advice offered here LOL > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > > > the > > > > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> > > > > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > > > can > > > > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home > > > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > > you > > > > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! > > > > Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51362	From: Mï®zå Úmêr	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Lazy fishes need some help!

Hi thre i have a question to expertise/aquarists through this problem  of fresh water that i have a goldfish who remains at the top at water plate while others fishes are resting down or in still position, it comes down to suck gravel but it also usually goes up automatically looks it doesnt want to go. theres white skin at its top fin since i bought it but recovering as before, sometimes look that it has problem in swimming and forcing itself to swim, not comfortly like other fishes, i m feding it peas now ..plz help on this And second fish is my black moor rests down on gravel most of the time and comes up only when i feed it, it rotated it self three or four days before i fed it than i put some salt in aquarium so it looked better but again same. i m now using peas to feed it in separate breeders net as before i put peas in auqarium but eaten by other fishes now i m feeding spearately and it looking better than before, now a days when i m opening my power filter (spong) it gets down  and if its off than it comes to normal swim lil bit curved whiles swim slowly, so any help to remain better position and future care about fishes . goldfish picture: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/220420111361.jpg/ blackmoor: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/140420111135.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/150420111311.jpg/ my aquarium is about 3ftby 2ft by 15inch (how much gallon i dont no exactly may be about 40 or 50) i weekly change water about 25% i also used Oxy-Cure named product in the tank for this issue suggested by aquarium sellers here. for water quality i use methalyne blue, water cleaner weekkly, rid all General Aid weekly and monthly antichlorine. i have 2 undergravel filters, a bubble tube and a power filter which is 1400 litres perhour filtration. as i searched that goldfish should be feed at 2 minutes period and i feed them 2 times a day and put that food in water before feeding them. i use bloodworms ,flakes and c.p mix diet.. could u suggest how much quantity do i use or what food? ill be thankful any other information u require so ill tell. i ve already asked some expert but didnt satisfy me and answered in way to just pass plz help coz i m new and this hobby had one month. link to vdo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_vSH_JlB0 thanks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51363	From: Al Keep	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!

hi there. i'm no expert but that looks like an awefull lot of fish in that video for that size of tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Mï®zå Úmêr <umer785633@...> wrote: > > Hi thre > i have a question to expertise/aquarists through this problem  of fresh water that i have a goldfish who remains at the top at water plate while others fishes are resting down or in still position, it comes down to suck gravel but it also usually goes up automatically looks it doesnt want to go. theres white skin at its top fin since i bought it but recovering as before, sometimes look that it has problem in swimming and forcing itself to swim, not comfortly like other fishes, i m feding it peas now ..plz help on this > And second fish is my black moor rests down on gravel most of the time and comes up only when i feed it, it rotated it self three or four days before i fed it than i put some salt in aquarium so it looked better but again same. i m now using peas to feed it in separate breeders net as before i put peas in auqarium but eaten by other fishes now i m feeding spearately and it looking better than before, now a days when i m opening my power filter (spong) it gets down  and if its off than it comes to normal swim lil bit curved whiles swim slowly, so any help to remain better position and future care about fishes . > goldfish picture: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/220420111361.jpg/ > blackmoor: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/140420111135.jpg/ > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/150420111311.jpg/ > my aquarium is about 3ftby 2ft by 15inch (how much gallon i dont no exactly may be about 40 or 50) > i weekly change water about 25% > i also used Oxy-Cure named product in the tank for this issue suggested by aquarium sellers here. > for water quality i use methalyne blue, water cleaner weekkly, rid all General Aid weekly > and monthly antichlorine. > i have 2 undergravel filters, a bubble tube and a power filter which is 1400 litres perhour filtration. > as i searched that goldfish should be feed at 2 minutes period and i feed them 2 times a day and put that food in water before feeding them. > i use bloodworms ,flakes and c.p mix diet.. could u suggest how much quantity do i use or what food? > ill be thankful > any other information u require so ill tell. > i ve already asked some expert but didnt satisfy me and answered in way to just pass > plz help coz i m new and this hobby had one month. > link to vdo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_vSH_JlB0 > thanks. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51364	From: haecklers	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: vacation - 1 month old fry??

What do you do if you have to go out of town for a few days and you've got baby fish? The bettas will be around 3 weeks old by then - still pretty small and needy. I heard they starve after 1 day with no food. I don't know anyone who I trust to feed them right.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51365	From: William M	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??

In a case like that , if you put plenty of live fine leaved aquatic plants in with the young, there might be enough live food in the form of infusoria to help feed them for a few days until you get back. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What do you do if you have to go out of town for a few days and you've got baby fish? The bettas will be around 3 weeks old by then - still pretty small and needy. I heard they starve after 1 day with no food. > > I don't know anyone who I trust to feed them right. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51366	From: haecklers	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!

Yes, and quite a few of them are fast growers, so they'll soon be even more overcrowded. They sure are beautiful fish tho! The bubble body fish like your moor have been bred for a birth defect that affects how well their internal organs can function, so they won't live all that long unless they're just really lucky, imho. Your tank is 55 gallons - 24 inches x 36 inches x 15 inches divided by 231 cubic inches per gallon. To have them that healthy and the water that clear with them so crowded, you must be taking really good care of them. I'd personally put less chemicals in their water just because I fear the long-terms effects of them, I don't think chemicals are natural but to each his own on that one. It looks like it's mostly working for you. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi there. > i'm no expert but that looks like an awefull lot of fish in that video for that size of tank. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Mï®zå Úmêr <umer785633@> wrote: > > > > Hi thre > > i have a question to expertise/aquarists through this problem  of fresh water that i have a goldfish who remains at the top at water plate while others fishes are resting down or in still position, it comes down to suck gravel but it also usually goes up automatically looks it doesnt want to go. theres white skin at its top fin since i bought it but recovering as before, sometimes look that it has problem in swimming and forcing itself to swim, not comfortly like other fishes, i m feding it peas now ..plz help on this > > And second fish is my black moor rests down on gravel most of the time and comes up only when i feed it, it rotated it self three or four days before i fed it than i put some salt in aquarium so it looked better but again same. i m now using peas to feed it in separate breeders net as before i put peas in auqarium but eaten by other fishes now i m feeding spearately and it looking better than before, now a days when i m opening my power filter (spong) it gets down  and if its off than it comes to normal swim lil bit curved whiles swim slowly, so any help to remain better position and future care about fishes . > > goldfish picture: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/220420111361.jpg/ > > blackmoor: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/140420111135.jpg/ > > http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/150420111311.jpg/ > > my aquarium is about 3ftby 2ft by 15inch (how much gallon i dont no exactly may be about 40 or 50) > > i weekly change water about 25% > > i also used Oxy-Cure named product in the tank for this issue suggested by aquarium sellers here. > > for water quality i use methalyne blue, water cleaner weekkly, rid all General Aid weekly > > and monthly antichlorine. > > i have 2 undergravel filters, a bubble tube and a power filter which is 1400 litres perhour filtration. > > as i searched that goldfish should be feed at 2 minutes period and i feed them 2 times a day and put that food in water before feeding them. > > i use bloodworms ,flakes and c.p mix diet.. could u suggest how much quantity do i use or what food? > > ill be thankful > > any other information u require so ill tell. > > i ve already asked some expert but didnt satisfy me and answered in way to just pass > > plz help coz i m new and this hobby had one month. > > link to vdo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_vSH_JlB0 > > thanks. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51367	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: Lazy fishes need some help!

Unfortunately, I am not much of a goldfish person, but it seems to me that either this guy has a problem with his swim bladder or is swallowing too much atmospheric air when eating at the surface. I'd move him to my quarantine tank, add about 1 tblsp Epsom salt per five gallons, and feed a diet high in vegetable matter, taking care to soak it so it sinks rather than remains at the surface. It may take a while for this to remedy itself, and I am sure that some of the goldfish people here can step in with more specific instructions. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mï®zå Úmêr Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:19 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Lazy fishes need some help! Hi thre i have a question to expertise/aquarists through this problem  of fresh water that i have a goldfish who remains at the top at water plate while others fishes are resting down or in still position, it comes down to suck gravel but it also usually goes up automatically looks it doesnt want to go. theres white skin at its top fin since i bought it but recovering as before, sometimes look that it has problem in swimming and forcing itself to swim, not comfortly like other fishes, i m feding it peas now ..plz help on this And second fish is my black moor rests down on gravel most of the time and comes up only when i feed it, it rotated it self three or four days before i fed it than i put some salt in aquarium so it looked better but again same. i m now using peas to feed it in separate breeders net as before i put peas in auqarium but eaten by other fishes now i m feeding spearately and it looking better than before, now a days when i m opening my power filter (spong) it gets down  and if its off than it comes to normal swim lil bit curved whiles swim slowly, so any help to remain better position and future care about fishes . goldfish picture: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/847/220420111361.jpg/ blackmoor: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/842/140420111135.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/150420111311.jpg/ my aquarium is about 3ftby 2ft by 15inch (how much gallon i dont no exactly may be about 40 or 50) i weekly change water about 25% i also used Oxy-Cure named product in the tank for this issue suggested by aquarium sellers here. for water quality i use methalyne blue, water cleaner weekkly, rid all General Aid weekly and monthly antichlorine. i have 2 undergravel filters, a bubble tube and a power filter which is 1400 litres perhour filtration. as i searched that goldfish should be feed at 2 minutes period and i feed them 2 times a day and put that food in water before feeding them. i use bloodworms ,flakes and c.p mix diet.. could u suggest how much quantity do i use or what food? ill be thankful any other information u require so ill tell. i ve already asked some expert but didnt satisfy me and answered in way to just pass plz help coz i m new and this hobby had one month. link to vdo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM_vSH_JlB0 thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51368	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??

What food[s] are you using for your babies? If it is dry foodstuffs then what I would do is get some ziplock baggies, into each one put the exact amount of food you would feed your fish at each sitting, then label that bag with a day [& time of feeding if necessary] then whoever looks after your fish cannot make an error. You also need to oversee them feeding your fish a couple of times before you go away just as a 'dry run' to make sure they do everything properly & can open & close your tank ok. Once you have bagged the correct amount of food then hide the rest-or take it with you! Then you should be worry-free. John*<o)))<* On 11 May 2011 00:28, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > What do you do if you have to go out of town for a few days and you've got > baby fish? The bettas will be around 3 weeks old by then - still pretty > small and needy. I heard they starve after 1 day with no food. > > I don't know anyone who I trust to feed them right. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51369	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/10/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??

Make up as many packets as you need to feed your guys for at least the amount of time you are planning to be away--a few extra will not hurt, just in case, then find someone and impress upon them one packet only per feeding however many times you are feeding them now. If you just leave them, you'll likely lose most of them, if not all, so this does give you a chance to keep most, if not all, the fry. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 7:28 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] vacation - 1 month old fry?? What do you do if you have to go out of town for a few days and you've got baby fish? The bettas will be around 3 weeks old by then - still pretty small and needy. I heard they starve after 1 day with no food. I don't know anyone who I trust to feed them right.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51370	From: Cindy Johnston	Date: 5/11/2011
Subject: Molly and platties

I have a question. My male platy died today. Don't know why. And now my male molly is going after the female platys and trying to mate with them. Can Mollies and Platys reproduce? My male platy that died never wanted any thing to do with the females. Almost as the females did not exist. I have 2 other Male mollies (Balloons Mollies) that just stay to themselves. Its my Dalmatian that is the horny one.    Cindy The Heart Feels What The Eyes Can Not See And Know What The Mind Cannot Understand. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51371	From: haecklers	Date: 5/11/2011
Subject: Re: vacation - 1 month old fry??

At 3 weeks they would be eating live brine shrimp or microworms. I could maybe try decap. brine shrimp eggs, tho, but am not sure how long I'd have to train them to eat them. For the first few weeks their mouths are too small for them. My gourmi fry wouldn't take non-living food the first month and a half, I'd guess betta fry are similar, tho I've heard some breeders put them on golden pearls at a pretty young age. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > What food[s] are you using for your babies? If it is dry foodstuffs then > what I would do is get some ziplock baggies, into each one put the exact > amount of food you would feed your fish at each sitting, then label that bag > with a day [& time of feeding if necessary] then whoever looks after your > fish cannot make an error. You also need to oversee them feeding your fish a > couple of times before you go away just as a 'dry run' to make sure they do > everything properly & can open & close your tank ok. Once you have bagged > the correct amount of food then hide the rest-or take it with you! Then you > should be worry-free. > > John*<o)))<* > > On 11 May 2011 00:28, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > > > What do you do if you have to go out of town for a few days and you've got > > baby fish? The bettas will be around 3 weeks old by then - still pretty > > small and needy. I heard they starve after 1 day with no food. > > > > I don't know anyone who I trust to feed them right. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51372	From: caroline cormier	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: watch until the end .....

Turn up the speakers > >http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=WK2LpUoqX6A&vq=medium [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51373	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Re: watch until the end .....

Really Kool! TY! ________________________________ From: caroline cormier <waves022@...> To: Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:26 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] watch until the end .....   Turn up the speakers > >http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=WK2LpUoqX6A&vq=medium [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51374	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Re: watch until the end .....

Excellent-thanks for posting! John*<o)))<* On 12 May 2011 21:19, Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> wrote: > > > Really Kool! TY! > > ________________________________ > From: caroline cormier <waves022@...> > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 12:26 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] watch until the end ..... > > � > Turn up the speakers > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=WK2LpUoqX6A&vq=medium > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51375	From: chloelikeohman@yahoo.com	Date: 5/12/2011
Subject: Questions

Just curious to know if anyone knew the answers to some of my questions... Can platys breed among the different kinds? I.e. Mickey mouse with sunburst? how big do"painted glass" fish get and how can you tell the gender of them? how long are the livebearers gestation periods and how many babies are had on average? can guppys interbreed among kinds? I.e. Fancy and tequila sunrise? how do you tell the gender of neon tetras and how do they have fry? I know theyre egg layers but do they need a special environment? i hope that wasnt too many questions. I am just now getting into aquariu and would like to know these things for my own knowledge. any answers will help and update on sunburst platy with bloat-shes all better! Used salt and just let nature take its course thanks for all the help with that last week. -Chloe*<3(:

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51376	From: haecklers	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Questions

Platies will breed with other kinds of platies - the names are just names of color varieties, it's like asking if an orange cat will breed with a white one - yes they will and you'll get a mix of colors in the offspring (maybe some new ones you like better than the parents!) Same thing for guppies. Gestation for guppies is 21 days, I think platies are similar. When they're young the females are smaller so they have fewer fry - like maybe 10 or so but they grow much larger and then can have a lot of fry - I've had mature guppies have 50 or more at a time. At that point you'll need some fish that will eat a lot of the fry so you don't get overcrowded. I've got my guppies in with angelfish in one tank and a female betta and two pearl gouramis in another. The angelfish eat every last fry (they're around 7 mo. now so they're getting a pretty good size), the betta and gourami will leave the fastest-swimming, most alert ones so we're getting a gradually increasing population in there (but the gourami are having hundreds of babies a week so maybe they're just all full). If you buy one of those plain little female bettas in the pet stores for $2, odds are you'll get a gorgeous fish in a few months - the trend is for them to sell them really young and the colors haven't even developed yet. With the genetics of the bettas lately the females are every bit as colorful and pretty as the males, just shorter fins which means they can actually swim like a fish. They're great "weeding" fish because they usually can't eat all the fry but they'll leave the most alert ones, which usually are the healthiest ones. If you want to keep and raise your fry, a planted tank would be best. The plants provide a good ecosystem for a lot of the small things baby fish eat. I don't even feed my baby guppies, they find their own food in the tank, which is heavily planted. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, chloelikeohman@... wrote: > > Just curious to know if anyone knew the answers to some of my questions... > Can platys breed among the different kinds? I.e. Mickey mouse with sunburst? > how big do"painted glass" fish get and how can you tell the gender of them? > how long are the livebearers gestation periods and how many babies are had on average? > can guppys interbreed among kinds? I.e. Fancy and tequila sunrise? > how do you tell the gender of neon tetras and how do they have fry? I know theyre egg layers but do they need a special environment? > > i hope that wasnt too many questions. I am just now getting into aquariu and would like to know these things for my own knowledge. > any answers will help > > and update on sunburst platy with bloat-shes all better! Used salt and just let nature take its course > thanks for all the help with that last week. > > -Chloe*<3(: >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51377	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of that contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses that their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something wonderfully peculiar! Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, which isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see a horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely because of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm unaware of. By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does live up to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... Check out the amazing video below: [at site] Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like small dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this their armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the sea dragon name really fits. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51378	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Questions

Platys can breed with other platys. You are talking varieties of plays here, which are all the same species or hybrid mix. You should am not to breed among varieties so as not to muddle the genetics that developed them and thus keeping the strain you have pure. The same holds true for guppies. Painted glass fish are a man-made fish, and the painted look does not last nor is it passed along genetically. I do not know how to sex them off the top of my head, but you should be able to find out in a good book (Baensch's Aquarium Atlas is recommended) or online. The gestation period of a given livebearer will vary depending on the fish, the most common average running 27-32 days. The length of this period depends upon species, water parameters, and diet even with the same species. Hmm, an interesting thought just crossed my mind, and that is whether there is a common variation between the types of livebearers. (Yes, there are a couple of different methods fish use to produce live young.) \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chloelikeohman@... Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 11:03 PM To: "AquaticLife"; "Tropical fish club" Subject: [AquaticLife] Questions Just curious to know if anyone knew the answers to some of my questions... Can platys breed among the different kinds? I.e. Mickey mouse with sunburst? how big do"painted glass" fish get and how can you tell the gender of them? how long are the livebearers gestation periods and how many babies are had on average? can guppys interbreed among kinds? I.e. Fancy and tequila sunrise? how do you tell the gender of neon tetras and how do they have fry? I know theyre egg layers but do they need a special environment? i hope that wasnt too many questions. I am just now getting into aquariu and would like to know these things for my own knowledge. any answers will help and update on sunburst platy with bloat-shes all better! Used salt and just let nature take its course thanks for all the help with that last week. -Chloe*<3(:

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51379	From: Andy Mills	Date: 5/13/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

I remember seeing some of these fish at a public aquarium years ago, they were certainly strange looking. They seemed very curious and were swimming right close to the front of the tank which made it easy for me to see them. A few months later it was in the local newspaper that the fish had to be taken off public display as they were getting very stressed due to people tapping on the front of the tank, I think the article said they'd actually lost some of the fish due to stress. I haven't been to the aquarium again since, so I don't know whether they've still got them or whether they're being displayed, but they were one of my favourite fish at the aquarium. On 13/05/2011 16:57, Steve Szabo wrote: > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq > > Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of that contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses that their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something wonderfully peculiar! > > Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, which isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see a horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely because of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm unaware of. > > By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does live up to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... > > Check out the amazing video below: [at site] > > Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like small dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this their armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the sea dragon name really fits. > > \\Steve// > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > . >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51380	From: john Lewis	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

Hello: What a phenomenal group of fishes. I've always been fascinated by Sea Dragons. They truly are unique and beautiful denizens of the sea. Thanx for posting. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 11:57:08 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of that contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses that their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something wonderfully peculiar! Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, which isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see a horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely because of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm unaware of. By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does live up to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... Check out the amazing video below: [at site] Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like small dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this their armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the sea dragon name really fits. \\Steve// [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51381	From: Deb	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: rummy nose and cardinals

Does anyone know a good source to ship me some rummy nose tetras and cardinals? I bought them from Discus Hans a while ago but he's not distributing them right now. OR, anyone know a good fish place in Charleston, SC; Hilton Head, SC; Savannah, GA or Jacksonville, FL? All within a few hours. thanks. Deborah

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51382	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/14/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

Hi Steve, Certainly the weirdest fish I have ever seen-I look forward to your next offering! Thanks for posting. John*<o)))< * On 14 May 2011 03:30, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > > > Hello: > What a phenomenal group of fishes. I've always been fascinated by Sea > Dragons. They truly are unique and beautiful denizens of the sea. Thanx for > > posting. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 11:57:08 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html > > http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq > > Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of > that > contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses > that > their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something > > wonderfully peculiar! > > Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine > namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, > which > isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see > a > horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely > because > of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm > unaware > of. > > By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does > live up > to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... > > Check out the amazing video below: [at site] > > Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like > small > dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this > their > armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the > sea > dragon name really fits. > > \\Steve// > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51383	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

Beautiful! I think they look a little like leafy kangaroos! ;o) ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > Certainly the weirdest fish I have ever seen-I look forward to your next > offering! Thanks for posting. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > On 14 May 2011 03:30, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hello: > > What a phenomenal group of fishes. I've always been fascinated by Sea > > Dragons. They truly are unique and beautiful denizens of the sea. Thanx for > > > > posting. > > Have a Great Day!!! > > Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> > > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 11:57:08 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > > > > > > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html > > > > http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq > > > > Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > > > The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of > > that > > contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses > > that > > their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something > > > > wonderfully peculiar! > > > > Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine > > namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, > > which > > isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see > > a > > horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely > > because > > of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm > > unaware > > of. > > > > By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does > > live up > > to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... > > > > Check out the amazing video below: [at site] > > > > Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like > > small > > dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this > > their > > armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the > > sea > > dragon name really fits. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51384	From: Thorn	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: just to say hi

hi to all, i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. just thought i'd introduce myself :)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51385	From: haecklers	Date: 5/15/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@...> wrote: > > hi to all, > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > just thought i'd introduce myself :) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51386	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

i have a tank of veil tail fry at the moment (mother is deep black with red fins and the father is blue black and red) also just had a succsessful pairing with my mustard male veil and my white and red female crowntail, looking for some nice colouration of fry with them:)....... still havent decided on my next pair yet as i have quite a few id like to try but its just deciding which to go with which lol thats great about your daughters its great when you get your first spawn.:) salmon and black and red sounds like a great pair,would be nice to see what fry came out :) what breeding technique do you use? i use the jar method with 3 different females to my male and let him decided. i also find that on there second spawn the females carry more eggs have you had this with yours? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? > > We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. > > My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). > > She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. > > She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > hi to all, > > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > > just thought i'd introduce myself :) > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51387	From: Etac Clubs	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Hi all. Anybody from East Tennessee?

New to this group but I have started a group for freshwater enthusiasts in East Tennessee. Trying to get a club started here and am using this group to do that. If you would like to join my group and start meeting face-to-face with other's of the same interests, please join my group and lets get this started. Hope to see you there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ETnAC/

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51388	From: haecklers	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

We put one female in a blender with the bottom removed, the male is in the 10-gallon. We lift it often to mix the water so they can smell each other. Once he builds a bubble nest or at least picks his area we let her out. They seem to like to spawn in the morning so from now on we'll let her out at night and let them spawn in the morning at first light (if they can figure it out by then - LOL!). Your pairing sounds like the opposite of ours - we had a female mustard gas and a male cambodian (white body, red fins). We got a huge variety of colors, and evidently they were both butterfly because all the fry were - we even got some 3-color butterfly ones. I've never heard of letting the male decide. That sounds cool! We borrowed a Giant betta from a pet store to try to breed more but the females kept dropping their eggs before we even let them out - I guess he gave off a lot of pheromones or something. He was really rough on them too - bit their bodies and pulled off scales, so we decided to give him back without a successful spawning. I read the half-giants, which only have 1 gene, get to 3.5" but if you can breed a male half-giant with a female half-giant you can get a full giant which can grow to 7"! You can't find the female half-giants around here, they only sell males, but we wanted to try that. So we were going to keep a male and female from the spawn and try an F2 to see if we got any full-giants. The woman at the pet store (our co-conspirator who also wants to see a full giant) says she has another one we can try - a marbled one, but we had one female die and another is still healing, not sure how many more I want to risk if that one's as mean as the one we're giving back. We've yet to spawn a female twice. If we do, I'll let you know. Have you had any males who knock themselves out when they spawn? Our orange one did. He had us laughing so hard! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@...> wrote: > > i have a tank of veil tail fry at the moment (mother is deep black with red fins and the father is blue black and red) also just had a succsessful pairing with my mustard male veil and my white and red female crowntail, looking for some nice colouration of fry with them:)....... still havent decided on my next pair yet as i have quite a few id like to try but its just deciding which to go with which lol > > thats great about your daughters its great when you get your first spawn.:) > salmon and black and red sounds like a great pair,would be nice to see what fry came out :) > > what breeding technique do you use? > i use the jar method with 3 different females to my male and let him decided. > i also find that on there second spawn the females carry more eggs have you had this with yours? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? > > > > We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. > > > > My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). > > > > She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. > > > > She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > hi to all, > > > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > > > just thought i'd introduce myself :) > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51389	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

i'd like to try and do it your way i think just for a change :) hopefully with the pairing ill get as much variety as you i've never come across a halfgiant let alone a full round here, will have to ask around then again if its as violent as you say i dont think i could risk my girls lol omg knocking himself out ive heard everything now lol. never had a male do that id find it funny too lol --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > We put one female in a blender with the bottom removed, the male is in the 10-gallon. We lift it often to mix the water so they can smell each other. Once he builds a bubble nest or at least picks his area we let her out. They seem to like to spawn in the morning so from now on we'll let her out at night and let them spawn in the morning at first light (if they can figure it out by then - LOL!). > > Your pairing sounds like the opposite of ours - we had a female mustard gas and a male cambodian (white body, red fins). We got a huge variety of colors, and evidently they were both butterfly because all the fry were - we even got some 3-color butterfly ones. > > I've never heard of letting the male decide. That sounds cool! > > We borrowed a Giant betta from a pet store to try to breed more but the females kept dropping their eggs before we even let them out - I guess he gave off a lot of pheromones or something. He was really rough on them too - bit their bodies and pulled off scales, so we decided to give him back without a successful spawning. > > I read the half-giants, which only have 1 gene, get to 3.5" but if you can breed a male half-giant with a female half-giant you can get a full giant which can grow to 7"! You can't find the female half-giants around here, they only sell males, but we wanted to try that. So we were going to keep a male and female from the spawn and try an F2 to see if we got any full-giants. The woman at the pet store (our co-conspirator who also wants to see a full giant) says she has another one we can try - a marbled one, but we had one female die and another is still healing, not sure how many more I want to risk if that one's as mean as the one we're giving back. > > We've yet to spawn a female twice. If we do, I'll let you know. > > Have you had any males who knock themselves out when they spawn? Our orange one did. He had us laughing so hard! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > i have a tank of veil tail fry at the moment (mother is deep black with red fins and the father is blue black and red) also just had a succsessful pairing with my mustard male veil and my white and red female crowntail, looking for some nice colouration of fry with them:)....... still havent decided on my next pair yet as i have quite a few id like to try but its just deciding which to go with which lol > > > > thats great about your daughters its great when you get your first spawn.:) > > salmon and black and red sounds like a great pair,would be nice to see what fry came out :) > > > > what breeding technique do you use? > > i use the jar method with 3 different females to my male and let him decided. > > i also find that on there second spawn the females carry more eggs have you had this with yours? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? > > > > > > We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. > > > > > > My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). > > > > > > She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. > > > > > > She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > > > hi to all, > > > > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > > > > just thought i'd introduce myself :) > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51390	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

Steve, what about the blanket octopus for one of our weird fish of the wk topics? I tried to contact you off group about it but the email wouldn't go through... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq > > Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of that contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses that their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something wonderfully peculiar! > > Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, which isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see a horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely because of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm unaware of. > > By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does live up to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... > > Check out the amazing video below: [at site] > > Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like small dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this their armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the sea dragon name really fits. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51391	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon

Hey, I steal this stuff so what the offer for me to steal. I post. We are not doing requests. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 6:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon Steve, what about the blanket octopus for one of our weird fish of the wk topics? I tried to contact you off group about it but the email wouldn't go through... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3879&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=April_28_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Weedy_sea_dragon&utm_content=html > http://tinyurl.com/44oj3mq > > Weird fish of the week: Weedy sea dragon > > The Weedy sea dragon is a member of the Syngnathidae family, a group of that contains the seahorses and pipefish. We're all so familiar with seahorses that their weirdness has become almost unremarkable but this really is something wonderfully peculiar! > > Let's face it, the seahorses are not really that similar to their equine namesakes are they? There's the distinct absence of hooves for a start, which isn't surprising given the lack of legs to put them on and I've yet to see a horse with a prehensile tail. Their common name's nod to nags is purely because of the shape of their heads, unless they have a love of sugar lumps I'm unaware of. > > By contrast the Weedy sea dragon (Phyllopteryx taeniolatus) really does live up to its mythological moniker perhaps with the exception of fire breathing... > > Check out the amazing video below: [at site] > > Growing to around 45cm/18in, these marvellous mimics really do look like small dragons, complete with a set of wing like fins on their backs. Add to this their armoured body covered in bony plates, long tail and crested head and the sea dragon name really fits. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51392	From: haecklers	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

They call them "King" bettas and around here they sell for $30 each. Since you can never find females of them I'd guess they'd sell for a lot more online. I heard it's hard to breed two half-giants - their spawns are really small when you do succeed, like 7 or 8 fry is all you get, and only 1/4 of them would be full giants. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@...> wrote: > > > i'd like to try and do it your way i think just for a change :) > hopefully with the pairing ill get as much variety as you > i've never come across a halfgiant let alone a full round here, > will have to ask around then again if its as violent as you say i dont think i could risk my girls lol > > omg knocking himself out ive heard everything now lol. never had a male do that id find it funny too lol > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > We put one female in a blender with the bottom removed, the male is in the 10-gallon. We lift it often to mix the water so they can smell each other. Once he builds a bubble nest or at least picks his area we let her out. They seem to like to spawn in the morning so from now on we'll let her out at night and let them spawn in the morning at first light (if they can figure it out by then - LOL!). > > > > Your pairing sounds like the opposite of ours - we had a female mustard gas and a male cambodian (white body, red fins). We got a huge variety of colors, and evidently they were both butterfly because all the fry were - we even got some 3-color butterfly ones. > > > > I've never heard of letting the male decide. That sounds cool! > > > > We borrowed a Giant betta from a pet store to try to breed more but the females kept dropping their eggs before we even let them out - I guess he gave off a lot of pheromones or something. He was really rough on them too - bit their bodies and pulled off scales, so we decided to give him back without a successful spawning. > > > > I read the half-giants, which only have 1 gene, get to 3.5" but if you can breed a male half-giant with a female half-giant you can get a full giant which can grow to 7"! You can't find the female half-giants around here, they only sell males, but we wanted to try that. So we were going to keep a male and female from the spawn and try an F2 to see if we got any full-giants. The woman at the pet store (our co-conspirator who also wants to see a full giant) says she has another one we can try - a marbled one, but we had one female die and another is still healing, not sure how many more I want to risk if that one's as mean as the one we're giving back. > > > > We've yet to spawn a female twice. If we do, I'll let you know. > > > > Have you had any males who knock themselves out when they spawn? Our orange one did. He had us laughing so hard! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > i have a tank of veil tail fry at the moment (mother is deep black with red fins and the father is blue black and red) also just had a succsessful pairing with my mustard male veil and my white and red female crowntail, looking for some nice colouration of fry with them:)....... still havent decided on my next pair yet as i have quite a few id like to try but its just deciding which to go with which lol > > > > > > thats great about your daughters its great when you get your first spawn.:) > > > salmon and black and red sounds like a great pair,would be nice to see what fry came out :) > > > > > > what breeding technique do you use? > > > i use the jar method with 3 different females to my male and let him decided. > > > i also find that on there second spawn the females carry more eggs have you had this with yours? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? > > > > > > > > We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. > > > > > > > > My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). > > > > > > > > She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. > > > > > > > > She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > hi to all, > > > > > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > > > > > just thought i'd introduce myself :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51393	From: Thorn	Date: 5/16/2011
Subject: Re: just to say hi

jeeze thats alot of work for not tht gd results then. will have to look into how much apair go for over here :) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > They call them "King" bettas and around here they sell for $30 each. Since you can never find females of them I'd guess they'd sell for a lot more online. > > I heard it's hard to breed two half-giants - their spawns are really small when you do succeed, like 7 or 8 fry is all you get, and only 1/4 of them would be full giants. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > i'd like to try and do it your way i think just for a change :) > > hopefully with the pairing ill get as much variety as you > > i've never come across a halfgiant let alone a full round here, > > will have to ask around then again if its as violent as you say i dont think i could risk my girls lol > > > > omg knocking himself out ive heard everything now lol. never had a male do that id find it funny too lol > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > We put one female in a blender with the bottom removed, the male is in the 10-gallon. We lift it often to mix the water so they can smell each other. Once he builds a bubble nest or at least picks his area we let her out. They seem to like to spawn in the morning so from now on we'll let her out at night and let them spawn in the morning at first light (if they can figure it out by then - LOL!). > > > > > > Your pairing sounds like the opposite of ours - we had a female mustard gas and a male cambodian (white body, red fins). We got a huge variety of colors, and evidently they were both butterfly because all the fry were - we even got some 3-color butterfly ones. > > > > > > I've never heard of letting the male decide. That sounds cool! > > > > > > We borrowed a Giant betta from a pet store to try to breed more but the females kept dropping their eggs before we even let them out - I guess he gave off a lot of pheromones or something. He was really rough on them too - bit their bodies and pulled off scales, so we decided to give him back without a successful spawning. > > > > > > I read the half-giants, which only have 1 gene, get to 3.5" but if you can breed a male half-giant with a female half-giant you can get a full giant which can grow to 7"! You can't find the female half-giants around here, they only sell males, but we wanted to try that. So we were going to keep a male and female from the spawn and try an F2 to see if we got any full-giants. The woman at the pet store (our co-conspirator who also wants to see a full giant) says she has another one we can try - a marbled one, but we had one female die and another is still healing, not sure how many more I want to risk if that one's as mean as the one we're giving back. > > > > > > We've yet to spawn a female twice. If we do, I'll let you know. > > > > > > Have you had any males who knock themselves out when they spawn? Our orange one did. He had us laughing so hard! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > > > i have a tank of veil tail fry at the moment (mother is deep black with red fins and the father is blue black and red) also just had a succsessful pairing with my mustard male veil and my white and red female crowntail, looking for some nice colouration of fry with them:)....... still havent decided on my next pair yet as i have quite a few id like to try but its just deciding which to go with which lol > > > > > > > > thats great about your daughters its great when you get your first spawn.:) > > > > salmon and black and red sounds like a great pair,would be nice to see what fry came out :) > > > > > > > > what breeding technique do you use? > > > > i use the jar method with 3 different females to my male and let him decided. > > > > i also find that on there second spawn the females carry more eggs have you had this with yours? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi! Welcome! I'm breeding bettas too! We've got 2 tanks of fry now, and are planning a third. What kind do you breed? > > > > > > > > > > We're trying for some orange halfmoons but the mom is a mustard gas/multi so I'm hoping for some with black bodies, orange fins with black edges. I've got a nice yellow female with yellow fins that gradually turn dark red on the edges I'd like to breed with our orange male, once we get more room, or maybe one of the offspring of this pairing. > > > > > > > > > > My daughter chose two of hers to breed, an F2 of a pearly white female with lavender fins and her brother, who has black body and translucent black fins with nice royal blue iridescence. We're hoping to get more like either of them, and maybe some mustard gas (their mother was mustard gas). > > > > > > > > > > She just spotted a double tail mustard gas halfmoon at a pet store she wants to breed with our multi female, who is a halfmoon. We have high expectations for that pairing. The male has really excellent fins. > > > > > > > > > > She also wants to breed her favorite male from our current spawn - he has a black body and red fins with a black edge, and almost no iridescence. The red on him just glows. She has a salmon halfmoon female she may use in that - she's got white edges on her fins so we could get some cool fry from that pairing. The sister of that female just won in a betta show. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Thorn" <theoriginalpunkrockprincess@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > hi to all, > > > > > > i am a keeper of a wide veriety of tropical fish and also a breeder of bettas. > > > > > > just thought i'd introduce myself :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51394	From: alankya	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: cichlid problem

Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is just his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... Thanks for any suggestions! Annja

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51395	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

Hi Annja, Sorry to hear your fish is unwell-just my thoughts as I'm not familiar with Cichlid specifics but generally I would recommend testing all your parameters before making any decisions about putting him to sleep, the API Master Test Kit is a great tool for diagnosis. Although you have no ammonia there could be many things going awry-your pH could have risen or crashed & you wouldn't know or maybe your nitrate is sky-high. I would also suggest getting a kit to test your oxygen levels. Once you have the results of you water test you can make a better judgement-if the quality is poor then your maintenance/water change regime or filtration system will likely need revising. If all tests perfect then you need to think if you have done anything different with your tank recently-perhaps you have added or removed something-perhaps you have simply moved the tank to a different location in your home? Even a change in diet or lighting periods could have a significant effect. Can you see any unusual marks or damage on him & has he been acting any different lately? The fact that you have had these fish for over a year would suggest his problem could well lie with something environmental rather than him. John*<o)))<* On 18 May 2011 00:16, alankya <annja_1966@...> wrote: > > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow > electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light > purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing > normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for > ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is just > his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Annja > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51396	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

It sounds like you have a Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow one) and the barred fish could be any of a couple of fish, but possibly Labidochromis hongi. IME 30G tanks are 30" long and that might be too small for these fish. These fish live 8 years.one year and he is barely a teenager. Any missing scales or nipped/torn fins? The lab could very well have been the victim of aggression. So if your test results all come back OK and the fish is not gulping at the surface, then I would suspect aggression. It is often not witnessed. So put the lab in a cycled hospital tank by himself with very clean water (nitrates < 20ppm) and if it was aggression, he may well recover with no medications. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:02 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] cichlid problem Hi Annja, Sorry to hear your fish is unwell-just my thoughts as I'm not familiar with Cichlid specifics but generally I would recommend testing all your parameters before making any decisions about putting him to sleep, the API Master Test Kit is a great tool for diagnosis. Although you have no ammonia there could be many things going awry-your pH could have risen or crashed & you wouldn't know or maybe your nitrate is sky-high. I would also suggest getting a kit to test your oxygen levels. Once you have the results of you water test you can make a better judgement-if the quality is poor then your maintenance/water change regime or filtration system will likely need revising. If all tests perfect then you need to think if you have done anything different with your tank recently-perhaps you have added or removed something-perhaps you have simply moved the tank to a different location in your home? Even a change in diet or lighting periods could have a significant effect. Can you see any unusual marks or damage on him & has he been acting any different lately? The fact that you have had these fish for over a year would suggest his problem could well lie with something environmental rather than him. John*<o)))<* On 18 May 2011 00:16, alankya <annja_1966@... <mailto:annja_1966%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow > electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light > purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing > normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for > ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is just > his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Annja > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51397	From: kuradi8	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

Sounds like a territory issue over space. Do they each have caves or other hiding places that they can call their own? Are there plants or other decorations that break their line of sight from each other? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alankya" <annja_1966@...> wrote: > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is just his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Annja >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51398	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/17/2011
Subject: FW: NAS Species Alert - Ctenopharyngodon idella (MN)

This is for the native guys here, and may give hope to some of the old codgers who hang around that they may, yet, discover a new species. \\Steve// From: NAS_Alerts@... [mailto:NAS_Alerts@...] Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 5:24 PM To: Steve Szabo Subject: NAS Species Alert - Ctenopharyngodon idella (MN) An alert has been generated that matched your criteria from the Nonindigenous Aquatic Species database<http://nas.er.usgs.gov>: Ctenopharyngodon idella (grass carp) was found in a new Drainage, Details: State: MN County: Wabasha Drainage: Zumbro (7040004) Location: Lake Zumbro More information on this specimen can be found: http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/specimenviewer.asp?SpecimenID=275707 More information on this species can be found: http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/SpResults.asp?SpeciesID=514<http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/SpeciesList.asp?SpeciesID=514> This is an auto-generated e-mail from the US Geological Survey - Nonindigenous Aquatic Species database If you no longer wish to receive alerts, please visit: http://nas.er.usgs.gov/AlertSystem/unregister.asp [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51399	From: Kate Conrow	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: 7

How do you do? I have just visited a wonderful on-line drugstore so I recommend you to visit it.. http://www.cercasa.it/friends_links.php?duaolid=07j0

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51400	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

I'm wondering how big these fish are? At a yr or more old they should no longer fit together in a 30 gallon tank. These are all fish that average 5 - 7 inches long each when mature. Until you have the needed test kits to check water quality, can you at least provide us with some basic information, such as maintenance schedule, what you're offering for food and how often, water temp, etc.? Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "alankya" <annja_1966@...> wrote: > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is just his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > Thanks for any suggestions! > > Annja >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51401	From: haecklers	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

We had to remove one of our cichlids that looked half-dead from aggression, the only hospital tank we had available was only 2 gallons and he was 4", but he did actually recover in there! We did daily water changes and gave him some antibiotics because he got fin rot at an injury site. Once he had fully recovered we gave him to a local fish store, where he once again got bullied but yesterday when we went there he was doing the bullying and looked perfectly fine. Firemouths can get almost 7 inches long at full size, the 30 gallon is a bit small for them. I've heard conflicting things about keeping fish in small tanks - that it shortens their lives and causes damage to internal organs, but also that heavy, frequent water changes can offset that quite a bit. It may be a good time to check yard sales or freecycle for a tank upgrade, tho, if you have space. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > It sounds like you have a Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow one) and the > barred fish could be any of a couple of fish, but possibly Labidochromis > hongi. > > > > IME 30G tanks are 30" long and that might be too small for these fish. > > > > These fish live 8 years.one year and he is barely a teenager. > > > > Any missing scales or nipped/torn fins? > > > > The lab could very well have been the victim of aggression. So if your test > results all come back OK and the fish is not gulping at the surface, then I > would suspect aggression. It is often not witnessed. > > > > So put the lab in a cycled hospital tank by himself with very clean water > (nitrates < 20ppm) and if it was aggression, he may well recover with no > medications. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:02 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] cichlid problem > > > > > > Hi Annja, > > Sorry to hear your fish is unwell-just my thoughts as I'm not familiar > with Cichlid specifics but generally I would recommend testing all your > parameters before making any decisions about putting him to sleep, the API > Master Test Kit is a great tool for diagnosis. Although you have no ammonia > there could be many things going awry-your pH could have risen or crashed & > you wouldn't know or maybe your nitrate is sky-high. I would also suggest > getting a kit to test your oxygen levels. > > Once you have the results of you water test you can make a better > judgement-if the quality is poor then your maintenance/water change regime > or filtration system will likely need revising. If all tests perfect then > you need to think if you have done anything different with your tank > recently-perhaps you have added or removed something-perhaps you have simply > moved the tank to a different location in your home? Even a change in diet > or lighting periods could have a significant effect. > > Can you see any unusual marks or damage on him & has he been acting any > different lately? The fact that you have had these fish for over a year > would suggest his problem could well lie with something environmental rather > than him. > > John*<o)))<* > > On 18 May 2011 00:16, alankya <annja_1966@... > <mailto:annja_1966%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow > > electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is light > > purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon tank. > > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but breathing > > normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is for > > ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is > just > > his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > > > Annja > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51402	From: alankya	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

Thank you all for your replies! Unfortunately when I came home from work today, the fish was dead. As far as the others go, they are between 2" and 3" long. I agree the 30 gallon tank is probably too small. There are three plastic plants in it, also a fake tree stump that has all kinds of crevices and holes. I can't see getting a bigger tank, so I will take them to my LPS on the weekend.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51403	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: Re: cichlid problem

Keeping any fish in a tank that is really too small will result in problems & doing large & frequent water changes will offset these problems to a degree because it fools the fishes growth rate in to thinking he is in a much larger body of water than he really is so his hormonal growth rate will not be affected but this only works within reason. Before I knew much about fish keeping I kept my 5 Comets in a 20 gallon for 18 months about 5 years ago but luckily I did lots of water changes & had massive filtration so they thrived & today those 5 fish look big even in my 109 gallon! Freecycle is a great place to find large tanks for free & so is Craig's List for a fraction of the original price. One thing to check is the tank is really an aquatic one rather than a reptile vivarium. The Aquatic tanks are usually thicker glass with strengthening bars across the middle-especially if it is the breeder type of long thin tank. Whenever buying a second-hand tank always test fill it in the garden first for a few hours just to be on the safe side & also check that it does not bow in the middle when full. John*<o)))< * On 18 May 2011 11:46, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > We had to remove one of our cichlids that looked half-dead from aggression, > the only hospital tank we had available was only 2 gallons and he was 4", > but he did actually recover in there! We did daily water changes and gave > him some antibiotics because he got fin rot at an injury site. Once he had > fully recovered we gave him to a local fish store, where he once again got > bullied but yesterday when we went there he was doing the bullying and > looked perfectly fine. > > Firemouths can get almost 7 inches long at full size, the 30 gallon is a > bit small for them. I've heard conflicting things about keeping fish in > small tanks - that it shortens their lives and causes damage to internal > organs, but also that heavy, frequent water changes can offset that quite a > bit. It may be a good time to check yard sales or freecycle for a tank > upgrade, tho, if you have space. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > It sounds like you have a Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow one) and the > > barred fish could be any of a couple of fish, but possibly Labidochromis > > hongi. > > > > > > > > IME 30G tanks are 30" long and that might be too small for these fish. > > > > > > > > These fish live 8 years.one year and he is barely a teenager. > > > > > > > > Any missing scales or nipped/torn fins? > > > > > > > > The lab could very well have been the victim of aggression. So if your > test > > results all come back OK and the fish is not gulping at the surface, then > I > > would suspect aggression. It is often not witnessed. > > > > > > > > So put the lab in a cycled hospital tank by himself with very clean water > > (nitrates < 20ppm) and if it was aggression, he may well recover with no > > medications. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 8:02 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] cichlid problem > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Annja, > > > > Sorry to hear your fish is unwell-just my thoughts as I'm not familiar > > with Cichlid specifics but generally I would recommend testing all your > > parameters before making any decisions about putting him to sleep, the > API > > Master Test Kit is a great tool for diagnosis. Although you have no > ammonia > > there could be many things going awry-your pH could have risen or crashed > & > > you wouldn't know or maybe your nitrate is sky-high. I would also suggest > > getting a kit to test your oxygen levels. > > > > Once you have the results of you water test you can make a better > > judgement-if the quality is poor then your maintenance/water change > regime > > or filtration system will likely need revising. If all tests perfect then > > you need to think if you have done anything different with your tank > > recently-perhaps you have added or removed something-perhaps you have > simply > > moved the tank to a different location in your home? Even a change in > diet > > or lighting periods could have a significant effect. > > > > Can you see any unusual marks or damage on him & has he been acting any > > different lately? The fact that you have had these fish for over a year > > would suggest his problem could well lie with something environmental > rather > > than him. > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > On 18 May 2011 00:16, alankya <annja_1966@... > > > <mailto:annja_1966%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all! Over a year ago somebody gave me some cichlids, one yellow > > > electric,three firemouth and one that I don't know the name (he is > light > > > purple with dark purple vertical stripes). They live in a 30 gallon > tank. > > > I found the yellow one at the bottom of the tank upside down but > breathing > > > normally. All the other fish are fine. The only water test I have is > for > > > ammonia; there is none. I am not sure how old the fish is, maybe it is > > just > > > his time? Or what could be wrong? Swimmbladder problem? > > > Maybe he wore himself out chasing the purple one around? > > > I wonder if I should put the poor fellow out of his misery... > > > Thanks for any suggestions! > > > > > > Annja > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51404	From: Rowena Montinola	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: jaguar eggs

hi there, maybe you could help me out.  My cichlids (jaguar) eggs hatched the other day.  Is it safe to get some fry and transfer it to a 25 gallon tank?  I've been waiting for almost a week for this and I thought it wont happen anymore but to my surprise, I was so amazed this morning to see those babies.  I'm afraid that the parents might eat it later on so whats the best thing to do?  there are other jaguar cichlids in the pond so the parents are a little bit aggresive defending the babies. will wait for your advise.  thanks. bing ________________________________ From: alankya <annja_1966@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 8:11 AM Subject: 06 - [AquaticLife] Re: cichlid problem AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com is not on your Guest List | Approve sender | Approve domain | Approve AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51405	From: Rowena Montinola	Date: 5/18/2011
Subject: arapaima

hi there, I think you are the ones who could give me advise/clarifications why my 9" arapaima suddenly lost appetite.  all the other fish are healthy and normal except for the arapaima.  Is it the water change?  I gave some frozen foods (2-3 pcs) before and its okay but now, its not eating for 5 days already.  tried pellets and live foods, but no use.  what wrong with it?  what will I do?  the temperature here is 35 degrees cent.  pls need your advise. bing ________________________________ From: alankya <annja_1966@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 7:41 AM Subject: 06 - [AquaticLife] cichlid problem AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com is not on your Guest List | Approve sender | Approve domain | Approve AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51406	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Problems With Diatoms

I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms overtaking my tank. I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. Is there anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was cycling my tank. After it was cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the rocks. Now I'm noticing a quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me into a frenzy. The only thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would I have to clean the hoses to the filter as well?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51407	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

Let's not get too carried away here. The presence of diatoms simply means that there is silicate available in the water for them to use to build themselves. What information is needed is whether this will be a recurring activity, adding fresh silicate with each water change, or a temporary, high silicate in substrate, situation. I've only removed those that block the view or looked terribly ugly for some reason or another. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gail Dennis Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:01 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Problems With Diatoms I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms overtaking my tank. I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. Is there anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was cycling my tank. After it was cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the rocks. Now I'm noticing a quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me into a frenzy. The only thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would I have to clean the hoses to the filter as well?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51408	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

Diatoms will go away on their own in a couple of months. In the interim they are easily removed. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gail Dennis Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 1:01 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Problems With Diatoms I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms overtaking my tank. I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. Is there anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was cycling my tank. After it was cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the rocks. Now I'm noticing a quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me into a frenzy. The only thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would I have to clean the hoses to the filter as well? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51409	From: joe t	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: 7

WHAT THE H***IS THIS? i THOUGHT THESE MESSAGES WERE MONITORED. joet

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51410	From: haecklers	Date: 5/19/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending on your substrate. They burrow down and hide during the day and come out at night and clean up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether they'd eradicate them before they start to reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> wrote: > > I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms overtaking my tank. > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. Is there > anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was cycling my tank. After it was > cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the rocks. Now I'm noticing a > quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me into a frenzy. The only > thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would I have to clean the hoses > to the filter as well? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51411	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

Be careful what you wish for with Malaysian trumpet snails. I read more posts from people trying to get rid of an overpopulation of them (clogging Pythons and filter intakes) than people who value them. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Problems With Diatoms Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending on your substrate. They burrow down and hide during the day and come out at night and clean up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether they'd eradicate them before they start to reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> wrote: > > I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms overtaking my tank. > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. Is there > anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was cycling my tank. After it was > cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the rocks. Now I'm noticing a > quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me into a frenzy. The only > thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would I have to clean the hoses > to the filter as well? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51412	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Weird Fish of the Week: Plough-nosed chimaera

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3925&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_13_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Plough-nosed_chimaera&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3mfzfk9 Weird fish of the week: Plough-nosed chimaera This week's weird fish candidate certainly fits the bill, especially when the order they belong to is the Chimaeriformes, which basically translates as "monster shaped".... Callorhinchus milii, more commonly known as the Plough-nosed chimaera or Ghost shark, is certainly an odd looking creature, as are all the Chimaera species which are thought to be among the oldest groups of fish living today, with an ancestry going back over 400 million years. The origin of Callorinchus millii's common name is as plain as the nose on its face - the tip of its rostrum is extended into an odd, twisted club-like structure. Ironically given the etymology of its order's name the family's name "Callorhinchus" comes from the Greek for "beautiful snout". This peculiar proboscis is covered with sensory pores with which the fish can detect the weak electrical fields and movement of potential prey buried in the seabed as it roots around for a meal which typically consists of shellfish and small crustaceans which are crushed up by the fish's tooth plates. They are a cartilaginous fish, related to sharks and to some extent share a similar body shape but with some clear differences. They have enlarged pectoral fins which they flap in a wing-like manner for swimming similar to rays in preference to using their tails. The first of their two dorsal fins is home to a large venomous spine that can be used defensively. The chimaera's body is smooth and scale-less with a beautiful silvery white metallic background colouration, punctuated by dark blotches. Its large, green eyes point to its natural habitat which is typically at depths of over 200m off the temperate coasts of Australia and New Zealand in the South-west Pacific. They do however come into shallow water to breed with females laying large, flattened, leathery eggs onto the sea bed. These eggs harden and darken in colour as the embryo matures. The young eventually hatch out after about eight months of living on their yolk sack at around 15cm/6" long. Adult Plough-nosed chimaeras can live to 15 years and grow to around 125cm/4'. Despite being a popular food fish in fish and chip restaurants in Australia and New Zealand, their population remains stable and the species is not considered to be at risk. Callorhinchus milii has recently been the subject of considerable scientific research with its genome being mapped. It has the smallest genome among known cartilaginous fish at about one third the size of the human genome. It is hoped this work will help further understanding of the evolution of vertebrates, as both humans and the chimaera share a common ancestor from 450 million years ago. Published: Bob Mehen Thursday 12 May 2011, 4:23 pm \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51413	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms

I sell a lot of Flubendazole to those who are fed up with grinding impellers and clogged filters full of tiny Malaysian trumpet snails. Once they get started it's the only thing I know that will kill them off. Puffers just can't keep up with a heavy population once established and even Chlorine doesn't get into their trap door. Charles H >Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending >on your substrate. They burrow down and hide >during the day and come out at night and clean >up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of >depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether >they'd eradicate them before they start to >reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. >They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't >have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> wrote: >> >> I have a 125 gallon tank with African >>cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms >>overtaking my tank. > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the >intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. >Is there -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51414	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: This Week's Weird Fish of the Week: Grunt sculpin

His should get us caught up on the Weird Fish Series from PFK. http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=3945&utm_source=PFK_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=May_20_2011&utm_term=Weird_fish_of_the_week:_Grunt_sculpin&utm_content=html http://tinyurl.com/3ucaxfx Weird fish of the week: Grunt sculpin This week's weird fish is the Grunt sculpin, Rhamphocottus richardsonii - a rather beautiful, almost dog-like, little marine fish that uses its fins to hop or walk along the seabed. Bob Mehen has the details - and check out the video! The more I look at weird fish, the less weird they look to me. I'm getting used to huge teeth, distended jaws, bulbous eyes, capacious stomachs and the many other bizarre features seen to such an extent that it now seems to me that a cod is a bigger ocean oddity than a Goblin shark. However there are still many strange looking species waiting to surprise us with their perplexing piscine peculiarity, and Rhamphocottus richardsonii, commonly known as the Grunt sculpin, is one of them. Monotypic families are often a rich hunting ground when it comes to strange and unusual fish species, so it's no surprise that the Grunt sculpin is the only member of the Rhamphocottidae - clearly taxonomists agree it's a bit different to other Scorpaeniformes. Growing to little more than 10cm/4" they are odd, hunch-backed little fish, with over half their length made up by their armoured heads. Their entire body is covered in multi-spined plates, the tips of which protrude through the skin, making this otherwise tempting morsel of a fish a prickly mouthful for potential predators. Their common name comes from the grunting noise they emit when frightened or removed from the water which is itself another useful deterrent. They are very poor swimmers, preferring to hop or walk along the sea bed with the aid of specially adapted thickened pectoral fin rays, but this lack of Michael Phelps like aquatic propulsion is explained when you see the sculpin at home. They spend much of their time within the empty shells of the Giant acorn barnacle, Balanus nubilus. Inside these armoured retreats their odd shape makes far more sense, with their bony head filling the opening and making the dead barnacle look like all the other closed barnacles in the colony - and if the fish dives into its shelter head first, its tail is adapted to look like the feeding fans of a living barnacle. These empty shells provide an excellent place for the fish to lay and guard its eggs. Observations of the breeding behaviour of captive specimens report the pugnacious females chasing and holing up prospective partners when ready to breed. The female then guards the fertilised eggs until they hatch. -------------<continued and video at link>----------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51415	From: haecklers	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms

What about assassin snails? Wouldn't they kill them off, or keep them down to manageable levels? Not many snails survive my cichlids, tho. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > I sell a lot of Flubendazole to those who are fed > up with grinding impellers and clogged filters > full of tiny Malaysian trumpet snails. Once they > get started it's the only thing I know that will > kill them off. Puffers just can't keep up with a > heavy population once established and even > Chlorine doesn't get into their trap door. > > Charles H > > >Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending > >on your substrate. They burrow down and hide > >during the day and come out at night and clean > >up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of > >depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether > >they'd eradicate them before they start to > >reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. > >They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > >have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > >> > >> I have a 125 gallon tank with African > >>cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms > >>overtaking my tank. > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the > >intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. > >Is there > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51416	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 5/20/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms

I have 6 assassin snails in a tank with these malaysian pests and they cannot compete or keep up with them. I think I may try the flubendenzol(sp) after I locate all the shrimp and assassins in the tank. I have been try to exorcize these guys from my girlfriends tank for a year now with no luck. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: haecklers@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, May 20, 2011 6:35 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms What about assassin snails? Wouldn't they kill them off, or keep them down to manageable levels? Not many snails survive my cichlids, tho. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > I sell a lot of Flubendazole to those who are fed > up with grinding impellers and clogged filters > full of tiny Malaysian trumpet snails. Once they > get started it's the only thing I know that will > kill them off. Puffers just can't keep up with a > heavy population once established and even > Chlorine doesn't get into their trap door. > > Charles H > > >Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending > >on your substrate. They burrow down and hide > >during the day and come out at night and clean > >up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of > >depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether > >they'd eradicate them before they start to > >reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. > >They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > >have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > >> > >> I have a 125 gallon tank with African > >>cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms > >>overtaking my tank. > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the > >intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. > >Is there > -- > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > Change as much water as often as you can! > Charles Harrison in St Louis > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_7f6faa43-d182-471e-8d2c-1f6dc33e9ae1 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51417	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

Most snails will eat diatom. Mystery snails would be easier than trumpet snails because you don't have the population control to worry about. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Be careful what you wish for with Malaysian trumpet snails. I read more > posts from people trying to get rid of an overpopulation of them (clogging > Pythons and filter intakes) than people who value them. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:22 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Problems With Diatoms > > > > > > Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending on your substrate. They > burrow down and hide during the day and come out at night and clean up the > tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of depends on how much your fish dig, > tho, whether they'd eradicate them before they start to reproduce enough to > make a cleaning presence. They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > > > > I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with > diatoms overtaking my tank. > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are > loaded with them. Is there > > anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was > cycling my tank. After it was > > cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the > rocks. Now I'm noticing a > > quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me > into a frenzy. The only > > thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would > I have to clean the hoses > > to the filter as well? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51418	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms

I went the route of assassin snails to get my trumpet snail population under control. 6 assassins in a 29 gallon tank and there was no way they could keep up with the trumpet population. It would take a lot of assassins to handle just a small amount of trumpets. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What about assassin snails? Wouldn't they kill them off, or keep them down to manageable levels? Not many snails survive my cichlids, tho. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > I sell a lot of Flubendazole to those who are fed > > up with grinding impellers and clogged filters > > full of tiny Malaysian trumpet snails. Once they > > get started it's the only thing I know that will > > kill them off. Puffers just can't keep up with a > > heavy population once established and even > > Chlorine doesn't get into their trap door. > > > > Charles H > > > > >Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending > > >on your substrate. They burrow down and hide > > >during the day and come out at night and clean > > >up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of > > >depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether > > >they'd eradicate them before they start to > > >reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. > > >They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > > >have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > > >> > > >> I have a 125 gallon tank with African > > >>cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms > > >>overtaking my tank. > > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the > > >intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. > > >Is there > > -- > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > Charles Harrison in St Louis > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51419	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Problems With Diatoms

African cichlids do eat snails and mystery snails would probably not last long with them. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 3:07 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Problems With Diatoms Most snails will eat diatom. Mystery snails would be easier than trumpet snails because you don't have the population control to worry about. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Be careful what you wish for with Malaysian trumpet snails. I read more > posts from people trying to get rid of an overpopulation of them (clogging > Pythons and filter intakes) than people who value them. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf Of haecklers > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 9:22 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Problems With Diatoms > > > > > > Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending on your substrate. They > burrow down and hide during the day and come out at night and clean up the > tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of depends on how much your fish dig, > tho, whether they'd eradicate them before they start to reproduce enough to > make a cleaning presence. They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > > > > I have a 125 gallon tank with African cichlids. I'm having a problem with > diatoms overtaking my tank. > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the intake and out take hoses are > loaded with them. Is there > > anyway I can get rid of them once and for all. They started when I was > cycling my tank. After it was > > cycled I did a water change and cleaned the affected surfaces on the > rocks. Now I'm noticing a > > quick return. The thought of having to clean those rocks again sends me > into a frenzy. The only > > thing I haven't done yet is change the filters. Would that help and would > I have to clean the hoses > > to the filter as well? > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51420	From: Karlene	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Yet Another Question

Sadly, I don't have my 75 gallon tank set up yet . . . my son graduates HS next Friday and I am swamped with so many things to do that the set up has been put on hold. But, of course, I have questions about my other tank. Last night I tested the water and was horrified to see the ammonia around 6, my nitrites at 4 and my nitrates at 40. I changed out about 10% of the water and added Microbe-Lift Special Blend to the water. I tested again tonight, 24 hours later. My ammonia level was down to .5, nitrites at 3 and nitrates at 20. I did another, larger water change in the 15%-20% range and again added the Microbe-Lift. So, the question is, is there anything else I should be doing, or am I on the right track? Also, is there a better way to change out the water than scooping out a gazillion coffee cups full? I have no intention of sticking a tube in the tank and sucking on the other end of it! Thanks, ~Karlene, who really is learning, I think. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51421	From: Bill	Date: 5/21/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question

1. Get some plants going in your tank! 2. To siphon?.. get your length of hose, submerge all of it within the tank or in your sink. If you use the sink, ensure you cap BOTH ends with your thumbs and move on over to the tank. (Be sure and have your bucket ready on the floor at the tank).. Submerge ONE end of the siphon hose in the tank, holding it below the surface of the water while bending down and placing the other end of the hose in the bucket.. release the caps (thumbs) from the hose and your siphon should be running... OR 3. There is a fitting that goes on your kitchen faucet. The fitting has TWO settings, Drain and Fill. Attach your siphon hose to the fitting after you've attached the fitting to the faucet. If your filling, set it to fill, If your siphoning, well.. ya get the drift. Turn on the faucet once you have the other end of the hose in the tank!... 4? Why are your chems so off? Multiple cause.. Ammonia?.. Fish waste. nitrites? Too many fish? Nitrates? Over feeding, overstocking and not enough water changes. 5. When you do your water changes are you cleaning the substrate vigorously? You should see evidence of fish poop coming thru your siphon hose. What fish and number and size of the tank are we talking about? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 11:41:06 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Yet Another Question Sadly, I don't have my 75 gallon tank set up yet . . . my son graduates HS next Friday and I am swamped with so many things to do that the set up has been put on hold. But, of course, I have questions about my other tank. Last night I tested the water and was horrified to see the ammonia around 6, my nitrites at 4 and my nitrates at 40. I changed out about 10% of the water and added Microbe-Lift Special Blend to the water. I tested again tonight, 24 hours later. My ammonia level was down to .5, nitrites at 3 and nitrates at 20. I did another, larger water change in the 15%-20% range and again added the Microbe-Lift. So, the question is, is there anything else I should be doing, or am I on the right track? Also, is there a better way to change out the water than scooping out a gazillion coffee cups full? I have no intention of sticking a tube in the tank and sucking on the other end of it! Thanks, ~Karlene, who really is learning, I think. -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51422	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question

Hi Karlene, I agree with Bill-real plants will help to eat your nitrates. You really need to be doing larger & more frequent water changes to make any impact on the very high toxicity of your water. I think the 10 & even 20% water changes are merely scraping the surface of your problem because unless you are doing them every few hours the cumulative effect of your high toxins will negate all your hard work. What fish do you have? This action may not be appropriate for your type of fish but speaking from a purely personal viewpoint if this were Goldfish/Carps you could happily do 2 x 75% water changes on consecutive days without hurting your eco system & this would substantially improve your water quality but you may not be able to do this much change with other fish. On the subject of siphoning, I think Bill is talking about a device called a Python but if this is not an option then a simple gravel vac is really easy to get going without getting a mouthful of water & certainly less work than bailing out with a coffee cup-a vac also gives you the advantage of cleaning the gravel while water changing. Just a gentle suck & it will start flowing slowly. The simple device is designed so that the wider nozzle end fills up slower than the hose which gives you time to transfer it to a bucket before you drink it! I think that debris in your gravel is largely responsible for your high toxicity levels. On another purely personal level I would not recommend adding anything to established tanks except conditioner for the new water. John*<o)))< * On 22 May 2011 06:15, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > 1. Get some plants going in your tank! > 2. To siphon?.. get your length of hose, submerge all of it within the tank > or > in your sink. If you use the sink, ensure you cap BOTH ends with your > thumbs > and move on over to the tank. (Be sure and have your bucket ready on the > floor > at the tank).. Submerge ONE end of the siphon hose in the tank, holding it > below > the surface of the water while bending down and placing the other end of > the > hose in the bucket.. release the caps (thumbs) from the hose and your > siphon > should be running... OR > 3. There is a fitting that goes on your kitchen faucet. The fitting has TWO > > settings, Drain and Fill. Attach your siphon hose to the fitting after > you've > attached the fitting to the faucet. If your filling, set it to fill, If > your > siphoning, well.. ya get the drift. Turn on the faucet once you have the > other > end of the hose in the tank!... > > 4? Why are your chems so off? > Multiple cause.. Ammonia?.. Fish waste. > nitrites? Too many fish? > Nitrates? Over feeding, overstocking and not enough water changes. > > 5. When you do your water changes are you cleaning the substrate > vigorously? > You should see evidence of fish poop coming thru your siphon hose. > > What fish and number and size of the tank are we talking about? Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Karlene <tarkom@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, May 21, 2011 11:41:06 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Yet Another Question > > > Sadly, I don't have my 75 gallon tank set up yet . . . my son graduates HS > next Friday and I am swamped with so many things to do that the set up has > been put on hold. But, of course, I have questions about my other tank. > Last night I tested the water and was horrified to see the ammonia around > 6, > my nitrites at 4 and my nitrates at 40. I changed out about 10% of the > water and added Microbe-Lift Special Blend to the water. I tested again > tonight, 24 hours later. My ammonia level was down to .5, nitrites at 3 and > nitrates at 20. I did another, larger water change in the 15%-20% range and > again added the Microbe-Lift. > > So, the question is, is there anything else I should be doing, or am I on > the right track? Also, is there a better way to change out the water than > scooping out a gazillion coffee cups full? I have no intention of sticking > a tube in the tank and sucking on the other end of it! > > Thanks, > ~Karlene, who really is learning, I think. > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51423	From: O	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: perawatan ikan hias air tawar dan laut

IKAN HIAS Yth. Juragan-juragan Kas-Kus, Saya mau membantu langganan saya, opik Aquarium (Kios Ikan Hias Radio Dalam, Blok A/No.1) Bagi rekan-rekan yang membutuhkan: - Jasa perawatan/perbaikan akuarium/kolam di daerah Jakarata Selatan, atauJABODETABEK - Jual/beli ikan hias, atau - Membutuhkan perlengkapan akuarium/kolam/makanan ikan, dll. Silahkan menghubungi OPIK AQUARIUM 088210305418 Harga gak nembak, orangnya jujur, bertanggung jawab dan sangat mengerti ikan serta sistem filtrasi.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51424	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Yet Another Question

There are syphons made for the job :-) They tend to be described as gravel cleaners, which is a bit confusing for the novice like me, but they work very well. You can even get battery powered ones but I've stuck to the self-starting version. I'm not suggesting you buy this particular one, but here's a link which illustrates what I mean: http://www.aquariumguys.com/gravelcleaner.html Good luck! Tricia A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. On 22 May, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: [snip] > Also, is there a better way to change out the water than scooping > out a gazillion coffee cups full? I have no intention of sticking > a tube in the tank and sucking on the other end of it!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51425	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Long Introduction

Hi, my name is Ashleigh and my fiance is William. William is the man with the fish tank, but I cover the computer and technology part of the duo, hence why I am typing this not him. Now please excuse me if I get this wrong because William's short track mind has resulted in him walking out the door to go and buy Fry Food, leaving me to type this message. The tank contains tropical fish and goldfish. We have about 7 guppies, 2 pleco's (we think a male and female), 5 cori-dora's, 6 red-eye tetra's, 1 neon tetra, 1 rainbow shark, 2 lyretail black mollies and 1 goldfish. The goldfish and the pleco's are the largest fish in the tank at roughly 4 inches each. The rainbow shark is the same size as our guppies who are around 1.5inches. The tank itself is large... about 3.5ft by 1ft by 1.5ft (rough estimate). We have clean seasand on one half of the tank with a few real plants and a shipwreck model. On the other half of the tank we have river rocks, some bogwood, real and plastic plants, the heater, filter and other equipment. Besides for the neon tetra's becoming a snack for the goldfish, we haven't had any problems in the tank. We learnt our lesson with the neon's and no longer buy anything that small. Last night, one of our female guppies had about 17 fry (whenever we count the number lands up between 17 and 23, they move too fast to count them) and they are currently in a second tank (1.5ft by 1ft by 1ft). This tank just contains the bare essentials (filter, heater, seasand and a few real plants). We have at least 2 more heavily pregnant guppies, so we are expecting a lot more fry over the next week. The only guidance we have had has been a very thick book about tropical fish and tank set-up (remember William is old-school and not too fond of internet), and phonecalls to his brother who has been breeding platies for about a year now, and guppies for a month. The reason William asked me to join a forum is that we have a very difficult time getting advice and supplies for his hobby over here. We live in South Africa, and on top of that in an area where the only fish shops are the ones that sell live bait for fishing trips (lol). There are about 3 or 4 pet shops, but besides for a few fish tanks right at the back of the shop they do not have much. More than anything we need somewhere to go to and ask if we encounter problems. While William's brother is almost an expert on guppies and platies, he isn't very helpful with the other fish in our tank. Thanks a million for letting me/us join. Ashleigh and William (who is still driving around town looking for Fry Food).

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51426	From: William M	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Malaysian trumpet snails | was Problems With Diatoms

If you are having a problem with too many trumpet snails (or any kind of snail) then you are overfeeding and need to cut down on the amount of food that goes into the tank. I have Assassin snails in a ten gallon tank and am trying to breed enough snails in other tanks to keep up with the feeding needs of the assassin snails that I have. I have cherry shrimp in with the assassin snails and they coexist together very well. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I went the route of assassin snails to get my trumpet snail population under control. 6 assassins in a 29 gallon tank and there was no way they could keep up with the trumpet population. It would take a lot of assassins to handle just a small amount of trumpets. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > What about assassin snails? Wouldn't they kill them off, or keep them down to manageable levels? Not many snails survive my cichlids, tho. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > > I sell a lot of Flubendazole to those who are fed > > > up with grinding impellers and clogged filters > > > full of tiny Malaysian trumpet snails. Once they > > > get started it's the only thing I know that will > > > kill them off. Puffers just can't keep up with a > > > heavy population once established and even > > > Chlorine doesn't get into their trap door. > > > > > > Charles H > > > > > > >Malaysian trumpet snails might work, depending > > > >on your substrate. They burrow down and hide > > > >during the day and come out at night and clean > > > >up the tank and they devour diatoms. It kind of > > > >depends on how much your fish dig, tho, whether > > > >they'd eradicate them before they start to > > > >reproduce enough to make a cleaning presence. > > > >They also keep the substrate clean, so you don't > > > >have to vacuum the gravel as much, which is nice. > > > > > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> I have a 125 gallon tank with African > > > >>cichlids. I'm having a problem with diatoms > > > >>overtaking my tank. > > > > I'm using a Rena 4G canister filter and the > > > >intake and out take hoses are loaded with them. > > > >Is there > > > -- > > > }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ > > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > > Charles Harrison in St Louis > > > http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ > > > }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51427	From: TrishS	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Need Some Help Please

Hello Everyone! I have just lost my fish due to disease and want to completely restart my 55 gallon tank. My question is what should i use to thoroughly clean the tank out and and filters so the fungus won't return and or infect my other tanks. I had to drain the water out with my python setup and when finished i rinsed it out well and ran some white vinegar through it.(hoping to kill the germs) I also threw out most of the gravel and decorations. Obviously I don't want to buy a whole new setup but mainly want to really clean it well without using anything that will affect future tank water. Should I continue to use vinegar or is there another suggestion? Salt? Bleach? I really could use some advice....Thanks, Trish

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51428	From: haecklers	Date: 5/23/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

If you are feeding your adult fish flake food you can just crumble it for the fry. If you are feeding them pellets you can crush some between some spoons or in a coffee grinder if you have one. Baby guppies also like to eat algae from walls and plants, so don't keep the tank too clean! They like to be fed twice a day. Also be aware they can be sucked into filters. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ashleigh Langhein" <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > Hi, my name is Ashleigh and my fiance is William. William is the man with the fish tank, but I cover the computer and technology part of the duo, hence why I am typing this not him. > > Now please excuse me if I get this wrong because William's short track mind has resulted in him walking out the door to go and buy Fry Food, leaving me to type this message. > > The tank contains tropical fish and goldfish. We have about 7 guppies, 2 pleco's (we think a male and female), 5 cori-dora's, 6 red-eye tetra's, 1 neon tetra, 1 rainbow shark, 2 lyretail black mollies and 1 goldfish. > > The goldfish and the pleco's are the largest fish in the tank at roughly 4 inches each. The rainbow shark is the same size as our guppies who are around 1.5inches. > > The tank itself is large... about 3.5ft by 1ft by 1.5ft (rough estimate). We have clean seasand on one half of the tank with a few real plants and a shipwreck model. On the other half of the tank we have river rocks, some bogwood, real and plastic plants, the heater, filter and other equipment. > > Besides for the neon tetra's becoming a snack for the goldfish, we haven't had any problems in the tank. We learnt our lesson with the neon's and no longer buy anything that small. > > Last night, one of our female guppies had about 17 fry (whenever we count the number lands up between 17 and 23, they move too fast to count them) and they are currently in a second tank (1.5ft by 1ft by 1ft). This tank just contains the bare essentials (filter, heater, seasand and a few real plants). We have at least 2 more heavily pregnant guppies, so we are expecting a lot more fry over the next week. > > The only guidance we have had has been a very thick book about tropical fish and tank set-up (remember William is old-school and not too fond of internet), and phonecalls to his brother who has been breeding platies for about a year now, and guppies for a month. > > The reason William asked me to join a forum is that we have a very difficult time getting advice and supplies for his hobby over here. > > We live in South Africa, and on top of that in an area where the only fish shops are the ones that sell live bait for fishing trips (lol). There are about 3 or 4 pet shops, but besides for a few fish tanks right at the back of the shop they do not have much. > > More than anything we need somewhere to go to and ask if we encounter problems. While William's brother is almost an expert on guppies and platies, he isn't very helpful with the other fish in our tank. > > Thanks a million for letting me/us join. > > Ashleigh and William (who is still driving around town looking for Fry Food). >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51429	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

Hi Ashleigh & William, Welcome to the group! You have a goods sized tank-according to an online calculator it works out at roughly 32 UK gallons. My first reaction would be to separate the Goldfish, they do not do well in heated tanks or mixing with tropical fish as you have found out by him eating your Neons which is upsetting for you & not too good for him either. Goldfish really are only compatible with other Goldfish of the same type so you need to get him a separate large tank & he will need a buddy or 2 because they love the company of each another & Goldfish in groups always do better then singles. Bear in mind they can grow enormous, live for many years & kick out a lot of waste so you will need to factor this in when buying a Goldfish tank & filtration. This link will tell you all about setting up & maintaining a tank for them: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html I am not an expert in tropical fish so cannot help you with any specifics on your community or stocking levels but it sounds like you have done an excellent job in setting up & there are some great folks on here that can help you-can you tell us what type of filter you have? Personally my general advice would be to loose the shipwreck model. This is because many of these decorations are not made to any safety standards & can have toxic paint &/or materials which could affect the chemistry of the water. In addition they often have sharp or protruding edges or holes which can potentially harm or trap fish. John*<o)))<* On 23 May 2011 22:58, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > If you are feeding your adult fish flake food you can just crumble it for > the fry. If you are feeding them pellets you can crush some between some > spoons or in a coffee grinder if you have one. Baby guppies also like to eat > algae from walls and plants, so don't keep the tank too clean! > > They like to be fed twice a day. > > Also be aware they can be sucked into filters. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ashleigh Langhein" <ashleighlanghein@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi, my name is Ashleigh and my fiance is William. William is the man with > the fish tank, but I cover the computer and technology part of the duo, > hence why I am typing this not him. > > > > Now please excuse me if I get this wrong because William's short track > mind has resulted in him walking out the door to go and buy Fry Food, > leaving me to type this message. > > > > The tank contains tropical fish and goldfish. We have about 7 guppies, 2 > pleco's (we think a male and female), 5 cori-dora's, 6 red-eye tetra's, 1 > neon tetra, 1 rainbow shark, 2 lyretail black mollies and 1 goldfish. > > > > The goldfish and the pleco's are the largest fish in the tank at roughly > 4 inches each. The rainbow shark is the same size as our guppies who are > around 1.5inches. > > > > The tank itself is large... about 3.5ft by 1ft by 1.5ft (rough estimate). > We have clean seasand on one half of the tank with a few real plants and a > shipwreck model. On the other half of the tank we have river rocks, some > bogwood, real and plastic plants, the heater, filter and other equipment. > > > > Besides for the neon tetra's becoming a snack for the goldfish, we > haven't had any problems in the tank. We learnt our lesson with the neon's > and no longer buy anything that small. > > > > Last night, one of our female guppies had about 17 fry (whenever we count > the number lands up between 17 and 23, they move too fast to count them) and > they are currently in a second tank (1.5ft by 1ft by 1ft). This tank just > contains the bare essentials (filter, heater, seasand and a few real > plants). We have at least 2 more heavily pregnant guppies, so we are > expecting a lot more fry over the next week. > > > > The only guidance we have had has been a very thick book about tropical > fish and tank set-up (remember William is old-school and not too fond of > internet), and phonecalls to his brother who has been breeding platies for > about a year now, and guppies for a month. > > > > The reason William asked me to join a forum is that we have a very > difficult time getting advice and supplies for his hobby over here. > > > > We live in South Africa, and on top of that in an area where the only > fish shops are the ones that sell live bait for fishing trips (lol). There > are about 3 or 4 pet shops, but besides for a few fish tanks right at the > back of the shop they do not have much. > > > > More than anything we need somewhere to go to and ask if we encounter > problems. While William's brother is almost an expert on guppies and > platies, he isn't very helpful with the other fish in our tank. > > > > Thanks a million for letting me/us join. > > > > Ashleigh and William (who is still driving around town looking for Fry > Food). > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51430	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Need Some Help Please

Hi Trish, Sorry to hear you lost your fish. I think the white vinegar will do just fine-I have always used that to clean & sterilize everything. Probably the best route would be to rinse & [lightly] scrub everything in a lukewarm white vinegar solution followed by a lukewarm salt solution. Then rinse everything thoroughly with running tap water followed by a final rinse in water that has some conditioner diluted in it such as Aqua Safe or Stress Coat. Personally I would never use bleach on anything that would come in contact with my fish or their system. Make sure to only scrub the silicone seals gently if you are using anything abrasive as they are quite delicate & can easily shred or fragment. Nylon pot scrubbers or a piece of white polyester foam [floss] are excellent materials for the job. I would not recommend scouring pads because they could have unknown chemicals in the abrasive pads. John*<o)))< * On 23 May 2011 02:52, TrishS <trish701922@...> wrote: > > > Hello Everyone! I have just lost my fish due to disease and want to > completely restart my 55 gallon tank. My question is what should i use to > thoroughly clean the tank out and and filters so the fungus won't return and > or infect my other tanks. I had to drain the water out with my python setup > and when finished i rinsed it out well and ran some white vinegar through > it.(hoping to kill the germs) I also threw out most of the gravel and > decorations. Obviously I don't want to buy a whole new setup but mainly want > to really clean it well without using anything that will affect future tank > water. Should I continue to use vinegar or is there another suggestion? > Salt? Bleach? I really could use some advice....Thanks, Trish > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51431	From: Trish Souza	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Re: Need Some Help Please

Thanks for your advice. Have a good day! --- On Tue, 5/24/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Need Some Help Please To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, May 24, 2011, 10:30 AM   Hi Trish, Sorry to hear you lost your fish. I think the white vinegar will do just fine-I have always used that to clean & sterilize everything. Probably the best route would be to rinse & [lightly] scrub everything in a lukewarm white vinegar solution followed by a lukewarm salt solution. Then rinse everything thoroughly with running tap water followed by a final rinse in water that has some conditioner diluted in it such as Aqua Safe or Stress Coat. Personally I would never use bleach on anything that would come in contact with my fish or their system. Make sure to only scrub the silicone seals gently if you are using anything abrasive as they are quite delicate & can easily shred or fragment. Nylon pot scrubbers or a piece of white polyester foam [floss] are excellent materials for the job. I would not recommend scouring pads because they could have unknown chemicals in the abrasive pads. John*<o)))< * On 23 May 2011 02:52, TrishS <trish701922@...> wrote: > > > Hello Everyone! I have just lost my fish due to disease and want to > completely restart my 55 gallon tank. My question is what should i use to > thoroughly clean the tank out and and filters so the fungus won't return and > or infect my other tanks. I had to drain the water out with my python setup > and when finished i rinsed it out well and ran some white vinegar through > it.(hoping to kill the germs) I also threw out most of the gravel and > decorations. Obviously I don't want to buy a whole new setup but mainly want > to really clean it well without using anything that will affect future tank > water. Should I continue to use vinegar or is there another suggestion? > Salt? Bleach? I really could use some advice....Thanks, Trish > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51432	From: Lisa	Date: 5/24/2011
Subject: Unexplained death

Lost a blackmoor yesterday. Don't know cause. But if appearances are anything to go by. Then it was attacked by one of the other goldfish. Because it's caudal and pectoral fins, and all the scales on it's right side were all missing and there was a red scratch about an inch in length. I have another medium sized blackmoor, an orange butterfly tail bubble eye, what we call a nymph. (it resembles a comet, but dwarfed, and has tiny protrusions from its nose) and a baby red cap oranda. My tank is on a time limit now. Once all my fish die. I'm not maintaining the aquarium anymore, and I'm going to convert the tank into a terrarium. And hopefully have a children's python. That's not to say, I won't continue to maintain it while they stay alive. But aren't goldfish generally peaceful? So what could make them gang up and pick on an individual? Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51433	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death

Hi Lisa, That's bad news about your Moor but I don't think it has been caused by one of the other fish as you say Goldfish are generally peaceful & will co-habit happily with one another. The fin loss & other damage will likely have been caused after death as the others will have been picking at him but I don't think they will have killed him. Sometimes baby fish will do a spot of fin nipping on the adults but nothing that would cause anything like this. Can you say how old the fish was? How long has the tank been set up, how big is it & what filtration do you have? Do you have anything in your tank that has sharp or protruding edges? have you changed, altered or added anything in the last few weeks-even such things as feeding/maintenance schedules or decor/plants? My guess is that he died from either natural causes or an internal bacterial infection that you had not noticed. Whereabouts on him was the red scratch? Check all your parameters for anything unusual & if you find anything then alter your water change & maintenance schedule accordingly. John*<o)))< * On 25 May 2011 03:23, Lisa <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > > Lost a blackmoor yesterday. Don't know cause. But if appearances are > anything to go by. Then it was attacked by one of the other goldfish. > Because it's caudal and pectoral fins, and all the scales on it's right > side were all missing and there was a red scratch about an inch in length. > > I have another medium sized blackmoor, an orange butterfly tail bubble eye, > what we call a nymph. (it resembles a comet, but dwarfed, and has tiny > protrusions from its nose) and a baby red cap oranda. > > My tank is on a time limit now. Once all my fish die. I'm not maintaining > the aquarium anymore, and I'm going to convert the tank into a terrarium. > And hopefully have a children's python. > > That's not to say, I won't continue to maintain it while they stay alive. > > But aren't goldfish generally peaceful? So what could make them gang up and > pick on an individual? > > Lisa > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51434	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

Thank you for the advice, another of our pregnant guppies gave birth since the last time I posted. We watched her the whole time and counted 41 fry. We had put her in a home-made breeding trap... it was actually a small show tank for Siamese fighters that William converted in such a way that it now serves as a breeding trap. It seemed to work well. We couldn't find a real breeding trap in any of the shops so we had to make do in an emergency. The first few feedings we used regular flake food, but we ground it up with a mortar and pestle. On Monday the one shop got a new supply of Fry food so we bought that then and have been feeding them with it since. Thanks a million for your reply and advice! Ashleigh & William (who is currently draining some water off the large tank to replace with clean water). --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > If you are feeding your adult fish flake food you can just crumble it for the fry. If you are feeding them pellets you can crush some between some spoons or in a coffee grinder if you have one. Baby guppies also like to eat algae from walls and plants, so don't keep the tank too clean! > > They like to be fed twice a day. > > Also be aware they can be sucked into filters. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51435	From: haecklers	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

You're probably better off with your makeshift breeding trap, the others have been called death traps pretty often. Baby guppies are really cute! Congratulations on your bigger fish family! (Did you know guppies do quite well outdoors in a large plastic tub through the summer?) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ashleigh Langhein" <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > Thank you for the advice, another of our pregnant guppies gave birth since the last time I posted. We watched her the whole time and counted 41 fry. > > We had put her in a home-made breeding trap... it was actually a small show tank for Siamese fighters that William converted in such a way that it now serves as a breeding trap. It seemed to work well. We couldn't find a real breeding trap in any of the shops so we had to make do in an emergency. > > The first few feedings we used regular flake food, but we ground it up with a mortar and pestle. On Monday the one shop got a new supply of Fry food so we bought that then and have been feeding them with it since. > > Thanks a million for your reply and advice! > > Ashleigh & William (who is currently draining some water off the large tank to replace with clean water). > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > If you are feeding your adult fish flake food you can just crumble it for the fry. If you are feeding them pellets you can crush some between some spoons or in a coffee grinder if you have one. Baby guppies also like to eat algae from walls and plants, so don't keep the tank too clean! > > > > They like to be fed twice a day. > > > > Also be aware they can be sucked into filters. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51436	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

Hello! Thanks John for the advice. What happened was that I bought the goldfish about a year and a half ago (along with another one). The second goldfish got a case of swim-bladder a few months later and I was left with 1 goldfish. About 4 months ago William took over my tank (the smaller one of our two) and bought tropical fish for it, my condition was that he was not allowed to evict my goldfish. When William upgraded to the larger tank he decided to move the goldfish with it. He has basically taken over the tanks altogether. I actually want to get an outdoor pond for the goldfish at some point (and buy a few more) - we don't get snow in our part of South Africa and lots of people have outdoor fish ponds in their yards, so it might be a good bet, but I am waiting until spring (which is around September). The small tank has a corner filter like this one (different brand though): http://petcarelive.com/img/Aquarium/penn-plax-quick-draw-box-filters.jpg And the larger tank has both a corner filter and a filter like this one: http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/auinnogood/1_030.jpg As for the model, I completely understand your concerns. I'll mention what you have said to William since he is outdoors emptying the tank water he drained off onto my plants right now. At this stage though, our Pleco's love the shipwreck and sit in there most of the day (coming out only in the evenings and early mornings) so I think they'll be upset to see it go (smile). Ashleigh and William (who is emptying a bucket of water onto my tulip bulbs right now). --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Ashleigh & William, > > Welcome to the group! You have a goods sized tank-according to an online > calculator it works out at roughly 32 UK gallons. My first reaction would be > to separate the Goldfish, they do not do well in heated tanks or mixing with > tropical fish as you have found out by him eating your Neons which is > upsetting for you & not too good for him either. Goldfish really are only > compatible with other Goldfish of the same type so you need to get him a > separate large tank & he will need a buddy or 2 because they love the > company of each another & Goldfish in groups always do better then singles. > Bear in mind they can grow enormous, live for many years & kick out a lot of > waste so you will need to factor this in when buying a Goldfish tank & > filtration. This link will tell you all about setting up & maintaining a > tank for them: > http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html > > I am not an expert in tropical fish so cannot help you with any specifics on > your community or stocking levels but it sounds like you have done an > excellent job in setting up & there are some great folks on here that can > help you-can you tell us what type of filter you have? > > Personally my general advice would be to loose the shipwreck model. This is > because many of these decorations are not made to any safety standards & can > have toxic paint &/or materials which could affect the chemistry of the > water. In addition they often have sharp or protruding edges or holes which > can potentially harm or trap fish. > > John*<o)))<* >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51437	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death

Lisa, sorry to hear about your loss. I am curious about the fish you refer to as "nymph". Can you post a photo for us to see? If this fish is indeed resembling a comet, it may also have the same nature of a comet. Comets and fancy goldfish don't mix, comets can be quite aggressive. A 2 - 3 inch comet can quickly traumatize and kill a fancy goldfish 5 times its size in a short time. Can you tell us what size tank these fish are in? How large each fish is? That information would help to figure out what happened so you can avoid the same thing from happening again. A pic of the whole tank would also help so we can see how it is decorated. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > Lost a blackmoor yesterday. Don't know cause. But if appearances are anything to go by. Then it was attacked by one of the other goldfish. > Because it's caudal and pectoral fins, and all the scales on it's right side were all missing and there was a red scratch about an inch in length. > > I have another medium sized blackmoor, an orange butterfly tail bubble eye, what we call a nymph. (it resembles a comet, but dwarfed, and has tiny protrusions from its nose) and a baby red cap oranda. > > My tank is on a time limit now. Once all my fish die. I'm not maintaining the aquarium anymore, and I'm going to convert the tank into a terrarium. And hopefully have a children's python. > > That's not to say, I won't continue to maintain it while they stay alive. > > But aren't goldfish generally peaceful? So what could make them gang up and pick on an individual? > > Lisa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51438	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Compatibility between fish

Hi, we have the baby guppies now, we are experiencing a lot of left over food at the bottom of the tank. We were wondering if we can put 2 or 3 of our cori-dora's in the tank to help with the clean up - or will they attack our baby guppies? Thanks in advance! Mostly William this time and the typist Ashleigh.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51439	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

Hi! Thanks for the tip about the guppies. We'll look into that when we get to summer again (South Africa is having winter right now). Oh, and yes, the baby guppies are cute - they are about the size of a grain of rice now. Ashleigh and William --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > You're probably better off with your makeshift breeding trap, the others have been called death traps pretty often. > > Baby guppies are really cute! Congratulations on your bigger fish family! > > (Did you know guppies do quite well outdoors in a large plastic tub through the summer?) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51440	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death

Hi! Goldfish tend to become aggressive if they are fed a constant diet of high protein meals. The only way to combat this is to make sure they only get protein once a week no more. Dictated by William, typed by Ashleigh =) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > Lost a blackmoor yesterday. Don't know cause. But if appearances are anything to go by. Then it was attacked by one of the other goldfish. > Because it's caudal and pectoral fins, and all the scales on it's right side were all missing and there was a red scratch about an inch in length. > > I have another medium sized blackmoor, an orange butterfly tail bubble eye, what we call a nymph. (it resembles a comet, but dwarfed, and has tiny protrusions from its nose) and a baby red cap oranda. > > My tank is on a time limit now. Once all my fish die. I'm not maintaining the aquarium anymore, and I'm going to convert the tank into a terrarium. And hopefully have a children's python. > > That's not to say, I won't continue to maintain it while they stay alive. > > But aren't goldfish generally peaceful? So what could make them gang up and pick on an individual? > > Lisa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51441	From: haecklers	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish

Feed them less, vacuum up the food, and maybe put in some snails if you have any. Food on the bottom is very bad for the water quality. I've heard of people putting cories in with fish fry - the pygmy ones were recommended. I really don't know if they'd eat them or not. Maybe some cory expert will weigh in. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ashleigh Langhein" <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > Hi, we have the baby guppies now, we are experiencing a lot of left over food at the bottom of the tank. We were wondering if we can put 2 or 3 of our cori-dora's in the tank to help with the clean up - or will they attack our baby guppies? > > Thanks in advance! > > Mostly William this time and the typist Ashleigh. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51442	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Long Introduction

Hi Both, What type of Goldfish do you have, saying his buddy got swim bladder would make me think it was a fancy type? If your Goldfish is a regular streamlined 'fish-shaped' type he will do really well in a pond with some buddies but be sure to protect the pond well from predators. You may still get problems from now until September by keeping him in with your tropicals-if temporarily rehousing him for 4 months is an option I would strongly recommend it-if not then keep a close eye on proceeding & your water quality! John*<o)))< * On 25 May 2011 11:56, Ashleigh Langhein <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > > Hello! Thanks John for the advice. What happened was that I bought the > goldfish about a year and a half ago (along with another one). The second > goldfish got a case of swim-bladder a few months later and I was left with 1 > goldfish. About 4 months ago William took over my tank (the smaller one of > our two) and bought tropical fish for it, my condition was that he was not > allowed to evict my goldfish. > When William upgraded to the larger tank he decided to move the goldfish > with it. He has basically taken over the tanks altogether. > I actually want to get an outdoor pond for the goldfish at some point (and > buy a few more) - we don't get snow in our part of South Africa and lots of > people have outdoor fish ponds in their yards, so it might be a good bet, > but I am waiting until spring (which is around September). > > The small tank has a corner filter like this one (different brand though): > > http://petcarelive.com/img/Aquarium/penn-plax-quick-draw-box-filters.jpg > > And the larger tank has both a corner filter and a filter like this one: > > http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/auinnogood/1_030.jpg > > As for the model, I completely understand your concerns. I'll mention what > you have said to William since he is outdoors emptying the tank water he > drained off onto my plants right now. At this stage though, our Pleco's love > the shipwreck and sit in there most of the day (coming out only in the > evenings and early mornings) so I think they'll be upset to see it go > (smile). > > Ashleigh and William (who is emptying a bucket of water onto my tulip bulbs > right now). > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ashleigh & William, > > > > Welcome to the group! You have a goods sized tank-according to an online > > calculator it works out at roughly 32 UK gallons. My first reaction would > be > > to separate the Goldfish, they do not do well in heated tanks or mixing > with > > tropical fish as you have found out by him eating your Neons which is > > upsetting for you & not too good for him either. Goldfish really are only > > compatible with other Goldfish of the same type so you need to get him a > > separate large tank & he will need a buddy or 2 because they love the > > company of each another & Goldfish in groups always do better then > singles. > > Bear in mind they can grow enormous, live for many years & kick out a lot > of > > waste so you will need to factor this in when buying a Goldfish tank & > > filtration. This link will tell you all about setting up & maintaining a > > tank for them: > > http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html > > > > I am not an expert in tropical fish so cannot help you with any specifics > on > > your community or stocking levels but it sounds like you have done an > > excellent job in setting up & there are some great folks on here that can > > help you-can you tell us what type of filter you have? > > > > Personally my general advice would be to loose the shipwreck model. This > is > > because many of these decorations are not made to any safety standards & > can > > have toxic paint &/or materials which could affect the chemistry of the > > water. In addition they often have sharp or protruding edges or holes > which > > can potentially harm or trap fish. > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51443	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/25/2011
Subject: Re: Unexplained death

Hi Lisa, Following on from Dawn's post-in my original message to you I meant to say that aggressive behaviour is uncommon among *similar* types of Goldfish & I was assuming yours were all fat-bodied fancy types. I completely agree that Comets are extremely boisterous fish as I keep them & would not dream of mixing anything else except Commons. They are not malicious creatures in their actions-merely fun-loving & powerful fish that have so much energy to burn off. My lot are constantly causing mayhem in my tank & think nothing of uprooting & destroying the plants on a regular basis. Not a fish to be taken lightly!! Regarding your Nymph-I wonder if the nasal protrusions you mention are merely the flaps of skin that they all have but are sometimes less easy to spot? Alternately they could be 'Pom-Poms'. If you could post a picture or 2 that would be great. John*<o)))< * On 25 May 2011 20:35, Ashleigh Langhein <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > > Hi! Goldfish tend to become aggressive if they are fed a constant diet of > high protein meals. The only way to combat this is to make sure they only > get protein once a week no more. > > Dictated by William, typed by Ashleigh =) > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > > > Lost a blackmoor yesterday. Don't know cause. But if appearances are > anything to go by. Then it was attacked by one of the other goldfish. > > Because it's caudal and pectoral fins, and all the scales on it's right > side were all missing and there was a red scratch about an inch in length. > > > > I have another medium sized blackmoor, an orange butterfly tail bubble > eye, what we call a nymph. (it resembles a comet, but dwarfed, and has tiny > protrusions from its nose) and a baby red cap oranda. > > > > My tank is on a time limit now. Once all my fish die. I'm not maintaining > the aquarium anymore, and I'm going to convert the tank into a terrarium. > And hopefully have a children's python. > > > > That's not to say, I won't continue to maintain it while they stay alive. > > > > But aren't goldfish generally peaceful? So what could make them gang up > and pick on an individual? > > > > Lisa > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51444	From: haecklers	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51445	From: haecklers	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51446	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

What kind of danio's? I have giant danio's and they actively seek out the newly born BN pleco's in my tank, and eat them. I haven't seen them kill them, but I've found one or two dead the last few months. I haven't had kuhli loaches so I'm not sure how aggressive they are. Amber On 5/27/2011 3:57 AM, haecklers wrote: > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think > they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. > My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in > there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to > almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than > 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of > the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest > were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing > visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped > what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but > more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were > 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry > tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, > couldn't catch. > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > could find. > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami > fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis > have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. > There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), > there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and > the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of > plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm > using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but > the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, > too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really > far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the > orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were > aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear > where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that > tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in > the substrate. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51447	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Oh no! What a PITA now... I'm not sure if rid-ich is dangerous on fry.... Hopefully someone else will speak up. Amber On 5/27/2011 4:43 AM, haecklers wrote: > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs > of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one > of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps > aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the > temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but > now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my > larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the > pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 > of them!!!! > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot > of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try > Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think > they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. > My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in > there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to > almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than > 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of > the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the > tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the > rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and > nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were > stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still > there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, > there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the > betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I > didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that > I could find. > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami > fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis > have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. > There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not > seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), > there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and > the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of > plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm > using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but > the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, > too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really > far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the > orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were > aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear > where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that > tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in > the substrate. > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51448	From: Sivakumar Viswanathan	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

increasing heat hastens the cycle of the parasite's reproduction production process. you will have to treat the whole tank. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 6:13:44 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had >around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter >thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all >but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the >pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do >that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, >just in case. > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a >couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely >whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. >We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in >there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got >home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could >find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I >didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could >find. > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), >the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would >any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but >have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other >fish, health-wise. > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead >babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in >there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of >houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out >the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe >it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was >brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the >plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really >far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're >hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are >around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about >it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta >runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small >stuff in the substrate. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51449	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Water Question

I have a bit of an issue going on and I would really appreciate some quick answers if ya'll can help. The county that I live in has a water emergency - the water is not drinkable because of a chloro something bacteria. Bottled water is sold out everywhere. We don't have any real pet stores here. My 30 gallon tropical tank has about 1/4 of the water out of it and I am afraid to refill it with my water because of the bacteria. I am boiling water for myself and the cats. Can I add boiled water (cooled off of course) with Prime to the tank? I am afraid that if it gets any lower (because of evaporation) that my HOB is going to stop working. Also, if you can cc me on your emails since I get digest version and probably won't see it until tomorrow - paulabrown4480 at gmail.com (using the @ sign of course with no spaces). Thanks! Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51450	From: Frank Woolf	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question

One of the simplest ways to sterilize water is to fill clear plastic bottles, close them and leave in full sunlight for 5 or 6 hours. This kills all the bacteria. On May 28, 2011, at 4:36 AM, PAULA BROWN wrote: > I have a bit of an issue going on and I would really appreciate some quick > answers if ya'll can help. The county that I live in has a water emergency > - the water is not drinkable because of a chloro something bacteria. > Bottled water is sold out everywhere. We don't have any real pet stores > here. My 30 gallon tropical tank has about 1/4 of the water out of it and I > am afraid to refill it with my water because of the bacteria. I am boiling > water for myself and the cats. Can I add boiled water (cooled off of > course) with Prime to the tank? I am afraid that if it gets any lower > (because of evaporation) that my HOB is going to stop working. Also, if you > can cc me on your emails since I get digest version and probably won't see > it until tomorrow - paulabrown4480 at gmail.com (using the @ sign of course > with no spaces). Thanks! > > Paula > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51451	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Hi, That's a shame about your baby Plecos-now I know very little about any fish except Carps but assuming your other fish are ok with salt then this is the safest way to treat Ich-any other water based treatment will likely mess up your bio filter. Plecos should be fine as I have salted my tank before & I have a Highfin & a Rubbernose Pleco in there but your plants may suffer, I only have Vallis & that is not bothered by the salt-just a thought. Hoping you can sort it ok. John*<o)))< * On 27 May 2011 18:52, Sivakumar Viswanathan <sub_mails@...> wrote: > > > increasing heat hastens the cycle of the parasite's reproduction production > > process. you will have to treat the whole tank. > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 6:13:44 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it > and > I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all > the > fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, > so > that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're > in > to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other > gourami fry > with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 > days > in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of > them!!!! > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of > them > just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is > that > dangerous on small fry?? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they > had > >around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter > >thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught > all > >but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them > to the > >pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided > to do > >that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to > grow out, > >just in case. > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > Only a > >couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were > completely > >whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with > them. > >We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest > in > >there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we > got > >home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I > could > >find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were > some I > >didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > could > >find. > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > half-grown), > >the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. > Would > >any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately > but > >have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the > other > >fish, health-wise. > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > any dead > >babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > hydra in > >there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk > of > >houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion > sticking out > >the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but > maybe > >it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it > was > >brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on > the > >plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are > really > >far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > they're > >hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and > are > >around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think > about > >it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some > betta > >runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very > small > >stuff in the substrate. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51452	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 5/27/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Most loaches have problems with meds/salt treatments for ich, you tend to have to use half the dose for most of them. Are kuhli loaches a scaleless loach like botia's? Amber On 5/27/2011 2:00 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi, > > That's a shame about your baby Plecos-now I know very little about any > fish except Carps but assuming your other fish are ok with salt then > this is > the safest way to treat Ich-any other water based treatment will > likely mess > up your bio filter. Plecos should be fine as I have salted my tank > before & > I have a Highfin & a Rubbernose Pleco in there but your plants may > suffer, I > only have Vallis & that is not bothered by the salt-just a thought. Hoping > you can sort it ok. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 27 May 2011 18:52, Sivakumar Viswanathan <sub_mails@... > <mailto:sub_mails%40yahoo.co.in>> wrote: > > > > > > > increasing heat hastens the cycle of the parasite's reproduction > production > > > > process. you will have to treat the whole tank. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 6:13:44 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos > > > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any > signs of it > > and > > I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the > fry - all > > the > > fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead > ones, > > so > > that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks > they're > > in > > to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other > > gourami fry > > with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, > after 2 > > days > > in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of > > them!!!! > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a > lot of > > them > > just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich > or is > > that > > dangerous on small fry?? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I > think they > > had > > >around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My > daughter > > >thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we > caught > > all > > >but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we > sold them > > to the > > >pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we > decided > > to do > > >that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to > > grow out, > > >just in case. > > > > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > > Only a > > >couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were > > completely > > >whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong > with > > them. > > >We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left > the rest > > in > > >there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we > > got > > >home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I > > could > > >find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There > were > > some I > > >didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > > could > > >find. > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > > half-grown), > > >the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 > danios. > > Would > > >any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more > lately > > but > > >have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong > with the > > other > > >fish, health-wise. > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > > any dead > > >babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > > hydra in > > >there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a > stalk > > of > > >houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion > > sticking out > > >the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it > up but > > maybe > > >it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick > when it > > was > > >brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they > suck on > > the > > >plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are > > really > > >far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > > they're > > >hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black > kind and > > are > > >around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I > think > > about > > >it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some > > betta > > >runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of > very > > small > > >stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51453	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Water Question

Frank wrote: "One of the simplest ways to sterilize water is to fill clear plastic bottles, close them and leave in full sunlight for 5 or 6 hours. This kills all the bacteria." Sunlight? We haven't seen sunlight in a week! That is the reason why, at least what the water treatment plant is saying, that we have the bacteria - because of all the rain that we have had. I boiled water yesterday, had it sitting in a bucket overnight and will pour it into the tank today. Thanks! Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51454	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Yes, I'm pretty sure my kuhlis are scale-less. They're the long ones that look like tiny snakes. I read some forums that recommended colloidial silver for ich - said it doesn't harm the fish and can get rid of it in 2 days. I'd guess it would harm the biological filter, but in my one fry tank I'm not running a filter, just have a lot of plants. I put in some test drops yesterday and none of the fish died so I added a little more last night. This morning I've seen 2 with some spots on their tails, but they're still eating and acting normal. I'm not sure if I'll carry throuh with this or go buy something. In the meantime I may add some salt. How much aquarium salt per gallon is the big question, tho - I've read if you don't put in enough it does no good, too much stresses the fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Most loaches have problems with meds/salt treatments for ich, you tend > to have to use half the dose for most of them. > Are kuhli loaches a scaleless loach like botia's? > > Amber > > On 5/27/2011 2:00 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > That's a shame about your baby Plecos-now I know very little about any > > fish except Carps but assuming your other fish are ok with salt then > > this is > > the safest way to treat Ich-any other water based treatment will > > likely mess > > up your bio filter. Plecos should be fine as I have salted my tank > > before & > > I have a Highfin & a Rubbernose Pleco in there but your plants may > > suffer, I > > only have Vallis & that is not bothered by the salt-just a thought. Hoping > > you can sort it ok. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > On 27 May 2011 18:52, Sivakumar Viswanathan <sub_mails@... > > <mailto:sub_mails%40yahoo.co.in>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > increasing heat hastens the cycle of the parasite's reproduction > > production > > > > > > process. you will have to treat the whole tank. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Fri, 27 May, 2011 6:13:44 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos > > > > > > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any > > signs of it > > > and > > > I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the > > fry - all > > > the > > > fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead > > ones, > > > so > > > that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks > > they're > > > in > > > to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other > > > gourami fry > > > with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, > > after 2 > > > days > > > in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of > > > them!!!! > > > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a > > lot of > > > them > > > just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich > > or is > > > that > > > dangerous on small fry?? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I > > think they > > > had > > > >around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My > > daughter > > > >thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we > > caught > > > all > > > >but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we > > sold them > > > to the > > > >pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we > > decided > > > to do > > > >that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to > > > grow out, > > > >just in case. > > > > > > > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > > > Only a > > > >couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were > > > completely > > > >whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong > > with > > > them. > > > >We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left > > the rest > > > in > > > >there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we > > > got > > > >home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I > > > could > > > >find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There > > were > > > some I > > > >didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > > > could > > > >find. > > > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > > > half-grown), > > > >the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 > > danios. > > > Would > > > >any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more > > lately > > > but > > > >have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong > > with the > > > other > > > >fish, health-wise. > > > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > > > any dead > > > >babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > > > hydra in > > > >there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a > > stalk > > > of > > > >houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion > > > sticking out > > > >the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it > > up but > > > maybe > > > >it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick > > when it > > > was > > > >brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they > > suck on > > > the > > > >plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are > > > really > > > >far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > > > they're > > > >hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black > > kind and > > > are > > > >around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I > > think > > > about > > > >it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some > > > betta > > > >runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of > > very > > > small > > > >stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51455	From: Frank Woolf	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question

Sorry to hear that. I didn't realize your weather was like that. I sort of assumed that water shortage meant tropical region for some reason. On May 28, 2011, at 7:51 PM, PAULA BROWN wrote: > Frank wrote: "One of the simplest ways to sterilize water is to fill clear > plastic bottles, close them and leave in full sunlight for 5 or 6 hours. > This kills all the bacteria." > > Sunlight? We haven't seen sunlight in a week! That is the reason why, at > least what the water treatment plant is saying, that we have the bacteria - > because of all the rain that we have had. I boiled water yesterday, had it > sitting in a bucket overnight and will pour it into the tank today. Thanks! > > Paula > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51456	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Hi, sorry to hear about your ich issue and the loss of your fry - I went thru a bout with ich last year and used an herbal treatment called Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Natural Ich Treatment - it treated my 100 G with six 4 inch clown loaches, a peacock eel with absolutely no ill effects. It is an herbal treatment and takes a little longer but is safer for sensitive fish - might want to try it considering the fry in the tanks.....hope it all shakes out for you. I know it absolutely worked for me = I lost no fish at all thru the whole treatment. Good luck! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51457	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Thanks! I just found some in our local fish store so I'm trying that. We seem to have lost all but 1 of the bristlenose plecos overnight - the snails must have eaten them because I'm not even seeing the bodies, there are just none to be seen. The betta fry seem to be faring much better, I'm not seeing any dead ones, tho a few have some white spots on their tails. Baby bristlenose plecos must be really especially sensitive to ich! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, sorry to hear about your ich issue and the loss of your fry - I went thru a bout with ich last year and used an herbal treatment called Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Natural Ich Treatment - it treated my 100 G with six 4 inch clown loaches, a peacock eel with absolutely no ill effects. It is an herbal treatment and takes a little longer but is safer for sensitive fish - might want to try it considering the fry in the tanks.....hope it all shakes out for you. I know it absolutely worked for me = I lost no fish at all thru the whole treatment. > Good luck! > Clare > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51458	From: Sabrina	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: (no subject)

Hello all, I just joined this group so I can learn more about aquarium keeping. I currently have a mississippi map turtle and wanted to create an aquarium for him with lots of plants and small edible fish. So I am looking to learn how to grow aquarium plants and for an online place to purchase plants. My local petsmart does not carry a good selection. * Sabrina *

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51459	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

RidIch contains malachite green and formalin, not safe for fish fry or loaches. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51460	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Water Question

Sunlight can be a great sterilizer, however, the container must be clear and the water must be shallow in order for the UV rays of the sun to penetrate and do the job. A gallon size jug would be too deep to achieve effective results. Other options would be chlorine tablets, treating water according to instructions in a separate container and then treating it with a good water conditioner such as Prime, Amquel Plus, or AquaSafe... or a UV Sterilizer added to your set up, which would kill the bacteria as it is channeled through the sterilizer unit. Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Frank Woolf <frank@...> wrote: > > One of the simplest ways to sterilize water is to fill clear plastic bottles, close them and leave in full sunlight for 5 or 6 hours. This kills all the bacteria. > > > > On May 28, 2011, at 4:36 AM, PAULA BROWN wrote: > > > I have a bit of an issue going on and I would really appreciate some quick > > answers if ya'll can help. The county that I live in has a water emergency > > - the water is not drinkable because of a chloro something bacteria. > > Bottled water is sold out everywhere. We don't have any real pet stores > > here. My 30 gallon tropical tank has about 1/4 of the water out of it and I > > am afraid to refill it with my water because of the bacteria. I am boiling > > water for myself and the cats. Can I add boiled water (cooled off of > > course) with Prime to the tank? I am afraid that if it gets any lower > > (because of evaporation) that my HOB is going to stop working. Also, if you > > can cc me on your emails since I get digest version and probably won't see > > it until tomorrow - paulabrown4480 at gmail.com (using the @ sign of course > > with no spaces). Thanks! > > > > Paula > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51461	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Hi, Here's hoping the Kordon works for you. If not then you may have to go with the salt-for what it's worth I can tell you what I would use for Carps/Goldfish etc but whether or not it would be suitable for your set up I don't know... Add 1 Tablespoon (=15 ml, or 0.5 oz) of salt per gallon of water. Add the total amount you need for your tank in two or three additions over a day or two. This is to slowly bring up the salt level. Keep them in the salt 10 days after the last spots are seen-this is very important, although the spots are gone the parasites are still free in your tank & this is where they get nuked! When you do partial water changes only add salt back to the water you replace & at the same proportion as above. After the 10 day period simply stop adding salt & it will gradually be removed by your regular partial water changes. If you have real plants you'll probably have to remove them to a holding bucket during the period of treatment as the salt will kill them. You can use kosher/pickling/sea or rock salt in addition to aquarium salt but dissolve it in a jug of tank water before adding back to your tank. Never use regular table salt as it contains harmful chemicals.The beauty of treating Ich with salt is it doesn�t harm your filter, is completely safe [unlike many treatments you pour in your tank] & costs very little. John*<o)))<* On 28 May 2011 18:49, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > RidIch contains malachite green and formalin, not safe for fish fry or > loaches. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they > had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My > daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we > caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we > sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. > Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos > to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were > completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible > wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we > left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably > hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I > removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple > weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > could find. > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and > 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been > hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing > visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a > stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion > sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look > it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the > fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they > seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant > because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would > make a huge mess. > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black > kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now > that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red > cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they > just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51462	From: haecklers	Date: 5/28/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Thanks! I have aquarium salt and will probably use that if the other stuff doesn't work. It's not looking good - almost all the older betta fry have the spots on their tails now, but so far are still acting normal. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, Here's hoping the Kordon works for you. If not then you may have to go > with the salt-for what it's worth I can tell you what I would use for > Carps/Goldfish etc but whether or not it would be suitable for your set up I > don't know... > > Add 1 Tablespoon (=15 ml, or 0.5 oz) of salt per gallon of water. Add the > total amount you need for your tank in two or three additions over a day or > two. This is to slowly bring up the salt level. Keep them in the salt 10 > days after the last spots are seen-this is very important, although the > spots are gone the parasites are still free in your tank & this is where > they get nuked! When you do partial water changes only add salt back to the > water you replace & at the same proportion as above. > > After the 10 day period simply stop adding salt & it will gradually be > removed by your regular partial water changes. If you have real plants > you'll probably have to remove them to a holding bucket during the period of > treatment as the salt will kill them. You can use kosher/pickling/sea or > rock salt in addition to aquarium salt but dissolve it in a jug of tank > water before adding back to your tank. Never use regular table salt as it > contains harmful chemicals.The beauty of treating Ich with salt is it > doesn't harm your filter, is completely safe [unlike many treatments you > pour in your tank] & costs very little. > > > John*<o)))<* > > > On 28 May 2011 18:49, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > > > > > RidIch contains malachite green and formalin, not safe for fish fry or > > loaches. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they > > had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My > > daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we > > caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we > > sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. > > Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos > > to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. > > Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were > > completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible > > wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we > > left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably > > hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I > > removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple > > weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I > > could find. > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about > > half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and > > 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been > > hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing > > visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing > > any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of > > hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a > > stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion > > sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look > > it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the > > fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they > > seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant > > because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would > > make a huge mess. > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now > > they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black > > kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now > > that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red > > cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they > > just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51463	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/29/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Oh, how sad - the bettas sure sound tougher. Don't get discouraged if it seems to take a bit of time - i also did daily 10% wc's in conjunction with the treatment - Kordon's herbal treatment was definitely worth it in the end. Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thanks! I just found some in our local fish store so I'm trying that. We seem to have lost all but 1 of the bristlenose plecos overnight - the snails must have eaten them because I'm not even seeing the bodies, there are just none to be seen. The betta fry seem to be faring much better, I'm not seeing any dead ones, tho a few have some white spots on their tails. > > Baby bristlenose plecos must be really especially sensitive to ich! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Hi, sorry to hear about your ich issue and the loss of your fry - I went thru a bout with ich last year and used an herbal treatment called Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Natural Ich Treatment - it treated my 100 G with six 4 inch clown loaches, a peacock eel with absolutely no ill effects. It is an herbal treatment and takes a little longer but is safer for sensitive fish - might want to try it considering the fry in the tanks.....hope it all shakes out for you. I know it absolutely worked for me = I lost no fish at all thru the whole treatment. > > Good luck! > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! > > > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51464	From: haecklers	Date: 5/30/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

So far it looks like most of them will pull through! There are some fry that have a lot of the white ich spots but a lot of the others don't. Even the very spotty ones are still eating and acting normal. I was able to turn up the temperature of the one tank to 86F, which alone should kill the free-swimming ich, or so I've read, but the other fry are in a 2.5 gallon tank and the heater can't heat it that high. They seem ok, tho. I thought there were only 16 fry in there but last night I counted 22, so I'm guessing none have died yet. The gourami fry, which are older (2 & 3 months) don't even show any spots of ich. The baby bristlenoses are either especially sensitive to it, or maybe the water conditions are not right for them, making them more susceptible. Since I don't know the specific strain of plecos they are I don't know where they came from or the water conditions they should have. Mine are a marbled brown color and only get the regular spot pattern when they are stressed. My guess is they are triradiatus but I'm not sure, since there are so many strains. I was nervous about putting the Kordon Ich-Attack in the original tank that got the others infected, because I have baby kuhlis and red cherry shrimp in there but I did anyways, thinking the kuhlis might die of ich if I didn't. So far if anything the kuhlis and shrimp have become more active and they seem happy. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Oh, how sad - the bettas sure sound tougher. Don't get discouraged if it seems to take a bit of time - i also did daily 10% wc's in conjunction with the treatment - Kordon's herbal treatment was definitely worth it in the end. Good luck! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thanks! I just found some in our local fish store so I'm trying that. We seem to have lost all but 1 of the bristlenose plecos overnight - the snails must have eaten them because I'm not even seeing the bodies, there are just none to be seen. The betta fry seem to be faring much better, I'm not seeing any dead ones, tho a few have some white spots on their tails. > > > > Baby bristlenose plecos must be really especially sensitive to ich! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, sorry to hear about your ich issue and the loss of your fry - I went thru a bout with ich last year and used an herbal treatment called Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Natural Ich Treatment - it treated my 100 G with six 4 inch clown loaches, a peacock eel with absolutely no ill effects. It is an herbal treatment and takes a little longer but is safer for sensitive fish - might want to try it considering the fry in the tanks.....hope it all shakes out for you. I know it absolutely worked for me = I lost no fish at all thru the whole treatment. > > > Good luck! > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! > > > > > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > > > > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51465	From: cobra427lady	Date: 5/30/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Hurray for you - sounds like you nipped it in the bud! It took about three weeks of treatment for me to rid my 100G tank of ich - the clown loaches were the only fish with spots for the entire time - it was a pain to get rid of, but the w/c's, Kordons and temp raising got 'em through it. Glad to hear that Kordons came through for yet another case of ich - I keep it on hand now JIC - ya never know :-) Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > So far it looks like most of them will pull through! There are some fry that have a lot of the white ich spots but a lot of the others don't. Even the very spotty ones are still eating and acting normal. I was able to turn up the temperature of the one tank to 86F, which alone should kill the free-swimming ich, or so I've read, but the other fry are in a 2.5 gallon tank and the heater can't heat it that high. They seem ok, tho. I thought there were only 16 fry in there but last night I counted 22, so I'm guessing none have died yet. > > The gourami fry, which are older (2 & 3 months) don't even show any spots of ich. The baby bristlenoses are either especially sensitive to it, or maybe the water conditions are not right for them, making them more susceptible. Since I don't know the specific strain of plecos they are I don't know where they came from or the water conditions they should have. Mine are a marbled brown color and only get the regular spot pattern when they are stressed. My guess is they are triradiatus but I'm not sure, since there are so many strains. > > I was nervous about putting the Kordon Ich-Attack in the original tank that got the others infected, because I have baby kuhlis and red cherry shrimp in there but I did anyways, thinking the kuhlis might die of ich if I didn't. So far if anything the kuhlis and shrimp have become more active and they seem happy. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Oh, how sad - the bettas sure sound tougher. Don't get discouraged if it seems to take a bit of time - i also did daily 10% wc's in conjunction with the treatment - Kordon's herbal treatment was definitely worth it in the end. Good luck! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks! I just found some in our local fish store so I'm trying that. We seem to have lost all but 1 of the bristlenose plecos overnight - the snails must have eaten them because I'm not even seeing the bodies, there are just none to be seen. The betta fry seem to be faring much better, I'm not seeing any dead ones, tho a few have some white spots on their tails. > > > > > > Baby bristlenose plecos must be really especially sensitive to ich! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, sorry to hear about your ich issue and the loss of your fry - I went thru a bout with ich last year and used an herbal treatment called Kordon Ich-Attack 100% Natural Ich Treatment - it treated my 100 G with six 4 inch clown loaches, a peacock eel with absolutely no ill effects. It is an herbal treatment and takes a little longer but is safer for sensitive fish - might want to try it considering the fry in the tanks.....hope it all shakes out for you. I know it absolutely worked for me = I lost no fish at all thru the whole treatment. > > > > Good luck! > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > It was ich. Weird because none of the other fish have shown any signs of it and I double-checked them after seeing some white bumps on one of the fry - all the fry have it and none of the other fish. The bumps aren't on the dead ones, so that's why I didn't see it. I raised the temperatures of the tanks they're in to hopefully get rid of it, but now I've infested my betta and other gourami fry with the disease - my larger (3 wk) betta fry have spots already, after 2 days in with the pleco fry. The smaller betta fry seem ok. > > > > > > > > > > GAH! I thought my tanks were stable and ok! Now I've spread this to 4 of them!!!! > > > > > > > > > > Any recommendations for the 3 wk betta fry? I'm afraid I'll lose a lot of them just waiting for the heat to kill off the ich - should I try Rid-Ich or is that dangerous on small fry?? > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > My bristlenose plecos spawned in the tank I set up for that. I think they had around 40. Once they began free-swimming we found a dead one. My daughter thought it was the gourami fry that were growing out in there so we caught all but one of the larger ones (they were 1.5" to almost 2") and we sold them to the pet store. Only the ones less than 3/4 inch were left. Before we decided to do that I had removed 12 of the baby bristlenose plecos to other tanks to grow out, just in case. > > > > > > > > > > > > The next morning I found 10 dead babies, scattered around in the tank. Only a couple looked like anything had tried to eat them, the rest were completely whole, with food showing in their bellies and nothing visible wrong with them. We had to go out all day, and were stumped what to do so we left the rest in there (I counted 22 still there but more were probably hiding). When we got home, around 7 pm, there were 6 more dead ones. I removed as many as I could find to the betta fry tank (they're only a couple weeks old). There were some I didn't see, couldn't catch. > > > > > > > > > > > > This morning there were another 5 dead ones and only 1 live one that I could find. > > > > > > > > > > > > They're in with red cherry shrimp, two baby kuhli loaches (about half-grown), the parent bristlenoses (male and female), the gourami fry, and 3 danios. Would any of those kill so many babies? The kuhlis have been hiding more lately but have seemed healthy up until now. There is nothing visibly wrong with the other fish, health-wise. > > > > > > > > > > > > All the baby bristlenose plecos I've removed are fine - I'm not seeing any dead babies in any of the 3 tanks I've put them in. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only possibilities I can think of are that I did see a couple of hydra in there (but they seem to have been eaten by the gourami), there's a stalk of houseplant in there - rooted in the substrate and the leafy portion sticking out the top. I don't know what kind of plant it is so I can't look it up but maybe it's poisonous? And I'm using a heater that has made the fish sick when it was brand-new (but the parents suck on it now and they seem ok - they suck on the plant, too.) I'm reluctant to pull out the plant because the roots are really far into the soil substrate now, and it would make a huge mess. > > > > > > > > > > > > Since more die at night, maybe the kuhlis are killing them, and now they're hiding more because they're not hungry? They are the orange/black kind and are around 2" long. I didn't think they were aggressive, but now that I think about it, baby stuff does disappear where they live - red cherry shrimp, some betta runts I put in that tank... I always thought they just lived off of very small stuff in the substrate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51466	From: Ashleigh Langhein	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Sick red-eye tetra

Hi! We have a sick red-eye tetra with a large white mass coming out of his right hand gill. It also has a sunken left hand side gill. Can anyone advise us on what this might be? He is in an isolation container now. Ashleigh and William

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51467	From: Ron Obvious	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: African cichlid needs new home

If you are in St. Louis, MO, I have a bad boy fish who needs a new home. A very hardy fish, all golden in color. A very aggressive fish and not suitable for a community tank. I rescued him from a tutoring center several months ago when they closed their business. I have pictures available if you want him.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51468	From: haecklers	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Re: African cichlid needs new home

You can try putting him on craigslist, too. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ron Obvious" <marc0cinc00@...> wrote: > > If you are in St. Louis, MO, I have a bad boy fish who needs a new home. A very hardy fish, all golden in color. A very aggressive fish and not suitable for a community tank. I rescued him from a tutoring center several months ago when they closed their business. I have pictures available if you want him. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51469	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 5/31/2011
Subject: Re: Sick red-eye tetra

Hi Can you post a picture? It sounds like he could have been trapped under or against something that fell over, is there any decor, equipment or rocks out of place in your tank? Is his hospital tank filtered is he still swimming & upright? Can you describe the white mass-does it look like cotton wool & does it move with the slipstream or is it solid with the fish? John*<o)))< * On 31 May 2011 20:07, Ashleigh Langhein <ashleighlanghein@...> wrote: > > > Hi! We have a sick red-eye tetra with a large white mass coming out of his > right hand gill. It also has a sunken left hand side gill. > > Can anyone advise us on what this might be? He is in an isolation container > now. > > Ashleigh and William > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51470	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish

I like to have Corys in my tanks, because they are hearty scavengers. They do eat left over flakes and I've only seen them eat deceased fish - not live ones. They are great at cleaning up :) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Feed them less, vacuum up the food, and maybe put in some snails if you have any. Food on the bottom is very bad for the water quality. > > I've heard of people putting cories in with fish fry - the pygmy ones were recommended. I really don't know if they'd eat them or not. > > Maybe some cory expert will weigh in. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ashleigh Langhein" <ashleighlanghein@> wrote: > > > > Hi, we have the baby guppies now, we are experiencing a lot of left over food at the bottom of the tank. We were wondering if we can put 2 or 3 of our cori-dora's in the tank to help with the clean up - or will they attack our baby guppies? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Mostly William this time and the typist Ashleigh. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51471	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility between fish

My cory's don't seem to eat any of my guppy fry. They could care less that they are there. Since the guppy fry tend to swim at the top and the cory's are at the bottom, they don't tend to see each other very much. Snails are not as good of a cleanup crew as corys, since snails poop just as much as they eat, they're actually rather dirty little critters, and depending on the type of snail they can quickly over run your tank with millions of snails in a short time frame. Amber On 6/1/2011 8:58 AM, gailsugarpants wrote: > > I like to have Corys in my tanks, because they are hearty scavengers. > They do eat left over flakes and I've only seen them eat deceased fish > - not live ones. > > They are great at cleaning up :) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > Feed them less, vacuum up the food, and maybe put in some snails if > you have any. Food on the bottom is very bad for the water quality. > > > > I've heard of people putting cories in with fish fry - the pygmy > ones were recommended. I really don't know if they'd eat them or not. > > > > Maybe some cory expert will weigh in. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ashleigh Langhein" > <ashleighlanghein@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, we have the baby guppies now, we are experiencing a lot of > left over food at the bottom of the tank. We were wondering if we can > put 2 or 3 of our cori-dora's in the tank to help with the clean up - > or will they attack our baby guppies? > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Mostly William this time and the typist Ashleigh. > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51472	From: Ken Roy	Date: 6/1/2011
Subject: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs

For last over 35 years, I have been keeping Tiger Barbs in different community tanks. I have noticed that some groups of Tiger Barbs do not nip the fins of other slow moving species but some groups are very aggressive and I have to change them. I would like to have some in-put from others who have same expereince. Ken Roy Lahore, Pakistan www.kendensar.info

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51473	From: haecklers	Date: 6/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

My 10 gallon fry tank doesn't look so good - a lot of the fry are just covered in white bumps and I can't see how they're still alive, but a few don't have any. I'm hoping when the bumps - cysts, fall off that will be the end of it, that the Kordon's is killing the free-swimming phase. Unfortunately the ich spread to the Jack Dempsey fry and the last 2 days I've been seeing a few with white bumps on their heads. Yesterday I saw a few dead ones (they mostly float). There are so many it doesn't seem like a great loss but we're hoping 1/4 of them will be Electric Blue Jack Dempseys - (they sell for $50 each at 3") and they're more fragile so I'm worried the dead ones are our Electric Blue fry! Word to the wise, it didn't occur to me until too late that the microworm cultures I've been feeding from for all the tanks could be a vector of spreading ich. I should have had a separate culture for each tank, instead of feeding from whichever one had the most worms at the time! I hope everyone can learn from my mistakes! I think all of the bristlenose pleco babies have died. The last time I saw one was 2 days ago. Next time they breed I'll treat the tank for ich preventively! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hurray for you - sounds like you nipped it in the bud! > It took about three weeks of treatment for me to rid my 100G tank of ich - the clown loaches were the only fish with spots for the entire time - it was a pain to get rid of, but the w/c's, Kordons and temp raising got 'em through it. > Glad to hear that Kordons came through for yet another case of ich - I keep it on hand now JIC - ya never know :-) > Cheers, > Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51474	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/2/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Oh, no - how sad - the fry are just so fragile. Sorry for your losses. Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > My 10 gallon fry tank doesn't look so good - a lot of the fry are just covered in white bumps and I can't see how they're still alive, but a few don't have any. I'm hoping when the bumps - cysts, fall off that will be the end of it, that the Kordon's is killing the free-swimming phase. > > Unfortunately the ich spread to the Jack Dempsey fry and the last 2 days I've been seeing a few with white bumps on their heads. Yesterday I saw a few dead ones (they mostly float). There are so many it doesn't seem like a great loss but we're hoping 1/4 of them will be Electric Blue Jack Dempseys - (they sell for $50 each at 3") and they're more fragile so I'm worried the dead ones are our Electric Blue fry! > > Word to the wise, it didn't occur to me until too late that the microworm cultures I've been feeding from for all the tanks could be a vector of spreading ich. I should have had a separate culture for each tank, instead of feeding from whichever one had the most worms at the time! I hope everyone can learn from my mistakes! > > I think all of the bristlenose pleco babies have died. The last time I saw one was 2 days ago. Next time they breed I'll treat the tank for ich preventively! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Hurray for you - sounds like you nipped it in the bud! > > It took about three weeks of treatment for me to rid my 100G tank of ich - the clown loaches were the only fish with spots for the entire time - it was a pain to get rid of, but the w/c's, Kordons and temp raising got 'em through it. > > Glad to hear that Kordons came through for yet another case of ich - I keep it on hand now JIC - ya never know :-) > > Cheers, > > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51475	From: ahenney	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: dead fish ID, please

We need your expertise. Today a bunch of dead fish washed up on the beach between Cape Henlopen and Rehoboth. Most were missing the head and tail. But I suspect several days of decomposition. Most were similar to the one shown in photo #1 below. But there were a few like photo #5 and #6. Can you identify the fish involved? http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish1.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish2.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish3.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish4.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish5.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish6.JPG Thanks! Alan

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51476	From: Wendie	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please

We called them bunker but the proper name is Menhaden Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "ahenney" <alan@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] dead fish ID, please We need your expertise. Today a bunch of dead fish washed up on the beach between Cape Henlopen and Rehoboth. Most were missing the head and tail. But I suspect several days of decomposition. Most were similar to the one shown in photo #1 below. But there were a few like photo #5 and #6. Can you identify the fish involved? http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish1.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish2.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish3.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish4.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish5.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish6.JPG Thanks! Alan ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51477	From: Wendie	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please

Looks like a bunker to me. Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "ahenney" <alan@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] dead fish ID, please We need your expertise. Today a bunch of dead fish washed up on the beach between Cape Henlopen and Rehoboth. Most were missing the head and tail. But I suspect several days of decomposition. Most were similar to the one shown in photo #1 below. But there were a few like photo #5 and #6. Can you identify the fish involved? http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish1.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish2.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish3.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish4.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish5.JPG http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish6.JPG Thanks! Alan ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51478	From: Joseph F	Date: 6/4/2011
Subject: Endlers Livebearer available

I have a few extra pure strain "Black Bar" Endlers. Endlers are very active and extremely hardy & tolerant of varying water conditions. Pics in teh photo section under "A1 Endlers Livebearer" Contact / Info: * Adult males & females available @ $5 each * This strain has the brightest coloration I've seen as compared to national & local sellers. Pure Black Bar genes, not crossed with guppies. * The minimum combined order is only $20 (+shipping). * Payment accepted by Paypal. * Send email to: joseph7787@... Shipping (USA only): I'll ship Priority Class for $10. Shipping days: Monday & Tuesday. This avoids any chance of having the package get stuck at the post office over a weekend. Endler Overview & History: These are 100% pure strain "Black Bar" Endlers, one of the few original strains introduced into the hobby. They boast swirls of neon colored patches that pop out like jewels. Their unique coloration consists of vivid reds, greens, oranges, whites, and blues in endless color combinations. The "Black Bar" pure strain has a black bar on their flanks, allowing the other colors to really contrast and glow. They are originally from the Northeastern part of Venezuela, South America, and were discovered in the late the late 1930's. They were later rediscovered by John Endler in 1975, and slowly introduced into the fish hobby. They are related to and resemble the common guppy. This little colorful fish is always active, very hardy and truly prolific. The Endler is still rare in the hobby but is gaining popularity due to its amazing colors and ease of care. Additional detailed Endler information can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poecilia_wingei QUICK STATS: Care level: Easy Temperament: Peaceful Water conditions: 64-82F, PH 5.5 - 8.0 (very tolerant of changing aquarium conditions) Max Size: 1" to 1.25" Diet: Omnivore (flake, frozen, live, freeze dried, etc. They are not picky eaters) Lifespan: Average 3 to 5 years Reproduction: Very Easy. Gestation lasts 23 days, with 1-30 fry per birth. Become breeding adults with 30-60 days

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51479	From: haecklers	Date: 6/5/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please

There have been some really huge menhaden die-offs since the Gulf Oil Spill - they migrate up the coast from the Gulf. Some are pretty sure the spill is the cause, but the DEP hardly ever blames die-offs on chemical poisoning unless it's naturally-occurring. Maybe they're afraid they'll get their resources tied up in lawsuits. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101108/hl_yblog_upshot/scientists-think-bp-oil-is-already-having-toxic-effects-on-gulf-food-chain --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@...> wrote: > > Looks like a bunker to me. > Wendie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ahenney" <alan@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] dead fish ID, please > > > > We need your expertise. Today a bunch of dead fish washed up on the beach > between Cape Henlopen and Rehoboth. > > Most were missing the head and tail. But I suspect several days of > decomposition. > > Most were similar to the one shown in photo #1 below. But there were a few > like photo #5 and #6. > > Can you identify the fish involved? > > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish1.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish2.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish3.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish4.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish5.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish6.JPG > > Thanks! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51480	From: Wendie	Date: 6/5/2011
Subject: Re: dead fish ID, please

We always used them for bait - great for catching blues, fluke, etc. Years ago we used to have 2 processing plants for the bunker (menhaden) between Amagansett and Montauk on Long Island. Boy, you could sure smell them when the wind was right. There were several bunker catching boats in the area which were a couple hundred feet in length. Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2011 6:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: dead fish ID, please There have been some really huge menhaden die-offs since the Gulf Oil Spill - they migrate up the coast from the Gulf. Some are pretty sure the spill is the cause, but the DEP hardly ever blames die-offs on chemical poisoning unless it's naturally-occurring. Maybe they're afraid they'll get their resources tied up in lawsuits. http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot/20101108/hl_yblog_upshot/scientists-think-bp-oil-is-already-having-toxic-effects-on-gulf-food-chain --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Wendie <wendieo@...> wrote: > > Looks like a bunker to me. > Wendie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ahenney" <alan@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] dead fish ID, please > > > > We need your expertise. Today a bunch of dead fish washed up on the beach > between Cape Henlopen and Rehoboth. > > Most were missing the head and tail. But I suspect several days of > decomposition. > > Most were similar to the one shown in photo #1 below. But there were a > few > like photo #5 and #6. > > Can you identify the fish involved? > > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish1.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish2.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish3.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish4.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish5.JPG > > http://henney.com/weekend02/deadfish6.JPG > > Thanks! > Alan > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51481	From: haecklers	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

I went out of town for 4 days, leaving the care of the fry with my husband (not a fish person) with a page of written instructions. When I returned, both tanks of betta fry looked great - no white spots on any fry! None of the Jack Dempsey fry survived at all, and there were at least 200. :( No bristlenose fry survived, either, but none of the gouramis even showed a spot of ich. I had treated them prophylacticly anyway because they were exposed and I wanted to clear the ich from the tank. I counted 33 fry in the betta tank that I had only previously counted 22 in, (there's always a few - like HALF) that you don't see when they're so small!) but I think that possibly NONE of them died. In the other tank there are still at least 50, out of a spawn of probably over 100. I'm not too sad to see the population cut down, that's a lot of fish to grow out when they each need their own container! Despite how sick they were last week they seem very healthy now. I believe the Kordon Ich Attack does work, even when you can't raise the temperature, but only if the fish are able to fight it off some themselves - why the Jack Dempseys and bristlenose plec's didn't survive. It looks like blackwater extract, which could explain why the betta fry did so well with it. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Oh, no - how sad - the fry are just so fragile. Sorry for your losses. > Clare > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > My 10 gallon fry tank doesn't look so good - a lot of the fry are just covered in white bumps and I can't see how they're still alive, but a few don't have any. I'm hoping when the bumps - cysts, fall off that will be the end of it, that the Kordon's is killing the free-swimming phase. > > > > Unfortunately the ich spread to the Jack Dempsey fry and the last 2 days I've been seeing a few with white bumps on their heads. Yesterday I saw a few dead ones (they mostly float). There are so many it doesn't seem like a great loss but we're hoping 1/4 of them will be Electric Blue Jack Dempseys - (they sell for $50 each at 3") and they're more fragile so I'm worried the dead ones are our Electric Blue fry! > > > > Word to the wise, it didn't occur to me until too late that the microworm cultures I've been feeding from for all the tanks could be a vector of spreading ich. I should have had a separate culture for each tank, instead of feeding from whichever one had the most worms at the time! I hope everyone can learn from my mistakes! > > > > I think all of the bristlenose pleco babies have died. The last time I saw one was 2 days ago. Next time they breed I'll treat the tank for ich preventively! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hurray for you - sounds like you nipped it in the bud! > > > It took about three weeks of treatment for me to rid my 100G tank of ich - the clown loaches were the only fish with spots for the entire time - it was a pain to get rid of, but the w/c's, Kordons and temp raising got 'em through it. > > > Glad to hear that Kordons came through for yet another case of ich - I keep it on hand now JIC - ya never know :-) > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51482	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Plant Question

I am starting two new tanks to add to my existing 29 and 55 gallon tanks. I would like to go back to having them planted. I broke down my heavily planted 55 gallon last year after my knee/leg surgery and gave away all of my live plants. I only kept two for the 29 gallon - stupid, huh? I have been on aquabid, but the plants are soooo expensive! I have a PetsMart and a mom and pop fish store near me, but they are terribly expensive there too. I have never found a fish group near me that is active. I know that when my 55 was heavily planted, I was having to trim my plants quite a bit and found others to take them instead of just throwing them away. I am hoping that somebody here might have extra's that they would not mind sharing with me? None of my tanks have high lighting so those plants don't really work for me. And not to sound too picky (I'm sorry), but I don't want Duckweed - I hate that stuff!LOL! I have no plants to trade, but I would be very willing to pay shipping. I live in Michigan. With my new tank setups, I am using sand covered by gravel along with Florish. Thanks so much for any consideration!! Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51483	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: HOB/Plant Question

I am finally catching up on my digests (work and surgery can cause a crimp in reading emails), and I read about folks that put Pothos, etc. in their HOB. As I have an abundance of Pothos, I thought I would give that a try. But what about the HOB cover? I hate to leave it off because I have cats and dogs and the hair seems to find its way everywhere. I am afraid that it would get into the HOB (along with the dust that seems to abound in my house - LOL!). Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51484	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/7/2011
Subject: Male to Female Ratio

In the past month, I bought one male/one female Molly and one female/one male Platy. They are in an established (for years) 29 gallon lightly planted tank. There are two golden algae eaters, one black tetra and two small danios in there also. The male Molly and the male Platy seem to be bugging the females - following them around, etc. Should I purchase more females? Years ago when I had Guppies, I did a three females to one male ratio - should I be doing this also with the Molly and the Platy? I am starting up a 10 gallon (hopefully planted) tank tonight for future use of any babies that may be produced. My boyfriend has five tanks so finding room for any babies should not be a problem. Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51485	From: Melani	Date: 6/8/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio

that would be a good idea I think When I had them I did two females to one male melani --- On Tue, 6/7/11, PAULA BROWN <paulabrown4480@...> wrote: From: PAULA BROWN <paulabrown4480@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Male to Female Ratio To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, June 7, 2011, 3:19 PM   In the past month, I bought one male/one female Molly and one female/one male Platy. They are in an established (for years) 29 gallon lightly planted tank. There are two golden algae eaters, one black tetra and two small danios in there also. The male Molly and the male Platy seem to be bugging the females - following them around, etc. Should I purchase more females? Years ago when I had Guppies, I did a three females to one male ratio - should I be doing this also with the Molly and the Platy? I am starting up a 10 gallon (hopefully planted) tank tonight for future use of any babies that may be produced. My boyfriend has five tanks so finding room for any babies should not be a problem. Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51486	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/8/2011
Subject: Re: Mystery of the dead bristlenose plecos

Good news about the fry! i really liked the Kordon's & it will be my first line of defense should ich raise it's ugly little bumps again LOL Good luck growing all those babies out :-) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I went out of town for 4 days, leaving the care of the fry with my husband (not a fish person) with a page of written instructions. When I returned, both tanks of betta fry looked great - no white spots on any fry! None of the Jack Dempsey fry survived at all, and there were at least 200. :( > > No bristlenose fry survived, either, but none of the gouramis even showed a spot of ich. I had treated them prophylacticly anyway because they were exposed and I wanted to clear the ich from the tank. > > I counted 33 fry in the betta tank that I had only previously counted 22 in, (there's always a few - like HALF) that you don't see when they're so small!) but I think that possibly NONE of them died. In the other tank there are still at least 50, out of a spawn of probably over 100. I'm not too sad to see the population cut down, that's a lot of fish to grow out when they each need their own container! Despite how sick they were last week they seem very healthy now. > > I believe the Kordon Ich Attack does work, even when you can't raise the temperature, but only if the fish are able to fight it off some themselves - why the Jack Dempseys and bristlenose plec's didn't survive. It looks like blackwater extract, which could explain why the betta fry did so well with it. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Oh, no - how sad - the fry are just so fragile. Sorry for your losses. > > Clare > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > My 10 gallon fry tank doesn't look so good - a lot of the fry are just covered in white bumps and I can't see how they're still alive, but a few don't have any. I'm hoping when the bumps - cysts, fall off that will be the end of it, that the Kordon's is killing the free-swimming phase. > > > > > > Unfortunately the ich spread to the Jack Dempsey fry and the last 2 days I've been seeing a few with white bumps on their heads. Yesterday I saw a few dead ones (they mostly float). There are so many it doesn't seem like a great loss but we're hoping 1/4 of them will be Electric Blue Jack Dempseys - (they sell for $50 each at 3") and they're more fragile so I'm worried the dead ones are our Electric Blue fry! > > > > > > Word to the wise, it didn't occur to me until too late that the microworm cultures I've been feeding from for all the tanks could be a vector of spreading ich. I should have had a separate culture for each tank, instead of feeding from whichever one had the most worms at the time! I hope everyone can learn from my mistakes! > > > > > > I think all of the bristlenose pleco babies have died. The last time I saw one was 2 days ago. Next time they breed I'll treat the tank for ich preventively! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hurray for you - sounds like you nipped it in the bud! > > > > It took about three weeks of treatment for me to rid my 100G tank of ich - the clown loaches were the only fish with spots for the entire time - it was a pain to get rid of, but the w/c's, Kordons and temp raising got 'em through it. > > > > Glad to hear that Kordons came through for yet another case of ich - I keep it on hand now JIC - ya never know :-) > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51487	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: male to male ratio

Do you think you have enough hiding places for your fry? The egglayers will definitely eat any and all fry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51488	From: ScottW	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: pictus catfish deaths

I have a 35 gal hex tank with four angels and 3 pictus catfish. Well I had the 3 pictus catfish. The tank has been setup for about a year and I have not had any problems with it until recently. I added new gravel and plants. There is a strange black mark behind one of the angels' eyes so I added QuICK Cure. The Catfish did not seem to have any bad effects from the QuICK Cure but the new gravel seemed to throw them for a loop. All three died a few days after I added the gravel. Any thoughts about why? ScottW

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51489	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

How did you prepare your gravel before you put it in there? ________________________________ From: ScottW <kissinmera@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 9, 2011 11:28 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] pictus catfish deaths   I have a 35 gal hex tank with four angels and 3 pictus catfish. Well I had the 3 pictus catfish. The tank has been setup for about a year and I have not had any problems with it until recently. I added new gravel and plants. There is a strange black mark behind one of the angels' eyes so I added QuICK Cure. The Catfish did not seem to have any bad effects from the QuICK Cure but the new gravel seemed to throw them for a loop. All three died a few days after I added the gravel. Any thoughts about why? ScottW [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51490	From: haecklers	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

I'm wondering if you scrubbed out the whole tank when you changed the gravel and created an ammonia spike by removing too much denitrifying bacteria at once. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have a 35 gal hex tank with four angels and 3 pictus catfish. Well I had the 3 pictus catfish. The tank has been setup for about a year and I have not had any problems with it until recently. I added new gravel and plants. There is a strange black mark behind one of the angels' eyes so I added QuICK Cure. The Catfish did not seem to have any bad effects from the QuICK Cure but the new gravel seemed to throw them for a loop. All three died a few days after I added the gravel. Any thoughts about why? > > ScottW >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51491	From: moya a	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: buying a large aquarium?

Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one from? Thanks! moya

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51492	From: Bill	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

I've bought a dozen tanks off CL... Never had a problem. Bill in Va. Too bad your so far away.. Ive a 155 fresh, 235 salt, 2 90's salt and a 110 salt on the market. All with sumps/uv/lighting/stand/canopy.. etc. Bill ________________________________ From: moya a <moyaalysia@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 7:11:21 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one from? Thanks! moya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51493	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one from? Thanks! moya ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51494	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

Hi Moya, Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to be doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in it. When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a gun sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could have glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access holes. What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? John*<o)))< * On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > Dora > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy > one > from? Thanks! > > moya > > ------------------------------------ > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51495	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

We will need to know how to prepared and added the new gravel to the tank. Did you remove the old gravel first (and fish/plants/etc) then clean the tank and add the new gravel? Or did you add the new gravel on top of the old gravel? I did want to point out that a 35 gallon hex is too small for 3 pictus catfish, they get rather large when full grown and need lots of swimming room (so they need a long tank, not a tall tank). I wouldn't keep them in anything smaller than a 75 gallon minimum, preferably larger. Amber On 6/9/2011 10:28 AM, ScottW wrote: > > I have a 35 gal hex tank with four angels and 3 pictus catfish. Well I > had the 3 pictus catfish. The tank has been setup for about a year and > I have not had any problems with it until recently. I added new gravel > and plants. There is a strange black mark behind one of the angels' > eyes so I added QuICK Cure. The Catfish did not seem to have any bad > effects from the QuICK Cure but the new gravel seemed to throw them > for a loop. All three died a few days after I added the gravel. Any > thoughts about why? > > ScottW > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51496	From: Lisa	Date: 6/9/2011
Subject: All are going

All my goldies are dieing. I think it's ammonia poisoning, or burns or something. Cause all their fins and scales are dissapearing. I just lost my black moor last night. With what can only be discribed as 'rust' on it's body But to be honest. I'm growing bored with the aquarium now. So when they all go, i'm going to drain the tank and maybe use it for something else down the track. There's only 2 left. A red cap, and an orange fantail I have to thank this group. You have provided me with great support when i needed it. But once they both go, i'll be leaving the group. Regards Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51497	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

yes he has, but now that he has bought his first house he has a big wall dedicated to his 120 gallon fish tank lol! I told him to go smaller but according to him it won't look right on that wall if it is any less than 120 hahahaha. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > Dora > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one > from? Thanks! > > moya > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51498	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

Thanks for the advice. I will let him know. I am not sure what he plans on keeping. I have had live bearers in the past but I never had anything bigger than 40 or 50 gallons. I also had cichlids(not sure of spelling) once and an angel fish. However, I always loved my red sword tails and guppies and neon fish. I think that if he gets a big tank he should get some colorful fish that almost look like saltwater fish. He does NOT want a saltwater tank. Any suggestions as to what kinds of fish? Maybe I should do another post for that, but I was waiting until after we get the tank first. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Moya, > > Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a > completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to be > doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a > couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without > flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in it. > When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a gun > sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. > > Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with > thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could have > glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have > strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral > construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access holes. > > What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon > > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > > > Dora > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This > > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas > > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something > > > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place > > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy > > one > > from? Thanks! > > > > moya > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51499	From: moya a	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

Wow, I really wish we lived closer! thanks!! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've bought a dozen tanks off CL... Never had a problem. Bill in Va. Too bad > your so far away.. Ive a 155 fresh, 235 salt, 2 90's salt and a 110 salt on the > market. All with sumps/uv/lighting/stand/canopy.. etc. Bill > > > > ________________________________ > From: moya a <moyaalysia@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 7:11:21 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This will > be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas county. I > was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something with a leak. > Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place or where to go. > Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one from? Thanks! > > moya > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51500	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

I had a 72” cichlid tank with mbuna from Lake Malawi, it was great. Can’t beat the colors. How hard is your tap water, LOL? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of moya a Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 10:20 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? Thanks for the advice. I will let him know. I am not sure what he plans on keeping. I have had live bearers in the past but I never had anything bigger than 40 or 50 gallons. I also had cichlids(not sure of spelling) once and an angel fish. However, I always loved my red sword tails and guppies and neon fish. I think that if he gets a big tank he should get some colorful fish that almost look like saltwater fish. He does NOT want a saltwater tank. Any suggestions as to what kinds of fish? Maybe I should do another post for that, but I was waiting until after we get the tank first. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Moya, > > Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a > completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to be > doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a > couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without > flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in it. > When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a gun > sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. > > Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with > thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could have > glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have > strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral > construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access holes. > > What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon > > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > > > Dora > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This > > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas > > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something > > > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place > > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy > > one > > from? Thanks! > > > > moya > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option where > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51501	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

I guess he has checked the flooring underneath where the tank is going to sit? If it's a solid floor-concrete etc-then no problem but if there is underfloor space or it is on an upper floor it needs to be against a load-bearing wall & at right angles to the underfloor joists & preferably going across as many joists as possible to spread the weight, 120 gallons is not light! John*<o)))< * On 11 June 2011 16:20, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > I had a 72� cichlid tank with mbuna from Lake Malawi, it was great. Can�t > beat the colors. How hard is your tap water, LOL? > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of moya a > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 10:20 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? > > > Thanks for the advice. I will let him know. I am not sure what he plans on > keeping. I have had live bearers in the past but I never had anything > bigger > than 40 or 50 gallons. I also had cichlids(not sure of spelling) once and > an > angel fish. However, I always loved my red sword tails and guppies and neon > fish. I think that if he gets a big tank he should get some colorful fish > that almost look like saltwater fish. He does NOT want a saltwater tank. > Any > suggestions as to what kinds of fish? Maybe I should do another post for > that, but I was waiting until after we get the tank first. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Moya, > > > > Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a > > completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to > be > > doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a > > couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without > > flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in > it. > > When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a > gun > > sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. > > > > Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with > > thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could > have > > glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have > > strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral > > construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access holes. > > > > What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 > gallon > > > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. > This > > > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in > Pinellas > > > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting > something > > > > > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best > place > > > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to > buy > > > one > > > from? Thanks! > > > > > > moya > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , > .���`�..><((((�> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51502	From: Scott Westhoff	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

Well from your questions, I can tell I did everything wrong.  I just poured twenty gallons of gravel on top of my existing gravel just after getting it home.  I had a very thin layer of gravel there in the first place.  I did not rinse the gravel or anything.  I did take the plants out that I had in there.  I replanted the plants without their pots after I got the gravel in.  So far the angels seem happy with the changes.  I also added two plants when I added the new gravel.   Thanks, Scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51503	From: Bill	Date: 6/11/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

A 120 gallon tank should come in a bit over 1/2 ton. A refrigerator, with probably less than 1/2 the foot print, approaches that load and exceeds the per sq. ft. load...I've never encountered a problem with load weights and I've gone up to 250G.... Typically, you'll have 4 - 6 contact points for that 1000 pounds of weight. The dispersal of that load will radiate out a bit ... a woman in highheels in theory will exert a bigger load than that fish tank!.. Bill ----- Original Message ---- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, June 11, 2011 6:55:47 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? I guess he has checked the flooring underneath where the tank is going to sit? If it's a solid floor-concrete etc-then no problem but if there is underfloor space or it is on an upper floor it needs to be against a load-bearing wall & at right angles to the underfloor joists & preferably going across as many joists as possible to spread the weight, 120 gallons is not light! John*<o)))< * On 11 June 2011 16:20, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > I had a 72” cichlid tank with mbuna from Lake Malawi, it was great. Can’t > beat the colors. How hard is your tap water, LOL? > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of moya a > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 10:20 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? > > > Thanks for the advice. I will let him know. I am not sure what he plans on > keeping. I have had live bearers in the past but I never had anything > bigger > than 40 or 50 gallons. I also had cichlids(not sure of spelling) once and > an > angel fish. However, I always loved my red sword tails and guppies and neon > fish. I think that if he gets a big tank he should get some colorful fish > that almost look like saltwater fish. He does NOT want a saltwater tank. > Any > suggestions as to what kinds of fish? Maybe I should do another post for > that, but I was waiting until after we get the tank first. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Moya, > > > > Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a > > completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to > be > > doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a > > couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without > > flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in > it. > > When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a > gun > > sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. > > > > Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with > > thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could > have > > glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have > > strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral > > construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access holes. > > > > What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 > gallon > > > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. > This > > > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in > Pinellas > > > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting > something > > > > > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best > place > > > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to > buy > > > one > > > from? Thanks! > > > > > > moya > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51504	From: haecklers	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

I don't think you did everything wrong - sounds like you did better than what I was afraid of - did the water cloud up much? If not then it's probably not from the gravel, imho! They say to rinse it but it's to get rid of dust that can cloud the water, and that's only temporary anyway - there have been times I forgot to rinse the gravel and usually no harm is done from that. Disturbing the whole tank by removing the other gravel and a thorough cleaning would have been much worse, because you would have messed with your biological filter, which is covering all the surfaces. One pet store I go to puts sick fish in with the plants. You'd think most pet stores would know better, but maybe something rode in on your plants that affected the pictus? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Scott Westhoff <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > Well from your questions, I can tell I did everything wrong.  I just poured twenty gallons of gravel on top of my existing gravel just after getting it home.  I had a very thin layer of gravel there in the first place.  I did not rinse the gravel or anything.  I did take the plants out that I had in there.  I replanted the plants without their pots after I got the gravel in.  So far the angels seem happy with the changes.  I also added two plants when I added the new gravel.   > > Thanks, > > Scott > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51505	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

Agreed, the total gallonage of my system is 126 [UK] & it is upstairs. The tank is 8 feet long but only 20" square section, next to a load bearing wall & crosses 6 joists. The cabinet is a box rather than it having legs so the point of contact with my floor is continuous. John<o)))< On 12 June 2011 04:17, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > A 120 gallon tank should come in a bit over 1/2 ton. A refrigerator, with > probably less than 1/2 the foot print, approaches that load and exceeds the > per > sq. ft. load...I've never encountered a problem with load weights and I've > gone > up to 250G.... Typically, you'll have 4 - 6 contact points for that 1000 > pounds > of weight. The dispersal of that load will radiate out a bit ... a woman in > > highheels in theory will exert a bigger load than that fish tank!.. Bill > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, June 11, 2011 6:55:47 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? > > I guess he has checked the flooring underneath where the tank is going to > sit? If it's a solid floor-concrete etc-then no problem > but if there is underfloor space or it is on an upper floor it needs to be > against a load-bearing wall & at right angles to the underfloor joists & > preferably going across as many joists as possible to spread the weight, > 120 > gallons is not light! > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 11 June 2011 16:20, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > > > > I had a 72” cichlid tank with mbuna from Lake Malawi, it was great. Can’t > > beat the colors. How hard is your tap water, LOL? > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > Behalf Of moya a > > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 10:20 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? > > > > > > Thanks for the advice. I will let him know. I am not sure what he plans > on > > keeping. I have had live bearers in the past but I never had anything > > bigger > > than 40 or 50 gallons. I also had cichlids(not sure of spelling) once and > > an > > angel fish. However, I always loved my red sword tails and guppies and > neon > > fish. I think that if he gets a big tank he should get some colorful fish > > that almost look like saltwater fish. He does NOT want a saltwater tank. > > Any > > suggestions as to what kinds of fish? Maybe I should do another post for > > that, but I was waiting until after we get the tank first. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com > > > > , > > > > SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Moya, > > > > > > Shouldn't be any problem buying off Craigslist or even trying for a > > > completely free one via your local Freecycle group. What you do need to > > be > > > doing if you find one is to test fill it outside & leave it full for a > > > couple of days & then any leaks or other problems will appear without > > > flooding your house or endangering any livestock you plan on putting in > > it. > > > When it is full, sight along the top edges like you are looking down a > > gun > > > sight to make sure the sides do not bulge outwards. > > > > > > Something else to be aware of-make sure it really is a fish tank with > > > thicker glass, 6mm+ & not a reptile/small mammal vivarium which could > > have > > > glass as thin as 4mm. A tank of any large size for water will also have > > > strengthening struts across the top or else it will be an integral > > > construction with the top as the sixth side of the box with access > holes. > > > > > > What type[s] of fish are you looking to keep? > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 10 June 2011 00:43, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 > > gallon > > > > would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. > > > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? > > > > > > > > Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. > > This > > > > will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in > > Pinellas > > > > county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting > > something > > > > > > > > with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best > > place > > > > or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to > > buy > > > > one > > > > from? Thanks! > > > > > > > > moya > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important > > to > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT > > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, > > you > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" > on > > the > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > > > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > > > where > > > > > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the > reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> > i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can > change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > > page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you > will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! > Groups Links > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51506	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

oooh...bill watch yourself;-)dangerous ground to tread there LOL! erika "does this tank make me look fat?" newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > A 120 gallon tank should come in a bit over 1/2 ton. A refrigerator, with > probably less than 1/2 the foot print, approaches that load and exceeds the per > sq. ft. load...I've never encountered a problem with load weights and I've gone > up to 250G.... Typically, you'll have 4 - 6 contact points for that 1000 pounds > of weight. The dispersal of that load will radiate out a bit ... a woman in > highheels in theory will exert a bigger load than that fish tank!.. Bill >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51507	From: Bill	Date: 6/12/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

I was a bit apprehensive about that analogy!... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: erika77andnewton91 <e.isme@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 12, 2011 8:19:51 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: buying a large aquarium? oooh...bill watch yourself;-)dangerous ground to tread there LOL! erika "does this tank make me look fat?" newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > A 120 gallon tank should come in a bit over 1/2 ton. A refrigerator, with > probably less than 1/2 the foot print, approaches that load and exceeds the per > > sq. ft. load...I've never encountered a problem with load weights and I've gone > > up to 250G.... Typically, you'll have 4 - 6 contact points for that 1000 pounds > > of weight. The dispersal of that load will radiate out a bit ... a woman in > highheels in theory will exert a bigger load than that fish tank!.. Bill > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51508	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??

Has anyone else mixed kinds of fry and found the growth-retarding hormones the fry give off only affect the fry of the same species? I've put a single danio fry in with gouramis and it grew like it was the only fish in the tank. I put two gourami fry in with 50 or so betta fry and they're out-growing the bettas by leaps and bounds. Same thing with guppy fry - a single guppy fry with fry of another kind don't get the same kind of inhibition of growth as the other fry do. I read it's good to put similar-sized guppy fry in with betta fry (when they get that big) to teach them to eat non-live foods, so that's what got me to try it (it didn't work the other fry ignored what the guppy fry was eating!). It makes it seem to me that mixing compatible kinds of fry would be better than raising tanks of different kinds all over the place (like I have!)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51509	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??

I think different fry grow at different speeds. I've definitely noticed it with my BN pleco's, the fry grow VERY slow compared to all other fry I've had in my tanks. So it might not be the growth hormones you're seeing, but rather just their natural differences in growth. Amber On 6/14/2011 5:32 AM, haecklers wrote: > > Has anyone else mixed kinds of fry and found the growth-retarding > hormones the fry give off only affect the fry of the same species? > > I've put a single danio fry in with gouramis and it grew like it was > the only fish in the tank. > > I put two gourami fry in with 50 or so betta fry and they're > out-growing the bettas by leaps and bounds. > > Same thing with guppy fry - a single guppy fry with fry of another > kind don't get the same kind of inhibition of growth as the other fry do. > > I read it's good to put similar-sized guppy fry in with betta fry > (when they get that big) to teach them to eat non-live foods, so > that's what got me to try it (it didn't work the other fry ignored > what the guppy fry was eating!). > > It makes it seem to me that mixing compatible kinds of fry would be > better than raising tanks of different kinds all over the place (like > I have!) > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51510	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??

We've not yet successfully raised a whole spawn of them but the few we did save grew very quickly. They were alone in the tank with other kinds of fish (kuhli loaches and red cherry shrimp) so there was no competition for food or other bristlenose plecos giving off growth suppressing hormones. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I think different fry grow at different speeds. I've definitely noticed > it with my BN pleco's, the fry grow VERY slow compared to all other fry > I've had in my tanks. So it might not be the growth hormones you're > seeing, but rather just their natural differences in growth. > > Amber > > On 6/14/2011 5:32 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > Has anyone else mixed kinds of fry and found the growth-retarding > > hormones the fry give off only affect the fry of the same species? > > > > I've put a single danio fry in with gouramis and it grew like it was > > the only fish in the tank. > > > > I put two gourami fry in with 50 or so betta fry and they're > > out-growing the bettas by leaps and bounds. > > > > Same thing with guppy fry - a single guppy fry with fry of another > > kind don't get the same kind of inhibition of growth as the other fry do. > > > > I read it's good to put similar-sized guppy fry in with betta fry > > (when they get that big) to teach them to eat non-live foods, so > > that's what got me to try it (it didn't work the other fry ignored > > what the guppy fry was eating!). > > > > It makes it seem to me that mixing compatible kinds of fry would be > > better than raising tanks of different kinds all over the place (like > > I have!) > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51511	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??

Hi, Not heard anything about this before & I have no biology training but on the face of it, it makes perfect sense that the growth hormone from one species would only affect that species. I will be interested to hear what other say about this. John*<o)))< * On 14 June 2011 14:32, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > Has anyone else mixed kinds of fry and found the growth-retarding hormones > the fry give off only affect the fry of the same species? > > I've put a single danio fry in with gouramis and it grew like it was the > only fish in the tank. > > I put two gourami fry in with 50 or so betta fry and they're out-growing > the bettas by leaps and bounds. > > Same thing with guppy fry - a single guppy fry with fry of another kind > don't get the same kind of inhibition of growth as the other fry do. > > I read it's good to put similar-sized guppy fry in with betta fry (when > they get that big) to teach them to eat non-live foods, so that's what got > me to try it (it didn't work the other fry ignored what the guppy fry was > eating!). > > It makes it seem to me that mixing compatible kinds of fry would be better > than raising tanks of different kinds all over the place (like I have!) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51512	From: ScottW	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

Thanks, I am glad I didn't get it wrong. The water did not cloud up. The plants were in with guppies at the store. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I don't think you did everything wrong - sounds like you did better than what I was afraid of - did the water cloud up much? If not then it's probably not from the gravel, imho! They say to rinse it but it's to get rid of dust that can cloud the water, and that's only temporary anyway - there have been times I forgot to rinse the gravel and usually no harm is done from that. > > Disturbing the whole tank by removing the other gravel and a thorough cleaning would have been much worse, because you would have messed with your biological filter, which is covering all the surfaces. > > One pet store I go to puts sick fish in with the plants. You'd think most pet stores would know better, but maybe something rode in on your plants that affected the pictus? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Scott Westhoff <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > Well from your questions, I can tell I did everything wrong.  I just poured twenty gallons of gravel on top of my existing gravel just after getting it home.  I had a very thin layer of gravel there in the first place.  I did not rinse the gravel or anything.  I did take the plants out that I had in there.  I replanted the plants without their pots after I got the gravel in.  So far the angels seem happy with the changes.  I also added two plants when I added the new gravel.   > > > > Thanks, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51513	From: haecklers	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Re: pictus catfish deaths

Pet store guppies are notorious disease-carriers - they're so plentiful they just don't take good care of them! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > Thanks, I am glad I didn't get it wrong. The water did not cloud up. The plants were in with guppies at the store. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I don't think you did everything wrong - sounds like you did better than what I was afraid of - did the water cloud up much? If not then it's probably not from the gravel, imho! They say to rinse it but it's to get rid of dust that can cloud the water, and that's only temporary anyway - there have been times I forgot to rinse the gravel and usually no harm is done from that. > > > > Disturbing the whole tank by removing the other gravel and a thorough cleaning would have been much worse, because you would have messed with your biological filter, which is covering all the surfaces. > > > > One pet store I go to puts sick fish in with the plants. You'd think most pet stores would know better, but maybe something rode in on your plants that affected the pictus? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Scott Westhoff <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > > > Well from your questions, I can tell I did everything wrong.  I just poured twenty gallons of gravel on top of my existing gravel just after getting it home.  I had a very thin layer of gravel there in the first place.  I did not rinse the gravel or anything.  I did take the plants out that I had in there.  I replanted the plants without their pots after I got the gravel in.  So far the angels seem happy with the changes.  I also added two plants when I added the new gravel.   > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51514	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/14/2011
Subject: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?

A local aquarium society member kindly gave me a 20-gal 24" wide x 24" tall tank (x 12") today, and the selection of fish needs some changes to fit the new tank. I needed a larger tank because it is just too hard to keep the water balanced and healthy in a small tank. This one will take the same amount of space on the shelf, it is just taller, so that's the easiest way to add volume, but there will be all this empty upper area..... My Java fern start will have room to get really tall though, and there will be room for frogbit. What is in the 10 gallon that will move to the new tank is two African frogs, 3 each Glowlight tetras, and von Rio tetras, plus 2 small hatchet fish that don't have pretty colors or patterns (plus they are bad citizens, malevolent little thugs, because they keep my beautiful tetras and funny frogs anxious and wanting to hide, even though the tank was set up FOR them and the hatchet fish were really just fillers). Are hatchet fish inclined to be aggressive to smaller fish? What I saw online said normally not, but these definitely don't even like each other, much less anyone smaller. If hatchet fish WILL be calm and non-aggressive in a 2x bigger tank, are there pretty, boldly patterned hatchet fish commonly available, like the ones I saw online when looking for surface fish? If so, where should I look? The ones that blew my socks off were marbled with really bold patterns. Zowie! I would drive up to an hour each way to get something that special. Or even, if shipped fish tend to arrive healthy, might be willing to buy online. If I get new ones together (from the same hatch), is there a chance they might get along better with each other in a much taller tank, and not harass the tetras and frogs? It isn't fair to keep a bully, much less two of them. They can be given away or left alone in the old 10-gal. If there aren't any heavily marbled hatchet fish to be found locally (or they aren't the best choice to get along), what other especially attractive, colorful medium or small community fish would be good surface or upper mid-level dwellers in a 20-gal tall with medium sized tetras in the bottom? The color scheme was red-orange, but pink, gold, silver, or black might work too. I got a tank in the first place because I wanted lots of red-orange tetras and some frogs. I like bold patterns and most but not all bold colors (have synesthesia and am bothered by yellow). Not a fan of gouramis and think even a dwarf gourami would be too big compared to the others, hoping there are some other good options. I would like the surface fish to be easy care, and to all get along, can't stand fighters and nippers. Small to medium sized fish that don't grow into monsters would also be good. Also, what is good for eating fluffy brown algae on the bottom, without eating plants? Thanks for your ideas! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51515	From: haecklers	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?

Some ghost shrimp might eat the fluffy brown stuff from the bottom. Or you could look for some acute bladder snails, which are good citizens normally. If you want similar-sized fish to what you have, I'd say maybe some guppies. If you get only males you won't have babies, but be sure to quarantine them first (a fish bowl or your old tank will do). Guppies often spend time near the top, but not always, it depends on what else is in the tank. Your tank is the right size for a female betta, too, if you see a nice one. Keep in mind they grow a lot bigger than the babies you see in the pet stores, mine are around 3". While they'll eat fry that fit in their mouths (like baby guppies) they're otherwise not very aggressive and tend to mind their own business unless you put them with other bettas. These days you can get pretty much any color you want. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)" <mother@...> wrote: > > A local aquarium society member kindly gave me a 20-gal 24" wide x 24" > tall tank (x 12") today, and the selection of fish needs some changes > to fit the new tank. > > I needed a larger tank because it is just too hard to keep the water > balanced and healthy in a small tank. This one will take the same > amount of space on the shelf, it is just taller, so that's the easiest > way to add volume, but there will be all this empty upper area..... > My Java fern start will have room to get really tall though, and there > will be room for frogbit. > > What is in the 10 gallon that will move to the new tank is two African > frogs, 3 each Glowlight tetras, and von Rio tetras, plus 2 small > hatchet fish that don't have pretty colors or patterns (plus they are > bad citizens, malevolent little thugs, because they keep my beautiful > tetras and funny frogs anxious and wanting to hide, even though the > tank was set up FOR them and the hatchet fish were really just > fillers). > > Are hatchet fish inclined to be aggressive to smaller fish? What I > saw online said normally not, but these definitely don't even like > each other, much less anyone smaller. > > If hatchet fish WILL be calm and non-aggressive in a 2x bigger tank, > are there pretty, boldly patterned hatchet fish commonly available, > like the ones I saw online when looking for surface fish? > > If so, where should I look? The ones that blew my socks off were > marbled with really bold patterns. Zowie! I would drive up to an > hour each way to get something that special. Or even, if shipped fish > tend to arrive healthy, might be willing to buy online. > > If I get new ones together (from the same hatch), is there a chance > they might get along better with each other in a much taller tank, and > not harass the tetras and frogs? It isn't fair to keep a bully, much > less two of them. They can be given away or left alone in the old > 10-gal. > > If there aren't any heavily marbled hatchet fish to be found locally > (or they aren't the best choice to get along), what other especially > attractive, colorful medium or small community fish would be good > surface or upper mid-level dwellers in a 20-gal tall with medium sized > tetras in the bottom? > > The color scheme was red-orange, but pink, gold, silver, or black > might work too. I got a tank in the first place because I wanted lots > of red-orange tetras and some frogs. > > I like bold patterns and most but not all bold colors (have > synesthesia and am bothered by yellow). Not a fan of gouramis and > think even a dwarf gourami would be too big compared to the others, > hoping there are some other good options. > > I would like the surface fish to be easy care, and to all get along, > can't stand fighters and nippers. Small to medium sized fish that > don't grow into monsters would also be good. > > Also, what is good for eating fluffy brown algae on the bottom, > without eating plants? > > Thanks for your ideas! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51516	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?

I have never heard of any hatchetfish being aggressive, but this trait can appear in many otherwise-peaceful shoaling fish when they are kept in too small a group. A recent scientific study, the first as far as I know, actually proved that shoaling fish--characins, rasbora, barb, danio, angelfish, discus, loaches, corys, etc--that were kept in groups less than 5 showed a marked increase in aggressive behaviour towards themselves and other fish species, while those in larger groups in otherwise identical surroundings did not. This is due to the stress of being in a very un-natural situation. Similar results occur when fish are maintained in too small a space. The sheer frustration causes the fish to "lash out" the only way it can. I have maintained all hatchet species in the Carnegiella genus for many years. These are my particular favourites, and include the attractive marble hatchets (Carnegiella strigata) which has two pattern forms once thought to be distinct species but now considered a polymorphic species, meaning one species with geographically-distinct variants. The plainer Black-winged Hatchetfish, Carnegiella marthae, and it's near-identical cousin Carnegiella schereri, are also in this group and make lovely aquarium surface fish. And last in this genus is Carnegiella myersi, the Pygmy Hatchetfish, which is the smallest of all the known hatchets and very delicate and sensitive by comparison to the others. A group of no less than 6 of any of these species, and preferably more, is mandatory or they will be under stress, and being wild caught they require very soft, acidic water. The marbles are tank-raised and will adapt to slightly basic water unless you have wild-caught fish which then must have soft, acidic water. The larger species such as the Silver Hatchet (Gasteropelecus sternicla) which is often available require identical care, but these do get larger. This may be the species you have, and a 10g is not suitable for them, plus they also need a group. Shoaling fish live in groups in nature, often numbering in the hundreds. "Safety in numbers" is part of this, along with the greater success of finding food. But it goes well beyond this. Many species have a distinct social structure within the group. Loaches are highly developed in this, as are angelfish and discus. And many characins seem to be as well. They sometimes develop a "pecking order", they have roles in "play" and what I like to term "sparring", something that is highly evident in many characins such as the pencilfish and hatchetfish. And of course spawning often begins with group activities probably connected to their selection of suitable mates. In your new 24-inch tank, you could have a group of 8-9 marble hatchets and they would be fine. I have a group of 20 wild-caught marbles of both forms in my 33g, and their regular interaction in smaller groups within each form [this in itself is suggestive] with circling, sparring, chasing, jumping together, is indeed fascinating to observe. It is a great joy and reward to see fish behaving as they would naturally, showing they are "happy" in their surroundings. At least half the surface should have floating plants for added security. An excellent surface fish with peaceful tankmates. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)" <mother@...> wrote: > > A local aquarium society member kindly gave me a 20-gal 24" wide x 24" > tall tank (x 12") today, and the selection of fish needs some changes > to fit the new tank. > > I needed a larger tank because it is just too hard to keep the water > balanced and healthy in a small tank. This one will take the same > amount of space on the shelf, it is just taller, so that's the easiest > way to add volume, but there will be all this empty upper area..... > My Java fern start will have room to get really tall though, and there > will be room for frogbit. > > What is in the 10 gallon that will move to the new tank is two African > frogs, 3 each Glowlight tetras, and von Rio tetras, plus 2 small > hatchet fish that don't have pretty colors or patterns (plus they are > bad citizens, malevolent little thugs, because they keep my beautiful > tetras and funny frogs anxious and wanting to hide, even though the > tank was set up FOR them and the hatchet fish were really just > fillers). > > Are hatchet fish inclined to be aggressive to smaller fish? What I > saw online said normally not, but these definitely don't even like > each other, much less anyone smaller. > > If hatchet fish WILL be calm and non-aggressive in a 2x bigger tank, > are there pretty, boldly patterned hatchet fish commonly available, > like the ones I saw online when looking for surface fish? > > If so, where should I look? The ones that blew my socks off were > marbled with really bold patterns. Zowie! I would drive up to an > hour each way to get something that special. Or even, if shipped fish > tend to arrive healthy, might be willing to buy online. > > If I get new ones together (from the same hatch), is there a chance > they might get along better with each other in a much taller tank, and > not harass the tetras and frogs? It isn't fair to keep a bully, much > less two of them. They can be given away or left alone in the old > 10-gal. > > If there aren't any heavily marbled hatchet fish to be found locally > (or they aren't the best choice to get along), what other especially > attractive, colorful medium or small community fish would be good > surface or upper mid-level dwellers in a 20-gal tall with medium sized > tetras in the bottom? > > The color scheme was red-orange, but pink, gold, silver, or black > might work too. I got a tank in the first place because I wanted lots > of red-orange tetras and some frogs. > > I like bold patterns and most but not all bold colors (have > synesthesia and am bothered by yellow). Not a fan of gouramis and > think even a dwarf gourami would be too big compared to the others, > hoping there are some other good options. > > I would like the surface fish to be easy care, and to all get along, > can't stand fighters and nippers. Small to medium sized fish that > don't grow into monsters would also be good. > > Also, what is good for eating fluffy brown algae on the bottom, > without eating plants? > > Thanks for your ideas! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51517	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard floors than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean bare floor? Thoughts? ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51518	From: haecklers	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can be weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming upside down under me?" My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The sand tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more attractive than just a bare tank. I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. I've been really happy with that. I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it might clog a pump type filter if you try that! If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's gills. Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking clean. Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a great place for new fry to find food. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard floors than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean bare floor? > > Thoughts? > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51519	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Keep the gravel and add plants!.. If done properly, kept in balance, in theory, a tank can almost be self-contained with only water replenishment. When you state you "greater bio-load".. what are you keeping? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 3:56:51 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard floors than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean bare floor? Thoughts? ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51520	From: William M	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Growth-retarding hormones species-specific??

If you do your regular water changes, the growth inhibiting hormones will not be an issue and the fry will grow at a faster growth rate than if y0u do not do your regular water changes. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Not heard anything about this before & I have no biology training but on > the face of it, it makes perfect sense that the growth hormone from one > species would only affect that species. I will be interested to hear what > other say about this. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 14 June 2011 14:32, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Has anyone else mixed kinds of fry and found the growth-retarding hormones > > the fry give off only affect the fry of the same species? > > > > I've put a single danio fry in with gouramis and it grew like it was the > > only fish in the tank. > > > > I put two gourami fry in with 50 or so betta fry and they're out-growing > > the bettas by leaps and bounds. > > > > Same thing with guppy fry - a single guppy fry with fry of another kind > > don't get the same kind of inhibition of growth as the other fry do. > > > > I read it's good to put similar-sized guppy fry in with betta fry (when > > they get that big) to teach them to eat non-live foods, so that's what got > > me to try it (it didn't work the other fry ignored what the guppy fry was > > eating!). > > > > It makes it seem to me that mixing compatible kinds of fry would be better > > than raising tanks of different kinds all over the place (like I have!) > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51521	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. I use Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of .45 - .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does in a pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the other hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that is a BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting down an 1 or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches then the sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a temp of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill you can as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a massive phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the soil - sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can be weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming upside down under me?" My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The sand tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more attractive than just a bare tank. I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. I've been really happy with that. I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it might clog a pump type filter if you try that! If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's gills. Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking clean. Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a great place for new fry to find food. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard floors >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean bare >floor? > > Thoughts? > ~Kai > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51522	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS plant eaters so live plants are not feasible. My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it gets all the "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't imagine how I'd keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie and other stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. I use > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of .45 - > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does in a > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the other > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that is a > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting down an 1 > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches then the > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a temp > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill you can > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a massive > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the soil - > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can be > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming > upside down under me?" > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The sand > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more > attractive than just a bare tank. > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. > I've been really happy with that. > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it might > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's gills. > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking > clean. > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a > great place for new fry to find food. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard floors > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean bare > >floor? > > > > Thoughts? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51523	From: john Lewis	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Hello: I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks without. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS plant eaters so live plants are not feasible. My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it gets all the "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't imagine how I'd keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie and other stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. I >use > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of .45 >- > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does in a > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the other > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that is a > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting down an 1 > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches then >the > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a temp > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill you >can > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a >massive > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the soil - > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can >be > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming > upside down under me?" > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The >sand > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more > attractive than just a bare tank. > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. > I've been really happy with that. > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it >might > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's gills. > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking > clean. > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a > great place for new fry to find food. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard >floors > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean >bare > > >floor? > > > > Thoughts? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51524	From: Bill	Date: 6/15/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

As stated earlier.. I use pool filter sand on all my tanks.. I vacuum every few days... My sand will go up the python about 4-5 inches before falling back to the floor of the tank. I might end up with a teaspoon of sand in my bucket at the end of cleaning a 125 Long tank. With the pool filter sand, the poo cannot get into the crevasses of typical gravel substrates. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:21:02 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? Hello: I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks without. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS plant eaters so live plants are not feasible. My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it gets all the "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't imagine how I'd keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie and other stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. I >use > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of .45 >- > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does in a > > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the other > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that is a > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting down an 1 > > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches then >the > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a temp > > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill you >can > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a >massive > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the soil - > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go > > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can >be > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming > upside down under me?" > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The >sand > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more > attractive than just a bare tank. > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. > I've been really happy with that. > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. > > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it > > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it >might > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the > > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's gills. > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide > > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough > > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking > clean. > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a > great place for new fry to find food. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those > > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard >floors > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean >bare > > >floor? > > > > Thoughts? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51525	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... PFS is certainly something to consider. What would be the pros/cons of a solid base such as slate tile? It is neutral pH and not shiny/reflective like granite or bare floor. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > As stated earlier.. I use pool filter sand on all my tanks.. I vacuum every few > days... My sand will go up the python about 4-5 inches before falling back to > the floor of the tank. I might end up with a teaspoon of sand in my bucket at > the end of cleaning a 125 Long tank. With the pool filter sand, the poo cannot > get into the crevasses of typical gravel substrates. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:21:02 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > Hello: > I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks > without. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS plant eaters so > > live plants are not feasible. > > My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it gets all the > "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't imagine how I'd > keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie and other > stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? > > Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. I > >use > > > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of .45 > > >- > > > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does in a > > > > > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the other > > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that is a > > > > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting down an 1 > > > > > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches then > >the > > > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a temp > > > > > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill you > >can > > > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a > >massive > > > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the soil - > > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya > > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd say go > > > > > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you have > > > > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish can > >be > > > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish swimming > > > > upside down under me?" > > > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. The > >sand > > > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's there it > > > > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more > > attractive than just a bare tank. > > > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so much > > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the traction. > > I've been really happy with that. > > > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it several > > > > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just fill a > > > > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then dump off > > > > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way you > > > > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I put > > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before and it > > > > > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - it > >might > > > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water when you > > > > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface of the > > > > > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from being > > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's > gills. > > > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can vacuum it > > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can provide > > > > > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close enough > > > > > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it looking > > clean. > > > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's also a > > > > great place for new fry to find food. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to those > > > > > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with hard > >floors > > > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an easier-to-clean > >bare > > > > >floor? > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51526	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

The cons of a slate tile as a bottom on your tank is that the poo/detritus would end up under it, and you would have to remove it to clean under it. Most people with bare bottom tanks paint the underside (bottom glass panel under the tank), if you have a solid frame/stand that the tank is sitting on this would make it dark on the bottom by default, but the glass would probably still reflect the lighting, just not as well. Amber On 6/16/2011 5:27 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... PFS is certainly something to consider. > > What would be the pros/cons of a solid base such as slate tile? It is > neutral pH and not shiny/reflective like granite or bare floor. > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > As stated earlier.. I use pool filter sand on all my tanks.. I > vacuum every few > > days... My sand will go up the python about 4-5 inches before > falling back to > > the floor of the tank. I might end up with a teaspoon of sand in my > bucket at > > the end of cleaning a 125 Long tank. With the pool filter sand, the > poo cannot > > get into the crevasses of typical gravel substrates. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:21:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > Hello: > > I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks > > without. > > Have a Great Day!!! > > Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS > plant eaters so > > > > live plants are not feasible. > > > > My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it > gets all the > > "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't > imagine how I'd > > keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie > and other > > stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? > > > > Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? > > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to > 155G... BUT.. I > > >use > > > > > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent > size of .45 > > > > >- > > > > > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like > it does in a > > > > > > > > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on > the other > > > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction > and that is a > > > > > > > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before > putting down an 1 > > > > > > > > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 > inches then > > >the > > > > > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 > minutes at a temp > > > > > > > > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest > topsoill you > > >can > > > > > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could > cause a > > >massive > > > > > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on > the soil - > > > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. > (have ya > > > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like > goldfish I'd say go > > > > > > > > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but > if you have > > > > > > > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. > The fish can > > >be > > > > > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that > fish swimming > > > > > > > upside down under me?" > > > > > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a > week. The > > >sand > > > > > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while > it's there it > > > > > > > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it > more > > > attractive than just a bare tank. > > > > > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it > stays so much > > > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the > traction. > > > I've been really happy with that. > > > > > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash > it several > > > > > > > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I > just fill a > > > > > > > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water > then dump off > > > > > > > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. > That way you > > > > > > > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. > Then I put > > > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) > in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it > before and it > > > > > > > > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter > running - it > > >might > > > > > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > > > > > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the > water when you > > > > > > > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the > surface of the > > > > > > > > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand > from being > > > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the > fish's > > gills. > > > > > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you > can vacuum it > > > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it > can provide > > > > > > > > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed > close enough > > > > > > > > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep > it looking > > > clean. > > > > > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! > It's also a > > > > > > > great place for new fry to find food. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be > advantageous to those > > > > > > > > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off > with hard > > >floors > > > > > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an > easier-to-clean > > >bare > > > > > > >floor? > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51527	From: joe t	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Hi Bill........... I believe we've tackled this debate before. I am personally in favor of gravel in the tank. I am also a live plant lover. No one has yet to explain to me how they can clean thier sand, gravel, whatever, with a gravel vacuum and not suck up the top soil you say you put on the bottom. When that top soil starts to come up into the hose, you just have to have one hell of a mess. By the way, I only used bare bottoms for raising fry and hospital tanks. joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51528	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Amber.. ya beat me to the punch almost word for word.! Bill in Va. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 1:01:01 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? The cons of a slate tile as a bottom on your tank is that the poo/detritus would end up under it, and you would have to remove it to clean under it. Most people with bare bottom tanks paint the underside (bottom glass panel under the tank), if you have a solid frame/stand that the tank is sitting on this would make it dark on the bottom by default, but the glass would probably still reflect the lighting, just not as well. Amber On 6/16/2011 5:27 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... PFS is certainly something to consider. > > What would be the pros/cons of a solid base such as slate tile? It is > neutral pH and not shiny/reflective like granite or bare floor. > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > As stated earlier.. I use pool filter sand on all my tanks.. I > vacuum every few > > days... My sand will go up the python about 4-5 inches before > falling back to > > the floor of the tank. I might end up with a teaspoon of sand in my > bucket at > > the end of cleaning a 125 Long tank. With the pool filter sand, the > poo cannot > > get into the crevasses of typical gravel substrates. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:21:02 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > Hello: > > I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks > > without. > > Have a Great Day!!! > > Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS > plant eaters so > > > > live plants are not feasible. > > > > My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it > gets all the > > "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't > imagine how I'd > > keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie > and other > > stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? > > > > Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? > > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to > 155G... BUT.. I > > >use > > > > > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent > size of .45 > > > > >- > > > > > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like > it does in a > > > > > > > > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on > the other > > > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction > and that is a > > > > > > > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before > putting down an 1 > > > > > > > > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 > inches then > > >the > > > > > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 > minutes at a temp > > > > > > > > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest > topsoill you > > >can > > > > > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could > cause a > > >massive > > > > > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on > the soil - > > > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. > (have ya > > > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like > goldfish I'd say go > > > > > > > > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but > if you have > > > > > > > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. > The fish can > > >be > > > > > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that > fish swimming > > > > > > > upside down under me?" > > > > > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a > week. The > > >sand > > > > > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while > it's there it > > > > > > > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it > more > > > attractive than just a bare tank. > > > > > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it > stays so much > > > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the > traction. > > > I've been really happy with that. > > > > > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash > it several > > > > > > > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I > just fill a > > > > > > > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water > then dump off > > > > > > > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. > That way you > > > > > > > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. > Then I put > > > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) > in the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it > before and it > > > > > > > > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter > running - it > > >might > > > > > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > > > > > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the > water when you > > > > > > > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the > surface of the > > > > > > > > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand > from being > > > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the > fish's > > gills. > > > > > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you > can vacuum it > > > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it > can provide > > > > > > > > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed > close enough > > > > > > > > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep > it looking > > > clean. > > > > > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! > It's also a > > > > > > > great place for new fry to find food. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be > advantageous to those > > > > > > > > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off > with hard > > >floors > > > > > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an > easier-to-clean > > >bare > > > > > > >floor? > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51529	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Your probably right about a repeat topic.. I belong to about 2 dozen forums... How do I keep the topsoil from coming up?.. Covered with an inch or more of PFS... When doing a vacuum over the sand, the sand only comes up 4-5 inches before falling back... the poo makes it out of the tank... Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: joe t <jett07002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 1:16:53 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? Hi Bill........... I believe we've tackled this debate before. I am personally in favor of gravel in the tank. I am also a live plant lover. No one has yet to explain to me how they can clean thier sand, gravel, whatever, with a gravel vacuum and not suck up the top soil you say you put on the bottom. When that top soil starts to come up into the hose, you just have to have one hell of a mess. By the way, I only used bare bottoms for raising fry and hospital tanks. joe t [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51530	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?

Hi Byron, I LOVE hearing from an expert about a species or breed. Thank you! I love the marbled and Marthaea best, of the ones I have seen so far. The tiny ones would be even cooler. Wonder if my LFS in Raleigh NC has any. The tank came with one hatchet that has a narrow white and black racing stripe on it, but the closest I could find at PetSmart to it to give it a companion of its own kind was solid silver, and it took quite a while for them to make friends, but now they swim in formation most of the time, and skirmish a bit. I had forgotten that too few companions can drastically affect behavior of a usually gentle fish. Fifty years ago when I was the oldest of 3 kids and therefore responsible for maintaining the family 10-gallon, we lost two of our three neons, and the survivor turned into a horrible fin biter till we got it more neons to school with. We couldn't believe that timid little thing could become so aggressive, but in retrospect it was probably sheer terror at being all alone in a tank with mollies and fairly big angels and larger tetras. We didn't believe it til we saw the little guy in action, several times. Then when I got older, 13, we went to an aquarium shop in Savannah one day, and the owner, who was a breeder, took me in the back to show me his breeding tanks. When I was overwhelmed and awed by the HUGE tank of baby bettas, he scooped up a netful and gave them to me, and won me over to fish for life. Something I am getting back to after many years away. My mother was NOT won over by every surface in the den being covered with brandy snifters (our idea of sophisticated housing, LOL). However, even she was intrigued by the mating behavior of the bettas. Recently I realized I missed having a tank, and got a free 10-gal with the proviso that I would keep alive the three fish that had been in it a year, a blackfin tetra, x-ray tetra, and the one hatchet. I added von Rio tetras and glowlight tetras and the second hatchet. Sounds like in the newer tank, we need more hatchets. Thanks again, your post is a keeper for future reference! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51531	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Hi Kai, I'm with Bill-keep the gravel & add plants, although mine are in pots! I read that your Barbs eat plants so that is obviously not an option for you so even more reason [I would have thought] to have some kind of substrate on the bottom just for extra areas for the good filtration bugs to grow. Ive only just re-started using gravel again in my 109 [UK] long Goldfish tank after a 4 years break & they absolutely love it-I think they were bored so now they sift all day & are smiling again. Conversely my tank is even cleaner than it was when I had a clean floor in there. Like yourself I thought a bare floor=clean tank. Well, it does in a way but I found my NO3 going up dramatically even with lots of plants in pots & also I think that too *biologically* clean can be just as bad as too dirty. The gravel I use now is very small 3mm rounded so they can suck up big mouth fulls & as they do so all the debris gets milled so fine that it is suspended in the water column & passes straight into my filters. I only have a couple of mm depth of the gravel but there is virtually no waste anywhere in the tan now but the extra area for the good bugs to colonise on the gravel has reduced the NO3 build up considerably. The reason I changed back was I have lots of potted plants in the tank & the fish were constantly digging in these & spitting the fine sand & gravel substrate all over my nice tidy floor & once it was down there they would sift it until I hoovered it up with a water change & then the cycle would repeat again. Eventually I thought what the hell-lets go for it & replace it. Obviously this is only the case with large streamlined Goldfish who are kicking out a lot of waste anyway so you might still fare better with no substrate for your fish. It won't work for everyone but I am happy that I got my gravel back & so are the fish. Haecklers mentioned that some fish could be weirded out by a bare tank floor & I think my lot were to some degree-they certainly seem a lot calmer now & it really does look a whole lot better with the gravel. If I were a fish I think gravel would make me feel more at home, imagine life in your house with mirrored floors-your spacial awareness would be all over the place! Regarding hoovering up with sand-I know several people with sand substrate & after a bit of trial & error it is easy to hold the nozzle at just the right height above the sandy floor to allow all the debris to get sucked up without sand. John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 02:24, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > As stated earlier.. I use pool filter sand on all my tanks.. I vacuum every > few > days... My sand will go up the python about 4-5 inches before falling back > to > the floor of the tank. I might end up with a teaspoon of sand in my bucket > at > the end of cleaning a 125 Long tank. With the pool filter sand, the poo > cannot > get into the crevasses of typical gravel substrates. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:21:02 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > Hello: > I like gravel on the bottom of my tanks though I've seen several tanks > without. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 8:08:25 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > I have (too many) tinfoil barbs in my 55g and they are VORACIOUS plant > eaters so > > live plants are not feasible. > > My gravel vac sucks up handfuls of gravel as I vacuum -- while it gets all > the > "stuff" from between the gravel. If I had a sand floor, can't imagine how > I'd > keep from sucking up all the sand. If I'm just vacuuming the poopie and > other > stuff off the top, wouldn't I (little by little) suck it all away? > > Why not go with a bare or solid (granite/slate tiles?) floor? > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Sand substrate. I use sand in all of my tanks.. from 30G to 155G... BUT.. > I > >use > > > > Pool Filter Sand.. PFS. This sand has been graded to a consistent size of > .45 > > >- > > > > .55 mm. This granular size allows water to flow thru it much like it does > in a > > > > > > pool filter. Plus the roots of plants love it. Playground sand on the > other > > hand had granule sizes all over the map allowing for compaction and that > is a > > > BIG no no inside a tank. If ya really wanna get fancy, before putting > down an 1 > > > > > > or so of PFS, spread a layer of clean top soil to t depth of 1.5 inches > then > >the > > > > sand. If you do go with the soil, be sure and bake it for 30 minutes at a > temp > > > > > > of 190 degrees. This kills off any critters. Buy the cheapest topsoill > you > >can > > > > as it will not have any additives in it.. ie ferts... That could cause a > >massive > > > > phosphate overload and algae up the ying-yang. I'll write more on the > soil - > > sand system if anyone is interested. Oh.. Plants Plants Plants. (have ya > > gotten the idea I like Naturally Planted Tanks)? Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 4:34:31 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? > > > > > > How much more bio-load do you have? If it's something like goldfish I'd > say go > > > > > > bare because you'll be able to vacuum up the poos more easily, but if you > have > > > tropical fish a layer of sand substrate might be the way to go. The fish > can > >be > > > > weirded out by seeing their reflections below them, "Why is that fish > swimming > > > upside down under me?" > > > > My fry tanks have a big bioload and I clean them several times a week. > The > >sand > > > > tends to eventually get sucked up with the dirty water but while it's > there it > > > provides extra food (little things live in the sand) and makes it more > > attractive than just a bare tank. > > > > I changed my crayfish tanks over to sand substrate because it stays so > much > > cleaner. They like to sift around in it a bit and they needed the > traction. > > I've been really happy with that. > > > > I use playsand like they sell for kids' sand boxes. I have to wash it > several > > > times before using it because there is some fine dust in there. I just > fill a > > > bucket halfway full with the sand, use the hose to pour in water then > dump off > > > the water 4-5 times until it becomes clear after about a minute. That way > you > > > get rid of most of the fine particles that would cloud the water. Then I > put > > between 1/2" and 1" (if it's over clay kitty litter for my plants) in the > tank. > > > > > > > > > > I've added it when the tank was already filled and had fish in it before > and it > > > > > > didn't seem to do any harm, but that tank had a sponge filter running - > it > >might > > > > clog a pump type filter if you try that! > > > > > > If you go with sand, it's a good idea to break the force of the water > when you > > > refill the tank after water changes. I just put one hand on the surface > of the > > > > > > water and then pour the water onto my hand. That keeps the sand from > being > > stirred up by the water currents so it can't clog a filter or the fish's > gills. > > > > Sand is so cheap if it ever gives you problems (like algae) you can > vacuum it > > out and then put in a fresh batch. Because it's a little porous it can > provide > > > > > > a lot more surface area for denitrifying bacteria, but it's packed close > enough > > > > > > the food rarely falls deeply in it - a regular vacuuming can keep it > looking > > clean. > > > > Shrimp, kuhlis, crayfish, snails, and digging fish all LOVE sand! It's > also a > > > great place for new fry to find food. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > Since gravel tends to hold waste, would a bare floor be advantageous to > those > > > > > > >of us who have a a greater bio-load than we should? > > > > > > I'm kinda looking at it as those with allergies are better off with > hard > >floors > > > > >than carpeting. Or am I taking that analogy a bit too far? > > > > > > In other words, should I remove the gravel in favor of an > easier-to-clean > >bare > > > > >floor? > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51532	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

People with heavily planted tanks don't actually vacuum the gravel, as you would end up sucking up the plants. This is same for Walstad setups that have soil under the gravel. I run my gravel vac over the top of my plants to suck up anything that's loose in the plants, but don't stick my vac down into the gravel. For this reason the tank has to be sufficiently planted to cover most of the gravel/soil. Amber On 6/16/2011 9:16 AM, joe t wrote: > > > > Hi Bill........... > > I believe we've tackled this debate before. I am personally in favor > of gravel in the tank. I am also a live plant lover. > > No one has yet to explain to me how they can clean thier sand, gravel, > whatever, with a gravel vacuum and not suck up the top soil you say > you put on the bottom. > > When that top soil starts to come up into the hose, you just have to > have one hell of a mess. > > By the way, I only used bare bottoms for raising fry and hospital tanks. > > joe t > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51533	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Ammonia woes

OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a much bigger tank. Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of the rock.) Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, which cost more than I had planned to spend. It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, losing them would have been devastating. How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, laurie (Mother Mastiff)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51534	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank?

For a 10G and wanting surface residents?.. I'd check out Endlers were I you. The females aren't anything to look at but the colors on the males make ya think they were painted! You'd swear they were guppies when young but when the guys get their colors there is no mistaking... Plus.. they pop out 4 - 8 young every week or so and don't eat their young!...That is if they are wild caught species. Some sites say they do eat their young but my friend that breeds them states that only hybrids do that. here is a couple of pics of them: http://www.google.com/search?q=endlers&hl=en&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=9Vz6TYGwCJLpgAfBuOz-BA&ved=0CCYQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=673 ________________________________ From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 10:11:06 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Surface dwelling fish for a small, tall tank? Hi Byron, I LOVE hearing from an expert about a species or breed. Thank you! I love the marbled and Marthaea best, of the ones I have seen so far. The tiny ones would be even cooler. Wonder if my LFS in Raleigh NC has any. The tank came with one hatchet that has a narrow white and black racing stripe on it, but the closest I could find at PetSmart to it to give it a companion of its own kind was solid silver, and it took quite a while for them to make friends, but now they swim in formation most of the time, and skirmish a bit. I had forgotten that too few companions can drastically affect behavior of a usually gentle fish. Fifty years ago when I was the oldest of 3 kids and therefore responsible for maintaining the family 10-gallon, we lost two of our three neons, and the survivor turned into a horrible fin biter till we got it more neons to school with. We couldn't believe that timid little thing could become so aggressive, but in retrospect it was probably sheer terror at being all alone in a tank with mollies and fairly big angels and larger tetras. We didn't believe it til we saw the little guy in action, several times. Then when I got older, 13, we went to an aquarium shop in Savannah one day, and the owner, who was a breeder, took me in the back to show me his breeding tanks. When I was overwhelmed and awed by the HUGE tank of baby bettas, he scooped up a netful and gave them to me, and won me over to fish for life. Something I am getting back to after many years away. My mother was NOT won over by every surface in the den being covered with brandy snifters (our idea of sophisticated housing, LOL). However, even she was intrigued by the mating behavior of the bettas. Recently I realized I missed having a tank, and got a free 10-gal with the proviso that I would keep alive the three fish that had been in it a year, a blackfin tetra, x-ray tetra, and the one hatchet. I added von Rio tetras and glowlight tetras and the second hatchet. Sounds like in the newer tank, we need more hatchets. Thanks again, your post is a keeper for future reference! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51535	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Right now i've not any set up in the walstad method but do use PFS for my substrate and I do vacuum but keep the nozel about a 1/2 inch off the surface... I'm growing Vals, Sags and Crypts for the most part and they allow me to get between them pretty good. Bill inVa. ----- Original Message ---- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 5:10:25 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel? People with heavily planted tanks don't actually vacuum the gravel, as you would end up sucking up the plants. This is same for Walstad setups that have soil under the gravel. I run my gravel vac over the top of my plants to suck up anything that's loose in the plants, but don't stick my vac down into the gravel. For this reason the tank has to be sufficiently planted to cover most of the gravel/soil. Amber On 6/16/2011 9:16 AM, joe t wrote: > > > > Hi Bill........... > > I believe we've tackled this debate before. I am personally in favor > of gravel in the tank. I am also a live plant lover. > > No one has yet to explain to me how they can clean thier sand, gravel, > whatever, with a gravel vacuum and not suck up the top soil you say > you put on the bottom. > > When that top soil starts to come up into the hose, you just have to > have one hell of a mess. > > By the way, I only used bare bottoms for raising fry and hospital tanks. > > joe t > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51536	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Mother, I don't believe it. Always rinse out the tank well before filling it. You don't know where it was, how long it was there, or what may have been in it. You don't even know if it leaks! I wouldn't think of using a new OR 2nd hand aquarium I didn't test, and rinse thoroughly first. What are you going to do when a 30 gallon tank full of water busts on you! And the previous owner or the store might not be to blame. Those things aren't all that sturdy; maybe it's how it got joggled or shifted on the way home. The glass panes are only held together with silicone! Every time I move my aquarium, it gets filled slowly and carefully. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "mothermastiff" <mother@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 2:58 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a much bigger tank. Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of the rock.) Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, which cost more than I had planned to spend. It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, losing them would have been devastating. How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, laurie (Mother Mastiff) ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51537	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@...> wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51538	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

I don't see why the ammonia would not rinse/wash right off. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@... <mailto:mother%40mothermastiff.com> > wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51539	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Hello all, I DID rinse it well using a new scrubber, and checked it for leaks, which it didn't have, before filling it. Because I didn't have a test kit yet, I asked the biggest fish store in the area (well, they have 200 tanks) to check the tank's water plus my plain well water (they said the well water was fine, great for tropicals). Today I bought a big API freshwater test kit from them (same as they use themselves) so now I can test water any time. The LFS owner who was pretty sure Windex had been used in the tank said that if I was willing to fill it and run it for 6 months with a full water change weekly, eventually it would be safe. Sounds like a LOT of work. Or he could sell me a chameleon to live in it, if I got a top that would keep him in, and VERY expensive heat lamps and limbs and plants. LOL. I never put the fish in the new tank, they are in a plastic bag right now and will go back into the old 10-gal tonight till I find a safer tank. They are 1 von Rio (planned to buy more to go with) and 3 glowlight tetras, and 2 rather large chubby African dwarf frogs (obviously loving those live blackworms). I planned on adding marble or pygmy hatchet fish, or blue longfin danios for the upper story, and a couple of bronze corys below. Today I gave away the four fish I didn't want, asked that they be given to children who could not afford as many fish as they had room for or wanted. So I have very few fish at the moment. I thought I'd get the new tank set up (re-using the 10 gallons from the old tank, plus my excellent well water) before buying the additional fish I want. The shelf where I best enjoy the aquarium is immediately beside my monitor, in a sturdily built shelf unit, which stands atop a door that serves as a desk top, which is supported by a pair of 2-drawer metal file cabinets, one of which is immediately under the tank. On a tile floor. laurie (Mother Mastiff)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51540	From: Bill	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Were it me?.. I'd fill it with water, add an ammonia fixer, let it set for a couple of hours and drain.. maybe do it twice... then refill add what ever treatment you use for your water (Prime) and introduce a few guppies.. or goldfish... Sounds cold-hearted I know... but... There are only a gazillion of them... if they survive, introduce a clutch of more sensitive fish.. (neon tetra's would be my selection)... I'm betting you'l lnot have a problem at all. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 8:15:20 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes I don't see why the ammonia would not rinse/wash right off. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@... <mailto:mother%40mothermastiff.com> > wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51541	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

I have used lime away to clean before I use. rinsed right off, no problems. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:15 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes   I don't see why the ammonia would not rinse/wash right off. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@... <mailto:mother%40mothermastiff.com> > wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51542	From: Lisa	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: I did this to refresh my interest in the hobby

I recently purchased 3 swordtails. 1 male two females. One of the females is a Mickey mouse pineapple. The other female is just pineapple. Where as the male is also a Mickey mouse pineapple. The pineapple female appears to be pregnant when I got her home. She has quite a dark gravid spot, and I am expecting her to release her fry in the next few days. On the left side of the tank. There is quite dense leaf and plant cover. And the rest of the tank is open swimming space. The water is at 27 C* the PH 7.0 Niterates and niterites are both at 0ppm I was wondering is it best to isolate the fry as soon as I see them free swimming? Or just let them hide, and hope for the best? I've had livebarers in the past. And after a while, I just let the fry free swim cause there were so many. And a number of them did survive, and quite well. And the adults actually lost interest in chasing them. Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51543	From: parkpac@earthlink.net	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Best way to raise pH slowly

Hi All, Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. Thanks, Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51544	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Ammonia would rinse right off. But modern windex may contain organic chemicals as well. Those are designed for cleaning glass and be clean wiping, and even on plastic it shouldn't leave much of a residue, but the person who thought they would ruin the tank forever was most likely worried about cancer causing trace residues. I always rinse a new tank, let alone a second hand one. If he didn't do that, he's got noone to blame but himself. And the tank's not ruined forever. It's simply ridiculous. All he has to do is dismantle it, rinse and put in freshly prepared water. It sounds like he didn't yet put in any fish. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donna Ransome" <djransome@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 7:15 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes I don't see why the ammonia would not rinse/wash right off. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@... <mailto:mother%40mothermastiff.com> > wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51545	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/16/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

I doubt the chemicals won't rinse out, though I suppose it is possible that the fish will have an increased risk of cancer in 20 years. :) I still can't believe he didn't rinse out that tank. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "SIMMONDS JOHN" <simmonds.john@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@...> wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked > immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very > expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was > all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and > apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my > fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your > experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51546	From: Bill	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Holey rock would slowly bring it up.. homemade caves made with concrete would leach out slowly.. Bill ________________________________ From: "parkpac@..." <parkpac@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 8:25:40 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Best way to raise pH slowly Hi All, Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. Thanks, Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51547	From: Bill	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

I think your LFS is trying to sell ya a new tank!... I've got a euro 29 (bow front) avail for 30.00.. moved my Rams and Apisot's into a 30 long.. gives them more footprint to map out.. Also have a 75 G for sale.. complete 165... and a 230 complete.. Compute your shipping charge from 23112!~ LOL.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 7:21:59 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes I doubt the chemicals won't rinse out, though I suppose it is possible that the fish will have an increased risk of cancer in 20 years. :) I still can't believe he didn't rinse out that tank. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "SIMMONDS JOHN" <simmonds.john@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes Hi Laurie, What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the strips they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store is a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if you acted on results taken immediately. The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the joins-just me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is absolutely unavoidable. Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks cheap or free. Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! John*<o)))< * On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@...> wrote: > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked > immaculate > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very > expensive > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of > the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was > all > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and > apparently > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my > fish, > losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your > experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51548	From: mothermastiff	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

OK, do you know how the ammonia fixer works? If it binds the ammonia to render it harmless to the fish, and then I can pour or wash it out (and re-wash the tank), that would be wonderful! thanks, laurie (who thinks this tank is way too pretty to give up on easily) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Were it me?.. I'd fill it with water, add an ammonia fixer, let it set for a > couple of hours and drain.. maybe do it twice... then refill add what ever > treatment you use for your water (Prime) and introduce a few guppies.. or > goldfish... Sounds cold-hearted I know... but... There are only a gazillion of > them... if they survive, introduce a clutch of more sensitive fish.. (neon > tetra's would be my selection)... I'm betting you'l lnot have a problem at all. > Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51549	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

What is the pH out of the tap? Out of the tap after sitting on the counter 24 hours? What caused the drop? If your tap water is higher than 6.2 then you can just do water changes to increase the pH. If your tap water is pH=6.2, baking soda will increase it. Increase about 0.2 daily until you are where you want. No need to go over 8. To figure out the amount I add a teaspoon to a gallon of water outside the tank, measure pH. If it's 6.4 then extrapolate how much baking soda for your entire tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of parkpac@... Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:26 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Best way to raise pH slowly Hi All, Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it's in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. Thanks, Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51550	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: I did this to refresh my interest in the hobby

If your tank is cycled, nitrates should be above zero. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lisa Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:16 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] I did this to refresh my interest in the hobby I recently purchased 3 swordtails. 1 male two females. One of the females is a Mickey mouse pineapple. The other female is just pineapple. Where as the male is also a Mickey mouse pineapple. The pineapple female appears to be pregnant when I got her home. She has quite a dark gravid spot, and I am expecting her to release her fry in the next few days. On the left side of the tank. There is quite dense leaf and plant cover. And the rest of the tank is open swimming space. The water is at 27 C* the PH 7.0 Niterates and niterites are both at 0ppm I was wondering is it best to isolate the fry as soon as I see them free swimming? Or just let them hide, and hope for the best? I've had livebarers in the past. And after a while, I just let the fry free swim cause there were so many. And a number of them did survive, and quite well. And the adults actually lost interest in chasing them. Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51551	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Bare Floor? Or Keep Gravel?

Thanks, everyone, for your comprehensive replies. Plants are out. So is the bare floor. And I don't think changing from gravel to sand would be feasible. I'm going to stick with the gravel I've got. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51552	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Hi Bill, I have to disagree with your reasoning for using live fish to cycle a tank-especially now everyone in the hobby knows about fish-less cycling. It really shouldn't matter that one fish is cheaper to buy or more common than another. Even if the fish gets through the toxic ordeal of cycling-what happens to the poor creatures once the tank is ready? A cheap or plentiful fish has no different perception of his being than a rare & expensive one-they both want-& deserve-to have the happiest life we can provide for them. I think as keepers of living creatures we should always promote [& indeed have] a sense of respect for any life-especially fish. Just my opinion! John*<o)))<* On 17 June 2011 01:29, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > Were it me?.. I'd fill it with water, add an ammonia fixer, let it set for > a > couple of hours and drain.. maybe do it twice... then refill add what ever > treatment you use for your water (Prime) and introduce a few guppies.. or > goldfish... Sounds cold-hearted I know... but... There are only a gazillion > of > them... if they survive, introduce a clutch of more sensitive fish.. (neon > tetra's would be my selection)... I'm betting you'l lnot have a problem at > all. > Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, June 16, 2011 8:15:20 PM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes > > I don't see why the ammonia would not rinse/wash right off. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:15 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes > > Hi Laurie, > > What type[s] of fish do you have & how many? My first bit of advice not > directly connected with your tank woes would be to get yourself a good > liquid test kit such as API, Tetra or Nutrafin. Don't bother with the > strips > they are not accurate enough. More importantly relying on the local store > is > a lottery-you don't know how old the test kit they use is or how accurately > they test your water. Then there is the situation at 11pm on a Sunday > evening when you see a problem in your tank-it could be too late to act by > 9am the next morning when the store is open but you might save your fish if > you acted on results taken immediately. > > The Windex problem-personally I would never reuse anything that had > commercial solvents or cleaners used on it, if it is acrylic the chemicals > may get right into the plastic & leach out into the water later. If it is > glass then you will have the same worries with the sealant in the > joins-just > me being cautious I guess but I wouldn't risk it. My thinking with the > ammonia remover is it may well remove it but what does it use to do that? I > am a great believer in not adding anything to a tank unless it is > absolutely > unavoidable. > > Craigslist or Freecycle are good places to look for big unwanted tanks > cheap > or free. > > Finally your shelf needs to be really well supported-20 gallons weighs one > hell of a lot, even your slightly-lighter-than-UK US gallons! > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 16 June 2011 20:58, mothermastiff <mother@... > <mailto:mother%40mothermastiff.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard > > 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked > immaculate > > and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very > expensive > > (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a > > much bigger tank. > > > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water > > that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out > of > > the rock.) > > > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was > all > > right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and > apparently > > the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it > was > > THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could > > survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't > patient > > (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf > > that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, > > which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know > > any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my > fish, > > losing them would have been devastating. > > > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or > do? > > Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed > > opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If > so, > > might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water > and > > gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your > experience, > > > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51553	From: Cham Fan	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes - Tank

Hi! Where in VA are you located? I'm in Gaithersburg, MD. D.A. Smith~ --- On Fri, 6/17/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Ammonia woes > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, June 17, 2011, 12:50 AM > > I think your LFS is trying to sell ya > a new tank!... I've got a euro 29 (bow > front) avail for 30.00.. moved my Rams and Apisot's into a > 30 long.. gives them > more footprint to map out.. Also have a 75 G for sale.. > complete 165... and a > 230 complete.. Compute your shipping charge from > 23112!~  LOL.. Bill in Va. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51554	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: What are tricolor tetra?

My local fish store, Aquatek, which is a very reputable store, has tricolored tetras. They look alot like pristella tetras, just not like Aquatek's pristella tetras, which are bright yellow. (I've never seen such a thing.) They have orange stripes on their fins where Pristellas have yellow, and otherwise I don't see much of a difference, except that they aren't yellow. These are NOT those multi-colored dyed tetras they've come out with. I was thinking about getting them instead but need to know more about them. What species are they? The store is only open crazy hours, and there is no e-mail on their web site. Their message seemed to be set up to take a message but God knows if they'll expect anybody to have left one. I left one - they may not find it. Thanks! Yours, Dora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51555	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Steve, Most undoubtedly, your African Cichlids constist solely of Malawi species. Tanganyika cichlids would not tolerate a pH 6.2 for very long at all. Fortunately, as you're finding out, Malawi Cichlids are just little more tolerant as their natural pH range is not quite as high as Lake Tankganyika's. Still, they will not tolerate it very well long-term, and will be seen to go off their feed as a first sign of it. I have to assume that your tap water's pH is basic, as most water facilities supply. I'd suggest doing daily partial water changes to bring your pH up gradually but surely. If you could supply us with the parameters of your tap water, we could give you even better advice of how to proceed further, but not know your tap water's GH and KH (or pH) it's impossible to give more input on how to best stabilize your tank's pH above neutral. You may benefit from the addition of crushed coral or dolomite in you filter, but I can't comment on this further at this stage until knowing more. As you may now be aware, maintaining fish together having vastly different requirements should not be considered to start with, as it's difficult at best to keep them all happy. Jewel Cichlids are West African river residents, best kept in soft mildly acid water. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. > > Thanks, Steve > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51556	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Ammonia woes

Laurie, Whether or not this seller on Craig's List knew that Windex is toxic to fish -- and should NEVER be used on the inside of an aquarium -- and I have to assume that they didn't know since it would serve no purpose to use it (other than making the tank cleaner looking to sell better) -- their action still renders this tank harmful to fish at this time if it is definite that this is what they used. For this reason alone, and whether they knew of the consequences or not (the knowledge or lack of is immaterial), their application of Windex is sufficient cause for your being able to return it, under any other agreement you may have had with this person. It was they who rendered the tank harmful to fish when they sold it to you (if these are the facts). I would return this tank to them, even if it requires a note from your LFS (who should be happy to supply this to you if they consider you a valued customer), indicating their test results -- but test results alone of 3.0 ppm ammonia does not prove that Windex was used. Your LFS would have to have something more substantial than just suspecting Windex for them to say this is the cause. BTW, on this same subject of 3.0 ppm of total ammonia now in this tank's water after you filled it with 7 gallons of old water and 13 gallons of your well water, have you tested your well water for ammonia??? Did you ever test your old tank water for ammonia? Your 10 gallon tank could have had a high level of ammonium especially if this water was acid -- and would not have harmed your fish under these conditions. Assuming your tap (well) water in basic (above pH 7.0), as most tap/well water is, any relatively harmless ammonium would then be converted into toxic ammonia when the pH rises above neutral, which would happen when adding the major portion of fresh water in proportion to your old water if this new (well) water is basic. It would pay to test your well water's parameters. The test results of any ammonia test kit in the hobby give results for Total Ammonia (combination -- Ammonium and Free Ammonia). The pH and temperature determine how much Free Ammonia there is from this Total Ammonia figure, but this is not to be a concern yet at this time; we just need to know the Total Ammonia (if any) of your well water. One other scenario could be that this previous owner used this tank for a reptile or small mammal, in which case it's undiluted (as not being released in aquarium water) permeates the silicone sealant and is released upon your filling the tank with water. Of course you'd have no way of knowing this unless the previous owner volunteered this information. Contact with Windex would have the same effect -- it would penetrate into the silicone sealant much like any dye medication will be seen to turn the silicone green or blue. It then is released steadily over a period of time until it gradually weakens -- which can take up to 6 months. As for any Windex on the glass, I'm not really sure if it would be rinsed off very easily, even with Lime Away or such -- although I can't say for sure. Windex's use could possibly cause a harder to remove film though, although hopefully it's more easily removed than what I may suspect; this still leaves the fact that some of it may well have come in contact with the silicone however. Glad to see you've bought your own API master test kit. At least you can now keep on top of the water conditions as you take steps in trying to remove the effects of the Windex, re-testing each time as you keep refilling it after cleaning/rinsing. Hard to say whether the LFS is trying to sell you a new tank, but at least you can do your own testing now, which would tell you how close their results were to the tests you're doing -- and yes, I'd test it again to make sure there are no differences. I would like to point out though, thst since you never had a test kit before, that there's the possibilty thast your well water may contain ammonia if you're in an area of farmland where fertilizers are used on the crops and gets down into your water table. I have a member on another group who has just this very problem. If you feel you can eliminate this possiblity (take an ammonia test of your well water), and if things point to Windex seeping in to the silicone as can easily happen, it's not that difficult to cut out the bead of Silicone Sealant from inside of the corners of the aquarium where the sides meet the ends and where they meet the bottom, and replace a new bead of the sealant. Your LFS will have Silicone in a tube, for use on aquariums (although it will be more expensive than other sources). Other than your LFS, you can go to Home Depot or Lowes and get GE Silicone I (CLEAR -- not black or white) Window & Door waterproof sealant. DO NOT get Kitchen & Bath. I use GE Window and Door all the time -- for the past 40 years -- and never had a problem (comes in a large tube meant to fit into a caulking gun); just sealed up a 40 gallon yesterday and did a 20 long last week. Fish are thriving in the 20 long, while this 40 gallon is still curing. Paid $4.47 for it (9.8 ounces) -- probably cheaper than you could buy a small tube 1/3 that size from your LFS. Ammonia "Fixer" will work, as someone brought up but you should need to use it when the problem may be fixable. A good water conditioner like Prime though, will convert any ammonia into ammonium, even in alkaline conditions. It works, as do other leading conditioners, such as Amquel + (Plus), although with this latter product increased aeration is recommended as the product uses large amounts (amount equivilent to the quantity of ammonia to be converted) of Oxygen in its process of conversion. Another BTW (LOL), I noticed you checked for leaks, and from the way I read it, it seemed like you said you checked for them before you filled it (unless I misread you). I'd just like to say that the only way leaks can be tested for is to fill the tank first and then see if (and/or where) it leaks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mothermastiff" <mother@...> wrote: > > OK, I was looking for an attractive 20-gal tank narrower than a standard 30" size, to fit into a very well supported shelf about 28" wide. > > I found a 20-gal bowfront on Craigslist and bought it. It looked immaculate and unused. The seller told me it was his first aquarium and very expensive (looked it) but that he decided almost immediately he needed or wanted a much bigger tank. > > Today I rinsed it well, put in gravel, and filled it. I have well water that tests out excellent (no additives or filters, just comes right out of the rock.) > > Took water samples to the LFS to make sure what was in the new tank was all right because I re-used about 7 gallons from the old 10-gal, and apparently the previous owner used Windex to clean the inside of the bowfront, it was THREE parts per million, the LFS owner said nothing I would want could survive in it and that it would take a VERY long time, if I wasn't patient (I am not), I ought to get rid of the tank and start over. > > So, now I need to find a healthy 20-gal that isn't too wide for my shelf that my poor fish can go into, and figure out what to do with this tank, which cost more than I had planned to spend. > > It is almost new, very attractive, and has its own LED lighting. > > I am REALLY upset. What a shock! The previous owner probably didn't know any better. I am SO glad I decided to set up and test before adding my fish, losing them would have been devastating. > > How difficult is it to get out that much ammonia? What should I use or do? Or is the LFS guy right and I should just use it for lizards? <b=g> > > There is stuff that is sold to remove ammonia although I hear very mixed opinions of it, does it precipitate out ammonia or render it inert? If so, might that help clean up this tank, and then I could discard the water and gravel and start with new gravel and so forth? > > Thanks for any and all practical advice and the benefit of your experience, > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51557	From: cobra427lady	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Hi, Steve: I just went thru this with one of my tanks - I used crushed coral fragments hanging in a mesh bag directly in the tank (works best with some flow over it) and raised the tank from 6.0 to 7.2 over a two week period. No impact on any of the fishes. Good luck! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. > > Thanks, Steve > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51558	From: Ray	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Hi Clare, Crushed coral is excellent for raising the pH (and with it, the KH), as I previously mentioned. In conditions of having acid source (tap) water, crushed coral (or dolomite, Aragonite, etc.) is a requisite if needing to maintain one's tap water in the basic range (above pH 7.0) especial when otherwise confronted with acidic conditions (including the tap water), but when this source water is already basic, a more natural method of just making periodic PWC's with it in increasing it's ratio to the existing tank water is so much easier, positive and uniform. The continued use of crushed coral and like carbonates in the aquarium application really depends in large part upon one's tap water parameters -- which Steve has now been asked for. If his tap water is basic and has a moderate to higher kH value, just more frequent and larger PWC's will ultimately maintain his aquarium water in the higher pH range he is looking for, in just as gradual of an increase as additions of calcium-increasing carbonates. Without yet knowing Steve's parameters, it's really impossible at this time to be able to determine which is the best path to take, even while crushed coral will do the job. For all we know, he may be experiencing a larger than recommended bioload for his size tank, which would ultimately cause the pH to drop as the KH is overtaken, if sufficient PWC's are not done (and as nitrous acid builds up). This would be another factor we would need to know, to give the best advice. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, Steve: > I just went thru this with one of my tanks - I used crushed coral fragments hanging in a mesh bag directly in the tank (works best with some flow over it) and raised the tank from 6.0 to 7.2 over a two week period. No impact on any of the fishes. Good luck! > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. > > > > Thanks, Steve > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51559	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 6/17/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

We tend to view pH as all-important, but in fact the hardness is the real critical factor with fish. The pH is usually closely connected of course, depending upon the specific minerals, so dealing with hardness will naturally result in the relevant (appropriate) pH. Rift lake cichlids must have hard water. The hardness of Lake Tanganyika is close to 20 dGH which is almost up to the hardness (22 dGH) of sea water, and the pH is a between 8.4 and 9.5. While cichlids from this lake and the other two (which are only slightly lower) may "appear" fine in soft water, they are not, and will have internal issues due to the unavailability of minerals. So the first question is, what is the hardness of your source (presumably tap) water? And it's pH, just so we know the co-relation. Raising both is very easy naturally. Calcareous rock/sand/gravel. Limestone, dolomite(this is the absolute best if you can find it), marble work, as does crushed coral (as in coral sand). A substrate of one of these mineral gra vels/sands will probably raise the hardness and pH and it will maintain it there permanently. When I haqd rift lake cichlids years ago, with very soft (< 1 dGH) out of the tap, I used a substrate of dolomite gravel and they thrived in very hard water with a pH around 9. There are rift lake "salts" available, and while these are fine, the expense long-term is likely not. They are not "salt" as we commonly think of it (that is something that should not be used with these fish), but minerals comparable to those in the water of the rift lakes. If you tap is within the acc3eptable range and the tank itself has lowered, be careful. Raising it must be done slowly, not only to avoid shocking the fish but to avoid poisoning via ammonia and nitrite. In acidic water ammonia changes to relatively harmless ammonium, and as nitrosomonas bacteria are less active there is minimal ammonium being converted to nitrite. As soon as the pH of the tank is above 7, the ammonium changes back into ammonia, usually resulting in immediate demise of the fish from ammonia poisoning (depending upon the number of fish and water volume). Should they survive this, the niotrite spike that follows will get them. In this scenario, either raise the tank slowly (via hardness and pH), or even better if you can, move the fish (and the water) to as temporary tank and then correct the main tank. This speeds things up a bit, since the larger change in pH (less than 1 degree at a time) is far less damaging that the ammonia/nitrite. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > What is the pH out of the tap? Out of the tap after sitting on the counter > 24 hours? What caused the drop? > > > > If your tap water is higher than 6.2 then you can just do water changes to > increase the pH. > > > > If your tap water is pH=6.2, baking soda will increase it. Increase about > 0.2 daily until you are where you want. No need to go over 8. > > > > To figure out the amount I add a teaspoon to a gallon of water outside the > tank, measure pH. If it's 6.4 then extrapolate how much baking soda for > your entire tank. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of parkpac@... > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:26 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best way to raise pH slowly > > > > > > Hi All, > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid > tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. > The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it's in the > 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a > higher pH. > > Thanks, Steve > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51560	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? Should I remove the other angelfish? What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51561	From: Bill	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: buying a large aquarium?

I might have to debate the idea of a 35 or 50... while good choices.. the more water volume, the less likely a swing in water chemistry. Bill ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 9, 2011 7:43:43 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? Moya, has your boyfriend had an aquarium before? If not, a 35 or 50 gallon would be a more sensible choice, as well as more affordable. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "moya a" <moyaalysia@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2011 6:11 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] buying a large aquarium? Hello everyone. I am looking for a 120 gallon aquarium for my friend. This will be for freshwater fish. They live in the Tampa Bay area in Pinellas county. I was thinking about Craigs List and am afraid of getting something with a leak. Then I was not sure which online site would be the best place or where to go. Looking for a bargain. Any suggestions as to were to buy one from? Thanks! moya ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51562	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

R, Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51563	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

I had a pair spawn, and they put their eggs on a broad leaf plastic plant - that seemed to work fine too. Rick --- On Mon, 6/20/11, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, June 20, 2011, 1:27 PM   R, Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51564	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Thank you Ray! I didn't even think about the other fish eating their fry - I was worried about the angels attacking the fish! Good point! Do you think the ancistrus will eat the eggs at night? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > R, > > Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. > > Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. > > A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51565	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Well, you can certainly expect the Angel parents to "attack" the other fish if they try to venture too close to the eggs or fry in an attempt to get a snack. This is only in defence of their spawn and a protective behavior. If the other fish learn to keep their distance, the Angels won't attack these fish any further than they consider what their territorial boundary is, but in a smaller tank, this could be most of it. Actually, as long as you don't mind losing at least a few fry (which would be inevitable), albeit it could be more -- depending on how many other fish are involved and these fish's disposition. If there are only a very few Guppies (and I'd guess one female Betta), and if these Guppies (and Betta) are already intimidated by the Angels, the odds then are slimmer that they'd venture too near the Angel pair and their fry -- although stragglers which travel too far from the parents may be fair game -- especially in a smaller tank. If this is a large tank with very few Guppies, there may be some advantage in keeping them (or at least a few) in with the Angels to act as "dither" fish, which will focus the parents' attention on these fish (as in combining forces) instead of on each other. More than occassionally when not otherwise pre-occupied with protecting their spawn from others, one or the other first-time parents may try a few eggs as a snack of their own, resulting in the other parent getting hostile towards this parent and leading to some possible serious damage. Dither fish help prevent such a scenario, when there's room enough for them to stay at a distance -- even if this poorly behaving parent eats them all. The mere presence of other fish in the tank will turn any suspicions either parent may have on these other fish, regardless of which fish are eating the spawn. BUT, unless you know the disposition of your dither fish, and how brave they may be in trying to get at the eggs, this method can backfire, as too relentless of an attack by beligerent dither fish, especially when there are too many, will cause the parents to give up defending their spawn seeing it as fruitless when overwhelmed, and at that time they'd may join in the feast. Yes, if the opportunity presents itself, the Ancistrus will eat the eggs. I would definitely remove it (them?). Likewise, my choice would be to remove the Guppies & Betta, unless you know you have a problem Angel pair that needs attention-refocusing. BTW, even though you won't be having this Catfish in this tank (at night -- OR day!), I strongly suggest you keep at least a dim night light on in the room (at night) -- perhaps with a small table lamp, etc., if at all possible. This will prevent the either fish of the pair from losing focus on their spawn, which would otherwise interrupt the breeding/parenting sequence. Maintaining focus means that both parents will continue the parenting behavior. Interrupting their focus means that when they lose sight of their eggs for an extended period of time they can lose track of the fact that they are in the middle of their sequence and may not recognize these eggs as their own, thus eating the eggs at first light the next morning. All too often, young inexperienced pairs tend to eat their eggs the following morning after a nightime of complete darkness. TOO -- DO NOT keep a glaring aquarium light over the spawn during the day. This is like putting a spotlight on caviar and just tempting them to eat their eggs when they're lit up like a highway billboard. The lighting should preferably be subtle, which is all's that's needed. While there are exceptional Angel pairs which show only the best of parental behavior under any circumstances, you don't know yet if your's is one. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thank you Ray! > > I didn't even think about the other fish eating their fry - I was worried about the angels attacking the fish! Good point! > > Do you think the ancistrus will eat the eggs at night? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > R, > > > > Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. > > > > Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. > > > > A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > > > > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > > > > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > > > > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > > > > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > > > > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > > > > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51566	From: haecklers	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Thank you for all that! I removed the ancistrus and the betta. There are 4 guppies - 3 females and one male. They do seem to be intimidated by the angels (which are in a 20 gallon tank - we have the 30 ready to receive them but hadn't set it up yet so now I think we'll remove the parents to the 30 gallon once the fry are big enough and let the fry have the 20 gallon tank to grow up some in). I'll try to catch the guppies tonight when the angelfish are asleep along with the spare male and move them to the 10 gallon I set up as a temporary tank. I can't tell whether the female has made a clear choice in the males -the three of them are always together and the two males are doing a lot of pushing and making a thunking sound somehow with their gills. I think she's going to let them decide among themselves. Their swimming fins are getting a bit torn but they don't seem to have done too much damage to each other. One is more attractive so I think we'll choose him since they seem pretty evenly matched. I realize a lot of angelfish pairs mess up with their first spawn so we'll just see how it goes. We do have a lamp we can leave on that's across the room from the tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Well, you can certainly expect the Angel parents to "attack" the other fish if they try to venture too close to the eggs or fry in an attempt to get a snack. This is only in defence of their spawn and a protective behavior. If the other fish learn to keep their distance, the Angels won't attack these fish any further than they consider what their territorial boundary is, but in a smaller tank, this could be most of it. > > Actually, as long as you don't mind losing at least a few fry (which would be inevitable), albeit it could be more -- depending on how many other fish are involved and these fish's disposition. If there are only a very few Guppies (and I'd guess one female Betta), and if these Guppies (and Betta) are already intimidated by the Angels, the odds then are slimmer that they'd venture too near the Angel pair and their fry -- although stragglers which travel too far from the parents may be fair game -- especially in a smaller tank. > > If this is a large tank with very few Guppies, there may be some advantage in keeping them (or at least a few) in with the Angels to act as "dither" fish, which will focus the parents' attention on these fish (as in combining forces) instead of on each other. More than occassionally when not otherwise pre-occupied with protecting their spawn from others, one or the other first-time parents may try a few eggs as a snack of their own, resulting in the other parent getting hostile towards this parent and leading to some possible serious damage. Dither fish help prevent such a scenario, when there's room enough for them to stay at a distance -- even if this poorly behaving parent eats them all. The mere presence of other fish in the tank will turn any suspicions either parent may have on these other fish, regardless of which fish are eating the spawn. BUT, unless you know the disposition of your dither fish, and how brave they may be in trying to get at the eggs, this method can backfire, as too relentless of an attack by beligerent dither fish, especially when there are too many, will cause the parents to give up defending their spawn seeing it as fruitless when overwhelmed, and at that time they'd may join in the feast. > > Yes, if the opportunity presents itself, the Ancistrus will eat the eggs. I would definitely remove it (them?). Likewise, my choice would be to remove the Guppies & Betta, unless you know you have a problem Angel pair that needs attention-refocusing. BTW, even though you won't be having this Catfish in this tank (at night -- OR day!), I strongly suggest you keep at least a dim night light on in the room (at night) -- perhaps with a small table lamp, etc., if at all possible. This will prevent the either fish of the pair from losing focus on their spawn, which would otherwise interrupt the breeding/parenting sequence. Maintaining focus means that both parents will continue the parenting behavior. Interrupting their focus means that when they lose sight of their eggs for an extended period of time they can lose track of the fact that they are in the middle of their sequence and may not recognize these eggs as their own, thus eating the eggs at first light the next morning. > > All too often, young inexperienced pairs tend to eat their eggs the following morning after a nightime of complete darkness. TOO -- DO NOT keep a glaring aquarium light over the spawn during the day. This is like putting a spotlight on caviar and just tempting them to eat their eggs when they're lit up like a highway billboard. The lighting should preferably be subtle, which is all's that's needed. While there are exceptional Angel pairs which show only the best of parental behavior under any circumstances, you don't know yet if your's is one. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51567	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Give them a nest box! Fast! LOL! Dora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51568	From: parkpac@earthlink.net	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Hi Ray, Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I did a couple of water changes to correct the low pH but I found that the main reason it was so low was that there was a dead fish underneath the wood in the back of the tank. I also added some crushed coral and put it in the Rena Filstar3. Is that the best place for it? I have some more that I can add to my tank gravel but will the addition raise the pH too quickly for the Jewels? They are eating well.and growing quickly. My water has a pH around 7.8 when it comes from the tap in Pacifica, Ca. Drops quickly but it should be fairly well buffered now. Any other thoughts or ideas? Thanks for all your help. Steve From: Ray Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:36 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Best way to raise pH slowly Steve, Most undoubtedly, your African Cichlids constist solely of Malawi species. Tanganyika cichlids would not tolerate a pH 6.2 for very long at all. Fortunately, as you're finding out, Malawi Cichlids are just little more tolerant as their natural pH range is not quite as high as Lake Tankganyika's. Still, they will not tolerate it very well long-term, and will be seen to go off their feed as a first sign of it. I have to assume that your tap water's pH is basic, as most water facilities supply. I'd suggest doing daily partial water changes to bring your pH up gradually but surely. If you could supply us with the parameters of your tap water, we could give you even better advice of how to proceed further, but not know your tap water's GH and KH (or pH) it's impossible to give more input on how to best stabilize your tank's pH above neutral. You may benefit from the addition of crushed coral or dolomite in you filter, but I can't comment on this further at this stage until knowing more. As you may now be aware, maintaining fish together having vastly different requirements should not be considered to start with, as it's difficult at best to keep them all happy. Jewel Cichlids are West African river residents, best kept in soft mildly acid water. Ray --- In mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. > > Thanks, Steve > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51569	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Congrats! I'm glad to hear someone is having some luck with their Angels. Mine continue to lay eggs periodically but they never seem to hatch (or if they do they eat the wigglers as soon as they hatch). They've only had 1 successful hatching and promptly ate all the babies, so I moved them out of my 125 gallon tank into their own 55 gallon tank, since then nothing has managed to hatch and survive. You might want to remove that 3rd Angel fish, as it will likely get beat up on by your new pair. Again, congrats :) Amber On 6/20/2011 1:28 PM, Ray wrote: > > Well, you can certainly expect the Angel parents to "attack" the other > fish if they try to venture too close to the eggs or fry in an attempt > to get a snack. This is only in defence of their spawn and a > protective behavior. If the other fish learn to keep their distance, > the Angels won't attack these fish any further than they consider what > their territorial boundary is, but in a smaller tank, this could be > most of it. > > Actually, as long as you don't mind losing at least a few fry (which > would be inevitable), albeit it could be more -- depending on how many > other fish are involved and these fish's disposition. If there are > only a very few Guppies (and I'd guess one female Betta), and if these > Guppies (and Betta) are already intimidated by the Angels, the odds > then are slimmer that they'd venture too near the Angel pair and their > fry -- although stragglers which travel too far from the parents may > be fair game -- especially in a smaller tank. > > If this is a large tank with very few Guppies, there may be some > advantage in keeping them (or at least a few) in with the Angels to > act as "dither" fish, which will focus the parents' attention on these > fish (as in combining forces) instead of on each other. More than > occassionally when not otherwise pre-occupied with protecting their > spawn from others, one or the other first-time parents may try a few > eggs as a snack of their own, resulting in the other parent getting > hostile towards this parent and leading to some possible serious > damage. Dither fish help prevent such a scenario, when there's room > enough for them to stay at a distance -- even if this poorly behaving > parent eats them all. The mere presence of other fish in the tank will > turn any suspicions either parent may have on these other fish, > regardless of which fish are eating the spawn. BUT, unless you know > the disposition of your dither fish, and how brave they may be in > trying to get at the eggs, this method can backfire, as too relentless > of an attack by beligerent dither fish, especially when there are too > many, will cause the parents to give up defending their spawn seeing > it as fruitless when overwhelmed, and at that time they'd may join in > the feast. > > Yes, if the opportunity presents itself, the Ancistrus will eat the > eggs. I would definitely remove it (them?). Likewise, my choice would > be to remove the Guppies & Betta, unless you know you have a problem > Angel pair that needs attention-refocusing. BTW, even though you won't > be having this Catfish in this tank (at night -- OR day!), I strongly > suggest you keep at least a dim night light on in the room (at night) > -- perhaps with a small table lamp, etc., if at all possible. This > will prevent the either fish of the pair from losing focus on their > spawn, which would otherwise interrupt the breeding/parenting > sequence. Maintaining focus means that both parents will continue the > parenting behavior. Interrupting their focus means that when they lose > sight of their eggs for an extended period of time they can lose track > of the fact that they are in the middle of their sequence and may not > recognize these eggs as their own, thus eating the eggs at first light > the next morning. > > All too often, young inexperienced pairs tend to eat their eggs the > following morning after a nightime of complete darkness. TOO -- DO NOT > keep a glaring aquarium light over the spawn during the day. This is > like putting a spotlight on caviar and just tempting them to eat their > eggs when they're lit up like a highway billboard. The lighting should > preferably be subtle, which is all's that's needed. While there are > exceptional Angel pairs which show only the best of parental behavior > under any circumstances, you don't know yet if your's is one. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you Ray! > > > > I didn't even think about the other fish eating their fry - I was > worried about the angels attacking the fish! Good point! > > > > Do you think the ancistrus will eat the eggs at night? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > R, > > > > > > Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised > 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the > TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning > should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for > more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a > few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for > them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for > a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day > or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. > Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is > available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the > aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. > > > > > > Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other > fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish > fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take > any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a > continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time > since the fry will continue to stray. > > > > > > A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, > and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish > and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. > Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any > other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at > least 78 o (to 80 o). > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than > dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a > bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, > they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on > the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today > and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > > > > > > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get > one today? > > > > > > > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > > > > > > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind > of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as > they're born!) > > > > > > > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have > to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > > > > > > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised > by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > > > > > > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones > that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this > spawning!!!! > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51570	From: Ray	Date: 6/20/2011
Subject: Re: Best way to raise pH slowly

Hi Steve, For starters, now that I know your tap water's pH -- which, as I first stated, I needed to know originally to be able to advise you of the use (or not) of crushed coral -- I can now tell you that you don't need to use crushed coral, and in fact it may tend to raise your pH too fast (depending on how much is used). Remember, while I said crushed coral was something you could use, depending on the parameters of your tap water, it was not I who arbitrarily and without good reason fully recommended its use. I see now that you chose to go with the other advice you were given, and have gone ahead and added these carbonates to your filter (yes, a proper place, if you needed them), but even as you're now experiencing with your tap water correcting your pH, continued PWC's with your tap water should bring your pH up to 7.8 if you do these changes often enough and in larger volumes. With Jewel Cichlids in your tank, you should not use crushed coral in your gravel, since it's uncontrollable when in the substrate. Once in the gravel, there's no way to remove it if you find it's raising the pH too much or too fast for the Jewels. Jewel Cichlids, being West African fish coming from soft acid water rivers, require just that -- soft acid water (not high basic water), although they will adapt to some degree when done slowly. Still, I don't feel that a pH of 7.8 is beneficial for them. As I understand it, the only reason you wanted to raise your pH to 8.0, was because you have Rift Lake Cichlids (most probably, Malawi Cichlids), which crushed coral would benefit when used in a controlled manner. For these Cichlids it's still best, if you find your KH and pH are still too low while having crushed coral in your filter, to place a measured amount of crushed coral in a nylon mesh bag and place it in the flow of your filter's return stream. In this way, if you find that this measured amount in this bag is too much, and raising the KH and pH too high, you can remove a measured amount of it until the pH stabilizes to where you need it (as an example, at pH 8.2). You'll note, that you should also be testing for KH, as this is the primary parameter that will be increased from the use of crushed coral, which in turn supports/induces a higher pH. Because of the vast differences in the needs of West African river Cichlids and East African Rift Lake Cichlids, these two groups of Cichlids ideally should not be mixed as it's impossible to provide the best conditions fitting the needs of both groups. If you can just maintain your pH at 7.6 though, your Rift Lake Cichlids (Malawi Cichlids) will still be happy -- they don't necessarily need a pH of 8.0 or more -- and your Jewel Cichlids will still find this higher pH tolerable even if they may not find it ideal enough to spawn in. Preferably, the Rift Lake Cichlids should have some Total Dissolved Solids (TDS), as in the calcium carbonates being dissolved from the coral, but the Jewels prefer not to have these additional minerals. If you decide on keeping the Jewels separate, as should be done, then after you find the correct amount of crushed coral used in the nylon bag to stabilize the pH at where you want it, then (and only then) may you remove this coral from the bag and add it to your gravel. While you still never stated which Rift Lake Cichlids you have, if by chance you do have any Tanganyika Cichlids in this mix, they would do best long term at a higher pH than 7.6 -- 7.8 (and additional crushed coral), at which point the Jewels should definitely be removed. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > Thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I did a couple of water changes to correct the low pH but I found that the main reason it was so low was that there was a dead fish underneath the wood in the back of the tank. I also added some crushed coral and put it in the Rena Filstar3. Is that the best place for it? I have some more that I can add to my tank gravel but will the addition raise the pH too quickly for the Jewels? > > They are eating well.and growing quickly. My water has a pH around 7.8 when it comes from the tap in Pacifica, Ca. Drops quickly but it should be fairly well buffered now. Any other thoughts or ideas? > > Thanks for all your help. > > Steve > > From: Ray > Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 6:36 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Best way to raise pH slowly > > > Steve, > > Most undoubtedly, your African Cichlids consist solely of Malawi species. Tanganyika cichlids would not tolerate a pH 6.2 for very long at all. Fortunately, as you're finding out, Malawi Cichlids are just little more tolerant as their natural pH range is not quite as high as Lake Tankganyika's. Still, they will not tolerate it very well long-term, and will be seen to go off their feed as a first sign of it. > > I have to assume that your tap water's pH is basic, as most water facilities supply. I'd suggest doing daily partial water changes to bring your pH up gradually but surely. If you could supply us with the parameters of your tap water, we could give you even better advice of how to proceed further, but not knowing your tap water's GH and KH (or pH) it's impossible to give more input on how to best stabilize your tank's pH above neutral. You may benefit from the addition of crushed coral or dolomite in you filter, but I can't comment on this further at this stage until knowing more. > > As you may now be aware, maintaining fish together having vastly different requirements should not be considered to start with, as it's difficult at best to keep them all happy. Jewel Cichlids are West African river residents, best kept in soft mildly acid water. > > Ray > > --- In mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com, <parkpac@> wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > Any ideas as to the best way to slowly raise my pH for my African cichlid tank? Tank was a community tank until the Jewels killed off everything else. The pH has dropped and I want to get it back up over 8.Right now it’s in the 6.2 range .The fish are eating well but would probably do better with a higher pH. > > > > Thanks, Steve > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51571	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

I'm curious . . . Do the adult Angels have any parenting role once the eggs are put wherever they end up? I'm wondering why, if you have other tanks, you wouldn't just remove all the other fish, parents included. That way nobody would eat the fry. Please don't take offense to my question. I'm sure there's a reason. I'm just curious. Thanks, ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:28 PM, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > Well, you can certainly expect the Angel parents to "attack" the other fish if they try to venture too close to the eggs or fry in an attempt to get a snack. This is only in defence of their spawn and a protective behavior. If the other fish learn to keep their distance, the Angels won't attack these fish any further than they consider what their territorial boundary is, but in a smaller tank, this could be most of it. > > Actually, as long as you don't mind losing at least a few fry (which would be inevitable), albeit it could be more -- depending on how many other fish are involved and these fish's disposition. If there are only a very few Guppies (and I'd guess one female Betta), and if these Guppies (and Betta) are already intimidated by the Angels, the odds then are slimmer that they'd venture too near the Angel pair and their fry -- although stragglers which travel too far from the parents may be fair game -- especially in a smaller tank. > > If this is a large tank with very few Guppies, there may be some advantage in keeping them (or at least a few) in with the Angels to act as "dither" fish, which will focus the parents' attention on these fish (as in combining forces) instead of on each other. More than occassionally when not otherwise pre-occupied with protecting their spawn from others, one or the other first-time parents may try a few eggs as a snack of their own, resulting in the other parent getting hostile towards this parent and leading to some possible serious damage. Dither fish help prevent such a scenario, when there's room enough for them to stay at a distance -- even if this poorly behaving parent eats them all. The mere presence of other fish in the tank will turn any suspicions either parent may have on these other fish, regardless of which fish are eating the spawn. BUT, unless you know the disposition of your dither fish, and how brave they may be in trying to get at the eggs, this method can backfire, as too relentless of an attack by beligerent dither fish, especially when there are too many, will cause the parents to give up defending their spawn seeing it as fruitless when overwhelmed, and at that time they'd may join in the feast. > > Yes, if the opportunity presents itself, the Ancistrus will eat the eggs. I would definitely remove it (them?). Likewise, my choice would be to remove the Guppies & Betta, unless you know you have a problem Angel pair that needs attention-refocusing. BTW, even though you won't be having this Catfish in this tank (at night -- OR day!), I strongly suggest you keep at least a dim night light on in the room (at night) -- perhaps with a small table lamp, etc., if at all possible. This will prevent the either fish of the pair from losing focus on their spawn, which would otherwise interrupt the breeding/parenting sequence. Maintaining focus means that both parents will continue the parenting behavior. Interrupting their focus means that when they lose sight of their eggs for an extended period of time they can lose track of the fact that they are in the middle of their sequence and may not recognize these eggs as their own, thus eating the eggs at first light the next morning. > > All too often, young inexperienced pairs tend to eat their eggs the following morning after a nightime of complete darkness. TOO -- DO NOT keep a glaring aquarium light over the spawn during the day. This is like putting a spotlight on caviar and just tempting them to eat their eggs when they're lit up like a highway billboard. The lighting should preferably be subtle, which is all's that's needed. While there are exceptional Angel pairs which show only the best of parental behavior under any circumstances, you don't know yet if your's is one. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you Ray! > > > > I didn't even think about the other fish eating their fry - I was worried about the angels attacking the fish! Good point! > > > > Do you think the ancistrus will eat the eggs at night? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > R, > > > > > > Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. > > > > > > Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. > > > > > > A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > > > > > > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > > > > > > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > > > > > > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > > > > > > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > > > > > > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > > > > > > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51572	From: Ray	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish are showing ovipositors, what do I do?

Yes, they do. Angelfish, just like many other Cichlids, exhibit one of the most intricate and caring parenting behavior roles that may be seen in any freshwater fishes. While the parents could be removed, the hobbyist would then be depriving themself of one of the greatest experiences in fishkeeping, in having the chance to observe this interaction of both parents and their offspring in raising their progeny. I hope this answers your question. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: > > I'm curious . . . Do the adult Angels have any parenting role once the eggs are put wherever they end up? I'm wondering why, if you have other tanks, you wouldn't just remove all the other fish, parents included. That way nobody would eat the fry. > > Please don't take offense to my question. I'm sure there's a reason. I'm just curious. > > Thanks, > ~Karlene > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Jun 20, 2011, at 4:28 PM, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > Well, you can certainly expect the Angel parents to "attack" the other fish if they try to venture too close to the eggs or fry in an attempt to get a snack. This is only in defence of their spawn and a protective behavior. If the other fish learn to keep their distance, the Angels won't attack these fish any further than they consider what their territorial boundary is, but in a smaller tank, this could be most of it. > > > > Actually, as long as you don't mind losing at least a few fry (which would be inevitable), albeit it could be more -- depending on how many other fish are involved and these fish's disposition. If there are only a very few Guppies (and I'd guess one female Betta), and if these Guppies (and Betta) are already intimidated by the Angels, the odds then are slimmer that they'd venture too near the Angel pair and their fry -- although stragglers which travel too far from the parents may be fair game -- especially in a smaller tank. > > > > If this is a large tank with very few Guppies, there may be some advantage in keeping them (or at least a few) in with the Angels to act as "dither" fish, which will focus the parents' attention on these fish (as in combining forces) instead of on each other. More than occassionally when not otherwise pre-occupied with protecting their spawn from others, one or the other first-time parents may try a few eggs as a snack of their own, resulting in the other parent getting hostile towards this parent and leading to some possible serious damage. Dither fish help prevent such a scenario, when there's room enough for them to stay at a distance -- even if this poorly behaving parent eats them all. The mere presence of other fish in the tank will turn any suspicions either parent may have on these other fish, regardless of which fish are eating the spawn. BUT, unless you know the disposition of your dither fish, and how brave they may be in trying to get at the eggs, this method can backfire, as too relentless of an attack by beligerent dither fish, especially when there are too many, will cause the parents to give up defending their spawn seeing it as fruitless when overwhelmed, and at that time they'd may join in the feast. > > > > Yes, if the opportunity presents itself, the Ancistrus will eat the eggs. I would definitely remove it (them?). Likewise, my choice would be to remove the Guppies & Betta, unless you know you have a problem Angel pair that needs attention-refocusing. BTW, even though you won't be having this Catfish in this tank (at night -- OR day!), I strongly suggest you keep at least a dim night light on in the room (at night) -- perhaps with a small table lamp, etc., if at all possible. This will prevent the either fish of the pair from losing focus on their spawn, which would otherwise interrupt the breeding/parenting sequence. Maintaining focus means that both parents will continue the parenting behavior. Interrupting their focus means that when they lose sight of their eggs for an extended period of time they can lose track of the fact that they are in the middle of their sequence and may not recognize these eggs as their own, thus eating the eggs at first light the next morning. > > > > All too often, young inexperienced pairs tend to eat their eggs the following morning after a nightime of complete darkness. TOO -- DO NOT keep a glaring aquarium light over the spawn during the day. This is like putting a spotlight on caviar and just tempting them to eat their eggs when they're lit up like a highway billboard. The lighting should preferably be subtle, which is all's that's needed. While there are exceptional Angel pairs which show only the best of parental behavior under any circumstances, you don't know yet if your's is one. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you Ray! > > > > > > I didn't even think about the other fish eating their fry - I was worried about the angels attacking the fish! Good point! > > > > > > Do you think the ancistrus will eat the eggs at night? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > Congrats on raising a pair of Angelfish (yes, I know -- you raised 3, but I'm referring to the pair). Since it appears you noticed the TWO fish's breeding tubes (unless I'm reading you wrong), spawning should be imminent. The male's breeding tube seldom is extended for more than one day before they breed; the female will extend hers for a few days before breeding. It would be best to get a breeding slate for them ASAP. I would have to guess that they may probably be looking for a breeding site at this very moment -- and have been for the last day or two -- even cleaning a preferred site wherever that may be. Sometimes they'll choose a filter or heater tube if nothing else is available. Under rarer circumstances, they will choose the side of the aquarium and breed on the glass, although that's their last choice. > > > > > > > > Since you're asking for advice, I'll tell you to remove all other fish, otherwise, it will be their turn for them to eat the Angelfish fry whenever they can. If they can't get at the eggs, they will take any stragglers when they become free-swimming, which will see a continued reduction in the numbers of fry every day after this time since the fry will continue to stray. > > > > > > > > A water change at this stage will definitely help induce spawning, and would be a good idea to do, but not before removing the other fish and supplying the pair with a slate or other suitable spawning site. Do not put this slate too near the outlet of the filter or near any other current source (powerhead, etc.) Have the temperature at, at least 78 o (to 80 o). > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I've got a trio of angelfish that I raised from smaller than dime-sized in the tank with some guppies, a female betta, and a bristlenose pleco. None of the angelfish have ever bred before, they're approaching 9 months old now. Yesterday I noticed something on the two that have been hanging around together, I looked it up today and it's the ovipositor (for the female). > > > > > > > > > > There is no slate stone for them to lay eggs on, should I get one today? > > > > > > > > > > Should I remove the other angelfish? > > > > > > > > > > What about the betta and guppies? The angelfish have always kind of ignored them (except for the guppy fry that disappear as soon as they're born!) > > > > > > > > > > Should I do a water change now before they breed so I don't have to disturb them when they have the eggs? > > > > > > > > > > I want to let the parents try to raise them - they were raised by their parents so I'm hopeful they have the instincts. > > > > > > > > > > Any more advice is very much appreciated! These are fancy ones that are half platinum, so we're really looking forward to this spawning!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51573	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Mirror backing for tanks?

Our local fish stores do not carry any mirror-style backing for tanks, and that is really what I want (not extreme blue, black, or phony looking plants). Anyone know the best kind of mirror backing to use, or where to look? Thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51574	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/21/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?

Is 4mil thick enough? I don't know. http://cgi.ebay.com/MYLAR-25-50-100-ROLL-REFLECTIVE-BLACK-POLY-FILM-4-MIL-/400224536708?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item9bffb08785 ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)" <mother@...> wrote: > > Our local fish stores do not carry any mirror-style backing for tanks, > and that is really what I want (not extreme blue, black, or phony > looking plants). > > Anyone know the best kind of mirror backing to use, or where to look? > > Thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51575	From: Rei	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell which is a male and a female? Thanks for the response you will be sharing. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51576	From: Chloe	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: breeding neon tetras

I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51577	From: Dora Smith	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras

You know, I have a tank full of pristella tetras, male and female, and as far as I can tell they have never had young. Is there any way to encourage this? Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chloe" <chloelikeohman@...> To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; "Tropical fish club" <tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras >I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to >do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community >tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great. > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51578	From: haecklers	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?

Stores like Home Depot sell a window film that has either tinted or mirrored that you can apply to glass. Another choice, if you're not too picky, is to try mylar from a balloon, like cut it and use the inside. It's pretty reflective. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)" <mother@...> wrote: > > Our local fish stores do not carry any mirror-style backing for tanks, > and that is really what I want (not extreme blue, black, or phony > looking plants). > > Anyone know the best kind of mirror backing to use, or where to look? > > Thanks! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51579	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once it's approved. As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on your fish. Amber On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > I don > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > I tell > which is a male and a female? > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51580	From: Karlene	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Frustrated

I'm really getting frustrated with myself when it comes to my aquarium. My favorite fish is the Betta. I love their beauty, their peaceful (in a community) natures, and their personalities. When I was a kid we had a Betta in our tank. If I or my Mom put our finger in the tank, he would swim so that his side brushed against us, and if we lowered our hand into the tank he would swim into the cup of our hand. When I started "into" fish again, it was with a tiny 2 1/2 gallon tank with a divider, and a Betta in each side. Well, one of the Betta's was very smart, and he figured out how to squeeze past the divider to fight with the other fish. The first time he did it he won, and he beat the crap out of the other Betta. I had no idea how he'd done it at the time; I thought he'd jumped over the divider, so I was experimenting with things to put on top to keep him from doing it. A week or so later, I caught him squeezing himself into the other side. I removed him before any fight could occur, and tried to make sure the divider was really firmly seated. I thought all was well, but he again managed to get into the other side, and this time the other fish beat the crap out of him. :( At about this point I bought my 20 gallon tank. I put the instigator into the new tank, and gave the little tank and the other Betta to my Mom, where he lives happily and peacefully. I was researching and found multiple sources that said you could keep a male Betta in the same tank with females if you had more than one girl, so I added 2 girls to the tank. One of them ended up dead. I replaced her. I then found Betta #1 and one of the girls dead. I replaced both of them. The same thing happened again. I researched some more and returned the other female betta. I brought home yet another Betta, and he, too, ended up dead. I have no idea what's going on. The levels in the tank, nitrates, ammonia, etc. are fine. The first two males that died looked like something had beaten them up, but the last one looked fine, other than the fact that he was dead, of course. I'd only had him 4 days. Not one to give up too quickly, I brought home yet another Betta. I had issues in the tank for about 8 or 9 days as the Gourami bought at the same time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. I kept trying to catch him, but he was very smart, and after my first unsuccsessful attempt to nab him would hide anytime I neared the tank. He killed 1 angel and the dwarf. His temper got the best of him though. He was flat out after the other angel, and as he swam past in pursuit I was able to nab him and return him to the store. So, all the fish are living peacefully in the tank. I literally spend hours watching them, and I don't see any of them having any sort of disagreement. Yet yesterday, a week after the return of the Gourami, yet another Betta was dead. This one, too, looked perfect. The levels of everything in my tank are fine. The tank is not overcrowded, and is well planted with lots of hiding places. None of the fish are very large, and all seem to get along. And ideas? -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51581	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated

By fine (on the levels of ammonia, nitrite,nitrates) do you mean that they all read 0 (except nitrates unless you have done a lot of water changes, there will almost always be a reading for nitrates in a healthy tank, but all your other readings should be 0)? What kind of test kit are you using? are they the dip strips or the vial with liquid reagents? Also only female bettas can typically co-exist together. Males will fight with both other males AND females. You can only keep a male/female together for a short time frame, and breeders typically only do this long enough for the male/female to breed and then the female is moved back to her own tank. Females can often fight to the death as well, even if you get females from the same batch of fry. If there are a lot of plants/hiding places you can sometimes have a few females (in a large enough tank so they can each have their own territory) together somewhat peacefully. I've recently lost 2 of my female bettas out of 4 females that have been (up until now) peacefully coexisting in my 125 gallon tank. My paradise gourami is also a territorial surface breather though, so he may have also been fighting with the female bettas. Gourami's and bettas will often fight because they share the same territory in your tank, and all the angel fish I have every had have also been territorial. I currently keep my mated pair of Angel's in their own 55 gallon tank with a few red wag platty's for company and something to chase. I occasionally lose a platty (most likely because the angel killed him/her) but not very often. Fish often fight when you're not looking, trust me. LOL. All of my tanks are well established for a few years now so I know that the occasional fish losses have to be from territory issues. My Angel's go into breeding mode and the female gets super aggressive with the eggs. Amber On 6/22/2011 5:18 PM, Karlene wrote: > > I'm really getting frustrated with myself when it comes to my aquarium. > > My favorite fish is the Betta. I love their beauty, their peaceful (in a > community) natures, and their personalities. When I was a kid we had a > Betta in our tank. If I or my Mom put our finger in the tank, he would > swim > so that his side brushed against us, and if we lowered our hand into the > tank he would swim into the cup of our hand. > > When I started "into" fish again, it was with a tiny 2 1/2 gallon tank > with > a divider, and a Betta in each side. Well, one of the Betta's was very > smart, and he figured out how to squeeze past the divider to fight > with the > other fish. The first time he did it he won, and he beat the crap out of > the other Betta. I had no idea how he'd done it at the time; I thought > he'd > jumped over the divider, so I was experimenting with things to put on > top to > keep him from doing it. A week or so later, I caught him squeezing himself > into the other side. I removed him before any fight could occur, and tried > to make sure the divider was really firmly seated. I thought all was well, > but he again managed to get into the other side, and this time the other > fish beat the crap out of him. :( At about this point I bought my 20 > gallon tank. I put the instigator into the new tank, and gave the little > tank and the other Betta to my Mom, where he lives happily and peacefully. > > I was researching and found multiple sources that said you could keep > a male > Betta in the same tank with females if you had more than one girl, so I > added 2 girls to the tank. One of them ended up dead. I replaced her. I > then found Betta #1 and one of the girls dead. I replaced both of them. > The same thing happened again. I researched some more and returned the > other female betta. I brought home yet another Betta, and he, too, > ended up > dead. I have no idea what's going on. The levels in the tank, nitrates, > ammonia, etc. are fine. The first two males that died looked like > something > had beaten them up, but the last one looked fine, other than the fact that > he was dead, of course. I'd only had him 4 days. > > Not one to give up too quickly, I brought home yet another Betta. I had > issues in the tank for about 8 or 9 days as the Gourami bought at the same > time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. I > kept > trying to catch him, but he was very smart, and after my first > unsuccsessful > attempt to nab him would hide anytime I neared the tank. He killed 1 angel > and the dwarf. His temper got the best of him though. He was flat out > after the other angel, and as he swam past in pursuit I was able to > nab him > and return him to the store. So, all the fish are living peacefully in the > tank. I literally spend hours watching them, and I don't see any of them > having any sort of disagreement. Yet yesterday, a week after the return of > the Gourami, yet another Betta was dead. This one, too, looked perfect. > The levels of everything in my tank are fine. > > The tank is not overcrowded, and is well planted with lots of hiding > places. None of the fish are very large, and all seem to get along. And > ideas? > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51582	From: Bill	Date: 6/22/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated

Only one question.... where are you getting your fish? Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Karlene <tarkom@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, June 22, 2011 9:18:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Frustrated I'm really getting frustrated with myself when it comes to my aquarium. My favorite fish is the Betta. I love their beauty, their peaceful (in a community) natures, and their personalities. When I was a kid we had a Betta in our tank. If I or my Mom put our finger in the tank, he would swim so that his side brushed against us, and if we lowered our hand into the tank he would swim into the cup of our hand. When I started "into" fish again, it was with a tiny 2 1/2 gallon tank with a divider, and a Betta in each side. Well, one of the Betta's was very smart, and he figured out how to squeeze past the divider to fight with the other fish. The first time he did it he won, and he beat the crap out of the other Betta. I had no idea how he'd done it at the time; I thought he'd jumped over the divider, so I was experimenting with things to put on top to keep him from doing it. A week or so later, I caught him squeezing himself into the other side. I removed him before any fight could occur, and tried to make sure the divider was really firmly seated. I thought all was well, but he again managed to get into the other side, and this time the other fish beat the crap out of him. :( At about this point I bought my 20 gallon tank. I put the instigator into the new tank, and gave the little tank and the other Betta to my Mom, where he lives happily and peacefully. I was researching and found multiple sources that said you could keep a male Betta in the same tank with females if you had more than one girl, so I added 2 girls to the tank. One of them ended up dead. I replaced her. I then found Betta #1 and one of the girls dead. I replaced both of them. The same thing happened again. I researched some more and returned the other female betta. I brought home yet another Betta, and he, too, ended up dead. I have no idea what's going on. The levels in the tank, nitrates, ammonia, etc. are fine. The first two males that died looked like something had beaten them up, but the last one looked fine, other than the fact that he was dead, of course. I'd only had him 4 days. Not one to give up too quickly, I brought home yet another Betta. I had issues in the tank for about 8 or 9 days as the Gourami bought at the same time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. I kept trying to catch him, but he was very smart, and after my first unsuccsessful attempt to nab him would hide anytime I neared the tank. He killed 1 angel and the dwarf. His temper got the best of him though. He was flat out after the other angel, and as he swam past in pursuit I was able to nab him and return him to the store. So, all the fish are living peacefully in the tank. I literally spend hours watching them, and I don't see any of them having any sort of disagreement. Yet yesterday, a week after the return of the Gourami, yet another Betta was dead. This one, too, looked perfect. The levels of everything in my tank are fine. The tank is not overcrowded, and is well planted with lots of hiding places. None of the fish are very large, and all seem to get along. And ideas? -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51583	From: kuradi8	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated

> Karlene wrote: > > ...the Gourami bought at the same time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. > I was under the impression that those fish are not compatible with each other. I have always thought: = Gouramis are territorial and surprisingly aggressive. = Angels should only be kept with other angels that they have grown up with. = Bettas are solitary. (I have good luck keeping two in separate but side-by-side tanks.) ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51584	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated

Betta, angels, gourami - are a iffy fish to get along with others, you luck into if they do. Same as housing more then 1 betta, it is the risk  you take, fish eat fish world. ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 7:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Frustrated   > Karlene wrote: > > ...the Gourami bought at the same time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. > I was under the impression that those fish are not compatible with each other. I have always thought: = Gouramis are territorial and surprisingly aggressive. = Angels should only be kept with other angels that they have grown up with. = Bettas are solitary. (I have good luck keeping two in separate but side-by-side tanks.) ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51585	From: Donita	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras

I too would love to breed them I would love to know how I have heard that the eggs need total darkness from light or the eggs die Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: >You know, I have a tank full of pristella tetras, male and female, and as >far as I can tell they have never had young. Is there any way to encourage >this? > >Dora > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chloe" <chloelikeohman@...> >To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; "Tropical fish club" ><tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:24 PM >Subject: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras > > >>I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to >>do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community >>tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great. >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s >> >> >> Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >> `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> >> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to >> the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the >> SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- >> <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. >> We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. >> >> If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you >> can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the >> home page. >> >> Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >> includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email >> >> Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where >> you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. >> >> Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >> e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51586	From: haecklers	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Frustrated

There are a couple kinds of bettas, the betta imbellis (not betta splendens, which is what most pet stores sell) can live as a trio in a large tank, depending on where you get them from. Ironically, it appears in Thailand they think the imbellis are the better fighters - they act timid then come from an unexpected direction to kill their opponent. I've raised one spawn of bettas. All can be well with the fish that are used to each other but even the females will quickly kill a "stranger" that winds up in their midst. They can pull off gills, disembowel, or even ram their opponent (tho ramming is more a technique of gouramis). My gourami parents have killed a few fish that were unlucky enough to be near a wall when rammed by the gourami - I think they burst their internal organs when they do that - they look fine on the outside but are certainly very dead. When I put some small betta females in an angelfish tank, I was surprised when my juvenile angelfish went into hunting mode and didn't leave the smallest betta alone until they had killed and eaten her. They were living peacefully with guppies half her size! (They do eat the babies tho). I'd never seen them be hostile to another fish before, but they are real hunters! My pearl gouramis haven't shown any interest in harming bettas (I only put females in a community tank, the males are too slow to escape from a grumpy fish). When they are nesting, tho, they will chase any fish that approaches their nest or the half the tank where the nest is (the top half, that is). Some other kinds of gouramis will go after bettas, tho. They are closely related to bettas so the bettas may stimulate their territorial instincts. If you really want those kinds of fish together, you might be better off starting with really small young ones so they grow up together. You can keep multiple bettas together if you can find someone who breeds them and get siblings that haven't been separated. I had unrelated female bettas together for awhile successfully, but there were a lot of plants and hiding places so they could get out of sight from each other, also one was much larger and it was her territory. She was living with other fish in a peaceful setting, and the ones I added were much smaller. She looked them over then decided they were no threat to her supremacy and decided to simply ignore them. They were in my gourami tank with the breeding pearl gouramis. I hope this helps! - Renate --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > > I'm really getting frustrated with myself when it comes to my aquarium. > > My favorite fish is the Betta. I love their beauty, their peaceful (in a > community) natures, and their personalities. When I was a kid we had a > Betta in our tank. If I or my Mom put our finger in the tank, he would swim > so that his side brushed against us, and if we lowered our hand into the > tank he would swim into the cup of our hand. > > When I started "into" fish again, it was with a tiny 2 1/2 gallon tank with > a divider, and a Betta in each side. Well, one of the Betta's was very > smart, and he figured out how to squeeze past the divider to fight with the > other fish. The first time he did it he won, and he beat the crap out of > the other Betta. I had no idea how he'd done it at the time; I thought he'd > jumped over the divider, so I was experimenting with things to put on top to > keep him from doing it. A week or so later, I caught him squeezing himself > into the other side. I removed him before any fight could occur, and tried > to make sure the divider was really firmly seated. I thought all was well, > but he again managed to get into the other side, and this time the other > fish beat the crap out of him. :( At about this point I bought my 20 > gallon tank. I put the instigator into the new tank, and gave the little > tank and the other Betta to my Mom, where he lives happily and peacefully. > > I was researching and found multiple sources that said you could keep a male > Betta in the same tank with females if you had more than one girl, so I > added 2 girls to the tank. One of them ended up dead. I replaced her. I > then found Betta #1 and one of the girls dead. I replaced both of them. > The same thing happened again. I researched some more and returned the > other female betta. I brought home yet another Betta, and he, too, ended up > dead. I have no idea what's going on. The levels in the tank, nitrates, > ammonia, etc. are fine. The first two males that died looked like something > had beaten them up, but the last one looked fine, other than the fact that > he was dead, of course. I'd only had him 4 days. > > Not one to give up too quickly, I brought home yet another Betta. I had > issues in the tank for about 8 or 9 days as the Gourami bought at the same > time was terrorizing the dwarf gourami, the angelfish and the betta. I kept > trying to catch him, but he was very smart, and after my first unsuccsessful > attempt to nab him would hide anytime I neared the tank. He killed 1 angel > and the dwarf. His temper got the best of him though. He was flat out > after the other angel, and as he swam past in pursuit I was able to nab him > and return him to the store. So, all the fish are living peacefully in the > tank. I literally spend hours watching them, and I don't see any of them > having any sort of disagreement. Yet yesterday, a week after the return of > the Gourami, yet another Betta was dead. This one, too, looked perfect. > The levels of everything in my tank are fine. > > The tank is not overcrowded, and is well planted with lots of hiding > places. None of the fish are very large, and all seem to get along. And > ideas? > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51587	From: Bill	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras

Total darkness is not needed.. To stimulate breeding.. isolate a fem (fuller body) and a male (slimmer profile).. Place them in a 10 G tank with PH 7.0 and temps approaching 80 degrees. I filled the bottom with marbles so that the fem cannot get at the eggs. In the morning, turn on a LOW-LEVEL light. They should go to town soon after. After spawning, remove the female from the tank. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donita <njaquaunderworld@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 23, 2011 12:24:23 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras I too would love to breed them I would love to know how I have heard that the eggs need total darkness from light or the eggs die Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: >You know, I have a tank full of pristella tetras, male and female, and as >far as I can tell they have never had young. Is there any way to encourage >this? > >Dora > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chloe" <chloelikeohman@...> >To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; "Tropical fish club" ><tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:24 PM >Subject: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras > > >>I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to >>do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community >>tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great. >> >> ------------------------------------ >> >> AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s >> >> >> Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >> `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> >> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to >> the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the >> SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- >> <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. >> We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. >> >> If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you >> can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the >> home page. >> >> Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >> includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email >> >> Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where >> you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. >> >> Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >> e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >> >> >> >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51588	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: Mirror backing for tanks?

Thanks, I found an eBay aquarium supply place that sells the silver backing in many sizes, waiting for it to arrive. laurie (Mother Mastiff) Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51589	From: Donita	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras

How long will it take the eggs to hatch? If I have other females do I put her on with the previous male. Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: >Total darkness is not needed.. To stimulate breeding.. isolate a fem (fuller >body) and a male (slimmer profile).. Place them in a 10 G tank with PH 7.0 and >temps approaching 80 degrees. I filled the bottom with marbles so that the fem >cannot get at the eggs. In the morning, turn on a LOW-LEVEL light. They should >go to town soon after. After spawning, remove the female from the tank. Bill >in Va. > > > >________________________________ >From: Donita <njaquaunderworld@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, June 23, 2011 12:24:23 PM >Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras > > >I too would love to breed them I would love to know how I have heard that the >eggs need total darkness from light or the eggs die > >Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > >>You know, I have a tank full of pristella tetras, male and female, and as >>far as I can tell they have never had young. Is there any way to encourage >>this? >> >>Dora >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Chloe" <chloelikeohman@...> >>To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; "Tropical fish club" >><tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:24 PM >>Subject: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras >> >> >>>I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to >>>do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community >>>tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great. >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s >>> >>> >>> Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >>> `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> >>> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to >>> the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the >>> SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- >>> <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. >>> We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. >>> >>> If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you >>> can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the >>> home page. >>> >>> Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >>> includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email >>> >>> Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where >>> you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. >>> >>> Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >>> e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51590	From: Bill	Date: 6/23/2011
Subject: Re: breeding neon tetras

eggs will hatch within 24 hrs.. they they need tiny food!>.Cooked egg yoke... infusoria... then on to newly hatched brine shrimp after a week to ten days.. Good luck!.. Bill in Va ________________________________ From: Donita <njaquaunderworld@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, June 23, 2011 3:24:59 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras How long will it take the eggs to hatch? If I have other females do I put her on with the previous male. Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: >Total darkness is not needed.. To stimulate breeding.. isolate a fem (fuller >body) and a male (slimmer profile).. Place them in a 10 G tank with PH 7.0 and >temps approaching 80 degrees. I filled the bottom with marbles so that the fem >cannot get at the eggs. In the morning, turn on a LOW-LEVEL light. They should > >go to town soon after. After spawning, remove the female from the tank. Bill >in Va. > > > >________________________________ >From: Donita <njaquaunderworld@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Thu, June 23, 2011 12:24:23 PM >Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras > > >I too would love to breed them I would love to know how I have heard that the >eggs need total darkness from light or the eggs die > >Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > >>You know, I have a tank full of pristella tetras, male and female, and as >>far as I can tell they have never had young. Is there any way to encourage >>this? >> >>Dora >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Chloe" <chloelikeohman@...> >>To: "AquaticLife" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com>; "Tropical fish club" >><tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com> >>Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 3:24 PM >>Subject: [AquaticLife] breeding neon tetras >> >> >>>I am wanting to start breeding neon tetras and I need some info on how to >>>do so. I have 9 tetras now and they are in my 55 gallon tropical community >>>tank but I have a spare tank for the breeding. any info would be great. >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s >>> >>> >>> Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >>> `..><((((>.`..`.><((((> .`.. , .`..><((((> >>> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to >>> the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the >>> SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- >>> <((((><.`..`.<((((><.`.. , .`..<((((><`.. >>> We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. >>> >>> If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you >>> can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the >>> home page. >>> >>> Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which >>> includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email >>> >>> Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where >>> you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. >>> >>> Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual >>> e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51591	From: Rei	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, yellows, black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. -------Original Message------- From: Amber Berglund Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once it's approved. As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on your fish. Amber On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > I don > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > I tell > which is a male and a female? > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51592	From: haecklers	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

They look to me like albino red zebras. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@...> wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51593	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the pics and see if they know what they are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list Amber On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51594	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Thought rams we're smallish.  Def  cichlid, prob hybrid. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the pics and see if they know what they are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list Amber On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51595	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: API CO2 Booster

Any thoughts on the API CO2 Booster Liquid Carbon for a planted tank? I don't want to run a CO2 unit on my tanks and am just trying to help the plants. I have used Flourish in the past. Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51596	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Rams are smallish, which is why I asked how big the fish were, as a comparison. After a lot of picture searching they appear to look the most like an african zebra cichlid, possibly a hybrid. Amber On 6/24/2011 9:28 AM, Jamie arthur wrote: > > Thought rams we're smallish. Def cichlid, prob hybrid. > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 9:53 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the fish are? > > Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? > Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the > pics and see if they know what they are. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list > > Amber > > On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. > I hope > > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of > them. It > > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > > yellows, > > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: Amber Berglund > > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > > cichlid the > > fish are? > > > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > > it's approved. > > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > > your fish. > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > > I don > > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > > they > > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > > I tell > > > which is a male and a female? > > > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" > on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My > Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51597	From: Bill	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

I've NEVER seen a Ram that elongated.. Rams remind me of a 57 T-bird car.. nice and compact.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Jamie arthur <specialname76@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, June 24, 2011 1:28:55 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Thought rams we're smallish. Def cichlid, prob hybrid. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the pics and see if they know what they are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list Amber On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51598	From: Ray	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

They look to me, to be Lake Malawi Albino Peacocks (Aulonocara), although it's impossible to tell which one. They could be Aulonocara baenschi, A. jacobfreibergi, A. Maylandi, A. stuartgranti, A. steveni, or and of the other Peacocks having an albino form in the hobby. As they're mouthbrooders, they would not breed with Blood Parrot Cichlids (substrate spawners). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@...> wrote: > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > which is a male and a female? > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51599	From: oranjedee	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: intro & oscars

hi. i'm oranjedee and i am re-entering the world of tropical fish. the last 6/7 years i have been taking care of my elderly parents and tanks were out of the question. one of my regrets about my quick move to my parents, i was unable to move my 100 and 150 gallon tanks. i had a friend who worked at setting up ponds and office tanks so she had access to a lot of tanks and she gave these to me (for free). she also was responsible for my one and only try at salt water. she was also getting live coral etc. so when i added a, not too healthy, anome (sp) to my tank and it wiped out my entire salt water experience. luckily my expense was minimal, but it could have been crippling. but now i am on my purchase power, so i was going to get back slowly. surprise!! i went to a garage sale and was given two, 5 year old black and red oscars for free. they are gigantic. i had always wanted to have a tank with a couple large fish in it. these are it. they are beautiful. at the moment, i have them set up in a 100 gallon, rubber maid cattle water. never been used. but it means i have to go looking for a 150 tank. do they make a show tank that large? that brings me to my first question. do oscars jump? i have read some, and watched some videos on oscars but i will be asking a lot of questions. i have to get back up to speed. oranje

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51600	From: Bill	Date: 6/24/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars

Yes they make big tanks today.. in fact I bought the contest of a seafood resturaunt going out of business.. and one of the tanks was a 155 I'm thinking of setting up as my discus tank... They aint cheap!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: oranjedee <oranjedee@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 1:06:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] intro & oscars hi. i'm oranjedee and i am re-entering the world of tropical fish. the last 6/7 years i have been taking care of my elderly parents and tanks were out of the question. one of my regrets about my quick move to my parents, i was unable to move my 100 and 150 gallon tanks. i had a friend who worked at setting up ponds and office tanks so she had access to a lot of tanks and she gave these to me (for free). she also was responsible for my one and only try at salt water. she was also getting live coral etc. so when i added a, not too healthy, anome (sp) to my tank and it wiped out my entire salt water experience. luckily my expense was minimal, but it could have been crippling. but now i am on my purchase power, so i was going to get back slowly. surprise!! i went to a garage sale and was given two, 5 year old black and red oscars for free. they are gigantic. i had always wanted to have a tank with a couple large fish in it. these are it. they are beautiful. at the moment, i have them set up in a 100 gallon, rubber maid cattle water. never been used. but it means i have to go looking for a 150 tank. do they make a show tank that large? that brings me to my first question. do oscars jump? i have read some, and watched some videos on oscars but i will be asking a lot of questions. i have to get back up to speed. oranje [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51601	From: Ray	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars

Hi Oranje, welcome to the list and welcome back to the world of tropical fish. Best of luck with your new Oscars. Yes, tanks are made not only in 150 gallons, but in much larger sizes as well. Almost any fish can jump -- including Oscars. While it may be unexpected of them, it only takes one time -- be it tomorrow, next week or two years from now. Once they jump, and if your not right there to place them back in their water, it's all over for them. You need to prepare for this possibility and to guard against it. Keep a top on their tank, keep their water level lower or at least put a barrier around the perimeter of the top (fish jump at the corners and/or at the sides or ends -- very rarely from the middle). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "oranjedee" <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > hi. i'm oranjedee and i am re-entering the world of tropical fish. the last 6/7 years i have been taking care of my elderly parents and tanks were out of the question. > > one of my regrets about my quick move to my parents, i was unable to move my 100 and 150 gallon tanks. i had a friend who worked at setting up ponds and office tanks so she had access to a lot of tanks and she gave these to me (for free). she also was responsible for my one and only try at salt water. she was also getting live coral etc. so when i added a, not too healthy, anome (sp) to my tank and it wiped out my entire salt water experience. luckily my expense was minimal, but it could have been crippling. but now i am on my purchase power, so i was going to get back slowly. > > surprise!! i went to a garage sale and was given two, 5 year old black and red oscars for free. they are gigantic. i had always wanted to have a tank with a couple large fish in it. these are it. they are beautiful. at the moment, i have them set up in a 100 gallon, rubber maid cattle water. never been used. but it means i have to go looking for a 150 tank. do they make a show tank that large? > > that brings me to my first question. do oscars jump? i have read some, and watched some videos on oscars but i will be asking a lot of questions. i have to get back up to speed. oranje >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51602	From: Bill	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: intro & oscars

Jumping Fish: a couple of days ago while transporting 5-7 inch koi (15 of them) from a tank to my new pond, with only 5 inches of water in a 3 gallon bucket, they found no problem at all launching themselves over a foot into the air and out of the bucket.. Luckily they landed in my lawn and all are doing fine! Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 4:53:45 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: intro & oscars Hi Oranje, welcome to the list and welcome back to the world of tropical fish. Best of luck with your new Oscars. Yes, tanks are made not only in 150 gallons, but in much larger sizes as well. Almost any fish can jump -- including Oscars. While it may be unexpected of them, it only takes one time -- be it tomorrow, next week or two years from now. Once they jump, and if your not right there to place them back in their water, it's all over for them. You need to prepare for this possibility and to guard against it. Keep a top on their tank, keep their water level lower or at least put a barrier around the perimeter of the top (fish jump at the corners and/or at the sides or ends -- very rarely from the middle). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "oranjedee" <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > hi. i'm oranjedee and i am re-entering the world of tropical fish. the last >6/7 years i have been taking care of my elderly parents and tanks were out of >the question. > > > one of my regrets about my quick move to my parents, i was unable to move my >100 and 150 gallon tanks. i had a friend who worked at setting up ponds and >office tanks so she had access to a lot of tanks and she gave these to me (for >free). she also was responsible for my one and only try at salt water. she was >also getting live coral etc. so when i added a, not too healthy, anome (sp) to >my tank and it wiped out my entire salt water experience. luckily my expense >was minimal, but it could have been crippling. but now i am on my purchase >power, so i was going to get back slowly. > > surprise!! i went to a garage sale and was given two, 5 year old black and red >oscars for free. they are gigantic. i had always wanted to have a tank with a >couple large fish in it. these are it. they are beautiful. at the moment, i >have them set up in a 100 gallon, rubber maid cattle water. never been used. >but it means i have to go looking for a 150 tank. do they make a show tank that >large? > > that brings me to my first question. do oscars jump? i have read some, and >watched some videos on oscars but i will be asking a lot of questions. i have >to get back up to speed. oranje > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51603	From: ScottW	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

I bought some like this, except the eyes are not white. The pet store called mine crystaline peacocks. I agree with Ray, good luck nailing down the exact species name. They look like a mix between the crystalline, sunshine, and albino to me. Hope that gives you some more ideas, Scott --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > They look to me, to be Lake Malawi Albino Peacocks (Aulonocara), although it's impossible to tell which one. They could be Aulonocara baenschi, A. jacobfreibergi, A. Maylandi, A. stuartgranti, A. steveni, or and of the other Peacocks having an albino form in the hobby. As they're mouthbrooders, they would not breed with Blood Parrot Cichlids (substrate spawners). > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@> wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51604	From: ScottW	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: baby peacocks

I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? Thank you, Scott

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51605	From: Trycya	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as ever, but this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it to heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but it almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find any pics of it to see

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51606	From: Trycya	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: yo-yo loach help pt. 2

ok thinking not anchor worm since I do not see anything hanging on him, but I do have a severe snail problem that has me considering a total tear down and replacing all the substrate... could it possibly be a sore caused by the snails? He is the only one I see with a sore.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51607	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/25/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Scott, The OB is already a hybrid and it looks like two other kinds of peacock are now thrown into the mix. Many cichlid keepers have a disdain for hybrid cichlids. Most fish keepers like to have an idea of what we have in our tanks. The OB is already an Mbuna Peacock hybrid and now it sounds like you are mixing in two other kinds of peacock. Four way hybrid? I had never heard of "Crystalline" peacock until I you mentioned it. Not sure what is in it's back ground as far as genetics? I try not to even put different peacock tanks side by side in case someone jumps from tank to tank(it happens). I love my lemon Jacobfreibergi and would be irritated if I found out they were mixed with something else. I met the importer/breeder and was able to pick them from his livestock on his fish farm. Going in to a store and selling hybrids may be difficult, I know of store owners that won't even carry them. You will get more for your fish if you can point at them and say those are XYZ auloncara from this collection point or reef on Lake Malawi. If you look at places like http://www.wetspottropicalfish.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=66 or http://www.davesfish.com/ you can see that both owners go to great length to identify their fish for their customers. -Mike PS my local aquarium society will not allow hybrids in their monthly auction for the last 25+ years. -----Original Message----- From: ScottW <kissinmera@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Jun 25, 2011 6:30 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] baby peacocks I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? Thank you, Scott

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51608	From: Ray	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Scott, While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > Thank you, > > Scott >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51609	From: Ray	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

The white coloration of the eyes in the photos of these "mystery" fish is undoubtedly due to the reflection of the camera flash, and not the true color of the eyes. Being albino though -- as their appearance seems to indicate -- there is no pigmentation in the eyes so all of the flash gets reflected back, making it look like the opaque "stare" of a long-dead fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I bought some like this, except the eyes are not white. The pet store called mine crystaline peacocks. I agree with Ray, good luck nailing down the exact species name. They look like a mix between the crystalline, sunshine, and albino to me. > > Hope that gives you some more ideas, > > Scott > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > They look to me, to be Lake Malawi Albino Peacocks (Aulonocara), although it's impossible to tell which one. They could be Aulonocara baenschi, A. jacobfreibergi, A. Maylandi, A. stuartgranti, A. steveni, or and of the other Peacocks having an albino form in the hobby. As they're mouthbrooders, they would not breed with Blood Parrot Cichlids (substrate spawners). > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@> wrote: > > > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > > > which is a male and a female? > > > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51610	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : ( _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Scott, While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > Thank you, > > Scott > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51611	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Hi, If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong sea or rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation so you will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure there are no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size tank you have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or protruding in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture will tell us a whole lot more. John<o)))< On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > ** > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as ever, but > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it to > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but it > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find any > pics of it to see > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51612	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding or cross-breeding... There are reconnized 3 types of Discus... what some consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : ( _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Scott, While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > Thank you, > > Scott > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51613	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Bill. I have F 1 and F 2 fish. in the past I have kept wild caught fish as well. Went on a collecting trip to Peri. pretty damn sure about the fish I have being pure strains. Mike -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jun 26, 2011 11:38 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding or cross-breeding... There are reconnized 3 types of Discus... what some consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : ( _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Scott, While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51614	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

I'm not doubting you for a second!.. It's all the others that get on their high horses, looking down on hybrid keepers when in fact most fish keepers are in fact hosting some sort of hybrid. I've only met two so far that have in fact gone on their own collection efforts to the source... all others are staking their claims of pureness based upon trust ... trust in someone they've usually not met. Way to go with a personal collection trip!.. Serious envy on my part!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 6:04:23 PM Subject: Re: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Bill. I have F 1 and F 2 fish. in the past I have kept wild caught fish as well. Went on a collecting trip to Peri. pretty damn sure about the fish I have being pure strains. Mike -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jun 26, 2011 11:38 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding or cross-breeding... There are reconnized 3 types of Discus... what some consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : ( _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Scott, While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , "ScottW" <kissinmera@...> wrote: > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > Thank you, > > Scott > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_19ab2db2-bb8a-4b09-ae07-2dbbf0c08578 #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51615	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Are they compatible mate for blood parrot cichlid? How can we tell which is male and which is a female? I placed them in the 30 gal and they were there for like 3 days and the BPs didn't even care if they were there. Then they just acted wild today, swimming radically and sometimes upside down so I transfer them back to the other aquarium and they were ok now and swimming right. -------Original Message------- From: haecklers Date: 6/24/2011 3:55:07 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? They look to me like albino red zebras. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@...> wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, yellows > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51616	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Amber, they are about 3 to 4 inches. Aren't rams smaller than those? -------Original Message------- From: Amber Berglund Date: 6/24/2011 6:53:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the pics and see if they know what they are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list Amber On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51617	From: Rei	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Their eyes are red in real but in the picture it came out white. -------Original Message------- From: ScottW Date: 6/25/2011 6:35:43 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? I bought some like this, except the eyes are not white. The pet store called mine crystaline peacocks. I agree with Ray, good luck nailing down the exact species name. They look like a mix between the crystalline, sunshine, and albino to me. Hope that gives you some more ideas, Scott --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > They look to me, to be Lake Malawi Albino Peacocks (Aulonocara), although it's impossible to tell which one. They could be Aulonocara baenschi, A. jacobfreibergi, A. Maylandi, A. stuartgranti, A. steveni, or and of the other Peacocks having an albino form in the hobby. As they're mouthbrooders they would not breed with Blood Parrot Cichlids (substrate spawners). > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@> wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51618	From: Bill	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

I;m pretty sure they aren't rams.. No expert just breeding them... Bill ________________________________ From: Rei <lovemoako@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 10:49:57 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Amber, they are about 3 to 4 inches. Aren't rams smaller than those? -------Original Message------- From: Amber Berglund Date: 6/24/2011 6:53:48 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Those look like Ram's to me, but I may be wrong. How large are they? Here is a link for the rest of the group so other people can look at the pics and see if they know what they are. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1263841298/pic/list Amber On 6/23/2011 6:09 PM, Rei wrote: > > Amber, it should be under rei tremor's fish if it will be approved. I hope > someone could identify what type of fish is that one. I have 2 of them. It > was in the cichlid aquarium in the pet store. They had some blues, > yellows, > black and white striped, and some blood parrots in that aquarium I am > guessing it is 70 gallon or so in capacity. > > > > > -------Original Message------- > > From: Amber Berglund > Date: 06/22/11 15:49:39 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Can I post a pic and ask what type of > cichlid the > fish are? > > Sure that's a great way to get help with identification on fish. > Go ahead and add your photos under the group photos section of the > aquaticlife yahoo group site and send the group a link of the photo once > it's approved. > As soon as it's identified I'm sure someone can help with more advice on > your fish. > > Amber > > > On 6/22/2011 1:15 AM, Rei wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and > > I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what > they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can > > I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > e-mails > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51619	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/26/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic (see web pages please)

Blood Parrots rarely are successful breeding among themselves. These hybrids are usually created from the breeding of non hybrid fish or other hybrids. (flowerhorn parrotfish are a good frankenfish example.) There is a lot more to breeding red parrots than putting another cichlid in the tank with them. I have not looked at the pic but from others comments if they are in the tank with an African cichlid I would say your chances are virtually zero. Different species of fish give off different signals or behaviors and the other fish may not even know the other fish is attempting to breed. In other words they don't speak the same language. You seem interested in breeding fish. Save yourself some heartache and try and breed a pure strain of fish. A lot less frustration, trial and error and mystery. Also buyers will have an interest if they can identify the fish you are selling. And believe me if you were to successfully breed fish like parrots you would have more offspring than you know what to do with. Check out Dr. Ron Coleman's pages on parrot fish and hybrids. http://cichlidresearch.com/parrot.html http://cichlidresearch.com/hybrids.html -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Rei <lovemoako@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Jun 26, 2011 7:46 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are? Are they compatible mate for blood parrot cichlid? How can we tell which is male and which is a female? I placed them in the 30 gal and they were there for like 3 days and the BPs didn't even care if they were there. Then they just acted wild today, swimming radically and sometimes upside down so I transfer them back to the other aquarium and they were ok now and swimming right.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51620	From: haecklers	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Free Stuff!

Just a heads-up if anyone lives near West Chester, PA, I'm breaking down my 55 gallon and giving away all the cichlids - 1 red zebra (female) 1 albino red zebra (??) 2 mbuna auratus melanochromis (female but one's mostly black) 1 kenyi (male) 2 bala sharks 1 large male convict We've also got a featherfin squeaker (Synodontis eupterusk) in that tank that I'd like to get $15 for, we paid $20 and have had it awhile now so it's around 4"-5". I think that's a good deal. We also have free pearl gouramis to a good home, raised from fry and now 1.5" - 2". They get 5" when mature, need at least 20 gallons, and breed like crazy! Free snails - acute bladder and invasive horrible ramshorns that kill plants, also MTS. Free baby marmokreb self-cloning crayfish, as long as you promise to not release them outdoors (they can become invasive). Free duckweed. :)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51621	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Hi Bill, Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in > Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > ( > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Scott, > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51622	From: Bill	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the beginning.. i.e. evolution..No specie evolved independently. Every fish is tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Hi Bill, Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in >one > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill >in > > Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > ( > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Scott, > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51623	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

One thing I noticed is that nobody has yet mentioned blood parrot cichlids are a hybrid of South American/Central American cichlids, which are not going to breed with African cichlids such as the peacocks. If anything, the African cichlids are more likely to stress and even chew up on the blood parrot cichlids. Because of the shape and fin style of the blood parrots, they are very vulnerable to other fish that are faster, streamlined, aggressive. Because of the mouth shape of the blood parrot they have less ability to fight back when under attack. Another difference between the blood parrots and African cichlids is environmental needs. The lineage of blood parrots comes from much softer water than the African cichlids. Some people may think that a cichlid is a cichlid, and because of that they are compatible and/or can breed with each other. That is simply untrue. Different strains of cichlids are not all mix and match. The other thing you should know is that the majority of male blood parrot cichlids are sterile. The chances of getting one that isn't are very slim. This has to do with their hybridization/genetic make up. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@...> wrote: > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > which is a male and a female? > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51624	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Bill, Yes, how true, no species evolved independently -- not even us. Every species of fish also had other species of fish in its environment, either supportive or detrimental to its welfare, and exerting either a pro or con influence upon it. The environment, and these other fish species, had caused the species to evolve to meet these influences if it was going to succeed. In meeting these influences, almost every species of fish living today succeeded only as a result of taking advantage of mutations as they appear -- whenever these mutations served the species to a better advantage than how the species evolved to up until that point. Mutations in the wild are an ongoing function in the process of evolution. There may have been 100's of mutations appearing in wild Guppies over the millenia, but if most of them did not advance the species in its being more successful in its survival, it was not continued as it died out due to it being less successful. Perhaps the mutation left the species -- or at least these individuals having the mutation -- more vulnerable to predation. As this would certainly not promote the species in its successful survival, the species did not advance, using this mutation so it was not incorporated (was not passed down to) in future generations -- at least not as expressed (as outwardly visually obvious). Mutations don't only happen in our aquariums. Many of the same mutations that have been periodically appearing in nature also happen in the aquarium, but if they're of a disadvantage in nature they are soon eliminated. Albino individuals lacking in pigmentation and appearing white happen in nature as often as in the aquarium; probably even more so since a wild population would have a greater chance to eventually produce such a mutation. But a white individual in nature is going to stand out like a sore thumb and be one of the first to get eaten. Long-finned fish happen occasionally in nature too. If the gene for this (or for ANY) mutation wasn't carried by at least a few individuals in nature, then it would never suddenly appear at times in the aquarium. It's just that an extremely small percentage of individuals carry such a gene for a mutation, and it remains recessive (never shows itself physically) until it by chance mates with a similar individual in nature -- or is line bred in the aquarium with very closely related siblings. As we know, any longer-finned fish in nature is going to be slower, and be caught by a predator more easily. As this is not an advantage to the species, it is eliminated -- at least for the time being -- with such individuals being eaten. The gene will persist (as recessive, of course) in a few other individuals. IF there ever comes a time when their predators die out, move on or prefer other items to eat (their predators may have mutated to an animal no longer liking fish to eat), then the long-finned mutation may be beneficial in nature and the next time it shows, it may continue to breed uninhibited to the extent that it's found to be more successful than its previous form (which then falls by the wayside as this new form takes over). WE are still evolving, but the changes are slow. There is speciation occurring right now in Lake Malawi, and every other African Rift Lake. Just because we see these fish as they've evolved to their present appearance doesn't mean that they've stopped evolving -- although each species evolves at a different rate, depending on the influences of its environment. As an example, Pseudotropheus williamsi is known to be one of the rarer species in the lake. It prefers somewhat deeper water and is often found in the company of Metriaclima zebra. As Metriaclima zebra also prefers this somewhat deeper water, they are outcompeting the Ps. williamsi for food (M. zebra is a larger fish), forcing Ps. williamsi to inhabit shallower water than it normally likes -- and in turn, forcing it to modify its diet. As Ps. williamsi is not very successful in its preferred range (deeper water), it is also not as prolific. The numbers of them inhabiting the shallower range is more limited. On the other hand, the populations of Ps. williamsi found in quieter coves where M. zebra is in fewer numbers are being more successful and are found in greater numbers here even though they are having to change their feeding habits -- and they are evolving to take full advantage of this opportunity. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the > beginning.. i.e. evolution..No species evolved independently. Every fish is > tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and > adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is > nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > Hi Bill, > > Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might > only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of > hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if > this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. > > > As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been > modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make > such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. > I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly > through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them > hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger > Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and > albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT > hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation > within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the > normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same > species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are > developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not > bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various > varieties (breeds) look different from one another. > > Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which > ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of > Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, > do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs > of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two > different locations of the same species? > > > Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in > this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most > universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon > aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. > Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and > the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown > Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus > aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black > bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven > fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. > > > Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants > (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, > 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the > subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, > 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi > (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack > Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira > recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. > a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, > Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo > (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, > Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. > aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). > > > Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, > and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding > (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the > others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. > aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of > S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred > strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. > So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. > > Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with > 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and > always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we > seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now > most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not > being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which > may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, > Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does > not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties > aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by > selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy > these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild > form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other > species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet > familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color > morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this > topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. > > There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet > which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. > The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red > Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between > the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus > maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus > variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs > their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us > already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild > form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild > Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium > strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive > (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are > occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. > > > Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish > keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs > (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, > in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby > but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they > are almost identical in outward appearance. > > With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake > Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as > species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by > Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes > for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be > improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for > example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara > jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, > not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred > only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding > generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with > hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, > with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There > are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species > with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily > polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are > being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may > be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore > essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming > more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) > and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think > we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from > now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to > enjoy. > > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in > >one > > > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill > >in > > > > Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > > ( > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > Scott, > > > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51625	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Bill I would argue that it is speciation and not hybridization. Because they start from a common ancestor does not mean it is hybridization. Mike -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 9:40 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the beginning.. i.e. evolution..No specie evolved independently. Every fish is tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Hi Bill, Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in >one > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill >in > > Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > ( > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Scott, > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51626	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: Can I post a pic and ask what type of cichlid the fish are?

Yes, I've already stated this in my message from June 24 at 7:41 PM -- that Blood Parrot Cichlids and Malawi Peacock Cichlids will not spawn -- as (for one thing) Blood Parrot Cichlids are substrate spawners, while Rift Lake Cichlids are mouthbrooders. I did not mention though, that Blood Parrot Cichlids are hybrids, assuming everyone by now must know this. According to a link that Moderator Mike Gale supplied, it was stated the mouthbrooders and substrate spawners have been known to hydridize, but it's beyond me how they would. For one thing, in general, New World Cichlids do not recognize Old World Rift Lake Cichlids' signals -- not to mention their very different spawning behaviors. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > One thing I noticed is that nobody has yet mentioned blood parrot cichlids are a hybrid of South American/Central American cichlids, which are not going to breed with African cichlids such as the peacocks. If anything, the African cichlids are more likely to stress and even chew up on the blood parrot cichlids. Because of the shape and fin style of the blood parrots, they are very vulnerable to other fish that are faster, streamlined, aggressive. Because of the mouth shape of the blood parrot they have less ability to fight back when under attack. > > Another difference between the blood parrots and African cichlids is environmental needs. The lineage of blood parrots comes from much softer water than the African cichlids. Some people may think that a cichlid is a cichlid, and because of that they are compatible and/or can breed with each other. That is simply untrue. Different strains of cichlids are not all mix and match. > > The other thing you should know is that the majority of male blood parrot cichlids are sterile. The chances of getting one that isn't are very slim. This has to do with their hybridization/genetic make up. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Rei" <lovemoako@> wrote: > > > > I have some blood parrot cichlids and I bought two other cichlids and I don > > t know what type are they. If I post a pic, can someone tell me what they > > are? Can this fish breed with the blood parrot cichlids? Also how can I tell > > which is a male and a female? > > > > Thanks for the response you will be sharing. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51627	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Sir Thank you very much,Such exhaustive knowledge about aquarium fishes, simply awesome. Cheers Himanshu Mumbai,India Via BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:24:41 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Hi Bill, Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in > Va. > > > >________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > ( > >_____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Scott, > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51628	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

You're very welcome; it was my pleasure. Glad you enjoyed the read. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > Sir > > Thank you very much,Such exhaustive knowledge about aquarium fishes, simply awesome. > > Cheers > Himanshu > Mumbai,India > Via BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 16:24:41 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Hi Bill, > > Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. > > As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. > > Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? > > Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. > > Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). > > Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. > > Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. > > There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. > > Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. > > With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in one > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill in > > Va. > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > > ( > > > >_____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > Scott, > > > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51629	From: john Lewis	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Hello Bill, Ray, and everyone else: Though it is probably true that millions (not thousands) of mutations may have resulted in new species over time it is over such a great period of time that we can't even comprehend the numbers. It's easy to rattle off 50-200 million years like it's the day before yesterday but think about how long a period of time that really is. There are all kinds of factors involved in creating different, and new, species like natural selection, genetic flow, genetic drift, isolation, habitat change, the list is endless (as nearly is the amount of time involved). It's not always a mixture of species that creates new species. I think the reason that purists are so adamant about deliberate hybridization without keeping track of where the offspring are going is that with hybrids running rampant from collection-to-collection the pure strain could be diluted enough to where it would be hard to fix the damage (at least in captive populations anyway). Though an argument could be made that most people wouldn't notice, or even care, it might make it difficult to get good care info because what they may have may not be a pure strain, and therefore, react differently to treatments and environmental setups meant for a pure breed species. Besides, why screw up what nature has produced for us. She can do it all by herself in three to five million years. Then whatever follows man can enjoy an entire new list of species to observe, study, and enjoy. I always enjoy conversations like this. I belong to a couple of paleontological groups that engage in evolutionary discussions as well. I hope everyone has a Wonderful Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:40:52 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the beginning.. i.e. evolution..No specie evolved independently. Every fish is tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks Hi Bill, Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various varieties (breeds) look different from one another. Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two different locations of the same species? Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they are almost identical in outward appearance. With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to enjoy. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in >one > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill >in > > Va. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > ( > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Scott, > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > Thank you, > > > > Scott > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51630	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

Mike, Thank you for bringing this point of Bill's message to my attention. Looks like I missed it, when trying to concentrate my point about mutations and conveying this to Bill. Taking Bill's message as a whole, I'm now left to wonder if the part -- "No species evolved independently" -- has another meaning besides the way I took it, that there are always other species in the same habitat having an influence on the species in question (BTW, the singular for species is species). If, by this, it was meant instead that all species evolved as a result of the combining of two or more species, this couldn't be further from the truth, although I would need clarification to know what Bill meant by his remark be able to know how to understand it. Allow me to add, that evolution of A species primarily resulted from A species (a SINGLE species) evolving -- on its own, through changes of its physiology to match the environment as needed as the environment changed. This was my main point in laying out how mutations in the wild enabled a species to succeed. In fairness, there was a certain amount of hybridization of wild species through evolution, which resulted in a more fit species to cope with the existing environment at the time, but this occurance was comparitively minor when considering how most species evolved. Most often, when given the choice, a species in the wild will almost always prefer to mate with its own kind. I've already gone over speciation as pertaining to a Malawi Cichlid species. This is an ongoing process -- and not due to hybridization. There was one recent isolated incident I can recall, of hybridizing in the wild by two different Central American Cichlids -- but again, man played a big part in it, when a canal was built in one of the Central American countries (I don't remember the location) between one river system and another (presumedly to allow for easier transportation of goods). This allowed two different Cichlid species to come together after having evolved separately for millions of years, resulting in their natural hybridization. Without man's interferance, this does not normally occur in nature. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@... wrote: > > Bill > I would argue that it is speciation and not hybridization. Because they start from a common ancestor does not mean it is hybridization. > > Mike > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: williemcd@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, Jun 27, 2011 9:40 am > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the > > beginning.. i.e. evolution..No specie evolved independently. Every fish is > > tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and > > adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is > > nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Hi Bill, > > Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might > > only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of > > hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if > > this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. > > As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been > > modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make > > such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. > > I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly > > through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them > > hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger > > Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and > > albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT > > hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation > > within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the > > normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same > > species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are > > developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not > > bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various > > varieties (breeds) look different from one another. > > Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which > > ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of > > Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, > > do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs > > of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two > > different locations of the same species? > > Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in > > this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most > > universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon > > aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. > > Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and > > the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown > > Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus > > aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black > > bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven > > fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. > > Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants > > (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, > > 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the > > subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, > > 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi > > (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack > > Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira > > recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. > > a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, > > Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo > > (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, > > Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. > > aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). > > Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, > > and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding > > (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the > > others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. > > aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of > > S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred > > strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. > > So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. > > Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with > > 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and > > always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we > > seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now > > most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not > > being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which > > may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, > > Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does > > not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties > > aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by > > selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy > > these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild > > form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other > > species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet > > familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color > > morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this > > topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. > > There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet > > which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. > > The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red > > Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between > > the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus > > maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus > > variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs > > their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us > > already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild > > form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild > > Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium > > strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive > > (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are > > occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. > > Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish > > keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs > > (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, > > in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby > > but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they > > are almost identical in outward appearance. > > With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake > > Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as > > species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by > > Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes > > for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be > > improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for > > example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara > > jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, > > not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred > > only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding > > generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with > > hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, > > with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There > > are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species > > with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily > > polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are > > being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may > > be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore > > essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming > > more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) > > and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think > > we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from > > now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to > > enjoy. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in > > >one > > > > > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > > > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > > > > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > > > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > > > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > > > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > > > > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > > > > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill > > >in > > > > > > Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > > > > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > > > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > > > ( > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of Ray > > > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > > > Scott, > > > > > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > > > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > > > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > > > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > > > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > > > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > > > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > > > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > > > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > > > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > > > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > > > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > > > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > > > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > > > > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > > > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > > > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > > > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > > > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > > > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > > > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > > > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > > > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > > > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > > > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > > > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > > > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > > > > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > > > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > > > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , > > > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > > > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > > > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > > > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > > > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > > > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > > > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > > > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > > > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_57f2e1d3-579b-422d-996c-52998a606e06 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51631	From: Ray	Date: 6/27/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

John, Evolution of a species involves all you stated and then some, over the millenia -- but SELDOM involves a mixture of species. Thanks for your input -- maybe between adding all of our concerted views on this subject, those who were unaware of why wanton hybridization should be avoided may now understand the reasoning behind it and be satisfied with the beauty and wonders we find in nature. Man can never improve upon what nature has taken millions of years to create. After all, does anyone really think man could be better than God at creating a living thing? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > > Hello Bill, Ray, and everyone else: > Though it is probably true that millions (not thousands) of mutations may > have resulted in new species over time it is over such a great period of time > that we can't even comprehend the numbers. It's easy to rattle off 50-200 > million years like it's the day before yesterday but think about how long a > period of time that really is. There are all kinds of factors involved in > creating different, and new, species like natural selection, genetic flow, > genetic drift, isolation, habitat change, the list is endless (as nearly is the > amount of time involved). It's not always a mixture of species that creates new > species. > I think the reason that purists are so adamant about deliberate hybridization > without keeping track of where the offspring are going is that with hybrids > running rampant from collection-to-collection the pure strain could be diluted > enough to where it would be hard to fix the damage (at least in captive > populations anyway). Though an argument could be made that most people wouldn't > notice, or even care, it might make it difficult to get good care info because > what they may have may not be a pure strain, and therefore, react differently to > treatments and environmental setups meant for a pure breed species. Besides, > why screw up what nature has produced for us. She can do it all by herself in > three to five million years. Then whatever follows man can enjoy an entire new > list of species to observe, study, and enjoy. > I always enjoy conversations like this. I belong to a couple of > paleontological groups that engage in evolutionary discussions as well. > I hope everyone has a Wonderful Day!!! > Spawn > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:40:52 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > Ray.. I stand corrected for the most part.. In my defense though.. Start at the > beginning.. i.e. evolution..No specie evolved independently. Every fish is > tied back to the origins of aquatic life.. with 1000's of mutations and > adaptions throughout history.. What is going on today in hybridization is > nothing that hasn't occurred in nature.. Bill > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, June 27, 2011 12:24:41 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > Hi Bill, > > Sorry to hear there's been a rift caused in a forum you once belonged to. Might > > only be that some of those members don't completely understand the subject of > hybrids. Perhaps, with clarification, I may be able to help heal their rift if > this is going on presently, unless this happened before you left that forum. > > As to your comment about 100% pure strains and "just about everything has been > modified . . . ," I don't know how you could come to such a conclusion and make > such a rash statement, when most of our aquarium species are still pure strains. > > I will agree that a number of fishes of most Families have been modified, mainly > > through selective breeding within the species but this does not make them > hybrids. We now have long-fin Zebra Danios, long-fin Rosy Barbs, red and tiger > Oscars, veil-tail Angelfish, O/B Peacocks, various color strains of Discus and > albino forms of many others, but they are ALL still the same species and are NOT > > hybrids. These variations are developments/enhancements of a genetic mutation > within the species, which the breeder recognized as being different from the > normal form of the species, and went on to line breed it with others of the same > > species. This is no different than how the various "purebred" dog breeds are > developed -- all from the same species -- Canis lupus familiaris. Dogs are not > bred with foxes or any other different species, even though the various > varieties (breeds) look different from one another. > > Getting to your comments on Discus, to start with, it all depends on which > ichthyologist(s) you want to go with when you state there are 3 "types" of > Discus -- AND, what you mean by "type." When stating "type" as concerns Discus, > > do you mean species or do you mean varieties (strains) -- as it different morphs > > of the same species, some of which may have been developed by interbreeding two > different locations of the same species? > > Presently, there are only TWO Discus species recognized by most taxonomists in > this field, although this is still some conjecture in this matter. Most > universally recognized are Symphysodon discus (Heckel, 1840) and Symphysodon > aequefasciatus (Pellegrin, 1903) -- with varieties of them as found in nature. > Varieties of S. discus are S. discus discus and S. discus willischwartzi -- and > the varieties of S. aequifasciatus are S. aequifasciatus axelrodi (Brown > Discus), S. aequifasciatus haraldi (Blue Discus) and S. aequifasciatus > aequifasciatus (Green/Tefe Discus). S. discus, having the wide vertical black > bar in the center, while S. aequifasciatus lacks this wide bar but has seven > fainter and narrower vertical bars on the body. > > Bernd Degan recognizes S. Discus and S. aequifasciatus, including the variants > (subspecies) S. a. axelrodi (Schultz, 1960) and S. a. aequifasciatus (Pellegrin, > > 1903). Jack Wattley recognizes S. discus and S. aequifasciatus -- including the > > subspecies S. a. axelrodi, S, a. aequifasciatus and S. a. haraldi (Schultz, > 1960). Eduard Schmidt-Focke recognizes S. discus, S. d. willischwartzi > (Burgess. 1981), S. aequifasciatus and the same three subspecies that Jack > Wattley recognizes. Sven O. Kullander, J. S. Ready and E.J.G. Ferreira > recognize S. discus and S. aequifasciatus although they see the subspecies S. > a. axelrodi and S. a. haraldi as synonyms for S. aequifasciatus. Additionally, > Sven Kullander has evelated a new subspecies of S. aequifasciatus -- Tarzoo > (Lyons, 1959) -- to species status, maintaining it's a species in itself, > Symphysodon tarzoo. Heiko Bleher recognizes both S. discus and S. > aequifasciatus, along with the subspecies S. a. haraldi (only). > > Yes, there are numerous named and recognized aquarium-bred strains of Discus, > and while there have been some strains that were the result of cross breeding > (hybridizing) Symphysodon discus with Symphysodon aequifasciatus, all of the > others were either derived from line breeding current strains of the species S. > aequifasciatus or from breeding two different strains (of the SAME species) of > S. aequifasciatus -- which are NOT hybrids, but just other aquarium bred > strains, newly developed from existing aquarium strains of the same species. > So, we can't include these "100's of named types" of Discus as being hybrids.. > > Where did you ever get the idea that you can't find wild caught Angelfish with > 3" fins. Three inch -- or longer -- fins on wild Angelfish are the norm, and > always has been if you're talking about Pterophyllum scalare. Unfortunately, we > > seldom see wild P. scalare being imported anymore, and the location that now > most often is collected -- even if limitedly -- is the Peruvian "Scalare" (not > being representative of the original P. scalare, and having shorter fins) which > may wind up being yet another species. Correct, we wouldn't find Koi Angels, > Marble Angels or a mix of these two strains Angelfish in the wild. This does > not say that these fish are hybrids either -- the same as most Discus varieties > aren't hybrids -- yes, these Angels (or Discus) are aquarium-developed (by > selective breeding) varieties of the SAME SPECIES. While many hobbyists enjoy > these various color strains of the SPECIES P. scalare, others prefer the wild > form, yet they are ALL one species. they have not been hybridized with any other > > species. By your statements on this topic, it's apparent that you're not yet > familiar with what a hybrid is. It IS NOT a cross between two different color > morphs of the SAME SPECIES. You may want to familiarize yourself with this > topic by reading some good books on it before coming to erroneous conclusions. > > There are some very early aquarium fishes in the hobby which are hybrids and yet > > which everyone enjoys, which are some of the mainstays even as beginner fish. > The various colors of Swordtails and Platies are all hybrids of each other. Red > > Swordtails are the eventual result of selectively breeding the crosses between > the wild Swordtail (Xiphophorus helleri) and the wild Platy (Xiphophorus > maculatus). The aquarium color forms of the variatus Platy (Xiphophorus > variatus) have also been developed though hybridization -- and no one "snubs > their noses" at keepers or breeders of these fish. For one thing, as most of us > > already know, they're known hybrids and can never be confused with the wild > form, so genetic mixing can never occur unless it's purposeful. The wild > Swordtail resembles the Green Swordtail aquarium strain, although this aquarium > strain may not necessarily contain pure Swordtail genes if it carries recessive > (hidden) Platy genes. For those hobbyists preferring wild Swordtails, they are > occasionally imported directly from the Mexican streams they are collected from. > > > Just touching back to "just about everything has been modified," Killiefish > keepers take greart precaution to never mix even the various color morphs > (collecting sites) of the SAME species, for fear of mixing the genetic make-up, > in case 10 years from now the two extremely similar fishes caught in two nearby > but different locations eventually turn out to be two species , even though they > > are almost identical in outward appearance. > > With exception of a very few Lake Malawi Cichlids -- and especially NO Lake > Tanganyika Cichlids -- All species of fishes coming from these Lakes are kept as > > species collected at certain named locations, as they are best enjoyed by > Cichlid hobbyists in their wild form. These fishes rival marine aquarium fishes > > for color, and it's realized that these fishes in their natural forms can't be > improved upon. As for all of the wild species of Lake Malawi Peacocks, for > example, they are all separate and different species from each other; Aulonocara > > jacobfreibergi is an entirely different species than Aulonocara stuartgranti, > not just a different color variety. As long as these species are kept and bred > only with their own species, we know what to expect with each succeeding > generation. With hybrids, it's not always predictable -- then too, with > hybrids, after a few generations they may be unable to reproduce. As it is now, > > with many (most?) red Parrot Cichlid hybrids, they are usually sterile. There > are programs designed for breeding and maintaining certain endangered species > with which their natural habitats have been destroyed or at least temporarily > polluted, and in which these fish are considered extinct. These species are > being msintained in the aquarium in anticipation that some day their habitat may > > be restored, allowing them to be reintroduced into the wild. It's therefore > essential that they remain pure species. As habitat destruction is becoming > more prevalent, it wouldn't be a bad thing to keep fishes as a species (ONLY) > and not mix their genetic make-up, just in case more become extinct. I think > we'd like to have the same species we enjoy today still available 20 years from > now even if they can't be found in the wild, for our sons and daughters to > enjoy. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I've just got to weigh in on this hybrid thing.. It's caused a major rift in > >one > > > > of the forums that I USED to belong to... Unless you are keeping 100% pure > > strains, just about everything has been modified either thru selective breeding > > > > > > or cross-breeding... There are recognized 3 types of Discus... what some > > consider the King of Fresh.... do an action site search and you'll see 100's > > "named" types...You'll not find w/c Angel fish with 3 inch long fins.. nor > > Koi/marble mix.. they have been developed by selective breeding There are folks > > > > > > that snub their noses at keepers of hybrids but until they share the lineage of > > > > > > the fish they keep, I'm betting most are keepers of hybrids themselves. Bill > >in > > > > Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:26:56 AM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > > > I agree with Ray and Deenerz. Malawi hobbyists might suggest you either > > keep hybrids in your home for their lifetime or sell them as feeder fish. : > > ( > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Sunday, June 26, 2011 4:14 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: baby peacocks > > > > Scott, > > > > While you state that you'll be allowing your juvenile Peacocks to grow up to > > 2" before selling them, to get a better idea of what they look like, their > > appearance does not matter at this point in time as they are hybrids and > > their coloration will not represent what their genetic make-up is -- > > regardless of what they look like. For that matter, why would you be > > concerned at all what they look like, knowing that they're a mixture of > > different Peacocks unless it's to misrepresent (whether intentionally or > > unintentionally) what they really are. You already know your young Peacocks > > are a mixture (hybrid) of different Aulonocara species, as you've already > > described their various parents to us, so you're obviously aware of this > > hybridization that has taken place. When (if) these are sold, they should be > > sold as such (HYBRIDS) and not sold as "what they will look like," if you > > intend to be honest about them. Any buyer (fish store, or other hobbyist) > > should be made aware of the fact these are hybrids. > > > > As Mike has already mentioned, with a very few exceptions most hobbyists > > disdain hybrids of any species they are keeping, especially when they breed > > their fish and sell to pet shops that prefer to offer these fish to their > > customers with the same assurance that these fish are a specific species and > > not hybrids. There are some who enjoy the looks of such established hybrids > > such as the German Red Peacock, but this hybrid is sold as such, so that the > > hobbyists knows what to expect. This same attention/preference for > > maintaining specific species goes with the Cichlid hobbyist as much as it > > does with the general hobbyist. I doubt very much if the community tank > > hobbyist would enjoy keeping a Neon (or Cardinal) Tetra -- Pristella Tetra > > hybrid (which would be possible if their breeding was manipulated by man) > > rather than enjoying the full natural beauty of the Neon Tetra or the > > Pristella or the Cardinal Tetra as a pure species. > > > > I know of no "Crystalline" Peacock, although there is a Ruby Crystal > > Peacock, if this is what you mean. If so, you should be aware that the Ruby > > Crystal is already a hybrid of different Peacocks. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "ScottW" <kissinmera@> wrote: > > > > > > I have three female peacocks. Two are "crystalline" and the other is a J. > > Freibergi. The males are crystalline with sunshine and o.b. peacocks. Now I > > have about 30 babies on my hands. Most look like crystallines, but as they > > grow up I will be able to see more colorings. I plan to let them grow to 2" > > or so before selling. That way I can have a better idea of what they will > > look like as adults. I love that they had babies! I only have a 55g and 29g > > to house them in now. They are already jammed in these two tanks. I would > > love to build a bigger tank, but I am not sure if that is feasible given my > > current budget. How big a tank would I need to house 15 to 20 adults? > > > > > > Thank you, > > > > > > Scott > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51632	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 6/28/2011
Subject: CO2 Booster

I never heard back any responses as to thoughts about API CO2 Booster Liquid Carbon for my planted tanks. Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51633	From: ScottW	Date: 6/28/2011
Subject: Re: baby peacocks

I have enjoyed the read as well. I will keep as many fish as I can and make sure anyone else who might want them knows they are hybrids. This was truely unintentional on my part. I just bought peacocks at a local pet store and ended up with babies. I am not a breeder and have never sold fish before. I just have so many babies that I cannot keep them all. I am waiting til they are bigger in order to decide which I want to keep and which I will regretfully have to sell/use as feeders. In my experience with the last babies I had, the coloring of the babies does change as they get older. The first group of babies I got were all albino looking, but when they got bigger their colors changed. Truefully I did not realize this was such a sensitive issue. I am glad I got to learn more from all of you. Your posts have been very helpful. Scott

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51634	From: sevenspringss	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: API CO2 Booster

Paula, API's CO2 Booster Liquid Carbon is very similar to SeaChem's Flourish Excel. Good stuff for plants as it provides a food (carbon) for the plants. While it isn't quite as good as CO2 injection, it's very close behind. Depending on which plants you have, this may be all you need to promote as much plant growth as you're looking for, especially if you have more of the old favorite standby plants (and not the newer red-toned varieties). Probably good for 24 hours after you add it -- same as the Flourish Excel. It's a lot less troublesome than having hoses and valves, etc., when just wanting to increase growth of "regular" aquattic plants. Be aware though, that it will melt Valisneria and Elodea, but then, if you've already used Excel you probably know this already. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, PAULA BROWN <paulabrown4480@...> wrote: > > Any thoughts on the API CO2 Booster Liquid Carbon for a planted tank? I > don't want to run a CO2 unit on my tanks and am just trying to help the > plants. I have used Flourish in the past. > > Paula > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51635	From: Bill	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: CO2 Booster

My perspective is a one word response. Steroids ________________________________ From: PAULA BROWN <paulabrown4480@...> To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, June 28, 2011 8:24:03 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] CO2 Booster I never heard back any responses as to thoughts about API CO2 Booster Liquid Carbon for my planted tanks. Paula [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51636	From: Trycya	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Been working on getting a pic, but the fish is being a brat... he seems to know when I am just about to snap a pic and dodges behind something just in time to not be in it... I will keep trying. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong sea or > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation so you > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure there are > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size tank you > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or protruding > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > will tell us a whole lot more. > > John<o)))< > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as ever, but > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it to > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but it > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find any > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51637	From: Trycya	Date: 6/29/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want to put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks like it has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird and he is the only one in my tank that has this. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong sea or > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation so you > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure there are > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size tank you > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or protruding > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > will tell us a whole lot more. > > John<o)))< > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as ever, but > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it to > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but it > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find any > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51638	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the fish or flat with it? John*<o)))<* On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > ** > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want to > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks like it > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird and he is > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong sea > or > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation so > you > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure there > are > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size tank > you > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > protruding > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > ever, but > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it > to > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but > it > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find > any > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51639	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Try taking a picture at feeding time, that usually helps. they are distracted with the food and may not notice you and the camera. Amber On 6/29/2011 6:44 PM, Trycya wrote: > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want > to put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > looks like it has the sections that a silk worm's body would have > really weird and he is the only one in my tank that has this. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong > sea or > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation > so you > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > there are > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > tank you > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > protruding > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > ever, but > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get > it to > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, > but it > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > find any > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51640	From: Trycya	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

I will try that... it seems to take great fun in teasing me though... he poses and everything then just as I snap he moves out of the shot... what a brat... LOL --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Try taking a picture at feeding time, that usually helps. they are > distracted with the food and may not notice you and the camera. > > Amber > > On 6/29/2011 6:44 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want > > to put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > > looks like it has the sections that a silk worm's body would have > > really weird and he is the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong > > sea or > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation > > so you > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > > there are > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > > tank you > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > protruding > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > > ever, but > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get > > it to > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, > > but it > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > > find any > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51641	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 6/30/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Fish are notoriously difficult to photograph & even when they do keep still you can often end up getting a nasty reflection off the tank from your flash or a window. The best way to go is to watch them for a few minutes-they usually have set routines that they follow. Find a place where he goes that is well lit & not reflecting anything like a window. Then get your camera focused there, stay still & just wait until he swims into frame. Only use the flash if it is low light & you are *not* at right angles to your tank glass! John*<o)))< * On 30 June 2011 16:03, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > ** > > > I will try that... it seems to take great fun in teasing me though... he > poses and everything then just as I snap he moves out of the shot... what a > brat... LOL > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Try taking a picture at feeding time, that usually helps. they are > > distracted with the food and may not notice you and the camera. > > > > Amber > > > > On 6/29/2011 6:44 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want > > > to put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > > > looks like it has the sections that a silk worm's body would have > > > really weird and he is the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > protruding > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong > > > sea or > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation > > > so you > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > > > there are > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > > > tank you > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > protruding > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > picture > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an > open > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > > > ever, but > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get > > > it to > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, > > > but it > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > > > find any > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51642	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Angels spawned!

Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51643	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get downloaded when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will show well enough. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the fish > or flat with it? > > John*<o)))<* > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want to > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks like it > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird and he is > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it protruding > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong sea > > or > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation so > > you > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure there > > are > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size tank > > you > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > protruding > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a picture > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an open > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > > ever, but > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get it > > to > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, but > > it > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't find > > any > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51644	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. John*<o)))< * On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > ** > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get downloaded > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will show well > enough. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the > fish > > or flat with it? > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want > to > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks > like it > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird and he > is > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > protruding > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong > sea > > > or > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation > so > > > you > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > there > > > are > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > tank > > > you > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > protruding > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > picture > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an > open > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > > > ever, but > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get > it > > > to > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, > but > > > it > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > find > > > any > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51645	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore on him --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get downloaded > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will show well > > enough. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the > > fish > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you want > > to > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks > > like it > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird and he > > is > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > protruding > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove it with > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very strong > > sea > > > > or > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an infestation > > so > > > > you > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > > there > > > > are > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > > tank > > > > you > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > protruding > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > picture > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is also an > > open > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as active as > > > > ever, but > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do to get > > it > > > > to > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not sure, > > but > > > > it > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > > find > > > > any > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51646	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Congratulations, thanks for posting-are the Bristlenose fry easy to raise? My female Common laid lots of eggs one morning last week but they were all eaten before I had a chance to get to them! John*<o)))< * On 1 July 2011 16:07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by > catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that > the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but > they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of > our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. > They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators > approve them. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51647	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm blind. LOL. Picture is approved. Amber On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > on him > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > downloaded > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > show well > > > enough. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > of the > > > fish > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > you want > > > to > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > looks > > > like it > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > weird and he > > > is > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > > protruding > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove > it with > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very > strong > > > sea > > > > > or > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > infestation > > > so > > > > > you > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make > sure > > > there > > > > > are > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what > size > > > tank > > > > > you > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > > protruding > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > > picture > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > also an > > > open > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > active as > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > do to get > > > it > > > > > to > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > not sure, > > > but > > > > > it > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > couldn't > > > find > > > > > any > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51648	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

BN pleco's are very easy to raise as long as you feed them and do regular water changes. If they are in a tank with nothing that will eat them as very tiny fry then they will have no problems at all. I have at least 25+ juveniles right now that I'm going to take out to my LFS to trade for fish food at some point. I just haven't gotten off my lazy bum and started netting them to bring out there, I don't look forward to it! LOL. Amber On 7/1/2011 3:04 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Congratulations, thanks for posting-are the Bristlenose fry easy to raise? > My female Common laid lots of eggs one morning last week but they were all > eaten before I had a chance to get to them! > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 1 July 2011 16:07, haecklers <haecklers@... > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first > time by > > catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn > that > > the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but > > they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some > photos of > > our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with > his fry. > > They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the > moderators > > approve them. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51649	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

I would suggest doing a google image search for fish lice, there are some good photos that Trycya can compare to her yoyo loach and see if it's the same problem. Amber On 7/1/2011 2:53 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get downloaded > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > show well > > enough. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the > > fish > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you > want > > to > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks > > like it > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird > and he > > is > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > protruding > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove > it with > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very > strong > > sea > > > > or > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > infestation > > so > > > > you > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > > there > > > > are > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > > tank > > > > you > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > protruding > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > picture > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > also an > > open > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > active as > > > > ever, but > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do > to get > > it > > > > to > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not > sure, > > but > > > > it > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > > find > > > > any > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51650	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned! - now bristlenose plecos spawning

Usually they lay them in a cave and the father guards the eggs and protects the fry for the first few weeks (or in the case of mine, indefinitely!). If there were eggs out in the open maybe they weren't fertilized anyway. They will probably spawn again, from what I hear especially if you give them green beans or zucchini and do a good water change. My bristlenose's first spawn was eaten as soon as they emerged from the cave by juvenile angelfish, the second was all killed by ich before I figured out what was going on this time around I think the juvenile pearl gouramis ate quite a few, judging by the fact they only were in the cave and the larger gouramis weren't interested at feeding time. So if you really want to keep your fry, try moving the parents into their own 20 gallon tank, make sure it's cycled properly, and then feed them fresh veggies and high-quality food, doing lots of water changes, imho! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Congratulations, thanks for posting-are the Bristlenose fry easy to raise? > My female Common laid lots of eggs one morning last week but they were all > eaten before I had a chance to get to them! > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 1 July 2011 16:07, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by > > catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that > > the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but > > they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of > > our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. > > They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators > > approve them. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51651	From: haecklers	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Be careful about bagging - ours punctured the bag with its spines and created a leak! - Renate --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > BN pleco's are very easy to raise as long as you feed them and do > regular water changes. If they are in a tank with nothing that will eat > them as very tiny fry then they will have no problems at all. I have at > least 25+ juveniles right now that I'm going to take out to my LFS to > trade for fish food at some point. I just haven't gotten off my lazy bum > and started netting them to bring out there, I don't look forward to it! > LOL. > > Amber > > On 7/1/2011 3:04 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Congratulations, thanks for posting-are the Bristlenose fry easy to raise? > > My female Common laid lots of eggs one morning last week but they were all > > eaten before I had a chance to get to them! > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 1 July 2011 16:07, haecklers <haecklers@... > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first > > time by > > > catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn > > that > > > the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but > > > they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some > > photos of > > > our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with > > his fry. > > > They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the > > moderators > > > approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51652	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough to get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive colored --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm > blind. LOL. > Picture is approved. > > Amber > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > > on him > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > > downloaded > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > show well > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > > of the > > > > fish > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > > you want > > > > to > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > > looks > > > > like it > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > > weird and he > > > > is > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > > > protruding > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove > > it with > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very > > strong > > > > sea > > > > > > or > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > infestation > > > > so > > > > > > you > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make > > sure > > > > there > > > > > > are > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what > > size > > > > tank > > > > > > you > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > > > picture > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > also an > > > > open > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > active as > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > > do to get > > > > it > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > > not sure, > > > > but > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > > couldn't > > > > find > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51653	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

No worries there, they are going in a 5 gallon bucket for the trip to the LFS. But I will keep that in mind if I rehome any to friends/family. Amber On 7/1/2011 5:14 PM, haecklers wrote: > > Be careful about bagging - ours punctured the bag with its spines and > created a leak! > > - Renate > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > BN pleco's are very easy to raise as long as you feed them and do > > regular water changes. If they are in a tank with nothing that will eat > > them as very tiny fry then they will have no problems at all. I have at > > least 25+ juveniles right now that I'm going to take out to my LFS to > > trade for fish food at some point. I just haven't gotten off my lazy > bum > > and started netting them to bring out there, I don't look forward to > it! > > LOL. > > > > Amber > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:04 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > > > Congratulations, thanks for posting-are the Bristlenose fry easy > to raise? > > > My female Common laid lots of eggs one morning last week but they > were all > > > eaten before I had a chance to get to them! > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 1 July 2011 16:07, haecklers <haecklers@... > > > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first > > > time by > > > > catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small > spawn > > > that > > > > the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile > eggs but > > > > they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some > > > photos of > > > > our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with > > > his fry. > > > > They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the > > > moderators > > > > approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51654	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

That I have done, but it doesn't look like what this fish has... I will just have to keep looking. Thanks --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I would suggest doing a google image search for fish lice, there are > some good photos that Trycya can compare to her yoyo loach and see if > it's the same problem. > > Amber > > On 7/1/2011 2:53 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@... > > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get downloaded > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > show well > > > enough. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface of the > > > fish > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however you > > want > > > to > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even looks > > > like it > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really weird > > and he > > > is > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > > protruding > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove > > it with > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very > > strong > > > sea > > > > > or > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > infestation > > > so > > > > > you > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make sure > > > there > > > > > are > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what size > > > tank > > > > > you > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > > protruding > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > > picture > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > also an > > > open > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > active as > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can do > > to get > > > it > > > > > to > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and not > > sure, > > > but > > > > > it > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but couldn't > > > find > > > > > any > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51655	From: Trycya	Date: 7/1/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few more pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next to him but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" <trycya@...> wrote: > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough to get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive colored > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm > > blind. LOL. > > Picture is approved. > > > > Amber > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > > > on him > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry pit > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > > > downloaded > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > > show well > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > > > of the > > > > > fish > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > > > you want > > > > > to > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It even > > > looks > > > > > like it > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > > > weird and he > > > > > is > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see it > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully remove > > > it with > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a very > > > strong > > > > > sea > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > > infestation > > > > > so > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to make > > > sure > > > > > there > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us what > > > size > > > > > tank > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something sharp or > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go but a > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > > also an > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > > active as > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > > > do to get > > > > > it > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > > > not sure, > > > > > but > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > > > couldn't > > > > > find > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51656	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Hi Trycya, Yes I see it now-doesn't look like anything parasitic that I have seen before, I wonder if it is a fatty growth? How long has it been there & has it changed colour or shape? John*<o)))< * On 2 July 2011 04:32, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > ** > > > He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few more > pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next to him > but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" <trycya@...> wrote: > > > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough to > get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive colored > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm > > > blind. LOL. > > > Picture is approved. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > > > > on him > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry > pit > > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > > > > downloaded > > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > > > > show well > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > > > > > of the > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > > > > you want > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It > even > > > > looks > > > > > > like it > > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > > > > weird and he > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see > it > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully > remove > > > > it with > > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a > very > > > > strong > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > > > infestation > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to > make > > > > sure > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us > what > > > > size > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something > sharp or > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go > but a > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > > > > also an > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > > > active as > > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > > > > do to get > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > > > > not sure, > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > > > > couldn't > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51657	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Something else that has just occurred to me-although the pictures are not very clear the object in question does look very like those snails around the fish. I know nothing about snails-can anyone say if there are any parasitic snails that would attach themselves to a fish? John<o)))< --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Trycya, > > Yes I see it now-doesn't look like anything parasitic that I have seen > before, I wonder if it is a fatty growth? How long has it been there & has > it changed colour or shape? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 2 July 2011 04:32, Trycya trycya@... wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few more > > pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next to him > > but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" trycya@ wrote: > > > > > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough to > > get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive colored > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm > > > > blind. LOL. > > > > Picture is approved. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > > > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > > > > > on him > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry > > pit > > > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > > > > > downloaded > > > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > > > > > > show well > > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > > > > > you want > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It > > even > > > > > looks > > > > > > > like it > > > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > > > > > weird and he > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see > > it > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully > > remove > > > > > it with > > > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a > > very > > > > > strong > > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > > > > infestation > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to > > make > > > > > sure > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us > > what > > > > > size > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something > > sharp or > > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go > > but a > > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > > > > > > also an > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > > > > active as > > > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > > > > > do to get > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > > > > > not sure, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51658	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

That was something I have been wondering but haven't come across anything yet --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mrbushy2003" <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Something else that has just occurred to me-although the pictures are > not very clear the object in question does look very like those snails > around the fish. I know nothing about snails-can anyone say if there are > any parasitic snails that would attach themselves to a fish? > > John<o)))< > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Trycya, > > > > Yes I see it now-doesn't look like anything parasitic that I have > seen > > before, I wonder if it is a fatty growth? How long has it been there & > has > > it changed colour or shape? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 2 July 2011 04:32, Trycya trycya@ wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few > more > > > pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next > to him > > > but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" trycya@ wrote: > > > > > > > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough > to > > > get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive > colored > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > > > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless > I'm > > > > > blind. LOL. > > > > > Picture is approved. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a > very > > > > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of > the sore > > > > > > on him > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small > cherry > > > pit > > > > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to > get > > > > > > downloaded > > > > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully > they will > > > > > > > > > show well > > > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the > surface > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth > however > > > > > > you want > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. > It > > > even > > > > > > looks > > > > > > > > like it > > > > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have > really > > > > > > weird and he > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able > to see > > > it > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & > carefully > > > remove > > > > > > it with > > > > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or > even a > > > very > > > > > > strong > > > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already > be an > > > > > > infestation > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market > to > > > make > > > > > > sure > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell > us > > > what > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the > tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on > something > > > sharp or > > > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way > to go > > > but a > > > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump > that is > > > > > > > > > also an > > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is > still as > > > > > > active as > > > > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what > I can > > > > > > do to get > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the > possibilities and > > > > > > not sure, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor > worm but > > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51659	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Not sure how long it has been there I noticed it last week, it hasn't changed in color or shape --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Trycya, > > Yes I see it now-doesn't look like anything parasitic that I have seen > before, I wonder if it is a fatty growth? How long has it been there & has > it changed colour or shape? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 2 July 2011 04:32, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few more > > pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next to him > > but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough to > > get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive colored > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless I'm > > > > blind. LOL. > > > > Picture is approved. > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a very > > > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of the sore > > > > > on him > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should help. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small cherry > > pit > > > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to get > > > > > downloaded > > > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully they will > > > > > > > show well > > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the surface > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth however > > > > > you want > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. It > > even > > > > > looks > > > > > > > like it > > > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have really > > > > > weird and he > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able to see > > it > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & carefully > > remove > > > > > it with > > > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or even a > > very > > > > > strong > > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already be an > > > > > infestation > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market to > > make > > > > > sure > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell us > > what > > > > > size > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on something > > sharp or > > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way to go > > but a > > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump that is > > > > > > > also an > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is still as > > > > > active as > > > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what I can > > > > > do to get > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the possibilities and > > > > > not sure, > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor worm but > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51660	From: Trycya	Date: 7/2/2011
Subject: Re: help... yo=yo loach has a sore

Those snails are unfortnantely taking over both my tanks... I am considering putting a bit of aquairum salt in both to try and knock them down a bit before I do a total tear down and replace most of the substrate which will hopefully get rid of the rest... but before I do that I am first looking @ the possiblity of getting a 75 gallon or a little bigger and just transferring everyone who I plan to keep to one tank and give one of the other tanks away with the rest of the fish (guppies) to someone. But before the tear down I want to try and get the yo-yo loach taken care of. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mrbushy2003" <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Something else that has just occurred to me-although the pictures are > not very clear the object in question does look very like those snails > around the fish. I know nothing about snails-can anyone say if there are > any parasitic snails that would attach themselves to a fish? > > John<o)))< > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > Hi Trycya, > > > > Yes I see it now-doesn't look like anything parasitic that I have > seen > > before, I wonder if it is a fatty growth? How long has it been there & > has > > it changed colour or shape? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 2 July 2011 04:32, Trycya trycya@ wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > He decided to cooperate for a few minutes so I was able to add a few > more > > > pics... when you look @ it ... it will look almost like a snail next > to him > > > but it isn't that is the sore about half way down the body/ > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Trycya" trycya@ wrote: > > > > > > > > LOL... I will try to get a better one but that one was hard enough > to > > > get... LOL... he is there almost under the bubble wand he is olive > colored > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I can't find the yoyo loach, LOL. > > > > > I think we're gonna need a closer picture if possible... Unless > I'm > > > > > blind. LOL. > > > > > Picture is approved. > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 7/1/2011 3:16 PM, Trycya wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have upload the pic, just waiting for approval... it isn't a > very > > > > > > good one but he is under the bubbler... you can see part of > the sore > > > > > > on him > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > > > > <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds like it could be a fish louse-your picture should > help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 1 July 2011 22:31, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is raised off the fish and about the size of a small > cherry > > > pit > > > > > > > > I have managed to get a couple of pics that I will try to > get > > > > > > downloaded > > > > > > > > when I get home this evening and send them... hopefully > they will > > > > > > > > > show well > > > > > > > > enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is the diameter of the spot & is it raised off the > surface > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > fish > > > > > > > > > or flat with it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 30 June 2011 03:44, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am still working on the pic... but the sore/growth > however > > > > > > you want > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > put to me reminds me of a silk worm that is curled up. > It > > > even > > > > > > looks > > > > > > > > like it > > > > > > > > > > has the sections that a silk worm's body would have > really > > > > > > weird and he > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > the only one in my tank that has this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this was anchor worm you would probably be able > to see > > > it > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > > from the spot with it's distinctive Y shaped tail: > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.koidoctor.co.uk/health/anchor_worm.html > > > > > > > > > > > If it is anchor worm you can net the fish & > carefully > > > remove > > > > > > it with > > > > > > > > > > > tweezers & swab the affected area with iodine or > even a > > > very > > > > > > strong > > > > > > > > sea > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > rock salt solution. Problem is there could already > be an > > > > > > infestation > > > > > > > > so > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > will need to use one of the treatments on the market > to > > > make > > > > > > sure > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > no more problems. Can you post a picture & also tell > us > > > what > > > > > > size > > > > > > > > tank > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > have, what filtration & how many other fish in the > tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It may be that he has just caught himself on > something > > > sharp or > > > > > > > > > > protruding > > > > > > > > > > > in which case the iodine or salt is still a good way > to go > > > but a > > > > > > > > picture > > > > > > > > > > > will tell us a whole lot more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 26 June 2011 04:43, Trycya <trycya@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My yo-yo loach has a sore looks kinda like a lump > that is > > > > > > > > > also an > > > > > > > > open > > > > > > > > > > > > sore, kinda shaped like a snail almost... He is > still as > > > > > > active as > > > > > > > > > > ever, but > > > > > > > > > > > > this sore concerns me any ideas what it is or what > I can > > > > > > do to get > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > heal? I was reading about some of the > possibilities and > > > > > > not sure, > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > almost looks like the discription of an anchor > worm but > > > > > > couldn't > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > > pics of it to see > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51661	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/4/2011
Subject: Tournament targets exotic, invasive fish

http://www.xploreutah.net/story/tournament-targets-exotic-invasive-fish MIAMI — Steve Papp cleaned up monetarily and ecologically in last week’s one-day nonnative fish roundup tournament in the Everglades. Papp, a landscaper from Plantation, Fla., won $325 for bringing more than 77 pounds of snakeheads, blue and spotted tilapia, Mayan and yellow-bellied cichlids, sailfin catfish and jaguar guapote to the scales on Tamiami Trail east of Krome Ave. Runner-up Jack Gleason weighed 18 snakeheads totaling 29 pounds, 14 ounces — including the tournament’s largest fish at 8 pounds, 6 ounces. William Bayes finished in third place overall with 21 pounds, 13 ounces of exotic fish. “I think it was a really good success,” said tournament organizer Tony Pernas of the Everglades Cooperative Invasive Species Management Area. “... It really helped raise awareness of nonnative fish and the threat they pose to the Everglades ecosystem.” All 28 anglers weighed at least one fish in the second annual contest, which was put on by a consortium of federal, state and local government agencies, and tribal and conservation groups. Sponsors Eagle Claw hooks and JD’s Custom Baits provided identification kits and fishing tackle for the anglers. The top contestant fished from shore instead of a boat. Papp said he covered about 75 miles in his truck, plumbing Broward canals from SR 84 north to Sample Road and from U.S. 441 west to University Drive. He said casting plastic frogs was an effective technique for catching snakeheads. He cast-netted or snagged some of his other fish. Papp, who said he is allergic to fish, planned to clean his catch and give it to his in-laws. As for his prizes, “I get to keep the plaques. The money goes to the wife,” he chuckled. Gleason, an avid bass tournament fisherman, said he caught all his snakeheads in the L-36 canal near Markham Park in west Broward County. “Topwater is the best bait,” Gleason said. “They’ll come charging from 30 feet away to bite that.” Snakeheads are good table fare, he added. “It’s a white, mild flesh. You’ve got to put a little seasoning on them,” he said. Bayes fished from shore in Miami Springs canals with his friend, Patricia Palermo. Both caught jaguar guapotes, Mayan cichlids and spotted and hornet tilapia. “Every weekend, I go fishing in the canals, and I knew where the fish would be,” Bayes said. “We were sight-fishing with cut-up night crawlers.” The tournament featured more than 20 eligible species of nonnative fish found in the Everglades region of Miami-Dade, Broward, Palm Beach, Collier and Monroe counties. Peacock bass and grass carp were exempted because they were introduced into the South Florida canal system years ago on purpose by the state. Tournament anglers were discerning between native and nonnative species. The only native accidentally harvested for the weigh-in was a small bowfin, or mudfish. (c) 2011, The Miami Herald. Visit The Miami Herald Web edition on the World Wide Web at http://www.miamiherald.com/. Distributed by McClatchy-Tribune Information Services.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51662	From: haecklers	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51663	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: New betta

I "inherited" a lovely red male betta from someone who was moving. Over the weekend I put in red iridescent marbles to compliment his color. After a moment I swear he made a chirping noise and he wasn't at the top of the tank expelling air! I searched the net for betta making noise and all I could find was other people asking the same question but no answer. Do bettas chirp?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51664	From: Ray	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

R, Probably a good thing that you left the Guppies in with the pair. They'll act as dither fish and will have the Angel pair focusing more of their attention on them, peaking their protective instinct for their fry. Pairs that accept each other more readily without incident, and which get along better with each other rather than act fiesty with each other, are less likely to suspect each other of having a few snacks of the eggs when they're cleaning them -- which is one of the causes of the eggs winding up being eaten, when the accusing parent goes into a frenzy and eats the eggs even when the accused one is innocent. So, from what you're saying, the eggs hatched on Monday. Depending on what time Monday, they should be free-swimming and looking for food either very late Thursday or more probably on Friday morning (Friday afternoon if they hatched real late Monday). Don't start feeding them until all of the fry are free-swimming, to avoid the possibility of late swimmers becoming belly sliders. Lots of luck with them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51665	From: Hermansyah	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta

wow, what chirp? what i know betta don't like 'things' in their tank anyway nice idea,i'll try it to my red betta :)) Regards, Herman On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 6:57 PM, diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...>wrote: > ** > > > I "inherited" a lovely red male betta from someone who was moving. Over the > weekend I put in red iridescent marbles to compliment his color. After a > moment I swear he made a chirping noise and he wasn't at the top of the tank > expelling air! I searched the net for betta making noise and all I could > find was other people asking the same question but no answer. Do bettas > chirp? > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51666	From: caroline cormier	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta

I know they like still water.. you used declor and stuff.. maybe he was holding his breath.. just kidding.. good luck with the little guy. caroline ________________________________ From: diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 4:57:09 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] New betta I "inherited" a lovely red male betta from someone who was moving. Over the weekend I put in red iridescent marbles to compliment his color. After a moment I swear he made a chirping noise and he wasn't at the top of the tank expelling air! I searched the net for betta making noise and all I could find was other people asking the same question but no answer. Do bettas chirp? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51667	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51668	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/6/2011
Subject: Re: New betta

Hi Diana, That's an interesting observation & I have heard of this before but not specifically with Bettas so it would be good if someone has some more info. Certainly I've heard large Goldfish or Koi snort, sometimes very loudly when they are too big to bag-up in water so we have to momentarily taken them out in a Koi sock to move them but not, as yet, any chirping! John*<o)))< * On 6 July 2011 14:58, caroline cormier <waves022@...> wrote: > ** > > > I know they like still water.. you used declor and stuff.. maybe he was > holding his breath.. just kidding.. good luck with the little guy. caroline > > ________________________________ > From: diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, July 6, 2011 4:57:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] New betta > > > I "inherited" a lovely red male betta from someone who was moving. Over the > > weekend I put in red iridescent marbles to compliment his color. After a > moment > I swear he made a chirping noise and he wasn't at the top of the tank > expelling > air! I searched the net for betta making noise and all I could find was > other > people asking the same question but no answer. Do bettas chirp? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51669	From: Ray	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Dawn, Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things involved with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability of the pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that aren't eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of their environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking may also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of more aggressive Angelfish. I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, which eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I would not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing an influence on them. Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair was eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and even ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive pair. Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a major effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. Just another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much activity in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the water not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the list of causes goes on. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51670	From: haecklers	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

The parents are having a disagreement - Mom wants them on the plant and Dad wants them on the rock. Fry are being scooped up by the mouthful to be moved to one place only to be picked up by the other parent to be put back again. LOL!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51671	From: Chloe	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: found baby!

I have found a very small baby in my 55 gallon community tank. he didn't come out for long and went right back into the volcano where he came from. he almost got sucked up by my filter but made it away to only be almost eaten by one of my neon tetras. luckily he made it safely back into the volcano. the only problem I have right now is that I have no idea what to do with him nor do I know what he is. there may be more I'm not quite sure, I did my weekly water change yesterday and didn't find any. I have 12 neon tetras, 2 glow light tetras, 2 glofish, 5 zebra danios, 2 painted glass fish, 3 minnows from my pond, 5 guppies, 2 red wag platies, 1 sunburst platy, 1 mickey mouse platy, 3 dalmation molly babies, 3 mickey mouse platy babies and a guppy baby. I know what all the live bearer babies look like when theyre born but I dont know what any of the other babies look like when born. the little guy I found was very little, half the size of a molly baby and a grayish color. like I said he was only out for a short time so I couldn't look and see much about him. if anyone has any advice for me that would be great or to aide me in figuring out what this baby is. thanks -chloe*

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51672	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!

Have you seen any of your tetras laying eggs on plants/gravel? From what I've read on tetras they tend to be egg scatterers just like Danios are. So they would have scattered their eggs across the gravel/plants in your tank, and the other fish would have been quick to start eating them too. Amber On 7/7/2011 4:20 PM, Chloe wrote: > > I have found a very small baby in my 55 gallon community tank. he > didn't come out for long and went right back into the volcano where he > came from. he almost got sucked up by my filter but made it away to > only be almost eaten by one of my neon tetras. luckily he made it > safely back into the volcano. the only problem I have right now is > that I have no idea what to do with him nor do I know what he is. > there may be more I'm not quite sure, I did my weekly water change > yesterday and didn't find any. I have 12 neon tetras, 2 glow light > tetras, 2 glofish, 5 zebra danios, 2 painted glass fish, 3 minnows > from my pond, 5 guppies, 2 red wag platies, 1 sunburst platy, 1 mickey > mouse platy, 3 dalmation molly babies, 3 mickey mouse platy babies and > a guppy baby. I know what all the live bearer babies look like when > theyre born but I dont know what any of the other babies look like > when born. the little guy I found was very little, half the size of a > molly baby and a grayish color. like I said he was only out for a > short time so I couldn't look and see much about him. if anyone has > any advice for me that would be great or to aide me in figuring out > what this baby is. > > thanks > -chloe* > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51673	From: Chloe	Date: 7/7/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!

I haven't noticed them laying any eggs but I haven't exactly been looking either Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: >Have you seen any of your tetras laying eggs on plants/gravel? From what >I've read on tetras they tend to be egg scatterers just like Danios are. >So they would have scattered their eggs across the gravel/plants in your >tank, and the other fish would have been quick to start eating them too. > >Amber > >On 7/7/2011 4:20 PM, Chloe wrote: >> >> I have found a very small baby in my 55 gallon community tank. he >> didn't come out for long and went right back into the volcano where he >> came from. he almost got sucked up by my filter but made it away to >> only be almost eaten by one of my neon tetras. luckily he made it >> safely back into the volcano. the only problem I have right now is >> that I have no idea what to do with him nor do I know what he is. >> there may be more I'm not quite sure, I did my weekly water change >> yesterday and didn't find any. I have 12 neon tetras, 2 glow light >> tetras, 2 glofish, 5 zebra danios, 2 painted glass fish, 3 minnows >> from my pond, 5 guppies, 2 red wag platies, 1 sunburst platy, 1 mickey >> mouse platy, 3 dalmation molly babies, 3 mickey mouse platy babies and >> a guppy baby. I know what all the live bearer babies look like when >> theyre born but I dont know what any of the other babies look like >> when born. the little guy I found was very little, half the size of a >> molly baby and a grayish color. like I said he was only out for a >> short time so I couldn't look and see much about him. if anyone has >> any advice for me that would be great or to aide me in figuring out >> what this baby is. >> >> thanks >> -chloe* >> >>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51674	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Chirping betta update

He did it again, this time at the surface. I think it is more like clicking, but the bowl must be crystal or something - the glass was ringing giving it the high pitched note that sounded like a chirp. I guess the "vase" he came in was nicer than I thought. He used to be the mascot for a laboratory on campus, and I actually thought it was a piece of labware. I'm keeping him in it, because the top curves inward, hopefully preventing the suicidal tendencies that took my last desk betta's life. And yes, it is big enough! I rarely post but I do read :)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51675	From: haecklers	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update

Mine do ring their glass sometimes. Seems like it would hurt them to hit it so hard with their faces! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > > He did it again, this time at the surface. I think it is more like clicking, but the bowl must be crystal or something - the glass was ringing giving it the high pitched note that sounded like a chirp. > > I guess the "vase" he came in was nicer than I thought. He used to be the mascot for a laboratory on campus, and I actually thought it was a piece of labware. > > I'm keeping him in it, because the top curves inward, hopefully preventing the suicidal tendencies that took my last desk betta's life. And yes, it is big enough! I rarely post but I do read :) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51676	From: erika77andnewton91	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update

my betta used to do this too, but i usually only noticed it when he ate. kinda like someone grinding their teeth. of course pretty much every time i saw him i was feeding him erika newark de usa --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "diana_brooksnj" <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > > He did it again, this time at the surface. I think it is more like clicking, but the bowl must be crystal or something - the glass was ringing giving it the high pitched note that sounded like a chirp. > > I guess the "vase" he came in was nicer than I thought. He used to be the mascot for a laboratory on campus, and I actually thought it was a piece of labware. > > I'm keeping him in it, because the top curves inward, hopefully preventing the suicidal tendencies that took my last desk betta's life. And yes, it is big enough! I rarely post but I do read :) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51677	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Chirping betta update

Hi Diane, My Goldfish often click at the surface, usually when they are playing around chasing one another but sometimes they will do it when feeding. If you are worried that he might try to jump then is it possible to cover the opening of your bowl with some type of netting or pantyhose then secure it with an elastic band? John*<o)))< * On 7 July 2011 18:34, diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > ** > > > He did it again, this time at the surface. I think it is more like > clicking, but the bowl must be crystal or something - the glass was ringing > giving it the high pitched note that sounded like a chirp. > > I guess the "vase" he came in was nicer than I thought. He used to be the > mascot for a laboratory on campus, and I actually thought it was a piece of > labware. > > I'm keeping him in it, because the top curves inward, hopefully preventing > the suicidal tendencies that took my last desk betta's life. And yes, it is > big enough! I rarely post but I do read :) > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51678	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Ray, sorry for the confusion about my angel pairs. I only have 2 pairs now, one of the females ended up egg bound about 6 months ago and I lost her. The pair that has spawned successfully is the pair in the 90 gallon, the only angels in that tank (except for their fry). I ended up having to give each pair their own tank to avoid them from ripping each other up every time someone wanted to spawn. So no, I've never had fry in a tank that held more than one pair of angels at a time. Eggs, yes... fry, never. In the 90 gallon where I got the successful spawn, along with the angel pair was a pair of gold barbs (who ate fry), 5 cherry barbs (who ate fry), a full grown red tail shark (6 - 7 inches), a rubber pleco, and a multitude of snails (rams horn, trumpets, and now a mystery snail). Once the fry hatched I had to remove the barbs because they were just more than the parent angelfish could handle, ambush predators at their best. Once the barbs were removed the problems went away quickly. The red tail shark and pleco have been in the tank throughout without any problems, and the shark actually has been swimming with the fry (with parents permission) since they were about 1/2 inch long. Its an interesting situation to watch. The parents seem to know when he's a threat and when he's not, most often he's allowed to swim freely without parents chasing him off. One of my 65 gallon tanks now holds the other pair of angels (still trying to get a successful spawn from them) and 3 gold white clouds, along with trumpet snails. They spawn regularly but continue to eat the eggs every time. Once the current fry are gone in a couple of wks I am hoping the timing of the 2 pairs spawning allows me to start working on the surrogacy study, trying to get the successful pair to raise eggs/fry from both pairs at the same time. The successful pair is staying in the 90 gallon as it is now since I know they have already done well there. Sorry its so confusing, I have too many tanks that are the same size running right now. Just wanted to clarify about where I've had success and where I haven't and who was in the tank at the time. Also I wanted to note about the lighting... the 90 gallon has 2 fixtures, a standard T5 and a HO T5. The standard T5 is on 24/7, the HOT5 has a regular day/night cycle. This helped with the adults not eating the fry when they hatched, however, I have seen some issues this presented in the fry as they got bigger/older with being afraid of the dark. Once they were all at least dime size I attempted to turn the T5 fixture off at night, only to see that my fry freaked out every time it got too dark. It has taken about a month now to acclimate them to darker conditions at night. The fry that have moved to other tanks do fine, its only the ones with the parent fish that have issues because as soon as the lights all go out the parents panic and herd the fry to one corner of the tank for protection which makes the fry panic and swim into each other and the sides of the tank. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things involved with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability of the pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that aren't eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of their environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking may also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of more aggressive Angelfish. > > I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, which eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I would not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing an influence on them. > > Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair was eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and even ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive pair. > > Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a major effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. Just another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much activity in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the water not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the list of causes goes on. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51679	From: haecklers	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

That is really interesting Dawn! Please keep us updated on your surrogacy study! My guppies ate all but about 4 of the fry yesterday. The parents had a bad day, they thought the fry should stay stuck to wherever they put them but the fry kept swimming around. So both parents were working full-time trying to basically keep the fry from swimming! With them so busy and their mouths full, the guppies had plenty of opportunity to dart in and grab a quick bite. I really didn't think they'd eat them up so fast. I removed the female guppies, but couldn't catch the male. It seemed the angelfish understood - as I tried to catch the guppies when they swam to the other side of the tank to avoid my net the angels chased them back, right to the net. They allow the male guppy to be near the fry, he's an Endler's so he's really small. I decided maybe he's not a threat to them and let him stay. Interesting how they can eat, chase other fish, etc. with a mouthful of fry! Several times now I've seen them eat food then later spit out some fry. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Ray, sorry for the confusion about my angel pairs. I only have 2 pairs now, one of the females ended up egg bound about 6 months ago and I lost her. > The pair that has spawned successfully is the pair in the 90 gallon, the only angels in that tank (except for their fry). I ended up having to give each pair their own tank to avoid them from ripping each other up every time someone wanted to spawn. So no, I've never had fry in a tank that held more than one pair of angels at a time. Eggs, yes... fry, never. > In the 90 gallon where I got the successful spawn, along with the angel pair was a pair of gold barbs (who ate fry), 5 cherry barbs (who ate fry), a full grown red tail shark (6 - 7 inches), a rubber pleco, and a multitude of snails (rams horn, trumpets, and now a mystery snail). Once the fry hatched I had to remove the barbs because they were just more than the parent angelfish could handle, ambush predators at their best. Once the barbs were removed the problems went away quickly. The red tail shark and pleco have been in the tank throughout without any problems, and the shark actually has been swimming with the fry (with parents permission) since they were about 1/2 inch long. Its an interesting situation to watch. The parents seem to know when he's a threat and when he's not, most often he's allowed to swim freely without parents chasing him off. > > One of my 65 gallon tanks now holds the other pair of angels (still trying to get a successful spawn from them) and 3 gold white clouds, along with trumpet snails. They spawn regularly but continue to eat the eggs every time. Once the current fry are gone in a couple of wks I am hoping the timing of the 2 pairs spawning allows me to start working on the surrogacy study, trying to get the successful pair to raise eggs/fry from both pairs at the same time. The successful pair is staying in the 90 gallon as it is now since I know they have already done well there. > > Sorry its so confusing, I have too many tanks that are the same size running right now. Just wanted to clarify about where I've had success and where I haven't and who was in the tank at the time. > > Also I wanted to note about the lighting... the 90 gallon has 2 fixtures, a standard T5 and a HO T5. The standard T5 is on 24/7, the HOT5 has a regular day/night cycle. This helped with the adults not eating the fry when they hatched, however, I have seen some issues this presented in the fry as they got bigger/older with being afraid of the dark. Once they were all at least dime size I attempted to turn the T5 fixture off at night, only to see that my fry freaked out every time it got too dark. It has taken about a month now to acclimate them to darker conditions at night. The fry that have moved to other tanks do fine, its only the ones with the parent fish that have issues because as soon as the lights all go out the parents panic and herd the fry to one corner of the tank for protection which makes the fry panic and swim into each other and the sides of the tank. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things involved with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability of the pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that aren't eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of their environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking may also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of more aggressive Angelfish. > > > > I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, which eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I would not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing an influence on them. > > > > Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair was eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and even ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive pair. > > > > Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a major effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. Just another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much activity in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the water not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the list of causes goes on. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the moderators approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51680	From: lrcvb11	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51681	From: haecklers	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51682	From: A B	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Ok, I just now put a little hidey house in the tank for him, and he was all excited about that, and ate one flake, so maybe there's hope.  Sigh. ________________________________ From: lrcvb11 <lrcvb11@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 7:04 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?   I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51683	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Probably just needs to settle into the tank more, wait two more days and try again. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of lrcvb11 Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2011 7:05 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51684	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/9/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

>I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he >won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get >in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy >kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him >in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays >in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy >gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack >of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, >what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? Guppies would be nice, I know they like baby guppies. haecklers' response makes a lot of sense. -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51685	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

I'm finding all of this fascinating reading & looking forward to the next installment! John*<o)))< * On 9 July 2011 11:51, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > That is really interesting Dawn! Please keep us updated on your surrogacy > study! > > My guppies ate all but about 4 of the fry yesterday. The parents had a bad > day, they thought the fry should stay stuck to wherever they put them but > the fry kept swimming around. So both parents were working full-time trying > to basically keep the fry from swimming! With them so busy and their mouths > full, the guppies had plenty of opportunity to dart in and grab a quick > bite. I really didn't think they'd eat them up so fast. > > I removed the female guppies, but couldn't catch the male. It seemed the > angelfish understood - as I tried to catch the guppies when they swam to the > other side of the tank to avoid my net the angels chased them back, right to > the net. They allow the male guppy to be near the fry, he's an Endler's so > he's really small. I decided maybe he's not a threat to them and let him > stay. > > Interesting how they can eat, chase other fish, etc. with a mouthful of > fry! Several times now I've seen them eat food then later spit out some fry. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Ray, sorry for the confusion about my angel pairs. I only have 2 pairs > now, one of the females ended up egg bound about 6 months ago and I lost > her. > > The pair that has spawned successfully is the pair in the 90 gallon, the > only angels in that tank (except for their fry). I ended up having to give > each pair their own tank to avoid them from ripping each other up every time > someone wanted to spawn. So no, I've never had fry in a tank that held more > than one pair of angels at a time. Eggs, yes... fry, never. > > In the 90 gallon where I got the successful spawn, along with the angel > pair was a pair of gold barbs (who ate fry), 5 cherry barbs (who ate fry), a > full grown red tail shark (6 - 7 inches), a rubber pleco, and a multitude of > snails (rams horn, trumpets, and now a mystery snail). Once the fry hatched > I had to remove the barbs because they were just more than the parent > angelfish could handle, ambush predators at their best. Once the barbs were > removed the problems went away quickly. The red tail shark and pleco have > been in the tank throughout without any problems, and the shark actually has > been swimming with the fry (with parents permission) since they were about > 1/2 inch long. Its an interesting situation to watch. The parents seem to > know when he's a threat and when he's not, most often he's allowed to swim > freely without parents chasing him off. > > > > One of my 65 gallon tanks now holds the other pair of angels (still > trying to get a successful spawn from them) and 3 gold white clouds, along > with trumpet snails. They spawn regularly but continue to eat the eggs every > time. Once the current fry are gone in a couple of wks I am hoping the > timing of the 2 pairs spawning allows me to start working on the surrogacy > study, trying to get the successful pair to raise eggs/fry from both pairs > at the same time. The successful pair is staying in the 90 gallon as it is > now since I know they have already done well there. > > > > Sorry its so confusing, I have too many tanks that are the same size > running right now. Just wanted to clarify about where I've had success and > where I haven't and who was in the tank at the time. > > > > Also I wanted to note about the lighting... the 90 gallon has 2 fixtures, > a standard T5 and a HO T5. The standard T5 is on 24/7, the HOT5 has a > regular day/night cycle. This helped with the adults not eating the fry when > they hatched, however, I have seen some issues this presented in the fry as > they got bigger/older with being afraid of the dark. Once they were all at > least dime size I attempted to turn the T5 fixture off at night, only to see > that my fry freaked out every time it got too dark. It has taken about a > month now to acclimate them to darker conditions at night. The fry that have > moved to other tanks do fine, its only the ones with the parent fish that > have issues because as soon as the lights all go out the parents panic and > herd the fry to one corner of the tank for protection which makes the fry > panic and swim into each other and the sides of the tank. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things involved > with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability of the > pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that aren't > eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding > success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of their > environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking may > also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of more > aggressive Angelfish. > > > > > > I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs > earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less > aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, which > eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I would > not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these > circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing an > influence on them. > > > > > > Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair was > eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and even > ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive pair. > > > > > > > Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a major > effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. Just > another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much activity > in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the water > not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the list of > causes goes on. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive > courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the > opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more > aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or > wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or > fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all > the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their > little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be > a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. > They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at > risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their > "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > > > > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which > angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during > courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the > two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both > ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first > time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn > that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs > but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some > photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with > his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the > moderators approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51686	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Stress. It takes time for a new fish to settle in. The others have offered some great advice so far, however, a jewel cichlid will likely eat adult guppies even when pretty small itself, the smaller the tank the faster that will happen. Jewels are awesome fish if they have the appropriate environment. If you can tell us how big it is that would give us a better indication of what it has now vs what it needs or will soon need. (if its healthy it will grow fast) The average jewel cichlid will get to about 6 inches as an adult, and as was already mentioned, they can be very aggressive and territorial, especially if spawning. They actually can mix quite well with some of the larger African cichlid species if the tank is large enough. The more caves and hide outs you can offer the more comfortable and peaceful it is likely to be. I wouldn't worry much about lack of appetite for at least a few days. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51687	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live feeders.  Supposedly helps their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a tank change with all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?   How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51688	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Awesome info, thanks Dawn.  He's between 2-2.5 inches.  I'm not the best at eyeballing size, but he's roughly the length of the average man's index finger.  So he's maybe 3 months I'm guessing?  I read that these fish don't grow as fast in a pet store, so hard to gauge, but that would be my uneducated guess.  Can you imagine even getting a fish at the store, and neither the pet store people nor the buyer know the breed, and then to just plop it into a community tank?  That part was just too incredibly weird.  And then surprise, your other fish start disappearing, lol....it's not really funny, just kind of strange.  The poor guy who gave him to me was really stressed out and seemed glad to let my boy go.  I'm guessing my fish was hungry and just helped himself.  Doubt he even touched the flakes.  He's awesome and I'm already attached to him. Laura :-) ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:01 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?   Stress. It takes time for a new fish to settle in. The others have offered some great advice so far, however, a jewel cichlid will likely eat adult guppies even when pretty small itself, the smaller the tank the faster that will happen. Jewels are awesome fish if they have the appropriate environment. If you can tell us how big it is that would give us a better indication of what it has now vs what it needs or will soon need. (if its healthy it will grow fast) The average jewel cichlid will get to about 6 inches as an adult, and as was already mentioned, they can be very aggressive and territorial, especially if spawning. They actually can mix quite well with some of the larger African cichlid species if the tank is large enough. The more caves and hide outs you can offer the more comfortable and peaceful it is likely to be. I wouldn't worry much about lack of appetite for at least a few days. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51689	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Unfortunately it's quite common for local fish stores (LFS) to sell fish that they don't know anything about. I once ended up with a MONSTER catfish, sure he was cute at only 2 inches, but at the rate he was growing he would have ended up 6 feet in a year. I rehomed him to someone pretty quickly. I just wonder how many of these monster catfish were flushed or dumped in our local water-ways. Amber On 7/10/2011 6:30 AM, A B wrote: > > Awesome info, thanks Dawn. He's between 2-2.5 inches. I'm not the > best at eyeballing size, but he's roughly the length of the average > man's index finger. So he's maybe 3 months I'm guessing? I read that > these fish don't grow as fast in a pet store, so hard to gauge, but > that would be my uneducated guess. Can you imagine even getting a > fish at the store, and neither the pet store people nor the buyer know > the breed, and then to just plop it into a community tank? That part > was just too incredibly weird. And then surprise, your other fish > start disappearing, lol....it's not really funny, just kind of > strange. The poor guy who gave him to me was really stressed out and > seemed glad to let my boy go. I'm guessing my fish was hungry and > just helped himself. Doubt he even touched the flakes. He's awesome > and I'm already attached to him. > > Laura :-) > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:01 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > Stress. It takes time for a new fish to settle in. The others have > offered some great advice so far, however, a jewel cichlid will likely > eat adult guppies even when pretty small itself, the smaller the tank > the faster that will happen. > Jewels are awesome fish if they have the appropriate environment. If > you can tell us how big it is that would give us a better indication > of what it has now vs what it needs or will soon need. (if its healthy > it will grow fast) > > The average jewel cichlid will get to about 6 inches as an adult, and > as was already mentioned, they can be very aggressive and territorial, > especially if spawning. They actually can mix quite well with some of > the larger African cichlid species if the tank is large enough. > > The more caves and hide outs you can offer the more comfortable and > peaceful it is likely to be. > > I wouldn't worry much about lack of appetite for at least a few days. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. > but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like > when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me > because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I > took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he > LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real > plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a > larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be > either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of > fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51690	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

I believe it.  Anything to make money sometimes, unfortunately.  When I was a kid, my older brother got a pet aligator at a pet store (here's my chance to criticize my mom's parenting skills, lol).  And of course, we all know they never grow past the cute little 4 inches, right?  It never made it to adult stage.  It got too cold one night, kept indoors even....ANYway.  I give kudos to the guy I got my Cichlid from, that he didn't flush it down the toilet, and I to ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?   Unfortunately it's quite common for local fish stores (LFS) to sell fish that they don't know anything about. I once ended up with a MONSTER catfish, sure he was cute at only 2 inches, but at the rate he was growing he would have ended up 6 feet in a year. I rehomed him to someone pretty quickly. I just wonder how many of these monster catfish were flushed or dumped in our local water-ways. Amber On 7/10/2011 6:30 AM, A B wrote: > > Awesome info, thanks Dawn. He's between 2-2.5 inches. I'm not the > best at eyeballing size, but he's roughly the length of the average > man's index finger. So he's maybe 3 months I'm guessing? I read that > these fish don't grow as fast in a pet store, so hard to gauge, but > that would be my uneducated guess. Can you imagine even getting a > fish at the store, and neither the pet store people nor the buyer know > the breed, and then to just plop it into a community tank? That part > was just too incredibly weird. And then surprise, your other fish > start disappearing, lol....it's not really funny, just kind of > strange. The poor guy who gave him to me was really stressed out and > seemed glad to let my boy go. I'm guessing my fish was hungry and > just helped himself. Doubt he even touched the flakes. He's awesome > and I'm already attached to him. > > Laura :-) > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:01 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > Stress. It takes time for a new fish to settle in. The others have > offered some great advice so far, however, a jewel cichlid will likely > eat adult guppies even when pretty small itself, the smaller the tank > the faster that will happen. > Jewels are awesome fish if they have the appropriate environment. If > you can tell us how big it is that would give us a better indication > of what it has now vs what it needs or will soon need. (if its healthy > it will grow fast) > > The average jewel cichlid will get to about 6 inches as an adult, and > as was already mentioned, they can be very aggressive and territorial, > especially if spawning. They actually can mix quite well with some of > the larger African cichlid species if the tank is large enough. > > The more caves and hide outs you can offer the more comfortable and > peaceful it is likely to be. > > I wouldn't worry much about lack of appetite for at least a few days. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. > but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like > when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me > because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I > took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he > LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real > plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a > larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be > either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of > fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51691	From: haecklers	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Well, I think they decided just 4 fry weren't worth the effort and ate them during the night/early morning because the next day there were none to be seen and the angels had lost all the protective/parenting behavior and were again peacefully mingling with the cories and lone guppy (all that's left in there now). The female looks really fat with eggs, tho, so I'm hopeful they'll try again in a week or sooner. We've been feeding them really well - had an excess of mosquito larvae for a few days and also some bloodworms, so they should have a good spawn this time. Hopefully with more experience and fewer predators things will go better this time around. If not, I now know to remove the last of the fry if there are only a few left - tho I did want the parents to figure out they're SUPPOSED to start swimming around! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > I'm finding all of this fascinating reading & looking forward to the next > installment! > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 9 July 2011 11:51, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > That is really interesting Dawn! Please keep us updated on your surrogacy > > study! > > > > My guppies ate all but about 4 of the fry yesterday. The parents had a bad > > day, they thought the fry should stay stuck to wherever they put them but > > the fry kept swimming around. So both parents were working full-time trying > > to basically keep the fry from swimming! With them so busy and their mouths > > full, the guppies had plenty of opportunity to dart in and grab a quick > > bite. I really didn't think they'd eat them up so fast. > > > > I removed the female guppies, but couldn't catch the male. It seemed the > > angelfish understood - as I tried to catch the guppies when they swam to the > > other side of the tank to avoid my net the angels chased them back, right to > > the net. They allow the male guppy to be near the fry, he's an Endler's so > > he's really small. I decided maybe he's not a threat to them and let him > > stay. > > > > Interesting how they can eat, chase other fish, etc. with a mouthful of > > fry! Several times now I've seen them eat food then later spit out some fry. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray, sorry for the confusion about my angel pairs. I only have 2 pairs > > now, one of the females ended up egg bound about 6 months ago and I lost > > her. > > > The pair that has spawned successfully is the pair in the 90 gallon, the > > only angels in that tank (except for their fry). I ended up having to give > > each pair their own tank to avoid them from ripping each other up every time > > someone wanted to spawn. So no, I've never had fry in a tank that held more > > than one pair of angels at a time. Eggs, yes... fry, never. > > > In the 90 gallon where I got the successful spawn, along with the angel > > pair was a pair of gold barbs (who ate fry), 5 cherry barbs (who ate fry), a > > full grown red tail shark (6 - 7 inches), a rubber pleco, and a multitude of > > snails (rams horn, trumpets, and now a mystery snail). Once the fry hatched > > I had to remove the barbs because they were just more than the parent > > angelfish could handle, ambush predators at their best. Once the barbs were > > removed the problems went away quickly. The red tail shark and pleco have > > been in the tank throughout without any problems, and the shark actually has > > been swimming with the fry (with parents permission) since they were about > > 1/2 inch long. Its an interesting situation to watch. The parents seem to > > know when he's a threat and when he's not, most often he's allowed to swim > > freely without parents chasing him off. > > > > > > One of my 65 gallon tanks now holds the other pair of angels (still > > trying to get a successful spawn from them) and 3 gold white clouds, along > > with trumpet snails. They spawn regularly but continue to eat the eggs every > > time. Once the current fry are gone in a couple of wks I am hoping the > > timing of the 2 pairs spawning allows me to start working on the surrogacy > > study, trying to get the successful pair to raise eggs/fry from both pairs > > at the same time. The successful pair is staying in the 90 gallon as it is > > now since I know they have already done well there. > > > > > > Sorry its so confusing, I have too many tanks that are the same size > > running right now. Just wanted to clarify about where I've had success and > > where I haven't and who was in the tank at the time. > > > > > > Also I wanted to note about the lighting... the 90 gallon has 2 fixtures, > > a standard T5 and a HO T5. The standard T5 is on 24/7, the HOT5 has a > > regular day/night cycle. This helped with the adults not eating the fry when > > they hatched, however, I have seen some issues this presented in the fry as > > they got bigger/older with being afraid of the dark. Once they were all at > > least dime size I attempted to turn the T5 fixture off at night, only to see > > that my fry freaked out every time it got too dark. It has taken about a > > month now to acclimate them to darker conditions at night. The fry that have > > moved to other tanks do fine, its only the ones with the parent fish that > > have issues because as soon as the lights all go out the parents panic and > > herd the fry to one corner of the tank for protection which makes the fry > > panic and swim into each other and the sides of the tank. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things involved > > with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability of the > > pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that aren't > > eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding > > success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of their > > environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking may > > also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of more > > aggressive Angelfish. > > > > > > > > I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs > > earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less > > aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, which > > eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I would > > not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these > > circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing an > > influence on them. > > > > > > > > Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair was > > eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and even > > ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive pair. > > > > > > > > > > Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a major > > effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. Just > > another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much activity > > in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the water > > not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the list of > > causes goes on. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive > > courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the > > opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the more > > aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the eggs or > > wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs or > > fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved all > > the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging their > > little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems to be > > a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. > > They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are at > > risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their > > "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > > > > > > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on which > > angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive during > > courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when the > > two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them both > > ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the first > > time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small spawn > > that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile eggs > > but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also some > > photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey with > > his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once the > > moderators approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51692	From: Ray	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Laura, Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered expendable. As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live feeders.  Supposedly helps > their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a tank change with > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > >   > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51693	From: A B	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Perhaps not.  If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have asked.  On to other subjects. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:24 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?   Laura, Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered expendable. As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live feeders.  Supposedly helps > their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a tank change with > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > >   > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51694	From: Ray	Date: 7/10/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Laura, You already asked for comments to your thread, with the Subject Line you started as asking; "Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?" I see no reason for you to make such a rude comment. As you wanted information concerning your fish, I filled you in on what should have been useful and constructive information pertinent to your thread. This List is not only for your benefit, but for the benefit of all our members here. As such, we are obligated to ensure only the most accurate information is posted, as we know it. You may choose to accept it or not, but I still find the need to set the record straight for the rest of the members. As you concluded that your Jewel Cichlid is a Hemichromis bimaculatus based solely on it having two spots on its side, this I.D. also coincides with the other species in this clade -- which the members here should be made aware of even if you wish not to receive this specific information. After all, it was you who first wrote this misleading info that can be applied to many other Jewel Fish species -- and you who asked for "Anyone with jewel cichlid experience." I'm glad to see your input here though, and the many constructive responses added to this thread by others -- and I thank you for initiating this Subject. However, I must ask you to follow the Rules of this Yahoo List; among them, not being abusive, rude or inconsiderate. BTW, I notice that much of the time you do not even sign, which can be seen as an inconsiderate gesture, although I allowed this to pass. There are a few others here who may not always sign, but they have supplied sufficiently good cause not to. As rudeness is not tolerated on this List, I find no other choice but to put you on moderation for the time being, but hope to see you continue to contribute here. Best of Luck with your Jewel Fish. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > Perhaps not.  If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have asked.  On to other subjects. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > >   > Laura, > > Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). > > Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. > > You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish > can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered expendable. > > As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. > > Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live > feeders.  Supposedly helps > > their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a > tank change with > > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > >   > > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. > > > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51695	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

You asked for his, and everyone else's, opinions when you began this thread. To quote JarJar Binks, "How rude." ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone On Jul 10, 2011, at 7:43 PM, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > Perhaps not. If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have asked. On to other subjects. > > ________________________________ > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51696	From: Al Keep	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: the heat.

hi folks. we're goin through quite a heat wave in ontario. my 20g tank is holding at about 82 degrees. my mm platy seems to disagree with the current state of affairs the most... hanging out at the bottom and resting...hes active when its feeding time.... the cories may be a bit hot also... question... has anyone made ice cubes from treated water to give them some relief? .... i wouldnt wanna give then too many at once and shock them. ive been keeping the lid up and puttin a fan on them to help... so if no one thinks a bit of ice is a good idea then they'll just have to suck it up like the humans i guess.... :- )>>> tks. all.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51697	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.

I use frozen bottles of water. Gatorade 32 ounce bottles or 16 ounce water bottles. We have them on rotation right now to keep the water in range. Also I am only turning lights on in the evening after the house has cooled down. The covers are off the tanks that don't have jumpers. A fan aimed across the top of the water can also help cool the tanks down a bit. -Mike -----Original Message----- From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 8:21 am Subject: [AquaticLife] the heat. hi folks. we're goin through quite a heat wave in ontario. my 20g tank is holding at about 82 degrees. my mm platy seems to disagree with the current state of affairs the most... hanging out at the bottom and resting...hes active when its feeding time.... the cories may be a bit hot also... question... has anyone made ice cubes from treated water to give them some relief? .... i wouldnt wanna give then too many at once and shock them. ive been keeping the lid up and puttin a fan on them to help... so if no one thinks a bit of ice is a good idea then they'll just have to suck it up like the humans i guess.... :- )>>> tks. all.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51698	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Laura, I'm not sure why you responded this way to Ray's post but you should know I agree with all of the information he offered you. We are all trying to help give you information that you requested. The other thing I'd like to add is that a 20 gallon tank is only going to be temporary housing for this fish, it will outgrow that size of a tank quite soon. An adult jewel cichlid (whichever it turns out to be) will need at least a 40 gallon tank as an adult. This is something to prepare for ahead of time so you don't end up with a sick fish. Ray offered you some good information about feeding. You should know that offering feeder fish, even if they are something such as neons or other small tetras, is not going to be a healthy food source for your fish. Neons (or other tropical fish) do not offer the nutrition your fish needs. A high protein diet for a jewel cichlid will cause fat deposits to build up on the organs over time, which can cause an early death, among other things. Jewels are omnivore, so some protein is ok, but plant/veggie matter such as Ray suggested along with algae sheets and algae in the tank if/when it grows, along with aquatic plants such as anacharis will help to round out the fish's diet properly. Teaching your fish to accept pellet foods designed for cichlids, such as the Spectrum New Life pellets, is a good idea. The pellet foods are more balanced nutrition to help avoid malnutrition, which many captive fish end up suffering from. If you choose to work with any kind of live food, worms and ghost shrimp should be easily accepted and would be the most appropriate live food for this species of fish. I would also go easy on the egg... being high in protein and messy as Ray mentioned, it should be used more as a treat food than a standard part of the diet. I hope this information helps you to provide a long and healthy life for your new fish. Jewel cichlids can live 10 - 20 yrs if properly cared for, so this is a long term commitment. If you have other questions I'm sure we would all be happy to contribute. Our only goal here in this group is to help others be successful and to teach the many things the pet stores don't bother (or know) to teach. Best of luck to you, Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > Perhaps not.  If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have asked.  On to other subjects. > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > >   > Laura, > > Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). > > Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. > > You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish > can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered expendable. > > As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. > > Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live > feeders.  Supposedly helps > > their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a > tank change with > > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > >   > > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. > > > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51699	From: William M	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

Too any people (especially newbies) go into a pet sop and buy what ever "cute little" fish they see. They might be luucky and get compatable fish but often they might wind up with that cute oscar and put it in with their other fish that seem to start dissapearing when the oscar (or other "small" fish starts growing. As far as "jewel cichlids, I have had several species and spawned them. They make wonderful parents. If the tank is large enough (55 gallon minimun) you could also mix with Central American cichlids of simular size. And yes cichlids such as convicts can and will kill piranhas when spawning in the same tank even if the piranhas are much larger. I would think that the jewels would be just as aggresive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@...> wrote: > > I believe it.  Anything to make money sometimes, unfortunately.  When I was a kid, my older brother got a pet aligator at a pet store (here's my chance to criticize my mom's parenting skills, lol).  And of course, we all know they never grow past the cute little 4 inches, right?  It never made it to adult stage.  It got too cold one night, kept indoors even....ANYway.  I give kudos to the guy I got my Cichlid from, that he didn't flush it down the toilet, and I to > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 1:47 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > >   > Unfortunately it's quite common for local fish stores (LFS) to sell fish > that they don't know anything about. I once ended up with a MONSTER > catfish, sure he was cute at only 2 inches, but at the rate he was > growing he would have ended up 6 feet in a year. I rehomed him to > someone pretty quickly. > I just wonder how many of these monster catfish were flushed or dumped > in our local water-ways. > > Amber > > On 7/10/2011 6:30 AM, A B wrote: > > > > Awesome info, thanks Dawn. He's between 2-2.5 inches. I'm not the > > best at eyeballing size, but he's roughly the length of the average > > man's index finger. So he's maybe 3 months I'm guessing? I read that > > these fish don't grow as fast in a pet store, so hard to gauge, but > > that would be my uneducated guess. Can you imagine even getting a > > fish at the store, and neither the pet store people nor the buyer know > > the breed, and then to just plop it into a community tank? That part > > was just too incredibly weird. And then surprise, your other fish > > start disappearing, lol....it's not really funny, just kind of > > strange. The poor guy who gave him to me was really stressed out and > > seemed glad to let my boy go. I'm guessing my fish was hungry and > > just helped himself. Doubt he even touched the flakes. He's awesome > > and I'm already attached to him. > > > > Laura :-) > > > > ________________________________ > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com>> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 10:01 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > > Stress. It takes time for a new fish to settle in. The others have > > offered some great advice so far, however, a jewel cichlid will likely > > eat adult guppies even when pretty small itself, the smaller the tank > > the faster that will happen. > > Jewels are awesome fish if they have the appropriate environment. If > > you can tell us how big it is that would give us a better indication > > of what it has now vs what it needs or will soon need. (if its healthy > > it will grow fast) > > > > The average jewel cichlid will get to about 6 inches as an adult, and > > as was already mentioned, they can be very aggressive and territorial, > > especially if spawning. They actually can mix quite well with some of > > the larger African cichlid species if the tank is large enough. > > > > The more caves and hide outs you can offer the more comfortable and > > peaceful it is likely to be. > > > > I wouldn't worry much about lack of appetite for at least a few days. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. > > but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like > > when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me > > because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I > > took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he > > LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real > > plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a > > larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be > > either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of > > fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51700	From: Al Keep	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.

thanks mike great idea... i wont have to use treated water and they wont get thier tounges stuck on the ice :- )>>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@... wrote: > > I use frozen bottles of water. Gatorade 32 ounce bottles or 16 ounce > water bottles. We have them on rotation right now to keep the water in > range. > Also I am only turning lights on in the evening after the house has > cooled down. The covers are off the tanks that don't have jumpers. A > fan aimed across the top of the water can also help cool the tanks down > a bit. > > -Mike > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 8:21 am > Subject: [AquaticLife] the heat. > > > > > > hi folks. > we're goin through quite a heat wave in ontario. > my 20g tank is holding at about 82 degrees. > my mm platy seems to disagree with the current state of affairs the > most... hanging out at the bottom and resting...hes active when its > feeding time.... the cories may be a bit hot also... > question... has anyone made ice cubes from treated water > to give them some relief? .... i wouldnt wanna give then too many > at once and shock them. > ive been keeping the lid up and puttin a fan on them to help... > so if no one thinks a bit of ice is a good idea then they'll just > have to suck it up like the humans i guess.... :- )>>> > tks. all. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51701	From: William M	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: found baby!

Have you bought any live plants (fine leaved plants) in the last month or so? If so it might be any of the fish that are farmed with the live plants where the plants are grown. YOu might have some fancy minnow from Florida or any of a number of other fish that live where the plants are grown. Good luck with it/them and post some pictures when and if you can. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Chloe <chloelikeohman@...> wrote: > > I haven't noticed them laying any eggs but I haven't exactly been looking either > > Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > >Have you seen any of your tetras laying eggs on plants/gravel? From what > >I've read on tetras they tend to be egg scatterers just like Danios are. > >So they would have scattered their eggs across the gravel/plants in your > >tank, and the other fish would have been quick to start eating them too. > > > >Amber > > > >On 7/7/2011 4:20 PM, Chloe wrote: > >> > >> I have found a very small baby in my 55 gallon community tank. he > >> didn't come out for long and went right back into the volcano where he > >> came from. he almost got sucked up by my filter but made it away to > >> only be almost eaten by one of my neon tetras. luckily he made it > >> safely back into the volcano. the only problem I have right now is > >> that I have no idea what to do with him nor do I know what he is. > >> there may be more I'm not quite sure, I did my weekly water change > >> yesterday and didn't find any. I have 12 neon tetras, 2 glow light > >> tetras, 2 glofish, 5 zebra danios, 2 painted glass fish, 3 minnows > >> from my pond, 5 guppies, 2 red wag platies, 1 sunburst platy, 1 mickey > >> mouse platy, 3 dalmation molly babies, 3 mickey mouse platy babies and > >> a guppy baby. I know what all the live bearer babies look like when > >> theyre born but I dont know what any of the other babies look like > >> when born. the little guy I found was very little, half the size of a > >> molly baby and a grayish color. like I said he was only out for a > >> short time so I couldn't look and see much about him. if anyone has > >> any advice for me that would be great or to aide me in figuring out > >> what this baby is. > >> > >> thanks > >> -chloe* > >> > >> >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51702	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: the heat.

Just make sure to use CLEAN bottles (on the outside of the bottle), so remove glue residue and such, as it will soak off into the water and may cause fish problems. Amber On 7/11/2011 8:47 AM, Deenerz@... wrote: > > I use frozen bottles of water. Gatorade 32 ounce bottles or 16 ounce > water bottles. We have them on rotation right now to keep the water in > range. > Also I am only turning lights on in the evening after the house has > cooled down. The covers are off the tanks that don't have jumpers. A > fan aimed across the top of the water can also help cool the tanks down > a bit. > > -Mike > > -----Original Message----- > From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@... <mailto:al_keep_fish%40yahoo.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Mon, Jul 11, 2011 8:21 am > Subject: [AquaticLife] the heat. > > hi folks. > we're goin through quite a heat wave in ontario. > my 20g tank is holding at about 82 degrees. > my mm platy seems to disagree with the current state of affairs the > most... hanging out at the bottom and resting...hes active when its > feeding time.... the cories may be a bit hot also... > question... has anyone made ice cubes from treated water > to give them some relief? .... i wouldnt wanna give then too many > at once and shock them. > ive been keeping the lid up and puttin a fan on them to help... > so if no one thinks a bit of ice is a good idea then they'll just > have to suck it up like the humans i guess.... :- )>>> > tks. all. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51703	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: my oscars - dee

i was given 2 very large oscars. i moved them from a 55 gallon take to a 100. i had to do a treatment for ick. it seems to be gone. they seem ok. they jump and come up to see me. but they are very sluggish in eating. i have tried the dried liver, flakes, floating pellets and dried blood worms. i am raising some mollies for them. is this a normal behavior? their dorsals are up and they don't do any side floating. i remove any old food daily and do a 1/4 water change every 4 days. any hints. their black & red colors are just as vivid as ever. could the be missing their old owners who had them for 5 years? dee

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51704	From: ScottW	Date: 7/11/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

I really enjoy jewels. I always wondered how they would do with Green Terrors. Seems like the two could coexist if there are enough of them. Scott P.S. Thanks for keeping the group informative and civil. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Laura, > I'm not sure why you responded this way to Ray's post but you should know I agree with all of the information he offered you. We are all trying to help give you information that you requested. > The other thing I'd like to add is that a 20 gallon tank is only going to be temporary housing for this fish, it will outgrow that size of a tank quite soon. An adult jewel cichlid (whichever it turns out to be) will need at least a 40 gallon tank as an adult. This is something to prepare for ahead of time so you don't end up with a sick fish. > > Ray offered you some good information about feeding. You should know that offering feeder fish, even if they are something such as neons or other small tetras, is not going to be a healthy food source for your fish. Neons (or other tropical fish) do not offer the nutrition your fish needs. A high protein diet for a jewel cichlid will cause fat deposits to build up on the organs over time, which can cause an early death, among other things. Jewels are omnivore, so some protein is ok, but plant/veggie matter such as Ray suggested along with algae sheets and algae in the tank if/when it grows, along with aquatic plants such as anacharis will help to round out the fish's diet properly. Teaching your fish to accept pellet foods designed for cichlids, such as the Spectrum New Life pellets, is a good idea. The pellet foods are more balanced nutrition to help avoid malnutrition, which many captive fish end up suffering from. If you choose to work with any kind of live food, worms and ghost shrimp should be easily accepted and would be the most appropriate live food for this species of fish. I would also go easy on the egg... being high in protein and messy as Ray mentioned, it should be used more as a treat food than a standard part of the diet. > > I hope this information helps you to provide a long and healthy life for your new fish. Jewel cichlids can live 10 - 20 yrs if properly cared for, so this is a long term commitment. If you have other questions I'm sure we would all be happy to contribute. Our only goal here in this group is to help others be successful and to teach the many things the pet stores don't bother (or know) to teach. > > Best of luck to you, > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > Perhaps not.  If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have asked.  On to other subjects. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:24 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > >   > > Laura, > > > > Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). > > > > Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. > > > > You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish > > can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered expendable. > > > > As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. > > > > Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > Hey, thanks.  I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.  Nice info to have for questions and reference purposes.  He ate nothing of the grass or the dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.  He's supposed to be omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying with different plants.  And victory this morning!!  I was peeling a hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.  It's animal, it's protein, and it's easily digestible.  So I gave him a small piece of egg white, and he wolfed it down.  Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.  And my sister recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and PetSmart, so will try that next.  And yeah, am considering small live > > feeders.  Supposedly helps > > > their color come out better too, when they eat live.  Also, a lot of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am going to try tetras or maybe neons.  He can at eat them if nothing else, and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.  I was reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is very hyper.  So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.  He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.  Funny, lol....how I got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.  I even read online the Cichlid will take on a Piranha.  Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a > > tank change with > > > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 hours.  I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the entire time, but he's fine.  In the big tank last night night he was diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just wild!  I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > > > > >   > > > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > > > > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become territorial bullies. > > > > > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies that most other fish love to eat! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a larger tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51705	From: Ray	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Hi Dee, Oscars and other more highly advanced fishes do get to know their owners/feeders and gain an attachment to them. Their owners become as much a part of their environment as the immediate surroundings of their tank -- especially as they learn this is where their food is coming from. Other, less intelligent fishes also learn this association, but the connection doesn't become as intimate. Your Oscars could be missing their old owner, which could account for their sluggish eating behavior, but their new surroundings could be just as much responsible for this, or more. As you've had these two Oscars now for at least better than two weeks now, they should be getting used to you as the one who's feeding them. I have to assume that this 55 gallon tank you moved them from was the previous owner's and not yours, as I haven't seen you mention you had any tanks yet (you had previously asked about whether 150 gallon tanks were made). The 100 gallon Rubbermaid trough you have these Oscars in is quite a large change in their environment from an aquarium that they were used to living in for 5 years. Even though this is providing them with almost twice the space, still, it may appear more confining to them as they see nothing but walls -- they do not have any view of their environment beyond this trough. Another factor that would play into this is their present water conditions/parameters. If your water is different enough from the previous owner's water that they lived in for as long as you mentioned, it will take some time before they feel entirely comfortable in it -- even if they were properly 'adjusted' to it. If these Oscars were raised and lived in acid water for 5 years, and if you're maintaining them in basic (alkaline) conditions, this is a big change for them. I still think the biggest change for them as far as their environment goes, is the container you're presently keeping them in. Other fishes may not mind as much, but I think they'd be happier in an aquarium. You selection of foods may also cause them to appear lackluster if they're not very enthused with these foods. Flake food is way too small for 5 year old Oscars, and dried blood worms aren't really a very big mouthfull for them either. I haven't seen dried liver being sold in aquarium shops, but it doesn't sound very appetizing to me. Try them on frozen (thawed) krill and jumbo mysis shrimp, shrimp pellets, live earthworms, freeze-dried krill and even occasional frozen/thawed silversides as a variety. Some hobbyists even feed them live crickets, and mealworms. Good foods, but you don't want any crickets escaping; if their males, they'll drive you nuts with their chirping < g >. I noticed too, that you said here that "they JUMP and come up to see me." You asked previously, when you first introduced yourself last month, if Oscars cam jump and I told you yes, that they can -- and advised you to keep them covered as they could jump out. I hope you're taking precautions against this possibility. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "oranjedee" <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > i was given 2 very large oscars. i moved them from a 55 gallon take to a 100. i had to do a treatment for ick. it seems to be gone. they seem ok. they jump and come up to see me. but they are very sluggish in eating. i have tried the dried liver, flakes, floating pellets and dried blood worms. i am raising some mollies for them. is this a normal behavior? their dorsals are up and they don't do any side floating. i remove any old food daily and do a 1/4 water change every 4 days. any hints. their black & red colors are just as vivid as ever. could the be missing their old owners who had them for 5 years? dee >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51706	From: Wendie	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew as soon as you touched it. Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:42 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee Hi Dee, Oscars and other more highly advanced fishes do get to know their owners/feeders and gain an attachment to them. Their owners become as much a part of their environment as the immediate surroundings of their tank -- especially as they learn this is where their food is coming from. Other, less intelligent fishes also learn this association, but the connection doesn't become as intimate. Your Oscars could be missing their old owner, which could account for their sluggish eating behavior, but their new surroundings could be just as much responsible for this, or more. As you've had these two Oscars now for at least better than two weeks now, they should be getting used to you as the one who's feeding them. I have to assume that this 55 gallon tank you moved them from was the previous owner's and not yours, as I haven't seen you mention you had any tanks yet (you had previously asked about whether 150 gallon tanks were made). The 100 gallon Rubbermaid trough you have these Oscars in is quite a large change in their environment from an aquarium that they were used to living in for 5 years. Even though this is providing them with almost twice the space, still, it may appear more confining to them as they see nothing but walls -- they do not have any view of their environment beyond this trough. Another factor that would play into this is their present water conditions/parameters. If your water is different enough from the previous owner's water that they lived in for as long as you mentioned, it will take some time before they feel entirely comfortable in it -- even if they were properly 'adjusted' to it. If these Oscars were raised and lived in acid water for 5 years, and if you're maintaining them in basic (alkaline) conditions, this is a big change for them. I still think the biggest change for them as far as their environment goes, is the container you're presently keeping them in. Other fishes may not mind as much, but I think they'd be happier in an aquarium. You selection of foods may also cause them to appear lackluster if they're not very enthused with these foods. Flake food is way too small for 5 year old Oscars, and dried blood worms aren't really a very big mouthfull for them either. I haven't seen dried liver being sold in aquarium shops, but it doesn't sound very appetizing to me. Try them on frozen (thawed) krill and jumbo mysis shrimp, shrimp pellets, live earthworms, freeze-dried krill and even occasional frozen/thawed silversides as a variety. Some hobbyists even feed them live crickets, and mealworms. Good foods, but you don't want any crickets escaping; if their males, they'll drive you nuts with their chirping < g >. I noticed too, that you said here that "they JUMP and come up to see me." You asked previously, when you first introduced yourself last month, if Oscars cam jump and I told you yes, that they can -- and advised you to keep them covered as they could jump out. I hope you're taking precautions against this possibility. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "oranjedee" <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > i was given 2 very large oscars. i moved them from a 55 gallon take to a > 100. i had to do a treatment for ick. it seems to be gone. they seem > ok. they jump and come up to see me. but they are very sluggish in > eating. i have tried the dried liver, flakes, floating pellets and dried > blood worms. i am raising some mollies for them. is this a normal > behavior? their dorsals are up and they don't do any side floating. i > remove any old food daily and do a 1/4 water change every 4 days. any > hints. their black & red colors are just as vivid as ever. could the be > missing their old owners who had them for 5 years? dee > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51707	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

thanks for the info. it sounds they have the needs like cockatoo (umbrella) fred has. except i am sure they don't want to come out and sit on my shoulder (lol) i am in a quandry. i am buying a house which will close soon i hope. its a repo and the bank is dragging its feet. i have looked at some very nice, used aquars. up to 250 gallons. i am concerned that if i get the aquarm now and have to break it down in a month, the seals will break, etc. but i hate for them to stay in the tub. i do talk to them and they are now coming to the surface when i approach. i have set up a little breeding tank for some mollies and sword tails to suppliment their diets. i had a couple worms left from a fishing trip and gave them to them. they were curious and bumped them. is there anything i should not try to feed them? like my parrot can't have dairy products. i do appreciate any help i receive. i have grown attached to them. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: wendieo@... Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew as soon as you touched it. Wendie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2011 8:42 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee Hi Dee, Oscars and other more highly advanced fishes do get to know their owners/feeders and gain an attachment to them. Their owners become as much a part of their environment as the immediate surroundings of their tank -- especially as they learn this is where their food is coming from. Other, less intelligent fishes also learn this association, but the connection doesn't become as intimate. Your Oscars could be missing their old owner, which could account for their sluggish eating behavior, but their new surroundings could be just as much responsible for this, or more. As you've had these two Oscars now for at least better than two weeks now, they should be getting used to you as the one who's feeding them. I have to assume that this 55 gallon tank you moved them from was the previous owner's and not yours, as I haven't seen you mention you had any tanks yet (you had previously asked about whether 150 gallon tanks were made). The 100 gallon Rubbermaid trough you have these Oscars in is quite a large change in their environment from an aquarium that they were used to living in for 5 years. Even though this is providing them with almost twice the space, still, it may appear more confining to them as they see nothing but walls -- they do not have any view of their environment beyond this trough. Another factor that would play into this is their present water conditions/parameters. If your water is different enough from the previous owner's water that they lived in for as long as you mentioned, it will take some time before they feel entirely comfortable in it -- even if they were properly 'adjusted' to it. If these Oscars were raised and lived in acid water for 5 years, and if you're maintaining them in basic (alkaline) conditions, this is a big change for them. I still think the biggest change for them as far as their environment goes, is the container you're presently keeping them in. Other fishes may not mind as much, but I think they'd be happier in an aquarium. You selection of foods may also cause them to appear lackluster if they're not very enthused with these foods. Flake food is way too small for 5 year old Oscars, and dried blood worms aren't really a very big mouthfull for them either. I haven't seen dried liver being sold in aquarium shops, but it doesn't sound very appetizing to me. Try them on frozen (thawed) krill and jumbo mysis shrimp, shrimp pellets, live earthworms, freeze-dried krill and even occasional frozen/thawed silversides as a variety. Some hobbyists even feed them live crickets, and mealworms. Good foods, but you don't want any crickets escaping; if their males, they'll drive you nuts with their chirping < g >. I noticed too, that you said here that "they JUMP and come up to see me." You asked previously, when you first introduced yourself last month, if Oscars cam jump and I told you yes, that they can -- and advised you to keep them covered as they could jump out. I hope you're taking precautions against this possibility. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51708	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: wendieo@... Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew as soon as you touched it. Wendie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51709	From: Ray	Date: 7/12/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Crab meat's fine, as part of the variety of their diet. Be sure to clean up any leftovers though, as they'll pollute the water. What do you feed the parrot, that you're thinking of feeding the Oscars with? If it's seeds and nuts, these should not be given to Oscars as they have no way of "chewing" them into digestible pieces or opening the seed shells. Seeds could also get caught in their digestive system. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: wendieo@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I > > also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food > > container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew > > as soon as you touched it. > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51710	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

fred eats a concentrated pellet food. vitamins, etc. the pellets disolve. but they didn't have a chance. slurp. i only hand fed a couple to them. but, thanks for letting me know they can't chew. so it will be soft. i want to get them some aquirm plant life. can they have pieces of meat. fred loves chicken. no skin or bones. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: sevenspringss@... Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:30:41 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee Crab meat's fine, as part of the variety of their diet. Be sure to clean up any leftovers though, as they'll pollute the water. What do you feed the parrot, that you're thinking of feeding the Oscars with? If it's seeds and nuts, these should not be given to Oscars as they have no way of "chewing" them into digestible pieces or opening the seed shells. Seeds could also get caught in their digestive system. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: wendieo@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I > > also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food > > container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew > > as soon as you touched it. > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51711	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! John*<o)))<* On 10 July 2011 20:57, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > Well, I think they decided just 4 fry weren't worth the effort and ate them > during the night/early morning because the next day there were none to be > seen and the angels had lost all the protective/parenting behavior and were > again peacefully mingling with the cories and lone guppy (all that's left in > there now). > > The female looks really fat with eggs, tho, so I'm hopeful they'll try > again in a week or sooner. We've been feeding them really well - had an > excess of mosquito larvae for a few days and also some bloodworms, so they > should have a good spawn this time. Hopefully with more experience and fewer > predators things will go better this time around. If not, I now know to > remove the last of the fry if there are only a few left - tho I did want the > parents to figure out they're SUPPOSED to start swimming around! > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > I'm finding all of this fascinating reading & looking forward to the next > > installment! > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 9 July 2011 11:51, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > That is really interesting Dawn! Please keep us updated on your > surrogacy > > > study! > > > > > > My guppies ate all but about 4 of the fry yesterday. The parents had a > bad > > > day, they thought the fry should stay stuck to wherever they put them > but > > > the fry kept swimming around. So both parents were working full-time > trying > > > to basically keep the fry from swimming! With them so busy and their > mouths > > > full, the guppies had plenty of opportunity to dart in and grab a quick > > > bite. I really didn't think they'd eat them up so fast. > > > > > > I removed the female guppies, but couldn't catch the male. It seemed > the > > > angelfish understood - as I tried to catch the guppies when they swam > to the > > > other side of the tank to avoid my net the angels chased them back, > right to > > > the net. They allow the male guppy to be near the fry, he's an Endler's > so > > > he's really small. I decided maybe he's not a threat to them and let > him > > > stay. > > > > > > Interesting how they can eat, chase other fish, etc. with a mouthful of > > > fry! Several times now I've seen them eat food then later spit out some > fry. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray, sorry for the confusion about my angel pairs. I only have 2 > pairs > > > now, one of the females ended up egg bound about 6 months ago and I > lost > > > her. > > > > The pair that has spawned successfully is the pair in the 90 gallon, > the > > > only angels in that tank (except for their fry). I ended up having to > give > > > each pair their own tank to avoid them from ripping each other up every > time > > > someone wanted to spawn. So no, I've never had fry in a tank that held > more > > > than one pair of angels at a time. Eggs, yes... fry, never. > > > > In the 90 gallon where I got the successful spawn, along with the > angel > > > pair was a pair of gold barbs (who ate fry), 5 cherry barbs (who ate > fry), a > > > full grown red tail shark (6 - 7 inches), a rubber pleco, and a > multitude of > > > snails (rams horn, trumpets, and now a mystery snail). Once the fry > hatched > > > I had to remove the barbs because they were just more than the parent > > > angelfish could handle, ambush predators at their best. Once the barbs > were > > > removed the problems went away quickly. The red tail shark and pleco > have > > > been in the tank throughout without any problems, and the shark > actually has > > > been swimming with the fry (with parents permission) since they were > about > > > 1/2 inch long. Its an interesting situation to watch. The parents seem > to > > > know when he's a threat and when he's not, most often he's allowed to > swim > > > freely without parents chasing him off. > > > > > > > > One of my 65 gallon tanks now holds the other pair of angels (still > > > trying to get a successful spawn from them) and 3 gold white clouds, > along > > > with trumpet snails. They spawn regularly but continue to eat the eggs > every > > > time. Once the current fry are gone in a couple of wks I am hoping the > > > timing of the 2 pairs spawning allows me to start working on the > surrogacy > > > study, trying to get the successful pair to raise eggs/fry from both > pairs > > > at the same time. The successful pair is staying in the 90 gallon as it > is > > > now since I know they have already done well there. > > > > > > > > Sorry its so confusing, I have too many tanks that are the same size > > > running right now. Just wanted to clarify about where I've had success > and > > > where I haven't and who was in the tank at the time. > > > > > > > > Also I wanted to note about the lighting... the 90 gallon has 2 > fixtures, > > > a standard T5 and a HO T5. The standard T5 is on 24/7, the HOT5 has a > > > regular day/night cycle. This helped with the adults not eating the fry > when > > > they hatched, however, I have seen some issues this presented in the > fry as > > > they got bigger/older with being afraid of the dark. Once they were all > at > > > least dime size I attempted to turn the T5 fixture off at night, only > to see > > > that my fry freaked out every time it got too dark. It has taken about > a > > > month now to acclimate them to darker conditions at night. The fry that > have > > > moved to other tanks do fine, its only the ones with the parent fish > that > > > have issues because as soon as the lights all go out the parents panic > and > > > herd the fry to one corner of the tank for protection which makes the > fry > > > panic and swim into each other and the sides of the tank. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > Just as you've just got done saying, there are a lot of things > involved > > > with why some pairs eat their eggs, although the mutual compatability > of the > > > pair still goes a long way in ensuring sucessful spawnings (eggs that > aren't > > > eaten); a factor that I've observed as being primary to Angel breeding > > > success for 60 years. As might be assumed, the external stimuli of > their > > > environment also plays a role in this and anything not to their liking > may > > > also cause them to eat their eggs, including being in the presence of > more > > > aggressive Angelfish. > > > > > > > > > > I recall that while you had separated one pair from the three pairs > > > earlier, that up until more recently, you still had one of the less > > > aggressive pairs in the 65 gallon tank with the more aggressive pair, > which > > > eventually had eggs they didn't eat and that you raised fry from. I > would > > > not expect the less aggressive pair to be very successful under these > > > circumstances, with a more aggressive and dominent pair always bearing > an > > > influence on them. > > > > > > > > > > Too, I seem to recall you telling me that even the aggressive pair > was > > > eating their eggs while you still had the second pair in with them, and > even > > > ate them at least once or twice after you removed that less aggressive > pair. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting, it's intensity and duration -- on all pairs -- has a > major > > > effect on spawning pairs and their propensity for eating their eggs. > Just > > > another external stimulus, but an extremely important one. Too much > activity > > > in the room is another negative stimulus. Something as simple as the > water > > > not being exactly to their liking can cause egg eating . . . and the > list of > > > causes goes on. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I would have to disagree with the idea that the less aggressive > > > courtship means they won't eat their eggs/fry. My pairs are just the > > > opposite of that. The pair I've had successfully raise a spawn is the > more > > > aggressive of the 2 pairs. The passive pair continues to eat all the > eggs or > > > wigglers. There are a lot of things involved with why they may eat eggs > or > > > fry... personality is only one small part of that equation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Update: the eggs have hatched and yesterday the parents moved > all > > > the fry to some vallisneria, where they've stayed all day, wagging > their > > > little tails. The guppies seem to know not to mess with them. It seems > to be > > > a smallish spawn, but maybe the parents ate the first few that hatched. > > > They're taking good care of them now. I think the only time the fry are > at > > > risk is when I approach the tank because then the parents go into their > > > "Please Please feed me I'm sooo starving!" routine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I read something interesting that said you can tell early on > which > > > angelfish will eat their young because they will be very aggressive > during > > > courtship. Mine have always been very gentle with each other, even when > the > > > two males were both vying for the same female (who seemed to like them > both > > > ok) they only got a little bruising on their fins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you for all the help, folks! I think I upset them the > first > > > time by catching fish and rearranging the tank but they've got a small > spawn > > > that the parents are guarding well. There are some white/non-fertile > eggs > > > but they seem to be eating them now. Wish us luck!!! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I uploaded a photo of the mother and eggs on the slate, also > some > > > photos of our baby bristlenose plecos and our proud pappa Jack Dempsey > with > > > his fry. They're in the Haeckler's Fish album, well they will be once > the > > > moderators approve them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51712	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience?

I agree with Ray's suggestion about always keeping tanks covered no matter what the 'jumping history' of the fish inside is. You can never be too careful & a suggestion for those people having heat problems & wanting to use fans across the surface of uncovered tanks-simply use some type of sturdy netting such as pond netting & secure it around the top with sticky tape/elastic bands or even strung from the netting under the tank if you have access beneath. That way you have the aeration & peace of mind. John*<o)))< * On 12 July 2011 03:12, ScottW <kissinmera@...> wrote: > ** > > > I really enjoy jewels. I always wondered how they would do with Green > Terrors. Seems like the two could coexist if there are enough of them. > > Scott > > P.S. Thanks for keeping the group informative and civil. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Laura, > > I'm not sure why you responded this way to Ray's post but you should know > I agree with all of the information he offered you. We are all trying to > help give you information that you requested. > > The other thing I'd like to add is that a 20 gallon tank is only going to > be temporary housing for this fish, it will outgrow that size of a tank > quite soon. An adult jewel cichlid (whichever it turns out to be) will need > at least a 40 gallon tank as an adult. This is something to prepare for > ahead of time so you don't end up with a sick fish. > > > > Ray offered you some good information about feeding. You should know that > offering feeder fish, even if they are something such as neons or other > small tetras, is not going to be a healthy food source for your fish. Neons > (or other tropical fish) do not offer the nutrition your fish needs. A high > protein diet for a jewel cichlid will cause fat deposits to build up on the > organs over time, which can cause an early death, among other things. Jewels > are omnivore, so some protein is ok, but plant/veggie matter such as Ray > suggested along with algae sheets and algae in the tank if/when it grows, > along with aquatic plants such as anacharis will help to round out the > fish's diet properly. Teaching your fish to accept pellet foods designed for > cichlids, such as the Spectrum New Life pellets, is a good idea. The pellet > foods are more balanced nutrition to help avoid malnutrition, which many > captive fish end up suffering from. If you choose to work with any kind of > live food, worms and ghost shrimp should be easily accepted and would be the > most appropriate live food for this species of fish. I would also go easy on > the egg... being high in protein and messy as Ray mentioned, it should be > used more as a treat food than a standard part of the diet. > > > > I hope this information helps you to provide a long and healthy life for > your new fish. Jewel cichlids can live 10 - 20 yrs if properly cared for, so > this is a long term commitment. If you have other questions I'm sure we > would all be happy to contribute. Our only goal here in this group is to > help others be successful and to teach the many things the pet stores don't > bother (or know) to teach. > > > > Best of luck to you, > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > Perhaps not.� If I had wanted your expert opinion, I would have > asked.� On to other subjects. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, July 10, 2011 8:24 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > > > > > � > > > Laura, > > > > > > Perhaps you may want to submit a pic of your Jewel Cichlid to the > Groupsite to get the true identification. Just because this fish has 2 dark > spots on his sides does not necessarily mean it's Hemichromis bimaculatus. > There are at least four or five other Hemichromis species in the Jewel > Cichlid clade, all very similar (all being called "Jewel Cichlids") and all > growing to about the same size. You could have H. lafalili, H, cristatus, H. > letourneuxi, H. stellifer, H. sp. moanda (yet unidentified) or even H. sp. > 'Neon' (seemingly a hybrid). > > > > > > Just because any fish may be considered to be an omnivore (or ever an > herbivore) is hardly any reason to offer them terrestrial lawn grass or > dandelion leaves. No fish that I know of has the feeding habits of a rabbit. > Fish do not eat the offerings you provided. When feeding those fish which > will accept vegetable matter, you can give them such things as Romaine > lettuce, algae wafers, sliced butternut squash (blanched) or cucumber, but > in general members of the Jewelfish group prefer more meaty foods. > > > > > > You could try giving him small Cichlid pellets, but you may need to > have him get used to the idea that this is food by giving it to him at the > same time that you give him other foods which he'll take. He would > undoubtedly take small earthworms. Possibly live adult brine shrimp found at > your pet shop, but he is getting a bit big to gain very much nourishment > from such comparitively small foods. Certainly, baby brine shrimp (whether > freeze-dried or frozen) is too tiny for him. Freeze dried Krill would be > excellent for him, as soon as he gets to know what it is. Aquarium fish do > not always recognize what we're giving them as food until they get used to > it. You could continue with hard-boiled egg white (or yolk) but make sure to > clean up any leftovers since it will foul the water very fast. Do not, under > any circumstances, feed him small live feeder fish. While you may be lucky > for a while and get away with not having his health affected, feeder fish > > > can often carry diseases which would be transmitted to him eventually > as these feeders are not take well care of -- being as they're considered > expendable. > > > > > > As for your tank change, the 20 gallon tank was a great move, and I'm > sure will be a very beneficial one for him too -- but, as far as doing "all > the precautions about cycling first," please know that the cycling process > usually takes from 4 to 6 weeks. It's impossible to have done this even > overnight, unless you use one of the specific liquid product additives > containing live nitrifying bacteria. I'm assuming (hopefully)that you used > all of his water from the 5 gallon tank, and the filter media from this same > tank too (maybe even the gravel), and while this will be a big help it > cannot yet establish a full nitrogen cycle. > > > > > > Noticing you were "worried that he would jump out," as he could never > do this without having the top uncovered, it would appear that you may not > have his tank covered; if you did, there would be no need to worry. Keep in > mind that just because he didn't jump today is no reason why he couldn't > jump tomorrow or next week or next month (or next year). It only takes ONE > time for him to jump when you're not there, for it to be the end of him. > Just about ALL aquarium fish species can and will jump at some point in > time. Keep some kind of a cover on his tank at all times, no matter what you > use, even if it's just a sheet of clear plastic cut to size -- preferably at > least 1/8" thick. Thinner plastic has the tendency to take on a warp within > a couple of days from the moisture affecting only one side. If you can't > find him a cover, keep his water level down at least 4" from the top as a > temporary measure, but try to find (or buy) a cover soon. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A B <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey, thanks.��� I just found out his scientific name is hemichromis > bimaculatus, because of the 2 dark spots on his sides.��� Nice info to have > for questions and reference purposes.��� He ate nothing of the grass or the > dandelion leaves, so I took them out this morning.��� He's supposed to be > omnivorous, but so far he's looking like a carnivore, so I will keep trying > with different plants.��� And victory this morning!!��� I was peeling a > hard-boiled egg, and thought, hey, why not.��� It's animal, it's protein, > and it's easily digestible.��� So I gave him a small piece of egg white, > and he wolfed it down.��� Literally, lol...was cool watching him eat, and > to see the actual bite marks on the piece he was eating.��� And my sister > recommended getting him some shrimp at the pet store, and I see Tetra > carries freeze dried baby shrimp in the fish section of WalMart and > PetSmart, so will try that next.��� And yeah, am considering small live > > > feeders.��� Supposedly helps > > > > their color come out better too, when they eat live.��� Also, a lot > of what I read says they do better in a species-specific tank, but I am > going to try tetras or maybe neons.��� He can at eat them if nothing else, > and I will at least learn what he will tolerate and what he won't.��� I was > reading they are one of the most aggressive aquarium fish, and this guy is > very hyper.��� So far, he's let me pet him, and hasn't tried to bite.��� > He knows me already, and I read this is a good sign, that this fish will > recognize it's owner, and prefer them to strangers.��� Funny, lol....how I > got him for free on craigslist thinking I was getting a cool fish, knowing > NADA about the breed, and I end up with the Pit Bull of the fish world, > rofl....I am a beginner, but not a dumb one.��� I even read online the > Cichlid will take on a Piranha.��� Had him in a 5 gal. tank for a couple of > days and he did ok, but wouldn't move around much, then last night, I did a > > > tank change with > > > > all the precautions about cycling first, etc., and he went WILD in > the bigger tank (20 gallons, and he has it all to himself) for like 2 > hours.��� I was worried he would jump out, so I watched him like a hawk the > entire time, but he's fine.��� In the big tank last night night he was > diving, dashing from one end to the other, and diving again, and just > wild!��� I'm guessing he was just happy. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 9, 2011 9:20 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Anyone with jewel cichlid experience? > > > > > > > > > > > > ��� > > > > How big is he? They get pretty big, so if he's too big for the tank > the ammonia would be killing his appetite. You could try changing the water > really frequently to see if clean water would be the solution. You can also > add a plant that sticks out like a houseplant cutting or lucky bamboo > because the ammonia is like fertilizer to them so they'll use some of it up. > > > > > > > > The synodontis catfish make pretty cool companions for cichlids, as > do bristlenose plecos. What I'm reading says they're ok in a community tank > if they are the only jewel but if you want to breed them they become > territorial bullies. > > > > > > > > If he's still small and you're testing the water for ammonia and > nitrates and it's fine, you may want to put in a greedy fish to help him get > into a feeding frenzy when you put the food in. Guppies are often used for > this, but be sure to get a healthy one. I keep guppies in a lot of my tanks > because they're like live food self-feeders - they're always having babies > that most other fish love to eat! > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "lrcvb11" <lrcvb11@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm new to cichlids. I got my boy 2 days ago, and he SEEMS healthy. > but he won't eat. No spots or ick, no tears on his fins or body like when > they get in fights. The guy I got him from said he gave him to me because > this boy kept starting fights with all his other fish, so I took him home. I > have him in a 5-gal tank with pump, bubble rock (he LOVES the bubbles, lol, > and plays in them), toys, plastic and real plants, and I feed him the flakes > they guy gave me. I know I need a larger tank, and that's priority. So could > the lack of appetite be either the small tank, or maybe he's lonely? As an > aside, what kind of fish could I get to keep him company, once I get a > larger tank? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51713	From: Ray	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Oscars can chew to a ceretain extent or they wouldn't be able to eat pellets. While they have lots of very small almost sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws, these are used primarily for grabbing the food (not for chewing). They have a set (top and bottom) of pharyngal plates further back in the mouth between the back of the tongue and the top of the throat that they use for breaking up food before swallowing it. These plates are not designed for breaking seeds or nuts open though. Oscars are omnivores with carnivorous tendencies, and while they most often prefer 'meaty' foods, they should get a certain amount of vegetable matter if they'll take it. Fortunately, a good Cichlid pellet food (such as Hikari) is well balance. You could even try them on spirulina pellets if they'll take them, at the same time as you're feeding them some animal matter. Don't give them a meal of spirulina only, as they are not herbivores and not having a large digestive system, may have difficulties digesting such foods given by themselves. In general, but with a few exceptions, most fish cannot digest terrestrial vertebrate matter as easily as they can digest aquatic animal matter, vertebrate or invertebrate. Crab, clam, mollusk shrimp, etc. are fine as offered in smaller pieces. Small pieces of chicken are okay in moderation, but when it comes to red meats with fat, they simply cannot digest the fatty material so stay away from steak. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > fred eats a concentrated pellet food. vitamins, etc. the pellets disolve. but they didn't have a chance. slurp. i only hand fed a couple to them. but, thanks for letting me know they can't chew. so it will be soft. i want to get them some aquirm plant life. can they have pieces of meat. fred loves chicken. no skin or bones. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: sevenspringss@... > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:30:41 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Crab meat's fine, as part of the variety of their diet. Be sure to clean up any leftovers though, as they'll pollute the water. What do you feed the parrot, that you're thinking of feeding the Oscars with? If it's seeds and nuts, these should not be given to Oscars as they have no way of "chewing" them into digestible pieces or opening the seed shells. Seeds could also get caught in their digestive system. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > From: wendieo@ > > > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I > > > > > > also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food > > > > > > container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew > > > > > > as soon as you touched it. > > > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51714	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: California Teen, Coming To Colorado For Treatment Of Rare Flesh-Eati

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/21/hannele-cox-flesh-eating-fish-tank-bacteria_n_881645.html?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl1|sec1_lnk3|216661 http://tinyurl.com/69jqk4l Hannele Cox, California Teen, Coming To Colorado For Treatment Of Rare Flesh-Eating Fish Tank Bacteria In Her Hand Hannele Cox, 13, will continue her battle with a rare and virulent form of flesh-eating bacteria in her hand that she became infected with from her home fish tank. She starts further treatment at National Jewish Health Center In Denver later this week. When Cox was only 8-years-old she was cleaning out the family fish tank and contracted a very rare infection in a scrape on her hand called mycobacterium marinum, or sometimes called fish tank granuloma, according to 7News. That was five years ago and now the bacteria seems to have become drug-resistant and transformed into a "superbug" strain that is eating away tissue and several bones in her right hand which could lead to amputation. "I can't use the hand at all. I'm in pain all the time," Cox says to ABC News. --------------------<continued at link>------------------------------- \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51715	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Who Am I?

http://goanimate.com/movie/050jOlTF9Mic?utm_source=linkshare&uid=0zjNe4hSRWGg http://tinyurl.com/6ahkkv9 \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51716	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Who Am I?

Perfect! -----Original Message----- From: Steve Szabo <steve@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 13, 2011 8:46 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Who Am I? http://goanimate.com/movie/050jOlTF9Mic?utm_source=linkshare&uid=0zjNe4hSRWGg http://tinyurl.com/6ahkkv9 \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51717	From: haecklers	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > John*<o)))<*

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51718	From: William M	Date: 7/13/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

On worms bred for fishing, they might contain mite poisons that might poison your fish. It would be best (if you want to feed worms to your fish) to breed them yourself so that you know that no poisons have been given to the worms. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > thanks for the info. it sounds they have the needs like cockatoo (umbrella) fred has. except i am sure they don't want to come out and sit on my shoulder (lol) i am in a quandry. i am buying a house which will close soon i hope. its a repo and the bank is dragging its feet. i have looked at some very nice, used aquars. up to 250 gallons. i am concerned that if i get the aquarm now and have to break it down in a month, the seals will break, etc. but i hate for them to stay in the tub. i do talk to them and they are now coming to the surface when i approach. i have set up a little breeding tank for some mollies and sword tails to suppliment their diets. i had a couple worms left from a fishing trip and gave them to them. they were curious and bumped them. is there anything i should not try to feed them? like my parrot can't have dairy products. i do appreciate any help i receive. i have grown attached to them. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: wendieo@... > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51719	From: Ray	Date: 7/14/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Not trying to refute your warning here, as it may be a ligitimate one, and one that always needs heeding when it comes to any threat it may pose towards our fish no matter how inconsequential it may be. Rather than pushing the panic button though, and depriving our fish of this great food, the hobbyist may want to inquire of the companies which breed these worms for sport fishing to see if any companies in question do employ mite poisons in their worm cultures. I've been using live earthworms as yet another variety of food in the diets of some of my fishes for many decades, and have never encountered and poisonous additions, even with buying a number of different brands at different times from different LFS's. I have no idea how prevalent such a danger may be, but I've always found commercially grown live earthworms to be completely safe. Since the danger may exist though, being cautious of the possibility deserves merit, but it should not deter the use of these worms. Presently, I'm using Trout Worms produced by Evergreen brand <www.evergreennightcrawlers.com> currently incorporated under Pagonis Live Bait Ltd. They offer large nightcrawlers, dilly worms (baby nightcrawlers) and trout worms (regular earthworms). Previously, I was using Red Trout Worms offered by Jumbo brand/Jumbo Bait Company <www.jumbobaits.com>, which grow the same variety of worms. Both companies pack their worms in 4" x 4" x 2" styrofoam containers with a portion of the growing medium. Prior to these, I was using earthworms that came packed in small round (5" diameter) light blue plastic containers -- never having a problem with any brand I used. Since a possibility of mite poison apparently exists in some brands, the hobbyist may want to inquiring directly to the bait company, or try to find out from your local bait & tackle fishing shop to find out if any additives are present (if he doesn't already know), if thinking of buying them there. Generally, if these are being continually sold in one's LFS (as many aquarium shops carry them) as fish food, if they contained any poisons it would have been well known by now whether it was killing the customers' fish. Although this danger may exists, it's no reason to delete this food from your fishes' diet when safe sources may be found in your LFS. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > On worms bred for fishing, they might contain mite poisons that might poison your fish. It would be best (if you want to feed worms to your fish) to breed them yourself so that you know that no poisons have been given to the worms. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > thanks for the info. it sounds they have the needs like cockatoo (umbrella) fred has. except i am sure they don't want to come out and sit on my shoulder (lol) i am in a quandry. i am buying a house which will close soon i hope. its a repo and the bank is dragging its feet. i have looked at some very nice, used aquars. up to 250 gallons. i am concerned that if i get the aquarm now and have to break it down in a month, the seals will break, etc. but i hate for them to stay in the tub. i do talk to them and they are now coming to the surface when i approach. i have set up a little breeding tank for some mollies and sword tails to suppliment their diets. i had a couple worms left from a fishing trip and gave them to them. they were curious and bumped them. is there anything i should not try to feed them? like my parrot can't have dairy products. i do appreciate any help i receive. i have grown attached to them. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > From: wendieo@ > > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51720	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 7/14/2011
Subject: Greetings from Missouri

My first post. I recently took the aquarium habit up again. I have 3 indoor tanks going, (one for cardinal tetras, one for two paradise fish, and a community tank of platys, guppies, L144's, an elephant nose fish and some zebra nerites. ) I thought I would be smart and "won" a sale on Aqua Bid for some female platys and yesterday someone in the group gave birth to near 30 fry, oh my. Needles to say there is now a couple make do out door pond type containers with fry in one and pregnant platys in the other. oh, oh, what ever shall I do with all those fry? Bunny

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51721	From: c	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Goldfish molting

Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) with 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at the label till now). Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. My questions: Is the molting caused by the water? Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the levels and wait? The molting doesn't look like this http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think it is a disease.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51722	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

I'm confused. Are you saying you have those 3 fish in a tank smaller than 5 gallons or are you saying you changed less than 5 gallons out of the tank? How big is this tank? Amber On 7/15/2011 7:05 AM, c wrote: > > Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a > small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) with > 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at > the label till now). > Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. > Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. > Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of > aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water > conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > > My questions: > Is the molting caused by the water? > Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the > levels and wait? > The molting doesn't look like this > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think > it is a disease. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51723	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

Hi C, I'm a little confused about your tank size as well-if your total gallonage is only 5 then you are heading for disaster no matter how well you try to keep on top of things. By molting do you mean your fish is loosing his scales? If possible can you post some pictures? meantime have a look through the info on this link: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html it's an excellent overview of Goldfish care in general John*<o)))< * On 15 July 2011 17:46, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > I'm confused. > Are you saying you have those 3 fish in a tank smaller than 5 gallons or > are you saying you changed less than 5 gallons out of the tank? > How big is this tank? > > Amber > > On 7/15/2011 7:05 AM, c wrote: > > > > Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a > > small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) with > > 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at > > the label till now). > > Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. > > Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. > > Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of > > aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water > > conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > > > > My questions: > > Is the molting caused by the water? > > Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the > > levels and wait? > > The molting doesn't look like this > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think > > it is a disease. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51724	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

I don't agree with how many gallons that site says to have per goldfish. It really should be at least 30 gallons per fancy goldfish and much larger for commons and comets. Amber On 7/15/2011 1:02 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi C, > > I'm a little confused about your tank size as well-if your total gallonage > is only 5 then you are heading for disaster no matter how well you try to > keep on top of things. By molting do you mean your fish is loosing his > scales? If possible can you post some pictures? meantime have a look > through > the info on this link: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html > it's > an excellent overview of Goldfish care in general > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 15 July 2011 17:46, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > I'm confused. > > Are you saying you have those 3 fish in a tank smaller than 5 gallons or > > are you saying you changed less than 5 gallons out of the tank? > > How big is this tank? > > > > Amber > > > > On 7/15/2011 7:05 AM, c wrote: > > > > > > Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a > > > small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) with > > > 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at > > > the label till now). > > > Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. > > > Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. > > > Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of > > > aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water > > > conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > > > > > > My questions: > > > Is the molting caused by the water? > > > Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the > > > levels and wait? > > > The molting doesn't look like this > > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this > > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think > > > it is a disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" > on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51725	From: Ray	Date: 7/15/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

Hi "C", Oh, that's a breakfast drink <g>. Sounds like you have a 5 gallon tank filled with 4 1/2 gallons of new water (3.5 gallons distilled and 1 gallon drinking water) and a half gallon of the old water. First of all, your tank is too small for these 3 fish, or it soon will be as Goldfish grow fast and grow large. If they're not big now, you need to give them adequate room to grow. What do you mean by "molting"? I've never heard that expression used with fish. For birds, it's losing their feathers. Do you mean that the fish are losing their scales? Can you describe it better? Are they sloughing off their slime coat? Is their slime coat turning white if they are in the process of shedding it? What gave you the idea to use distilled water? Was the water they were in extremely soft, and you wanted to match it? Distilled water has no minerals (or very little minerals), which would be an osmotic shock to the fishes if you previously had them in much harder water. Where did you get their previous water from? If you got their previous water from the tap, take a pH and general hardness (GH) test of your tap water and give us the results. Also take a temporary hardness (KH) test of your tap water and give us that result. At this same time, take these tests of your aquarium's water too. You may need to add salt or possibly just do a partial water change with your tap water (with water conditioner added), if this is what you had them in before changing their water, but don't do anything yet before answering the above questions and giving us test results. While you're at it, even though new water should not contain ammonia or nitrite, give us the results for these tests too. Depending on the process used for making this distilled water, it may have copper in it, which would be adverse to the fishes' well being. Looks like you were surprised to see that one of the gallons was "drinking water." What kind of drinking water was it? If it was spring water, it should be at least moderately hard, which would help temper the soft-water effects of the distilled water (although only dillute any possible copper by a bit more than 25%). For bottled drinking water or distilled water, you shouldn't need a water conditioner as no chlorine or chloramines are added. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "c" <cld71@...> wrote: > > Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) with 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at the label till now). > Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. > Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. > Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > > My questions: > Is the molting caused by the water? > Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the levels and wait? > The molting doesn't look like this http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think it is a disease. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51726	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > John*<o)))<* >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51727	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Hi friend Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. Cheers Himanshu Via BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > John*<o)))<* > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51728	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

C, are you still there? >Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a >small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) >with 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't >look at the label till now). >Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. >Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. >Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp >of aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water >conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > >My questions: >Is the molting caused by the water? >Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the >levels and wait? >The molting doesn't look like this >http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this >http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think >it is a disease. -- Join the American Killifish Association at AKA.org

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51729	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

One of my angelfish pairs is still battling snails who eat the eggs quickly. Rams horn snails are worse than mts, but both will eat the eggs. My successful pair of angels learned to pick the snails off the glass when they headed for the eggs. I used to do it for them, they watched what I did, (sometimes attacked me for getting too close to the eggs) and eventually learned how to do it for themselves. The other pair remains clueless no matter how often I have tried to teach them in the same way. It was impossible for me to pick the snails out constantly. Snails can move pretty fast, especially when there are enough of them and food is near. I've never had experience with corys bothering angelfish eggs... but it is possible. What you describe actually sounds more like something upset/stressed your adult fish, causing them to eat the eggs. Every pair is different, some respond to stress differently, some respond to predators differently. The best advice I could offer you, if you really want these angels to have a good chance at spawning, is to move them to a tank of their own without snails or other fish. If you really just want the angel fry, maybe its time to consider setting up a tank for the eggs and moving the newly laid eggs to their own tank and raising them yourself? The other option, which is what I did, was to just wait it out and give the parent fish time to learn. If they are new to spawning it will take them time to learn to be parents. I have heard of very few angelfish pairs who get it right the first or 2nd time out. My successful pair tried for months (spawning about every 2 wks) before they got it right. Wishing you luck... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51730	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

That tank is crawling with snails, the MTS are all over the walls all day long, even, so I think that may be my problem. I will move the angels to their new 30 gallon tank without snails or cories and see how they do in that. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > One of my angelfish pairs is still battling snails who eat the eggs quickly. Rams horn snails are worse than mts, but both will eat the eggs. My successful pair of angels learned to pick the snails off the glass when they headed for the eggs. I used to do it for them, they watched what I did, (sometimes attacked me for getting too close to the eggs) and eventually learned how to do it for themselves. The other pair remains clueless no matter how often I have tried to teach them in the same way. It was impossible for me to pick the snails out constantly. Snails can move pretty fast, especially when there are enough of them and food is near. > > I've never had experience with corys bothering angelfish eggs... but it is possible. What you describe actually sounds more like something upset/stressed your adult fish, causing them to eat the eggs. Every pair is different, some respond to stress differently, some respond to predators differently. The best advice I could offer you, if you really want these angels to have a good chance at spawning, is to move them to a tank of their own without snails or other fish. If you really just want the angel fry, maybe its time to consider setting up a tank for the eggs and moving the newly laid eggs to their own tank and raising them yourself? The other option, which is what I did, was to just wait it out and give the parent fish time to learn. If they are new to spawning it will take them time to learn to be parents. I have heard of very few angelfish pairs who get it right the first or 2nd time out. My successful pair tried for months (spawning about every 2 wks) before they got it right. > > Wishing you luck... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51731	From: Mike Gesy	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: hi im new at this but......

http://bluewatersaquaticimportsplus.myshopify.com/ I got great live plants and fish from that website and the guys who run the site are pretty cool and seem to know a lot about fish and other stuff, i dont know i think its worth checking out. do you guys know of a good Angel fish breeder?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51732	From: haecklers	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......

I got mine from Joe Gargas on Aquabid. They were nice fish. He used to be a discus breeder, looks like now he's mostly in to rams and angelfish. He starts a lot of the bids for $1, sells them small (which I like, lets them adapt to my water), and has koi and blue platinums, maybe some other kinds by now. About 2/3 of mine were double veil, which he didn't mention. As they got bigger I decided I wanted to stick with the shorter finned ones because I didn't want to worry about fin rot or the height of the tank (my shorter finned ones are almost a year old and the fins are at least 8", top to bottom), so I sold off the double veil ones. Some people complained about him not being an aggressive culler, but I liked the quality of 11 of the 12 I got from him, not bad for the price I paid. If you get one or two that aren't breeding quality you can give them away or sell them to a pet shop. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Gesy" <fish_crazy3535@...> wrote: > > http://bluewatersaquaticimportsplus.myshopify.com/ I got great live plants and fish from that website and the guys who run the site are pretty cool and seem to know a lot about fish and other stuff, i dont know i think its worth checking out. do you guys know of a good Angel fish breeder? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51733	From: Bill	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......

Mike... the site you referenced has prices that are 3 times too high for what they are offering. GBR's at $14.00 each?.. They have to be kidding. I attended a Potomac Valley Aquatic something Auction a few months ago and there picked up 5 great specimens at $18.00... With them, I've had 3 false spawns and awaiting them to "get it down pat"... Normal situation for first timers. Angel breeders? My preference is to avoid the commercial sites (AB etc.) and locate home breeder's that know their "stuff".. For angels I'd check out two ladies, one of which just moved from my community and relocated from Richmond va to Ft. myers Fla.. She's the admin of a site formed by the breeder I referenced earlier. The breeder and founder of the following site is named "Jill" and her s/n is Fern (don't ask me!.. I've no clue).. her fellow admin is also a great breeder named "Ursula".. s/n FishVixen (again don't ask me why).. the site? www.fishaddicts@.... Hit up either one of them via the forum and they will either have what ya are looking for or will point you in the right direction. Both are great people. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Mike Gesy <fish_crazy3535@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 3:59:23 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] hi im new at this but...... http://bluewatersaquaticimportsplus.myshopify.com/ I got great live plants and fish from that website and the guys who run the site are pretty cool and seem to know a lot about fish and other stuff, i dont know i think its worth checking out. do you guys know of a good Angel fish breeder? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51734	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/16/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......

The Canada effect maybe? _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Saturday, July 16, 2011 5:09 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] hi im new at this but...... Mike... the site you referenced has prices that are 3 times too high for what they are offering. GBR's at $14.00 each?.. They have to be kidding. I attended a Potomac Valley Aquatic something Auction a few months ago and there picked up 5 great specimens at $18.00... With them, I've had 3 false spawns and awaiting them to "get it down pat"... Normal situation for first timers. Angel breeders? My preference is to avoid the commercial sites (AB etc.) and locate home breeder's that know their "stuff".. For angels I'd check out two ladies, one of which just moved from my community and relocated from Richmond va to Ft. myers Fla.. She's the admin of a site formed by the breeder I referenced earlier. The breeder and founder of the following site is named "Jill" and her s/n is Fern (don't ask me!.. I've no clue).. her fellow admin is also a great breeder named "Ursula".. s/n FishVixen (again don't ask me why).. the site? www.fishaddicts@... <mailto:www.fishaddicts%40forumotion.com> . Hit up either one of them via the forum and they will either have what ya are looking for or will point you in the right direction. Both are great people. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Mike Gesy <fish_crazy3535@... <mailto:fish_crazy3535%40yahoo.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 3:59:23 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] hi im new at this but...... http://bluewatersaquaticimportsplus.myshopify.com/ I got great live plants and fish from that website and the guys who run the site are pretty cool and seem to know a lot about fish and other stuff, i dont know i think its worth checking out. do you guys know of a good Angel fish breeder? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51735	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Sorry for this delayed response... I tried posting this days ago but for some reason it got lost and today came back to me as undeliverable mail. Not sure what bug has crawled up Yahoo's butt again, but it seems to have moved on now. Here is the message I attempted to post. Hopefully it works this time. I agree with everything Ray has advised thus far but wish to add that cockatoo pellets are not a healthy food choice for oscars (or any other fish) due to the contents. This should be avoided. Cichlid pellets contain the proper ingredients to be nutritionally balanced for cichlids, bird pellets are nutritionally balanced for what a bird needs. Those are two very different things, and they digest their food much differently. Just because a fish likes a food you offer that doesn't make it good for them. Children like(and would live on) candy/junk food, but that doesn't make it healthy for them. Same sort of thing. My oscars always loved small crayfish with the claws removed, which is easily done. The advantage to the crayfish is that they live in the tank until they become food, so they clean up a lot of the waste/left over food the oscars miss and don't pollute the water as much as dead/prepared foods. Other foods my oscars loved included snails (mystery snails) (they sucked the snails out of the shells) and fresh frozen shrimp from the grocery store. These were all offered along with pellet foods, alternately, to round out their diet. Frozen formula 1 & 2 cubes were also a favorite of theirs, and between those 2 foods there is plenty of protein and vegetable matter without the fat and additives that can cause problems. Be sure frozen foods are completely thawed and room temp to the touch by soaking in tank water for a while before you feed it to the fish. If they consume cold or partially frozen foods it can cause shock to their systems, and that can be deadly. One note about the chicken and the silver sides that Ray mentioned... these are very oily/greasy foods which will leave an oily residue in the tank water. This will need to be skimmed from the water's surface to allow proper oxygen exchange. Chicken should be cooked and cooled before offering, and should be used only as a "treat" food. Beef heart is another one that can be offered in the same way but deals with the oil/grease issue. Extra water changes are a must when giving these foods, to keep water quality in a safe range. Oscars are and always have been one of my favorites out of the hundreds of species of fish I have kept/cared for, due to their unique personality traits. They can be stubborn, they can have tantrums, and yes, they even pout when they don't get what they want. Oscars are so social that many people mistake their desire for attention with their need for food and end up over feeding them. My oscars always liked to be pet and played with, literally. We had many games both with me interacting with them in the water and outside the tank. They're smart but can be very strong willed. Give them time and spend lots of time with them. They are much like 2 yr old children in that matter, and yes, much like your cockatoo. A cockatoo is a lot like having a 2 yr old that never grows up. You mentioned that your oscars are 5 yrs old, can you tell us how big they are? Age means one thing, size can mean another. At 5 yrs old they should be full grown, but living 5 yrs in a 55 gallon tank could have stunted growth, which can mean other problems that nobody can see visibly/outwardly. Stunting can cause digestive problems, meaning some foods may not be tolerated as easily by them like they would other healthy oscars. They do have the ability to continue growing in a larger, proper environment, so this may be something else you will need to be prepared for and can change/alter their behavior and feeding habits as their size changes. I've been taking in orphan oscars for many yrs, most of them abused/neglected and with various health issues. They have some amazing healing abilities when moved from a poor environment to one that is loving and healthy. The only one I've had that I actually spent money on and bought for myself is an albino, she died about 3 yrs ago from old age. She was 12 1/2 yrs old. I hope you get to enjoy yours as much as I have enjoyed all of mine over the yrs. Bless you for taking them in. I wish there were better options to adopt out the orphans instead of people buying babies from pet stores. Its encouraging to see situations like yours, where they get a good forever home. I wish you all the best!!! Congrats on your new pets! I hope everything works out well for you and them too. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Oscars can chew to a ceretain extent or they wouldn't be able to eat pellets. While they have lots of very small almost sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws, these are used primarily for grabbing the food (not for chewing). They have a set (top and bottom) of pharyngal plates further back in the mouth between the back of the tongue and the top of the throat that they use for breaking up food before swallowing it. These plates are not designed for breaking seeds or nuts open though. > > Oscars are omnivores with carnivorous tendencies, and while they most often prefer 'meaty' foods, they should get a certain amount of vegetable matter if they'll take it. Fortunately, a good Cichlid pellet food (such as Hikari) is well balance. You could even try them on spirulina pellets if they'll take them, at the same time as you're feeding them some animal matter. Don't give them a meal of spirulina only, as they are not herbivores and not having a large digestive system, may have difficulties digesting such foods given by themselves. > > In general, but with a few exceptions, most fish cannot digest terrestrial vertebrate matter as easily as they can digest aquatic animal matter, vertebrate or invertebrate. Crab, clam, mollusk shrimp, etc. are fine as offered in smaller pieces. Small pieces of chicken are okay in moderation, but when it comes to red meats with fat, they simply cannot digest the fatty material so stay away from steak. > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > fred eats a concentrated pellet food. vitamins, etc. the pellets disolve. but they didn't have a chance. slurp. i only hand fed a couple to them. but, thanks for letting me know they can't chew. so it will be soft. i want to get them some aquirm plant life. can they have pieces of meat. fred loves chicken. no skin or bones. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > From: sevenspringss@ > > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:30:41 +0000 > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Crab meat's fine, as part of the variety of their diet. Be sure to clean up any leftovers though, as they'll pollute the water. What do you feed the parrot, that you're thinking of feeding the Oscars with? If it's seeds and nuts, these should not be given to Oscars as they have no way of "chewing" them into digestible pieces or opening the seed shells. Seeds could also get caught in their digestive system. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > From: wendieo@ > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I > > > > > > > > > > also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food > > > > > > > > > > container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew > > > > > > > > > > as soon as you touched it. > > > > > > > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51736	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Let us know how that changes things, but don't be terribly disappointed if you find out that is only one of a number of problems the parent fish are having. Some of the problem could be simple immaturity, they haven't learned/figured it out yet. I think Ray will correct me if I'm wrong, but from the many angelfish breeders I have known over the years, they have all told me that seldom do parent fish get it right the first time or 2. My fingers are crossed for you! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > That tank is crawling with snails, the MTS are all over the walls all day long, even, so I think that may be my problem. I will move the angels to their new 30 gallon tank without snails or cories and see how they do in that. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > One of my angelfish pairs is still battling snails who eat the eggs quickly. Rams horn snails are worse than mts, but both will eat the eggs. My successful pair of angels learned to pick the snails off the glass when they headed for the eggs. I used to do it for them, they watched what I did, (sometimes attacked me for getting too close to the eggs) and eventually learned how to do it for themselves. The other pair remains clueless no matter how often I have tried to teach them in the same way. It was impossible for me to pick the snails out constantly. Snails can move pretty fast, especially when there are enough of them and food is near. > > > > I've never had experience with corys bothering angelfish eggs... but it is possible. What you describe actually sounds more like something upset/stressed your adult fish, causing them to eat the eggs. Every pair is different, some respond to stress differently, some respond to predators differently. The best advice I could offer you, if you really want these angels to have a good chance at spawning, is to move them to a tank of their own without snails or other fish. If you really just want the angel fry, maybe its time to consider setting up a tank for the eggs and moving the newly laid eggs to their own tank and raising them yourself? The other option, which is what I did, was to just wait it out and give the parent fish time to learn. If they are new to spawning it will take them time to learn to be parents. I have heard of very few angelfish pairs who get it right the first or 2nd time out. My successful pair tried for months (spawning about every 2 wks) before they got it right. > > > > Wishing you luck... > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51737	From: haecklers	Date: 7/17/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

You're kindly leaving out the problems the breeder (me) is causing and my learning curve! LOL! Thank you for the encouragement! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Let us know how that changes things, but don't be terribly disappointed if you find out that is only one of a number of problems the parent fish are having. Some of the problem could be simple immaturity, they haven't learned/figured it out yet. I think Ray will correct me if I'm wrong, but from the many angelfish breeders I have known over the years, they have all told me that seldom do parent fish get it right the first time or 2. > > My fingers are crossed for you! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > That tank is crawling with snails, the MTS are all over the walls all day long, even, so I think that may be my problem. I will move the angels to their new 30 gallon tank without snails or cories and see how they do in that. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > One of my angelfish pairs is still battling snails who eat the eggs quickly. Rams horn snails are worse than mts, but both will eat the eggs. My successful pair of angels learned to pick the snails off the glass when they headed for the eggs. I used to do it for them, they watched what I did, (sometimes attacked me for getting too close to the eggs) and eventually learned how to do it for themselves. The other pair remains clueless no matter how often I have tried to teach them in the same way. It was impossible for me to pick the snails out constantly. Snails can move pretty fast, especially when there are enough of them and food is near. > > > > > > I've never had experience with corys bothering angelfish eggs... but it is possible. What you describe actually sounds more like something upset/stressed your adult fish, causing them to eat the eggs. Every pair is different, some respond to stress differently, some respond to predators differently. The best advice I could offer you, if you really want these angels to have a good chance at spawning, is to move them to a tank of their own without snails or other fish. If you really just want the angel fry, maybe its time to consider setting up a tank for the eggs and moving the newly laid eggs to their own tank and raising them yourself? The other option, which is what I did, was to just wait it out and give the parent fish time to learn. If they are new to spawning it will take them time to learn to be parents. I have heard of very few angelfish pairs who get it right the first or 2nd time out. My successful pair tried for months (spawning about every 2 wks) before they got it right. > > > > > > Wishing you luck... > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51738	From: haecklers	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri

Hi! Welcome to the forum! It sounds like you're in to your elbows in the aquarium habit now! :) I've found homes for fish on craigslist before, and also local fish stores. If you google aquarium store and the name of your town, you should be able to look on Google Maps to see the locations of the nearest ones. The non-chain stores are usually happy to take unwanted fish off your hands, as a "donation". Sometimes they'll give you store credit or even money, depending on how desirable the fish are. Your paradise fish may enjoy sharing their tank with some pregnant female fish - some predatory fish will eat the fry before you even see they're there (like angelfish), others let a few survive to grow up, because they just get too full to chase the faster ones. A female betta added to the community tank, for instance, will graze on babies but leave some to grow up. My gouramis are similar, tho I've never had a paradise one (I'd really like one, tho - I'm so jealous!) Regards, Renate --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ridgerunrbunny" <ridgerunrbunny@...> wrote: > > My first post. I recently took the aquarium habit up again. I have 3 indoor tanks going, (one for cardinal tetras, one for two paradise fish, and a community tank of platys, guppies, L144's, an elephant nose fish and some zebra nerites. ) I thought I would be smart and "won" a sale on Aqua Bid for some female platys and yesterday someone in the group gave birth to near 30 fry, oh my. Needles to say there is now a couple make do out door pond type containers with fry in one and pregnant platys in the other. oh, oh, what ever shall I do with all those fry? > Bunny >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51739	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri

Welcome to the group Bunny. This is our quiet time of year (with less posts going through), so if you don't get answered right away when you have questions don't get upset, a lot of people are busy this time of year (myself included). I have one paradise gourami myself (in my semi aggressive 125 gallon community tank with live bearers for free snacks, LOL). He's an aggressive little guy, keeps my female bettas out of his territory. I've lost 2 of my 4 female bettas, so I'm wondering if he's being more aggressive than just chasing. Though from the looks of his nibbled tail he's getting chased a bit himself, or perhaps the 4 female bettas decided they no longer like each other (siblings raised together) and got a bit more aggressive than they used to be. If you're having problems with all the fry I definitely recommend moving some of your live-bearers over to the tetras/paradise fish tanks, they will help keep the population under control, or you could add a female betta/gourami to your community tank. Amber On 7/15/2011 4:32 AM, haecklers wrote: > > Hi! Welcome to the forum! It sounds like you're in to your elbows in > the aquarium habit now! :) > > I've found homes for fish on craigslist before, and also local fish > stores. If you google aquarium store and the name of your town, you > should be able to look on Google Maps to see the locations of the > nearest ones. The non-chain stores are usually happy to take unwanted > fish off your hands, as a "donation". Sometimes they'll give you store > credit or even money, depending on how desirable the fish are. > > Your paradise fish may enjoy sharing their tank with some pregnant > female fish - some predatory fish will eat the fry before you even see > they're there (like angelfish), others let a few survive to grow up, > because they just get too full to chase the faster ones. A female > betta added to the community tank, for instance, will graze on babies > but leave some to grow up. My gouramis are similar, tho I've never had > a paradise one (I'd really like one, tho - I'm so jealous!) > > Regards, > > Renate > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "ridgerunrbunny" > <ridgerunrbunny@...> wrote: > > > > My first post. I recently took the aquarium habit up again. I have 3 > indoor tanks going, (one for cardinal tetras, one for two paradise > fish, and a community tank of platys, guppies, L144's, an elephant > nose fish and some zebra nerites. ) I thought I would be smart and > "won" a sale on Aqua Bid for some female platys and yesterday someone > in the group gave birth to near 30 fry, oh my. Needles to say there is > now a couple make do out door pond type containers with fry in one and > pregnant platys in the other. oh, oh, what ever shall I do with all > those fry? > > Bunny > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51740	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject:

You are tired of overweight? Don’t worry!. http://digitaulis.com/inbox.php?kaolid=65jx7

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51741	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.

My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated status for a short while. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51742	From: Bill	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.

Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent people. Bill McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated status for a short while. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51743	From: harry perry	Date: 7/18/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra conservative. I will be getting mail. Harry --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: From: Bill <williemcd@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 9:54 PM   Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent people. Bill McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated status for a short while. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51744	From: Karlene Turkington	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Full-frontal-flogging? That doesn't sound too conservative to me, though possibly disappointed that you aren't really peddling pills. ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:14 PM, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra conservative. I will be getting mail. > > Harry > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51745	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited national forum and formed ours back in april mid month. We've now reached over 60 souls that aren't as judgmental and down right decent folks. ALL are very serious hobbiest.. and bring a wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we are clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours not a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. Bill McDonald oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@..... Don't concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an agenda other than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. Bill-Still, McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 10:14:51 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra conservative. I will be getting mail. Harry --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: From: Bill <williemcd@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 9:54 PM Â Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent people. Bill McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated status for a short while. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51746	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Whenever I try your link I get a "Post Message" page. Do you think you're giving out the wrong link, or is that how the Yahoo Groups does things with competing groups? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited national forum > and formed ours back in april mid month. We've now reached over 60 souls that > aren't as judgmental and down right decent folks. ALL are very serious > hobbiest.. and bring a wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we are > clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours not > a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. Bill McDonald > oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@... > Don't concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an agenda other > than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. Bill-Still, McDonald > > > > ________________________________ > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 10:14:51 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill > > > Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra > conservative. I will be getting mail. > > Harry > > --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 9:54 PM > > Â > > Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit > > happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is > > a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully > > overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent > > people. Bill McDonald > > ________________________________ > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > > To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative > > <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; > > antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; > > anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; > > aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; > > aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; > > aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; > > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; > > ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; > > Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; > > badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; > > boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; > > casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry > > <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; > > CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; > > durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; > > felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; > > feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle > > <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog > > <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; > > GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; > > labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell > > <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; > > Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; > > lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; > > PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; > > pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making > > <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; > > slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; > > superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; > > the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; > > tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry > > <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. > > My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling > > sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. > > I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated > > status for a short while. > > Thanks > > Harry > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51747	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Greetings from Missouri

Thanks for the information. I wanted to keep the first births and euthanize the undesirables. I have some Hifins that may produce some nice offspring. I lost a lovely sunset hifin male. The little booger jumped out of the new tank while I went to get the cover for it. I didn't even notice until it was way too late. I will be keeping males and females in separate tanks until I want to breed anything. I put a file in the photo section, under Bunny's. You can see my Macropodus erythropterus paradise fish in there. I got them from a man in Japan. They probably are not as colorful as some others, but I am partial to blue and lavenders. I have watched these two change colors right before my eyes, going from what appeared to be a black to a pale blue. Interesting fish. I placed a couple larger female platys in with them and they both got very aggressive, so I removed the females. Hmmmmm. > Your paradise fish may enjoy sharing their tank with some pregnant female fish - some predatory fish will eat the fry before you even see they're there (like angelfish), others let a few survive to grow up, because they just get too full to chase the faster ones. A female betta added to the community tank, for instance, will graze on babies but leave some to grow up. My gouramis are similar, tho I've never had a paradise one (I'd really like one, tho - I'm so jealous!) > > Regards, > > Renate > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ridgerunrbunny" <ridgerunrbunny@> wrote: > > > > My first post. I recently took the aquarium habit up again. I have 3 indoor tanks going, (one for cardinal tetras, one for two paradise fish, and a community tank of platys, guppies, L144's, an elephant nose fish and some zebra nerites. ) I thought I would be smart and "won" a sale on Aqua Bid for some female platys and yesterday someone in the group gave birth to near 30 fry, oh my. Needles to say there is now a couple make do out door pond type containers with fry in one and pregnant platys in the other. oh, oh, what ever shall I do with all those fry? > > Bunny > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51748	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Harry, I reviewed the message I sent and it does appear that Yahoo Groups is interfering with the linkage. I can understand their actions in that I could be a spammer trying to drive traffic to a commercial site. They cannot tell if my provided link is genuine or bots. Other fish keeping forums have the same limitations.. they don't wanna help the hobbiest,but rather just keep them captive. I belong to like a dozen fish forums and contrib to all so I don't understand that mindset. But then again, I'm just a user and not an admin. But I'm sure you can figure out how to cut and paste and modify the following link: www aquaticfriendsunited at forumotion dot com. Bill McDonald p.s. Look forward to your visit. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 19, 2011 7:40:30 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill Whenever I try your link I get a "Post Message" page. Do you think you're giving out the wrong link, or is that how the Yahoo Groups does things with competing groups? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited national >forum > > and formed ours back in april mid month. We've now reached over 60 souls that > aren't as judgmental and down right decent folks. ALL are very serious > hobbiest.. and bring a wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we >are > > clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours not > a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. Bill McDonald > oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@... > Don't concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an agenda other > than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. Bill-Still, McDonald > > > > ________________________________ > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 10:14:51 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill > > > Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra > > conservative. I will be getting mail. > > Harry > > --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 9:54 PM > > Â > > Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit > > happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is > > > a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully > > overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent > > people. Bill McDonald > > ________________________________ > > From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > > To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative > > <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; > > antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; > > anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; > > aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; > > aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; > > aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; > > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; > > ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; > > Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; > > badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; > > boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; > > casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry > > <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; > > CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; > > durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; > > felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; > > feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; > > FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle > > <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog > > <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; > > GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; > > labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell > > <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; > > Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; > > lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; > > PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; > > pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making > > <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; > > slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; > > superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; > > the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; > > tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry > > <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. > > My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling > > > sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. > > I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated > > status for a short while. > > Thanks > > Harry > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51749	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

The link should read http://aquaticfriendsunited.forumotion.com/ Looks interesting. Tricia Why is "abbreviated" such a long word? On 19 July haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > Whenever I try your link I get a "Post Message" page. Do you think > you're giving out the wrong link, or is that how the Yahoo Groups > does things with competing groups? > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited > > national forum and formed ours back in april mid month. We've > > now reached over 60 souls that aren't as judgmental and down > > right decent folks. ALL are very serious hobbiest.. and bring a > > wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we are > > clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours > > not a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. > > Bill McDonald oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@... Don't > > concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an > > agenda other than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. > > Bill-Still, McDonald

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51750	From: Bill	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Tricia.. thanks for the correction!.. It's not too often that the http: is required nowadays... Hope to see ya visit!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Tricia Garner <tricia@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 19, 2011 8:13:19 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill The link should read http://aquaticfriendsunited.forumotion.com/ Looks interesting. Tricia Why is "abbreviated" such a long word? On 19 July haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > Whenever I try your link I get a "Post Message" page. Do you think > you're giving out the wrong link, or is that how the Yahoo Groups > does things with competing groups? > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited > > national forum and formed ours back in april mid month. We've > > now reached over 60 souls that aren't as judgmental and down > > right decent folks. ALL are very serious hobbiest.. and bring a > > wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we are > > clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours > > not a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. > > Bill McDonald oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@... Don't > > concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an > > agenda other than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. > > Bill-Still, McDonald [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51751	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

I didn't see anything that mentioned cockatoo pellets . . . only that Fred eats a 'concentrated/ pellet food . . . unless I missed something. I did see in a previous message, that Fred is being fed parrot food which, as I said, if it's seeds or nuts, this should not be given to Oscars -- I am only presuming the parrot food consists of seeds and/or nuts as that's all I've ever see available for parrots in the pet shops (I don't know if there's a parrot pellet food). Crayfish are best given to Oscar ASAP after they molt -- when their new shell is still very soft, although being as it can be a favorite food for these fish, they'll usually take them at any time -- especially when they realize their food has no claws to fight back. Cooking chicken before feeding it to Oscars would be a given -- an automatic thing to do. I would never consider feeding Oscars uncooked chicken; thought thought never even occurred to me. I would think that if any chicken were oily, it would be the dark meat, although again, I would only consider feeding these fish the least oily white meat -- and then, only in fairly small easily digestible pieces that they'd have no problem eating. I did state that chicken is okay in moderation -- meaning it should not be fed all the time. I'm sure they'd see it as a 'treat.' While I mentioned frozen silversides, I did so as adding fish to their diet, which has already been prepared and packaged for tropical fish consumption, and which doesn't involve using live 'feeder fish,' which can often bring in diseases -- my main intention for this recommendation. Do not buy live feeder fish as Oscar food. If one wants to feed Oscars live fish which the hobbyist has raised for this purpose, they should then be safe but I'll leave the ethics of it up to one's own view on the subject. While beef heart used to be used as a fish food many years ago, especially as being included in a mix of other foods, this is not easily digestible to fish and should be avoided -- the same as I recommended to stay away from steak, or any red meats that contain fat, which fish cannot digest -- and while beef heart may be leaner than steak it still contains fat that is not easily cut away from the red meat before feeding as it's 'marbled' within it. Too, while carnivorous fishes require a higher protein intake, beef heart is an exceptionally high protein source (too high to be a prudent fish food). Yes, they are like puppies, and develop 'personalities.' Over the years I've had a number of them, at one time having 6 breeding pairs when the market was good for their juvies, but that was about 40 years ago. My latest ones finally died about 3 years ago after having them a good long time but I can't remember exactly when I first got them. All's I remember is that I "rescued" them from a hobbyist who was getting tired of them at only 6" in length and still quite young. Dee, let us know if you ever have any more questions about Fred. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Sorry for this delayed response... I tried posting this days ago but for some reason it got lost and today came back to me as undeliverable mail. Not sure what bug has crawled up Yahoo's butt again, but it seems to have moved on now. Here is the message I attempted to post. Hopefully it works this time. > > I agree with everything Ray has advised thus far but wish to add that cockatoo pellets are not a healthy food choice for oscars (or any other fish) due to the contents. This should be avoided. Cichlid pellets contain the proper ingredients to be nutritionally balanced for cichlids, bird pellets are nutritionally balanced for what a bird needs. Those are two very different things, and they digest their food much differently. Just because a fish likes a food you offer that doesn't make it good for them. Children like(and would live on) candy/junk food, but that doesn't make it healthy for them. Same sort of thing. > My oscars always loved small crayfish with the claws removed, which is easily done. The advantage to the crayfish is that they live in the tank until they become food, so they clean up a lot of the waste/left over food the oscars miss and don't pollute the water as much as dead/prepared foods. Other foods my oscars loved included snails (mystery snails) (they sucked the snails out of the shells) and fresh frozen shrimp from the grocery store. These were all offered along with pellet foods, alternately, to round out their diet. Frozen formula 1 & 2 cubes were also a favorite of theirs, and between those 2 foods there is plenty of protein and vegetable matter without the fat and additives that can cause problems. Be sure frozen foods are completely thawed and room temp to the touch by soaking in tank water for a while before you feed it to the fish. If they consume cold or partially frozen foods it can cause shock to their systems, and that can be deadly. > > One note about the chicken and the silver sides that Ray mentioned... these are very oily/greasy foods which will leave an oily residue in the tank water. This will need to be skimmed from the water's surface to allow proper oxygen exchange. Chicken should be cooked and cooled before offering, and should be used only as a "treat" food. Beef heart is another one that can be offered in the same way but deals with the oil/grease issue. Extra water changes are a must when giving these foods, to keep water quality in a safe range. > > Oscars are and always have been one of my favorites out of the hundreds of species of fish I have kept/cared for, due to their unique personality traits. They can be stubborn, they can have tantrums, and yes, they even pout when they don't get what they want. Oscars are so social that many people mistake their desire for attention with their need for food and end up over feeding them. My oscars always liked to be pet and played with, literally. We had many games both with me interacting with them in the water and outside the tank. They're smart but can be very strong willed. Give them time and spend lots of time with them. They are much like 2 yr old children in that matter, and yes, much like your cockatoo. A cockatoo is a lot like having a 2 yr old that never grows up. > > You mentioned that your oscars are 5 yrs old, can you tell us how big they are? Age means one thing, size can mean another. At 5 yrs old they should be full grown, but living 5 yrs in a 55 gallon tank could have stunted growth, which can mean other problems that nobody can see visibly/outwardly. Stunting can cause digestive problems, meaning some foods may not be tolerated as easily by them like they would other healthy oscars. They do have the ability to continue growing in a larger, proper environment, so this may be something else you will need to be prepared for and can change/alter their behavior and feeding habits as their size changes. > > I've been taking in orphan oscars for many yrs, most of them abused/neglected and with various health issues. They have some amazing healing abilities when moved from a poor environment to one that is loving and healthy. The only one I've had that I actually spent money on and bought for myself is an albino, she died about 3 yrs ago from old age. She was 12 1/2 yrs old. I hope you get to enjoy yours as much as I have enjoyed all of mine over the yrs. Bless you for taking them in. I wish there were better options to adopt out the orphans instead of people buying babies from pet stores. Its encouraging to see situations like yours, where they get a good forever home. I wish you all the best!!! > > Congrats on your new pets! I hope everything works out well for you and them too. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Oscars can chew to a certain extent or they wouldn't be able to eat pellets. While they have lots of very small almost sandpaper-like teeth lining their jaws, these are used primarily for grabbing the food (not for chewing). They have a set (top and bottom) of pharyngal plates further back in the mouth between the back of the tongue and the top of the throat that they use for breaking up food before swallowing it. These plates are not designed for breaking seeds or nuts open though. > > > > Oscars are omnivores with carnivorous tendencies, and while they most often prefer 'meaty' foods, they should get a certain amount of vegetable matter if they'll take it. Fortunately, a good Cichlid pellet food (such as Hikari) is well balance. You could even try them on spirulina pellets if they'll take them, at the same time as you're feeding them some animal matter. Don't give them a meal of spirulina only, as they are not herbivores and not having a large digestive system, may have difficulties digesting such foods given by themselves. > > > > In general, but with a few exceptions, most fish cannot digest terrestrial vertebrate matter as easily as they can digest aquatic animal matter, vertebrate or invertebrate. Crab, clam, mollusk shrimp, etc. are fine as offered in smaller pieces. Small pieces of chicken are okay in moderation, but when it comes to red meats with fat, they simply cannot digest the fatty material so stay away from steak. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > fred eats a concentrated pellet food. vitamins, etc. the pellets disolve. but they didn't have a chance. slurp. i only hand fed a couple to them. but, thanks for letting me know they can't chew. so it will be soft. i want to get them some aquirm plant life. can they have pieces of meat. fred loves chicken. no skin or bones. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > From: sevenspringss@ > > > Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 06:30:41 +0000 > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Crab meat's fine, as part of the variety of their diet. Be sure to clean up any leftovers though, as they'll pollute the water. What do you feed the parrot, that you're thinking of feeding the Oscars with? If it's seeds and nuts, these should not be given to Oscars as they have no way of "chewing" them into digestible pieces or opening the seed shells. Seeds could also get caught in their digestive system. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, i found something they like. they are going to eat better than i am. they love crab and my parrot's food. they came up to grab the crab. i am gonna try a light tap to call them. i am gonna have to get a second job. dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > From: wendieo@ > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 13:01:16 -0400 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I used to have one that I trained to jump and take food from my hands. I > > > > > > > > > > > > > > also was able to play a game with him wherein he would have to ID his food > > > > > > > > > > > > > > container and then I would feed him. You couldn't fool him either. He knew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > as soon as you touched it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wendie > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51752	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Precisely! Very rarely do breeding pairs of Angelfish get it right the first few times. If breeding in a tank crawling with snails, this only serves to complicate things further. Best of luck with this pair when you move them to their own tank. While they still may not be successful after the move, at least you'll be removing adverse influences and can address any other issues with comparative simplicity Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Let us know how that changes things, but don't be terribly disappointed if you find out that is only one of a number of problems the parent fish are having. Some of the problem could be simple immaturity, they haven't learned/figured it out yet. I think Ray will correct me if I'm wrong, but from the many angelfish breeders I have known over the years, they have all told me that seldom do parent fish get it right the first time or 2. > > My fingers are crossed for you! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > That tank is crawling with snails, the MTS are all over the walls all day long, even, so I think that may be my problem. I will move the angels to their new 30 gallon tank without snails or cories and see how they do in that. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > One of my angelfish pairs is still battling snails who eat the eggs quickly. Rams horn snails are worse than mts, but both will eat the eggs. My successful pair of angels learned to pick the snails off the glass when they headed for the eggs. I used to do it for them, they watched what I did, (sometimes attacked me for getting too close to the eggs) and eventually learned how to do it for themselves. The other pair remains clueless no matter how often I have tried to teach them in the same way. It was impossible for me to pick the snails out constantly. Snails can move pretty fast, especially when there are enough of them and food is near. > > > > > > I've never had experience with corys bothering angelfish eggs... but it is possible. What you describe actually sounds more like something upset/stressed your adult fish, causing them to eat the eggs. Every pair is different, some respond to stress differently, some respond to predators differently. The best advice I could offer you, if you really want these angels to have a good chance at spawning, is to move them to a tank of their own without snails or other fish. If you really just want the angel fry, maybe its time to consider setting up a tank for the eggs and moving the newly laid eggs to their own tank and raising them yourself? The other option, which is what I did, was to just wait it out and give the parent fish time to learn. If they are new to spawning it will take them time to learn to be parents. I have heard of very few angelfish pairs who get it right the first or 2nd time out. My successful pair tried for months (spawning about every 2 wks) before they got it right. > > > > > > Wishing you luck... > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51753	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Thanks for the advice! There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > Hi friend > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > Cheers > Himanshu > Via BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51754	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Goldfish molting

Hi Amber, I agree with you 100% & we all know that Goldfish need lots of time, space, money, effort & dedication from us to thrive but in my experience it is extremely difficult to convince anyone buying one for the first time that they will need to spend at least £100/$150 on equipment to give the fish a good quality of life-especially as these fish are cheap & plentiful & then you have all the misleading & useless info from the store or many internet sites. Apart from the gallonage quoted I think that site is an excellent overview & just about everything else on there is correct. Even a Comet will do far better in 10+ gallons with good filtration & proper care than he would in an unfiltered bowl & that could well mean the owner will upgrade once they have learned a bit more info & got to know their fish. I'm just trying to help the newcomers walk before they try to run[?] John*<o)))< * On 15 July 2011 22:25, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > I don't agree with how many gallons that site says to have per goldfish. > It really should be at least 30 gallons per fancy goldfish and much > larger for commons and comets. > > Amber > > On 7/15/2011 1:02 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Hi C, > > > > I'm a little confused about your tank size as well-if your total > gallonage > > is only 5 then you are heading for disaster no matter how well you try to > > keep on top of things. By molting do you mean your fish is loosing his > > scales? If possible can you post some pictures? meantime have a look > > through > > the info on this link: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html > > it's > > an excellent overview of Goldfish care in general > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 15 July 2011 17:46, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > I'm confused. > > > Are you saying you have those 3 fish in a tank smaller than 5 gallons > or > > > are you saying you changed less than 5 gallons out of the tank? > > > How big is this tank? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 7/15/2011 7:05 AM, c wrote: > > > > > > > > Yesterday, I changed the water in the fishes(big comet goldfish, a > > > > small white comet goldfish, and a Bottom feeder) aquarium(~5 Gal) > with > > > > 3.5 Gal distilled water and 1 Gal drinking water(oops, didn't look at > > > > the label till now). > > > > Today, I woke up and the big comet goldfish is molting. > > > > Using the Internet found out that the molting is from stress. > > > > Thinking that it might be stress from the water so, I added ~1 tsp of > > > > aquarium salt(about 1/4 tsp per 10 min), and 10 drops of water > > > > conditioner, because of the 1 Gal of drinking water. > > > > > > > > My questions: > > > > Is the molting caused by the water? > > > > Should I try to change the water again, or should I just monitor the > > > > levels and wait? > > > > The molting doesn't look like this > > > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/fungus.php or this > > > > http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php, so I don't think > > > > it is a disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, > > Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" > > on the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51755	From: alijo79	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Someone in the lubbock area

Hi I am wanting find my leporinus a new home. He is a very aggresive fish, and I am wanting to change the aquarium up so he must go. Shoot me an e mail if interested, thanks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51756	From: Tricia Garner	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Hi Bill, no worries. It isn't so much the http: as the errant @ which had crept in and was invoking the "Post message" page, or in my case Apple Mail. Once I replaced it with a . it worked fine. I shall definitely be checking in again and hope to join. Regards, Tricia If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before. On 19 July Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > Tricia.. thanks for the correction!.. It's not too often that the > http: is required nowadays... Hope to see ya visit!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ > From: Tricia Garner <tricia@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, July 19, 2011 8:13:19 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: From Harry/harryfisherman My > apologies to all./Bill > > The link should read http://aquaticfriendsunited.forumotion.com/ > Looks interesting. > Tricia > Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51757	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. Wish you all the best. Cheers Himanshu Via BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! Thanks for the advice! There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > Hi friend > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > Cheers > Himanshu > Via BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51758	From: haecklers	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? Thanks for the help! Renate --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > Wish you all the best. > > Cheers > Himanshu > Via BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > Thanks for the advice! > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > Hi friend > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > Cheers > > Himanshu > > Via BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51759	From: harry perry	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Bill/From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all.

Looks interesting. I joined it. Thanks Harry --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: From: Bill <williemcd@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 11:25 PM   Harry.. check out our forum.. We left behind a very mean spirited national forum and formed ours back in april mid month. We've now reached over 60 souls that aren't as judgmental and down right decent folks. ALL are very serious hobbiest.. and bring a wealth of info but.. all acknowledge that at times we are clueless. I'm sure if ya visit, you'll find a home that harbours not a judgmental bone and will be looking forward to your input. Bill McDonald oh.. the site? aquaticfriendsunited@..... Don't concern yourself.. it's free, non commercial and without an agenda other than fish-keepers "Uniting".. hence the name. Bill-Still, McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 10:14:51 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra conservative. I will be getting mail. Harry --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: From: Bill <williemcd@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 9:54 PM Â Darn.. ya aren't selling sex nor drugs?.. TAKE ME OFF YOUR LIST!.. .LOL.. $hit happens my friend.. do not personalize it, as tough as that may be. The net is a jungle of containing some very mean spirited folks.. but thankfully overwhelmed by those that are of the extreme from them and are very decent people. Bill McDonald ________________________________ From: harry perry <harryfisherman@...> To: AlexanderOilPaintingClub@yahoogroups.com; Alternative <Alternative-Medicine-Forum@yahoogroups.com>; antiqueoutboard-engines@yahoogroups.com; Mark Denaro <anubiasdesign@...>; anubiasdesign@yahoogroups.com; AquaBiz@yahoogroups.com; aquaria-freshwater@yahoogroups.com; aquarium_club@yahoogroups.com; aquariumclub2@yahoogroups.com; aquariumdebates@yahoogroups.com; aquariumfishlovers@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife-owner@yahoogroups.com; AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; art@...; art@...; ArtAnonAlt@yahoogroups.com; ArtAnonymous@yahoogroups.com; Artists-Who-Survive@yahoogroups.com; backporch@...; badis-dario@yahoogroups.com; badisbadis@yahoogroups.com; boilerplant@...; Cafe_Terrace@yahoogroups.com; casseroles_and_crockpots@yahoogroups.com; Chris Perry <Chris.Perry@...>; Cia Price <cia_price@...>; CigarEnvy@yahoogroups.com; CROCKPOT-RECIPE@yahoogroups.com; durable.decals@...; FelineLeukemia@yahoogroups.com; felvsupport@yahoogroups.com; femalescanedhardest9@yahoogroups.com; feral_cats@yahoogroups.com; fish2nth@...; FreshwaterTropicalFishAquarium@yahoogroups.com; Michelle <froggies1997@...>; Full Frontal Flog <full-frontal-flogging@...>; garliclovers@yahoogroups.com; GaryJenkins@yahoogroups.com; haika@...; Kefir_making@yahoogroups.com; labyrinth-fish@yahoogroups.com; Linda <lafinwithu1953@...>; Crow Mitchell <laughingcrow@...>; LearnToPaintWithDarrellCrow@yahoogroups.com; Lindas_Busy_Kitchen_2@yahoogroups.com; linear_decorations@yahoogroups.com; lionrobefriends@yahoogroups.com; PaintOilSeascapesWithJoyceOrtner@yahoogroups.com; perry@...; pogona group <pogona@yahoogroups.com>; Real Kefir Making <Real_Kefir_Making@yahoogroups.com>; shihtzubooboojz@...; slushduck@...; Soul_Food_Soulfood_and_Southern_Cooking@yahoogroups.com; superchelle@...; Harry Perry <The_Drawing_Room@yahoogroups.com>; the_fish_tank@yahoogroups.com; The-BBQ-Porch@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; UniQuaria@yahoogroups.com; Harry Perry <watercolorfriendsofcia@yahoogroups.com>; WatercolorWorkshop@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, July 18, 2011 9:49:33 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all. My e-mail and my entire contact list has been hi-jacked. I'm not really selling sex drugs....honest. So I won't be taking any orders. I think I have stopped it but just in case I think I should be on moderated status for a short while. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51760	From: harry perry	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Karlene/From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill

Well........ I guess I have a kinky side. One of the spam messages was actually about dog care in German. Really strange. Harry --- On Mon, 7/18/11, Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> wrote: From: Karlene Turkington <tarkom@...> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] From Harry/harryfisherman My apologies to all./Bill To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, July 18, 2011, 11:14 PM   Full-frontal-flogging? That doesn't sound too conservative to me, though possibly disappointed that you aren't really peddling pills. ~Karlene Sent from my iPhone On Jul 18, 2011, at 9:14 PM, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > Thanks. You can see my contact list below. Some of these folks are really ultra conservative. I will be getting mail. > > Harry > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51761	From: Ray	Date: 7/19/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

R, I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > Thanks for the help! > > Renate > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > Cheers > > Himanshu > > Via BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Himanshu > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51762	From: Himanshu 0505565199	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Dear Renate Such a great and expert advice,now you will able to get 100% resultin your breeding. In my country we don't get Acriflavin so I use MB. Regards Himanshu Via BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 04:12:52 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! R, I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > Thanks for the help! > > Renate > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > Cheers > > Himanshu > > Via BlackBerry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Himanshu > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51763	From: himanshu	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Discus

Dear Friends I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. Regards Himanshu

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51764	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: ACA Convention

Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51765	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

finally got them to eat. they like frozen brine shrimp. i have a ten gallon tank of swordfish that will, hopefully, provide some exercise and nurishment. i tried some chicken, crab and some bass (cooked). they turned their lips up at all of it. but they are coming to the top when i talk to them. while i was talking to them, my dog (an afghan) was interested in what i was talking to. he put his nose just at water level. yep. a quick nip. he will never go close again. but i keep a screen over the tank. i bet i could touch them, but i won't frighten them. they are making a good progress in replacing me for their former owners. believe it or not, the former owners actually asked about them. it seems like oscars and placostomus (sp) start getting big and the owners look around to dump them. i've seen some big tanks (one wasssss 300 gallons) but, i don't think it would be wise to introduce any other oscars (or other permant) fish in with them. thanks for the food suggestions. what about live plants. i was going to get some live floating greenery so the baby swordfish can escape they parents. would the oscars enjoy that? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: sevenspringss@... Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:03:56 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee I didn't see anything that mentioned cockatoo pellets . . . only that Fred eats a 'concentrated/ pellet food . . . unless I missed something. I did see in a previous message, that Fred is being fed parrot food which, as I said, if it's seeds or nuts, this should not be given to Oscars -- I am only presuming the parrot food consists of seeds and/or nuts as that's all I've ever see available for parrots in the pet shops (I don't know if there's a parrot pellet food). Crayfish are best given to Oscar ASAP after they molt -- when their new shell is still very soft, although being as it can be a favorite food for these fish, they'll usually take them at any time -- especially when they realize their food has no claws to fight back. Cooking chicken before feeding it to Oscars would be a given -- an automatic thing to do. I would never consider feeding Oscars uncooked chicken; thought thought never even occurred to me. I would think that if any chicken were oily, it would be the dark meat, although again, I would only consider feeding these fish the least oily white meat -- and then, only in fairly small easily digestible pieces that they'd have no problem eating. I did state that chicken is okay in moderation -- meaning it should not be fed all the time. I'm sure they'd see it as a 'treat.' While I mentioned frozen silversides, I did so as adding fish to their diet, which has already been prepared and packaged for tropical fish consumption, and which doesn't involve using live 'feeder fish,' which can often bring in diseases -- my main intention for this recommendation. Do not buy live feeder fish as Oscar food. If one wants to feed Oscars live fish which the hobbyist has raised for this purpose, they should then be safe but I'll leave the ethics of it up to one's own view on the subject. While beef heart used to be used as a fish food many years ago, especially as being included in a mix of other foods, this is not easily digestible to fish and should be avoided -- the same as I recommended to stay away from steak, or any red meats that contain fat, which fish cannot digest -- and while beef heart may be leaner than steak it still contains fat that is not easily cut away from the red meat before feeding as it's 'marbled' within it. Too, while carnivorous fishes require a higher protein intake, beef heart is an exceptionally high protein source (too high to be a prudent fish food). Yes, they are like puppies, and develop 'personalities.' Over the years I've had a number of them, at one time having 6 breeding pairs when the market was good for their juvies, but that was about 40 years ago. My latest ones finally died about 3 years ago after having them a good long time but I can't remember exactly when I first got them. All's I remember is that I "rescued" them from a hobbyist who was getting tired of them at only 6" in length and still quite young. Dee, let us know if you ever have any more questions about Fred. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51766	From: kuradi8	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: hi im new at this but......

I've never bought from them but I drool at their discus regularly: http://somethingsphishy.com/ ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Gesy" <fish_crazy3535@...> wrote: > > http://bluewatersaquaticimportsplus.myshopify.com/ I got great live plants and fish from that website and the guys who run the site are pretty cool and seem to know a lot about fish and other stuff, i dont know i think its worth checking out. do you guys know of a good Angel fish breeder? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51767	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51768	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

How much decoration is in the tank? They need hiding places to feel safe and avoid excessive amounts of stress. If the tank is bare then they are going to feel threatened whenever anyone/anything approaches the tank. Bare bottom tank is one thing, but a totally bare tank would be another... Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "himanshu" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > Dear Friends > > I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> > > Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. > > There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. > > > Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. > > Regards > Himanshu >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51769	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/20/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51770	From: bill 1433	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

also,if the tank is bare,consider painting or placing dark colored paper on the bottom or underneath.  Y?  It kills the reflection inside the tank.  Blue or green works best.   Bill --- On Wed, 7/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Discus To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, July 20, 2011, 3:31 PM How much decoration is in the tank?  They need hiding places to feel safe and avoid excessive amounts of stress.  If the tank is bare then they are going to feel threatened whenever anyone/anything approaches the tank.  Bare bottom tank is one thing, but a totally bare tank would be another... Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "himanshu" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > Dear Friends > > I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> > > Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. > > There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. > > > Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. > > Regards > Himanshu > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51771	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

I spotted 3 baby cory catfish today where I put the eggs I pulled out of the tank - but some of the eggs are white (fungus?). Should I give it to the end of the day to remove the unhatched eggs or will they foul the water by then? I'm afraid of removing eggs that might still hatch! I have them in a 4-cup glass container for now (out of empty tanks ATM). They really look different than I expected - the cichlid eggs turn into eggs with wiggling tails then gradually start looking more like fish, these look like really long tadpoles (1/4 inch). I accidentally disturbed them and they swam around a bit - another surprise, since the other fry I've raised just couldn't really swim right after hatching. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > R, > > I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. > > For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. > > Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > > > Thanks for the help! > > > > Renate > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > > > Cheers > > > Himanshu > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Himanshu > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51772	From: Ray	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Noticed you posted this, this morning; it's about 1:30 PM now. If any more eggs were going to hatch, they would have done so by now -- and maybe more did hatch. It doesn't take the parents 3 or 4 hours to spawn, so it wouldn't take all of the eggs any longer to hatch than the time they spent spawning. If you want to give them another hour just to be sure, that's okay but it shouldn't be necessary. Remove the unhatched eggs around 2:30 -- 3:00PM. Too much more and you could affect the water quality of only that quart. When they're free-swimming and looking for food, give the frozen (thawed) baby brine shrimp -- sparingly == but you should move them to a tank by that time. A quart of water will foul fast with the least amount of overfeeding. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I spotted 3 baby cory catfish today where I put the eggs I pulled out of the tank - but some of the eggs are white (fungus?). Should I give it to the end of the day to remove the unhatched eggs or will they foul the water by then? I'm afraid of removing eggs that might still hatch! I have them in a 4-cup glass container for now (out of empty tanks ATM). > > They really look different than I expected - the cichlid eggs turn into eggs with wiggling tails then gradually start looking more like fish, these look like really long tadpoles (1/4 inch). I accidentally disturbed them and they swam around a bit - another surprise, since the other fry I've raised just couldn't really swim right after hatching. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > R, > > > > I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. > > > > For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. > > > > Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > > > > > Thanks for the help! > > > > > > Renate > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > Himanshu > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Himanshu > > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51773	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Good point, thanks! :) I've got live baby brine shrimp I'm hatching for some of my other fry so I can give them those, and some microworms too. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Noticed you posted this, this morning; it's about 1:30 PM now. If any more eggs were going to hatch, they would have done so by now -- and maybe more did hatch. It doesn't take the parents 3 or 4 hours to spawn, so it wouldn't take all of the eggs any longer to hatch than the time they spent spawning. If you want to give them another hour just to be sure, that's okay but it shouldn't be necessary. Remove the unhatched eggs around 2:30 -- 3:00PM. Too much more and you could affect the water quality of only that quart. When they're free-swimming and looking for food, give the frozen (thawed) baby brine shrimp -- sparingly == but you should move them to a tank by that time. A quart of water will foul fast with the least amount of overfeeding. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I spotted 3 baby cory catfish today where I put the eggs I pulled out of the tank - but some of the eggs are white (fungus?). Should I give it to the end of the day to remove the unhatched eggs or will they foul the water by then? I'm afraid of removing eggs that might still hatch! I have them in a 4-cup glass container for now (out of empty tanks ATM). > > > > They really look different than I expected - the cichlid eggs turn into eggs with wiggling tails then gradually start looking more like fish, these look like really long tadpoles (1/4 inch). I accidentally disturbed them and they swam around a bit - another surprise, since the other fry I've raised just couldn't really swim right after hatching. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > R, > > > > > > I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. > > > > > > For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. > > > > > > Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help! > > > > > > > > Renate > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > > > > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > Himanshu > > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > > > > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Himanshu > > > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51774	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Congrats on your progress. As mentioned previously, it tends to take a while for older oscars to settle into a new home. It sounds as if they're adjusting just fine. In regards to the plants, if you're wanting to know will the oscars eat the floating plants.... not likely. Any plants put into the substrate will get dug up and pulled out quickly. If they have plenty of shelter/decor in the tank then floating plants would only really serve one purpose... to help utilize the nutrient levels in the water (fish waste/food waste). Some oscars will shred any plant they have the option to do so, some oscars will just ignore plants that float. Its all about individual personality. There's no reason not to try, but be prepared to remove the plants if they start to shred them, since dead plant matter only adds to the waste in the tank. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > finally got them to eat. they like frozen brine shrimp. i have a ten gallon tank of swordfish that will, hopefully, provide some exercise and nurishment. i tried some chicken, crab and some bass (cooked). they turned their lips up at all of it. but they are coming to the top when i talk to them. while i was talking to them, my dog (an afghan) was interested in what i was talking to. he put his nose just at water level. yep. a quick nip. he will never go close again. but i keep a screen over the tank. i bet i could touch them, but i won't frighten them. they are making a good progress in replacing me for their former owners. believe it or not, the former owners actually asked about them. it seems like oscars and placostomus (sp) start getting big and the owners look around to dump them. i've seen some big tanks (one wasssss 300 gallons) but, i don't think it would be wise to introduce any other oscars (or other permant) fish in with them. thanks for the food suggestions. what about live plants. i was going to get some live floating greenery so the baby swordfish can escape they parents. would the oscars enjoy that? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: sevenspringss@... > Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 15:03:56 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I didn't see anything that mentioned cockatoo pellets . . . only that Fred eats a 'concentrated/ pellet food . . . unless I missed something. I did see in a previous message, that Fred is being fed parrot food which, as I said, if it's seeds or nuts, this should not be given to Oscars -- I am only presuming the parrot food consists of seeds and/or nuts as that's all I've ever see available for parrots in the pet shops (I don't know if there's a parrot pellet food). > > > > Crayfish are best given to Oscar ASAP after they molt -- when their new shell is still very soft, although being as it can be a favorite food for these fish, they'll usually take them at any time -- especially when they realize their food has no claws to fight back. > > > > Cooking chicken before feeding it to Oscars would be a given -- an automatic thing to do. I would never consider feeding Oscars uncooked chicken; thought thought never even occurred to me. I would think that if any chicken were oily, it would be the dark meat, although again, I would only consider feeding these fish the least oily white meat -- and then, only in fairly small easily digestible pieces that they'd have no problem eating. I did state that chicken is okay in moderation -- meaning it should not be fed all the time. I'm sure they'd see it as a 'treat.' > > > > While I mentioned frozen silversides, I did so as adding fish to their diet, which has already been prepared and packaged for tropical fish consumption, and which doesn't involve using live 'feeder fish,' which can often bring in diseases -- my main intention for this recommendation. Do not buy live feeder fish as Oscar food. If one wants to feed Oscars live fish which the hobbyist has raised for this purpose, they should then be safe but I'll leave the ethics of it up to one's own view on the subject. > > > > While beef heart used to be used as a fish food many years ago, especially as being included in a mix of other foods, this is not easily digestible to fish and should be avoided -- the same as I recommended to stay away from steak, or any red meats that contain fat, which fish cannot digest -- and while beef heart may be leaner than steak it still contains fat that is not easily cut away from the red meat before feeding as it's 'marbled' within it. Too, while carnivorous fishes require a higher protein intake, beef heart is an exceptionally high protein source (too high to be a prudent fish food). > > > > Yes, they are like puppies, and develop 'personalities.' Over the years I've had a number of them, at one time having 6 breeding pairs when the market was good for their juvies, but that was about 40 years ago. My latest ones finally died about 3 years ago after having them a good long time but I can't remember exactly when I first got them. All's I remember is that I "rescued" them from a hobbyist who was getting tired of them at only 6" in length and still quite young. Dee, let us know if you ever have any more questions about Fred. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51775	From: himanshu kudav	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

I will take care of this in my next water change schedule. Thanks On Thu Jul 21st, 2011 8:58 AM EDT bill 1433 wrote: >also,if the tank is bare,consider painting or placing dark colored >paper on the bottom or underneath.  Y?  It kills the reflection inside >the tank.  Blue or green works best. >  >Bill > >--- On Wed, 7/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > >From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> >Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Discus >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Date: Wednesday, July 20, 2011, 3:31 PM > > >How much decoration is in the tank?  They need hiding places to feel safe and avoid excessive amounts of stress.  If the tank is bare then they are going to feel threatened whenever anyone/anything approaches the tank.  Bare bottom tank is one thing, but a totally bare tank would be another... > >Hope this helps. > >Dawn > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "himanshu" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends >> >> I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> >> >> Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. >> >> There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. >> >> >> Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. >> >> Regards >> Himanshu >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51776	From: himanshu kudav	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

I just driftwood for the tank, before it was just plain. Hope this will solve the problem. Thanks for support. On Wed Jul 20th, 2011 3:31 PM EDT dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: >How much decoration is in the tank? They need hiding places to feel safe and avoid excessive amounts of stress. If the tank is bare then they are going to feel threatened whenever anyone/anything approaches the tank. Bare bottom tank is one thing, but a totally bare tank would be another... > >Hope this helps. > >Dawn > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "himanshu" <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: >> >> Dear Friends >> >> I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> >> >> Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. >> >> There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. >> >> >> Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. >> >> Regards >> Himanshu >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51777	From: Ray	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Glad to read that you have microworms available. Feed them mostly microworms; DO NOT feed these fry live brine shrimp as they'll get no benefit from it -- until after the shrimp die and fall to the bottom one by one. This is one instance where frozen BBS is better than live. Cory fry do not swim up into the water column but browse the bottom, so they won't be feeding on live BBS in the water column. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Good point, thanks! :) > > I've got live baby brine shrimp I'm hatching for some of my other fry so I can give them those, and some microworms too. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Noticed you posted this, this morning; it's about 1:30 PM now. If any more eggs were going to hatch, they would have done so by now -- and maybe more did hatch. It doesn't take the parents 3 or 4 hours to spawn, so it wouldn't take all of the eggs any longer to hatch than the time they spent spawning. If you want to give them another hour just to be sure, that's okay but it shouldn't be necessary. Remove the unhatched eggs around 2:30 -- 3:00PM. Too much more and you could affect the water quality of only that quart. When they're free-swimming and looking for food, give the frozen (thawed) baby brine shrimp -- sparingly == but you should move them to a tank by that time. A quart of water will foul fast with the least amount of overfeeding. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I spotted 3 baby cory catfish today where I put the eggs I pulled out of the tank - but some of the eggs are white (fungus?). Should I give it to the end of the day to remove the unhatched eggs or will they foul the water by then? I'm afraid of removing eggs that might still hatch! I have them in a 4-cup glass container for now (out of empty tanks ATM). > > > > > > They really look different than I expected - the cichlid eggs turn into eggs with wiggling tails then gradually start looking more like fish, these look like really long tadpoles (1/4 inch). I accidentally disturbed them and they swam around a bit - another surprise, since the other fry I've raised just couldn't really swim right after hatching. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > I saw your previous email late. Just as well that you didn't get the Methylene Blue. It's not the greatest funguscide that you could use to address Saprolegnia of the fish eggs. Acriflavin is a much better funguscide by far. Part of Methylene Blue's function is to darken the water, preventing light from reaching the eggs, but fertilized eggs are seldom affected by moderate light anyway. It (MB) is not that effective in killing off the actual fungus or preventing the spread of it through the spawn. > > > > > > > > For the next time, Kordon offers Acriflavin in solution, labeled as such. If you can't find this product as described, Aquarium Pharmaceuticals makes a product in a red & yellow plastic bottle called Liquid Fungus Cure; its primary (virtually 100% Acriflavin in solution) ingredient is Acriflavin. Studies 20 years ago found Acriflavin to be at least 10 x more effective in preventing the spread of Saprolegnia throughout a spawning of eggs as it acts in 100% of it directed at helping destroy the fungus rather than just eliminating the potentially-egg-weakening light from rendering the eggs subject to fungus. > > > > > > > > Often, in clean water, unfertilized eggs will still remain fungus-free after 2 1/2 days, but at 3 full days you should see either hatching or fungusing, and often both. Any stronger fry having hatched out at this point will remain viable despite any fungus now spreading over the dead eggs. My guess is that when you last checked, it wasn't a full 36 hours. Then too, both the hatching and the fungusing processes depend on temperature -- which should be near 80 o F. Any cooler and both processes are delayed. Unfungused but unfertilized eggs will turn opaque if fungus hasn't attacked them yet. Give this spawn just a little more time to determine the results (you don't always [read: usually don't] need a funguscide with them to get at least a smaller percent of a hatch). > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I never got around to getting any methylene blue. This is the end of day 3 and nothing has hatched - but the eggs aren't white or fuzzy or anything. Wouldn't they look different if they got fungus? Do they sometimes die but not look any different or am I just being impatient? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help! > > > > > > > > > > Renate > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > MB is best for avoiding fungus to eggs. You can mix the babies but do it only when they start moving easily and eating baby food, I use boilded egg yolk(it mess up the water so u must change water to keep it clean). You can feed them baby brine shrimp, infusoria or SERA special food for fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wish you all the best. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Himanshu > > > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:53:04 > > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the advice! > > > > > > > > > > > > There were about 20 cory catfish eggs in a clump of staghorn algae in a corner. I took the clump out and put it in a bowl with some water from the tank. I don't have any methylene blue, I'll have to see what I do have or maybe go pick some up. If they hatch I can put them in with my small betta fry to clean up the dropped food! :) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Himanshu 0505565199" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi friend > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Next time if they lay their eggs on any leaves or any hard object which you can easily remove, pls do it. Keep the leave or stone in separte tanks with same water from original tank.but fill the tank just 25% or enough to cover little more than the leave or stone, not full. Put 4/5 drops of methaline blue and Also start airation very slow. You should get 100% result.this way you don't need to worry if parents or other fishes in tank eat, or parents not looking after eggs or new born. In this case start feeding babies only when they start moving freely not before that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > Himanshu > > > > > > > Via BlackBerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: "haecklers" <haecklers@> > > > > > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 10:12:21 > > > > > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The eggs should have hatched today. Yesterday there seemed to be half as many as there should have been - and some of the MTS snails were crawling among them. I wondered if they were eating a few. This morning instead of wigglers there was nothing on the rock at all. Both angelfish were at the far end of the tank. As I looked around for the wigglers, thinking they had moved them, instead I saw eggs scattered everywhere - on plants, behind the slate, in moss. What???? Had the angelfish moved the eggs before they hatched? I watched the angels to see what was up. They were busy eating the eggs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh!!! The cories had spawned overnight! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what happened to the angelfish eggs. There seemed to be a breakdown in the pair, tho, as often when I looked in the male was far from the eggs, instead of them working together as a team. Would cory catfish eat angelfish eggs? I guess they could since they eat their own. I thought they were safe to have with the angelfish because I've seen it said they're good to have with the fry because they'll eat the food the fry miss. But maybe that's once the fry are good swimmers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyone else have cory catfish or MTS snails eat angelfish eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! They spawned again today. We'll see how it goes this time! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's a real shame-fingers crossed for better luck next time! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))<* > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51778	From: haecklers	Date: 7/21/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned!

Ray, You are so full of timely advice and useful information! Thank you once again! I think once the corys are free-swimming I'll put them with the two betta fry I separated out because they weren't finding the food - they're still smaller than the cory fry, and they can share meals of microworms and brine shrimp - the bettas should eat the brine shrimp in the water column and if they miss any the cory fry can have them to supplement the microworms. I find fish don't grow well on microworms only - after about a month their growth starts to falter. Maybe it's because I don't feed them baby cereal - organic oatmeal may be lacking nutrients. My one spawn of bettas developed calcium deficiency and started breaking their jaws so I had to move them outside to supplement on wild bugs and mosquito larvae. Most have now recovered, thankfully! I also have some decap. eggs that I may try on the cories and betta fry once they are a little bit bigger. If they sink the cory fry would probably like them a lot. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Glad to read that you have microworms available. Feed them mostly microworms; DO NOT feed these fry live brine shrimp as they'll get no benefit from it -- until after the shrimp die and fall to the bottom one by one. This is one instance where frozen BBS is better than live. Cory fry do not swim up into the water column but browse the bottom, so they won't be feeding on live BBS in the water column. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51779	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51780	From: Bill	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

I have two friends up in DC attending the ACA convention.. Last report (3 minutes) ago, they expressed some disappointment in the overall organizational process. This B'S auction.. Is it advertised?.. Are there hospitality suites set up.. are there community gatherings?.. They have registered for the3 days and are at a loss as to what's going on, where anything is going on and frankly... why there are there.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 8:32:50 PM Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51781	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

Hi Bill. So far my girlfriend and are having a great time. The silent auctions went for embarrassingly low prices tonight. The Babes in the cichlids hobby is always an event at the conventionand is in the program. I am at it no. more later. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jul 22, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I have two friends up in DC attending the ACA convention.. Last report (3 minutes) ago, they expressed some disappointment in the overall organizational process. This B'S auction.. Is it advertised?.. Are there hospitality suites set up.. are there community gatherings?.. They have registered for the3 days and are at a loss as to what's going on, where anything is going on and frankly... why there are there.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 8:32:50 PM Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>;; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51782	From: Bill	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

I'm off loading a 180 1/2 cylinder and a 92 1/4 cylinder tank tomorrow around noon.. Might have to bolt up there tomorrow afternoon.. I'm trying to log into the website but it seems to be overloaded... The ACA site sucks.. Self promotion and no content.. Bill in Va. Deep into Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 10:19:50 PM Subject: Re: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Bill. So far my girlfriend and are having a great time. The silent auctions went for embarrassingly low prices tonight. The Babes in the cichlids hobby is always an event at the conventionand is in the program. I am at it no. more later. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Jul 22, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I have two friends up in DC attending the ACA convention.. Last report (3 minutes) ago, they expressed some disappointment in the overall organizational process. This B'S auction.. Is it advertised?.. Are there hospitality suites set up.. are there community gatherings?.. They have registered for the3 days and are at a loss as to what's going on, where anything is going on and frankly... why there are there.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 8:32:50 PM Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>;; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51783	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/22/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

they sound so much like my parrot, fred. he will either, ignore it, destroy it, eat it or make love to it. will my oscars like rock formations, etc. to swim through or anything to give them a little entertainment? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:01:00 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee Congrats on your progress. As mentioned previously, it tends to take a while for older oscars to settle into a new home. It sounds as if they're adjusting just fine. In regards to the plants, if you're wanting to know will the oscars eat the floating plants.... not likely. Any plants put into the substrate will get dug up and pulled out quickly. If they have plenty of shelter/decor in the tank then floating plants would only really serve one purpose... to help utilize the nutrient levels in the water (fish waste/food waste). Some oscars will shred any plant they have the option to do so, some oscars will just ignore plants that float. Its all about individual personality. There's no reason not to try, but be prepared to remove the plants if they start to shred them, since dead plant matter only adds to the waste in the tank. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51784	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/23/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Rock formations, yes, provided they are sturdy and can't topple over on the fish when they dig. The easy way to ensure this won't happen is to be sure the base pieces of rock sit directly on the bottom of the tank, any substrate should be put around them after they are placed. This will stabilize the rocks. Oscars love to dig and rearrange their tanks. I have also used a lot of silk plants in my oscar tanks over the yrs, easy to clean and weighted bottoms so they don't float... they work great. The oscars always move those around too. I avoid plastic plants for 3 reasons... 1. they float, 2. they can have sharp edges that can injure fish, 3. they don't last as long as silk, they fall apart and need to be replaced more often. I use a lot of silk plants found at the dollar stores. As long as they are rinsed well and checked to make sure no wire is exposed, they are a cheap and pretty alternative to the stuff sold in pet stores. If you decide to try these out, be sure they have no glitter or other soft/removable materials on them, and if any wires are exposed, a cigarette lighter can be used to melt the plastic enough to cover the wires. Please be careful when doing this so as not to burn yourself. Keep the flame low, it doesn't take much to do this. Once that is done, simply rinse it once more to cool the plastic coating completely through. The dollar store plants won't have weighted bottoms, so you may want to make some yourself (or stick to pet store brand of silk plants instead). Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > they sound so much like my parrot, fred. he will either, ignore it, destroy it, eat it or make love to it. will my oscars like rock formations, etc. to swim through or anything to give them a little entertainment? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:01:00 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on your progress. As mentioned previously, it tends to take a while for older oscars to settle into a new home. It sounds as if they're adjusting just fine. > > In regards to the plants, if you're wanting to know will the oscars eat the floating plants.... not likely. Any plants put into the substrate will get dug up and pulled out quickly. If they have plenty of shelter/decor in the tank then floating plants would only really serve one purpose... to help utilize the nutrient levels in the water (fish waste/food waste). Some oscars will shred any plant they have the option to do so, some oscars will just ignore plants that float. Its all about individual personality. There's no reason not to try, but be prepared to remove the plants if they start to shred them, since dead plant matter only adds to the waste in the tank. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51785	From: oranjedee momo	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

i did not know they like to dig and remodel. so should i make a deep pile of gravel on the bottom? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:57:56 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee Rock formations, yes, provided they are sturdy and can't topple over on the fish when they dig. The easy way to ensure this won't happen is to be sure the base pieces of rock sit directly on the bottom of the tank, any substrate should be put around them after they are placed. This will stabilize the rocks. Oscars love to dig and rearrange their tanks. I have also used a lot of silk plants in my oscar tanks over the yrs, easy to clean and weighted bottoms so they don't float... they work great. The oscars always move those around too. I avoid plastic plants for 3 reasons... 1. they float, 2. they can have sharp edges that can injure fish, 3. they don't last as long as silk, they fall apart and need to be replaced more often. I use a lot of silk plants found at the dollar stores. As long as they are rinsed well and checked to make sure no wire is exposed, they are a cheap and pretty alternative to the stuff sold in pet stores. If you decide to try these out, be sure they have no glitter or other soft/removable materials on them, and if any wires are exposed, a cigarette lighter can be used to melt the plastic enough to cover the wires. Please be careful when doing this so as not to burn yourself. Keep the flame low, it doesn't take much to do this. Once that is done, simply rinse it once more to cool the plastic coating completely through. The dollar store plants won't have weighted bottoms, so you may want to make some yourself (or stick to pet store brand of silk plants instead). Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > they sound so much like my parrot, fred. he will either, ignore it, destroy it, eat it or make love to it. will my oscars like rock formations, etc. to swim through or anything to give them a little entertainment? dee To: [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51786	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

Wow, you should have been easy to spot. I'm done with the convention and heading home tomorrow. Maybe next time. : ) Maybe you saw me.I was the 6 foot tall woman (short blonde hair, glasses) with a white-haired man my height. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 8:33 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51787	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/24/2011
Subject: Re: ACA Convention

I thought the organization was good.had a rough start Thursday I hear. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:38 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'm off loading a 180 1/2 cylinder and a 92 1/4 cylinder tank tomorrow around noon.. Might have to bolt up there tomorrow afternoon.. I'm trying to log into the website but it seems to be overloaded... The ACA site sucks.. Self promotion and no content.. Bill in Va. Deep into Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> " <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 10:19:50 PM Subject: Re: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Bill. So far my girlfriend and are having a great time. The silent auctions went for embarrassingly low prices tonight. The Babes in the cichlids hobby is always an event at the conventionand is in the program. I am at it no. more later. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: williemcd@... <mailto:williemcd%40yahoo.com> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, Jul 22, 2011 9:03 pm Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I have two friends up in DC attending the ACA convention.. Last report (3 minutes) ago, they expressed some disappointment in the overall organizational process. This B'S auction.. Is it advertised?.. Are there hospitality suites set up.. are there community gatherings?.. They have registered for the3 days and are at a loss as to what's going on, where anything is going on and frankly... why there are there.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> " <Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Fri, July 22, 2011 8:32:50 PM Subject: Re: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Hi Donna. Sorry for the late reply. We exhausted ourselves on the heat yesterday and did not check mail until now. Sitting in pthe Tanganyikan talk right now. Can't wait for the B's auction tonight. hope to run I to you. I am 6 foot 6. Bald white with glasses with a 5 foot tall woman with long curly hair.. Hope to meet you! Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 8:47 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention I'll be there Friday night and Saturday.maybe we can arrange to run into each other and say hi. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Deenerz@... <mailto:Deenerz%40aol.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 12:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Yes! I am upstairs in our room at the hotel right now Donna. Won't be bringing any livestock home but may get some dry goods. Here for the talks this year as well as the DC attractions. -Mike Gale -----Original Message----- From: Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net>;; > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>;; Sent: Wed, Jul 20, 2011 2:54 am Subject: [AquaticLife] ACA Convention Anyone going to the Cichlid extravaganza this weekend? Anyone showing fish? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51788	From: kuradi8	Date: 7/25/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

I don't have Discus but I have plants potted in "on the rocks" glasses from the local thrift store. That way it's easy to move them around to redecorate and vacuum around them without disturbing their root systems. I hear that Discus like tall plants to play Hide-and-Seek or Peek-a-Boo. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, himanshu kudav <himanshu_kudav@...> wrote: > > I just driftwood for the tank, before it was just plain. Hope this will solve the problem. > > Thanks for support. > > On Wed Jul 20th, 2011 3:31 PM EDT dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > >How much decoration is in the tank? They need hiding places to feel safe and avoid excessive amounts of stress. If the tank is bare then they are going to feel threatened whenever anyone/anything approaches the tank. Bare bottom tank is one thing, but a totally bare tank would be another... > > > >Hope this helps. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "himanshu" <himanshu_kudav@> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Friends > >> > >> I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> > >> > >> Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. > >> > >> There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. > >> > >> > >> Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. > >> > >> Regards > >> Himanshu > >> > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51789	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/25/2011
Subject: Re: my oscars - dee

Yes, many cichlid species like to dig... thats common. 3 - 4 inches of substrate/gravel should be plenty. You don't want it too deep, that can cause issues with water chemistry, toxic gases, etc. by creating a denitrifying bed (which is disturbed too much with fish that dig). As they settle in you will notice that they will dig out spots all the way down to the bare bottom and pile the gravel up in one area or another, and then a few days or a week later they'll do it again somewhere else. They also have the ability to move lighter things around, such as silk plants, light weight resin decor, etc. My geophagus cichlids do that more so than my oscars even did, its fun to watch. I never know what their tank will look like from day to day. Even my angelfish move the plants around until they have it the way they want it. Have fun! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@...> wrote: > > > > i did not know they like to dig and remodel. so should i make a deep pile of gravel on the bottom? dee To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 18:57:56 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: my oscars - dee > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock formations, yes, provided they are sturdy and can't topple over on the fish when they dig. The easy way to ensure this won't happen is to be sure the base pieces of rock sit directly on the bottom of the tank, any substrate should be put around them after they are placed. This will stabilize the rocks. Oscars love to dig and rearrange their tanks. I have also used a lot of silk plants in my oscar tanks over the yrs, easy to clean and weighted bottoms so they don't float... they work great. The oscars always move those around too. I avoid plastic plants for 3 reasons... 1. they float, 2. they can have sharp edges that can injure fish, 3. they don't last as long as silk, they fall apart and need to be replaced more often. I use a lot of silk plants found at the dollar stores. As long as they are rinsed well and checked to make sure no wire is exposed, they are a cheap and pretty alternative to the stuff sold in pet stores. If you decide to try these out, be sure they have no glitter or other soft/removable materials on them, and if any wires are exposed, a cigarette lighter can be used to melt the plastic enough to cover the wires. Please be careful when doing this so as not to burn yourself. Keep the flame low, it doesn't take much to do this. Once that is done, simply rinse it once more to cool the plastic coating completely through. The dollar store plants won't have weighted bottoms, so you may want to make some yourself (or stick to pet store brand of silk plants instead). > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, oranjedee momo <oranjedee@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > they sound so much like my parrot, fred. he will either, ignore it, destroy it, eat it or make love to it. will my oscars like rock formations, etc. to swim through or anything to give them a little entertainment? dee To: > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51790	From: Jade	Date: 7/26/2011
Subject: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51791	From: Bill	Date: 7/26/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Snails or some hiding spots. Bill ________________________________ From: Jade <ladyjadewindrunner@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, July 26, 2011 7:48:14 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51792	From: Kristen Kinzer	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

I have a large oscar and a red devil cichlid in my 75 gallon tank.  I have a larger, 10 inch or so pleco in there with them and no one seems to bother him.  I've had him for a good 6 months or so.  I also have freshwater nerite snails which do wonders for the algae and are said not to eat plants, although they do leave some small white eggs throughout the tank, BUT they cannot reproduce in freshwater so your tank will not get run over with snails!  The eggs never hatch, I just scrape them off the glass and things in my tank when I clean. I love these guys, and I was hesitant at first , but my fish do not bother them.   Kristen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51793	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

How big is the tank and how big are the fish? How much decor is in the tank? Those are the first important questions in a situation like this. Finding a pleco that is larger than the aggressive fish and providing it with hiding places where the other fish can't get to its under side can sometimes help. There are also some situations where its just not possible, I had a convict like that yrs ago... she lived alone because she killed everything. That is not uncommon for convict cichlids, and jewels have the same potential though its a bit more rare with them. Bill's suggestion of snails may or may not work... many convicts and jewels alike will eat snails. The next questions to ask are why do you need an algae eater? What type of algae is it? If the tank has an algae issue then the best way to handle it is not to add more fish/waste that can contribute to the problem, but to figure out the cause and eliminate the cause of the algae. In the mean time, scraping the tank glass with a blade is likely your best recourse. Some tanks just cannot accommodate an animal that eats algae and if the growth is minimal, the only solution is to do the work yourself. If you would like help sorting things out, answers to these questions would be the first step, including water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH and a list of foods and feeding schedule. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@...> wrote: > > Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51794	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated

Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water ... By American Water Works Association http://books.google.com/books?id=8cv36t8mOEwC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=half+life+of+chloramines+in+drinking+water&source=bl&ots=hXnFecUs2l&sig=9KCssvz2hwrNOEbKVTO7W0G8XB4&hl=en&ei=HDntTf6ZEJDpgQe838XXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false http://tinyurl.com/3cz7hrq This section talks about decomposition of chloramine in water, and shows that even letting the water set out for a few days will not dissipate the chloramine from the water. \\Steve//

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51795	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/27/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

I love the nerites but my mbuna and Tanganyikans kill them. They seem to be OK with haps and peacocks though. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kristen Kinzer Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2011 11:49 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters I have a large oscar and a red devil cichlid in my 75 gallon tank. I have a larger, 10 inch or so pleco in there with them and no one seems to bother him. I've had him for a good 6 months or so. I also have freshwater nerite snails which do wonders for the algae and are said not to eat plants, although they do leave some small white eggs throughout the tank, BUT they cannot reproduce in freshwater so your tank will not get run over with snails! The eggs never hatch, I just scrape them off the glass and things in my tank when I clean. I love these guys, and I was hesitant at first , but my fish do not bother them. Kristen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51796	From: Jade	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Firstly thanks to everyone for the replies! Dawn - The tank is a 20 gallon, however I will be getting them a bigger home VERY soon. The largest two fish (The male convict and male jewel) are about 2 1/2" long, the identified jewel female is about 2" and the unidentified juvenile is about 1". I have a decently sized rock cave for a hiding spit (That my plecos have never seemed interested in...) and have a good number of plants - about 4 water wisteria, 3 plants....that I can't remember the name of (They're mostly green but the leaves are lined in yellow, and the leaves are thin and grow close together) some java fern and one lonely dormant anubia that my convict keeps relocating at random (as well as the java fern. it seems my fish have inhereted my OCD.) A few years back I had a sailflin pleco that got over a foot long, needless to say he was given a different home as he couldn't swim very well and he would constantly hit his head on the hood of the tank when he would manage to do so. I would prefer not to keep snails, I had had an infestation that piggy-backed on some plants long ago and it took me ages to clean them out, as they were damaging the plants. The algae is brown, but flat appearing, a very dirt-brown color. It is growing primarily on the rock cave but there's some on the walls of the tank as well. I do clean it off quite regularly but it's like a bad penny - it keeps coming back. I'm not sure what the cause is nor how to get rid of it entirely. Water parameters I haven't had the ability to check lately save for ammonia which is at 0.2 ppm. I know my nitrate levels have always been quite high no matter what I do, though the nitrites have always been quite low. The pH ranges between 7.8 and 8.1. I figured it would be safer to get fish who prefer higher pH than try to chemically lower it which can stress the fish to no tomorrow, hence my choice in fish. I believe the pH to be an issue of the water here, though when I test the water out of the tap, it's a 7.6 pH. After letting it sit for awhile however, I do get the same reading as in my tank. I currently am feeding them TetraCichlid's Floating Cichlid Pellets once a day (in the morning) roughly about 8 pellets, and I remove any uneaten portions. At night I feed them TetraMin Tropical Crisps, roughly a teaspoon of these (they're small) and again, remove anything uneaten. Every few days I feed them a bit of freeze-dried blood worms. Again not much and I scoop out what isn't eaten. Truthfully, I'm an amateur at tending cichlids and have been oft relying on insight from my boyfriend who he and his family have had great success in raising and breeding them. I'm not entirely sure myself what the best water parameters for them are, though I do know with water changes to not do too much too fast, as they can be sensitive to sudden changes like that - I do 10% once a week, rather than the 20% once a week I was doing when I was inundated with guppies. So any insight or tips on general care and maintenance is more than welcome :) My biggest problem with the algae honestly, isn't the appearance, as I don't mind it looking au natural. My issue is it tends to clog my HOB filter's intake tube as well as gunk up the inside of it. I clean the tube out once a week or so but the algae seems to have other ideas about this and seems to redouble its efforts in growing there... okay, so I know it isn't conspiring against me, but it's frustrating no less. Thank you :) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > How big is the tank and how big are the fish? How much decor is in the tank? Those are the first important questions in a situation like this. Finding a pleco that is larger than the aggressive fish and providing it with hiding places where the other fish can't get to its under side can sometimes help. There are also some situations where its just not possible, I had a convict like that yrs ago... she lived alone because she killed everything. That is not uncommon for convict cichlids, and jewels have the same potential though its a bit more rare with them. > > Bill's suggestion of snails may or may not work... many convicts and jewels alike will eat snails. > > The next questions to ask are why do you need an algae eater? What type of algae is it? If the tank has an algae issue then the best way to handle it is not to add more fish/waste that can contribute to the problem, but to figure out the cause and eliminate the cause of the algae. In the mean time, scraping the tank glass with a blade is likely your best recourse. Some tanks just cannot accommodate an animal that eats algae and if the growth is minimal, the only solution is to do the work yourself. > > If you would like help sorting things out, answers to these questions would be the first step, including water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH and a list of foods and feeding schedule. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51797	From: haecklers	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

What kind of lighting do you have? On another list they said that sunlight and light in the more orange/yellow spectrum tends to foster algae growth. The aquarium bulbs lose the blue color as they age so around every 6 months need to be replaced. The blue end of the spectrum is what the plants need. If you don't have tons of plants in there to compete with the algae for nutrients, you could consider putting in an emergent plant (a plant that has leaves that grow out of the water). They grow faster because of the continuous access to Carbon Dioxide for the leaves, so they take up more nutrients. You can use lucky bamboo or houseplant cuttings that root readily in water, or emergent plants they sell for vivariums if you can find them. You can bend a piece of wire (like from a hanger) to hold the plant on the side of the tank or some people use styrofoam with a hole in it for the plant stem. But what you have sounds to me like diatoms, which are more a small animal thing than algae. Plecos do love to eat diatoms, so do snails. More on diatoms: http://www.stormbefore.com/diatoms.htm They thrive where there is plenty of nitrogen present (so again adding more plants will compete with them) and silicates - could be from sand substrate or the tap water. I've got Malaysian trumpet snails in my cichlid tank. I imagine the fish do eat some of them but they reproduce fast enough to continue to have a presence in there. They cleaned the rocks and caves completely of all diatoms. The tank looks really clean without me scrubbing anything anymore. Now I just have to get the snails out of the filter impeller (occasionally - so far they've only made it in there once.) I keep my cichlids in a 55-gallon tank and I've got one convict, 5 African Cichlids, 2 bala sharks, and a featherfin catfish in there. The high stocking density keeps them spreading the aggression around (mostly) so no one fish gets picked on too much. The featherfin fights with the cichlids a fair amount and seems to be able to hold its own against the aggressive fish but I'm not sure how much algae they eat. I think the snails are doing most of the algae/diatom eating.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51798	From: Ray	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Hi R, Seems as though there's a misconception here. Just as aquatic plant (and terrestrial plants as well) have evolved to make use of natural sunlight, the average/normal aquatic plant does best under a Natural Daylight fluorescent bulb -- in the 5,000K -- 6,700K range. These average/normal aquatic plants need light from both the blue end and the red end of the spectrum, but moreover, they need the red or yellow to promote photosynthesis. The color of the plant, as we see them, will tell us what color they don't need. Green plants reflect green light, so this is the color range they need least of, On the other hand, the specialty reddish-toned plants -- reflecting red light -- do not need as much of this range of the spectrum but do better with more bluish light in a higher Kelvin range up nearer 7,000K, or even higher. This is where the T-5 HO (High Output) bulbs are put to use just for these reddish plants. They still need a good amount of the red end of the spectrum though to stimulate the green chlorophyll in their cells, underneath what their red color is masking, to promote photosynthesis. That algae will put natural daylight range to good use too, just comes down to the red/yellow portion of the spectrum being necessary for all plant matter to help in the photosynthesis process. Using enough aquatic plants though, will utilize the excess nutrients, starving out the algae. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What kind of lighting do you have? On another list they said that sunlight and light in the more orange/yellow spectrum tends to foster algae growth. The aquarium bulbs lose the blue color as they age so around every 6 months need to be replaced. The blue end of the spectrum is what the plants need. > > If you don't have tons of plants in there to compete with the algae for nutrients, you could consider putting in an emergent plant (a plant that has leaves that grow out of the water). They grow faster because of the continuous access to Carbon Dioxide for the leaves, so they take up more nutrients. You can use lucky bamboo or houseplant cuttings that root readily in water, or emergent plants they sell for vivariums if you can find them. You can bend a piece of wire (like from a hanger) to hold the plant on the side of the tank or some people use styrofoam with a hole in it for the plant stem. > > But what you have sounds to me like diatoms, which are more a small animal thing than algae. Plecos do love to eat diatoms, so do snails. More on diatoms: http://www.stormbefore.com/diatoms.htm They thrive where there is plenty of nitrogen present (so again adding more plants will compete with them) and silicates - could be from sand substrate or the tap water. > > I've got Malaysian trumpet snails in my cichlid tank. I imagine the fish do eat some of them but they reproduce fast enough to continue to have a presence in there. They cleaned the rocks and caves completely of all diatoms. The tank looks really clean without me scrubbing anything anymore. Now I just have to get the snails out of the filter impeller (occasionally - so far they've only made it in there once.) > > I keep my cichlids in a 55-gallon tank and I've got one convict, 5 African Cichlids, 2 bala sharks, and a featherfin catfish in there. The high stocking density keeps them spreading the aggression around (mostly) so no one fish gets picked on too much. The featherfin fights with the cichlids a fair amount and seems to be able to hold its own against the aggressive fish but I'm not sure how much algae they eat. I think the snails are doing most of the algae/diatom eating. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51799	From: joe t	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramin

Thanks for the info \\Steve//. This is obviously not good for your aquarium. So what do we do to get around this problem? It si sure going to be expensive --to say the least-- to buy water for your aquarium. joe t --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water ... > By American Water Works Association > http://books.google.com/books?id=8cv36t8mOEwC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=half+life+of+chloramines+in+drinking+water&source=bl&ots=hXnFecUs2l&sig=9KCssvz2hwrNOEbKVTO7W0G8XB4&hl=en&ei=HDntTf6ZEJDpgQe838XXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false > http://tinyurl.com/3cz7hrq > > This section talks about decomposition of chloramine in water, and shows that even letting the water set out for a few days will not dissipate the chloramine from the water. > > \\Steve// >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51800	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

It looks like your tank may be doing a cycle. Did you recently move all your fish to this tank from another tank? Or did you recently add fish? Keep an eye on your ammonia and do regular water changes at least every few days if the Ammonia is going up at all. With such a high pH you can easily kill your fish with Ammonia poisoning. Do you have a reading for the nitrites? (I saw that you posted about nitrates, but nitrites are more poisonous than Ammonia so you'll need to be watching your nitrites as well as the Ammonia). Amber On 7/27/2011 10:03 PM, Jade wrote: > > Firstly thanks to everyone for the replies! > Dawn - The tank is a 20 gallon, however I will be getting them a > bigger home VERY soon. The largest two fish (The male convict and male > jewel) are about 2 1/2" long, the identified jewel female is about 2" > and the unidentified juvenile is about 1". I have a decently sized > rock cave for a hiding spit (That my plecos have never seemed > interested in...) and have a good number of plants - about 4 water > wisteria, 3 plants....that I can't remember the name of (They're > mostly green but the leaves are lined in yellow, and the leaves are > thin and grow close together) some java fern and one lonely dormant > anubia that my convict keeps relocating at random (as well as the java > fern. it seems my fish have inhereted my OCD.) A few years back I had > a sailflin pleco that got over a foot long, needless to say he was > given a different home as he couldn't swim very well and he would > constantly hit his head on the hood of the tank when he would manage > to do so. > > I would prefer not to keep snails, I had had an infestation that > piggy-backed on some plants long ago and it took me ages to clean them > out, as they were damaging the plants. > > The algae is brown, but flat appearing, a very dirt-brown color. It is > growing primarily on the rock cave but there's some on the walls of > the tank as well. I do clean it off quite regularly but it's like a > bad penny - it keeps coming back. I'm not sure what the cause is nor > how to get rid of it entirely. > > Water parameters I haven't had the ability to check lately save for > ammonia which is at 0.2 ppm. I know my nitrate levels have always been > quite high no matter what I do, though the nitrites have always been > quite low. The pH ranges between 7.8 and 8.1. I figured it would be > safer to get fish who prefer higher pH than try to chemically lower it > which can stress the fish to no tomorrow, hence my choice in fish. I > believe the pH to be an issue of the water here, though when I test > the water out of the tap, it's a 7.6 pH. After letting it sit for > awhile however, I do get the same reading as in my tank. > > I currently am feeding them TetraCichlid's Floating Cichlid Pellets > once a day (in the morning) roughly about 8 pellets, and I remove any > uneaten portions. At night I feed them TetraMin Tropical Crisps, > roughly a teaspoon of these (they're small) and again, remove anything > uneaten. Every few days I feed them a bit of freeze-dried blood worms. > Again not much and I scoop out what isn't eaten. > > Truthfully, I'm an amateur at tending cichlids and have been oft > relying on insight from my boyfriend who he and his family have had > great success in raising and breeding them. I'm not entirely sure > myself what the best water parameters for them are, though I do know > with water changes to not do too much too fast, as they can be > sensitive to sudden changes like that - I do 10% once a week, rather > than the 20% once a week I was doing when I was inundated with > guppies. So any insight or tips on general care and maintenance is > more than welcome :) > > My biggest problem with the algae honestly, isn't the appearance, as I > don't mind it looking au natural. My issue is it tends to clog my HOB > filter's intake tube as well as gunk up the inside of it. I clean the > tube out once a week or so but the algae seems to have other ideas > about this and seems to redouble its efforts in growing there... okay, > so I know it isn't conspiring against me, but it's frustrating no less. > > Thank you :) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > How big is the tank and how big are the fish? How much decor is in > the tank? Those are the first important questions in a situation like > this. Finding a pleco that is larger than the aggressive fish and > providing it with hiding places where the other fish can't get to its > under side can sometimes help. There are also some situations where > its just not possible, I had a convict like that yrs ago... she lived > alone because she killed everything. That is not uncommon for convict > cichlids, and jewels have the same potential though its a bit more > rare with them. > > > > Bill's suggestion of snails may or may not work... many convicts and > jewels alike will eat snails. > > > > The next questions to ask are why do you need an algae eater? What > type of algae is it? If the tank has an algae issue then the best way > to handle it is not to add more fish/waste that can contribute to the > problem, but to figure out the cause and eliminate the cause of the > algae. In the mean time, scraping the tank glass with a blade is > likely your best recourse. Some tanks just cannot accommodate an > animal that eats algae and if the growth is minimal, the only solution > is to do the work yourself. > > > > If you would like help sorting things out, answers to these > questions would be the first step, including water parameters for > ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH and a list of foods and feeding > schedule. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco > I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could > put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial > hostility of the cichlids? > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51801	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Hi Jade, I can see a few things that are likely contributing to your issue. First and foremost, not enough water changes. While you are correct that too much water changed too often or too fast can cause harm to the fish, 10% each week is not all that much for what you're keeping. I would suggest increasing your water changes to either 10% each day or a simple 30% each week. You need to get the nitrate levels down to 20 or below. That is the first step in getting control over your problem. Step 2 is to ease up on the feedings, especially while these fish are in such a small tank. Feeding them once/day is plenty, whatever they can completely finish in 1 - 2 minutes. Fish don't need to eat 3 times/day (except maybe for fry). Remember that any food you put into the tank begins to break down as soon as it hits the water. This can add a lot of waste to a tank without a person realizing it. You didn't mention anything about gravel vacs, how often do you do these? The clogging of your filter intake tells me there is too much organic debris left in the tank, either because too much is going in at a time or not enough is coming out on a regular basis. To clarify about your algae problem, can you tell us what happens when you touch it? Does it act like a powder that just floats freely into the water column and then resettles on the glass or decor? Or is it more solid, like a thin "mat" or solid film that forms and tends to "peel" when you rub it or try to remove it? And... does it collect on your filter media or just in the tank only? Ultimately your solution is to get the fish into a much larger tank. 20 gallons, even at those sizes, doesn't allow them any real room for growth, which is something they tend to do rather quickly when they are young and healthy. Considering the number of fish and their species, I would say you'll need a minimum of 75 - 90 gallons by the time they are full grown. Space is going to be one issue due to their size, but also because of territorial and aggressive behavior once they mature. I don't feel snails are a good solution to your problem, nor is any algae eating animal that you don't currently have space for anyways. I think adding anymore animals to this tank would only further contribute to the problem because it will simply add more waste to a tank that can't handle more. I think if you do at least a partial gravel vac with each water change (1/3 - 1/2 of the tank each time, picking up where you leave off each time) that will help your problem a lot... along with the other things I mentioned about increasing the amount of your water changes and/or frequency of them and cutting back on foods going in. High nitrates can cause a multitude of problems in an aquarium, including the issues you're dealing with as well as stunting the growth of the fish and causing illness. Adding more plants, as was suggest by others may also help some... Best of luck to you. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@...> wrote: > > Firstly thanks to everyone for the replies! > Dawn - The tank is a 20 gallon, however I will be getting them a bigger home VERY soon. The largest two fish (The male convict and male jewel) are about 2 1/2" long, the identified jewel female is about 2" and the unidentified juvenile is about 1". I have a decently sized rock cave for a hiding spit (That my plecos have never seemed interested in...) and have a good number of plants - about 4 water wisteria, 3 plants....that I can't remember the name of (They're mostly green but the leaves are lined in yellow, and the leaves are thin and grow close together) some java fern and one lonely dormant anubia that my convict keeps relocating at random (as well as the java fern. it seems my fish have inhereted my OCD.) A few years back I had a sailflin pleco that got over a foot long, needless to say he was given a different home as he couldn't swim very well and he would constantly hit his head on the hood of the tank when he would manage to do so. > > I would prefer not to keep snails, I had had an infestation that piggy-backed on some plants long ago and it took me ages to clean them out, as they were damaging the plants. > > The algae is brown, but flat appearing, a very dirt-brown color. It is growing primarily on the rock cave but there's some on the walls of the tank as well. I do clean it off quite regularly but it's like a bad penny - it keeps coming back. I'm not sure what the cause is nor how to get rid of it entirely. > > Water parameters I haven't had the ability to check lately save for ammonia which is at 0.2 ppm. I know my nitrate levels have always been quite high no matter what I do, though the nitrites have always been quite low. The pH ranges between 7.8 and 8.1. I figured it would be safer to get fish who prefer higher pH than try to chemically lower it which can stress the fish to no tomorrow, hence my choice in fish. I believe the pH to be an issue of the water here, though when I test the water out of the tap, it's a 7.6 pH. After letting it sit for awhile however, I do get the same reading as in my tank. > > I currently am feeding them TetraCichlid's Floating Cichlid Pellets once a day (in the morning) roughly about 8 pellets, and I remove any uneaten portions. At night I feed them TetraMin Tropical Crisps, roughly a teaspoon of these (they're small) and again, remove anything uneaten. Every few days I feed them a bit of freeze-dried blood worms. Again not much and I scoop out what isn't eaten. > > Truthfully, I'm an amateur at tending cichlids and have been oft relying on insight from my boyfriend who he and his family have had great success in raising and breeding them. I'm not entirely sure myself what the best water parameters for them are, though I do know with water changes to not do too much too fast, as they can be sensitive to sudden changes like that - I do 10% once a week, rather than the 20% once a week I was doing when I was inundated with guppies. So any insight or tips on general care and maintenance is more than welcome :) > > My biggest problem with the algae honestly, isn't the appearance, as I don't mind it looking au natural. My issue is it tends to clog my HOB filter's intake tube as well as gunk up the inside of it. I clean the tube out once a week or so but the algae seems to have other ideas about this and seems to redouble its efforts in growing there... okay, so I know it isn't conspiring against me, but it's frustrating no less. > > Thank you :) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > How big is the tank and how big are the fish? How much decor is in the tank? Those are the first important questions in a situation like this. Finding a pleco that is larger than the aggressive fish and providing it with hiding places where the other fish can't get to its under side can sometimes help. There are also some situations where its just not possible, I had a convict like that yrs ago... she lived alone because she killed everything. That is not uncommon for convict cichlids, and jewels have the same potential though its a bit more rare with them. > > > > Bill's suggestion of snails may or may not work... many convicts and jewels alike will eat snails. > > > > The next questions to ask are why do you need an algae eater? What type of algae is it? If the tank has an algae issue then the best way to handle it is not to add more fish/waste that can contribute to the problem, but to figure out the cause and eliminate the cause of the algae. In the mean time, scraping the tank glass with a blade is likely your best recourse. Some tanks just cannot accommodate an animal that eats algae and if the growth is minimal, the only solution is to do the work yourself. > > > > If you would like help sorting things out, answers to these questions would be the first step, including water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH and a list of foods and feeding schedule. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids? > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51802	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Hi Steve, Thanks for pointing that out-many people don't realise the dangers of chloramine & it's persistence despite ageing the water. I always tell people who want to age their water to check with their local water company first to see whether they use chlorine [which dissipates in a day] or chloramine [which doesn't!]. I think just about every water company website has a section whereby you can input your post/zip code & it will give you a detailed reading of the make-up of the water in that area. Joe-it probably isn't going to be expensive, if you are in any doubt what is in your water then simply add a good water conditioner like AquaSafe or Stress Coat & that will remove any chloramine. Then all you need to do is temperature-match it to your tank so you may have to stand it for a while. If you only have a small amount of water to add then sit the container in a hot bath until it warms up sufficiently. John*<o)))<* On 28 July 2011 16:27, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thanks for the info \\Steve//. This is obviously not good for your > aquarium. So what do we do to get around this problem? It si sure going to > be expensive --to say the least-- to buy water for your aquarium. > > joe t > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > > Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water > ... > > By American Water Works Association > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8cv36t8mOEwC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=half+life+of+chloramines+in+drinking+water&source=bl&ots=hXnFecUs2l&sig=9KCssvz2hwrNOEbKVTO7W0G8XB4&hl=en&ei=HDntTf6ZEJDpgQe838XXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false > > http://tinyurl.com/3cz7hrq > > > > This section talks about decomposition of chloramine in water, and shows > that even letting the water set out for a few days will not dissipate the > chloramine from the water. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51803	From: Bill	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Prime is my treatment method.. plus it treats 10 X the amount of water that Stress Coat does using the same amount.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 28, 2011 6:17:40 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water ... Hi Steve, Thanks for pointing that out-many people don't realise the dangers of chloramine & it's persistence despite ageing the water. I always tell people who want to age their water to check with their local water company first to see whether they use chlorine [which dissipates in a day] or chloramine [which doesn't!]. I think just about every water company website has a section whereby you can input your post/zip code & it will give you a detailed reading of the make-up of the water in that area. Joe-it probably isn't going to be expensive, if you are in any doubt what is in your water then simply add a good water conditioner like AquaSafe or Stress Coat & that will remove any chloramine. Then all you need to do is temperature-match it to your tank so you may have to stand it for a while. If you only have a small amount of water to add then sit the container in a hot bath until it warms up sufficiently. John*<o)))<* On 28 July 2011 16:27, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thanks for the info \\Steve//. This is obviously not good for your > aquarium. So what do we do to get around this problem? It si sure going to > be expensive --to say the least-- to buy water for your aquarium. > > joe t > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > > > Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water > ... > > By American Water Works Association > > >http://books.google.com/books?id=8cv36t8mOEwC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=half+life+of+chloramines+in+drinking+water&source=bl&ots=hXnFecUs2l&sig=9KCssvz2hwrNOEbKVTO7W0G8XB4&hl=en&ei=HDntTf6ZEJDpgQe838XXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false >e > > http://tinyurl.com/3cz7hrq > > > > This section talks about decomposition of chloramine in water, and shows > that even letting the water set out for a few days will not dissipate the > chloramine from the water. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51804	From: Ray	Date: 7/28/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

The dangers of chloramine should be realized, as this topic has been presented here time and again, and can be found in the archives -- even if not stated here recently as a reminder. Perhaps this danger needs to be addressed periodically so as not to forget about its consequences. In time, if nitrifying bacteria are present, they will slowly convert the ammonia portion of the chloramine to nitrite and then nitrate, allowing for the dissipation of the chlorine, but this can take up to 3 to 4 weeks for an aquarium filled with chloraminated water to be safe for occupation by fish. Otherwise, chloramine will not dissipate on its own, even if allowed to stand for twice this amount of time. If a purpose here is to recommend a good water conditioner, Stress Coat is not necessarily one of them. I should need to remind the mmembers, that whenever possible, chemicals foreign to a fish's environment should always be avoided. While it's not possible to avoid the main ingredients of these water conditioners if we want them to do the job of breaking down the chlorine-ammonia bond and converting the free ammonia into ammonium, we do not need to -- nor should we -- use conditioners containing other additives such as Aloe Vera, promoted as addressing stress issues in our fishes, such as what Stress Coat alludes to. Aloe Vera may do all the things that Stress Coat advertises it to do, including helping to heal wounds, speed tissue growth of torn fins and repairing any slime coat damage, etc., but how often should we expect these physical damages to our fishes when just doing normal partial water changes? For that matter, the addition of a Tablespoon of table salt per 5 gallons of water will promote greater slime secretion if we need to promote this in times of health issues (it would be more natural, rather than to offer our fishes a hand lotion < g >), but otherwise any unnecessary chemicals should be avoided, for the purest possible fresh water quality for the fishes. For starters, Stress Coat contains Amines (Base Polymers), and if used in the presence of the filter medium, Purigen (an ion exchange resin), this combination can be potentially toxic. There are a number of excellent, additive-free dechloraminators on the market though; Prime being one of them. Ultimate is another one of these excellent water conditioners. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Steve, > > Thanks for pointing that out-many people don't realise the dangers of > chloramine & it's persistence despite ageing the water. I always tell people > who want to age their water to check with their local water company first to > see whether they use chlorine [which dissipates in a day] or chloramine > [which doesn't!]. I think just about every water company website has a > section whereby you can input your post/zip code & it will give you a > detailed reading of the make-up of the water in that area. > > Joe-it probably isn't going to be expensive, if you are in any doubt what is > in your water then simply add a good water conditioner like AquaSafe or > Stress Coat & that will remove any chloramine. Then all you need to do is > temperature-match it to your tank so you may have to stand it for a while. > If you only have a small amount of water to add then sit the container in a > hot bath until it warms up sufficiently. > > John*<o)))<* > > On 28 July 2011 16:27, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thanks for the info \\Steve//. This is obviously not good for your > > aquarium. So what do we do to get around this problem? It si sure going to > > be expensive --to say the least-- to buy water for your aquarium. > > > > joe t > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > > > Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water > > ... > > > By American Water Works Association > > > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=8cv36t8mOEwC&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=half+life+of+chloramines+in+drinking+water&source=bl&ots=hXnFecUs2l&sig=9KCssvz2hwrNOEbKVTO7W0G8XB4&hl=en&ei=HDntTf6ZEJDpgQe838XXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false > > > http://tinyurl.com/3cz7hrq > > > > > > This section talks about decomposition of chloramine in water, and shows > > that even letting the water set out for a few days will not dissipate the > > chloramine from the water. > > > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51805	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Hi Ray, I'm in total agreement with you that the less amounts of anything we add to our tanks the better. I only quoted Stress Coat & AquaSafe as examples to those members who are unsure about making their water safe because they are the 2 products that I have personal experience of. Thanks for the advice regarding Prime & Ultimate. It was interesting what Bill said about Prime being 10 times stronger than Stress Coat, interestingly Stress Coat is 10 times stronger then AquaSafe so I wonder how much of the actual toxin-killing substance is in these treatments? Certain pond-safe products treat even larger amounts of water per dose so I wonder if we could use these in a tank environment? Something I want to ask you is the use of table salt. This is probably just a matter of the US using a different name to what we are used to in the UK but here table salt has harmful additives that are toxic to fish so I use sea or rock salt from supermarkets as long as they are 100% pure. Alternately you can use aquarium/marine/pond salt from the LFS. John*<o)))< * On 29 July 2011 01:48, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > The dangers of chloramine should be realized, as this topic has been > presented here time and again, and can be found in the archives -- even if > not stated here recently as a reminder. Perhaps this danger needs to be > addressed periodically so as not to forget about its consequences. > > In time, if nitrifying bacteria are present, they will slowly convert the > ammonia portion of the chloramine to nitrite and then nitrate, allowing for > the dissipation of the chlorine, but this can take up to 3 to 4 weeks for an > aquarium filled with chloraminated water to be safe for occupation by fish. > Otherwise, chloramine will not dissipate on its own, even if allowed to > stand for twice this amount of time. > > If a purpose here is to recommend a good water conditioner, Stress Coat is > not necessarily one of them. I should need to remind the mmembers, that > whenever possible, chemicals foreign to a fish's environment should always > be avoided. While it's not possible to avoid the main ingredients of these > water conditioners if we want them to do the job of breaking down the > chlorine-ammonia bond and converting the free ammonia into ammonium, we do > not need to -- nor should we -- use conditioners containing other additives > such as Aloe Vera, promoted as addressing stress issues in our fishes, such > as what Stress Coat alludes to. Aloe Vera may do all the things that Stress > Coat advertises it to do, including helping to heal wounds, speed tissue > growth of torn fins and repairing any slime coat damage, etc., but how often > should we expect these physical damages to our fishes when just doing normal > partial water changes? For that matter, the addition of a Tablespoon of > table salt per 5 gallons of water will promote greater slime secretion if we > need to promote this in times of health issues (it would be more natural, > rather than to offer our fishes a hand lotion < g >), but otherwise any > unnecessary chemicals should be avoided, for the purest possible fresh water > quality for the fishes. > > For starters, Stress Coat contains Amines (Base Polymers), and if used in > the presence of the filter medium, Purigen (an ion exchange resin), this > combination can be potentially toxic. > > There are a number of excellent, additive-free dechloraminators on the > market though; Prime being one of them. Ultimate is another one of these > excellent water conditioners. > > Ray > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51806	From: Ray	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Hi John, Actually, Stress Coat is not the worst conditioner one can use, but I wanted to point out the additives that it contains, which many people seem unaware of -- or are just not very concerned about. A leading on-line aquarium supply house (Drs Foster & Smith) here in the States claim that Stress Coat is their best selling water conditioner. Quite often, products containing similar ingredients -- sometimes even labeled as the same product by the same manufacturer, except being noted as for pond use -- will be double the strength as the same product sold for aquarium use. The pond-designed product may be used with complete safety for aquarium use, keepimg in mind that only half as much is needed; in other words, just follow the directions for the pond-designed products. Although "table salt" (Sodium Chloride) is not needed for general maintenance, it is generally recommended not to be used except where otherwise needed for certain applications. Many brands of "table salt" here in the States also contain additives, but these trace amounts of iodine have been determined not to be harmful to aquarium fishes when used in the token amounts some hobbyists use. Another additive that is often found in American table salt is an anti-caking compound, which may not do harm in the low salt levels commonly used by those preferring salt in their freshwater, although I have always recommended against the use of such table salts using these additives (it's the ant-caking compounds I'm mainly concerned with). Instead, I've always advocated using an additive-free 100% pure table salt, such as a brand name we have available in the States, by the name of Diamond Crystal salt. It's a Kosher table/pickling salt which contains absolutely no additives. Table salt may be used when treating for Ich, when the heat method is used, raising the temperature to a minimum of 30 o C (86 0 F). It can also be used in minute quantities of 1/8 teaspoon per gallon to prevent Brown Blood syndrome, when for some reason your nitrifying bacteria culture experiences an imbalance, provided this salt is added before the ammonia or nitrite elevates expotentially. The "token" Tablespoon per 5 U.S. Gallons of water used by some hobbyists as a permanent environment is defintely not need though. "Aquarium" and "Pond" salt is essentially the same thing as Kosher salt, only much more expensive -- and "Marine" salt may be used, but that's even more expensive yet, although I can appreciate the use of some of it (if one wants to spend the extra money) as a portion of the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) most often needed to be added to Rift Lake Cichlid tanks, in conjunction with the specialty Rift Lake buffers and salts. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I'm in total agreement with you that the less amounts of anything we add > to our tanks the better. I only quoted Stress Coat & AquaSafe as examples to > those members who are unsure about making their water safe because they are > the 2 products that I have personal experience of. Thanks for the advice > regarding Prime & Ultimate. > > It was interesting what Bill said about Prime being 10 times stronger than > Stress Coat, interestingly Stress Coat is 10 times stronger then AquaSafe so > I wonder how much of the actual toxin-killing substance is in these > treatments? Certain pond-safe products treat even larger amounts of water > per dose so I wonder if we could use these in a tank environment? > > Something I want to ask you is the use of table salt. This is probably just > a matter of the US using a different name to what we are used to in the UK > but here table salt has harmful additives that are toxic to fish so I use > sea or rock salt from supermarkets as long as they are 100% pure. > Alternately you can use aquarium/marine/pond salt from the LFS. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 29 July 2011 01:48, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > The dangers of chloramine should be realized, as this topic has been > > presented here time and again, and can be found in the archives -- even if > > not stated here recently as a reminder. Perhaps this danger needs to be > > addressed periodically so as not to forget about its consequences. > > > > In time, if nitrifying bacteria are present, they will slowly convert the > > ammonia portion of the chloramine to nitrite and then nitrate, allowing for > > the dissipation of the chlorine, but this can take up to 3 to 4 weeks for an > > aquarium filled with chloraminated water to be safe for occupation by fish. > > Otherwise, chloramine will not dissipate on its own, even if allowed to > > stand for twice this amount of time. > > > > If a purpose here is to recommend a good water conditioner, Stress Coat is > > not necessarily one of them. I should need to remind the mmembers, that > > whenever possible, chemicals foreign to a fish's environment should always > > be avoided. While it's not possible to avoid the main ingredients of these > > water conditioners if we want them to do the job of breaking down the > > chlorine-ammonia bond and converting the free ammonia into ammonium, we do > > not need to -- nor should we -- use conditioners containing other additives > > such as Aloe Vera, promoted as addressing stress issues in our fishes, such > > as what Stress Coat alludes to. Aloe Vera may do all the things that Stress > > Coat advertises it to do, including helping to heal wounds, speed tissue > > growth of torn fins and repairing any slime coat damage, etc., but how often > > should we expect these physical damages to our fishes when just doing normal > > partial water changes? For that matter, the addition of a Tablespoon of > > table salt per 5 gallons of water will promote greater slime secretion if we > > need to promote this in times of health issues (it would be more natural, > > rather than to offer our fishes a hand lotion < g >), but otherwise any > > unnecessary chemicals should be avoided, for the purest possible fresh water > > quality for the fishes. > > > > For starters, Stress Coat contains Amines (Base Polymers), and if used in > > the presence of the filter medium, Purigen (an ion exchange resin), this > > combination can be potentially toxic. > > > > There are a number of excellent, additive-free dechloraminators on the > > market though; Prime being one of them. Ultimate is another one of these > > excellent water conditioners. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51807	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/29/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

>The dangers of chloramine should be realized, as this topic has been >presented here time and again, and can be found in the archives -- >even if not stated here recently as a reminder. Perhaps this danger >needs to be addressed periodically so as not to forget about its >consequences. > >In time, if nitrifying bacteria are present, they will slowly >convert the ammonia portion of the chloramine to nitrite and then >nitrate, allowing for the dissipation of the chlorine, but this can >take up to 3 to 4 weeks for an aquarium filled with chloraminated >water to be safe for occupation by fish. Otherwise, chloramine will >not dissipate on its own, even if allowed to stand for twice this >amount of time. >--SNIP-- >There are a number of excellent, additive-free dechloraminators on >the market though; Prime being one of them. Ultimate is another one >of these excellent water conditioners. > >Ray Excellent points Ray and not well understood by the common hobbyist. Chloramine is a liquid and unlike gasses it doesn't leave by evaporation. That being said, if one asks the local water company if they put Chloramine into the water stream, their answer will most likely be "no". And in fact they don't purchase a chemical additive named Chloramine. What they do is introduce Chlorine gas and Ammonia gas into the water stream and use pH to control the formation of the compound, mono-Chloramine. A little di- and tri-Chloramine is formed at the same time. Careful control of pH and mix ratios produces mostly the desired compound. So, don't be surprised when the water company tells you that they don't put Chloramine in the tap water. Charles H > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Steve, >> >> Thanks for pointing that out-many people don't realise the dangers of >> chloramine & it's persistence despite ageing the water. I always tell people >> who want to age their water to check with their local water company first to >> see whether they use chlorine [which dissipates in a day] or chloramine >> [which doesn't!]. I think just about every water company website has a >> section whereby you can input your post/zip code & it will give you a > > detailed reading of the make-up of the water in that area. > > -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51808	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

i seem to find a solution to algae.  as you know i have my big boys in a holding tank until i can get them about a 150 gallon take.  the black, rubber maid, 100 gallon cattle feeder does not seem to get algae.  unfortunately, being black, i can only see them from above.  but we talk a lot.  they seem to have replaced me for their previous owners.  when i get anywhere near the tank, i will say something to them, and they come to the surface and seem to understand me and beg.  just like my parrot, fred.  i don't recommend this situation, but there's no algae.  i change about 1/3 water every three days unless it gets cloudy.  they don't seem to get upset.  as a side note, i wish they made fish tanks with a faucet like the contraption i have them in.  i hook up the garden hose and drain the lower third out.  it takes any "gunk" from the bottom.  then i syphon the replacement water from a couple of holding tanks into their tank.  it is so simple to clean.  dee   ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 28, 2011 1:05:06 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters   Hi Jade, I can see a few things that are likely contributing to your issue. First and foremost, not enough water changes. While you are correct that too much water changed too often or too fast can cause harm to the fish, 10% each week is not all that much for what you're keeping. I would suggest increasing your water changes to either 10% each day or a simple 30% each week. You need to get the nitrate levels down to 20 or below. That is the first step in getting control over your problem. Step 2 is to ease up on the feedings, especially while these fish are in such a small tank. Feeding them once/day is plenty, whatever they can completely finish in 1 - 2 minutes. Fish don't need to eat 3 times/day (except maybe for fry). Remember that any food you put into the tank begins to break down as soon as it hits the water. This can add a lot of waste to a tank without a person realizing it. You didn't mention anything about gravel vacs, how often do you do these? The clogging of your filter intake tells me there is too much organic debris left in the tank, either because too much is going in at a time or not enough is coming out on a regular basis. To clarify about your algae problem, can you tell us what happens when you touch it? Does it act like a powder that just floats freely into the water column and then resettles on the glass or decor? Or is it more solid, like a thin "mat" or solid film that forms and tends to "peel" when you rub it or try to remove it? And... does it collect on your filter media or just in the tank only? Ultimately your solution is to get the fish into a much larger tank. 20 gallons, even at those sizes, doesn't allow them any real room for growth, which is something they tend to do rather quickly when they are young and healthy. Considering the number of fish and their species, I would say you'll need a minimum of 75 - 90 gallons by the time they are full grown. Space is going to be one issue due to their size, but also because of territorial and aggressive behavior once they mature. I don't feel snails are a good solution to your problem, nor is any algae eating animal that you don't currently have space for anyways. I think adding anymore animals to this tank would only further contribute to the problem because it will simply add more waste to a tank that can't handle more. I think if you do at least a partial gravel vac with each water change (1/3 - 1/2 of the tank each time, picking up where you leave off each time) that will help your problem a lot... along with the other things I mentioned about increasing the amount of your water changes and/or frequency of them and cutting back on foods going in. High nitrates can cause a multitude of problems in an aquarium, including the issues you're dealing with as well as stunting the growth of the fish and causing illness. Adding more plants, as was suggest by others may also help some... Best of luck to you. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51809	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

wow!  thanks for the info.  i never thought about the reflect of plant color impacts.  never thought about it.  i am learning so much from this group.  and my big boys are so much happier.  i can't believe oscars are so interactive. question.  my guys are vivid red and black.  would this contribute like the plants?  dee ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, July 28, 2011 7:42:22 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters   Hi R, Seems as though there's a misconception here. Just as aquatic plant (and terrestrial plants as well) have evolved to make use of natural sunlight, the average/normal aquatic plant does best under a Natural Daylight fluorescent bulb -- in the 5,000K -- 6,700K range. These average/normal aquatic plants need light from both the blue end and the red end of the spectrum, but moreover, they need the red or yellow to promote photosynthesis. The color of the plant, as we see them, will tell us what color they don't need. Green plants reflect green light, so this is the color range they need least of, On the other hand, the specialty reddish-toned plants -- reflecting red light -- do not need as much of this range of the spectrum but do better with more bluish light in a higher Kelvin range up nearer 7,000K, or even higher. This is where the T-5 HO (High Output) bulbs are put to use just for these reddish plants. They still need a good amount of the red end of the spectrum though to stimulate the green chlorophyll in their cells, underneath what their red color is masking, to promote photosynthesis. That algae will put natural daylight range to good use too, just comes down to the red/yellow portion of the spectrum being necessary for all plant matter to help in the photosynthesis process. Using enough aquatic plants though, will utilize the excess nutrients, starving out the algae. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > What kind of lighting do you have? On another list they said that sunlight and >light in the more orange/yellow spectrum tends to foster algae growth. The >aquarium bulbs lose the blue color as they age so around every 6 months need to >be replaced. The blue end of the spectrum is what the plants need. > > If you don't have tons of plants in there to compete with the algae for >nutrients, you could consider putting in an emergent plant (a plant that has >leaves that grow out of the water). They grow faster because of the continuous >access to Carbon Dioxide for the leaves, so they take up more nutrients. You can >use lucky bamboo or houseplant cuttings that root readily in water, or emergent >plants they sell for vivariums if you can find them. You can bend a piece of >wire (like from a hanger) to hold the plant on the side of the tank or some >people use styrofoam with a hole in it for the plant stem. > > But what you have sounds to me like diatoms, which are more a small animal >thing than algae. Plecos do love to eat diatoms, so do snails. More on diatoms: >http://www.stormbefore.com/diatoms.htm They thrive where there is plenty of >nitrogen present (so again adding more plants will compete with them) and >silicates - could be from sand substrate or the tap water. > > I've got Malaysian trumpet snails in my cichlid tank. I imagine the fish do eat >some of them but they reproduce fast enough to continue to have a presence in >there. They cleaned the rocks and caves completely of all diatoms. The tank >looks really clean without me scrubbing anything anymore. Now I just have to get >the snails out of the filter impeller (occasionally - so far they've only made >it in there once.) > > I keep my cichlids in a 55-gallon tank and I've got one convict, 5 African >Cichlids, 2 bala sharks, and a featherfin catfish in there. The high stocking >density keeps them spreading the aggression around (mostly) so no one fish gets >picked on too much. The featherfin fights with the cichlids a fair amount and >seems to be able to hold its own against the aggressive fish but I'm not sure >how much algae they eat. I think the snails are doing most of the algae/diatom >eating. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51810	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Hi Charles, That is worrying to think it could be there without us knowing, I'm no expert at this & please correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that water companies will add chlorine or chloramine but not both? The detailed area water quality report should include chlorine [it does in mine anyway] so that should answer it. If you cannot see chlorine on the list then that is the time to call them about it. My local report shows very many chemicals [including chlorine] & minerals but no ammonia whatsoever. I don't know if this is common but my local company [Severn-Trent] has a chemist on hand who will answer specific queries & I have made use of this facility several times, also asking about phosphates & other stuff & they are always very helpful. In addition to this some of the websites have a specific section with basic information just for fishkeepers & this is encouraging too. John*<o)))< * On 29 July 2011 22:52, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > ** > > > >The dangers of chloramine should be realized, as this topic has been > >presented here time and again, and can be found in the archives -- > >even if not stated here recently as a reminder. Perhaps this danger > >needs to be addressed periodically so as not to forget about its > >consequences. > > > >In time, if nitrifying bacteria are present, they will slowly > >convert the ammonia portion of the chloramine to nitrite and then > >nitrate, allowing for the dissipation of the chlorine, but this can > >take up to 3 to 4 weeks for an aquarium filled with chloraminated > >water to be safe for occupation by fish. Otherwise, chloramine will > >not dissipate on its own, even if allowed to stand for twice this > >amount of time. > >--SNIP-- > > >There are a number of excellent, additive-free dechloraminators on > >the market though; Prime being one of them. Ultimate is another one > >of these excellent water conditioners. > > > >Ray > > Excellent points Ray and not well understood by the common > hobbyist. Chloramine is a liquid and unlike gasses it doesn't leave > by evaporation. > That being said, if one asks the local water company if they put > Chloramine into the water stream, their answer will most likely be > "no". And in fact they don't purchase a chemical additive named > Chloramine. What they do is introduce Chlorine gas and Ammonia gas > into the water stream and use pH to control the formation of the > compound, mono-Chloramine. A little di- and tri-Chloramine is formed > at the same time. Careful control of pH and mix ratios produces > mostly the desired compound. > So, don't be surprised when the water company tells you that > they don't put Chloramine in the tap water. > > Charles H > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51811	From: oranjedee	Date: 7/30/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

things have changed so much from when i had my fish years ago.  i could not believe it when they started putting salt in the tanks where i work.  i have a lot to relearn and rethink.  also, when fish are sold, we add the stress-coat to the bag.  (before i re-started my venture into the aquadic (sp) world) i thought the stress-coat basically just helped the fish travel better.  but between this groups and researching the sites you guys are providing - i might get fish wise.  dee ps - please don't ask me where i work, i don't want to start a unneeded fish selling ethics. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, July 29, 2011 10:09:24 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloraminated drinking water ...   Hi John, Actually, Stress Coat is not the worst conditioner one can use, but I wanted to point out the additives that it contains, which many people seem unaware of -- or are just not very concerned about. A leading on-line aquarium supply house (Drs Foster & Smith) here in the States claim that Stress Coat is their best selling water conditioner. Quite often, products containing similar ingredients -- sometimes even labeled as the same product by the same manufacturer, except being noted as for pond use -- will be double the strength as the same product sold for aquarium use. The pond-designed product may be used with complete safety for aquarium use, keepimg in mind that only half as much is needed; in other words, just follow the directions for the pond-designed products. Although "table salt" (Sodium Chloride) is not needed for general maintenance, it is generally recommended not to be used except where otherwise needed for certain applications. Many brands of "table salt" here in the States also contain additives, but these trace amounts of iodine have been determined not to be harmful to aquarium fishes when used in the token amounts some hobbyists use. Another additive that is often found in American table salt is an anti-caking compound, which may not do harm in the low salt levels commonly used by those preferring salt in their freshwater, although I have always recommended against the use of such table salts using these additives (it's the ant-caking compounds I'm mainly concerned with). Instead, I've always advocated using an additive-free 100% pure table salt, such as a brand name we have available in the States, by the name of Diamond Crystal salt. It's a Kosher table/pickling salt which contains absolutely no additives. Table salt may be used when treating for Ich, when the heat method is used, raising the temperature to a minimum of 30 o C (86 0 F). It can also be used in minute quantities of 1/8 teaspoon per gallon to prevent Brown Blood syndrome, when for some reason your nitrifying bacteria culture experiences an imbalance, provided this salt is added before the ammonia or nitrite elevates expotentially. The "token" Tablespoon per 5 U.S. Gallons of water used by some hobbyists as a permanent environment is defintely not need though. "Aquarium" and "Pond" salt is essentially the same thing as Kosher salt, only much more expensive -- and "Marine" salt may be used, but that's even more expensive yet, although I can appreciate the use of some of it (if one wants to spend the extra money) as a portion of the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) most often needed to be added to Rift Lake Cichlid tanks, in conjunction with the specialty Rift Lake buffers and salts. Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51812	From: Jade	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Hokay where to start. Um. Well, lighting - I have a 8,500k daylight bulb. The algae turns into powdery type suchstuff when I touch it. I do have plants yes, I have several well-growing water wisteria, some java fern, and some plant I can't recall the name of, as well as a now sprouting dwarf lily bulb. As for adding more plants, I'm slowly working on that but sadly, funds aren't quite available beyond what upkeep is already necessary. I'll increase my water change for sure. I use gravel vacs with every cleaning, but do not clean the entirety of the gravel at once, just sections in cycles so I don't upset the biological balance. On a side note. My male and female jewel cichlids have laid eggs. Does anyone know of anyone, or perhaps a store, in northwest Indiana (near Gary/Portage) that would take them in (or if a store take them in for free or trade) because I most definitely do not have space for them lol. I am going to be getting a new tank as soon as I possibly can. But again, funds prohibit this at the moment, as not only would I have to buy a new tank and hood/lights, but filter, heater, and stand as well as gravel. At this point unless someone shows up with a very large check for no reason whatsoever lol, patience is a necessity =\ --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi Jade, I can see a few things that are likely contributing to your issue. First and foremost, not enough water changes. While you are correct that too much water changed too often or too fast can cause harm to the fish, 10% each week is not all that much for what you're keeping. I would suggest increasing your water changes to either 10% each day or a simple 30% each week. You need to get the nitrate levels down to 20 or below. That is the first step in getting control over your problem. > Step 2 is to ease up on the feedings, especially while these fish are in such a small tank. Feeding them once/day is plenty, whatever they can completely finish in 1 - 2 minutes. Fish don't need to eat 3 times/day (except maybe for fry). Remember that any food you put into the tank begins to break down as soon as it hits the water. This can add a lot of waste to a tank without a person realizing it. > > You didn't mention anything about gravel vacs, how often do you do these? The clogging of your filter intake tells me there is too much organic debris left in the tank, either because too much is going in at a time or not enough is coming out on a regular basis. > > To clarify about your algae problem, can you tell us what happens when you touch it? Does it act like a powder that just floats freely into the water column and then resettles on the glass or decor? Or is it more solid, like a thin "mat" or solid film that forms and tends to "peel" when you rub it or try to remove it? And... does it collect on your filter media or just in the tank only? > > Ultimately your solution is to get the fish into a much larger tank. 20 gallons, even at those sizes, doesn't allow them any real room for growth, which is something they tend to do rather quickly when they are young and healthy. Considering the number of fish and their species, I would say you'll need a minimum of 75 - 90 gallons by the time they are full grown. Space is going to be one issue due to their size, but also because of territorial and aggressive behavior once they mature. > > I don't feel snails are a good solution to your problem, nor is any algae eating animal that you don't currently have space for anyways. I think adding anymore animals to this tank would only further contribute to the problem because it will simply add more waste to a tank that can't handle more. I think if you do at least a partial gravel vac with each water change (1/3 - 1/2 of the tank each time, picking up where you leave off each time) that will help your problem a lot... along with the other things I mentioned about increasing the amount of your water changes and/or frequency of them and cutting back on foods going in. High nitrates can cause a multitude of problems in an aquarium, including the issues you're dealing with as well as stunting the growth of the fish and causing illness. > > Adding more plants, as was suggest by others may also help some... > > Best of luck to you. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > Firstly thanks to everyone for the replies! > > Dawn - The tank is a 20 gallon, however I will be getting them a bigger home VERY soon. The largest two fish (The male convict and male jewel) are about 2 1/2" long, the identified jewel female is about 2" and the unidentified juvenile is about 1". I have a decently sized rock cave for a hiding spit (That my plecos have never seemed interested in...) and have a good number of plants - about 4 water wisteria, 3 plants....that I can't remember the name of (They're mostly green but the leaves are lined in yellow, and the leaves are thin and grow close together) some java fern and one lonely dormant anubia that my convict keeps relocating at random (as well as the java fern. it seems my fish have inhereted my OCD.) A few years back I had a sailflin pleco that got over a foot long, needless to say he was given a different home as he couldn't swim very well and he would constantly hit his head on the hood of the tank when he would manage to do so. > > > > I would prefer not to keep snails, I had had an infestation that piggy-backed on some plants long ago and it took me ages to clean them out, as they were damaging the plants. > > > > The algae is brown, but flat appearing, a very dirt-brown color. It is growing primarily on the rock cave but there's some on the walls of the tank as well. I do clean it off quite regularly but it's like a bad penny - it keeps coming back. I'm not sure what the cause is nor how to get rid of it entirely. > > > > Water parameters I haven't had the ability to check lately save for ammonia which is at 0.2 ppm. I know my nitrate levels have always been quite high no matter what I do, though the nitrites have always been quite low. The pH ranges between 7.8 and 8.1. I figured it would be safer to get fish who prefer higher pH than try to chemically lower it which can stress the fish to no tomorrow, hence my choice in fish. I believe the pH to be an issue of the water here, though when I test the water out of the tap, it's a 7.6 pH. After letting it sit for awhile however, I do get the same reading as in my tank. > > > > I currently am feeding them TetraCichlid's Floating Cichlid Pellets once a day (in the morning) roughly about 8 pellets, and I remove any uneaten portions. At night I feed them TetraMin Tropical Crisps, roughly a teaspoon of these (they're small) and again, remove anything uneaten. Every few days I feed them a bit of freeze-dried blood worms. Again not much and I scoop out what isn't eaten. > > > > Truthfully, I'm an amateur at tending cichlids and have been oft relying on insight from my boyfriend who he and his family have had great success in raising and breeding them. I'm not entirely sure myself what the best water parameters for them are, though I do know with water changes to not do too much too fast, as they can be sensitive to sudden changes like that - I do 10% once a week, rather than the 20% once a week I was doing when I was inundated with guppies. So any insight or tips on general care and maintenance is more than welcome :) > > > > My biggest problem with the algae honestly, isn't the appearance, as I don't mind it looking au natural. My issue is it tends to clog my HOB filter's intake tube as well as gunk up the inside of it. I clean the tube out once a week or so but the algae seems to have other ideas about this and seems to redouble its efforts in growing there... okay, so I know it isn't conspiring against me, but it's frustrating no less. > > > > Thank you :) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > How big is the tank and how big are the fish? How much decor is in the tank? Those are the first important questions in a situation like this. Finding a pleco that is larger than the aggressive fish and providing it with hiding places where the other fish can't get to its under side can sometimes help. There are also some situations where its just not possible, I had a convict like that yrs ago... she lived alone because she killed everything. That is not uncommon for convict cichlids, and jewels have the same potential though its a bit more rare with them. > > > > > > Bill's suggestion of snails may or may not work... many convicts and jewels alike will eat snails. > > > > > > The next questions to ask are why do you need an algae eater? What type of algae is it? If the tank has an algae issue then the best way to handle it is not to add more fish/waste that can contribute to the problem, but to figure out the cause and eliminate the cause of the algae. In the mean time, scraping the tank glass with a blade is likely your best recourse. Some tanks just cannot accommodate an animal that eats algae and if the growth is minimal, the only solution is to do the work yourself. > > > > > > If you would like help sorting things out, answers to these questions would be the first step, including water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH and a list of foods and feeding schedule. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi! I have three jewel chichlids and a black convict... any pleco I have put in gets killed... I was wondering what sort of fish I could put in that eats algae and would be able to survive the territorial hostility of the cichlids? > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51813	From: haecklers	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

It sounds like you've really done your homework and are taking great care of your tank. I think with my tanks there are seasons where the tap water parameters change - fertilizer runoff or something, and it makes the algae grow, then other seasons it all dies off on its own again. Right now staghorn algae is taking over my shrimp tank but the baby shrimp love it so I decided to let it. Two other tanks that had serious algae problems are getting stable again and in one the plants are growing like mad all of a sudden where before there was algae on their leaves that was killing them all. In that one I had to remove a lot of fish to bring the load down, but I'm not sure if that's what did the trick. Try thrift stores for stands, a lot of them have furniture that is strong enough to hold an aquarium with the added bonus they often have storage and are more attractive than what the pet stores sell for a very small proportion of the price. Craigslist often has tanks (unfortunately around here people seem to think they DON'T depreciate in value, at all, from brand new) and www.freecycle.org often has tanks that come up for free (how I got my 55 gallon, with stand, filters, hood, lights, and even some decorations - I just had to be able to remove it for them!) If there are any owner-operated local pet stores (as opposed to the big chains like PetCo or PetSmart) they'll often happily accept donated fish but they usually want them to be salable size. But I imagine your convict may decimate any fry that manage to hatch. We have one store that will take any salable sized fish from us as a donation, and two more that actually pay us for fish, in cash. Even the one that takes them as a donation will often give us some free crickets for our lizard if it's been a good day. For plants, you can use a lot of houseplants as emergent plants, like pothos, ivy, jade, wandering Jew, ficus. They just want the stem in the water and the leaves out of the water. In my tanks they usually root very quickly and if they grow too big I'll pot them up and put in another cutting. Friends, moms, & grandmothers are often happy to give you a piece of their houseplant next time they get too big. And anyone who actually has java fern, vallisneria, or any of a number of aquatic plants is constantly trimming them so they don't take over the tank and would probably also happily give them to you rather than throw them away. The trick is finding them, but a want ad on Craigslist might help with that too. That's how I got my first bristlenose plecos - I put a want ad on craigslist and found a local fellow who had some that were breeding. Regards, Renate H. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@...> wrote: > > Hokay where to start. Um. Well, lighting - I have a 8,500k daylight bulb. The algae turns into powdery type suchstuff when I touch it. I do have plants yes, I have several well-growing water wisteria, some java fern, and some plant I can't recall the name of, as well as a now sprouting dwarf lily bulb. As for adding more plants, I'm slowly working on that but sadly, funds aren't quite available beyond what upkeep is already necessary. > > I'll increase my water change for sure. I use gravel vacs with every cleaning, but do not clean the entirety of the gravel at once, just sections in cycles so I don't upset the biological balance. > > On a side note. My male and female jewel cichlids have laid eggs. Does anyone know of anyone, or perhaps a store, in northwest Indiana (near Gary/Portage) that would take them in (or if a store take them in for free or trade) because I most definitely do not have space for them lol. > > I am going to be getting a new tank as soon as I possibly can. But again, funds prohibit this at the moment, as not only would I have to buy a new tank and hood/lights, but filter, heater, and stand as well as gravel. At this point unless someone shows up with a very large check for no reason whatsoever lol, patience is a necessity =\ >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51814	From: Andy Mills	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: A few snail questions

Hello, I've got a few questions about various types of aquatic snails. First, I'd be interested to hear of people's experiences with zebra snails. I hear they're good algae eaters and have just got a couple, one for two of my 3 current tanks - don't think they'd survive long in my other tank with my big oscar, sailfin pleco and severum! I'd be interested to hear people's experiences with them, how long they live, etc. Next question, apple snails. I've never up to now had much luck with keeping apple snails for any length of time. They seem to do fine for 3 or 4 months, then just die for no apparent reason. Whilst alive they seem to be active and eat well, but then just one day turn up dead. One of my friends has said exactly the same thing happened to her with apple snails, she couldn't keep them alive for more than a few months. Anybody got any ideas why this could he? Next question, rabbit snails. I bought about a month ago what was supposed to be a rabbit snail, but after reading about them I'm slightly doubtful. From what I've read, rabbit snails are more cone shaped, but this snail's shell looks very much like an apple snail shape. Also it's got a little trap door like an apple snail. It's front feelers are quite long, but as I've not got an apple snail to compare it to, I'm not certain whether they're longer or not. Also, the article I read on rabbit snails said they move in a sort of jerky way, the body moves forward first and then the shell sort of pulls up after it. This snail I've got seems to just glide around the tank. I can't post a picture of it, but it's got a dark brownish/black shell and a yellow body. Do you think this sounds like some type of rabbit snail or is it just a different variety of apple snail? Last question, an identification question. This may be difficult as I can't post a picture and am unable to see pictures on screen due to my sight problem, but I'll try my best. About 17 months ago my friend let me have a couple of small snails from her tank. I put them in with my fancy goldfish and since then they've been breeding, although not quickly and have never become a problem. The population seems to stay around 6 or 7, which is absolutely fine with me. The thing is, I don't know what type of snail they are. They're fairly small at full size. Their shape, if lying on their side, is sort of like half a wheel. When they're very tiny, the shell is very dark, but as they grow the shell goes lighter and ends up quite a light grey when they're adult. They spend most of their time either crawling on the gravel or climbing up the glass, presumably grazing algae. It's strange how their population always seems to stay about the same, occasionally we'll find an empty shell or two but there always seem to be about 6 or 7 of these snails crawling around, sometimes tiny ones and sometimes bigger ones. Can anyone hazard a guess as to what type of snail these are?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51815	From: haecklers	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions

If by zebra snails you mean zebra nerites, they are wonderful to have but if they ever disappear check the floor around the tank - they can go for a wander and then dry out and die. Usually if you find them within a day and put them back in they do ok. They also can't get up if they fall and land on their back, and I read they can eventually die from this predicament, so if you see them on their backs do them a favor and flip them over. They don't reproduce in fresh water so you'll never get overrun and they don't seem to eat any plants either. my cichlids ate them when I put them in their tank. Sometimes with apple snails the fish will bite their antennae. If they lose both I heard they starve to death. I think that's why snails never manage to live long in my fry tanks. The long moving antennae just look like tasty worms to the fish. The last question, look up "Acute Bladder Snail" and see if that's what you have. I really like these little guys. They're great for eating the biofilm that can develop on the top of the water, they keep the tank pretty clean, don't reproduce out of control, and seem pretty well-behaved in general. One site said they could be called racing snails because they can really book along, not like a "snail's pace" at all! They're called bladder snails because they have an air bladder that makes them buoyant so they can go floating up or down at will. I tried an apple snail once and it ate all the plants in my tank in a week. Never kept them again, and I've never had rabbit snails but it sounds like you got something else. Best, Renate H. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Andy Mills <andy.mills@...> wrote: > > Hello, I've got a few questions about various types of aquatic snails. > First, I'd be interested to hear of people's experiences with zebra > snails. I hear they're good algae eaters and have just got a couple, > one for two of my 3 current tanks - don't think they'd survive long in > my other tank with my big oscar, sailfin pleco and severum! I'd be > interested to hear people's experiences with them, how long they live, etc. > > Next question, apple snails. I've never up to now had much luck with > keeping apple snails for any length of time. They seem to do fine for 3 > or 4 months, then just die for no apparent reason. Whilst alive they > seem to be active and eat well, but then just one day turn up dead. One > of my friends has said exactly the same thing happened to her with apple > snails, she couldn't keep them alive for more than a few months. > Anybody got any ideas why this could he? > > Next question, rabbit snails. I bought about a month ago what was > supposed to be a rabbit snail, but after reading about them I'm slightly > doubtful. From what I've read, rabbit snails are more cone shaped, but > this snail's shell looks very much like an apple snail shape. Also it's > got a little trap door like an apple snail. It's front feelers are > quite long, but as I've not got an apple snail to compare it to, I'm not > certain whether they're longer or not. Also, the article I read on > rabbit snails said they move in a sort of jerky way, the body moves > forward first and then the shell sort of pulls up after it. This snail > I've got seems to just glide around the tank. I can't post a picture > of it, but it's got a dark brownish/black shell and a yellow body. Do > you think this sounds like some type of rabbit snail or is it just a > different variety of apple snail? > > Last question, an identification question. This may be difficult as I > can't post a picture and am unable to see pictures on screen due to my > sight problem, but I'll try my best. About 17 months ago my friend let > me have a couple of small snails from her tank. I put them in with my > fancy goldfish and since then they've been breeding, although not > quickly and have never become a problem. The population seems to stay > around 6 or 7, which is absolutely fine with me. The thing is, I don't > know what type of snail they are. They're fairly small at full size. > Their shape, if lying on their side, is sort of like half a wheel. When > they're very tiny, the shell is very dark, but as they grow the shell > goes lighter and ends up quite a light grey when they're adult. They > spend most of their time either crawling on the gravel or climbing up > the glass, presumably grazing algae. It's strange how their population > always seems to stay about the same, occasionally we'll find an empty > shell or two but there always seem to be about 6 or 7 of these snails > crawling around, sometimes tiny ones and sometimes bigger ones. Can > anyone hazard a guess as to what type of snail these are? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51816	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions

If you mean zebra nerite snails they live about one year (although I have 1 out of 12 that is going on two years) and mine did best with haplochromines and aulonocaras versus mbuna or Tangs. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Andy Mills Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 7:45 AM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] A few snail questions Hello, I've got a few questions about various types of aquatic snails. First, I'd be interested to hear of people's experiences with zebra snails. I hear they're good algae eaters and have just got a couple, one for two of my 3 current tanks - don't think they'd survive long in my other tank with my big oscar, sailfin pleco and severum! I'd be interested to hear people's experiences with them, how long they live, etc. Next question, apple snails. I've never up to now had much luck with keeping apple snails for any length of time. They seem to do fine for 3 or 4 months, then just die for no apparent reason. Whilst alive they seem to be active and eat well, but then just one day turn up dead. One of my friends has said exactly the same thing happened to her with apple snails, she couldn't keep them alive for more than a few months. Anybody got any ideas why this could he? Next question, rabbit snails. I bought about a month ago what was supposed to be a rabbit snail, but after reading about them I'm slightly doubtful. From what I've read, rabbit snails are more cone shaped, but this snail's shell looks very much like an apple snail shape. Also it's got a little trap door like an apple snail. It's front feelers are quite long, but as I've not got an apple snail to compare it to, I'm not certain whether they're longer or not. Also, the article I read on rabbit snails said they move in a sort of jerky way, the body moves forward first and then the shell sort of pulls up after it. This snail I've got seems to just glide around the tank. I can't post a picture of it, but it's got a dark brownish/black shell and a yellow body. Do you think this sounds like some type of rabbit snail or is it just a different variety of apple snail? Last question, an identification question. This may be difficult as I can't post a picture and am unable to see pictures on screen due to my sight problem, but I'll try my best. About 17 months ago my friend let me have a couple of small snails from her tank. I put them in with my fancy goldfish and since then they've been breeding, although not quickly and have never become a problem. The population seems to stay around 6 or 7, which is absolutely fine with me. The thing is, I don't know what type of snail they are. They're fairly small at full size. Their shape, if lying on their side, is sort of like half a wheel. When they're very tiny, the shell is very dark, but as they grow the shell goes lighter and ends up quite a light grey when they're adult. They spend most of their time either crawling on the gravel or climbing up the glass, presumably grazing algae. It's strange how their population always seems to stay about the same, occasionally we'll find an empty shell or two but there always seem to be about 6 or 7 of these snails crawling around, sometimes tiny ones and sometimes bigger ones. Can anyone hazard a guess as to what type of snail these are? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51817	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs

Can you remember if the problem groups were an odd number of fish, or an even number. I seem to recall reading somewhere that odd numbered schools or shoals of aggressive fish were less aggressive than even numbered groups. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Roy Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:24 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Compatibility of Tiger Barbs For last over 35 years, I have been keeping Tiger Barbs in different community tanks. I have noticed that some groups of Tiger Barbs do not nip the fins of other slow moving species but some groups are very aggressive and I have to change them. I would like to have some in-put from others who have same expereince. Ken Roy Lahore, Pakistan www.kendensar.info

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51818	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Discus

The fish have no hiding places to make them feel secure. Add several tall plants, and/or driftwood to give them some places to hide in or behind, and their behavior should change. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of himanshu Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 3:15 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Discus Dear Friends I have 200cm x 50cm x 45cm bare bottom tank for discus. Total of 12disucs of size 6inches. I bought them of medium size. I feed them lamb heart mixed with garlic,also freezed red worms and discus gold granules. Everything is fine when they are eating and growing, but>>>> Discus are always frightened and always in the corner, when we sit very far from tank they move around and enjoy the big tank. But once somebody get up me,wife or my son they run to the corner.Even though the tank is near to the main door their is no real disturbance as we both are working and my son goes to school, so almost 8 hours nobody is their in the house. I am not checking any water parametres, since Disucs are growing well, eating properly. The tank has two external filters and tempreture maintained is 30degree. Water change is done twice a week almost 80%. There are also 6 threadfin rainbows and 6 pencil fish in the tank. Please let me know what could be the reason for this strange behavour. Regards Himanshu

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51819	From: Steve Szabo	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio

It is normally a good idea to have more females than males, particularly with livebearers, to remove the stress of being constantly harassed by the males. Of course, if you really want to have some fun, there is a small group of a few species of livebearers not often seen commercially that are either left handed or right handed breeders and need to match up properly to have any success with them <g>. \\Steve// -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PAULA BROWN Sent: Tuesday, June 07, 2011 6:19 PM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Male to Female Ratio In the past month, I bought one male/one female Molly and one female/one male Platy. They are in an established (for years) 29 gallon lightly planted tank. There are two golden algae eaters, one black tetra and two small danios in there also. The male Molly and the male Platy seem to be bugging the females - following them around, etc. Should I purchase more females? Years ago when I had Guppies, I did a three females to one male ratio - should I be doing this also with the Molly and the Platy? I am starting up a 10 gallon (hopefully planted) tank tonight for future use of any babies that may be produced. My boyfriend has five tanks so finding room for any babies should not be a problem. Paula

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51820	From: Andy Mills	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions

Thanks. I did see one of my zebras out of the water a few days ago, he was up above the water line and just seemed to be resting there, stuck to the glass. He was there for several hours but by the morning he was back climbing around the sides of the tank again. I've tried to cover up all the escape holes so hopefully they won't try and escape. I'll look up bladder snails later, maybe I'll get my friend to look as well so she can have a look at the pictures and see if she thinks that's what they are. It would be nice to find out what type they are. On 31/07/2011 13:32, haecklers wrote: > If by zebra snails you mean zebra nerites, they are wonderful to have but if they ever disappear check the floor around the tank - they can go for a wander and then dry out and die. Usually if you find them within a day and put them back in they do ok. They also can't get up if they fall and land on their back, and I read they can eventually die from this predicament, so if you see them on their backs do them a favor and flip them over. They don't reproduce in fresh water so you'll never get overrun and they don't seem to eat any plants either. my cichlids ate them when I put them in their tank. > > Sometimes with apple snails the fish will bite their antennae. If they lose both I heard they starve to death. I think that's why snails never manage to live long in my fry tanks. The long moving antennae just look like tasty worms to the fish. > > The last question, look up "Acute Bladder Snail" and see if that's what you have. I really like these little guys. They're great for eating the biofilm that can develop on the top of the water, they keep the tank pretty clean, don't reproduce out of control, and seem pretty well-behaved in general. One site said they could be called racing snails because they can really book along, not like a "snail's pace" at all! They're called bladder snails because they have an air bladder that makes them buoyant so they can go floating up or down at will. > > I tried an apple snail once and it ate all the plants in my tank in a week. Never kept them again, and I've never had rabbit snails but it sounds like you got something else. > > Best, > > Renate H. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Andy Mills<andy.mills@...> wrote: >> Hello, I've got a few questions about various types of aquatic snails. >> First, I'd be interested to hear of people's experiences with zebra >> snails. I hear they're good algae eaters and have just got a couple, >> one for two of my 3 current tanks - don't think they'd survive long in >> my other tank with my big oscar, sailfin pleco and severum! I'd be >> interested to hear people's experiences with them, how long they live, etc. >> >> Next question, apple snails. I've never up to now had much luck with >> keeping apple snails for any length of time. They seem to do fine for 3 >> or 4 months, then just die for no apparent reason. Whilst alive they >> seem to be active and eat well, but then just one day turn up dead. One >> of my friends has said exactly the same thing happened to her with apple >> snails, she couldn't keep them alive for more than a few months. >> Anybody got any ideas why this could he? >> >> Next question, rabbit snails. I bought about a month ago what was >> supposed to be a rabbit snail, but after reading about them I'm slightly >> doubtful. From what I've read, rabbit snails are more cone shaped, but >> this snail's shell looks very much like an apple snail shape. Also it's >> got a little trap door like an apple snail. It's front feelers are >> quite long, but as I've not got an apple snail to compare it to, I'm not >> certain whether they're longer or not. Also, the article I read on >> rabbit snails said they move in a sort of jerky way, the body moves >> forward first and then the shell sort of pulls up after it. This snail >> I've got seems to just glide around the tank. I can't post a picture >> of it, but it's got a dark brownish/black shell and a yellow body. Do >> you think this sounds like some type of rabbit snail or is it just a >> different variety of apple snail? >> >> Last question, an identification question. This may be difficult as I >> can't post a picture and am unable to see pictures on screen due to my >> sight problem, but I'll try my best. About 17 months ago my friend let >> me have a couple of small snails from her tank. I put them in with my >> fancy goldfish and since then they've been breeding, although not >> quickly and have never become a problem. The population seems to stay >> around 6 or 7, which is absolutely fine with me. The thing is, I don't >> know what type of snail they are. They're fairly small at full size. >> Their shape, if lying on their side, is sort of like half a wheel. When >> they're very tiny, the shell is very dark, but as they grow the shell >> goes lighter and ends up quite a light grey when they're adult. They >> spend most of their time either crawling on the gravel or climbing up >> the glass, presumably grazing algae. It's strange how their population >> always seems to stay about the same, occasionally we'll find an empty >> shell or two but there always seem to be about 6 or 7 of these snails >> crawling around, sometimes tiny ones and sometimes bigger ones. Can >> anyone hazard a guess as to what type of snail these are? >> > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience& ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply& if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)"<- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51821	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramin

The water departments have an obligation to test for and report the active Chlorine in the tap water. That does not say if it is bound to Ammonium or not. It isn't always a part of the report. The Missouri American Water report for St. Louis, County and St Charles contains a report of Chloramines and the level reported for water leaving their Treatment Facility is 2.4 ppm. Field samples report 2.7 ppm. Important information such as Phosphates, Nitrates, Ammonia, pH, Alkanity and hardness are not reported. Total dissolved solids, Sodium or Chlorides are also not reported. All these things are monitored closely to keep the formation of mono-Chloramine on track and not wind up with only Chlorine and Ammonia down stream. But to say it again, water companies don't purchase and add a compound called Chloramine to our water supply. Charles H >Hi Charles, > > That is worrying to think it could be there without us knowing, I'm no >expert at this & please correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that water >companies will add chlorine or chloramine but not both? The detailed area >water quality report should include chlorine [it does in mine anyway] so >that should answer it. If you cannot see chlorine on the list then that is >the time to call them about it. My local report shows very many chemicals >[including chlorine] & minerals but no ammonia whatsoever. -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51822	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 7/31/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs

That's interesting-there is a similar rule-of-thumb that I've heard of with Goldfish & Koi that an odd number of fish is preferable to even & this may well be something to do with aggression as well. Can anyone say why all this is so? John*<o)))<* On 31 July 2011 17:03, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > ** > > > Can you remember if the problem groups were an odd number of fish, or an > even number. I seem to recall reading somewhere that odd numbered schools or > shoals of aggressive fish were less aggressive than even numbered groups. > > \\Steve// > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ken Roy > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:24 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Compatibility of Tiger Barbs > > For last over 35 years, I have been keeping Tiger Barbs in different > community tanks. I have noticed that some groups of Tiger Barbs do not nip > the fins of other slow moving species but some groups are very aggressive > and I have to change them. I would like to have some in-put from others who > > have same expereince. > Ken Roy > Lahore, Pakistan > www.kendensar.info > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51823	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs

To my knowledge, there is no scientific data with respect to even or odd numbers for groups of shoaling fish, but there is one scientific study (I believe the only one to date) proving that aggression in shoaling fish can be increased by being in too small a group. This study was reported by PFK magazine earlier this year [sorry, I can't find the link at the moment]. The results showed that the fewer fish in a group, the more likely aggressive behaviour would occur. Similar findings occur with space; if a species is maintained in a small (to the fish) tank, again increased aggression occurs. It seems this is the fishes' way of handling frustration in both cases, the only way they can--lash out at others. Not surprising, when one considers other animals do much the same when frustrated. Most recommend characins and cyprinids (which are shoaling fish) be kept in groups no less than 6, but all agree that the more the better for any species, simply because it is more natural. These fish live in shoals of hundreds in their respective habitat. Tiger Barb are particularly feisty by nature, so this aggression is even higher than it would be with cherry barb for example. Most sources recommend 8 as the absolute minimum for Tigers, and this group in a 30g minimum tank without any other fish is the smallest it should ever be. The fish will naturally nip within the group, but fin nipping is usually (though not always) confined to the group and minimal with 8 or more fish and in sufficient space. Even so, sedate fish or those with flowing fins should never be housed with Tigers, the temptation is too great. We cannot change what nature has programmed into a fish species. As proven by the afore-mentioned study, even "peaceful" fish such as neons were found to become aggressive and nippy when kept in small tanks or in less than 5. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@...> wrote: > > Can you remember if the problem groups were an odd number of fish, or an even number. I seem to recall reading somewhere that odd numbered schools or shoals of aggressive fish were less aggressive than even numbered groups. > > \\Steve// > > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Roy > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:24 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Compatibility of Tiger Barbs > > For last over 35 years, I have been keeping Tiger Barbs in different > community tanks. I have noticed that some groups of Tiger Barbs do not nip > the fins of other slow moving species but some groups are very aggressive > and I have to change them. I would like to have some in-put from others who > have same expereince. > Ken Roy > Lahore, Pakistan > www.kendensar.info >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51824	From: cobra427lady	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area

Any advice on the best places to go for aquatic plants in the San Jose area? Dolphin Pet Village is the only place I have been to & I love their selection but would like to see other places, too - any recommendations? Thanks tons in advance!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51825	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Aquarium TV Show

Did someone post this already? Looks cool. http://animal.discovery.com/tv/tanked/ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51826	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area

You might try SFAAPS aquatic plant society. Not a store but I know people there can direct you. I mostly know East Bay and some S F stores. Justin at Ocean Aquarium on Cedar is a must see if you can get there. so is Aqua Forest in Japan town. For East Bay check out Albany Aquarium on San Pablo within walking distance of BART. I almost forgot that Diana from the SVAS is supposed to open a store in the San Jose area. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: clare@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 2:39 pm Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area Any advice on the best places to go for aquatic plants in the San Jose area? Dolphin Pet Village is the only place I have been to & I love their selection but would like to see other places, too - any recommendations? 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51827	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: A few snail questions

I have the solution to why your apple snails are dying...they are starving to death. Six of them will eat one entire lettuce leaf a day. I break it up and in hours it is gone. If  you keep the water about an inch down from the top of the aquarium, they can lay clusters of eggs. They are both sexes so do not need to breed. I have had as many as 80 brands new babies. They are pink clusters on the glass. They dry out and the new babies fall into the water. Of course I don't have any fish to eat them. But they can hatch twice in one year. IN some states they are forbidden to be sold. I am interested in your other snails, especially the ones that you say are grey. I would like you to send me a few in a baggies and possibly put that in a rolaids tin so they  don't get crushed. I also used to have the cone snails and would like some again. The little round snails are just a plain pain...... produce like crazy. and little guppies don't eat them. Hope this helps everyone a little. If anymore questions let me know, more than happy to reply. Nancy/Pa. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51828	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/1/2011
Subject: Re: Male to Female Ratio

>It is normally a good idea to have more females than males, >particularly with livebearers, to remove the stress of being >constantly harassed by the males. > >Of course, if you really want to have some fun, there is a small >group of a few species of livebearers not often seen commercially >that are either left handed or right handed breeders and need to >match up properly to have any success with them <g>. > >\\Steve// Even though the males are right and left handed, as are the females, the males turn upside down and make it work. Putting the opposite sided together still gets the female fertilized. Saw it in a report on Jenynsiinae and it works. Charles H

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51829	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/2/2011
Subject: Re: Compatibility of Tiger Barbs

Very well said Byron, I agree completely with all of your info here. :-) The only thing I would like to add is that there is also individual personality that plays a small role in aggressive behavior as well. The info about the neons in small groups or cramped space is very accurate, and they can do a lot of damage to other fish (fin nipping) in a short period of time, regardless of how large the other fish are. (I have seen them shred fins of angelfish in a matter of a few days) However, not all neons are fin nippers, even if kept singly or in small groups with other long finned fishes in the same tank. This applies to tiger barbs as well. The bigger and more decorated the tank the easier it is to make something like that work. In regards to the odd/even numbers, this can make a difference if the group of fish is too small, say 3 vs 4 fish, most especially if 2 of the fish are male/female and begin to spawn. Some species this is a more prominent problem than others, such as angelfish and most other cichlids. In a case of 3 fish instead of 4, a pair would leave an odd one out, which will quickly become the bullied fish. A 4th fish can help to keep aggression levels much lower scale. But, increase the numbers beyond 6 and the odd/even factor lessens as the number of fish increases. When it comes to barbs, tetras, and various other fishes with egg scattering spawning habits, this is less of an issue, but falls back to individual personality traits, and as you pointed out, frustration and lack of an outlet for it as well as battles for territory. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "amphibian_ca" <bhosking@...> wrote: > > To my knowledge, there is no scientific data with respect to even or odd numbers for groups of shoaling fish, but there is one scientific study (I believe the only one to date) proving that aggression in shoaling fish can be increased by being in too small a group. This study was reported by PFK magazine earlier this year [sorry, I can't find the link at the moment]. The results showed that the fewer fish in a group, the more likely aggressive behaviour would occur. Similar findings occur with space; if a species is maintained in a small (to the fish) tank, again increased aggression occurs. It seems this is the fishes' way of handling frustration in both cases, the only way they can--lash out at others. Not surprising, when one considers other animals do much the same when frustrated. > > Most recommend characins and cyprinids (which are shoaling fish) be kept in groups no less than 6, but all agree that the more the better for any species, simply because it is more natural. These fish live in shoals of hundreds in their respective habitat. > > Tiger Barb are particularly feisty by nature, so this aggression is even higher than it would be with cherry barb for example. Most sources recommend 8 as the absolute minimum for Tigers, and this group in a 30g minimum tank without any other fish is the smallest it should ever be. The fish will naturally nip within the group, but fin nipping is usually (though not always) confined to the group and minimal with 8 or more fish and in sufficient space. Even so, sedate fish or those with flowing fins should never be housed with Tigers, the temptation is too great. We cannot change what nature has programmed into a fish species. > > As proven by the afore-mentioned study, even "peaceful" fish such as neons were found to become aggressive and nippy when kept in small tanks or in less than 5. > > Byron. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Steve Szabo <steve@> wrote: > > > > Can you remember if the problem groups were an odd number of fish, or an even number. I seem to recall reading somewhere that odd numbered schools or shoals of aggressive fish were less aggressive than even numbered groups. > > > > \\Steve// > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Roy > > Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 11:24 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Compatibility of Tiger Barbs > > > > For last over 35 years, I have been keeping Tiger Barbs in different > > community tanks. I have noticed that some groups of Tiger Barbs do not nip > > the fins of other slow moving species but some groups are very aggressive > > and I have to change them. I would like to have some in-put from others who > > have same expereince. > > Ken Roy > > Lahore, Pakistan > > www.kendensar.info > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51830	From: cobra427lady	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area

Thanks, Mike - found a couple of places up in SF to go see & will keep an eye open for news of Diana's opening - looking forward to it. Thanks for responding! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Deenerz@... wrote: > > You might try SFAAPS aquatic plant society. Not a store but I know people there can direct you. I mostly know East Bay and some S F stores. Justin at Ocean Aquarium on Cedar is a must see if you can get there. so is Aqua Forest in Japan town. For East Bay check out Albany Aquarium on San Pablo within walking distance of BART. I almost forgot that Diana from the SVAS is supposed to open a store in the San Jose area. > -Mike G > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: clare@... > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Mon, Aug 1, 2011 2:39 pm > Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquatic Plants in the Bay Area > > > > Any advice on the best places to go for aquatic plants in the San Jose area? > > Dolphin Pet Village is the only place I have been to & I love their selection but would like to see other places, too - any recommendations? > > Thanks tons in advance! > > > > #AOLMsgPart_2_3a41bec4-f635-466e-998a-bd361b5656d1 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_3a41bec4-f635-466e-998a-bd361b5656d1 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_3a41bec4-f635-466e-998a-bd361b5656d1 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_3a41bec4-f635-466e-998a-bd361b5656d1 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51831	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

Charles-maybe my local water company [Severn-Trent] is an exception & I'm lucky but the detailed report I get for my area includes many of those which things yours omits like ammonia, nitrates, pH, hardness & dissolved solids plus many more. John*<o)))<* On 31 July 2011 18:30, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > ** > > > The water departments have an obligation to test for and report the > active Chlorine in the tap water. That does not say if it is bound to > Ammonium or not. It isn't always a part of the report. The Missouri > American Water report for St. Louis, County and St Charles contains a > report of Chloramines and the level reported for water leaving their > Treatment Facility is 2.4 ppm. Field samples report 2.7 ppm. > Important information such as Phosphates, Nitrates, Ammonia, pH, > Alkanity and hardness are not reported. Total dissolved solids, > Sodium or Chlorides are also not reported. All these things are > monitored closely to keep the formation of mono-Chloramine on track > and not wind up with only Chlorine and Ammonia down stream. > > But to say it again, water companies don't purchase and add a > compound called Chloramine to our water supply. > > Charles H > > >Hi Charles, > > > > That is worrying to think it could be there without us knowing, I'm no > >expert at this & please correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that > water > >companies will add chlorine or chloramine but not both? The detailed area > >water quality report should include chlorine [it does in mine anyway] so > >that should answer it. If you cannot see chlorine on the list then that is > >the time to call them about it. My local report shows very many chemicals > >[including chlorine] & minerals but no ammonia whatsoever. > > -- > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51832	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/3/2011
Subject: Re: Excerpt: Fundamentals and control of nitrification in chloramina

>Charles-maybe my local water company [Severn-Trent] is an exception & I'm >lucky but the detailed report I get for my area includes many of those which >things yours omits like ammonia, nitrates, pH, hardness & dissolved solids >plus many more. > > John*<o)))<* Yes, it is good to see the water depts. reporting the most useful information rather than just defending themselves with the trace elements and compounds that have to be tested and reported. Spread the word! Charles H > >On 31 July 2011 18:30, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > >> ** >> >> >> The water departments have an obligation to test for and report the >> active Chlorine in the tap water. That does not say if it is bound to >> Ammonium or not. It isn't always a part of the report. The Missouri >> American Water report for St. Louis, County and St Charles contains a >> report of Chloramines and the level reported for water leaving their >> Treatment Facility is 2.4 ppm. Field samples report 2.7 ppm. >> Important information such as Phosphates, Nitrates, Ammonia, pH, >> Alkanity and hardness are not reported. Total dissolved solids, >> Sodium or Chlorides are also not reported. All these things are >> monitored closely to keep the formation of mono-Chloramine on track >> and not wind up with only Chlorine and Ammonia down stream. >> >> But to say it again, water companies don't purchase and add a >> compound called Chloramine to our water supply. >> >> Charles H >> >> >Hi Charles, >> > >> > That is worrying to think it could be there without us knowing, I'm no >> >expert at this & please correct me if I'm wrong but I understand that >> water >> >companies will add chlorine or chloramine but not both? The detailed area >> >water quality report should include chlorine [it does in mine anyway] so >> >that should answer it. If you cannot see chlorine on the list then that is >> >the time to call them about it. My local report shows very many chemicals >> >[including chlorine] & minerals but no ammonia whatsoever. >> >> -- >> I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines >> to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ¥Ø` .½½.><((((†>. ¥Ø` .½½. ¥Ø` .½><((((†> ½. ¥Ø` .½. , . ¥Ø` ..><((((†> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all >TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if >CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message >MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject >(was re: old subject)" <- ><†((((><. ¥Ø` .½½. ¥Ø` .½<†((((><½. ¥Ø` .½. , . ¥Ø` ..<†((((>< ¥Ø` .½½. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My >Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 >posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for >the No E-Mail option where you will still be >able to read messages on the group and post >replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51833	From: Jade	Date: 8/4/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

Renate - Yeah I've noticed since the surge in algae my wisteria have been growing faster than usual, so it could well be fertilizer run-off. The convict can't get anywhere near the fry as the parents are VERY protective and are constantly snatching errant fry into their mouths and spitting them out back where they belong (Which might I add is HILARIOUS to watch) and the convict is kept to his own spot of the tank. There was only one fish store around here that would take them in and they closed down, I've been doing a lot of asking around to no avail. I may put an add on craigslist for selling the fry once they're big enough. A part of the problem with upgrading tank size is the increase in electricity usage - while small, effects the bill greatly and as I am living under my parent's roof free of charge, I have to mind my utility consumption as much as I can. Also don't have anything to haul any sort of unboxed furniture in - not even entirely sure I could manage a tank larger than 30-40 gal. The only friend with a truck that I have is constantly busy so getting his assistance with the matter would be... difficult, to say the least. I'll be moving at some point within the next year or so and will inherit a 55 Gallon once there, and will be getting a larger tank as well, and probably use my current for fry; and plan on getting another 20 gallon to use as a hospital tank to isolate ill or new fish for awhile until I'm sure they're safe to move into a bigger, populated tank. As to the plants; I've always had trouble finding Jade that is large enough for the leaves to be out of the water, which is a pity as Jade is one of my favorite plants =( And anywhere I've found one it's horribly expensive. Most other plants I also have problems getting some large enough to have leaves out of the water =\ green thumb with houseplants I have not! haha. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > It sounds like you've really done your homework and are taking great care of your tank. I think with my tanks there are seasons where the tap water parameters change - fertilizer runoff or something, and it makes the algae grow, then other seasons it all dies off on its own again. Right now staghorn algae is taking over my shrimp tank but the baby shrimp love it so I decided to let it. Two other tanks that had serious algae problems are getting stable again and in one the plants are growing like mad all of a sudden where before there was algae on their leaves that was killing them all. In that one I had to remove a lot of fish to bring the load down, but I'm not sure if that's what did the trick. > > Try thrift stores for stands, a lot of them have furniture that is strong enough to hold an aquarium with the added bonus they often have storage and are more attractive than what the pet stores sell for a very small proportion of the price. Craigslist often has tanks (unfortunately around here people seem to think they DON'T depreciate in value, at all, from brand new) and www.freecycle.org often has tanks that come up for free (how I got my 55 gallon, with stand, filters, hood, lights, and even some decorations - I just had to be able to remove it for them!) > > If there are any owner-operated local pet stores (as opposed to the big chains like PetCo or PetSmart) they'll often happily accept donated fish but they usually want them to be salable size. But I imagine your convict may decimate any fry that manage to hatch. We have one store that will take any salable sized fish from us as a donation, and two more that actually pay us for fish, in cash. Even the one that takes them as a donation will often give us some free crickets for our lizard if it's been a good day. > > For plants, you can use a lot of houseplants as emergent plants, like pothos, ivy, jade, wandering Jew, ficus. They just want the stem in the water and the leaves out of the water. In my tanks they usually root very quickly and if they grow too big I'll pot them up and put in another cutting. Friends, moms, & grandmothers are often happy to give you a piece of their houseplant next time they get too big. And anyone who actually has java fern, vallisneria, or any of a number of aquatic plants is constantly trimming them so they don't take over the tank and would probably also happily give them to you rather than throw them away. The trick is finding them, but a want ad on Craigslist might help with that too. That's how I got my first bristlenose plecos - I put a want ad on craigslist and found a local fellow who had some that were breeding. > > Regards, > > Renate H. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > Hokay where to start. Um. Well, lighting - I have a 8,500k daylight bulb. The algae turns into powdery type suchstuff when I touch it. I do have plants yes, I have several well-growing water wisteria, some java fern, and some plant I can't recall the name of, as well as a now sprouting dwarf lily bulb. As for adding more plants, I'm slowly working on that but sadly, funds aren't quite available beyond what upkeep is already necessary. > > > > I'll increase my water change for sure. I use gravel vacs with every cleaning, but do not clean the entirety of the gravel at once, just sections in cycles so I don't upset the biological balance. > > > > On a side note. My male and female jewel cichlids have laid eggs. Does anyone know of anyone, or perhaps a store, in northwest Indiana (near Gary/Portage) that would take them in (or if a store take them in for free or trade) because I most definitely do not have space for them lol. > > > > I am going to be getting a new tank as soon as I possibly can. But again, funds prohibit this at the moment, as not only would I have to buy a new tank and hood/lights, but filter, heater, and stand as well as gravel. At this point unless someone shows up with a very large check for no reason whatsoever lol, patience is a necessity =\ > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51834	From: caroline cormier	Date: 8/4/2011
Subject: Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters

where do you live? you never know. we have a truck..etc. caroline ________________________________ From: Jade <ladyjadewindrunner@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, August 4, 2011 5:44:35 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: A question about my cichlid tank and algae eaters Renate - Yeah I've noticed since the surge in algae my wisteria have been growing faster than usual, so it could well be fertilizer run-off. The convict can't get anywhere near the fry as the parents are VERY protective and are constantly snatching errant fry into their mouths and spitting them out back where they belong (Which might I add is HILARIOUS to watch) and the convict is kept to his own spot of the tank. There was only one fish store around here that would take them in and they closed down, I've been doing a lot of asking around to no avail. I may put an add on craigslist for selling the fry once they're big enough. A part of the problem with upgrading tank size is the increase in electricity usage - while small, effects the bill greatly and as I am living under my parent's roof free of charge, I have to mind my utility consumption as much as I can. Also don't have anything to haul any sort of unboxed furniture in - not even entirely sure I could manage a tank larger than 30-40 gal. The only friend with a truck that I have is constantly busy so getting his assistance with the matter would be... difficult, to say the least. I'll be moving at some point within the next year or so and will inherit a 55 Gallon once there, and will be getting a larger tank as well, and probably use my current for fry; and plan on getting another 20 gallon to use as a hospital tank to isolate ill or new fish for awhile until I'm sure they're safe to move into a bigger, populated tank. As to the plants; I've always had trouble finding Jade that is large enough for the leaves to be out of the water, which is a pity as Jade is one of my favorite plants =( And anywhere I've found one it's horribly expensive. Most other plants I also have problems getting some large enough to have leaves out of the water =\ green thumb with houseplants I have not! haha. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > It sounds like you've really done your homework and are taking great care of >your tank. I think with my tanks there are seasons where the tap water >parameters change - fertilizer runoff or something, and it makes the algae grow, >then other seasons it all dies off on its own again. Right now staghorn algae >is taking over my shrimp tank but the baby shrimp love it so I decided to let >it. Two other tanks that had serious algae problems are getting stable again >and in one the plants are growing like mad all of a sudden where before there >was algae on their leaves that was killing them all. In that one I had to >remove a lot of fish to bring the load down, but I'm not sure if that's what did >the trick. > > Try thrift stores for stands, a lot of them have furniture that is strong >enough to hold an aquarium with the added bonus they often have storage and are >more attractive than what the pet stores sell for a very small proportion of the >price. Craigslist often has tanks (unfortunately around here people seem to >think they DON'T depreciate in value, at all, from brand new) and >www.freecycle.org often has tanks that come up for free (how I got my 55 gallon, >with stand, filters, hood, lights, and even some decorations - I just had to be >able to remove it for them!) > > If there are any owner-operated local pet stores (as opposed to the big chains >like PetCo or PetSmart) they'll often happily accept donated fish but they >usually want them to be salable size. But I imagine your convict may decimate >any fry that manage to hatch. We have one store that will take any salable >sized fish from us as a donation, and two more that actually pay us for fish, in >cash. Even the one that takes them as a donation will often give us some free >crickets for our lizard if it's been a good day. > > For plants, you can use a lot of houseplants as emergent plants, like pothos, >ivy, jade, wandering Jew, ficus. They just want the stem in the water and the >leaves out of the water. In my tanks they usually root very quickly and if they >grow too big I'll pot them up and put in another cutting. Friends, moms, & >grandmothers are often happy to give you a piece of their houseplant next time >they get too big. And anyone who actually has java fern, vallisneria, or any of >a number of aquatic plants is constantly trimming them so they don't take over >the tank and would probably also happily give them to you rather than throw them >away. The trick is finding them, but a want ad on Craigslist might help with >that too. That's how I got my first bristlenose plecos - I put a want ad on >craigslist and found a local fellow who had some that were breeding. > > Regards, > > Renate H. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Jade" <ladyjadewindrunner@> wrote: > > > > Hokay where to start. Um. Well, lighting - I have a 8,500k daylight bulb. The >algae turns into powdery type suchstuff when I touch it. I do have plants yes, I >have several well-growing water wisteria, some java fern, and some plant I can't >recall the name of, as well as a now sprouting dwarf lily bulb. As for adding >more plants, I'm slowly working on that but sadly, funds aren't quite available >beyond what upkeep is already necessary. > > > > I'll increase my water change for sure. I use gravel vacs with every >cleaning, but do not clean the entirety of the gravel at once, just sections in >cycles so I don't upset the biological balance. > > > > > On a side note. My male and female jewel cichlids have laid eggs. Does anyone >know of anyone, or perhaps a store, in northwest Indiana (near Gary/Portage) >that would take them in (or if a store take them in for free or trade) because I >most definitely do not have space for them lol. > > > > > I am going to be getting a new tank as soon as I possibly can. But again, >funds prohibit this at the moment, as not only would I have to buy a new tank >and hood/lights, but filter, heater, and stand as well as gravel. At this point >unless someone shows up with a very large check for no reason whatsoever lol, >patience is a necessity =\ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51835	From: mothermastiff	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?

I have two 30-gal tanks (a regular and a 30T) each with 4-6 young (quarter sized to half dollar sized) angelfish and a couple of emerald cory cats for cleanup. I had intended to get some fancy guppies for small size, color,and faster movement (and was meeting my guppy connection at the meeting), but was told at our aquarium society meeting last night that the guppies' tails will probably be too tempting to the angels, and the guppy guy said keep the guppies in a separate 10. So, based on your EXPERIENCE, what kinds of small fish WILL live comfortably with angels? I have a phobia against clear bright red, so neon tetras are out. But other than true red or yellow, I like color. The angels are: blue platinum bleeding hearts, and blue smokies. Both tanks are heavily planted, and kept at 80-82F, the well water is lovely and pH is 7.5. I love blue most of all, so fish that have a nice blue color (or bright orange for contrast) would be nice. Most of all, if there ARE small, pretty, midlevel and top range fish the angels won't bother and that won't bother the angels, that's what I would like to know about. The bottom is covered with the cory cats. Thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51836	From: haecklers	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?

We got our angelfish at pre-dime size and put them in with Endler's guppies. They got along fine and the angelfish ate all the fry but never bothered the parents until they wanted to start spawning. You can get some very pretty blue Endler's guppies. They don't have the big tails. I've also had 3 female bettas in my angelfish tank. They come in blue. They held their own against the angelfish at feeding time pretty well and all got along but I removed them when the angelfish spawned, too, to protect them. You can't always put female bettas in together, but I got lucky and they all got along. I read that angelfish eat neon tetras in the wild, so anything that is about that size and coloring might trigger their instincts. I read the harlequin tetras do nicely with angelfish, and rummynose tetras would look really nice with all the plants. I've also read of some people keeping some rainbowfish in with them. BUT - your angelfish will outgrow your tanks before too long! In 9 months mine became really big, at least 4" each. I sold off all but three then they had a love triangle so I had to get rid of the spare male as well so they wouldn't fight all the time. If you don't want them to breed you could try putting a couple males in one of your tanks and a couple females in the other, once you decide which are your favorites. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mothermastiff" <mother@...> wrote: > > I have two 30-gal tanks (a regular and a 30T) each with 4-6 young (quarter sized to half dollar sized) angelfish and a couple of emerald cory cats for cleanup. > > I had intended to get some fancy guppies for small size, color,and faster movement (and was meeting my guppy connection at the meeting), but was told at our aquarium society meeting last night that the guppies' tails will probably be too tempting to the angels, and the guppy guy said keep the guppies in a separate 10. > > So, based on your EXPERIENCE, what kinds of small fish WILL live comfortably with angels? I have a phobia against clear bright red, so neon tetras are out. But other than true red or yellow, I like color. > > The angels are: blue platinum bleeding hearts, and blue smokies. > > Both tanks are heavily planted, and kept at 80-82F, the well water is lovely and pH is 7.5. > > I love blue most of all, so fish that have a nice blue color (or bright orange for contrast) would be nice. > > Most of all, if there ARE small, pretty, midlevel and top range fish the angels won't bother and that won't bother the angels, that's what I would like to know about. The bottom is covered with the cory cats. > > Thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51837	From: Al Keep	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: tetra' ing

hey all. i have 7 neons and am thinking of getting a group of rummy nose tetras.... if they would school seperatly. two schools would look nice but if they mixed i think i would rather just get more neons... if those two would mix is there another tetra that wouldnt associate with my neons ? thanks folks.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51838	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Howdy

Howdy Y'all, I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the area. Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51839	From: Bill	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

Scott, I do recall responding to something to someone named scott... Ta hell if I can recall the topic!.. I'm trying to organize a "specie collection" trip here in the Richmond Va area.  We're lucky we have fresh, brackish and salt to explore.  I wouldn't have responded if it weren't for your last name... Bill McDonald p.s. Here is our local fish club.. www.aquaticfriendsunited@...  Drop in for a visit!  Bill Still ________________________________ From: Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 2:31 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Howdy   Howdy Y'all, I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the area. Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51840	From: john Lewis	Date: 8/5/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

Hello:    Welcome to the group.  I like going out and collecting occasionally also.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 2:31 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Howdy   Howdy Y'all, I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the area. Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51841	From: Bill	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: tetra' ing

I have schools of neons and Black Neon's that school separately.  Good looking look. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 5, 2011 11:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] tetra' ing   hey all. i have 7 neons and am thinking of getting a group of rummy nose tetras.... if they would school seperatly. two schools would look nice but if they mixed i think i would rather just get more neons... if those two would mix is there another tetra that wouldnt associate with my neons ? thanks folks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51842	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?

Angels naturally regard smaller fish as food, so bearing in mind their eventual size the tank occupants should be sufficiently sized not to fit in the adult angel's mouth. The disk-shaped characins tend to be better suited for this reason, plus they compliment the shape of the angelfish. Species in the Rosy Tetra clade of Hyphessobrycon are particularly good. There are about 30 species, including the Bentosi or Roberti Tetra, Rosy Tetra, Black and Red Phantom, etc. SOme of this clade, such as the Serpae, should be strictly avoided; the fins of the angels will almost certainly bring out the inherent trait of the Serpae to nip fins. Bleeding Heart Tetra are within this group, and I have heard from some aquarists that they will nip, so I pass that on. The more oval fish in Hemigrammus also work, such as the Garnet or Pretty Tetra (Hemigrammus pulcher). Black Skirt (Black Widow) should be avoided, they will nip. Rasbora that are from the medium/large sized species are fine. Avoid all danio and barb; both are too active for the sedate angelfish, and the latter may be nippy depending upon species. Hatchetfish work for the surface level, especially the larger silver species in Gasteropellicus; the marble (Carbegiella strigata) might be OK if they are in with the angels when young so they grow together, but the two other species in this genus (Carnegiella) are less suitable due to their tiny size. There is not much of any blue in these suggestions; that is a colour that seems to be more within the long, cigar-shaped fishes, and they are very often easy targets for the naturally-predatory angelfish. Some might suggest Emperor Tetra, but this is a fish to be avoided with angels and discus; males are very feisty and like to push their weight around. You will soon require larger quarters, a 55g (4-feet) is minimum for a group of 5-6 angels, as they attain 6 inches in length and 8+ inches top to bottom in fin span. Well planted, lots of branches to replicate their natural habitat (the vertical bar pattern on angelfish is camouflage, they remain within vertical sticks, branches, plants by nature. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "mothermastiff" <mother@...> wrote: > > I have two 30-gal tanks (a regular and a 30T) each with 4-6 young (quarter sized to half dollar sized) angelfish and a couple of emerald cory cats for cleanup. > > I had intended to get some fancy guppies for small size, color,and faster movement (and was meeting my guppy connection at the meeting), but was told at our aquarium society meeting last night that the guppies' tails will probably be too tempting to the angels, and the guppy guy said keep the guppies in a separate 10. > > So, based on your EXPERIENCE, what kinds of small fish WILL live comfortably with angels? I have a phobia against clear bright red, so neon tetras are out. But other than true red or yellow, I like color. > > The angels are: blue platinum bleeding hearts, and blue smokies. > > Both tanks are heavily planted, and kept at 80-82F, the well water is lovely and pH is 7.5. > > I love blue most of all, so fish that have a nice blue color (or bright orange for contrast) would be nice. > > Most of all, if there ARE small, pretty, midlevel and top range fish the angels won't bother and that won't bother the angels, that's what I would like to know about. The bottom is covered with the cory cats. > > Thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51843	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: tetra' ing

The rummynose tetra are about the best "shoaling" fish of the characins (tetra). They spend more time together in a group swimming about the tank than almost any other species, including cardinals. Rummys do best in soft slightly acidic water; in harder basic water they will not last as long, similar to cardinals, and usually are not as brightly coloured. The mineral causes internal problems for these soft water fish. Rasbora in the Trigonostigma genus (the Harlequin, Lambchop (Espei), Hengeli) are excellent shoaling fish. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hey all. > i have 7 neons and am thinking of getting a group of rummy nose tetras.... if they would school seperatly. two schools would look nice but if they mixed i think i would rather just get more neons... if those two would mix is there another tetra that wouldnt associate with my neons ? > thanks folks. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51844	From: Bill Z	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Dumb Question

How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? I've inherited some tanks that have snails in them and I am trying to figure out how much copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails without hurting the tropical fish. Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51845	From: Scott Holleman	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question

This might get you close.   Length (ft.) X Width (ft.) X Depth (ft.) X 7.5 = gallons   So like my 75 tank is 4 X 1.5 X 1.75(aproximately) X 7.5 = 78.75.  It isn't exact, but will be close.   Scott From: Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 1:19 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Dumb Question   How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? I've inherited some tanks that have snails in them and I am trying to figure out how much copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails without hurting the tropical fish. Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51846	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

Hi Scott, Thanks for posting those pictures are most interesting-I don't know much about marine fish so can you tell me what are the creatures in images 12 & 22 please? John*<o)))< * On 5 August 2011 19:31, Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> wrote: > ** > > > Howdy Y'all, > > I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the > area. > Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: > wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51847	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question

Hi Bill, If you Google 'Aquarium Calculator' you will get a lot of online converters, you simply put in your dimensions & you get the results in US or UK gallons. Be sure to measure the dimensions of just your actual volume of water rather than your tank size as this could affect the result, particularly in partially filled &/or tanks with thick sides. John*<o)))< * On 6 August 2011 19:19, Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > ** > > > > How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? > > I've inherited some tanks that have snails in > them and I am trying to figure out how much > copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails > without hurting the tropical fish. > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51848	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question

If you use inches... Length x width x height, then divide by 231= gallons The tank next to the bed here in inches is 48 x 13 x 19 / 231 = 51.234 gallons -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Aug 6, 2011 12:26 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dumb Question Hi Bill, If you Google 'Aquarium Calculator' you will get a lot of online converters, you simply put in your dimensions & you get the results in US or UK gallons. Be sure to measure the dimensions of just your actual volume of water rather than your tank size as this could affect the result, particularly in partially filled &/or tanks with thick sides. John*<o)))< * On 6 August 2011 19:19, Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > ** > > > > How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? > > I've inherited some tanks that have snails in > them and I am trying to figure out how much > copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails > without hurting the tropical fish. > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51849	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

I just joined and haven't posted pics yet. My tank has 6 zebra cichlids and two plecos, 6" and 14" Scott Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:19:07 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Howdy Hi Scott, Thanks for posting those pictures are most interesting-I don't know much about marine fish so can you tell me what are the creatures in images 12 & 22 please? John*<o)))< * On 5 August 2011 19:31, Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> wrote: > ** > > > Howdy Y'all, > > I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the > area. > Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: > wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51850	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question

Bill, I'll take those snails for my pond, if you trust that I'll pay you back for shiPping. Scott (in Houston) Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:26:43 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dumb Question Hi Bill, If you Google 'Aquarium Calculator' you will get a lot of online converters, you simply put in your dimensions & you get the results in US or UK gallons. Be sure to measure the dimensions of just your actual volume of water rather than your tank size as this could affect the result, particularly in partially filled &/or tanks with thick sides. John*<o)))< * On 6 August 2011 19:19, Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > ** > > > > How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? > > I've inherited some tanks that have snails in > them and I am trying to figure out how much > copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails > without hurting the tropical fish. > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51851	From: Bill	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Dumb Question

My local fish club has a link to the calculator for tank volume.  No need to join but your welcome to do so.  The site is www.aquaticfriendsunited at forumotion.com  Look for the link on the first page titled.  How big is your tank?  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2011 3:26 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Dumb Question   Hi Bill, If you Google 'Aquarium Calculator' you will get a lot of online converters, you simply put in your dimensions & you get the results in US or UK gallons. Be sure to measure the dimensions of just your actual volume of water rather than your tank size as this could affect the result, particularly in partially filled &/or tanks with thick sides. John*<o)))< * On 6 August 2011 19:19, Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > ** > > > > How can I figure out how many gals my tanks hold ? > > I've inherited some tanks that have snails in > them and I am trying to figure out how much > copper sulfate to add to kill-off the snails > without hurting the tropical fish. > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51852	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/6/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

I think there must be 2 Scotts on here! The newest photos on the forum were posted by Scott from Galveston who started this thread. John*<o)))< * On 6 August 2011 20:54, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > I just joined and haven't posted pics yet. My tank has 6 zebra cichlids and > two plecos, 6" and 14" > > Scott > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:19:07 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Howdy > > Hi Scott, > > Thanks for posting those pictures are most interesting-I don't know much > about marine fish so can you tell me what are the creatures in images 12 & > 22 please? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 5 August 2011 19:31, Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Howdy Y'all, > > > > I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the > > area. > > Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: > > wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51853	From: Scott	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy/ Into

Sorry to be confusing; it is odd that I live about 40 minutes from Galveston Island, though. I joined a few days ago because I've had a 75 gallon tank that came with a red eared slider turtle that I adopted last fall. The plecos and tons of guppies came with it, so I didn't have a lot of time to set it up. My filtration system is one I used for turtles, a canister filter (the Rena Filstar XP1 that came with it) hooked up to an UGF under about 3" in pea pebbles from Home Depot. The other end of the UGF has a powerhead on an uplift tube. After trying several types of fish, I bought 6 zebra cichlids and they have done well so far. But I still have questions here and there and very much a rookie at this sort of thing. Photos will be posted later; I'm a photograher and really swamped with school sports this month, so it might be a week or so. (Or whenever I don't feel burned out on taking photos!) Scott Deer Park, TX --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > I think there must be 2 Scotts on here! The newest photos on the forum were > posted by Scott from Galveston who started this thread. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 6 August 2011 20:54, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > > > I just joined and haven't posted pics yet. My tank has 6 zebra cichlids and > > two plecos, 6" and 14" > > > > Scott > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:19:07 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Howdy > > > > Hi Scott, > > > > Thanks for posting those pictures are most interesting-I don't know much > > about marine fish so can you tell me what are the creatures in images 12 & > > 22 please? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 5 August 2011 19:31, Scott McDonald <bamberggreenman@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Howdy Y'all, > > > > > > I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the > > > area. > > > Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: > > > wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51854	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: What fish are safe w/ young FW angels?

Hi Byron, Thanks for the great detail, I am saving this email for future reference! The angels will only stay in the small tanks till they pair up, then I will sell off the singles and I have another 30g for a third pair. If I get more than 3 pair, I will sell the surplus pairs also. That will enable me to keep them separate and comfortable. laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51855	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Fish Talk Radio Stations (Internet)

This has been such and interesting site and so much info. Thank you for posting. >________________________________ >From: Lenny V. aka GoldLenny <GoldLenny@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wednesday, June 2, 2010 9:15 AM >Subject: [AquaticLife] Fish Talk Radio Stations (Internet) > >As if we don't already have enough sources of information about our fish, I >thought I'd bring up the fish talk radio stations that are available over >the internet... something you can have playing in the background while >you're at work or busy reading and posting here at AquaticLife. ;-)  > >I'm pretty sure there are more stations besides those that I will be listing >below so let me know if you know of any others. > >http://www.bluezooradio.com/index.html - Blue Zoo Radio is live every Monday >evening at 8pm EST. The archives are available for immediate download to >your computer, iPod or Mp3 player OR you can stream them on your computer ON >Demand.  Archived downloads are available here... >http://www.sportstalkcleveland.com/bluezooradio/ > >There is also BlueZoo TV - http://bluezooradio.com/bluezootv.html >More segments on YouTube - http://www.youtube.com/user/bluezootv1 > >http://www.petfishtalk.com/ - Click here >http://serv.adspeed.com/ad.php?do=clk&aid=29130 every Wednesday between 1 >and 3 pm, Pacific Time, to hear the Pet Fish Talk Show live. Click here >http://www.petfishtalk.com/pages/tech_support.htm#listening if the first >link does not work for you. Click here >http://www.petfishtalk.com/pages/show_time.htm for more information about >the time of the show in your time zone.  Over 285 Pet Fish Talk Shows have >been recorded and are available 24/7 in the archive. Click here >http://www.petfishtalk.com/pages/pft_archive.htm to go to the archive. > >http://www.petfish.net/podcasts/ - This site doesn't appear to be producing >new shows but have their archived shows from 2007 and 2008. > >NOTICE and Caveat emptor... or would that be Caveat auditor???  - As usual, >remember that many of these programs are supported by advertisers so their >products may be *pushed*, which may or may not always be the best thing for >our aquariums... IMO. > >On a side note... does anybody know of a good/reliable English to Latin >translation website?  I usually use Google Translator (which doesn't have >Latin as an option) or http://www.stars21.com/translator/ which has the >largest translator database that I've found on the net BUT when I use their >English to Latin translator, I got some unexpected returns.  For example, >"Let the buyer beware" commonly known as "Caveat emptor" was translated to >"permissum buyer caveo" and the reverse translation of "Caveat emptor" from >Latin to English returned "hollow place a buying" since "caveat" appears to >be "cave" or "hollow place" in Latin.  I'm not sure why or how "Caveat >emptor" became "Let the buyer beware" but I'm guessing it goes back to >caveman days... or perhaps if you're shopping in Bin Laden's neighborhood. >LOL > >Lenny Vasbinder >Fish Blog - http://GoldLenny.blogspot.com >(Links to any articles referenced in above reply are listed on the right >side, alphabetically under Labels and also under Archives by Year, Month) > > > >------------------------------------ > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51856	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy

Scartella cristata- Molly Miller Blenny Histrio histrio- Sargassum Anglerfish I'll post names now that the pics are up. Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51857	From: Scott McDonald	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Re: Howdy/ Into

I've two tanks running at the moment. My fwt has a couple adult Oscars,a Parauchenipterus galeatus,Oxydoras niger,and a Pseudopimelodus bufonius. It had other cats, but the bumblebee and wood ate them. My swt has local stuff, some unusual-some common. ATM: Trying to plankton net some larval fish/corals of things that accidentally disperse here. I can go into filtration/lighting of each later Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android From: Scott ; To: ; Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Howdy/ Into Sent: Sun, Aug 7, 2011 12:57:54 PM   Sorry to be confusing; it is odd that I live about 40 minutes from Galveston Island, though. I joined a few days ago because I've had a 75 gallon tank that came with a red eared slider turtle that I adopted last fall. The plecos and tons of guppies came with it, so I didn't have a lot of time to set it up. My filtration system is one I used for turtles, a canister filter (the Rena Filstar XP1 that came with it) hooked up to an UGF under about 3" in pea pebbles from Home Depot. The other end of the UGF has a powerhead on an uplift tube. After trying several types of fish, I bought 6 zebra cichlids and they have done well so far. But I still have questions here and there and very much a rookie at this sort of thing. Photos will be posted later; I'm a photograher and really swamped with school sports this month, so it might be a week or so. (Or whenever I don't feel burned out on taking photos!) Scott Deer Park, TX --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > I think there must be 2 Scotts on here! The newest photos on the forum were > posted by Scott from Galveston who started this thread. > > John*< > > * > On 6 August 2011 20:54, wrote: > > > I just joined and haven't posted pics yet. My tank has 6 zebra cichlids and > > two plecos, 6" and 14" > > > > Scott > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 20:19:07 > > To: > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Howdy > > > > Hi Scott, > > > > Thanks for posting those pictures are most interesting-I don't know much > > about marine fish so can you tell me what are the creatures in images 12 & > > 22 please? > > > > John*< > > > > * > > On 5 August 2011 19:31, Scott McDonald wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Howdy Y'all, > > > > > > I live near Galveston,TX and collect unusual marine fish/inverts from the > > > area. > > > Looking for other like-minded individuals who aren't afraid of getting: > > > wet, sandy, muddy, wind and/or sunburnt. > > > > > > Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51858	From: kwondrash	Date: 8/7/2011
Subject: Freshwater flounders?

Hi--wondering what I could hear about small freshwater flounders I've seen recently at our local fish store. Only about 2" long, true flat flounder form, black/white speckled in color. Has anyone kept these with success? They look really interesting but I'd like to know more berfore I think of purchasing one. Info is appreicated!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51859	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Freshwater flounders?

Hi Kwondrash, There are many species of flounders found throughout the world. While there are some species that are stricktly freshwater fishes, not all of the species sold as "freshwater flounders" are true fresh water fishes -- some need to be kept in brackish water conditions. It would be best if you could supply the name of the species being sold in your lfs. They are usually good eaters and require a fair amount of food, which is often impossible when trying to compete with more aggressive species; they often end up starving because of this. Most prefer live foods too. They shouldn't be kept with catfish as those fish will outcompete the flounders. If these flounders need to be kept in brackish water, this would preclude your keeping catfish anyway. When in doubt as to the species, house them in water with a specific gravity of 1.005, which will not be too high for many freshwater species, yet still just high enough for brackish water species, but you wouldn't be able to keep plants in this tank. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > > Hi--wondering what I could hear about small freshwater flounders I've seen recently at our local fish store. Only about 2" long, true flat flounder form, black/white speckled in color. > Has anyone kept these with success? They look really interesting but I'd like to know more berfore I think of purchasing one. Info is appreicated!! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51860	From: haecklers	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Angels spawned again

I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51861	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Trouble setting up bubble wall

For my 24x24x12 30g tank, I got a 24" long porous positionable tube (with n inline clear plastic gizmo to prevent the water backing up) meant to turn the back wall of the tank into a wall of bubbles. I could not afford a new air pump, but was given a used Whisper 500 from a turtle tank (it had been put back in the original box), that seemed to work fine with an ordinary air stone. So, I hooked it up. When no bubbles came out, I realized that it was not kind to provide no directions as to which direction the little anti-backflow device should be pointing. When I had it pointing so that bubbles WOULD come out, they only came out of the three inches (out of 24!) that were near the surface. There is a dial on top of the Whisper 500, but moving the dial seemed to make no difference at all in bubble output. This is not enough bubbles! How come it isn't working for me? Surely these bubble wands should work even at the bottoms of deep tanks. Heck, I have SEEN them everywhere. I was going to get another used pump from my friend who bought the used turtle tank, there are two other air pumps too noisy for her, that I could probably put up with in order to provide aeration for the fish. But I need help troubleshooting this one, before I try to set up the 30" long one for the regular 30g tank. How can I tell if it is simply not enough air pressure from the pump, or a defective bubble wand? laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51862	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

R, You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51863	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Should have read -- "the LEAF or the slate" --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > R, > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51864	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   R, You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51865	From: Ray	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > R, > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51866	From: haecklers	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray, Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) - Renate

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51867	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > R, > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51868	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall

Hi Laurie, That you only got air coming out of 3 holes in the wand would suggest that you need a more powerful air pump to run the bubble wand properly or you might just need to replace the rubber diaphragm, especially as this is a used air pump & the original one may be worn out & leaking air so not performing to it's full potential. The air pump may well work a small airstone with a good stream of bubbles as there will be a good deal of pressure forcing them out. However, if you try to put the same amount of air into a much larger area such as a 2 foot wand then the pressure will be far less & you will only get a few bubbles. Also the deeper the airstone &/or the longer your airline then you will need far more power from an air pump to run them. Does your pump have 2 outlets? if so then use a 'T' section connector & run both outlets into one line for your bubble wand. Something else worth considering-those one way valves have [in my limited experience] often restricted the flow of air so unless your air pump is below the level of your water then you don't need it-try it without & see what happens. Hope these ideas are some use for you. John*<o)))< * On 8 August 2011 19:03, laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...>wrote: > ** > > > For my 24x24x12 30g tank, I got a 24" long porous positionable tube > (with n inline clear plastic gizmo to prevent the water backing up) > meant to turn the back wall of the tank into a wall of bubbles. > > I could not afford a new air pump, but was given a used Whisper 500 > from a turtle tank (it had been put back in the original box), that > seemed to work fine with an ordinary air stone. > > So, I hooked it up. When no bubbles came out, I realized that it was > not kind to provide no directions as to which direction the little > anti-backflow device should be pointing. > > When I had it pointing so that bubbles WOULD come out, they only came > out of the three inches (out of 24!) that were near the surface. > There is a dial on top of the Whisper 500, but moving the dial seemed > to make no difference at all in bubble output. > > This is not enough bubbles! How come it isn't working for me? Surely > these bubble wands should work even at the bottoms of deep tanks. > Heck, I have SEEN them everywhere. > > I was going to get another used pump from my friend who bought the > used turtle tank, there are two other air pumps too noisy for her, > that I could probably put up with in order to provide aeration for the > fish. > > But I need help troubleshooting this one, before I try to set up the > 30" long one for the regular 30g tank. How can I tell if it is simply > not enough air pressure from the pump, or a defective bubble wand? > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51869	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Heck... I'll pay shipping from West Chester to Richmond..I just (a month or so ago) got into Africans.  Malawi to start.   I'm keeping 10 Maingosi's, 10 Demonsonia's, 6 Brichardi's, and 16 (8 being reared for a friend) Nicholsi's. They currently occupy a 55G and a pair of 29's and will soon be moving into a 75G.  Well..not sure about the Brichardi's...  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Ray, Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) - Renate [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51870	From: Bill	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).   Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Bill <williemcd@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > R, > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51871	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Congratulations Bill-how exciting! John*<o)))<* On 9 August 2011 00:03, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent > it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a > foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The > parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma > (Sarah) and poppa (Spike). Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. > I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 > hrs approx. But.. if they are still translucent that means they were > fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill > in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not > in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's > outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of > them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the > slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having > translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the > third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. > Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the > temperature. Lots of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady > friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning > site. Â It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. Â They > have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... > (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is > THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have > influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have > looked this viable after 48+ hrs? Â They are still translucent and hoping to > see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? Â Any input on my perceptions? Â 1st > time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > Â > > R, > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents > used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want > to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred > instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many > more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for > starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant > leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching > without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the > eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, > they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads > which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way > it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing > except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The > encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen > supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, > either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by > Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal > for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping > eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow > fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them > one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have > learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what > yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the > water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to > fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to > be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place > after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt > would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and > by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and > a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll > keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a > good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus > Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what > happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they > kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that > spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water > changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51872	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Hi Bill, First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's still too soon for them to hatch. Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >  > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > R, > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51873	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, Glad to see you're also into African Cichlids, but they require a lot of attention to their needs since their aggression must be taken into account when housing them. You should also know, that the various species may interbreed, especially the closer they are related -- although even more distantly related species will interbreed. For this reason, you may not want to house all of them in one tank. To begin with though, your 42 fish are WAY too many for a 75 gallon tank. You will be WAY overcrowded. I need to assume that presently, all of these fish are juveniles -- possibly not even half-grown. You need to consider their eventual full mature size when determining the bioload of their tank. Unless you plan on adding even more tanks than you're going to need with your present compliment of fishes, I would suggest dismissing the idea of obtaining more, regardless that they're free. Now, getting back to the species you presently have on hand -- while my purpose isn't to nit-pick, you should learn the proper names of these fish to enable others to know which species you have. Additionally, while some of these shortened names are fairly widely recognized in verbal discussion, when writing about any species it's always helpful to include the genus name, for others to more easily understand which fishes you're talking about. I can guess your "Maingosi's" are actually Melanochromis cyaneorhabdos Maingano, your "Demonsonia" are actually Pseudotropheus demasoni and your "Nicholsi" are actually Pseudocrenilabrus nicholsi -- but your "Brichardi" still leave me puzzled as there are at least 3 Rift Lake Cichlids (Lake Tanganyika Cichlids) with the species name of "brichardi;" Tropheus brichardi, Neolamprologus brichardi and Challochromis brichardi -- and one West Africa Cichlid known as Teleogramma brichardi. As Neolamprologus brichardi is the most common of the three Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, I could narrow it down to N. brichardi even if I'm not quite certain. I see you don't have all Rift Lake Cichlids though, as your Ps. nicholsi is a Lake Victoria Cichlid, so you may still have T. brichardi from West Africa (from the Congo River) for all I know. BTW, when mature, of your four species, only N. brichardi is suitable for a 29 gallon tank -- and then you may need to watch them, when they pair up. Of all of the other species, including the Ps. nicholsi -- even though this is a smaller Cichlid -- each could use a 75 gallon tank to themselves. While all except N. brichardi (if this is what you have) are quite aggressive, Ps. nicholsi is extremely aggressive for such a small fish; you may use the 55 gallon though, for them alone, provided you supply them with lots of rockwork for hideouts. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Heck... I'll pay shipping from West Chester to Richmond..I just (a month or so ago) got into Africans.  Malawi to start.  I'm keeping 10 Maingosi's, 10 Demonsonia's, 6 Brichardi's, and 16 (8 being reared for a friend) Nicholsi's. They currently occupy a 55G and a pair of 29's and will soon be moving into a 75G.  Well..not sure about the Brichardi's... > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >  > Ray, > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > - Renate > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51874	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >  > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > R, > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51875	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall

>>might just need to replace the rubber diaphragm, especially as this is a used air pump & the original one may be worn out & leaking air so not performing to it's full potential. Ooh, that does not sound like an expensive part, would it be hard to find? My Whisper 500 Second Nature air pump has a dial, but it does not vary the amount of air produced, so clearly something is broken. I know Whisper is a very COMMON brand, is it possible to find replacement rubber diaphragms, and an illustration of how to replace one? For the 24" depth, and the consequent large amount of tubing needed to get to the tank, up the side, and all the way to the bottom, if I were to look for another pump, how many gallons of water should the pump be intended for, in order to reliably give me 24" of bubbles, 24" down? laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51876	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Hi Renate, So, I see you do use slates, as I seemed to remember your mentioning a while back (but wasn't sure). I hope you saw that part of my last reply, where I told you to turn the slate around when transferring it to a rearing tank, so that the eggs are facing the tank side which the slate is leaning on. This will permit the hatching fry to be suspended away from any fungused material on the slate's surface. As for your Cory's being the egg-eating culprits, I really can't say as I don't know how many Cory's you have. Generally though, a protective Angelfish pair should be able to keep a few Cory's away from their spawn if they want to be diligent enough at it -- and most Angel pairs are quite protective of their eggs. I understand what you're saying however, in that the are very sound sleepers < g >. But, this does not preclude the possibility that it still may be at least one of the pair that eats the eggs, at least initially (with the other possibly joining in after it sees it's fruitless to protect them further). Quite often, uninitiated Angelfish pairs not yet having learned how to fully care for their spawn -- or not being as "conscious" or "attentive" of what's going on will loss track of exactly what they are doing after a night in darkness. Some pairs, when in near or total darkness at night, will experience an interruption of their spawning/rearing behavior sequence because of being deprived of the visual stimulus of seeing their eggs for this extended period of time. The result is, that they lose some of their protect instinct behavior of their spawn when interrupted as so. With only a loose care behavior now in place, one or the other (or both) the appetizing appearance of their eggs overwhelms any residual protective instinct that may remain, causing ("allowing") them to eat the eggs. If you hadn't turned the slate around when you moved it to the other tank, that's mistake # 1 (please learn from it). That you did not keep a NIGHT LIGHT on when the Angels are in their spawning/rearing sequence is mistake #2 -- please heed this suggestion also. Whenever otherwise unreliable Angelfish pairs have eggs (or fry), a night light must be kept on until dawn, so that the pair's attention to the eggs is never diminished or temporarily totally eliminated for 8 or 10 hours. This night light needs only to be a small table lamp on the other side of the room, but it must be present. Most egg-eating Angelfish pairs devour their eggs at first light the next morning, after a night in darkness, when the room just starts brightening up from the ambient light of day-break. When troublesome (egg-eating-prone) Angelfish pairs are protecting a spawn of eggs, their tank light should not be turned on, as this is like putting a spotlight on a plate of caviar; it gets tempting. The glaring stimulus of the very (too) brightly lit eggs sometimes overwhelms their innate (but already somewhat diminished in many domestic Angelfish) protective care behavior, again, promoting them to eat their eggs. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Ray, > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > - Renate >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51877	From: haecklers	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

We did have a light on - exactly as you said - a lamp on the other side of the room. It's one of those desk lamps and we directed the light toward the tank (but the slate was facing away from the light so the eggs were in the shadow). In the morning when I went in, the male was on the other side of the tank (where the female sends him as punishment - I think - LOL!). Even with the night light on, they go into a comatose sleep at night. You can do anything in the tank and they stay just hovering there, not responsive. Is that normal or are my fish weird?? I do think you're right, tho, that the eggs are eaten first thing in the morning. I think I'll wash the slate and put it back with the parents and just leave it for now, see if they can figure things out. Betta have breeding problems (fail to follow their instinctive breeding behaviors) when the water quality is off, so I think when we really want the angels to spawn I'll do a lot of water changes first, like 20% every couple of days, and see if that makes a difference. 4 of the fry died overnight. Some weren't very active when they first hatched so I think they may have been affected by the fungus all around them. So now I'm down to 11 (added 2 more I found later in the day). I put them in another container with tank water since there was so much white stuff from the fungus-y eggs in the water. It's nice to be able to learn before you make mistakes, but making mistakes sure does cement the information, doesn't it??? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Renate, > > So, I see you do use slates, as I seemed to remember your mentioning a while back (but wasn't sure). I hope you saw that part of my last reply, where I told you to turn the slate around when transferring it to a rearing tank, so that the eggs are facing the tank side which the slate is leaning on. This will permit the hatching fry to be suspended away from any fungused material on the slate's surface. > > As for your Cory's being the egg-eating culprits, I really can't say as I don't know how many Cory's you have. Generally though, a protective Angelfish pair should be able to keep a few Cory's away from their spawn if they want to be diligent enough at it -- and most Angel pairs are quite protective of their eggs. I understand what you're saying however, in that the are very sound sleepers < g >. But, this does not preclude the possibility that it still may be at least one of the pair that eats the eggs, at least initially (with the other possibly joining in after it sees it's fruitless to protect them further). > > Quite often, uninitiated Angelfish pairs not yet having learned how to fully care for their spawn -- or not being as "conscious" or "attentive" of what's going on will loss track of exactly what they are doing after a night in darkness. Some pairs, when in near or total darkness at night, will experience an interruption of their spawning/rearing behavior sequence because of being deprived of the visual stimulus of seeing their eggs for this extended period of time. The result is, that they lose some of their protect instinct behavior of their spawn when interrupted as so. With only a loose care behavior now in place, one or the other (or both) the appetizing appearance of their eggs overwhelms any residual protective instinct that may remain, causing ("allowing") them to eat the eggs. > > If you hadn't turned the slate around when you moved it to the other tank, that's mistake # 1 (please learn from it). That you did not keep a NIGHT LIGHT on when the Angels are in their spawning/rearing sequence is mistake #2 -- please heed this suggestion also. Whenever otherwise unreliable Angelfish pairs have eggs (or fry), a night light must be kept on until dawn, so that the pair's attention to the eggs is never diminished or temporarily totally eliminated for 8 or 10 hours. This night light needs only to be a small table lamp on the other side of the room, but it must be present. Most egg-eating Angelfish pairs devour their eggs at first light the next morning, after a night in darkness, when the room just starts brightening up from the ambient light of day-break. > > When troublesome (egg-eating-prone) Angelfish pairs are protecting a spawn of eggs, their tank light should not be turned on, as this is like putting a spotlight on a plate of caviar; it gets tempting. The glaring stimulus of the very (too) brightly lit eggs sometimes overwhelms their innate (but already somewhat diminished in many domestic Angelfish) protective care behavior, again, promoting them to eat their eggs. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Ray, > > > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > > > - Renate > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51878	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray... I'm an insomniac and observe my tanks close to 20 hrs a day  (retired)... I had a digital and a std thermometer on the tank and it was holding at 84 degrees.  I log every activity that occurs in my tanks.  My research told me from 48 to 60 hrs for the eggs to hatch.....Perhaps I am lucky to have some angels that attended advanced parenting classes... How long at84 degrees do you think it should take for them to become wigglers?... On a second note, the fry are now in their 3rd location!... They now dominate a full half of a 6ft 125 gallon tank!.. Bill in Va.  p.s.  The parents name? The M is Spike... he's produced a half dozen fry batches for his prior owner... hence his name Spike.  The momma... Sarah, as in she protects her brood like a Grizzly Momma... (Palin come to mind).. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:58 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >  > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > R, > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51879	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, I don't know what you've used as a research source, but 48 hours is IMPOSSIBLE for an elapsed time for Angelfish eggs to hatch, and 60 hours hatching only occurs when the temperature is raised considerably beyond Angelfish's normal breeding range. However did your source come up with such erroneous information? BTW, while there's plenty of authoritative info on the 'Net, much of it can't be believed (and many copy each other) -- anyone can set up a web site regardless of how little they may know. I've never hatched my Angelfish eggs at 84 o, but based on the rate at which the eggs develop at uniformly increased temperature increments, I would say that at 84 o, they should hatch in approximately 62 to 64 hours. I think 54 1/2 hours is stretching it. Yes, it appears that you are indeed fortunate to have an inexperienced Angelfish pair display such extraordinary care towards their eggs so early in their breeding. You should only know how much other hobbyists would envy your position -- and how often that young Angel pairs take numerous spawning tries before they get it right (and some pairs never do). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I'm an insomniac and observe my tanks close to 20 hrs a day  (retired)... I had a digital and a std thermometer on the tank and it was holding at 84 degrees.  I log every activity that occurs in my tanks.  My research told me from 48 to 60 hrs for the eggs to hatch.....Perhaps I am lucky to have some angels that attended advanced parenting classes... How long at84 degrees do you think it should take for them to become wigglers?... On a second note, the fry are now in their 3rd location!... They now dominate a full half of a 6ft 125 gallon tank!.. Bill in Va.  > p.s.  The parents name? The M is Spike... he's produced a half dozen fry batches for his prior owner... hence his name Spike.  The momma... Sarah, as in she protects her brood like a Grizzly Momma... (Palin come to mind).. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:58 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. > > Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > R, > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51880	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Hi Bill, First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's still too soon for them to hatch. Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >  > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > R, > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51881	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Hi Bill, > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > still too soon for them to hatch. > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > R, > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51882	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Hi Bill, > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > still too soon for them to hatch. > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > R, > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51883	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray.. the male has a history of spawning.  I know of at least 4 spawns he did before I swapped for him... Him, a big DD and a platinum blue pearlscale. I gave up a 1st edition of Jack Wattley's book on Discus, pub 1985.  He has gone thru a spawn about a month ago and I made the mistake of turning the lights off in the man-cave... (AKA Garage).. Right now my tank in this heat is running 85o and the lights have not been off since Saturday... Luckily it's a heavily planted tank so the plants are keeping the algae pretty much in check so far.  Oh with pool filter sand as substrate. (I had it set up in the Walstad method until I upgraded tank sizes)...  Out of curiosity...have you ever checked out fluidized sand filters?.. Another guy in my local fish club and I built one.. A big boy capable of dealing with the waste of 100 lbs of tropical fish.. or close to 2,000 gallons of water.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:40 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, I don't know what you've used as a research source, but 48 hours is IMPOSSIBLE for an elapsed time for Angelfish eggs to hatch, and 60 hours hatching only occurs when the temperature is raised considerably beyond Angelfish's normal breeding range. However did your source come up with such erroneous information? BTW, while there's plenty of authoritative info on the 'Net, much of it can't be believed (and many copy each other) -- anyone can set up a web site regardless of how little they may know. I've never hatched my Angelfish eggs at 84 o, but based on the rate at which the eggs develop at uniformly increased temperature increments, I would say that at 84 o, they should hatch in approximately 62 to 64 hours. I think 54 1/2 hours is stretching it. Yes, it appears that you are indeed fortunate to have an inexperienced Angelfish pair display such extraordinary care towards their eggs so early in their breeding. You should only know how much other hobbyists would envy your position -- and how often that young Angel pairs take numerous spawning tries before they get it right (and some pairs never do). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I'm an insomniac and observe my tanks close to 20 hrs a day  (retired)... I had a digital and a std thermometer on the tank and it was holding at 84 degrees.  I log every activity that occurs in my tanks.  My research told me from 48 to 60 hrs for the eggs to hatch.....Perhaps I am lucky to have some angels that attended advanced parenting classes... How long at84 degrees do you think it should take for them to become wigglers?... On a second note, the fry are now in their 3rd location!... They now dominate a full half of a 6ft 125 gallon tank!.. Bill in Va.  > p.s.  The parents name? The M is Spike... he's produced a half dozen fry batches for his prior owner... hence his name Spike.  The momma... Sarah, as in she protects her brood like a Grizzly Momma... (Palin come to mind).. > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:58 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. > > Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >  > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site.  It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable.  They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs?  They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs?  Any input on my perceptions?  1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > R, > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51884	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

You needn't direct the night light at the fish. The idea is to provide them with just some subtle illumination to promote an uninterupted breeding/rearing cycle. When otherwise maintained with daytime lighting in the daytime, with ambient lighting accompanying the artificial lighting, most fishes will go into a noticeable inactive "sleep" phase at night -- even in the presence of a longer duration of their artificial lighting. They will most often be seen, as settling nearer the bottom of the tank, remaining relatively still -- for those species which inhabit most of the verticle range of the aquarium. For top dwellers and those inhabiting the upper third of the tank, they'll still remain at their preferred range, but will be observed to behave much calmer. Getting back to the Cory's though, I might remind you that they're most active at night as they're nocturnal. Noticed you mentionedthe slate again, and in doing so you reminded me of something else I meant to tell you with my last reply in this thread. You should ALWAYS have at least two slates on hand. Then, when you remove a slate with eggs, a substitute slate should immediately replace this slate. In this way, the pair's spawning site is never missing -- which is MOST important in perpetuating the pair bond, as when it's suddenly missing after spawning, one partner of the pair can blame the other for the sudden disappearance of the eggs. When a substitute slate is placed immediately in the same postion as the removed egg-laden slate, the pair will continue to fan the "phantom" eggs, provided the lighting is subdued, as they just won't notice the eggs are missing. The absence of the eggs will slowly sink into them over the next half a day, as their interest in the eggs diminishes over this time period, no longer having the visual stimulus of them. In this way too, they can't blame each other for eating the eggs, as they never missed them suddenly -- and they just don't suspect that the (switched) slate they think they just spawned on no longer contains their eggs. Yes, making mistakes is the sure way to learn, if that mistake has any meaningful importance to you. It's hard to learn and not make mistakes. If you have any questions on this topic, feel free to ask -- or even if you don't have questions but are unfamiliar with something, ask anyway if you want to make sure you're doing right. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > We did have a light on - exactly as you said - a lamp on the other side of the room. It's one of those desk lamps and we directed the light toward the tank (but the slate was facing away from the light so the eggs were in the shadow). In the morning when I went in, the male was on the other side of the tank (where the female sends him as punishment - I think - LOL!). > > Even with the night light on, they go into a comatose sleep at night. You can do anything in the tank and they stay just hovering there, not responsive. Is that normal or are my fish weird?? > > I do think you're right, tho, that the eggs are eaten first thing in the morning. > > I think I'll wash the slate and put it back with the parents and just leave it for now, see if they can figure things out. Betta have breeding problems (fail to follow their instinctive breeding behaviors) when the water quality is off, so I think when we really want the angels to spawn I'll do a lot of water changes first, like 20% every couple of days, and see if that makes a difference. > > 4 of the fry died overnight. Some weren't very active when they first hatched so I think they may have been affected by the fungus all around them. So now I'm down to 11 (added 2 more I found later in the day). I put them in another container with tank water since there was so much white stuff from the fungus-y eggs in the water. > > It's nice to be able to learn before you make mistakes, but making mistakes sure does cement the information, doesn't it??? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Hi Renate, > > > > So, I see you do use slates, as I seemed to remember your mentioning a while back (but wasn't sure). I hope you saw that part of my last reply, where I told you to turn the slate around when transferring it to a rearing tank, so that the eggs are facing the tank side which the slate is leaning on. This will permit the hatching fry to be suspended away from any fungused material on the slate's surface. > > > > As for your Cory's being the egg-eating culprits, I really can't say as I don't know how many Cory's you have. Generally though, a protective Angelfish pair should be able to keep a few Cory's away from their spawn if they want to be diligent enough at it -- and most Angel pairs are quite protective of their eggs. I understand what you're saying however, in that the are very sound sleepers < g >. But, this does not preclude the possibility that it still may be at least one of the pair that eats the eggs, at least initially (with the other possibly joining in after it sees it's fruitless to protect them further). > > > > Quite often, uninitiated Angelfish pairs not yet having learned how to fully care for their spawn -- or not being as "conscious" or "attentive" of what's going on will loss track of exactly what they are doing after a night in darkness. Some pairs, when in near or total darkness at night, will experience an interruption of their spawning/rearing behavior sequence because of being deprived of the visual stimulus of seeing their eggs for this extended period of time. The result is, that they lose some of their protect instinct behavior of their spawn when interrupted as so. With only a loose care behavior now in place, one or the other (or both) the appetizing appearance of their eggs overwhelms any residual protective instinct that may remain, causing ("allowing") them to eat the eggs. > > > > If you hadn't turned the slate around when you moved it to the other tank, that's mistake # 1 (please learn from it). That you did not keep a NIGHT LIGHT on when the Angels are in their spawning/rearing sequence is mistake #2 -- please heed this suggestion also. Whenever otherwise unreliable Angelfish pairs have eggs (or fry), a night light must be kept on until dawn, so that the pair's attention to the eggs is never diminished or temporarily totally eliminated for 8 or 10 hours. This night light needs only to be a small table lamp on the other side of the room, but it must be present. Most egg-eating Angelfish pairs devour their eggs at first light the next morning, after a night in darkness, when the room just starts brightening up from the ambient light of day-break. > > > > When troublesome (egg-eating-prone) Angelfish pairs are protecting a spawn of eggs, their tank light should not be turned on, as this is like putting a spotlight on a plate of caviar; it gets tempting. The glaring stimulus of the very (too) brightly lit eggs sometimes overwhelms their innate (but already somewhat diminished in many domestic Angelfish) protective care behavior, again, promoting them to eat their eggs. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > > > > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > > > > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > > > > > - Renate > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51885	From: haecklers	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

So we have to learn fish psychology too, huh?? LOL! OK I'll dig up another slate. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > You needn't direct the night light at the fish. The idea is to provide them with just some subtle illumination to promote an uninterupted breeding/rearing cycle. When otherwise maintained with daytime lighting in the daytime, with ambient lighting accompanying the artificial lighting, most fishes will go into a noticeable inactive "sleep" phase at night -- even in the presence of a longer duration of their artificial lighting. They will most often be seen, as settling nearer the bottom of the tank, remaining relatively still -- for those species which inhabit most of the verticle range of the aquarium. For top dwellers and those inhabiting the upper third of the tank, they'll still remain at their preferred range, but will be observed to behave much calmer. > > Getting back to the Cory's though, I might remind you that they're most active at night as they're nocturnal. > > Noticed you mentionedthe slate again, and in doing so you reminded me of something else I meant to tell you with my last reply in this thread. You should ALWAYS have at least two slates on hand. Then, when you remove a slate with eggs, a substitute slate should immediately replace this slate. In this way, the pair's spawning site is never missing -- which is MOST important in perpetuating the pair bond, as when it's suddenly missing after spawning, one partner of the pair can blame the other for the sudden disappearance of the eggs. When a substitute slate is placed immediately in the same postion as the removed egg-laden slate, the pair will continue to fan the "phantom" eggs, provided the lighting is subdued, as they just won't notice the eggs are missing. The absence of the eggs will slowly sink into them over the next half a day, as their interest in the eggs diminishes over this time period, no longer having the visual stimulus of them. In this way too, they can't blame each other for eating the eggs, as they never missed them suddenly -- and they just don't suspect that the (switched) slate they think they just spawned on no longer contains their eggs. > > Yes, making mistakes is the sure way to learn, if that mistake has any meaningful importance to you. It's hard to learn and not make mistakes. If you have any questions on this topic, feel free to ask -- or even if you don't have questions but are unfamiliar with something, ask anyway if you want to make sure you're doing right. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > We did have a light on - exactly as you said - a lamp on the other side of the room. It's one of those desk lamps and we directed the light toward the tank (but the slate was facing away from the light so the eggs were in the shadow). In the morning when I went in, the male was on the other side of the tank (where the female sends him as punishment - I think - LOL!). > > > > Even with the night light on, they go into a comatose sleep at night. You can do anything in the tank and they stay just hovering there, not responsive. Is that normal or are my fish weird?? > > > > I do think you're right, tho, that the eggs are eaten first thing in the morning. > > > > I think I'll wash the slate and put it back with the parents and just leave it for now, see if they can figure things out. Betta have breeding problems (fail to follow their instinctive breeding behaviors) when the water quality is off, so I think when we really want the angels to spawn I'll do a lot of water changes first, like 20% every couple of days, and see if that makes a difference. > > > > 4 of the fry died overnight. Some weren't very active when they first hatched so I think they may have been affected by the fungus all around them. So now I'm down to 11 (added 2 more I found later in the day). I put them in another container with tank water since there was so much white stuff from the fungus-y eggs in the water. > > > > It's nice to be able to learn before you make mistakes, but making mistakes sure does cement the information, doesn't it??? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Renate, > > > > > > So, I see you do use slates, as I seemed to remember your mentioning a while back (but wasn't sure). I hope you saw that part of my last reply, where I told you to turn the slate around when transferring it to a rearing tank, so that the eggs are facing the tank side which the slate is leaning on. This will permit the hatching fry to be suspended away from any fungused material on the slate's surface. > > > > > > As for your Cory's being the egg-eating culprits, I really can't say as I don't know how many Cory's you have. Generally though, a protective Angelfish pair should be able to keep a few Cory's away from their spawn if they want to be diligent enough at it -- and most Angel pairs are quite protective of their eggs. I understand what you're saying however, in that the are very sound sleepers < g >. But, this does not preclude the possibility that it still may be at least one of the pair that eats the eggs, at least initially (with the other possibly joining in after it sees it's fruitless to protect them further). > > > > > > Quite often, uninitiated Angelfish pairs not yet having learned how to fully care for their spawn -- or not being as "conscious" or "attentive" of what's going on will loss track of exactly what they are doing after a night in darkness. Some pairs, when in near or total darkness at night, will experience an interruption of their spawning/rearing behavior sequence because of being deprived of the visual stimulus of seeing their eggs for this extended period of time. The result is, that they lose some of their protect instinct behavior of their spawn when interrupted as so. With only a loose care behavior now in place, one or the other (or both) the appetizing appearance of their eggs overwhelms any residual protective instinct that may remain, causing ("allowing") them to eat the eggs. > > > > > > If you hadn't turned the slate around when you moved it to the other tank, that's mistake # 1 (please learn from it). That you did not keep a NIGHT LIGHT on when the Angels are in their spawning/rearing sequence is mistake #2 -- please heed this suggestion also. Whenever otherwise unreliable Angelfish pairs have eggs (or fry), a night light must be kept on until dawn, so that the pair's attention to the eggs is never diminished or temporarily totally eliminated for 8 or 10 hours. This night light needs only to be a small table lamp on the other side of the room, but it must be present. Most egg-eating Angelfish pairs devour their eggs at first light the next morning, after a night in darkness, when the room just starts brightening up from the ambient light of day-break. > > > > > > When troublesome (egg-eating-prone) Angelfish pairs are protecting a spawn of eggs, their tank light should not be turned on, as this is like putting a spotlight on a plate of caviar; it gets tempting. The glaring stimulus of the very (too) brightly lit eggs sometimes overwhelms their innate (but already somewhat diminished in many domestic Angelfish) protective care behavior, again, promoting them to eat their eggs. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > > > > > > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > > > > > > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > > > > > > > - Renate > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51886	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Hi Bill, > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > R, > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51887	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

It comes with the territory (fish psychology) -- LOL. Seriously, having two slates to interchange as needed can prevent any future possible disaster when otherwise one of the pair suspects the other of eating the eggs in the absence of them -- and the spawning site. At least you can nip in the bud, the possibility of an outright war between the pair if otherwise, the missing slate causes one to kill or blind the other. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > So we have to learn fish psychology too, huh?? LOL! OK I'll dig up another slate. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > You needn't direct the night light at the fish. The idea is to provide them with just some subtle illumination to promote an uninterupted breeding/rearing cycle. When otherwise maintained with daytime lighting in the daytime, with ambient lighting accompanying the artificial lighting, most fishes will go into a noticeable inactive "sleep" phase at night -- even in the presence of a longer duration of their artificial lighting. They will most often be seen, as settling nearer the bottom of the tank, remaining relatively still -- for those species which inhabit most of the verticle range of the aquarium. For top dwellers and those inhabiting the upper third of the tank, they'll still remain at their preferred range, but will be observed to behave much calmer. > > > > Getting back to the Cory's though, I might remind you that they're most active at night as they're nocturnal. > > > > Noticed you mentionedthe slate again, and in doing so you reminded me of something else I meant to tell you with my last reply in this thread. You should ALWAYS have at least two slates on hand. Then, when you remove a slate with eggs, a substitute slate should immediately replace this slate. In this way, the pair's spawning site is never missing -- which is MOST important in perpetuating the pair bond, as when it's suddenly missing after spawning, one partner of the pair can blame the other for the sudden disappearance of the eggs. When a substitute slate is placed immediately in the same postion as the removed egg-laden slate, the pair will continue to fan the "phantom" eggs, provided the lighting is subdued, as they just won't notice the eggs are missing. The absence of the eggs will slowly sink into them over the next half a day, as their interest in the eggs diminishes over this time period, no longer having the visual stimulus of them. In this way too, they can't blame each other for eating the eggs, as they never missed them suddenly -- and they just don't suspect that the (switched) slate they think they just spawned on no longer contains their eggs. > > > > Yes, making mistakes is the sure way to learn, if that mistake has any meaningful importance to you. It's hard to learn and not make mistakes. If you have any questions on this topic, feel free to ask -- or even if you don't have questions but are unfamiliar with something, ask anyway if you want to make sure you're doing right. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > We did have a light on - exactly as you said - a lamp on the other side of the room. It's one of those desk lamps and we directed the light toward the tank (but the slate was facing away from the light so the eggs were in the shadow). In the morning when I went in, the male was on the other side of the tank (where the female sends him as punishment - I think - LOL!). > > > > > > Even with the night light on, they go into a comatose sleep at night. You can do anything in the tank and they stay just hovering there, not responsive. Is that normal or are my fish weird?? > > > > > > I do think you're right, tho, that the eggs are eaten first thing in the morning. > > > > > > I think I'll wash the slate and put it back with the parents and just leave it for now, see if they can figure things out. Betta have breeding problems (fail to follow their instinctive breeding behaviors) when the water quality is off, so I think when we really want the angels to spawn I'll do a lot of water changes first, like 20% every couple of days, and see if that makes a difference. > > > > > > 4 of the fry died overnight. Some weren't very active when they first hatched so I think they may have been affected by the fungus all around them. So now I'm down to 11 (added 2 more I found later in the day). I put them in another container with tank water since there was so much white stuff from the fungus-y eggs in the water. > > > > > > It's nice to be able to learn before you make mistakes, but making mistakes sure does cement the information, doesn't it??? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Renate, > > > > > > > > So, I see you do use slates, as I seemed to remember your mentioning a while back (but wasn't sure). I hope you saw that part of my last reply, where I told you to turn the slate around when transferring it to a rearing tank, so that the eggs are facing the tank side which the slate is leaning on. This will permit the hatching fry to be suspended away from any fungused material on the slate's surface. > > > > > > > > As for your Cory's being the egg-eating culprits, I really can't say as I don't know how many Cory's you have. Generally though, a protective Angelfish pair should be able to keep a few Cory's away from their spawn if they want to be diligent enough at it -- and most Angel pairs are quite protective of their eggs. I understand what you're saying however, in that the are very sound sleepers < g >. But, this does not preclude the possibility that it still may be at least one of the pair that eats the eggs, at least initially (with the other possibly joining in after it sees it's fruitless to protect them further). > > > > > > > > Quite often, uninitiated Angelfish pairs not yet having learned how to fully care for their spawn -- or not being as "conscious" or "attentive" of what's going on will loss track of exactly what they are doing after a night in darkness. Some pairs, when in near or total darkness at night, will experience an interruption of their spawning/rearing behavior sequence because of being deprived of the visual stimulus of seeing their eggs for this extended period of time. The result is, that they lose some of their protect instinct behavior of their spawn when interrupted as so. With only a loose care behavior now in place, one or the other (or both) the appetizing appearance of their eggs overwhelms any residual protective instinct that may remain, causing ("allowing") them to eat the eggs. > > > > > > > > If you hadn't turned the slate around when you moved it to the other tank, that's mistake # 1 (please learn from it). That you did not keep a NIGHT LIGHT on when the Angels are in their spawning/rearing sequence is mistake #2 -- please heed this suggestion also. Whenever otherwise unreliable Angelfish pairs have eggs (or fry), a night light must be kept on until dawn, so that the pair's attention to the eggs is never diminished or temporarily totally eliminated for 8 or 10 hours. This night light needs only to be a small table lamp on the other side of the room, but it must be present. Most egg-eating Angelfish pairs devour their eggs at first light the next morning, after a night in darkness, when the room just starts brightening up from the ambient light of day-break. > > > > > > > > When troublesome (egg-eating-prone) Angelfish pairs are protecting a spawn of eggs, their tank light should not be turned on, as this is like putting a spotlight on a plate of caviar; it gets tempting. The glaring stimulus of the very (too) brightly lit eggs sometimes overwhelms their innate (but already somewhat diminished in many domestic Angelfish) protective care behavior, again, promoting them to eat their eggs. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray, > > > > > > > > > > Thanks again! I was on the fence about whether I really wanted to try to save this spawn because it's been a busy time for me, plus we just siphoned out 30 Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry to raise so on top of all the bettas that are jarred and needing daily water changes I wasn't sure I wanted to take on another spawn. So I decided to at least remove the slate and see what happened, in case all went well I could get some experience raising angel fry while all my live food cultures are going strong. > > > > > > > > > > We've actually got plans to get rid of the African Cichlids in the 55 gallon tank and move the angel pair into that one, then when they're away from the cories we'll finally know who is eating the eggs!!! I still suspect it's the cories - their own eggs look a LOT like angelfish eggs and they eat them, plus my angelfish are very sound sleepers - even with light on they don't react to anything at night. We once netted one and moved it to a bucket without it waking up! Well, then it woke up in the bucket and was like "Hey, how did I get here??" > > > > > > > > > > (Anyone want some young but full-grown Malawi Cichlids in West Chester PA??? FREE???) > > > > > > > > > > - Renate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51888	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, Sounds like you have an experienced male which knows what to do to care for his young. I had just assumed that your pair was from juveniles you raised up to this point. Looks like you got a good bargain. By Jack Wattley's book, I guess you mean his "Handbook of Discus," published in 1985. Yes, an excellent book -- I also have this 1st edition, just as you had. Have some other good ones on Discus by Eduard Schmidt-Focke, Bernd Degen, Eberhard Schulze and several others -- all good fish reading. Haven't talked to Jack in years; we used to phone each other several times a month in years past. My Blue Turquoise were from Jack's strain. I see you learned that turning the lights off was a mistake. Well, we all live & learn. I know what you mean about this heat spell causing tank temperatures of 85 o. Last week, my hatchery was running 86 o, and I couldn't do too much about it. Fortunately, I believe in light stocking loads, so I didn't have one problem. Yes, pool filter sand is a good substrate as unlike play sand, its edges are rounded. No, I never looked into fluidized beds. Wouldn't be practical for the many tanks I have -- although I don't see why it shouldn't work out for a sampling of specialty-fish tanks. I have over 3000 gallons right now, but have absolutely no idea of how many pounds of fish -- don't happen to have a fish scale < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. the male has a history of spawning.  I know of at least 4 spawns he did before I swapped for him... Him, a big DD and a platinum blue pearlscale. I gave up a 1st edition of Jack Wattley's book on Discus, pub 1985.  He has gone thru a spawn about a month ago and I made the mistake of turning the lights off in the man-cave... (AKA Garage).. Right now my tank in this heat is running 85o and the lights have not been off since Saturday... Luckily it's a heavily planted tank so the plants are keeping the algae pretty much in check so far.  Oh with pool filter sand as substrate. (I had it set up in the Walstad method until I upgraded tank sizes)...  > Out of curiosity...have you ever checked out fluidized sand filters?.. Another guy in my local fish club and I built one.. A big boy capable of dealing with the waste of 100 lbs of tropical fish.. or close to 2,000 gallons of water.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:40 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > I don't know what you've used as a research source, but 48 hours is IMPOSSIBLE for an elapsed time for Angelfish eggs to hatch, and 60 hours hatching only occurs when the temperature is raised considerably beyond Angelfish's normal breeding range. However did your source come up with such erroneous information? BTW, while there's plenty of authoritative info on the 'Net, much of it can't be believed (and many copy each other) -- anyone can set up a web site regardless of how little they may know. > > I've never hatched my Angelfish eggs at 84 o, but based on the rate at which the eggs develop at uniformly increased temperature increments, I would say that at 84 o, they should hatch in approximately 62 to 64 hours. I think 54 1/2 hours is stretching it. > > Yes, it appears that you are indeed fortunate to have an inexperienced Angelfish pair display such extraordinary care towards their eggs so early in their breeding. You should only know how much other hobbyists would envy your position -- and how often that young Angel pairs take numerous spawning tries before they get it right (and some pairs never do). > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray... I'm an insomniac and observe my tanks close to 20 hrs a day  (retired)... I had a digital and a std thermometer on the tank and it was holding at 84 degrees.  I log every activity that occurs in my tanks.  My research told me from 48 to 60 hrs for the eggs to hatch.....Perhaps I am lucky to have some angels that attended advanced parenting classes... How long at84 degrees do you think it should take for them to become wigglers?... On a second note, the fry are now in their 3rd location!... They now dominate a full half of a 6ft 125 gallon tank!.. Bill in Va.  > > p.s.  The parents name? The M is Spike... he's produced a half dozen fry batches for his prior owner... hence his name Spike.  The momma... Sarah, as in she protects her brood like a Grizzly Momma... (Palin come to mind).. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:58 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. > > > > Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > R, > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51889	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble setting up bubble wall

Hello again Laurie, No, that's not an expensive part at all-rather cheap in fact & quite easy to fit too. I'm not sure exactly how to open your model of airpump but generally there will be a few screws & then you can take the casing off. I think there are several different sizes of these so you want to tell your local store what make of air pump you have so you get the right size. I agree with you about the dial being broken, I would have thought it would alter the flow otherwise. Again, I don't know the particular model but the dial might also be something that you can get a spare part for. Regarding the size of pump suitable for that length of tubing & bubble wand you will need something powerful, the bigger the better I would say. John*<o)))< * On 9 August 2011 14:43, laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...>wrote: > ** > > > >>might just need to replace the rubber diaphragm, especially as this > is a > used air pump & the original one may be worn out & leaking air so not > performing to it's full potential. > > Ooh, that does not sound like an expensive part, would it be hard to > find? > > My Whisper 500 Second Nature air pump has a dial, but it does not vary > the amount of air produced, so clearly something is broken. I know > Whisper is a very COMMON brand, is it possible to find replacement > rubber diaphragms, and an illustration of how to replace one? > > For the 24" depth, and the consequent large amount of tubing needed to > get to the tank, up the side, and all the way to the bottom, if I were > to look for another pump, how many gallons of water should the pump be > intended for, in order to reliably give me 24" of bubbles, 24" down? > > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build > a cistern. > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - > Pablo Picasso > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51890	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  One I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Hi Bill, > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > R, > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51891	From: Ray	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Bill, Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51892	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard reach! I do not want this darn plant to float, it is some kind of grass looking stuff, I think the LFS said spiral Vallisneria, actually the leaves aren't twisted, but it has long grassy leaves. Root ball is 2" tall and almost 2" across, and looks like it was grown in one of those plastic mesh pots till not long before I bought it. When it floats, it blocks the light the plants on the bottom need, and the roots look messy. Like a cat, it always wants to face me with its bottom. Arrgh. What safe, unobtrusive items could I use to weight this plant down so it will stay on the bottom till the roots grow into the gravel? Using the tongs is NOT enough help. I make a hole to put the roots into, and then fill in gravel around the roots, have done that three times now and the plant floats back up in minutes or an hour, it's not working. laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51893	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Here is a thread my co-builder wrote on our efforts.:  http://fishaddicts.forumotion.com/t444-fluidized-sand-filtration-systems#4373 Here is the thread on the fish forum I co-founded:  http://aquaticfriendsunited.forumotion.com/t186-looking-to-buy-or-build-a-new-filtration-system He can be a bit long-winded. Bill  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:48 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, Sounds like you have an experienced male which knows what to do to care for his young. I had just assumed that your pair was from juveniles you raised up to this point. Looks like you got a good bargain. By Jack Wattley's book, I guess you mean his "Handbook of Discus," published in 1985. Yes, an excellent book -- I also have this 1st edition, just as you had. Have some other good ones on Discus by Eduard Schmidt-Focke, Bernd Degen, Eberhard Schulze and several others -- all good fish reading. Haven't talked to Jack in years; we used to phone each other several times a month in years past. My Blue Turquoise were from Jack's strain. I see you learned that turning the lights off was a mistake. Well, we all live & learn. I know what you mean about this heat spell causing tank temperatures of 85 o. Last week, my hatchery was running 86 o, and I couldn't do too much about it. Fortunately, I believe in light stocking loads, so I didn't have one problem. Yes, pool filter sand is a good substrate as unlike play sand, its edges are rounded. No, I never looked into fluidized beds. Wouldn't be practical for the many tanks I have -- although I don't see why it shouldn't work out for a sampling of specialty-fish tanks. I have over 3000 gallons right now, but have absolutely no idea of how many pounds of fish -- don't happen to have a fish scale < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. the male has a history of spawning.  I know of at least 4 spawns he did before I swapped for him... Him, a big DD and a platinum blue pearlscale. I gave up a 1st edition of Jack Wattley's book on Discus, pub 1985.  He has gone thru a spawn about a month ago and I made the mistake of turning the lights off in the man-cave... (AKA Garage).. Right now my tank in this heat is running 85o and the lights have not been off since Saturday... Luckily it's a heavily planted tank so the plants are keeping the algae pretty much in check so far.  Oh with pool filter sand as substrate. (I had it set up in the Walstad method until I upgraded tank sizes)...  > Out of curiosity...have you ever checked out fluidized sand filters?.. Another guy in my local fish club and I built one.. A big boy capable of dealing with the waste of 100 lbs of tropical fish.. or close to 2,000 gallons of water.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 4:40 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > I don't know what you've used as a research source, but 48 hours is IMPOSSIBLE for an elapsed time for Angelfish eggs to hatch, and 60 hours hatching only occurs when the temperature is raised considerably beyond Angelfish's normal breeding range. However did your source come up with such erroneous information? BTW, while there's plenty of authoritative info on the 'Net, much of it can't be believed (and many copy each other) -- anyone can set up a web site regardless of how little they may know. > > I've never hatched my Angelfish eggs at 84 o, but based on the rate at which the eggs develop at uniformly increased temperature increments, I would say that at 84 o, they should hatch in approximately 62 to 64 hours. I think 54 1/2 hours is stretching it. > > Yes, it appears that you are indeed fortunate to have an inexperienced Angelfish pair display such extraordinary care towards their eggs so early in their breeding. You should only know how much other hobbyists would envy your position -- and how often that young Angel pairs take numerous spawning tries before they get it right (and some pairs never do). > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray... I'm an insomniac and observe my tanks close to 20 hrs a day  (retired)... I had a digital and a std thermometer on the tank and it was holding at 84 degrees.  I log every activity that occurs in my tanks.  My research told me from 48 to 60 hrs for the eggs to hatch.....Perhaps I am lucky to have some angels that attended advanced parenting classes... How long at84 degrees do you think it should take for them to become wigglers?... On a second note, the fry are now in their 3rd location!... They now dominate a full half of a 6ft 125 gallon tank!.. Bill in Va.  > > p.s.  The parents name? The M is Spike... he's produced a half dozen fry batches for his prior owner... hence his name Spike.  The momma... Sarah, as in she protects her brood like a Grizzly Momma... (Palin come to mind).. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 10:58 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > I'm glad to see you've had some success, with now having Angelfish wrigglers. I hope you have continued success with having the parents raise them. As you may know, domestic first-time Angelfish parents may often need at least several (up to a dozen or more?) tries at caring for their eggs and/or fry before they get it right. Don't be too discouraged if they end up eating these as they can still consume them for now apparent reason to the hobbyist, even after they are free-swimming. If this should happen though, they would be able to spawn again in about 8 days. > > > > Looking at your time element -- of 54 1/2 hours for hatching -- I have to assume that either you never actually observed them spawning, to record when this took place, or that your heater (and/or thermometer) is off by several degrees, to the warmer side. Otherwise, there's no other way to consider Angelfish eggs hatching in this short amount of time; I don't see it as possible even at 84 o. So far, it does seem like you have a dependable pair if they continue this same care. Best of luck. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Update... went out for 30 minutes.. typed in that latest message...sent it.. went to check on the eggs... GONE...Well, actually relocated about a foot away... 100+ lil wigglers!.. My first hatch in over 30 years. The parents are very protective so they will be staying in the tank with momma (Sarah) and poppa (Spike).  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill <williemcd@> > > > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:46 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more.  I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx.  But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >  > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > R, > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51894	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Yea... I sold off a 180G 1/2 cylinder too...it and the 1/4G 92 were GLASS tanks.. Ended up dumping them for 700 combined.  But.. I'll elaborate on that deal... A seafood resturant had gone out of bus.  the new owner advertised "aquariums for sale".. responded of course... Made him an offer for 700 on everything including a 50' X 12 foot Koi pond containing 50 or so Koi up to 18" and two fountains, one of which was 5 feet tall and the other 7 feet tall.  The interior had two of those 92G 1/4 cylinders, one 180G 1/2 cylinders (all three salt) with supporting sumps/uv's and HD lighting.  Next up was a 235G lobster tank w/chiller.  Finally was my 155G with the 33G long as a sump for Africans. Those two are the last I have.  Sold off most of the koi...So that's where most of my profits have come.  The two fountains paid for the whole deal as it was.. Still got a boat load of equipment left...  My side deck, which is visable from the road is completely loaded with totes of equipment.  It's pushing my wife's patience to the limit.  Unfortunately, another deal came up this past week that almost caused divorce lawyers to chime in!...LOL...  I got started in Feb with the purchase of a 29 G with like 80 guppies in it... My next tank I told the wife it was just a "flip" opportunity.  Now running just under 1,000 gal in just over 5 months, that excuse is starting to get cracks in it.  <grin>  Attached is  a pic of a fish I just rescued.  Luckily I found a home for him which will be avail in 3 days.  Bill   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 8:20 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Bill, Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Bill, > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51895	From: Sivakumar Viswanathan	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to avoid any metal inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. ________________________________ From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard reach! I do not want this darn plant to float, it is some kind of grass looking stuff, I think the LFS said spiral Vallisneria, actually the leaves aren't twisted, but it has long grassy leaves. Root ball is 2" tall and almost 2" across, and looks like it was grown in one of those plastic mesh pots till not long before I bought it. When it floats, it blocks the light the plants on the bottom need, and the roots look messy. Like a cat, it always wants to face me with its bottom. Arrgh. What safe, unobtrusive items could I use to weight this plant down so it will stay on the bottom till the roots grow into the gravel? Using the tongs is NOT enough help. I make a hole to put the roots into, and then fill in gravel around the roots, have done that three times now and the plant floats back up in minutes or an hour, it's not working. laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51896	From: Bill	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

I would never put lead in a tank.. How deep is your substrate?.. Worst case?.. a thin piece of plastic.. say the lid to a butter dish or something like that.. slice from the exterior to the center.  Cut a circle big enough to encompass the veggitation but small enough to contain the root ball.. Put generous amounts of substrate on the plastic platter.  That should keep it down till it roots!... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:59 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball   My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard reach! I do not want this darn plant to float, it is some kind of grass looking stuff, I think the LFS said spiral Vallisneria, actually the leaves aren't twisted, but it has long grassy leaves. Root ball is 2" tall and almost 2" across, and looks like it was grown in one of those plastic mesh pots till not long before I bought it. When it floats, it blocks the light the plants on the bottom need, and the roots look messy. Like a cat, it always wants to face me with its bottom. Arrgh. What safe, unobtrusive items could I use to weight this plant down so it will stay on the bottom till the roots grow into the gravel? Using the tongs is NOT enough help. I make a hole to put the roots into, and then fill in gravel around the roots, have done that three times now and the plant floats back up in minutes or an hour, it's not working. laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51897	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 8/9/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 inches of gravel. It'll stay down. >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to >avoid any metal >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > >________________________________ >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with >compact root ball > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard reach! -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51898	From: haecklers	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Bill, > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51899	From: Ray	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Bill, > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51900	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Hi Laurie, Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting approval from the group's moderators. John*<o)))< * On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > ** > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > >avoid any metal > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > >________________________________ > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > >compact root ball > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > reach! > -- > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51901	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again

My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again   Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Bill, > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well with > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank.  So many conflicting data out there hey?..  > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch.  The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits.  It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away.  Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode.  It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly.  Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet it's > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51902	From: haecklers	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well > with > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > > > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet > it's > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ Any input on my perceptions? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51903	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > >   > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well > with > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust:  One just relocated from Richmond to Fla.  None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders that supplement their hobby.  The other two are also in Fla.  I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success.  I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp.  full time or just to stimulate breeding.  > > > > > Now onto more important matters.  Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south.   > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...  > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for a reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, yet > it's > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ Any input on my perceptions? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51904	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well > > with > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp. ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, > yet > > it's > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51905	From: Bill	Date: 8/10/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > >   > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels.  He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert.  It's all about what they are acclimated to.  I surrendered.  A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage.  During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks.  The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief.  Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground.  I'll be keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out.   > > > > > > > > > > Discus.  Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold.  Being unemployed for 4 years can do that.  To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment.  As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration.  Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...  > > > > > Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private well > > with > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp. ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, > yet > > it's > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51906	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Bill, did you think I said something "bad" against them? I suppose I should have spelled it out. I like their selection. They have beautiful photos of fish on their web site. I especially like their Siam Yellow discus that happen to be on sale for a good price. I also like the photos of many of their other varieties too. But I have not dealt with them so I cannot give a personal review. However, they have many posts from satisfied customers on their site. The question was: Where can I get discus? And that's a site/breeder that's worth looking into and possibly considering. If *I* were in the market for discus, they might get my business. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > > > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels. ÃÆ'‚ He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert. ÃÆ'‚ It's all about what they are acclimated to. ÃÆ'‚ I surrendered. ÃÆ'‚ A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage. ÃÆ'‚ During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks. ÃÆ'‚ The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief. ÃÆ'‚ Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground. ÃÆ'‚ I'll be > keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > Discus. ÃÆ'‚ Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold. ÃÆ'‚ Being unemployed for 4 years can do that. ÃÆ'‚ To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment. ÃÆ'‚ As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration. ÃÆ'‚ Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private > well > > > with > > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, > > yet > > > it's > > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I > suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51907	From: joe t	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. joet --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > ~Kai > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51908	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Thanks for posting the pictures, John, going to look for them now! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51909	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Kai.. What I meant by my comment. If I was going to recommend them I would have done so.  If what I have to say about them isn't good, I don't comment.  So.. now I've given my assessment of that business.  I've heard of too many complaints on their fish.  I suspect they get their stock from fish-farms.  I prefer to find private breeders or from well established breeding companies like Hans... Bill  ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:22 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Bill, did you think I said something "bad" against them? I suppose I should have spelled it out. I like their selection. They have beautiful photos of fish on their web site. I especially like their Siam Yellow discus that happen to be on sale for a good price. I also like the photos of many of their other varieties too. But I have not dealt with them so I cannot give a personal review. However, they have many posts from satisfied customers on their site. The question was: Where can I get discus? And that's a site/breeder that's worth looking into and possibly considering. If *I* were in the market for discus, they might get my business. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's.  When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so.  I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him?  LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.  > > > I went so far as contacting breeders in Thailand  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution.   > > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > >   > > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels. ÃÆ'‚ He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert. ÃÆ'‚ It's all about what they are acclimated to. ÃÆ'‚ I surrendered. ÃÆ'‚ A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage. ÃÆ'‚ During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks. ÃÆ'‚ The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief. ÃÆ'‚ Since I've only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground. ÃÆ'‚ I'll be > keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > Discus. ÃÆ'‚ Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold. ÃÆ'‚ Being unemployed for 4 years can do that. ÃÆ'‚ To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment. ÃÆ'‚ As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration. ÃÆ'‚ Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private > well > > > with > > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a temp. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 o, > > yet > > > it's > > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I > suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ > > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51910	From: abbyliscious88	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Hey Guys

Toatally New Here ..If im on Fillme in as to whats new .. they call me abbyliscious88 on my messenger

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51911	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

If you take a look at this link: http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. This is what the healthy plant should look like. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Laurie, > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > approval from the group's moderators. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > >avoid any metal > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > >________________________________ > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > > reach! > > -- > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51912	From: Ray	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Joe, Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > joet > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > ~Kai > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51913	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Thanks Bill, I got it now. I thought you thought I'd bad-mouthed them undeservedly. But now I got it. :o) It's a shame their fish aren't as good as their photos. They won't get my business after all -- I'm not meticulous enough to keep discus anyway. But I still think the photos of the Siam Yellows are stunning. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Kai.. What I meant by my comment. If I was going to recommend them I would have done so.  If what I have to say about them isn't good, I don't comment.  So.. now I've given my assessment of that business.  I've heard of too many complaints on their fish.  I suspect they get their stock from fish-farms.  I prefer to find private breeders or from well established breeding companies like Hans... Bill  > > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:22 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Bill, did you think I said something "bad" against them? I suppose I should have spelled it out. I like their selection. They have beautiful photos of fish on their web site. I especially like their Siam Yellow discus that happen to be on sale for a good price. I also like the photos of many of their other varieties too. But I have not dealt with them so I cannot give a personal review. However, they have many posts from satisfied customers on their site. > > The question was: Where can I get discus? And that's a site/breeder that's worth looking into and possibly considering. If *I* were in the market for discus, they might get my business. > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > > > > >   > > > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > > > > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's. ÃÆ'‚ When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so. ÃÆ'‚ I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him? ÃÆ'‚ LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > I went so far as contacting breeders inÃÆ'‚ ThailandÃÆ'‚  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's all about what they are acclimated to. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I surrendered. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Since I've > only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I'll be > > keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Discus. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Being unemployed for 4 years can do that. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration. ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private > > well > > > > with > > > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a > temp. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 > o, > > > yet > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I > > suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'Â¢Ã¢â‚¬à ¡Ã‚Â¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'Ã¢â‚¬à ¡ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51914	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Kai.. if'n ya wanna look at Discus:  http://discusfishstore.com/catalog/index.php Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:56 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Thanks Bill, I got it now. I thought you thought I'd bad-mouthed them undeservedly. But now I got it. :o) It's a shame their fish aren't as good as their photos. They won't get my business after all -- I'm not meticulous enough to keep discus anyway. But I still think the photos of the Siam Yellows are stunning. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Kai.. What I meant by my comment. If I was going to recommend them I would have done so.  If what I have to say about them isn't good, I don't comment.  So.. now I've given my assessment of that business.  I've heard of too many complaints on their fish.  I suspect they get their stock from fish-farms.  I prefer to find private breeders or from well established breeding companies like Hans... Bill  > > > ________________________________ > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 9:22 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Bill, did you think I said something "bad" against them? I suppose I should have spelled it out. I like their selection. They have beautiful photos of fish on their web site. I especially like their Siam Yellow discus that happen to be on sale for a good price. I also like the photos of many of their other varieties too. But I have not dealt with them so I cannot give a personal review. However, they have many posts from satisfied customers on their site. > > The question was: Where can I get discus? And that's a site/breeder that's worth looking into and possibly considering. If *I* were in the market for discus, they might get my business. > ~Kai > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Haeck... track that guy down!... I'll convert my whole man-cave to grow out tanks!... Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 8:27 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > > > > >   > > > A guy in the fish store up here told me about a breeder who had more discus fry than he had room to grow out and was practically giving them away to experienced fish keepers. Unfortunately I think he stopped breeding them by the time I heard about it. Someone in NYC gets them and sells them for $15 each at around 3", I've seen his ads somewhere or other, random colors. > > > > > > We looked into getting them but then our RO system gave out and we couldn't get a replacement filter any more. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > My local fish club only has one other discus keeper.. He was my source for the scorpions. He's in the process of building a grow-out facility consisting of 28 70G's. ÃÆ'‚ When I bought my 12 scorpions, he was down to like 60 or so. ÃÆ'‚ I'm not sure what volume he buys in but I'm convinced I'll not be asked to share in those initial buy's. He'll be wanting to grow them out for resale before I'm offered...(can't blame him I guess)..He has a contact with a breeder within a 2 hr drive from me but do ya think I can get it out of him? ÃÆ'‚ LOL... I guess they have a symbiotic relationship... One breeds em, one grows em.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > I went so far as contacting breeders inÃÆ'‚ ThailandÃÆ'‚  and Viet Nam... Apparently they aren't open to new venues of distribution. ÃÆ'‚  > > > > I do have a friend's wife that did the Chinese to English translation for a book on Discus that I may have to tap... > > > > My local club was only formed mid-april and we already boast over 70 local members...(Richmond, Va. and surrounding area)... I've gotten an inkling of a local keeper but he's a couple of hours away, doesn't get online so we'll see. > > > > If'n ya come across a deal on a dozen turq's or blue or green snakes, PLEASE keep me in mind!.. Bill in Va.ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 7:58 AM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚  > > > > Certainly not at a LFS. You'd have to buy them direct from a breeder. This is yet another perk when belonging to a fish club and getting to know who breeds what. Nationally known Discus breeders like Discus Hans also has them available and will ship them -- live arrival guaranteed. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Where do you FIND nickel-to-quarter sized discus, tho??? > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > Now THERE might be the perfect Malawi Cichlid tank a cylindrical-shaped one. Reminds me of an ancient saying I heard when I was young; "Run for the roundhouse, Nellie; they'll never corner you there." No Malawi fish could get cornered by the dominent male of this aquarium. Unbelieveable that, that buyer mixed Koi with African Cichlids and with Angels all in one tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh, speaking of a comparison with humans -- and I meant to write about this in my previious post -- even we have a preferred temperature range most often near 70 o or 72 o (even 68 o for a good night's sleep). While 95 o or even 103 o -- which we've been having recently -- is still within our range, it's well above what we prefer even though it won't kill us. In fact, I would say that without our air conditioners, that 103 o is quite stressful on us, or even 92 o when the humidity can be wrung out of mid-air. This is how I see 84 o for the poor Angelfish. > > > > > > > > > > > > Right, frozen 1 or 2 litre bottles of water make great heat sinks to cool your tanks down. Probably about the best way to keep the water temps nearer to what they should be, but you need to monitor them to prevent too much of a drop too fast. > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand your situation about money. Most of us are in the same boat lately to one extent or another, with the way this economy is going. Oh, so now I see your plan, to just have one pair of Scorpions, sell off the rest, and look to start another strain. Can't go wrong that way. Nickel to quarter size Discus are best to start with anyway, in my book, as they adapt to and grow with your water conditions from the start. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I sold a 92 1/4 cylinder tank to a Koi keeper... he loved my africans and angels. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ He secured some africans (Malawi) elsewhere and was housing all three in one tank... Talk about diversity!... His counter argument?... Humans live in the arctic as well as the desert. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's all about what they are acclimated to. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I surrendered. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ A temp dif of 82 - 84 is just over 2% variance. I'm sure this winter they'll go back to a mid-70's environment as my fishroom is an attached 1.5 car unheated garage. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ During the dog-days we've experienced, I have floated water bottles full of ice in my tanks. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The African tanks were approaching 90 without that relief. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Since I've > only been back into the hobby for 5 months now, after a 20+ year hiatus, I always keep my eyes open and my ear to the ground. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I'll be > > keeping my eye on the temps once this brood grows out. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Discus. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Yea.. it would have been nice to keep all 12 scorpions but money is tight in this house-hold. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Being unemployed for 4 years can do that. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ To-date, I've spent less than 200.00 on the hobby... but have managed to sell off about 3K in tanks/equipment. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ As far as coming up with multiple breeders of a type?..My goal is to have 5 - 6 show quality specimens of different coloration. ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Once I have a breeding pair of the scorpions I will prob sell off the other 4 and purchase another dozen... Turq's or snakes of some sort and repeat the process... On my budget, I have to purchase at dime to nickel size and recoup my outlay after 6-8 weeks...So ya can see I'm not out to become real competition for the real breeders out there. > > > > > > > I'm very familiar with Hans discus.. on a much smaller scale there is a pretty reputable breeder in Apollo fla...ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 7:05 PM > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As the old saying goes, you can't argue with success, but that doesn't make their methods correct. Sure, you can maintain, breed and rear Angelfish at a higher than normal temperature, as 84 o is still within their habitable range even though it might be siomwhat stressful. By "normal" range, in this context, I'm meaning that temperature at which Angelfish prefer -- which is much closer to 80 o. A temperature of 82 o is acceptable, but marginally at the upper preference of their temperature range, and quite unnecessary to use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not knocking what these three breeders prefer doing, in their way of breeding Angelfish, but even though they're succesful they're keeping these animals way too high in their temperature. Since you trust them though, I'm to assume that you may not be concerned about the more proper way to breed and maintain Angelfish, so I won't go into this any further if you prefer to follow their methods and prefer not to learn the correct temperatures at which to keep these fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My interests in Discus are primarily with the Blue Turquoise and Pigeon Blood strains. While I've bred both of these strains with much success, I don't have any for sale at this time. Reason being, I had to discontinue raising them as most of the water in this part of New Jersey where I am is alkaline, and most hobbyists around here find it more difficult to maintain them (without going into R/O water, etc.), and so, they just don't buy them. Sales of Discus in South Jersey are fairly decent, as much of the tap water from that region is soft and acid -- and much more preferable to Discus even though domestic Discus can be raised in moderately alkaline water. But, I don't want to travel several hours to make deliveries any longer. I've done my share of driving in the past, to distribute the fishes I've raised and don't want to continue that part any longer. I'm fortunate with water as, besides my alkaline tap water, I also have a private > > well > > > > with > > > > > > > soft acid water -- which my South American fishes just love. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your 155 sounds great. Too bad you sold off 6 of your Scorpion Discus before you determined how many of each sex you're left with. I'd have raised all twelve in the 155 up to a decent enough juvenile size to where I could sex them, and then sell off the extra 6, but I guess you have your own plan. Still, out of six you're just about guaranteed one pair, but obtaining 3 pairs would be a bit more chancey when rearing 6 fish of unknown sexes. Nice to see you have some Pigeon Bloods -- they're one of my favorites. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much luck with them all. For top quality Discus -- and fairly near you -- I could recommend a good friend of mine, Hans Koops van't Jagt (Discus Hans) who has a place near Baltimore, MD. I know you wouldn't be disappointed with his fish. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. the three breeders that I know... and trust: ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ One just relocated from Richmond to Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ None of these are commercial breeders just very successful hobby breeders thatÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ supplementÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ their hobby. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The other two are also in Fla. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I've seen their tanks, their fish and seen their success. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ I'll have to ask if they maintain their tanks at that high of a > temp. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ full time or just to stimulate breeding.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Now onto more important matters. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Open up about your Discus!... I bought a dozen Scorpions at .25 cent size.. Sold off 6 after 6 weeks... So now I have 6 discus at a cost of minus 15.00... Then I inherited 3 pigeon bloods when the Angel breeder moved south. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > The Scorp's are a mix of blue diamond and blue snake...just in case it's a breeders nomenclature... Still too new to discus this go-round.. (Tried back in the early 70's when I was an underpaid GI)...ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Are ya breeding any?.. selling any?... I've a 155G 6 footer that's now fully cycled and I'll be pulling the 9 out of a 75 (born in Feb of 2011) and putting them in the big boy (to me that is)... I am looking for aÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ reasonably priced 4-pack of either green or blue turq's. Or something similar. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 5:26 PM > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHICH "three breeders of Angels" are you referring to, that keep their tanks up to the mid-80's for breeding (and I hope it's this high ONLY for breeding -- with giving them rests in between by lowering the temperature)??? This is unnecessarily constantly stressing these fish keeping them at a constant 84 o if this is what these "breeders" do. We know that in their wild tropic environments, that their water may get up to and possibly beyond 84 o, but it's not constant -- AND, the fish can seek lower depths to get away from the most heat if they choose to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sure, I keep all my adult Discus at 84 o, and 86 o when they're (only when they're) breeding. The juvie Discus should be kept at 86 o all the time -- BUT, we're talking about an entirely different animal here; one that has entirely different requirements when it comes to temperature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Twenty full size Angelfish in a 125 gallon tank is a scosche on the crowded side, if they're full growth -- and if they're not full grown, this is all the more reason to thin them out a bit to enable them to reach their full potential. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, Angelfish will take up to at least a 5' diameter as their breeding territory, with the remaining 2 1/2' radius outside of the tank as their part of their imaginary territory. When Angelfish were first bred in the early 1920's, the hobbyists needed to mask the tank's glass with paper since the approach of the hobbyist would aggitate the fish, seemingly as encroaching upon their territory. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While not all pairs will display this horizontal "stealth" maneuver in dispatching any unwanted conspecifics from their area, I've noticed that it has always been just the female of the pair that displays this behavior when she feels that the male's defensive attempts at guarding the eggs are still allowing too close passings by other Angels. Quite the unexpected sight, when each time it's shown, it's at a speed about double of what the ordinary chase off of another Angelfish would be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like you have a fair amount of wrigglers there, and your guestimate is most likely on the low side. As these breeders grow even larger, you can expect normal spawns to number anywhere from 200 to 250. More infrequent spawns can number near 350 or more, but all this is due in part by their diet and how soon they spawn after the preceeding spawning. This again can be partially controlled by the temperature, although a well-condition pair intent on breeding will still do so at 72 o if they're so inclined to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. all three breeders of Angels keep their tanks in the low to mid 80s... Same with my discus tank. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ So many conflicting data out there hey?..ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > Right now the parents have moved them three times.. It's now 24 hours since the hatch. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ The parents have declared to the other dozen and a half that half of the tank is now off-limits. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's comical watching the parents go horizontal shagging all the other fish away. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Sorta reminds me of fighter pilots in WWII movies going into the attack mode. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ It's impossible at this time to count the number of wigglers I've got but I guestimated the eggs at 100 give or take 10%.Right now some are even looking like fish rather than a quivering bowl of jelly. > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 9:09 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First of all, you should never be at 84 o -- at least not, intentionally -- although I understand in this weather that tank temperatures may be elevated beyond what we'd like them to be. While 84 o will slightly speed up the hatching time, still, Angelfish eggs will never hatch in as few as 48 hours. At 84 o, you may get them to hatch in 64 to 66 hours, but I think 60 hours is unrealistic. Perhaps at 86 o, they may hatch in 60 hours. At the proper breeding (and hatching) temperature of 78 o -- 80 o, hatching time takes a full 3 days (72 hours), and the free-swimming stage takes another minimum 3 3/4 days; again depending upon the temperature, whether set at 78 o or 80 o. At the 54 hour mark you saw these eggs, you can't expect to see any action yet -- this is too soon. Angel eggs, at 80 o, can still be translucent at 48 hours and yet be infertile. At 54 hours though, you can be assured that these eggs are fertile, especially at 84 > o, > > > yet > > > > it's > > > > > > > > > still too soon for them to hatch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whoa, I just scrolled down to my reply to your last message. Shoot me and put me out of my misery! I just noticed I used the wrong numbers when I intended on writing 3 days -- in hours. I have no idea what I was thinking of when I wrote 36 hours as the 3 day hatching time that it takes Angelfish eggs to develop to this stage, as it should have read 72 hours, but be assured that it takes a full 3 DAYS (72 HOURS) for these eggs to hatch at 80 o. Apologies for any confusion here, I should have put brain in gear when typing < g >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray... I thought eggs hatched from 48 to 60 hrs given a temp of or more. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ I'm at 84 so had expectations I'd be seeing some action by now.. now at 54 hrs approx. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ But.. if they are still translucent that means they were fertilized else they'd be turning white... Right or wrong assumption... Bill in Va.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 6:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > They often do choose the intake tubes to spawn on. As long as they're not in a direct line with -- or in too close proximity of -- the filter's outlet, the odds are good that the eggs are viable, or at least part of them. Then too, it somewhat depends on how close the male follows up on the slate. No matter 48 hours though, as even this much elapsed time having translucent eggs can still yield a bunch of opaque and fungusing eggs on the third day. It's just that the water is extremely low in fungus spore count. Takes closer to a full 36 hours to hatch, but then, it depends a lot on the temperature. Lots of luck. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My very experience male is now on his second "go-around"with his lady friend. Unfortunately they chose the intake an a big hob as their spawning site. ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ It's been over 48 hrs and the eggs are still looking viable. > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ They have been very protective parents in 125G with about 16 more adult angels... (They have somewhat declared that approx 40G of that end of the tank is THEIRS!... I > > suspect that the proximity of the outflow of the HOB may have influenced the fertilization effort but then I THINK the eggs wouldn't have looked this viable after 48+ hrs? > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ They are still translucent and hoping to see some action in the next 10 16 hrs? > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ Any input on my perceptions? > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ 1st time Angel breeder. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, August 8, 2011 3:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â 'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢Ã Æ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ > > > > > > > > > > > R, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You obviously had to remove either the lead or the slate that the parents used to spawn on 3 days ago. If you didn't have a funguscide or didn't want to use one, then why didn't you tell us about this spawning when it occurred instead of waiting until now? We could have advised you how to save many more of the fry as they hatched -- although at least 13 is alright for starters; this will give you some experience in raising them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyhow, whatever you had the parents used for a spawning site -- plant leaf or slate -- whenever you remove this to another tank for hatching without the parents, you should turn the slate (or leaf) around so that the eggs will be on the underside of the spawning site. This way, as they hatch, they will hang down away from the fungused mass on their adhesive threads which they hang from by their heads. If the slate is positioned the same way it was in the parents' tank, when the eggs hatch the fry can do nothing except sit in the midst of all the fungusing unfertilized eggs. The encroaching fungus can even overwhelm the fry and cut off their oxygen supply/water flow, which of course kills them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The best "medicine" to prevent the eggs from fungusing is Acriflavin, either sold under that name by Korden or sold as Liquid Fungus Cure by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, you don't ordinarily have a fungus problerm in your tank; it's normal for unfertilized eggs to fungus, and perhaps spread to weakened edveloping eggs that get killed off from the fungus' presence. The parents don't allow fungus to develop. As soon as they spot any bad eggs, they remove (eat) them one by one -- and only the basd eggs -- if they are good parents that have learned how to raise their fry. Parents that eat whole spawns, such as what yours has done have not yet learned how to care for their eggs/fry. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if their spawning site was anywhere near the filter outlet, the water current will wash away the male's milt before it has a chance to fertilize the eggs. Then, even though it may still be in the water > > > > > > > > > > > and return to the eggs with the circulation, the eggs' window of time to be fertilized has closed and won't allow for any fertilization to take place after a short period of time; besides which, at this point the male's milt would be too dilluted to be very effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I removed the eggs this time, but I didn't add any fungus medicine and by the time they hatched around 80% of them had turned white from fungus and a few were getting fuzzy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm counting 13 hatched so far, but a couple don't look so good. I'll keep an eye on the rest and see if I can save any more. At least 10-13 is a good number of fry to raise without getting overwhelmed!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's the best medicine to add for fungus? I've got some "Fungus Eliminator" but is there one that is safer for fry/eggs? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do I have a fungus problem in my tank? I'm wondering if that's what happened to the eggs last spawn - if the parents ate the eggs because they kept getting fungus until there were very few left so they gave up on that spawn. If you have a fungus problem in a tank, what do you do? More water changes? Is there a natural way to improve the situation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51915	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Ray.. I have strong suspicions that they use stock photo's rather than actual "on-site" specimens.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Joe, Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > joet > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > ~Kai > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51916	From: Bill	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

This is what a healthy tank of them should look like... Started with 6 three months ago.. no ferts, no CO2.  Just the right amount of fish waste I guess... Oh.. I've harvested enough to stock a few other tanks and to give some away.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:04 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball   If you take a look at this link: http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. This is what the healthy plant should look like. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Laurie, > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > approval from the group's moderators. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > >avoid any metal > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > >________________________________ > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > > reach! > > -- > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51917	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

I'm always cutting mine back-those pictures were taken just after a pruning session, if I left them unattended they would choke the pots in just a few weeks. Dawn-thanks for that link-I only thought there were 2 types of Vallis. John*<o)))< * On 11 August 2011 23:08, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > This is what a healthy tank of them should look like... Started with 6 > three months ago.. no ferts, no CO2.  Just the right amount of fish waste I > guess... Oh.. I've harvested enough to stock a few other tanks and to give > some away.  Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:04 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact > root ball > >  > If you take a look at this link: > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. > This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > Dawn > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51918	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Always good to ask about the photos before you buy. I have been on a search across the US for Synodontis petricola (not lucipinnis). There are a lot of photos used by vendors that are stolen from the internet and used without permission. What is worse, they will picture petricola but sell lucipinnis. I do not believe it is intentional, but still vendors (and hobbyists) should not use pictures found on the internet without permission and definitely should use picture of the actual fish or parents they are selling. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 3:37 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus Ray.. I have strong suspicions that they use stock photo's rather than actual "on-site" specimens. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@... <mailto:sevenspringss%40wmconnect.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus Joe, Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > joet > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >  > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > ~Kai > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51919	From: Morgana	Date: 8/11/2011
Subject: Trouble getting my guppies to breed

I have a question for the group. I have 3 guppies. 1 male and two female. They've been in the tank for about a month now, and still not breeding. Temp – 27 – 28* PH – 7.0 Niterates – 0ppm Niterites – 0ppm Ammonia – 0.5ppm There are both live and plastic plants in there, and there's also a couple of bristlenose catfish. There's also swordtails. Same ratio as the guppies. What can I do to improve my chances of getting fry? Thanks Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51920	From: haecklers	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble getting my guppies to breed

Young female guppies may only give birth to around 7 fry. Sometimes the fry aren't active at first. It could be they did have fry and the swordtails ate them before they became alert enough to swim away. Guppies don't often eat their own fry but swordtails have no inhibitions about eating fry. I have very large females who give birth to 50 or so now and the gourami eat all but 2-5 of them as they're born. In the angelfish tank they eat every last one before I get to see them. If you want some fry remove the female when she starts looking fat in the body. A day or two before they give birth their bodies look kind of squared off - more rectangular than the usual oval. You want to remove them before that happens so they aren't too stressed when they give birth. Those net breeders are death traps and I don't recommend them. You'd be better off putting her in a large fish bowl with a plant and doing daily water changes until she gives birth. For the fry to be able to find the things they eat between feedings from humans they need infusoria and algae - best source would be for you to include some of the plastic plants and substrate from the current tank, which probably has algae and diatoms on it. The females can store sperm from the male for around 6 months so they can keep having fry every month or so even away from him. The males try harder to breed just before the female gives birth, too. The new sperm is more likely to fertilize the new eggs around that time, or so I've read. It is a thrill to see those tiny baby fish for the first time. :) Good luck! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Morgana" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > I have a question for the group. > > I have 3 guppies. 1 male and two female. > They've been in the tank for about a month now, and still not breeding. > > Temp – 27 – 28* > PH – 7.0 > Niterates – 0ppm > Niterites – 0ppm > Ammonia – 0.5ppm > > There are both live and plastic plants in there, and there's also a couple of bristlenose catfish. > There's also swordtails. Same ratio as the guppies. > What can I do to improve my chances of getting fry? > > Thanks > Lisa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51921	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Bill, That makes sense! The fish in these pics look too far advanced in their development to be troublesome of their own accord, and appear to be well developed strains seemingly with good genetic make up. If these fishes in the photos shown were to fold up within a couple of weeks, it would seem next to impossible to develop them to the present state they display. For a seller to use someone else's photos rather tham pics of their own fish is very deceiving, whether intentional or not. It would seem though, unless they have no photographic facilities (read: camera!), that they should be proud enough of their own stock to want to show it, unless the quality of their fish is just not there. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I have strong suspicions that they use stock photo's rather than actual "on-site" specimens.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > joet > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > > > > >   > > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51922	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Hey Guys

Welcome to the the group, Abbyliscious88. Hope you find this List enjoyable and informative. Don't hesitate to post if you have any fishy questions. Let us know what you're keeping, presently. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "abbyliscious88" <abbyliscious88@...> wrote: > > Toatally New Here ..If im on Fillme in as to whats new .. they call me abbyliscious88 on my messenger >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51923	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Or they could just be lazy.  LOL.. But really, if you look at the depth and width of their stock-list, it would be a full time job taking photo's, doing transfers, updating the web-site and posting the update.  I'm pretty sure that with their: purchase cost, receiving labor, QT efforts, DOA rates, holding costs, on-going equip maint/expense, stock-picking (for new orders outbound), packing and shipping, the margins start to get a bit tight.   That's why I prefer to go thru personal breeders or well known commercial discus specialist like Hans (Haven't made the plunge there yet).. Bill  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 7:52 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Bill, That makes sense! The fish in these pics look too far advanced in their development to be troublesome of their own accord, and appear to be well developed strains seemingly with good genetic make up. If these fishes in the photos shown were to fold up within a couple of weeks, it would seem next to impossible to develop them to the present state they display. For a seller to use someone else's photos rather tham pics of their own fish is very deceiving, whether intentional or not. It would seem though, unless they have no photographic facilities (read: camera!), that they should be proud enough of their own stock to want to show it, unless the quality of their fish is just not there. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I have strong suspicions that they use stock photo's rather than actual "on-site" specimens.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2011 2:45 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > joet > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Kai... my momma taught me "If ya can't say something good about someone, don't say anything".. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2011 9:42 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > > > > >   > > > I've never bought from these guys but I drool at their discus all the time: http://somethingsphishy.com/ My favorite Siam Yellows are on sale for $20 apiece. DROOOOOOOOOL! > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51924	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Trouble getting my guppies to breed

Here are some tips I've found greatly increase mating. Add more males than females. Do more pwc and keep parameters good. Feed them well. Vary it and try to feed them live food too. Add a real plant if you don't have it, they like to hover around them while birthing. Oh and keep the water in the low 70s and keep it consistent. that's all I can think of but I have alot of luck with frequent pregnancies and lots of fry. bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 10:29:12 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Trouble getting my guppies to breed Young female guppies may only give birth to around 7 fry. Sometimes the fry aren't active at first. It could be they did have fry and the swordtails ate them before they became alert enough to swim away. Guppies don't often eat their own fry but swordtails have no inhibitions about eating fry. I have very large females who give birth to 50 or so now and the gourami eat all but 2-5 of them as they're born. In the angelfish tank they eat every last one before I get to see them. If you want some fry remove the female when she starts looking fat in the body. A day or two before they give birth their bodies look kind of squared off - more rectangular than the usual oval. You want to remove them before that happens so they aren't too stressed when they give birth. Those net breeders are death traps and I don't recommend them. You'd be better off putting her in a large fish bowl with a plant and doing daily water changes until she gives birth. For the fry to be able to find the things they eat between feedings from humans they need infusoria and algae - best source would be for you to include some of the plastic plants and substrate from the current tank, which probably has algae and diatoms on it. The females can store sperm from the male for around 6 months so they can keep having fry every month or so even away from him. The males try harder to breed just before the female gives birth, too. The new sperm is more likely to fertilize [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51925	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Hey Guys

Hi Ray, Unless I hear differently I think this is a spammer. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 5:00 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Hey Guys Welcome to the the group, Abbyliscious88. Hope you find this List enjoyable and informative. Don't hesitate to post if you have any fishy questions. Let us know what you're keeping, presently. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "abbyliscious88" <abbyliscious88@...> wrote: > > Toatally New Here ..If im on Fillme in as to whats new .. they call me abbyliscious88 on my messenger >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51926	From: joe t	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Hi, Ray: As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. joe t PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > joet

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51927	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

I enjoyed your interesting link to this plant site, even though it has the touch of commercialization (Tropica). Even in viewing the various Vallisneria species pics here, I would hesitate to call the bottom end of these plants "bulbs" although I do see some sites make this reference. Most commonly, on Vallisneria this is called the "Crown," as distinguished from the green chlorophyll-laden leafy part as being white and it should not be buried in the substrate. Reading over Tropica'a outline of the Vallisneria plants they work with, I still see some controversy as to full Val species status and varieties of other Val species. As an example, the Vallisneria nana that Tropica writes as a species has been universally known as Vallisneria spiralis forma nana --a variety of V. spiralis. Likewise, with Tropica's reference to V. americana (gigantea) -- this plant has been universally known as the species V. gigantea. I do find the V. spiralis "Tiger" and the V. americana "Mini Twister" to be very nice, new developments. V. spiralis has a number of other variants not grown by Tropica which deserve mention. Among those are V. spiralis forma portugalensis (with tightly twisted leaves), V. spiralis forma pusilla and V. spiralis forma grqacilis. Then, there is V. asiatica (syn. V. torta) and V. tropicalis; there are about 20 Vallisneria species in all. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > If you take a look at this link: > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Laurie, > > > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but > > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & > > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy > > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but > > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish > > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a > > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > > approval from the group's moderators. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > > >avoid any metal > > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@> > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > > > reach! > > > -- > > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51928	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Hi Joe, Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > Hi, Ray: > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > joe t > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > joet >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51929	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Hi Joe, Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > Hi, Ray: > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > joe t > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > joet > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51930	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals!  LOL... Thanks for the additional input. As stated before, I have great success at vals.. all I can reconnize is "tall ones" and shorter ones....Tks for the bit of education. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:20 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball   I enjoyed your interesting link to this plant site, even though it has the touch of commercialization (Tropica). Even in viewing the various Vallisneria species pics here, I would hesitate to call the bottom end of these plants "bulbs" although I do see some sites make this reference. Most commonly, on Vallisneria this is called the "Crown," as distinguished from the green chlorophyll-laden leafy part as being white and it should not be buried in the substrate. Reading over Tropica'a outline of the Vallisneria plants they work with, I still see some controversy as to full Val species status and varieties of other Val species. As an example, the Vallisneria nana that Tropica writes as a species has been universally known as Vallisneria spiralis forma nana --a variety of V. spiralis. Likewise, with Tropica's reference to V. americana (gigantea) -- this plant has been universally known as the species V. gigantea. I do find the V. spiralis "Tiger" and the V. americana "Mini Twister" to be very nice, new developments. V. spiralis has a number of other variants not grown by Tropica which deserve mention. Among those are V. spiralis forma portugalensis (with tightly twisted leaves), V. spiralis forma pusilla and V. spiralis forma grqacilis. Then, there is V. asiatica (syn. V. torta) and V. tropicalis; there are about 20 Vallisneria species in all. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > If you take a look at this link: > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Laurie, > > > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but > > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & > > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy > > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but > > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish > > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a > > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > > approval from the group's moderators. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > > >avoid any metal > > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@> > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > > > reach! > > > -- > > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51931	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

-----Original Message----- From: jett07002@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 11:18 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus Hi, Ray: As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. joe t PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51932	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I will try this again. Have not spoken to Lenny in quite sometime but he is on another list that few of us here are on and from what I can tell is doing well. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: jett07002@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Aug 12, 2011 11:18 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus Hi, Ray: As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. joe t PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > joet #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #AOLMsgPart_2_28e27175-859a-4d42-b695-814e647258a6 #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51933	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Molly

I have a 75 gallon with about 10 neons, 10 red fin something, maybe a milder tetra, an angel about 4 inches now, a dwarf gourami whose about 5 inches, four small platys and one very large black molly female. I love black mollies but last time I set up my aquarium I had so many of them I just got the female this time. She looked a little pregnant when I got her several months ago. The water is crystal clear, they all get frozen food every other day and no one has died so I think conditions are good. The stats are good for nitrates, ammonia, etc. I add some aquarium salt every couple months for the molly. Anyway, she has continued to just look more and more pregnant every week. So much so I felt bad for her, wondered if she's just filled with eggs or something, and a got a male molly to do his part of the job, and in a couple more days I'll move him to a different tank where there are no other mollies. So my question is: does that make any sense, that she could swell with eggs and just be kind of waiting for fertilization, or before she could possibly swell does there need to be a male involved? She's active and seems happy, no fin problems like dropsy.  Thanks Rick -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51934	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I float 15 minutes and then net the fish out of the bag and into the tank. Of course all water parameters are matched first. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of joe t Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:18 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus Hi, Ray: As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. joe t PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > joet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51935	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Bill, You were told part of this story correctly -- when fish are in transit, their metabolism still continues . . . unless they're tranquilized, in which case their metabolism slows down (although still continues slowly). We'll forget about tranquilized shipments for now though, and just concern ourselves with "normal" shipments. Sure, their waste is going to build up since they're living organisms and their metabolism promotes waste -- and there is no nitrogen cycle in fish shipment bags to convert it to nitrate. Likewise, with their respiration; it produces a build up of CO2, even though their water is fortunately saturated with oxygen (having a layer of pure oxygen over the water surface). As I stated in a recent post today, this shipping water will tend to turn acid if enough CO2 builds up, as it will create Carbonic Acid. Now, getting to the other part of this story -- NO, by opening the bag, it WILL NOT suddenly turn the waste into ammonia. Animals already create the waste product, ammonia in their cells as waste. This waste (ammonia) is carried to the liver where it's converted (combined with CO2) into urea. Waste as a result of metabolism in fish (or any other animal) and in addition to gaseous CO2, is both solid (feces) and liquid (urea). Urea is essentially ammonia and is constantly being given off by fish. When urea is exposed to water, it converts back into Total Ammonia (a combination of Ammonium and Free Ammonia in the presence of water) via hydrolysis. Exposure to air doesn't suddenly convert their waste into ammonia as the ammonia is already there. It all depends on how basic the water is, as to how much Free Ammonia is being release vs how much Ammonium is being retained as such. As this water during shipping is ever-tending to drop in pH due to carbonic acid being built up, all of the Ammonia will be in the form of relatively harmless Ammonium at a temperature compatible to tropical fishes. (Note: temperature also plays a part in how much Free Ammonia is released -- when conditions are there to release it). As we already know, transported fish enclosed in a bag of a relatively small amount of water should be transferred to clean, waste-free water as soon as is practicable. This transfer is only practicable after the differences in water parameters of temperature, pH and hardness differences are allowed to be accustomed to (acclimated to) by the fishes, albeit, without subjecting these fishes to increases of pH beyond which toxic levels of Free-Ammonia are released (the higher the pH and to a lesser extentent, the higher the temperature, the more Ammonia will be released from the Total Ammonia). By this, it can be seen that if the new tank's water has a pH of 7.8, and the bag water is pH 6.8 but high in Total Ammonia, that the pH cannot be increased in the bag at a faster rate than the Total Ammonia can be disposed of. Along with this, a sufficient amount of mixed bag water MUST be disposed of before each new addition of tank water is added to the bag at a rate large enough to keep the Total Ammonia level problem-free of Free Ammonia release in quantities exceeding toxic levels. THIS is the danger -- not exposure to air. If it is incorrectly deemed that the fish are acclimated sufficiently, and are released into the new tank (having a pH beyond which will release sufficient Free Ammonia as to become toxic) including releasing the bag water in the tank -- containing a high level of otherwise harmless Ammonium -- the sudden release of a high level of Free Ammonia may well be more than just toxic, it may be lethal. But the potential problem starts when first opening the bag and mixing (and disposing) of the bag water at the proper rates -- and monitoring the pH and temperature. I've seen fish wholesalers unsuspecting of high levels of Total Ammonia in the bag, release the fish AND their water into their holding tank after they were acclimated, only to have this water turn toxic to the fish when the holding tank water's pH was high enough to convert too large of a level of Ammonium into Ammonia that was built up in the bag during transit. Result -- a complete wipe-out. One thing (the first thing) that should be done after testing the shipping bag for TOTAL AMMONIA is to add an ammonia converter/water conditioner (such as Prime or Amquel+)if the test results are high, which will prevent the release of Free Ammonia -- converting it back to Ammonium regardless of the pH. Don't rush the acclimation process just to get the fish out of the transport bags. Also, if your holding tank is acid, any Ammonium present in the (usually-at-least-somewhat-acid) shipping water will remain as Ammonium and there's no rush at all to be concerned about. I say -- "usually-at-least-somewhat-acid" not only because any Carbonic Acid (from CO2) will lower the pH, but if the water were alkaline/basic and the Ammonium level were high, it would no longer be just Ammonium but instead Ammonia too, and with a bag of dead fish because of it. If the fish come in alive and well, in pH's approaching 8.0, you know there can't be very much Ammonia present. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. > Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Hi Joe, > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > joe t > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > > > joet > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51936	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Hi Ray, My Vallis have been potted & re-potted from the same stock for about 5 years now, I used to have straight & twisted leaf varieties but the twisted ones tended to straighten-out after a few years for some reason. The tightly twisted leaf variation you mention sounds very nice although I haven't seen any in the UK-I wonder if they are only available in the US? John*<o)))< * On 12 August 2011 22:41, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals! > � LOL... Thanks for the additional input. As stated before, I have great > success at vals.. all I can reconnize is "tall ones" and shorter ones....Tks > for the bit of education. Bill in Va.� > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:20 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact > root ball > > � > I enjoyed your interesting link to this plant site, even though it has the > touch of commercialization (Tropica). Even in viewing the various > Vallisneria species pics here, I would hesitate to call the bottom end of > these plants "bulbs" although I do see some sites make this reference. Most > commonly, on Vallisneria this is called the "Crown," as distinguished from > the green chlorophyll-laden leafy part as being white and it should not be > buried in the substrate. > > Reading over Tropica'a outline of the Vallisneria plants they work with, I > still see some controversy as to full Val species status and varieties of > other Val species. As an example, the Vallisneria nana that Tropica writes > as a species has been universally known as Vallisneria spiralis forma nana > --a variety of V. spiralis. Likewise, with Tropica's reference to V. > americana (gigantea) -- this plant has been universally known as the species > V. gigantea. > > I do find the V. spiralis "Tiger" and the V. americana "Mini Twister" to be > very nice, new developments. V. spiralis has a number of other variants not > grown by Tropica which deserve mention. Among those are V. spiralis forma > portugalensis (with tightly twisted leaves), V. spiralis forma pusilla and > V. spiralis forma grqacilis. Then, there is V. asiatica (syn. V. torta) and > V. tropicalis; there are about 20 Vallisneria species in all. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > If you take a look at this link: > > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. > This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Laurie, > > > > > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant > but > > > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial > & > > > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely > destroy > > > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant > but > > > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your > fish > > > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've > uploaded a > > > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > > > approval from the group's moderators. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > > > >avoid any metal > > > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@> > > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a > hard > > > > reach! > > > > -- > > > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51937	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Angels are free-swimming!

Day 5 of hatch... the fry are free-swimming!.. at least some of them.... Can't even begin to count the numbers at this time... It's so neat to see momma chasing them around... collecting them in her mouth... 3 or 4 per sentry effort, migrate back to the brood holding site and spit them out one by one...!.... Can ya tell this is my 1st spawn in over 20 some years!... This old man is acting like a lil kid on Christmas morning... Bill in Va.  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51938	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Bill, No, sorry to say, I don't know all that much about Vals. No one can know everything, and for this -- while I remembered some of the species only because I've grown them -- I had to resort to my library to find what else I was looking for. BTW, of the approximately 20 species of Val, most have never been in the aquarium trade. The two most common we'll find in LFS's are (common names) Corkscrew Val and Giant (or "Jungle") Val. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals!  LOL... Thanks for the additional input. As stated before, I have great success at vals.. all I can reconnize is "tall ones" and shorter ones....Tks for the bit of education. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:20 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball > > >   > I enjoyed your interesting link to this plant site, even though it has the touch of commercialization (Tropica). Even in viewing the various Vallisneria species pics here, I would hesitate to call the bottom end of these plants "bulbs" although I do see some sites make this reference. Most commonly, on Vallisneria this is called the "Crown," as distinguished from the green chlorophyll-laden leafy part as being white and it should not be buried in the substrate. > > Reading over Tropica'a outline of the Vallisneria plants they work with, I still see some controversy as to full Val species status and varieties of other Val species. As an example, the Vallisneria nana that Tropica writes as a species has been universally known as Vallisneria spiralis forma nana --a variety of V. spiralis. Likewise, with Tropica's reference to V. americana (gigantea) -- this plant has been universally known as the species V. gigantea. > > I do find the V. spiralis "Tiger" and the V. americana "Mini Twister" to be very nice, new developments. V. spiralis has a number of other variants not grown by Tropica which deserve mention. Among those are V. spiralis forma portugalensis (with tightly twisted leaves), V. spiralis forma pusilla and V. spiralis forma grqacilis. Then, there is V. asiatica (syn. V. torta) and V. tropicalis; there are about 20 Vallisneria species in all. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > If you take a look at this link: > > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Laurie, > > > > > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant but > > > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial & > > > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely destroy > > > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant but > > > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your fish > > > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've uploaded a > > > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > > > approval from the group's moderators. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > > > >avoid any metal > > > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@> > > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a hard > > > > reach! > > > > -- > > > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51939	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Ray.. would it be acceptable to you to post this message on my fish club forum?... Quite informative.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:05 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Bill, You were told part of this story correctly -- when fish are in transit, their metabolism still continues . . . unless they're tranquilized, in which case their metabolism slows down (although still continues slowly). We'll forget about tranquilized shipments for now though, and just concern ourselves with "normal" shipments. Sure, their waste is going to build up since they're living organisms and their metabolism promotes waste -- and there is no nitrogen cycle in fish shipment bags to convert it to nitrate. Likewise, with their respiration; it produces a build up of CO2, even though their water is fortunately saturated with oxygen (having a layer of pure oxygen over the water surface). As I stated in a recent post today, this shipping water will tend to turn acid if enough CO2 builds up, as it will create Carbonic Acid. Now, getting to the other part of this story -- NO, by opening the bag, it WILL NOT suddenly turn the waste into ammonia. Animals already create the waste product, ammonia in their cells as waste. This waste (ammonia) is carried to the liver where it's converted (combined with CO2) into urea. Waste as a result of metabolism in fish (or any other animal) and in addition to gaseous CO2, is both solid (feces) and liquid (urea). Urea is essentially ammonia and is constantly being given off by fish. When urea is exposed to water, it converts back into Total Ammonia (a combination of Ammonium and Free Ammonia in the presence of water) via hydrolysis. Exposure to air doesn't suddenly convert their waste into ammonia as the ammonia is already there. It all depends on how basic the water is, as to how much Free Ammonia is being release vs how much Ammonium is being retained as such. As this water during shipping is ever-tending to drop in pH due to carbonic acid being built up, all of the Ammonia will be in the form of relatively harmless Ammonium at a temperature compatible to tropical fishes. (Note: temperature also plays a part in how much Free Ammonia is released -- when conditions are there to release it). As we already know, transported fish enclosed in a bag of a relatively small amount of water should be transferred to clean, waste-free water as soon as is practicable. This transfer is only practicable after the differences in water parameters of temperature, pH and hardness differences are allowed to be accustomed to (acclimated to) by the fishes, albeit, without subjecting these fishes to increases of pH beyond which toxic levels of Free-Ammonia are released (the higher the pH and to a lesser extentent, the higher the temperature, the more Ammonia will be released from the Total Ammonia). By this, it can be seen that if the new tank's water has a pH of 7.8, and the bag water is pH 6.8 but high in Total Ammonia, that the pH cannot be increased in the bag at a faster rate than the Total Ammonia can be disposed of. Along with this, a sufficient amount of mixed bag water MUST be disposed of before each new addition of tank water is added to the bag at a rate large enough to keep the Total Ammonia level problem-free of Free Ammonia release in quantities exceeding toxic levels. THIS is the danger -- not exposure to air. If it is incorrectly deemed that the fish are acclimated sufficiently, and are released into the new tank (having a pH beyond which will release sufficient Free Ammonia as to become toxic) including releasing the bag water in the tank -- containing a high level of otherwise harmless Ammonium -- the sudden release of a high level of Free Ammonia may well be more than just toxic, it may be lethal. But the potential problem starts when first opening the bag and mixing (and disposing) of the bag water at the proper rates -- and monitoring the pH and temperature. I've seen fish wholesalers unsuspecting of high levels of Total Ammonia in the bag, release the fish AND their water into their holding tank after they were acclimated, only to have this water turn toxic to the fish when the holding tank water's pH was high enough to convert too large of a level of Ammonium into Ammonia that was built up in the bag during transit. Result -- a complete wipe-out. One thing (the first thing) that should be done after testing the shipping bag for TOTAL AMMONIA is to add an ammonia converter/water conditioner (such as Prime or Amquel+)if the test results are high, which will prevent the release of Free Ammonia -- converting it back to Ammonium regardless of the pH. Don't rush the acclimation process just to get the fish out of the transport bags. Also, if your holding tank is acid, any Ammonium present in the (usually-at-least-somewhat-acid) shipping water will remain as Ammonium and there's no rush at all to be concerned about. I say -- "usually-at-least-somewhat-acid" not only because any Carbonic Acid (from CO2) will lower the pH, but if the water were alkaline/basic and the Ammonium level were high, it would no longer be just Ammonium but instead Ammonia too, and with a bag of dead fish because of it. If the fish come in alive and well, in pH's approaching 8.0, you know there can't be very much Ammonia present. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. > Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Hi Joe, > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > joe t > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > > > joet > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51940	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Ray... with credits to the yahoo group and you as well of course... Bill  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:05 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   Bill, You were told part of this story correctly -- when fish are in transit, their metabolism still continues . . . unless they're tranquilized, in which case their metabolism slows down (although still continues slowly). We'll forget about tranquilized shipments for now though, and just concern ourselves with "normal" shipments. Sure, their waste is going to build up since they're living organisms and their metabolism promotes waste -- and there is no nitrogen cycle in fish shipment bags to convert it to nitrate. Likewise, with their respiration; it produces a build up of CO2, even though their water is fortunately saturated with oxygen (having a layer of pure oxygen over the water surface). As I stated in a recent post today, this shipping water will tend to turn acid if enough CO2 builds up, as it will create Carbonic Acid. Now, getting to the other part of this story -- NO, by opening the bag, it WILL NOT suddenly turn the waste into ammonia. Animals already create the waste product, ammonia in their cells as waste. This waste (ammonia) is carried to the liver where it's converted (combined with CO2) into urea. Waste as a result of metabolism in fish (or any other animal) and in addition to gaseous CO2, is both solid (feces) and liquid (urea). Urea is essentially ammonia and is constantly being given off by fish. When urea is exposed to water, it converts back into Total Ammonia (a combination of Ammonium and Free Ammonia in the presence of water) via hydrolysis. Exposure to air doesn't suddenly convert their waste into ammonia as the ammonia is already there. It all depends on how basic the water is, as to how much Free Ammonia is being release vs how much Ammonium is being retained as such. As this water during shipping is ever-tending to drop in pH due to carbonic acid being built up, all of the Ammonia will be in the form of relatively harmless Ammonium at a temperature compatible to tropical fishes. (Note: temperature also plays a part in how much Free Ammonia is released -- when conditions are there to release it). As we already know, transported fish enclosed in a bag of a relatively small amount of water should be transferred to clean, waste-free water as soon as is practicable. This transfer is only practicable after the differences in water parameters of temperature, pH and hardness differences are allowed to be accustomed to (acclimated to) by the fishes, albeit, without subjecting these fishes to increases of pH beyond which toxic levels of Free-Ammonia are released (the higher the pH and to a lesser extentent, the higher the temperature, the more Ammonia will be released from the Total Ammonia). By this, it can be seen that if the new tank's water has a pH of 7.8, and the bag water is pH 6.8 but high in Total Ammonia, that the pH cannot be increased in the bag at a faster rate than the Total Ammonia can be disposed of. Along with this, a sufficient amount of mixed bag water MUST be disposed of before each new addition of tank water is added to the bag at a rate large enough to keep the Total Ammonia level problem-free of Free Ammonia release in quantities exceeding toxic levels. THIS is the danger -- not exposure to air. If it is incorrectly deemed that the fish are acclimated sufficiently, and are released into the new tank (having a pH beyond which will release sufficient Free Ammonia as to become toxic) including releasing the bag water in the tank -- containing a high level of otherwise harmless Ammonium -- the sudden release of a high level of Free Ammonia may well be more than just toxic, it may be lethal. But the potential problem starts when first opening the bag and mixing (and disposing) of the bag water at the proper rates -- and monitoring the pH and temperature. I've seen fish wholesalers unsuspecting of high levels of Total Ammonia in the bag, release the fish AND their water into their holding tank after they were acclimated, only to have this water turn toxic to the fish when the holding tank water's pH was high enough to convert too large of a level of Ammonium into Ammonia that was built up in the bag during transit. Result -- a complete wipe-out. One thing (the first thing) that should be done after testing the shipping bag for TOTAL AMMONIA is to add an ammonia converter/water conditioner (such as Prime or Amquel+)if the test results are high, which will prevent the release of Free Ammonia -- converting it back to Ammonium regardless of the pH. Don't rush the acclimation process just to get the fish out of the transport bags. Also, if your holding tank is acid, any Ammonium present in the (usually-at-least-somewhat-acid) shipping water will remain as Ammonium and there's no rush at all to be concerned about. I say -- "usually-at-least-somewhat-acid" not only because any Carbonic Acid (from CO2) will lower the pH, but if the water were alkaline/basic and the Ammonium level were high, it would no longer be just Ammonium but instead Ammonia too, and with a bag of dead fish because of it. If the fish come in alive and well, in pH's approaching 8.0, you know there can't be very much Ammonia present. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. > Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Hi Joe, > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > joe t > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > > > joet > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51941	From: Ray	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

GO FOR IT !!! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... with credits to the yahoo group and you as well of course... Bill  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:05 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Bill, > > You were told part of this story correctly -- when fish are in transit, their metabolism still continues . . . unless they're tranquilized, in which case their metabolism slows down (although still continues slowly). We'll forget about tranquilized shipments for now though, and just concern ourselves with "normal" shipments. Sure, their waste is going to build up since they're living organisms and their metabolism promotes waste -- and there is no nitrogen cycle in fish shipment bags to convert it to nitrate. Likewise, with their respiration; it produces a build up of CO2, even though their water is fortunately saturated with oxygen (having a layer of pure oxygen over the water surface). As I stated in a recent post today, this shipping water will tend to turn acid if enough CO2 builds up, as it will create Carbonic Acid. > > Now, getting to the other part of this story -- NO, by opening the bag, it WILL NOT suddenly turn the waste into ammonia. Animals already create the waste product, ammonia in their cells as waste. This waste (ammonia) is carried to the liver where it's converted (combined with CO2) into urea. Waste as a result of metabolism in fish (or any other animal) and in addition to gaseous CO2, is both solid (feces) and liquid (urea). Urea is essentially ammonia and is constantly being given off by fish. When urea is exposed to water, it converts back into Total Ammonia (a combination of Ammonium and Free Ammonia in the presence of water) via hydrolysis. Exposure to air doesn't suddenly convert their waste into ammonia as the ammonia is already there. > > It all depends on how basic the water is, as to how much Free Ammonia is being release vs how much Ammonium is being retained as such. As this water during shipping is ever-tending to drop in pH due to carbonic acid being built up, all of the Ammonia will be in the form of relatively harmless Ammonium at a temperature compatible to tropical fishes. (Note: temperature also plays a part in how much Free Ammonia is released -- when conditions are there to release it). > > As we already know, transported fish enclosed in a bag of a relatively small amount of water should be transferred to clean, waste-free water as soon as is practicable. This transfer is only practicable after the differences in water parameters of temperature, pH and hardness differences are allowed to be accustomed to (acclimated to) by the fishes, albeit, without subjecting these fishes to increases of pH beyond which toxic levels of Free-Ammonia are released (the higher the pH and to a lesser extentent, the higher the temperature, the more Ammonia will be released from the Total Ammonia). > > By this, it can be seen that if the new tank's water has a pH of 7.8, and the bag water is pH 6.8 but high in Total Ammonia, that the pH cannot be increased in the bag at a faster rate than the Total Ammonia can be disposed of. Along with this, a sufficient amount of mixed bag water MUST be disposed of before each new addition of tank water is added to the bag at a rate large enough to keep the Total Ammonia level problem-free of Free Ammonia release in quantities exceeding toxic levels. THIS is the danger -- not exposure to air. If it is incorrectly deemed that the fish are acclimated sufficiently, and are released into the new tank (having a pH beyond which will release sufficient Free Ammonia as to become toxic) including releasing the bag water in the tank -- containing a high level of otherwise harmless Ammonium -- the sudden release of a high level of Free Ammonia may well be more than just toxic, it may be lethal. But the potential problem > starts when first opening the bag and mixing (and disposing) of the bag water at the proper rates -- and monitoring the pH and temperature. > > I've seen fish wholesalers unsuspecting of high levels of Total Ammonia in the bag, release the fish AND their water into their holding tank after they were acclimated, only to have this water turn toxic to the fish when the holding tank water's pH was high enough to convert too large of a level of Ammonium into Ammonia that was built up in the bag during transit. Result -- a complete wipe-out. > > One thing (the first thing) that should be done after testing the shipping bag for TOTAL AMMONIA is to add an ammonia converter/water conditioner (such as Prime or Amquel+)if the test results are high, which will prevent the release of Free Ammonia -- converting it back to Ammonium regardless of the pH. Don't rush the acclimation process just to get the fish out of the transport bags. Also, if your holding tank is acid, any Ammonium present in the (usually-at-least-somewhat-acid) shipping water will remain as Ammonium and there's no rush at all to be concerned about. I say -- "usually-at-least-somewhat-acid" not only because any Carbonic Acid (from CO2) will lower the pH, but if the water were alkaline/basic and the Ammonium level were high, it would no longer be just Ammonium but instead Ammonia too, and with a bag of dead fish because of it. If the fish come in alive and well, in pH's approaching 8.0, you know there can't be very much Ammonia > present. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. > > Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > Hi Joe, > > > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > > > joe t > > > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > > > > > joet > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51942	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I'll send ya the link to the thread after it's posted.  Bill in Va.  p.s. Ya might find it interesting!... The forum that is... we've only been up for less than 4 months.. we own the dot com domain and in the process of moving from forumotion.com   Bill Still in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:24 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus   GO FOR IT !!! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... with credits to the yahoo group and you as well of course... Bill  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 10:05 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > >   > Bill, > > You were told part of this story correctly -- when fish are in transit, their metabolism still continues . . . unless they're tranquilized, in which case their metabolism slows down (although still continues slowly). We'll forget about tranquilized shipments for now though, and just concern ourselves with "normal" shipments. Sure, their waste is going to build up since they're living organisms and their metabolism promotes waste -- and there is no nitrogen cycle in fish shipment bags to convert it to nitrate. Likewise, with their respiration; it produces a build up of CO2, even though their water is fortunately saturated with oxygen (having a layer of pure oxygen over the water surface). As I stated in a recent post today, this shipping water will tend to turn acid if enough CO2 builds up, as it will create Carbonic Acid. > > Now, getting to the other part of this story -- NO, by opening the bag, it WILL NOT suddenly turn the waste into ammonia. Animals already create the waste product, ammonia in their cells as waste. This waste (ammonia) is carried to the liver where it's converted (combined with CO2) into urea. Waste as a result of metabolism in fish (or any other animal) and in addition to gaseous CO2, is both solid (feces) and liquid (urea). Urea is essentially ammonia and is constantly being given off by fish. When urea is exposed to water, it converts back into Total Ammonia (a combination of Ammonium and Free Ammonia in the presence of water) via hydrolysis. Exposure to air doesn't suddenly convert their waste into ammonia as the ammonia is already there. > > It all depends on how basic the water is, as to how much Free Ammonia is being release vs how much Ammonium is being retained as such. As this water during shipping is ever-tending to drop in pH due to carbonic acid being built up, all of the Ammonia will be in the form of relatively harmless Ammonium at a temperature compatible to tropical fishes. (Note: temperature also plays a part in how much Free Ammonia is released -- when conditions are there to release it). > > As we already know, transported fish enclosed in a bag of a relatively small amount of water should be transferred to clean, waste-free water as soon as is practicable. This transfer is only practicable after the differences in water parameters of temperature, pH and hardness differences are allowed to be accustomed to (acclimated to) by the fishes, albeit, without subjecting these fishes to increases of pH beyond which toxic levels of Free-Ammonia are released (the higher the pH and to a lesser extentent, the higher the temperature, the more Ammonia will be released from the Total Ammonia). > > By this, it can be seen that if the new tank's water has a pH of 7.8, and the bag water is pH 6.8 but high in Total Ammonia, that the pH cannot be increased in the bag at a faster rate than the Total Ammonia can be disposed of. Along with this, a sufficient amount of mixed bag water MUST be disposed of before each new addition of tank water is added to the bag at a rate large enough to keep the Total Ammonia level problem-free of Free Ammonia release in quantities exceeding toxic levels. THIS is the danger -- not exposure to air. If it is incorrectly deemed that the fish are acclimated sufficiently, and are released into the new tank (having a pH beyond which will release sufficient Free Ammonia as to become toxic) including releasing the bag water in the tank -- containing a high level of otherwise harmless Ammonium -- the sudden release of a high level of Free Ammonia may well be more than just toxic, it may be lethal. But the potential problem > starts when first opening the bag and mixing (and disposing) of the bag water at the proper rates -- and monitoring the pH and temperature. > > I've seen fish wholesalers unsuspecting of high levels of Total Ammonia in the bag, release the fish AND their water into their holding tank after they were acclimated, only to have this water turn toxic to the fish when the holding tank water's pH was high enough to convert too large of a level of Ammonium into Ammonia that was built up in the bag during transit. Result -- a complete wipe-out. > > One thing (the first thing) that should be done after testing the shipping bag for TOTAL AMMONIA is to add an ammonia converter/water conditioner (such as Prime or Amquel+)if the test results are high, which will prevent the release of Free Ammonia -- converting it back to Ammonium regardless of the pH. Don't rush the acclimation process just to get the fish out of the transport bags. Also, if your holding tank is acid, any Ammonium present in the (usually-at-least-somewhat-acid) shipping water will remain as Ammonium and there's no rush at all to be concerned about. I say -- "usually-at-least-somewhat-acid" not only because any Carbonic Acid (from CO2) will lower the pH, but if the water were alkaline/basic and the Ammonium level were high, it would no longer be just Ammonium but instead Ammonia too, and with a bag of dead fish because of it. If the fish come in alive and well, in pH's approaching 8.0, you know there can't be very much Ammonia > present. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > I've received one bit of advice and am not sure how it fits in.  I was told the following:  "When fish are in transport for any length of time, there will  naturally be an increase of fish by-product...read waste.  Until that water comes into contact with fresh air, there is no conversion into ammonia."  It was suggested to me to get the fish out of the transport bags as soon as possible.. That the sudden transfer of waste into an ammonia laden water column would be more harmful than a shift in water chemistry. > > Where is that advice wrong?  Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:54 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > >   > > Hi Joe, > > > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > > > joe t > > > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look like quality stock. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years and many a spawn. > > > > > > > > > > joet > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51943	From: Bill	Date: 8/12/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Ray.. here's the link to the post on our forum.  http://aquaticfriendsunited.forumotion.com/t472-acclimating-your-fish#3201 Bill  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51944	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: New Photos

Hi Everyone, I've added a few more images of my set-up to the 'John's Fish' photo album as there was some interest in the couple I posted for the Vallis thread. John<o)))< [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51945	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Hi Donna, For a small bag, 15 minutes should be adequate to equalize the temperature; perhaps up to 25 minutes for a larger bag such as what Joe T may receive. I'd like to mention here though, while I think of it, that while I see Joe's method as being careful and thorough, the time element for the entire procedure is excessive. It's not necessary to float a bag for an hour to equalize the temperature, neither is it necessary to continue exchange water in the bag for the next several hours to acclimate the fish to the tank's parameters. While we want to give the fish adequate time to adjust, we don't want them in the bag any longer than necessary even though most of any ammonia build up in the bag should be at an absolute minimum after much water exchanging. Just being confined causes stress on the fish -- which will be seen at any fish auction in their colors fading out so much from the norm, from just sitting in the bags. Ammonia build up in Rift Lake Cichlid bags is rarely an issue as long as the fish are re-homed the same day. Most Rift Lake hobbyists are responsible enough to use more than ample sized bags (with more than an ample amount of clean water) for these fish, knowing that even small amounts of ammonia can be toxic in a pH of 9.0 -- but it should still be tested for when received and a good water conditioner should be added to the bag then during acclimation if there's any present. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I float 15 minutes and then net the fish out of the bag and into the tank. > Of course all water parameters are matched first. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of joe t > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 2:18 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Angels spawned again - now discus > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of > the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it > started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty > strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his > responses for quite a while.) > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it > as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, > I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as > Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have > to say. > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I > ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now > you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two > (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as > close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks > they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as > hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box > filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour > with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an > airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at > the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow > the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are > porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you > put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so > often. > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a > shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is > getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the > container water in the tank. > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and > into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed > to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a > similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be > living......hopefully for quite a while. > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am > sure I probably have forgotten something. > > joe t > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print > with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even > thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. As you've kept Angels and > Discus for many years, I am presuming that you know how to properly > acclimate the new fish after you float them, and to exchange tank water with > their bag water over a good period of time. If not, please enlighten us on > how you go about adding new fish to your tank, just to establish your > methods. Could just be that this "SomethingsPhishy" outfit may be just a > distributor, and that their fish are being subjected to two large > acclimations in too short of time -- one acclimation when they reach this > possible distributor and a second acclimation after reaching the customer -- > sometimes with wide swings in pH, and GH, etc. The pics of their fish look > like quality stock. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > > > Sorry to say I have to agree with Bill in Va. on this one. I pruchased > from somethingsphishy a while back, ...gave quite a bill to myself, too. > They came packed each in their own vessel and I thought I was happy till > they all died within about a week and a half, two weeks. Thier fault or mine > I cannot say. But it is strange I've kept angels and discus for many years > and many a spawn. > > > > > > joet > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51946	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Hi John, I'm not sure what Val species are available in the States right now, as I'm not presently growing any, but it wouldn't surprise me if there are more varieties grown on this side of the pond since there's a nation specialty group in the U.S. called the Aquatic Gardeners. Still, as I stated, most of the 20 or so species of Val are just not in the hobby, or at least not generally so. Some years back, even before some of these fancy varieties such as V. americana "Tiger" and V. spiralis "Mini-Twister" became available, we had what was referred to as "Italian Val," a fairly well twisted corkscrew-type Valisneria. I don't know if this was just another name for V. americana americana or if it was akin to V. spiralis portugalensis, as could be assumed if it actually came from Italy while the other apparently came from Portugal. I had always assummed that "Italian Val" was the same as "Corkscrew Val" though -- V. americana americana -- but it always stayed quite twisted. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > My Vallis have been potted & re-potted from the same stock for about 5 > years now, I used to have straight & twisted leaf varieties but the twisted > ones tended to straighten-out after a few years for some reason. The tightly > twisted leaf variation you mention sounds very nice although I haven't seen > any in the UK-I wonder if they are only available in the US? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 12 August 2011 22:41, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals! > >  LOL... Thanks for the additional input. As stated before, I have great > > success at vals.. all I can reconnize is "tall ones" and shorter ones....Tks > > for the bit of education. Bill in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, August 12, 2011 4:20 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact > > root ball > > > >  > > I enjoyed your interesting link to this plant site, even though it has the > > touch of commercialization (Tropica). Even in viewing the various > > Vallisneria species pics here, I would hesitate to call the bottom end of > > these plants "bulbs" although I do see some sites make this reference. Most > > commonly, on Vallisneria this is called the "Crown," as distinguished from > > the green chlorophyll-laden leafy part as being white and it should not be > > buried in the substrate. > > > > Reading over Tropica'a outline of the Vallisneria plants they work with, I > > still see some controversy as to full Val species status and varieties of > > other Val species. As an example, the Vallisneria nana that Tropica writes > > as a species has been universally known as Vallisneria spiralis forma nana > > --a variety of V. spiralis. Likewise, with Tropica's reference to V. > > americana (gigantea) -- this plant has been universally known as the species > > V. gigantea. > > > > I do find the V. spiralis "Tiger" and the V. americana "Mini Twister" to be > > very nice, new developments. V. spiralis has a number of other variants not > > grown by Tropica which deserve mention. Among those are V. spiralis forma > > portugalensis (with tightly twisted leaves), V. spiralis forma pusilla and > > V. spiralis forma gracilis. Then, there is V. asiatica (syn. V. torta) and > > V. tropicalis; there are about 20 Vallisneria species in all. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > If you take a look at this link: > > > http://www.tropica.com/advising/plant-articles/vallisneria.aspx > > > > > > It shows the individual plants, the bulb end and root structure from it. > > This is what the healthy plant should look like. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Laurie, > > > > > > > > Another option is to use aquatic growing substrate, I use Tetra Plant > > but > > > > there are loads of different ones. I also grow Vallis-I found by trial > > & > > > > error that this is one of the few plants my Goldies won't completely > > destroy > > > > in a few days. Set them in regular clay pots as you would a house plant > > but > > > > make sure to cover the surface of the substrate with pebbles or your > > fish > > > > will distribute it all over your tank & make an awful mess. I've > > uploaded a > > > > couple of pictures to the 'John's Fish' photo album, currently waiting > > > > approval from the group's moderators. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 10 August 2011 03:53, Charles Harrison <charles@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your substrata is not deep enough to hold down the root ball. Rock is > > > > > about as heavy as things get that are not toxic to the occupants of > > > > > the aquarium. If it doesn't stay down, put it in a pint deli plastic > > > > > container and cover the root ball with gravel. Cover it with 2 to 3 > > > > > inches of gravel. It'll stay down. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >You could use a small rock to which you could tie it. Better to > > > > > >avoid any metal > > > > > >inside water, they do have adverse effect on fishes. > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > > > >From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@> > > > > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com; tropicalfishclub@yahoogroups.com; > > > > > >raleighaquariumsociety@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >Sent: Wed, 10 August, 2011 5:29:28 AM > > > > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with > > > > > >compact root ball > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >My BF (who never had an aquarium) freaked out when I said I was > > > > > >looking for some sheet lead I could cut into oversized strips to > > > > > >weight down this HUGE floating plant. It's all I used growing up, > > > > > >lead strips to keep plants from floating. They unplant themselves SO > > > > > >easily, and even with tongs, 24" deep, inside a shelf unit, is a > > hard > > > > > reach! > > > > > -- > > > > > I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines > > > > > to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51947	From: laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

>>Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals! LOL... Um, in addition to activities, Ray obviously enjoys using his mind. What's wrong with THAT? laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51948	From: haecklers	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51949	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball

Laurie... the LOL's bracketing the SATIRICAL comment should have let ya know I was joking!... To quote Herman Cain:  People need to get a sense of humour!.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 9:04 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Good HEAVY weights for a BIG plant with compact root ball   >>Ray. get a freaking LIFE!...LOL.. you know way too much about vals! LOL... Um, in addition to activities, Ray obviously enjoys using his mind. What's wrong with THAT? laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, but learning to build a cistern. I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51950	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51951	From: joe t	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Hi Ray, Well, as I suspected, and you pointed out, I did forget a few things. (I was too involved with keeping it short.) I was trying to respond to to the immediate question, getting the Discus. I admit I am a bit maybe too careful but when you are paying possibly $25 to $60 or maybe even better for a fish, I tend to be extra cautious. I would not be so "careful" if the fish were locally obtained, but I would go through a similar process. Locally, maybe the water source is the same, the fish did not have to take a long bang about journey, etc. You are very right about checking the water when opening the containers and checking your own water, etc. This is a given (for me anyway) and I just took it for granted that people do that. My Bad! :0( Again, in my attempt to keep it short my explanation fell short of my procedure. I am probably forgetting to say even more. LOL When I am going through the rigors of the process again I am sure I will be doing something and the realization will hit me that I forgot to make it part of my explanation. Oh well, that's how it goes. joe t --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Joe, > > Many thanks for outlining your method of introducing/acclimating new fish, in detail. Your response is much appreciated. Thanks for asking about Lenny, he's taking a hiatus from the group. He's going well as far as I know -- he posts on another Group that I also moderate, and it's always good to see his replies. > > Your acclimation methods look quite thorough, and I see no reason why fish under your care should secumb for any reason you've given them as I see nothing you do as being adverse to their well being. To the contrary, every step you do only serves to promote their good health. I can only surmise these fish you bought from SomethingsPhishy were (1) previously stressed from unknown circumstances, extremes of water chemistry (pH, GH, etc.) possibly being part of them, and/or (2) less than goods health when you first received them. > > You did omit two small but very important (and quite similar) procedures, which I trust (hope) was just an oversight here. Regardless of how complete the supplier gives you the needed information concerning the parameters of his water, the first thing you should do when opening his bags is to (1) test his water. At the same time (2), test your tank's water. He may not be accurate, and then also, the pH can drop during transit. I realize though, that at least his info should get you in the ballpark as to his test levels. > > While you probably have done these two relatively minor (but important) steps, please understand that I need to clarify this for the benefit of others following this thread. > > Getting to the airstones you use during this period, while they could contain bacteria -- which shows you're being quite alert -- as for them being porous and able to colonize bacteria, why don't you just dunk them overnight in the tub of an antiseptic solution (mild bleach solution) along with any other equipment you're done using and plan to transfer to another tank? > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > As you, and all the other guys - (I refer to men and women that are part of the gang as "guys" LOL)- who have been with this group, ....almost since it started, I guess..., know I do not usually respond unless I feel pretty strong about something. (BTW, is Lenny OK? I have not seen any of his responses for quite a while.) > > > > In answer to Ray; I am a bit of a "fanatic" about my fish. I try to make it as easy on them as I possibly can. Again, for the benefit of newer members, I must say as I have many times before, I am not into the technical terms as Ray and \\Steve// are. That's why I respect and like reading what they have to say. > > > > These are things I just started doing on my own. Trial and error. > > > > > When I am going to order fish I call about a week or two before I order. I ask about how they're being kept, water parameters and stuff like that. Now you can only HOPE they are not giving you some B/S but I try anyway. > > During this period --that is, before I order -- I'll set up a tank or two (depending on how many fish I intend to order) to acclimate my water as close as I can to the information I was given. These are NOT "new" tanks they are fishlessly cycled. I have them running for such occassions as hospital tanks and for new comers. They're easy to clean, etc. with box filters and the like. Bare bottoms. > > > > When new fish arrive I float the containers in the tank for about an hour with a small air stone, or even an open end hose if I do not have an airstone handy. OPEN the containers and let the fish get some fresh air at the water surface, have the airstone blowing mildly. You do not want to blow the fish out of the bag!! ;0) Also, use a clean (new) airstone. They are porous and you never know what bacteria will come out of a used one when you put it in the water. I use cheap airstones for this since I change them so often. > > > > Now over the next few hours, I'll use a small glass, about the size of a shot glass, to put water from the tank in each vessel. If the vessel is getting to full take some water out. I personally do not like putting the container water in the tank. > > > > After I have done this for a while, take the fish out of the container and into the tank. Let them rest and do not feed them. If they are too stressed to eat the food is just serving to make the water foul. > > > > After a week or two, if there are no signs of trouble, I will go through a similar process to acclimate them to the take where they will be living......hopefully for quite a while. > > > > Hope I did not completely bore you. I tried to summarize the procedure. I am sure I probably have forgotten something. > > > > joe t > > > > PS. I try to avoid using contractions since they usually come out in print with all kinds of odd characters making it very confusing to read.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51952	From: joe t	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

I agree, Ray. The fish look real nice. I have to say that I think they packed the fish well. Each fish was in a container to itself. I thought they looked pretty good when they arrived. What happened I cannot honestly say. But it made me a little gun-shy. Could it be that the containers were too small? If you decide to go ahead and order anyway, if you do not mind, keep me posted on how the fish make out. joe t > > Joe, > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. > > > > Ray > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51953	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

Go to your local lfs... Beg for some bag buddies... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:39 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???   I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51954	From: haecklers	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

I don't think the fish stores in my area use bag buddies, or oxygen for that matter. They BLOW into the bags. I know better than to do that, at least! I did order some bag buddies from Ken's Fish. Hopefully they'll get here in time. It says 1 tablet per gallon, so I guess I'll measure the water (without the fish in it) to see how much I'll use and split the pill accordingly? I don't want to OD the fish on a sedative medicine! I also saw a website that said to not feed them for 3 days prior to shipping. Isn't that a bit long? 3 days before plus 2 days in transit and one day while they acclimate could be almost a week with no food! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Go to your local lfs... Beg for some bag buddies... Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > >   > I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could > top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick > up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's > pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51955	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

I would not do less than 2 days. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? I don't think the fish stores in my area use bag buddies, or oxygen for that matter. They BLOW into the bags. I know better than to do that, at least! I did order some bag buddies from Ken's Fish. Hopefully they'll get here in time. It says 1 tablet per gallon, so I guess I'll measure the water (without the fish in it) to see how much I'll use and split the pill accordingly? I don't want to OD the fish on a sedative medicine! I also saw a website that said to not feed them for 3 days prior to shipping. Isn't that a bit long? 3 days before plus 2 days in transit and one day while they acclimate could be almost a week with no food! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Go to your local lfs... Beg for some bag buddies... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > >  > I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could > top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick > up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's > pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51956	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

2 day fast. Bill  ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 9:13 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???   I would not do less than 2 days. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 7:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? I don't think the fish stores in my area use bag buddies, or oxygen for that matter. They BLOW into the bags. I know better than to do that, at least! I did order some bag buddies from Ken's Fish. Hopefully they'll get here in time. It says 1 tablet per gallon, so I guess I'll measure the water (without the fish in it) to see how much I'll use and split the pill accordingly? I don't want to OD the fish on a sedative medicine! I also saw a website that said to not feed them for 3 days prior to shipping. Isn't that a bit long? 3 days before plus 2 days in transit and one day while they acclimate could be almost a week with no food! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Go to your local lfs... Beg for some bag buddies... Bill in Va. > > > ________________________________ > From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > >  > I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could > top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick > up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's > pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51957	From: Ray	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51958	From: Bill	Date: 8/13/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

If your fortunate enough to know someone that buy's Omaha steaks, ya can't beat their shipping containers...Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 10:12 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???   Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51959	From: haecklers	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

Thank you everyone!!! So if I'm shipping him out on Wednesday then I stop feeding him tomorrow, right? I'll check the pet stores to see if they kept any of the shipping containers around. If not, I think the Dollar Store is selling styrofoam ice chests that are about that size, I'd just need to find a box that would fit them. Kind of a shame I'm sending them so soon - they're getting ready to spawn again, but I'm up to my ears in fish fry so I guess the new owner can enjoy them. :) I've got a 10-gallon right now with around 30 electric blue fry, a little over 1/2 inch, that are fattening up quickly with the special attention they're finally getting. :) Getting them ready for a bigger tank soon. I'm so amazed by these little guys, they're really beautiful even when tiny - they get an extra load of reflectiveness for a glow that almost seems to come from inside. I waste way too much time gazing at them! I can't wait until they're bigger and I can put them all in the 55-gallon to grow out! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51960	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

Ordinarily, I would recommend your asking the recipient for what are referred to as "Box Bags." As the name would imply, they're large enough to fill the entire box. This would be perfect if you were just carrying the box a few towns over -- if the recipient was in your area -- and you could add about 3" of water to this bag, which would just about cover his back (dorsal fin being held closed). But this much water in such a large bag would cost far too much in shipping charges, unless the recipient doesn't mind the extra charges. Otherwise, you should try to get bags about 22" long by about 8" wide (10" wide, max). The extra length will allow for ample room in closing it, while fitting end to end inside the box. It will only be about half as wide as the box, so center it and fill in each side. If at all possible use 3 mil (0.003") thick bags, and use at least 2 of them, one inverted inside the other. This offers the best seal. After twisting the ends of the bags, tie them off with heavy rubber bands, using two of them on each end (one may break during transit). Use even three such bags in case the fish punctures one (or two) bags with his hard dorsal rays -- which can easily happen. DO NOT use 2 mil bags even though this may be the most commonly used bag by the LFS's, for Swordtails and Tetras, etc. The 2 mil bag is too easily punctured by large Cichlids. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, and with using 3 mil thick bags, they may still puncture it. Sometimes when they do, the inner-most bag will collapse on the fish, preventing much oxygen from reaching their water. Now you can see why using the thickest bag (within reason) you can get will help. Bags too thick are very difficult to seal well though. Usually, the LFS's just throw out the shipping boxes they receive fish in from their wholesalers, as they get them just about every week. They should be more than happy to let you have one as it builds up good customer relations. As you say "them," may I now assume that you're shipping the pair of Dempsey's? At first, I only read where you were shipping an 8" male Dempsey. If you're shipping a pair, you may want to bag them separately -- unless you're using a full-sized box bag. Even then, you could use a box bag to catch any leaks, but still bag each separately, inside of the box bag. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Thank you everyone!!! > > So if I'm shipping him out on Wednesday then I stop feeding him tomorrow, right? > > I'll check the pet stores to see if they kept any of the shipping containers around. If not, I think the Dollar Store is selling styrofoam ice chests that are about that size, I'd just need to find a box that would fit them. > > Kind of a shame I'm sending them so soon - they're getting ready to spawn again, but I'm up to my ears in fish fry so I guess the new owner can enjoy them. :) > > I've got a 10-gallon right now with around 30 electric blue fry, a little over 1/2 inch, that are fattening up quickly with the special attention they're finally getting. :) Getting them ready for a bigger tank soon. I'm so amazed by these little guys, they're really beautiful even when tiny - they get an extra load of reflectiveness for a glow that almost seems to come from inside. I waste way too much time gazing at them! > > I can't wait until they're bigger and I can put them all in the 55-gallon to grow out! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > > > > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > > > > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51961	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

If you can get the Bag Buddies from Ken's Fish in time for Wednesday, so much the better. Jungle advertises them to: Reduce Stress, Promote Slime Coat, Remove Chlorine (not that you'd have any) and harmful metals, Add Beneficial Electrolytes, Add Oxygen and Reduce Ammonia Build-Up. For further protection against ammonia build up, you could add a small square (2" square) of Poly-Filter, which many small shippers use to remove ammonia. I often see 1" Poly-Filter squares used in auction bags for fish confined all day in a small bag of water until the buyer gets home 14 hours later; it helps a lot. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I don't think the fish stores in my area use bag buddies, or oxygen for that matter. They BLOW into the bags. I know better than to do that, at least! > > I did order some bag buddies from Ken's Fish. Hopefully they'll get here in time. It says 1 tablet per gallon, so I guess I'll measure the water (without the fish in it) to see how much I'll use and split the pill accordingly? I don't want to OD the fish on a sedative medicine! > > I also saw a website that said to not feed them for 3 days prior to shipping. Isn't that a bit long? 3 days before plus 2 days in transit and one day while they acclimate could be almost a week with no food! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Go to your local lfs... Beg for some bag buddies... Bill in Va. > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: "safirezprincess@" <safirezprincess@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2011 4:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > > > > >  > > I've heard of petsmart and lbs letting you use their oxygen. Maybe you could > > top off the water in the bag with that and it would help some > > Bren > > > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > > > -----Original message----- > > From: haecklers <haecklers@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sat, Aug 13, 2011 19:56:49 GMT+00:00 > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey??? > > > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick > > up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's > > pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51962	From: Ray	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Joe, I don't know the size of the fish you bought, nor the size of the containers (bags?). If they're experiences shippers/packers, they should know what size container to use for the size fish they're shipping. If the containers looked small to you though, perhaps they were, although you need to keep in mind they most probably used oxygen when bagging (containing) them. Still. if there wasn't a large amount of water in comparison to the size of the fish, ammonia could have built up. This was one point I neglected to mention to you previously, although I did follow up on it in another thread. When checking the bag for pH after you open it, you should always check for ammonia too. Then at least, you could add a few drops of Prime (or another good water conditioner) to take care of the ammonia while you continue to acclimate them. Perhaps your fish got stressed from ammonia build up in the bag, which could account for their not holding up. This could happen if you were adding alkaline tank water with a moderate to high pH if you weren't discarding the bag water fast enough (if it had ammonia). Bag water too, can off-gas any CO2 build up once the bag is opened, resulting in a rise in pH -- which could have an adverse effect if there was ammonia present. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > I agree, Ray. The fish look real nice. I have to say that I think they packed the fish well. Each fish was in a container to itself. I thought they looked pretty good when they arrived. What happened I cannot honestly say. But it made me a little gun-shy. Could it be that the containers were too small? > > If you decide to go ahead and order anyway, if you do not mind, keep me posted on how the fish make out. > > joe t > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. > > > > > Ray > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51963	From: Bill	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

HR.. when you're ready to off-load some EBJD's, you've a waiting customer!.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2011 8:44 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???   Thank you everyone!!! So if I'm shipping him out on Wednesday then I stop feeding him tomorrow, right? I'll check the pet stores to see if they kept any of the shipping containers around. If not, I think the Dollar Store is selling styrofoam ice chests that are about that size, I'd just need to find a box that would fit them. Kind of a shame I'm sending them so soon - they're getting ready to spawn again, but I'm up to my ears in fish fry so I guess the new owner can enjoy them. :) I've got a 10-gallon right now with around 30 electric blue fry, a little over 1/2 inch, that are fattening up quickly with the special attention they're finally getting. :) Getting them ready for a bigger tank soon. I'm so amazed by these little guys, they're really beautiful even when tiny - they get an extra load of reflectiveness for a glow that almost seems to come from inside. I waste way too much time gazing at them! I can't wait until they're bigger and I can put them all in the 55-gallon to grow out! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51964	From: haecklers	Date: 8/14/2011
Subject: Re: Tips on mailing an 8 inch Jack Dempsey???

Yes, I'm shipping a pair, but the female is much smaller than the male and I'm less worried about shipping her. I will be bagging them separately, and I will double-bag, end-to-end so there are no corners for them to get stuck in. I did order the bag buddies from Ken's and also some bags, for mailing out other fish in the future. To cover my bases I also ordered some bag buddies from a fellow on AquaBid who is selling them for $0.25 each. Hopefully one of them will get here by Wed. We're donating some fish to a lfs today, I'll ask what kind of shipping supplies they may have still around. Unfortunately most stores around here get their fish in on Thursdays so too late for this shipment! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Ordinarily, I would recommend your asking the recipient for what are referred to as "Box Bags." As the name would imply, they're large enough to fill the entire box. This would be perfect if you were just carrying the box a few towns over -- if the recipient was in your area -- and you could add about 3" of water to this bag, which would just about cover his back (dorsal fin being held closed). But this much water in such a large bag would cost far too much in shipping charges, unless the recipient doesn't mind the extra charges. > > Otherwise, you should try to get bags about 22" long by about 8" wide (10" wide, max). The extra length will allow for ample room in closing it, while fitting end to end inside the box. It will only be about half as wide as the box, so center it and fill in each side. If at all possible use 3 mil (0.003") thick bags, and use at least 2 of them, one inverted inside the other. This offers the best seal. After twisting the ends of the bags, tie them off with heavy rubber bands, using two of them on each end (one may break during transit). Use even three such bags in case the fish punctures one (or two) bags with his hard dorsal rays -- which can easily happen. > > DO NOT use 2 mil bags even though this may be the most commonly used bag by the LFS's, for Swordtails and Tetras, etc. The 2 mil bag is too easily punctured by large Cichlids. Sometimes, despite your best efforts, and with using 3 mil thick bags, they may still puncture it. Sometimes when they do, the inner-most bag will collapse on the fish, preventing much oxygen from reaching their water. Now you can see why using the thickest bag (within reason) you can get will help. Bags too thick are very difficult to seal well though. > > Usually, the LFS's just throw out the shipping boxes they receive fish in from their wholesalers, as they get them just about every week. They should be more than happy to let you have one as it builds up good customer relations. > > As you say "them," may I now assume that you're shipping the pair of Dempsey's? At first, I only read where you were shipping an 8" male Dempsey. If you're shipping a pair, you may want to bag them separately -- unless you're using a full-sized box bag. Even then, you could use a box bag to catch any leaks, but still bag each separately, inside of the box bag. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Thank you everyone!!! > > > > So if I'm shipping him out on Wednesday then I stop feeding him tomorrow, right? > > > > I'll check the pet stores to see if they kept any of the shipping containers around. If not, I think the Dollar Store is selling styrofoam ice chests that are about that size, I'd just need to find a box that would fit them. > > > > Kind of a shame I'm sending them so soon - they're getting ready to spawn again, but I'm up to my ears in fish fry so I guess the new owner can enjoy them. :) > > > > I've got a 10-gallon right now with around 30 electric blue fry, a little over 1/2 inch, that are fattening up quickly with the special attention they're finally getting. :) Getting them ready for a bigger tank soon. I'm so amazed by these little guys, they're really beautiful even when tiny - they get an extra load of reflectiveness for a glow that almost seems to come from inside. I waste way too much time gazing at them! > > > > I can't wait until they're bigger and I can put them all in the 55-gallon to grow out! > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Yes, a "Florida Fish Box" is a styrofoam fish shipping box, commonly 17" square, INSIDE OF a corregated cardboard carton. While styrofoam fish boxes come in many sizes, the above size is what the Florida fish farms most often use for shipments of the average every-day "community-type" fishes they raise the most of. It may even have "F.T.F.I." (Florida Tropical Fish Industry) molded into the top of the styrofoam lid. Rather than being too large (as many others can be), this is the ideal size for shipping even an 8" Jack Dempsey. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The recipient is sending me some good bags to use and asked for me to pick up a florida fish box - which I've never heard of - is that a styrofoam one? > > > > > > > > I know to not feed him the day before and ship him in clean water - mine's pH 8.0 out of the tap. > > > > > > > > What else? He's a great fish and I want him to not have a bad time. > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51965	From: joe t	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Angels spawned again - now discus

Ahhhhhh!!!!! Ray, I think you hit the bull's-eye. Thinking back on it now, I failed use any water conditioner in the containers the fish came in. Duh!! Why, I do not know. I added some to the tanks, but not in the containers. Something was missing in my thought process for these poor fish, but that's the way it is --was. I ordered a few years back, so I do not know if they are still following the same shipping procdure. But for informational purposes, they shipped each discus in a vessel all its own. The besh I can discribe the size, it looked like the canister you put your papers in at a bank to go from your car thru the tube to the teller. My best recall is that the fish were about 2 inches - not including fins. All of the containers were in one box, of course. joe t --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > I don't know the size of the fish you bought, nor the size of the containers (bags?). If they're experiences shippers/packers, they should know what size container to use for the size fish they're shipping. If the containers looked small to you though, perhaps they were, although you need to keep in mind they most probably used oxygen when bagging (containing) them. Still. if there wasn't a large amount of water in comparison to the size of the fish, ammonia could have built up. > > This was one point I neglected to mention to you previously, although I did follow up on it in another thread. When checking the bag for pH after you open it, you should always check for ammonia too. Then at least, you could add a few drops of Prime (or another good water conditioner) to take care of the ammonia while you continue to acclimate them. Perhaps your fish got stressed from ammonia build up in the bag, which could account for their not holding up. This could happen if you were adding alkaline tank water with a moderate to high pH if you weren't discarding the bag water fast enough (if it had ammonia). Bag water too, can off-gas any CO2 build up once the bag is opened, resulting in a rise in pH -- which could have an adverse effect if there was ammonia present. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@> wrote: > > > > I agree, Ray. The fish look real nice. I have to say that I think they packed the fish well. Each fish was in a container to itself. I thought they looked pretty good when they arrived. What happened I cannot honestly say. But it made me a little gun-shy. Could it be that the containers were too small? > > > > If you decide to go ahead and order anyway, if you do not mind, keep me posted on how the fish make out. > > > > joe t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing your experience with "SomethingsPhishy." I was even thinking of perhaps ordering from them myself. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51966	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Faulty Air Pump

Hi Everyone, I have a Rena 400 double outlet airpump that is a few years old & until recently has been working fine. A few days ago it just stopped working-the rubber diaphragms are recently replaced & I cannot see anything broken, missing or burnt inside. It has not backed up with water either as it is always well above the water level & I checked the plug fuse & socket-any ideas what else this could be? Perhaps it's just time to get a new one-I only use it for turning-over the aged water tubs. John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51967	From: Sam Palermo	Date: 8/15/2011
Subject: Re: Faulty Air Pump

Hi John, These devices are not complex items in fact they resemble a solenoid in one way or another except they are NOT driven by DC but AC voltage. A coil as in these pumps can only create a field if the coil is continuous. If you have a meter of some kind that can do a continuity test some people have DVM (Digital Voltmeters), they even sell them at Radio Shack. I use Fluke myself but I am in the business of Electronics repair. You should pick up the power cord and place both probes to one each of the prongs that go into the wall. You should get a resistance of some kind. If you get an overload or Open (infinite resistance), then your coil is broken in some place. If you get a resistance but no vibration of the items hooked to the rubber diaphragms, then it could be some mechanical problem. Fuses- in many cases where there were fuses involved and no function in a device, the fuse should be ohmed out as well. Fuse filament may look good but they can develop a small break in the element that conducts due to shock, thermal cycles or current surges. You might find the fuse is actually defective. If you want to exchange E mails I am here to assist. I have worked on anything from Coffee pots to Digital Betacams so I have seen just about it all. I hope this helps. Best regards, Sam Palermo, Chief Engineer Skywave Tape Deck Repair skywavebe@... (708)334-2260 Past Teac/Tascam Lead Service Technician still doing repairs. On 8/15/2011 7:37 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > I have a Rena 400 double outlet airpump > that is a few years old & until > recently has been working fine. A few days > ago it just stopped working-the > rubber diaphragms are recently replaced & > I cannot see anything broken, > missing or burnt inside. It has not backed > up with water either as it is > always well above the water level & I > checked the plug fuse & socket-any > ideas what else this could be? Perhaps > it's just time to get a new one-I > only use it for turning-over the aged > water tubs. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > [Non-text portions of this message have > been removed] > > -- Skywave Tape Deck Repair Sam Palermo, Chief Engineer (708)334-2260 http://www.thumbtack.com/il/bensenville/deck-and-porch-repair/teac-tascam-repairs

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51968	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Tanked on Animal Planet

I thought it was terrible. I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51969	From: haecklers	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry

I just uploaded a photo of my EBJD fry in my album - Haecklers Fish. They're mixed with some regular Jack Dempsey fry - you can tell the difference because the EBJD's are a golden color and have thin black stripes while the regular ones look darker and have thick black stripes. Just looking at the photo, it appears I have 30 of the EBJD's in there - wow! They're cute little things, always begging for food. FYI, I found this interesting - the Electric Blue is a naturally-occurring color morph but they tend to be slower-growing and more timid/less aggressive so in the wild they rarely compete well with their more robust siblings, and in captivity for years they were culled as off-colored runts. No-one realized how beautiful they are when they grow up (google them!). Two Electric Blues cannot be bred, you have to breed either an Electric Blue with one carrying the gene for it, or breed two that carry the gene. Even as adults the Electric Blue Jack Dempseys are a lot more fragile than regular Jack Dempseys and it's pretty hard to grow them to adulthood, or so I've read. Maybe that's why at 3" they sell for $50 each! I lost 3 so far since removing them from their parents - One I think I squished in the siphon tube, the other two looked to have a bowel problem from eating too many brine shrimp. So far (knock on wood) the rest seem to be pretty healthy and robust, tho there are a few that are still pretty small.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51970	From: Bill	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry

Awesome effort and thanks for the info on EBJD's... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry   I just uploaded a photo of my EBJD fry in my album - Haecklers Fish. They're mixed with some regular Jack Dempsey fry - you can tell the difference because the EBJD's are a golden color and have thin black stripes while the regular ones look darker and have thick black stripes. Just looking at the photo, it appears I have 30 of the EBJD's in there - wow! They're cute little things, always begging for food. FYI, I found this interesting - the Electric Blue is a naturally-occurring color morph but they tend to be slower-growing and more timid/less aggressive so in the wild they rarely compete well with their more robust siblings, and in captivity for years they were culled as off-colored runts. No-one realized how beautiful they are when they grow up (google them!). Two Electric Blues cannot be bred, you have to breed either an Electric Blue with one carrying the gene for it, or breed two that carry the gene. Even as adults the Electric Blue Jack Dempseys are a lot more fragile than regular Jack Dempseys and it's pretty hard to grow them to adulthood, or so I've read. Maybe that's why at 3" they sell for $50 each! I lost 3 so far since removing them from their parents - One I think I squished in the siphon tube, the other two looked to have a bowel problem from eating too many brine shrimp. So far (knock on wood) the rest seem to be pretty healthy and robust, tho there are a few that are still pretty small. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51971	From: haecklers	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Thanks for that, Kai!!!! I was disturbed to see them picking up the fish and holding them out of the water to get a look; then the one was teasing the puffer just for fun. They really treat them like fashion objects rather than rather fragile living beings. They did seem to choose the fish more for their appearance than their needs or compatibility and very little was said about the fish's needs. Also I was wondering who is going to take care of the tanks - the phone booth one looks almost impossible to clean and so did the "quarantine" tanks - you'd need a ladder to reach into them! I think a better fish show would be one where they go to where the fish are native and look at them in their natural habitat - they could cover the species like some of the livebearers that are in imminent danger of going extinct because they only live in a small area and the area is being drained for farmland, and show the efforts of folks to conserve the species. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I thought it was terrible. > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51972	From: barbokla	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I thought it was terrible. > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > ~Kai > I agree with U kuradi8.. Unclean anything to Make-up is the worst in water, salt or fresh.. YES a salt water tank has to be cycled just like fresh water does.. They probible did add in some cycle or equilavant to help boost the cycle process. They prob edited it out for time limit. BAD to not show that as we all know what happens if U do not cycle first or add a cycle product.. Also on the quarateen tank. Would U want to add in new after say a week and have all the tanks on the same filter system?? NOT me!! All those tanks should have had seperate filters JUST IN CASE one problem came about. U comtaminate them all on only ONE filter system.. ONE fish that comes in diseased or has ICH.. Not a good system to have at all. BUT the rich don't care as IT DIES, GET ANOTHER ONE attitude.. shame.. Too much cusing too!! I had to mute it alot as my elderly mom was around.. I would say the Italians have let the ball drop on this. Maybe some OTHERS will come forward and we can get BETTER quaility programing for us fish keeping and tank building.. I wont' hold my breath thou.. This program reminded me of orange county choppers, All fighting, back bitting, not doing/explaing the job right (except the tanks that we could not see being built but had to deal with the family soap-opra deal!!) Their family prissy females was a let down. A princess? I have a better word of her but I have more class than to type it.. Not sure I want to watch another one or not. NEXT week will tell.. LOLUCK!! Barb

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51973	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I thought it was terrible. > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51974	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry

Congratulations! They look great, you must be very proud. John*<o)))< * On 20 August 2011 16:57, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > Awesome effort and thanks for the info on EBJD's... Bill in Va.� > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 9:39 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Electric Blue Jack Dempsey fry > > � > I just uploaded a photo of my EBJD fry in my album - Haecklers Fish. > They're mixed with some regular Jack Dempsey fry - you can tell the > difference because the EBJD's are a golden color and have thin black stripes > while the regular ones look darker and have thick black stripes. > > Just looking at the photo, it appears I have 30 of the EBJD's in there - > wow! They're cute little things, always begging for food. > > FYI, I found this interesting - the Electric Blue is a naturally-occurring > color morph but they tend to be slower-growing and more timid/less > aggressive so in the wild they rarely compete well with their more robust > siblings, and in captivity for years they were culled as off-colored runts. > No-one realized how beautiful they are when they grow up (google them!). > > Two Electric Blues cannot be bred, you have to breed either an Electric > Blue with one carrying the gene for it, or breed two that carry the gene. > > Even as adults the Electric Blue Jack Dempseys are a lot more fragile than > regular Jack Dempseys and it's pretty hard to grow them to adulthood, or so > I've read. Maybe that's why at 3" they sell for $50 each! > > I lost 3 so far since removing them from their parents - One I think I > squished in the siphon tube, the other two looked to have a bowel problem > from eating too many brine shrimp. So far (knock on wood) the rest seem to > be pretty healthy and robust, tho there are a few that are still pretty > small. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51975	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

I'm with you, Dawn. Animal cruelty. These guys are supposed to be professionals yet they're breaking the most BASIC rules. Fishkeeping 101: Step One: CYCLE THE TANK Why didn't they cycle their tanks? Why did they overstock them? Why didn't they include reefs for the reef fish? Why did they build a stocked tank for lingerie mermaids? (Don't they realize it can't double as a swimming pool?) It really hurts my heart that they have no regard for the lives of those fish and no respect for the regal specimens that many of them are. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > > ~Kai > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51976	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Hi All, Is this program available online anywhere? I'm in the UK. It sounds like the same attitude as some of our 'celebrity' gardening programs who think the best way to set up a pond is just dig a hole, throw a load of soil in to plant bull rushes & add decking round the edge. Often a case of too much time on their hands & too much money. John*<o)))< *ps-Dawn, completely off-topic but did Joan Jett play any Runaways songs last nite? * * On 20 August 2011 21:40, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > ** > > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it > sounds like I didn't miss much. > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the > tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of > a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a > freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled > with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the > need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live > rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, > which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days > to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a > marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering > the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to > these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show > as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in > regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the > explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the > media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative > into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware > of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so > quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not > familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank > first? > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to > have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or > their compatibility. > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't > think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise > they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair > products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they > contaminating the tanks? > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they > expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need > something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't > seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be > professionals. > > ~Kai > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51977	From: William M	Date: 8/20/2011
Subject: Discus Fry.

I'm looking to expand my discus line. I'm looking to purchase a dozen or so dime to nickel size fry. I would really like the blue or green turq's... or some snakes... anyone out there breeding them? I'm not interested in becoming a competing breeder.. My goal is the have a pair of 5 or 6 varieties in a 155g. Pick up a dozen fry.. raise them for a year and select a pair for the community discus tank, off load the others and move on to the next variety. Maybe have two varieties growing out at the same time max. Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51978	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Their site has some clips but not the whole program: http://animal.discovery.com/tv/tanked/ Use your favorite search engine to see if any full episodes are available online. There have only been 1 or 2 so far. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi All, > > Is this program available online anywhere? I'm in the UK. It sounds like > the same attitude as some of our 'celebrity' gardening programs who think > the best way to set up a pond is just dig a hole, throw a load of soil in to > plant bull rushes & add decking round the edge. Often a case of too much > time on their hands & too much money. > > John*<o)))< > > *ps-Dawn, completely off-topic but did Joan Jett play any Runaways songs > last nite? > * > * > On 20 August 2011 21:40, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it > > sounds like I didn't miss much. > > > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the > > tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of > > a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a > > freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled > > with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the > > need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live > > rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, > > which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days > > to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a > > marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering > > the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to > > these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show > > as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in > > regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the > > explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the > > media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative > > into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware > > of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so > > quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not > > familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank > > first? > > > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to > > have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or > > their compatibility. > > > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't > > think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise > > they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair > > products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they > > contaminating the tanks? > > > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they > > expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need > > something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't > > seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be > > professionals. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51979	From: jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

who says the tanks were not already cycle? magic of television, all you guys do is complain. It was about time some one did a show on aquariums. I loved the show, specially the part the dudes wife had to go into a shark tank to place some decorations in it. --- On Sat, 8/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tanked on Animal Planet To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 4:40 PM   I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > I thought it was terrible. > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > ~Kai > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51980	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

The Mob tank... you could see the fish boxes in the background as the tanks were filling. The phone booth was over stocked with reef fish but no reef and only a 3x3 footprint. And who designs a TANK for "lingerie mermaids???" It's not a swimming pool for heaven's sake! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > who says the tanks were not already cycle? magic of television, all you guys do is complain. It was about time some one did a show on aquariums. I loved the show, specially the part the dudes wife had to go into a shark tank to place some decorations in it. > > --- On Sat, 8/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tanked on Animal Planet > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 4:40 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > > > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51981	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Jaiko, I didn't see the show when it aired, but I have seen the clips and even those were enough to show the abuse to the animals. Are you aware of the issues it causes for a porcupine puffer to be taken out of the water by hand and scared badly enough to puff up? Stress is an understatement and we all know that with fish, stress kills... yet they thought it was funny. Mop handles to hit sharks with in a bare tank that is clearly overstocked? Abusive! People have every right to complain when innocent animals are being mistreated. I agree that its long overdue to do a show about fish/aquariums, however, doing it responsibly is very important. All they are doing with this show is promoting the mistreatment of these animals that some of us care so deeply about. Were you also aware that these people on the show have a long list of lawsuits pending against them for breach of contract? (I can offer you the links if you'd like to verify it yourself) Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > who says the tanks were not already cycle? magic of television, all you guys do is complain. It was about time some one did a show on aquariums. I loved the show, specially the part the dudes wife had to go into a shark tank to place some decorations in it. > > --- On Sat, 8/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tanked on Animal Planet > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 4:40 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > > > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51982	From: jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Watch the show the used the sticks to move the fish not hit them..I'm also against animal cruelty. I know about the puffer btw i fish one yesterday the darn thing has human teeth keep on biting the hook freaky..lol. Abuse was those darn ppl who wanted a $30,000 dollar quarantine tank. I also against saltwater tanks and set ups due to fish been taken from the ocean and placed in tanks. you also have to rem those fish cost from 100 to 300 plus dollars each so if im going to over stock and make my customer loose fish. This customer will not return for my service. I just hate the PETA talk you know wackos who take it the extreme. --- On Sun, 8/21/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tanked on Animal Planet To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:39 PM   Jaiko, I didn't see the show when it aired, but I have seen the clips and even those were enough to show the abuse to the animals. Are you aware of the issues it causes for a porcupine puffer to be taken out of the water by hand and scared badly enough to puff up? Stress is an understatement and we all know that with fish, stress kills... yet they thought it was funny. Mop handles to hit sharks with in a bare tank that is clearly overstocked? Abusive! People have every right to complain when innocent animals are being mistreated. I agree that its long overdue to do a show about fish/aquariums, however, doing it responsibly is very important. All they are doing with this show is promoting the mistreatment of these animals that some of us care so deeply about. Were you also aware that these people on the show have a long list of lawsuits pending against them for breach of contract? (I can offer you the links if you'd like to verify it yourself) Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > who says the tanks were not already cycle? magic of television, all you guys do is complain. It was about time some one did a show on aquariums. I loved the show, specially the part the dudes wife had to go into a shark tank to place some decorations in it. > > --- On Sat, 8/20/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Tanked on Animal Planet > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, August 20, 2011, 4:40 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > > > > In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > > > I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > > > I thought it was terrible. > > > > > > I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > > > > > > The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > > > > > > They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > > > > > > The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > > > > > > The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > > > > > > I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51983	From: Jaiko	Date: 8/21/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

Who does not say the tanks did fully cycle? Majic of tv wow all u ppl do is complain..i think it was an awsome show..about time they made one dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: >I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > >In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > >I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > >Dawn > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: >> >> I thought it was terrible. >> >> I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? >> >> The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. >> >> They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? >> >> The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? >> >> The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. >> >> I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. >> ~Kai >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51984	From: haecklers	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Syno. Eupeterus (Featherfin Squeaker) question

Mine is around 9 months old and around 6 inches long (just guessing on the age) and I'm noticing he's got little bumps all over his head. I can't tell if it's just textured skin or if the fish has ich! I've never seen a mature one before. Has anyone here ever had one and do you recall if they have texture on the skin on their heads as they get older?? I've got other fish in with him and so far they show no signs of any ich spots or bumps, just the one fish. He otherwise seems fine, tho he's unhappy now because I removed the floating plants so the tank is brighter than it used to be. He's not flashing or anything. Any help would be appreciated! --------------------------------- And FREE for West Chester, PA pick-up - BGJD X BGJD fry! I just did a count - over 170 of them and growing FAST!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51985	From: kuradi8	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > I just hate the PETA talk you know wackos who take it the extreme. > If you spent any time on this list instead of just trolling and flinging veiled insults, you'd know that none of us are "PETA whackos." And if you didn't see anything wrong with what the Tanked guys did, then I feel very sorry for your fish. ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51986	From: Al Keep	Date: 8/23/2011
Subject: Re: Tanked on Animal Planet

aside from the science... awefull writing and acting !!! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jaiko <greychildren@...> wrote: > > Who does not say the tanks did fully cycle? Majic of tv wow all u ppl do is complain..i think it was an awsome show..about time they made one > > dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > >I missed the show last night, (went to a Joan Jett concert instead) but it sounds like I didn't miss much. > > > >In answer to the question about the cycling of a saltwater tank... yes, the tank needs to cycle. Cycling a marine tank usually takes longer than that of a freshwater tank and there is no way to "jump start" it like you can with a freshwater tank, either. If done properly, a marine tank is usually cycled with live sand and live rock. Using cured live rock doesn't eliminate the need for cycling, nor does it eliminate die off from the rock. Anytime live rock changes environment/tank it will go through some period of die off, which will jump water params all over the place for anywhere from a few days to a few wks. While a freshwater tank averages 4 - 6 wks for cycling, a marine tank averages 8 - 12 wks. > > > >I will have to be sure to watch the next episode of this show. Considering the things you've mentioned already, I can see I will be wanting to write to these people, and who knows... maybe to the tv studio that's doing the show as well. I am wondering if ANY of them are giving thought to the animals in regards to promoting cruelty and abuse? I would love to hear the explanations they have to offer on that topic... and of course, what the media makes of it all. Maybe there is a way to turn something so negative into something positive by pointing out and making the general public aware of the abuse/mistreatment of the animals... its at least worth a shot. > > > >Dawn > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > >> > >> I thought it was terrible. > >> > >> I don't think it was "the magic of television" that time went by so quickly. They filled the tanks and added the fish immediately. I'm not familiar with salt water -- doesn't it have to cycle like a fresh tank first? > >> > >> The phone booth tank seemed severely overstocked. And they don't seem to have paid any attention to the needs of the fish (only a 3x3 footprint) or their compatibility. > >> > >> They contaminated the Mob tank with the guy's leather shoes. I don't think they were washed/cleaned or even put into water first -- otherwise they would have known they would float. And between all the makeup and hair products on the wife and the lingerie of the mermaids, weren't they contaminating the tanks? > >> > >> The rich people's "quarantine" tank. Really? Just how often do they expect to be adding fish? How much more do they intend to add that they need something that big and elaborate? And did you see their plumbing job??? > >> > >> The guys came off as oafs. The wife came off as a princess. > >> > >> I suspect this will HURT their business rather than help it. They don't seem to know much about fish-keeping -- especially cos they claim to be professionals. > >> ~Kai > >> > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51987	From: kwondrash	Date: 8/24/2011
Subject: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium

Hi all--I'm considering the idea of setting up a small Fish w/live rock marine tank. I'm getting a 30 gallon tank/stand set-up very reasonably, and was wondering if anyone has this size set up. I am still researching it, but would appreciate anyone letting me know what they have been using for filtration, powerhead, protein skimmer, etc. I know about overstocking....will only be looking at about 4 fish and maybe a shrimp, probably starting with a damselfish species since they are hardier. I have had freshwater tanks for many years and have always wanted to take on the challenge of saltwater but cannot go much bigger. Thanks for sharing!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51988	From: William M	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Safe T Sorb

I'm trying to find the article I'm sure I read on here about using the product from Tractor Supply called Safe T Sorb. Can anyone point me to the topic? Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51989	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium

The first thing I can tell you is that in 30 gallons, you're not going to get 4 fish in there. You may get 3 if you stick to "tiny" fish, such as shrimp gobies and others that stay UNDER 3 inches in size. Include shrimp as 1 of your total population, not alongside of it. Most of the damsel species get quite large and the fish they are compatible with also get quite large. (example: domino damsels get 5 - 6 inches, yellow tail damsels can reach 6 - 7 inches) The space needed for animals in a marine tank is very different than fresh water and they grow just as quickly. 30 gallons is more well suited as a reef tank. Also keep in mind that the smaller the tank the more work it will be to keep it stable and healthy. In order to accommodate 4 fish that include a damsel species you would need at least 55 - 75 gallons to make it work long term. To crowd the fish means dead fish, which gets expensive quickly. Some better suited ideas for a 30 gallon would be something like seahorses, jans pipe fish (would have to be limited to the smallest of species of pipe fish), or a reef with corals and primarily inverts, maybe a pair of clown fish if you stick to ocellaris only (they're the smallest species). Expect a 2 fish limit if they grow to 3 - 4 inches each and anything that grows beyond 4 inches is a no no in that size of a tank. For filtration you have a few options. Eheim canister is a popular choice, made to handle the saltwater, but expensive. I have run 30 gallon tanks using the skilter model of HOB filter, they work well if you have the time for the maintenance and keep an eye on it enough to control the salt creep and adjust the skimmer feature. Expect to empty the skimmer chamber daily. Other options for skimmers are very limited for 30 gallons. Most of the small units don't work real well, unless you are setting this up with a sump (my overall favorite choice of filtration) which would allow you to work with a wider range of equipment, making the overall maintenance and ease of stability much easier. If you are considering mixing fish species with inverts I would also suggest a UV sterilizer. Marine animals are still primarily wild caught and bring in a wide range of disease and parasites that can be tricky to deal with when you have invert/fish mixture. Powerheads also leave you with a wide range of options. MaxiJet is probably my favorite for the small tanks, though I have had great luck with the Rio brand, too. Be sure it has flow adjustment attachments with it, that will be vital to success. Please don't forget a quarantine tank. While anyone keeping an aquarium, fresh or salt water should have a quarantine, when working with marine animals a quarantine tank is a must. Every animal beyond the first one should spend 2 - 3 wks in quarantine to help ensure you don't infect the main tank and put all of the animals at risk. This is especially important if you are mixing animals that come from different parts of the world. Animals coming from one area will not have any immunity to diseases that thrive in another, so when the animals are mixed together without quarantine, you are more likely to wipe them all out rather than just one that can be treated much easier in quarantine, which allows a better chance of no losses at all. Medicating with inverts in the tank is a huge no no. Medications are toxic to inverts and will permanently contaminate live rock, substrate, etc. leaving them unsafe for future use in a main tank. My very first marine tank was 30 gallons many yrs ago. Within weeks of setting it up I became aware of the limitations of such a small tank and the challenges in keeping it stable. Put mildly, it was a lot of work just to find animals that could stay in there not to mention keeping the tank stable and healthy. I am currently running a 29 gallon biocube which is about to be upgraded to a 75 gallon tank because it became impossible to keep up with the growth rate of the corals, and the tank isn't big enough to keep a fish without making it a lot of extra work and expense. If I were to add fish to this tank, I would be limited to 1 small fish. I did have 1 coral banded shrimp that lived in this biocube for 3 yrs, but even that was a challenge due to tank size. Other things you can expect to need are a constant supply of RO/DI water on hand (for top offs), a covered mixing vat for premixing your salt water and a power head to put in it, heater or chiller depending on the climate you are in and lighting you use, live sand or aragonite sand for substrate, at least 30 lbs of quality live rock (it pays to get quality rock and pay the extra price, since this is your primary source of filtration), and a good bladed scraper to help battle coraline algae growth on the glass. A hydrometer or refractometer is also must, and salinity needs to be checked anytime you add add anything (water or animals) to the tank. I am not trying to discourage you from attempting a marine tank, please don't misunderstand my post/info, but I am trying to prepare you for what lies ahead. A marine tank has much less room for error than a freshwater tank, and will be much more expensive no matter how you approach it. If you have more questions, please feel free to ask. I will do all I can to help you. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > > Hi all--I'm considering the idea of setting up a small Fish w/live rock marine tank. I'm getting a 30 gallon tank/stand set-up very reasonably, and was wondering if anyone has this size set up. I am still researching it, but would appreciate anyone letting me know what they have been using for filtration, powerhead, protein skimmer, etc. > I know about overstocking....will only be looking at about 4 fish and maybe a shrimp, probably starting with a damselfish species since they are hardier. > I have had freshwater tanks for many years and have always wanted to take on the challenge of saltwater but cannot go much bigger. > Thanks for sharing! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51990	From: bamberggreenman	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium

AquaC Remora for skimmer, as it is easy to use and skims very well.A canister filter like an Eheim 2215 filled with nothing but liverock rubble for good bio/turnover.Mech is up to you, but isn't necessarily needed. If you do use mech, it will need frequent cleaning. I'd fill it with Dollar-General plastic scrubby pads and scrap what it came with. They work well, are easily cleaned, and are reusable-Copeapods love to hide in them as well. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kwondrash" <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > > Hi all--I'm considering the idea of setting up a small Fish w/live rock marine tank. I'm getting a 30 gallon tank/stand set-up very reasonably, and was wondering if anyone has this size set up. I am still researching it, but would appreciate anyone letting me know what they have been using for filtration, powerhead, protein skimmer, etc. > I know about overstocking....will only be looking at about 4 fish and maybe a shrimp, probably starting with a damselfish species since they are hardier. > I have had freshwater tanks for many years and have always wanted to take on the challenge of saltwater but cannot go much bigger. > Thanks for sharing! > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51991	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Re: Syno. Eupeterus (Featherfin Squeaker) question

Hi, Don't know if this is of any use or not 'cos I've never heard of these fish before but it sounded such an interesting name I had to Googled it & I found several pictures including the 2 links below that seem to show fish with white lumps/bumps on their heads so I guess it is natural? http://bunniez.hubpages.com/hub/Synodontis-Species http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherfin_squeaker John*<o)))< * On 23 August 2011 13:24, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > Mine is around 9 months old and around 6 inches long (just guessing on the > age) and I'm noticing he's got little bumps all over his head. I can't tell > if it's just textured skin or if the fish has ich! I've never seen a mature > one before. > > Has anyone here ever had one and do you recall if they have texture on the > skin on their heads as they get older?? > > I've got other fish in with him and so far they show no signs of any ich > spots or bumps, just the one fish. He otherwise seems fine, tho he's unhappy > now because I removed the floating plants so the tank is brighter than it > used to be. He's not flashing or anything. > > Any help would be appreciated! > > --------------------------------- > And FREE for West Chester, PA pick-up - BGJD X BGJD fry! I just did a count > - over 170 of them and growing FAST! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51992	From: Morgana	Date: 8/25/2011
Subject: Corydoras

Could someone please help me. I'm looking at setting up my established freshwater tank, with catfish as the main feature. I already have 1 mature male albino bristlenose and a wildtype BN, which I think is also male, but it's smaller then the albino, and I hardly ever see it. Both of them get on well together. There is also 6 livebarers in the tank 3 guppies and 3 swordtails. I was thinking corydoras, but wasn't sure on the best subspecies to go for. I've had the albinos before, and they were cool, but they're expensive to buy. I would like something active but not aggressive. The substrate is white gravel. So I want something that's gonna stand out What would be my best option for a tank that has 50% live plants 50% plastic? I think my tank is 22 gallon (UK) 100 liter It's 50 inches or 4.1 feet At 25*C - 78.8*F I'm not in a major hurry. But fast answers would be appreciated none the less Thanks Lisa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51993	From: haecklers	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras

Peppered cories are cool. Not aggressive at all, stay on the small side, so they'd be happy in a 22 gallon, and would show up nicely against a white substrate. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Morgana" <lisa_lawless2004@...> wrote: > > Could someone please help me. > I'm looking at setting up my established freshwater tank, with catfish as the main feature. > I already have 1 mature male albino bristlenose and a wildtype BN, which I think is also male, but it's smaller then the albino, and I hardly ever see it. > Both of them get on well together. > > There is also 6 livebarers in the tank 3 guppies and 3 swordtails. > > I was thinking corydoras, but wasn't sure on the best subspecies to go for. > I've had the albinos before, and they were cool, but they're expensive to buy. > I would like something active but not aggressive. > > The substrate is white gravel. So I want something that's gonna stand out > What would be my best option for a tank that has 50% live plants 50% plastic? > I think my tank is 22 gallon (UK) 100 liter > It's 50 inches or 4.1 feet > At 25*C - 78.8*F > > I'm not in a major hurry. But fast answers would be appreciated none the less > Thanks > Lisa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51994	From: Dora Smith	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras

I have a question about corydoras; will they eat diatoms?   Dora From: Morgana <lisa_lawless2004@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:30 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Corydoras Could someone please help me. I'm looking at setting up my established freshwater tank, with catfish as the main feature. I already have 1 mature male albino bristlenose and a wildtype BN, which I think is also male, but it's smaller then the albino, and I hardly ever see it. Both of them get on well together. There is also 6 livebarers in the tank 3 guppies and 3 swordtails. I was thinking corydoras, but wasn't sure on the best subspecies to go for. I've had the albinos before, and they were cool, but they're expensive to buy. I would like something active but not aggressive. The substrate is white gravel. So I want something that's gonna stand out What would be my best option for a tank that has 50% live plants 50% plastic? I think my tank is 22 gallon (UK) 100 liter It's 50 inches or 4.1 feet At 25*C - 78.8*F I'm not in a major hurry. But fast answers would be appreciated none the less Thanks Lisa ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51995	From: haecklers	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras

IMHO Bristlenose plecos are the best for that. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I have a question about corydoras; will they eat diatoms? >   > Dora > > From: Morgana <lisa_lawless2004@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:30 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Corydoras > > Could someone please help me. > I'm looking at setting up my established freshwater tank, with catfish as the main feature. > I already have 1 mature male albino bristlenose and a wildtype BN, which I think is also male, but it's smaller then the albino, and I hardly ever see it. > Both of them get on well together. > > There is also 6 livebarers in the tank 3 guppies and 3 swordtails. > > I was thinking corydoras, but wasn't sure on the best subspecies to go for. > I've had the albinos before, and they were cool, but they're expensive to buy. > I would like something active but not aggressive. > > The substrate is white gravel. So I want something that's gonna stand out > What would be my best option for a tank that has 50% live plants 50% plastic? > I think my tank is 22 gallon (UK) 100 liter > It's 50 inches or 4.1 feet > At 25*C - 78.8*F > > I'm not in a major hurry. But fast answers would be appreciated none the less > Thanks > Lisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51996	From: Bill	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras

From somewhere I managed to acquire a school of Orange Laser Cory's.. They pretty much hang out together and are very peaceful!...Very cool looking group!.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, August 26, 2011 9:40 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Corydoras   IMHO Bristlenose plecos are the best for that. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I have a question about corydoras; will they eat diatoms? >   > Dora > > From: Morgana <lisa_lawless2004@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 9:30 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Corydoras > > Could someone please help me. > I'm looking at setting up my established freshwater tank, with catfish as the main feature. > I already have 1 mature male albino bristlenose and a wildtype BN, which I think is also male, but it's smaller then the albino, and I hardly ever see it. > Both of them get on well together. > > There is also 6 livebarers in the tank 3 guppies and 3 swordtails. > > I was thinking corydoras, but wasn't sure on the best subspecies to go for. > I've had the albinos before, and they were cool, but they're expensive to buy. > I would like something active but not aggressive. > > The substrate is white gravel. So I want something that's gonna stand out > What would be my best option for a tank that has 50% live plants 50% plastic? > I think my tank is 22 gallon (UK) 100 liter > It's 50 inches or 4.1 feet > At 25*C - 78.8*F > > I'm not in a major hurry. But fast answers would be appreciated none the less > Thanks > Lisa > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51997	From: bamberggreenman	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Tips for my 1st marine aquarium

Forgot to mention, Get the BEST skimmer you can afford. Do not go cheap. The AquaC Remora is a hang on back variety, And it does an amazing job. You will not find a more efficient HOB skimmer. It is also one of the few that does not need bubble adjusting. You can forego the weir box in lieu of a smaller DIY box, or you can attach live rock to his box. Skim mate will need removal once or twice a week unless you opt for external plumbing to a larger container. For canister, I was using Eheim, but am trying an Odyssea model filled with LR rubble. Works like a champ, but probably too much flow for a 30gal. Keeping as much electrical as possible out of the tank, as well as choosing livestock from warmer natural waters should alleviate the need for cooling. Keeping it well ventilated will also aid in pH / alkalinity imbalances.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51998	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 8/26/2011
Subject: Re: Corydoras

Hello Lisa, I have 6 emerald green cory in my aquarium. I am not sure if they are avail= able in Australia. They are pretty calm, non agresive fish. They even get a= long with my barbs. Alex Semper Fi Orlando, FL

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 51999	From: haecklers	Date: 8/30/2011
Subject: Shipping fish

I just for the first time shipped some fish through the mail. I think I've under-appreciated the time and effort that goes into packing fish to go through the mail! Took me an hour plus the work days in advance, moving them to the quarantine tank so they couldn't eat and twice daily water changes! I think if you go to the desk to mail them they can put on the "Fragile" and "Liquids" stickers - I hope that means they'll give them extra care in shipping. If the fish were worth $1 each then I lost $7 so aquabid is a bargain except for the shipping charges!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52000	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/1/2011
Subject: Baby Pix

I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/list My husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely bigger than a Quarter. Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in him too. :o) So long live PuPu! ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52001	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 9/1/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than normal. Enid ________________________________ From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 1, 2011 1:29 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Baby Pix   I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/list My husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely bigger than a Quarter. Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in him too. :o) So long live PuPu! ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52002	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

Thanks! I think he's a little cutie too. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Enid Rodriguez <gwydryn2000@...> wrote: > > very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than normal. > Enid > > > ________________________________ > I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." > > So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. > > I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. > > Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/list My husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely bigger than a Quarter. > > Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in him too. :o) > > So long live PuPu! > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52003	From: Trycya	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: UGF

I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break down? I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do it. Thanks Tricia

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52004	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

If I had an UGF I would take it out. There are much more efficient filtration systems, IMO. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trycya Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 3:25 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break down? I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do it. Thanks Tricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52005	From: pam andress	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

I used to use those years ago and since I got back to having a tank and now many tanks, I do not use them. They are more of a pain then not having them. If you want additional filtration, add a sponge filter. Pam I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break down? I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do it. Thanks Tricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52006	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

I've got an UGF in my 75 gallon hooked up to a canister filter and did this with several turtle tanks also. If you put 3-4" of gravel over it, it works great. If you were just using airstones and carbon inserts, I wouldn't even bother. Scott (Deer Park) Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: "Trycya" <trycya@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:24:38 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break down? I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do it. Thanks Tricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52007	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Back in the very early days, my plant roots would clog everything up in the UGF and I would have to completely tare up the tank just to get the thing to work again. I've got over 30 tanks and no UGF in any of them. I use several over the side filters on larger tanks but sponge filters on everything else. }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> >I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both >of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and >running for a few years, but I have been >wondering if adding one to the tanks would help >keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest >concerns is that I do not want to have to >totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, >is there a way to safely clean under without >doing the break down? > >I am researching before I make my decision. I >also want to make sure I have enough to convince >my Hubby to help me with the break down to set >the UGF up if I decide to do it. > >Thanks >Tricia -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52008	From: jaime2526	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Firebellied toads

I hope this is an appropriate group to bring these little buggars up. I have two that I purchased for my daughter who loves all creatures great and small. :) I do not have a permanent tank set up yet for them but was wondering if you all could share some ideas of your tanks with me. A ten gallon setup or 5 gallon would be ideal for me if any of you have any ideas. We also have 1 betta, 3 hermit crabs, a fence lizard. We are actually supposed to be getting a 100 gallon fish aquarium that I have no idea what I want to put in there yet. I love the salt water aquariums but am completely unexperienced with those and prefer to do the freshwater fish only. That is a huge tank for the little fish that I'd be getting!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52009	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Hi Trycia, What fish do you have in this tank? I can only speak from experience with Goldfish but a UGF is a complete nightmare & really is a quite dated form of filtration now & for Carps at least you should never have to totally break down your tank. As others have said there are a lot of good filtration alternatives now & depending on what size tank you have, a combination of HOB for surface agitation & a canister with both nozzles on or near the bottom of the tank which would take care of the whole thing. You could do a lot worse than a wet/dry or sump as we call them in the UK. Really low-tech but extremely high performance & efficiency-an excellent way to go especially if you have a high waste content. My gravel is small & rounded-almost sand sized. It is less than half an inch thick so daily I throw in a couple of pinches of tiny marine seaweed pellet food-my Goldfish make light work of this with their sifting & in the process disturb all the debris into the water column & straight into the filters. This has the result that when I do my water changes there is nothing lurking in the gravel except more gravel! John*<o)))<* On 2 September 2011 23:03, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > I've got an UGF in my 75 gallon hooked up to a canister filter and did this > with several turtle tanks also. If you put 3-4" of gravel over it, it works > great. If you were just using airstones and carbon inserts, I wouldn't even > bother. > > Scott (Deer Park) > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Trycya" <trycya@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:24:38 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > > I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had > the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if > adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest > concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to > clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I > have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the > UGF up if I decide to do it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52010	From: Bill	Date: 9/2/2011
Subject: Re: Firebellied toads

My suggestion?.. Stay away from salt until you're ready to invest a lot of time and study... Tank size?.. I'd start with a 29 or 40 as a start.. I'll swap ya the 100 for one of each! LOL... What kind of fish are you looking to keep?..Is the 100 a tall or long?.. Are you looking for specie specific tanks or community... Your post begs more questions than you asked!  <grin>..  Me?.. I'd do a Discus tank, say a half dozen.. about 2 dozen assorted tetra's.. Cardinals, black neons... maybe a few (4-6) cory's... AND plant the heck out of it!.. Just my 2 cents. Bill  p.s. write back and I can add more and pics. Bill Still  ________________________________ From: jaime2526 <jaime2526@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 2, 2011 7:08 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Firebellied toads   I hope this is an appropriate group to bring these little buggars up. I have two that I purchased for my daughter who loves all creatures great and small. :) I do not have a permanent tank set up yet for them but was wondering if you all could share some ideas of your tanks with me. A ten gallon setup or 5 gallon would be ideal for me if any of you have any ideas. We also have 1 betta, 3 hermit crabs, a fence lizard. We are actually supposed to be getting a 100 gallon fish aquarium that I have no idea what I want to put in there yet. I love the salt water aquariums but am completely unexperienced with those and prefer to do the freshwater fish only. That is a huge tank for the little fish that I'd be getting! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52011	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

in one 55 gal I have guppies, high fin tetras, ghost cats, corry cats, yoyo loach, and 3 dojo loachs... in the other 55 I have guppies, khuli loaches, corry cats, and a panda garra.... eventually I plan to put everyone into 1 tank about 150 to 200 gal, that is when I can save up the funds to get a good 1 and all the equipment to set it up... MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Trycia, What fish do you have in this tank? I can only speak from experience with Goldfish but a UGF is a complete nightmare & really is a quite dated form of filtration now & for Carps at least you should never have to totally break down your tank. As others have said there are a lot of good filtration alternatives now & depending on what size tank you have, a combination of HOB for surface agitation & a canister with both nozzles on or near the bottom of the tank which would take care of the whole thing. You could do a lot worse than a wet/dry or sump as we call them in the UK. Really low-tech but extremely high performance & efficiency-an excellent way to go especially if you have a high waste content. My gravel is small & rounded-almost sand sized. It is less than half an inch thick so daily I throw in a couple of pinches of tiny marine seaweed pellet food-my Goldfish make light work of this with their sifting & in the process disturb all the debris into the water column & straight into the filters. This has the result that when I do my water changes there is nothing lurking in the gravel except more gravel! John*<o)))<* On 2 September 2011 23:03, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > I've got an UGF in my 75 gallon hooked up to a canister filter and did this > with several turtle tanks also. If you put 3-4" of gravel over it, it works > great. If you were just using airstones and carbon inserts, I wouldn't even > bother. > > Scott (Deer Park) > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Trycya" <trycya@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 19:24:38 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > > I am considering possibly adding a UGF for both of my tanks. I have had > the tanks up and running for a few years, but I have been wondering if > adding one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One of my biggest > concerns is that I do not want to have to totally brake down the tanks to > clean the UGF, is there a way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also want to make sure I > have enough to convince my Hubby to help me with the break down to set the > UGF up if I decide to do it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52012	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70’s and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT…………. The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC’s along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks.  I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner.  One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down?  > > I am researching before I make my decision.  I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52013	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70’s and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT…………. The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC’s along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52014	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70’s and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT…………. The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC’s along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52015	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

What would be the advantage of a UGF? The disadvantages are clear. I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a sponge filter before I would use a UGF. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jshphoto@... Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70’s and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT . The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC’s along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52016	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: Firebellied toads

On the Firebelly Toad. I kept one of these for 19 years, a considerable age considering the average lifespan of this species is 11-13 years. They are not in the true toad family, but rather in Bombinatoridae, a small family of several species of aquatic "toads." They thus need more water for swimming than common toads; I always considered mine a frog as that is how he behaved. I would use the 10g and set it up with half land/half water. This can be done simply with rock and wood built up for the "land" portion. The main thing is that while they like to sit in and swim in water, they also like to be able to get out on a completely dry area. They do not hop distances, at least mine never did--except when he got out; and even then it wasn't much of a hop. The tank must be well covered, as they can climb up glass easily and flatten themselves more than one would imagine to get under a screen cover. I watched mine do this once, and weighed down the screen more securely after that. I used a screen fitted top for the tank, and the light fixture weighted it down. Light is only required for observation, not warmth, so a fluorescent tube or a couple of compact fluorescent bulbs with a daylight 6500K rating is fine. I had Java Fern attached to bits of wood in the aquatic area. No heater, normal room temperature worked fine. Fresh water changed weekly using a basic water conditioner. A sprinkling of pea gravel on the bottom. They quickly learn to recognize their keeper, associated with food obviously. Mine soon ate from my fingers, and I fed him chunks of frozen squid, plankton, bloodworms [all thawed first], live worms such as small earthworms, crickets, house flies. When in the water, floating chunky foods can be fed, though they will not go for anything static, so a small piece of broomstick or something to move the food around is needed. They are easy to breed, though I stuck with just the one which I believe was male. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jaime2526" <jaime2526@...> wrote: > > I hope this is an appropriate group to bring these little buggars up. I have two that I purchased for my daughter who loves all creatures great and small. :) I do not have a permanent tank set up yet for them but was wondering if you all could share some ideas of your tanks with me. A ten gallon setup or 5 gallon would be ideal for me if any of you have any ideas. We also have 1 betta, 3 hermit crabs, a fence lizard. We are actually supposed to be getting a 100 gallon fish aquarium that I have no idea what I want to put in there yet. I love the salt water aquariums but am completely unexperienced with those and prefer to do the freshwater fish only. That is a huge tank for the little fish that I'd be getting! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52017	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/3/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

one of the advantages is that it would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more stable temp. Also from what I have read and learned talking with others around where I live it seems to me that with the added use of the power heads more oxygenation. And it looks to me like a better culture growing. I will still use the HOB filter as well just for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from the current tanks to help w cycling MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Ransome To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF What would be the advantage of a UGF? The disadvantages are clear. I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a sponge filter before I would use a UGF. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jshphoto@... Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70's and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT..... The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52018	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

I have never experienced a problem with water moving consistently from top to bottom and keeping temp stable throughout the tank. Regarding “a better culture” or the advantage of having the whole substrate as your growing media even if that is true, there is no advantage to it since the culture you can grow in an HOB is more than sufficient. And, bacteria will grow on your substrate with or without a UGF. I don’t see an advantage, and you definitely have the disadvantage of having all that muck under the UGF. With an HOB or canister you can remove the dirt weekly or monthly or quarterly without disrupting the tank. It is true power heads can add oxygenation, but with an HOB or canister you would have plenty of oxygenation without additional equipment. Regarding the transfer of water from an established tank to transfer bacteria, they do not live in the water so that will not help. You could transfer an established filter or filter media however, and that WILL work. Hope things work out well! PS there is a trick to positioning filter intakes and heaters, but once you know the trick, no problem with efficient and even heating. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tricia Wilkerson Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:05 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF one of the advantages is that it would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more stable temp. Also from what I have read and learned talking with others around where I live it seems to me that with the added use of the power heads more oxygenation. And it looks to me like a better culture growing. I will still use the HOB filter as well just for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from the current tanks to help w cycling MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Ransome To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF What would be the advantage of a UGF? The disadvantages are clear. I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a sponge filter before I would use a UGF. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of jshphoto@... <mailto:jshphoto%40yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70's and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT..... The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52019	From: Scott Holleman	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Wait, a UGF for a 150-200 gallon tank?  Forget it and go with sand.   That's too large an area for a UGF to work efficiently even with two canister filters hooked to it.  A 75 gallon takes two plates, so just imagine what a larger tank would require. Scott From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF   one of the advantages is that it would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more stable temp. Also from what I have read and learned talking with others around where I live it seems to me that with the added use of the power heads more oxygenation. And it looks to me like a better culture growing. I will still use the HOB filter as well just for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from the current tanks to help w cycling MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Ransome To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF What would be the advantage of a UGF? The disadvantages are clear. I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a sponge filter before I would use a UGF. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jshphoto@... Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70's and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT..... The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52020	From: harry perry	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: [AquaticLife Tricia/UGF

In my opinion......an UGF has more disadvantages then advantages. Consider this. This will have to be cleaned and the only way will be to tear down the entire tank.This would be very destablizing in any size tank. The stories you have read about toxic gas bubbles being released and killing your fish are true. The N. bacteria needed to stabilize your tank are everywhere not just under the plates in your UGF, On every surface in your tank. It would appear to be counter productive. You cycle your tanks and then break them down continuously to clean. Also live plants seem to do better without them. I can see a place for them. If I had a grow out tank with fry too big to get caught in the filter. It would work. That is,  without any substrate, With fry there is a lot of uneaten food. You will probably find as many opinions as there are people. Most experienced fish keepers don't use them. Harry ________________________________ From: Scott Holleman <jshphoto@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 4, 2011 8:22 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF   Wait, a UGF for a 150-200 gallon tank?  Forget it and go with sand.   That's too large an area for a UGF to work efficiently even with two canister filters hooked to it.  A 75 gallon takes two plates, so just imagine what a larger tank would require. Scott From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2011 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF   one of the advantages is that it would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more stable temp. Also from what I have read and learned talking with others around where I live it seems to me that with the added use of the power heads more oxygenation. And it looks to me like a better culture growing. I will still use the HOB filter as well just for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from the current tanks to help w cycling MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: Donna Ransome To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF What would be the advantage of a UGF? The disadvantages are clear. I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a sponge filter before I would use a UGF. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jshphoto@... Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Tricia, I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon tank with a UGF, Marineland Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to take out the UGF in five years. I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, except with a powerhead at the opposite end of the tank from the canister filter and haven't removed the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of 20 gallons and the water always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, 14" & 8" respectively. Scott (Deer Park, Tx) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -----Original Message----- From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do it, but how do you clean under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using them now is that I didn't want to have to break down the tank just to do the cleaning under there, I realize that you do not need to do the cleaning under there as often as you do the vac of the sub but still it needs to be done once in a while, right? I am just not wanting to have to stress the fish and pretty much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it ... I am just wondering if there is an affective way to do it with out the actual break down every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough of a breakdown cleaning if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I have kept fish since the 70's and although many will say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell you that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 gallon with out one. BUT..... The use of one does not mean that any of the basic rules of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of the term UG filters is not really correct, they are actually water-movers. For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, not over feeding your fish, all of these rules still apply and should be adhered too. OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going to find any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, save for a sump system; that will allow for such a large bacterial field? Only the use of a canister filter will support a large field. Once setup and supporting the field (4 to 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For operation of the filter properly, I would also add power heads rather than the use of air-stones. Bill --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > wrote: > From: Trycya <trycya@... <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > I am considering possibly adding a > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks up and > running for a few years, but I have been wondering if adding > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks cleaner. One > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to have to > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, is there a > way to safely clean under without doing the break > down? > > I am researching before I make my decision. I also > want to make sure I have enough to convince my Hubby to help > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I decide to do > it. > > Thanks > Tricia > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52021	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Hi Tricia, I’m going to try and address all of the remarks and comments from Harry, Donna(good hearing from you) and Scott so far. First, all of these people are basically correct in their comments and, as Harry pointed out; you cannot have live plants with a UG system. First the plant roots clog the plates and second, the plants will not get enough nutrients to sustain them because of the speed the water is moving, they will not have a chance to feed properly. When Donna mentioned about the mock under the plates, if you have it, you are feeding your fish way too much food. Also the simple work-around for this is to drill the bottom of the tank and install drains and valves. If you’re using one of the Acrylic tanks this is no problem, if the tank is all-glass, have a glass cutting shop drill the holes using diamond drills. As I said before, this is not a necessary step but I have seen tanks setup at Sea World that do exactly that and with no problems at all. Scott mentioned a larger tank to the tune of 150 to 200 gallons. I am here assuming that you mean for a tank this size, bigger fish. You would never find plates over 18’’ wide. Dead spots would then occur and the true purpose of the UG would be lost. Then too we must consider the aspects of such a tank with plastic lift tubes all over it, not very pretty to look at, is it? Next is the obvious point. Will the fish tolerate the lift tubes? I once had a 100-gallon tank with Oscars. They did not like the lift tubes and ripped them out every chance they got. In the end I had to remove them, their heater, and all gravel, Mr. Oscar was happy. The last point is about the gravel itself. For UG applications you must use a tumbled stone with no sharp edges (this can be found in most Garden and Pond shops). Why? If you would use regular aquarium gravel, you must be sure (hopefully thru vacuuming and water changes) that the gravel does not pack tightly and if your using power heads, this can happen very easily. In summing up, what’s the best setup? Take the UG money and apply it to a good or even a very good, canister filer. If you buy one with a large capacity housing as mentioned by others you will have plenty of room for as much bio material as you could ever need. Some that come to mind are Rena, Eheim to name just a few. Rena’s XP3 will do 350 gallons per hour and has a massive housing with 3 baskets for filtering materials. Good luck and please keep us posted, I hope I have helped, 73, Bill --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 7:04 PM > one of the advantages is that it > would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more > consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more > stable temp.  Also from what I have read and learned > talking with others around where I live it seems to me that > with the added use of the power heads more > oxygenation.  And it looks to me like a better culture > growing.  I will still use the HOB filter as well just > for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for > me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I > get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of > the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new > sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few > for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from > the current tanks to help w cycling > > MM & MP, till we MM again > Tricia > '73 > KG6PNC >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: Donna Ransome >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM >   Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF > > >     >   What would be the advantage of a UGF? The > disadvantages are clear. > >   I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a > sponge filter before I >   would use a UGF. > >   _____ > >   From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On >   Behalf Of jshphoto@... >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > >   Tricia, > >   I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon > tank with a UGF, Marineland >   Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to > take out the UGF in five >   years. > >   I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, > except with a powerhead at >   the opposite end of the tank from the canister > filter and haven't removed >   the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of > 20 gallons and the water >   always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, > 14" & 8" respectively. > >   Scott (Deer Park, Tx) >   Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my > BlackBerry® > >   -----Original Message----- >   From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 >   To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >   Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > >   Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do > it, but how do you clean >   under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using > them now is that I >   didn't want to have to break down the tank just to > do the cleaning under >   there, I realize that you do not need to do the > cleaning under there as >   often as you do the vac of the sub but still it > needs to be done once in a >   while, right? I am just not wanting to have to > stress the fish and pretty >   much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it > ... I am just wondering >   if there is an affective way to do it with out the > actual break down >   every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough > of a breakdown cleaning >   if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. > >   MM & MP, till we MM again >   Tricia >   '73 >   KG6PNC >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: bill 1433 >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > >   Hi Tricia, > >   I have kept fish since the 70's and although many > will >   say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell > you >   that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 > gallon >   with out one. BUT..... > >   The use of one does not mean that any of the basic > rules >   of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of > the >   term UG filters is not really correct, they are > actually water-movers. > >   For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, > not >   over feeding your fish, all of these rules still > apply and should >   be adhered too. > >   OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going > to find >   any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, > save for a sump system; >   that will allow for such a large bacterial field? > Only the use of a canister >   filter will support a large field. Once setup and > supporting the field (4 to >   6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For > operation of the filter >   properly, I would also add power heads rather >   than the use of air-stones. > >   Bill > >   --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   wrote: > >   > From: Trycya <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF >   > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM >   > I am considering possibly adding a >   > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks > up and >   > running for a few years, but I have been > wondering if adding >   > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks > cleaner. One >   > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to > have to >   > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, > is there a >   > way to safely clean under without doing the > break >   > down? >   > >   > I am researching before I make my decision. I > also >   > want to make sure I have enough to convince my > Hubby to help >   > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I > decide to do >   > it. >   > >   > Thanks >   > Tricia >   > >   > >   > >   > ------------------------------------ >   > >   > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience > & ask >   > ?s >   > >   > >   > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below > it when >   > replying, Thank You. >   > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >   > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> >   > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all > TEXT that is >   > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING > the TOPIC of >   > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > -> i.e. "new >   > subject (was re: old subject)" <- >   > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >   > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >   > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this > matter. >   > >   > If you do not want all of the groups emails, > instead of >   > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery > option by >   > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. >   > >   > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com >   <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > >   > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 > posts at a >   > time in a single email >   > >   > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com >   <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > >   > for the No E-Mail option where you will still > be able to >   > read messages on the group and post replies. >   > >   > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com >   <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > >   > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups > Links >   > >   > >   > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> >   > >   > >   > > >   [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > >   [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > >   [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > >   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52022	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

A lot to think about... but I have time since it will be a while before I can afford to purchase the big tank, my main thing is wanting to combine the 2 into 1 and still keep them healthy. I am wanting to add live plants as well so I guess I need to research more and look @ things a bit more... Thanks all MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, I’m going to try and address all of the remarks and comments from Harry, Donna(good hearing from you) and Scott so far. First, all of these people are basically correct in their comments and, as Harry pointed out; you cannot have live plants with a UG system. First the plant roots clog the plates and second, the plants will not get enough nutrients to sustain them because of the speed the water is moving, they will not have a chance to feed properly. When Donna mentioned about the mock under the plates, if you have it, you are feeding your fish way too much food. Also the simple work-around for this is to drill the bottom of the tank and install drains and valves. If you’re using one of the Acrylic tanks this is no problem, if the tank is all-glass, have a glass cutting shop drill the holes using diamond drills. As I said before, this is not a necessary step but I have seen tanks setup at Sea World that do exactly that and with no problems at all. Scott mentioned a larger tank to the tune of 150 to 200 gallons. I am here assuming that you mean for a tank this size, bigger fish. You would never find plates over 18’’ wide. Dead spots would then occur and the true purpose of the UG would be lost. Then too we must consider the aspects of such a tank with plastic lift tubes all over it, not very pretty to look at, is it? Next is the obvious point. Will the fish tolerate the lift tubes? I once had a 100-gallon tank with Oscars. They did not like the lift tubes and ripped them out every chance they got. In the end I had to remove them, their heater, and all gravel, Mr. Oscar was happy. The last point is about the gravel itself. For UG applications you must use a tumbled stone with no sharp edges (this can be found in most Garden and Pond shops). Why? If you would use regular aquarium gravel, you must be sure (hopefully thru vacuuming and water changes) that the gravel does not pack tightly and if your using power heads, this can happen very easily. In summing up, what’s the best setup? Take the UG money and apply it to a good or even a very good, canister filer. If you buy one with a large capacity housing as mentioned by others you will have plenty of room for as much bio material as you could ever need. Some that come to mind are Rena, Eheim to name just a few. Rena’s XP3 will do 350 gallons per hour and has a massive housing with 3 baskets for filtering materials. Good luck and please keep us posted, I hope I have helped, 73, Bill --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 7:04 PM > one of the advantages is that it > would be sucking the water from the bottom at a more > consistent rate and moving it to the top keeping a more > stable temp. Also from what I have read and learned > talking with others around where I live it seems to me that > with the added use of the power heads more > oxygenation. And it looks to me like a better culture > growing. I will still use the HOB filter as well just > for the added filtration, but I am definitely thinking for > me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to wait till I > get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and get rid of > the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the ugf in w new > sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want to keep a few > for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the water from > the current tanks to help w cycling > > MM & MP, till we MM again > Tricia > '73 > KG6PNC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Donna Ransome > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 2:38 PM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] UGF > > > > What would be the advantage of a UGF? The > disadvantages are clear. > > I would use 1-2 canisters or HOB filters or even a > sponge filter before I > would use a UGF. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > Behalf Of jshphoto@... > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 4:55 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > Tricia, > > I keep 3 red eared slider turtles in a 55 gallon > tank with a UGF, Marineland > Magnum 350, and with 4" of gravel, I never had to > take out the UGF in five > years. > > I'm using the same basic set-up with my 75 tank, > except with a powerhead at > the opposite end of the tank from the canister > filter and haven't removed > the UGF in nearly 2 years. Monthly water changes of > 20 gallons and the water > always test fine. And this is with two large plecos, > 14" & 8" respectively. > > Scott (Deer Park, Tx) > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my > BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Tricia Wilkerson" <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > Power heads is the direction I am leaning if I do > it, but how do you clean > under the ugf ... the biggest reason I am not using > them now is that I > didn't want to have to break down the tank just to > do the cleaning under > there, I realize that you do not need to do the > cleaning under there as > often as you do the vac of the sub but still it > needs to be done once in a > while, right? I am just not wanting to have to > stress the fish and pretty > much take up half a day to do the cleaning under it > ... I am just wondering > if there is an affective way to do it with out the > actual break down > every... once maybe twice a year is more than enough > of a breakdown cleaning > if the reg pwc and vac is done in my book. > > MM & MP, till we MM again > Tricia > '73 > KG6PNC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bill 1433 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2011 7:47 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > Hi Tricia, > > I have kept fish since the 70's and although many > will > say that they have no use for UG filters, I can tell > you > that I would not setup any aquarium larger than a 30 > gallon > with out one. BUT..... > > The use of one does not mean that any of the basic > rules > of successful aquarium keeping be broken. The use of > the > term UG filters is not really correct, they are > actually water-movers. > > For instance, PWC's along with vacuuming the gravel, > not > over feeding your fish, all of these rules still > apply and should > be adhered too. > > OK, why use them at all? Simple, where are you going > to find > any bio-filter larger than the tanks own bottom, > save for a sump system; > that will allow for such a large bacterial field? > Only the use of a canister > filter will support a large field. Once setup and > supporting the field (4 to > 6 weeks), your tank will remain crystal clear. For > operation of the filter > properly, I would also add power heads rather > than the use of air-stones. > > Bill > > --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > From: Trycya <trycya@... > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] UGF > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Friday, September 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > > I am considering possibly adding a > > UGF for both of my tanks. I have had the tanks > up and > > running for a few years, but I have been > wondering if adding > > one to the tanks would help keep my tanks > cleaner. One > > of my biggest concerns is that I do not want to > have to > > totally brake down the tanks to clean the UGF, > is there a > > way to safely clean under without doing the > break > > down? > > > > I am researching before I make my decision. I > also > > want to make sure I have enough to convince my > Hubby to help > > me with the break down to set the UGF up if I > decide to do > > it. > > > > Thanks > > Tricia > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience > & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below > it when > > replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all > TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING > the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this > matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, > instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery > option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 > posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still > be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups > Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52023	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Hi Tricia, here are just a few more things to consider.  <g>   If plants are on your mind at all, forget the UG.  We quickly mentioned the tanks inhabitants.  If they are almost any large Cichlid, forget the plants.  On the other hand, you can’t or probably would not, fill this tank with Neon Tetras either. In addition, please remember that any large tank is going to be difficult to light adequately for plants and be expensive.  Sheer size at 72 long by 24 wide x 28 inches deep makes it difficult.   If it were I just starting out, I would do some checking.  First, find a tank this large and see what others are keeping and study their layout, lights, filtering, and of course the tanks inhabitants.  If you cannot find any, check the photo section of this group and others.  Also, you have not stated, but I am assuming we are still talking about a freshwater tank and not salt?    Finally, how long have you been in the hobby, and before I forget again to ask, do you know what the water parameters are from your local water source?  Things like pH, GH, KH, nitrates or phosphates, all of this information is easy obtained by a good quality water test kit.  This is very important information to have at your fingertips because it will also be a guide to what fish will do best in your area with the conditions you have.  More questions?  Just ask us.   Bill                                   --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 2:21 PM > A lot to think about... but I have > time since it will be a while before I can afford to > purchase the big tank, my main thing is wanting to combine > the 2 into 1 and still keep them healthy.  I am wanting > to add live plants as well so I guess I need to research > more and look @ things a bit more... > Thanks all > > MM & MP, till we MM again > Tricia > '73 > KG6PNC >   ----- Original Message ----- >   From: bill 1433 >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >   Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:01 AM >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > >     >   Hi Tricia, > >   I’m going to try and address all of the > remarks and comments from Harry, Donna(good hearing from > you) and Scott so far. > >   First, all of these people are basically correct in > their comments and, as >   Harry pointed out; you cannot have live plants with > a UG system. First the >   plant roots clog the plates and second, the plants > will not get enough nutrients to sustain them because of the > speed the water is moving, they will not have a chance to > feed properly. > >   When Donna mentioned about the mock under the > plates, if you have it, you >   are feeding your fish way too much food. Also the > simple work-around for this is to drill the bottom of the > tank and install drains and valves. If you’re using > one of the Acrylic tanks this is no problem, if the tank is > all-glass, have a glass cutting shop drill the holes using > diamond drills. As I said before, this is not a necessary > step but I have seen tanks setup at Sea World that do > exactly that >   and with no problems at all. > >   Scott mentioned a larger tank to the tune of 150 to > 200 gallons. I am here assuming that you mean for a tank > this size, bigger fish. You would >   never find plates over 18’’ wide. Dead > spots would then occur and the true >   purpose of the UG would be lost. Then too we must > consider the aspects of such a tank with plastic lift tubes > all over it, not very pretty to look at, is it? > >   Next is the obvious point. Will the fish tolerate > the lift tubes? I once had a 100-gallon tank with Oscars. > They did not like the lift tubes and ripped them out every > chance they got. In the end I had to remove them, their > heater, and all gravel, Mr. Oscar was happy. > >   The last point is about the gravel itself. For UG > applications you must use a tumbled stone with no sharp > edges (this can be found in most Garden and Pond shops). > Why? If you would use regular aquarium gravel, you must be > sure (hopefully thru vacuuming and water changes) that the > gravel does not pack tightly and if your using power heads, > this can happen very easily. > >   In summing up, what’s the best setup? Take > the UG money and apply it to a >   good or even a very good, canister filer. If you buy > one with a large capacity housing as mentioned by others you > will have plenty of room for as much bio material as you > could ever need. Some that come to mind are Rena, Eheim to > name just a few. Rena’s XP3 will do 350 gallons per > hour and has a massive housing with 3 baskets for filtering > materials. > >   Good luck and please keep us posted, I hope I have > helped, > >   73, Bill > >   --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > wrote: > >   > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> >   > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF >   > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 7:04 PM >   > one of the advantages is that it >   > would be sucking the water from the bottom at a > more >   > consistent rate and moving it to the top > keeping a more >   > stable temp.  Also from what I have read > and learned >   > talking with others around where I live it > seems to me that >   > with the added use of the power heads more >   > oxygenation.  And it looks to me like a > better culture >   > growing.  I will still use the HOB filter > as well just >   > for the added filtration, but I am definitely > thinking for >   > me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to > wait till I >   > get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and > get rid of >   > the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the > ugf in w new >   > sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want > to keep a few >   > for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the > water from >   > the current tanks to help w cycling >   > >   > MM & MP, till we MM again >   > Tricia >   > '73 >   > KG6PNC >   >   ----- Original Message ----- >   >   From: Donna Ransome >   >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > >   >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 2:38 PM >   >   Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] > UGF >   > >   > >   >      >   >   What would be the advantage of > a UGF? The >   > disadvantages are clear. >   > >   >   I would use 1-2 canisters or > HOB filters or even a >   > sponge filter before I >   >   would use a UGF. >   > >   >   _____ >   > >   >   From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] >   > On >   >   Behalf Of jshphoto@... >   >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 4:55 PM >   >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF >   > >   >   Tricia, >   > >   >   I keep 3 red eared slider > turtles in a 55 gallon >   > tank with a UGF, Marineland >   >   Magnum 350, and with 4" of > gravel, I never had to >   > take out the UGF in five >   >   years. >   > >   >   I'm using the same basic > set-up with my 75 tank, >   > except with a powerhead at >   >   the opposite end of the tank > from the canister >   > filter and haven't removed >   >   the UGF in nearly 2 years. > Monthly water changes of >   > 20 gallons and the water >   >   always test fine. And this is > with two large plecos, >   > 14" & 8" respectively. >   > >   >   Scott (Deer Park, Tx) >   >   Sent on the Sprint® Now > Network from my >   > BlackBerry® >   > >   >   -----Original Message----- >   >   From: "Tricia Wilkerson" > <trycya@... >   > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   >   Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   >   Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 > >   >   To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > >   >   Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   > >   >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF >   > >   >   Power heads is the direction I > am leaning if I do >   > it, but how do you clean >   >   under the ugf ... the biggest > reason I am not using >   > them now is that I >   >   didn't want to have to break > down the tank just to >   > do the cleaning under >   >   there, I realize that you do > not need to do the >   > cleaning under there as >   >   often as you do the vac of the > sub but still it >   > needs to be done once in a >   >   while, right? I am just not > wanting to have to >   > stress the fish and pretty >   >   much take up half a day to do > the cleaning under it >   > ... I am just wondering >   >   if there is an affective way > to do it with out the >   > actual break down >   >   every... once maybe twice a > year is more than enough >   > of a breakdown cleaning >   >   if the reg pwc and vac is done > in my book. >   > >   >   MM & MP, till we MM again >   >   Tricia >   >   '73 >   >   KG6PNC >   >   ----- Original Message ----- >   >   From: bill 1433 >   >   To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   >   Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 7:47 AM >   >   Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF >   > >   >   Hi Tricia, >   > >   >   I have kept fish since the > 70's and although many >   > will >   >   say that they have no use for > UG filters, I can tell >   > you >   >   that I would not setup any > aquarium larger than a 30 >   > gallon >   >   with out one. BUT..... >   > >   >   The use of one does not mean > that any of the basic >   > rules >   >   of successful aquarium keeping > be broken. The use of >   > the >   >   term UG filters is not really > correct, they are >   > actually water-movers. >   > >   >   For instance, PWC's along with > vacuuming the gravel, >   > not >   >   over feeding your fish, all of > these rules still >   > apply and should >   >   be adhered too. >   > >   >   OK, why use them at all? > Simple, where are you going >   > to find >   >   any bio-filter larger than the > tanks own bottom, >   > save for a sump system; >   >   that will allow for such a > large bacterial field? >   > Only the use of a canister >   >   filter will support a large > field. Once setup and >   > supporting the field (4 to >   >   6 weeks), your tank will > remain crystal clear. For >   > operation of the filter >   >   properly, I would also add > power heads rather >   >   than the use of air-stones. >   > >   >   Bill >   > >   >   --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya > <trycya@... >   > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   >   wrote: >   > >   >   > From: Trycya <trycya@... >   > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > >   >   > Subject: [AquaticLife] > UGF >   >   > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >   > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> >   >   > Date: Friday, September > 2, 2011, 3:24 PM >   >   > I am considering possibly > adding a >   >   > UGF for both of my tanks. > I have had the tanks >   > up and >   >   > running for a few years, > but I have been >   > wondering if adding >   >   > one to the tanks would > help keep my tanks >   > cleaner. One >   >   > of my biggest concerns is > that I do not want to >   > have to >   >   > totally brake down the > tanks to clean the UGF, >   > is there a >   >   > way to safely clean under > without doing the >   > break >   >   > down? >   >   > >   >   > I am researching before I > make my decision. I >   > also >   >   > want to make sure I have > enough to convince my >   > Hubby to help >   >   > me with the break down to > set the UGF up if I >   > decide to do >   >   > it. >   >   > >   >   > Thanks >   >   > Tricia >   >   > >   >   > >   >   > >   >   > > ------------------------------------ >   >   > >   >   > AquaticLife · A great > way to share experience >   > & ask >   >   > ?s >   >   > >   >   > >   >   > Please, DELETE this line > and EVERYTHING below >   > it when >   >   > replying, Thank You. >   >   > >   > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >   >   > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , >   > .·´¯`·..><((((º> >   >   > PLEASE, when you REPLY to > a post, DELETE all >   > TEXT that is >   >   > NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING >   > the TOPIC of >   >   > the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE >   > -> i.e. "new >   >   > subject (was re: old > subject)" <- >   >   > >   > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >   >   > , >   > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >   >   > We Thank You in Advance > for Your HELP in this >   > matter. >   >   > >   >   > If you do not want all of > the groups emails, >   > instead of >   >   > unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery >   > option by >   >   > clicking on "Edit My > Membership" on the home >   > page. >   >   > >   >   > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com >   > >   <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> >   > >   >   > to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 >   > posts at a >   >   > time in a single email >   >   > >   >   > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com >   > >   <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> >   > >   >   > for the No E-Mail option > where you will still >   > be able to >   >   > read messages on the > group and post replies. >   >   > >   >   > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com >   > >   <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> >   > >   >   > to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups >   > Links >   >   > >   >   > >   >   > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com >   >  >   > > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> >   >   > >   >   > >   >   > >   > >   >   [Non-text portions of this > message have been >   > removed] >   > >   >   [Non-text portions of this > message have been >   > removed] >   > >   >   [Non-text portions of this > message have been >   > removed] >   > >   > >   > >   >    >   > >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] >   > >   > >   > >   > ------------------------------------ >   > >   > AquaticLife · A great way to share > experience & ask >   > ?s >   > >   > >   > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below > it when >   > replying, Thank You. >   > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> >   > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> >   > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all > TEXT that is >   > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING > the TOPIC of >   > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > -> i.e. "new >   > subject (was re: old subject)" <- >   > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. >   > , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >   > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this > matter. >   > >   > If you do not want all of the groups emails, > instead of >   > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery > option by >   > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home > page.  >   > >   > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com >   > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 > posts at a >   > time in a single email >   > >   > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com >   > for the No E-Mail option where you will still > be able to >   > read messages on the group and post replies. >   > >   > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com >   > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups > Links >   > >   > >   >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com >   > >   > >   > > > >   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52024	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: re-posting UG

Hi Tricia, here are just a few more things to consider. <g> If plants are on your mind at all, forget the UG. We quickly mentioned the tanks inhabitants. If they are almost any large Cichlid, forget the plants. On the other hand, you can’t or probably would not, fill this tank with Neon Tetras either. In addition, please remember that any large tank is going to be difficult to light adequately for plants and be expensive. Sheer size at 72 long by 24 wide x 28 inches deep makes it difficult. If it were I just starting out, I would do some checking. First, find a tank this large and see what others are keeping and study their layout, lights, filtering, and of course the tanks inhabitants. If you cannot find any, check the photo section of this group and others. Also, you have not stated, but I am assuming we are still talking about a freshwater tank and not salt? Finally, how long have you been in the hobby and before I forget again to ask, do you know what the water parameters are from your local water source? Things like pH, GH, KH, nitrates or phosphates, all of this information is easy obtained by a good quality water test kit. This is very important information to have at your fingertips because it will also be a guide to what fish will do best in your area with the conditions you have. More questions? Just ask us. Bill

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52025	From: Tricia Wilkerson	Date: 9/4/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

Plants are something I am considering... mostly looking @ creating a java moss wall and maybe a bit of water sprite as a floater... and a few others which I haven't decided on. I keep guppies, corries, garras, ghost cats, dojos, yo yo loach, khuli loach, Otto cats, hi fin tetras and the pest snails that killed my golden mystery snails (working on getting rid of the pest snails slowly so that someday I can get the goldens back). These 2 tanks have been going for 6 years or better. I am going to add a couple more garras, ottos, khulis, and of course a few more guppies just for new blood lines (already do this on reg basis) when I get the larger tank... it is looking more like I am going to nix the ugf idea really want the live plants... no idea on the water parameters haven't tested in a while MM & MP, till we MM again Tricia '73 KG6PNC ----- Original Message ----- From: bill 1433 To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF Hi Tricia, here are just a few more things to consider. <g> If plants are on your mind at all, forget the UG. We quickly mentioned the tanks inhabitants. If they are almost any large Cichlid, forget the plants. On the other hand, you can’t or probably would not, fill this tank with Neon Tetras either. In addition, please remember that any large tank is going to be difficult to light adequately for plants and be expensive. Sheer size at 72 long by 24 wide x 28 inches deep makes it difficult. If it were I just starting out, I would do some checking. First, find a tank this large and see what others are keeping and study their layout, lights, filtering, and of course the tanks inhabitants. If you cannot find any, check the photo section of this group and others. Also, you have not stated, but I am assuming we are still talking about a freshwater tank and not salt? Finally, how long have you been in the hobby, and before I forget again to ask, do you know what the water parameters are from your local water source? Things like pH, GH, KH, nitrates or phosphates, all of this information is easy obtained by a good quality water test kit. This is very important information to have at your fingertips because it will also be a guide to what fish will do best in your area with the conditions you have. More questions? Just ask us. Bill --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> wrote: > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 2:21 PM > A lot to think about... but I have > time since it will be a while before I can afford to > purchase the big tank, my main thing is wanting to combine > the 2 into 1 and still keep them healthy. I am wanting > to add live plants as well so I guess I need to research > more and look @ things a bit more... > Thanks all > > MM & MP, till we MM again > Tricia > '73 > KG6PNC > ----- Original Message ----- > From: bill 1433 > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 9:01 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > > > Hi Tricia, > > I’m going to try and address all of the > remarks and comments from Harry, Donna(good hearing from > you) and Scott so far. > > First, all of these people are basically correct in > their comments and, as > Harry pointed out; you cannot have live plants with > a UG system. First the > plant roots clog the plates and second, the plants > will not get enough nutrients to sustain them because of the > speed the water is moving, they will not have a chance to > feed properly. > > When Donna mentioned about the mock under the > plates, if you have it, you > are feeding your fish way too much food. Also the > simple work-around for this is to drill the bottom of the > tank and install drains and valves. If you’re using > one of the Acrylic tanks this is no problem, if the tank is > all-glass, have a glass cutting shop drill the holes using > diamond drills. As I said before, this is not a necessary > step but I have seen tanks setup at Sea World that do > exactly that > and with no problems at all. > > Scott mentioned a larger tank to the tune of 150 to > 200 gallons. I am here assuming that you mean for a tank > this size, bigger fish. You would > never find plates over 18’’ wide. Dead > spots would then occur and the true > purpose of the UG would be lost. Then too we must > consider the aspects of such a tank with plastic lift tubes > all over it, not very pretty to look at, is it? > > Next is the obvious point. Will the fish tolerate > the lift tubes? I once had a 100-gallon tank with Oscars. > They did not like the lift tubes and ripped them out every > chance they got. In the end I had to remove them, their > heater, and all gravel, Mr. Oscar was happy. > > The last point is about the gravel itself. For UG > applications you must use a tumbled stone with no sharp > edges (this can be found in most Garden and Pond shops). > Why? If you would use regular aquarium gravel, you must be > sure (hopefully thru vacuuming and water changes) that the > gravel does not pack tightly and if your using power heads, > this can happen very easily. > > In summing up, what’s the best setup? Take > the UG money and apply it to a > good or even a very good, canister filer. If you buy > one with a large capacity housing as mentioned by others you > will have plenty of room for as much bio material as you > could ever need. Some that come to mind are Rena, Eheim to > name just a few. Rena’s XP3 will do 350 gallons per > hour and has a massive housing with 3 baskets for filtering > materials. > > Good luck and please keep us posted, I hope I have > helped, > > 73, Bill > > --- On Sat, 9/3/11, Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > wrote: > > > From: Tricia Wilkerson <trycya@...> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] UGF > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Saturday, September 3, 2011, 7:04 PM > > one of the advantages is that it > > would be sucking the water from the bottom at a > more > > consistent rate and moving it to the top > keeping a more > > stable temp. Also from what I have read > and learned > > talking with others around where I live it > seems to me that > > with the added use of the power heads more > > oxygenation. And it looks to me like a > better culture > > growing. I will still use the HOB filter > as well just > > for the added filtration, but I am definitely > thinking for > > me the UGF is a good thing, but I am going to > wait till I > > get my bigger tank (hoping for 150-200 gal) and > get rid of > > the 2 55 gal, when I set that up I will put the > ugf in w new > > sub so I can knock down my snail infest (want > to keep a few > > for the loaches to enjoy) and trans some of the > water from > > the current tanks to help w cycling > > > > MM & MP, till we MM again > > Tricia > > '73 > > KG6PNC > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Donna Ransome > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 2:38 PM > > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] > UGF > > > > > > > > What would be the advantage of > a UGF? The > > disadvantages are clear. > > > > I would use 1-2 canisters or > HOB filters or even a > > sponge filter before I > > would use a UGF. > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > > On > > Behalf Of jshphoto@... > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 4:55 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF > > > > Tricia, > > > > I keep 3 red eared slider > turtles in a 55 gallon > > tank with a UGF, Marineland > > Magnum 350, and with 4" of > gravel, I never had to > > take out the UGF in five > > years. > > > > I'm using the same basic > set-up with my 75 tank, > > except with a powerhead at > > the opposite end of the tank > from the canister > > filter and haven't removed > > the UGF in nearly 2 years. > Monthly water changes of > > 20 gallons and the water > > always test fine. And this is > with two large plecos, > > 14" & 8" respectively. > > > > Scott (Deer Park, Tx) > > Sent on the Sprint® Now > Network from my > > BlackBerry® > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Tricia Wilkerson" > <trycya@... > > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:08:55 > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF > > > > Power heads is the direction I > am leaning if I do > > it, but how do you clean > > under the ugf ... the biggest > reason I am not using > > them now is that I > > didn't want to have to break > down the tank just to > > do the cleaning under > > there, I realize that you do > not need to do the > > cleaning under there as > > often as you do the vac of the > sub but still it > > needs to be done once in a > > while, right? I am just not > wanting to have to > > stress the fish and pretty > > much take up half a day to do > the cleaning under it > > ... I am just wondering > > if there is an affective way > to do it with out the > > actual break down > > every... once maybe twice a > year is more than enough > > of a breakdown cleaning > > if the reg pwc and vac is done > in my book. > > > > MM & MP, till we MM again > > Tricia > > '73 > > KG6PNC > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: bill 1433 > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Saturday, September 03, > 2011 7:47 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] > UGF > > > > Hi Tricia, > > > > I have kept fish since the > 70's and although many > > will > > say that they have no use for > UG filters, I can tell > > you > > that I would not setup any > aquarium larger than a 30 > > gallon > > with out one. BUT..... > > > > The use of one does not mean > that any of the basic > > rules > > of successful aquarium keeping > be broken. The use of > > the > > term UG filters is not really > correct, they are > > actually water-movers. > > > > For instance, PWC's along with > vacuuming the gravel, > > not > > over feeding your fish, all of > these rules still > > apply and should > > be adhered too. > > > > OK, why use them at all? > Simple, where are you going > > to find > > any bio-filter larger than the > tanks own bottom, > > save for a sump system; > > that will allow for such a > large bacterial field? > > Only the use of a canister > > filter will support a large > field. Once setup and > > supporting the field (4 to > > 6 weeks), your tank will > remain crystal clear. For > > operation of the filter > > properly, I would also add > power heads rather > > than the use of air-stones. > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Fri, 9/2/11, Trycya > <trycya@... > > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > From: Trycya <trycya@... > > <mailto:trycya%40gmail.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] > UGF > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Friday, September > 2, 2011, 3:24 PM > > > I am considering possibly > adding a > > > UGF for both of my tanks. > I have had the tanks > > up and > > > running for a few years, > but I have been > > wondering if adding > > > one to the tanks would > help keep my tanks > > cleaner. One > > > of my biggest concerns is > that I do not want to > > have to > > > totally brake down the > tanks to clean the UGF, > > is there a > > > way to safely clean under > without doing the > > break > > > down? > > > > > > I am researching before I > make my decision. I > > also > > > want to make sure I have > enough to convince my > > Hubby to help > > > me with the break down to > set the UGF up if I > > decide to do > > > it. > > > > > > Thanks > > > Tricia > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great > way to share experience > > & ask > > > ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line > and EVERYTHING below > > it when > > > replying, Thank You. > > > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to > a post, DELETE all > > TEXT that is > > > NOT important to the > reply & if CHANGING > > the TOPIC of > > > the original message > MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE > > -> i.e. "new > > > subject (was re: old > subject)" <- > > > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > > , > > > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance > for Your HELP in this > > matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of > the groups emails, > > instead of > > > unsubscribing, you can > change your delivery > > option by > > > clicking on "Edit My > Membership" on the home > > page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > to receive the digest, > which includes up to 25 > > posts at a > > > time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > for the No E-Mail option > where you will still > > be able to > > > read messages on the > group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Groups > Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52026	From: ridgerunrbunny	Date: 9/5/2011
Subject: Re: UGF

When I was setting my 4 aquariums up I decided to try a UGF on one of the small 10 gallon tanks just to see if I liked it. I placed plastic mesh over the grill. The type you get in walmart in their sewing and crafts area for needle point. I thought it would keep gunk away from the holes of the grill (Just an opinion but it seems to work) and it has about 2 inches of gravel over that. In the past year I cleaned the tank once because something clogged the power head and it wasn't moving water. Out of the four tanks this one is my favorite. The water is clear, and the gravel is not green with algae. I have a sword plant in a red clay pot that looks like a tree trunk, (I made the pot) and plenty of hornwort. On the left side I have another plastic mesh covered with Core and moss sewn on. I use bamboo skewers to hold this in place as they fit perfectly between the UGF grill and the top plate. I am constantly cleaning the other tanks where this one is self sustaining. Bunny

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52027	From: Al Keep	Date: 9/5/2011
Subject: stocking.

hey folks. i set up a 10g horizontal tank that i want to make a nocturnal tank...cuzz its beside the bed and thats when were there... it has daylights and blue moonlights.... looks quite nice and the waterfall noise and shimmering light are nice to fall asleep to.... i have a couple ghost shrimp in there so far... im hoping to get a small group of corydoras hastatus.... any other ideas for small nocturnal fish in case my l.f.s. cant manage to order me some?? tks. all.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52028	From: k8cz	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: New member

Just a note to introduce myself. Name is Tom and I have been a long time member of the American Killifish Assn. and American Livebearer Assn. Interests are essentially the killies and livebearers native to US waters, but extended to the Carribean area and South America. I am also interested in all killies, whatever the country of origin. Tom, Ohio

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52029	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member

Welcome Tom Im bren and I breed guppies just for myself. Im also a goldfish nut, I've been playing musical chairs with some of mine and rehoming some and switching some from pond to tank and outdoor pond to indoor pond recently. What kind of livebearers are you interested in? Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: k8cz <k8cz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Sep 8, 2011 17:47:40 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] New member Just a note to introduce myself. Name is Tom and I have been a long time member of the American Killifish Assn. and American Livebearer Assn. Interests are essentially the killies and livebearers native to US waters, but extended to the Carribean area and South America. I am also interested in all killies, whatever the country of origin. Tom, Ohio [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52030	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: need fish

hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any other big kind of fish i can get.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52031	From: betti@optonline.net	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

I hope you're not planning on keeping those species together in one tank. For instance the tiger oscar fish would devour the koi and koi contain an enzyme within their flesh which binds vitamin B1 and would not be healthy for the oscar. Bad news for both fishes.The betta does not get very big and also would be a snack for the oscar. In fact betta are relatively peaceful fish except with other betta.So see what kinds you can get and then do more research to see which ones would be compatible. And enjoy that beautiful 75 gal tank!----- Original Message -----From: ursula garman Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:41 pmSubject: [AquaticLife] need fishTo: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. > i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some > free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi > fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any > other big kind of fish i can get.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52032	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

Koi can not be housed in a tank that small. In a pond they need at least 100 gallons each and that's in a pond that gives it enough swimming room already. If you like the carp family please consider golfish instead. You can buy them large and could have a few of those depending on their size and body type. Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: betti@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thu, Sep 8, 2011 21:58:55 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] need fish I hope you're not planning on keeping those species together in one tank. For instance the tiger oscar fish would devour the koi and koi contain an enzyme within their flesh which binds vitamin B1 and would not be healthy for the oscar. Bad news for both fishes.The betta does not get very big and also would be a snack for the oscar. In fact betta are relatively peaceful fish except with other betta.So see what kinds you can get and then do more research to see which ones would be compatible. And enjoy that beautiful 75 gal tank!----- Original Message -----From: ursula garman Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:41 pmSubject: [AquaticLife] need fishTo: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. > i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some > free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi > fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any > other big kind of fish i can get.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52033	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

Hi Ursula, Ditto to the last poster with regard to mixing these fish types in one tank. Koi are really only suitable for large ponds but if you really must keep them in a tank then I would strongly suggest at least 200 gallons per fish. They are very sociable fish so they need to be with their own kind & even if you only have 2 then you are looking at a 400 gallon tank with some serious filtration-remember these fishes can get to 3 feet in length. John*<o)))< * On 8 September 2011 22:49, <betti@...> wrote: > ** > > > I hope you're not planning on keeping those species together in one tank. > For instance the tiger oscar fish would devour the koi and koi contain an > enzyme within their flesh which binds vitamin B1 and would not be healthy > for the oscar. Bad news for both fishes.The betta does not get very big and > also would be a snack for the oscar. In fact betta are relatively peaceful > fish except with other betta.So see what kinds you can get and then do more > research to see which ones would be compatible. And enjoy that beautiful 75 > gal tank!----- Original Message -----From: ursula garman Date: Thursday, > September 8, 2011 5:41 pmSubject: [AquaticLife] need fishTo: > AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of > fresh water fish. > i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed > some > free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi > > fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any > other big > kind of fish i can get.> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52034	From: Gnatholebias	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member

Hi Bren, Nice to meet you. I'm more interested in the "wild" types of LB, Limias, goodeids and the like. I've pretty much done the guppy-mollie-swordtail thing in my 40+ years of keeping fish. I had a really nice strain of half-black red guppies back in the '70s. I'm now keeping Limia sp. 'Tiger' and Girardinus metallicus and most of what I have is known only by their scientific names. I joined the Amer. Killifish Association back in the late 70's and have been in and out of the hobby as work permitted. Now that I've retired I'm in for good. So I'm always on the lookout for killies, fish or eggs, and the rarer livebearers. Still like guppies but I need the others for BAP --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> wrote: > > Welcome Tom > Im bren and I breed guppies just for myself. Im also a goldfish nut, I've > been playing musical chairs with some of mine and rehoming some and > switching some from pond to tank and outdoor pond to indoor pond recently. > What kind of livebearers are you interested in? > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: k8cz <k8cz@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thu, Sep 8, 2011 17:47:40 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [AquaticLife] New member > > Just a note to introduce myself. > > Name is Tom and I have been a long time member of the American Killifish > Assn. and American Livebearer Assn. Interests are essentially the killies > and livebearers native to US waters, but extended to the Carribean area and > South America. > > I am also interested in all killies, whatever the country of origin. > > Tom, Ohio > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52035	From: haecklers	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

Are you in the US? I'll send you some Jack Dempsey babies if you pay shipping! :) I've got hundreds of them and nobody much wants them. When they get full-grown you'll have to pick your favorite one or two to keep (male and female is ok, two males probably not). If you keep a male and female you'll get lots of babies and then be overrun with fish like me! You can do them with some other aggressive fish if you start them all out as similar-sized babies - i.e. if they are all 1 inch. Sometimes it works with other kinds of fish, sometimes not. I had mine with some guppies so they could eat the babies as they were born. Every day there were one or two fewer guppies until they were all gone - my big male decided the parents were tasty too! If they are with other fish, tho, then if they want to breed there will be trouble and fish may get killed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ursula garman" <ursy9874@...> wrote: > > hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any other big kind of fish i can get. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52036	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: New member

Hello Tom:    Welcome to the group and...Have a Great Day!!!    The "Creature" ________________________________ From: k8cz <k8cz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 10:19 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] New member   Just a note to introduce myself. Name is Tom and I have been a long time member of the American Killifish Assn. and American Livebearer Assn. Interests are essentially the killies and livebearers native to US waters, but extended to the Carribean area and South America. I am also interested in all killies, whatever the country of origin. Tom, Ohio [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52037	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

i own six tanks. i know how to raise fish. From: "betti@..." <betti@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] need fish   I hope you're not planning on keeping those species together in one tank. For instance the tiger oscar fish would devour the koi and koi contain an enzyme within their flesh which binds vitamin B1 and would not be healthy for the oscar. Bad news for both fishes.The betta does not get very big and also would be a snack for the oscar. In fact betta are relatively peaceful fish except with other betta.So see what kinds you can get and then do more research to see which ones would be compatible. And enjoy that beautiful 75 gal tank!----- Original Message -----From: ursula garman Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:41 pmSubject: [AquaticLife] need fishTo: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. > i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some > free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi > fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any > other big kind of fish i can get.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52038	From: ursula garman	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

i sure do live in the u.s. how much you asking for the shipment payment? and that will be okay i have more than one tank for them. From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:02 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: need fish   Are you in the US? I'll send you some Jack Dempsey babies if you pay shipping! :) I've got hundreds of them and nobody much wants them. When they get full-grown you'll have to pick your favorite one or two to keep (male and female is ok, two males probably not). If you keep a male and female you'll get lots of babies and then be overrun with fish like me! You can do them with some other aggressive fish if you start them all out as similar-sized babies - i.e. if they are all 1 inch. Sometimes it works with other kinds of fish, sometimes not. I had mine with some guppies so they could eat the babies as they were born. Every day there were one or two fewer guppies until they were all gone - my big male decided the parents were tasty too! If they are with other fish, tho, then if they want to breed there will be trouble and fish may get killed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "ursula garman" <ursy9874@...> wrote: > > hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any other big kind of fish i can get. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52039	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/8/2011
Subject: Re: need fish

Hello Ursula, This is Mike, I am one of the many moderators here who has been approving your posts(I also have been approving them on the give and receive free fish group). You may want to give us all a brief introduction about yourself and the fish you keep. Otherwise well intentioned people WILL give advice and opinions about how to keep fish. I was going to post a reply myself about the fish you mentioned but time was short and I knew others would address it with you faster than I could. Welcome aboard. Mike G, a moderator. -----Original Message----- From: ursula garman <ursy9874@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 8, 2011 11:43 pm Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] need fish i own six tanks. i know how to raise fish. From: "betti@..." <betti@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 8, 2011 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] need fish   I hope you're not planning on keeping those species together in one tank. For instance the tiger oscar fish would devour the koi and koi contain an enzyme within their flesh which binds vitamin B1 and would not be healthy for the oscar. Bad news for both fishes.The betta does not get very big and also would be a snack for the oscar. In fact betta are relatively peaceful fish except with other betta.So see what kinds you can get and then do more research to see which ones would be compatible. And enjoy that beautiful 75 gal tank!----- Original Message -----From: ursula garman Date: Thursday, September 8, 2011 5:41 pmSubject: [AquaticLife] need fishTo: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> hello everyone. i am looking for all kinds of fresh water fish. > i just recently got me a 75 gallon fish tank and i nneed some > free fish. the type of fish i am looking for is sucker fish, koi > fish, betta fish, blue diamond fish, tiger oscar fish, and any > other big kind of fish i can get.> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52040	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Hide My Heater

I hate the way my glass tube submersible heater looks suctioned to the back of my tank. Other than plop a large plastic plant in front of it, what could I do to hide it? ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52041	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

How about a rock formation or drift wood? Bill --- On Fri, 9/9/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:32 AM > I hate the way my glass tube > submersible heater looks suctioned to the back of my > tank.  Other than plop a large plastic plant in front > of it, what could I do to hide it? > ~Kai > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52042	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

Get an in-line heater and take it out of the tank completely. I love mine. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of bill 1433 Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 1:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater How about a rock formation or drift wood? Bill --- On Fri, 9/9/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:32 AM > I hate the way my glass tube > submersible heater looks suctioned to the back of my > tank. Other than plop a large plastic plant in front > of it, what could I do to hide it? > ~Kai > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52043	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

Hi Kai, Donna's post just reminded me-I know the Eheim Professional range of canister filters have a heating attachment add-on called a Thermo Filter which sits inside the canister. John*<o)))< * On 9 September 2011 23:20, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > ** > > > Get an in-line heater and take it out of the tank completely. I love mine. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of bill 1433 > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 1:15 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > > > How about a rock formation or drift wood? > > Bill > > --- On Fri, 9/9/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com > > > > wrote: > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Date: Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:32 AM > > I hate the way my glass tube > > submersible heater looks suctioned to the back of my > > tank. Other than plop a large plastic plant in front > > of it, what could I do to hide it? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> > > �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. > > , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52044	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/9/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

Oh, if I only had a canister... I have two HOB's and have managed to disguise their intakes fairly well with plastic leafy vines. But that darn heater vexes me. So far, Bill's suggestion of something solid seems most practical. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Kai, > > Donna's post just reminded me-I know the Eheim Professional range of > canister filters have a heating attachment add-on called a Thermo Filter > which sits inside the canister. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 9 September 2011 23:20, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Get an in-line heater and take it out of the tank completely. I love mine. > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of bill 1433 > > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2011 1:15 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > > > > > > How about a rock formation or drift wood? > > > > Bill > > > > --- On Fri, 9/9/11, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > From: kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Hide My Heater > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Date: Friday, September 9, 2011, 10:32 AM > > > I hate the way my glass tube > > > submersible heater looks suctioned to the back of my > > > tank. Other than plop a large plastic plant in front > > > of it, what could I do to hide it? > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > > > ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > > replying, Thank You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> > > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > > time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> > > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> > > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife-fullfeatured%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52045	From: joe t	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

Kai, I have/had HOB filters that accomodated a heater in the filter itself. Do not know if they still have them, I have not bought one in years. But canister filters can get kinda costly. See if they still have the HOB that will accomodate a heater. Check the ones you have. They may be able to hold the heater also and you never knew it. joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52046	From: Nessa	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

Hi there I hope i can learn more from every one. i own at the moment 3 oranda, 2 fan tail, 5 shubunkin, and 3 common goldfish and i love them to death and i hope i can keep them with me for many years <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubunkin> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52047	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

Hi Nessa, Welcome to the group-I keep 6 Goldfish so I know how endearing their personalities can be. Big tank, frequent [& large] partial water changes & big filtration have always taken care of my lot. John*<o)))< * On 10 September 2011 22:40, Nessa <vanessaantonino89@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi there I hope i can learn more from every one. i own at the moment 3 > oranda, 2 fan tail, 5 shubunkin, and 3 common goldfish and i love them > to death and i hope i can keep them with me for many years > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubunkin> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52048	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/10/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

Hello:    Welcome to the group and...Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Nessa <vanessaantonino89@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2011 5:40 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Just wanna say hi since im new to the group   Hi there I hope i can learn more from every one. i own at the moment 3 oranda, 2 fan tail, 5 shubunkin, and 3 common goldfish and i love them to death and i hope i can keep them with me for many years <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubunkin> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52049	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Hide My Heater

The only HOB filter I know of that allows a heater in it is TetraTech, one of the few HOB filters I absolutely hate! They are made cheap while being fairly high priced, and the instruction for how to get them set up are just awful. Even people who have been working with HOB filters for many yrs have found it challenging to follow their instructions because they are so poorly written and its not a "simple" design that is just automatically figured out without instructions. My biggest dislike is still the cheap way they're made/cheap parts. That was one of Tetra's few products I have never liked, they really took a giant leap backwards when they put it out on the market. I have to agree that rock work and drift wood are the easiest, cheaper way to approach hiding a heater in the tank, not to mention the fish always enjoy having more territories to explore and claim and it adds to the overall appeal of the tank. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "joe t" <jett07002@...> wrote: > > > > Kai, I have/had HOB filters that accomodated a heater in the filter itself. Do not know if they still have them, I have not bought one in years. But canister filters can get kinda costly. See if they still have the HOB that will accomodate a heater. Check the ones you have. They may be able to hold the heater also and you never knew it. > > > joe t >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52050	From: Ray	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52051	From: Ray	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

Hello and welcome to the Group, Nessa. It's great to see you have a nice collection of Goldfish. With proper care, there's no reason to believe you can't keep these fish for many years to come. If you ever have any problems, please don't hesitate to ask for help. Would you please comment on how you're presently taking care of them, to enlighten us on your maintenance methods? Perhaps, if we see something amiss, we may be able to advise you further before you do have any fish problems -- like how big are they now, and what size tanks do you keep them in (for starters). Best of luck with them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nessa" <vanessaantonino89@...> wrote: > > Hi there I hope i can learn more from every one. i own at the moment 3 > oranda, 2 fan tail, 5 shubunkin, and 3 common goldfish and i love them > to death and i hope i can keep them with me for many years > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubunkin> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52052	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Hello:    Indeed he will.  I learned a lot from his posts.    R.I.P. Steve, we truly will miss you.    John (aka, "Spawn") ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)   It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52053	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

he is missed, I was wondering why I hadn't seen any of his postings. Enid ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)   It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52054	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Oh may god be with his loved ones.  Im so sorry to hear this, he was such a big part of this group. Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, Sep 11, 2011 20:58:34 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.) It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52055	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Hi Ray, I am one of the newer members but I have already seen some of Steve's interesting postings about all things aquatic so I know he will be greatly missed. On another [non-fish] forum that I have been a member of for some years we lost a prolific moderator recently so I know what the longer-standing members will be going through on here. The wonderful thing about these internet forums is that you can get to know someone so well even though they may be thousands of miles away & you never actually meet or even know what they look like but they are still regarded as a true friend-he will be greatly missed. John*<o)))< * On 11 September 2011 21:58, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend > Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer > members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to > get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the > extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of > us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to > be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this > Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of > his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was > just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly > afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were > discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really > thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know > Steve will be sorely missed. > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52056	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

I haven't been a member that long so I probably missed Steve's input. I'm sorry for that because I know how knowledgeable all the moderators are and have been such a tremendous help to me. My heart goes out to Steve's friends and family. It is my hope that we keep his memory alive by generously sharing our knowledge with others in a peaceful manner. Gail 125 gal cichlid tank 30 gal cichlid nursery tank _____ -----Original message----- It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52057	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Sorry to hear of a fellow members passing. Prayers sent to his family in there time of need. ________________________________ From: Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 5:57 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)   I haven't been a member that long so I probably missed Steve's input. I'm sorry for that because I know how knowledgeable all the moderators are and have been such a tremendous help to me. My heart goes out to Steve's friends and family. It is my hope that we keep his memory alive by generously sharing our knowledge with others in a peaceful manner. Gail 125 gal cichlid tank 30 gal cichlid nursery tank _____ -----Original message----- It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52058	From: haecklers	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

That's really a shame! He was such a nice guy, to spend so much time sharing his knowledge with us all. I'll certainly miss him! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52059	From: haecklers	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

I think I found his obituary http://www.foundandsons.com/obituaries/Stephen-Szabo/#/Obituary They have a way to leave condolences for the family.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52060	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Hi Folks, Yes Steve is gone but his words and advice are not!  Steve was a great believer in the printed word and was always reading and checking out some article out either for one of us or himself.     I mention this because I think Steve would still like to help us out when he can. By going to the group page and searching for his name as \\Steve// You can still find many of his comments and aid on a large range of issues.  I found over 5,000 of his contributions.   Bill     --- On Sun, 9/11/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.) > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, September 11, 2011, 7:53 PM > Hi Ray, > >   I am one of the newer members but I have already > seen some of Steve's > interesting postings about all things aquatic so I know he > will be greatly > missed. On another [non-fish] forum that I have been a > member of for some > years we lost a prolific moderator recently so I know what > the > longer-standing members will be going through on here. The > wonderful thing > about these internet forums is that you can get to know > someone so well even > though they may be thousands of miles away & you never > actually meet or even > know what they look like but they are still regarded as a > true friend-he > will be greatly missed. > >   John*<o)))< > > * > On 11 September 2011 21:58, Ray <sevenspringss@...> > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me > from my good friend > > Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. > Except for you newer > > members here only having several months with us, who > never had the chance to > > get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and > respected him for the > > extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most > accurate help any one of > > us could offer and the very helpful and personable > Moderator he proved to > > be. > > > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the > Spring, whether on this > > Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal > infection in one of > > his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we > all felt that it was > > just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be > back here shortly > > afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought > so, as we were > > discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this > very thing, and really > > thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is > not to be; I know > > Steve will be sorely missed. > > > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator > > > >  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52061	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

The aquarium hobby has had a great loss. We will all miss his experience and thoughtfulness and help to all. Charles H >That's really a shame! He was such a nice guy, to spend so much >time sharing his knowledge with us all. I'll certainly miss him! > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: >> >> It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my >>good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. >>Except for you newer members here only having several months with >>us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that >>everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely >>knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us >>could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved >>to be. >> >> I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether >>on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal >>infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm >>sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and >>that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill >>("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only >>this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was >>a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve >>will be sorely missed. >> >> Ray Wetzel -- Moderator > -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52062	From: pam andress	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

He will be missed by many. At least now he is no longer in pain. Pam Hi Folks, Yes Steve is gone but his words and advice are not! Steve was a great believer in the printed word and was always reading and checking out some article out either for one of us or himself. I mention this because I think Steve would still like to help us out when he can. By going to the group page and searching for his name as \\Steve// You can still find many of his comments and aid on a large range of issues. I found over 5,000 of his contributions. Bill > > > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me > from my good friend > > Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. > Except for you newer > > members here only having several months with us, who > never had the chance to > > get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and > respected him for the > > extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most > accurate help any one of > > us could offer and the very helpful and personable > Moderator he proved to > > be. > > > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the > Spring, whether on this > > Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal > infection in one of > > his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we > all felt that it was > > just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be > back here shortly > > afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought > so, as we were > > discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this > very thing, and really > > thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is > not to be; I know > > Steve will be sorely missed. > > > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> > �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. > , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52063	From: Eric Roberts	Date: 9/11/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Rest in peace brother. May you be sleeping with the fishes in the sky*said with Chicago accent* You will be greatly missed Eric From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 3:58 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.) It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. Ray Wetzel -- Moderator [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52064	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Oh how sad. I wish we had known sooner to have been able to tell him how much his input on this list has meant to us instead of talking about him posthumously. Yes, he will be missed. ~Kai > Ray wrote: > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52065	From: joe t	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Sad, very sad, indeed. I regret that I never got to meet him. joe t --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52066	From: Nessa	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

Right now Im sure my little guys are very stressed out since, Ive been moving from apartments and it has a bit of a distance for them to travel. Right now they are divided into two tanks, the bigger guys are in a 30gal and the smaller ones in a 20gal, I havent been able to fully bring all my tanks so they can all be in proper tanks. For the moment ive been putting, aquarium salt and stress coat to help them out a bit. The 3 common are about 6-7in including their tail and the the smallest is about 1in or a bit bigger and the rest are all in between. I would like to know what size tank would be good to have so that maybe all of them can be together? thanks --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hello and welcome to the Group, Nessa. It's great to see you have a nice collection of Goldfish. With proper care, there's no reason to believe you can't keep these fish for many years to come. If you ever have any problems, please don't hesitate to ask for help. Would you please comment on how you're presently taking care of them, to enlighten us on your maintenance methods? Perhaps, if we see something amiss, we may be able to advise you further before you do have any fish problems -- like how big are they now, and what size tanks do you keep them in (for starters). Best of luck with them. > > Ray > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Nessa" <vanessaantonino89@> wrote: > > > > Hi there I hope i can learn more from every one. i own at the moment 3 > > oranda, 2 fan tail, 5 shubunkin, and 3 common goldfish and i love them > > to death and i hope i can keep them with me for many years > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shubunkin> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52067	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/12/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Steve will be greatly missed! RIP Steve, and have fun taking care of all those fish in Heaven til the rest of us get there to help you! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. > > Ray Wetzel -- Moderator >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52068	From: William J. Scott	Date: 9/13/2011
Subject: Re: Just wanna say hi since im new to the group

So sad to get this report. Steve was such a great guy, and always's there to lend as helping hand to beginners & advanced hobbyists. RIP Steve, You will be greatly missed, but you left us all with great memories & knowledge. Bill Scott [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52069	From: eldred lim	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.)

Hi Ray I've been out from the forms for some time now due to other commitments and this piece of news comes as a shock. My Condolences to his family and friends. R.I.P., Steve Eldred To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: haecklers@... Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 01:35:37 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Steve Szabo (R.I.P.) That's really a shame! He was such a nice guy, to spend so much time sharing his knowledge with us all. I'll certainly miss him! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > It is with deep sorrow that I relay the report sent me from my good friend Lee Finley, of Steve Szabo's passing on Labor Day. Except for you newer members here only having several months with us, who never had the chance to get to know Steve, I know that everyone here knew and respected him for the extremely knowledgeable hobbyist he was, the most accurate help any one of us could offer and the very helpful and personable Moderator he proved to be. > > I don't remember where Steve told it back in the Spring, whether on this Group or another, that he had contracted a rare fungal infection in one of his lungs, but after he was operated on, I'm sure we all felt that it was just a matter of his recuperation and that he'd be back here shortly afterwards. I know Bill ("Warrenprint") and I thought so, as we were discussing Steve only this past Tuesday about this very thing, and really thought he was a bit overdue to return. Sadly, this is not to be; I know Steve will be sorely missed. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52070	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Cichlid Questions

The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and matched with other Malawis? Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was "wrong?" I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any more. Or does it? At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should they stay that way? Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52071	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Yes, it is OK to have ALL Yellows. How many Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? If you are doing a species tank 48" x 12" of yellow labs, 15 would be a good number. Different mbuna would have a different number, depending on aggression and size at maturity. What if my decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus are rock fish. The biotope would be to fill the tank to the rim with rocks. Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? In most cases, it doesn't matter. Some fish will try to match the substrate, but whether it causes their colors to go gray (with black) or go pale (with white) or stay the same varies with the fish. I've only had labs over sand-colored sand. Leleupi over black go gray. They will like sand better than gravel however. Flourite makes a sand that is black, and there is tahitian moon sand. I like to keep African Rift Lake cichlids at a pH of around 8.0 (my tap water of 7.8 is good). I'm not sure I would buy from a vendor who keeps all his fish in the same water regardless of requirements. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kuradi8 Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 2:02 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Cichlid Questions The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and matched with other Malawis? Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was "wrong?" I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any more. Or does it? At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should they stay that way? Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP ~Kai [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52072	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

> Donna Ransome wrote: > > Yes, it is OK to have ALL Yellows. > > If you are doing a species tank 48" x 12" of yellow labs, 15 would be a good number. > WOW! FIFTEEN?!?!? I'm really surprised that there can be that many. > > Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus are rock fish. The biotope would be to fill the tank to the rim with rocks. > Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I gotta re-think my tiki village. Especially if there will be over a dozen fish to house. > > > Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? > > In most cases, it doesn't matter. Some fish will try to match the > They will like sand better than gravel however. > > Flourite makes a sand that is black, and there is tahitian moon sand. > OK, good. I think Yellow Labs in a dark tank look STUNNING. I've seen both of those names online. I was leaning toward a fine gravel because it would be easier to clean. Sand would get sucked up by my tank-vacuum and into my waste bucket. Fine gravel would give up the detritus but the gravel itself would stay in the tank where it belongs. I assume Yellow Labs like to bulldoze and dig as much as other cichlids. The gravel I'm thinking of (if it still exists) is fine enough to allow them to do that. > > I like to keep African Rift Lake cichlids at a pH of around 8.0 (my tap water of 7.8 is good). I'm not sure I would buy from a vendor who keeps all his fish in the same water regardless of requirements. > My well water comes up iron-rich and a little on the acidic side. After it enters the house, it passes through a 2-phase filtration system that sucks out the iron and boosts the pH to neutral. If I were to keep proper Cichlid parameters, I'd have to augment the water. There are commercial chemicals. Some swear by baking soda. Others use corals and limestone. Any preferences? My only choices in this neck of the woods are PetsMart nearly 20 miles in one direction and PetsMart and PetCo about 30 miles in the other. Both have a section of cold water goldfish (etc) that seem to all share one filtration system. And a section or two of mixed tropicals (including cichlids) on a different wall that share a system or two. There are two Mom and Pop shops, one of which will (what a shame) probably be out of business before I'm ready and the other specializes in salt water. Thanks for your insight! ~Kai > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Kai wrote: > > The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: > > I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and matched with other Malawis? > > Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? > > Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was "wrong?" > > I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? > > Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? > > Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any more. Or does it? > > At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should they stay that way? > > Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP > ~Kai >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52073	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda as their main ingredient. And get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water goes through the softening. The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills really they will like sand better. You just run your hand through the sand and hold the python about an inch above to suck up the debris you stir up. I order a lot of my fish online when you are ready I can give you some vendors. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kuradi8 Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:08 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions > Donna Ransome wrote: > > Yes, it is OK to have ALL Yellows. > > If you are doing a species tank 48" x 12" of yellow labs, 15 would be a good number. > WOW! FIFTEEN?!?!? I'm really surprised that there can be that many. > > Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus are rock fish. The biotope would be to fill the tank to the rim with rocks. > Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I gotta re-think my tiki village. Especially if there will be over a dozen fish to house. > > > Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? > > In most cases, it doesn't matter. Some fish will try to match the > They will like sand better than gravel however. > > Flourite makes a sand that is black, and there is tahitian moon sand. > OK, good. I think Yellow Labs in a dark tank look STUNNING. I've seen both of those names online. I was leaning toward a fine gravel because it would be easier to clean. Sand would get sucked up by my tank-vacuum and into my waste bucket. Fine gravel would give up the detritus but the gravel itself would stay in the tank where it belongs. I assume Yellow Labs like to bulldoze and dig as much as other cichlids. The gravel I'm thinking of (if it still exists) is fine enough to allow them to do that. > > I like to keep African Rift Lake cichlids at a pH of around 8.0 (my tap water of 7.8 is good). I'm not sure I would buy from a vendor who keeps all his fish in the same water regardless of requirements. > My well water comes up iron-rich and a little on the acidic side. After it enters the house, it passes through a 2-phase filtration system that sucks out the iron and boosts the pH to neutral. If I were to keep proper Cichlid parameters, I'd have to augment the water. There are commercial chemicals. Some swear by baking soda. Others use corals and limestone. Any preferences? My only choices in this neck of the woods are PetsMart nearly 20 miles in one direction and PetsMart and PetCo about 30 miles in the other. Both have a section of cold water goldfish (etc) that seem to all share one filtration system. And a section or two of mixed tropicals (including cichlids) on a different wall that share a system or two. There are two Mom and Pop shops, one of which will (what a shame) probably be out of business before I'm ready and the other specializes in salt water. Thanks for your insight! ~Kai > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Kai wrote: > > The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: > > I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and matched with other Malawis? > > Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? > > Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was "wrong?" > > I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? > > Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? > > Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any more. Or does it? > > At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should they stay that way? > > Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP > ~Kai > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52074	From: haecklers	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Unless you want to remove all the rocks to vacuum, I'd stick with rocks along the back wall and fewer fish (remember, too, that rocks take up a lot of volume so there wouldn't be as much water as you would think). I saw one neat cichlid setup that used clay pots along the back wall, lined up in rows with every other row facing the opposite direction. I'd say to opt for limestone in the tank before trying to mess with baking soda, but it's really best to leave the pH alone, less stress on the fish from fluctuations. Also, keep in mind that if they're happy the labs will breed for you, so you may want to allow room for some babies in the tank. If you put a protective sponge over your filter intake you can put in some burrowing snails like MTS or the burrowing kind of ramshorn. Then the labs will have something to dig up and it solves your vacuuming problems. Plus, if they have fry you won't have to worry about the fry getting sucked into the filter. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda as their > main ingredient. > > > > And get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water goes > through the softening. > > > > The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills really they will > like sand better. You just run your hand through the sand and hold the > python about an inch above to suck up the debris you stir up. > > > > I order a lot of my fish online when you are ready I can give you some > vendors. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of kuradi8 > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:08 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions > > > > > > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > Yes, it is OK to have ALL Yellows. > > > > If you are doing a species tank 48" x 12" of yellow labs, 15 would be a > good number. > > > > WOW! FIFTEEN?!?!? I'm really surprised that there can be that many. > > > > > Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus are rock fish. The biotope would be to > fill the tank to the rim with rocks. > > > > Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I gotta re-think my tiki village. Especially if there will be > over a dozen fish to house. > > > > > > Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their > natural habitat? > > > > In most cases, it doesn't matter. Some fish will try to match the > > They will like sand better than gravel however. > > > > Flourite makes a sand that is black, and there is tahitian moon sand. > > > > OK, good. I think Yellow Labs in a dark tank look STUNNING. > > I've seen both of those names online. I was leaning toward a fine gravel > because it would be easier to clean. Sand would get sucked up by my > tank-vacuum and into my waste bucket. Fine gravel would give up the detritus > but the gravel itself would stay in the tank where it belongs. > > I assume Yellow Labs like to bulldoze and dig as much as other cichlids. The > gravel I'm thinking of (if it still exists) is fine enough to allow them to > do that. > > > > > I like to keep African Rift Lake cichlids at a pH of around 8.0 (my tap > water of 7.8 is good). I'm not sure I would buy from a vendor who keeps all > his fish in the same water regardless of requirements. > > > > My well water comes up iron-rich and a little on the acidic side. After it > enters the house, it passes through a 2-phase filtration system that sucks > out the iron and boosts the pH to neutral. If I were to keep proper Cichlid > parameters, I'd have to augment the water. > > There are commercial chemicals. Some swear by baking soda. Others use corals > and limestone. Any preferences? > > My only choices in this neck of the woods are PetsMart nearly 20 miles in > one direction and PetsMart and PetCo about 30 miles in the other. Both have > a section of cold water goldfish (etc) that seem to all share one filtration > system. And a section or two of mixed tropicals (including cichlids) on a > different wall that share a system or two. > > There are two Mom and Pop shops, one of which will (what a shame) probably > be out of business before I'm ready and the other specializes in salt water. > > Thanks for your insight! > ~Kai > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 > years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: > > > > I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids > -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow > color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and > matched with other Malawis? > > > > Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many > Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? > > > > Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is > that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more > aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my > decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm > thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was > "wrong?" > > > > I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put > something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will > never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of > and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? > > > > Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look > against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its > floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer > in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? > > > > Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to > have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think > were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've > only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any > more. Or does it? > > > > At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They > all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those > that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to > bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If > they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should > they stay that way? > > > > Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52075	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

A couple of suggestions. First. Put the rocks in before the substrate when assembling your tank, and then don’t move them. I only move rocks maybe once a year, and only then if necessary to catch a particular fish. With no substrate underneath, dirt cannot accumulate there. And use a turkey baster to blast water through the pile during a water change to remove debris from there. You want to over-filter African Rift Lake tanks, I like about 7X hourly turnover. You will find there is not much debris to vacuum. Labs are the most peaceful mbuna so you may be fine with less fish. A more aggressive mbuna would do better with the crowd to help manage aggression. You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake cichlid tank. So, limestone does not have a chance to dissolve quickly enough to have a real impact on pH. It is true it’s best to leave it alone if your tap water is reasonable, thus the suggestion to check the water before it is softened. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 5:38 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions Unless you want to remove all the rocks to vacuum, I'd stick with rocks along the back wall and fewer fish (remember, too, that rocks take up a lot of volume so there wouldn't be as much water as you would think). I saw one neat cichlid setup that used clay pots along the back wall, lined up in rows with every other row facing the opposite direction. I'd say to opt for limestone in the tank before trying to mess with baking soda, but it's really best to leave the pH alone, less stress on the fish from fluctuations. Also, keep in mind that if they're happy the labs will breed for you, so you may want to allow room for some babies in the tank. If you put a protective sponge over your filter intake you can put in some burrowing snails like MTS or the burrowing kind of ramshorn. Then the labs will have something to dig up and it solves your vacuuming problems. Plus, if they have fry you won't have to worry about the fry getting sucked into the filter. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda as their > main ingredient. > > > > And get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water goes > through the softening. > > > > The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills really they will > like sand better. You just run your hand through the sand and hold the > python about an inch above to suck up the debris you stir up. > > > > I order a lot of my fish online when you are ready I can give you some > vendors. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf Of kuradi8 > Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:08 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions > > > > > > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > Yes, it is OK to have ALL Yellows. > > > > If you are doing a species tank 48" x 12" of yellow labs, 15 would be a > good number. > > > > WOW! FIFTEEN?!?!? I'm really surprised that there can be that many. > > > > > Mbuna like Labidochromis caeruleus are rock fish. The biotope would be to > fill the tank to the rim with rocks. > > > > Hmmmmmmmmmmm, I gotta re-think my tiki village. Especially if there will be > over a dozen fish to house. > > > > > > Would the fish be better off with something closer in color to their > natural habitat? > > > > In most cases, it doesn't matter. Some fish will try to match the > > They will like sand better than gravel however. > > > > Flourite makes a sand that is black, and there is tahitian moon sand. > > > > OK, good. I think Yellow Labs in a dark tank look STUNNING. > > I've seen both of those names online. I was leaning toward a fine gravel > because it would be easier to clean. Sand would get sucked up by my > tank-vacuum and into my waste bucket. Fine gravel would give up the detritus > but the gravel itself would stay in the tank where it belongs. > > I assume Yellow Labs like to bulldoze and dig as much as other cichlids. The > gravel I'm thinking of (if it still exists) is fine enough to allow them to > do that. > > > > > I like to keep African Rift Lake cichlids at a pH of around 8.0 (my tap > water of 7.8 is good). I'm not sure I would buy from a vendor who keeps all > his fish in the same water regardless of requirements. > > > > My well water comes up iron-rich and a little on the acidic side. After it > enters the house, it passes through a 2-phase filtration system that sucks > out the iron and boosts the pH to neutral. If I were to keep proper Cichlid > parameters, I'd have to augment the water. > > There are commercial chemicals. Some swear by baking soda. Others use corals > and limestone. Any preferences? > > My only choices in this neck of the woods are PetsMart nearly 20 miles in > one direction and PetsMart and PetCo about 30 miles in the other. Both have > a section of cold water goldfish (etc) that seem to all share one filtration > system. And a section or two of mixed tropicals (including cichlids) on a > different wall that share a system or two. > > There are two Mom and Pop shops, one of which will (what a shame) probably > be out of business before I'm ready and the other specializes in salt water. > > Thanks for your insight! > ~Kai > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > The fish that I already have are going to be with me for the next 5-10 > years so these are all hypothetical musings for the future: > > > > I would like my "next tank" (5-10 years down the line) to be for Cichlids > -- specifically Electric Yellow Labs because I love their bright yellow > color. Is it OK to have ALL Yellows? Or do they do best when mixed and > matched with other Malawis? > > > > Keeping in mind that a "55g" has an actual capacity of ~45g, how many > Lab-sized Cichlids should I keep in there? > > > > Nearly every Cichlid tank I've seen has had a vertical wall of caves. Is > that because Cichlids prefer living in highrise condos? Or because it's more > aesthetically pleasing to the humans who decorated the tank? What if my > decorating ideas had their caves spread across the floor of the tank? (I'm > thinking tiki village.) Would the fish think that my community planning was > "wrong?" > > > > I love how LED bubble volcanoes look but I'm a little hesitant to put > something electrical into the tank. (I know I "can" and "should," but I will > never fully trust my submersible heater either.) What are your opinions of > and experiences with submersible AC/DC lights (etc) in your tanks? > > > > Looking at other peoples' tanks, I love the way bright Yellow Labs look > against a black/dark substrate. But looking at photos of Lake Malawi, its > floor is pale ash gray. Would the fish be better off with something closer > in color to their natural habitat? Or doesn't it matter? > > > > Looking at substrates, there are a lot of commercial gravels that seem to > have been DYED black. Yikes! 20+ years ago, my first tank had what I think > were little black plastic nuggets, kinda-sorta shaped like fine gravel. I've > only poked around a little online but that stuff doesn't seem to exist any > more. Or does it? > > > > At my LFSs, it seems like all the tanks share a common filter system. They > all share the same water -- so everyone is in neutral water, including those > that prefer acidic or alkaline. That being the case, how important is it to > bring Cichlids to their "proper" (hard/alkaline) water parameters? If > they've grown up in neutral conditions at breeders and retail venues, should > they stay that way? > > > > Let's see... what other dumb questions can I come up with??? :oP > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52076	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

THANK YOU! I appreciate all of your suggestions and advice! Like I said, it will be many years before the fish I have go over the rainbow and that I will be able to start fresh with new decor and new fish. I'm not in a rush for that to happen, I'm just "dreaming" of the future. I assume my hardware will still be in good enough shape to re-use... or that I will have replaced the items one at a time if they've failed along the way. Two HOB filters, a submersible heater and a dual-output air pump for bubbles. Only the decor and the inhabitants will change. When it comes time for Cichlids, I'll pick sand instead of gravel. And build them some sort of highrise condo complex. I have also seen tanks that have used stacked clay pots. I really like the look but worry about the feasibility of keeping clay pots submerged for years on end. Wouldn't they soften/collapse? Leech unwanted minerals/chemicals into the water? I've been looking at plastic pots instead but their thin walls lack "the look," ya know? I'm sure I'll figure something out. I think I will pass on snails. I've had some "mystery" snails in my Betta tanks and they're surprisingly large bio-loads. The tanks with snails get FILTHY compared to those without. The water chemistry remains a bit of a concern. I worry about fluctuations as a result of water changes. Perhaps a compromise between tap water and the "super" hard/alkaline parameters they would have in the wild? Thanks again for dreaming and planning ahead with me! ~Kai > Donna Ransome wrote: > > A couple of suggestions. First. Put the rocks in before the substrate when assembling your tank, and then don't move them. I only move rocks maybe once a year, and only then if necessary to catch a particular fish. > > With no substrate underneath, dirt cannot accumulate there. And use a turkey baster to blast water through the pile during a water change to remove debris from there. You want to over-filter African Rift Lake tanks, I like about 7X hourly turnover. You will find there is not much debris to vacuum. > > Labs are the most peaceful mbuna so you may be fine with less fish. A more aggressive mbuna would do better with the crowd to help manage aggression. > > You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake cichlid tank. So, limestone does not have a chance to dissolve quickly enough to have a real impact on pH. It is true it's best to leave it alone if your tap water is reasonable, thus the suggestion to check the water before it is softened. > > > "haecklers" wrote: > > Unless you want to remove all the rocks to vacuum, I'd stick with rocks along the back wall and fewer fish (remember, too, that rocks take up a lot of volume so there wouldn't be as much water as you would think). I saw one neat cichlid setup that used clay pots along the back wall, lined up in rows with every other row facing the opposite direction. > > I'd say to opt for limestone in the tank before trying to mess with baking soda, but it's really best to leave the pH alone, less stress on the fish from fluctuations. > > Also, keep in mind that if they're happy the labs will breed for you, so you may want to allow room for some babies in the tank. > > If you put a protective sponge over your filter intake you can put in some burrowing snails like MTS or the burrowing kind of ramshorn. Then the labs will have something to dig up and it solves your vacuuming problems. Plus, if they have fry you won't have to worry about the fry getting sucked into the filter. > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda as their main ingredient. > > > > And get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water goes through the softening. > > > > The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills really they will like sand better. You just run your hand through the sand and hold the python about an inch above to suck up the debris you stir up. > > > > I order a lot of my fish online when you are ready I can give you some vendors. > > > > _____ > > > > SNIPPED > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/messages > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52077	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

I've had some clay pots submersed for a couple years now with no problems in my tanks. I use them for caves for my pleco's and cory's. Amber On 9/15/2011 5:52 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > THANK YOU! I appreciate all of your suggestions and advice! > > Like I said, it will be many years before the fish I have go over the > rainbow and that I will be able to start fresh with new decor and new > fish. I'm not in a rush for that to happen, I'm just "dreaming" of the > future. > > I assume my hardware will still be in good enough shape to re-use... > or that I will have replaced the items one at a time if they've failed > along the way. Two HOB filters, a submersible heater and a dual-output > air pump for bubbles. Only the decor and the inhabitants will change. > > When it comes time for Cichlids, I'll pick sand instead of gravel. And > build them some sort of highrise condo complex. > > I have also seen tanks that have used stacked clay pots. I really like > the look but worry about the feasibility of keeping clay pots > submerged for years on end. Wouldn't they soften/collapse? Leech > unwanted minerals/chemicals into the water? I've been looking at > plastic pots instead but their thin walls lack "the look," ya know? > I'm sure I'll figure something out. > > I think I will pass on snails. I've had some "mystery" snails in my > Betta tanks and they're surprisingly large bio-loads. The tanks with > snails get FILTHY compared to those without. > > The water chemistry remains a bit of a concern. I worry about > fluctuations as a result of water changes. Perhaps a compromise > between tap water and the "super" hard/alkaline parameters they would > have in the wild? > > Thanks again for dreaming and planning ahead with me! > ~Kai > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > A couple of suggestions. First. Put the rocks in before the > substrate when assembling your tank, and then don't move them. I only > move rocks maybe once a year, and only then if necessary to catch a > particular fish. > > > > With no substrate underneath, dirt cannot accumulate there. And use > a turkey baster to blast water through the pile during a water change > to remove debris from there. You want to over-filter African Rift Lake > tanks, I like about 7X hourly turnover. You will find there is not > much debris to vacuum. > > > > Labs are the most peaceful mbuna so you may be fine with less fish. > A more aggressive mbuna would do better with the crowd to help manage > aggression. > > > > You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake > cichlid tank. So, limestone does not have a chance to dissolve quickly > enough to have a real impact on pH. It is true it's best to leave it > alone if your tap water is reasonable, thus the suggestion to check > the water before it is softened. > > > > > > > "haecklers" wrote: > > > > Unless you want to remove all the rocks to vacuum, I'd stick with > rocks along the back wall and fewer fish (remember, too, that rocks > take up a lot of volume so there wouldn't be as much water as you > would think). I saw one neat cichlid setup that used clay pots along > the back wall, lined up in rows with every other row facing the > opposite direction. > > > > I'd say to opt for limestone in the tank before trying to mess with > baking soda, but it's really best to leave the pH alone, less stress > on the fish from fluctuations. > > > > Also, keep in mind that if they're happy the labs will breed for > you, so you may want to allow room for some babies in the tank. > > > > If you put a protective sponge over your filter intake you can put > in some burrowing snails like MTS or the burrowing kind of ramshorn. > Then the labs will have something to dig up and it solves your > vacuuming problems. Plus, if they have fry you won't have to worry > about the fry getting sucked into the filter. > > > > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > > > Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda > as their main ingredient. > > > > > > And…get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water > goes through the softening. > > > > > > The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills > …really… they will like sand better. You just run your hand through > the sand and hold the python about an inch above to suck up the debris > you stir up. > > > > > > I order a lot of my fish online…when you are ready I can give you > some vendors. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > SNIPPED > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/messages > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52078	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Amber, How big are the clay pots and where do you get them? I have a 125 gal cichlid tank and I'd like to give them more caves Gail -----Original Message----- I've had some clay pots submersed for a couple years now with no problems in my tanks. I use them for caves for my pleco's and cory's. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52079	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/15/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

I use clay pots in my quarantine and fry tanks. -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2011 1:00 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions I've had some clay pots submersed for a couple years now with no problems in my tanks. I use them for caves for my pleco's and cory's. Amber On 9/15/2011 5:52 AM, kuradi8 wrote: > > THANK YOU! I appreciate all of your suggestions and advice! > > Like I said, it will be many years before the fish I have go over the > rainbow and that I will be able to start fresh with new decor and new > fish. I'm not in a rush for that to happen, I'm just "dreaming" of the > future. > > I assume my hardware will still be in good enough shape to re-use... > or that I will have replaced the items one at a time if they've failed > along the way. Two HOB filters, a submersible heater and a dual-output > air pump for bubbles. Only the decor and the inhabitants will change. > > When it comes time for Cichlids, I'll pick sand instead of gravel. And > build them some sort of highrise condo complex. > > I have also seen tanks that have used stacked clay pots. I really like > the look but worry about the feasibility of keeping clay pots > submerged for years on end. Wouldn't they soften/collapse? Leech > unwanted minerals/chemicals into the water? I've been looking at > plastic pots instead but their thin walls lack "the look," ya know? > I'm sure I'll figure something out. > > I think I will pass on snails. I've had some "mystery" snails in my > Betta tanks and they're surprisingly large bio-loads. The tanks with > snails get FILTHY compared to those without. > > The water chemistry remains a bit of a concern. I worry about > fluctuations as a result of water changes. Perhaps a compromise > between tap water and the "super" hard/alkaline parameters they would > have in the wild? > > Thanks again for dreaming and planning ahead with me! > ~Kai > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > A couple of suggestions. First. Put the rocks in before the > substrate when assembling your tank, and then don't move them. I only > move rocks maybe once a year, and only then if necessary to catch a > particular fish. > > > > With no substrate underneath, dirt cannot accumulate there. And use > a turkey baster to blast water through the pile during a water change > to remove debris from there. You want to over-filter African Rift Lake > tanks, I like about 7X hourly turnover. You will find there is not > much debris to vacuum. > > > > Labs are the most peaceful mbuna so you may be fine with less fish. > A more aggressive mbuna would do better with the crowd to help manage > aggression. > > > > You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake > cichlid tank. So, limestone does not have a chance to dissolve quickly > enough to have a real impact on pH. It is true it's best to leave it > alone if your tap water is reasonable, thus the suggestion to check > the water before it is softened. > > > > > > > "haecklers" wrote: > > > > Unless you want to remove all the rocks to vacuum, I'd stick with > rocks along the back wall and fewer fish (remember, too, that rocks > take up a lot of volume so there wouldn't be as much water as you > would think). I saw one neat cichlid setup that used clay pots along > the back wall, lined up in rows with every other row facing the > opposite direction. > > > > I'd say to opt for limestone in the tank before trying to mess with > baking soda, but it's really best to leave the pH alone, less stress > on the fish from fluctuations. > > > > Also, keep in mind that if they're happy the labs will breed for > you, so you may want to allow room for some babies in the tank. > > > > If you put a protective sponge over your filter intake you can put > in some burrowing snails like MTS or the burrowing kind of ramshorn. > Then the labs will have something to dig up and it solves your > vacuuming problems. Plus, if they have fry you won't have to worry > about the fry getting sucked into the filter. > > > > > > Donna Ransome wrote: > > > > > > Baking soda, save your $$, the commercial mixes have baking soda > as their main ingredient. > > > > > > And get your cichlid water from the outside tap before the water > goes through the softening. > > > > > > The fish actually like to sift the sand through their gills > really they will like sand better. You just run your hand through > the sand and hold the python about an inch above to suck up the debris > you stir up. > > > > > > I order a lot of my fish online when you are ready I can give you > some vendors. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > SNIPPED > > > http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/messages > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52080	From: Rick Duffy	Date: 9/16/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52081	From: haecklers	Date: 9/16/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52082	From: haecklers	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Angelfish update!

Well, I got to meet (on the phone) Jody Ghianni, the guy who gave Koi Angelfish that name! He was happy to hear I'm seeing them in all the local pet stores. LOL! My Platinum/Koi angelfish pair bred again and I noticed them fighting a lot this time (later the same day they spawned). We removed all the fish from a 10-gallon tank and put the male in there temporarily while I set up a new 40-gallon tank I just got for him. He was very unhappy with his ride in the bag and made holes all over it so it looked like a sprinkler by the time I got it to the 10-gallon tank. What do you know, for the first time since their first spawn the eggs survived the night! Now I know who was eating them! To be fair, I was still keeping them in the same 20-gallon tank they'd been in since they were little fry, and they were probably feeling very crowded. I read that in too small a tank angelfish are prone to egg-eating - to "start over when the conditions are better" - i.e. more space for the fry, I guess. So once the babies are big enough I'll probably move the mom into the 40-g with the dad and let the fry live in the 20 g until I sell off all my Jack Dempseys so they can have the 55 g. (anyone want some Jack Dempsey? They're BGJD X BGJD!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52083	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Zebra babies

You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.�� Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52084	From: harry perry	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies

Liquid fry food works well.  I kept 75 Gourami fry going with this. Fry need to be feed several times a day. Harry ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool!  What are you feeding them?  The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time.  Enough for me.  They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52085	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies/eggyoke tip for fry

Just a tip for feeding hard boiled egg yolk to fry...just gently, barely rub your finger on the yoke then rub that finger on your thumb real hard, repeat underwater and you have a yelloww cloud of fry food. (Ask me how many tanks I dirtied before I figured that out, lol) Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: duffy928542002@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 17:25:52 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52086	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies/eggyoke tip for fry

Thanks Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 13:52:19 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies/eggyoke tip for fry Just a tip for feeding hard boiled egg yolk to fry...just gently, barely rub your finger on the yoke then rub that finger on your thumb real hard, repeat underwater and you have a yelloww cloud of fry food. (Ask me how many tanks I dirtied before I figured that out, lol) Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: duffy928542002@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, Sep 17, 2011 17:25:52 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52087	From: bill 1433	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Zebra babies

try pushing it through a small tea strainer first.  Flip the strainer over and scrape what you need from the opposite side.   Bill --- On Sat, 9/17/11, duffy928542002@... <duffy928542002@...> wrote: From: duffy928542002@... <duffy928542002@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 17, 2011, 6:39 AM You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool!  What are you feeding them?  The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time.  Enough for me.  They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.  Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52088	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies

Are those microscopic thingies too small for baby danios? Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: harry perry To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Duffy........Zebra babies Liquid fry food works well. I kept 75 Gourami fry going with this. Fry need to be feed several times a day. Harry ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good. Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52089	From: harry perry	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies

If the Danio fry are the same size as Gourami fry or smaller it will work fine. Harry ________________________________ From: Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Duffy........Zebra babies   Are those microscopic thingies too small for baby danios? Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: harry perry To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Duffy........Zebra babies Liquid fry food works well. I kept 75 Gourami fry going with this. Fry need to be feed several times a day. Harry ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good. Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52090	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 9/17/2011
Subject: Re: Duffy........Zebra babies

No its working so far Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 17 Sep 2011 14:35:47 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Duffy........Zebra babies Are those microscopic thingies too small for baby danios? Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: harry perry To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Duffy........Zebra babies Liquid fry food works well. I kept 75 Gourami fry going with this. Fry need to be feed several times a day. Harry ________________________________ From: "duffy928542002@..." <duffy928542002@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 17, 2011 6:39 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Zebra babies You asked what I was feeding my 70 zebra tiny babies - I tried the cooked egg yellow but it wouldn't disburse enough - just sank in small clumps to the bottom - but I found a commercial food packet at Petsmart for newly hatched babies and it seems fine spreads like a small cloud across the water surface - I turned my filter back on because the babies are all at the top and its a 29 gallon filled so the water pull at the bottom isn't sucking in the fish Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 18:13:02 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Questions That's cool! What are you feeding them? The only ones I raised were ones I found when I squeezed out the filter sponge, so only a handful at a time. Enough for me. They grow really fast! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Duffy <duffy928542002@...> wrote: > > > > > > Little story. I've had freshwater tropical fish for a few decades, (75 gallon, 29 and 15) but up until a few months ago I had never tried to breed egglayers. I tried with a I think it's called a red fin tetra, but no luck. So I went to basics and put marbles in my 29 gallon and six zebras, changed 5% water two nights in a row, added a little PH Down each night - just a little - and removed the adults. Well now I have about 100 little tiny teensy weensy babies, about 5 days old now. So far so good.� Rick > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52091	From: jasadell	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Cichlid Compatibility

Hi all. First post to this group. One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: * You can only put Oscars with Oscars * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) I was also told this: * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52092	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Hello:    Let's see, where do we begin?  At the beginning I guess.  Okay, the store employees were not really steering you in the wrong direction.  When dealing with semi-aggressive, or aggressive fish, there can be problems arising all over the place.  That doesn't mean it can't be done successfully (indeed it has), it's just that "normally" your mix would be frowned upon in most circles.     Having all the experience you have with fish I'm sure these statements are nothing surprising to you.  Now part of the reason that Oscars shouldn't be kept with Africans is because they lead two completely different lives and thrive in very different water conditions.  The Oscars may like their water a tinge on the acidic side whereas the Rift Lake cichlids definitely prefer their water a little on the alkaline side.  Luckily, many of today's fish breeders raise their fry in water conditions that are more likely to be found in most stores or homes so it makes it a bit easier to mix them.  Oh, before I forget, Oscars are new world fish, not African.    Next, the idea of mixing Mastacembelid eels (actually fish, not true eels) with so many aggressive fish could very well lead to an untimely death for them.  They are certainly not as aggressive as the fish nor are they as adept at fighting.  Still, where there's a will, there's a way.  Many years ago a friend of mine had a very successful mixed tank that included several Mastacembelid eels with some cichlids and was fairly successful.  The way he got away with it was to build a rock wall on one side that reached near the surface.  The "eels" quickly learned to use the rock labyrinth to move to the surface to obtain floating food.  Staying within the fairly tight fit of the rocks kept them protected from the "bully" cichlids.  Other rocks were offered to the cichlids as well.  I used to like going over there and sitting quietly in a chair while watching him feed the fish.  The Mastacembelids really learned who he was and would pop their heads out of crevices to watch what he was doing.  I've never, ever seen Mastacembelids act like that in any other tanks, including my own.  It was a really unique thing to observe.    As far as adding Pictus cats to your tanks, I don't see a problem with it except that several species of Pictus are rather "shiny" and many cichlids might go after them.  If the Pictus are big enough, well, whatever.  Plecos can sometimes work in semi-aggressive fish tanks.    Adding Peacocks to the tank might not be so good because, even though found in the same rift lakes they are generally not as aggressive as Mbunas and thus can be picked on.  The way to combat this is to have enough fish in the tank to where they can't really become territorial.  Still I don't think that to be the best solution.    Electric Blues (Sciaenochromis ahli) are beautiful open-water fish but can be a bit aggressive.  They also need lots of open space to prowl for food.  They sure are beautiful though.  In a tank like this I'm not sure they would thrive.    The Electric Yellow Cichlid (Labidochromis caeruleus) is a rock dwelling Rift Lake cichlid that is medium in temper.  I've found that many of them (but not all) keep to themselves as long as there are like three or four of them together.    Overall I'd say the employees were right to say that certain species should not be mixed and in most cases would lead to disaster.  They probably didn't know your experience level.  I, on the other hand, have either had or seen many strange fish combinations in my 40 + years as a fish keeper so I say...what the heck, give it a whirl (but if it doesn't work, don't say I didn't tell you so).  My niece has Africans, Oscars, and Jack Dempseys all living together peacefully, for over two years.  Go figure.    I'm sure my answer won't be the most popular but it's based on what I've both seen and experienced.  I am glad, though, to hear you support your local stores.  I do the same myself.    Have a Wonderfully Fishy Day!!!    Spawn    P.S.  Pictus cats are nice additions to community tanks with larger fish (something big enough that they can't fit in their mouth).  C-Ya!!! ________________________________ From: jasadell <jason_dell@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:12 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Cichlid Compatibility   Hi all. First post to this group. One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: * You can only put Oscars with Oscars * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) I was also told this: * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? Thanks, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52093	From: Ray	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Hi Jason and welcome to the Group, Before going any further, I'd just like to clear up a misconception you have about Oscars. Oscars are NOT African Cichlids, but instead, are South American Cichlids. Then too, the term "African Cichlids" really had a dual meaning, as referring both to West African Cichlids requiring soft to moderately hard water with a pH not all too far one way or the other from neutral, although usually somewhat acid -- AND to Rift Lake Cichlids which, depending on which lake, require hard and very alkaline water. I'll go over the list of recommendations you've already included here, as being received from your other sources, but as some of m,y comments will conflict with what you've been told, you have no way of knowing what's right except to believe me if you so choose. Otherwise this is going to get confusing on your part. For starters though, I am assuming that the 3 fish you started out with are all juveniles and are not full grown -- correct me if I'm wrong. Juvenile Cichlids behave quite differently towards their tankmates from the behavior shown by mature Cichlids when they reach adulthood and establish territories. This is most probably why your fish are getting along at this stage of the game. Compatability also needs to consider the water conditions all of the different Cichlids require, aside from their behavior. Oscars, being South American Cichlids really do best in softer and slightly acid to slightly alkaline water, whereas your African Rift Lake Cichlids require very hard and very alkaline water. Too, New World Cichlids (such as Oscars) do not recognize the signals given by Old World Haplochromines (such as your Electric Yellow and your Acei), which is very important if you want to avoid an all-out confrontation between them. The first comment is completely wrong -- you can put Oscars with other like-sized fish, including other South American Cichlids. By "African Cichlids," I'm assuming you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Just because of their specific requirements, Rift Lake Cichlids need to be kept only with other ift Lake Cichlids -- and then -- it's best if you keep Lake Malawi Cichlids separate from Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, but not imperatively so. If you keep the water parameters (pH and Hardness) between those of the two lakes it can be done quite successfully. Do not keep these fish with Lake Victoria Cichlids though, as this lake is not a Rift Lake and does not have extremely hard and very high pH parameters. Yes, that's correct -- you CAN'T put Oscars with African (Rift Lake) Cichlids -- in part, if only because of their very different water requirements. Also, Oscars easily reach 12" or MORE and could eventually see the much smaller Rift Lake Cichlids as food. I already cover the part that Oscars would not understand any signals given by Rift Lake Cichlids, which is most important if you want to promote compatability when they mature. The Electric Yellow Cichlid/Lab (Labidochromis coeruleus) is one of the very least aggressive Malawi Cichlids, so would NOT rule the tank if most any other Malawi Cichlid is in the same tank. For this reason, it may prove too timid for the more aggressive Acei (Psuedotropheus acei, I presume?). You will need to keep an eye on them as they mature. While on this subject, I'd like to point out the quite often Malawi Cichlids are kept as a group of a single species to prevent the killings of one fish by the other fish. Most often, one or two males are kept in proportion to 5 or 6 females of one species. Multiple species may be kept together, provided there's a lot of rockwork -- and that adequate numbers of both species are kept, to prevent cross-breeding -- but you'd need a large tank to do so. Provided the Peacock Eel is larger enough so that it doesn't become food, it may be kept with South and perhaps even Central American Cichlids, and definitely with West African Cichlids, but it cannot be kept with Rift Lake Cichlids as it has totally different water requirements. Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with Cichlids, if by "Cichlids" you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Again, Pictus Catfish would not do very well in hard alkaline water. These Catfish may be kept with New World and West African Old World Cichlids, if the size is compatible. Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in a community tank -- IF there are Neons, Cardinals and other small fishes that he can make lunch of when he prowls around the tank at night. You CAN put Pictus Catfish in a community tank if the other inhabitants are big enough. No -- that's correct -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with semi-aggressive or aggressive fish, as it will get beaten up and/or killed. After all, what else would you expect from aggressive fish? As for the Electric Blue Cichlid (Sciaenochromis fryeri), another Lake Malawi Cichlid, YES you CAN put this fish in with other Lake Malawi Cichlids -- even with some others of its own kind. While it's not a rock-dweller, it's still advisable to provide the females with some protective cover, such as rocks, for them to retreat to with the male(s) get rough. As it's a Rift Lake Cichlid, requiring quite different water parameters, it should not be kept with South American Cichlids. It can be kept with Electric Yellow Labs though. Getting back to your Electric Yellow Labs -- you may have much more of a problem with these two fish as they mature, especially if any one (or both) of them are males. Without a sufficient number of them to have the aggression spread out between a number of them, your one Yellow Lab is going to take the brunt of all the aggression of the dominant fish, most probably eventually resulting in its death. I'd advise getting at least 5 more , with most of them being females if you can tell if you now have at least one male. Best of luck with them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > I was also told this: > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > Thanks, > JD > come to the Group,

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52094	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I like the guy at store #1. And no, Oscars are not African cichlids, LOL. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:13 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Cichlid Compatibility Hi all. First post to this group. One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: * You can only put Oscars with Oscars * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) I was also told this: * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? Thanks, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52095	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/20/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Note electric blue is a common name that could be used for several fish. If he was talking about johannii, he would not be too far off. Fryeri are compatible with a variety of tankmates, however. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 6:23 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility Hi Jason and welcome to the Group, Before going any further, I'd just like to clear up a misconception you have about Oscars. Oscars are NOT African Cichlids, but instead, are South American Cichlids. Then too, the term "African Cichlids" really had a dual meaning, as referring both to West African Cichlids requiring soft to moderately hard water with a pH not all too far one way or the other from neutral, although usually somewhat acid -- AND to Rift Lake Cichlids which, depending on which lake, require hard and very alkaline water. I'll go over the list of recommendations you've already included here, as being received from your other sources, but as some of m,y comments will conflict with what you've been told, you have no way of knowing what's right except to believe me if you so choose. Otherwise this is going to get confusing on your part. For starters though, I am assuming that the 3 fish you started out with are all juveniles and are not full grown -- correct me if I'm wrong. Juvenile Cichlids behave quite differently towards their tankmates from the behavior shown by mature Cichlids when they reach adulthood and establish territories. This is most probably why your fish are getting along at this stage of the game. Compatability also needs to consider the water conditions all of the different Cichlids require, aside from their behavior. Oscars, being South American Cichlids really do best in softer and slightly acid to slightly alkaline water, whereas your African Rift Lake Cichlids require very hard and very alkaline water. Too, New World Cichlids (such as Oscars) do not recognize the signals given by Old World Haplochromines (such as your Electric Yellow and your Acei), which is very important if you want to avoid an all-out confrontation between them. The first comment is completely wrong -- you can put Oscars with other like-sized fish, including other South American Cichlids. By "African Cichlids," I'm assuming you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Just because of their specific requirements, Rift Lake Cichlids need to be kept only with other ift Lake Cichlids -- and then -- it's best if you keep Lake Malawi Cichlids separate from Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, but not imperatively so. If you keep the water parameters (pH and Hardness) between those of the two lakes it can be done quite successfully. Do not keep these fish with Lake Victoria Cichlids though, as this lake is not a Rift Lake and does not have extremely hard and very high pH parameters. Yes, that's correct -- you CAN'T put Oscars with African (Rift Lake) Cichlids -- in part, if only because of their very different water requirements. Also, Oscars easily reach 12" or MORE and could eventually see the much smaller Rift Lake Cichlids as food. I already cover the part that Oscars would not understand any signals given by Rift Lake Cichlids, which is most important if you want to promote compatability when they mature. The Electric Yellow Cichlid/Lab (Labidochromis coeruleus) is one of the very least aggressive Malawi Cichlids, so would NOT rule the tank if most any other Malawi Cichlid is in the same tank. For this reason, it may prove too timid for the more aggressive Acei (Psuedotropheus acei, I presume?). You will need to keep an eye on them as they mature. While on this subject, I'd like to point out the quite often Malawi Cichlids are kept as a group of a single species to prevent the killings of one fish by the other fish. Most often, one or two males are kept in proportion to 5 or 6 females of one species. Multiple species may be kept together, provided there's a lot of rockwork -- and that adequate numbers of both species are kept, to prevent cross-breeding -- but you'd need a large tank to do so. Provided the Peacock Eel is larger enough so that it doesn't become food, it may be kept with South and perhaps even Central American Cichlids, and definitely with West African Cichlids, but it cannot be kept with Rift Lake Cichlids as it has totally different water requirements. Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with Cichlids, if by "Cichlids" you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Again, Pictus Catfish would not do very well in hard alkaline water. These Catfish may be kept with New World and West African Old World Cichlids, if the size is compatible. Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in a community tank -- IF there are Neons, Cardinals and other small fishes that he can make lunch of when he prowls around the tank at night. You CAN put Pictus Catfish in a community tank if the other inhabitants are big enough. No -- that's correct -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with semi-aggressive or aggressive fish, as it will get beaten up and/or killed. After all, what else would you expect from aggressive fish? As for the Electric Blue Cichlid (Sciaenochromis fryeri), another Lake Malawi Cichlid, YES you CAN put this fish in with other Lake Malawi Cichlids -- even with some others of its own kind. While it's not a rock-dweller, it's still advisable to provide the females with some protective cover, such as rocks, for them to retreat to with the male(s) get rough. As it's a Rift Lake Cichlid, requiring quite different water parameters, it should not be kept with South American Cichlids. It can be kept with Electric Yellow Labs though. Getting back to your Electric Yellow Labs -- you may have much more of a problem with these two fish as they mature, especially if any one (or both) of them are males. Without a sufficient number of them to have the aggression spread out between a number of them, your one Yellow Lab is going to take the brunt of all the aggression of the dominant fish, most probably eventually resulting in its death. I'd advise getting at least 5 more , with most of them being females if you can tell if you now have at least one male. Best of luck with them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > I was also told this: > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > Thanks, > JD > come to the Group, [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52096	From: Noura	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Changing filters question

Hi group! II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's heavily planted. Thanks, Noura

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52097	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Hi Noura, In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank for about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if so you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed things up even more. Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. John On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi group! > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > heavily planted. > > Thanks, > Noura > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52098	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole Iife. I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of the filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get right now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" they are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any feedback. Thanks. Tara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52099	From: jasadell	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Wow great info! Thanks. It looks like I need to do a considerable amount of research before doing any further purchases. As well it looks like I may be selling or giving a few back to the store as they or others become mature and more aggressive. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >      Hello: >    Let's see, where do we begin?  At the beginning I guess.  Okay, the store employees were not really steering you in the wrong direction.  When dealing with semi-aggressive, or aggressive fish, there can be problems arising all over the place.  That doesn't mean it can't be done successfully (indeed it has), it's just that "normally" your mix would be frowned upon in most circles. > >     Having all the experience you have with fish I'm sure these statements are nothing surprising to you.  Now part of the reason that Oscars shouldn't be kept with Africans is because they lead two completely different lives and thrive in very different water conditions.  The Oscars may like their water a tinge on the acidic side whereas the Rift Lake cichlids definitely prefer their water a little on the alkaline side.  Luckily, many of today's fish breeders raise their fry in water conditions that are more likely to be found in most stores or homes so it makes it a bit easier to mix them.  Oh, before I forget, Oscars are new world fish, not African. >    Next, the idea of mixing Mastacembelid eels (actually fish, not true eels) with so many aggressive fish could very well lead to an untimely death for them.  They are certainly not as aggressive as the fish nor are they as adept at fighting.  Still, where there's a will, there's a way.  Many years ago a friend of mine had a very successful mixed tank that included several Mastacembelid eels with some cichlids and was fairly successful.  The way he got away with it was to build a rock wall on one side that reached near the surface.  The "eels" quickly learned to use the rock labyrinth to move to the surface to obtain floating food.  Staying within the fairly tight fit of the rocks kept them protected from the "bully" cichlids.  Other rocks were offered to the cichlids as well.  I used to like going over there and sitting quietly in a chair while watching him feed the fish.  The Mastacembelids really learned who he was and would pop their > heads out of crevices to watch what he was doing.  I've never, ever seen Mastacembelids act like that in any other tanks, including my own.  It was a really unique thing to observe. >    As far as adding Pictus cats to your tanks, I don't see a problem with it except that several species of Pictus are rather "shiny" and many cichlids might go after them.  If the Pictus are big enough, well, whatever.  Plecos can sometimes work in semi-aggressive fish tanks. > >    Adding Peacocks to the tank might not be so good because, even though found in the same rift lakes they are generally not as aggressive as Mbunas and thus can be picked on.  The way to combat this is to have enough fish in the tank to where they can't really become territorial.  Still I don't think that to be the best solution. >    Electric Blues (Sciaenochromis ahli) are beautiful open-water fish but can be a bit aggressive.  They also need lots of open space to prowl for food.  They sure are beautiful though.  In a tank like this I'm not sure they would thrive. > >    The Electric Yellow Cichlid (Labidochromis caeruleus) is a rock dwelling Rift Lake cichlid that is medium in temper.  I've found that many of them (but not all) keep to themselves as long as there are like three or four of them together. >    Overall I'd say the employees were right to say that certain species should not be mixed and in most cases would lead to disaster.  They probably didn't know your experience level.  I, on the other hand, have either had or seen many strange fish combinations in my 40 + years as a fish keeper so I say...what the heck, give it a whirl (but if it doesn't work, don't say I didn't tell you so).  My niece has Africans, Oscars, and Jack Dempseys all living together peacefully, for over two years.  Go figure. >    I'm sure my answer won't be the most popular but it's based on what I've both seen and experienced.  I am glad, though, to hear you support your local stores.  I do the same myself. > >    Have a Wonderfully Fishy Day!!! >    Spawn >    P.S.  Pictus cats are nice additions to community tanks with larger fish (something big enough that they can't fit in their mouth).  C-Ya!!! > > > ________________________________ > From: jasadell > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2011 4:12 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cichlid Compatibility > > >   > Hi all. First post to this group. > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > I was also told this: > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > Thanks, > JD > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52100	From: jasadell	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Thanks Ray. More excellent even more thorough feedback. The good news is that you and John do not contradict each other. Jd --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Jason and welcome to the Group, > > Before going any further, I'd just like to clear up a misconception you have about Oscars. Oscars are NOT African Cichlids, but instead, are South American Cichlids. Then too, the term "African Cichlids" really had a dual meaning, as referring both to West African Cichlids requiring soft to moderately hard water with a pH not all too far one way or the other from neutral, although usually somewhat acid -- AND to Rift Lake Cichlids which, depending on which lake, require hard and very alkaline water. > > I'll go over the list of recommendations you've already included here, as being received from your other sources, but as some of m,y comments will conflict with what you've been told, you have no way of knowing what's right except to believe me if you so choose. Otherwise this is going to get confusing on your part. For starters though, I am assuming that the 3 fish you started out with are all juveniles and are not full grown -- correct me if I'm wrong. Juvenile Cichlids behave quite differently towards their tankmates from the behavior shown by mature Cichlids when they reach adulthood and establish territories. This is most probably why your fish are getting along at this stage of the game. > > Compatability also needs to consider the water conditions all of the different Cichlids require, aside from their behavior. Oscars, being South American Cichlids really do best in softer and slightly acid to slightly alkaline water, whereas your African Rift Lake Cichlids require very hard and very alkaline water. Too, New World Cichlids (such as Oscars) do not recognize the signals given by Old World Haplochromines (such as your Electric Yellow and your Acei), which is very important if you want to avoid an all-out confrontation between them. > > The first comment is completely wrong -- you can put Oscars with other like-sized fish, including other South American Cichlids. > > By "African Cichlids," I'm assuming you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Just because of their specific requirements, Rift Lake Cichlids need to be kept only with other ift Lake Cichlids -- and then -- it's best if you keep Lake Malawi Cichlids separate from Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, but not imperatively so. If you keep the water parameters (pH and Hardness) between those of the two lakes it can be done quite successfully. Do not keep these fish with Lake Victoria Cichlids though, as this lake is not a Rift Lake and does not have extremely hard and very high pH parameters. > > Yes, that's correct -- you CAN'T put Oscars with African (Rift Lake) Cichlids -- in part, if only because of their very different water requirements. Also, Oscars easily reach 12" or MORE and could eventually see the much smaller Rift Lake Cichlids as food. I already cover the part that Oscars would not understand any signals given by Rift Lake Cichlids, which is most important if you want to promote compatability when they mature. > > The Electric Yellow Cichlid/Lab (Labidochromis coeruleus) is one of the very least aggressive Malawi Cichlids, so would NOT rule the tank if most any other Malawi Cichlid is in the same tank. For this reason, it may prove too timid for the more aggressive Acei (Psuedotropheus acei, I presume?). You will need to keep an eye on them as they mature. > > While on this subject, I'd like to point out the quite often Malawi Cichlids are kept as a group of a single species to prevent the killings of one fish by the other fish. Most often, one or two males are kept in proportion to 5 or 6 females of one species. Multiple species may be kept together, provided there's a lot of rockwork -- and that adequate numbers of both species are kept, to prevent cross-breeding -- but you'd need a large tank to do so. > > Provided the Peacock Eel is larger enough so that it doesn't become food, it may be kept with South and perhaps even Central American Cichlids, and definitely with West African Cichlids, but it cannot be kept with Rift Lake Cichlids as it has totally different water requirements. > > Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with Cichlids, if by "Cichlids" you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Again, Pictus Catfish would not do very well in hard alkaline water. These Catfish may be kept with New World and West African Old World Cichlids, if the size is compatible. > > Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in a community tank -- IF there are Neons, Cardinals and other small fishes that he can make lunch of when he prowls around the tank at night. You CAN put Pictus Catfish in a community tank if the other inhabitants are big enough. > > No -- that's correct -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with semi-aggressive or aggressive fish, as it will get beaten up and/or killed. After all, what else would you expect from aggressive fish? > > As for the Electric Blue Cichlid (Sciaenochromis fryeri), another Lake Malawi Cichlid, YES you CAN put this fish in with other Lake Malawi Cichlids -- even with some others of its own kind. While it's not a rock-dweller, it's still advisable to provide the females with some protective cover, such as rocks, for them to retreat to with the male(s) get rough. As it's a Rift Lake Cichlid, requiring quite different water parameters, it should not be kept with South American Cichlids. It can be kept with Electric Yellow Labs though. > > Getting back to your Electric Yellow Labs -- you may have much more of a problem with these two fish as they mature, especially if any one (or both) of them are males. Without a sufficient number of them to have the aggression spread out between a number of them, your one Yellow Lab is going to take the brunt of all the aggression of the dominant fish, most probably eventually resulting in its death. I'd advise getting at least 5 more , with most of them being females if you can tell if you now have at least one male. > > Best of luck with them. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@> wrote: > > > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > > > I was also told this: > > > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > come to the Group, >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52101	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. I just don't change everything at once. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question Hi Noura, In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank for about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if so you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed things up even more. Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. John On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi group! > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > heavily planted. > > Thanks, > Noura > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52102	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I would like to add a +1 to pretty much everything Ray said in his post. The only things I'd like to add is that in a 55 gallon tank you are going to be quite challenged to keep that oscar alive and healthy for very long, they grow very fast and are sensitive to high nitrates. I have been keeping oscars for 20yrs, one of my favorite cichlids. They all have averaged 14 - 16 inches long and are waste machines. They need space and 55 gallons isn't going to sustain one for very long unless its the only fish in the tank... and only 1 at that, with frequent water changes. Typically I suggest at least 75 gallons for minimum tank size for an adult oscar so they have enough space to actually swim around when full grown, along with massive filtration. They are messy eaters, too. In your mix I would remove the oscar and the pictus cat and stick to the African cichlids, since your tank is more well suited for Africans due to size. One danger with the pictus that wasn't mentioned is that when mixed with aggressive fish, the other fish tend to target their eyes as their most vulnerable spot. I would really watch this closely. As Ray mentioned, if these are all young/juvenile fish it may appear to be peaceful and working right now, but give it a few months when these fish begin to mature and that could quickly turn into a war zone. Aggression levels can change almost overnight and tends to happen most often at night when lights are out and you're not watching. Don't be too surprised if you wake up some morning and find dead fish if they are allowed to stay together as they are now. One last note... mixing oscars with African cichlids, especially as aggressive as the acei can be... African cichlids do have the potential to kill an oscar, even if there is a huge size difference. I have seen it too many times over the yrs. So, its not just a difference in water parameter needs that dictates whether they are compatible or not. I would expect an adult acei to chew on an oscar as well as a pictus cat. Oscars are often termed as "gentle giants" which suits most of them when talking about personality. There are other Central and South American cichlids that don't mix well with oscars, especially in a smaller tank such as 55 gallons. Fish such as convicts, red devils, jaguar cichlids, etc. are too aggressive to keep with oscars. I will never forget the first time I saw an 8 inch oscar mixed with a 3 inch convict... the convict killed the oscar within 48 hrs. It was a horrible thing to see, and unfortunately, I've seen too many people make the same kinds of mistakes over the yrs and the oscars were always torn apart. Oscars do well with large and more peaceful fish such as severums, Argentea, giant gouramis, raphael catfish, clown knife, etc. which requires a really large tank due to the waste and space issues (over 100 gallons for most). Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > I was also told this: > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > Thanks, > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52103	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Tara, Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their terrible mistakes with. In reality Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how big is your tank? This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for setting up a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let us know if you have any questions. John*<o)))< * On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > ** > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole Iife. > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of the > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get right > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" they > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > feedback. Thanks. > Tara > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52104	From: Noura	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Thaks for the informative replies. The media cannot be transferred into the new filter, there's no room inside it, it's pretty small. (300 Litres/hour). Anyway, I'll keep it for another week before removing the old one, that will be about 16 days. I do have the API master test kit to keep an eye on things. I suppose I should be testing for Nitrite and ammonia, right? Noura --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. > > I just don't change everything at once. > > Dora > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question > > > > Hi Noura, > > In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as > the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established > tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank for > about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. > > Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if so > you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed > things up even more. > > Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. > > John > > On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi group! > > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, > > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > > heavily planted. > > > > Thanks, > > Noura > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52105	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/21/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

I like to wait two weeks. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Noura Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 5:02 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question Hi group! II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's heavily planted. Thanks, Noura [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52106	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Yes, that's right-test for nitrite & ammo, they are the critical ones to watch just now but generally you should be fine. Keep an eye on your NO3 [nitrate] as well through & after the transition period. John*<o)))< * On 22 September 2011 00:20, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > ** > > > > Thaks for the informative replies. > The media cannot be transferred into the new filter, there's no room inside > it, it's pretty small. (300 Litres/hour). > Anyway, I'll keep it for another week before removing the old one, that > will be about 16 days. > I do have the API master test kit to keep an eye on things. I suppose I > should be testing for Nitrite and ammonia, right? > > Noura > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good > number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 > gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those > plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. > > > > I just don't change everything at once. > > > > Dora > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question > > > > > > > > Hi Noura, > > > > In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as > > the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established > > tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank > for > > about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. > > > > Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if > so > > you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed > > things up even more. > > > > Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. > > > > John > > > > On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hi group! > > > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > > > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that > tank, > > > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > > > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > > > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > > > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > > > heavily planted. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Noura > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52107	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew  to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care of. Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if they wanted a treat. BTW< they love frozen peas. I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. Good luck, Nancy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52108	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail in there, too. thank you for the website. It looks great:) ~~Tara On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > Hi Tara, > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > terrible mistakes with. In reality > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how big is > your tank? > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for setting up > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let us > know > if you have any questions. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > Iife. > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of > the > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get right > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > they > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > feedback. Thanks. > > Tara > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52109	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Thank you Nancy. Mine are pretty small & seem very shy right now:) Tara On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 11:14 AM, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...>wrote: > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they > are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 > males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care > of. > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if > they wanted a treat. > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > Good luck, > Nancy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52110	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

How crucial is water hardness and pH? I have the two Tiger Oscars (South American), two Yellow Labs and one Acei (West African Rift Lake) together for a few weeks now. I just use straight well water with the softener turned off mixed hot and cold to be as close to 78 degrees (so technically the hot water would still be soft, but the cold water would be hard). I don't see any Ill effects so far. They are all quite active. The pet stores where I purchased them all from I'm pretty sure use the same water for all tropical freshwater fish (I could be wrong, but it sure looks like it). If they would all be tolerant to relatively neutral pH and hardness, It seems like I could leave them together until or unless they start becoming aggressive toward each other? They are still quite small though. Not sure how they will behave when they mature. Again, I'm a noob when it comes to Cichlids. BTW, it doesn't upset me to hear that I should get more Yellow Labs. Those are gorgeous fish. Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Jason and welcome to the Group, > > Before going any further, I'd just like to clear up a misconception you have about Oscars. Oscars are NOT African Cichlids, but instead, are South American Cichlids. Then too, the term "African Cichlids" really had a dual meaning, as referring both to West African Cichlids requiring soft to moderately hard water with a pH not all too far one way or the other from neutral, although usually somewhat acid -- AND to Rift Lake Cichlids which, depending on which lake, require hard and very alkaline water. > > I'll go over the list of recommendations you've already included here, as being received from your other sources, but as some of m,y comments will conflict with what you've been told, you have no way of knowing what's right except to believe me if you so choose. Otherwise this is going to get confusing on your part. For starters though, I am assuming that the 3 fish you started out with are all juveniles and are not full grown -- correct me if I'm wrong. Juvenile Cichlids behave quite differently towards their tankmates from the behavior shown by mature Cichlids when they reach adulthood and establish territories. This is most probably why your fish are getting along at this stage of the game. > > Compatability also needs to consider the water conditions all of the different Cichlids require, aside from their behavior. Oscars, being South American Cichlids really do best in softer and slightly acid to slightly alkaline water, whereas your African Rift Lake Cichlids require very hard and very alkaline water. Too, New World Cichlids (such as Oscars) do not recognize the signals given by Old World Haplochromines (such as your Electric Yellow and your Acei), which is very important if you want to avoid an all-out confrontation between them. > > The first comment is completely wrong -- you can put Oscars with other like-sized fish, including other South American Cichlids. > > By "African Cichlids," I'm assuming you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Just because of their specific requirements, Rift Lake Cichlids need to be kept only with other ift Lake Cichlids -- and then -- it's best if you keep Lake Malawi Cichlids separate from Lake Tanganyika Cichlids, but not imperatively so. If you keep the water parameters (pH and Hardness) between those of the two lakes it can be done quite successfully. Do not keep these fish with Lake Victoria Cichlids though, as this lake is not a Rift Lake and does not have extremely hard and very high pH parameters. > > Yes, that's correct -- you CAN'T put Oscars with African (Rift Lake) Cichlids -- in part, if only because of their very different water requirements. Also, Oscars easily reach 12" or MORE and could eventually see the much smaller Rift Lake Cichlids as food. I already cover the part that Oscars would not understand any signals given by Rift Lake Cichlids, which is most important if you want to promote compatability when they mature. > > The Electric Yellow Cichlid/Lab (Labidochromis coeruleus) is one of the very least aggressive Malawi Cichlids, so would NOT rule the tank if most any other Malawi Cichlid is in the same tank. For this reason, it may prove too timid for the more aggressive Acei (Psuedotropheus acei, I presume?). You will need to keep an eye on them as they mature. > > While on this subject, I'd like to point out the quite often Malawi Cichlids are kept as a group of a single species to prevent the killings of one fish by the other fish. Most often, one or two males are kept in proportion to 5 or 6 females of one species. Multiple species may be kept together, provided there's a lot of rockwork -- and that adequate numbers of both species are kept, to prevent cross-breeding -- but you'd need a large tank to do so. > > Provided the Peacock Eel is larger enough so that it doesn't become food, it may be kept with South and perhaps even Central American Cichlids, and definitely with West African Cichlids, but it cannot be kept with Rift Lake Cichlids as it has totally different water requirements. > > Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with Cichlids, if by "Cichlids" you mean Rift Lake Cichlids. Again, Pictus Catfish would not do very well in hard alkaline water. These Catfish may be kept with New World and West African Old World Cichlids, if the size is compatible. > > Right -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in a community tank -- IF there are Neons, Cardinals and other small fishes that he can make lunch of when he prowls around the tank at night. You CAN put Pictus Catfish in a community tank if the other inhabitants are big enough. > > No -- that's correct -- you CAN'T put Pictus Catfish in with semi-aggressive or aggressive fish, as it will get beaten up and/or killed. After all, what else would you expect from aggressive fish? > > As for the Electric Blue Cichlid (Sciaenochromis fryeri), another Lake Malawi Cichlid, YES you CAN put this fish in with other Lake Malawi Cichlids -- even with some others of its own kind. While it's not a rock-dweller, it's still advisable to provide the females with some protective cover, such as rocks, for them to retreat to with the male(s) get rough. As it's a Rift Lake Cichlid, requiring quite different water parameters, it should not be kept with South American Cichlids. It can be kept with Electric Yellow Labs though. > > Getting back to your Electric Yellow Labs -- you may have much more of a problem with these two fish as they mature, especially if any one (or both) of them are males. Without a sufficient number of them to have the aggression spread out between a number of them, your one Yellow Lab is going to take the brunt of all the aggression of the dominant fish, most probably eventually resulting in its death. I'd advise getting at least 5 more , with most of them being females if you can tell if you now have at least one male. > > Best of luck with them. > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@> wrote: > > > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > > > I was also told this: > > > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > come to the Group, >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52111	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Dawn, More great info! You answered the question that I posted earlier today that probably has not been approved yet. Now I have a problem. It looks like I need to get rid of my two Oscars and the Pictus before they are killed by the Acei or Yellow Labs. Maybe I can convince the pet stores to take back the Oscars. I hate this, as they are really nice looking fish. Getting a larger tank is not an option, though. I also have a 20 gallon community tank. It has a few glowfish, a guppy and a couple of Black Kuhli loaches in it (among other larger, but more friendly fish). Is 20 gallons big enough for a Pictus? And are the fish I mentioned potential meals for the Pictus? Question: Is the Acei compatible with the Yellow Labs? They are both Rift Lake Cichlids, right? I'm sorry I do not know "which" Acei it is. Here is a link to a pic of one http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3953656&lmdn=Live+Fish#prodTab1 Thanks again to all who replied. I have much to learn when it comes to Cichlids. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I would like to add a +1 to pretty much everything Ray said in his post. The only things I'd like to add is that in a 55 gallon tank you are going to be quite challenged to keep that oscar alive and healthy for very long, they grow very fast and are sensitive to high nitrates. I have been keeping oscars for 20yrs, one of my favorite cichlids. They all have averaged 14 - 16 inches long and are waste machines. They need space and 55 gallons isn't going to sustain one for very long unless its the only fish in the tank... and only 1 at that, with frequent water changes. Typically I suggest at least 75 gallons for minimum tank size for an adult oscar so they have enough space to actually swim around when full grown, along with massive filtration. They are messy eaters, too. > > In your mix I would remove the oscar and the pictus cat and stick to the African cichlids, since your tank is more well suited for Africans due to size. > One danger with the pictus that wasn't mentioned is that when mixed with aggressive fish, the other fish tend to target their eyes as their most vulnerable spot. I would really watch this closely. As Ray mentioned, if these are all young/juvenile fish it may appear to be peaceful and working right now, but give it a few months when these fish begin to mature and that could quickly turn into a war zone. Aggression levels can change almost overnight and tends to happen most often at night when lights are out and you're not watching. Don't be too surprised if you wake up some morning and find dead fish if they are allowed to stay together as they are now. > > One last note... mixing oscars with African cichlids, especially as aggressive as the acei can be... African cichlids do have the potential to kill an oscar, even if there is a huge size difference. I have seen it too many times over the yrs. So, its not just a difference in water parameter needs that dictates whether they are compatible or not. I would expect an adult acei to chew on an oscar as well as a pictus cat. Oscars are often termed as "gentle giants" which suits most of them when talking about personality. There are other Central and South American cichlids that don't mix well with oscars, especially in a smaller tank such as 55 gallons. Fish such as convicts, red devils, jaguar cichlids, etc. are too aggressive to keep with oscars. I will never forget the first time I saw an 8 inch oscar mixed with a 3 inch convict... the convict killed the oscar within 48 hrs. It was a horrible thing to see, and unfortunately, I've seen too many people make the same kinds of mistakes over the yrs and the oscars were always torn apart. Oscars do well with large and more peaceful fish such as severums, Argentea, giant gouramis, raphael catfish, clown knife, etc. which requires a really large tank due to the waste and space issues (over 100 gallons for most). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@> wrote: > > > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > > > I was also told this: > > > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52112	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

So, can any bottom-feeding fish coexist with Rift Lake Cichlids (i.e. Pleco)? What about a Red-tailed shark? Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52113	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Sorry, I am sure I am being annoying to more educated Cichlid owners here. Thanks for your patience. Let me be more broad. Of all of the Cichlid options, I like the African Rift Lake Cichlids the best. They seem to offer the most variety and color. So can any Rift Lake Cichlids go with any other Rift Lake Cichlids; specifically the Yellow Labs and the Acei that I already own? Are there any fish other than Rift Lake Cichlids that are compatible with the Yellow Lab/Acei? Thanks again, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52114	From: haecklers	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

If you want to "fill out the tank more" then consider the rosy red minnows,too. They only grow to 2", like cool/room temperature, and have interesting behavior - i.e. they can breed in aquaria and the males protect the nest. I think they can be pretty attractive when well-cared for, looking much like the regular goldfish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail in > there, too. > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > ~~Tara > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > Hi Tara, > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how big is > > your tank? > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for setting up > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let us > > know > > if you have any questions. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > Iife. > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of > > the > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get right > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > they > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > Tara > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52115	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

oh that's very interesting! our store has them too, I will pick up a few. Will they just breed on their on in the aquarium? That would be fun to experience!! On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 1:04 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > If you want to "fill out the tank more" then consider the rosy red > minnows,too. They only grow to 2", like cool/room temperature, and have > interesting behavior - i.e. they can breed in aquaria and the males protect > the nest. I think they can be pretty attractive when well-cared for, > looking much like the regular goldfish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail > in > > there, too. > > > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > > ~~Tara > > > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > > > Hi Tara, > > > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as > hardy > > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how > big is > > > your tank? > > > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for > setting up > > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let > us > > > know > > > if you have any questions. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > > Iife. > > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound > of > > > the > > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get > right > > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > > they > > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > > Tara > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52116	From: jasadell	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

Am I reading this correct? Rift Lake Cichlids require a 50% water change weekly? I really hope that is not the case. That is exactly why I got rid of the goldfish that I used to have. > You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake cichlid > tank.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52117	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

In answer to your questions about the pictus catfish, they average 5 - 7 inches full grown and anything that can fit into their mouths tends to be food. So, basically, the answer is no, they can't live in a 20 gallon tank and yes, the other fish currently in there would be perceived as food. Pictus catfish are extremely active fish and tend to "pace" the tank all the time. They are one of those fish that when you watch them they are always on the move (when they're healthy). 55 - 75 gallons would be a minimum tank size to accommodate their needs. As for the acei and the yellow labs, that could work provided you have enough rock work/decor in the tank. Cichlids in general are quite territorial, so as long as everyone has enough territory so as not to invade another's territory, they can learn to coexist without much trouble. Rule of thumb for any African cichlid tank is massive amounts of rock work and decor that creates spaces between each piece to provide plenty of territory. Territory can be defined as a space between 2 objects, large enough for a fish to get in there and claim it for its own. Another rule of thumb with cichlids is that when you start with just a few and begin to add more, rearrange the decor in the tank while acclimating each newcomer to force all fish to find new territories to claim at the same time. This helps to prevent "intruders" that are targeted for attack for stealing another fish's territory. It also helps to add something new for decor to create a new territory or 2 each time you add a fish. Each fish should have at least 2 territories available for it without invading anothers. The other thing to give thought to is wide open spaces in the tank. This is 1 big territory and the strongest, most dominant fish will claim it all for its own. This means if the whole upper part of the tank or front of the tank is open, 1 fish is going to fight to protect it, especially at feeding time. This is important to know so when you decorate you are sure to fill up those open spaces as much as possible. The more decor in the tank the more you will actually see of the fish, too, as they will feel more comfortable moving around the tank and not feeling a need to hide every time they sense motion around the tank. A healthy African cichlid tank should have enough rock work and decor so that when someone approaches the tank all of the fish seem to completely disappear. I have coached many customers on decor in African cichlid tanks and the one tip I've offered most often and been thanked the most for is to line the front and middle of the tank with the rock work instead of the back, because when the fish "hide" then they are in a place that allows for optimal viewing instead of looking at what appears to be an empty tank until they all come out again. This applies most in high traffic areas and with new fish that are still adjusting to their new environment. Too often I have heard people complain that they line the back wall of the tank with the rock work and every time they approached the tank they couldn't see the fish who all swam into the rocks to hide. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > More great info! You answered the question that I posted earlier today that probably has not been approved yet. > > Now I have a problem. It looks like I need to get rid of my two Oscars and the Pictus before they are killed by the Acei or Yellow Labs. > > Maybe I can convince the pet stores to take back the Oscars. I hate this, as they are really nice looking fish. Getting a larger tank is not an option, though. > > I also have a 20 gallon community tank. It has a few glowfish, a guppy and a couple of Black Kuhli loaches in it (among other larger, but more friendly fish). Is 20 gallons big enough for a Pictus? And are the fish I mentioned potential meals for the Pictus? > > Question: Is the Acei compatible with the Yellow Labs? They are both Rift Lake Cichlids, right? I'm sorry I do not know "which" Acei it is. Here is a link to a pic of one http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3953656&lmdn=Live+Fish#prodTab1 > > Thanks again to all who replied. I have much to learn when it comes to Cichlids. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I would like to add a +1 to pretty much everything Ray said in his post. The only things I'd like to add is that in a 55 gallon tank you are going to be quite challenged to keep that oscar alive and healthy for very long, they grow very fast and are sensitive to high nitrates. I have been keeping oscars for 20yrs, one of my favorite cichlids. They all have averaged 14 - 16 inches long and are waste machines. They need space and 55 gallons isn't going to sustain one for very long unless its the only fish in the tank... and only 1 at that, with frequent water changes. Typically I suggest at least 75 gallons for minimum tank size for an adult oscar so they have enough space to actually swim around when full grown, along with massive filtration. They are messy eaters, too. > > > > In your mix I would remove the oscar and the pictus cat and stick to the African cichlids, since your tank is more well suited for Africans due to size. > > One danger with the pictus that wasn't mentioned is that when mixed with aggressive fish, the other fish tend to target their eyes as their most vulnerable spot. I would really watch this closely. As Ray mentioned, if these are all young/juvenile fish it may appear to be peaceful and working right now, but give it a few months when these fish begin to mature and that could quickly turn into a war zone. Aggression levels can change almost overnight and tends to happen most often at night when lights are out and you're not watching. Don't be too surprised if you wake up some morning and find dead fish if they are allowed to stay together as they are now. > > > > One last note... mixing oscars with African cichlids, especially as aggressive as the acei can be... African cichlids do have the potential to kill an oscar, even if there is a huge size difference. I have seen it too many times over the yrs. So, its not just a difference in water parameter needs that dictates whether they are compatible or not. I would expect an adult acei to chew on an oscar as well as a pictus cat. Oscars are often termed as "gentle giants" which suits most of them when talking about personality. There are other Central and South American cichlids that don't mix well with oscars, especially in a smaller tank such as 55 gallons. Fish such as convicts, red devils, jaguar cichlids, etc. are too aggressive to keep with oscars. I will never forget the first time I saw an 8 inch oscar mixed with a 3 inch convict... the convict killed the oscar within 48 hrs. It was a horrible thing to see, and unfortunately, I've seen too many people make the same kinds of mistakes over the yrs and the oscars were always torn apart. Oscars do well with large and more peaceful fish such as severums, Argentea, giant gouramis, raphael catfish, clown knife, etc. which requires a really large tank due to the waste and space issues (over 100 gallons for most). > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > > > > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > > > > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they were compatible before I selected them. > > > > > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. Here's what I was told by them: > > > > > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > > > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > > > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars African Cichlids?) > > > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > > > > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > > > > > I was also told this: > > > > > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of those, too) > > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > > > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even of it's same kind > > > > > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > > > > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > > > > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the selections I have chosen? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > JD > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52118	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, I cannot speak to the Acei, but I have kept yellow labs with Lemon Jacob Freibergi Peacocks with very little aggression problems. Beware though they can hybridize! Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: jasadell <jason_dell@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:28 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility Sorry, I am sure I am being annoying to more educated Cichlid owners here. Thanks for your patience. Let me be more broad. Of all of the Cichlid options, I like the African Rift Lake Cichlids the best. They seem to offer the most variety and color. So can any Rift Lake Cichlids go with any other Rift Lake Cichlids; specifically the Yellow Labs and the Acei that I already own? Are there any fish other than Rift Lake Cichlids that are compatible with the Yellow Lab/Acei? Thanks again, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52119	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Red tail shark, definitely not. The cichlids would rip it apart soon enough. The best bottom feeding fishes for any African cichlid tank is the synodontis species.... there are many to choose from. One of my favorites is the lace catfish (synodontis nigrita) and another favorite is the upside down catfish (synodontis nigriventris) due to their smaller size than some of the others. Please do some checking before investing in a synodontis species because some of them can grow quite large... too large for a 55 gallon tank, and some of them look quite similar to their smaller cousins. Be sure of what you are getting before you take it home so you don't run into trouble with space/size later. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > So, can any bottom-feeding fish coexist with Rift Lake Cichlids (i.e. Pleco)? What about a Red-tailed shark? > > Thanks, > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52120	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD Some plecos can do well with rift lake cichlids. I have had some bushy nose plecos lose almost all their bristles from the cichlids biting them off! At the moment I have bushy nose with the Lemon Jake Peacocks without drama or trauma. Some of them had three babies in the last few months. I am sure there were more baby plecos but they are bite size for the cichlids. I keep adding rocks, caves, and driftwood for more hiding places. -Mike G -----Original Message----- From: jasadell <jason_dell@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 22, 2011 11:27 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility So, can any bottom-feeding fish coexist with Rift Lake Cichlids (i.e. Pleco)? What about a Red-tailed shark? Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52121	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, you are not annoying anyone with your questions. We all encourage questions, thats the only way to learn. My favorite to keep with the yellow labs is the various color morphs of the zebras... red zebras, blue zebras, and the albinos can be quite pretty too. These are a bit less aggressive than many of the other Africans and tend to make great tank mates for the less aggressive labs. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Sorry, I am sure I am being annoying to more educated Cichlid owners here. Thanks for your patience. > > Let me be more broad. Of all of the Cichlid options, I like the African Rift Lake Cichlids the best. They seem to offer the most variety and color. So can any Rift Lake Cichlids go with any other Rift Lake Cichlids; specifically the Yellow Labs and the Acei that I already own? > > Are there any fish other than Rift Lake Cichlids that are compatible with the Yellow Lab/Acei? > > Thanks again, > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52122	From: Jaiko	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Questions

For keeping awake at night jasadell <jason_dell@...> wrote: >Am I reading this correct? Rift Lake Cichlids require a 50% water change weekly? I really hope that is not the case. That is exactly why I got rid of the goldfish that I used to have. > >> You do 50% weekly (or more) water changes on an African Rift Lake cichlid >> tank. > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52123	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

There are plenty of options that work with labs and acei, but not all Rift Lake cichlids, or even Malawi cichlids, or even mbuna can be mixed. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 2:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility Sorry, I am sure I am being annoying to more educated Cichlid owners here. Thanks for your patience. Let me be more broad. Of all of the Cichlid options, I like the African Rift Lake Cichlids the best. They seem to offer the most variety and color. So can any Rift Lake Cichlids go with any other Rift Lake Cichlids; specifically the Yellow Labs and the Acei that I already own? Are there any fish other than Rift Lake Cichlids that are compatible with the Yellow Lab/Acei? Thanks again, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52124	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Watch out for the red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) as they hybridize with yellow labs. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2011 5:28 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility JD, you are not annoying anyone with your questions. We all encourage questions, thats the only way to learn. My favorite to keep with the yellow labs is the various color morphs of the zebras... red zebras, blue zebras, and the albinos can be quite pretty too. These are a bit less aggressive than many of the other Africans and tend to make great tank mates for the less aggressive labs. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > Sorry, I am sure I am being annoying to more educated Cichlid owners here. Thanks for your patience. > > Let me be more broad. Of all of the Cichlid options, I like the African Rift Lake Cichlids the best. They seem to offer the most variety and color. So can any Rift Lake Cichlids go with any other Rift Lake Cichlids; specifically the Yellow Labs and the Acei that I already own? > > Are there any fish other than Rift Lake Cichlids that are compatible with the Yellow Lab/Acei? > > Thanks again, > JD > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52125	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Nancy, Mine talk to me just the same way by snapping at the surface for their food-if I don't close the slider fast enough I get a face full, these are big, powerful fish! Tiny my female Common just shouts at me whenever I move & when I grab the food she recognizes the container & picks up mouthfuls of gravel & spits them out in excitement! Marmalade, one of my male Comets puts his head right out the water like a performing Dolphin to take food from my hand-they've had grapefruit & krill this evening as a treat. John*<o)))< * On 22 September 2011 16:14, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > ** > > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they > are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 > males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care > of. > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if > they wanted a treat. > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > Good luck, > Nancy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52126	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Tara, You're welcome-yes it is an excellent site, simple & straight to the point. You will not go far wrong & remember that although they are little ones just now they have the potential to grow to almost a foot long & live for very many years-big filtration & frequent water changes really are the keys to success with these fish. John*<o)))< * On 22 September 2011 17:28, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail > in > there, too. > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > ~~Tara > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > > Hi Tara, > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how big > is > > your tank? > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for setting > up > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let us > > know > > if you have any questions. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > Iife. > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of > > the > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get > right > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > they > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > Tara > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52127	From: Becky	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

*I have feeders and rosies in my pond...they do look very similar when larger and my rosies are 3+ inches long...goldfish over 4", and thats after one yr, but I'm in south Florida, they overwinter in the pond on the porch, under cover all year...;o)... * On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 4:04 PM, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > If you want to "fill out the tank more" then consider the rosy red > minnows,too. They only grow to 2", like cool/room temperature, and have > interesting behavior - i.e. they can breed in aquaria and the males protect > the nest. I think they can be pretty attractive when well-cared for, looking > much like the regular goldfish. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail > in > > there, too. > > > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > > ~~Tara > > > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > > > Hi Tara, > > > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how > big is > > > your tank? > > > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for > setting up > > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let > us > > > know > > > if you have any questions. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > > Iife. > > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound > of > > > the > > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get > right > > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > > they > > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > > Tara > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , > .���`�..><((((�> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52128	From: k chen	Date: 9/22/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Noura, Since you are not feeding heavily and your tank is heavily planted, I would recommend not changing the filter until your fry fishes grow up a bit more, say three months. Those internal filter may look dirty but they provide a lot of good bacteria to break down toxic outputs from fishes. Since your fishes are very small and tank is heavily planted, plants also take out some toxic outputs from fishes, you dont need to change filter for quiet a while. Karl To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: tiggernut24@... Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:33:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. I just don't change everything at once. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question Hi Noura, In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank for about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if so you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed things up even more. Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. John On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi group! > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > heavily planted. > > Thanks, > Noura > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52129	From: haecklers	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Here's an interesting account from someone who bred some rosy reds in an aquarium: http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_Pimephales_promelas.php --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > oh that's very interesting! our store has them too, I will pick up a few. > Will they just breed on their on in the aquarium? That would be fun to > experience!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52130	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re "feeder goldfish"-John

I didn'y know they ate grapefruit>>>>>what a  strange thing. Any other table foods? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52131	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I had an Oscar that I kept alone for quite a few months, then I added a convict cichlid. Very bad choice there. She beat my poor oscar up to bits, and he was easily 5 times her size (or more). So while Oscars are often bigger than other cichlids they can easily get bullied and picked on by smaller/faster aggressive cichlids. I would also suggest at minimum a 75 gallon for just 1 oscar (no other fish). They will need plenty of room to turn around, and a 55 gallon tank just isn't deep (front to back measuring) enough for an oscar to easily move around in once fully grown. Growing them in a smaller tank and moving to a larger one will work, but as stated you will need to do lots of water changes because they are very messy fish (eat a lot and poop a lot, pooping machines, LOL). My oscars were very gentle compared to all other cichlids I've had (including Angel's). Amber On 9/21/2011 11:51 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > I would like to add a +1 to pretty much everything Ray said in his > post. The only things I'd like to add is that in a 55 gallon tank you > are going to be quite challenged to keep that oscar alive and healthy > for very long, they grow very fast and are sensitive to high nitrates. > I have been keeping oscars for 20yrs, one of my favorite cichlids. > They all have averaged 14 - 16 inches long and are waste machines. > They need space and 55 gallons isn't going to sustain one for very > long unless its the only fish in the tank... and only 1 at that, with > frequent water changes. Typically I suggest at least 75 gallons for > minimum tank size for an adult oscar so they have enough space to > actually swim around when full grown, along with massive filtration. > They are messy eaters, too. > > In your mix I would remove the oscar and the pictus cat and stick to > the African cichlids, since your tank is more well suited for Africans > due to size. > One danger with the pictus that wasn't mentioned is that when mixed > with aggressive fish, the other fish tend to target their eyes as > their most vulnerable spot. I would really watch this closely. As Ray > mentioned, if these are all young/juvenile fish it may appear to be > peaceful and working right now, but give it a few months when these > fish begin to mature and that could quickly turn into a war zone. > Aggression levels can change almost overnight and tends to happen most > often at night when lights are out and you're not watching. Don't be > too surprised if you wake up some morning and find dead fish if they > are allowed to stay together as they are now. > > One last note... mixing oscars with African cichlids, especially as > aggressive as the acei can be... African cichlids do have the > potential to kill an oscar, even if there is a huge size difference. I > have seen it too many times over the yrs. So, its not just a > difference in water parameter needs that dictates whether they are > compatible or not. I would expect an adult acei to chew on an oscar as > well as a pictus cat. Oscars are often termed as "gentle giants" which > suits most of them when talking about personality. There are other > Central and South American cichlids that don't mix well with oscars, > especially in a smaller tank such as 55 gallons. Fish such as > convicts, red devils, jaguar cichlids, etc. are too aggressive to keep > with oscars. I will never forget the first time I saw an 8 inch oscar > mixed with a 3 inch convict... the convict killed the oscar within 48 > hrs. It was a horrible thing to see, and unfortunately, I've seen too > many people make the same kinds of mistakes over the yrs and the > oscars were always torn apart. Oscars do well with large and more > peaceful fish such as severums, Argentea, giant gouramis, raphael > catfish, clown knife, etc. which requires a really large tank due to > the waste and space issues (over 100 gallons for most). > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> wrote: > > > > Hi all. First post to this group. > > > > One thing I have noticed is that no matter how much I research, or > how many questions I ask to store employees, everyone's opinion on > compatibility is different. So I'll ask for a few more opinions here > to this group before I decide to form my own opinions :) > > > > I've been doing community freshwater fish for about 30 years, give > or take. I have a 55 gallon tank that I decided to convert to my first > semi-aggressive/aggressive tank. I try to support my local > store-owners, so after balancing my tank, I went to one store and > started out with a Tiger Oscar, and Electric Yellow Cichlid, and an > Acei Cichlid. I asked lots of questions beforehand to make sure they > were compatible before I selected them. > > > > I let them cook for a couple of weeks to make sure there were no > issues. All was well, so I went to another store to pick out a few > more. This particular chain Pet Store has employees that always seem > to have strong opinions about why I should NOT buy their fish. > However, they had what I was looking for and they have a good > warranty, so I picked them up there anyway after a bit of haggling. > Here's what I was told by them: > > > > * You can only put Oscars with Oscars > > * You can only put African Cichlids with African Cichlids > > * You can't put Oscars with African Cichlids (uh, aren't Oscars > African Cichlids?) > > * Your Electric Yellow Cichlid will rule the tank when it matures > > > > Well, so much for the opinion of the employee at store #1 (or, for > the opinion of the employee at store #2?) > > > > I was also told this: > > > > * You can't put a Striped Peacock Eel with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Cichlids > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish in a community tank (I have one of > those, too) > > * You can't put a Pictus Catfish with Semi-Agressive or Aggressive > fish (then what CAN you put them with?) > > * You can't put an Electric Blue Cichlid with any other fish, even > of it's same kind > > > > It was about then that I decided that I had had heard enough > conflicting opinions, and so I told the employee as kindly as I could > to shut up and bag me up a Pictus Cafish, an Albino Oscar, and a > second Electric Yellow Cichlid and went on my way. > > > > They all seem to be getting along swell. The older Electric Yellow > was kind of bossy to the new Electric Yellow until the latter knew who > was in charge, but after about a day they get along just fine. > > > > So what's up with everyone's opinions? How does one truly know what > is compatible? Does anyone see any blatant problems with the > selections I have chosen? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52132	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

John Tiny is a riot! And could you get a picture of marmalade, how cool that she comes out of the water to hand feed! Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, Sep 23, 2011 04:04:00 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] silly question :) - "feeder goldfish" Hi Tara, You're welcome-yes it is an excellent site, simple & straight to the point. You will not go far wrong & remember that although they are little ones just now they have the potential to grow to almost a foot long & live for very many years-big filtration & frequent water changes really are the keys to success with these fish. John*<o)))< * On 22 September 2011 17:28, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail > in > there, too. > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > ~~Tara > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > > Hi Tara, > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how big > is > > your tank? > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for setting > up > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let us > > know > > if you have any questions. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > Iife. > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound of > > the > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get > right > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > they > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > Tara > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------------------ AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52133	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Excellent, thank you. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 12:36, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > Here's an interesting account from someone who bred some rosy reds in an > aquarium: > http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_Pimephales_promelas.php > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > oh that's very interesting! our store has them too, I will pick up a few. > > Will they just breed on their on in the aquarium? That would be fun to > > experience!! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52134	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

OK help me out here. hybridize, meaning cross breed? What would be the problem with this happening? Thanks again (all) JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Watch out for the red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) as they hybridize with > yellow labs.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52135	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi everyone, I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I make. I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her "Elle". I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some questions... When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right now) Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue feeding her the summer diet? When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to move her intO? While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being inside though, it will be different. Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. Thanks in advance! Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52136	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Does Warranty Really Matter?

As I have mentioned before, I try to use local businesses when possible. There is a new specialty pet store that started up in our town that has some really beautiful Cichlids. My concern is that they have no warranty whatsoever. They state "we can't offer a warranty because we don't know what kind of environment they are being put into." Now this is completely true, and I see their point. However, there are two other chain pet stores that offer 2 week and 1 month warranties each, no matter how uneducated their customers are. I have personally utilized the warranties on several occasions for my 20 gallon community tank. So what's the common consensus on the warranty rule? Should I trust this place? I hate to blow $4-$15 a pop on potentially unhealthy fish. Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52137	From: jasadell	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years with no issues. Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will go dormant and not eat all winter. If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in the fall until the snow flies. Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months for years and years. If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you need to), here are a few pointers: * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in your tank * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, Koi are cold water fish. * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of the Nitrogen cycle). * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it them. Koi are very hardy. BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or Raccoon comes by. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I make. > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her "Elle". > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some questions... > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right now) > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue feeding her the summer diet? > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to move her intO? > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being inside though, it will be different. > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. > > Thanks in advance! > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52138	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

The fish don't actually grow to the size of the tank, they stop growing due to stunting which is usually caused by a combination of high nitrate levels (which are toxic and cause internal damage) and an over abundance of growth hormones (which also can cause internal damage). Neither of those things is healthy for the fish and are known to shorten the lifespan and cause suffering. A healthy comet should be 12 - 14 inches in length by the time it is about 3 yrs old. I don't want to be rude but I can't help saying that to purposely stunt the growth of any animal is cruel. To advise others to do it is also cruel. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew  to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care of. > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if they wanted a treat. > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > Good luck, > Nancy > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52139	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Re "feeder goldfish"-John

Hi Nancy, In the wild Carps are opportunist omnivores so anything is fair game for these fish! My lot have a basic staple diet of a 3 part mix consisting of 4mm premium Koi pellets, regular pond sticks & dried shrimp. Assorted additional treats in moderation include large Pro Gold pellets, most cooked green veggies - spinach, broccoli tops, cauliflower tops, shelled soya beans, garden peas etc, cooled boiled rice, egg-fried rice & pilau rice, cooked egg yolk, frozen brine shrimp, bloodworm, daphnia & krill. With the citrus I prepare it by peeling a segment & then you usually get the individual little pods inside this & these are ideal-especially in a grapefruit as they are bigger. I've also offered oranges, limes & lemons but grapefruit seems to be the most popular & the citrus is great for their vitamin C content. I would not recommend feeding the hard boiled egg yolk unless you have some serious filtration going on as it can be very messy. The frozen daphnia is way too small for my large fish to see it individually so I only feed that food when I do a water change so everything is still-then I use it straight out of the freezer but just chop it up into chunks so they can all get a decent mouthful. I wouldn't recommend this for fancy Goldfish with their delicate intestines but for regular streamlined fish such as Comets, Commons & Shubunkins they will thrive on such a varied diet. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 15:52, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > ** > > > I didn'y know they ate grapefruit>>>>>what a strange thing. Any other > table foods? > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52140	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Bren, I'll try & get a couple of video clips tomorrow of both fish doing what they do best & post the links here. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 14:46, safirezprincess@... < safirezprincess@...> wrote: > ** > > > John > Tiny is a riot! And could you get a picture of marmalade, how cool that she > comes out of the water to hand feed! > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52141	From: Ray	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Dawn, You undoubtedly meant growth INHIBITIBG hormones, which for the new members here, are exactly what they are. (Growth hormones sounds like something beneficial). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > The fish don't actually grow to the size of the tank, they stop growing due to stunting which is usually caused by a combination of high nitrate levels (which are toxic and cause internal damage) and an over abundance of growth hormones (which also can cause internal damage). Neither of those things is healthy for the fish and are known to shorten the lifespan and cause suffering. > A healthy comet should be 12 - 14 inches in length by the time it is about 3 yrs old. > > I don't want to be rude but I can't help saying that to purposely stunt the growth of any animal is cruel. To advise others to do it is also cruel. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@> wrote: > > > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew  to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care of. > > > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if they wanted a treat. > > > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > > Good luck, > > Nancy > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52142	From: Ray	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Should read -- INHIBITING. Got to go back to spelling 101 < g >. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > You undoubtedly meant growth INHIBITIBG hormones, which for the new members here, are exactly what they are. (Growth hormones sounds like something beneficial). > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > The fish don't actually grow to the size of the tank, they stop growing due to stunting which is usually caused by a combination of high nitrate levels (which are toxic and cause internal damage) and an over abundance of growth hormones (which also can cause internal damage). Neither of those things is healthy for the fish and are known to shorten the lifespan and cause suffering. > > A healthy comet should be 12 - 14 inches in length by the time it is about 3 yrs old. > > > > I don't want to be rude but I can't help saying that to purposely stunt the growth of any animal is cruel. To advise others to do it is also cruel. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@> wrote: > > > > > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew  to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care of. > > > > > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if they wanted a treat. > > > > > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > > > > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > > > Good luck, > > > Nancy > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52143	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Dawn, I agree with you 100% but I wouldn't blame the majority of owners who buy the fish in good faith & expect the store to give them correct advice-I think most people are shocked when they find out they might actually be killing their fish. In my mind the problem is squarely in the hands of stores & commercial internet sites who will give you the same advice people want to hear that Goldfish will only grow to the size of the tank they are in-I guess this is partly out of ignorance or half truths passed down & partly to get people involved in the hobby, after all if you buy a Goldfish for a few pennies & then get told you need to spend several hundred dollars/ponds on the equipment most people will walk. This problem is furthered by the popular iconic image of Goldfish in bowls & the general perception that they are short lived, replaceable & have a 3 second memory. When anyone asks me about getting Goldfish for a beginner my first response is don't, instead buy a 20 gallon & set up a nice little tropical community. If they really want Goldfish I tell them to buy the biggest tank they can afford, large & powerful filters & expect to spend lots of time, money & effort plus it's better not to have your water metered!! John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 21:33, dawnshungryeyes4u2c < dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > ** > > > The fish don't actually grow to the size of the tank, they stop growing due > to stunting which is usually caused by a combination of high nitrate levels > (which are toxic and cause internal damage) and an over abundance of growth > hormones (which also can cause internal damage). Neither of those things is > healthy for the fish and are known to shorten the lifespan and cause > suffering. > A healthy comet should be 12 - 14 inches in length by the time it is about > 3 yrs old. > > I don't want to be rude but I can't help saying that to purposely stunt the > growth of any animal is cruel. To advise others to do it is also cruel. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > > > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of tank > they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew to 7-9 inches long. I had 6 > males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and easy to take care > of. > > > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking water if > they wanted a treat. > > > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > > Good luck, > > Nancy > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52144	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi Desire', Probably more difficult to sex your fish as you don't have any others of known sex to compare with but like Goldfish a female Koi is more rounded & can possibly look slightly assymetrical from above whereas a male is more streamlined & symmetrical. Also like Goldfish the males can develop tubercles or breeding stars on their gill plates. If you can feel the surface of Elle's gills she is probably female if they are smooth & probably male if the are like sandpaper. Male Koi often have smooth, elliptical pectoral fins whereas the female may have more scalloped edges on the trailing edge of her fins. Of course these are generalisations-I have seen or heard of exceptions to all of them. Some excellent advice from JD there regarding keeping her outside but if you are going to move Elle indoors [I get the feeling you really want to!!] then there really is no need to alter her diet as she will not have to compensate for overwintering & slowing her system down to tickover so just carry on feeding as normal. Because she is only small just now you will be fine overwintering her in a 55-75 gallon tank as long as you have some good filtration going on-be sure to put some media from your pond filter into your tank filter to seed it & as JD says keep checking your parameters daily with plenty of large water changes-I would even suggest up to 50% weekly. Last Winter I fostered a similar sized Koi in a 25 [UK] gallon tank with a Sarassa as a buddy with no problem. He went into a 2500 gallon pond last Spring. I saw him last week & he must be over a foot long so yes Elle will literally explode when you put her outside next Spring so you need to be digging a new pond in the meantime! Might I also suggest a buddy or two? They do far better with company. Regarding predators-a full net is the very minimum I would recommend, plus an electronic, movement activated Heron scarer which will also drive off the neighbourhood cats. Don't bother with heating the tank if she is indoors then she will be fine with the ambient room temperature. Any good quality feeds will be fine-4mm floating Koi pellets, dried shrimp, regular pond sticks. Also she will love cooked broccoli tops or cauliflower a couple of times a week. Hard to say exactly how much to feed-try for a rounded a teaspoonful per day but if possible spread this amount out over the entire day if this is possible so she will not be feeding all at once. This is a UK site but some great advice: http://www.fishhelpline.co.uk/index.html that will be useful next year when she goes out into a pond again next year. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 20:17, jasadell <jason_dell@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that you > can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can keep a > hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and filter during > the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the pump can run in the > winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it up like a mini fountain. > I had a pump that was not very industrial, but ran through winters that got > well below zero for years and years with no issues. > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the surface. > Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure how cold it > gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will go dormant and > not eat all winter. > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in the > fall until the snow flies. > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. Mine > lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months for years > and years. > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you need > to), here are a few pointers: > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put in > the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in your tank > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, Koi > are cold water fish. > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes weekly, > including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to test the water > frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no issues. The challenge I > had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of the Nitrogen cycle). > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it them. > Koi are very hardy. > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during the > warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or Raccoon > comes by. > > JD > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I > make. > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back > in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, > I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South > (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not > for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond > is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. > I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have > called her "Elle". > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > questions... > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read > said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right > now) > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a > koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. > Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size > aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very > high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for > mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a > heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back > outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), > what is the best water temp to move her intO? > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I > feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you > stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being > inside though, it will be different. > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new > to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52145	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Cichlids produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 fry per female every other month. In a 55G you might have 12 females. If the fry are pure you can sell them or give them away. They live 8 years and would require a LOT of tanks to house. If they are hybrids you would not want to do that and many of us prefer not to euthanize healthy animals and/or maintain that many tanks. You might plan to let the cichlids spit the fry in the tank and let nature take it’s course. This dramatically reduces your numbers, but you will occasionally get a survivor fry and your tank will become overpopulated eventually. If the fry are pure, again you can sell or give away any extras. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:32 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility OK help me out here. hybridize, meaning cross breed? What would be the problem with this happening? Thanks again (all) JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Watch out for the red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) as they hybridize with > yellow labs. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52146	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?

Shop elsewhere. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter? As I have mentioned before, I try to use local businesses when possible. There is a new specialty pet store that started up in our town that has some really beautiful Cichlids. My concern is that they have no warranty whatsoever. They state "we can't offer a warranty because we don't know what kind of environment they are being put into." Now this is completely true, and I see their point. However, there are two other chain pet stores that offer 2 week and 1 month warranties each, no matter how uneducated their customers are. I have personally utilized the warranties on several occasions for my 20 gallon community tank. So what's the common consensus on the warranty rule? Should I trust this place? I hate to blow $4-$15 a pop on potentially unhealthy fish. Thanks, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52147	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? They get huge... Amber On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > with no issues. > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > the fall until the snow flies. > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > for years and years. > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > need to), here are a few pointers: > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > your tank > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > Koi are cold water fish. > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > the Nitrogen cycle). > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > them. Koi are very hardy. > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > Raccoon comes by. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > one I make. > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > "Elle". > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > questions... > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > about 80 right now) > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > move her intO? > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > possible. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52148	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Thanks for bringing this up Dawn. I was just about to post on it until I came across your post. A lot of people think that fish "grow to the size of their tanks", a lot of this is caused from bad information from bad pet/fish stores (employees often know nothing about fish, but try to offer advice anyways). All commets should be kept in VERY VERY (such as 300 gallons or more) large tanks, or a pond, especially if you're going to keep half a dozen or more in one tank. I also agree that it's cruel to purposefully stunt the growth of any animal. I always advise people to get bigger tanks and under stock them, rather than a little tank with LOTS of little fish :( Heck my 125 gallon tank probably doesn't even have enough fish, compared to how other people stock their 125 gallon tanks, but I feel that the fish should feel it's like a large pond, not an over crowded puddle. Amber On 9/23/2011 12:33 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > The fish don't actually grow to the size of the tank, they stop > growing due to stunting which is usually caused by a combination of > high nitrate levels (which are toxic and cause internal damage) and an > over abundance of growth hormones (which also can cause internal > damage). Neither of those things is healthy for the fish and are known > to shorten the lifespan and cause suffering. > A healthy comet should be 12 - 14 inches in length by the time it is > about 3 yrs old. > > I don't want to be rude but I can't help saying that to purposely > stunt the growth of any animal is cruel. To advise others to do it is > also cruel. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> > wrote: > > > > I had had feeders a few times. They grow according to the size of > tank they are in. Mine was a 30 gallon and they grew to 7-9 inches > long. I had 6 males. I know that was alot but they seemed content and > easy to take care of. > > > > Although they got to know my habits and talked to me by breaking > water if they wanted a treat. > > > > BTW< they love frozen peas. > > > > I am thinking of possibly setting up another tank of them. > > Good luck, > > Nancy > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52149	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Just wanted to add why people don't want hybrids. Most fish owners want pure fish, so they know what to expect in colors/size/etc. Most fish stores won't want to purchase hybrid fish from you (unless they don't know anything about fish, which can happen). It's kind of like with dogs. People don't want to buy a mutt, but they're willing to dish out money on a pure bred dog. Amber On 9/23/2011 5:14 PM, Donna Ransome wrote: > > Cichlids produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 fry per female every > other month. In a 55G you might have 12 females. > > If the fry are pure you can sell them or give them away. They live 8 years > and would require a LOT of tanks to house. > > If they are hybrids you would not want to do that and many of us > prefer not > to euthanize healthy animals and/or maintain that many tanks. > > You might plan to let the cichlids spit the fry in the tank and let nature > take it’s course. This dramatically reduces your numbers, but you will > occasionally get a survivor fry and your tank will become overpopulated > eventually. If the fry are pure, again you can sell or give away any > extras. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:32 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility > > OK help me out here. hybridize, meaning cross breed? What would be the > problem with this happening? > > Thanks again (all) > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > Watch out for the red zebras (Metriaclima estherae) as they > hybridize with > > yellow labs. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52150	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?

My local fish store doesn't have an official warranty. But I've come in and explained the problems if/when I've ever had fish die on me. If it's not my fault (or they don't think it is) they will often replace the fish once. But if they think it's something I've done (stupidity or something), they won't offer to replace the fish at all. I've learned this the last 3 years of my shopping there. I tend to get my expensive fish off of aquabid from breeders directly, since I get a discount on my fedex shipping. In the end it costs about the same as if I had purchased them from my local store, and this way they only have to acclimate once after traveling. Not to mention my local fish store doesn't have a very large selection of fish and I often have to wait months and months for the kind of fish I'm looking for. And other times they never get the fish I want. So if it's something special I'm looking for I just shop on aquabid. Amber On 9/23/2011 5:15 PM, Donna Ransome wrote: > > Shop elsewhere. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:39 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter? > > As I have mentioned before, I try to use local businesses when possible. > > There is a new specialty pet store that started up in our town that > has some > really beautiful Cichlids. My concern is that they have no warranty > whatsoever. They state "we can't offer a warranty because we don't > know what > kind of environment they are being put into." Now this is completely true, > and I see their point. However, there are two other chain pet stores that > offer 2 week and 1 month warranties each, no matter how uneducated their > customers are. I have personally utilized the warranties on several > occasions for my 20 gallon community tank. > > So what's the common consensus on the warranty rule? Should I trust this > place? I hate to blow $4-$15 a pop on potentially unhealthy fish. > > Thanks, > JD > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52151	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply soon! Desire' in Louisiana. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > They get huge... > > Amber > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: >> >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. >> >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years >> with no issues. >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will >> go dormant and not eat all winter. >> >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in >> the fall until the snow flies. >> >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months >> for years and years. >> >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you >> need to), here are a few pointers: >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in >> your tank >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, >> Koi are cold water fish. >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of >> the Nitrogen cycle). >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. >> >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it >> them. Koi are very hardy. >> >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or >> Raccoon comes by. >> >> JD >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" >> <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: >> > >> > Hi everyone, >> > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first >> one I make. >> > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her >> "Elle". >> > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some >> questions... >> > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its >> about 80 right now) >> > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue >> feeding her the summer diet? >> > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to >> move her intO? >> > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her >> being inside though, it will be different. >> > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care >> possible. >> > >> > Thanks in advance! >> > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52152	From: john Lewis	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?

Hello:    I don't see anything wrong that would keep me from shopping there.  Even though there is no warranty, I've found that often when there is a "legitimate" problem, many stores (warranty or not) will try to work things out.  If the cichlids are good looking and feeding (usually they'll feed them to show you) I wouldn't have a problem in buying them.  Just my two cents worth.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter?   Shop elsewhere. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:39 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter? As I have mentioned before, I try to use local businesses when possible. There is a new specialty pet store that started up in our town that has some really beautiful Cichlids. My concern is that they have no warranty whatsoever. They state "we can't offer a warranty because we don't know what kind of environment they are being put into." Now this is completely true, and I see their point. However, there are two other chain pet stores that offer 2 week and 1 month warranties each, no matter how uneducated their customers are. I have personally utilized the warranties on several occasions for my 20 gallon community tank. So what's the common consensus on the warranty rule? Should I trust this place? I hate to blow $4-$15 a pop on potentially unhealthy fish. Thanks, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52153	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 9/23/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Wow John!! Even my little babies could get to almost a foot long?? that is incredible!! I hope they will survive & I am glad to hear they have personalities too!! :))) Tara On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 6:00 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > Hi Tara, > > You're welcome-yes it is an excellent site, simple & straight to the > point. You will not go far wrong & remember that although they are little > ones just now they have the potential to grow to almost a foot long & live > for very many years-big filtration & frequent water changes really are the > keys to success with these fish. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 22 September 2011 17:28, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thank you John. I have a 55gal that I want them in. I have only 5 of the > > little ones from the petstore. Right now they are in a 20. I have a snail > > in > > there, too. > > > > thank you for the website. It looks great:) > > ~~Tara > > > > On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 4:14 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Tara, > > > > > > Goldfish are cheap & plentiful, this is why they are perceived as hardy > > > simply because they are usually the fish that newcomers make all their > > > terrible mistakes with. In reality > > > Goldfish<http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html>are quite > > > > > tolerant of a wide range of situations as long as they are kept in > > > large tanks with lots of filtration. How many fish do you have & how > big > > is > > > your tank? > > > > > > This is an excellent page dealing with just about everything for > setting > > up > > > a Goldfish tank: http://thegab.org/Goldfish/goldfish-basics.html let > us > > > know > > > if you have any questions. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 21 September 2011 17:02, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I am pretty quiet here. I've had tanks in my life, basically my whole > > > Iife. > > > > I have a tank that I wanted to set up because I enjoy have the sound > of > > > the > > > > filter & water - anyways. I really wasn't sure what I wanted to get > > right > > > > now so I got some "feeder goldfish". I am not really sure how "hardy" > > > they > > > > are. Can anyone give me any ideas? Tips? etc? I would appreciate any > > > > feedback. Thanks. > > > > Tara > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT > > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52154	From: jasadell	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Koi will eat right out of your hand. They are very friendly. Make sure your pond has ample biological filtration. Partial water changes in ponds are not as easy in ponds as it is in tanks. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. > Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. > > Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply > soon! > > > Desire' in Louisiana. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > > They get huge... > > > > Amber > > > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > >> > >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > >> > >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > >> with no issues. > >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > >> go dormant and not eat all winter. > >> > >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > >> the fall until the snow flies. > >> > >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > >> for years and years. > >> > >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > >> need to), here are a few pointers: > >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > >> your tank > >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > >> Koi are cold water fish. > >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > >> the Nitrogen cycle). > >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > >> > >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > >> them. Koi are very hardy. > >> > >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > >> Raccoon comes by. > >> > >> JD > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > >> <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi everyone, > >> > > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > >> one I make. > >> > > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > >> "Elle". > >> > > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > >> questions... > >> > > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > >> about 80 right now) > >> > > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > >> feeding her the summer diet? > >> > > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > >> move her intO? > >> > > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > >> being inside though, it will be different. > >> > > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > >> possible. > >> > > >> > Thanks in advance! > >> > > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52155	From: haecklers	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Does Warranty Really Matter?

There's a really cool fish store about an hour from me that has signs up that warn customers they have no warranty. It used to be kind of legitimate, but I think but over time they started getting really poor quality fish - so that you could look in the tanks and see sick fish in almost every tank. So then it became buyer-beware! They do have a huge variety, but most hobbyists who've been around awhile know not to shop there unless it's a really special fish and they're willing to quarantine and medicate it and risk it dying. I'm pretty sure that's where my camallanus outbreak came from. And the ich that wiped out 2 whole spawns of my fry (got contaminated from water changes using the same siphon!) Just my personal opinion, it's much better to buy from aquabid or stores that sell locally-bred fish. I've never had a fish from either of those sources turn out to be sick or have parasites. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >        Hello: >    I don't see anything wrong that would keep me from shopping there.  Even though there is no warranty, I've found that often when there is a "legitimate" problem, many stores (warranty or not) will try to work things out.  If the cichlids are good looking and feeding (usually they'll feed them to show you) I wouldn't have a problem in buying them.  Just my two cents worth. >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > From: Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 9:15 PM > Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter? > > >   > Shop elsewhere. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 1:39 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Does Warranty Really Matter? > > As I have mentioned before, I try to use local businesses when possible. > > There is a new specialty pet store that started up in our town that has some > really beautiful Cichlids. My concern is that they have no warranty > whatsoever. They state "we can't offer a warranty because we don't know what > kind of environment they are being put into." Now this is completely true, > and I see their point. However, there are two other chain pet stores that > offer 2 week and 1 month warranties each, no matter how uneducated their > customers are. I have personally utilized the warranties on several > occasions for my 20 gallon community tank. > > So what's the common consensus on the warranty rule? Should I trust this > place? I hate to blow $4-$15 a pop on potentially unhealthy fish. > > Thanks, > JD > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52156	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

There's a great way to build a bog filter for ponds using a waterfall pan, PVC, and gravel. Check Nelson's Watergardens for directions. On another note, I've heard not to run my pump in below freezing temps so that that water in the bottom stays warmer than circulating the water and cooling the pond overall. I've done this the last two winters and the fish and turtles did fine. Scott Deer Park, TX Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:41:04 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Koi will eat right out of your hand. They are very friendly. Make sure your pond has ample biological filtration. Partial water changes in ponds are not as easy in ponds as it is in tanks. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. > Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. > > Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply > soon! > > > Desire' in Louisiana. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > > They get huge... > > > > Amber > > > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > >> > >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > >> > >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > >> with no issues. > >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > >> go dormant and not eat all winter. > >> > >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > >> the fall until the snow flies. > >> > >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > >> for years and years. > >> > >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > >> need to), here are a few pointers: > >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > >> your tank > >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > >> Koi are cold water fish. > >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > >> the Nitrogen cycle). > >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > >> > >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > >> them. Koi are very hardy. > >> > >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > >> Raccoon comes by. > >> > >> JD > >> > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > >> <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi everyone, > >> > > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > >> one I make. > >> > > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > >> "Elle". > >> > > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > >> questions... > >> > > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > >> about 80 right now) > >> > > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > >> feeding her the summer diet? > >> > > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > >> move her intO? > >> > > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > >> being inside though, it will be different. > >> > > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > >> possible. > >> > > >> > Thanks in advance! > >> > > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > >> > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52157	From: Noura	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Thanks! 1e. <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/message/52106;_ylc=X3oDMTJydGU5cX ZpBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzg0OTUxNTcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDQyNzUyBG1zZ0lkAzUyMT A2BHNlYwNkbXNnBHNsawN2bXNnBHN0aW1lAzEzMTY2OTEyMDY-> Re: Changing filters question Posted by: "SIMMONDS JOHN" <mailto:simmonds.john@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20Changing%20filters%20q uestion> simmonds.john@... <http://profiles.yahoo.com/mrbushy2003> mrbushy2003 Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:29 am (PDT) Yes, that's right-test for nitrite & ammo, they are the critical ones to watch just now but generally you should be fine. Keep an eye on your NO3 [nitrate] as well through & after the transition period. John*<o)))< * On 22 September 2011 00:20, Noura < <mailto:n-taweel%40scs-net.org> n-taweel@...> wrote: > ** > > > > Thaks for the informative replies. > The media cannot be transferred into the new filter, there's no room inside > it, it's pretty small. (300 Litres/hour). > Anyway, I'll keep it for another week before removing the old one, that > will be about 16 days. > I do have the API master test kit to keep an eye on things. I suppose I > should be testing for Nitrite and ammonia, right? > > Noura > --- In <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > > > I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good > number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 > gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those > plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. > > > > I just don't change everything at once. > > > > Dora > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > > To: <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question > > > > > > > > Hi Noura, > > > > In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as > > the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established > > tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank > for > > about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. > > > > Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if > so > > you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed > > things up even more. > > > > Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. > > > > John > > > > On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > > > > ** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52158	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Bren, As promised some clips of my fish-as you would expect they never perform on cue so in this clip you can see Tiny calling me a liar & NOT picking up any gravel but shouting at me for food nonetheless! http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=Tiny.mp4 Next up is a very short clip of Marmalade poking his head out to get the food I'm holding-usually he is far more laid back then this so don't blink or you will miss him, the others all take turns afterwards but only Marmalade actually pokes his head out. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=Marmalade.mp4 Finally a more laid-back scene after the main lights have times out & the moonlight LEDs are on for an hour or so. I've just thrown in a small amount of marine seaweed pellets-these are like grains of sand but my lot love them as well as the 2 Plecos so everyone gets to forage around. This is great because not only do they have fun but it kicks any lying debris up into the water column & then into the filters so when I come to do a gravel vac there is barely anything there. The first 3 fish you see are my 3 silver male Comets-Apricot coming out of the tunnel meeting Blacktail & Buttercup. Tiny has a quick look in followed by Genie the big silver & red Sarassa. As the camera pans left you can see the dark shape of Marmalade grubbing around. Only 5 of my 6 Goldfish are permanent residents, the big Sarassa Comet came to me last year & is moving to my friend's 400 gallon pond next week. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 14:46, safirezprincess@... < safirezprincess@...> wrote: > ** > > > John > Tiny is a riot! And could you get a picture of marmalade, how cool that she > comes out of the water to hand feed! > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52159	From: Dora Smith	Date: 9/24/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

You had me thinking your little pirhanas take turns coming up for food, LOL! I wanted to see what sort of fish were these. Dora ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 24, 2011 7:59 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] silly question :) - "feeder goldfish" Hi Bren, As promised some clips of my fish-as you would expect they never perform on cue so in this clip you can see Tiny calling me a liar & NOT picking up any gravel but shouting at me for food nonetheless! http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=Tiny.mp4 Next up is a very short clip of Marmalade poking his head out to get the food I'm holding-usually he is far more laid back then this so don't blink or you will miss him, the others all take turns afterwards but only Marmalade actually pokes his head out. http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/mrbushy/?action=view¤t=Marmalade.mp4 Finally a more laid-back scene after the main lights have times out & the moonlight LEDs are on for an hour or so. I've just thrown in a small amount of marine seaweed pellets-these are like grains of sand but my lot love them as well as the 2 Plecos so everyone gets to forage around. This is great because not only do they have fun but it kicks any lying debris up into the water column & then into the filters so when I come to do a gravel vac there is barely anything there. The first 3 fish you see are my 3 silver male Comets-Apricot coming out of the tunnel meeting Blacktail & Buttercup. Tiny has a quick look in followed by Genie the big silver & red Sarassa. As the camera pans left you can see the dark shape of Marmalade grubbing around. Only 5 of my 6 Goldfish are permanent residents, the big Sarassa Comet came to me last year & is moving to my friend's 400 gallon pond next week. John*<o)))< * On 23 September 2011 14:46, safirezprincess@... < safirezprincess@...> wrote: > ** > > > John > Tiny is a riot! And could you get a picture of marmalade, how cool that she > comes out of the water to hand feed! > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52160	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/25/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi Scott, Many thanks for posting that, I had a look on the site you mentioned & found the .pdf file of the bog filter-an excellent article. For those interested: http://66.147.244.221/~nelsonwa/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Bog-Filter-Construction.pdf John*<o)))< * On 24 September 2011 21:48, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > There's a great way to build a bog filter for ponds using a waterfall pan, > PVC, and gravel. > > Check Nelson's Watergardens for directions. > > On another note, I've heard not to run my pump in below freezing temps so > that that water in the bottom stays warmer than circulating the water and > cooling the pond overall. I've done this the last two winters and the fish > and turtles did fine. > > Scott > Deer Park, TX > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:41:04 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > Koi will eat right out of your hand. They are very friendly. Make sure > your pond has ample biological filtration. Partial water changes in ponds > are not as easy in ponds as it is in tanks. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. > > Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. > > > > Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply > > soon! > > > > > > Desire' in Louisiana. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > > > They get huge... > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > > >> > > >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > >> > > >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > >> with no issues. > > >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > >> go dormant and not eat all winter. > > >> > > >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > >> the fall until the snow flies. > > >> > > >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > >> for years and years. > > >> > > >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > >> need to), here are a few pointers: > > >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > >> your tank > > >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > >> Koi are cold water fish. > > >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > >> the Nitrogen cycle). > > >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > >> > > >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > >> them. Koi are very hardy. > > >> > > >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > >> Raccoon comes by. > > >> > > >> JD > > >> > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > >> <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi everyone, > > >> > > > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > >> one I make. > > >> > > > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > >> "Elle". > > >> > > > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > >> questions... > > >> > > > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > >> about 80 right now) > > >> > > > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > >> feeding her the summer diet? > > >> > > > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > >> move her intO? > > >> > > > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > >> being inside though, it will be different. > > >> > > > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > >> possible. > > >> > > > >> > Thanks in advance! > > >> > > > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > >> > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52161	From: jasadell	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Changing filters question

Be sure to test for Nitrates as well. That is at the end of the Nitrogen Cycle, and even though some live plants will reduce Nitrates somewhat, partial water changes is the way to reduce Nitrates naturally. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Noura" <n-taweel@...> wrote: > > > Thaks for the informative replies. > The media cannot be transferred into the new filter, there's no room inside it, it's pretty small. (300 Litres/hour). > Anyway, I'll keep it for another week before removing the old one, that will be about 16 days. > I do have the API master test kit to keep an eye on things. I suppose I should be testing for Nitrite and ammonia, right? > > Noura > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > I have a 20 gallon, with 15 small fish in it. I like to look at a good number of fish. I have two filters, each capable of filtering a 10 to 20 gallon tank. To each I added an extra polyfil filter pad, and a bag of those plastic pebbles intended to add biological filtration to filters. > > > > I just don't change everything at once. > > > > Dora > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2011 7:11 AM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Changing filters question > > > > > > > > Hi Noura, > > > > In all probability your new filter will be 'seeded' in just a few days as > > the good bacteria will colonise everything very quickly in an established > > tank. However you would do well to leave them both running in your tank for > > about 2 weeks just to be on the safe side. > > > > Is the media on your old filter compatible with that on the new one? if so > > you could actually put some of the old media into the new filter to speed > > things up even more. > > > > Check your water parameters daily during the transition period. > > > > John > > > > On 21 September 2011 10:02, Noura <n-taweel@> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Hi group! > > > II've been using a bubble up filter for my planted 6G guppy fry tank. > > > A few days ago, I purchased a small internal power filter for that tank, > > > and it's been running nicely along with the old filter. > > > How long should I wait before completly removing the old filter to make > > > sure I won't cause cycling hazards on my fish? > > > The tank, is well populated with fry and a couple of cories. And it's > > > heavily planted. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Noura > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52162	From: jasadell	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I have listened to a lot of great advice from folks in this group (thanks). The Oscars and the Pictus were still under warranty, so I was able to return them to the store and get cash back/exchange for some new ones. Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. I have a few more questions: * My well water is within the acceptable pH (8.3) and hardness (300) parameters with no additional conditioning. How often should I be changing the water and what % of capacity. Is 20% weekly enough/too much? I have a standard over the back type filter with removable filter cartridges. * Are Cichlid Flakes (e.g. Tetra Cichlid) sufficient nutrition? I do not want to mess with live feeding if I don't need to. * Is 78 degrees the proper temperature to keep the tank at? * Are Ruby Reds compatible with Yellow Labs and Acei? * Someone posted that there are two types of Acei. Mine are mostly blue with darker vertical stripes and have yellow-tipped fins. Which type is this? Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52163	From: Ray	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, Your well water is perfect for these Lake Malawi fish, but not for many other fish. Since you've added several more, make sure to include some rockwork in your tank for them -- at least having one or two more cave areas than you have fish, but the more crevaces the better -- and with "back-door" exits to allow for quick retreats. Normally, weekly PWC's (partial water changes) asre recommended with all fishes. As you only have 7 smallish-size juveniles in a 55 gallon tank at present, you wouldn't need to do much more that 15% PWC's weekly. As they grow, and/or as you add more fish, you'll need to increase the size of these PWC's. Tetra Cichlid Flakes may be used in between other feedings -- and then, sparingly -- but as this food is formulated more for West African and Cetral & South American Cichlids it should not be used as a staple food for these fishes; the protein content is too high. You need to get a food like Tetra Veggie Flakes. O.S.I or Ocean Nutrition Spirulina Flakes, Tetra Algae Vegetable Enhanced Crisps, etc., which have a lower protein content and which is more suited to these fishes' needs -- especially for your Mbuna (your Pseudotropheus acei). As the Yellow Labs are primarily insectivors, you can include frozen bloodworms and even frozen Mysis shrimp as some of the meals, but again, use sparingly so as not to give the Mbuna too rich a diet of protein. A temperature of 78 o is fine. Yes, Ruby Reds, an enhanced variety of Aulonocara stuartgranti Chipoka, referred to as Aulonocara 'Rubescens', are compatible with your two present Malawi species. It's one of the more open-water sand dwellers that don't need a quite as restricted protein diet, and may be fed a bit more bloodworms and shrimp -- and Tetra Cichlid Flakes than the Acei, but of course as this latter species will also be eating the same foods you still need to limit these foods. A varied diet is always the best way to go, but keeping in mind in your case, not to overfeed on protein rich foods. Going by the photo you made available via your link, I've already told you several days ago that you have Ps. acei, as I referred to above. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > > I have listened to a lot of great advice from folks in this group (thanks). The Oscars and the Pictus were still under warranty, so I was able to return them to the store and get cash back/exchange for some new ones. Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. I have a few more questions: > > * My well water is within the acceptable pH (8.3) and hardness (300) parameters with no additional conditioning. How often should I be changing the water and what % of capacity. Is 20% weekly enough/too much? I have a standard over the back type filter with removable filter cartridges. > > * Are Cichlid Flakes (e.g. Tetra Cichlid) sufficient nutrition? I do not want to mess with live feeding if I don't need to. > > * Is 78 degrees the proper temperature to keep the tank at? > > * Are Ruby Reds compatible with Yellow Labs and Acei? > > * Someone posted that there are two types of Acei. Mine are mostly blue with darker vertical stripes and have yellow-tipped fins. Which type is this? > > Thanks, > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52164	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/26/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Ray had good advice, I just wanted to add one little tidbit. Those "over the back" type filters with the removable cartridges will tell you in the instructions to remove the cartridges and replace them. You don't need to replace them unless you use medications (the carbon in the filter pads will remove most medications), and if you don't use medications because your fish are healthy then you shouldn't have to remove that filter pad. I've used them until the pad itself starts to fall apart and the carbon falls out (which took nearly a year to happen). Just make sure to rinse it in your removed tank water (I use a 5 gallon bucket). So once a week take the cartridges out and rinse them in your bucket of tank water, then do your 15-20% water change/gravel vacuuming and refill. You don't need to clean ALL your gravel at once either. You can typically do 1/3-1/2 of the gravel and then clean the rest at your next water changes. If you clean too much at once it can throw off your tank parameters too much and cause stress on your fish (which can then lead to death). How long ago did you set this tank up? Did you cycle it prior to adding fish, or did you add water and fish right away? Thanks, Amber On 9/26/2011 8:35 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > I have listened to a lot of great advice from folks in this group > (thanks). The Oscars and the Pictus were still under warranty, so I > was able to return them to the store and get cash back/exchange for > some new ones. Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for > now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel > safer now about this mix. > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I > know for sure can exist together. I have a few more questions: > > * My well water is within the acceptable pH (8.3) and hardness (300) > parameters with no additional conditioning. How often should I be > changing the water and what % of capacity. Is 20% weekly enough/too > much? I have a standard over the back type filter with removable > filter cartridges. > > * Are Cichlid Flakes (e.g. Tetra Cichlid) sufficient nutrition? I do > not want to mess with live feeding if I don't need to. > > * Is 78 degrees the proper temperature to keep the tank at? > > * Are Ruby Reds compatible with Yellow Labs and Acei? > > * Someone posted that there are two types of Acei. Mine are mostly > blue with darker vertical stripes and have yellow-tipped fins. Which > type is this? > > Thanks, > JD > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52165	From: haecklers	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Snapping Turtle hatchling!

In Pennsylvania snapping turtles aren't protected by state law and people can "harvest" up to 15 a day as long as they don't sell them. I know this because yesterday while on my walk I found a bunch of snapping turtle hatchlings on a running trail. One was injured and I took it home and it quickly became the "pet of the day" in my house. Did you know they have to learn how to swim? It's so funny to watch! The first day he could only float - he just now figured out to blow out some air bubbles then he can sink. They are, evidently fully aquatic tho they do appreciate some way to get out of the water and bask from time to time. They can live in a large aquarium for about 2 years then need larger quarters. Many people say they make great pets as babies, and become pretty tame. I also read many snapping turtle hatchlings are collected in the US or raised on farms to be exported as babies to China where they raise them to adults for turtle soup.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52166	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Thanks Ray for your expertise as usual! I had no idea about the high protein. Tetra Algae is readily available, thanks for the tip. Regarding the frozen bloodworms, I think I have seen freeze-dried bloodworms. Is this sufficient? I'd prefer not to keep live food, or have to store fish food in a freezer. Few more questions :) I'm planning to add several more fish. I'd really like as many as I can safely get in the 55 gallon. Should I follow the 1" (full-grown) per gallon rule? How often should I be feeding them this varied diet? I purchased the tank as a kit that included a filter that I'm sure was just sufficient for a community 55 gallon tank. I'm willing to add a second filter if needed. Do I need to, and what total filtering capacity should I plan for? Thanks again! JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > > Your well water is perfect for these Lake Malawi fish, but not for many other fish. Since you've added several more, make sure to include some rockwork in your tank for them -- at least having one or two more cave areas than you have fish, but the more crevaces the better -- and with "back-door" exits to allow for quick retreats. > > Normally, weekly PWC's (partial water changes) asre recommended with all fishes. As you only have 7 smallish-size juveniles in a 55 gallon tank at present, you wouldn't need to do much more that 15% PWC's weekly. As they grow, and/or as you add more fish, you'll need to increase the size of these PWC's. > > Tetra Cichlid Flakes may be used in between other feedings -- and then, sparingly -- but as this food is formulated more for West African and Cetral & South American Cichlids it should not be used as a staple food for these fishes; the protein content is too high. You need to get a food like Tetra Veggie Flakes. O.S.I or Ocean Nutrition Spirulina Flakes, Tetra Algae Vegetable Enhanced Crisps, etc., which have a lower protein content and which is more suited to these fishes' needs -- especially for your Mbuna (your Pseudotropheus acei). As the Yellow Labs are primarily insectivors, you can include frozen bloodworms and even frozen Mysis shrimp as some of the meals, but again, use sparingly so as not to give the Mbuna too rich a diet of protein. > > A temperature of 78 o is fine. > > Yes, Ruby Reds, an enhanced variety of Aulonocara stuartgranti Chipoka, referred to as Aulonocara 'Rubescens', are compatible with your two present Malawi species. It's one of the more open-water sand dwellers that don't need a quite as restricted protein diet, and may be fed a bit more bloodworms and shrimp -- and Tetra Cichlid Flakes than the Acei, but of course as this latter species will also be eating the same foods you still need to limit these foods. A varied diet is always the best way to go, but keeping in mind in your case, not to overfeed on protein rich foods. > > Going by the photo you made available via your link, I've already told you several days ago that you have Ps. acei, as I referred to above. > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52167	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Thanks Amber, I have been doing just that with the removable cartridges, so I'm glad to hear someone else has the same opinion on it. The tank was originally purchased to move goldfish from my koi pond into. The upkeep was way too much (goldfish in a tank is a bad idea... too much waste) and I ended up donating the goldfish (and the Koi from the pond) to the local school, which has a really nice koi pond. The good part about that is that the goldfish that were in there for about 2 years helped to get the bacteria colonized and the tank balanced. No ammonia or nitrites but the nitrates were through the roof! Once the fish were removed, I left the filter running, added a heater, and did 15% water changes about twice a week until the nitrates acceptable. I added three Cichlids, then 4 more a couple of weeks later. I haven't lose one of them yet, and they are very active and vibrant. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ray had good advice, I just wanted to add one little tidbit. > Those "over the back" type filters with the removable cartridges will > tell you in the instructions to remove the cartridges and replace them. > You don't need to replace them unless you use medications (the carbon in > the filter pads will remove most medications), and if you don't use > medications because your fish are healthy then you shouldn't have to > remove that filter pad. I've used them until the pad itself starts to > fall apart and the carbon falls out (which took nearly a year to > happen). Just make sure to rinse it in your removed tank water (I use a > 5 gallon bucket). So once a week take the cartridges out and rinse them > in your bucket of tank water, then do your 15-20% water change/gravel > vacuuming and refill. You don't need to clean ALL your gravel at once > either. You can typically do 1/3-1/2 of the gravel and then clean the > rest at your next water changes. If you clean too much at once it can > throw off your tank parameters too much and cause stress on your fish > (which can then lead to death). > > How long ago did you set this tank up? Did you cycle it prior to adding > fish, or did you add water and fish right away? > > Thanks, > Amber > > On 9/26/2011 8:35 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > > > I have listened to a lot of great advice from folks in this group > > (thanks). The Oscars and the Pictus were still under warranty, so I > > was able to return them to the store and get cash back/exchange for > > some new ones. Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for > > now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel > > safer now about this mix. > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I > > know for sure can exist together. I have a few more questions: > > > > * My well water is within the acceptable pH (8.3) and hardness (300) > > parameters with no additional conditioning. How often should I be > > changing the water and what % of capacity. Is 20% weekly enough/too > > much? I have a standard over the back type filter with removable > > filter cartridges. > > > > * Are Cichlid Flakes (e.g. Tetra Cichlid) sufficient nutrition? I do > > not want to mess with live feeding if I don't need to. > > > > * Is 78 degrees the proper temperature to keep the tank at? > > > > * Are Ruby Reds compatible with Yellow Labs and Acei? > > > > * Someone posted that there are two types of Acei. Mine are mostly > > blue with darker vertical stripes and have yellow-tipped fins. Which > > type is this? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52168	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

It sounds like the tank was probably already cycled, but with the gap between the goldfish/koi and your new cichlids may have caused a mini-cycle. I wish I could have a cichlid tank like yours, but I have very soft water in my location, I would have to work to keep the pH higher than 7.5. Maybe some day though. Cichlids have always been one of my favorite types of freshwater fish (as well as Loaches). Good luck with your tank, sounds like you're off to a great start. Don't worry about asking any questions, even ones you think might be 'stupid' questions. All of us were once new to fishkeeping and have learned a lot through years of patience and practice. I still learn new stuff all the time. Amber On 9/27/2011 5:41 AM, jasadell wrote: > > Thanks Amber, > > I have been doing just that with the removable cartridges, so I'm glad > to hear someone else has the same opinion on it. > > The tank was originally purchased to move goldfish from my koi pond > into. The upkeep was way too much (goldfish in a tank is a bad idea... > too much waste) and I ended up donating the goldfish (and the Koi from > the pond) to the local school, which has a really nice koi pond. The > good part about that is that the goldfish that were in there for about > 2 years helped to get the bacteria colonized and the tank balanced. No > ammonia or nitrites but the nitrates were through the roof! Once the > fish were removed, I left the filter running, added a heater, and did > 15% water changes about twice a week until the nitrates acceptable. I > added three Cichlids, then 4 more a couple of weeks later. I haven't > lose one of them yet, and they are very active and vibrant. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Ray had good advice, I just wanted to add one little tidbit. > > Those "over the back" type filters with the removable cartridges will > > tell you in the instructions to remove the cartridges and replace them. > > You don't need to replace them unless you use medications (the > carbon in > > the filter pads will remove most medications), and if you don't use > > medications because your fish are healthy then you shouldn't have to > > remove that filter pad. I've used them until the pad itself starts to > > fall apart and the carbon falls out (which took nearly a year to > > happen). Just make sure to rinse it in your removed tank water (I use a > > 5 gallon bucket). So once a week take the cartridges out and rinse them > > in your bucket of tank water, then do your 15-20% water change/gravel > > vacuuming and refill. You don't need to clean ALL your gravel at once > > either. You can typically do 1/3-1/2 of the gravel and then clean the > > rest at your next water changes. If you clean too much at once it can > > throw off your tank parameters too much and cause stress on your fish > > (which can then lead to death). > > > > How long ago did you set this tank up? Did you cycle it prior to adding > > fish, or did you add water and fish right away? > > > > Thanks, > > Amber > > > > On 9/26/2011 8:35 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I have listened to a lot of great advice from folks in this group > > > (thanks). The Oscars and the Pictus were still under warranty, so I > > > was able to return them to the store and get cash back/exchange for > > > some new ones. Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for > > > now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel > > > safer now about this mix. > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I > > > know for sure can exist together. I have a few more questions: > > > > > > * My well water is within the acceptable pH (8.3) and hardness (300) > > > parameters with no additional conditioning. How often should I be > > > changing the water and what % of capacity. Is 20% weekly enough/too > > > much? I have a standard over the back type filter with removable > > > filter cartridges. > > > > > > * Are Cichlid Flakes (e.g. Tetra Cichlid) sufficient nutrition? I do > > > not want to mess with live feeding if I don't need to. > > > > > > * Is 78 degrees the proper temperature to keep the tank at? > > > > > > * Are Ruby Reds compatible with Yellow Labs and Acei? > > > > > > * Someone posted that there are two types of Acei. Mine are mostly > > > blue with darker vertical stripes and have yellow-tipped fins. Which > > > type is this? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52169	From: jasadell	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Thanks Amber. I'll post a photo or two after I get enough Cichlids in there so that it looks nice. I've had community fish on and off for the past 30 years or so. I like Loaches as well. We have a 20 gallon community tank as well that has a couple of Black Kuhli Loaches in it (among other things). They have a lot of personality. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > It sounds like the tank was probably already cycled, but with the gap > between the goldfish/koi and your new cichlids may have caused a mini-cycle. > I wish I could have a cichlid tank like yours, but I have very soft > water in my location, I would have to work to keep the pH higher than 7.5. > Maybe some day though. Cichlids have always been one of my favorite > types of freshwater fish (as well as Loaches). > Good luck with your tank, sounds like you're off to a great start. > Don't worry about asking any questions, even ones you think might be > 'stupid' questions. All of us were once new to fishkeeping and have > learned a lot through years of patience and practice. I still learn new > stuff all the time. > > Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52170	From: The_ONE	Date: 9/27/2011
Subject: Re: Snapping Turtle hatchling!

In Georgia they are protected, one day I found one in a water discharge of a big pond and I take her out from the brutal water current. Those turtles are pretty interesting, alto I'm impressed the size that they can grow... Of course I leave her in the secure area of that pond...   EFRAIN MONTANEZ HIRALDO Graphic Design & Illustration for Media ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 11:19 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Snapping Turtle hatchling!   In Pennsylvania snapping turtles aren't protected by state law and people can "harvest" up to 15 a day as long as they don't sell them. I know this because yesterday while on my walk I found a bunch of snapping turtle hatchlings on a running trail. One was injured and I took it home and it quickly became the "pet of the day" in my house. Did you know they have to learn how to swim? It's so funny to watch! The first day he could only float - he just now figured out to blow out some air bubbles then he can sink. They are, evidently fully aquatic tho they do appreciate some way to get out of the water and bask from time to time. They can live in a large aquarium for about 2 years then need larger quarters. Many people say they make great pets as babies, and become pretty tame. I also read many snapping turtle hatchlings are collected in the US or raised on farms to be exported as babies to China where they raise them to adults for turtle soup. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52171	From: haecklers	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: New fish treatment?

Do any of you prophetically treat new fish before adding them to a new aquarium? I'm asking because I'm setting up the snapping turtle tank and I picked up some rosy reds for it. I don't want them to infect the tank with any sorts of disease or parasites. Right now I have 10 of them in a 2 gallon tank with a bag buddy tablet and daily 90% water changes. I want them to live with some guppies I have, and I don't want the guppies to get infected with whatever the rosy reds have. We got 5 earlier for my son's crayfish tank, and one died the first day (didn't look so good right off), another got an infection in its tail and died a few days later. The last 3 seem ok. They didn't get any sort of treatment because I wasn't worried about them infecting the crayfish. These new ones look ok except at least one of them has lumps on it and they're very skinny so they may have parasites (or they just haven't been fed in awhile?). I also don't want them to contaminate my fish-keeping supplies - nets, siphon tubes, buckets, etc. Right now I'm being very careful but with kids, accidents seem to happen. I have on hand the bag buddies, which have methylene blue in them, also levamisole, praziquantel, metronidazole, and Jungle Fungus Eliminator. Also, how long do you think I should keep the rosy reds in the quarantine tank? I don't want to contaminate the new tank but at the same time don't want them to suffer from being overcrowded. I have plenty of the bag buddies so I can add one daily after the water changes to kind of help them being so crowded.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52172	From: jasadell	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Well, I have my original Acei, and then I purchased two more at a different store a couple of weeks later. The original Acei and the two new Acei look a bit different. The original one is older and larger (about 2") and is nearly solid dark blue with dark vertical stripes and just a hint of yellow on the edge of the (dorsal?) fin. The two new younger ones (about 1") are a lighter blue, and have vibrant yellow fins and tail. Perhaps they all just change color as they mature. Someone here posted that there is one particular type of Acei that is very aggressive. As of now all three Acei are the most passive fish in the tank. JD > > Going by the photo you made available via your link, I've already told you several days ago that you have Ps. acei, as I referred to above. > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52173	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/28/2011
Subject: Re: New fish treatment?

Hi, Sorry to hear you are having some bad luck with your new fish. I would recommend routinely quarantine any fish for at least a month because unless you are sure of it's history it is far too risky to take the shop's word for it that they have quarantined it & even if they have there is every chance that it has been in tank fed by a common supply for all the shops tanks. The 90% water changes sounds a great regime-you will be moving the fish constantly to clean & therefore safe water very similar to hospital tanks on the tub-to-tub method. I have not come across Bag Buddies before, I don't think we have them in the UK but looking them up on Google they seem to be broad spectrum cure-all for new stock. I am always wary of anything like this & would opt, instead for a well aerated, slightly salted tank [assuming your fish can tolerate salt] because in my opinion the less additives we add the better as there is always a trade-off with using something like this. I can't say how large a tank you would want to use for your fish because I have no experience with that type but I'm sure someone on here can help with specifics. John*<o)))< * On 28 September 2011 15:12, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > Do any of you prophetically treat new fish before adding them to a new > aquarium? > > I'm asking because I'm setting up the snapping turtle tank and I picked up > some rosy reds for it. I don't want them to infect the tank with any sorts > of disease or parasites. > > Right now I have 10 of them in a 2 gallon tank with a bag buddy tablet and > daily 90% water changes. > > I want them to live with some guppies I have, and I don't want the guppies > to get infected with whatever the rosy reds have. > > We got 5 earlier for my son's crayfish tank, and one died the first day > (didn't look so good right off), another got an infection in its tail and > died a few days later. The last 3 seem ok. They didn't get any sort of > treatment because I wasn't worried about them infecting the crayfish. These > new ones look ok except at least one of them has lumps on it and they're > very skinny so they may have parasites (or they just haven't been fed in > awhile?). > > I also don't want them to contaminate my fish-keeping supplies - nets, > siphon tubes, buckets, etc. Right now I'm being very careful but with kids, > accidents seem to happen. > > I have on hand the bag buddies, which have methylene blue in them, also > levamisole, praziquantel, metronidazole, and Jungle Fungus Eliminator. > > Also, how long do you think I should keep the rosy reds in the quarantine > tank? I don't want to contaminate the new tank but at the same time don't > want them to suffer from being overcrowded. I have plenty of the bag buddies > so I can add one daily after the water changes to kind of help them being so > crowded. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52174	From: Ray	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, Even though your older 2" Acei is far from being mature, as any male Mbuna gets older its colors deepen more towards the coloration of what a dominant grown male would look like -- and you probably have a male. Younger Mbuna juveniles (males and females) almost always show the coloration of how the female appears. There is something in your description of your original Acei which stands out, and that is, that this fish is almost a solid dark blue. If you see no yellow in the caudal fin (tail) of this larger fish, but instead this fin is a lighter blue edged in white, it could be a different location of the species. The two smaller ones undoubtedly will grow to have a rear portion of their dorsal fins retain some yellow as well as their caudal fin, but these fins will fill in also with some blue. Yet, depending upon their location where this strain was originally derived from, some yellow should still remain even though it won't be a solid-vibrant yellow. Ps. acei found at Msuli and at Luwala Reef are colored like your two smaller fish. Unless your larger fish has at least some yellow in it's caudal, it's possible that it's predecessors came from Ngara or Karonga. Of course it's always best to raise only fish of one location of a species together in a tank as it's hard to sell or give away fish that have mixed or uncertain location origins. This is but one reason why the hobbyist should plan on buying all of the fish one intends to raise, at one time, instead of buying fish at different times at different stores. This would also ensure that the fish would all be starting out at the same size instead of some being only half the size of others -- which would be a disadvatage to them in fending for themselves against larger and more aggressive fish. I see by your remark, that you're aware of there being different "types" of Acei when you mentioned seeing a post that one is very aggressive. While breeding two different locations of a species is not really hybridizing -- since it's all one species -- still, the buyers prefer to obtain fish that they know will all turn out to look like fish from only one certain location. As a whole, most locations of Ps. acei are only moderately aggressive, but certain locations can be very aggressive. Case in point would be to bring up the beautiful but extremely aggressive location of Ps. elongatus from Nkata Bay -- the original collecting site for this species. Fortunately, other locations of this species are not as aggressive. When I was importing them, this was the only species that came in with every one of the fish having only half (or less) a caudel fin left -- and these fish were temporarily mildly tranquilized to help keep them "calm" during transit. I would remind you though, that even though your Acei are quite passive at this stage, any aggression they may show later on comes with growth and maturity. Hopefully, you have one of the milder locations. While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Well, I have my original Acei, and then I purchased two more at a different store a couple of weeks later. The original Acei and the two new Acei look a bit different. The original one is older and larger (about 2") and is nearly solid dark blue with dark vertical stripes and just a hint of yellow on the edge of the (dorsal?) fin. The two new younger ones (about 1") are a lighter blue, and have vibrant yellow fins and tail. Perhaps they all just change color as they mature. Someone here posted that there is one particular type of Acei that is very aggressive. As of now all three Acei are the most passive fish in the tank. > > JD > > > > Going by the photo you made available via your link, I've already told you several days ago that you have Ps. acei, as I referred to above. > > > > Ray > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52175	From: jasadell	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

This is one of those little facts that is a complete contrast to a community tank, where it is encouraged to only purchase 2 or 3 at a time. It's also not a fact that your everyday pet store warns you about (there are many of those types of facts). Thanks again Ray, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: "... the hobbyist should plan on buying all of the fish one intends to raise, at one time, instead of buying fish at different times at different stores."

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52176	From: Ray	Date: 9/29/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, Buying your 6 or 7 fish of any one Malawi Cichlid species you intend to maintain is not necessarily a universally recommended thing to do, but it is for those hobbyist not yet thast familiar with these fishes even though it may mean that there's the chance you'd possibly be getting all brothers and sisters. Still, at least you'd know they're all the same size and all the same species and/or location. For those hobbyists having the resources to be able to obtain addition specimems of similar size and same location at any time in the future, these people may of course be able to disregard this suggestion as it would be of no consequence to them. I would add to this even for more advanced hobbyists, that when one is obtaining a group of of a species of adult fish, it's much easier to intoduce such a group (of 7 or so) of fish at one time. Adding individuals later necessitates moving the rockwork around enough to disorient the original fish so that they lose their sense of territory. This gives the new fish an equal chance of finding their niche uncontested, although original fish always have an advantage of being the earliest inhabitants which can pose a danger to the newest ones when working with notoriously aggressive fishes. It's usually best to start them all off on the same footing -- and at the same time. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > This is one of those little facts that is a complete contrast to a community tank, where it is encouraged to only purchase 2 or 3 at a time. It's also not a fact that your everyday pet store warns you about (there are many of those types of facts). > > Thanks again Ray, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > "... the hobbyist should plan on buying all of the fish one intends to raise, at one time, instead of buying fish at different times at different stores." >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52177	From: jasadell	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)

Boy, loading the aquarium with so much weight in rock (let alone the water) makes me nervous, even if it is Texas Holy Rock. I know a 55 gallon is not that large compared to some of the larger aquariums available, but the aquarium stand that I have for it only mainly supports the bottom edges of the aquarium, with one crossbar in the middle. If I open the cabinet and look underneath, I can see nearly all of the glass bottom. I guess I'd like a little reassurance that this is safe before I start piling rocks in there. Regarding Texas Holy Rock, I Googled it to see what it looks like. If it really looks like this http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/8654/1.jpg_5ef92f6b5f.jpg that looks very cool and I would love to find some. Is it relatively lightweight? Thanks again! JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ... > While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52178	From: Ray	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)

Yes, that's the stuff, as shown on the link. As you see even by the pic, it's being used for Malawi Cichlids here. You need to keep in mind that water weighs 8.3 lbs. per gallon -- and that while rock weighs more, for every piece of rock you add to the tank it's displacing an equal volume of water. So that's all the less water that the tank will be holding. Besides, larger tanks have tempered glass for their bottoms, much stronger than regular plate glass. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Boy, loading the aquarium with so much weight in rock (let alone the water) makes me nervous, even if it is Texas Holy Rock. I know a 55 gallon is not that large compared to some of the larger aquariums available, but the aquarium stand that I have for it only mainly supports the bottom edges of the aquarium, with one crossbar in the middle. If I open the cabinet and look underneath, I can see nearly all of the glass bottom. I guess I'd like a little reassurance that this is safe before I start piling rocks in there. > > Regarding Texas Holy Rock, I Googled it to see what it looks like. If it really looks like this http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/8654/1.jpg_5ef92f6b5f.jpg that looks very cool and I would love to find some. Is it relatively lightweight? > > Thanks again! > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > ... > > While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52179	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)

Hi JD, I know what you mean about the strength of your tank glass even though as Ray says, it will be made to withstand greater stress. If you want peace of mind then cut a sheet of quarter-inch plywood to the exact size of your tank base & put that between your tank & the stand, then you can sleep easy! John*<o)))< * On 30 September 2011 17:53, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > Boy, loading the aquarium with so much weight in rock (let alone the water) > makes me nervous, even if it is Texas Holy Rock. I know a 55 gallon is not > that large compared to some of the larger aquariums available, but the > aquarium stand that I have for it only mainly supports the bottom edges of > the aquarium, with one crossbar in the middle. If I open the cabinet and > look underneath, I can see nearly all of the glass bottom. I guess I'd like > a little reassurance that this is safe before I start piling rocks in there. > > Regarding Texas Holy Rock, I Googled it to see what it looks like. If it > really looks like this > http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/8654/1.jpg_5ef92f6b5f.jpgthat looks very cool and I would love to find some. Is it relatively > lightweight? > > Thanks again! > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > ... > > While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that > this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion > of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means > "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the > southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close > to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need > to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of > the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used > what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's > weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. > > > > Ray > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52180	From: kuradi8	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)

How about something like this? http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3202491&lmdn=Size There are two on ebay (both used, both damaged) right now. http://www.ebay.com/itm/280744392374 http://www.ebay.com/itm/280744387441 If you want new, I THINK I saw them cheaper in person than online. Take one or two over to the empty tanks and see how they look in a 55g like yours before you commit. One of the reviews say that because they're so thick, they work better in 18" tanks than 12" ones. BTW, in case you don't already know, a 55g is really more like 45 gallons. Do the math: LxWxH (in inches) divided by 231 for gallons. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Boy, loading the aquarium with so much weight in rock (let alone the water) makes me nervous, even if it is Texas Holy Rock. I know a 55 gallon is not that large compared to some of the larger aquariums available, but the aquarium stand that I have for it only mainly supports the bottom edges of the aquarium, with one crossbar in the middle. If I open the cabinet and look underneath, I can see nearly all of the glass bottom. I guess I'd like a little reassurance that this is safe before I start piling rocks in there. > > Regarding Texas Holy Rock, I Googled it to see what it looks like. If it really looks like this http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/8654/1.jpg_5ef92f6b5f.jpg that looks very cool and I would love to find some. Is it relatively lightweight? > > Thanks again! > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > ... > > While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52181	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 9/30/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork)

It’s safe. I have 250 pounds in my 72” tank. Probably at least 100 pounds each in my 48” tanks. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 12:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility (Rockwork) Boy, loading the aquarium with so much weight in rock (let alone the water) makes me nervous, even if it is Texas Holy Rock. I know a 55 gallon is not that large compared to some of the larger aquariums available, but the aquarium stand that I have for it only mainly supports the bottom edges of the aquarium, with one crossbar in the middle. If I open the cabinet and look underneath, I can see nearly all of the glass bottom. I guess I'd like a little reassurance that this is safe before I start piling rocks in there. Regarding Texas Holy Rock, I Googled it to see what it looks like. If it really looks like this http://www.cichlids.com/uploads/tx_usercichlids/user_pics/8654/1.jpg_5ef92f6 b5f.jpg that looks very cool and I would love to find some. Is it relatively lightweight? Thanks again! JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ... > While in this discussion about Ps. acei, I also need to tell you that this species is one of the very few Mbuna which inhabits the upper portion of the aquarium. Most other Mbuna live up to their native name (Mbuna means "bottom dweller" in the African language of the people living along the southwestern shore of this lake in the country of Malawi) -- and live close to the rocks on the bottom of their tank. So, for this reason, you will need to build up your rockwork so that it reaches up near the upper reaches of the aquarium. To help limit the weight of this rockwork, many hobbyists used what is called "Texas Holy Rock," its loaded with holes which reduces it's weight and at the same time offers many nooks & crannies. > > Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52182	From: Ray	Date: 10/1/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, Freeze-dried bloodworms are not as nutritiousas frozen (thawed) bloodworms, but if you prefer not to store frozen fish foods, this would be the next best alternative for such a food. BTW, many hobbyists -- including myself -- devote a separate refrigerator/freezer in their fish rooms just for the storage of fish related items -- such as frozen foods in the freezer compartment and medications and foods in the refigerator part. Refrigeration of medications greatly extends the shelf life of them, allowing you to keep them on hand and useful much longer instead of having to replace them so often. This allows you to keep a "medicine chest" of the most useful meds on hand at all times when otherwise, the stores are usually closed just when you need them to get these medications. Dry foods such as flake, pellet, stick and wafer lose their vitamins within 3 months. This necessitates either constantly buying smaller and more expensive containers, or feeding the fish foods which no longer contain much vitamin value. Storing these foods in the freezer or at least in the refrigerator extends their shelf-life immensely to the point that you can buy 4 pound buckets of flake food and not have to worry about nutitional loss, not to mention the absolutely hugh cost savings on them per ounce when compared to 2 ounce containers. Now, getting back to these freeze-dried bloodworms -- as this food has been completely dehydrated, it will absorbed any moisture it comes in contact with -- but not immediately because of the cell membranes first needing to get wet to allow the transfer of water. If fish eat this food before it becomes re-hydrated (which most often occurs when just dropping it into the aquarium from the container) they can become bloated as this food absorbs moisture within the fishes' digestive system. You need to soak any freeze-dried food in a container of water first, before you feed it to the fish, to allow it to re-hydrate. I'm not really sure of what type of filter comes with you tank kit, but I'd assume it's some type of HOB (hang on back) filter. This should be adequate for a low to moderate bioload, although I don't know how many more fish you're going to add in total. You may want to consider a canister filter if you plan on having many more fish, but you should never exceed the bioload of what the tank will hold on its own, without any additional circulation and/or aeration. There may be a time when you have a power failure, and you could lose a whole tank of fish if it's stocked to a capacity dependant upon artificial aeration/circulation. The very unreliable 1" per gallon fish "rule" is only good for slender fish up to 3" in length. Beyond that, it's completely useless (and dangerous) to even attempt anything approximating it. As many of these Malawi Cichlids get much more than 3", I'd suggest ignoring it. A 6" long fish may have at least 4 X the bulk of a 3" fish, when considering the additional width and height. Your Ps. acei can easily average 5" to 6" when fully grown with some males reaching 7". The Yellow Labs will get between 4" and 5" and the Malawi Peacocks you asked about can average 5" to 6", so plan accordingly. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray for your expertise as usual! > > I had no idea about the high protein. Tetra Algae is readily available, thanks for the tip. Regarding the frozen bloodworms, I think I have seen freeze-dried bloodworms. Is this sufficient? I'd prefer not to keep live food, or have to store fish food in a freezer. > > Few more questions :) > > I'm planning to add several more fish. I'd really like as many as I can safely get in the 55 gallon. Should I follow the 1" (full-grown) per gallon rule? > > How often should I be feeding them this varied diet? > > I purchased the tank as a kit that included a filter that I'm sure was just sufficient for a community 55 gallon tank. I'm willing to add a second filter if needed. Do I need to, and what total filtering capacity should I plan for? > > Thanks again! > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > JD, > > > > Your well water is perfect for these Lake Malawi fish, but not for many other fish. Since you've added several more, make sure to include some rockwork in your tank for them -- at least having one or two more cave areas than you have fish, but the more crevaces the better -- and with "back-door" exits to allow for quick retreats. > > > > Normally, weekly PWC's (partial water changes) asre recommended with all fishes. As you only have 7 smallish-size juveniles in a 55 gallon tank at present, you wouldn't need to do much more that 15% PWC's weekly. As they grow, and/or as you add more fish, you'll need to increase the size of these PWC's. > > > > Tetra Cichlid Flakes may be used in between other feedings -- and then, sparingly -- but as this food is formulated more for West African and Cetral & South American Cichlids it should not be used as a staple food for these fishes; the protein content is too high. You need to get a food like Tetra Veggie Flakes. O.S.I or Ocean Nutrition Spirulina Flakes, Tetra Algae Vegetable Enhanced Crisps, etc., which have a lower protein content and which is more suited to these fishes' needs -- especially for your Mbuna (your Pseudotropheus acei). As the Yellow Labs are primarily insectivors, you can include frozen bloodworms and even frozen Mysis shrimp as some of the meals, but again, use sparingly so as not to give the Mbuna too rich a diet of protein. > > > > A temperature of 78 o is fine. > > > > Yes, Ruby Reds, an enhanced variety of Aulonocara stuartgranti Chipoka, referred to as Aulonocara 'Rubescens', are compatible with your two present Malawi species. It's one of the more open-water sand dwellers that don't need a quite as restricted protein diet, and may be fed a bit more bloodworms and shrimp -- and Tetra Cichlid Flakes than the Acei, but of course as this latter species will also be eating the same foods you still need to limit these foods. A varied diet is always the best way to go, but keeping in mind in your case, not to overfeed on protein rich foods. > > > > Going by the photo you made available via your link, I've already told you several days ago that you have Ps. acei, as I referred to above. > > > > Ray > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52183	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are currently in my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while they are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything bigger)? Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I just let the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or so if this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady folder.....pending approval. Advice, please..... Thanks tons, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52184	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

The fry can live together, but it will be harder for the young/small fry to find food, the bigger ones will shoo them away. I have the same problem, I just got rid of a bunch of juvenile BN pleco's to my LFS (I couldn't find them all, so there's still maybe 6 or so left in my 55 gallon), and mom/dad decided to have more babies. The new fry are already free swimming (I missed the egg laying), and roughly a half inch long already. So I'm now in a bigger hurry to get all the old fry out of my 55 gallon and off to the LFS. I have been temporarily housing the juveniles in a 10 gallon rubbermaid tub with a pre-cycled filter (that hangs on the 55 gallon). The water gets pretty dirty fast, so I do daily water changes on the tub. But this was the best way for me to do the transitioning before I take them to the LFS. I'd recommend moving as many of the larger fry to another tank until you are ready to take them to your LFS, as the competition for food will be tough with all those fry, and some may starve to death. On a side note my albino aeneus cory's also spawned (in that same tank), whatever I'm doing right they all like it! LOL. I also approved your photo's, they are reading for viewing. Amber On 10/2/2011 8:29 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last > spawn that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are > currently in my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into > a 20G grow out tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs > hatch out (while they are still wrigglers/before they become free > swimming). > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything > bigger)? Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or > should I just let the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were > spawned? > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or > so if this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > folder.....pending approval. > > Advice, please..... > > Thanks tons, > Clare > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52185	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of the more top of the line pond de-icers) I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- inside or out. Thanks! Desire' in Louisiana ----- Original Message ----- From: jasadell To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years with no issues. Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will go dormant and not eat all winter. If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in the fall until the snow flies. Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months for years and years. If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you need to), here are a few pointers: * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in your tank * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, Koi are cold water fish. * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of the Nitrogen cycle). * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it them. Koi are very hardy. BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or Raccoon comes by. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I make. > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her "Elle". > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some questions... > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right now) > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue feeding her the summer diet? > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to move her intO? > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being inside though, it will be different. > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. > > Thanks in advance! > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52186	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

OH and we don't have to worry about snow here. We don't get any! I have a pump/fountain that I run in the spring/summer, but not sure what you mean about a filter (pardon the ignorance- I'm assuming my pond fountain and filter are together?? I have to change a filter every so often on that..or are you referring to something in addition to that? Again, pardon the ignorance on my part. I'm very new to this and only want what is best, still learning a lot!) Desire' in Louisiana ----- Original Message ----- From: jasadell To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years with no issues. Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will go dormant and not eat all winter. If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in the fall until the snow flies. Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months for years and years. If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you need to), here are a few pointers: * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in your tank * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, Koi are cold water fish. * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of the Nitrogen cycle). * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it them. Koi are very hardy. BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or Raccoon comes by. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I make. > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her "Elle". > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some questions... > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right now) > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue feeding her the summer diet? > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to move her intO? > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being inside though, it will be different. > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. > > Thanks in advance! > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52187	From: Ray	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Desire', I'm not exactly sure how deep your pond is, mainly because you didn't say exactly how deep it is, but since you state it's "not quite 2 feet deep," I might guess it could be about 20" deep. In any case, while I'd like to see you put the $400 towards making the pond bigger, as your pond does freeze over, I'm sorry to say your pond is just too shallow to assure maintaining fish in a healthy state over the Winter without risk as in such a shallow pond there will be no thermocline. Thermocline is the division of a pond's temperature in the winter when it freezes over, above which is the extremely cold water that is subject to freezing at the surface and below which is the heavier, slightly warmer water which is more conducive to the well being of aquatic life. As the water cools off during Winter, it gets denser and thus heavier, down to a temperature of 39 o. Below 39 o, it gets less dense and thus lighter and tends to rise to the surface. The coldest water will be at the very surface where, if it's cold enough (below 32 o) it will freeze. You pond is too shallolw to allow for very much of a temperature difference between the surface and the bottom. When the top of your pond freezes over (or tends to freeze over) you fish would be subjected to a temperature very near 32 o (possibly 34 O or so) instead of closer to the 39 o of heavier water if the pond were deep enough to allow for such a temperature difference (thermocline). It is generally recommended for Koi ponds to be at least 3 feet deep, but the deeper the better -- 4 feet deep would be even better, only because it would allow for a warmer temperature at the bottom. The minimum depth for a Koi pond is 3 feet wherever it may freeze over in the winter, but even so, at only 3 feet, this would not allow for the full density/39 o temperature to occur. A depth of at least 6 feet is necessary for the pond's water column to allow for this full 39 o temperature (and maximum density) to occur at the bottom during Winter when the pond freezes over -- or when the surface reaches 32 o, even if the surface is artificially kept open by some device. Shallower water won't allolw for this full thermocline, but at least a partial one will take place. You needn't make your pond 6 feet deep though, as even this minimum 3 feet deep will allow for the bottom water to remain at no colder than 36 o to 37 o when the surface is at 32 o. These few degrees makes a hugh difference on the stress that the fish need to endure, and 4 o or 5 o above freezing is expotentially so much easier on the fish than subjecting it to 34 o -- which would result in a 20" deep pond. It needs to be kept in mind too, that the ground holds a specific temperature even in Winter, at any given depth, and the deeper you go in the ground the more stable and further from freezing the ground's temperature remains. This temperature is constantly being imparted to the pond's water the deeper the pond is. If you don't want to subject your fish to the very extremes of cold in this shallow pond, it would be best to bring it indoors. Keeping the ponds surface ice free in one small area will still have the remainder of the surface frozen when the weather becomes cold enough to freeze the surface. The suggestion of redirecting your filter's (fountain's) flow, may only be done safely in deep ponds. What is done at those times is to sink your fountain so that it's outlet is below the surface by about half a foot and with it still aimed upward, it will maintain an open hole in the ice when it freezes, allolwing for any noxious gas build ups to escape. If this is attempted in a shallow pond, the circulating water will have the bottom of the pond not much warmer than the surface at all. As it is, with less than 2 feet of water, it will be close to being uniformly 33 o, really too cold for the safety of the fish, even though some water gardeners do get away with it. I wouldn't want anything to happen to your Elle though, as it appears she's become quite the pet. The de-icer you mentioned -- actually, a pond heater -- cannot heat the entire pond; they are not designed to do so. They are used only to melt a circle of ice around them not much more than an inch or so out from their circumference, or just enough to keep a slight opening in the ice, again to permit any noxious gases to escape. Noxious gases trapped under ice are extremely more dangerous than any perceived lack of oxygen as it poisons the fish. These gases are generated by rotting vegetation and/or excess foods left over from the earlier periods of feeding, when the water was still warm enough to do so. So by this, it can be seen that a good pond cleaning is something that needs to be done for Winter, before it sets in -- and for you, this advice is for next season when you've enlarged the pond. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- inside or out. > > Thanks! > Desire' in Louisiana > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jasadell > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years with no issues. > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will go dormant and not eat all winter. > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in the fall until the snow flies. > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months for years and years. > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you need to), here are a few pointers: > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in your tank > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, Koi are cold water fish. > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of the Nitrogen cycle). > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it them. Koi are very hardy. > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or Raccoon comes by. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first one I make. > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her "Elle". > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some questions... > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its about 80 right now) > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue feeding her the summer diet? > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to move her intO? > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her being inside though, it will be different. > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care possible. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52188	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

I really appreciate all the advice! :-) What size pond is recommended for koi ? (Minimum) That way I will know what size Elle (and possibly two more buddies- yes, I agree, she does need a buddy...she had one when I first got her, but he got out the pond somehow and that's where I found him dead. :-( ) Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Hi Scott, Many thanks for posting that, I had a look on the site you mentioned & found the .pdf file of the bog filter-an excellent article. For those interested: http://66.147.244.221/~nelsonwa/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Bog-Filter-Construction.pdf John*<o)))< * On 24 September 2011 21:48, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > There's a great way to build a bog filter for ponds using a waterfall pan, > PVC, and gravel. > > Check Nelson's Watergardens for directions. > > On another note, I've heard not to run my pump in below freezing temps so > that that water in the bottom stays warmer than circulating the water and > cooling the pond overall. I've done this the last two winters and the fish > and turtles did fine. > > Scott > Deer Park, TX > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -----Original Message----- > From: "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:41:04 > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > Koi will eat right out of your hand. They are very friendly. Make sure > your pond has ample biological filtration. Partial water changes in ponds > are not as easy in ponds as it is in tanks. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. > > Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. > > > > Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply > > soon! > > > > > > Desire' in Louisiana. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@...> > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > > > They get huge... > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > > >> > > >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > >> > > >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > >> with no issues. > > >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > >> go dormant and not eat all winter. > > >> > > >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > >> the fall until the snow flies. > > >> > > >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > >> for years and years. > > >> > > >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > >> need to), here are a few pointers: > > >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > >> your tank > > >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > >> Koi are cold water fish. > > >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > >> the Nitrogen cycle). > > >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > >> > > >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > >> them. Koi are very hardy. > > >> > > >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > >> Raccoon comes by. > > >> > > >> JD > > >> > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > >> <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi everyone, > > >> > > > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > >> one I make. > > >> > > > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > >> "Elle". > > >> > > > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > >> questions... > > >> > > > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > >> about 80 right now) > > >> > > > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > >> feeding her the summer diet? > > >> > > > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > >> move her intO? > > >> > > > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > >> being inside though, it will be different. > > >> > > > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > >> possible. > > >> > > > >> > Thanks in advance! > > >> > > > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > >> > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52189	From: Ray	Date: 10/2/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

It is generally recommended to allow about 600 gallons for fish about 24", but as I'm sure you may know, Koi can easily get to or exceed 32". Because of their potential size, it's not unreasonable to allow up to 1000 gallons per Koi. Many water gardeners who first build a pond often regret later on not building it bigger when they had the chance. Pond liners can be added to, as there's a special double-sided rubber tape available to join two sections, but it's always best when the liner is used in one piece. When making it larger, keep in mind that you need to increase the depth to at least 3 feet. A pond 8 feet wide X 10 feet long X 3 1/2 feet deep would be almost 2100 gallons. One 9 feet X 13 feet x 3 1/2 feet would be just a touch over 3000 gallons. A greater depth will also help prevent predators such a Blue Herons from grabbing your fish. Do not have shallow sloping sides either, as this will allow racoons and herons to wade into the water to more easily reach your fish. Instead, make the sides more towards verticle, so that the edges drop off rather soon. This will help prevent any predator from gaining access to the fish. At the bottom, build several shelters for the fish to hide under, using rocks -- or two plastic milk crates -- with a large piece of flagstone on top, between them. While such a large pond may seem like your fish will get lost in it < g >, once they get to about 14" or 15" or so, they can easily grow 6 inches in one season. Koi are very fast growing fish. When figuring the size of a new pond liner, include the width by the length by twice the depth in each direction, and add at least 6 more inches (or up to an addition foot) in each diection for overlapping the sides at the ground level. In fact, just before laying down the liner, build a slight berm around the perimeter of the pond over which you'll put this excess, and top it off with rock. This little elevation around the top will prevent groundwater from running in when it rains. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I really appreciate all the advice! :-) > > What size pond is recommended for koi ? (Minimum) That way I will know what size Elle (and possibly two more buddies- yes, I agree, she does need a buddy...she had one when I first got her, but he got out the pond somehow and that's where I found him dead. :-( ) > > Desire' in LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: SIMMONDS JOHN > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2011 6:45 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hi Scott, > > Many thanks for posting that, I had a look on the site you mentioned & > found the .pdf file of the bog filter-an excellent article. For those > interested: > http://66.147.244.221/~nelsonwa/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Bog-Filter-Construction.pdf > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 24 September 2011 21:48, <jshphoto@...> wrote: > > > There's a great way to build a bog filter for ponds using a waterfall pan, > > PVC, and gravel. > > > > Check Nelson's Watergardens for directions. > > > > On another note, I've heard not to run my pump in below freezing temps so > > that that water in the bottom stays warmer than circulating the water and > > cooling the pond overall. I've done this the last two winters and the fish > > and turtles did fine. > > > > Scott > > Deer Park, TX > > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "jasadell" <jason_dell@...> > > Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:41:04 > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Koi will eat right out of your hand. They are very friendly. Make sure > > your pond has ample biological filtration. Partial water changes in ponds > > are not as easy in ponds as it is in tanks. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> > > wrote: > > > > > > I just got my koi about 5 months ago. It is still pretty small right now. > > > Next Spring she will be in a much bigger pond. > > > > > > Thanks for all the responses I got! Such wonderful advice! I will reply > > > soon! > > > > > > > > > Desire' in Louisiana. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Amber Berglund" <arberglund@> > > > To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:59 PM > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > > > > >I don't own Koi... But isn't a 140 gallon pond not big enough for Koi? > > > > They get huge... > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 9/23/2011 11:17 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > > >> gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > > >> winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > >> > > > >> First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > > >> you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > > >> keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > > >> filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > > >> pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > > >> up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > > >> but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > > >> with no issues. > > > >> Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > > >> lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > > >> surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > > >> how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > > >> go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > >> > > > >> If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > > >> the fall until the snow flies. > > > >> > > > >> Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > > >> Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > > >> for years and years. > > > >> > > > >> If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > > >> need to), here are a few pointers: > > > >> * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > > >> in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > > >> your tank > > > >> * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > > >> Koi are cold water fish. > > > >> * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > > >> aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > > >> weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > > >> test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > > >> issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > > >> the Nitrogen cycle). > > > >> * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > >> > > > >> So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > > >> shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > > >> them. Koi are very hardy. > > > >> > > > >> BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > > >> the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > > >> Raccoon comes by. > > > >> > > > >> JD > > > >> > > > >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > > >> <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > >> > > > > >> > Hi everyone, > > > >> > > > > >> > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > > >> one I make. > > > >> > > > > >> > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > > >> back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > > >> spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > > >> live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > > >> cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > > >> sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > > >> so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > > >> since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > > >> "Elle". > > > >> > > > > >> > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > > >> questions... > > > >> > > > > >> > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > > >> read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > > >> about 80 right now) > > > >> > > > > >> > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > > >> feeding her the summer diet? > > > >> > > > > >> > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > > >> of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > > >> this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > > >> the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > > >> year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > > >> that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > > >> or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > > >> indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > > >> getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > > >> move her intO? > > > >> > > > > >> > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > > >> I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > > >> you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > > >> being inside though, it will be different. > > > >> > > > > >> > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > > >> new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > > >> possible. > > > >> > > > > >> > Thanks in advance! > > > >> > > > > >> > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > >> > > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important > > to > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where > > > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52190	From: haecklers	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

I had the parents and 3-4 spawns at a time in one tank. They do ok together. Did you want to keep all the fry or just have "some"? In a community tank the other fish will eat the fry when they're wigglers, but at 1" long they should be pretty safe from being eaten by the fish thought of as community fish. So you could keep the small fry in a separate tank then put them back in the 40-gallon one when they get bigger. I had some in with my other kinds of fry and they grew even faster when they got sinking shrimp pellets. I guess like all fish fry they need protein for fast growth! You're lucky your LFS wants them, mine only wants them if they're full-grown and showing the bristles! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are currently in my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while they are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything bigger)? Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I just let the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or so if this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady folder.....pending approval. > > Advice, please..... > > Thanks tons, > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52191	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry & now have German Blue Rams Too!

Thanks, Amber - have decided to allow this next pleco spawn to grow out a bit in the 40G - there is nothing but tetras and celebes rainbows in there and they don't seem to be very interested in them as fry snacks :-) I have another issue right now - I went to clean my other 10G heavily planted tank and discovered that I now have teeny tiny fry from my German BLue Rams/about 100 I think - when it rains it pours! This is their first spawn - I got them as juveniles about 6 months ago....I have decided to leave them in the 10G until they get a little bigger - then move them to the 10G grow out tank with the older baby plecs - it's my only option at this point. By then half the plecs should be at the LFS (he's taking 20 at a time). BTW, the 10G grow out tank is filtered by an Aquaclear 50 and and Aquaclear 20 and I do 30% h2o chgs every 3rd day - so many are indeed a dirty bunch but I have found that the two HOBs are keeping things in check nicely and I rinse out the two prefilter intake sponges EOD though the plecs do like to clean them off for me too! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > The fry can live together, but it will be harder for the young/small fry > to find food, the bigger ones will shoo them away. > I have the same problem, I just got rid of a bunch of juvenile BN > pleco's to my LFS (I couldn't find them all, so there's still maybe 6 or > so left in my 55 gallon), and mom/dad decided to have more babies. The > new fry are already free swimming (I missed the egg laying), and roughly > a half inch long already. So I'm now in a bigger hurry to get all the > old fry out of my 55 gallon and off to the LFS. I have been temporarily > housing the juveniles in a 10 gallon rubbermaid tub with a pre-cycled > filter (that hangs on the 55 gallon). The water gets pretty dirty fast, > so I do daily water changes on the tub. But this was the best way for me > to do the transitioning before I take them to the LFS. > I'd recommend moving as many of the larger fry to another tank until you > are ready to take them to your LFS, as the competition for food will be > tough with all those fry, and some may starve to death. > On a side note my albino aeneus cory's also spawned (in that same tank), > whatever I'm doing right they all like it! LOL. > I also approved your photo's, they are reading for viewing. > > Amber > > On 10/2/2011 8:29 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last > > spawn that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are > > currently in my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into > > a 20G grow out tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs > > hatch out (while they are still wrigglers/before they become free > > swimming). > > > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything > > bigger)? Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or > > should I just let the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were > > spawned? > > > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or > > so if this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > > folder.....pending approval. > > > > Advice, please..... > > > > Thanks tons, > > Clare > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52192	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Excuse me for all my misinformation............ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52193	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. Amber On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > inside or out. > > Thanks! > Desire' in Louisiana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: jasadell > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > with no issues. > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > the fall until the snow flies. > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > for years and years. > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > need to), here are a few pointers: > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > your tank > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > Koi are cold water fish. > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > the Nitrogen cycle). > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > them. Koi are very hardy. > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > Raccoon comes by. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > one I make. > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > "Elle". > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > questions... > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > about 80 right now) > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > move her intO? > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > possible. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52194	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

Hi Clare, Thanks for posting those pics-your babies look really cute. I don't know much about the morphology of Plecos-will they stay this colour or get darker as they grow? John*<o)))< * On 2 October 2011 17:29, cobra427lady <clare@...>wrote: > ** > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn > that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are currently in > my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out > tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while they > are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything bigger)? > Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I just let > the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or so if > this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > folder.....pending approval. > > Advice, please..... > > Thanks tons, > Clare > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52195	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/3/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi Desire' I'm sorry to hear that you found Elles buddy dead-might I suggest some type of netting over the pond which would have two uses, firstly to prevent anyone jumping out again & secondly [& more likely] to deter predators-anything that has to spend ages looking for a chink in the defenses will likely move on to a less protected pond where pickings are easy. I don't think the likelyhood of another jumper is very great because fish usually will only try to jump out if they are being chased or if the water quality is well below par. A few ideas-firstly a good quality garden net secured by tent pegs around the perimeter or an electrified pond fence which is great but you will need to ensure it is completely intact at all times-otherwise the opportunist hunter will find a way through. You can also get some great results from electronic Heron scarers-far better then those awful plastic Herons you can buy at the garden centre, they only [possibly] work if you move them on a daily basis & finally the most extreme-a complete iron grill over the pond which sits flush on level flagstones all around the pond. These are not pretty-or cheap but one of my friends in California who keeps Koi & Goldfish has not had a single loss in many years since he installed it. Just some ideas. John*<o)))< * On 3 October 2011 22:40, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > Amber > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > inside or out. > > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jasadell > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > with no issues. > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > for years and years. > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > your tank > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > Koi are cold water fish. > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > one I make. > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > "Elle". > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > questions... > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > move her intO? > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > possible. > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52196	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Nancy, I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point to any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were surprised the goldfish ate grapefruit. I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that the sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that good for them. As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation is misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish grow to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless the hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they only reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may have been given the wrong information by your local fish store, or you were never given the correct information on these fish from the start; many goldfish keepers in earlier years were told that it was quite alright to keep these fish in small "goldfish bowls," and so they did without ever having been told it shouldn't be done. Many of us are glad you brought this up, as there were at least two people here who offered the right information on how to keep these fish -- which others here now had the chance to learn from, including yourself. There is absolutely NO NEED for you (or anyone else) to ask to be excused from stating what you've done with some of your fish in the past. Any misinformation being offered by anyone here will quickly be corrected by others with more knowledge for the benefit of others not knowing differently (and is not being offered to show anyone else up). We are always trying to see to it that only the correct information about our fishes is given, and that's what we're here for. Misinformation will always be corrected on this List, which makes this one of the leading Yahoogroup Forums on aquarium fishes for others to learn from and expand. It will never go ignored, so that any member would otherwise get the wrong impression on proper maintenance if this were not done, and only the correct methods will be seen through in the end so there's no need to be concerned, but I thank you for coming forth. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > > Excuse me for all my misinformation............ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52197	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi Amber and Desire', Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces from freezing completely to allow crucial gas exchanges." By preventing the surface from freezing completely, they don't mean that the surface is almost ice-free, but that there is a small opening immediately surrounding the de-icer -- just enough to allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens the "More Information" tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep an area thawed and open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When scrolling down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient gas exchange." There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too hot" when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface frozen over. It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as fast as below freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is thermostatically controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 o already, and the thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance that a 500 watt (as advertised on the internet site) heater would overheat 140 gallons. Such a high wattage heater/de-icer should only be used as the outside weather approaches 32 o and lower, but as the air temperatures go down, the de-icer may be put in the pond but left unplugged until the weather reports inducate below freezing weather. Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your pond enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't advise keeping Elle out there at those times. I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are other fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose -- to allow for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no other reason (they can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally prevent surface freezing, which tells you that the remainder of water column stays quite cold). Deeper ponds have the advantage of thermocline though, which promotes a several degree rise in temperature at the bottom. For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer made by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a somewhat larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds and for ponds in harsher climates. There's also a very energy-efficient 100 Watt floating pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a good job on smaller ponds, maintaining a narrow ring of open water around them. I've sold hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally known Water Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all good brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of them being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune to failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune to failure (nor is little else made by man). If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest retailer to anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them at < sales@... > and typing in "Find a Retailer" in the subject line, then writing your message indicating your town or city. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > Amber > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > inside or out. > > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jasadell > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > with no issues. > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > for years and years. > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > your tank > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > Koi are cold water fish. > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > one I make. > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > "Elle". > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > questions... > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > move her intO? > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > possible. > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52198	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Ray, I'm the culprit who introduced the 'Grapefruit' topic into Nancy's thread. I wasn't offering this as a staple diet feed-merely a source of Vitamin C as an occasional treat. This was down to there being a proprietary Vitamin C powder for Koi which you mix with a little water & soak their pellets in [I use this to] so as an experiment I once offered my Goldfish some real orange & it was taken readily. Over time I've tried them with several citrus fruits including tangerines, lemons, limes etc but their favourite always seems to be grapefruit. Hope that clears that up. I agree with you that Nancy's posts are all valid & useful so Nancy-please carry on posting, we all learn from one another! John*<o)))< * On 4 October 2011 11:39, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi Nancy, > > I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was > "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point to > any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this > thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in a > 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were surprised > the goldfish ate grapefruit. > > I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that > the sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for > them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the > preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But > then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that good > for them. > > As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation is > misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a > incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were > offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish grow > to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless the > hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best > opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they only > reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. > > I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may > have been given the wrong information by your local fish store, or you were > never given the correct information on these fish from the start; many > goldfish keepers in earlier years were told that it was quite alright to > keep these fish in small "goldfish bowls," and so they did without ever > having been told it shouldn't be done. Many of us are glad you brought this > up, as there were at least two people here who offered the right information > on how to keep these fish -- which others here now had the chance to learn > from, including yourself. There is absolutely NO NEED for you (or anyone > else) to ask to be excused from stating what you've done with some of your > fish in the past. > > Any misinformation being offered by anyone here will quickly be corrected > by others with more knowledge for the benefit of others not knowing > differently (and is not being offered to show anyone else up). We are always > trying to see to it that only the correct information about our fishes is > given, and that's what we're here for. Misinformation will always be > corrected on this List, which makes this one of the leading Yahoogroup > Forums on aquarium fishes for others to learn from and expand. It will never > go ignored, so that any member would otherwise get the wrong impression on > proper maintenance if this were not done, and only the correct methods will > be seen through in the end so there's no need to be concerned, but I thank > you for coming forth. > > Ray -- Moderator > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@...> wrote: > > > > Excuse me for all my misinformation............ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52199	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

I've been told that goldfish don't produce vitamin c and feeding them orange slices is good. That is probably tastier than grapefruit. Jmo Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 10:39:59 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish" Hi Nancy, I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point to any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were surprised the goldfish ate grapefruit. I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that the sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that good for them. As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation is misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish grow to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless the hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they only reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may have been given the wrong inf [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52200	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi John, Interesting! Who'd had thought that these fish would go for citrus fruits. Well, I guess orage might be appealing to them, but grapefruit has such a sour taste . . . unless you sprinkled it with sugar < g >. So, as I understand your saying, it was your own idea in experimenting and not something you pick up on that other hobbyists are doing. While there may be a vitamin C powder to mix with food for Koi, I really don't think that it's a good idea to feed them citrus fruits when you consider the pH of these foods. As we all know, fish are very sensitive to the external effects of pH on their systems, as a parameter of the medium (water) they live in. Any such influences are exerted not only to their skin and scales -- which are mainly protected from external forces by their mucous coatings, but are also exerted to their gills/blood system which feels these effects directly. As changes in pH of the water column to fishes' internal systems needn't be much more than an 0.2 difference for the pH to have a diverse effect on these animals, I tend to doubt that these fruits are any good for them. Grapefruit has a pH of 3.3, Lemon has a pH of 2.4 and lime has a pH of 2.2 . . . from the citric acid they contain. When taken directly into the digestive system, it can't have a mild effect on their systems. People can even get indigestion from too much acid in their stomachs and need to take antacids, so why would fish fare better when having these acids in their systems? Just something to think about, although apparently your fish have shown no bad effects from it. I just wouldn't advise these foods though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > I'm the culprit who introduced the 'Grapefruit' topic into Nancy's thread. > I wasn't offering this as a staple diet feed-merely a source of Vitamin C as > an occasional treat. This was down to there being a proprietary Vitamin C > powder for Koi which you mix with a little water & soak their pellets in [I > use this to] so as an experiment I once offered my Goldfish some real orange > & it was taken readily. Over time I've tried them with several citrus fruits > including tangerines, lemons, limes etc but their favourite always seems to > be grapefruit. Hope that clears that up. I agree with you that Nancy's posts > are all valid & useful so Nancy-please carry on posting, we all learn from > one another! > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > On 4 October 2011 11:39, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi Nancy, > > > > I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was > > "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point to > > any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this > > thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in a > > 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were surprised > > the goldfish ate grapefruit. > > > > I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that > > the sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for > > them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the > > preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But > > then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that good > > for them. > > > > As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation is > > misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a > > incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were > > offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish grow > > to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless the > > hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best > > opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they only > > reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. > > > > I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may > > have been given the wrong information by your local fish store, or you were > > never given the correct information on these fish from the start; many > > goldfish keepers in earlier years were told that it was quite alright to > > keep these fish in small "goldfish bowls," and so they did without ever > > having been told it shouldn't be done. Many of us are glad you brought this > > up, as there were at least two people here who offered the right information > > on how to keep these fish -- which others here now had the chance to learn > > from, including yourself. There is absolutely NO NEED for you (or anyone > > else) to ask to be excused from stating what you've done with some of your > > fish in the past. > > > > Any misinformation being offered by anyone here will quickly be corrected > > by others with more knowledge for the benefit of others not knowing > > differently (and is not being offered to show anyone else up). We are always > > trying to see to it that only the correct information about our fishes is > > given, and that's what we're here for. Misinformation will always be > > corrected on this List, which makes this one of the leading Yahoogroup > > Forums on aquarium fishes for others to learn from and expand. It will never > > go ignored, so that any member would otherwise get the wrong impression on > > proper maintenance if this were not done, and only the correct methods will > > be seen through in the end so there's no need to be concerned, but I thank > > you for coming forth. > > > > Ray -- Moderator > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Nancy Lee <msbutterfly770@> wrote: > > > > > > Excuse me for all my misinformation............ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52201	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

Well, this is what I have decided to do - let nature takes it course (sort of) and leave the next pleco spawn in the 40G with the parents and my neon tetras and celebes rainbows. I can trap out the fry when they get older and greedy for zucchini LOL A new issue has arisen - my pair of German Blue Rams has spawned and taken over the 10G planted tank... they obviously like it in there. The fry were free swimming on Sunday are so tiny I could barely see them but the parents have now started to eat them so on advice of my trusty LFS I managed to save 10 or so of the fry and put them in the grow out tank with the baby plecos :-) The ram parents ate the rest but I guess they do this the first few times til they get the hang of it. We shall see what happens to the ones I rescued....another "nature takes its course moment" I guess. I posted video on YouTube & here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdHHuDWY-vw Fun, fun, fun!!!!! Thanks for all the advice! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I had the parents and 3-4 spawns at a time in one tank. They do ok together. Did you want to keep all the fry or just have "some"? In a community tank the other fish will eat the fry when they're wigglers, but at 1" long they should be pretty safe from being eaten by the fish thought of as community fish. So you could keep the small fry in a separate tank then put them back in the 40-gallon one when they get bigger. > > I had some in with my other kinds of fry and they grew even faster when they got sinking shrimp pellets. I guess like all fish fry they need protein for fast growth! > > You're lucky your LFS wants them, mine only wants them if they're full-grown and showing the bristles! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are currently in my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while they are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything bigger)? Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I just let the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or so if this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady folder.....pending approval. > > > > Advice, please..... > > > > Thanks tons, > > Clare > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52202	From: cobra427lady	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color

Thanks, John - they are cute :-) As far as color goes, I think feeding them orange fleshed squash is supposed to brighten their color up, but mine are only interested in zucchini and cucumber :-) The parents are definitely darker than their fry, though, so I assume color will deepen with age. Since both parents are albino (red eyed) and long finned, I assume that the fry will also be such - can anyone with BN breeding experience weight in here? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Clare, > > Thanks for posting those pics-your babies look really cute. I don't know > much about the morphology of Plecos-will they stay this colour or get darker > as they grow? > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > On 2 October 2011 17:29, cobra427lady <clare@...>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn > > that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are currently in > > my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out > > tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while they > > are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything bigger)? > > Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I just let > > the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or so if > > this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > > folder.....pending approval. > > > > Advice, please..... > > > > Thanks tons, > > Clare > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52203	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color

Have you tried blanched butternut squash? My pleco's love it as well as the zucchini/cucumber. Amber On 10/4/2011 7:13 AM, cobra427lady wrote: > > Thanks, John - they are cute :-) As far as color goes, I think feeding > them orange fleshed squash is supposed to brighten their color up, but > mine are only interested in zucchini and cucumber :-) The parents are > definitely darker than their fry, though, so I assume color will > deepen with age. Since both parents are albino (red eyed) and long > finned, I assume that the fry will also be such - can anyone with BN > breeding experience weight in here? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Clare, > > > > Thanks for posting those pics-your babies look really cute. I don't know > > much about the morphology of Plecos-will they stay this colour or > get darker > > as they grow? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 2 October 2011 17:29, cobra427lady <clare@...>wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > > > > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last > spawn > > > that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are > currently in > > > my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G > grow out > > > tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out > (while they > > > are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > > > > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything > bigger)? > > > Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I > just let > > > the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > > > > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > > > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days > or so if > > > this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > > > folder.....pending approval. > > > > > > Advice, please..... > > > > > > Thanks tons, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52204	From: Jaiko	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry Color

And green peas Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: >Have you tried blanched butternut squash? My pleco's love it as well as >the zucchini/cucumber. > >Amber > >On 10/4/2011 7:13 AM, cobra427lady wrote: >> >> Thanks, John - they are cute :-) As far as color goes, I think feeding >> them orange fleshed squash is supposed to brighten their color up, but >> mine are only interested in zucchini and cucumber :-) The parents are >> definitely darker than their fry, though, so I assume color will >> deepen with age. Since both parents are albino (red eyed) and long >> finned, I assume that the fry will also be such - can anyone with BN >> breeding experience weight in here? >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN >> <simmonds.john@...> wrote: >> > >> > Hi Clare, >> > >> > Thanks for posting those pics-your babies look really cute. I don't know >> > much about the morphology of Plecos-will they stay this colour or >> get darker >> > as they grow? >> > >> > John*<o)))< >> > >> > * >> > >> > >> > On 2 October 2011 17:29, cobra427lady <clare@...>wrote: >> > >> > > ** >> > > >> > > >> > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type >> > > >> > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last >> spawn >> > > that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are >> currently in >> > > my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G >> grow out >> > > tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out >> (while they >> > > are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). >> > > >> > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything >> bigger)? >> > > Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I >> just let >> > > the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? >> > > >> > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could >> > > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days >> or so if >> > > this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady >> > > folder.....pending approval. >> > > >> > > Advice, please..... >> > > >> > > Thanks tons, >> > > Clare >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >> >> > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52205	From: jasadell	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?

Doesn't adding a UV Sterilizer kill beneficial bacteria (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter), as well as suspended algae, etc? Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52206	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?

Sure, a UV sterilizer will kill any and all (hopefully, including virus) microbes being exposed to it. As most of these nitrifying bacteria will be in the filter, and also on the substrate and on all inside surfaces of the glass, there's no way these bacteria will be affected. A UV sterilizer is an opaque tube with the UV bulb inside of it. This tube is in line with your filter and as water passes though the tube and by the light, The UV lighting will kill all of the algae and anything else suspended in the water column, but only in the water column -- essentially, in any of the water drawn past the enclosed UV bulb. There's very little nitrifying bacteria in the water column anyway, so the effect on these bacteria in your aquarium is negligible. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Doesn't adding a UV Sterilizer kill beneficial bacteria (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter), as well as suspended algae, etc? > > Thanks, > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52207	From: Ray	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Orange slices have a pH of about 4.0, better than any other citrus fruit as far as the pH goes. This should be a lot safer for the fish to digest, when added to their acidic digestive juices (just as in mammals). When the food is too acid though, as in feeding lime slices, we can't give the fish Tums! Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "safirezprincess@..." <safirezprincess@...> wrote: > > I've been told that goldfish don't produce vitamin c and feeding them orange > slices is good. That is probably tastier than grapefruit. Jmo > Bren > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > -----Original message----- > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 10:39:59 GMT+00:00 > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish" > > Hi Nancy, > > I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was > "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point to > any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this > thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in a > 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were surprised > the goldfish ate grapefruit. > > I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that the > sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for > them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the > preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But > then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that good > for them. > > As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation is > misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a > incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were > offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish > grow to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless > the hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best > opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they only > reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. > > I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may > have been given the wrong inf > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52208	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Hi Ray, Just out of interest, have you-or anyone else here ever heard of an outdoor pond that was completely heated like an outdoor swimming pool so that it maintained a constant temperature thorough the Winter while all around was snow & ice? I would imagine the problems would be many but I guess it could be done with enough know-how & money of course! John*<o)))< * On 4 October 2011 13:59, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an > open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will > be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for > Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when > the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away > all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. > BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- > they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. > > Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," > they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole > in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. > > If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna > pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces > from freezing completely to allow crucial gas exchanges." By preventing the > surface from freezing completely, they don't mean that the surface is almost > ice-free, but that there is a small opening immediately surrounding the > de-icer -- just enough to allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens > the "More Information" tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep > an area thawed and open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When > scrolling down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to > maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient gas > exchange." > > There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too hot" > when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface frozen over. > It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as fast as below > freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is thermostatically > controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 o already, and the > thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance that a 500 watt (as > advertised on the internet site) heater would overheat 140 gallons. Such a > high wattage heater/de-icer should only be used as the outside weather > approaches 32 o and lower, but as the air temperatures go down, the de-icer > may be put in the pond but left unplugged until the weather reports inducate > below freezing weather. > > Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your pond > enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't advise keeping > Elle out there at those times. > > I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are other > fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose -- to allow > for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no other reason (they > can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally prevent surface freezing, > which tells you that the remainder of water column stays quite cold). Deeper > ponds have the advantage of thermocline though, which promotes a several > degree rise in temperature at the bottom. > > For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer made > by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a somewhat > larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds and for ponds > in harsher climates. There's also a very energy-efficient 100 Watt floating > pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a > good job on smaller ponds, maintaining a narrow ring of open water around > them. I've sold hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally > known Water Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all > good brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until > after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of them > being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune to > failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune to failure > (nor is little else made by man). > > If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest retailer to > anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them at < > sales@... > and typing in "Find a Retailer" in the subject line, > then writing your message indicating your town or city. > > Ray > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52209	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?

Hi JD, Agreed-almost all of the 'good bugs' that keep your tank's eco system ticking over nicely live on surfaces rather than in the water column. The majority will be in your filter media &/or gravel where they form large colonies. John*<o)))< * On 4 October 2011 20:45, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Sure, a UV sterilizer will kill any and all (hopefully, including virus) > microbes being exposed to it. As most of these nitrifying bacteria will be > in the filter, and also on the substrate and on all inside surfaces of the > glass, there's no way these bacteria will be affected. A UV sterilizer is an > opaque tube with the UV bulb inside of it. This tube is in line with your > filter and as water passes though the tube and by the light, The UV lighting > will kill all of the algae and anything else suspended in the water column, > but only in the water column -- essentially, in any of the water drawn past > the enclosed UV bulb. There's very little nitrifying bacteria in the water > column anyway, so the effect on these bacteria in your aquarium is > negligible. > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > > Doesn't adding a UV Sterilizer kill beneficial bacteria (nitrosomonas and > nitrobacter), as well as suspended algae, etc? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52210	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/4/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

I've heard of a couple people from the pond groups heating the whole pond. They use special heaters all over low in the pond and usually keep some type of plastic greenhouse type of enclosure around the pond in winter. And there are other ways to keep the heat in, like floating those balls from the playbins little kids dive around in. Even then I don't remember the pond water temp getting above 50 degrees, but that would be better than nothing in the colder northern states, if you want to enjoy your fish year round and can afford the electricity bills, yikes! :) Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 21:45:48 GMT+00:00 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Hi Ray, Just out of interest, have you-or anyone else here ever heard of an outdoor pond that was completely heated like an outdoor swimming pool so that it maintained a constant temperature thorough the Winter while all around was snow & ice? I would imagine the problems would be many but I guess it could be done with enough know-how & money of course! John*<o)))< * On 4 October 2011 13:59, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an > open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will > be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for > Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when > the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away > all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. > BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- > they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. > > Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," > they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole > in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. > > If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna > pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces > from freezing completely to all [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52211	From: jasadell	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > Thanks, > JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52212	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Do UV Sterilizers Kill Beneficial Bacteria?

I agree... Nicely put Ray! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Sure, a UV sterilizer will kill any and all (hopefully, including virus) microbes being exposed to it. As most of these nitrifying bacteria will be in the filter, and also on the substrate and on all inside surfaces of the glass, there's no way these bacteria will be affected. A UV sterilizer is an opaque tube with the UV bulb inside of it. This tube is in line with your filter and as water passes though the tube and by the light, The UV lighting will kill all of the algae and anything else suspended in the water column, but only in the water column -- essentially, in any of the water drawn past the enclosed UV bulb. There's very little nitrifying bacteria in the water column anyway, so the effect on these bacteria in your aquarium is negligible. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Doesn't adding a UV Sterilizer kill beneficial bacteria (nitrosomonas and nitrobacter), as well as suspended algae, etc? > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52213	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Albino Long Fin BN Pleco Fry

My pleco's have not changed color very much from when they were born. The normal "brown" ones are born brown and stay brown, they just get their spots/markings as they get older. My albino babies are all white/albino looking, just like dad is, they were born this way as well. I'm excited to see albino babies, the last spawn was all brown. Perhaps dad mated with one of his daughters and carried on the albino gene this way? Hard to tell. Amber On 10/3/2011 1:36 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Clare, > > Thanks for posting those pics-your babies look really cute. I don't know > much about the morphology of Plecos-will they stay this colour or get > darker > as they grow? > > John*<o)))< > > * > > On 2 October 2011 17:29, cobra427lady > <clare@... > <mailto:clare%40clarescreaturecomforts.com>>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Well, my plecos have spawned again - Dad is fanning eggs as I type > > > > I still have 35-40 fry at a little over 1" in length from the last spawn > > that are not quite grown out yet to take to the LFS....they are > currently in > > my 10G grow out tank. My thought is to upgrade these into a 20G grow out > > tank so that I can add the new spawn after the eggs hatch out (while > they > > are still wrigglers/before they become free swimming). > > > > Will a 20G be large enough (I really don't have room for anything > bigger)? > > Can the two different age fry live together in a 20G or should I > just let > > the new fry grow out in the 40G where they were spawned? > > > > I was not expecting the parents to spawn again so quickly..... I could > > conceivably wind up with close to 100 fry within the next 10 days or > so if > > this new spawn goes as well as the last. Pics in Cobra427lady > > folder.....pending approval. > > > > Advice, please..... > > > > Thanks tons, > > Clare > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52214	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Never base decisions solely on advice from those who make a living selling you fish, LOL. Johannii needs a bigger tank, very aggressive. The peacocks might do OK with the labs and acei, but definitely not with the johannii and definitely need to be kept either as a sole male or in a harem of 1m:4f or something similar. I would not exceed 3 species in a 55G tank, and Johannii would not be one of the species. I also like a bigger tank for acei as they mature at 7”, but the acei have a decent chance of working. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:03 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > Thanks, > JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52215	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/5/2011
Subject: Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish"

Hi Ray, Thanks for pointing that out about the pH of citrus fruits, it's an interesting point & certainly something I'd never have considered so duly noted! & yes, you are quite correct in thinking that this is something that I've formulated myself but I've seen several references to it on other sites & also as I mentioned there is a proprietary Koi Vitamin C powder so I just followed on from that because I think larger streamlined Comets & Commons have at least as much in common with Koi as they do with their smaller & more delicate fancy cousins. I would stress however, that my fishes staple diet consists of a 3 part mix of 4mm Koi pellets, pond sticks & dried shrimp together with daily frozen blister packs such as bloodworms, brine shrimp & krill. I also offer seaweed pellets & larger Pro Gold sinking pellets. Additionally two or 3 times a week they have cooked broccoli, cauliflower, peas, spinach or soya beans. The orange [& I will stick to orange from now on] is just an occasional treat as is the egg fried rice, hard boiled egg yolk & brown bread-perhaps once a week. I know this all sounds like a great deal of food but they only get a very small amount at each feed & because I am in & out all the time I can feed them several times daily which I think is better than once because it does not overload their digestive system & I think it tends to replicate more the constant foraging that a Carp in the wild would do. John*<o)))< * On 4 October 2011 20:56, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Orange slices have a pH of about 4.0, better than any other citrus fruit as > far as the pH goes. This should be a lot safer for the fish to digest, when > added to their acidic digestive juices (just as in mammals). When the food > is too acid though, as in feeding lime slices, we can't give the fish Tums! > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "safirezprincess@..." > <safirezprincess@...> wrote: > > > > I've been told that goldfish don't produce vitamin c and feeding them > orange > > slices is good. That is probably tastier than grapefruit. Jmo > > Bren > > > > Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless > > > > -----Original message----- > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tue, Oct 4, 2011 10:39:59 GMT+00:00 > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: silly question :) - "feeder goldfish" > > > > Hi Nancy, > > > > I'm not sure exactly what information you feel you gave that was > > "misinformation," as there's no post under your message which would point > to > > any other information that would differ from what you've offered in this > > thread. I do see that you've replied as saying that you had 6 goldfish in > a > > 30 gallon tank which grew to 7" to 9" long, and also that you were > surprised > > the goldfish ate grapefruit. > > > > I too was surprised that goldfish ate grapefruit, thinking not only that > the > > sour taste would have turned them off, but that it's a bit unnatural for > > them to do so. Then too, goldfish are omnivors, leaning towards the > > preferring plant matter -- and grapefruit is plant matter, after all. But > > > then, I have to question whether such an acidic food is really all that > good > > for them. > > > > As for maintaining 6 goldfish in a 30 gallon tank, while this revelation > is > > misleading to others who may think this is correct to do, and it is a > > incorrect procedure to attempt to do with these fish, only if it were > > offered as advice would it be considered as misinformation. As goldfish > > grow to normally be at least 12" long, they are really a pond fish unless > > > the hobbyist can provide them with large aquariums to offer them the best > > > opportunity for them to reach their full potential. Otherwise, if they > only > > reach 7" - 9" long as their final size, they are being stunted. > > > > I don't entirely blame you for this "misinformation" though, when you may > > > have been given the wrong inf > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52216	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I have to agree with Donna about the Johanni not being a good mix, they are more aggressive than the others, especially the yellow labs. I have seen Johanni rip yellow labs apart even when they were all still fairly small... I would watch that mix carefully and remove the Johanni at the first sign of aggression. In regaqrds to the reduced color in the new Acei, that could be a dominance thing and they may not color back up like they were at the store. Cichlids tend to have a "chain of command" where the most dominant fish has the deepest, brightest coloration. This can (and usually does) change off from time to time as the fish grow, mature, and fight for territory and their place in the ranks. As they mature and begin to pair off you may notice that one male and one female are brighter colored than all the rest... this helps to identify the strongest, most dominant pair in the tank. The other thing to watch is stress, as this can also cause color to fade. The moving to a new tank will surely cause stress, change in water parameters, temp, tank mates, and even foods can cause a bit of color change due to stress. When it is stress induced the colors tend to slowly brighten back up a bit as the fish adjust to their new environment and find their place in rank among the others. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Never base decisions solely on advice from those who make a living selling > you fish, LOL. > > > > Johannii needs a bigger tank, very aggressive. The peacocks might do OK > with the labs and acei, but definitely not with the johannii and definitely > need to be kept either as a sole male or in a harem of 1m:4f or something > similar. > > > > I would not exceed 3 species in a 55G tank, and Johannii would not be one of > the species. I also like a bigger tank for acei as they mature at 7", but > the acei have a decent chance of working. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:03 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni > Cichlid > (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . > I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased > them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They > had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business > for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I > quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured > me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to > hear an opinion or two on that. > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They > were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put > them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the > environment and water. > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it > gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on > the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised > stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills > any of the others. > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of > those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know > for sure can exist together. > > Thanks, > > JD > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52217	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility (frustrations)

You know, it really drives me insane how many contradictions on Cichlids are out there. I started at a franchised pet store, but they admitted that they really were not Cichlid experts, and referred me to the the guy at the store where I purchased the Johanni/Peacocks. He and one of his employees both ensured me that the Johanni was not going to be a problem with my other existing Cichlids in my 55 gallon. Out of paranoia (apparently not enough paranoia) I stopped at a different specialty store on the way home inquired about it before adding them to my tank. This store verified that the Johanni would be ok. Now I hear from 3 folks here that the Johanni is in no way compatible. I don't know who to believe anymore! So help me out here... I'm admittedly a complete noob when it comes to Cichlids. I have read a book on Cichlids, have done hours of online research, and have posted a zillion questions to this group (and gotten great advice). Folks in this group generally agree with each other (which is refreshing), but finding a local store where someone agrees with the folks in this group is proving to be difficult. How should I avoid making mistakes that require me to make returns/exchanges? This last one is going to cost me, because I don't think they will take it back. I don't mind doing research, but every time I go to buy fish, the ones I have researched are gone and others are available instead that I know nothing about. There are so many species of Malawi Cichlids alone, I cannot know them all. I just need some advice... some "Setting up a Cichlid tank for Dummies" type of advice. Couple of more questions, please (the zillion and 1st/2nd): - What do I do about the Johanni? Like I said, I may not be able to exchange it. I guess I could give it back, but then I eat $9. Should I take it out for sure, or take a chance until it or something else gets mauled? - I picked up some Tetra Algae Vegetable Infused (thanks for the tip, Ray). How often should I really be feeding my Cichlids? I don't believe the "2-3 times per day" on the box for one minute. Before I forget... I know I whined a lot here... but I want to say thanks to the folks here for their expert advice. It is clear that you folks have done your homework and know what you are talking about. I wish I could have that knowledge at my fingertips when I am at the store, so I could make educated choices. Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Never base decisions solely on advice from those who make a living selling > you fish, LOL. > > Johannii needs a bigger tank, very aggressive. The peacocks might do OK > with the labs and acei, but definitely not with the johannii and definitely > need to be kept either as a sole male or in a harem of 1m:4f or something > similar. > > I would not exceed 3 species in a 55G tank, and Johannii would not be one of > the species. I also like a bigger tank for acei as they mature at 7", but > the acei have a decent chance of working. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 11:03 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52218	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks. I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested. You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have. This is especially important concerning the Acei. Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species. Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks. Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes. They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer. Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > Thanks, > > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52219	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > Thanks, > > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52220	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Thanks Ray, this is good stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. BTW you have a great memory. You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds. I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst. I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead. I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go). They seem similar. As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon. That seems like way too much. Of course I want as many as I can. I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature. I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. My oldest Acei is about 3". The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each. Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species. Should lose the johanni? I know what your will say (too bad. It's very cool) Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids? Would this count as one of my 3 species? Thanks again, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks. I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested. You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have. This is especially important concerning the Acei. Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species. Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks. Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes. They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer. Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > Thanks, > > > JD > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52221	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Interbreeding is one thing that everyone seems to agree is undesirable. I really have no interest in breeding them at all, and I don't intent to remove and fry for the sole purpose of keeping the fry alive. Won't the mature fish just eat the fry? This is the method I have used to control overpopulation in community tanks. Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: ... Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52222	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

JD, First, let me just say that while there are Synodontis Catfish that do just fine with African Cichlids (S. multipuntata and S. petricola come to mind, as they ARE Rift Lake catfish) -- you just don't have the room if you maintain 3 Cichlid species. As for any one of these catfish species being a "third" species, the Cichlids will not be interacting with them; it wasn't what I had in mind. But, it's your tank, and it could still be done. Then too, you could limit yourself to just two Cichlid species (and add Catfish), but I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from. If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this. You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola. These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2"). This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks. Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%. Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank. If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. BTW you have a great memory. > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds. I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst. I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead. I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go). They seem similar. > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon. That seems like way too much. Of course I want as many as I can. I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature. I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > My oldest Acei is about 3". The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each. Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species. Should lose the johanni? I know what your will say (too bad. It's very cool) > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids? Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > Thanks again, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > JD, > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks. I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested. You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have. This is especially important concerning the Acei. Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species. Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks. Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes. They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer. Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > Thanks, > > > > JD > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52223	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

You know I think you may be right. I have googled them and they all show a much lighter hue than mine. The ones I have have darkened to nearly brown with redder orange behind the gills. The images I see on Google for Red Zebra show them as brighter orange, so I don't think that is what I have. I need to look at them closer tonight to see. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > > Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52224	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Whether you intend to breed them or not, they will eventually breed. Sure, most of them will probably be eaten, but with lots of rock-work for them to hide in, around and under, there will often be at least a few survivers that you see venture out after about a month, after they feel safe enough to do so. In a regular community tank, there is often not enough cover for them to hide in and over the ensuing weeks the fry will get sought after and eliminated, but the Rift Lake tank will promote at least some survival only by it's very nature of needing to be full of rock-work -- which offers hiding spaces the mature fish just can't reach. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Interbreeding is one thing that everyone seems to agree is undesirable. > I really have no interest in breeding them at all, and I don't intent to remove and fry for the sole purpose of keeping the fry alive. Won't the mature fish just eat the fry? This is the method I have used to control overpopulation in community tanks. > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > ... Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52225	From: Ray	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Just going by the shape of the fish (and their finnage) in the photos, I'm sure you should ba able to distinguish what any Peacock looks like. Your present description just of noting the redder orange patch behind the gills (and with a different body color) tends to now point to this Sunburst Peacock you bought them as. This description is much clearer than what sounded like an overall red body color for these fish. As I've mentioned before, the fry and juveniles will almost always resemble the female in color in most Rift Lake Cichlids. The photos you saw on the 'Net, and the description I ran by you of a bright yellow-orange fish rather than these brown ones are of mature males, which are almost always much brighter than the juveniles; the redder-orange blotch is the tell-tale sign of this Peacock variety. Looks like you have what you bought them as afterall. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > You know I think you may be right. I have googled them and they all show a much lighter hue than mine. The ones I have have darkened to nearly brown with redder orange behind the gills. The images I see on Google for Red Zebra show them as brighter orange, so I don't think that is what I have. I need to look at them closer tonight to see. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > JD, > > > > Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52226	From: jasadell	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Well, they don't have a warranty, so I can't assume they have a return policy. If they refuse to refund/replace the Johanni, then I wold be willing to give it back for the sake of my other tank mates and just call it a $9 lesson learned. I'll try to sweeten the deal by trading in the 3" Acei for an additional 1" Acei (which seems fair). How they handle this will determine my future business with them, so it's of their best interest do take the deal. I like the 6 Acei, 4 Yellow Labs, and 4 Peacocks option. I can do without the cats and 33% water change takes no more time than a 15% or 20% water change. I don't have to worry about (I forget the term) "resetting/unbalancing" the system with 33%? Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > ...I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from. If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this. > > You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola. These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2"). This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. > > Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks. Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%. Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). > > As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank. If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. BTW you have a great memory. > > > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds. I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst. I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead. I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go). They seem similar. > > > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon. That seems like way too much. Of course I want as many as I can. I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature. I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > > > My oldest Acei is about 3". The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each. Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species. Should lose the johanni? I know what your will say (too bad. It's very cool) > > > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids? Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > > > Thanks again, > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks. I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested. You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have. This is especially important concerning the Acei. Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species. Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks. Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes. They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer. Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52227	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

A 33% weekly change should not cause problems with your beneficial bacteria I often do 75%. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 4:08 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility Well, they don't have a warranty, so I can't assume they have a return policy. If they refuse to refund/replace the Johanni, then I wold be willing to give it back for the sake of my other tank mates and just call it a $9 lesson learned. I'll try to sweeten the deal by trading in the 3" Acei for an additional 1" Acei (which seems fair). How they handle this will determine my future business with them, so it's of their best interest do take the deal. I like the 6 Acei, 4 Yellow Labs, and 4 Peacocks option. I can do without the cats and 33% water change takes no more time than a 15% or 20% water change. I don't have to worry about (I forget the term) "resetting/unbalancing" the system with 33%? Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > ...I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from. If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this. > > You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola. These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2"). This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. > > Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks. Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%. Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). > > As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank. If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff. Thanks for being patient with me. BTW you have a great memory. > > > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds. I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst. I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead. I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go). They seem similar. > > > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon. That seems like way too much. Of course I want as many as I can. I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature. I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > > > My oldest Acei is about 3". The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each. Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species. Should lose the johanni? I know what your will say (too bad. It's very cool) > > > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids? Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > > > Thanks again, > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks. I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested. You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have. This is especially important concerning the Acei. Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species. Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks. Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed. > > > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes. They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer. Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) . I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni. However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively. They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group). They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank. I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased. They were a deep red in the store tank. They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract. I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature. No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now). Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups. I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52228	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/6/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Out of curiousity, what is your opinion about this pond de-icer? Its submersible. http://www.pondliner.com/product/thermo-pond_submersible_pond_de-icer/pond_de-icers The info everyone gave has been great, but a bit overwhelming. I'm still trying to sifle it all out. Desire' In LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:59 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors Hi Amber and Desire', Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces from freezing completely to allow crucial gas exchanges." By preventing the surface from freezing completely, they don't mean that the surface is almost ice-free, but that there is a small opening immediately surrounding the de-icer -- just enough to allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens the "More Information" tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep an area thawed and open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When scrolling down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient gas exchange." There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too hot" when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface frozen over. It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as fast as below freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is thermostatically controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 o already, and the thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance that a 500 watt (as advertised on the internet site) heater would overheat 140 gallons. Such a high wattage heater/de-icer should only be used as the outside weather approaches 32 o and lower, but as the air temperatures go down, the de-icer may be put in the pond but left unplugged until the weather reports inducate below freezing weather. Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your pond enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't advise keeping Elle out there at those times. I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are other fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose -- to allow for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no other reason (they can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally prevent surface freezing, which tells you that the remainder of water column stays quite cold). Deeper ponds have the advantage of thermocline though, which promotes a several degree rise in temperature at the bottom. For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer made by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a somewhat larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds and for ponds in harsher climates. There's also a very energy-efficient 100 Watt floating pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a good job on smaller ponds, maintaining a narrow ring of open water around them. I've sold hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally known Water Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all good brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of them being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune to failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune to failure (nor is little else made by man). If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest retailer to anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them at < sales@... > and typing in "Find a Retailer" in the subject line, then writing your message indicating your town or city. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > Amber > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > inside or out. > > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: jasadell > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > with no issues. > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > for years and years. > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > your tank > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > Koi are cold water fish. > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > one I make. > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > "Elle". > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > questions... > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > move her intO? > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > possible. > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52229	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?

How often should I be feeding my cichlids? I have 10 juveniles now. Thanks, JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52230	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?

For most juvenile fish it's good to feed them several times a day (small portions that they finish in 5 minutes or less), when they are fully grown you can lessen the amount of times you feed them to once or twice a day if you prefer. Amber On 10/7/2011 4:47 AM, jasadell wrote: > > How often should I be feeding my cichlids? I have 10 juveniles now. > > Thanks, > JD > > __._ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52231	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Sunburst Peacock

I looked a the supposed Sunburst Peacocks again last night and come to find out there is faint dark vertical barring. They are mostly nearly brown, with very dark orange behind the gills. Now I'm starting to wonder if your original speculation that these may be a different morph of peacock may be correct. I can't find any pics to match them up with. Wonder if I purchased a couple of "mutts?" I'll just pick up a couple more from the same tank where these came from and stick with them. They still look nice. BTW I called the place where I purchased the Johanni (same place where the above came from), and although they did reluctantly agree to trade it in, they were quite indignant with me for challenging their expertise on the compatibility of the Johanni with my other tank mates. I'm stating to think I need to find a new store. Oh well, I guess it's a moot point now since I'm at my species variety maximum already. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Just going by the shape of the fish (and their finnage) in the photos, I'm sure you should ba able to distinguish what any Peacock looks like. Your present description just of noting the redder orange patch behind the gills (and with a different body color) tends to now point to this Sunburst Peacock you bought them as. This description is much clearer than what sounded like an overall red body color for these fish. As I've mentioned before, the fry and juveniles will almost always resemble the female in color in most Rift Lake Cichlids. The photos you saw on the 'Net, and the description I ran by you of a bright yellow-orange fish rather than these brown ones are of mature males, which are almost always much brighter than the juveniles; the redder-orange blotch is the tell-tale sign of this Peacock variety. Looks like you have what you bought them as afterall. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > You know I think you may be right. I have googled them and they all show a much lighter hue than mine. The ones I have have darkened to nearly brown with redder orange behind the gills. The images I see on Google for Red Zebra show them as brighter orange, so I don't think that is what I have. I need to look at them closer tonight to see. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. > > > > > > Ray > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52232	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

It looks about the same as the last one, only submersable. It states it only keeps a hole in the ice, that's it. What are your winter temps in LA? This may help us determine if you should just winter your Koi indoors or attempt to get a heater and keep your pond at a warmer temp than outdoor temps for the winter. Amber On 10/6/2011 6:49 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > Out of curiousity, what is your opinion about this pond de-icer? Its > submersible. > > http://www.pondliner.com/product/thermo-pond_submersible_pond_de-icer/pond_de-icers > > The info everyone gave has been great, but a bit overwhelming. I'm > still trying to sifle it all out. > > Desire' In LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:59 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will > keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of > the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will > be too stressful for Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any > higher temperatures when the air is cold enough to inducing icing > over. The cold air will take away all the heat except for that small > area immediately surrounding the heater. BTW, these pond > heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- they are NOT > submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. > > Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond > heaters," they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to > keep a small hole in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my > last post on this thread. > > If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the > Laguna pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents > pond surfaces from freezing completely to allow crucial gas > exchanges." By preventing the surface from freezing completely, they > don't mean that the surface is almost ice-free, but that there is a > small opening immediately surrounding the de-icer -- just enough to > allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens the "More Information" > tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep an area thawed and > open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When scrolling > down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to > maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient > gas exchange." > > There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too > hot" when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface > frozen over. It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as > fast as below freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is > thermostatically controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 > o already, and the thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance > that a 500 watt (as advertised on the internet site) heater would > overheat 140 gallons. Such a high wattage heater/de-icer should only > be used as the outside weather approaches 32 o and lower, but as the > air temperatures go down, the de-icer may be put in the pond but left > unplugged until the weather reports inducate below freezing weather. > > Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your > pond enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't > advise keeping Elle out there at those times. > > I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are > other fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose > -- to allow for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no > other reason (they can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally > prevent surface freezing, which tells you that the remainder of water > column stays quite cold). Deeper ponds have the advantage of > thermocline though, which promotes a several degree rise in > temperature at the bottom. > > For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer > made by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a > somewhat larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds > and for ponds in harsher climates. There's also a very > energy-efficient 100 Watt floating pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call > the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a good job on smaller ponds, > maintaining a narrow ring of open water around them. I've sold > hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally known Water > Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all good > brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until > after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of > them being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune > to failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune > to failure (nor is little else made by man). > > If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest > retailer to anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them > at < sales@... <mailto:sales%40khmfg.com> > and typing in "Find > a Retailer" in the subject line, then writing your message indicating > your town or city. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that > cold > > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond > too > > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > > inside or out. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: jasadell > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you > can > > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and > aim it > > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > > with no issues. > > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not > sure > > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They > will > > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to > them. > > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > > for years and years. > > > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > > your tank > > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > > Koi are cold water fish. > > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water > temperature > > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators > during > > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry > Heron or > > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > > one I make. > > > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi > fish > > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > > "Elle". > > > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > > questions... > > > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles > I've > > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the > needs > > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those > are > > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( > Been a > > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a > dog > > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay > cooler > > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > > move her intO? > > > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool > outside, > > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with > her > > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > > possible. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52233	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Desire' I'm not sure how a submersible deicer would keep the surface from freezing. Honestly, I purchased a pair of them for a two-tier pond at the school in the midwest where we have bitter cold winters and the Koi have been thriving for years. The deicers I purchased I think were only about $20, but they floated. Really, these de-icers only leave a very small opening around their perimeter. It's exclusively to let toxic gasses out. It by no means will keep a pond from freezing (we keep a pump running to keep the water moving, to keep ours from freezing solid). There are really bad days with literally feet of snow on inches of ice and I just see a small frisbee-shaped indentation in the snow where I know that they are working. Don't spend too much on it. Say, this may seem obvious, but be sure to plug the deicer and any other electric equipment into a dedicated GFI outlet, and avoid extension cords. I had GFI outlet installed right by the pond. It only cost about $100 for an electrician to do it. BTW, I agree with Ray (I think it was Ray). You should plan on a bigger pond and a pal or two for your Koi. Koi release a lot of waste. If/when you are in the planning stages of your new pond, post a message. I'd love to share some advice on Koi ponds. Peace, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Out of curiousity, what is your opinion about this pond de-icer? Its submersible. > > http://www.pondliner.com/product/thermo-pond_submersible_pond_de-icer/pond_de-icers > > The info everyone gave has been great, but a bit overwhelming. I'm still trying to sifle it all out. > > Desire' In LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:59 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. > > Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. > > If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces from freezing completely to allow crucial gas exchanges." By preventing the surface from freezing completely, they don't mean that the surface is almost ice-free, but that there is a small opening immediately surrounding the de-icer -- just enough to allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens the "More Information" tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep an area thawed and open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When scrolling down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient gas exchange." > > There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too hot" when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface frozen over. It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as fast as below freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is thermostatically controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 o already, and the thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance that a 500 watt (as advertised on the internet site) heater would overheat 140 gallons. Such a high wattage heater/de-icer should only be used as the outside weather approaches 32 o and lower, but as the air temperatures go down, the de-icer may be put in the pond but left unplugged until the weather reports inducate below freezing weather. > > Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your pond enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't advise keeping Elle out there at those times. > > I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are other fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose -- to allow for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no other reason (they can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally prevent surface freezing, which tells you that the remainder of water column stays quite cold). Deeper ponds have the advantage of thermocline though, which promotes a several degree rise in temperature at the bottom. > > For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer made by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a somewhat larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds and for ponds in harsher climates. There's also a very energy-efficient 100 Watt floating pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a good job on smaller ponds, maintaining a narrow ring of open water around them. I've sold hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally known Water Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all good brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of them being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune to failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune to failure (nor is little else made by man). > > If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest retailer to anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them at < sales@... > and typing in "Find a Retailer" in the subject line, then writing your message indicating your town or city. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold > > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too > > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > > inside or out. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: jasadell > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > > with no issues. > > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > > for years and years. > > > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > > your tank > > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > > Koi are cold water fish. > > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > > one I make. > > > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > > "Elle". > > > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > > questions... > > > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > > move her intO? > > > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > > possible. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52234	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

coming into this thread late but may I ask again---exactly how big is the tank we are talking about?   better late than never,   bill --- On Thu, 10/6/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: From: jasadell <jasadell@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 4:08 PM Well, they don't have a warranty, so I can't assume they have a return policy.  If they refuse to refund/replace the Johanni, then I wold be willing to give it back for the sake of my other tank mates and just call it a $9 lesson learned.  I'll try to sweeten the deal by trading in the 3" Acei for an additional 1" Acei (which seems fair).  How they handle this will determine my future business with them, so it's of their best interest do take the deal. I like the 6 Acei, 4 Yellow Labs, and 4 Peacocks option.  I can do without the cats and 33% water change takes no more time than a 15% or 20% water change.  I don't have to worry about (I forget the term) "resetting/unbalancing" the system with 33%? Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > ...I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from.  If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this.  > > You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola.  These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2").  This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. > > Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks.  Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%.  Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). > > As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank.  If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. > > Ray > >        > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff.  Thanks for being patient with me.  BTW you have a great memory. > > > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds.  I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst.  I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead.  I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go).  They seem similar. > > > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon.  That seems like way too much.  Of course I want as many as I can.  I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature.  I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > > > My oldest Acei is about 3".  The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each.  Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species.  Should  lose the johanni?  I know what your will say (too bad.  It's very cool) > > > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids?  Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > > > Thanks again, > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks.  I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested.  You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have.  This is especially important concerning the Acei.  Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species.  Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks.  Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed.  > > > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes.  They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer.  Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) .  I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni.  However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively.  They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group).  They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank.  I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased.  They were a deep red in the store tank.  They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract.  I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature.  No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now).  Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups.  I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52235	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: my goldfish

I just wanted to let everyone know my goldfish are doing good so far!! :) I am going to set up a 75gal for them. I am happy they are doing well!! They already seem to be "getting" to know me! They don't seem are nervous now & they are getting used to the way I feed them. I would give them some food in the day & they didn't seem interested ... Now, late in the evening, I tap the top lightly when I open the lid & they all start swimming around near the top knowing that I am going to feed them:) They don't all come to the top, but like 4. I am really happy about this:) thank you for all the useful information everyone shared with me. ~~Tara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52236	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: my goldfish

Hi Tara, Glad your Goldfish are doing well. The more they see of you the more they will get to know you & with a little patience they will take food from your hand, they are very intelligent & friendly fish. John On 7 October 2011 18:12, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > ** > > > I just wanted to let everyone know my goldfish are doing good so far!! :) I > am going to set up a 75gal for them. I am happy they are doing well!! > > They already seem to be "getting" to know me! They don't seem are nervous > now & they are getting used to the way I feed them. I would give them some > food in the day & they didn't seem interested ... Now, late in the evening, > I tap the top lightly when I open the lid & they all start swimming around > near the top knowing that I am going to feed them:) They don't all come to > the top, but like 4. I am really happy about this:) > > thank you for all the useful information everyone shared with me. > > ~~Tara > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52237	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids?

3-4 times daily for fry. Once daily should be sufficient for juveniles and adults. Anything under 1.5” including tail can be treated as fry and anything over that can be treated as a juvenile/adult. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Friday, October 07, 2011 8:47 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] How Often Should I be Feeding Cichlids? How often should I be feeding my cichlids? I have 10 juveniles now. Thanks, JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52238	From: jasadell	Date: 10/7/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

55 gallon --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > coming into this thread late but may I ask again---exactly how big > is the tank we are talking about? >   > better late than never, >   > bill > > --- On Thu, 10/6/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > From: jasadell <jasadell@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 4:08 PM > > > Well, they don't have a warranty, so I can't assume they have a return policy.  If they refuse to refund/replace the Johanni, then I wold be willing to give it back for the sake of my other tank mates and just call it a $9 lesson learned.  I'll try to sweeten the deal by trading in the 3" Acei for an additional 1" Acei (which seems fair).  How they handle this will determine my future business with them, so it's of their best interest do take the deal. > > I like the 6 Acei, 4 Yellow Labs, and 4 Peacocks option.  I can do without the cats and 33% water change takes no more time than a 15% or 20% water change.  I don't have to worry about (I forget the term) "resetting/unbalancing" the system with 33%? > > Thanks, > JD > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > JD, > > > ...I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from.  If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this.  > > > > You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola.  These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2").  This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. > > > > Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks.  Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%.  Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). > > > > As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank.  If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. > > > > Ray > > > >        > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff.  Thanks for being patient with me.  BTW you have a great memory. > > > > > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds.  I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst.  I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead.  I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go).  They seem similar. > > > > > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > > > > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > > > > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > > > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > > > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > > > > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon.  That seems like way too much.  Of course I want as many as I can.  I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature.  I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > > > > > My oldest Acei is about 3".  The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each.  Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > > > > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species.  Should  lose the johanni?  I know what your will say (too bad.  It's very cool) > > > > > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids?  Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks.  I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested.  You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have.  This is especially important concerning the Acei.  Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species.  Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks.  Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed.  > > > > > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes.  They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer.  Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) .  I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni.  However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively.  They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group).  They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank.  I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased.  They were a deep red in the store tank.  They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract.  I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature.  No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now).  Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups.  I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52239	From: jasadell	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

I should have looked further before my last reply. Funny thing is, my so-called sunburst peacocks look a lot like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/23630701@N03/2516661224/ . I wonder if the store had Ruby Reds mislabeled as Sunburst? That would be ironic, since I had set out to buy Ruby Reds in the first place. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Just going by the shape of the fish (and their finnage) in the photos, I'm sure you should ba able to distinguish what any Peacock looks like. Your present description just of noting the redder orange patch behind the gills (and with a different body color) tends to now point to this Sunburst Peacock you bought them as. This description is much clearer than what sounded like an overall red body color for these fish. As I've mentioned before, the fry and juveniles will almost always resemble the female in color in most Rift Lake Cichlids. The photos you saw on the 'Net, and the description I ran by you of a bright yellow-orange fish rather than these brown ones are of mature males, which are almost always much brighter than the juveniles; the redder-orange blotch is the tell-tale sign of this Peacock variety. Looks like you have what you bought them as afterall. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > You know I think you may be right. I have googled them and they all show a much lighter hue than mine. The ones I have have darkened to nearly brown with redder orange behind the gills. The images I see on Google for Red Zebra show them as brighter orange, so I don't think that is what I have. I need to look at them closer tonight to see. > > > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. > > > > > > Ray > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52240	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: Cichlid Compatibility

Hi JD,   I would follow along with what Ray is telling you.  As mentioned also, size and age of the fish plus chances for a larger tank are things to be considered.  You should also try and establish a basic rapport with your LPS as to returning fish.  Most will accommodate to a point as long as you don’t make a habit of it.  Telling them exactly what you are trying to do is also a big help.  If they don’t seem interested or want to bother; usually it follows that they are just interested in sales and I would shop somewhere else.   With very few exceptions, most fish, especially Cichlids, will react very differently between a 55-gallon tank and a 125 or 200 gallon tank.  Even some of the noted aggressive species will relax a bit in larger quarters.  With Cichlids always remember, there is no such thing as a big enough or too big of a tank.   Good Luck and please keep us posted,   bill --- On Fri, 10/7/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: From: jasadell <jasadell@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 11:15 PM 55 gallon --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > coming into this thread late but may I ask again---exactly how big > is the tank we are talking about? >   > better late than never, >   > bill > > --- On Thu, 10/6/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > From: jasadell <jasadell@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Cichlid Compatibility > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 4:08 PM > > > Well, they don't have a warranty, so I can't assume they have a return policy.  If they refuse to refund/replace the Johanni, then I wold be willing to give it back for the sake of my other tank mates and just call it a $9 lesson learned.  I'll try to sweeten the deal by trading in the 3" Acei for an additional 1" Acei (which seems fair).  How they handle this will determine my future business with them, so it's of their best interest do take the deal. > > I like the 6 Acei, 4 Yellow Labs, and 4 Peacocks option.  I can do without the cats and 33% water change takes no more time than a 15% or 20% water change.  I don't have to worry about (I forget the term) "resetting/unbalancing" the system with 33%? > > Thanks, > JD > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > JD, > > > ...I thought I understood you to say that you couldn't return any fish to this store you're starting to buy from.  If you can, I would have recommended you return the Johanni (I still recommend you try, even if their policy doesn't normally allow it) before this.  > > > > You would still need a minimum of 6 Acei (I still like 7 though, for best safety, but you don't have room enough for that many 7" fish, plus Yellow Labs, plus Cats), then you could have 4 Yellow Labs -- hoping 3 turn out to be females, and 2 S. petricola.  These catfish don't get as large (only 5 1/2") as S. multipunctata (6 1/2").  This would be tight, but doable provided you keep up with your weekly PWC's. > > > > Otherwise, go with 6 Acei, stay with only 4 Yellow Labs and then 4 Peacocks.  Tight again, but doable again -- provided you again keep up with the PWC's; this is imperitive, and probably at 33%.  Yes, I would trade the larger Acei in for one the same size as the others (see if you can pick a colored up one, which would more probably be a male, to replace this male you have). > > > > As for Johanni, unless you're limited to only the tank(s) you now have, you could always plan on getting them later, in a separate tank.  If you could add a 75 gallon tank at some time, you could move your present fish (with the additions) to this new tank and use the 55 gallon for the Johanni -- or maybe you'll see another species by then, which you like even better. > > > > Ray > > > >        > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Ray, this is good stuff.  Thanks for being patient with me.  BTW you have a great memory. > > > > > > You are absolutely right regarding the Sunburst vs the Ruby Reds.  I had went out intending to purchase Ruby Reds, but they only had Sunburst.  I had cash in hand and an intention to come home with fish, so I settled on the Sunburst instead.  I'm really ok with sticking with Sunburst exclusively (so far as peacocks go).  They seem similar. > > > > > > As well, I really like the Acei, so getting more of those is cool with me as well. > > > > > > So how does this sound for a game plan to get me back on track for acceptable, but not ideal, conditions: > > > > > > - Get 3 more Ps. Acei for a total of 6 Acei > > > - Get 1 more Yellow Lab for a total of 5 Yellow Labs > > > - Get 3 more Sunburst Peacocks for a total of 5 Sunburst Peacocks > > > > > > That's 16 fish ranging from 5-7" each in a 55 gallon.  That seems like way too much.  Of course I want as many as I can.  I suppose I could add a second filter as they mature.  I would prefer to do PWC only weekly. > > > > > > My oldest Acei is about 3".  The rest of the fish are all about 1" to 1.5" each.  Should I try to trade in the older Acei for one close to the age/size of the others? > > > > > > You didn't mention the single Johanni, specifically, although you did recommend that I stick to 3 species.  Should  lose the johanni?  I know what your will say (too bad.  It's very cool) > > > > > > Are Synodontis compatible with Cichlids?  Would this count as one of my 3 species? > > > > > > Thanks again, > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > > > I was quite surprised to learn that you've added these two Sunburst Peacocks.  I had expected that before you even thought about adding any more species, that you would fill out the groups of the two species you started with, as suggested.  You were advised to ultimately have from 6 to 7 individuals of any one species, so that when they grow to maturity, they wouldn't kill each other with their aggressive being limited to the very few individuals you now have.  This is especially important concerning the Acei.  Having only 3 individuals of this species is asking for a death warrant on the two smaller ones if your large one turns out to be a male -- which it already seems to be going by your description. > > > > > > > > Now, with these Sunburst Peacocks, I hope you realize that you will need at least 3 more of them at the very minimum, and preferable 5 more of them for best results in not having any beaten up (or killed), but then -- you won't have room enough in your 55 gallon for all the fish needed for peaceful coexistance of 3 species.  Also, you mentioned having an interest in the Ruby Red Peacocks.  Your now having Sunburst Peacock will now preclude your having the Ruby Reds unless you want a bunch of hybrids, as for sure, these two Peacock varieties will interbreed.  > > > > > > > > As there are other fish in your tank besides one species though, for adequate interaction between them all, you will probably be able to get away with a minimum number of the less aggressive species -- the Yellow Labs and these Sunburst Peacocks -- as the Acei will keep them on their toes.  They could be kept to 4 (total) specimens each, although 5 would be safer.  Still you WILL NEED at least 3 more Acei (preferably 4 more) if you don't want any killed, as any aggression they exert to others of their species will be substantial even though this species' location is not exessively aggressive, since they get to a substantial size (7"), and with only two others (and smaller) of them, they will frequently be targeted by the larger Acei. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > To the below Cichlids, I just added 2 Sunburst Peacocks and 1 Blue Johanni Cichlid (http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-89734-cichlid.jpg) .  I was a little reluctant to get the Johanni.  However, the place I purchased them from was not a general pet store; they sold aquaria exclusively.  They had a separate room just for Cichlids, claimed they had been in the business for several years, and seemed to know what they were talking about when I quizzed them on what I have learned (mostly from this group).  They reassured me that the Johanni was compatible with the others in the tank.  I'd like to hear an opinion or two on that. > > > > > > > > > > I couldn't really find a good image of the Peacocks that I purchased.  They were a deep red in the store tank.  They sort of dulled in color when I put them in my tank, but I figured they just needed to acclimate to the environment and water. > > > > > > > > > > The Johanni, however, is stunning in color and contract.  I really hope it gets along with everyone else when it and the others mature.  No warranty on the fish store (I gather that is usually the case with non-franchised stores) so I'll have to eat the cost if I have to remove it, or if it kills any of the others. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > ...Now my 55 gallon has 3 Acei and 4 Yellow labs (for now).  Boy, both of those choices look much better in groups.  I feel safer now about this mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > So I am going to stick exclusively with Lake Malawi Cichlids that I know for sure can exist together. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52241	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: test------without the A's, I hope??

I would follow along with what Ray is telling you.  As mentioned also, size and age of the fish plus chances for a larger tank are things to be considered.  You should also try and establish a basic rapport with your LPS as to returning fish.  Most will accommodate to a point as long as you don’t make a habit of it.  Telling them exactly what you are trying to do is also a big help.  If they don’t seem interested or want to bother; usually it follows that they are just interested in sales and I would shop somewhere else. With very few exceptions, most fish, especially Cichlids, will react very differently between a 55-gallon tank and a 125 or 200 gallon tank.  Even some of the noted aggressive species will relax a bit in larger quarters.  With Cichlids always remember, there is no such thing as a big enough or too big of a tank. Good Luck and please keep us posted, bill

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52242	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: test------without the A's, I hope??

I thought just the plain text======I give up! Ya Yahoo Mail!!! bill --- On Sat, 10/8/11, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > From: bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] test------without the A's, I hope?? > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, October 8, 2011, 10:58 AM > > I would follow along with what Ray is telling you.  As > mentioned also, > size and age of the fish plus chances for a larger tank are > things to be > considered.  You should also try and establish a basic > rapport with your > LPS as to returning fish.  Most will accommodate to a > point as long as you > don’t make a habit of it.  Telling them exactly > what you are trying to do > is also a big help.  If they don’t seem > interested or want to bother; usually it > follows that they are just interested in sales and I would > shop somewhere else. > > With very few exceptions, most fish, especially Cichlids, > will react very > differently between a 55-gallon tank and a 125 or 200 > gallon tank.  Even some > of the noted aggressive species will relax a bit in larger > quarters.  With Cichlids > always remember, there is no such thing as a big enough or > too big of a tank. > > Good Luck and please keep us posted, > > bill > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52243	From: Cee Jaye	Date: 10/8/2011
Subject: Re: my goldfish

Thanks for all the tips John! I didn't realize that these "little" feeder fish could actually LIVE a long time & grow so large!! I love watching my mom's pond fish, & I now know these "guys" are similar :) ~Tara On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 6:06 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...>wrote: > Hi Tara, > > Glad your Goldfish are doing well. The more they see of you the more they > will get to know you & with a little patience they will take food from your > hand, they are very intelligent & friendly fish. > > John > > > > On 7 October 2011 18:12, Cee Jaye <CeeJayee@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I just wanted to let everyone know my goldfish are doing good so far!! :) > I > > am going to set up a 75gal for them. I am happy they are doing well!! > > > > They already seem to be "getting" to know me! They don't seem are nervous > > now & they are getting used to the way I feed them. I would give them > some > > food in the day & they didn't seem interested ... Now, late in the > evening, > > I tap the top lightly when I open the lid & they all start swimming > around > > near the top knowing that I am going to feed them:) They don't all come > to > > the top, but like 4. I am really happy about this:) > > > > thank you for all the useful information everyone shared with me. > > > > ~~Tara > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52244	From: Laurie	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized blue angelfish to grow up a little. Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock hound.) As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young couple. But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so already I am starting out wrong. Are there any water parameters that are especially important for proper development of angelfish eggs? pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? What should I do for or with the water? Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I can see if the eggs are good? I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, the other about dollar size. Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. Please advise!!! What can I do, what SHOULD I do? I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of Omega One pellets with garlic. Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52245	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels laying

Just tested water like I do every Sunday. Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites are at zero, or so close I could not see any other color (I use the big API test kit). But I was astonished to find the pH of the water where the angels spawned is about 6.2-6.4. It has NEVER been other than 7.4 in all my weekly tests on 3 tanks. I was so surprised I washed the tubes extra well, tested the other two tanks, and then RE-tested the pH in spawning tank. The other two tanks are at 7.2-7.4 as usual. But the tank the eggs are in really IS a greatly different pH number than ever before. YIKES. Isn't one full number a BIG difference in pH??? About two weeks ago, I buried some small gelatin capsules with Osmocote time release fertilizer under the roots of three plants in each tank (a 30T and regular 30); the capsules were a gift from a friend who knows I love tanks planted like jungles. Yet the pH only changed in the one tank. The friend who gave me the capsules said it should not affect anything, and he is a young wizard about fish and aquarium plants (he sells aquatic plants online). Maybe that pH change explains the green bloom all over the glass and plants (is that diatoms?) So, is this pH incorrect for the angels, or did it possibly trigger the spawn? If it is not best for them, should I try to correct it, and if so, what is safest and most effective? The angelfish book I have says beginners DO too much, and that the hardest part of breeding angelfish is to keep your hands OFF. But since this was not a planned breeding in a well-prepared breeding tank (and I have not bred any fish since about 1967), I need to know what parameters these fish need and what to do to make corrections if what they have now is not the best for them and their future offspring. Both parents are tending the eggs carefully, if the tank were clear enough for photographs, they would make a lovely photo essay of parental devotion. Geez, the number of eggs has at least doubled, must be more than 100 now. The young couple enjoyed a lovely Sunday brunch of fresh live blackworms and stole a bit of the algae wafers I try to get to the poor corys. These angels LOVE the algae wafers, are they supposed to be part vegetarian? I want very much to make sure they have just what they need in terms of water, temperature, food, light, etc. But I need more hard data. Ray, Dawn, anyone? -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52246	From: haecklers	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

This forum is a great site on breeding angelfish and they have a lot of helpful members, including professional breeders. The Angelfish Forum II http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/index.php --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > hound.) > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > couple. > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > already I am starting out wrong. > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > What should I do for or with the water? > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > can see if the eggs are good? > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > the other about dollar size. > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > Please advise!!! > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52247	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels lay

I use osmocote and have experienced no change in pH. Nitrates should not be zero in a cycled tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Laurie (Mother Mastiff) Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 1:58 PM To: Laurie Cc: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs! Just tested water like I do every Sunday. Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites are at zero, or so close I could not see any other color (I use the big API test kit). But I was astonished to find the pH of the water where the angels spawned is about 6.2-6.4. It has NEVER been other than 7.4 in all my weekly tests on 3 tanks. I was so surprised I washed the tubes extra well, tested the other two tanks, and then RE-tested the pH in spawning tank. The other two tanks are at 7.2-7.4 as usual. But the tank the eggs are in really IS a greatly different pH number than ever before. YIKES. Isn't one full number a BIG difference in pH??? About two weeks ago, I buried some small gelatin capsules with Osmocote time release fertilizer under the roots of three plants in each tank (a 30T and regular 30); the capsules were a gift from a friend who knows I love tanks planted like jungles. Yet the pH only changed in the one tank. The friend who gave me the capsules said it should not affect anything, and he is a young wizard about fish and aquarium plants (he sells aquatic plants online). Maybe that pH change explains the green bloom all over the glass and plants (is that diatoms?) So, is this pH incorrect for the angels, or did it possibly trigger the spawn? If it is not best for them, should I try to correct it, and if so, what is safest and most effective? The angelfish book I have says beginners DO too much, and that the hardest part of breeding angelfish is to keep your hands OFF. But since this was not a planned breeding in a well-prepared breeding tank (and I have not bred any fish since about 1967), I need to know what parameters these fish need and what to do to make corrections if what they have now is not the best for them and their future offspring. Both parents are tending the eggs carefully, if the tank were clear enough for photographs, they would make a lovely photo essay of parental devotion. Geez, the number of eggs has at least doubled, must be more than 100 now. The young couple enjoyed a lovely Sunday brunch of fresh live blackworms and stole a bit of the algae wafers I try to get to the poor corys. These angels LOVE the algae wafers, are they supposed to be part vegetarian? I want very much to make sure they have just what they need in terms of water, temperature, food, light, etc. But I need more hard data. Ray, Dawn, anyone? -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52248	From: Bill	Date: 10/9/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

A friend of mine has at times 4 breeding pairs in a 90G along with a dozen other angels.. Don't panic.  Some parents will be awesome at protecting the eggs, some won't.  I'm fortunate to have had a pair of awesome parents that are very protective in my 125G with about 1.5 dozen angels.   Your pair seems to be pretty young to be breeding.  If the eggs are not clear but whitish, they probably weren't fertilized by a male that is old enough.  I've seen very few pairing up that young.   Algae... leave it alone.. Your hands in there are just another threat to the eggs.. .Keep a light on 7X24 so that the parents can keep watch over their clutch. Food... your worms are going to dwarf the fry once they are free-swimming.. about 5 days after laying.  They will go that first 5 days consuming an attached eggsack/yoke.  Then on, they need small bitsized portions.. First Bites by Hikari as well as decapsulated baby brine shrimp have worked well for me.  Perhaps a "professional" breeder will chime in but this has been what has worked for me.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 9, 2011 4:25 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!   This forum is a great site on breeding angelfish and they have a lot of helpful members, including professional breeders. The Angelfish Forum II http://www.angelfish.net/VBulletin/index.php --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > hound.) > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > couple. > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > already I am starting out wrong. > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > What should I do for or with the water? > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > can see if the eggs are good? > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > the other about dollar size. > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > Please advise!!! > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52249	From: ScottW	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

This heater looks perfect. I have family in LA and I doubt you have anything to worry about. Your winters are never very cold. I am in KS and the concept of cold here, compared to LA, is very different. If I remember correctly, you have very few days when it even gets below 32 degrees F. I had two ponds in KS that we dug deeper than the frost line. We never heated either of them and never had fish die. I would walk on the ice, but apparently the gases were still exchanging on the edges. Maybe someone has an idea as to how this was possible. Scott --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Out of curiousity, what is your opinion about this pond de-icer? Its submersible. > > http://www.pondliner.com/product/thermo-pond_submersible_pond_de-icer/pond_de-icers > > The info everyone gave has been great, but a bit overwhelming. I'm still trying to sifle it all out. > > Desire' In LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:59 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for Elle as her pond is too shallow to allow for any higher temperatures when the air is cold enough to inducing icing over. The cold air will take away all the heat except for that small area immediately surrounding the heater. BTW, these pond heaters/de-icers are designed to float on the surface -- they are NOT submersed AT ALL, as are our aquarium heaters. > > Despite that some of these pond de-icers are also called "pond heaters," they are not designed to heat the entire pond, but only to keep a small hole in the ice -- as I just previously mentioned in my last post on this thread. > > If one were to read the site that your link brings us to for the Laguna pond de-icer, it will be seen that it reads, that it "prevents pond surfaces from freezing completely to allow crucial gas exchanges." By preventing the surface from freezing completely, they don't mean that the surface is almost ice-free, but that there is a small opening immediately surrounding the de-icer -- just enough to allow the gases to be exchanged. When one opens the "More Information" tab on their site, it says their de-icer "will keep an area thawed and open in the pond," which is what they mean by this. When scrolling down on this cite, it says The primary function of a de-icer is to maintain a small opening at the surface of the pond to allow efficient gas exchange." > > There is absolutely no danger of the pond being overheated or "too hot" when running this de-icer in weather that has the pond surface frozen over. It just doesn't have the capacity to heat the water as fast as below freezing weather will take the heat away, and it is thermostatically controlled. But unless the heater is plugged in at 60 o already, and the thermostat sticks, there then would be the chance that a 500 watt (as advertised on the internet site) heater would overheat 140 gallons. Such a high wattage heater/de-icer should only be used as the outside weather approaches 32 o and lower, but as the air temperatures go down, the de-icer may be put in the pond but left unplugged until the weather reports inducate below freezing weather. > > Still, this "heater"/de-icer will not keep the shallow bottom of your pond enough above 32 o when the surface ices over, so I wouldn't advise keeping Elle out there at those times. > > I'll mention here, for others having deeper ponds, that there are other fine producers of pond de-icers intended just for this purpose -- to allow for an opening in the ice for gas exchanges -- and for no other reason (they can't keep the pond itself warmed up to totally prevent surface freezing, which tells you that the remainder of water column stays quite cold). Deeper ponds have the advantage of thermocline though, which promotes a several degree rise in temperature at the bottom. > > For other similar de-icers, there is a 1250 Watt floating pond de-icer made by Farm Innovators, called the "Ice Chaser," which does create a somewhat larger hole in the ice, and which is offered for larger ponds and for ponds in harsher climates. There's also a very energy-efficient 100 Watt floating pond de-icer made by K&H Mfg., call the "Thermo-Pond Heater," which does a good job on smaller ponds, maintaining a narrow ring of open water around them. I've sold hundreds of each when I was still managing the nationally known Water Gardening Supplier I've discussed in the past. These are all good brands, but even so, any of them can fail -- but usually not until after a few years in service. I always had a very small percentage of them being returned each season because of this, so they're not immune to failure, just as even the best of aquarium heaters are not immune to failure (nor is little else made by man). > > If Drs Foster & Smith doesn't have the K&H de-icer, the nearest retailer to anyone needing their heater can be found by emailing them at < sales@... > and typing in "Find a Retailer" in the subject line, then writing your message indicating your town or city. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > I don't see why that wouldn't work for your pond in the winter. It says > > it works for below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, so if it doesn't get that cold > > in LA in the winter you should be safe with the heater running through > > the winter. Keep a thermometer handy to check the water with, just to > > make sure it (somehow) doesn't get too hot either. I'm not sure how > > powerful the heater is, and if it's overpowered might keep your pond too > > warm when the temps aren't too cold in LA. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/2/2011 5:04 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > > > http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21114 > > > > > > Would something like this work for my 140 gallon pre-formed pond or > > > would I need something different? (Its, from what I can tell, one of > > > the more top of the line pond de-icers) > > > > > > I'm trying to find the most economical route to go with wintering my > > > koi fish Elle. If it costs less to winter her outdoors (the coldest > > > month in South Louisiana is January and we do get SOME freezes, but > > > not like you guys in the Northern states do), then I would rather do > > > that and save the money I'd spend (about 4 hundred dollars) for an > > > indoor aquarium and just put that all toward her larger pond for the > > > spring. Of course, overall though, I want what would be best for her- > > > inside or out. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: jasadell > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 2:17 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > > > Hey finally a subject that I can actually help out with. I had a 1600 > > > gallon Koi pond at my house in the midwest (where we have really cold > > > winters) and I care for a 3000 gallon koi pond at a local school. > > > > > > First, don't feel like you have to winter the koi indoors, given that > > > you can keep the water from free from freezing solid, and that you can > > > keep a hole open in the ice to let gasses out. If you run a pump and > > > filter during the warm seasons (which you should), then see if the > > > pump can run in the winter, then disconnect form the filter and aim it > > > up like a mini fountain. I had a pump that was not very industrial, > > > but ran through winters that got well below zero for years and years > > > with no issues. > > > Another option (and this may be your best bet) is to purchase small > > > lillipad-sized heater to float on the surface to keep a hole in the > > > surface. Now that will not keep the whole pond from freezing; not sure > > > how cold it gets there. Don't feed them once the snow flies. They will > > > go dormant and not eat all winter. > > > > > > If you plan to winter the Koi outdoors, then feed it fatty foods in > > > the fall until the snow flies. > > > > > > Koi are cold water fish, so 60 is probably like a heated pool to them. > > > Mine lived in the pond with a 4" hole in the ice during winter months > > > for years and years. > > > > > > If you choose to winter it indoors (again, I really don't think you > > > need to), here are a few pointers: > > > * Bring some substrate or rocks, or sticks, etc form your pond to put > > > in the tank. That way the same bacteria in your pool will colonize in > > > your tank > > > * You do not want or need a heater for your indoor tank. Like I said, > > > Koi are cold water fish. > > > * Koi are waste machines. You can get by with a 6" Koi in a 55 gallon > > > aquarium for the winter, as long as you do about 20% water changes > > > weekly, including substrate vacuuming. Even then, you will want to > > > test the water frequently. I had a 6" Koi in a 55 3 years with no > > > issues. The challenge I had was in keeping the Nitrates down (end of > > > the Nitrogen cycle). > > > * You can feed the Koi the same food you do in the winter. > > > > > > So far as when to move back outside, avoid a drastic water temperature > > > shock. When your pond is about the same temp as your aquarium, do it > > > them. Koi are very hardy. > > > > > > BTW (bonus information) with a 2' pond, watch out for predators during > > > the warm months. Add places for the Koi to hide when a hungry Heron or > > > Raccoon comes by. > > > > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > > > I've been reading the posts for awhile, but this is the very first > > > one I make. > > > > > > > > I have a koi fish that I have some questions about. I got a koi fish > > > back in April. It was still pretty small when I got it so for this > > > spring/summer, I have housed my koi in a 140 gallon pond outside. I > > > live in the Deep South (Louisiana) and our winters do not get very > > > cold- and when they do, its not for long), but we do get ice up > > > sometimes in the winter. My koi fish's pond is not quite 2 feet deep, > > > so I know that I will have to winter her indoors. I say her because > > > since I don't know how to tell the sex of koi fish, I have called her > > > "Elle". > > > > > > > > I have been keeping an eye on water temperature and have some > > > questions... > > > > > > > > When would be the best time to move her indoors? (Most articles I've > > > read said to do it before the water temp. reaches 60 degrees- its > > > about 80 right now) > > > > > > > > Since the water temp is still pretty warm right now, do I continue > > > feeding her the summer diet? > > > > > > > > When she moves indoors, what size aquarium would best suit the needs > > > of a koi? She is not full grown and maybe about 4-6 inches long at > > > this point. Would a 55-75 gallon suffice? I'm concerned that those are > > > the biggest size aquariums my budget can handle at this time. ( Been a > > > year with some very high vet bills with my 2 parrots, rabbit and a dog > > > that had 3 surgeries for mast cell tumor) Should her water stay cooler > > > or would I need to add a heater in the aquarium while she is wintered > > > indoors ? When she moves back outside next Spring (she will likely be > > > getting a bigger pond then as well), what is the best water temp to > > > move her intO? > > > > > > > > While she is inside: What diet would I give her and how often would > > > I feed her? I know when its winter and the water temp is cool outside, > > > you stop feeding after the water temp gets too cool. I assume with her > > > being inside though, it will be different. > > > > > > > > Sorry for all the questions. As you might be able to tell, I'm very > > > new to koi fish and want to make sure I'm giving "Elle" the best care > > > possible. > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > > > > > Desire' in the South, speaking for Elle the koi fish > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52250	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

>>> Food... your worms are going to dwarf the fry once they are >>> free-swimming.. about 5 days after laying. They will go that >>> first 5 days consuming an attached eggsack/yoke. Then on, they >>> need small bitesized portions.. First Bites by Hikari as well as >>> decapsulated baby brine shrimp have worked well for me. Perhaps a >>> "professional" breeder will chime in but this has been what has >>> worked for me. Bill in Va. Bill, thank you! I assume First Bites is a dry food and ditto the decapsulated baby brines, so you had success without having to raise brine shrimp live to feed baby angels? That would be great! I am moving around the end of the month, so the timing COULD be better. Anything that makes it easier is a blessing. I am wondering if these babies are a bit older than the shop had guessed. Of the 4 I relocated to the other 30g tank, I have a definite pair and a pretty likely to be another pair (three pair out of six babies, usually my luck runs hard in the OTHER direction, LOL!) If they are all feeling the need to pair, they must be getting CLOSE to proper breeding age, unless other factors can trigger such behavior. Surely feeding live blackworms is not enough to trigger spawning in fish too young to actually begin spawning? Only time will tell if the eggs are fertile, but twice I observed the male fertilizing the eggs. Both parents have strong instincts. I don't know why or how the nitrate and nitrite levels would be wrong (what should they be in a cycled tank?), I had not changed water in two weeks (only added some), but the tanks ARE very heavily planted, like mini jungles. They also have a pair of emerald corys and several snails each for cleanup. I am still upset by the odd 6.4 pH, never had anything like that, pH changing by a full number when there appears to be no reason for it. -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52251	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

pH will drop if there isn't enough KH in the water to keep the pH buffered at your normal level. Are you doing anything different in that tank than you are in your others? Do you know what your KH is right out of the tap? I ran across another discussion on another forum (for planted tanks), that I often ask questions on about my Walstad setup tanks (Diana Walstad likes to frequent these forums). I will post the link, it might have something useful for you, especially if you are using CO2. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/27522-low-kh-ph-crash.html Amber On 10/10/2011 4:07 AM, Laurie (Mother Mastiff) wrote: > > >>> Food... your worms are going to dwarf the fry once they are > >>> free-swimming.. about 5 days after laying. They will go that > >>> first 5 days consuming an attached eggsack/yoke. Then on, they > >>> need small bitesized portions.. First Bites by Hikari as well as > >>> decapsulated baby brine shrimp have worked well for me. Perhaps a > >>> "professional" breeder will chime in but this has been what has > >>> worked for me. Bill in Va. > > Bill, thank you! I assume First Bites is a dry food and ditto the > decapsulated baby brines, so you had success without having to raise > brine shrimp live to feed baby angels? That would be great! I am > moving around the end of the month, so the timing COULD be better. > Anything that makes it easier is a blessing. > > I am wondering if these babies are a bit older than the shop had > guessed. > > Of the 4 I relocated to the other 30g tank, I have a definite pair > and a pretty likely to be another pair (three pair out of six babies, > usually my luck runs hard in the OTHER direction, LOL!) If they are > all feeling the need to pair, they must be getting CLOSE to proper > breeding age, unless other factors can trigger such behavior. > > Surely feeding live blackworms is not enough to trigger spawning in > fish too young to actually begin spawning? > > Only time will tell if the eggs are fertile, but twice I observed > the male fertilizing the eggs. Both parents have strong instincts. > > I don't know why or how the nitrate and nitrite levels would be wrong > (what should they be in a cycled tank?), I had not changed water in > two weeks (only added some), but the tanks ARE very heavily planted, > like mini jungles. They also have a pair of emerald corys and > several snails each for cleanup. > > I am still upset by the odd 6.4 pH, never had anything like that, pH > changing by a full number when there appears to be no reason for it. > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso__ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52252	From: jasadell	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Sunburst or Ruby Reds?

OK I posted a couple of pics of my so-called Sunburst Peackcocks. Don't these look rather like Ruby Reds? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/2100774798/pic/list Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > I should have looked further before my last reply. Funny thing is, my so-called sunburst peacocks look a lot like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/23630701@N03/2516661224/ . I wonder if the store had Ruby Reds mislabeled as Sunburst? That would be ironic, since I had set out to buy Ruby Reds in the first place. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Just going by the shape of the fish (and their finnage) in the photos, I'm sure you should ba able to distinguish what any Peacock looks like. Your present description just of noting the redder orange patch behind the gills (and with a different body color) tends to now point to this Sunburst Peacock you bought them as. This description is much clearer than what sounded like an overall red body color for these fish. As I've mentioned before, the fry and juveniles will almost always resemble the female in color in most Rift Lake Cichlids. The photos you saw on the 'Net, and the description I ran by you of a bright yellow-orange fish rather than these brown ones are of mature males, which are almost always much brighter than the juveniles; the redder-orange blotch is the tell-tale sign of this Peacock variety. Looks like you have what you bought them as afterall. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > You know I think you may be right. I have googled them and they all show a much lighter hue than mine. The ones I have have darkened to nearly brown with redder orange behind the gills. The images I see on Google for Red Zebra show them as brighter orange, so I don't think that is what I have. I need to look at them closer tonight to see. > > > > > > JD > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > JD, > > > > > > > > Noting your new "Sunburst" Peacocks were deep red in the store, I need to tell you that Sunburst Peacocks are known as being yellowish-orange (solid, no barring) with a large area ("shoulder") of deep orange behind the gill plates. You may have one of the other varieties of many, of a different Peacock morph. As varieties come and go in the stores, I'd advise your getting several more of them while yiou can -- if you have the room - and if you have the resources to do so. It may be hard trying to find more of this same variety later. You may have also accidentally received Red Zebras (Metriaclima estherae) if their display tank previously held them and the store owner didn't remove that label yet. Try Googling that and see hope it compares to your fish. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52253	From: safirezprincess@yahoo.com	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Wintering Koi indoors

Scott The pond edges could have moving water due to wind and moving fish, and being the most sheltered areas of the pond. This could leave some areas open just a bit to allow for exchange of gasses. Bren Connected by DROID on Verizon Wireless -----Original message----- From: ScottW <diyscott@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 10:36:36 GMT+00:00 Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors This heater looks perfect. I have family in LA and I doubt you have anything to worry about. Your winters are never very cold. I am in KS and the concept of cold here, compared to LA, is very different. If I remember correctly, you have very few days when it even gets below 32 degrees F. I had two ponds in KS that we dug deeper than the frost line. We never heated either of them and never had fish die. I would walk on the ice, but apparently the gases were still exchanging on the edges. Maybe someone has an idea as to how this was possible. Scott --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Out of curiousity, what is your opinion about this pond de-icer? Its submersible. > > http://www.pondliner.com/product/thermo-pond_submersible_pond_de-icer/pond_de -icers > > The info everyone gave has been great, but a bit overwhelming. I'm still trying to sifle it all out. > > Desire' In LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2011 7:59 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Wintering Koi indoors > > > > Hi Amber and Desire', > > Yes, the Laguna Power Heater 500 Watt (floating) Pond De-icer will keep an open hole in the ice, but as I already stated, as the rest of the pond will be very close to 32 o if your surface ices up, it will be too stressful for Elle as her pond i [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52254	From: Bill	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Sounds like you have perfect water conditions (ph and hardness) for Discus!.. Celebrate don't fight it!.. Bill in Va  ________________________________ From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:07 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!   >>> Food... your worms are going to dwarf the fry once they are >>> free-swimming.. about 5 days after laying. They will go that >>> first 5 days consuming an attached eggsack/yoke. Then on, they >>> need small bitesized portions.. First Bites by Hikari as well as >>> decapsulated baby brine shrimp have worked well for me. Perhaps a >>> "professional" breeder will chime in but this has been what has >>> worked for me. Bill in Va. Bill, thank you! I assume First Bites is a dry food and ditto the decapsulated baby brines, so you had success without having to raise brine shrimp live to feed baby angels? That would be great! I am moving around the end of the month, so the timing COULD be better. Anything that makes it easier is a blessing. I am wondering if these babies are a bit older than the shop had guessed. Of the 4 I relocated to the other 30g tank, I have a definite pair and a pretty likely to be another pair (three pair out of six babies, usually my luck runs hard in the OTHER direction, LOL!) If they are all feeling the need to pair, they must be getting CLOSE to proper breeding age, unless other factors can trigger such behavior. Surely feeding live blackworms is not enough to trigger spawning in fish too young to actually begin spawning? Only time will tell if the eggs are fertile, but twice I observed the male fertilizing the eggs. Both parents have strong instincts. I don't know why or how the nitrate and nitrite levels would be wrong (what should they be in a cycled tank?), I had not changed water in two weeks (only added some), but the tanks ARE very heavily planted, like mini jungles. They also have a pair of emerald corys and several snails each for cleanup. I am still upset by the odd 6.4 pH, never had anything like that, pH changing by a full number when there appears to be no reason for it. -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52255	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Hi Laurie, sorry it took me so long to get here to read your post and chime in for you... First thing I will say is that I agree to leave the algae alone. It might not look the prettiest but it can be beneficial for 2 reasons... 1. it is a plant and will help to keep nitrate down as it is produced, and 2. its a great way to culture natural food supply inside the tank for the fry when they are old enough to start eating. I also agree with leaving the light on while the eggs are in the tank and the fry are small. I have 2 light fixtures over my tank and only the brighter one gets turned off at night until the fry are about penny size or larger. When I do begin turning off light at night I then have a dim room light on near the tank so the level of darkness at night is gradual. I learned the hard way that just suddenly turning it off at night spooks the fry something awful and I almost lost one when it went racing into the side of the tank when the light went off. ALL changes should be slow and gradual. The next thing I'd like to say is that water changes should be minimal to not at all for at least the next few days. My successful pair are in a 90 gallon tank with an 11 yr old red tail shark. They do great, I currently have a huge spawn (100+ fry) that are dime to nickel size, and everyone coexists fine. If you find a reason to need a water change in the next few days there are a few rules of thumb I follow in my tank without issue... always do a very small change, never more than 5 - 10% at a time, and always do it on the opposite end of the tank from the pair and their eggs. This will help to avoid any extra disturbance to the pair and their eggs and it will help to avoid any drastic changes in water chemistry right around the eggs. The other reason for very small changes in your situation is because of the pH fall. You don't want to change anything drastically at this point. I have to disagree with the advice about a bare tank. My pair won't spawn in a bare tank, only when its fully planted. (yes, I have tried that many times with multiple different pairs, none would ever spawn in a bare tank). My tanks are all very heavily planted and when I have fry I tend to get hair algae growing (from the amount of baby brine I feed). I pull out the excess amounts of hair algae so it doesn't kill the plants, but I do leave plenty in there to help culture natural food until the fry are old enough to start taking exclusively crumbled flakes. This tends to be 2 - 3 months after hatching. I only feed my fry crumbled flake and newly hatched baby brine, and contrary to what some will say about multiple feedings in a given day, I only feed once/day from hatching through adulthood. My fry thrive and grow quickly. Once my fry are free swimming and eating I go back to my regular maintenance routine of 30% water change twice/wk and have never had a problem. I use a sponge over the intake of the siphon/python I use for water changes to avoid sucking up the fry, but the water changes have never bothered them. The parents get a bit upset about the activity around and in the tank when I do this, but they tend to just herd the fry to the other end until I am finished. I don't know what kind of filter you're running on this tank, but if you don't currently have a sponge over the intake of the filter you will need to do this before the eggs hatch. Newly hatched fry are not strong enough swimmers to avoid getting sucked up and the parents will move them around the tank on a regular basis once they go free swimming. If for some reason (I can think of a few) your first spawn doesn't hatch/survive, don't worry too much, the parent fish will spawn again soon enough. It usually takes new parents a few tries (or more) to get it right, and if they are young they may not yet be fertile (as was mentioned already by someone else). Obviously your parent fish like the environment you've created for them. For this reason alone I wouldn't change it. Moving them or altering their environment (both decor and water chemistry) may slow down or stop future spawning. A lot of people forget to listen to their fish... the fish will tell you and show you what they want and need. Watch and pay close attention, let them dictate their needs as much as possible. Every pair is different. One last mention I can think of for you before I go. If you have snails in the tank, particularly rams horn snails, keep a close eye on the eggs. Rams horns love to chow down on angelfish eggs and not all parents know how to knock them off. I have 1 pair that do and one pair that doesn't, so I use a piece of rigid tubing and slowly go in and do it myself. Its tedious work but if I don't do it, the snails will consume all of the eggs within a few hours. My successful pair watched and threw a fit when I first started knocking the snails down out of the eggs, but they learned what I was doing and eventually began doing it themselves. (fish are smarter than people often give them credit for) If you have more questions please ask. I will offer all I can in way of help. I'm sure when Ray gets here he will have advice of his own to offer or add to what I've already said. I will post a picture of my 90 gallon with the parents and fry (and shark) a little later, I need to retrieve it from my other pc first. Check my album a little later for a new pic (taken just a few days ago). Good luck to you and keep us posted! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > hound.) > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > couple. > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > already I am starting out wrong. > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > What should I do for or with the water? > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > can see if the eggs are good? > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > the other about dollar size. > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > Please advise!!! > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52256	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Laurie, I uploaded a new photo of my angelfish 90 gallon (its a bit of a mess right now, the shark pulled up a lot of plants last night and I haven't put them back down yet), its just waiting for moderator approval. This is just an idea for you of what my angels prefer for spawning... if I change it or lessen the amount of rock work or plants in the tank they stop spawning until I put it all back. When I leave them alone except for routine maintenance, they spawn regularly... within a week of removing all fry. They're doing a great job and at times will rearrange the tank themselves to suit their purposes. I had a lot of fun watching them moving the plants around until it was to their liking. I only rearrange plants if the shark pulls them up or if the plant growth rate warrants rearranging or trimming. I yank out hair algae if it gets excessive, and that tends to only happen when I feed heavily with baby brine during the first couple of months. I could keep it more at bay if I did extra water changes, however, the fry like to pick through it for natural food supply, so I leave it alone as long as its not choking out any plants. When I remove a spawn of fry from the tank I give it a good 35% water change, gravel vac if needed, and the hair algae goes away until I start feeding new fry again with baby brine. I hope this helps you... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > hound.) > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > couple. > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > already I am starting out wrong. > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > What should I do for or with the water? > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > can see if the eggs are good? > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > the other about dollar size. > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > Please advise!!! > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52257	From: Karlene	Date: 10/10/2011
Subject: Weird Fish Question

OK, I'll admit it; before I joined this list I thought of fish as sort of living decorations . . . I mean, obviously they needed a certain level of care, but I didn't think of them as having any sort of social structure or anything. I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, but now I see fish in a different way. So, that leads me to the weird question . . . can you train a fish to do anything? I don't mean like swim to the top when you turn the light on, but actually do "tricks?" If so, what kind of fish would be the most trainable, and what could you teach them to do. I've thought of swimming in circles, following something through the water, and swimming through a hoop in the water. I'd love to be enlightened! ~Karlene -- ~Karlene TarKom Labradors www.tarkom.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52258	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Weird Fish Question

Hi Karlene, I think you will like this & the associated videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fslALpdsWZk John*<o)))< * On 10 October 2011 23:35, Karlene <tarkom@...> wrote: > ** > > > OK, I'll admit it; before I joined this list I thought of fish as sort of > living decorations . . . I mean, obviously they needed a certain level of > care, but I didn't think of them as having any sort of social structure or > anything. I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly, but now I see fish > in a different way. > > So, that leads me to the weird question . . . can you train a fish to do > anything? I don't mean like swim to the top when you turn the light on, but > actually do "tricks?" If so, what kind of fish would be the most trainable, > and what could you teach them to do. I've thought of swimming in circles, > following something through the water, and swimming through a hoop in the > water. > > I'd love to be enlightened! > ~Karlene > > -- > ~Karlene > TarKom Labradors > www.tarkom.com > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52259	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Hey Dawn your photo isn't there for some reason. There's nothing pending, and nothing under your folder. It shows your folder as modified last, but no picture there. Weird! Anyways, just thought I'd let you know. I also keep my pair of angel's in a planted tank. They (so far) haven't not successfully raised any fry, but they managed to hatch wigglers (Either they or something else ate the free swimming fry, this was in a community tank). I was leaving the lights on like normal during the day with a light on behind the tank (for light to see by), but apparently it wasn't bright enough. As something (snails or platty's) was eating the wigglers/eggs at night. Mom is SUPER protective of her eggs, and won't even let dad help her protect them. She beats him up if he comes out of hiding in the plants! Horrible mate, LOL. Anyways I left the lights on 24/7 this time around to see if mom can keep the babies alive until they hatch. So far I have about 20+ wigglers all attached to a broad leafed plant. There are a bunch of un-fertilized eggs and I worry that they will contaminate the wigglers. Should I leave them be or try to remove them and upset mom? I'm trying the 'hands off' approach right now, and I have left the fuzzy eggs in there, but added some pima-fix to hopefully keep the fertilized eggs from catching the fungus. Was this the right thing to do? I'm hoping they will actually manage to raise their babies this time (or at least mom will by herself since she's so particular). The reason I have platy's in the tank is because the Angel's stopped spawning when I had ONLY them in the tank, for some reason they like to have other fish to chase, and won't spawn without them. And since I have so many platy's I just put about 5-6 in there with them to keep the Angel's busy. Then they started spawning again, and every month or so they spawn. Amber On 10/10/2011 2:24 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Laurie, I uploaded a new photo of my angelfish 90 gallon (its a bit of > a mess right now, the shark pulled up a lot of plants last night and I > haven't put them back down yet), its just waiting for moderator > approval. This is just an idea for you of what my angels prefer for > spawning... if I change it or lessen the amount of rock work or plants > in the tank they stop spawning until I put it all back. When I leave > them alone except for routine maintenance, they spawn regularly... > within a week of removing all fry. They're doing a great job and at > times will rearrange the tank themselves to suit their purposes. I had > a lot of fun watching them moving the plants around until it was to > their liking. I only rearrange plants if the shark pulls them up or if > the plant growth rate warrants rearranging or trimming. > > I yank out hair algae if it gets excessive, and that tends to only > happen when I feed heavily with baby brine during the first couple of > months. I could keep it more at bay if I did extra water changes, > however, the fry like to pick through it for natural food supply, so I > leave it alone as long as its not choking out any plants. When I > remove a spawn of fry from the tank I give it a good 35% water change, > gravel vac if needed, and the hair algae goes away until I start > feeding new fry again with baby brine. > > I hope this helps you... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > > hound.) > > > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > > couple. > > > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > > already I am starting out wrong. > > > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > > > What should I do for or with the water? > > > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > > can see if the eggs are good? > > > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > > the other about dollar size. > > > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > > Please advise!!! > > > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > > > -- > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > > - Pablo Picasso > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52260	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Thanks Amber, I just uploaded the picture again, we'll see if it goes through. Again it said it was waiting for approval. You bring up an interesting point with the dither fish in an angel tank to help with spawning... both of my breeding pairs have the same issue. If they're in the tank alone they refuse to spawn. I have rotated a great many fish around from tank to tank to find just the right combination that works for each of my pairs. One pair resides in the 90 gallon with the red tail shark, the other pair in a 65 gallon with 3 gold white clouds. Some fish will eat eggs and fry, some won't bother them at all. My shark, obviously is a predator, but with just him to fend off in a fully planted tank, the parent angels move plants around on their own when they are ready to spawn and they work together to keep the shark in check. He has learned not to bother the fry and most of the time he actually swims around with them with the parents standing guard in case they feel some tension, then they chase him back to his end of the tank. By the time my fry are dime size they actually will chase him off by grouping together and attacking him. Its pretty interesting to watch the amount of organization and communication that goes on in that tank. Mom and dad both raise the fry together, often splitting the spawn between them into 2 different locations in the tank and then taking turns with the groups. My other pair has the gold white clouds as their dither fish and the white clouds could care less what the angels are doing, if there are eggs or fry, etc. The white clouds keep to themselves and do their own thing. The female in this tank has gotten better with her parenting, but the male is still eating eggs. I am working on trying a surrogacy with the 2 pairs, allowing 1 pair to raise the eggs from the other pair, but they haven't yet spawned close enough together for me to attempt it. I have done a lot of tracking of their cycles so I can attempt to induce spawning of one within a day of the other, but space is still an issue while I'm continuing to rotate tanks around my house. Soon my 120 gallon will be moved and I will have another tank available as a nursery, which will allow for this. In regards to the fungus'd eggs... I leave mine alone. I haven't lost any wigglers that way yet. I noticed that as they hatched close to any of the fungus'd eggs the parents moved the wigglers to another location to keep them safe. Once all of the good eggs have hatched they let the snails eat their fill of the fungus'd eggs until the spawning spot is again cleaned off completely. Any time I have ever tried to move wigglers on my own I have lost them all. Leaving them alone was the difference between success and failure for me. Snails WILL eat wigglers, just so you are aware of that. I have battled snails in the 65 gallon tank, plucking them when they move in for feeding. I did move a trio of botia striata loaches into that tank to help bring down the snail population, but had to move them out again to prevent them from eating the eggs/fry. I also normally pluck all snails I can find/reach in that tank on a weekly basis to keep the population down... but it only takes 1 or 2 small snails to devour all of the eggs or fry within a day or so if left alone. Try reducing the number of platy's in your tank to only 2 or 3 and see if that helps any. Keep in mind that the more fish the parents have to fend off the less likely they are to be successful. When my pair in the 90 was just getting started I had barbs in the tank with them... 2 gold and 5 cherry barbs, along with 1 very old red/blue columbian tetra and the shark. It took me months of watching each spawn to see who was eating what and it turned out that the tetra and barbs were ambushing the adult angels... a couple would move in to distract the parents while the others went in to eat the eggs. Then the fish would rotate so everyone got a turn at eating eggs. The organization between the barbs was simply amazing to watch. I moved the barbs and tetra out of the tank one species at a time until only the shark was remaining. The parents can handle the shark if its only him and nobody to lead them away, so it has remained that way for months now and I've had 2 successful spawns without issues since then. I can't stress enough that watching your fish is the best way to see where the problems are and then to eliminate them one at a time. Eventually you will find enough ways to help the parent fish to be successful (provided you have enough space to move out the predators). Every pair is so different, there is no one method that works for all. Keep trying. Angels will breed for years once they get started provided their environment stays proper for spawning. This gives you a lot of time to figure out how to help them. If/when you need to do anything in the tank while they have eggs or fry, move SLOW. As much as they will try to chase you away, they also will learn from the things you do to help them, such as mine did with plucking the snails from the eggs. They watch and they are very capable of learning. Also, be patient. It can take them a long time to learn to get it right. Some never do, but others eventually catch on and in a matter of 1 spawn can go from eating everything to being perfect parents. Once they get it right they seem to be fine with every spawn after that. Good luck to you with yours... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Hey Dawn your photo isn't there for some reason. There's nothing > pending, and nothing under your folder. It shows your folder as modified > last, but no picture there. Weird! > Anyways, just thought I'd let you know. > > I also keep my pair of angel's in a planted tank. They (so far) haven't > not successfully raised any fry, but they managed to hatch wigglers > (Either they or something else ate the free swimming fry, this was in a > community tank). I was leaving the lights on like normal during the day > with a light on behind the tank (for light to see by), but apparently it > wasn't bright enough. As something (snails or platty's) was eating the > wigglers/eggs at night. > Mom is SUPER protective of her eggs, and won't even let dad help her > protect them. She beats him up if he comes out of hiding in the plants! > Horrible mate, LOL. > Anyways I left the lights on 24/7 this time around to see if mom can > keep the babies alive until they hatch. So far I have about 20+ wigglers > all attached to a broad leafed plant. There are a bunch of un-fertilized > eggs and I worry that they will contaminate the wigglers. Should I leave > them be or try to remove them and upset mom? I'm trying the 'hands off' > approach right now, and I have left the fuzzy eggs in there, but added > some pima-fix to hopefully keep the fertilized eggs from catching the > fungus. Was this the right thing to do? > I'm hoping they will actually manage to raise their babies this time (or > at least mom will by herself since she's so particular). > The reason I have platy's in the tank is because the Angel's stopped > spawning when I had ONLY them in the tank, for some reason they like to > have other fish to chase, and won't spawn without them. And since I have > so many platy's I just put about 5-6 in there with them to keep the > Angel's busy. Then they started spawning again, and every month or so > they spawn. > > Amber > > On 10/10/2011 2:24 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > > > Laurie, I uploaded a new photo of my angelfish 90 gallon (its a bit of > > a mess right now, the shark pulled up a lot of plants last night and I > > haven't put them back down yet), its just waiting for moderator > > approval. This is just an idea for you of what my angels prefer for > > spawning... if I change it or lessen the amount of rock work or plants > > in the tank they stop spawning until I put it all back. When I leave > > them alone except for routine maintenance, they spawn regularly... > > within a week of removing all fry. They're doing a great job and at > > times will rearrange the tank themselves to suit their purposes. I had > > a lot of fun watching them moving the plants around until it was to > > their liking. I only rearrange plants if the shark pulls them up or if > > the plant growth rate warrants rearranging or trimming. > > > > I yank out hair algae if it gets excessive, and that tends to only > > happen when I feed heavily with baby brine during the first couple of > > months. I could keep it more at bay if I did extra water changes, > > however, the fry like to pick through it for natural food supply, so I > > leave it alone as long as its not choking out any plants. When I > > remove a spawn of fry from the tank I give it a good 35% water change, > > gravel vac if needed, and the hair algae goes away until I start > > feeding new fry again with baby brine. > > > > I hope this helps you... > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Laurie <mother@> wrote: > > > > > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > > > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > > > > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > > > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > > > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > > > > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > > > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > > > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > > > hound.) > > > > > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > > > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > > > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > > > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > > > couple. > > > > > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > > > > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > > > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > > > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > > > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > > > > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > > > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > > > already I am starting out wrong. > > > > > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > > > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > > > > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > > > > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > > > > > What should I do for or with the water? > > > > > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > > > can see if the eggs are good? > > > > > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > > > > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > > > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > > > the other about dollar size. > > > > > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > > > Please advise!!! > > > > > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > > > > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > > > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > > > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > > > > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > > > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > > > > > -- > > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > > > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > > > > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > > > - Pablo Picasso > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52261	From: haecklers	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

That's a lot of good information! Thank you, Dawn!!! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Thanks Amber, I just uploaded the picture again, we'll see if it goes through. Again it said it was waiting for approval. > > You bring up an interesting point with the dither fish in an angel tank to help with spawning... both of my breeding pairs have the same issue. If they're in the tank alone they refuse to spawn. I have rotated a great many fish around from tank to tank to find just the right combination that works for each of my pairs. One pair resides in the 90 gallon with the red tail shark, the other pair in a 65 gallon with 3 gold white clouds. > > Some fish will eat eggs and fry, some won't bother them at all. My shark, obviously is a predator, but with just him to fend off in a fully planted tank, the parent angels move plants around on their own when they are ready to spawn and they work together to keep the shark in check. He has learned not to bother the fry and most of the time he actually swims around with them with the parents standing guard in case they feel some tension, then they chase him back to his end of the tank. By the time my fry are dime size they actually will chase him off by grouping together and attacking him. Its pretty interesting to watch the amount of organization and communication that goes on in that tank. Mom and dad both raise the fry together, often splitting the spawn between them into 2 different locations in the tank and then taking turns with the groups. > > My other pair has the gold white clouds as their dither fish and the white clouds could care less what the angels are doing, if there are eggs or fry, etc. The white clouds keep to themselves and do their own thing. The female in this tank has gotten better with her parenting, but the male is still eating eggs. I am working on trying a surrogacy with the 2 pairs, allowing 1 pair to raise the eggs from the other pair, but they haven't yet spawned close enough together for me to attempt it. I have done a lot of tracking of their cycles so I can attempt to induce spawning of one within a day of the other, but space is still an issue while I'm continuing to rotate tanks around my house. Soon my 120 gallon will be moved and I will have another tank available as a nursery, which will allow for this. > > In regards to the fungus'd eggs... I leave mine alone. I haven't lost any wigglers that way yet. I noticed that as they hatched close to any of the fungus'd eggs the parents moved the wigglers to another location to keep them safe. Once all of the good eggs have hatched they let the snails eat their fill of the fungus'd eggs until the spawning spot is again cleaned off completely. Any time I have ever tried to move wigglers on my own I have lost them all. Leaving them alone was the difference between success and failure for me. > > Snails WILL eat wigglers, just so you are aware of that. I have battled snails in the 65 gallon tank, plucking them when they move in for feeding. I did move a trio of botia striata loaches into that tank to help bring down the snail population, but had to move them out again to prevent them from eating the eggs/fry. I also normally pluck all snails I can find/reach in that tank on a weekly basis to keep the population down... but it only takes 1 or 2 small snails to devour all of the eggs or fry within a day or so if left alone. > > Try reducing the number of platy's in your tank to only 2 or 3 and see if that helps any. Keep in mind that the more fish the parents have to fend off the less likely they are to be successful. When my pair in the 90 was just getting started I had barbs in the tank with them... 2 gold and 5 cherry barbs, along with 1 very old red/blue columbian tetra and the shark. It took me months of watching each spawn to see who was eating what and it turned out that the tetra and barbs were ambushing the adult angels... a couple would move in to distract the parents while the others went in to eat the eggs. Then the fish would rotate so everyone got a turn at eating eggs. The organization between the barbs was simply amazing to watch. I moved the barbs and tetra out of the tank one species at a time until only the shark was remaining. The parents can handle the shark if its only him and nobody to lead them away, so it has remained that way for months now and I've had 2 successful spawns without issues since then. > > I can't stress enough that watching your fish is the best way to see where the problems are and then to eliminate them one at a time. Eventually you will find enough ways to help the parent fish to be successful (provided you have enough space to move out the predators). Every pair is so different, there is no one method that works for all. Keep trying. Angels will breed for years once they get started provided their environment stays proper for spawning. This gives you a lot of time to figure out how to help them. If/when you need to do anything in the tank while they have eggs or fry, move SLOW. As much as they will try to chase you away, they also will learn from the things you do to help them, such as mine did with plucking the snails from the eggs. They watch and they are very capable of learning. Also, be patient. It can take them a long time to learn to get it right. Some never do, but others eventually catch on and in a matter of 1 spawn can go from eating everything to being perfect parents. Once they get it right they seem to be fine with every spawn after that. > > Good luck to you with yours... > > Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52262	From: jasadell	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Advice on Lighting, etc

I'd like some advice from you creative types.. I have a 55 gallon "kit" right now it's nice and bright, but I'm not sure it really shows off the colors of my Cichlids. The tank is in a basement with only one small well-type window, so there is not a lot of natural light down there, and we keep the lights to a minimum (the room is mostly used for playing video games, darts, and/or watching movies). I'm thinking of replacing the stone colored gravel substrate with a very dark (black if they have it) substrate. As well, I want to replace the stock bulbs with something that would have the effect that a black light does on florescent colors (remember the 80s?). I have seen some darker bulbs in certain tanks at stores, e.g. for glow fish. Q: (perhaps a silly question): Will the darker substrate and/or funky bulbs have any ill-effects on my Cichlids? Q: What are those black-light-type aquarium hood bulbs called? I'd also welcome any other advise on color-enhancing my tank, or critique on my design ideas. Thanks! JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52263	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Advice on Lighting, etc

Darker substrate won't have any ill effects unless you have trouble when you're moving all your old substrate out and don't remove your fish to do so. If you move the substrate while fish are still in the tank it will stir up all the gross things in the gravel and can cause fish health issues (fin rot, ICH, etc.). I would recommend taking all the fish out and removing all the gravel and replacing it, make sure you keep your filter running on the bucket/tub whatever you put your fish in temporarily. Then make sure to re-acclimate them to the new tank/water after you put new gravel in the tank and change the water. If you're getting plant substrate that will possibly cloud up the tank water use a bowl/plate and place it on the gravel and pour the water onto the bowl/plate instead of straight onto the gravel, this will keep the gravel from getting stirred up and clouding the water really badly. Some plant substrates are very similar to soil and will easily cloud up the water. What kind of filter do you use? If you use an under-gravel filter be very careful removing all your old gravel, as you'll be removing your whole colony of nitrifying bacteria and you will have to re-cycle the tank with some of that old bacteria/gravel. You would want to keep some of your old gravel in some sort of bag (some people use cheap nylons and fill them with gravel, place them near the outtake/intake of your filter. This will help re-colonize your nitrifying bacteria colony without having to mix your old gravel in with the new gravel). If you are using a hang on back or canister type filter just keep it running on whatever you keep the fish in temporarily. I've found that most fish look more colorful under a bluer spectrum of lighting, even the actinic lights will make the fish appear brighter and almost glow. Actinic lights are made for salt water setups though, and can cause algae issues in a freshwater tank (this is a rumor, not fact as far as I know). Black (or very dark gravel) will often cause fish to appear darker in color as some fish will darken to more effectively blend with their environment (against predators). Amber On 10/11/2011 10:00 AM, jasadell wrote: > > I'd like some advice from you creative types.. I have a 55 gallon > "kit" right now it's nice and bright, but I'm not sure it really shows > off the colors of my Cichlids. The tank is in a basement with only one > small well-type window, so there is not a lot of natural light down > there, and we keep the lights to a minimum (the room is mostly used > for playing video games, darts, and/or watching movies). I'm thinking > of replacing the stone colored gravel substrate with a very dark > (black if they have it) substrate. As well, I want to replace the > stock bulbs with something that would have the effect that a black > light does on florescent colors (remember the 80s?). I have seen some > darker bulbs in certain tanks at stores, e.g. for glow fish. > > Q: (perhaps a silly question): Will the darker substrate and/or funky > bulbs have any ill-effects on my Cichlids? > > Q: What are those black-light-type aquarium hood bulbs called? > > I'd also welcome any other advise on color-enhancing my tank, or > critique on my design ideas. > > Thanks! > JD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52264	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: FW: [AquaticLife] Advice on Lighting, etc

Agree, actinic bulbs cause algae for me, and my leleupi appear much brighter over sand-colored sand than over black. I do have black sand in my hap-peacock tank though. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:07 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Advice on Lighting, etc Darker substrate won't have any ill effects unless you have trouble when you're moving all your old substrate out and don't remove your fish to do so. If you move the substrate while fish are still in the tank it will stir up all the gross things in the gravel and can cause fish health issues (fin rot, ICH, etc.). I would recommend taking all the fish out and removing all the gravel and replacing it, make sure you keep your filter running on the bucket/tub whatever you put your fish in temporarily. Then make sure to re-acclimate them to the new tank/water after you put new gravel in the tank and change the water. If you're getting plant substrate that will possibly cloud up the tank water use a bowl/plate and place it on the gravel and pour the water onto the bowl/plate instead of straight onto the gravel, this will keep the gravel from getting stirred up and clouding the water really badly. Some plant substrates are very similar to soil and will easily cloud up the water. What kind of filter do you use? If you use an under-gravel filter be very careful removing all your old gravel, as you'll be removing your whole colony of nitrifying bacteria and you will have to re-cycle the tank with some of that old bacteria/gravel. You would want to keep some of your old gravel in some sort of bag (some people use cheap nylons and fill them with gravel, place them near the outtake/intake of your filter. This will help re-colonize your nitrifying bacteria colony without having to mix your old gravel in with the new gravel). If you are using a hang on back or canister type filter just keep it running on whatever you keep the fish in temporarily. I've found that most fish look more colorful under a bluer spectrum of lighting, even the actinic lights will make the fish appear brighter and almost glow. Actinic lights are made for salt water setups though, and can cause algae issues in a freshwater tank (this is a rumor, not fact as far as I know). Black (or very dark gravel) will often cause fish to appear darker in color as some fish will darken to more effectively blend with their environment (against predators). Amber On 10/11/2011 10:00 AM, jasadell wrote: > > I'd like some advice from you creative types.. I have a 55 gallon > "kit" right now it's nice and bright, but I'm not sure it really shows > off the colors of my Cichlids. The tank is in a basement with only one > small well-type window, so there is not a lot of natural light down > there, and we keep the lights to a minimum (the room is mostly used > for playing video games, darts, and/or watching movies). I'm thinking > of replacing the stone colored gravel substrate with a very dark > (black if they have it) substrate. As well, I want to replace the > stock bulbs with something that would have the effect that a black > light does on florescent colors (remember the 80s?). I have seen some > darker bulbs in certain tanks at stores, e.g. for glow fish. > > Q: (perhaps a silly question): Will the darker substrate and/or funky > bulbs have any ill-effects on my Cichlids? > > Q: What are those black-light-type aquarium hood bulbs called? > > I'd also welcome any other advise on color-enhancing my tank, or > critique on my design ideas. > > Thanks! > JD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52265	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

I love your rock work in the Angel fish tank, looks very pretty. My tanks just have plants everywhere and there are rocks/driftwood/fish hiding in the plants ;) LOL. Thanks for all the great advice, I'll start removing a few of my platy's and put them in a different tank. See if just a few platy's will work as dither fish rather than a whole herd ;) Maybe I could put 3 albino aeneus cory's in there instead of platy's? I have 7 of them and I could split up the group a bit. The angel's might pick on them a little when they're being protective, but cory's tend to get the hint pretty quickly when something wants them to leave the area and stay out ;) My Angel tank isn't has heavily planted as yours is, I have lower light plants in there and one large amazon in one corner that the Angel's like to lay their eggs on (lately). I keep putting floating plants and such in the Angel tank but they just seem to die off. Even hornwort doesn't seem to like that tank as much as my others for some reason. The only difference is that tank has regular 18watt fluorescent bulbs and the rest of my tanks have CFL bulbs (higher wattage and brighter lighting/full spectrum). I've been wanting to change the lighting on this tank but just haven't been able to afford a new light fixture for it. I have a shop light laying around but it needs a new bulb (burnt out), the plants were doing better with that fixture when I was using it instead. I will also leave the fungus'd eggs alone, mom seems to be keeping a very good eye on her wigglers and has been moving a few now and then. So perhaps she'll get them all moved eventually. She's a super attentive parent, I just wish she'd let the male help out. Maybe after they hatch she'll let him come out of hiding in the corner on the opposite end of the tank ;) Amber On 10/11/2011 9:46 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Thanks Amber, I just uploaded the picture again, we'll see if it goes > through. Again it said it was waiting for approval. > > You bring up an interesting point with the dither fish in an angel > tank to help with spawning... both of my breeding pairs have the same > issue. If they're in the tank alone they refuse to spawn. I have > rotated a great many fish around from tank to tank to find just the > right combination that works for each of my pairs. One pair resides in > the 90 gallon with the red tail shark, the other pair in a 65 gallon > with 3 gold white clouds. > > Some fish will eat eggs and fry, some won't bother them at all. My > shark, obviously is a predator, but with just him to fend off in a > fully planted tank, the parent angels move plants around on their own > when they are ready to spawn and they work together to keep the shark > in check. He has learned not to bother the fry and most of the time he > actually swims around with them with the parents standing guard in > case they feel some tension, then they chase him back to his end of > the tank. By the time my fry are dime size they actually will chase > him off by grouping together and attacking him. Its pretty interesting > to watch the amount of organization and communication that goes on in > that tank. Mom and dad both raise the fry together, often splitting > the spawn between them into 2 different locations in the tank and then > taking turns with the groups. > > My other pair has the gold white clouds as their dither fish and the > white clouds could care less what the angels are doing, if there are > eggs or fry, etc. The white clouds keep to themselves and do their own > thing. The female in this tank has gotten better with her parenting, > but the male is still eating eggs. I am working on trying a surrogacy > with the 2 pairs, allowing 1 pair to raise the eggs from the other > pair, but they haven't yet spawned close enough together for me to > attempt it. I have done a lot of tracking of their cycles so I can > attempt to induce spawning of one within a day of the other, but space > is still an issue while I'm continuing to rotate tanks around my > house. Soon my 120 gallon will be moved and I will have another tank > available as a nursery, which will allow for this. > > In regards to the fungus'd eggs... I leave mine alone. I haven't lost > any wigglers that way yet. I noticed that as they hatched close to any > of the fungus'd eggs the parents moved the wigglers to another > location to keep them safe. Once all of the good eggs have hatched > they let the snails eat their fill of the fungus'd eggs until the > spawning spot is again cleaned off completely. Any time I have ever > tried to move wigglers on my own I have lost them all. Leaving them > alone was the difference between success and failure for me. > > Snails WILL eat wigglers, just so you are aware of that. I have > battled snails in the 65 gallon tank, plucking them when they move in > for feeding. I did move a trio of botia striata loaches into that tank > to help bring down the snail population, but had to move them out > again to prevent them from eating the eggs/fry. I also normally pluck > all snails I can find/reach in that tank on a weekly basis to keep the > population down... but it only takes 1 or 2 small snails to devour all > of the eggs or fry within a day or so if left alone. > > Try reducing the number of platy's in your tank to only 2 or 3 and see > if that helps any. Keep in mind that the more fish the parents have to > fend off the less likely they are to be successful. When my pair in > the 90 was just getting started I had barbs in the tank with them... 2 > gold and 5 cherry barbs, along with 1 very old red/blue columbian > tetra and the shark. It took me months of watching each spawn to see > who was eating what and it turned out that the tetra and barbs were > ambushing the adult angels... a couple would move in to distract the > parents while the others went in to eat the eggs. Then the fish would > rotate so everyone got a turn at eating eggs. The organization between > the barbs was simply amazing to watch. I moved the barbs and tetra out > of the tank one species at a time until only the shark was remaining. > The parents can handle the shark if its only him and nobody to lead > them away, so it has remained that way for months now and I've had 2 > successful spawns without issues since then. > > I can't stress enough that watching your fish is the best way to see > where the problems are and then to eliminate them one at a time. > Eventually you will find enough ways to help the parent fish to be > successful (provided you have enough space to move out the predators). > Every pair is so different, there is no one method that works for all. > Keep trying. Angels will breed for years once they get started > provided their environment stays proper for spawning. This gives you a > lot of time to figure out how to help them. If/when you need to do > anything in the tank while they have eggs or fry, move SLOW. As much > as they will try to chase you away, they also will learn from the > things you do to help them, such as mine did with plucking the snails > from the eggs. They watch and they are very capable of learning. Also, > be patient. It can take them a long time to learn to get it right. > Some never do, but others eventually catch on and in a matter of 1 > spawn can go from eating everything to being perfect parents. Once > they get it right they seem to be fine with every spawn after that. > > Good luck to you with yours... > > Dawn > > - > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52266	From: Ray	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: Re: Surprise! Young angels laying eggs!

Hi Laurie, I can't believe my message still hasn't appeared. I sent you a long detailed message Sunday on just what you need to do, but for some reason it hasn't been posted. Could be my computer or it could be Yahoogroups; I've seen Yahoogroups sometime take up to 10 days before a message sent in for posting finally comes through. Anyway, I'm not going to wait any longer, but will try to repeat whatever I can think of that I sent two days ago (it never goes the same, or as complete, twice). First, congratulations on the spawning. Second, the color strain you chose sounds great. Looks like you've had them for several months now; we know they can't be just several months old though, as Angels mature on average at about 9 months of age, with some more advanced individuals starting breeding as early as around 7 1/2 -- 7 3/4 months old (but no sooner). You did right in removing the other four to a different tank. As for the algae, don't worry about it and don't do anything to remove it at this time. If you start scraping it off the glass, debris from this will rise into the water column, only to possibly settle on the eggs. There's really little detrimental about algae that poses any danger to the welfare of fishes, even though we tend to see it as unsightly. True, for it to start growing means your balance of lighting and nutrients in the water is not as good at this time as it should be, but correcting it too abruptly now should not be considered. Still, and as I noticed in your following message, your pH in this tank is not 7.5 but below neutral, when it's usually closer to that of your tap water. Your maintenance being two weeks overdue no doubt has contributed to this, but then, you probably already know that. While I won't dwell on the algae at this time, I do need to point out that for a tank so heavily planted as to appear as a jungle, as you stated, for algae to even get enough food after all these plants have consumed the available nutrients under normal conditions, shows that even more organic waste than the jungle of plants can take care of is being generated in this water column. Unless you're exaggerating in describing your aquascaping as a jungle of live plants, algae growing in your tank after the compliment of organic waste has been exposed to these plants as food for them indicates that your waste build-up is excessive -- usually being the result of overfeeding. I will assume that your ammonia and nitrite are zero (or extremely close to it), and that we're not in a discussion of having any fish problems due to water quality, but it would seem obvious that your nitrate must be elevated. This in itself will have an adverse effect on the growth of your fry. I'd urge you to test your water parameters and start doing a series of slow, small PWC's, taking care not to disturb your Angel pair and taking care too to not disturb the gravel when adding water back in. Your low pH indicates that your nitrate has built up, which is not in the best in the best interest of the fry. Normally I would not suggest messing around with water changing while eggs or fry are present, but your two week overdue maintenance necessitates this for the good of the fry. I have no idea if your dwarf frogs will be safe with the four other Angels, as I'm not a frog hobbyist, but by now I guess you've already found out. Note, it's not the low pH that's dangerous to the fry -- (they do well at this pH as it's closer to what's found in their natural habitat) -- but it's the nitrate build up, if it's excessive. The temperature would be better kept at, at least 78 o. Yes, provided your Angelfish will successfully breed in a bare tank -- and most will -- a bare tank is recommended for this purpose as it's much easier to keep the bottom free of any debris, waste and uneaten food. For this reason, most Angelfish breeders do use bare-bottom tanks -- both for breeding and for rearing the fry. This does not preclude the use of fully planted tanks with gravel, as some very successful breeders use such tanks, but more care must be taken in ensuring there's no waste build-up in the gravel. One major drawback to having gravel in the breeding tank when hatching the eggs out in it, is that several days after hatching (and before free-swimming), the eggs will lose their adhesion to the spawning site and will tend to fall to the bottom. One or both of the parents will always make attempts to retrieve them -- and they generally do catch them or lift them from the bottom and try to replace them to the spawning site, but in a gravel bottom tank some fallen fry may fall down in between the gravel grains -- since they're constantly wriggling -- making it impossible for the parents to either see them, or to retrieve them if they do see them. Further wriggling by the fry only serves to have them fall further down into the gravel where they get trapped. The size of the gravel has a lot to do with the survival rate of fry falling to the bottom, and how successful the parents are in being able to scoop them up -- but for the most part, unless using a small-grain gravel no larger than commercial grade #2, bare bottom tanks are always recommended for greatest fry survival rate. As your Angels eggs were laid early on Sunday morning (but your lower than normal breeding temperature will extend hatching time), these eggs should hatch about mid-day Wednesday. Unless you raise the temperature, the fry should be free-swimming late this coming Sunday (Monday morning at the very latest). At this time, they preferably should be fed newly hatched brine shrimp, which should be started early Saturday morning. If you need help in knowing how to do this, just ask. Otherwise, get a few packets of San Francisco Bay frozen baby brine shrimp to feed them. Break off a small piece and swirl it in the water while keeping an air stone going to keep this food suspended and moving. Micro-size dry foods are alright in a pinch, if other foods are not available, but you can't expect as high a yield of survived fry. As for telling if the eggs are fertile -- if they turn opaque white by the end of the second day, they would be infertile. If they remain clear through this period, they're fertile. Blackworms are excellent for the parents, and gets them into condition faster than many other foods will. Like any other food though, they should not be fed exclusively, but alternated as part of a variety of other nutritious foods. Frozen bloodworms and Mysis shrimp are also good frozen foods for adult Angelfish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Laurie <mother@...> wrote: > > I was waiting happily for my several months old, silver-dollar sized > blue angelfish to grow up a little. > > Apparently two of them are precocious. I got home tonight to find four > of the six cowering in the jungle of live plants, and two angels > defending over fifty opaque yellowish colored eggs on a Java fern leaf. > > If I had realized they were pairing up, I would have set them up in a > tank just for mating. Nice, bare, easily cleaned, with a piece of > slate i actually gathered at a quarry last weekend (I am also a rock > hound.) > > As it is, the tank is 2 weeks overdue for a cleaning and (on the > occasions when it goes 2 weeks) a 30% water change - was planning to > do that TOMORROW, and it is heavily planted. There's algae starting > all OVER, but I am afraid to do much of anything to disturb the young > couple. > > But I need to know what I should do for them and what not to do. > > I did remove the other four to a different tank, big enough for all of > them. They do seem relieved! Will my dwarf frogs be safe with the > four adolescent angels? The frogs live in the fake tree trunk and are > only seen when they sprint to the surface to breathe. > > The angelfish book I have tells me to use a BARE tank for breeding > (and every photo I have seen of breeding tanks is immaculate), so > already I am starting out wrong. > > Are there any water parameters that are especially important for > proper development of angelfish eggs? > > pH is 7.5, water temp is 77F. > > How can I tell if the eggs are fertile or not? > > What should I do for or with the water? > > Is it OK to clean off the algae or should I just live with it till I > can see if the eggs are good? > > I actually saw the male spreading his sperm over the eggs, too cool! > > These are Philippine blue smoky adolescents, with lots of blue on them > and orange to red eyes. One is a little bigger than a silver dollar, > the other about dollar size. > > Excited but in a panic! Wasn't expecting to be expecting so soon. > Please advise!!! > > What can I do, what SHOULD I do? > > I have a supply of live blackworms, how often should they get those? > Also a sample of Xtreme food (sounded like great stuff), and plenty of > Omega One pellets with garlic. > > Tell me what you experienced angelfish breeders recommend. I will be > checking back OFTEN, because I am in a panic! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52267	From: Ray	Date: 10/11/2011
Subject: CORRECTION - water test results - Re: Surprise! Young angels laying

Laurie, Good to see your ammonia and nitrate are zero (or close to it), but I need to question the "zero" nitrate you report. Nitrate is the end result of the process of nitrification. Unless your plants are consuming all of your nitrate, the process of your ammonia being converted to nitrite and in turn this nitrite being converted into nitrate would show that your cycle is working -- and which should have some level of nitrate indicated when testing for it -- unless you do large water changes (but you haven't done any for more than two weeks). With a zero reading of your nitrate, this would indicate that your nitrifying bacteria are not doing anything -- that your cycle is not working in breaking down organic waste products, but we know that this is not the case or your ammonia would be through the roof, so your cycle has to be working. That your algae is finding enough nitrate to grow, even after the plants are consuming their share of nitrate, shows that there is nitrate present. That your pH is really down to between 6.2 and 6.4, instead of it normally being at 7.4, shows that nitrous acid has been accumulating -- a direct result of the presence of nitrate. I'd offer, that your test for nitrate has been flawed. With your using this Osmocote plant fertilizer in three tanks, and the pH dropping to the acid range in only one tank would appear to rule out any connection between this fertilizer and the pH drop. Yes, one full number difference (of 1.0) in pH is substantial. No doubt this pH drop was gradual, but continual over these past two weeks or more. Yes, the pH change does explain the green algae bloom all over the glass -- as this change to 6.2 -- 6.4 shows that nitrates have been building up for the pH to have dropped, and nitrates would have been present to cause such a large algae bloom. No, green algae are not diatoms (diatoms are brown). A pH of 6.2 -- 6.4 is not incorrect for Angels, but any large PWC's done in attempts to change the pH to it's usual range (of pH 7.4) would be incorrect and very stressful. Any excessive nitrate, being the cause of this pH drop, would be incorrect to maintain this parameter at though. No, it's doubtful that the low pH triggered the spawning, especially since this is old water. I'm not sure how often you're feeding those blackworms to your Angel pair, but this kind of live food has been well known to induce spawnings, even when fish weren't known to spawn very freely in this foods absence. It's been noted by many that blackworms offer enough nutrition to numerous species of fish to spur their spawnings. As for better water parameters for spawning domesticated Angelfish, they tend to spawn freely at the pH they are raised in. 60 years ago, I was spawning Angelfish at a pH of 7.4, just as you undoubtedly have as your water source. What they do not take kindly to is pH bounce -- which will happen if allowed to drop to pH 6.2, then do a 30% PWC, which would change to pH to 6.8 or 7.0. A pH of 6.6 -- 6.8 would be fine if it can be steadily maintained. I'm now spawning all my Angelfish at pH 6.6 with great success, but then, I've switched from my tap water to my private well water to maintain it like this. There are two known methods of inducing spawning -- doing PWC's at a couple of degrees cooler than the tank water, and doing larger than usual PWC's -- like up to 50%. As long as 30% WEEKLY PWC's are continually done, a 50% PWC should be able to do without causing any stress, and with causing nothing but beneficial stimulus. Changing your water very much artificially, from the way it comes out of your tap is part of DOING too much, as your Angelfish book says. Touching on lighting, when Angelfish are in their spawning cycle, for best results they should not have strong glaring top light on their aquarium but more subtle lighting. At night, they should have some kind of a night light just intense enough to illuminate their aquarium with ambient light without receiving direct lighting. This is, for raising the fry with the parents. Many Angelfish breeders remove the slates of Angelfish eggs to a separate rearing tank --without the parents. A second slate is immediately substituted for this one having the eggs. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie (Mother Mastiff)" <mother@...> wrote: > > Just tested water like I do every Sunday. > > Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites are at zero, or so close I could not > see any other color (I use the big API test kit). > > But I was astonished to find the pH of the water where the angels > spawned is about 6.2-6.4. It has NEVER been other than 7.4 in all my > weekly tests on 3 tanks. > > I was so surprised I washed the tubes extra well, tested the other two > tanks, and then RE-tested the pH in spawning tank. > > The other two tanks are at 7.2-7.4 as usual. But the tank the eggs > are in really IS a greatly different pH number than ever before. > YIKES. Isn't one full number a BIG difference in pH??? > > About two weeks ago, I buried some small gelatin capsules with > Osmocote time release fertilizer under the roots of three plants in > each tank (a 30T and regular 30); the capsules were a gift from a > friend who knows I love tanks planted like jungles. Yet the pH only > changed in the one tank. > > The friend who gave me the capsules said it should not affect > anything, and he is a young wizard about fish and aquarium plants (he > sells aquatic plants online). > > Maybe that pH change explains the green bloom all over the glass and > plants (is that diatoms?) > > So, is this pH incorrect for the angels, or did it possibly trigger > the spawn? If it is not best for them, should I try to correct it, > and if so, what is safest and most effective? > > The angelfish book I have says beginners DO too much, and that the > hardest part of breeding angelfish is to keep your hands OFF. > > But since this was not a planned breeding in a well-prepared breeding > tank (and I have not bred any fish since about 1967), I need to know > what parameters these fish need and what to do to make corrections if > what they have now is not the best for them and their future offspring. > > Both parents are tending the eggs carefully, if the tank were clear > enough for photographs, they would make a lovely photo essay of > parental devotion. Geez, the number of eggs has at least doubled, > must be more than 100 now. > > The young couple enjoyed a lovely Sunday brunch of fresh live > blackworms and stole a bit of the algae wafers I try to get to the > poor corys. These angels LOVE the algae wafers, are they supposed to > be part vegetarian? > > I want very much to make sure they have just what they need in terms > of water, temperature, food, light, etc. But I need more hard data. > > Ray, Dawn, anyone? > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52268	From: William	Date: 10/12/2011
Subject: Yo Dawn!

Lady, That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its particulars such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting? Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! bill

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52269	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/12/2011
Subject: Cardinal Tetras

I recently purchased 6 cardinal tetras from my LFS this last saturday, 2 have disappeared over-night :( I'm hoping that something didn't eat them (namely my BN pleco's). I'm leaning towards them dieing, but I haven't found any bodies yet. I cleaned the tank well last night after I noticed 2 missing, thinking perhaps the nitrates got too high for them and they croaked because of it, since they are sensitive to nitrate levels. Has anyone managed to successfully breed their cardinal tetras? From what I've read online they are difficult to breed and most people tend to breed Neon tetras instead, as they are easier to breed. My local water is very soft (nearly no GH/KH at all), and the pH tends to be 6.8-7 out of the tap, so I think my water is a little too high in pH to consider spawning wild caught cardinals? They prefer pH between 4.6-6.2. I really enjoy the cardinal tetras though and prefer them over Neon's, and I plan to get more cardinal tetras at some point (hopefully soon). I'm just disappointed that they are a short lived fish (typical life span is a year in the wild, with maybe 2 years in captivity). What size school should I aim for with these guys? I HAD six and thought it was a good sized school, but since I plan on purchasing more I was thinking I should aim for more like a dozen total? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52270	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras

Hello:    I think a dozen would be a better number as schooling fish find "safety in numbers."  I have noticed over the years that when I deal with schooling fish the larger groups always seem to act more 'school-like" than when I have say 3-6 of the same species.  They would swim together or separately more often than in larger groups.  I have noticed this is even more prevalent when keeping like groups of Corydoras.    Good Luck with the Cardinal Tetras.  They are certainly a beautiful fish that looks outstanding as a central group in a tank.  I don't know anybody that has bred them but I'll ask around at the next local fish club meeting.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 9:51 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Cardinal Tetras   I recently purchased 6 cardinal tetras from my LFS this last saturday, 2 have disappeared over-night :( I'm hoping that something didn't eat them (namely my BN pleco's). I'm leaning towards them dieing, but I haven't found any bodies yet. I cleaned the tank well last night after I noticed 2 missing, thinking perhaps the nitrates got too high for them and they croaked because of it, since they are sensitive to nitrate levels. Has anyone managed to successfully breed their cardinal tetras? From what I've read online they are difficult to breed and most people tend to breed Neon tetras instead, as they are easier to breed. My local water is very soft (nearly no GH/KH at all), and the pH tends to be 6.8-7 out of the tap, so I think my water is a little too high in pH to consider spawning wild caught cardinals? They prefer pH between 4.6-6.2. I really enjoy the cardinal tetras though and prefer them over Neon's, and I plan to get more cardinal tetras at some point (hopefully soon). I'm just disappointed that they are a short lived fish (typical life span is a year in the wild, with maybe 2 years in captivity). What size school should I aim for with these guys? I HAD six and thought it was a good sized school, but since I plan on purchasing more I was thinking I should aim for more like a dozen total? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52271	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I keep the plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up when the parent fish are chasing him. Tank stats are as follows: Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting directly on the top of the tank. Open top, no cover on this tank 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the aquaclear filter. Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks over the yrs. Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the dollar store. There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no additives of any kind. Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power feed" my fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger. The fry in there now are about 2 months old. Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they start eating until they leave for the store. Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then its twice/wk, 30% each time. Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When there are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. I have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. As long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the foods I offer him. Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must let you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort likes a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a root structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without the hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic buildup in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also loaded full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as they grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural food supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again. Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch for it in my album. Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to ask. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Lady, > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its particulars > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting? > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > bill >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52272	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn, I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate round the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to 50 after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. John*<o)))< * On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > wrote: > ** > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I keep the > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > Tank stats are as follows: > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > directly on the top of the tank. > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the > aquaclear filter. > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks > over the yrs. > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > dollar store. > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no additives > of any kind. > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power feed" my > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger. > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they > start eating until they leave for the store. > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When there > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. I > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. As > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the > foods I offer him. > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must let > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort likes > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a root > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without the > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic buildup > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also loaded > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as they > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural food > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again. > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch for > it in my album. > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to ask. > > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > > > Lady, > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its particulars > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting? > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > bill > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52273	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras

That’s weird? Are there any fish that are significantly larger than the cardinals in the tank? I see you looked for dead bodies. Also, is there any chance they could have jumped out? I’ave had danios manage it. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 8:51 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Cardinal Tetras I recently purchased 6 cardinal tetras from my LFS this last saturday, 2 have disappeared over-night :( I'm hoping that something didn't eat them (namely my BN pleco's). I'm leaning towards them dieing, but I haven't found any bodies yet. I cleaned the tank well last night after I noticed 2 missing, thinking perhaps the nitrates got too high for them and they croaked because of it, since they are sensitive to nitrate levels. Has anyone managed to successfully breed their cardinal tetras? From what I've read online they are difficult to breed and most people tend to breed Neon tetras instead, as they are easier to breed. My local water is very soft (nearly no GH/KH at all), and the pH tends to be 6.8-7 out of the tap, so I think my water is a little too high in pH to consider spawning wild caught cardinals? They prefer pH between 4.6-6.2. I really enjoy the cardinal tetras though and prefer them over Neon's, and I plan to get more cardinal tetras at some point (hopefully soon). I'm just disappointed that they are a short lived fish (typical life span is a year in the wild, with maybe 2 years in captivity). What size school should I aim for with these guys? I HAD six and thought it was a good sized school, but since I plan on purchasing more I was thinking I should aim for more like a dozen total? Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52274	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/13/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet for it. I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon in the photos. I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish can't get through it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate round > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to 50 > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I keep the > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the > > aquaclear filter. > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks > > over the yrs. > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > dollar store. > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no additives > > of any kind. > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power feed" my > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger. > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When there > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. I > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. As > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the > > foods I offer him. > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must let > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort likes > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a root > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without the > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic buildup > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also loaded > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as they > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural food > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again. > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch for > > it in my album. > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to ask. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its particulars > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting? > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52275	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Cichlid male nannies help out, especially if they've been sneaking.

http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-10-paternity-subordinates-cooperative-effort-cichlids.html Paternity of subordinates raises cooperative effort in cichlids Cichlid male nannies help out, especially if they've been sneaking. The highly social cichlid fish Neolamprologus pulcher displays cooperative breeding behavior, where non-parents contribute to rearing the offspring of the dominant breeding pair. Until now, it was assumed that male subordinates never gained paternity in the field. A new study published Oct. 12, in the online journal PLoS ONE, reveals that some offspring from this domestic arrangement are actually fathered by subordinate members of the group, and when this happens these fish increase investment. The study demonstrates that the level of cooperative behavior is affected by direct fitness benefit - producing their own offspring - on top of indirect benefits such as safety, or raising related offspring. The researchers, led by Rick Bruintjes at the University of Bristol, found that while dominant females sired 99.7% of all offspring, the dominant males only sired 88.8%. Subordinate females did not participate in reproduction, but male subordinates successfully gained paternity in 28% of all clutches. Subordinate males that sired offspring defended more rigorously against predators compared to similar males that did not sire offspring. Neither parentage nor other helping behaviors were affected by relatedness between subordinates and dominants. According to Dr Bruintjes, "this is the first evidence in a cooperatively breeding fish species that the helping effort of male subordinates may depend on obtained paternity, which stresses the need to consider direct fitness benefits in evolutionary studies of helping behaviour."

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52276	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn,   Yes, I have more comments, or should I say questions about the tank but would like to ask a favor?   I know like most working people, your time is limited at best but if you could see your way, more photo's please?  There is no such thing as to many of them. I would like to see some also of the tanks top and the fixtures your using.   OK, I'll save you asking!  Why does Bill have such a sudden interest in THIS tank?   First of all its depth, 24 inches.  I may be setting up, at some point in time, a 65 gallon. Which is the same tank only it is 36 inches across rather than your 48. Next.  For the first time in almost 40 years, I will be setting this tank up WITHOUT the use of a UG filter.  I will be using one of the Rena canister types.  This is all done as prep toward the use of live plants, although where I will get them is anyones guess!   Bill From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 3:23 PM Hi Bill!  Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol.  Usually I keep the plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up when the parent fish are chasing him. Tank stats are as follows: Standard 90 gallon tank,  48l x 18w x 24h Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting directly on the top of the tank. Open top, no cover on this tank 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or twice since then).  Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the blue/white media in there.  There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the aquaclear filter. Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks over the yrs. Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the dollar store. There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been.  No fertilizers, no additives of any kind. Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size.  I don't "power feed" my fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger.  The fry in there now are about 2 months old. Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large enough to eat it).  I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they start eating until they leave for the store. Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then its twice/wk, 30% each time. Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special.  When there are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night.  I have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes dark.  I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark.  As long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the foods I offer him.  Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation.  Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4.  However, with that said I must let you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the hornwort.  That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in.  Hornwort likes a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on.  It doesn't have a root structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source.  Without the hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with fish waste when I have fry in that tank.  There is never any organic buildup in the gravel bed, either.  The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago and the water all came up clear.  I do this about twice/yr just in case, never had anything really come up in it, though.  This tank is also loaded full of rams horn and trumpet snails.  I pluck the rams horn snails as they grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this tank.  I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but otherwise I let it grow.  It offers a good breeding ground for natural food supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding once/day).  Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again.  Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work to weight it down.  I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored.  Watch for it in my album. Thats all I can think of...  If you have questions, please feel free to ask.    Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Lady, > > That is truly one beautiful tank!  Would you mind posting its particulars > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting?  > Are you using a CO2 system?  Those plants are great looking! > > bill > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52277	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras

The fish in the tank: BN Plecos, 2 adults (parents) a couple of older juvies that I haven't managed to net out yet, and a bunch (30+) 1/4 inch long baby BN plecos. 4 cardinal tetras about 6-7 Swordtail fry and guppy fry (not sure which is which yet, they're too young to tell the different in most of them) 6 albino aeneus cory's The only thing that may have eaten them are the BN pleco parents or the older juvies. It's a very heavily planted tank with driftwood/rocks, so there are plenty of nooks/crannies that a dead fish could have found it's way into. Otherwise yes it's possible they could have jumped, parts of the top are uncovered and they could have fit out those areas. Amber On 10/13/2011 4:14 PM, Dora Smith wrote: > > That's weird? Are there any fish that are significantly larger than the > cardinals in the tank? I see you looked for dead bodies. > > Also, is there any chance they could have jumped out? I'ave had danios > manage it. > > Dora > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 8:51 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cardinal Tetras > > I recently purchased 6 cardinal tetras from my LFS this last saturday, 2 > have disappeared over-night :( I'm hoping that something didn't eat them > (namely my BN pleco's). I'm leaning towards them dieing, but I haven't > found any bodies yet. I cleaned the tank well last night after I noticed > 2 missing, thinking perhaps the nitrates got too high for them and they > croaked because of it, since they are sensitive to nitrate levels. > > Has anyone managed to successfully breed their cardinal tetras? From > what I've read online they are difficult to breed and most people tend > to breed Neon tetras instead, as they are easier to breed. My local > water is very soft (nearly no GH/KH at all), and the pH tends to be > 6.8-7 out of the tap, so I think my water is a little too high in pH to > consider spawning wild caught cardinals? They prefer pH between 4.6-6.2. > > I really enjoy the cardinal tetras though and prefer them over Neon's, > and I plan to get more cardinal tetras at some point (hopefully soon). > I'm just disappointed that they are a short lived fish (typical life > span is a year in the wild, with maybe 2 years in captivity). > > What size school should I aim for with these guys? I HAD six and thought > it was a good sized school, but since I plan on purchasing more I was > thinking I should aim for more like a dozen total? > > Amber > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52278	From: haecklers	Date: 10/14/2011
Subject: Re: Cardinal Tetras

I've heard stories of BN plecos eating fry and going after sleeping fish. I think one ate the slime off of my betta's fins - it got round pale patches overnight then died a day later. A fellow who breeds angelfish said he saw one swim around the fry to kind of clump them together then it went in the middle flailing its tail until it hit a few and stunned them, then went down and ate them. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > The fish in the tank: > BN Plecos, 2 adults (parents) a couple of older juvies that I haven't > managed to net out yet, and a bunch (30+) 1/4 inch long baby BN plecos. > 4 cardinal tetras > about 6-7 Swordtail fry and guppy fry (not sure which is which yet, > they're too young to tell the different in most of them) > 6 albino aeneus cory's > > The only thing that may have eaten them are the BN pleco parents or the > older juvies. > It's a very heavily planted tank with driftwood/rocks, so there are > plenty of nooks/crannies that a dead fish could have found it's way into. > Otherwise yes it's possible they could have jumped, parts of the top are > uncovered and they could have fit out those areas. > > Amber > > On 10/13/2011 4:14 PM, Dora Smith wrote: > > > > That's weird? Are there any fish that are significantly larger than the > > cardinals in the tank? I see you looked for dead bodies. > > > > Also, is there any chance they could have jumped out? I'ave had danios > > manage it. > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > > Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 8:51 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Cardinal Tetras > > > > I recently purchased 6 cardinal tetras from my LFS this last saturday, 2 > > have disappeared over-night :( I'm hoping that something didn't eat them > > (namely my BN pleco's). I'm leaning towards them dieing, but I haven't > > found any bodies yet. I cleaned the tank well last night after I noticed > > 2 missing, thinking perhaps the nitrates got too high for them and they > > croaked because of it, since they are sensitive to nitrate levels. > > > > Has anyone managed to successfully breed their cardinal tetras? From > > what I've read online they are difficult to breed and most people tend > > to breed Neon tetras instead, as they are easier to breed. My local > > water is very soft (nearly no GH/KH at all), and the pH tends to be > > 6.8-7 out of the tap, so I think my water is a little too high in pH to > > consider spawning wild caught cardinals? They prefer pH between 4.6-6.2. > > > > I really enjoy the cardinal tetras though and prefer them over Neon's, > > and I plan to get more cardinal tetras at some point (hopefully soon). > > I'm just disappointed that they are a short lived fish (typical life > > span is a year in the wild, with maybe 2 years in captivity). > > > > What size school should I aim for with these guys? I HAD six and thought > > it was a good sized school, but since I plan on purchasing more I was > > thinking I should aim for more like a dozen total? > > > > Amber > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52279	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/15/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn, Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the substrate or the fish dig it all out again. I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. John*<o)))< * On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > wrote: > ** > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > for it. > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > in the photos. > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > can't get through it. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > round > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > 50 > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > sort > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > keep the > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > have > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > them up > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > it was > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > once or > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > media > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > the > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > the > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > few > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > tanks > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > dollar store. > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > additives > > > of any kind. > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > pleco, > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > feed" my > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > and > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > larger. > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > they > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > then > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > there > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > until > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > with a > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > I > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > goes > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > As > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > the > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > let > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > likes > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > root > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > the > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > with > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > buildup > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > ago > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > loaded > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > they > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > out > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > this > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > food > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > feeding > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > the > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > again. > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > work > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > how > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > for > > > it in my album. > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > ask. > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > particulars > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > lighting? > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52280	From: Andy Mills	Date: 10/16/2011
Subject: How do clown loaches click?

Hello, does anyone know how clown loaches produce their clicking sound? It seems to be a well known fact that they do this but I don't seem to be able to find any information on how they actually do it. I'm guessing it's either with their mouth or gills but would be interested to know if anyone can tell me how it's done. Mine were clicking so loud last night that I could even hear them through the wall, it got me thinking about how they can produce such a loud sound.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52281	From: haecklers	Date: 10/16/2011
Subject: Black "red" cherry shrimp - ?

I've noticed a couple of my RCS are getting more black on them as they mature. It's kind of cool looking, I think I'll give them their own tank and see if I can reproduce it. I saw pictures of other "black cherries" that were black and clear - mine are black and red, no clear parts.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52282	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Half moon Bettas?

Is anyone breeding half moon bettas? I have a friend who is looking to buy one for a reasonable price because they aren't available to her locally via the lfs's. She is in the States, so nothing from overseas please. Thanks in advance, Dawn

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52283	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi John, Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. I hope this info helps. I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > for it. > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > in the photos. > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > can't get through it. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > round > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > 50 > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > sort > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > keep the > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > have > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > them up > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > it was > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > once or > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > media > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > the > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > the > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > few > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > tanks > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > additives > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > pleco, > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > feed" my > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > and > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > larger. > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > they > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > then > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > there > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > until > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > with a > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > I > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > goes > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > As > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > the > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > let > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > likes > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > root > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > the > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > with > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > buildup > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > ago > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > loaded > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > they > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > out > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > this > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > food > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > feeding > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > the > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > again. > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > work > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > how > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > for > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > particulars > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > lighting? > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52284	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Bill! Not a problem with posting more photos of the tank, however, it will have to wait until I get time to take them later this week. I have noticed my photos are still on moderated status though I don't know why... it makes things a little more difficult to be sure they posted ok the first time I upload them. I apologize in advance if I try and they don't get there, as it may take a few more days before I get time to sit and upload them again. I'll do my best. I am aware of the size of a standard 65 gallon tank, I have 4 of them set up and running. The tank picture I posted with the naja grass... that's a 65 gallon we built into the wall in our living room when we bought this house about 5 yrs ago. That was the first tank I set up here and its been going strong ever since. I noticed your mention of working without a UGF for the first time. I want to reassure you that a UGF isn't needed to keep a healthy planted tank (contrary to what some may believe). I haven't used a UGF for over 15 yrs now and if anything my tanks do better without it. It was too much hassle to keep the tanks clean enough for the fish when I used those things, and I consider UGF old school. Some methods of old school fish keeping are still the best, but I never considered that one of them. ;-) If you're going with a Rena canister filter, you will want to watch your circulation depending on your plant species choices. Some plants do need more circulation than others to really thrive. Hornwort is one of those such plants. Without enough circulation in the tank it dies off quickly. I have to assume this has a lot to do with how it takes in nutrient level, thus without enough circulation it starves from sucking the surrounding water dry of nutrients without more "dirty" water being streamed past and around it at a constant rate. The naja grass isn't as fussy, but I have noticed that the lower circulation in some of my tanks does affect that, too. I've always enjoyed the crypts and anubias in lower circulation environments where those tend to thrive, as well as some of the other rooted and also bunch plants such as wisteria, java fern, and ludwigia species. The mosses also tend to thrive in lower circulation tanks. As I mentioned in my last post to you, I don't use CO2 in any of my tanks. I tried it a few times over the years but never saw enough benefit from it to make it worth the expense and hassle. My plants have always done best in the simplest of tank setups. The key is a proper balance of light, nutrient level, temp, and circulation based on the plant species (along with planting them properly and spcaing them correctly so the taller plants don't shade out everything beneath them, which hornwort will do quickly). Just like our fish, the plants each have their own preferences, including their food content. I mention this because I also wanted to mention that I don't use fertilizers or special plant substrates in any of my tanks, either. Again, I have never found it warranted enough to spend the extra money. Basic pea gravel is what I have in most of my tanks now, as I've had the best luck with it overall for any species of plant I have ever kept, and the list of them is extensive. My biggest challenges have been with hair algae because my tap water is loaded full of phosphates. Before I moved here I had big city water supply in Milwaukee, and the phosphate levels there were much lower and not a problem. It has taken me a few yrs to adjust to the differences in the water chemistry living in the country where it is heavy agriculture out here. I deal with some of the same issues Donna does with hardness... limescale on everything! My pH out of the tap averages 8.2 - 8.6 depending on the time of year. In Milwaukee it was a steady 7.6 - 7.8 all yr round, which made it easy to raise and grow just about anything I could imagine (both fish and plants). My house is very old (over 120 yrs) and the walls are mostly plaster over slats instead of the newer houses that now use drywall for everything. This sucks humidity like a sieve so I have a heavy evaporation rate here all yr round. Even in my covered tanks I deal with a loss of about 2 inches of water every day or 2, so I do a lot of top offs aside from the weekly water changes. I do have a few tanks with high population of fish in them, so top offs don't work out so well... so these tanks tend to get 2 - 3 water changes/wk to compensate. (yes, I have a pretty hefty water bill here every month) Unfortunately, one of those tanks is one of the 215 gallon tanks, so I'm sure the city wonders at our water usage, especially in the winter when it can't be explained away with watering the garden, lol. I have a lot of different planted tank situations set up here, both in lighting and what is in the tanks for plants and fish populations. I use whatever is available to me at a given time, slowly upgrading light fixtures as hubby brings them home from work. One thing all of my tanks do have in common is filtration. I like the Aqueon hang on filters. Since I get them for free I have slowly changed almost every filter in the house to Aqueon, though I do still run the Aquaclear on the 90 gallon because I like the ability to add a lot of extra filter media when I have fry in the tank. I have used most of the name brand canister filters over the years, my favorite of those remains the Cascade filter by PenPlax. I prefer it even to the Rena and Eheim. It works just as well as the others but at a portion of the cost, and it also has a pretty strong water flow compared to most of the others. Overall, I'm not fond of canister filters, though... so only use them when I really need to, which tends to be any smaller sized saltwater tanks I set up. For saltwater I try to use sump systems whenever possible because it simplifies the maintenance and increases the productivity of the filtration. Eventually I am hoping to build a sump/refugium set up for some of my larger freshwater tanks. I mention this because I have run 55 and 75 gallon set ups this way in the past and that was the overall best filtration I could ever ask for, especially with the dirtier fish species (goldfish and large cichlids). I had considered doing this for my pair of 215 gallon tanks, however, space got to be an issue and I had to fall back on hang on filters. Would I opt to change out the hang ons with canisters on these tanks? Never! The ease of maintenance and productivity of filtration overall with the hang ons vs the canisters is just no match. Hubby brought home some equipment for me last wk so I can hang my light fixtures for the upper 215 gallon tank because I need more light to turn that into a planted tank. (These are euro style tanks so standard fixtures don't work for these tanks) Once we get the time to finish our modifications I will share pictures of that with you too, it may offer you some added ideas for your own set ups now or in the future. I thank you for taking an interest in my tanks. I am happy to share with you anything that may be able to help with your own set ups. I like to keep things "easy" because its the only way I have time for it all. I thrive on working with "natural aquariums" anytime that is possible, not only because they look nicer, but because they make everything so much easier. There is no substitute for the basic science Mother Nature offers. I hope you will share pictures of your new set up with me as well. I always enjoy seeing what others are doing and how it works out long term, not just the initial set up. I have seen a great many tanks that look awesome for the first couple of months, but then as things settle in and begin to grow, build up, etc. these same tanks look like something out of a horror story later on. That is where the most information is achieved... to see what works long term. My 90 gallon tank has been up and running as you see it in the photos for about 4 1/2 yrs now. The only real changes have been to add odd pieces of rock as territory is needed, and a changing of fish since the angels began spawning. Everything else is just trim and maintain, lol. The hornwort in that tank grows about 2 ft on average, every month (per strand) so I need to trim it out often. I hope all this info helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, >   > Yes, I have more comments, or should I say questions about the tank but > would like to ask a favor? >   > I know like most working people, your time is limited at best but if you could > see your way, more photo's please?  There is no such thing as to many of them. > I would like to see some also of the tanks top and the fixtures your using. >   > OK, I'll save you asking!  Why does Bill have such a sudden interest in THIS tank? >   > First of all its depth, 24 inches.  I may be setting up, at some point in time, a 65 gallon. > Which is the same tank only it is 36 inches across rather than your 48. > Next.  For the first time in almost 40 years, I will be setting this tank up WITHOUT the > use of a UG filter.  I will be using one of the Rena canister types.  This is all done as > prep toward the use of live plants, although where I will get them is anyones guess! >   > Bill > > > > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 3:23 PM > > > Hi Bill!  Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol.  Usually I keep the plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up when the parent fish are chasing him. > > Tank stats are as follows: > Standard 90 gallon tank,  48l x 18w x 24h > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting directly on the top of the tank. > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or twice since then).  Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the blue/white media in there.  There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the aquaclear filter. > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks over the yrs. > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the dollar store. > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been.  No fertilizers, no additives of any kind. > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size.  I don't "power feed" my fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger.  The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large enough to eat it).  I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they start eating until they leave for the store. > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special.  When there are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night.  I have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes dark.  I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark.  As long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the foods I offer him.  > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation.  Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4.  However, with that said I must let you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the hornwort.  That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in.  Hornwort likes a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on.  It doesn't have a root structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source.  Without the hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with fish waste when I have fry in that tank.  There is never any organic buildup in the gravel bed, either.  The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago and the water all came up clear.  I do this about twice/yr just in case, never had anything really come up in it, though.  This tank is also loaded full of rams horn and trumpet snails.  I pluck the rams horn snails as they grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this tank.  I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but otherwise I let it grow.  It offers a good breeding ground for natural food supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding once/day).  Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again.  Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work to weight it down.  I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored.  Watch for it in my album. > > Thats all I can think of...  If you have questions, please feel free to ask.    > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Lady, > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank!  Would you mind posting its particulars > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting?  > > Are you using a CO2 system?  Those plants are great looking! > > > > bill > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52285	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

I just wanted to add to this. I'm really not trying to hijack the thread, I swear ;) LOL. Val's don't do well if you use flourish excel, since vals create their own Co2, adding flourish excel makes them melt. I have both hornwort and naja grass in nearly all of my tanks. Both seem to do very well, except in my Angelfish tank, but I think it's because it's a low light tank and it's under-stocked, so perhaps the nitrates don't get high enough to feed the hornwort and naja grass. I keep all my tanks between 76-80 (depending on the tank), I've never noticed my naja grass "melt" from the water being too warm, but perhaps I'm just under the limit for it? I've had the hornwort melt and all the needles fall off in my Angel tank only. Otherwise it grows very well in my other tanks. Amber On 10/17/2011 11:14 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the > hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the > plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 > species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. > Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, > did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking > because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible > for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile > plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch > length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in > the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top > of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make > it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have > to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the > slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I > was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great > results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it > made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short > (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the > substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn > the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much > food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month > after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked > and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike > fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and > Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It > prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried > to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same > way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste > level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not > needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so > instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level > it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can > be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the > dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting > plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the > same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. > While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate > over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. > As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they > literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also > feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over > the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the > same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like > incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) > Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed > bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that > don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun > experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I > witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a > few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see > their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The > bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both > initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was > removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up > in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight > to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then > lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo > was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear > to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I > need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get > to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over > fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish > who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to > pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves > them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties > but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking > plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original > plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten > bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52286	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Swordtails

At what age/size do male swordtails start to grow their "sword"? I have some juveniles (older fry?) that are just now starting to show some color, they're a little over half an inch long. I'm not sure how old they are. None of them have a longer part on their tail like a male has, and all appear to have slightly rounded bellies. So I'm thinking I may have all females. I have some younger fry, but they all appear to be guppies, so I think I ended up with all female swordtails somehow. I'm fairly certain that platy's and swordtails can interbreed, is this info correct? I have the swordtails in a separate tank from my platy's, since I was pretty sure that they can breed together. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52287	From: pam andress	Date: 10/17/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails

Amber, In a group of all female swords, one will turn into a male, so don't think all is lost if you want a male for breeding. Swords are one fish that will change sex if in a all one sex group. Pam At what age/size do male swordtails start to grow their "sword"? I have some juveniles (older fry?) that are just now starting to show some color, they're a little over half an inch long. I'm not sure how old they are. None of them have a longer part on their tail like a male has, and all appear to have slightly rounded bellies. So I'm thinking I may have all females. I have some younger fry, but they all appear to be guppies, so I think I ended up with all female swordtails somehow. I'm fairly certain that platy's and swordtails can interbreed, is this info correct? I have the swordtails in a separate tank from my platy's, since I was pretty sure that they can breed together. Amber _ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52288	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Dawn, There are no further photos of yours pending for approval on the List page (Home Page) that would appear to the Moderators. The most recent ones seen, and posted, are: October 11 -- "angel90b," October 13 -- "fishpic1 026b90gal," and October 14 -- "angel65a." If there were any others you submitted, they either got lost or a Moderator had deleted them -- the latter scenario being unlikely. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi Bill! > Not a problem with posting more photos of the tank, however, it will have to wait until I get time to take them later this week. I have noticed my photos are still on moderated status though I don't know why... it makes things a little more difficult to be sure they posted ok the first time I upload them. I apologize in advance if I try and they don't get there, as it may take a few more days before I get time to sit and upload them again. I'll do my best. > > I am aware of the size of a standard 65 gallon tank, I have 4 of them set up and running. The tank picture I posted with the naja grass... that's a 65 gallon we built into the wall in our living room when we bought this house about 5 yrs ago. That was the first tank I set up here and its been going strong ever since. > > I noticed your mention of working without a UGF for the first time. I want to reassure you that a UGF isn't needed to keep a healthy planted tank (contrary to what some may believe). I haven't used a UGF for over 15 yrs now and if anything my tanks do better without it. It was too much hassle to keep the tanks clean enough for the fish when I used those things, and I consider UGF old school. Some methods of old school fish keeping are still the best, but I never considered that one of them. ;-) > > If you're going with a Rena canister filter, you will want to watch your circulation depending on your plant species choices. Some plants do need more circulation than others to really thrive. Hornwort is one of those such plants. Without enough circulation in the tank it dies off quickly. I have to assume this has a lot to do with how it takes in nutrient level, thus without enough circulation it starves from sucking the surrounding water dry of nutrients without more "dirty" water being streamed past and around it at a constant rate. The naja grass isn't as fussy, but I have noticed that the lower circulation in some of my tanks does affect that, too. I've always enjoyed the crypts and anubias in lower circulation environments where those tend to thrive, as well as some of the other rooted and also bunch plants such as wisteria, java fern, and ludwigia species. The mosses also tend to thrive in lower circulation tanks. > > As I mentioned in my last post to you, I don't use CO2 in any of my tanks. I tried it a few times over the years but never saw enough benefit from it to make it worth the expense and hassle. My plants have always done best in the simplest of tank setups. The key is a proper balance of light, nutrient level, temp, and circulation based on the plant species (along with planting them properly and spcaing them correctly so the taller plants don't shade out everything beneath them, which hornwort will do quickly). Just like our fish, the plants each have their own preferences, including their food content. I mention this because I also wanted to mention that I don't use fertilizers or special plant substrates in any of my tanks, either. Again, I have never found it warranted enough to spend the extra money. Basic pea gravel is what I have in most of my tanks now, as I've had the best luck with it overall for any species of plant I have ever kept, and the list of them is extensive. > > My biggest challenges have been with hair algae because my tap water is loaded full of phosphates. Before I moved here I had big city water supply in Milwaukee, and the phosphate levels there were much lower and not a problem. It has taken me a few yrs to adjust to the differences in the water chemistry living in the country where it is heavy agriculture out here. I deal with some of the same issues Donna does with hardness... limescale on everything! My pH out of the tap averages 8.2 - 8.6 depending on the time of year. In Milwaukee it was a steady 7.6 - 7.8 all yr round, which made it easy to raise and grow just about anything I could imagine (both fish and plants). > > My house is very old (over 120 yrs) and the walls are mostly plaster over slats instead of the newer houses that now use drywall for everything. This sucks humidity like a sieve so I have a heavy evaporation rate here all yr round. Even in my covered tanks I deal with a loss of about 2 inches of water every day or 2, so I do a lot of top offs aside from the weekly water changes. I do have a few tanks with high population of fish in them, so top offs don't work out so well... so these tanks tend to get 2 - 3 water changes/wk to compensate. (yes, I have a pretty hefty water bill here every month) Unfortunately, one of those tanks is one of the 215 gallon tanks, so I'm sure the city wonders at our water usage, especially in the winter when it can't be explained away with watering the garden, lol. > > I have a lot of different planted tank situations set up here, both in lighting and what is in the tanks for plants and fish populations. I use whatever is available to me at a given time, slowly upgrading light fixtures as hubby brings them home from work. One thing all of my tanks do have in common is filtration. I like the Aqueon hang on filters. Since I get them for free I have slowly changed almost every filter in the house to Aqueon, though I do still run the Aquaclear on the 90 gallon because I like the ability to add a lot of extra filter media when I have fry in the tank. I have used most of the name brand canister filters over the years, my favorite of those remains the Cascade filter by PenPlax. I prefer it even to the Rena and Eheim. It works just as well as the others but at a portion of the cost, and it also has a pretty strong water flow compared to most of the others. Overall, I'm not fond of canister filters, though... so only use them when I really need to, which tends to be any smaller sized saltwater tanks I set up. For saltwater I try to use sump systems whenever possible because it simplifies the maintenance and increases the productivity of the filtration. > > Eventually I am hoping to build a sump/refugium set up for some of my larger freshwater tanks. I mention this because I have run 55 and 75 gallon set ups this way in the past and that was the overall best filtration I could ever ask for, especially with the dirtier fish species (goldfish and large cichlids). I had considered doing this for my pair of 215 gallon tanks, however, space got to be an issue and I had to fall back on hang on filters. Would I opt to change out the hang ons with canisters on these tanks? Never! The ease of maintenance and productivity of filtration overall with the hang ons vs the canisters is just no match. > > Hubby brought home some equipment for me last wk so I can hang my light fixtures for the upper 215 gallon tank because I need more light to turn that into a planted tank. (These are euro style tanks so standard fixtures don't work for these tanks) Once we get the time to finish our modifications I will share pictures of that with you too, it may offer you some added ideas for your own set ups now or in the future. > > I thank you for taking an interest in my tanks. I am happy to share with you anything that may be able to help with your own set ups. I like to keep things "easy" because its the only way I have time for it all. I thrive on working with "natural aquariums" anytime that is possible, not only because they look nicer, but because they make everything so much easier. There is no substitute for the basic science Mother Nature offers. I hope you will share pictures of your new set up with me as well. I always enjoy seeing what others are doing and how it works out long term, not just the initial set up. I have seen a great many tanks that look awesome for the first couple of months, but then as things settle in and begin to grow, build up, etc. these same tanks look like something out of a horror story later on. That is where the most information is achieved... to see what works long term. My 90 gallon tank has been up and running as you see it in the photos for about 4 1/2 yrs now. The only real changes have been to add odd pieces of rock as territory is needed, and a changing of fish since the angels began spawning. Everything else is just trim and maintain, lol. The hornwort in that tank grows about 2 ft on average, every month (per strand) so I need to trim it out often. > > I hope all this info helps. > > Dawn > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, bill 1433 <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > >   > > Yes, I have more comments, or should I say questions about the tank but > > would like to ask a favor? > >   > > I know like most working people, your time is limited at best but if you could > > see your way, more photo's please?  There is no such thing as to many of them. > > I would like to see some also of the tanks top and the fixtures your using. > >   > > OK, I'll save you asking!  Why does Bill have such a sudden interest in THIS tank? > >   > > First of all its depth, 24 inches.  I may be setting up, at some point in time, a 65 gallon. > > Which is the same tank only it is 36 inches across rather than your 48. > > Next.  For the first time in almost 40 years, I will be setting this tank up WITHOUT the > > use of a UG filter.  I will be using one of the Rena canister types.  This is all done as > > prep toward the use of live plants, although where I will get them is anyones guess! > >   > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 3:23 PM > > > > > > Hi Bill!  Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its sort of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol.  Usually I keep the plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they have more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling them up when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > Standard 90 gallon tank,  48l x 18w x 24h > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting directly on the top of the tank. > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago it was also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least once or twice since then).  Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad media in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with the blue/white media in there.  There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in the aquaclear filter. > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a few misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other tanks over the yrs. > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the dollar store. > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been.  No fertilizers, no additives of any kind. > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber pleco, and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size.  I don't "power feed" my fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame and then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit larger.  The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large enough to eat it).  I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time they start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, then its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special.  When there are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 until the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off with a room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night.  I have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it goes dark.  I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark.  As long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating the foods I offer him.  > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation.  Ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4.  However, with that said I must let you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the hornwort.  That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in.  Hornwort likes a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on.  It doesn't have a root structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source.  Without the hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up with fish waste when I have fry in that tank.  There is never any organic buildup in the gravel bed, either.  The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months ago and the water all came up clear.  I do this about twice/yr just in case, never had anything really come up in it, though.  This tank is also loaded full of rams horn and trumpet snails.  I pluck the rams horn snails as they grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding out baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in this tank.  I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but otherwise I let it grow.  It offers a good breeding ground for natural food supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only feeding once/day).  Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor the pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn again.  Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock work to weight it down.  I will dig through my photos and find one for you of how the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored.  Watch for it in my album. > > > > Thats all I can think of...  If you have questions, please feel free to ask.    > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank!  Would you mind posting its particulars > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its lighting?  > > > Are you using a CO2 system?  Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52289	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn, As Valisneria, just like most other aquatic plants, have only two modes of reproduction -- a) via pollenation between two plants' tiny flowers held above the surface, and b) via runners grown from the original (single) plant, I fail to see how growing two different species of Valisneria in one pot could result in the 2 plants crossbreeding since hardly anyone cultivates Valisneria from seeds. The runners that a "mother" plant sends out along the substrate to propagate additional plants is a result only of this original ("mother") plant and is completely independent of any other plants around it -- even other Valisneria of the same species. For a cross-breed to occur, it would have to come from the cross-pollenation of two plants' flowers, resulting in seeds -- which of course is possible -- but who starts new Val from seeds unless it's some horticulturist trying to develop a new variety of Val. Otherwise, it's not very practical, nor is this type of cultivation very successful at all, by the average hobbyist. I've never heard of any hobbyist cultivating Val from the seeds of their flowers. For that matter, it doesn't happen that often at all, that the average hobbyist is successful in having their Valisneria flower. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52290	From: Ray	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Dawn, In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52291	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Need to Replace lighting...

Hello everyone. Hope all had a good summer. Today my T8 light ballast gave up on me and I am now forced to make a choice on what to use. I have read that T5 will give me the best solution for my $$$. My tank is 36"L 25"W 18"D Below are the 2 I am looking at. Before I had 2, 25watt bulbs on a T8 fixture. So anything will be an improvement. My only concern I guess is having more algae growing. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+235 90&pcatid=23590 http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23753 Alex LCpl, USMC (Inactive) Semper Fi

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52292	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > for it. > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > round > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > 50 > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > sort > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > keep the > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > have > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > them up > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > it was > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > once or > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > media > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > the > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > the > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > few > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > tanks > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > additives > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > pleco, > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > feed" my > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > and > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > larger. > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > they > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > then > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > there > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > until > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > with a > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > I > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > goes > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > As > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > the > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > let > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > likes > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > root > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > the > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > with > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > buildup > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > ago > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > loaded > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > they > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > out > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > this > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > food > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > feeding > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > the > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > again. > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > work > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > how > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > for > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > particulars > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52293	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails

I agree with what Pam posted. Swordtails are not the only fish that can do this, it also applies with mollys and platys too. Most people are more familiar with saltwater clown fish that are the same way (dimorphic). With clown fish it is common knowledge that if you start out with 2 fish you are guaranteed a mated pair. This is mother nature's way to ensure that this species survives. However, in a group of all males they cannot turn female. With clown fish they can... but that is one of very few species of fish, even saltwater, that has that ability. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > Amber, > In a group of all female swords, one will turn into a male, so don't think all is lost if you want a male for breeding. Swords are one fish that will change sex if in a all one sex group. > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At what age/size do male swordtails start to grow their "sword"? I have > > some juveniles (older fry?) that are just now starting to show some > > color, they're a little over half an inch long. I'm not sure how old > > they are. > > None of them have a longer part on their tail like a male has, and all > > appear to have slightly rounded bellies. So I'm thinking I may have all > > females. I have some younger fry, but they all appear to be guppies, so > > I think I ended up with all female swordtails somehow. > > I'm fairly certain that platy's and swordtails can interbreed, is this > > info correct? I have the swordtails in a separate tank from my platy's, > > since I was pretty sure that they can breed together. > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > _ > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52294	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Some plants actually do like to have their roots trimmed back and repotted, but I have never done this with any of my aquatic plants. Some botanists swear by it, and others do not. I think it's one of those myths that mythbusters should bust or prove ;) I do know that trimming the roots and repotting plants will not usually cause harm unless you trim too much of the root mass off. Amber On 10/18/2011 2:32 AM, Ray wrote: > > Dawn, > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" > because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants > to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved > long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The > more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be > for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and > promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back > to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow > sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to > starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest > plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their > root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble > at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up > the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, > are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's > recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist > to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his > fish is highly detrimental to them. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the > hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the > plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 > species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. > Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, > did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking > because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible > for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile > plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch > length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in > the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top > of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have > to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the > slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I > was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great > results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it > made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short > (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the > substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn > the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much > food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month > after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked > and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike > fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and > Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It > prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried > to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same > way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste > level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not > needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so > instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level > it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can > be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the > dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting > plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the > same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. > While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate > over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. > As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they > literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also > feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over > the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the > same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like > incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) > Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed > bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that > don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun > experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I > witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a > few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see > their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The > bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both > initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was > removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up > in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight > to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then > lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo > was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear > to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, > I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > over fake > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > Goldfish who see > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > most of > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > was the > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > to pot up > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > fine. The > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > although in > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > trailing > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > have now > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > probably > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > fish that > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > nibble on > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > leaves them to > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties > but over > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > although > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > tips on > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > eat the > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > looking plant. I > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > the water > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > original plant > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > gotten bored > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some > of my > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > pictures. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > challenging > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > wholesalers > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my > tank it > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > pink. Its a > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > growing, which > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > growth rate > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per > strand in > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > an outlet > > > > for it. > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > though, as > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run > your tank > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > struggle there, > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > in a tank > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead > pine tree > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > ammonia, > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > the 90 gallon > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > weed and is > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > my album so > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > also needs a > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > bigger fish > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > there. I have > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > accumulate > > > > round > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree > about how > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to > run up to > > > > 50 > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must > admit its > > > > sort > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > Usually I > > > > keep the > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > floating so they > > > > have > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > pulling > > > > them up > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > other resting > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > one, not sure > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > it yrs ago > > > > it was > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > at least > > > > once or > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > blue/white pad > > > > media > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > along with > > > > the > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > growing in > > > > the > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > rocks, and a > > > > few > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > my other > > > > tanks > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants > from the > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > additives > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > bit of a rise > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > 1 rubber > > > > pleco, > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't > "power > > > > feed" my > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > time frame > > > > and > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > a bit > > > > larger. > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > brine, and from > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry > get large > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > from the time > > > > they > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > the summer, > > > > then > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > special. When > > > > there > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > on 24/7 > > > > until > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > turn it off > > > > with a > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark > at night. > > > > I > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out > when it > > > > goes > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > the dark. > > > > As > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > sticks to eating > > > > the > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. > Ammonia 0, > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > said I must > > > > let > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > because of the > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > in. Hornwort > > > > likes > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > doesn't have a > > > > root > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > source. Without > > > > the > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > to keep up > > > > with > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > organic > > > > buildup > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > about 5 months > > > > ago > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > just in case, > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > is also > > > > loaded > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > snails as > > > > they > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > am feeding > > > > out > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > rampant in > > > > this > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > plants, but > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > for natural > > > > food > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > with only > > > > feeding > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then > I anchor > > > > the > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > angels spawn > > > > again. > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > use the rock > > > > work > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one > for you of > > > > how > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > anchored. Watch > > > > for > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > feel free to > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > particulars > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52295	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails

Thanks Pam and Dawn, I find it fascinating that there are fish that can change their genders at all. I was told from the person I got the fry from that you should only have 1 male swordtail per tank, is this true? I figured it was more likely that you should have a high female/male ratio rather than just 1 male per tank, especially if they can change their gender if they wish to. Amber On 10/18/2011 1:12 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > I agree with what Pam posted. Swordtails are not the only fish that > can do this, it also applies with mollys and platys too. Most people > are more familiar with saltwater clown fish that are the same way > (dimorphic). With clown fish it is common knowledge that if you start > out with 2 fish you are guaranteed a mated pair. This is mother > nature's way to ensure that this species survives. However, in a group > of all males they cannot turn female. With clown fish they can... but > that is one of very few species of fish, even saltwater, that has that > ability. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, pam andress <pamandress23@...> > wrote: > > > > > > Amber, > > In a group of all female swords, one will turn into a male, so don't > think all is lost if you want a male for breeding. Swords are one fish > that will change sex if in a all one sex group. > > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At what age/size do male swordtails start to grow their "sword"? I have > > > > some juveniles (older fry?) that are just now starting to show some > > > > color, they're a little over half an inch long. I'm not sure how old > > > > they are. > > > > None of them have a longer part on their tail like a male has, and all > > > > appear to have slightly rounded bellies. So I'm thinking I may have all > > > > females. I have some younger fry, but they all appear to be guppies, so > > > > I think I ended up with all female swordtails somehow. > > > > I'm fairly certain that platy's and swordtails can interbreed, is this > > > > info correct? I have the swordtails in a separate tank from my platy's, > > > > since I was pretty sure that they can breed together. > > > > > > > > Amber > > _,_._,___ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52296	From: Bill	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...

Not ignoring your query but prefer to let others with more insight chime in... What kind of plants.. what kind of fish... how tall is the tank...what's your goal?.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 2:41 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Need to Replace lighting...   Hello everyone. Hope all had a good summer. Today my T8 light ballast gave up on me and I am now forced to make a choice on what to use. I have read that T5 will give me the best solution for my $$$. My tank is 36"L 25"W 18"D Below are the 2 I am looking at. Before I had 2, 25watt bulbs on a T8 fixture. So anything will be an improvement. My only concern I guess is having more algae growing. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+235 90&pcatid=23590 http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23753 Alex LCpl, USMC (Inactive) Semper Fi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52297	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...

I have found that I prefer CFL lighting rather than fluorescent lighting (T-anything bulbs), the fluorescent bulbs burn out faster than the CFL (compact fluorescent) bulbs. I replace my CFL bulbs perhaps once a year, maybe longer. My T5 bulbs burnt out in less than 6 months of use, I never even bothered to replace the bulbs, the light fixture is just sitting in a corner collecting dust. I plan on putting together my own fixture at some point with the CFL spiral bulbs that you can buy from any walmart, etc. This way it's much easier to get replacement bulbs than the long straight CFL bulbs that came in my light fixtures. Just keep in mind the brighter the tank lighting the more likely you'll get algae issues if you don't use any Co2 (flourish excel or injection), plants require a balance of nutrients and if that balance is out of wack (not enough Co2 for example) often times algae will grow to consume the excess nutrients and the plants do not. I've found it's better to just get low light plants (like java moss, java fern, anubias, and my dwarf sagg. etc) and use low-medium lighting rather than really bright with no added Co2. When I first got my super bright light fixture (4 x 65 watt CFL bulbs) for my 55 gallon I quickly got green water issues because I just put the light together and turned it on for 12 hours a day without gradually increasing the lighting. Needless to say it was quite a pain to fix the green water problems after they had begun. Since then I only run 2 of the bulbs at a time (each for half a day, so 2 turn off and the other 2 turn on at the same time). I quickly found I didn't need all 4 bulbs on for 12 hours a day with no added Co2. When you do switch the lighting start off with less hours total than you did on the last light fixture, for instance if the old fixture was on 12 hours a day, I'd start off with 8 hours (max) with the brighter fixture and work your way up slowly over a period of a few weeks until you're at the amount of time you want the light fixture on (whether that is 12 hours or less). If you suddenly increase the lighting all at once and keep your fixture on for the same amount of time as the old one you're most likely going to end up with a lot of algae or green water (algae in the water column). Hope this helps, Amber On 10/18/2011 10:41 AM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > Hello everyone. Hope all had a good summer. > > Today my T8 light ballast gave up on me and I am now forced to make a > choice > on what to use. I have read that T5 will give me the best solution for my > $$$. > > My tank is > 36"L > 25"W > 18"D > > Below are the 2 I am looking at. Before I had 2, 25watt bulbs on a T8 > fixture. So anything will be an improvement. My only concern I guess is > having more algae growing. > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+235 > 90&pcatid=23590 > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23753 > > Alex > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > Semper Fi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52298	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...

Hi Alex, For what it's worth it's my understanding that when comparing like for like, purely on a financial basis, you would pay less to run the T5 unit because the T8 unit gives off more heat. Also both types, in my limited experience, seem to last similar lengths of time before needing replacement. John*<o)))< * On 18 October 2011 23:00, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > ** > > > I have found that I prefer CFL lighting rather than fluorescent lighting > (T-anything bulbs), the fluorescent bulbs burn out faster than the CFL > (compact fluorescent) bulbs. I replace my CFL bulbs perhaps once a year, > maybe longer. My T5 bulbs burnt out in less than 6 months of use, I > never even bothered to replace the bulbs, the light fixture is just > sitting in a corner collecting dust. > I plan on putting together my own fixture at some point with the CFL > spiral bulbs that you can buy from any walmart, etc. This way it's much > easier to get replacement bulbs than the long straight CFL bulbs that > came in my light fixtures. > Just keep in mind the brighter the tank lighting the more likely you'll > get algae issues if you don't use any Co2 (flourish excel or injection), > plants require a balance of nutrients and if that balance is out of wack > (not enough Co2 for example) often times algae will grow to consume the > excess nutrients and the plants do not. I've found it's better to just > get low light plants (like java moss, java fern, anubias, and my dwarf > sagg. etc) and use low-medium lighting rather than really bright with no > added Co2. When I first got my super bright light fixture (4 x 65 watt > CFL bulbs) for my 55 gallon I quickly got green water issues because I > just put the light together and turned it on for 12 hours a day without > gradually increasing the lighting. Needless to say it was quite a pain > to fix the green water problems after they had begun. Since then I only > run 2 of the bulbs at a time (each for half a day, so 2 turn off and the > other 2 turn on at the same time). I quickly found I didn't need all 4 > bulbs on for 12 hours a day with no added Co2. > When you do switch the lighting start off with less hours total than you > did on the last light fixture, for instance if the old fixture was on 12 > hours a day, I'd start off with 8 hours (max) with the brighter fixture > and work your way up slowly over a period of a few weeks until you're at > the amount of time you want the light fixture on (whether that is 12 > hours or less). If you suddenly increase the lighting all at once and > keep your fixture on for the same amount of time as the old one you're > most likely going to end up with a lot of algae or green water (algae in > the water column). > > Hope this helps, > Amber > > > On 10/18/2011 10:41 AM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > > > Hello everyone. Hope all had a good summer. > > > > Today my T8 light ballast gave up on me and I am now forced to make a > > choice > > on what to use. I have read that T5 will give me the best solution for my > > $$$. > > > > My tank is > > 36"L > > 25"W > > 18"D > > > > Below are the 2 I am looking at. Before I had 2, 25watt bulbs on a T8 > > fixture. So anything will be an improvement. My only concern I guess is > > having more algae growing. > > > > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+235 > > 90&pcatid=23590 > > > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23753 > > > > Alex > > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > > Semper Fi > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52299	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Need to Replace lighting...

The T5's are supposed to hold their light capacity longer.much longer. But after having seen an LED fixture at the American Cichlid Association convention in July.that's what I would do. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 7:04 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Need to Replace lighting... Hi Alex, For what it's worth it's my understanding that when comparing like for like, purely on a financial basis, you would pay less to run the T5 unit because the T8 unit gives off more heat. Also both types, in my limited experience, seem to last similar lengths of time before needing replacement. John*<o)))< * On 18 October 2011 23:00, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > wrote: > ** > > > I have found that I prefer CFL lighting rather than fluorescent lighting > (T-anything bulbs), the fluorescent bulbs burn out faster than the CFL > (compact fluorescent) bulbs. I replace my CFL bulbs perhaps once a year, > maybe longer. My T5 bulbs burnt out in less than 6 months of use, I > never even bothered to replace the bulbs, the light fixture is just > sitting in a corner collecting dust. > I plan on putting together my own fixture at some point with the CFL > spiral bulbs that you can buy from any walmart, etc. This way it's much > easier to get replacement bulbs than the long straight CFL bulbs that > came in my light fixtures. > Just keep in mind the brighter the tank lighting the more likely you'll > get algae issues if you don't use any Co2 (flourish excel or injection), > plants require a balance of nutrients and if that balance is out of wack > (not enough Co2 for example) often times algae will grow to consume the > excess nutrients and the plants do not. I've found it's better to just > get low light plants (like java moss, java fern, anubias, and my dwarf > sagg. etc) and use low-medium lighting rather than really bright with no > added Co2. When I first got my super bright light fixture (4 x 65 watt > CFL bulbs) for my 55 gallon I quickly got green water issues because I > just put the light together and turned it on for 12 hours a day without > gradually increasing the lighting. Needless to say it was quite a pain > to fix the green water problems after they had begun. Since then I only > run 2 of the bulbs at a time (each for half a day, so 2 turn off and the > other 2 turn on at the same time). I quickly found I didn't need all 4 > bulbs on for 12 hours a day with no added Co2. > When you do switch the lighting start off with less hours total than you > did on the last light fixture, for instance if the old fixture was on 12 > hours a day, I'd start off with 8 hours (max) with the brighter fixture > and work your way up slowly over a period of a few weeks until you're at > the amount of time you want the light fixture on (whether that is 12 > hours or less). If you suddenly increase the lighting all at once and > keep your fixture on for the same amount of time as the old one you're > most likely going to end up with a lot of algae or green water (algae in > the water column). > > Hope this helps, > Amber > > > On 10/18/2011 10:41 AM, Alex Mejia wrote: > > > > Hello everyone. Hope all had a good summer. > > > > Today my T8 light ballast gave up on me and I am now forced to make a > > choice > > on what to use. I have read that T5 will give me the best solution for my > > $$$. > > > > My tank is > > 36"L > > 25"W > > 18"D > > > > Below are the 2 I am looking at. Before I had 2, 25watt bulbs on a T8 > > fixture. So anything will be an improvement. My only concern I guess is > > having more algae growing. > > > > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+235 > > 90&pcatid=23590 > > > > http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23753 > > > > Alex > > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > > Semper Fi > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52300	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn, Yes, I did mix the corkscrew & straight Vallis in one pot. Thank you very much for the root trimming tip, I'll try that later this week & when you think about it that really makes a lot of sense. I'll let you know how it goes down the line. I never realized that 2 different species of plant could fight with one another for nutrients, quite amazing about the 30 minute change in water quality with bacopa & ludwigia-must have been a fascinating experience, so...I'll stay with what I know-Hornwort & Vallis! John*<o)))< * On 17 October 2011 20:14, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > wrote: > ** > > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is > at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you > for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you > have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive > best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... > and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... > when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 > species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the > lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross > breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very > little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting > them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this > will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help > their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep > them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it > more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" > and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish > the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of > people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a > botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the > scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only > cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check > nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand > if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such > a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good > thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants > and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You > should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if > not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would > benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need > "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during > heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass > literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler > water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my > warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it > dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike > the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked > through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The > raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae > blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right > on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the > dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the > same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as > the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does > send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is > not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near > each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the > dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these > 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end > result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. > (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close > together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and > feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical > warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same > tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, > especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with > plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the > chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species > in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and > documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the > fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it > up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and > cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a > sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it > out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a > compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need > time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as > soon as possible. > > > Dawn > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52301	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

I would try removing some of the corkscrew vals and put them in their own pot. Since they are competing for the same root space moving them to their own pot might help the corkscrew vals grow better, the straight vals might grow faster or something and is taking up all the root space in the pot. Amber On 10/18/2011 4:24 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Yes, I did mix the corkscrew & straight Vallis in one pot. Thank you very > much for the root trimming tip, I'll try that later this week & when you > think about it that really makes a lot of sense. I'll let you know how it > goes down the line. I never realized that 2 different species of plant > could > fight with one another for nutrients, quite amazing about the 30 minute > change in water quality with bacopa & ludwigia-must have been a > fascinating > experience, so...I'll stay with what I know-Hornwort & Vallis! > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 17 October 2011 20:14, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... <mailto:dawnshungryeyes4u2c%40yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > temp is > > at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. > Thank you > > for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best > when you > > have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to > thrive > > best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > plants... > > and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question > first... > > when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 > > species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the > > lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross > > breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very > > little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting > > them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. > While this > > will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this > will help > > their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help > to keep > > them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > make it > > more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > "feeding tubes" > > and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to > nourish > > the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A > lot of > > people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a > > botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the > > scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only > > cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to > check > > nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac > before hand > > if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There > is such > > a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of > a good > > thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > plants > > and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > others. You > > should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after > trimming (if > > not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would > > benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should > not need > > "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during > > heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, > naja grass > > literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler > > water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in > some of my > > warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it > > dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. > Unlike > > the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked > > through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots > away. The > > raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy > hair algae > > blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to > grow right > > on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the > > dying/rotting plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the > > same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same > way as > > the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja > does > > send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, > this is > > not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants > get near > > each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined > and the > > dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried > mixing these > > 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but > the end > > result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each > other. > > (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close > > together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to > cause and > > feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > chemical > > warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same > > tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, > > especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with > > plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the > > chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various > species > > in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and > > documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the > > fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and > clearing it > > up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each > time and > > cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is > quite a > > sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like > watching > > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then > lifting it > > out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was > never quite > > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that > its not a > > compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, > I need > > time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to > it as > > soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52302	From: Bill	Date: 10/18/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

I've been quiet far too long.. Cutting the roots of aquatic plant is right up there with cutting off half the stomach of a person.. It's their intake... To make it simple?.. Balance the bio-load of your fish with the demands of your plants with appropriate lighting... In your home you'd no sooner place a typical orchid in direct sunlight nor a cactus in subdued light.  Enjoy the hobby, experiment with the plants, enjoy the fish foremost.   I don't use ferts nor CO2 and folks that look at my tanks swear they are fake plants.. Some folks get overly engaged in the mechanics/tech aspects of the hobby and loose sight of the goal... FISH!..  I'll try and attach some photos but no guarantee on how good they look.. (I'm into my fish and secondarily my plants for the fish).. Bill in Va.  p.s. this is a 125 and the background is about 6 feet behind it and I do not use any specialized filtration system.. Just a single big ol hob... Check out Diane Walstad's book:...  p.s.s.  I bought 4 vals about 4 months ago.. you should be able to see the runners propagating the offspring.. and this is after I've culled the "jungle" to populate 2 155G's.. ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn!   Some plants actually do like to have their roots trimmed back and repotted, but I have never done this with any of my aquatic plants. Some botanists swear by it, and others do not. I think it's one of those myths that mythbusters should bust or prove ;) I do know that trimming the roots and repotting plants will not usually cause harm unless you trim too much of the root mass off. Amber On 10/18/2011 2:32 AM, Ray wrote: > > Dawn, > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" > because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants > to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved > long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The > more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be > for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and > promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back > to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow > sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to > starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest > plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their > root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble > at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up > the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, > are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's > recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist > to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his > fish is highly detrimental to them. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the > hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the > plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 > species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. > Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, > did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking > because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible > for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile > plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch > length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in > the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top > of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have > to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the > slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I > was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great > results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it > made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short > (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the > substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn > the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much > food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month > after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked > and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike > fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and > Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It > prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried > to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same > way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste > level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not > needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so > instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level > it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can > be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the > dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting > plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the > same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. > While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate > over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. > As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they > literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also > feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over > the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the > same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like > incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) > Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed > bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that > don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun > experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I > witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a > few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see > their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The > bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both > initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was > removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up > in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight > to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then > lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo > was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear > to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, > I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > over fake > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > Goldfish who see > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > most of > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > was the > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > to pot up > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > fine. The > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > although in > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > trailing > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > have now > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > probably > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > fish that > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > nibble on > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > leaves them to > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties > but over > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > although > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > tips on > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > eat the > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > looking plant. I > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > the water > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > original plant > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > gotten bored > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some > of my > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > pictures. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > challenging > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > wholesalers > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my > tank it > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > pink. Its a > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > growing, which > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > growth rate > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per > strand in > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > an outlet > > > > for it. > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > though, as > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run > your tank > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > struggle there, > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > in a tank > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead > pine tree > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > ammonia, > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > the 90 gallon > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > weed and is > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > my album so > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > also needs a > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > bigger fish > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > there. I have > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > accumulate > > > > round > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree > about how > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to > run up to > > > > 50 > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must > admit its > > > > sort > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > Usually I > > > > keep the > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > floating so they > > > > have > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > pulling > > > > them up > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > other resting > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > one, not sure > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > it yrs ago > > > > it was > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > at least > > > > once or > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > blue/white pad > > > > media > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > along with > > > > the > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > growing in > > > > the > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > rocks, and a > > > > few > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > my other > > > > tanks > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants > from the > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > additives > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > bit of a rise > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > 1 rubber > > > > pleco, > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't > "power > > > > feed" my > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > time frame > > > > and > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > a bit > > > > larger. > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > brine, and from > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry > get large > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > from the time > > > > they > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > the summer, > > > > then > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > special. When > > > > there > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > on 24/7 > > > > until > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > turn it off > > > > with a > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark > at night. > > > > I > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out > when it > > > > goes > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > the dark. > > > > As > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > sticks to eating > > > > the > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. > Ammonia 0, > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > said I must > > > > let > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > because of the > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > in. Hornwort > > > > likes > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > doesn't have a > > > > root > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > source. Without > > > > the > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > to keep up > > > > with > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > organic > > > > buildup > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > about 5 months > > > > ago > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > just in case, > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > is also > > > > loaded > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > snails as > > > > they > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > am feeding > > > > out > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > rampant in > > > > this > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > plants, but > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > for natural > > > > food > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > with only > > > > feeding > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then > I anchor > > > > the > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > angels spawn > > > > again. > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > use the rock > > > > work > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one > for you of > > > > how > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > anchored. Watch > > > > for > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > feel free to > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > particulars > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52303	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Amber, Very enlightening, and quite an interesting controversy. A question might be, wouldn't trimming back to 2" or 3" be excessive? A better question might be, as these aquatic plants that some botanists (and hobbyists) are trimming have evolved as having long roots, why did these plants evolve long roots if these roots are seen by botanists/hobbyists as now being detrimental to the plants -- especially as it has obviously been the roots that have proven to be part of these plants' success up until now? If these long roots are now assumed to be bad for the plants, it would seem that they would have long gone extinct by now, but their continuance (and thriving) up 'till this day would seem to prove otherwise about their roots. Just something I thought I'd throw out there to think about. I don't have all the answers either, on how some botanists (or hobbyists) come to these conclusions but thanks for the input. A further thought, which just came to mind almost after sending this message -- How often is it that people have been able to improve on nature? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Some plants actually do like to have their roots trimmed back and > repotted, but I have never done this with any of my aquatic plants. Some > botanists swear by it, and others do not. I think it's one of those > myths that mythbusters should bust or prove ;) > > I do know that trimming the roots and repotting plants will not usually > cause harm unless you trim too much of the root mass off. > > Amber > > On 10/18/2011 2:32 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" > > because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants > > to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved > > long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The > > more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be > > for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and > > promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back > > to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow > > sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to > > starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest > > plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their > > root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is > > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble > > at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up > > the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, > > are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's > > recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist > > to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his > > fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the > > hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the > > plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 > > species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. > > Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, > > did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking > > because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible > > for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile > > plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch > > length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in > > the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top > > of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have > > to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the > > slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I > > was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great > > results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it > > made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short > > (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the > > substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn > > the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much > > food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month > > after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked > > and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike > > fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and > > Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It > > prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried > > to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same > > way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste > > level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not > > needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so > > instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level > > it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can > > be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the > > dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting > > plant mass. > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the > > same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. > > While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate > > over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. > > As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they > > literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also > > feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over > > the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the > > same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like > > incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) > > Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed > > bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that > > don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun > > experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I > > witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a > > few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see > > their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The > > bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both > > initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was > > removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up > > in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight > > to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then > > lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo > > was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear > > to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, > > I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > > over fake > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > > Goldfish who see > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > > most of > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > > was the > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > > to pot up > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > > fine. The > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > > although in > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > > trailing > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > > have now > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > > probably > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > > fish that > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > > nibble on > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > > leaves them to > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties > > but over > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > > although > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > > tips on > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > > eat the > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > > looking plant. I > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > > the water > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > > original plant > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > > gotten bored > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some > > of my > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > > pictures. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > > challenging > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > > wholesalers > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my > > tank it > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > > pink. Its a > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > > growing, which > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > > growth rate > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per > > strand in > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > > an outlet > > > > > for it. > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > > though, as > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run > > your tank > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > > struggle there, > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > > in a tank > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead > > pine tree > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > > ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > > the 90 gallon > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > > weed and is > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > > my album so > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > > also needs a > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > > bigger fish > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > > there. I have > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > > accumulate > > > > > round > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree > > about how > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to > > run up to > > > > > 50 > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must > > admit its > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > > Usually I > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > > floating so they > > > > > have > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > > pulling > > > > > them up > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > > other resting > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > > one, not sure > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > > it yrs ago > > > > > it was > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > > at least > > > > > once or > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > > blue/white pad > > > > > media > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > > along with > > > > > the > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > > growing in > > > > > the > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > > rocks, and a > > > > > few > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > > my other > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants > > from the > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > additives > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > > bit of a rise > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > > 1 rubber > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't > > "power > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > > time frame > > > > > and > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > > a bit > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > > brine, and from > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry > > get large > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > > from the time > > > > > they > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > > the summer, > > > > > then > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > > special. When > > > > > there > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > > on 24/7 > > > > > until > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > > turn it off > > > > > with a > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark > > at night. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out > > when it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > > the dark. > > > > > As > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > > sticks to eating > > > > > the > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. > > Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > > said I must > > > > > let > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > > because of the > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > > in. Hornwort > > > > > likes > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > > doesn't have a > > > > > root > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > > source. Without > > > > > the > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > > to keep up > > > > > with > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > > organic > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > > about 5 months > > > > > ago > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > > just in case, > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > > is also > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > > snails as > > > > > they > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > > am feeding > > > > > out > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > > rampant in > > > > > this > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > > plants, but > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > > for natural > > > > > food > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > > with only > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then > > I anchor > > > > > the > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > > angels spawn > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > > use the rock > > > > > work > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one > > for you of > > > > > how > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > > anchored. Watch > > > > > for > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > > feel free to > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52304	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Bill You have to go to the groups page to post your photos the mail group will not accept attachments as far as I know. another Bill, in PA --- On Tue, 10/18/11, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > From: Bill <williemcd@...> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> > Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 11:47 PM > I've been quiet far too long.. > Cutting the roots of aquatic plant is right up there with > cutting off half the stomach of a person.. It's their > intake... > To make it simple?.. Balance the bio-load of your fish with > the demands of your plants > with appropriate lighting... In your home you'd no > sooner place a typical orchid in direct sunlight nor a > cactus in subdued light.  Enjoy the hobby, experiment > with the plants, enjoy the fish foremost.   > I don't use ferts nor CO2 and folks that look at my tanks > swear they are fake plants.. Some folks get overly engaged > in the mechanics/tech aspects of the hobby and loose sight > of the goal... FISH!..  > I'll try and attach some photos but no guarantee on how > good they look.. (I'm into my fish and secondarily my plants > for the fish).. Bill in Va.  > p.s. this is a 125 and the background is about 6 feet > behind it and I do not use any specialized filtration > system.. Just a single big ol hob... Check out Diane > Walstad's book:...  > p.s.s.  I bought 4 vals about 4 months ago.. you should > be able to see the runners propagating the offspring.. > and this is after I've culled the "jungle" to populate 2 > 155G's.. > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 5:39 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > >   > Some plants actually do like to have their roots trimmed > back and > repotted, but I have never done this with any of my aquatic > plants. Some > botanists swear by it, and others do not. I think it's one > of those > myths that mythbusters should bust or prove ;) > > I do know that trimming the roots and repotting plants will > not usually > cause harm unless you trim too much of the root mass off. > > Amber > > On 10/18/2011 2:32 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > In reading down further into your message to John > about plants (Val), > > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back > to 2" to 3" > > because you claim longer roots make it more difficult > for the plants > > to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! > Plants evolved > > long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining > their food. The > > more extensive and luxurious the root system, the > easier it will be > > for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed > to support and > > promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root > system way back > > to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until > it can regrow > > sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will > only serve to > > starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and > most healthiest > > plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, > and whiter their > > root systems are, the more successful and healthier > the plant will be > > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their > continued health is > > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper > water and > > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that > continually nibble > > at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other > fish that digs up > > the roots until either these roots (or the plant > iteself) is floating, > > are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully > explains John's > > recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a > rocket scientist > > to figure out that everything his plants are > experiencing from his > > fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. > Hearing that the > > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now > with the > > hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also > hearing that the > > plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes > sense. Those 2 > > species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your > tending to your Val > > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with > another question. > > Question first... when you planted the standard val > and the corkscrew, > > did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? > I'm asking > > because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and > it is possible > > for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with > new juvenile > > plants down the line that have very little to no > spiraling of the leaves. > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already > doing it... when > > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about > a 2 - 3 inch > > length. While this will make them a little harder to > keep anchored in > > the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you > lay over the top > > of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite > simple... longer roots > > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. > The roots are > > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further > the nutrients have > > to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big > reason behind the > > slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the > roots alone, but I > > was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have > always had great > > results (not to mention the scientific explanation he > gave me for it > > made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim > them too short > > (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient > levels/organic waste in the > > substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so > as not to burn > > the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing > as too much > > food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good > thing is no good. > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on > just 1 pot of the > > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results > before trimming the > > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of > the first month > > after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince > you it has worked > > and the others would benefit from the same trimming > process. Unlike > > fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up > growth rate. > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the > temp your tank runs > > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the > hornwort and > > Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets > above about 76. It > > prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - > 76. I have tried > > to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always > ends up the same > > way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it > hikes the waste > > level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the > leaves are not > > needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a > filter system, so > > instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The > raised nutrient level > > it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae > blooms that can > > be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow > right on the > > dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of > the dying/rotting > > plant mass. > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not > compatible together in > > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja > grass feeds the > > same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column > for most part. > > While naja does send out root systems that can anchor > in the substrate > > over time, this is not the primary source of feeding > for this plant. > > As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and > floating they > > literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both > struggle) also > > feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants > many times over > > the yrs in many different situations, but the end > result is always the > > same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. > (much like > > incompatible corals that combat each other when too > close together) > > Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to > cause and feed > > bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the > plant species is > > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know > of that do > > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere > near each other in > > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are > one combo that > > don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a > lot of fun > > experimenting with plants over the years and the first > time I > > witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was > hooked... spent a > > few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 > gallon tanks to see > > their reactions to each other and documenting my > findings. The > > bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest > acting warfare, both > > initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when > one was > > removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time > and cleared up > > in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It > is quite a sight > > to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, > like watching > > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, > and then > > lifting it out again just as fast. While the > hornwort/naja grass combo > > was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has > been pretty clear > > to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, > hopefully this week, > > I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy > schedule so will > > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS > JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always > favoured real plants > > over fake > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & > especially with my > > Goldfish who see > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried > quite a lot of plants & > > most of > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a > matter of days & Vallis > > was the > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the > onslaught & even then I had > > to pot up > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but > now it is growing > > fine. The > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all > year round at 77 > > although in > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It > usually grows best during the > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My > tank is 20" deep so the > > trailing > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow > from my outlets. > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time > to time but the plants I > > have now > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific > as they used to be so I > > probably > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk > them up a bit. I have 2 > > fish that > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis > growing-one will meticulously > > nibble on > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other > digs the roots up then > > leaves them to > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight > & corkscrew varieties > > but over > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one > generic plant type > > although > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf > appear. Do you have any > > tips on > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I > use regular clay plant pots with > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put > stones on the top of the > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few > months, specifically to > > eat the > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well > but also is a nice > > looking plant. I > > > > know what you mean about the mess of > dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank > so anything loose in > > the water > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish > ate a lot of the > > original plant > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds > & the fish have > > gotten bored > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It > has gathered around some > > of my > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some > free-floating around. > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking > forward to seeing your > > pictures. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, > dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able > to grow it too, it can be > > challenging > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from > the pet store or even the > > wholesalers > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, > but after a few weeks in my > > tank it > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and > then the tips turn bring > > pink. Its a > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really > well its also very fast > > growing, which > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to > keep up with. I've tracked > > growth rate > > > > > on it from time to time and mine > averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per > > strand in > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of > trimming unless you find > > an outlet > > > > > for it. > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its > thriving in a goldfish tank > > though, as > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. > Can I ask what temp you run > > your tank > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks > before but it tends to > > struggle there, > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I > get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is > that if it doesn't work out > > in a tank > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It > drops needles like a dead > > pine tree > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also > contributes to some huge > > ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only > tank I keep it in now is > > the 90 gallon > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, > which also grows like a > > weed and is > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will > have to post more pics in > > my album so > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun > with that too, but it > > also needs a > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed > or it gets so thick the > > bigger fish > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS > JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in > your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish > really have a good time in > > there. I have > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my > Goldfish tank & it tends to > > accumulate > > > > > round > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it > grows in clumps then. I agree > > about how > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, > before I added it my NO3 used to > > run up to > > > > > 50 > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets > to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, > dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you > like the tank, although I must > > admit its > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with > all the fry in there... lol. > > Usually I > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but > the fry seem to like more > > floating so they > > > > > have > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, > and the shark does a good job of > > pulling > > > > > them up > > > > > > > when the parent fish are > chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l > x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 > fixtures, one on legs and the > > other resting > > > > > > > directly on the top of the > tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this > tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB > and one Aquaclear (the largest > > one, not sure > > > > > > > what name they have given it > now days...back when I bought > > it yrs ago > > > > > it was > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, > I know they have renamed them > > at least > > > > > once or > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on > both intake tubes to protect > > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear > sponge along with some > > blue/white pad > > > > > media > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the > aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > > along with > > > > > the > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. > There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > > growing in > > > > > the > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic > pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of > petrified wood, flat round > > rocks, and a > > > > > few > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, > zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > > my other > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow > moss, and large leaf silk plants > > from the > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, > never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > additives > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on > time of year, as there is a > > bit of a rise > > > > > > > during the winter months when > the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding > pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > > 1 rubber > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are > now dime to nickel size. I don't > > "power > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in > this tank over about a 4 month > > time frame > > > > > and > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when > they hit quarter size or just > > a bit > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > The fry in there now are > about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical > flakes, newly hatched baby > > brine, and from > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult > brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry > > get large > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed > once/day, this includes the fry > > from the time > > > > > they > > > > > > > start eating until they leave > for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk > unless evaporation gets heavy in > > the summer, > > > > > then > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic > and easy set up, nothing > > special. When > > > > > there > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank > one of the light fixtures stays > > on 24/7 > > > > > until > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime > size, then I slowly start to > > turn it off > > > > > with a > > > > > > > room light over the tank at > night, until eventually its dark > > at night. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the > light otherwise they freak out > > when it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect > them from the shark who hunts in > > the dark. > > > > > As > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he > leaves the fry alone and > > sticks to eating > > > > > the > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the > same...I get little fluctuation. > > Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or > below, pH 8.4. However, with that > > said I must > > > > > let > > > > > > > you know that the reason for > the low nitrate level is > > because of the > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only > tank in my house I can grow it > > in. Hornwort > > > > > likes > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy > nutrient level to feed on. It > > doesn't have a > > > > > root > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate > level is its primary food > > source. Without > > > > > the > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would > be doing daily water changes > > to keep up > > > > > with > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in > that tank. There is never any > > organic > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. > The last gravel vac I did was > > about 5 months > > > > > ago > > > > > > > and the water all came up > clear. I do this about twice/yr > > just in case, > > > > > > > never had anything really > come up in it, though. This tank > > is also > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet > snails. I pluck the rams horn > > snails as > > > > > they > > > > > > > grow and use them for food > for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can > think to mention is that when I > > am feeding > > > > > out > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry > I do get hair algae growing > > rampant in > > > > > this > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and > there as it tries to choke out the > > plants, but > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It > offers a good breeding ground > > for natural > > > > > food > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between > feedings (is how I get away > > with only > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the > hair algae stops growing, then > > I anchor > > > > > the > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, > and wait a wk or 2 before the > > angels spawn > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored > securely in the substrate so I > > use the rock > > > > > work > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig > through my photos and find one > > for you of > > > > > how > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns > when the hornwort is all > > anchored. Watch > > > > > for > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... > If you have questions, please > > feel free to > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, > "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one > beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, > inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 > system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >__ > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52305	From: William M	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Vals..

Bill, I took your advice and posted an album titled Vals. Note the propagation efforts they give off!.. Bill in Va.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52306	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Dawn, Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it is now. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > for it. > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > round > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > 50 > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > have > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > them up > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > it was > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > once or > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > media > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > the > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > the > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > few > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > additives > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > and > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > they > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > then > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > there > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > until > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > with a > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > As > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > the > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > let > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > likes > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > root > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > the > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > with > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > ago > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > they > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > out > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > this > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > food > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > the > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > work > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > how > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > for > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52307	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Vals..

Folks you can get to the photos of Bills Vals here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/recent/list Bill in Pa --- On Wed, 10/19/11, William M <williemcd@...> wrote: > From: William M <williemcd@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Vals.. > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 7:59 AM > Bill, I took your advice and posted > an album titled Vals.  Note the propagation efforts > they give off!.. Bill in Va. > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52308	From: haecklers	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Cory fry feeding question

I've got 6 cory fry that hatched today (all the eggs I could save). Usually you don't to feed fry the first few days until they are "free swimming" but how do you tell with cory fry, they sink anyway?? When should I feed? I can't remember what I did last time but then I lost one out of the 4 that hatched. I'd like to keep these little guys to raise up with angelfish fry so I'm not concerned about the small number.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52309	From: Laurie (Mother Mastiff)	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?

Last week, one of my half dozen mystery snails floated on the water for two days, and I removed it and found it was dead. Nothing else happened for a week, but suddenly the other four are all right at the surface of the water (usually I rarely see them, the tank is heavily planted and they keep the leaves pretty clean). So, what does this behavior MEAN, and if the one that died infected the others, is there anything I can do to save them? Water test results today: nitrites and nitrates insignificant, ammonia very low, pH 7.5. There were free swimming baby angelfish yesterday, but the parents mistook them for brine shrimp and carefully caught and ate every one.... The angels ignore the snails and 2 small cory cats. I love the blue snails in with the blue fish, and would hate to lose them. Help? Thanks! -- laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. - Pablo Picasso

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52310	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!

Dawn, Continuing on this thread, I'm very glad you've had great results with trimming aquatic plant roots, but please don't recommend it to others as normal practice when it's so controversial. Just because you've had good luck with this procedure doesn't necessarily mean that this drastic step is best for the plants. As for your explantion that longer roots make it more difficult to take up food, and that roots are like feeding tubes -- and the longer they are the further the nutients will have to travel completely lacks credibility when realizing the feeding processes of rooted plants. Perhaps you may not have consider this either, but long roots hardly make it more difficult for the plant to get its nutrients. The longer and the more finer (thinner) root hairs growing from these many long roots enables the plant to take in more nutrients, and to reach all areas surrounding it to obtain as much nutrient as it possibly can. Short roots just serve to cut the plant off from access to nutrients. YES, I WILL AGREE -- roots ARE like feeding tubes -- BUT you're not considering that these TUBES are constantly loaded with food -- just as a hose is constantly filled with water. The plant is not immediately dependent on the food that is being taken up at the far end of its root system as the entire length of these roots are constantly filled with nutrients; the plant feeds on the nutrients that have been brought to it over time by the many long roots that are reaching out from the plant in all directions, that are now at the base of the plant ready to be used. The more and the longer the roots, the more nutrients will constantly be available. It doesn't need to wait for nutrients brought to it from the far end of the "TUBE" when the "TUBE" is constantly filled. When all these long roots soak up these nutrients, they are brought to the plant in a constant chain of them and the more and the longer roots there are, the more chains (acting like constant long multiple trains of nutrients) of nutrients are available to the plant at any given time. If you had numerous small hoses feeding into one central hose, and you had many of these long central hoses all leading to oner place, you would have more water than you could use. While it's not quite as easy for the plant to obtain its nutrients, the more and the longer the roots, the easier it is for the plant to get more and more nutrients with longer and more roots. These nutrients are brought through the roots by a process called "capillary action," which is a constant flow through the cell membranes of the many long roots reaching every available nutrient source that they can reach. This capillary action is similar to what happens when a more advanced vascular plant like a tree absorbs nurients through its roots and passes the nutrients up to its leaves through its inner bark (Xylem). The roots are at ground level and below. The leaves, depending on the height of the tree, may be 40 or 60 feet in the air, yet by capillary action of its sap up through this inner bark, the leaves obtain nourishment while passing the food made by the nutrients & light (through the process of photosynthesis) down to the rest of the tree (via the Phloem -- a similar inner bark system) to feed it again by capillary action. Simpler aquatic plants are similar in their feeding processes -- which require a good root structure. If such plants as tree could not depend on the process of capillary action in distributing their nutrients and their manufactured (via photosynthesis) food, there would be no trees. While I'm not saying your botanist is wrong, I'm saying that perhaps you have misunderstood him as what you're saying DOES NOT make any sense if you -- or anyone else -- are believing that plants are immediately dependent on nutrients brought to it directly from the far end of its root system for immediate use, and that the longer the root system the longer it will take for these nutrients to reach the plant. This way of thinking again is ludicrous, which can be seen when considering what really goes on as I explained it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52311	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in Va.    ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn!   Hi Dawn, Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it is now. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > for it. > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > round > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > 50 > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > have > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > them up > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > it was > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > once or > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > media > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > the > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > the > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > few > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > additives > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > and > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > they > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > then > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > there > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > until > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > with a > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > As > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > the > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > let > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > likes > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > root > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > the > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > with > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > ago > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > they > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > out > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > this > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > food > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > the > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > work > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > how > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > for > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52312	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

I don't think the roots are detrimental if they get long, I just think if you trim them and re-pot the plant (with fresh dirt/nutrients/etc) the plant can (and often has in my experience) quickly recovered and has a growth spurt right away. But part of this could be the fresh dirt/nutrients rather than just the trimming on the roots, it's probably a combination of things that cause the growth spurt rather than JUST the trimming. Either way I don't disagree or agree on this, I tend to just let my plants do their thing unless I don't have a pot big enough to transplant into, then sometimes I will trim the root mass a bit and re-pot in the same pot with new dirt. My thoughts are plants continue to grow their roots just like the leaves, they continue to grow their roots looking for fresh nutrients in the soil. We often trim the leaves/flowers off of plants and this will cause a growth spurt in (some) plants as well, but it isn't detrimental to the plant itself, and can sometimes be beneficial instead. Roots mirror the leaves, they take up nutrients from the soil and the leaves take up nutrients from the air/water/light etc. Trimming the root mass doesn't mean you're killing off the roots, you're just trimming them back for a fresh start. Amber On 10/18/2011 11:27 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Amber, > > Very enlightening, and quite an interesting controversy. A question > might be, wouldn't trimming back to 2" or 3" be excessive? A better > question might be, as these aquatic plants that some botanists (and > hobbyists) are trimming have evolved as having long roots, why did > these plants evolve long roots if these roots are seen by > botanists/hobbyists as now being detrimental to the plants -- > especially as it has obviously been the roots that have proven to be > part of these plants' success up until now? If these long roots are > now assumed to be bad for the plants, it would seem that they would > have long gone extinct by now, but their continuance (and thriving) up > 'till this day would seem to prove otherwise about their roots. Just > something I thought I'd throw out there to think about. I don't have > all the answers either, on how some botanists (or hobbyists) come to > these conclusions but thanks for the input. > > A further thought, which just came to mind almost after sending this > message -- How often is it that people have been able to improve on > nature? > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Some plants actually do like to have their roots trimmed back and > > repotted, but I have never done this with any of my aquatic plants. > Some > > botanists swear by it, and others do not. I think it's one of those > > myths that mythbusters should bust or prove ;) > > > > I do know that trimming the roots and repotting plants will not usually > > cause harm unless you trim too much of the root mass off. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/18/2011 2:32 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > > > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" > > > because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants > > > to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved > > > long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The > > > more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be > > > for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and > > > promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way > back > > > to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow > > > sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to > > > starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most > healthiest > > > plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their > > > root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > > > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is > > > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > > > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually > nibble > > > at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up > > > the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is > floating, > > > are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's > > > recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist > > > to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his > > > fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > Ray > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52313	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?

Could just be that these snails are being subjected to noxious gases if you've been overfeeding to the extent that excess food is decaying in the substrate. Have you vacuumed your gravel lately? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Laurie (Mother Mastiff)" <mother@...> wrote: > > Last week, one of my half dozen mystery snails floated on the water > for two days, and I removed it and found it was dead. > > Nothing else happened for a week, but suddenly the other four are all > right at the surface of the water (usually I rarely see them, the tank > is heavily planted and they keep the leaves pretty clean). > > So, what does this behavior MEAN, and if the one that died infected > the others, is there anything I can do to save them? > > Water test results today: nitrites and nitrates insignificant, > ammonia very low, pH 7.5. > > There were free swimming baby angelfish yesterday, but the parents > mistook them for brine shrimp and carefully caught and ate every > one.... The angels ignore the snails and 2 small cory cats. > > I love the blue snails in with the blue fish, and would hate to lose > them. Help? Thanks! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52314	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?

Mystery snails have a short life span (only about 2-3 years depending on how warm you keep your water, the warmer the water the faster they grow and the shorter their life span). It's really easy to starve mystery snails as well, that's how I lost a lot of mine (too much competition with my pleco's for food). I only have 3-4 mystery snails left now, which saddens me too. Sometimes they will float for a week or more on the surface and just "hybernate" and not actually be dead. Did you push on their trap door to see if they react? If they suck further into their shell and seal up then the snail isn't actually dead, if it just hangs there and doesn't react then it's most likely dead and it should have a very obvious (foul) smell as well. The most common cause of mystery snail death is starvation though, if they can't find food mine just seem to give up after a day or two and die. Check out: www.applesnail.net For lots of info on mystery snails (and other types of aquatic snails as well). It has a lot of info. Amber On 10/19/2011 7:04 AM, Laurie (Mother Mastiff) wrote: > > Last week, one of my half dozen mystery snails floated on the water > for two days, and I removed it and found it was dead. > > Nothing else happened for a week, but suddenly the other four are all > right at the surface of the water (usually I rarely see them, the tank > is heavily planted and they keep the leaves pretty clean). > > So, what does this behavior MEAN, and if the one that died infected > the others, is there anything I can do to save them? > > Water test results today: nitrites and nitrates insignificant, > ammonia very low, pH 7.5. > > There were free swimming baby angelfish yesterday, but the parents > mistook them for brine shrimp and carefully caught and ate every > one.... The angels ignore the snails and 2 small cory cats. > > I love the blue snails in with the blue fish, and would hate to lose > them. Help? Thanks! > > -- > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > Critically Endangered Gulf Coast Native Sheep > > I am always doing what I cannot do, in order to learn how to do it. > - Pablo Picasso___ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52315	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Bill, I'm not really sure what brought about this focus in thinking, but it would make more sense to cut back the foliage if the plant somehow sustained root loss (due to the gravel turning black, for example, from putrifying fish food in the substrate). With not enough roots, the plant would be unable to feed very much foliage, so cutting that (the foliage) back would be the thing to do -- after cleaning the gravel, if that promoted the root loss. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > >   > Hi Dawn, > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > is now. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > round > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52316	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Ray.. i was espousing my habit of Land Based Plants... hence shrubs and trees... When ya dig a shrub or tree up ya lose a lot of those feeder roots you were talking about... hence a need to cut down on the demand on the roots by cutting back on the foliage... Sorry for the confusion I caused..... In the aquatic environment?.. Save as much root as ya can!!!!!!!!!!!!..Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:06 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn!   Bill, I'm not really sure what brought about this focus in thinking, but it would make more sense to cut back the foliage if the plant somehow sustained root loss (due to the gravel turning black, for example, from putrifying fish food in the substrate). With not enough roots, the plant would be unable to feed very much foliage, so cutting that (the foliage) back would be the thing to do -- after cleaning the gravel, if that promoted the root loss. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > >   > Hi Dawn, > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > is now. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > round > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52317	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!

Dawn.. Perhaps you were confusing cutting back the FOLIAGE to compensate for the root loss during transplant.  For heavens sake, conserve as much root structure as possible during the transplant process... Cut back on the foliage but NEVER the pipeline of nutrients to the plant... Bill in Va.   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 12:19 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!   Dawn, Continuing on this thread, I'm very glad you've had great results with trimming aquatic plant roots, but please don't recommend it to others as normal practice when it's so controversial. Just because you've had good luck with this procedure doesn't necessarily mean that this drastic step is best for the plants. As for your explantion that longer roots make it more difficult to take up food, and that roots are like feeding tubes -- and the longer they are the further the nutients will have to travel completely lacks credibility when realizing the feeding processes of rooted plants. Perhaps you may not have consider this either, but long roots hardly make it more difficult for the plant to get its nutrients. The longer and the more finer (thinner) root hairs growing from these many long roots enables the plant to take in more nutrients, and to reach all areas surrounding it to obtain as much nutrient as it possibly can. Short roots just serve to cut the plant off from access to nutrients. YES, I WILL AGREE -- roots ARE like feeding tubes -- BUT you're not considering that these TUBES are constantly loaded with food -- just as a hose is constantly filled with water. The plant is not immediately dependent on the food that is being taken up at the far end of its root system as the entire length of these roots are constantly filled with nutrients; the plant feeds on the nutrients that have been brought to it over time by the many long roots that are reaching out from the plant in all directions, that are now at the base of the plant ready to be used. The more and the longer the roots, the more nutrients will constantly be available. It doesn't need to wait for nutrients brought to it from the far end of the "TUBE" when the "TUBE" is constantly filled. When all these long roots soak up these nutrients, they are brought to the plant in a constant chain of them and the more and the longer roots there are, the more chains (acting like constant long multiple trains of nutrients) of nutrients are available to the plant at any given time. If you had numerous small hoses feeding into one central hose, and you had many of these long central hoses all leading to oner place, you would have more water than you could use. While it's not quite as easy for the plant to obtain its nutrients, the more and the longer the roots, the easier it is for the plant to get more and more nutrients with longer and more roots. These nutrients are brought through the roots by a process called "capillary action," which is a constant flow through the cell membranes of the many long roots reaching every available nutrient source that they can reach. This capillary action is similar to what happens when a more advanced vascular plant like a tree absorbs nurients through its roots and passes the nutrients up to its leaves through its inner bark (Xylem). The roots are at ground level and below. The leaves, depending on the height of the tree, may be 40 or 60 feet in the air, yet by capillary action of its sap up through this inner bark, the leaves obtain nourishment while passing the food made by the nutrients & light (through the process of photosynthesis) down to the rest of the tree (via the Phloem -- a similar inner bark system) to feed it again by capillary action. Simpler aquatic plants are similar in their feeding processes -- which require a good root structure. If such plants as tree could not depend on the process of capillary action in distributing their nutrients and their manufactured (via photosynthesis) food, there would be no trees. While I'm not saying your botanist is wrong, I'm saying that perhaps you have misunderstood him as what you're saying DOES NOT make any sense if you -- or anyone else -- are believing that plants are immediately dependent on nutrients brought to it directly from the far end of its root system for immediate use, and that the longer the root system the longer it will take for these nutrients to reach the plant. This way of thinking again is ludicrous, which can be seen when considering what really goes on as I explained it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52318	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Swordtails

Amber, In regards to 1 male per tank, that is dependent on tank size and number of females. While livebearers should never be "paired" with just one male and one female, it doesn't necessarily need to be limited to one male per tank. Provided there are at least 3 females per male, and there is enough space in the tank for everyone, (and enough territory), the one male per tank thing isn't a rule of thumb I would worry about. Swordtails and mollys were the first fish I ever bred, many many yrs ago. I had so much fun with them but my landlord hated the number of tanks I set up to accommodate all the fry. My last breeding of both swordtails and mollys was a few yrs ago when I was working on some selective breeding for the store. I spent months tracking down the males and females I wanted for mixed traits until I found what produced the desired offspring, then my males had a tank of their own and were rotated with specific tanks full of females long enough to impregnate all of the females, then the males went back "home" to their tank until the fry were moved out and the females were ready again. I finally called it quits when the store left me stuck with a few hundred fry they had previously agreed to take and suddenly "didn't have space for" because they ordered from the wholesaler only a few days before I was due to bring mine in. The other reason I finally moved onto other species is because I started breeding for profit and there was simply no profit to be had with livebearers. Around here they are "cheap fish" and I simply don't have the space for that kind of massive breeding right now without a fair profit to support them. I am over crowded with angels and geophagus now, and the market for the geos has gone down to nil because my pair is so prolific (500+ per spawn). I have been trying to expand my saltwater tanks to work on coral propagation, where there is better money to be made, so I have backed off of most of the freshwater breeding for the time being. Once I find a good home for my geophagus pair I am considering letting all of those go so I can focus more on corals and angelfish exclusively. I wish I had a bigger house, lol! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Thanks Pam and Dawn, > I find it fascinating that there are fish that can change their genders > at all. > I was told from the person I got the fry from that you should only have > 1 male swordtail per tank, is this true? > I figured it was more likely that you should have a high female/male > ratio rather than just 1 male per tank, especially if they can change > their gender if they wish to. > > Amber > > On 10/18/2011 1:12 PM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > > > I agree with what Pam posted. Swordtails are not the only fish that > > can do this, it also applies with mollys and platys too. Most people > > are more familiar with saltwater clown fish that are the same way > > (dimorphic). With clown fish it is common knowledge that if you start > > out with 2 fish you are guaranteed a mated pair. This is mother > > nature's way to ensure that this species survives. However, in a group > > of all males they cannot turn female. With clown fish they can... but > > that is one of very few species of fish, even saltwater, that has that > > ability. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, pam andress <pamandress23@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Amber, > > > In a group of all female swords, one will turn into a male, so don't > > think all is lost if you want a male for breeding. Swords are one fish > > that will change sex if in a all one sex group. > > > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At what age/size do male swordtails start to grow their "sword"? I have > > > > > > some juveniles (older fry?) that are just now starting to show some > > > > > > color, they're a little over half an inch long. I'm not sure how old > > > > > > they are. > > > > > > None of them have a longer part on their tail like a male has, and all > > > > > > appear to have slightly rounded bellies. So I'm thinking I may have all > > > > > > females. I have some younger fry, but they all appear to be guppies, so > > > > > > I think I ended up with all female swordtails somehow. > > > > > > I'm fairly certain that platy's and swordtails can interbreed, is this > > > > > > info correct? I have the swordtails in a separate tank from my platy's, > > > > > > since I was pretty sure that they can breed together. > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > _,_._,___ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52319	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Replacing Gravel

I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few gallons of tank water in a big bucket. Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything beneficial? If so, how long should I let them soak? Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I remove the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs instead of marinating? ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52320	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any answers: What kind of filter do you use? Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? Amber On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few gallons > of tank water in a big bucket. > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything beneficial? > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I remove > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs instead > of marinating? > ~Kai > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52321	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Dual HOB. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > answers: > What kind of filter do you use? > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > Amber > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few gallons > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything beneficial? > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I remove > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs instead > > of marinating? > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52322	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question

Heck.. please don't take this topic off board!.. I've 8 lazer orange cory's i'd love to breed... How and what did ya do to get them too spawn?.. I've heard of dropping temps into the 60's.. what was your secret?.. Bill in Va.  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52323	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up the gravel and let the water drain out. You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) Amber On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > Dual HOB. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > > answers: > > What kind of filter do you use? > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > gallons > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > beneficial? > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I remove > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs instead > > > of marinating? > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52324	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question

I've gotten my cory's to spawn by doing a large (40% or more) water change with water that's at least 2 degrees cooler than the original tank water. Obviously you have to add the new colder water to the tank very slowly so you don't shock the other tank inhabitants. My cory's usually spawn right away after this. Now if I can get my pleco's to stop snacking on all the eggs ;) One day I'll give a few cory's their own tank to spawn in, but right now I don't have enough room. Amber On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, Bill wrote: > > Heck.. please don't take this topic off board!.. I've 8 lazer orange > cory's i'd love to breed... How and what did ya do to get them too > spawn?.. I've heard of dropping temps into the 60's.. what was your > secret?.. Bill in Va. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52325	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do on a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of growing something bad instead? ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > the gravel and let the water drain out. > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > Amber > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > > > answers: > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > gallons > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > beneficial? > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I remove > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs instead > > > > of marinating? > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52326	From: haecklers	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Cory fry feeding question

Mine are peppered cories. They're one of the original types, pretty easy to spawn. They just do it. Mostly it seems, they like to spawn just before the angelfish eggs hatch. Pappa angelfish eats up all the cory eggs then starts in on his own. They've ruined at least two spawns that way! I've been reading up, tho, and a few things you should know - some corys aren't reliable breeders in captivity while others spawn readily - so it could be the kind you have would be really hard to spawn while mine are easy. Also, some kinds don't spawn until they are 2 years old, or so I've read. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Heck.. please don't take this topic off board!.. I've 8 lazer orange cory's i'd love to breed... How and what did ya do to get them too spawn?.. I've heard of dropping temps into the 60's.. what was your secret?.. Bill in Va.  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52327	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

H Kai, I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. John*<o)))< * On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do on > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > growing something bad instead? > ~Kai > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > > > > answers: > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > gallons > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > beneficial? > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > remove > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > instead > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52328	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely brighten up your tank. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel H Kai, I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. John*<o)))< * On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > ** > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do on > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > growing something bad instead? > ~Kai > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > > > > answers: > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > gallons > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > beneficial? > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > remove > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > instead > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52329	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Ah, OK. Your "sausage" idea is a good one. I'll do that. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > H Kai, > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do on > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > growing something bad instead? > > ~Kai > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give any > > > > > answers: > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the old > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > gallons > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > remove > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > instead > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52330	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

I'm lucky that moving and a household catastrophe have forced me to empty the tank completely about once a year. But my now five year old tank doesn't build up detritus in the gravel like it used to. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Amber Berglund Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:45 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52331	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hello all, What an interesting dialogue this is turning into! Something that just occurred to me when looking at Bill's recently posted pictures of his Vallis was that they are in shallow gravel substrate but not confined whereas mine are in much deeper substrate [5 or 6 inches] but are in small round pots so I wonder if my plants are being inhibited but not being able to grow outwards? My friend also has a similar set up to Bill &he has some lovely long Vallis growing in there. I would love to plant directly into my gravel but as I have some feisty streamlined Goldfish they would tear up my work almost as soon as I had done it! At least the plants have some degree of protection in the pots. John*<o)))< * On 19 October 2011 20:15, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > Ray.. i was espousing my habit of Land Based Plants... hence shrubs and > trees... When ya dig a shrub or tree up ya lose a lot of those feeder roots > you were talking about... hence a need to cut down on the demand on the > roots by cutting back on the foliage... Sorry for the confusion I > caused..... > In the aquatic environment?.. Save as much root as ya can!!!!!!!!!!!!..Bill > in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:06 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > Bill, > > I'm not really sure what brought about this focus in thinking, but it would > make more sense to cut back the foliage if the plant somehow sustained root > loss (due to the gravel turning black, for example, from putrifying fish > food in the substrate). With not enough roots, the plant would be unable to > feed very much foliage, so cutting that (the foliage) back would be the > thing to do -- after cleaning the gravel, if that promoted the root loss. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant > when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when > moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd > like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in > Va.   > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > > > >  > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. > As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other > botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then > impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in > what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all > botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, > with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not > universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can > set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The > future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the > conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- > which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist > grew those plants you cite. > > > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every > organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will > continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point > in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest > and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The > roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor > despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to > be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, > in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the > form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of > evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it > would have developed only short roots and would have become a different > looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > > is now. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you > on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under > the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who > taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even > after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try > it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming > them all. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you > claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their > food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just > for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious > the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate > nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. > Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the > plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will > only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most > healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter > their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at > the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots > until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very > conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with > these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that > everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental > to them. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. > Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best > when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to > thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question > first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix > the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned > the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross > breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very > little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. > While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this > will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should > help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to > travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed > growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to > do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to > mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). > The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to > check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before > hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is > such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a > good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after > trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the > others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants > should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja > grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the > cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some > of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until > it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. > Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily > sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots > away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy > hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to > grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the > dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way > as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does > send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is > not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near > each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the > dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these > 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end > result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. > (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close > together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and > feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't > work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting > with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the > chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species > in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and > documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the > fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it > up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and > cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a > sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it > out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not > a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this > week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > over fake > > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > Goldfish who see > > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > most of > > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > was the > > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > to pot up > > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > fine. The > > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > although in > > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during > the > > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > trailing > > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > have now > > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > probably > > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > fish that > > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > nibble on > > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > leaves them to > > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew > varieties but over > > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > although > > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > tips on > > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots > with > > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of > the > > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > eat the > > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > looking plant. I > > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I > have 2 > > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > the water > > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > original plant > > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > gotten bored > > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around > some of my > > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > pictures. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > challenging > > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > wholesalers > > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in > my tank it > > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > pink. Its a > > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > growing, which > > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > growth rate > > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth > per strand in > > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > an outlet > > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > though, as > > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you > run your tank > > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > struggle there, > > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical > tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > in a tank > > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a > dead pine tree > > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > ammonia, > > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > the 90 gallon > > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > weed and is > > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > my album so > > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > also needs a > > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > bigger fish > > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like > an > > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > there. I have > > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > accumulate > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I > agree about how > > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used > to run up to > > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I > must admit its > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > Usually I > > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > floating so they > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > pulling > > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > other resting > > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > one, not sure > > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > it yrs ago > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > at least > > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > blue/white pad > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > along with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > growing in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > rocks, and a > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > my other > > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk > plants from the > > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No > fertilizers, no > > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > bit of a rise > > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > 1 rubber > > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I > don't "power > > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > time frame > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > a bit > > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > brine, and from > > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the > fry get large > > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > from the time > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > the summer, > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > special. When > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > on 24/7 > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > turn it off > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its > dark at night. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak > out when it > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > the dark. > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > sticks to eating > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little > fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > said I must > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > because of the > > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > in. Hornwort > > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > doesn't have a > > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > source. Without > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > to keep up > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > organic > > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > about 5 months > > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > just in case, > > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > is also > > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > snails as > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > am feeding > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > rampant in > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > plants, but > > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > for natural > > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > with only > > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, > then I anchor > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > angels spawn > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > use the rock > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find > one for you of > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > anchored. Watch > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > feel free to > > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" > <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting > its > > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, > its > > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great > looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52332	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Hello Kai, I noticed there have been a number of suggestions here on how to handle your new gravel, much of it being conjecture as no one appears to be saying they've done this. While it's a well known fact that most of your nitrifying bacteria are found in your filters, the gravel -- being so very uneven -- holds a lot of nitrifying bacteria itself, even much more than what is found on the smooth glass. It has been PROVEN, that changing out all your old gravel for new will greatly upset your cycle, so much so that -- depending on your bioload -- it may well be very detrimental to the welfare of your fishes. Dora has the right idea this time, as to how this should be handled; the gravel should be changed out a part at a time -- about 1/3 of the gravel with each exchange. The idea of the "sausage" of old gravel is good, although it should be kept in mind that this will not prevent a mini-cycle if all the gravel is changed at once. Nitrifying bacteria in the gravel (I should say -- ON the gravel) only extends down into the gravel as far as well oxygenated water can reach it -- or less than 1/2" at best. When making such sausages, and it's still a good idea, only the top-most old gravel should be used. Then too, when a sausage is made of this gravel, any nitrifying bacteria finding itself in the center of this sausage and extending out to 1/2" inside of the outer layer of gravel in this sausage will be killed from oxygen deprivation. As you regularly deep vacuum your gravel anyway, do this about a week before changing each particular 1/3 of the gravel you intend on doing the following week (don't vacuum the remaining 2/3 of the gravel at this time). This will ensure that the gravel you are removing will not release a lot of detris into the water column -- which you want to avoid with having fish in the tank, and also that you retain as much bacteria as you can with the old gravel until it's all removed. If you can clean your new gravel with old (but clean) aquarium water, so much the better, but otherwise, use tap water with a dechloraminator in it to eliminate any chloramines that would otherwise be saturating your new gravel. Marinating your new gravel in old aquarium water will do little to establish nitifying bacteria as this would not ensure it actually growing to the gravel surfaces. Nitrifying bacteria that is growing on any surface takes time in getting established as it creates an actual film. Such a film of bacteria can't be created just by soaking the gravel in old bacteria-laden water for a few hours -- all the more reason why you need to change out the gravel in portions, to give each new portion time to grow new bacteria while you still retain some old gravel in the tank. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably > what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all > without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. > > > > You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely > brighten up your tank. > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > > > > H Kai, > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... > <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do > on > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > growing something bad instead? > > ~Kai > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give > any > > > > > answers: > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the > old > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > gallons > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > remove > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > instead > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52333	From: Ray	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hello John, Potting your Val isn't a bad idea, and undoubtedly necessary to prevent them from being uprooted by your Goldfish, but if too small of pots are used, the roots will become "root-bound." They will have extended out as far as they can within the pot and are then circling the inside perimeter of the pot excessively. This does not mean that the roots should be trimmed, but that you need to replant them in larger pots to accomodate their larger root system. As they're still being confined to less than ideal conditions for growing, as compared to Bill's giving his Vals free-run of his entire substrate, it would serve them better if nutrient additives were added to their pots, such as aquarium-type Planttabs, using only a half a tablet (broken into yet smaller pieces) in each pot. I used to grow my Val circling the tank as it proceeded to grow runners every 6" or so, along each inside glass until it came back around. Then, I'd "train" it to make inner circles in the tank by redirecting the newer runners. Had to start giving the plants away after a while, they got to be so many. By now you're probably aware that for best Val growth, that having Goldfish constantly nibbling the leaves down does hold them back too from thriving. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hello all, > > What an interesting dialogue this is turning into! Something that just > occurred to me when looking at Bill's recently posted pictures of his Vallis > was that they are in shallow gravel substrate but not confined whereas mine > are in much deeper substrate [5 or 6 inches] but are in small round pots so > I wonder if my plants are being inhibited but not being able to grow > outwards? My friend also has a similar set up to Bill &he has some lovely > long Vallis growing in there. > > I would love to plant directly into my gravel but as I have some feisty > streamlined Goldfish they would tear up my work almost as soon as I had done > it! At least the plants have some degree of protection in the pots. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 20:15, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Ray.. i was espousing my habit of Land Based Plants... hence shrubs and > > trees... When ya dig a shrub or tree up ya lose a lot of those feeder roots > > you were talking about... hence a need to cut down on the demand on the > > roots by cutting back on the foliage... Sorry for the confusion I > > caused..... > > In the aquatic environment?.. Save as much root as ya can!!!!!!!!!!!!..Bill > > in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:06 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > > > > Bill, > > > > I'm not really sure what brought about this focus in thinking, but it would > > make more sense to cut back the foliage if the plant somehow sustained root > > loss (due to the gravel turning black, for example, from putrifying fish > > food in the substrate). With not enough roots, the plant would be unable to > > feed very much foliage, so cutting that (the foliage) back would be the > > thing to do -- after cleaning the gravel, if that promoted the root loss. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant > > when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when > > moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd > > like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in > > Va.   > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > > > > > > >  > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. > > As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other > > botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then > > impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in > > what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all > > botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, > > with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not > > universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can > > set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The > > future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the > > conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- > > which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist > > grew those plants you cite. > > > > > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every > > organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will > > continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point > > in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest > > and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The > > roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor > > despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to > > be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, > > in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the > > form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of > > evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it > > would have developed only short roots and would have become a different > > looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > > > is now. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you > > on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under > > the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who > > taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even > > after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try > > it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming > > them all. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you > > claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their > > food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just > > for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious > > the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate > > nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. > > Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the > > plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will > > only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most > > healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter > > their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > > > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at > > the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots > > until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very > > conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with > > these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that > > everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental > > to them. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. > > Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best > > when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to > > thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question > > first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix > > the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned > > the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross > > breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very > > little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. > > While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this > > will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should > > help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to > > travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed > > growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to > > do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to > > mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). > > The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to > > check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before > > hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is > > such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a > > good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after > > trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the > > others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants > > should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja > > grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the > > cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some > > of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until > > it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. > > Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily > > sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots > > away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy > > hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to > > grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the > > dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way > > as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does > > send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is > > not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near > > each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the > > dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these > > 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end > > result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. > > (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close > > together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and > > feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > > > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't > > work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting > > with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the > > chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species > > in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and > > documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the > > fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it > > up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and > > cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a > > sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it > > out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > > > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not > > a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this > > week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > > over fake > > > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > > Goldfish who see > > > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > > most of > > > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > > was the > > > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > > to pot up > > > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > > fine. The > > > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > > although in > > > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during > > the > > > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > > trailing > > > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > > have now > > > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > > probably > > > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > > fish that > > > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > > nibble on > > > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > > leaves them to > > > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew > > varieties but over > > > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > > although > > > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > > tips on > > > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots > > with > > > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of > > the > > > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > > eat the > > > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > > looking plant. I > > > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I > > have 2 > > > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > > the water > > > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > > original plant > > > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > > gotten bored > > > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around > > some of my > > > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > > pictures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > > challenging > > > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > > wholesalers > > > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in > > my tank it > > > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > > pink. Its a > > > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > > growing, which > > > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > > growth rate > > > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth > > per strand in > > > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > > an outlet > > > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > > though, as > > > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you > > run your tank > > > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > > struggle there, > > > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical > > tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > > in a tank > > > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a > > dead pine tree > > > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > > ammonia, > > > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > > the 90 gallon > > > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > > weed and is > > > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > > my album so > > > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > > also needs a > > > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > > bigger fish > > > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like > > an > > > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > > there. I have > > > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > > accumulate > > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I > > agree about how > > > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used > > to run up to > > > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I > > must admit its > > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > > Usually I > > > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > > floating so they > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > > pulling > > > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > > other resting > > > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > > one, not sure > > > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > > it yrs ago > > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > > at least > > > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > > blue/white pad > > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > > along with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > > growing in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > > rocks, and a > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > > my other > > > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk > > plants from the > > > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No > > fertilizers, no > > > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > > bit of a rise > > > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > > 1 rubber > > > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I > > don't "power > > > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > > time frame > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > > a bit > > > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > > brine, and from > > > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the > > fry get large > > > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > > from the time > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > > the summer, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > > special. When > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > > on 24/7 > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > > turn it off > > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its > > dark at night. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak > > out when it > > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > > the dark. > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > > sticks to eating > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little > > fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > > said I must > > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > > because of the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > > in. Hornwort > > > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > > doesn't have a > > > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > > source. Without > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > > to keep up > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > > organic > > > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > > about 5 months > > > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > > just in case, > > > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > > is also > > > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > > snails as > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > > am feeding > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > > rampant in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > > plants, but > > > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > > for natural > > > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > > with only > > > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, > > then I anchor > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > > angels spawn > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > > use the rock > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find > > one for you of > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > > anchored. Watch > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > > feel free to > > > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" > > <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting > > its > > > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, > > its > > > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great > > looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52334	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?

> Mystery snails have a short life span (only about 2-3 years depending on > how warm you keep your water, the warmer the water the faster they grow > and the shorter their life span). > It's really easy to starve mystery snails as well, that's how I lost a > lot of mine (too much competition with my pleco's for food). I only have > 3-4 mystery snails left now, which saddens me too. > Sometimes they will float for a week or more on the surface and just > "hybernate" and not actually be dead. > Did you push on their trap door to see if they react? If they suck > further into their shell and seal up then the snail isn't actually dead, > if it just hangs there and doesn't react then it's most likely dead and > it should have a very obvious (foul) smell as well. > The most common cause of mystery snail death is starvation though, if > they can't find food mine just seem to give up after a day or two and die. > Check out: > www.applesnail.net > For lots of info on mystery snails (and other types of aquatic snails as > well). It has a lot of info. Thanks, you guys! I haven't vacuumed the gravel because of the newly hatched angelfish babies. Though they are all gone today. So I guess I can get out the vacuum. Not my favorite chore. Water tests and LOOKS clean though. Fish seem happy and healthy. The tank stays around 77-78F, is that not appropriate? The snails were from a silent auction at the local club a couple months ago, no idea who they came from, but they were medium to small. Seeing them at the top of the tank, they have all doubled in size since I got them, so they shouldn't be old yet. The tank is HEAVILY planted with live plants, and the snails have been great about keeping algae and whatever off the plants, or the tank is doing better at last. I feed algae wafers to the corys (two of them about 2" long), and the angels eat the algae wafers like candy so I worry a lot about the CORY cats getting enough to eat, but I haven't noticed the snails eating any of the algae wafers, maybe they get eaten too fast by the fish. I am careful to only put out enough food that it is eaten within a minute, like we did when I was a kid and we had an overstuffed community tank. Is that the wrong amount of time? Will go check out the snail site, thanks for the link! laurie (Mother Mastiff) Silk Hope Fiber Farm and Philippine blue, smokey, pearlscale, red eyed angelfish

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52335	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Mysterious snail behavior, is something WRONG?

When mystery snails are still young (around 1/2 inch or smaller) they will actively eat algae, as they get older they STOP eating algae (sad I know, but very true). They will eat decaying plant matter (or if your plants are healthy they will eat left over foods, but they are slow so if the food is already gone before they browse through your tank they will starve instead). I'm fairly certain you're starving your poor snails :( I was doing the same until I did more research. Do you feed them anything other than sinking algae wafers? Try some butternut squash, just take a slice and put it in a bowl of water in the microwave for just a couple minutes to blanch it, then you'll have to weigh it down somehow. Make sure to pull it out the next morning if it has not been fully eaten, as it will foul up your water if you leave it in too long, I usually put it in in the evening before lights out and remove it the next morning. Some people will tie the veggies to a rock or decoration. I bought some pleco veggie feeders off of aquabid.com and they work great for feeding any veggies that want to float rather than sink. Here is a link to an auction from the person I bought my veggie feeders and pleco kits from: http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?breeding&1319380808 <http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?breeding&1319380808> I feed my mystery snails/plecos and cory catfish; squash, cucumber, and zucchini. I try to feed these at least once a week but sometimes I forget. I supplement with sinking algae wafers, shrimp pellets and flake foods, as well as occasional frozen foods (mysis shrimp, bloodworms). Amber On 10/19/2011 4:15 PM, mothermastiff wrote: > > > Mystery snails have a short life span (only about 2-3 years > depending on > > how warm you keep your water, the warmer the water the faster they grow > > and the shorter their life span). > > It's really easy to starve mystery snails as well, that's how I lost a > > lot of mine (too much competition with my pleco's for food). I only > have > > 3-4 mystery snails left now, which saddens me too. > > Sometimes they will float for a week or more on the surface and just > > "hybernate" and not actually be dead. > > Did you push on their trap door to see if they react? If they suck > > further into their shell and seal up then the snail isn't actually > dead, > > if it just hangs there and doesn't react then it's most likely dead and > > it should have a very obvious (foul) smell as well. > > The most common cause of mystery snail death is starvation though, if > > they can't find food mine just seem to give up after a day or two > and die. > > Check out: > > www.applesnail.net > > For lots of info on mystery snails (and other types of aquatic > snails as > > well). It has a lot of info. > > Thanks, you guys! I haven't vacuumed the gravel because of the newly > hatched angelfish babies. Though they are all gone today. So I guess I > can get out the vacuum. Not my favorite chore. Water tests and LOOKS > clean though. Fish seem happy and healthy. > > The tank stays around 77-78F, is that not appropriate? > > The snails were from a silent auction at the local club a couple > months ago, no idea who they came from, but they were medium to small. > Seeing them at the top of the tank, they have all doubled in size > since I got them, so they shouldn't be old yet. > > The tank is HEAVILY planted with live plants, and the snails have been > great about keeping algae and whatever off the plants, or the tank is > doing better at last. > > I feed algae wafers to the corys (two of them about 2" long), and the > angels eat the algae wafers like candy so I worry a lot about the CORY > cats getting enough to eat, but I haven't noticed the snails eating > any of the algae wafers, maybe they get eaten too fast by the fish. > > I am careful to only put out enough food that it is eaten within a > minute, like we did when I was a kid and we had an overstuffed > community tank. Is that the wrong amount of time? > > Will go check out the snail site, thanks for the link! > > laurie (Mother Mastiff) > Silk Hope Fiber Farm > and Philippine blue, smokey, > pearlscale, red eyed angelfish > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52336	From: Bill	Date: 10/19/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Would anyone mind if I posted pics of the other tanks that are planted?.. Note..I've only $20.00 invested in plants todate... I've given away a ton to some members of our local fish club.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 9:02 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn!   Hello John, Potting your Val isn't a bad idea, and undoubtedly necessary to prevent them from being uprooted by your Goldfish, but if too small of pots are used, the roots will become "root-bound." They will have extended out as far as they can within the pot and are then circling the inside perimeter of the pot excessively. This does not mean that the roots should be trimmed, but that you need to replant them in larger pots to accomodate their larger root system. As they're still being confined to less than ideal conditions for growing, as compared to Bill's giving his Vals free-run of his entire substrate, it would serve them better if nutrient additives were added to their pots, such as aquarium-type Planttabs, using only a half a tablet (broken into yet smaller pieces) in each pot. I used to grow my Val circling the tank as it proceeded to grow runners every 6" or so, along each inside glass until it came back around. Then, I'd "train" it to make inner circles in the tank by redirecting the newer runners. Had to start giving the plants away after a while, they got to be so many. By now you're probably aware that for best Val growth, that having Goldfish constantly nibbling the leaves down does hold them back too from thriving. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hello all, > > What an interesting dialogue this is turning into! Something that just > occurred to me when looking at Bill's recently posted pictures of his Vallis > was that they are in shallow gravel substrate but not confined whereas mine > are in much deeper substrate [5 or 6 inches] but are in small round pots so > I wonder if my plants are being inhibited but not being able to grow > outwards? My friend also has a similar set up to Bill &he has some lovely > long Vallis growing in there. > > I would love to plant directly into my gravel but as I have some feisty > streamlined Goldfish they would tear up my work almost as soon as I had done > it! At least the plants have some degree of protection in the pots. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 20:15, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Ray.. i was espousing my habit of Land Based Plants... hence shrubs and > > trees... When ya dig a shrub or tree up ya lose a lot of those feeder roots > > you were talking about... hence a need to cut down on the demand on the > > roots by cutting back on the foliage... Sorry for the confusion I > > caused..... > > In the aquatic environment?.. Save as much root as ya can!!!!!!!!!!!!..Bill > > in Va. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 1:06 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > > > > Bill, > > > > I'm not really sure what brought about this focus in thinking, but it would > > make more sense to cut back the foliage if the plant somehow sustained root > > loss (due to the gravel turning black, for example, from putrifying fish > > food in the substrate). With not enough roots, the plant would be unable to > > feed very much foliage, so cutting that (the foliage) back would be the > > thing to do -- after cleaning the gravel, if that promoted the root loss. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant > > when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when > > moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd > > like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in > > Va.   > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > > > > > > > >  > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. > > As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other > > botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then > > impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in > > what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all > > botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, > > with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not > > universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can > > set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The > > future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the > > conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- > > which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist > > grew those plants you cite. > > > > > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every > > organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will > > continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point > > in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest > > and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The > > roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor > > despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to > > be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, > > in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the > > form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of > > evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it > > would have developed only short roots and would have become a different > > looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > > > is now. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you > > on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under > > the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who > > taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even > > after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try > > it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming > > them all. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), > > I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you > > claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their > > food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just > > for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious > > the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate > > nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. > > Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the > > plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will > > only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most > > healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter > > their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be > > when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > > > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and > > nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at > > the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots > > until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very > > conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with > > these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that > > everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental > > to them. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the > > temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. > > Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best > > when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to > > thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val > > plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question > > first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix > > the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned > > the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross > > breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very > > little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when > > repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. > > While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this > > will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should > > help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots > > make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are > > "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to > > travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed > > growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to > > do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to > > mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). > > The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to > > check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before > > hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is > > such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a > > good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the > > plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the > > others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after > > trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the > > others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants > > should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs > > during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja > > grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the > > cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some > > of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until > > it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. > > Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily > > sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots > > away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy > > hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to > > grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the > > dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in > > the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way > > as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does > > send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is > > not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near > > each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the > > dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these > > 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end > > result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. > > (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close > > together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and > > feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is > > entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > > > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in > > the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't > > work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting > > with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the > > chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species > > in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and > > documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the > > fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it > > up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and > > cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a > > sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching > > someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it > > out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > > > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not > > a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this > > week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will > > get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants > > over fake > > > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my > > Goldfish who see > > > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & > > most of > > > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis > > was the > > > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had > > to pot up > > > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing > > fine. The > > > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 > > although in > > > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during > > the > > > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the > > trailing > > > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I > > have now > > > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I > > probably > > > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 > > fish that > > > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously > > nibble on > > > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then > > leaves them to > > > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew > > varieties but over > > > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type > > although > > > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any > > tips on > > > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots > > with > > > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of > > the > > > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to > > eat the > > > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice > > looking plant. I > > > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I > > have 2 > > > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in > > the water > > > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the > > original plant > > > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have > > gotten bored > > > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around > > some of my > > > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your > > pictures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be > > challenging > > > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the > > wholesalers > > > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in > > my tank it > > > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring > > pink. Its a > > > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast > > growing, which > > > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked > > growth rate > > > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth > > per strand in > > > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find > > an outlet > > > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank > > though, as > > > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you > > run your tank > > > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to > > struggle there, > > > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical > > tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out > > in a tank > > > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a > > dead pine tree > > > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge > > ammonia, > > > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is > > the 90 gallon > > > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a > > weed and is > > > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in > > my album so > > > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it > > also needs a > > > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the > > bigger fish > > > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like > > an > > > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in > > there. I have > > > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to > > accumulate > > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I > > agree about how > > > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used > > to run up to > > > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c > > <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I > > must admit its > > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. > > Usually I > > > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more > > floating so they > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of > > pulling > > > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the > > other resting > > > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest > > one, not sure > > > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought > > it yrs ago > > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them > > at least > > > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect > > the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some > > blue/white pad > > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges > > along with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo > > growing in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round > > rocks, and a > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from > > my other > > > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk > > plants from the > > > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No > > fertilizers, no > > > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a > > bit of a rise > > > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, > > 1 rubber > > > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I > > don't "power > > > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month > > time frame > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just > > a bit > > > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby > > brine, and from > > > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the > > fry get large > > > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry > > from the time > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in > > the summer, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing > > special. When > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays > > on 24/7 > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to > > turn it off > > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its > > dark at night. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak > > out when it > > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in > > the dark. > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and > > sticks to eating > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little > > fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that > > said I must > > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is > > because of the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it > > in. Hornwort > > > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It > > doesn't have a > > > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food > > source. Without > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes > > to keep up > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any > > organic > > > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was > > about 5 months > > > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr > > just in case, > > > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank > > is also > > > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn > > snails as > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I > > am feeding > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing > > rampant in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the > > plants, but > > > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground > > for natural > > > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away > > with only > > > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, > > then I anchor > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the > > angels spawn > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I > > use the rock > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find > > one for you of > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all > > anchored. Watch > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please > > feel free to > > > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" > > <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting > > its > > > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, > > its > > > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great > > looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52337	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Ray, My suggestion to John about trimming the roots is not based on just something I was told by a botanist friend of mine, but rather my statement "the proof is in the pudding" meant that I, myself, have been doing this for many yrs and have seen the results first hand, repeatedly and had wonderful results from it. I was taught to do this many yrs ago by my botanist friend, and when I doubted him then he offered me the same type of situation I suggested to John... try it on one and see what happens. So I did. I have been doing it ever since because of the results I saw first hand with my own plants and those at the store where we raised them to sell. The trimming of the roots stimulates growth and allows for the plants to feed better/easier because the route the food takes to offer nutrition to the plant isn't as long (having been trimmed) to reach the plant. Think of the roots in terms of "feeding tubes". The further the food has to go to reach the plant the longer it takes for the plant to get the full nutrition from the food. Now, I did warn not to trim them too short, as this would harm the plant. 2 - 3 inches in length should be left when the trimming is complete, and these roots will continue to grow again after trimming, along with continued growth of the plant. It is not my habit to suggest others do things I have not first tried/done successfully myself. I guess this is just going to have to be another topic we will have to agree to disagree about, and the choice whether or not to try it is entirely up to John. I hope that if he does try it he will come back and offer the end results here in the group after the plants have had a few wks to a month's time to show some kind of change. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it is now. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > round > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52338	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Hi Bill... No confusion, I meant what it was I stated about trimming roots, not foliage. As far as "worked under a botanist" it means that one of my bosses for 6 1/2 yrs was a botanist, with a master's degree in botany. I am not confused. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray... do you think she is confusing cutting back the foliage of a plant when transplanting due to root loss?.. I do that as a matter of course when moving shrubs, trees etc.  Perhaps that's what she is confused about!..I'd like to know what "worked under" a botanist really means!... LOL.. Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 11:07 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > >   > Hi Dawn, > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it > is now. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health > is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that > do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > round > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52339	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Just to add to what's already been said here, there is no reason to remove the fish when changing out the gravel. A wide hose can be used to siphon the gravel into a bucket, along with any detritus that is present on the bottom of the tank and within the old gravel bed. I have used this method many times over the years and it is not only easier, but less stressful on the fish. Adding the new gravel can be done with a cup, put the cup full of new gravel down into the tank and pour it out near the bottom. This will also create less "mess" within the water column because you won't be stirring everything up. If you wish to seed the new gravel bed you can take some of the old gravel and put it into a nylon stocking or mesh bag and set it into the tank on the gravel (easy removal later without mixing it into the new gravel). Just be sure not to rinse the old gravel in clean water before putting it into the stocking. I buy wider hose lengths at the local Fleet Farm for 30 cents - 50 cents/ft (depending on diameter), which is rather cheap when you consider you only need to reach from the tank bottom to the bottom of the bucket, usually 5 - 6 ft of hose is plenty. Depending on the size of the gravel you're siphoning out, usually a 1 - 1 1/2 inch hose will do the trick. Any water that siphons out with the gravel can easily be poured back into the tank until the process is finished and then a small water change can be done to the tank if needed. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably > what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all > without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. > > > > You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely > brighten up your tank. > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > > > > H Kai, > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... > <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do > on > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > growing something bad instead? > > ~Kai > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give > any > > > > > answers: > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the > old > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > gallons > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > remove > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > instead > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52340	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plant Pics, was - Yo Dawn!

Bill, Pics of anything having to do with this hobby are never discouraged from being posted. No one needs to open them if they choose not to, but they'll probably be of interest to someone -- provided they're not duplicate scenes. I sometimes delete duplicate scenes for the reason they're superfluous. Ray </HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52341	From: Ray	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Dawn, In reading through your present message, I note that you repeated the same description of your take on roots, comparing them to "feeding tubes" and completely ignoring the previous post to you on this subject explaining the correct way of understanding plants' roots systems. I would seem as though you may not even have read my message thoroughly even to even want to consider the facts I presented to you. It does not take the plants any longer to get their nutrients through long roots, as these roots are continuously filled with nutrients from their very outer tips to the plant's crown -- just as with the "pipeline" you describe, only the plant doesn't need to wait until the nutrients arrive from the far end; the nutrients are continually at the plant's base ready for use. I will not debate this with you any further though. I do note that in Message #52279 (10/15/11 @ 6:38PM) that John specifically asked you for advice on pruning and repotting his plants. If he so chooses to believe what you tell him as the correct methods of doing this, without considering others' advice, that's completely up to him. But, even as it's apparent that you merely recommend your methods to him, and relayed how your methods appear to work for you (which no one needs to follow), you go on to state what you hypothesize to be a correct explanation of how plant roots work, including drawing an erroneous comparison to plant roots and "feeding tubes," and other false and unproven claims that longer roots make it more difficult for plants to take up food. I do note too that you told John to be cautious in just trying this in one pot -- perfectly fine again if John wants to follow your advice, which I have no problem with. This belief of yours though, is contrary to all accepted and conventional ways of understanding plants' roots systems and should not be told to other members here by you as botanically correct when it's only how you perceive it as learned from your botanist friend -- if you even understood him correctly. This is your conjecture only, and in my opinion a bad one at that since it holds no basis. These are not the only misconceptions you've generated here as being universally acceptable, when they are only your opinions. I cannot permit these frequent disruptive and misleading posts which other members may wrongly see as fact, possibly try them with expected bad results and reflecting poorly on the advice given them here. If you want to express them as your opinions, your perfectly free to do so, but don't state them as though they are fact when they are not. You need to fully clarify that this is your own dream only. This goes beyond agreeing to disagree, when false (or unproven) information is promoted as being the norm, as it impacts all who read it. I'm reluctant to put such messages back on moderation but I will if I feel I need to. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Ray, > My suggestion to John about trimming the roots is not based on just something I was told by a botanist friend of mine, but rather my statement "the proof is in the pudding" meant that I, myself, have been doing this for many yrs and have seen the results first hand, repeatedly and had wonderful results from it. > > I was taught to do this many yrs ago by my botanist friend, and when I doubted him then he offered me the same type of situation I suggested to John... try it on one and see what happens. So I did. I have been doing it ever since because of the results I saw first hand with my own plants and those at the store where we raised them to sell. > > The trimming of the roots stimulates growth and allows for the plants to feed better/easier because the route the food takes to offer nutrition to the plant isn't as long (having been trimmed) to reach the plant. Think of the roots in terms of "feeding tubes". The further the food has to go to reach the plant the longer it takes for the plant to get the full nutrition from the food. > > Now, I did warn not to trim them too short, as this would harm the plant. 2 - 3 inches in length should be left when the trimming is complete, and these roots will continue to grow again after trimming, along with continued growth of the plant. > > It is not my habit to suggest others do things I have not first tried/done successfully myself. I guess this is just going to have to be another topic we will have to agree to disagree about, and the choice whether or not to try it is entirely up to John. I hope that if he does try it he will come back and offer the end results here in the group after the plants have had a few wks to a month's time to show some kind of change. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it is now. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52342	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Thank you all for your good advice. The old and new gravel are quite different and I don't want them to mix -- so as much as I'd like to replace it a little at a time, ALL of the old will have to come out before the new goes in. "Sausages" of old will have to ease the transition. "Well-seasoned" filter media and reusing the decorations should help too. Will I get to it later today? Maybe. A deep clean, followed by gravel removal, followed by new gravel with sausages, followed by replacing the PWC lost in the deep clean. House water is from our own well so there's no chlorine or other chemicals. And then I guess I'll just have to keep an eye on my water tests and hope for the best. They're a healthy and hardy bunch so..... ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I'm lucky that moving and a household catastrophe have forced me to empty > the tank completely about once a year. But my now five year old tank > doesn't build up detritus in the gravel like it used to. > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Amber Berglund > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 4:45 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > Amber > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52343	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

OOOOHHHHH NNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!! The water in the bucket has gone alkaline! The stones aren't neutral as I expected them to be. Bummer! ~Kai

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52344	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

As a planted aquarium hobbyist for some 20 years, I agree with Dawn's advice on this issue of trimming roots. Since "expert" sources seem to be wanted, I will briefly cite from Peter Hiscock, a noted British aquatics-trained author of several well-received books. The following excerpts are from his Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants, Barrons, 2003. On planting new potted plants such as Vallisneria: "If there is a large amount of root growth, cut it back as described for bunch plants to minimize damage during planting." The bunch plant description reads: "If there is long root growth on the plants, trim it down to about 0.8-1.2 in (2-3 cm) using sharp scissors. This will minimize any damage to the roots during planting and encourage the plant to produce new roots that will grow downward, anchoring the plant in a natural fashion." Concerning the transplanting of established plants: "The procedure for moving and replanting an established plant is much the same as for planting a new one. The only difference is that the root growth is much more widespread. The roots should still be trimmed, but only to about 1.6-2.4 in (4-6 cm), and older or damaged leaves should be removed." As a terrestrial gardner, I have been similarly advised with respect to many types of garden plants. Byron Hosking, MA --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > In reading through your present message, I note that you repeated the same description of your take on roots, comparing them to "feeding tubes" and completely ignoring the previous post to you on this subject explaining the correct way of understanding plants' roots systems. I would seem as though you may not even have read my message thoroughly even to even want to consider the facts I presented to you. It does not take the plants any longer to get their nutrients through long roots, as these roots are continuously filled with nutrients from their very outer tips to the plant's crown -- just as with the "pipeline" you describe, only the plant doesn't need to wait until the nutrients arrive from the far end; the nutrients are continually at the plant's base ready for use. > > I will not debate this with you any further though. I do note that in Message #52279 (10/15/11 @ 6:38PM) that John specifically asked you for advice on pruning and repotting his plants. If he so chooses to believe what you tell him as the correct methods of doing this, without considering others' advice, that's completely up to him. But, even as it's apparent that you merely recommend your methods to him, and relayed how your methods appear to work for you (which no one needs to follow), you go on to state what you hypothesize to be a correct explanation of how plant roots work, including drawing an erroneous comparison to plant roots and "feeding tubes," and other false and unproven claims that longer roots make it more difficult for plants to take up food. I do note too that you told John to be cautious in just trying this in one pot -- perfectly fine again if John wants to follow your advice, which I have no problem with. > > This belief of yours though, is contrary to all accepted and conventional ways of understanding plants' roots systems and should not be told to other members here by you as botanically correct when it's only how you perceive it as learned from your botanist friend -- if you even understood him correctly. This is your conjecture only, and in my opinion a bad one at that since it holds no basis. These are not the only misconceptions you've generated here as being universally acceptable, when they are only your opinions. I cannot permit these frequent disruptive and misleading posts which other members may wrongly see as fact, possibly try them with expected bad results and reflecting poorly on the advice given them here. If you want to express them as your opinions, your perfectly free to do so, but don't state them as though they are fact when they are not. You need to fully clarify that this is your own dream only. This goes beyond agreeing to disagree, when false (or unproven) information is promoted as being the norm, as it impacts all who read it. I'm reluctant to put such messages back on moderation but I will if I feel I need to. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ wrote: > > > > Ray, > > My suggestion to John about trimming the roots is not based on just something I was told by a botanist friend of mine, but rather my statement "the proof is in the pudding" meant that I, myself, have been doing this for many yrs and have seen the results first hand, repeatedly and had wonderful results from it. > > > > I was taught to do this many yrs ago by my botanist friend, and when I doubted him then he offered me the same type of situation I suggested to John... try it on one and see what happens. So I did. I have been doing it ever since because of the results I saw first hand with my own plants and those at the store where we raised them to sell. > > > > The trimming of the roots stimulates growth and allows for the plants to feed better/easier because the route the food takes to offer nutrition to the plant isn't as long (having been trimmed) to reach the plant. Think of the roots in terms of "feeding tubes". The further the food has to go to reach the plant the longer it takes for the plant to get the full nutrition from the food. > > > > Now, I did warn not to trim them too short, as this would harm the plant. 2 - 3 inches in length should be left when the trimming is complete, and these roots will continue to grow again after trimming, along with continued growth of the plant. > > > > It is not my habit to suggest others do things I have not first tried/done successfully myself. I guess this is just going to have to be another topic we will have to agree to disagree about, and the choice whether or not to try it is entirely up to John. I hope that if he does try it he will come back and offer the end results here in the group after the plants have had a few wks to a month's time to show some kind of change. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Thanks for your reply, it's most appreciated -- but I just can't buy it. As Amber stated, some botanists approve of trimming roots and yet other botanists do not. So, with this being a controversial procedure, it's then impossible to say that there is proof. The "proof" you mention is only in what the botanist you worked under adheres to but not necessarily what all botanists recommend. As such, when recommending something of this nature, with it, you should state that this would be experimental and that it's not universally accepted but just your way of looking at things -- as this can set John's plants back by months by trimming them -- if they survive. The future success of a plant with trimmed roots depends directly on the conditions (nutrients, lighting, etc.) supplied to it after this is done -- which may not be the same in John's case as compared to how your botanist grew those plants you cite. > > > > > > What's not being considered is, that at this point in time, that every organism on earth has evolved to, that even though constant mutation will continue to exist just as it has through the millenia, up until this point in time the development of every species extant to date is at its fullest and most advanced in enabling it to be as successful as it has become. The roots on Valisneria have not developed to this extent just by accident, nor despite the plant's welfare, but have evolved out of necessity as found to be the most beneficial to the plant up until now. Evolution of this plant, in its present form, is proof in itself that the plant will do best in the form it has evolved to. Otherwise -- IT WOULD NOT EXIST. On its path of evolution, if it was found that long roots were a disadvantage to it, it would have developed only short roots and would have become a different looking plant (with short roots), being a somewhat different species than it is now. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Ray! There was a time when I would have completely agreed with you on this, however, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. I worked under the direction of a botanist for a number of years and he was the one who taught this to me. I didn't believe it until I saw it for myself... even after he explained the science behind it, this is why I suggested John try it with only 1 of his pots, so he could see that it works before trimming them all. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi John, > > > > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > > > > for it. > > > > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > > > > round > > > > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > > > > 50 > > > > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > > > > them up > > > > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > > > > it was > > > > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > > > > once or > > > > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > > > > media > > > > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > > > > additives > > > > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > > > > there > > > > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > > > > until > > > > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > > > > goes > > > > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > > > > likes > > > > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > > > > root > > > > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > > > > ago > > > > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > > > > food > > > > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > > > > again. > > > > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > > > > work > > > > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52345	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!

Ray, considering the controversy here, and considering that some experts/botanists suggest it while others don't, then couldn't it be said that to not trim them is just as controversial as trimming them? I thought we come here to pass on/share information with others based on our own experiences? That's what I've done. To call my personal experience controversial means there are a zillion posts in this group that could also be labeled the same way, not all of them written by me. I thought we were here to share and let each person decide for themselves who's advice they wish to follow instead of dictating to them what they can and can't do? You and I have disagreed before and I'm sure we will again. Your comment sort of sounds like I'm not allowed to post anything that doesn't agree with you... I hope that isn't how it was intended. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we are just going to have to agree to disagree about this topic. Having practiced root trimming for many yrs with good results and not having ever killed a plant by doing so, my opinion of it being good for promoting growth isn't going to change. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Dawn, > > Continuing on this thread, I'm very glad you've had great results with trimming aquatic plant roots, but please don't recommend it to others as normal practice when it's so controversial. Just because you've had good luck with this procedure doesn't necessarily mean that this drastic step is best for the plants. As for your explantion that longer roots make it more difficult to take up food, and that roots are like feeding tubes -- and the longer they are the further the nutients will have to travel completely lacks credibility when realizing the feeding processes of rooted plants. > > Perhaps you may not have consider this either, but long roots hardly make it more difficult for the plant to get its nutrients. The longer and the more finer (thinner) root hairs growing from these many long roots enables the plant to take in more nutrients, and to reach all areas surrounding it to obtain as much nutrient as it possibly can. Short roots just serve to cut the plant off from access to nutrients. YES, I WILL AGREE -- roots ARE like feeding tubes -- BUT you're not considering that these TUBES are constantly loaded with food -- just as a hose is constantly filled with water. The plant is not immediately dependent on the food that is being taken up at the far end of its root system as the entire length of these roots are constantly filled with nutrients; the plant feeds on the nutrients that have been brought to it over time by the many long roots that are reaching out from the plant in all directions, that are now at the base of the plant ready to be used. The more and the longer the roots, the more nutrients will constantly be available. It doesn't need to wait for nutrients brought to it from the far end of the "TUBE" when the "TUBE" is constantly filled. When all these long roots soak up these nutrients, they are brought to the plant in a constant chain of them and the more and the longer roots there are, the more chains (acting like constant long multiple trains of nutrients) of nutrients are available to the plant at any given time. > > If you had numerous small hoses feeding into one central hose, and you had many of these long central hoses all leading to oner place, you would have more water than you could use. While it's not quite as easy for the plant to obtain its nutrients, the more and the longer the roots, the easier it is for the plant to get more and more nutrients with longer and more roots. These nutrients are brought through the roots by a process called "capillary action," which is a constant flow through the cell membranes of the many long roots reaching every available nutrient source that they can reach. This capillary action is similar to what happens when a more advanced vascular plant like a tree absorbs nurients through its roots and passes the nutrients up to its leaves through its inner bark (Xylem). The roots are at ground level and below. The leaves, depending on the height of the tree, may be 40 or 60 feet in the air, yet by capillary action of its sap up through this inner bark, the leaves obtain nourishment while passing the food made by the nutrients & light (through the process of photosynthesis) down to the rest of the tree (via the Phloem -- a similar inner bark system) to feed it again by capillary action. Simpler aquatic plants are similar in their feeding processes -- which require a good root structure. If such plants as tree could not depend on the process of capillary action in distributing their nutrients and their manufactured (via photosynthesis) food, there would be no trees. > > While I'm not saying your botanist is wrong, I'm saying that perhaps you have misunderstood him as what you're saying DOES NOT make any sense if you -- or anyone else -- are believing that plants are immediately dependent on nutrients brought to it directly from the far end of its root system for immediate use, and that the longer the root system the longer it will take for these nutrients to reach the plant. This way of thinking again is ludicrous, which can be seen when considering what really goes on as I explained it. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > for it. > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > round > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > 50 > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > sort > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > keep the > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > have > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > them up > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > it was > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > once or > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > media > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > the > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > the > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > few > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > tanks > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > additives > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > pleco, > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > feed" my > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > and > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > larger. > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > they > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > then > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > there > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > until > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > with a > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > I > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > goes > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > As > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > the > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > let > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > likes > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > root > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > the > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > with > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > buildup > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > ago > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > loaded > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > they > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > out > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > this > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > food > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > feeding > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > the > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > again. > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > work > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > how > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > for > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > particulars > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52346	From: joe t	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Plants, cutting roots, etc

Hello. I would like to comment on the interesting debate on the plants in the aquarium. I would first like to address John who said he plants his Vals, etc. in pots because the gold fish pull them out of the planting medium. I am a bit confused. I do not understand how the fish can not pull them out of the pots, but they can pull them out of the medium at the tank bottom. I would think if the fish are pulling them up they would be successful either way. As for the plant debate in general, I have always planted my plants in the base medium. The only time I used pots was when I was trying to condition the plants because they were new (most often the reason) and I wanted to 1) get them conditioned to grow better and 2) I treat my new plants the same as I would new fish. They go into a holding tank first. You never know what may come from them. (Especially snail eggs you may miss when cleaning the leaves.) I also trim the decaying parts of the plants. To leave them on would only be detrimental to the plants progress. If it is very bad the plant would probably not survive. For this reason look at the plants you are buying. I know the LFS people do not like you to because they just want to get rid of the plants. But give them a good look. If the roots are brown and look like they are rotting DO NOT by them. Just like you would not buy a plant if the leaves are rotting. Tubers and rhizomes especially. If the base is squishy DO NOT buy it. The roots can be trimmed slightly to accomodate the pot. If you do not trim them they will break and rot in the pot from being crushed. In this process I also cut back the foliage. When the plant is in transition cutting back the foliage will ease up on the plant trying to take in food and will stimulate the roots to grow. If the plant is not being "harassed" ....for lack of a better word....it can form better roots and will probably be a stronger plant. I have also found that a medium of about 1 or 2 inches works best in the tank. Burying the crown of most of these aquatic plants is a sure way to make them rot. This is another reason why I give them some peace in a holding tank. I had told the story, quite awhile back, that I once had to clean a 150 gallon tank and the plants had created such a net of roots that they were coming up like a carpet. LOL. Geez, what a job that was! I forget if it was Steve Szabo or Lenny that agreed and said they also kept a thin layer of medium. This was a while back. If any one would want to, you could probalby find it in the archives of this group. Anyway, that is what I do. If anyone wants to try it or not is up to them. joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52347	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Thanks for giving us some references Byron, much appreciated, hopefully it ends the debate (at least for now). Amber On 10/20/2011 8:33 AM, amphibian_ca wrote: > > > As a planted aquarium hobbyist for some 20 years, I agree with Dawn's > advice on this issue of trimming roots. Since "expert" sources seem to > be wanted, I will briefly cite from Peter Hiscock, a noted British > aquatics-trained author of several well-received books. The following > excerpts are from his Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants, Barrons, 2003. > > On planting new potted plants such as Vallisneria: "If there is a large > amount of root growth, cut it back as described for bunch plants to > minimize damage during planting." The bunch plant description reads: > "If there is long root growth on the plants, trim it down to about > 0.8-1.2 in (2-3 cm) using sharp scissors. This will minimize any damage > to the roots during planting and encourage the plant to produce new > roots that will grow downward, anchoring the plant in a natural > fashion." > > Concerning the transplanting of established plants: "The procedure for > moving and replanting an established plant is much the same as for > planting a new one. The only difference is that the root growth is much > more widespread. The roots should still be trimmed, but only to about > 1.6-2.4 in (4-6 cm), and older or damaged leaves should be removed." > > As a terrestrial gardner, I have been similarly advised with respect to > many types of garden plants. > > Byron Hosking, MA > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > In reading through your present message, I note that you repeated the > same description of your take on roots, comparing them to "feeding > tubes" and completely ignoring the previous post to you on this subject > explaining the correct way of understanding plants' roots systems. I > would seem as though you may not even have read my message thoroughly > even to even want to consider the facts I presented to you. It does not > take the plants any longer to get their nutrients through long roots, as > these roots are continuously filled with nutrients from their very outer > tips to the plant's crown -- just as with the "pipeline" you describe, > only the plant doesn't need to wait until the nutrients arrive from the > far end; the nutrients are continually at the plant's base ready for > use. > > > > I will not debate this with you any further though. I do note that in > Message #52279 (10/15/11 @ 6:38PM) that John specifically asked you for > advice on pruning and repotting his plants. If he so chooses to believe > what you tell him as the correct methods of doing this, without > considering others' advice, that's completely up to him. But, even as > it's apparent that you merely recommend your methods to him, and relayed > how your methods appear to work for you (which no one needs to follow), > you go on to state what you hypothesize to be a correct explanation of > how plant roots work, including drawing an erroneous comparison to plant > roots and "feeding tubes," and other false and unproven claims that > longer roots make it more difficult for plants to take up food. I do > note too that you told John to be cautious in just trying this in one > pot -- perfectly fine again if John wants to follow your advice, which I > have no problem with. > > > > This belief of yours though, is contrary to all accepted and > conventional ways of understanding plants' roots systems and should not > be told to other members here by you as botanically correct when it's > only how you perceive it as learned from your botanist friend -- if you > even understood him correctly. This is your conjecture only, and in my > opinion a bad one at that since it holds no basis. These are not the > only misconceptions you've generated here as being universally > acceptable, when they are only your opinions. I cannot permit these > frequent disruptive and misleading posts which other members may wrongly > see as fact, possibly try them with expected bad results and reflecting > poorly on the advice given them here. If you want to express them as > your opinions, your perfectly free to do so, but don't state them as > though they are fact when they are not. You need to fully clarify that > this is your own dream only. This goes beyond agreeing to disagree, when > false (or unproven) information is promoted as being the norm, as it > impacts all who read it. I'm reluctant to put such messages back on > moderation but I will if I feel I need to. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" > dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ wrote: > > > > > > Ray, > > > My suggestion to John about trimming the roots is not based on just > something I was told by a botanist friend of mine, but rather my > statement "the proof is in the pudding" meant that I, myself, have been > doing this for many yrs and have seen the results first hand, repeatedly > and had wonderful results from it. > > > > > > I was taught to do this many yrs ago by my botanist friend, and when > I doubted him then he offered me the same type of situation I suggested > to John... try it on one and see what happens. So I did. I have been > doing it ever since because of the results I saw first hand with my own > plants and those at the store where we raised them to sell. > > > > > > The trimming of the roots stimulates growth and allows for the > plants to feed better/easier because the route the food takes to offer > nutrition to the plant isn't as long (having been trimmed) to reach the > plant. Think of the roots in terms of "feeding tubes". The further the > food has to go to reach the plant the longer it takes for the plant to > get the full nutrition from the food. > > > > > > Now, I did warn not to trim them too short, as this would harm the > plant. 2 - 3 inches in length should be left when the trimming is > complete, and these roots will continue to grow again after trimming, > along with continued growth of the plant. > > > > > > It is not my habit to suggest others do things I have not first > tried/done successfully myself. I guess this is just going to have to be > another topic we will have to agree to disagree about, and the choice > whether or not to try it is entirely up to John. I hope that if he does > try it he will come back and offer the end results here in the group > after the plants have had a few wks to a month's time to show some kind > of change. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52348	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plants, cutting roots, etc

Hi Joe, I agree my planting methods sound strange but they do seem to work. I only have a sprinkling of small sandy gravel in my tank-approx quarter to half inch in depth. The reason for this is my Goldfish turn this over repeatedly so all the debris gets lifted into the water column & straight into the filters thereby keeping everything nice & clean. If I had a greater depth of gravel the fish would not be able to penetrate through it so I would risk bacteria growing at the bottom of the tank. I like real plants so a solution was to pot them up in regular clay pots & the reason the fish cannot pull them up so easily is the substrate is covered with pebbles with just the plants poking through. If the plants were growing in the bottom of the tank-even with pebbles surrounding the stem they would be easy prey because the fish could eventually nudge the pebbles away from the plant so they could get at them. In the confines of a plant pot the covering of pebbles is quite well packed with no space for movement laterally so there is not much chance of my lot getting to the roots of anything in a pot. They still get to the leaves though & I'm hoping for a solution to that but I won't hold my breath!!! As I mentioned yesterday I'm looking into the idea of using larger & flatter containers for my plants so the roots can go farther horizontally-maybe using an earthenware baking dish or similar? John*<o)))< * On 21 October 2011 00:17, joe t <jett07002@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hello. > I would like to comment on the interesting debate on the plants in the > aquarium. > > I would first like to address John who said he plants his Vals, etc. in > pots because the gold fish pull them out of the planting medium. I am a bit > confused. I do not understand how the fish can not pull them out of the > pots, but they can pull them out of the medium at the tank bottom. I would > think if the fish are pulling them up they would be successful either way. > > As for the plant debate in general, I have always planted my plants in the > base medium. The only time I used pots was when I was trying to condition > the plants because they were new (most often the reason) and I wanted to 1) > get them conditioned to grow better and 2) I treat my new plants the same as > I would new fish. They go into a holding tank first. You never know what may > come from them. (Especially snail eggs you may miss when cleaning the > leaves.) > > I also trim the decaying parts of the plants. To leave them on would only > be detrimental to the plants progress. If it is very bad the plant would > probably not survive. For this reason look at the plants you are buying. I > know the LFS people do not like you to because they just want to get rid of > the plants. But give them a good look. If the roots are brown and look like > they are rotting DO NOT by them. Just like you would not buy a plant if the > leaves are rotting. > Tubers and rhizomes especially. If the base is squishy DO NOT buy it. > > The roots can be trimmed slightly to accomodate the pot. If you do not trim > them they will break and rot in the pot from being crushed. In this process > I also cut back the foliage. When the plant is in transition cutting back > the foliage will ease up on the plant trying to take in food and will > stimulate the roots to grow. > > If the plant is not being "harassed" ....for lack of a better word....it > can form better roots and will probably be a stronger plant. > > I have also found that a medium of about 1 or 2 inches works best in the > tank. Burying the crown of most of these aquatic plants is a sure way to > make them rot. This is another reason why I give them some peace in a > holding tank. > > I had told the story, quite awhile back, that I once had to clean a 150 > gallon tank and the plants had created such a net of roots that they were > coming up like a carpet. LOL. Geez, what a job that was! > > I forget if it was Steve Szabo or Lenny that agreed and said they also kept > a thin layer of medium. This was a while back. If any one would want to, you > could probalby find it in the archives of this group. > > Anyway, that is what I do. If anyone wants to try it or not is up to them. > > joe t > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52349	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

That's bad news-hopefully you haven't touched your tank yet so this is purely a financial loss? Is your new substrate a proper aquarium gravel? If you add anything that isn't specifically for tanks or ponds then you are taking a lottery. On the subject of the sausages of old gravel & heeding the advice of previous posters you might do well to make the sausages quite thin-no more than an inch or so to ensure that none of the good bugs on the old gravel die. John*<o)))< * On 20 October 2011 17:28, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > OOOOHHHHH NNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!! > > The water in the bucket has gone alkaline! The stones aren't neutral as I > expected them to be. > > Bummer! > ~Kai > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52350	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/20/2011
Subject: Re: Plants, cutting roots, etc

Aquatic bonsai?? LOL _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 7:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Plants, cutting roots, etc Hi Joe, I agree my planting methods sound strange but they do seem to work. I only have a sprinkling of small sandy gravel in my tank-approx quarter to half inch in depth. The reason for this is my Goldfish turn this over repeatedly so all the debris gets lifted into the water column & straight into the filters thereby keeping everything nice & clean. If I had a greater depth of gravel the fish would not be able to penetrate through it so I would risk bacteria growing at the bottom of the tank. I like real plants so a solution was to pot them up in regular clay pots & the reason the fish cannot pull them up so easily is the substrate is covered with pebbles with just the plants poking through. If the plants were growing in the bottom of the tank-even with pebbles surrounding the stem they would be easy prey because the fish could eventually nudge the pebbles away from the plant so they could get at them. In the confines of a plant pot the covering of pebbles is quite well packed with no space for movement laterally so there is not much chance of my lot getting to the roots of anything in a pot. They still get to the leaves though & I'm hoping for a solution to that but I won't hold my breath!!! As I mentioned yesterday I'm looking into the idea of using larger & flatter containers for my plants so the roots can go farther horizontally-maybe using an earthenware baking dish or similar? John*<o)))< * On 21 October 2011 00:17, joe t <jett07002@... <mailto:jett07002%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > ** > > > Hello. > I would like to comment on the interesting debate on the plants in the > aquarium. > > I would first like to address John who said he plants his Vals, etc. in > pots because the gold fish pull them out of the planting medium. I am a bit > confused. I do not understand how the fish can not pull them out of the > pots, but they can pull them out of the medium at the tank bottom. I would > think if the fish are pulling them up they would be successful either way. > > As for the plant debate in general, I have always planted my plants in the > base medium. The only time I used pots was when I was trying to condition > the plants because they were new (most often the reason) and I wanted to 1) > get them conditioned to grow better and 2) I treat my new plants the same as > I would new fish. They go into a holding tank first. You never know what may > come from them. (Especially snail eggs you may miss when cleaning the > leaves.) > > I also trim the decaying parts of the plants. To leave them on would only > be detrimental to the plants progress. If it is very bad the plant would > probably not survive. For this reason look at the plants you are buying. I > know the LFS people do not like you to because they just want to get rid of > the plants. But give them a good look. If the roots are brown and look like > they are rotting DO NOT by them. Just like you would not buy a plant if the > leaves are rotting. > Tubers and rhizomes especially. If the base is squishy DO NOT buy it. > > The roots can be trimmed slightly to accomodate the pot. If you do not trim > them they will break and rot in the pot from being crushed. In this process > I also cut back the foliage. When the plant is in transition cutting back > the foliage will ease up on the plant trying to take in food and will > stimulate the roots to grow. > > If the plant is not being "harassed" ....for lack of a better word....it > can form better roots and will probably be a stronger plant. > > I have also found that a medium of about 1 or 2 inches works best in the > tank. Burying the crown of most of these aquatic plants is a sure way to > make them rot. This is another reason why I give them some peace in a > holding tank. > > I had told the story, quite awhile back, that I once had to clean a 150 > gallon tank and the plants had created such a net of roots that they were > coming up like a carpet. LOL. Geez, what a job that was! > > I forget if it was Steve Szabo or Lenny that agreed and said they also kept > a thin layer of medium. This was a while back. If any one would want to, you > could probalby find it in the archives of this group. > > Anyway, that is what I do. If anyone wants to try it or not is up to them. > > joe t > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52351	From: Ray	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Roots/Yo Dawn!

Dawn, A great many more botanists hold with the time-proven and almost universally accepted conventional stance of not cutting back on the very tissue that is feeding the plant, if these tissues (roots) are healthy. While this conception is also held by many of the root trimmers, as it's irrefuteable that this is what supplies plants with their nutrients, they would go a step further in attempts to promote even better uptake of the needed nutrients, and this is where the controversy lies -- not in the fact that lomng roots may be disadvantageous to the plant. Yes, of course, we are all here to share information with others based on our experiences, and I never disallowed that, but it's the way these personal experiences are expressed. I've very pleased if you feel you've seen improvements in plant growth by trimming their roots -- and perhaps in your case you may actually have had better plant performance of your plants by drastically cutting their source of obtaining nutrients back. But that being the case, you can't promote it as the generally accepted procedure normally done, nor can you use your analogy of roots being like feeder tubes to state that a longer feeder tube (or root) necessitates a longer time for nutrients to reach the plant, as regardless of how long the roots are (and they could be 10' long), there is a constant flow of nutients available to the plant at all times. Your theory of this "feeder tube" comparison is like saying that when you turn on your water faucet that you must wait for the water to reach you from the water company's pumping plant and that it's not going to flow immediately upon opening your faucet. Your theory just does not hold water (pun intended). ANY ideas of your own, or by those taught to you by those who have not put enough thought into them to realize that the physics of them are entirely flawed, must be presented by you as opinion and not promoted as fact, as the best way to approach a problem. It's very easy to confused yourself and others when relating that short roots make for faster nutrient uptake but this is absolutely false when we must consider that the nutrients (and more of them, since their are simply more roots) in long roots do not need to wait to reach the plant from where they are first absorbed from the substrate, but that they are constantly available at the plant's base at all times -- just as is your water supply even though it first enters your pipeline miles away. Your take on my intentions ARE NOT as you seem to surmise. As I said, you may post anything factual as fact, but when posting things other than proven, things unconventional or things that YOU found to be advantageous to yourself in matters of aquariology, that you must differentiate them by stating they're your opinions (which others may try if they choose to venture from the path of the tried-and-true and universally accepted way of doing things), which YOU may have had success with in YOUR OWN experiences. When venturing from the conventionally accepted methods of doing things, there are no guarantees to the results, and each person may have different experiences. These methods can't be offered to the members as something that should be done because they bring results, but only that YOUR experiences causes you to suggest to them that they MAY work only since YOU, your teacher, and perhaps others who have taken what is deemed by the majority as being a decided risk have found -- or have suggested to them by what their results seemed to imply -- to "work" for YOU and these other people . I'm glad to see in your closing sentence that you now do suggest root trimming as your opinion -- and again I'm very happy to hear you had good results in promoting plant growth -- which is perfectly acceptable -- as your opinion (and not what's the norm). Please consider what I tried explaining to you about your tap water source and that you obviously don't have to water for water to flow from the water company miles away until it reaches your faucet -- through all that "feeder tube (pipe)" until it get to your home. This same thing is in effect in plants' root systems as there's a constant flow of nutients within the roots at all time no matter their length. Just as there is a balance of osmotic pressure between the water in the aquarium and the freshwater fish residing it it, so is their osmotic pressure between the aquarium water and the plant roots. As the plant uses dissolved nutrients, the water surrounding the roots now having a greater osmotic pressure now forces more dissolved nutrients into the roots at ALL locations along them. Cutting the roots can serve to allow for the release of nutrients back into the aquarium water, just as a wound on a fish will allow the release of bodily electrolytes until the wound heals or until a repair in the fish's slime coating can stop this release (and the addition of salt to the water can reverse the osmotic pressure) -- and just as we bleed when we are cut. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Ray, considering the controversy here, and considering that some experts/botanists suggest it while others don't, then couldn't it be said that to not trim them is just as controversial as trimming them? I thought we come here to pass on/share information with others based on our own experiences? That's what I've done. To call my personal experience controversial means there are a zillion posts in this group that could also be labeled the same way, not all of them written by me. I thought we were here to share and let each person decide for themselves who's advice they wish to follow instead of dictating to them what they can and can't do? You and I have disagreed before and I'm sure we will again. Your comment sort of sounds like I'm not allowed to post anything that doesn't agree with you... I hope that isn't how it was intended. As I mentioned in an earlier post, we are just going to have to agree to disagree about this topic. Having practiced root trimming for many yrs with good results and not having ever killed a plant by doing so, my opinion of it being good for promoting growth isn't going to change. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Dawn, > > > > Continuing on this thread, I'm very glad you've had great results with trimming aquatic plant roots, but please don't recommend it to others as normal practice when it's so controversial. Just because you've had good luck with this procedure doesn't necessarily mean that this drastic step is best for the plants. As for your explantion that longer roots make it more difficult to take up food, and that roots are like feeding tubes -- and the longer they are the further the nutients will have to travel completely lacks credibility when realizing the feeding processes of rooted plants. > > > > Perhaps you may not have consider this either, but long roots hardly make it more difficult for the plant to get its nutrients. The longer and the more finer (thinner) root hairs growing from these many long roots enables the plant to take in more nutrients, and to reach all areas surrounding it to obtain as much nutrient as it possibly can. Short roots just serve to cut the plant off from access to nutrients. YES, I WILL AGREE -- roots ARE like feeding tubes -- BUT you're not considering that these TUBES are constantly loaded with food -- just as a hose is constantly filled with water. The plant is not immediately dependent on the food that is being taken up at the far end of its root system as the entire length of these roots are constantly filled with nutrients; the plant feeds on the nutrients that have been brought to it over time by the many long roots that are reaching out from the plant in all directions, that are now at the base of the plant ready to be used. The more and the longer the roots, the more nutrients will constantly be available. It doesn't need to wait for nutrients brought to it from the far end of the "TUBE" when the "TUBE" is constantly filled. When all these long roots soak up these nutrients, they are brought to the plant in a constant chain of them and the more and the longer roots there are, the more chains (acting like constant long multiple trains of nutrients) of nutrients are available to the plant at any given time. > > > > If you had numerous small hoses feeding into one central hose, and you had many of these long central hoses all leading to oner place, you would have more water than you could use. While it's not quite as easy for the plant to obtain its nutrients, the more and the longer the roots, the easier it is for the plant to get more and more nutrients with longer and more roots. These nutrients are brought through the roots by a process called "capillary action," which is a constant flow through the cell membranes of the many long roots reaching every available nutrient source that they can reach. This capillary action is similar to what happens when a more advanced vascular plant like a tree absorbs nurients through its roots and passes the nutrients up to its leaves through its inner bark (Xylem). The roots are at ground level and below. The leaves, depending on the height of the tree, may be 40 or 60 feet in the air, yet by capillary action of its sap up through this inner bark, the leaves obtain nourishment while passing the food made by the nutrients & light (through the process of photosynthesis) down to the rest of the tree (via the Phloem -- a similar inner bark system) to feed it again by capillary action. Simpler aquatic plants are similar in their feeding processes -- which require a good root structure. If such plants as tree could not depend on the process of capillary action in distributing their nutrients and their manufactured (via photosynthesis) food, there would be no trees. > > > > While I'm not saying your botanist is wrong, I'm saying that perhaps you have misunderstood him as what you're saying DOES NOT make any sense if you -- or anyone else -- are believing that plants are immediately dependent on nutrients brought to it directly from the far end of its root system for immediate use, and that the longer the root system the longer it will take for these nutrients to reach the plant. This way of thinking again is ludicrous, which can be seen when considering what really goes on as I explained it. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi John, > > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > > for it. > > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > > round > > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > > 50 > > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > > sort > > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > > keep the > > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > > have > > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > > them up > > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > > it was > > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > > once or > > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > > media > > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > > the > > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > > the > > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > > few > > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > > tanks > > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > > additives > > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > > pleco, > > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > > feed" my > > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > > and > > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > > larger. > > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > > they > > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > > then > > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > > there > > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > > until > > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > > with a > > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > > I > > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > > goes > > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > > As > > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > > the > > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > > let > > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > > likes > > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > > root > > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > > the > > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > > with > > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > > buildup > > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > > ago > > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > > loaded > > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > > they > > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > > out > > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > > this > > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > > food > > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > > feeding > > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > > the > > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > > again. > > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > > work > > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > > how > > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > > for > > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > > particulars > > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52352	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

:o( I'm just out a few bucks. This was "Calico Stone" from Home Depot. I really thought/hoped it would be neutral stone. It's not. I guess I can figure out a place to put it in my garden. Darn. I hand-sorted all the pretty coin-shaped jewel stones and put the broken pieces and "just plain rocks" into another bucket. Time to make rock fountains??? :oP ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > That's bad news-hopefully you haven't touched your tank yet so this is > purely a financial loss? Is your new substrate a proper aquarium gravel? If > you add anything that isn't specifically for tanks or ponds then you are > taking a lottery. > > On the subject of the sausages of old gravel & heeding the advice of > previous posters you might do well to make the sausages quite thin-no more > than an inch or so to ensure that none of the good bugs on the old gravel > die. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 20 October 2011 17:28, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > OOOOHHHHH NNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!! > > > > The water in the bucket has gone alkaline! The stones aren't neutral as I > > expected them to be. > > > > Bummer! > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52353	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/21/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

At least there's no harm done then & that is a good. I have bought some pebbles for my tank from a garden centre in the past but the label said pond & water course safe-have a look at what else they stock, there might be something similar that is safe to use. John*<o)))< * On 21 October 2011 15:20, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > :o( I'm just out a few bucks. This was "Calico Stone" from Home Depot. I > really thought/hoped it would be neutral stone. It's not. > > I guess I can figure out a place to put it in my garden. Darn. I > hand-sorted all the pretty coin-shaped jewel stones and put the broken > pieces and "just plain rocks" into another bucket. Time to make rock > fountains??? :oP > ~Kai > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > That's bad news-hopefully you haven't touched your tank yet so this is > > purely a financial loss? Is your new substrate a proper aquarium gravel? > If > > you add anything that isn't specifically for tanks or ponds then you are > > taking a lottery. > > > > On the subject of the sausages of old gravel & heeding the advice of > > previous posters you might do well to make the sausages quite thin-no > more > > than an inch or so to ensure that none of the good bugs on the old gravel > > die. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 20 October 2011 17:28, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > OOOOHHHHH NNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!! > > > > > > The water in the bucket has gone alkaline! The stones aren't neutral as > I > > > expected them to be. > > > > > > Bummer! > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52354	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/22/2011
Subject: Speckled Catfish

Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled Catfish'. I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope it's not one of those monsters ;) They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my smaller fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my tanks so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the bag, just got home from the store. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52355	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover

Hi Everyone, Just came across this & was wondering if anyone has any experience with these devices. many of the testimonials claim a reading of zero NO3 in their tank after installation but surely you need some level of nitrate for the system to be working properly? http://www.aquaripure.com/index.htm John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52356	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

Amber, I can see where the snails have removed SOME of the algae on the sides of the tank, but even though i bought an acorn squash and slightly cooked it and put a piece in the tank, and even though I actually dropped the snails ONTO it, not one snail (or the corys or the usually vegetable loving angels) has nibbled at it. In fact, they seem to be avoiding it. The corys are unhappy because it is sitting so near where they usually hang out on the bottom. I had never fed the snails (have had them about 6 weeks), didn't realize they needed to be fed, and don't know who brought them to the meeting to share, to ask what THEY feed. Got to get the cooked squash out of my tank since it was not recognized as food (guess the chickens will enjoy the leftovers!) So, what food should I try next? thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52357	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover

Did you notice the price? WOW! Nothing is better for an aquarium than regular PWCs. Cheaper that a water change or better for the fish? I doubt it. bill in pa --- On Sun, 10/23/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquaripure Nitrate Remover > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 9:56 AM > Hi Everyone, > >   Just came across this & was wondering if anyone > has any experience with > these devices. many of the testimonials claim a reading of > zero NO3 in their > tank after installation but surely you need some level of > nitrate for the > system to be working properly? > > http://www.aquaripure.com/index.htm > > John*<o)))< > > * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52358	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

What kind of snails? Nerites, for example, will only eat algae no prepared food. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mothermastiff Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:27 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Snails won't come NEAR the food! Amber, I can see where the snails have removed SOME of the algae on the sides of the tank, but even though i bought an acorn squash and slightly cooked it and put a piece in the tank, and even though I actually dropped the snails ONTO it, not one snail (or the corys or the usually vegetable loving angels) has nibbled at it. In fact, they seem to be avoiding it. The corys are unhappy because it is sitting so near where they usually hang out on the bottom. I had never fed the snails (have had them about 6 weeks), didn't realize they needed to be fed, and don't know who brought them to the meeting to share, to ask what THEY feed. Got to get the cooked squash out of my tank since it was not recognized as food (guess the chickens will enjoy the leftovers!) So, what food should I try next? thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52359	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover

I find if I let my nitrate in my planted tanks get below 10ppm I get cyanobacteria. Unless your tap water has nitrate, I don't see the point of chemicals like this. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:56 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquaripure Nitrate Remover Hi Everyone, Just came across this & was wondering if anyone has any experience with these devices. many of the testimonials claim a reading of zero NO3 in their tank after installation but surely you need some level of nitrate for the system to be working properly? http://www.aquaripure.com/index.htm John*<o)))< * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52360	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

Sometimes they won't recognize a new food as food right away. How long have you had it in the tank? Here is a direct quote from applesnail.net about mystery snails (pomacea diffusa): /Pomaceadiffusa <http://www.applesnail.net/content/species/pomacea_diffusa.htm>/(spike-topped apple snail, Brazilian apple snail, golden mystery snail and ivory snail) prefers dead and rotting plants above fresh green ones. Occasionally theyeat <http://www.applesnail.net/content/anatomy/digestion.php>the softer vegetation./Pomacea diffusa/snails are thus a good choice for an aquarium equipped with a nice collection of water-plants. What is even more: they tend to starve to dead in the middle of the vegetation if you don't provide them with enough food. The/Pomacea diffusa/apple snails do very well on all kind of fish food and it could be useful to try some soft vegetables for those cases they would like some green food. Very handy types of fish-food are those tablets sold for algae-eaters, but other types of fish-food will do as well. If you like to keep the expenses low, just buy pond-fish food. This comes in a big quantity for a relatively low price and has a big advantage: it keeps floating, so it won't make a mess on the bottom of your aquarium and the left-over can be removed easily. Although floating food might seems a bit strange for snails, apple snails know very well how to handle it: they go to the surface and form a funnel with their foot in which they let the water from the surface flow through (ciliary feeding, as can be seen inecology <http://www.applesnail.net/content/ecology.php#feeding>section and in theanatomy <http://www.applesnail.net/content/anatomy/foot_mantle.php#funnel>section). The food at the surface then floats towards the snail and gets stuck in this funnel after which the snail eats the catch. Hopefully that will help at least a little. Amber On 10/23/2011 4:27 AM, mothermastiff wrote: > > Amber, > > I can see where the snails have removed SOME of the algae on the sides > of the tank, but even though i bought an acorn squash and slightly > cooked it and put a piece in the tank, and even though I actually > dropped the snails ONTO it, not one snail (or the corys or the usually > vegetable loving angels) has nibbled at it. In fact, they seem to be > avoiding it. The corys are unhappy because it is sitting so near where > they usually hang out on the bottom. > > I had never fed the snails (have had them about 6 weeks), didn't > realize they needed to be fed, and don't know who brought them to the > meeting to share, to ask what THEY feed. > > Got to get the cooked squash out of my tank since it was not > recognized as food (guess the chickens will enjoy the leftovers!) > > So, what food should I try next? > > thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52361	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover

Gosh, I was wondering where my cyanobacteria was coming from... Perhaps I'm doing too many PWC's as well? I don't usually use my test kits unless the fish are acting strange, my mystery snails usually tell me right away if my nitrates are getting too high (they tend to hybernate). But I've been doing PWC's every few days in my BN pleco tank (my mystery snails are also in the same tank), because I have so many (30+) young BN pleco's, and I want to make sure they grow up nice and healthy and not stunted. Perhaps I'm lowering my nitrates too much and didn't realize it. My hornwort and naja grass are both growing very well, so I assumed the nitrates weren't TOO low (as they like nitrates and are good plants for lowering your nitrates). Perhaps it's the combination of all the PWC's and the hornwort/naja grass. Amber On 10/23/2011 9:05 AM, Donna Ransome wrote: > > I find if I let my nitrate in my planted tanks get below 10ppm I get > cyanobacteria. Unless your tap water has nitrate, I don't see the point of > chemicals like this. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:56 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquaripure Nitrate Remover > > Hi Everyone, > > Just came across this & was wondering if anyone has any experience with > these devices. many of the testimonials claim a reading of zero NO3 in > their > tank after installation but surely you need some level of nitrate for the > system to be working properly? > > http://www.aquaripure.com/index.htm > > John*<o)))< > > * > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52362	From: mothermastiff	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

Amber, The cooked squash has been in there 36 hours, how long before I should remove it? It looks inert and untouched. The snails are all hiding deep in the foliage, in the dense jungle. Would they respond better to a green veggie? How about blanched green leaf lettuce? There are four or possibly five blue mystery snails in the 30T (they doubled in size in the last 6+ weeks), and it is so heavily planted, the corys barely have a few square inches on the bottom to hang out in. The plants come at east halfway up that 24" tall tank, and then there are some floating frogbits too. Saw a snail hanging upside down eating a dead leaf on a frogbit yesterday. What about using some bigger pieces of fish food that the voracious angels cannot fit in their mouths? Is there any kind of FW fish food in a size that the snails could climb on? I do believe my angelfish aren't pure, they seem to be at least half piranha. Greediest little buggers I have ever seen, and if I forget and feed an extra time a day, or more live blackworms fall off the spoon than I intended, they will eat till they are as wide as pregnant mollies, omg, what a SIGHT when seen head-on. Scary, and I imagine VERY sore tummies, but they sure don't learn from overeating. (BTW, I am looking for PURPLE snails (enough for two more tanks), the brighter the better, anyone know where to buy some? In the US of course.) thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Sometimes they won't recognize a new food as food right away. How long > have you had it in the tank? > Here is a direct quote from applesnail.net about mystery snails (pomacea > diffusa): > /Pomaceadiffusa > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/species/pomacea_diffusa.htm>/(spike-topped > apple snail, Brazilian apple snail, golden mystery snail and ivory > snail) prefers dead and rotting plants above fresh green ones. > Occasionally they eat > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/anatomy/digestion.php>the softer > vegetation./Pomacea diffusa/snails are thus a good choice for an > aquarium equipped with a nice collection of water-plants. What is even > more: they tend to starve to dead in the middle of the vegetation if you > don't provide them with enough food.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52363	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Question about Walmarts ?

I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA near where I live and I noticed that many tropical fish were being kept for sale in tiny quart containers that you would get from a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or potato salad. This was really annoying to me. And then when I looked at the fish tanks I noticed that all of the fish were being kept in small plastic bags so that they could only swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in it. I suspect they did this to make it easier to keep the tanks clean because I can't think of any other reason to do this. It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to read what other people here think about this before I get too crazy about it. I just checked the message archives and Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this issue has never been mentioned here before. That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing something that they are not supposed to be doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? In summary I have 2 questions: Have other people noticed this same practice at your local Walmart ? What is your opinion of this practice ? Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52364	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Aquaripure Nitrate Remover

My sentiments exactly Bill but I thought I would ask just in case anyone has had a good experience with one. In my opinion anything that seems to good to be true generally is! John*<o)))< * On 23 October 2011 15:59, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > ** > > > Did you notice the price? WOW! > > Nothing is better for an aquarium than regular PWCs. > Cheaper that a water change or better for the fish? > I doubt it. > > bill in pa > > --- On Sun, 10/23/11, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquaripure Nitrate Remover > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 9:56 AM > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Just came across this & was wondering if anyone > > has any experience with > > these devices. many of the testimonials claim a reading of > > zero NO3 in their > > tank after installation but surely you need some level of > > nitrate for the > > system to be working properly? > > > > http://www.aquaripure.com/index.htm > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> > > �.���`�.�. , .���`�..><((((�> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. > > , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52365	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

You can get the purple mystery snails on aquabid.com. That's where I bought mine over a year ago, and I still see people selling them, out of 50+ I now only have 4 of them left. I'm trying to figure out if I was just starving them or perhaps I need more calcium in my water/foods, the most likely cause of their deaths is starvation though. The most readily eaten and loved food by my mystery snails was a home made food I did myself, but I've been lazy this summer (AKA over-worked) and haven't made any this summer. My snails went crazy for my gelatin food though. Try a recipe similar to this one (you don't have to have everything on the list, I've made this without the liquid vitamins, but I'm sure it's much better for your fish/snails with the vitamins in it): http://www.allnaturalpetcare.com/DIY_Homemade_Fish_Food_Recipe_Ingredients.html Make sure you add the gelatin to a very hot liquid, and do NOT add squash to this recipe, as it neutralizes the gelatin and will not solidify in the fridge like normal. Amber On 10/23/2011 10:11 AM, mothermastiff wrote: > > Amber, > > The cooked squash has been in there 36 hours, how long before I should > remove it? It looks inert and untouched. The snails are all hiding > deep in the foliage, in the dense jungle. Would they respond better to > a green veggie? How about blanched green leaf lettuce? > > There are four or possibly five blue mystery snails in the 30T (they > doubled in size in the last 6+ weeks), and it is so heavily planted, > the corys barely have a few square inches on the bottom to hang out > in. The plants come at east halfway up that 24" tall tank, and then > there are some floating frogbits too. Saw a snail hanging upside down > eating a dead leaf on a frogbit yesterday. > > What about using some bigger pieces of fish food that the voracious > angels cannot fit in their mouths? Is there any kind of FW fish food > in a size that the snails could climb on? > > I do believe my angelfish aren't pure, they seem to be at least half > piranha. Greediest little buggers I have ever seen, and if I forget > and feed an extra time a day, or more live blackworms fall off the > spoon than I intended, they will eat till they are as wide as pregnant > mollies, omg, what a SIGHT when seen head-on. Scary, and I imagine > VERY sore tummies, but they sure don't learn from overeating. > > (BTW, I am looking for PURPLE snails (enough for two more tanks), the > brighter the better, anyone know where to buy some? In the US of course.) > > thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Sometimes they won't recognize a new food as food right away. How long > > have you had it in the tank? > > Here is a direct quote from applesnail.net about mystery snails > (pomacea > > diffusa): > > /Pomaceadiffusa > > > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/species/pomacea_diffusa.htm>/(spike-topped > > > apple snail, Brazilian apple snail, golden mystery snail and ivory > > snail) prefers dead and rotting plants above fresh green ones. > > Occasionally they eat > > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/anatomy/digestion.php>the softer > > vegetation./Pomacea diffusa/snails are thus a good choice for an > > aquarium equipped with a nice collection of water-plants. What is even > > more: they tend to starve to dead in the middle of the vegetation if > you > > don't provide them with enough food. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52366	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my local WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager has taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that or they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be kept with the other tank inhabitants? Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber On 10/23/2011 9:31 AM, Bill Z wrote: > > > I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA > near where I live and I noticed that many > tropical fish were being kept for sale in > tiny quart containers that you would get from > a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or > potato salad. > > This was really annoying to me. > > And then when I looked at the fish tanks I > noticed that all of the fish were being kept > in small plastic bags so that they could only > swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. > > Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in > it. > > I suspect they did this to make it easier to > keep the tanks clean because I can't think > of any other reason to do this. > > It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures > for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to > read what other people here think about this before > I get too crazy about it. > > I just checked the message archives and > Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this > issue has never been mentioned here before. > > That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing > something that they are not supposed to be > doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? > > In summary I have 2 questions: > > Have other people noticed this same practice > at your local Walmart ? > > What is your opinion of this practice ? > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52367	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Hi Amber, Each situation can be different. They may be floating the bags for acclimation until later. If bagged properly with oxygen fish can go several days in a bag with no issues. When moving my fish room several times over the years I have floated bags for a couple days at a stretch as I knew the fish were bagged properly with oxygen and I did not have tank space as the tanks were not all set up and ready to go yet. My first presumption was that they were Bettas. Given the limited information we do not know exactly happened. -Mike G. Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber -----Original Message----- From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 11:40 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my local WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager has taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that or they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be kept with the other tank inhabitants? Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52368	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Hello Bill, This is a common practice when shipping fish. I have been to two different fish wholesalers and this is commonly how Bettas are shipped. These fish are also known as fighting fish and they do indeed fight to the point of killing each other or wounding each other so badly they die of their wounds or infection. These fish do ok in smaller containers for a while as they can breath air through a special Labyrinth organ in their head that allows them to breath directly from the air above the water. This allows them to be safely kept in these cups or containers for the duration of their stay in the store before being sold. The bags are probably what they arrived in and have just not been placed into cups for display yet. They can do well in the bags as I have seen hundred of them hung on peg boards in this manner at the wholesalers. Personally I think that when they are at home they should have a larger enclosure of a gallon or more. But the shipping of them in this manner is standard practice as is selling them in cups. Walmart like many chain stores often have untrained staff that do not know the needs of their livestock, but in this case it seems industry standard and is not cruel for the conditions described. -Mike G. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 11:16 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA near where I live and I noticed that many tropical fish were being kept for sale in tiny quart containers that you would get from a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or potato salad. This was really annoying to me. And then when I looked at the fish tanks I noticed that all of the fish were being kept in small plastic bags so that they could only swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in it. I suspect they did this to make it easier to keep the tanks clean because I can't think of any other reason to do this. It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to read what other people here think about this before I get too crazy about it. I just checked the message archives and Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this issue has never been mentioned here before. That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing something that they are not supposed to be doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? In summary I have 2 questions: Have other people noticed this same practice at your local Walmart ? What is your opinion of this practice ? Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA __

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52369	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Hi Amber, Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit into their mouths. I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find one that looks pretty close to yours http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. Hope this helps... Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled Catfish'. > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > it's not one of those monsters ;) > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my smaller > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my tanks > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > bag, just got home from the store. > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52370	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Thanks Dawn, You may just be right on that! They do look very similar. In my google searches the only other catfish that looked similar was something called "Speckled antenna catfish" which just appeared to be a different color variety of the pictus catfish, but I could be wrong. Not sure if you checked my group photo's or not, I took pics before I put him in the tank after acclimating him. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/243006836/pic/1205615487/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=61&dir=asc <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/243006836/pic/1205615487/view?picmode=large&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=61&dir=asc> He doesn't seem very nocturnal or perhaps he doesn't know he's supposed to be? ;) He's quite active during the day. Right now he's in my 125 gallon tank, but I may move him over to the Angelfish tank and remove all the platy's from there instead. My 125 gallon is mostly larger community fish, but I have some botia kubotai that I'd like to see alive for awhile longer ;) I will keep an eye on him, if anything I can always return him to the LFS later, but they will most likely not give my money back for him, perhaps they will allow a trade. Amber On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Hi Amber, > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > into their mouths. > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > one that looks pretty close to yours > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > Hope this helps... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > Catfish'. > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > smaller > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > tanks > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > Amber > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52371	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Ahh very true Mike, I didn't think about betta's for some reason. My LFS always has little cups of bettas on their shelves, with a few in their tanks for display purposes (or left overs from a prior shipment that they had to remove from their cup). Amber On 10/23/2011 10:49 AM, Deenerz@... wrote: > > Hi Amber, > > Each situation can be different. They may be floating the bags for > acclimation until later. If bagged properly with oxygen fish can go > several days in a bag with no issues. When moving my fish room several > times over the years I have floated bags for a couple days at a stretch > as I knew the fish were bagged properly with oxygen and I did not have > tank space as the tanks were not all set up and ready to go yet. > > My first presumption was that they were Bettas. > > Given the limited information we do not know exactly happened. > > -Mike G. > > Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the > oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate > the poor fish. :( > > Amber > > -----Original Message----- > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>> > Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 11:40 am > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? > > My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my > local > WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager > has > taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that > or > they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. > Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be > kept with the other tank inhabitants? > Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the > oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate > the poor fish. :( > > Amber > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52372	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Upon closer inspection of the wood catfish and the picture I took of my mystery "speckled catfish" mine has two whiskers coming out the top of it's mouth, and the wood catfish does not. Perhaps I have something different after all? Amber On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Hi Amber, > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > into their mouths. > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > one that looks pretty close to yours > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > Hope this helps... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > Catfish'. > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > smaller > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > tanks > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > Amber > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52373	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Eek, I think I found my catfish, and if it's one of these it can grow upto 19.7"!!!! OMG. <http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=>http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=52 The video of them eating from the owner's hands was pretty cool though... I think I'll be returning this one to the LFS soon from the looks of it ;) Amber On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Hi Amber, > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > into their mouths. > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > one that looks pretty close to yours > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > Hope this helps... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > Catfish'. > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > smaller > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > tanks > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > Amber > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52374	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Hello:    It could possibly be Ameiurus serracanthus, a native U. S. catfish.  A picture would help to identify it.  They get a foot or so long and weigh in at 3-4 pounds.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2011 4:47 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Speckled Catfish   Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled Catfish'. I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope it's not one of those monsters ;) They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my smaller fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my tanks so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the bag, just got home from the store. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52375	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Hello:    I sent something a while ago but haven't seen it appear so I'll send again.  I was thinking it might be the American Catfish Ameiurus serracanthus.  I looked it up last night when I saw your post and now, after looking at the picture you sent, I think I may have been right.  They are great catfish and are very hardy.     Have a Wonderful Sunday!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Speckled Catfish   Eek, I think I found my catfish, and if it's one of these it can grow upto 19.7"!!!! OMG. <http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=>http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=52 The video of them eating from the owner's hands was pretty cool though... I think I'll be returning this one to the LFS soon from the looks of it ;) Amber On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > Hi Amber, > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > into their mouths. > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > one that looks pretty close to yours > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > Hope this helps... > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > Catfish'. > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > smaller > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > tanks > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > Amber > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52376	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Yes it looks very similar to the bullhead type catfishes I've seen pictures of. It's definitely ONE of them, not sure specifically which one, but yours is a definite possibility. I just hope it's not the one that grows 19.7" ;) LOL Thanks :) Amber On 10/23/2011 11:45 AM, john Lewis wrote: > > Hello: > I sent something a while ago but haven't seen it appear so I'll > send again. I was thinking it might be the American Catfish Ameiurus > serracanthus. I looked it up last night when I saw your post and now, > after looking at the picture you sent, I think I may have been right. > They are great catfish and are very hardy. > > Have a Wonderful Sunday!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Speckled Catfish > > > Eek, I think I found my catfish, and if it's one of these it can grow > upto 19.7"!!!! OMG. > <http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=>http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=52 > > The video of them eating from the owner's hands was pretty cool though... > > I think I'll be returning this one to the LFS soon from the looks of it ;) > > Amber > > On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > > > Hi Amber, > > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > > into their mouths. > > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > > one that looks pretty close to yours > > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > > > Hope this helps... > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > > Catfish'. > > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really > hope > > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all > over > > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > > smaller > > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > > tanks > > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52377	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Hello:    It almost sounds to me like they just got a shipment of fish in and were still floating the bags to acclimate the fish to the temps of the tank water before releasing them.  Our local super WM never keeps fish in bags until they sell and the only fish in plastic containers are Bettas.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ?   My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my local WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager has taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that or they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be kept with the other tank inhabitants? Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber On 10/23/2011 9:31 AM, Bill Z wrote: > > > I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA > near where I live and I noticed that many > tropical fish were being kept for sale in > tiny quart containers that you would get from > a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or > potato salad. > > This was really annoying to me. > > And then when I looked at the fish tanks I > noticed that all of the fish were being kept > in small plastic bags so that they could only > swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. > > Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in > it. > > I suspect they did this to make it easier to > keep the tanks clean because I can't think > of any other reason to do this. > > It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures > for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to > read what other people here think about this before > I get too crazy about it. > > I just checked the message archives and > Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this > issue has never been mentioned here before. > > That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing > something that they are not supposed to be > doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? > > In summary I have 2 questions: > > Have other people noticed this same practice > at your local Walmart ? > > What is your opinion of this practice ? > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52378	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Hello:    Yeah, let's hope it is one of the smaller species.  You'll soon find out.    I had one of these guys for a couple years and it really became quite friendly.  At first it hid all the time.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Speckled Catfish   Yes it looks very similar to the bullhead type catfishes I've seen pictures of. It's definitely ONE of them, not sure specifically which one, but yours is a definite possibility. I just hope it's not the one that grows 19.7" ;) LOL Thanks :) Amber On 10/23/2011 11:45 AM, john Lewis wrote: > > Hello: > I sent something a while ago but haven't seen it appear so I'll > send again. I was thinking it might be the American Catfish Ameiurus > serracanthus. I looked it up last night when I saw your post and now, > after looking at the picture you sent, I think I may have been right. > They are great catfish and are very hardy. > > Have a Wonderful Sunday!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 3:27 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Speckled Catfish > > > Eek, I think I found my catfish, and if it's one of these it can grow > upto 19.7"!!!! OMG. > <http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=>http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=52 > > The video of them eating from the owner's hands was pretty cool though... > > I think I'll be returning this one to the LFS soon from the looks of it ;) > > Amber > > On 10/23/2011 11:01 AM, dawnshungryeyes4u2c wrote: > > > > Hi Amber, > > Your new catfish looks like a species of wood cat, which tend to get > > somewhat large (6 or more inches) and will eat whatever they can fit > > into their mouths. > > I did some brief searching for you at plantcatfish.com and did find > > one that looks pretty close to yours > > http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/_species.php?species_id=314 > > and if you look at the size info offered there it says 8.7 inches. I > > would be concerned with it eating anything under 3 - 4 inches once its > > grown. Fitting into its mouth means even if it will partially fit when > > grabbed, its considered prey. This is not a fish I would add to a > > community tank but would reserve it for a tank with larger cichlids > > such as firemouths, severums, etc. (anything that won't eat the > > catfish). These fish also tend to be primarily nocturnal hunters, so > > if you watch the tank during the day or when lights are on you would > > not likely see a problem... but next day don't be surprised to see > > fish missing. Adult platys would be a huge target for a fish such as > > this, not just platy fry. I have seen wood cats slowly, one night at a > > time, empty an entire tank of its fish until all that was left was > > stuff that wouldn't fit into its mouth during the night. > > > > Hope this helps... > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > > > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled > > Catfish'. > > > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really > hope > > > it's not one of those monsters ;) > > > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all > over > > > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > > > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my > > smaller > > > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my > > tanks > > > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > > > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > > > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > > > bag, just got home from the store. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52379	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!

cucumber I'd think...........on a saucer. ________________________________ From: mothermastiff <mother@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:11 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Snails won't come NEAR the food!   Amber, The cooked squash has been in there 36 hours, how long before I should remove it? It looks inert and untouched. The snails are all hiding deep in the foliage, in the dense jungle. Would they respond better to a green veggie? How about blanched green leaf lettuce? There are four or possibly five blue mystery snails in the 30T (they doubled in size in the last 6+ weeks), and it is so heavily planted, the corys barely have a few square inches on the bottom to hang out in. The plants come at east halfway up that 24" tall tank, and then there are some floating frogbits too. Saw a snail hanging upside down eating a dead leaf on a frogbit yesterday. What about using some bigger pieces of fish food that the voracious angels cannot fit in their mouths? Is there any kind of FW fish food in a size that the snails could climb on? I do believe my angelfish aren't pure, they seem to be at least half piranha. Greediest little buggers I have ever seen, and if I forget and feed an extra time a day, or more live blackworms fall off the spoon than I intended, they will eat till they are as wide as pregnant mollies, omg, what a SIGHT when seen head-on. Scary, and I imagine VERY sore tummies, but they sure don't learn from overeating. (BTW, I am looking for PURPLE snails (enough for two more tanks), the brighter the better, anyone know where to buy some? In the US of course.) thanks! laurie (Mother Mastiff) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Sometimes they won't recognize a new food as food right away. How long > have you had it in the tank? > Here is a direct quote from applesnail.net about mystery snails (pomacea > diffusa): > /Pomaceadiffusa > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/species/pomacea_diffusa.htm>/(spike-topped > apple snail, Brazilian apple snail, golden mystery snail and ivory > snail) prefers dead and rotting plants above fresh green ones. > Occasionally they eat > <http://www.applesnail.net/content/anatomy/digestion.php>the softer > vegetation./Pomacea diffusa/snails are thus a good choice for an > aquarium equipped with a nice collection of water-plants. What is even > more: they tend to starve to dead in the middle of the vegetation if you > don't provide them with enough food. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52380	From: harry perry	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Shrimp Eggs

Does any one have a good source for brine shrimp eggs?. Thanks Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52381	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Well, that makes sense. You know that a place like Walmart is going to get large shipments of fish all at once. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john Lewis Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? Hello: It almost sounds to me like they just got a shipment of fish in and were still floating the bags to acclimate the fish to the temps of the tank water before releasing them. Our local super WM never keeps fish in bags until they sell and the only fish in plastic containers are Bettas. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my local WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager has taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that or they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be kept with the other tank inhabitants? Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber On 10/23/2011 9:31 AM, Bill Z wrote: > > > I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA > near where I live and I noticed that many > tropical fish were being kept for sale in > tiny quart containers that you would get from > a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or > potato salad. > > This was really annoying to me. > > And then when I looked at the fish tanks I > noticed that all of the fish were being kept > in small plastic bags so that they could only > swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. > > Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in > it. > > I suspect they did this to make it easier to > keep the tanks clean because I can't think > of any other reason to do this. > > It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures > for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to > read what other people here think about this before > I get too crazy about it. > > I just checked the message archives and > Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this > issue has never been mentioned here before. > > That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing > something that they are not supposed to be > doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? > > In summary I have 2 questions: > > Have other people noticed this same practice > at your local Walmart ? > > What is your opinion of this practice ? > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52382	From: harry perry	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

________________________________ From: Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ?   Well, that makes sense. You know that a place like Walmart is going to get large shipments of fish all at once. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of john Lewis Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:52 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? Hello: It almost sounds to me like they just got a shipment of fish in and were still floating the bags to acclimate the fish to the temps of the tank water before releasing them. Our local super WM never keeps fish in bags until they sell and the only fish in plastic containers are Bettas. Have a Great Day!!! Spawn ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@... <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? My local WalMart does not have fish, but my hubby (who works at my local WalMart) says that it's most likely that one single employee/manager has taken some instructions and gone WAY overboard with them. Either that or they're super lazy and don't want to bag the fish before selling them. Is it perhaps because the fish in the bag is aggressive and can't be kept with the other tank inhabitants? Either way the bagged fish will quickly die with no flowing water, the oxygen content will quickly lower in that bag/container and suffocate the poor fish. :( Amber On 10/23/2011 9:31 AM, Bill Z wrote: > > > I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA > near where I live and I noticed that many > tropical fish were being kept for sale in > tiny quart containers that you would get from > a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or > potato salad. > > This was really annoying to me. > > And then when I looked at the fish tanks I > noticed that all of the fish were being kept > in small plastic bags so that they could only > swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. > > Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in > it. > > I suspect they did this to make it easier to > keep the tanks clean because I can't think > of any other reason to do this. > > It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures > for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to > read what other people here think about this before > I get too crazy about it. > > I just checked the message archives and > Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this > issue has never been mentioned here before. > > That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing > something that they are not supposed to be > doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? > > In summary I have 2 questions: > > Have other people noticed this same practice > at your local Walmart ? > > What is your opinion of this practice ? > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52383	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

There are tropical fish in my local Walmart, and I’ve never seen either of this. I think that Walmart does have a set of standard procedures for those fish tanks. You might write to corporate. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Z Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:31 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA near where I live and I noticed that many tropical fish were being kept for sale in tiny quart containers that you would get from a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or potato salad. This was really annoying to me. And then when I looked at the fish tanks I noticed that all of the fish were being kept in small plastic bags so that they could only swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in it. I suspect they did this to make it easier to keep the tanks clean because I can't think of any other reason to do this. It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to read what other people here think about this before I get too crazy about it. I just checked the message archives and Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this issue has never been mentioned here before. That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing something that they are not supposed to be doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? In summary I have 2 questions: Have other people noticed this same practice at your local Walmart ? What is your opinion of this practice ? Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52384	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Re: Shrimp Eggs

>Does any one have a good source for brine shrimp eggs?. > >Thanks > >Harry Brineshrimpdirect.com Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52385	From: William M	Date: 10/23/2011
Subject: Walmart and the box stores.

I hope I don't come off as sounding like a snob.. but if so.. so be it.. I will not shop for live stock in Walmart or the other two big pet stores. There are too many home-breeders that will sell you fish that they've raised, bred and brought the subsequent hatches to a viable selling size. I reconnize the value those other outlets provide in bringing people into the hobby that might not otherwise ever get interested!.. Why do I not like purchasing livestock from them? A single filtration system is the norm. All existing fish are exposed to any disease from every incoming fish. Staff: The turn-over is one, the depth of knowledge is 2nd and the "corporate" motivation is the third. They aren't really into the hobby, they are a "retail" outlet. A plus from these stores is that I can usually manage to pick up equipment cheaply from those that dabbled in the hobby, got sold a bill of goods, failed miserably and got out of the hobby. The downside is I'm mostly now into only bigger tanks.. 100G+ and up and those are hard to come by from novices but rather experienced keepers.. So not too many deals to be found. As far as knowledge in that arena?.. I was looking for supplies in a Pet-XXX and this clerk had already bagged an Oscar, a gold fish and was shopping for something "a different color".. Oh.. with a 10G tank/hood/light in the shopping cart.. It was all I could do not to speak out!.... Join a net based fish club or one in your locale.. There are plenty of people out there that will welcome you with open arm extend free INFORMED advice and possibly give ya a hand when asked. Bill in Va. www.aquaticfriendsunited@... Richmond, Va based fish club.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52386	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

When I see bags floating at my LFS I also see the employees rushing around to put the fish away. They are not just left for long periods without attention. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? There are tropical fish in my local Walmart, and I’ve never seen either of this. I think that Walmart does have a set of standard procedures for those fish tanks. You might write to corporate. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill Z Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:31 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA near where I live and I noticed that many tropical fish were being kept for sale in tiny quart containers that you would get from a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or potato salad. This was really annoying to me. And then when I looked at the fish tanks I noticed that all of the fish were being kept in small plastic bags so that they could only swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in it. I suspect they did this to make it easier to keep the tanks clean because I can't think of any other reason to do this. It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to read what other people here think about this before I get too crazy about it. I just checked the message archives and Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this issue has never been mentioned here before. That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing something that they are not supposed to be doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? In summary I have 2 questions: Have other people noticed this same practice at your local Walmart ? What is your opinion of this practice ? Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52387	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Sounds like maybe talking to the store manager was in order. Maybe a lazy employee didn’t complete the process. Anyhow, you’d have known what the story was. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Donna Ransome Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:46 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? When I see bags floating at my LFS I also see the employees rushing around to put the fish away. They are not just left for long periods without attention. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Dora Smith Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? There are tropical fish in my local Walmart, and I’ve never seen either of this. I think that Walmart does have a set of standard procedures for those fish tanks. You might write to corporate. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Bill Z Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:31 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: [AquaticLife] Question about Walmarts ? I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA near where I live and I noticed that many tropical fish were being kept for sale in tiny quart containers that you would get from a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or potato salad. This was really annoying to me. And then when I looked at the fish tanks I noticed that all of the fish were being kept in small plastic bags so that they could only swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in it. I suspect they did this to make it easier to keep the tanks clean because I can't think of any other reason to do this. It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to read what other people here think about this before I get too crazy about it. I just checked the message archives and Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this issue has never been mentioned here before. That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing something that they are not supposed to be doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? In summary I have 2 questions: Have other people noticed this same practice at your local Walmart ? What is your opinion of this practice ? Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52388	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Speckled Catfish

Just a quick note... "nocturnal feeder" doesn't mean they don't come out and swim during the day, it just means that their primary feeding habits are at night when its dark. Glad you seem to have found the exact species. I had a hard time comparing yours to other photos due to it being in a bag and the pics weren't real clear. The only thing I was really sure about was the body style and mouth shape indicated it was likely predatory and probably going to get quite large... at least large enough to eat your smaller fish. I was also sure it wasn't a pictus species. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so my LFS has some new catfish, and the only info they received > when purchasing them from the wholesaler is the name 'Speckled Catfish'. > I googled the name and only came up with channel catfish, I really hope > it's not one of those monsters ;) > They look similar to a pictus catfish, but with black speckles all over > their body, I'm really hoping this little catfish doesn't grow into a > monster catfish that eats all my fish (big or small). Most of my smaller > fish in my 125 gallon are platty's and I have plenty of them in my tanks > so I wouldn't mind any of those getting eaten ;) > Does anyone know anything about these catfish? I will try to get a > picture of it before I put it in a tank. Right now it's still in the > bag, just got home from the store. > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52389	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

Hi Bill, I have to agree with the others, the bagged fish sound like a new shipment that was being acclimated. Because WM's tend to have only 1 person running the entire pet department its not uncommon to have them mostly absent during acclimation... besides the fact that few of those employees know much if anything about fish. The bettas in the cups is standard industry procedure for multiple reasons. It is the only safe way the stores have to keep so many bettas at a time and keep them separated, while being able to display them easily, and it makes selling them easier too. As long as they are kept clean and warm and have oxygen via air holes, there is no harm in that. Most bettas don't stay in the store long enough for it to become a problem. In regards to WM's fish keeping practices overall, I hate them. I agree they shouldn't be allowed to stock live animals. Just remember that if you see something really wrong you do have the ability to complain to whoever is the manager in that department. I have done this a number of times over the years and I did actually get a good response each time along with an apology for their "lack of knowledge". The most memorable time was a WM that had not cleaned their bettas and had a shelf full of sick and dead fish floating in water that was so filthy you could barely see through it. I took one of the containers with a dead fish in it and went to the service desk, demanded to see a manager in that department. When he showed up I handed him the container and asked if he was "responsible for this?" The look on his face was pure shock. He stumbled around a bit with the "well, sometimes they die" crap, so I literally yelled at him, told him there were many like that, it was obvious they hadn't been cleaned or cared for, and that I was considering turning him into the health department and police for animal cruelty. Not only did he apologize but I watched him immediately go back there and start cleaning the ones that were still alive and tossing the ones that were dead. And yes... I stood there and watched to be sure he was actually cleaning them. Needless to say, most WM stores in this area know me and don't like me much in the pet department, but I do tend to get my way when I complain. Don't be afraid to speak up if its bad. They have an obligation to not only the customers but the state and federal laws that require some level of care for health reasons. A complaint by customers can get them huge fines and if its ongoing can shut down their pet dept indefinitely. WM can't afford that and they tend to fix the problem before it gets to that extreme. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Z" <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > > > I was just at my local Walmart in Eddystone PA > near where I live and I noticed that many > tropical fish were being kept for sale in > tiny quart containers that you would get from > a deli when you buy a quart of coleslaw or > potato salad. > > This was really annoying to me. > > And then when I looked at the fish tanks I > noticed that all of the fish were being kept > in small plastic bags so that they could only > swim in a tiny portion of the small tank. > > Every tank I checked had a plastic baggie in > it. > > I suspect they did this to make it easier to > keep the tanks clean because I can't think > of any other reason to do this. > > It annoys me when people abuse smaller creatures > for their own selfish reasons but I wanted to > read what other people here think about this before > I get too crazy about it. > > I just checked the message archives and > Walmarts is mentioned frequently but this > issue has never been mentioned here before. > > That makes me wonder if this Walmarts is doing > something that they are not supposed to be > doing or do other Walmarts also do this ? > > In summary I have 2 questions: > > Have other people noticed this same practice > at your local Walmart ? > > What is your opinion of this practice ? > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52390	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Walmart and the box stores.

Just one quick question... why didn't you speak out? Many people are grateful when someone does speak up and warn them. At worst, you would upset someone you will likely never see again anyways, but can walk away knowing that at least you tried to do the right thing. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I hope I don't come off as sounding like a snob.. but if so.. so be it.. I will not shop for live stock in Walmart or the other two big pet stores. There are too many home-breeders that will sell you fish that they've raised, bred and brought the subsequent hatches to a viable selling size. I reconnize the value those other outlets provide in bringing people into the hobby that might not otherwise ever get interested!.. > Why do I not like purchasing livestock from them? > A single filtration system is the norm. All existing fish are exposed to any disease from every incoming fish. > Staff: The turn-over is one, the depth of knowledge is 2nd and the "corporate" motivation is the third. They aren't really into the hobby, they are a "retail" outlet. > A plus from these stores is that I can usually manage to pick up equipment cheaply from those that dabbled in the hobby, got sold a bill of goods, failed miserably and got out of the hobby. > The downside is I'm mostly now into only bigger tanks.. 100G+ and up and those are hard to come by from novices but rather experienced keepers.. So not too many deals to be found. > As far as knowledge in that arena?.. I was looking for supplies in a Pet-XXX and this clerk had already bagged an Oscar, a gold fish and was shopping for something "a different color".. Oh.. with a 10G tank/hood/light in the shopping cart.. > It was all I could do not to speak out!.... > > Join a net based fish club or one in your locale.. There are plenty of people out there that will welcome you with open arm extend free INFORMED advice and possibly give ya a hand when asked. Bill in Va. > www.aquaticfriendsunited@... Richmond, Va based fish club. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52391	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Question about Walmarts ?

I wasn't by myself and my wife was already doing me a favor by going into Walmarts with me and allowing me to look for bird-feeding stuff that she has no interest in, when all she really wanted to do was go to the supermarket next door. Trying to find someone in management at Walmarts takes a lot of time and there is a limit to how much of my wifes' time I am willing to spend on my own curious/selfish interests. Plus I probably wouldn't have believed whatever Walmart employees told me anyway, since they were not going to have an unbiased opinion about what they were doing. I try and only buy stuff I can't get anywhere else at Walmarts. Since there is a small business that sells tropical fish much closer to my home that is where I would buy fish unless I noticed the price was 3 times as high or something crazy like that. But the next time I go to that Walmarts, I will check and see if the fish are still restricted to bags. Bill Zardus Folsom, PA http://groups.yahoo.com/group/WingedFriends/ 10-23-2011 I am now the moderator for this group --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Sounds like maybe talking to the store manager was in order. Maybe a lazy employee didn't complete the process. Anyhow, you'd have known what the story was. > > Dora <snip>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52392	From: Bill	Date: 10/24/2011
Subject: Re: Walmart and the box stores.

I have spoken out in the past.. Once in a Petxxxx someone had a 10G in the cart and was watching the clerk trying to snag a bala shark... I made a comment sorta like"  Great looking fish, how big do they get?".. When the clerk didn't know, I said "I think close to a foot long!"... They chose some platties instead... Another time in Walmart, picking up some airstones, a couple was shopping for a betta... I sidled up to them and re-directed them to a LFS.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:27 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Walmart and the box stores.   Just one quick question... why didn't you speak out? Many people are grateful when someone does speak up and warn them. At worst, you would upset someone you will likely never see again anyways, but can walk away knowing that at least you tried to do the right thing. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <williemcd@...> wrote: > > I hope I don't come off as sounding like a snob.. but if so.. so be it.. I will not shop for live stock in Walmart or the other two big pet stores. There are too many home-breeders that will sell you fish that they've raised, bred and brought the subsequent hatches to a viable selling size. I reconnize the value those other outlets provide in bringing people into the hobby that might not otherwise ever get interested!.. > Why do I not like purchasing livestock from them? > A single filtration system is the norm. All existing fish are exposed to any disease from every incoming fish. > Staff: The turn-over is one, the depth of knowledge is 2nd and the "corporate" motivation is the third. They aren't really into the hobby, they are a "retail" outlet. > A plus from these stores is that I can usually manage to pick up equipment cheaply from those that dabbled in the hobby, got sold a bill of goods, failed miserably and got out of the hobby. > The downside is I'm mostly now into only bigger tanks.. 100G+ and up and those are hard to come by from novices but rather experienced keepers.. So not too many deals to be found. > As far as knowledge in that arena?.. I was looking for supplies in a Pet-XXX and this clerk had already bagged an Oscar, a gold fish and was shopping for something "a different color".. Oh.. with a 10G tank/hood/light in the shopping cart.. > It was all I could do not to speak out!.... > > Join a net based fish club or one in your locale.. There are plenty of people out there that will welcome you with open arm extend free INFORMED advice and possibly give ya a hand when asked. Bill in Va. > www.aquaticfriendsunited@... Richmond, Va based fish club. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52393	From: haecklers	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??

I've always used Praziquantel as a bath but when I put a betta in with my angels and they all started looking worse I decided it would be best to treat the whole tank (I don't have a place big enough to do a dip of a large angelfish!). The angelfish's fins went from clamped to upright in an hour and they look a lot better. We'll see if that was enough to cure the betta (I think it has some sort of skin parasite that is making its skin lose its color - it's been this way for a year now, with it slowly progressing but now it's causing its fins to disintegrate in that one spot where the skin is faded). New problem: I dosed the tank yesterday afternoon and this morning the water was really cloudy. Like you can't see the other side of the tank. I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence and the Prazi was responsible. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows why it happened so I can do the right things to quickly fix this problem. My best guess is the Prazi killed off the infusoria that were eating algae, causing(allowing?) a bloom. It's a 40 gallon tank so while I'm willing to undergo a large water change, it's not something I'd take lightly due to the volume of water involved!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52394	From: Becky	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: New Member Intro

Hello All, Just joined the group and excited to be here. Thought I'd give a quick intro about myself and my tanks. I have a Double Finned Betta in a 2g tank and a 29g Nano Reef with a Maroon Clown, Coral Beauty Angel, some LPS and SPS coral and a large Anemone. In the past I've had various fresh water tanks as well. Becky

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52395	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??

I'm not very good with all the various medicines, but there are more than a few that will kill off your nitrifying bacteria and cause your tank to re-cycle like a brand new tank again. Have you tested the water for ammonia and nitrites (for starters)? I'm going to hazard a guess and say I think that your nitrifying bacteria was killed off and you're currently experiencing an ammonia cloud (tends to make the water look white/cloudy), what color of water do you have? If it's green water then that means you have excess nutrients in your water and the algae is growing in the water column to get rid of the excess nutrients, green water is not harmful (not pretty either), and will usually eventually go away on it's own with proper filter cleanings and regular water changes. Without test parameters it's hard to give a more educated guess on what could be going wrong. Amber On 10/25/2011 5:11 AM, haecklers wrote: > > I've always used Praziquantel as a bath but when I put a betta in with > my angels and they all started looking worse I decided it would be > best to treat the whole tank (I don't have a place big enough to do a > dip of a large angelfish!). The angelfish's fins went from clamped to > upright in an hour and they look a lot better. We'll see if that was > enough to cure the betta (I think it has some sort of skin parasite > that is making its skin lose its color - it's been this way for a year > now, with it slowly progressing but now it's causing its fins to > disintegrate in that one spot where the skin is faded). > > New problem: I dosed the tank yesterday afternoon and this morning the > water was really cloudy. Like you can't see the other side of the > tank. I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence and the Prazi was > responsible. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows why it happened so > I can do the right things to quickly fix this problem. My best guess > is the Prazi killed off the infusoria that were eating algae, > causing(allowing?) a bloom. > > It's a 40 gallon tank so while I'm willing to undergo a large water > change, it's not something I'd take lightly due to the volume of water > involved! > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52396	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro

Welcome to the group Becky :) We don't have very many salt-water tank keepers in the group (we could always use more). This group can (at times) be quite active and chatty about fish in general, just a fair warning ;) LOL. Amber On 10/25/2011 9:26 AM, Becky wrote: > > Hello All, > Just joined the group and excited to be here. Thought I'd give a quick > intro about myself and my tanks. I have a Double Finned Betta in a 2g > tank and a 29g Nano Reef with a Maroon Clown, Coral Beauty Angel, some > LPS and SPS coral and a large Anemone. In the past I've had various > fresh water tanks as well. > Becky > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52397	From: haecklers	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??

ammonia: 0 Nitrites: 0 Weird:100% --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I'm not very good with all the various medicines, but there are more > than a few that will kill off your nitrifying bacteria and cause your > tank to re-cycle like a brand new tank again. > Have you tested the water for ammonia and nitrites (for starters)? > I'm going to hazard a guess and say I think that your nitrifying > bacteria was killed off and you're currently experiencing an ammonia > cloud (tends to make the water look white/cloudy), what color of water > do you have? > If it's green water then that means you have excess nutrients in your > water and the algae is growing in the water column to get rid of the > excess nutrients, green water is not harmful (not pretty either), and > will usually eventually go away on it's own with proper filter cleanings > and regular water changes. > Without test parameters it's hard to give a more educated guess on what > could be going wrong. > > Amber > > On 10/25/2011 5:11 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > I've always used Praziquantel as a bath but when I put a betta in with > > my angels and they all started looking worse I decided it would be > > best to treat the whole tank (I don't have a place big enough to do a > > dip of a large angelfish!). The angelfish's fins went from clamped to > > upright in an hour and they look a lot better. We'll see if that was > > enough to cure the betta (I think it has some sort of skin parasite > > that is making its skin lose its color - it's been this way for a year > > now, with it slowly progressing but now it's causing its fins to > > disintegrate in that one spot where the skin is faded). > > > > New problem: I dosed the tank yesterday afternoon and this morning the > > water was really cloudy. Like you can't see the other side of the > > tank. I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence and the Prazi was > > responsible. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows why it happened so > > I can do the right things to quickly fix this problem. My best guess > > is the Prazi killed off the infusoria that were eating algae, > > causing(allowing?) a bloom. > > > > It's a 40 gallon tank so while I'm willing to undergo a large water > > change, it's not something I'd take lightly due to the volume of water > > involved! > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52398	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: Praziquantel caused water cloudiness??

Sounds like it's time for Ray to chime in with all his knowledge on medicines ;) I think you're right though, very weird. Amber On 10/25/2011 10:53 AM, haecklers wrote: > > ammonia: 0 > Nitrites: 0 > > Weird:100% > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > I'm not very good with all the various medicines, but there are more > > than a few that will kill off your nitrifying bacteria and cause your > > tank to re-cycle like a brand new tank again. > > Have you tested the water for ammonia and nitrites (for starters)? > > I'm going to hazard a guess and say I think that your nitrifying > > bacteria was killed off and you're currently experiencing an ammonia > > cloud (tends to make the water look white/cloudy), what color of water > > do you have? > > If it's green water then that means you have excess nutrients in your > > water and the algae is growing in the water column to get rid of the > > excess nutrients, green water is not harmful (not pretty either), and > > will usually eventually go away on it's own with proper filter > cleanings > > and regular water changes. > > Without test parameters it's hard to give a more educated guess on what > > could be going wrong. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/25/2011 5:11 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > I've always used Praziquantel as a bath but when I put a betta in > with > > > my angels and they all started looking worse I decided it would be > > > best to treat the whole tank (I don't have a place big enough to do a > > > dip of a large angelfish!). The angelfish's fins went from clamped to > > > upright in an hour and they look a lot better. We'll see if that was > > > enough to cure the betta (I think it has some sort of skin parasite > > > that is making its skin lose its color - it's been this way for a > year > > > now, with it slowly progressing but now it's causing its fins to > > > disintegrate in that one spot where the skin is faded). > > > > > > New problem: I dosed the tank yesterday afternoon and this morning > the > > > water was really cloudy. Like you can't see the other side of the > > > tank. I'm pretty sure it's no coincidence and the Prazi was > > > responsible. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows why it happened so > > > I can do the right things to quickly fix this problem. My best guess > > > is the Prazi killed off the infusoria that were eating algae, > > > causing(allowing?) a bloom. > > > > > > It's a 40 gallon tank so while I'm willing to undergo a large water > > > change, it's not something I'd take lightly due to the volume of > water > > > involved! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52399	From: john Lewis	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro

Hello:    Welcome to the group and...Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: Becky <disner01@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 1:26 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] New Member Intro   Hello All, Just joined the group and excited to be here. Thought I'd give a quick intro about myself and my tanks. I have a Double Finned Betta in a 2g tank and a 29g Nano Reef with a Maroon Clown, Coral Beauty Angel, some LPS and SPS coral and a large Anemone. In the past I've had various fresh water tanks as well. Becky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52400	From: Ray	Date: 10/25/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro

Hello Becky, Welcome to the Group; hope you have a long and pleasant stay. As Amber has already pointed out to you, there aren't that many here who have marine fish but, the more, the better. Noticed you do have a 2 gallon freshwater tank, but as for your Nano Reef it looks like you're "worth your salt" < g >. BTW, does anyone here remember that old idiom/anachronism? Feel free to browse the archives for posts dealing with salt water fishes (there are some). You may find them of interest. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Becky" <disner01@...> wrote: > > Hello All, > Just joined the group and excited to be here. Thought I'd give a quick intro about myself and my tanks. I have a Double Finned Betta in a 2g tank and a 29g Nano Reef with a Maroon Clown, Coral Beauty Angel, some LPS and SPS coral and a large Anemone. In the past I've had various fresh water tanks as well. > Becky >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52401	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Re: New Member Intro

Hi Becky, welcome to the group. I have been keeping saltwater tanks for years, currently have 2 set up but the smaller is on its way out due to space issues. I am wondering how long you've had the saltwater tank set up? I would have to assume from your stocking list that the fish and anemone are still quite small? I wanted to let you know that you are going to need a much larger tank for those fish and the anemone. What kind of anemone is it? Most anemones get really big (if they're healthy) and when mixed into a tank with corals should be expected to sting and kill corals that are placed near it. Smaller anemone species such as the condylactus have the ability to move around the tank on their own until they find a spot they like, and others such as tube anemones grow long tentacles that also will sting corals (as well as small fish). If corals are in a location the anemones choose for themselves, they will sting the corals and kill them to take over that location. Just like fish, not all inverts are compatible. Maroon clowns are one of the largest of the clown species. Even a healthy male (which is smaller than a female) can grow to 4 - 5 inches when mature. An adult coral beauty can range from 5 - 6 inches when mature, thus there isn't enough space in a 29 gallon tank for that to work out well long term. Saltwater is much different than freshwater. I would be more than happy to help you sort things out before there's a problem but I would need to know what species of anemone you're keeping along with what species of corals are there, too. (and anything else in the tank) The amount of live rock, type of filter set up, etc. also makes a difference. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Becky" <disner01@...> wrote: > > Hello All, > Just joined the group and excited to be here. Thought I'd give a quick intro about myself and my tanks. I have a Double Finned Betta in a 2g tank and a 29g Nano Reef with a Maroon Clown, Coral Beauty Angel, some LPS and SPS coral and a large Anemone. In the past I've had various fresh water tanks as well. > Becky >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52402	From: Al Keep	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: re. greyhabit [max]

hey dude welcome to the group. my suggestion for the youngsters room would be a small nocturnal tank. i set one up in my wife and i's bedroom a couple months ago on a sturdy night table beside the bed. i went with a 10 gallon glass long tank with a small school of bandit corries..... as they are some of the smaller ones. it has l.e.d. lights and you can switch the lights from daylight to off to dim blue light. after i finish reading i feed them and put thier light to blue moonlight and they start wiggling around. the combination of the dim shimmering light, watching the fish, and the waterfall sound of the filter; i'm out like a light fast. i'd go with the glass for a kids room [less scratches]. let us know what ya get and how its going. Al.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52403	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Filter Media Bags

Hello All. My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in this configuration or similar? Alex LCpl, USMC (Inactive) Semper Fi

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52404	From: Nancy Lee	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: please everyone trim your emails

Just use a line or two......The email is sooooo long if not snipped. Please try to remember to do this. Nancy/Pa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52405	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/26/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

Hi Alex, Manufacturers-especially those of smaller filters seem to have an unwritten rule that you must use carbon as a media!! Generally, unless you are treating the water for anything specific like removing medications or other toxins the carbon has very little benefits & you would be far better to use the space for some inert media such as bio balls/pot scrubbers/ceramic hoops/white polyester foam etc. All of these will get colonized by good bugs that will help to keep the tank's eco system running smoothly. I don't know the exact configuration of your HOB model but any of the above filter media would be an improvement on using carbon, is it possible to simply put squares of polyester foam cut to the same size as the carbon bags into the space? Will likely be a lot cheaper than using the ready-made ones. What type[s] of Goldfish does your son have in his tank? 16 gallons sounds a little small unless you have baby fish & then you would need to think about upgrading as the fish grow. Goldfish kick out a lot of waste so you need lots of water & big filtration for longevity. John*<o)))< * On 26 October 2011 15:13, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hello All. > > My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am > getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not > for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I > clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. > > I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in > some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in > this configuration or similar? > > Alex > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > Semper Fi > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52406	From: haecklers	Date: 10/27/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

I've been running a 55 gallon with a HOB filter for over a year now. I removed the filter filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert Sponge. Two actually. I ran it overstocked with never a problem - nitrites, ammonia zeroes. And I had tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as messy as goldfish! All you need really is the mechanical filtration action of the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria to live on. Basically it's like turning your HOB filter into a huge external sponge filter. With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one with my weekly water change into some of the removed tank water (great for watering houseplants - watch them turn deep green and lush!) and replace them with the squeezed one going on top, so every week one of the two gets squeezed out. After about a year the sponges start to fall apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big ones cost $2.50. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > > Hello All. > > My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am > getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not > for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I > clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. > > I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in > some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in > this configuration or similar? > > Alex > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > Semper Fi >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52407	From: bill 1433	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

Hi haecklers! One thing I noticed about those foams is the hole size or porosity of them. When they are new, the porosity seems greater or larger. As the sponge age they get smaller, so the holes appear smaller. A good time to tell when you need a change is to just compare a new one to an old one, as the old shrinks it does not fully cover the area in the filter box or fit tight against the sides. As a result,some water will actually by pass it. bill in pa --- On Thu, 10/27/11, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Filter Media Bags > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, October 27, 2011, 9:40 PM > I've been running a 55 gallon with a > HOB filter for over a year now.  I removed the filter > filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert > Sponge.  Two actually.  I ran it overstocked with > never a problem - nitrites, ammonia zeroes.  And I had > tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as messy as goldfish!  > All you need really is the mechanical filtration action of > the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria > to live on.  Basically it's like turning your HOB > filter into a huge external sponge filter.  > > With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one > with my weekly water change into some of the removed tank > water (great for watering houseplants - watch them turn deep > green and lush!) and replace them with the squeezed one > going on top, so every week one of the two gets squeezed > out.  After about a year the sponges start to fall > apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big > ones cost $2.50. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > > > > Hello All. > > > > My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small > HOB filter. I am > > getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter > it has. Were it not > > for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing > them but each time I > > clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the > filters. > > > > I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media > bags and putting in > > some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else > used these bags in > > this configuration or similar? > > > > Alex > > LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > > Semper Fi > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52408	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Need some help (water quality testing)

Hello, I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use to fix the various things tested. I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH decreaser. Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on housing Elle indoors for the winter) Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52409	From: Dora Smith	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

Desiree, you have to cycle a tank before you can put much in it in the way of fish, or the bacteria aren't present to process the waste. I don't know how large the tank has to be for one koi, and it could make a difference how big is the koi. Those are big fish. You can get products with starter bacteria that help a little. If the fish wasn't indoors yet, is there any chance you live in Austin, Texas? Some starter filter media from someone's mature aquarium would help. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Desire' A. Heatherly Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Need some help (water quality testing) Hello, I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use to fix the various things tested. I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH decreaser. Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on housing Elle indoors for the winter) Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52410	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 10/28/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

Hi Dora, Time kind of ran out on me. I was trying to get the funds to purchase Elle's huge aquarium (60 gallons) before the cooler weather got here and it'd be time to move her indoors for winter, BUT we had an unexpected cool front quite early, so I had to get her inside as not to shock her system with the different water temps (outside being cooler and then inside being room temp). Elle is about 8 inches and I've only had her a few months. I only plan to keep her inside over the winter months as her current pond is not deep enough to safely winter her in. I plan to get a larger pond dug by the Spring for her to move back outside. This is only a temporary situation. I have heard that you DO have to cycle the tank first but I didn't have much advance notice for the cooler weather coming and I had to get her inside. No, I live in Southeast Louisiana. Thanks! Desire' ----- Original Message ----- From: Dora Smith To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:23 PM Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Need some help (water quality testing) Desiree, you have to cycle a tank before you can put much in it in the way of fish, or the bacteria aren't present to process the waste. I don't know how large the tank has to be for one koi, and it could make a difference how big is the koi. Those are big fish. You can get products with starter bacteria that help a little. If the fish wasn't indoors yet, is there any chance you live in Austin, Texas? Some starter filter media from someone's mature aquarium would help. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Desire' A. Heatherly Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 8:42 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Need some help (water quality testing) Hello, I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use to fix the various things tested. I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH decreaser. Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on housing Elle indoors for the winter) Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52411	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

Hi Desire', Since, by your own admission, you are still a beginner with fish, you should have asked on the Group here about bringing Elle inside even before you did so. Whenever bringing fish indoors from a pond, you should ALWAYS -- whenever possible -- also bring the fish's pond water inside too, to fill the tank, even if it appears a bit funky. As long as the pond water's parameters are within proper ranges to promote a healthy environment for the fish, the pond water should always be used to fill the fish's indoor holding tank. This will elimiate any possible stress due to possible different water parameters that can occur when using tap water to fill the holding tank. The pond water in the tank can then be changes out gradually if it looks grungy, which will be ever so much more stress free for the fish. Since this is now after the fact, we'll see if we can correct this present state of affairs. To start with, and I know you want to be very serious in dealing with Elle's well being, don't ever rely on the results of test strips, which are notoriously erroneous at least as often as they're close to being correct. If you want accurate test results, you should always rely on liquid test kits rather than test strips. Depending on how strips are stored, and even though they may still be within their expiration dates (are they?), they very often give innaccurate results. I'd recommend getting a master kit manufactured by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. One thing I notice in your message is that you state your tank water's "Nitrate was at a safe level," but you go on to state that this same parameter (Nitrate) "was close to the danger level." You're obviously confusing Nitrate with Nitrite in all of this, but it's impossible for us to know which is safe and which is dangerous by your statement as we don't know which is your Nitrite. One extremely important thing too, whenever giving test results to the List, please give them only as specific numbers rather than "safe," "okay," "close," "dangerous," "high," "low" or any other subjective description so that we may know exactly what they are. As soon as possible, I'd advise getting this liquid multi-test kit and give us the test results in numbers; you'll always need a good multi-test kit. For now, as we have nothing else to work with, we'll have to go by what is being offered, and assume -- as both expected and as appears -- that your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have elevated. Nitrate doesn't get dangerous until it reaches well over 200 ppm, but does start to get harmful after reaching 40 ppm. Still, this parameter is the least important to have to be concerned about when realizing that your much more dangerous ammonia and nitrite are getting high. These last two parameters (ammonia and nitrite) are individually each more dangerous towards the opposite ends of the pH scale, with ammonia being more harmful the higher the pH becomes and the nitrite becoming more dangerous as the pH decreases. Still, neither one is reason to abruptly change the pH as this will only lead to more stress. So, don't use the Tetra Correct pH (as you don't even know if your pH is "incorrect"), and don't use the Tetra pH decreaser (as you don't know that the pH should be decreased) -- at least not until we know what the tank's pH actually is, in numbers. What IS correct, as for the pH, is what the pH reads in your pond's water. Your tank water should closely match (or be somewhat similar to) the water that your fish came out of -- but since Elle has by now adapted to your tank water's pH, there's no need to change it unless it's really excessively high, like near 9.0. Koi do fine at a high pH, even around 8.0. Any pH changes should be done gradually though, if at all, and it's always preferable that it not be changed; it's seldom advantageous to "fix" the pH, except when absolutely necessary. It would help us better if you could give us a pH reading in numbers rather than just "high," as that doesn't say very much in comparison to her needs. Again though, a result from a liquid pH test kit would be much more dependable for accuracy as this is particularly one type of test strip which can be highly inaccurate. As Elle has been in this tank water now for a week, she has adjusted to the tank's pH by now (and has taken any pH stress from this), even if it was far different from her pond's pH. As concerned with your organic waste levels -- ammonia and nitrite -- your hardness level is immaterial. I have to assume that you filled the pond from your tap at the beginning of the season, and as such, while the tap water hardness won't be identical now, it would be expected to be close. You do mention your tank water has a high pH (what is it?). As ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH becomes, a slightly lower pH might be preferred, but removing the ammonia not only would be more beneficial but would also be less stressful than changing the pH (although a minor change in pH of 0.2 or less would be inconsequential as far as being stressful for the fish). Yes, you're correct, start with making partial water changes (PWC's). This is one of the best ways of removing excess ammonia and nitrite. Do NOT turn your filter off, as it needs to continue to cycle (to build up a population of nitrifying bacteria). Do not vacuum the gravel, unless it needs it from having excess food and waste lying on it -- and then -- vacuum only half or less of it at any one time (at any one week), retaining the most beneficial bacteria on the other half of the gravel at any one time. Noticed you have Stress-Zyme, although I'm not sure if this is the Tetra brand water conditioner tablets that are available. In any case, you'll of course need a water conditioner to remove the chloramines from the tap water when you add it. For keeping the ammonia in a non-toxic state however, you need to get a liquid water conditioner like Prime, which will convert any residual ammonia (from both tap water and from fish waste) into relatively harmless ammonium (while still having it available as food to feed your nitrifying bacteria culture in your filter). Do not use the ammonia remover. Not only is it not needed, but you'll starve out any nitrifying bacteria that are starting to get established. You may use the aquarium salt though, but without yet knowing the test results in numbers, from a dependable liquid test kit, it's impossible to know if Elle was subjected to any toxic levels. When you get the results, also give us the temperature as the toxicity of the ammonia also partially depends on this. For starters, add 1 teaspoon per gallon of aquarium salt. As you'll be doing more PWC's you'll be needing more salt to make up for that which is being lost from its removal with the PWC's. Salt is beneficial (essential) in reversing the effects of ammonia poisoning, but we won't know yet if Elle has experienced ammonia poisoning. If we reach that conclusion by the test results, you'll need to increase the salt amount (slowly, over the course of 24 hours) to 3 teaspoons per gallon, and keep it there for about two weeks -- or until she starts eating again. As you may need to buy more salt, go to the supermarket and buy a 3 lb. box of Diamond Crystal salt (which has no additives) as it's the same thing as "aquarium salt" which you pay much more for. One last thing, for now, give us the test results of your tap water, with liquid test kits, in numbers. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hello, > > I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. > > Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. > > One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use to fix the various things tested. > > I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH decreaser. > > Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? > > I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. > > Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on housing Elle indoors for the winter) > > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52412	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

Hi Desire', I hope I'm not out of line with Ray here but I think there may have been a slight misunderstanding regarding your turning the filter off. It seems that you meant while doing maintenance & Ray took it as turning it off for long periods. The filter is the life-support system for any aquatic system with living creatures so should be running 24/7 generally but it is fine & indeed necessary to switch it off for an hour or so when you are doing any tank maintenance that involves lowering the water level because you don't want the filter running 'dry' & also you need to turn it off to open it & clean the sponges or other media which are inside. You want to gently rinse the filter media in a bucket of old tank water & you are looking to remove just the lose debris. Remember to keep the filter media wet at all times to preserve the growing colony of good bugs that live in it. What make & model of filter do you have? There are many good liquid test kits, most manufacturers make a set with multiple tests which is a lot cheaper then buying them all individually. As an example API make the Master Test Kit which has tests for High Range pH, Ammonia, Nitr*I*te [NO2] & Nitr*A*te [NO3]. John*<o)))< * On 29 October 2011 08:51, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hi Desire', > > Since, by your own admission, you are still a beginner with fish, you > should have asked on the Group here about bringing Elle inside even before > you did so. Whenever bringing fish indoors from a pond, you should ALWAYS -- > whenever possible -- also bring the fish's pond water inside too, to fill > the tank, even if it appears a bit funky. As long as the pond water's > parameters are within proper ranges to promote a healthy environment for the > fish, the pond water should always be used to fill the fish's indoor holding > tank. This will elimiate any possible stress due to possible different water > parameters that can occur when using tap water to fill the holding tank. The > pond water in the tank can then be changes out gradually if it looks grungy, > which will be ever so much more stress free for the fish. > > Since this is now after the fact, we'll see if we can correct this present > state of affairs. To start with, and I know you want to be very serious in > dealing with Elle's well being, don't ever rely on the results of test > strips, which are notoriously erroneous at least as often as they're close > to being correct. If you want accurate test results, you should always rely > on liquid test kits rather than test strips. Depending on how strips are > stored, and even though they may still be within their expiration dates (are > they?), they very often give innaccurate results. I'd recommend getting a > master kit manufactured by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. > > One thing I notice in your message is that you state your tank water's > "Nitrate was at a safe level," but you go on to state that this same > parameter (Nitrate) "was close to the danger level." You're obviously > confusing Nitrate with Nitrite in all of this, but it's impossible for us to > know which is safe and which is dangerous by your statement as we don't know > which is your Nitrite. One extremely important thing too, whenever giving > test results to the List, please give them only as specific numbers rather > than "safe," "okay," "close," "dangerous," "high," "low" or any other > subjective description so that we may know exactly what they are. > > As soon as possible, I'd advise getting this liquid multi-test kit and give > us the test results in numbers; you'll always need a good multi-test kit. > For now, as we have nothing else to work with, we'll have to go by what is > being offered, and assume -- as both expected and as appears -- that your > ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have elevated. Nitrate doesn't get dangerous > until it reaches well over 200 ppm, but does start to get harmful after > reaching 40 ppm. Still, this parameter is the least important to have to be > concerned about when realizing that your much more dangerous ammonia and > nitrite are getting high. > > These last two parameters (ammonia and nitrite) are individually each more > dangerous towards the opposite ends of the pH scale, with ammonia being more > harmful the higher the pH becomes and the nitrite becoming more dangerous as > the pH decreases. Still, neither one is reason to abruptly change the pH as > this will only lead to more stress. So, don't use the Tetra Correct pH (as > you don't even know if your pH is "incorrect"), and don't use the Tetra pH > decreaser (as you don't know that the pH should be decreased) -- at least > not until we know what the tank's pH actually is, in numbers. What IS > correct, as for the pH, is what the pH reads in your pond's water. Your tank > water should closely match (or be somewhat similar to) the water that your > fish came out of -- but since Elle has by now adapted to your tank water's > pH, there's no need to change it unless it's really excessively high, like > near 9.0. Koi do fine at a high pH, even around 8.0. > > Any pH changes should be done gradually though, if at all, and it's always > preferable that it not be changed; it's seldom advantageous to "fix" the pH, > except when absolutely necessary. It would help us better if you could give > us a pH reading in numbers rather than just "high," as that doesn't say very > much in comparison to her needs. Again though, a result from a liquid pH > test kit would be much more dependable for accuracy as this is particularly > one type of test strip which can be highly inaccurate. > > As Elle has been in this tank water now for a week, she has adjusted to the > tank's pH by now (and has taken any pH stress from this), even if it was far > different from her pond's pH. As concerned with your organic waste levels -- > ammonia and nitrite -- your hardness level is immaterial. I have to assume > that you filled the pond from your tap at the beginning of the season, and > as such, while the tap water hardness won't be identical now, it would be > expected to be close. You do mention your tank water has a high pH (what is > it?). As ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH becomes, a slightly lower > pH might be preferred, but removing the ammonia not only would be more > beneficial but would also be less stressful than changing the pH (although a > minor change in pH of 0.2 or less would be inconsequential as far as being > stressful for the fish). > > Yes, you're correct, start with making partial water changes (PWC's). This > is one of the best ways of removing excess ammonia and nitrite. Do NOT turn > your filter off, as it needs to continue to cycle (to build up a population > of nitrifying bacteria). Do not vacuum the gravel, unless it needs it from > having excess food and waste lying on it -- and then -- vacuum only half or > less of it at any one time (at any one week), retaining the most beneficial > bacteria on the other half of the gravel at any one time. > > Noticed you have Stress-Zyme, although I'm not sure if this is the Tetra > brand water conditioner tablets that are available. In any case, you'll of > course need a water conditioner to remove the chloramines from the tap water > when you add it. For keeping the ammonia in a non-toxic state however, you > need to get a liquid water conditioner like Prime, which will convert any > residual ammonia (from both tap water and from fish waste) into relatively > harmless ammonium (while still having it available as food to feed your > nitrifying bacteria culture in your filter). Do not use the ammonia remover. > Not only is it not needed, but you'll starve out any nitrifying bacteria > that are starting to get established. > > You may use the aquarium salt though, but without yet knowing the test > results in numbers, from a dependable liquid test kit, it's impossible to > know if Elle was subjected to any toxic levels. When you get the results, > also give us the temperature as the toxicity of the ammonia also partially > depends on this. For starters, add 1 teaspoon per gallon of aquarium salt. > As you'll be doing more PWC's you'll be needing more salt to make up for > that which is being lost from its removal with the PWC's. Salt is beneficial > (essential) in reversing the effects of ammonia poisoning, but we won't know > yet if Elle has experienced ammonia poisoning. If we reach that conclusion > by the test results, you'll need to increase the salt amount (slowly, over > the course of 24 hours) to 3 teaspoons per gallon, and keep it there for > about two weeks -- or until she starts eating again. As you may need to buy > more salt, go to the supermarket and buy a 3 lb. box of Diamond Crystal salt > (which has no additives) as it's the same thing as "aquarium salt" which you > pay much more for. > > One last thing, for now, give us the test results of your tap water, with > liquid test kits, in numbers. > > Ray > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week > I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. > > > > Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart > store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a > safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very > hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is > present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner > with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. > > > > One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart > today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use > to fix the various things tested. > > > > I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate > and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH > decreaser. > > > > Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to > make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you > change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would > I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do > it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was > reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these > things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are > doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? > > > > I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess > up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love > suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind > that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. > I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested > water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those > things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to > make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. > > > > Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on > housing Elle indoors for the winter) > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52413	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

John Quite alright, on clarifying what Desire' hopefully meant about turning off the filter. It appeared to me that she intended to keep the filter off while doing all those small steps she talks about in correcting the ammonia and nitrite issues, which could take a while when needing to do numerous PWC's in small amounts. Maybe I read it wrong. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Desire', > > I hope I'm not out of line with Ray here but I think there may have been a > slight misunderstanding regarding your turning the filter off. It seems that > you meant while doing maintenance & Ray took it as turning it off for long > periods. > > The filter is the life-support system for any aquatic system with living > creatures so should be running 24/7 generally but it is fine & indeed > necessary to switch it off for an hour or so when you are doing any tank > maintenance that involves lowering the water level because you don't want > the filter running 'dry' & also you need to turn it off to open it & clean > the sponges or other media which are inside. You want to gently rinse the > filter media in a bucket of old tank water & you are looking to remove just > the lose debris. Remember to keep the filter media wet at all times to > preserve the growing colony of good bugs that live in it. What make & model > of filter do you have? There are many good liquid test kits, most > manufacturers make a set with multiple tests which is a lot cheaper then > buying them all individually. As an example API make the Master Test Kit > which has tests for High Range pH, Ammonia, Nitr*I*te [NO2] & Nitr*A*te > [NO3]. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 29 October 2011 08:51, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Hi Desire', > > > > Since, by your own admission, you are still a beginner with fish, you > > should have asked on the Group here about bringing Elle inside even before > > you did so. Whenever bringing fish indoors from a pond, you should ALWAYS -- > > whenever possible -- also bring the fish's pond water inside too, to fill > > the tank, even if it appears a bit funky. As long as the pond water's > > parameters are within proper ranges to promote a healthy environment for the > > fish, the pond water should always be used to fill the fish's indoor holding > > tank. This will elimiate any possible stress due to possible different water > > parameters that can occur when using tap water to fill the holding tank. The > > pond water in the tank can then be changes out gradually if it looks grungy, > > which will be ever so much more stress free for the fish. > > > > Since this is now after the fact, we'll see if we can correct this present > > state of affairs. To start with, and I know you want to be very serious in > > dealing with Elle's well being, don't ever rely on the results of test > > strips, which are notoriously erroneous at least as often as they're close > > to being correct. If you want accurate test results, you should always rely > > on liquid test kits rather than test strips. Depending on how strips are > > stored, and even though they may still be within their expiration dates (are > > they?), they very often give innaccurate results. I'd recommend getting a > > master kit manufactured by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. > > > > One thing I notice in your message is that you state your tank water's > > "Nitrate was at a safe level," but you go on to state that this same > > parameter (Nitrate) "was close to the danger level." You're obviously > > confusing Nitrate with Nitrite in all of this, but it's impossible for us to > > know which is safe and which is dangerous by your statement as we don't know > > which is your Nitrite. One extremely important thing too, whenever giving > > test results to the List, please give them only as specific numbers rather > > than "safe," "okay," "close," "dangerous," "high," "low" or any other > > subjective description so that we may know exactly what they are. > > > > As soon as possible, I'd advise getting this liquid multi-test kit and give > > us the test results in numbers; you'll always need a good multi-test kit. > > For now, as we have nothing else to work with, we'll have to go by what is > > being offered, and assume -- as both expected and as appears -- that your > > ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have elevated. Nitrate doesn't get dangerous > > until it reaches well over 200 ppm, but does start to get harmful after > > reaching 40 ppm. Still, this parameter is the least important to have to be > > concerned about when realizing that your much more dangerous ammonia and > > nitrite are getting high. > > > > These last two parameters (ammonia and nitrite) are individually each more > > dangerous towards the opposite ends of the pH scale, with ammonia being more > > harmful the higher the pH becomes and the nitrite becoming more dangerous as > > the pH decreases. Still, neither one is reason to abruptly change the pH as > > this will only lead to more stress. So, don't use the Tetra Correct pH (as > > you don't even know if your pH is "incorrect"), and don't use the Tetra pH > > decreaser (as you don't know that the pH should be decreased) -- at least > > not until we know what the tank's pH actually is, in numbers. What IS > > correct, as for the pH, is what the pH reads in your pond's water. Your tank > > water should closely match (or be somewhat similar to) the water that your > > fish came out of -- but since Elle has by now adapted to your tank water's > > pH, there's no need to change it unless it's really excessively high, like > > near 9.0. Koi do fine at a high pH, even around 8.0. > > > > Any pH changes should be done gradually though, if at all, and it's always > > preferable that it not be changed; it's seldom advantageous to "fix" the pH, > > except when absolutely necessary. It would help us better if you could give > > us a pH reading in numbers rather than just "high," as that doesn't say very > > much in comparison to her needs. Again though, a result from a liquid pH > > test kit would be much more dependable for accuracy as this is particularly > > one type of test strip which can be highly inaccurate. > > > > As Elle has been in this tank water now for a week, she has adjusted to the > > tank's pH by now (and has taken any pH stress from this), even if it was far > > different from her pond's pH. As concerned with your organic waste levels -- > > ammonia and nitrite -- your hardness level is immaterial. I have to assume > > that you filled the pond from your tap at the beginning of the season, and > > as such, while the tap water hardness won't be identical now, it would be > > expected to be close. You do mention your tank water has a high pH (what is > > it?). As ammonia is more toxic the higher the pH becomes, a slightly lower > > pH might be preferred, but removing the ammonia not only would be more > > beneficial but would also be less stressful than changing the pH (although a > > minor change in pH of 0.2 or less would be inconsequential as far as being > > stressful for the fish). > > > > Yes, you're correct, start with making partial water changes (PWC's). This > > is one of the best ways of removing excess ammonia and nitrite. Do NOT turn > > your filter off, as it needs to continue to cycle (to build up a population > > of nitrifying bacteria). Do not vacuum the gravel, unless it needs it from > > having excess food and waste lying on it -- and then -- vacuum only half or > > less of it at any one time (at any one week), retaining the most beneficial > > bacteria on the other half of the gravel at any one time. > > > > Noticed you have Stress-Zyme, although I'm not sure if this is the Tetra > > brand water conditioner tablets that are available. In any case, you'll of > > course need a water conditioner to remove the chloramines from the tap water > > when you add it. For keeping the ammonia in a non-toxic state however, you > > need to get a liquid water conditioner like Prime, which will convert any > > residual ammonia (from both tap water and from fish waste) into relatively > > harmless ammonium (while still having it available as food to feed your > > nitrifying bacteria culture in your filter). Do not use the ammonia remover. > > Not only is it not needed, but you'll starve out any nitrifying bacteria > > that are starting to get established. > > > > You may use the aquarium salt though, but without yet knowing the test > > results in numbers, from a dependable liquid test kit, it's impossible to > > know if Elle was subjected to any toxic levels. When you get the results, > > also give us the temperature as the toxicity of the ammonia also partially > > depends on this. For starters, add 1 teaspoon per gallon of aquarium salt. > > As you'll be doing more PWC's you'll be needing more salt to make up for > > that which is being lost from its removal with the PWC's. Salt is beneficial > > (essential) in reversing the effects of ammonia poisoning, but we won't know > > yet if Elle has experienced ammonia poisoning. If we reach that conclusion > > by the test results, you'll need to increase the salt amount (slowly, over > > the course of 24 hours) to 3 teaspoons per gallon, and keep it there for > > about two weeks -- or until she starts eating again. As you may need to buy > > more salt, go to the supermarket and buy a 3 lb. box of Diamond Crystal salt > > (which has no additives) as it's the same thing as "aquarium salt" which you > > pay much more for. > > > > One last thing, for now, give us the test results of your tap water, with > > liquid test kits, in numbers. > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > I wrote awhile back about wintering my koi fish indoors. Well, last week > > I brought her inside to her new 60 gallon aquarium. > > > > > > Fast forward to this week...I was FINALLY able to make it to the Petsmart > > store (the closest is an hour away) to get test strips. Nitrate was at a > > safe level as was the alkalinity, BUT the pH was high; hardness was very > > hard; and the nitrate was close to the 'danger' level. And ammonia is > > present. Very bad combination- even I know that, and I'm still a beginner > > with fish. And she is not eating, so I suspected ammonia. > > > > > > One of the members of this household was going in the area of Petsmart > > today so I had a few products picked up that the test strip box said to use > > to fix the various things tested. > > > > > > I have Start Zyme (?), aquarium salt and ammonia remover (for the nitrate > > and ammonia issue), and for the pH I bought Tetra correct pH and pH > > decreaser. > > > > > > Now where do I even start??? I have never did this before and want to > > make sure I do it correctly as to not harm Elle (my koi). I know if you > > change water quality too quickly, it can do more harm than good. Where would > > I start? I know a water change is in order of course. I know you have to do > > it in small steps, but I'm overwhelmed on where to even start. And I was > > reading some places where it says to turn off the filter while doing these > > things? It also recommends vacumming the gravel too, but not if you are > > doing the recommendations for change in water quality like the pH? > > > > > > I thought I'd ask here first before I did anything. I don't want to mess > > up this correction process! I plan to start in the morning, but would love > > suggestions on where I should begin with this process. Again, keep in mind > > that I'm VERY new to fish aquariums- well, taking care of them PROPERLY. > > I've had fish several times before in a little 10 gallon, but I never tested > > water quality and such (and I didn't realize how necessary doing all those > > things are- I was naive about fish keeping to say the least!), but I want to > > make sure I do things CORRECTLY from here on out. > > > > > > Thanks for any help you can give! (and for the help already given on > > housing Elle indoors for the winter) > > > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52414	From: A Mejia	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

Haecklers. I really liked this idea. Unfortunatelly the channel where the filter cartridge goes would not be very conducive to this method. That led me to check out forster and found they sell the actual filter for the foam inserts you are suggesting. Is that the same filter you are using? Spending $25 for a new filter would likelt give me a great return on the investment. The filter is a Hagen aquaclear power filter item id is cd120114. Is that correct? Are you currently using one of this? Thanks for your suggestion. Alex Semper Fi haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: >I've been running a 55 gallon with a HOB filter for over a year now. I removed the filter filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert Sponge. Two actually. I ran it overstocked with never a problem - nitrites, ammonia zeroes. And I had tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as messy as goldfish! All you need really is the mechanical filtration action of the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria to live on. Basically it's like turning your HOB filter into a huge external sponge filter. > >With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one with my weekly water change into some of the removed tank water (great for watering houseplants - watch them turn deep green and lush!) and replace them with the squeezed one going on top, so every week one of the two gets squeezed out. After about a year the sponges start to fall apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big ones cost $2.50. > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: >> >> Hello All. >> >> My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am >> getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not >> for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I >> clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. >> >> I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in >> some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in >> this configuration or similar? >> >> Alex >> LCpl, USMC (Inactive) >> Semper Fi >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52415	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Need some help (water quality testing)

I also agree with Ray, throw out the Stress-Zyme (it's useless and can actually harm your fish instead of helping). Did you have any sort of filter on the pond? It would have had a sponge or something inside of it that you can remove and put inside your filter on your new 60 gallon tank, this will have the nitrifying bacteria growing on it and will help build your nitrifying bacteria culture in your new filter indoors. Without transfering anything from your old pond filter you are currently cycling your 60 gallon tank with your poor Koi, which is stressful on ALL fish and can cause deaths on less hardy fish (and cause long term health problems on the survivors). Do you know what the pH was in the pond? Don't use any chemical pH changers (up or down), they will only temporarily change your pH and instead cause undue stress on your fish as well as the pH shifts up and down. The safest and natural way to slowly lower your pH is by using peat moss (or you can use it to create peat tea and add the tea water to your tank instead of putting the moss in your filter). But if you don't know the pond pH don't start changing anything yet. As Ray also stated she has already adapted to this new pH level, and changing it now will just cause her more stress, so if you make any changes to her pH make sure to do it VERY gradually (no more than .2 change per day at the most). Get yourself a good API master test kit with the liquids and vials, you can get them from walmart.com and have them sent to your local store for pickup (free shipping), they cost around 17 dollars usually and will last a long time, just remember to shake the reagents before every use. Right now your friend is regular water changes to get rid of the ammonia and nitrates. And see if you can get the sponge or some sort of filter media pulled out of your old pond filter and insert it somewhere in your new filter. If it won't fit at least take the sponge and rub it against your new filter really good on all sides, this will transfer some of the nitrifying bacteria. Hopefully your pond still has some living in the filter, as this will be the quickest way to get your cycle on the right track faster than just "waiting it out". If you've already pulled the filter and put it in storage or something and it's not currently in the pond anymore then your next plan might want to include buying some "Dr Tim's One and Only" product, this has a live culture of nitrifying bacteria inside and will instantly cycling your tank for Elle and fix your cycling issues very quickly. Amber On 10/28/2011 11:51 PM, Ray wrote: > > Hi Desire', > > Since, by your own admission, you are still a beginner with fish, you > should have asked on the Group here about bringing Elle inside even > before you did so. Whenever bringing fish indoors from a pond, you > should ALWAYS -- whenever possible -- also bring the fish's pond water > inside too, to fill the tank, even if it appears a bit funky. As long > as the pond water's parameters are within proper ranges to promote a > healthy environment for the fish, the pond water should always be used > to fill the fish's indoor holding tank. This will elimiate any > possible stress due to possible different water parameters that can > occur when using tap water to fill the holding tank. The pond water in > the tank can then be changes out gradually if it looks grungy, which > will be ever so much more stress free for the fish. > > Since this is now after the fact, we'll see if we can correct this > present state of affairs. To start with, and I know you want to be > very serious in dealing with Elle's well being, don't ever rely on the > results of test strips, which are notoriously erroneous at least as > often as they're close to being correct. If you want accurate test > results, you should always rely on liquid test kits rather than test > strips. Depending on how strips are stored, and even though they may > still be within their expiration dates (are they?), they very often > give innaccurate results. I'd recommend getting a master kit > manufactured by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc. > > One thing I notice in your message is that you state your tank water's > "Nitrate was at a safe level," but you go on to state that this same > parameter (Nitrate) "was close to the danger level." You're obviously > confusing Nitrate with Nitrite in all of this, but it's impossible for > us to know which is safe and which is dangerous by your statement as > we don't know which is your Nitrite. One extremely important thing > too, whenever giving test results to the List, please give them only > as specific numbers rather than "safe," "okay," "close," "dangerous," > "high," "low" or any other subjective description so that we may know > exactly what they are. > > As soon as possible, I'd advise getting this liquid multi-test kit and > give us the test results in numbers; you'll always need a good > multi-test kit. For now, as we have nothing else to work with, we'll > have to go by what is being offered, and assume -- as both expected > and as appears -- that your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate have > elevated. Nitrate doesn't get dangerous until it reaches well over 200 > ppm, but does start to get harmful after reaching 40 ppm. Still, this > parameter is the least important to have to be concerned about when > realizing that your much more dangerous ammonia and nitrite are > getting high. > > These last two parameters (ammonia and nitrite) are individually each > more dangerous towards the opposite ends of the pH scale, with ammonia > being more harmful the higher the pH becomes and the nitrite becoming > more dangerous as the pH decreases. Still, neither one is reason to > abruptly change the pH as this will only lead to more stress. So, > don't use the Tetra Correct pH (as you don't even know if your pH is > "incorrect"), and don't use the Tetra pH decreaser (as you don't know > that the pH should be decreased) -- at least not until we know what > the tank's pH actually is, in numbers. What IS correct, as for the pH, > is what the pH reads in your pond's water. Your tank water should > closely match (or be somewhat similar to) the water that your fish > came out of -- but since Elle has by now adapted to your tank water's > pH, there's no need to change it unless it's really excessively high, > like near 9.0. Koi do fine at a high pH, even around 8.0. > > Any pH changes should be done gradually though, if at all, and it's > always preferable that it not be changed; it's seldom advantageous to > "fix" the pH, except when absolutely necessary. It would help us > better if you could give us a pH reading in numbers rather than just > "high," as that doesn't say very much in comparison to her needs. > Again though, a result from a liquid pH test kit would be much more > dependable for accuracy as this is particularly one type of test strip > which can be highly inaccurate. > > As Elle has been in this tank water now for a week, she has adjusted > to the tank's pH by now (and has taken any pH stress from this), even > if it was far different from her pond's pH. As concerned with your > organic waste levels -- ammonia and nitrite -- your hardness level is > immaterial. I have to assume that you filled the pond from your tap at > the beginning of the season, and as such, while the tap water hardness > won't be identical now, it would be expected to be close. You do > mention your tank water has a high pH (what is it?). As ammonia is > more toxic the higher the pH becomes, a slightly lower pH might be > preferred, but removing the ammonia not only would be more beneficial > but would also be less stressful than changing the pH (although a > minor change in pH of 0.2 or less would be inconsequential as far as > being stressful for the fish). > > Yes, you're correct, start with making partial water changes (PWC's). > This is one of the best ways of removing excess ammonia and nitrite. > Do NOT turn your filter off, as it needs to continue to cycle (to > build up a population of nitrifying bacteria). Do not vacuum the > gravel, unless it needs it from having excess food and waste lying on > it -- and then -- vacuum only half or less of it at any one time (at > any one week), retaining the most beneficial bacteria on the other > half of the gravel at any one time. > > Noticed you have Stress-Zyme, although I'm not sure if this is the > Tetra brand water conditioner tablets that are available. In any case, > you'll of course need a water conditioner to remove the chloramines > from the tap water when you add it. For keeping the ammonia in a > non-toxic state however, you need to get a liquid water conditioner > like Prime, which will convert any residual ammonia (from both tap > water and from fish waste) into relatively harmless ammonium (while > still having it available as food to feed your nitrifying bacteria > culture in your filter). Do not use the ammonia remover. Not only is > it not needed, but you'll starve out any nitrifying bacteria that are > starting to get established. > > You may use the aquarium salt though, but without yet knowing the test > results in numbers, from a dependable liquid test kit, it's impossible > to know if Elle was subjected to any toxic levels. When you get the > results, also give us the temperature as the toxicity of the ammonia > also partially depends on this. For starters, add 1 teaspoon per > gallon of aquarium salt. As you'll be doing more PWC's you'll be > needing more salt to make up for that which is being lost from its > removal with the PWC's. Salt is beneficial (essential) in reversing > the effects of ammonia poisoning, but we won't know yet if Elle has > experienced ammonia poisoning. If we reach that conclusion by the test > results, you'll need to increase the salt amount (slowly, over the > course of 24 hours) to 3 teaspoons per gallon, and keep it there for > about two weeks -- or until she starts eating again. As you may need > to buy more salt, go to the supermarket and buy a 3 lb. box of Diamond > Crystal salt (which has no additives) as it's the same thing as > "aquarium salt" which you pay much more for. > > One last thing, for now, give us the test results of your tap water, > with liquid test kits, in numbers. > > Ray > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52416	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

The aquaclear HOB filters are actually fairly decent filters. I've been using one for about a year now (I think), and I'm just now getting to the point where the sponge isn't working as well as it should and should probably be replaced (the water flow isn't quite as strong as it used to be). I highly recommend getting a bigger tank for your goldfish though, if you're getting a new filter. At least a 30 gallon for 1 goldfish is recommended as they are very dirty fish. Upgrading your tank and filter will help so you don't have to clean the filter every few days (as I would assume you have to in a 16 gallon tank with more than 1 goldfish in it). Either way you'll still have to clean the filter once a week and do your gravel vacuum and water change at the same time. Amber On 10/29/2011 9:00 AM, A Mejia wrote: > > Haecklers. > I really liked this idea. Unfortunatelly the channel where the filter > cartridge goes would not be very conducive to this method. That led me > to check out forster and found they sell the actual filter for the > foam inserts you are suggesting. Is that the same filter you are > using? Spending $25 for a new filter would likelt give me a great > return on the investment. The filter is a Hagen aquaclear power filter > item id is cd120114. Is that correct? Are you currently using one of this? > > Thanks for your suggestion. > > Alex > Semper Fi > > haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > >I've been running a 55 gallon with a HOB filter for over a year now. > I removed the filter filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert > Sponge. Two actually. I ran it overstocked with never a problem - > nitrites, ammonia zeroes. And I had tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as > messy as goldfish! All you need really is the mechanical filtration > action of the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria > to live on. Basically it's like turning your HOB filter into a huge > external sponge filter. > > > >With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one with my > weekly water change into some of the removed tank water (great for > watering houseplants - watch them turn deep green and lush!) and > replace them with the squeezed one going on top, so every week one of > the two gets squeezed out. After about a year the sponges start to > fall apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big ones > cost $2.50. > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > >> > >> Hello All. > >> > >> My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am > >> getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were > it not > >> for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but > each time I > >> clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. > >> > >> I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and > putting in > >> some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these > bags in > >> this configuration or similar? > >> > >> Alex > >> LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > >> Semper Fi > >> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52417	From: Bill Z	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Getting started videos ?

Does anyone have any strong feelings about good videos for people to look at when they are getting started ? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tropicalfishclub/links/V_001317734816/ I just created this folder above and added some video links but I am a novice with this stuff and it is harder for me to evaluate these videos and spot mis-information than it would be for other people here. ------------- Does everyone dechlorinate the water ? I've inherited a large fresh water aquarium and the person who showed me how to take care of the tanks, didn't mention anything about this. Since I got rid of the snails that were plaguing our tanks, the sucker fish have begun multiplying at a surprising rate and now I am worried that if I didn't start becoming more knowedgeable, a lot of fish could be in jeopardy. Bill Zardus Delaware County, PA

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52418	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: New used tank, yay!

So while I was at my LFS I noticed several of their tanks were for sale and empty. Unfortunately their 2 x 55 gallon tanks were already sold, but I managed to get a 29 tall for only 35 dollars with a heater, gravel, and aquaclear HOB filter, and a cheap fluorescent light fixture. What a score! I'm refilling it right now (they had just taken it apart last night and there was still some water in it, so the gravel should at least still have some partial nitrifying bacteria still alive, just to be safe I'm going to seed it from one of my other HOBs). For now I'm just going to move my guppy's to this tank until I figure out what I'm going to do with it, LOL. I just couldn't resist the price for the whole setup. Hubby isn't nearly as pleased as I am ;) His first comment was, "What happened to the 'no more fish tanks' rule?" Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52419	From: haecklers	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

Yes, that looks like it! What I read is that using charcoal in a filter can remove too many minerals and lead to deficiencies in the fish - one person theorized that hexamita (hole in the head) was caused by mineral deficiencies and removing carbon from the filters was his solution to preventing the problems from ever developing. I've also read that the charcoal removes elements necessary for good plant growth and I have planted tanks. Since they sell clay to add minerals to the water just for breeding koi, I think maybe koi/goldfish would really benefit from having the charcoal removed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, A Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > > Haecklers. > I really liked this idea. Unfortunatelly the channel where the filter cartridge goes would not be very conducive to this method. That led me to check out forster and found they sell the actual filter for the foam inserts you are suggesting. Is that the same filter you are using? Spending $25 for a new filter would likelt give me a great return on the investment. The filter is a Hagen aquaclear power filter item id is cd120114. Is that correct? Are you currently using one of this? > > Thanks for your suggestion. > > Alex > Semper Fi > > haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > >I've been running a 55 gallon with a HOB filter for over a year now. I removed the filter filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert Sponge. Two actually. I ran it overstocked with never a problem - nitrites, ammonia zeroes. And I had tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as messy as goldfish! All you need really is the mechanical filtration action of the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria to live on. Basically it's like turning your HOB filter into a huge external sponge filter. > > > >With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one with my weekly water change into some of the removed tank water (great for watering houseplants - watch them turn deep green and lush!) and replace them with the squeezed one going on top, so every week one of the two gets squeezed out. After about a year the sponges start to fall apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big ones cost $2.50. > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@> wrote: > >> > >> Hello All. > >> > >> My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am > >> getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not > >> for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I > >> clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. > >> > >> I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in > >> some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in > >> this configuration or similar? > >> > >> Alex > >> LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > >> Semper Fi > >> > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52420	From: jasadell	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: How to treat Ick

Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it?

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52421	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Getting started videos ?

Hi Bill, Using dechlorinator: I am a great believer in not adding anything to my water unless absolutely necessary so unless I need to do a water change in an emergency I will age my water overnight in tubs with an airstone or small pump running. This will dissipate the chlorine that the water company put in there, with a pond you can simply set your hose on fine spray & atomize the chlorine out. However, if your local water company use chloramine instead of chlorine the above precautions will not work because the ammonia in chloramine stays in the water for weeks. If your local water company uses chloramine then water conditioners are essential. You can check this on your local water company's website-most have a facility where you input your post/zip code & it returns a whole listing of the water constituents in your area. Alternatively you can just call them & ask! John*<o)))< * On 29 October 2011 17:06, Bill Z <devilsadvacat@...> wrote: > ** > > > > Does anyone have any strong feelings about > good videos for people to look at when they > are getting started ? > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tropicalfishclub/links/V_001317734816/ > I just created this folder above and added some > video links but I am a novice with this stuff > and it is harder for me to evaluate these > videos and spot mis-information than it would > be for other people here. > > ------------- > > Does everyone dechlorinate the water ? > > I've inherited a large fresh water aquarium > and the person who showed me how to take > care of the tanks, didn't mention anything > about this. > > Since I got rid of the snails that were > plaguing our tanks, the sucker fish have begun > multiplying at a surprising rate and now > I am worried that if I didn't start becoming > more knowedgeable, a lot of fish could be > in jeopardy. > > Bill Zardus > Delaware County, PA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52422	From: Ray	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52423	From: Bill	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick   Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52424	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 10/29/2011
Subject: Re: Filter Media Bags

Thanks Heacklers. I was already planning not to use the carbon. Thank you all for your help. Alex From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 6:15 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Filter Media Bags Yes, that looks like it! What I read is that using charcoal in a filter can remove too many minerals and lead to deficiencies in the fish - one person theorized that hexamita (hole in the head) was caused by mineral deficiencies and removing carbon from the filters was his solution to preventing the problems from ever developing. I've also read that the charcoal removes elements necessary for good plant growth and I have planted tanks. Since they sell clay to add minerals to the water just for breeding koi, I think maybe koi/goldfish would really benefit from having the charcoal removed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , A Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > > Haecklers. > I really liked this idea. Unfortunatelly the channel where the filter cartridge goes would not be very conducive to this method. That led me to check out forster and found they sell the actual filter for the foam inserts you are suggesting. Is that the same filter you are using? Spending $25 for a new filter would likelt give me a great return on the investment. The filter is a Hagen aquaclear power filter item id is cd120114. Is that correct? Are you currently using one of this? > > Thanks for your suggestion. > > Alex > Semper Fi > > haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > >I've been running a 55 gallon with a HOB filter for over a year now. I removed the filter filling stuff and put in an AquaClear Foam Insert Sponge. Two actually. I ran it overstocked with never a problem - nitrites, ammonia zeroes. And I had tinfoil barbs, which are nearly as messy as goldfish! All you need really is the mechanical filtration action of the sponge plus the large surface area for the good bacteria to live on. Basically it's like turning your HOB filter into a huge external sponge filter. > > > >With two sponges in the space, I squeeze out the bottom one with my weekly water change into some of the removed tank water (great for watering houseplants - watch them turn deep green and lush!) and replace them with the squeezed one going on top, so every week one of the two gets squeezed out. After about a year the sponges start to fall apart but they're cheap to replace - my last box of 3 big ones cost $2.50. > > > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@> wrote: > >> > >> Hello All. > >> > >> My son's 16 gallon Goldfish tank currently has a small HOB filter. I am > >> getting tired of having to remove and clean the filter it has. Were it not > >> for the carbon these filters have I could keep reusing them but each time I > >> clean it the carbon rocks tear apart the lining of the filters. > >> > >> I was thinking of using some of the mesh filter media bags and putting in > >> some Purigen as I do with my wet/dry. Has anyone else used these bags in > >> this configuration or similar? > >> > >> Alex > >> LCpl, USMC (Inactive) > >> Semper Fi > >> > > > > > _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.1834 / Virus Database: 2092/4582 - Release Date: 10/29/11 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52425	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Thanks Bill (in VA), I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after the 2 full days. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > >   > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52426	From: Al Keep	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!

I just couldn't resist the price for the whole setup. Hubby isn't nearly > as pleased as I am ;) His first comment was, "What happened to the 'no > more fish tanks' rule?" > > Amber > LOL! :-)>>>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52427	From: harry perry	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Amber......Re: [AquaticLife] Re: New used tank, yay!

Hubby knows rules are made to be broken. Besides there is no such thing as too many tanks. Harry ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 8:08 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New used tank, yay!   I just couldn't resist the price for the whole setup. Hubby isn't nearly > as pleased as I am ;) His first comment was, "What happened to the 'no > more fish tanks' rule?" > > Amber > LOL! :-)>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52428	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!

A bargain-it would have been rude *NOT* to buy it at that price!! John*<o)))<* On 30 October 2011 12:08, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > ** > > > I just couldn't resist the price for the whole setup. Hubby isn't nearly > > as pleased as I am ;) His first comment was, "What happened to the 'no > > more fish tanks' rule?" > > > > Amber > > > LOL! :-)>>> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52429	From: haecklers	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Want to add one thing I just found out (the hard way). When you raise the temp of the tank, if you have a lot of suobstrate, soil, decorations, etc. they can stay cold even when the water is warm, also there may be dead zones that don't have much current that can be colder than the rest of the tank. If that's the case, even raising the temperature to pretty high, you'll continue to have ich problems for several days because there are areas where the ich can still live and reproduce and infect fish that get too close. I just had to break down my 30 gallon and move the surviving fry to a 10-gallon with no substrate to finish off this ich infestation! UGH! Under the rocks and thicker parts of the substrate - Jack Dempseys redecorate and make piles, it felt quite cool compared to the warm water. No wonder my heat treatment wasn't working! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52430	From: jasadell	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? Jd --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after the 2 full days. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > >   > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52431	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus increasing the oxygen. If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. Amber On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > Jd > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > the 2 full days. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > >  > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52432	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower temperature. John*<o)))< * On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > increasing the oxygen. > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > Amber > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > Jd > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52433	From: harry perry	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise a fish's immune system. Harry ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick   It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower temperature. John*<o)))< * On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > increasing the oxygen. > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > Amber > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > Jd > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52434	From: Bill	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

John,,, I'm with ya on the root systems... I just transplanted some Amz. Swords and Crypts.. these roots were over 8 inches long!.. And as white as a sundried bone.. LOL... The only issue I faced was, that even though I'm 6'1", I'm planting in a 155G.. Sucks that ya can't see where you're planting!... My armpits are submerged to reach the bottom.  How women or shorter stature d men plant a 27" deep tank is beyond me!.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn!   Dawn, In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52435	From: haecklers	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

Maybe sometimes. I've gotten pet store fish that came down with it (or maybe bloomed) after I brought them home. If I'm not REALLY careful then it can get into other tanks and spread like wildfire, wiping out whole spawns of fry that were thriving up 'til then. It also kills EBJD's on contact, or so it seems. It's like just one spore and down they go in a week or so. So maybe there are more virulent strains that can cause a lot of problems if you aren't very careful about quarantine and sterilizing everything that goes from one tank to another. I do daily water changes on my fry tanks. Short of using RO water, their water is as close as it gets to perfect, they are underfed compared to many breeders, and they aren't stressed or suffering temperature fluctuations. So I say if your tanks are stable or you have baby fish, don't ever bring in a pet store fish. Even if it goes in a quarantine tank and you use separate equipment you can suffer heavy losses in your fry tanks. Well, that's been my last few weeks anyway. :( --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise a fish's immune system. > > Harry > > > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > >   > It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the > temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life > cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower > temperature. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > > increasing the oxygen. > > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > > > Jd > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52436	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

All the more reason for heavy aeration with and airstone, as I recommended, rather than just rely on the output of one's filter. There are some hobbyists though, who just plain don't believe in needing airpumps and aeration with an airstone -- the reason why I suggest turning up their filter output if it's adjustable. Heavy aeration is always the way to go when treating for Ich however, aside from the reason for ensuring the best oxygen content of the water for the benefit of the fish at higher temperatures. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Want to add one thing I just found out (the hard way). When you raise the temp of the tank, if you have a lot of substrate, soil, decorations, etc. they can stay cold even when the water is warm, also there may be dead zones that don't have much current that can be colder than the rest of the tank. If that's the case, even raising the temperature to pretty high, you'll continue to have ich problems for several days because there are areas where the ich can still live and reproduce and infect fish that get too close. > > I just had to break down my 30 gallon and move the surviving fry to a 10-gallon with no substrate to finish off this ich infestation! UGH! Under the rocks and thicker parts of the substrate - Jack Dempseys redecorate and make piles, it felt quite cool compared to the warm water. No wonder my heat treatment wasn't working! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to cure it? > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52437	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

I've read this a number of times throughout the years, and not having anything to suggest otherwise it seems most feasible. My take on this though, is that when there is an Ich outbreak, that all the Ich in the tank including those cysts lying latent in the gravel are now fully active in one stage or another in the water column. With the heat treatment, their further reproduction is stopped dead in its tracks, completely eliminating Ich from this tank -- until the possible introduction to it again with the addition of more fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise a fish's immune system. > > Harry > > > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > >   > It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the > temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life > cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower > temperature. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > > increasing the oxygen. > > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > > > Jd > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52438	From: Ray	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Bill (in VA), I've seen precious little here on the actual methods of properly planting stem (rooted) plants in the aquarium, such as Swords, Crypts, Val and Sag, etc. It's probably about time that I mention just how this should be done -- although it won't help the problem of trying to reach the bottom of a 27" deep tank. A plant should never be just thrust down into the substrate where one wants it to end up being planted, as there's the root system to be concerned about -- and that should not just be an afterthought to be merely buried as best can by the gravel. If, for instance, you have a plant with roots 8" long, as you describe here, you are to start burying the plant at a distance some 8" away from where you want it to finally wind up at, and drag the plant through the substrate towards its final planting location while spreading its roots out as evenly as you can with your fingers beneath the substrate as you drag it. There may be a few roots left over which just don't make it under the gravel but those few, you can just cover with substrate near its surface. Now, getting back to the problem of planting in a deep take -- and without getting a snorkel on -- some of the algae scrubbers on a long stick have "V" shaped notches at the opposite end. They are for holding a plant just under its crown, to push a plant down and drag it though the substrate to plant it. Years ago, there where accessories made just for this purpose, sold as "planting sticks," again with a "V" notch in one end. As you can't reach the substrate with your hand to spread the roots through it though, these planting stick did not allow for the spreading of the plants roots but at least they allowed one to reach the substrate more easily to push a plant down into it as best as one could. Then, once anchored, the roots could be pushed down into the substrate from that point until they were assurred to hold the plant. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > John,,, I'm with ya on the root systems... I just transplanted some Amz. Swords and Crypts.. these roots were over 8 inches long!.. And as white as a sundried bone.. LOL... The only issue I faced was, that even though I'm 6'1", I'm planting in a 155G.. Sucks that ya can't see where you're planting!... My armpits are submerged to reach the bottom.  How women or shorter stature d men plant a 27" deep tank is beyond me!.. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:32 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! > > >   > Dawn, > > In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is > then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Hi John, > > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do > chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite > that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > > > I hope this info helps. > > > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > > for it. > > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > > in the photos. > > > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > > round > > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > > 50 > > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > > > * > > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > > sort > > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > > keep the > > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > > have > > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > > them up > > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > > it was > > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > > once or > > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > > media > > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > > the > > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > > the > > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > > few > > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > > tanks > > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > > additives > > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > > pleco, > > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > > feed" my > > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > > and > > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > > larger. > > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > > they > > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > > then > > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > > there > > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > > until > > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > > with a > > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > > I > > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > > goes > > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > > As > > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > > the > > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > > let > > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > > likes > > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > > root > > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > > the > > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > > with > > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > > buildup > > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > > ago > > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > > loaded > > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > > they > > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > > out > > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > > this > > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > > food > > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > > feeding > > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > > the > > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > > again. > > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > > work > > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > > how > > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > > for > > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > > particulars > > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > > lighting? > > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52439	From: Bill	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

Ich in every tank?.. Odd.. I do NO water changes other than to replenish after a vacuum or evaporation.. I've (knock on wood) have yet to be visited with that ....thing... So where does this Ich come from?.. Airborne?  Bill in Va.   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick   I've read this a number of times throughout the years, and not having anything to suggest otherwise it seems most feasible. My take on this though, is that when there is an Ich outbreak, that all the Ich in the tank including those cysts lying latent in the gravel are now fully active in one stage or another in the water column. With the heat treatment, their further reproduction is stopped dead in its tracks, completely eliminating Ich from this tank -- until the possible introduction to it again with the addition of more fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise a fish's immune system. > > Harry > > > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > >   > It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the > temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life > cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower > temperature. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > > increasing the oxygen. > > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > > > Jd > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52440	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

I understand that Flukes as well as Ich can be completely eradicated fromfish who are kept in a closed community for several years, ie no new fish added. I don't think there is any hard scientific evidence for this but I've heard it from fish vets plus those who work in the pond maintenance industry. Has anyone here heard anything similar? John*<o)))< * On 30 October 2011 23:53, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > ** > > > Ich in every tank?.. Odd.. I do NO water changes other than to replenish > after a vacuum or evaporation.. I've (knock on wood) have yet to be visited > with that ....thing... So where does this Ich come from?.. Airborne? Bill > in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 7:24 PM > Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > I've read this a number of times throughout the years, and not having > anything to suggest otherwise it seems most feasible. My take on this > though, is that when there is an Ich outbreak, that all the Ich in the tank > including those cysts lying latent in the gravel are now fully active in > one stage or another in the water column. With the heat treatment, their > further reproduction is stopped dead in its tracks, completely eliminating > Ich from this tank -- until the possible introduction to it again with the > addition of more fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> > wrote: > > > > Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our > aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to > flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise > a fish's immune system. > > > > Harry > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > >  > > It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the > > temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life > > cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower > > temperature. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray > said > > > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > > > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > > > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > > > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > > > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > > > increasing the oxygen. > > > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some > loaches > > > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > > > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > > > > > Jd > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- > and > > > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two > day > > > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the > last > > > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 > or > > > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection > after > > > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. > Then > > > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way > to > > > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52441	From: pam andress	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

My biggest tank is a 55, so it isn't too bad to plant plants, but if I had to do a deeper tank, I would just have to get a snorkel and dive in as far as needed. lol Pam @ 5'5 1/2" To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: williemcd@... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 13:32:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! John,,, I'm with ya on the root systems... I just transplanted some Amz. Swords and Crypts.. these roots were over 8 inches long!.. And as white as a sundried bone.. LOL... The only issue I faced was, that even though I'm 6'1", I'm planting in a 155G.. Sucks that ya can't see where you're planting!... My armpits are submerged to reach the bottom. How women or shorter stature d men plant a 27" deep tank is beyond me!.. Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 6:32 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Yo Dawn! Dawn, In reading down further into your message to John about plants (Val), I just noticed you recommend trimming the roots back to 2" to 3" because you claim longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up their food. This is absolutely ludicrous! Plants evolved long root systems just for the purpose of obtaining their food. The more extensive and luxurious the root system, the easier it will be for the plant to obtain the adequate nutrients needed to support and promote a luxurious growth of leaves. Cutting the root system way back to 3" or less will immensely set back the plant until it can regrow sufficient roots again; such drastic trimming will only serve to starve the plant. When purchasing plants, the best and most healthiest plants are judged by their root systems. The larger, and whiter their root systems are, the more successful and healthier the plant will be when transplanted to the hobbyist's tank. Their continued health is then dependent upon the hobbyist to supply the proper water and nutrient conditions going forward. Having fish that continually nibble at the leaves until they are nubs, and having other fish that digs up the roots until either these roots (or the plant iteself) is floating, are not very conducive to good plant growth and fully explains John's recent failure with these plants. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that everything his plants are experiencing from his fish is highly detrimental to them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi John, > Thanks for sharing all that info about your tank. Hearing that the temp is at least 77 degrees makes more sense to me now with the hornwort. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Also hearing that the plants do best when you have a heatwave also makes sense. Those 2 species of plant tend to thrive best in warmer water. > > You asked if I had any suggestions for your tending to your Val plants... and I do have 1 suggestion along with another question. Question first... when you planted the standard val and the corkscrew, did you mix the 2 species together into the same pot? I'm asking because you mentioned the lack of spiraling leaves and it is possible for these 2 plants to cross breed, leaving you with new juvenile plants down the line that have very little to no spiraling of the leaves. > My suggestion for you, if you're not already doing it... when repotting them, trim the root structures back to about a 2 - 3 inch length. While this will make them a little harder to keep anchored in the pots, this will help their growth. The rocks you lay over the top of the pots should help to keep them anchored. > > The reason for trimming the roots is quite simple... longer roots make it more difficult for the plants to take up food. The roots are "feeding tubes" and the longer they are the further the nutrients have to travel to nourish the plants. This could be a big reason behind the slowed growth. A lot of people advise leaving the roots alone, but I was taught to do this by a botanist yrs ago and have always had great results (not to mention the scientific explanation he gave me for it made perfect sense). The only cautions are not to trim them too short (less than 2 inches) and to check nutrient levels/organic waste in the substrate (do a gravel vac before hand if needed) so as not to burn the newly cut ends of the roots. There is such a thing as too much food/nutrient level for plants, and too much of a good thing is no good. > > If you are in doubt about the trimming, try it on just 1 pot of the plants and watch for a few wks to see the results before trimming the others. You should see a noticeable change by end of the first month after trimming (if not sooner)... enough to convince you it has worked and the others would benefit from the same trimming process. Unlike fish, plants should not need "new blood" to perk up growth rate. > > In regards to the naja grass, considering the temp your tank runs during heat waves, I wouldn't suggest it. Unlike the hornwort and Vals, naja grass literally melts when the temp gets above about 76. It prefers the cooler water temps and thrives from 74 - 76. I have tried to grow it in some of my warmer tanks but it always ends up the same way... it struggles until it dies, and when it dies it hikes the waste level in the tank quickly. Unlike the hornwort, the leaves are not needle-like enough to be easily sucked through a filter system, so instead it sort of lays there and rots away. The raised nutrient level it causes when it dies tends to cause heavy hair algae blooms that can be a pain to get rid of. The hair algae starts to grow right on the dying plant matter and seems to feed directly off of the dying/rotting plant mass. > And, lastly, naja grass and hornwort are not compatible together in the same tank. They starve each other out. The naja grass feeds the same way as the hornwort, direct from the water column for most part. While naja does send out root systems that can anchor in the substrate over time, this is not the primary source of feeding for this plant. As the 2 plants get near each other during growth and floating they literally get intertwined and the dying plants (both struggle) also feed hair algae. I have tried mixing these 2 plants many times over the yrs in many different situations, but the end result is always the same. Not all plants are compatible with each other. (much like incompatible corals that combat each other when too close together) Mixing hornwort and naja grass together also tends to cause and feed bacterial blooms that only go away when one of the plant species is entirely removed. There are a few other plants I know of that do chemical warfare in such a way if planted anywhere near each other in the same tank... (broadleaf ludwigia and bacopa are one combo that don't work, especially in smaller tanks) I have had a lot of fun experimenting with plants over the years and the first time I witnessed and documented the chemical warfare I was hooked... spent a few yrs just mixing various species in 10 and 20 gallon tanks to see their reactions to each other and documenting my findings. The bacopa/ludwigia experiment was by far the fastest acting warfare, both initiating the bacterial bloom and clearing it up when one was removed. It happened within 20 - 30 minutes each time and cleared up in less than 30 minutes each time one was removed. It is quite a sight to see it happen and stop in such a short time frame, like watching someone set a cloud into the tank, swirling and dense, and then lifting it out again just as fast. While the hornwort/naja grass combo was never quite that dramatic or fast acting, it has been pretty clear to me that its not a compatible mix. > > I hope this info helps. > > I will be posting the pics that Bill requested, hopefully this week, I need time to take them first, lol. I have a busy schedule so will get to it as soon as possible. > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > Since I started in the hobby I have always favoured real plants over fake > > ones even though they are harder to do & especially with my Goldfish who see > > everything I put in as food! I have tried quite a lot of plants & most of > > them get uprooted or destroyed withing a matter of days & Vallis was the > > only one that seemed to withstand the onslaught & even then I had to pot up > > 3 lots before it stood a fighting chance but now it is growing fine. The > > temperature in my tank is pretty stable all year round at 77 although in > > severe heatwaves it has gone way up. It usually grows best during the > > heatwaves & can reach about 3 feet. My tank is 20" deep so the trailing > > leaves on the surface look great in the flow from my outlets. > > > > I do prune & re-pot my Vallis from time to time but the plants I have now > > are about 5 years old & not as prolific as they used to be so I probably > > could do with some new root stock to perk them up a bit. I have 2 fish that > > are determined to prevent my Vallis growing-one will meticulously nibble on > > one leaf until it is gone & the other digs the roots up then leaves them to > > float around! Originally I had both straight & corkscrew varieties but over > > the years they seem to have diluted into one generic plant type although > > occasionally I will see a new spiral leaf appear. Do you have any tips on > > pruning &/or re-potting this plant? I use regular clay plant pots with > > TetraPlant growing substrate. I have to put stones on the top of the > > substrate or the fish dig it all out again. > > > > I have only been using Hornwort for a few months, specifically to eat the > > NO3 & so far it seems to be working well but also is a nice looking plant. I > > know what you mean about the mess of dropping needles-luckily I have 2 > > powerful weir intakes either side of my tank so anything loose in the water > > column is gone in a few minutes. The fish ate a lot of the original plant > > but the stems have since sprouted new fronds & the fish have gotten bored > > with it now which is good news for me. It has gathered around some of my > > airlines in small bunches as well as some free-floating around. > > > > I'm interested in your Naja Grass, looking forward to seeing your pictures. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > > > > On 14 October 2011 06:05, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Thanks John! Glad to hear you're able to grow it too, it can be challenging > > > to grow. The stuff I used to get from the pet store or even the wholesalers > > > would come in dark green and coarse, but after a few weeks in my tank it > > > would soften, lighten up in color, and then the tips turn bring pink. Its a > > > beautiful plant. When it does really well its also very fast growing, which > > > can be invasive or a lot of work to keep up with. I've tracked growth rate > > > on it from time to time and mine averages 3 - 4 ft of growth per strand in > > > about a month, which requires a lot of trimming unless you find an outlet > > > for it. > > > I'm a little surprised to hear its thriving in a goldfish tank though, as > > > it tends to prefer the warmer water. Can I ask what temp you run your tank > > > at? I've grown it in goldfish tanks before but it tends to struggle there, > > > not the thick soft plumes of it that I get in the tropical tanks. > > > > > > The drawback to growing hornwort is that if it doesn't work out in a tank > > > its a pain in the butt to clean up. It drops needles like a dead pine tree > > > and makes a horrible mess, which also contributes to some huge ammonia, > > > nitrite, and nitrate spikes. The only tank I keep it in now is the 90 gallon > > > in the photos. > > > > > > I have naja grass in most of my others, which also grows like a weed and is > > > great for nitrate consumption. I will have to post more pics in my album so > > > you can see how that looks, I have fun with that too, but it also needs a > > > lot of maintenance to keep it trimmed or it gets so thick the bigger fish > > > can't get through it. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Dawn, > > > > > > > > I love how the Hornwort looks in your tank anchored down like an > > > > underwater forest-I bet the fish really have a good time in there. I have > > > > Hornwort floating around in my Goldfish tank & it tends to accumulate > > > round > > > > the airlines which is fine as it grows in clumps then. I agree about how > > > > good it is at eating the NO3, before I added it my NO3 used to run up to > > > 50 > > > > after 3 days, now it barely gets to 25 before a water change. > > > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > > > * > > > > On 13 October 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@ > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Bill! Thanks, I'm glad you like the tank, although I must admit its > > > sort > > > > > of a mess at the moment with all the fry in there... lol. Usually I > > > keep the > > > > > plants anchored better, but the fry seem to like more floating so they > > > have > > > > > more hiding places up top, and the shark does a good job of pulling > > > them up > > > > > when the parent fish are chasing him. > > > > > > > > > > Tank stats are as follows: > > > > > Standard 90 gallon tank, 48l x 18w x 24h > > > > > > > > > > Lighting: 2 twin bulb HO T5 fixtures, one on legs and the other resting > > > > > directly on the top of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Open top, no cover on this tank > > > > > > > > > > 2 filters, 1 Aqueon 55 HOB and one Aquaclear (the largest one, not sure > > > > > what name they have given it now days...back when I bought it yrs ago > > > it was > > > > > also listed as a "55" model, I know they have renamed them at least > > > once or > > > > > twice since then). Sponges on both intake tubes to protect the fry; > > > > > > > > > > filter media is the aquaclear sponge along with some blue/white pad > > > media > > > > > in the aquaclear and the aqueon has the 2 aqueon cartridges along with > > > the > > > > > blue/white media in there. There is also 1 stalk of bamboo growing in > > > the > > > > > aquaclear filter. > > > > > > > > > > Substrate is 100 lbs of basic pea gravel bought at Menards. > > > > > > > > > > Rock work is a combination of petrified wood, flat round rocks, and a > > > few > > > > > misc pieces of rainbow, zebra, and lace rock borrowed from my other > > > tanks > > > > > over the yrs. > > > > > > > > > > Plants are hornwort, willow moss, and large leaf silk plants from the > > > > > dollar store. > > > > > > > > > > There is no CO2 in this tank, never has been. No fertilizers, no > > > additives > > > > > of any kind. > > > > > > > > > > Temp is 76 - 78, depending on time of year, as there is a bit of a rise > > > > > during the winter months when the heat is on in the house. > > > > > > > > > > Animals: 1 adult breeding pair of angels, 1 red tail shark, 1 rubber > > > pleco, > > > > > and 100+ angel fry that are now dime to nickel size. I don't "power > > > feed" my > > > > > fish, so the fry grow up in this tank over about a 4 month time frame > > > and > > > > > then go to the pet store when they hit quarter size or just a bit > > > larger. > > > > > The fry in there now are about 2 months old. > > > > > > > > > > Feedings are Aqueon tropical flakes, newly hatched baby brine, and from > > > > > time to time frozen adult brine and mysis shrimp (as the fry get large > > > > > enough to eat it). I feed once/day, this includes the fry from the time > > > they > > > > > start eating until they leave for the store. > > > > > > > > > > Water changes are once/wk unless evaporation gets heavy in the summer, > > > then > > > > > its twice/wk, 30% each time. > > > > > > > > > > Its actually a pretty basic and easy set up, nothing special. When > > > there > > > > > are eggs or fry in the tank one of the light fixtures stays on 24/7 > > > until > > > > > the fry get to be about dime size, then I slowly start to turn it off > > > with a > > > > > room light over the tank at night, until eventually its dark at night. > > > I > > > > > have to wean the fry from the light otherwise they freak out when it > > > goes > > > > > dark. I do this to protect them from the shark who hunts in the dark. > > > As > > > > > long as the light stays on he leaves the fry alone and sticks to eating > > > the > > > > > foods I offer him. > > > > > > > > > > Water params are always the same...I get little fluctuation. Ammonia 0, > > > > > nitrite 0, nitrate 10 or below, pH 8.4. However, with that said I must > > > let > > > > > you know that the reason for the low nitrate level is because of the > > > > > hornwort. That is the only tank in my house I can grow it in. Hornwort > > > likes > > > > > a lot of light and heavy nutrient level to feed on. It doesn't have a > > > root > > > > > structure so a heavy nitrate level is its primary food source. Without > > > the > > > > > hornwort in that tank I would be doing daily water changes to keep up > > > with > > > > > fish waste when I have fry in that tank. There is never any organic > > > buildup > > > > > in the gravel bed, either. The last gravel vac I did was about 5 months > > > ago > > > > > and the water all came up clear. I do this about twice/yr just in case, > > > > > never had anything really come up in it, though. This tank is also > > > loaded > > > > > full of rams horn and trumpet snails. I pluck the rams horn snails as > > > they > > > > > grow and use them for food for my geophagus cichlids. > > > > > > > > > > The only other thing I can think to mention is that when I am feeding > > > out > > > > > baby brine for the angel fry I do get hair algae growing rampant in > > > this > > > > > tank. I pull it here and there as it tries to choke out the plants, but > > > > > otherwise I let it grow. It offers a good breeding ground for natural > > > food > > > > > supply for the fry in between feedings (is how I get away with only > > > feeding > > > > > once/day). Between spawns the hair algae stops growing, then I anchor > > > the > > > > > pulled up/floating plants, and wait a wk or 2 before the angels spawn > > > again. > > > > > Hornwort can't be anchored securely in the substrate so I use the rock > > > work > > > > > to weight it down. I will dig through my photos and find one for you of > > > how > > > > > the tank looks between spawns when the hornwort is all anchored. Watch > > > for > > > > > it in my album. > > > > > > > > > > Thats all I can think of... If you have questions, please feel free to > > > ask. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Lady, > > > > > > > > > > > > That is truly one beautiful tank! Would you mind posting its > > > particulars > > > > > > such as its dimensions, inhabitants and most importantly, its > > > lighting? > > > > > > Are you using a CO2 system? Those plants are great looking! > > > > > > > > > > > > bill > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52442	From: Enid Rodriguez	Date: 10/30/2011
Subject: Re: New used tank, yay!

That is kind of like my hubby's "no more cats" rule; I came home one day to find 2 new kittens, and the 2 turned to be 3 one black, one calico, one blue point siamese.... but when I went to the bathroom the black kitten was already there, then it turned out it was 3 black ones one calico and one siamese..... Rules are made to be shattered! Enid ________________________________ From: Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 7:08 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: New used tank, yay!   I just couldn't resist the price for the whole setup. Hubby isn't nearly > as pleased as I am ;) His first comment was, "What happened to the 'no > more fish tanks' rule?" > > Amber > LOL! :-)>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52443	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!

Bill, In answer to your question about how "shorter" women manage such a task, its called a water change. :-) I have a pair of 215 gallon tanks that are both planted and decorated without problems or worry of diving in, nor do I soak myself in the process. When I need to do such things I simply do a water change and place the decor or plants when the water level is at its lowest. This not only allows me to reach in without submerging my face, but I can actually see what I'm doing at the same time. My tanks are 28" deep, but when I do a 30 - 35% water change that leaves me with a depth of about 18 inches or so. It makes a huge difference! Hope that helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > John,,, I'm with ya on the root systems... I just transplanted some Amz. Swords and Crypts.. these roots were over 8 inches long!.. And as white as a sundried bone.. LOL... The only issue I faced was, that even though I'm 6'1", I'm planting in a 155G.. Sucks that ya can't see where you're planting!... My armpits are submerged to reach the bottom.  How women or shorter stature d men plant a 27" deep tank is beyond me!.. Bill in Va. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52444	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Out with the old! If I do a deep clean first, it shouldn't be a MAJOR mess. They're due for a deep cleaning in the next few days. Maybe I'll remove most of the gravel then. And then the rest won't hold quite as much of a mess for next time -- at which time I'll remove the rest and add the new. I don't want the two gravels to mix. ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably > what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all > without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. > > > > You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely > brighten up your tank. > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > > > > H Kai, > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@... > <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do > on > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > growing something bad instead? > > ~Kai > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give > any > > > > > answers: > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the > old > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > gallons > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > remove > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > instead > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52445	From: Ray	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Kai, Since it wasn't really spelled out precisely, when it was suggested to you to change only part of the gravel at one time, I hope you don't think that this means to take a layer off of the top of the gravel over the entire area of the tank, and leave the bottom half of the gravel there to be changed at another time. Changing part of the gravel means to remove all of the gravel -- from the top to the bottom -- in one section of the tank, then add new gravel only to that area. After about a weekm you go back and remove all of the gravel in another area and do the same. As an example, if you had a tank 24" long X 12" wide, and you were to change half of the gravel in this tank, you would remove all of the gravel from an area 12" by 12" (half the tank -- half the gravel), let's say the left side of the tank, and add half of your new gravel to this left side of the tank that is now completely devoid of gravel. After a week's time, you do the same to the other 12" X 12" portion of the tank, the right hand side of the tank. This preserves the nitrifying bacteria on the surface of the right hand side of the tank until the left hand side of the tank's new gravel surface starts to establish nitrifying bacteria before the old, right side of the tank's gravel is removed. This prevents a mini-cycle from occurring, that (even though much/most? of the nitrifying bacteria reside in the filter) often will when all of the nitrifying bacteria on the surface of the gravel is removed all at once. For this same reason, and especially in a newly set up tank, it is highly recommended to vacuum only half of the tank each week, alternating sides every week -- to ensure that there is always at least half of the gravel's surface retaining a full complement of bacteria at any one time. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > Out with the old! > > If I do a deep clean first, it shouldn't be a MAJOR mess. > > They're due for a deep cleaning in the next few days. Maybe I'll remove most of the gravel then. And then the rest won't hold quite as much of a mess for next time -- at which time I'll remove the rest and add the new. I don't want the two gravels to mix. > ~Kai > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably > > what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all > > without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. > > > > > > > > You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely > > brighten up your tank. > > > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > > > > > > > > > > H Kai, > > > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@ > > <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do > > on > > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > > growing something bad instead? > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > , Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give > > any > > > > > > answers: > > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the > > old > > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > > gallons > > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > > remove > > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > > instead > > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52446	From: harry perry	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

Sounds totally logical to me. Harry ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 7:24 PM Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick   I've read this a number of times throughout the years, and not having anything to suggest otherwise it seems most feasible. My take on this though, is that when there is an Ich outbreak, that all the Ich in the tank including those cysts lying latent in the gravel are now fully active in one stage or another in the water column. With the heat treatment, their further reproduction is stopped dead in its tracks, completely eliminating Ich from this tank -- until the possible introduction to it again with the addition of more fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > Quite a bit of research suggest that Ick is always present in our aquariums. It is the fish's compromised immune system that allows it to flare up. Over stocked, overfed and no weekly water changes will compromise a fish's immune system. > > Harry > > > > ________________________________ > From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2011 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > >   > It's a similar method with treating Ich in Goldfish tanks-whack the > temperature way up so even the surviving parasites have a shorter life > cycle in heat & therefore it is quicker to deal with than running a lower > temperature. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 30 October 2011 19:32, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > Some fish will not do well at higher temps, which is the reason Ray said > > to get an airstone to increase the oxygen in the water, when you raise > > the temps this lowers the oxygen content in the water and some fish can > > actually suffocate if there is too low of an oxygen level. Get at least > > 1 airstone, maybe 2, or at least lower the water level so your outtake > > on your filter pours into the tank and causes surface agitation, thus > > increasing the oxygen. > > If you have any cold water fish (goldfish for instance, and some loaches > > such as hillstream loaches) it is very important that you get airstones > > and such to increase the oxygen at such a high temperature. > > > > Amber > > > > On 10/30/2011 11:15 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > > > No cencerns about the high temp to the fish? > > > > > > Jd > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks Bill (in VA), > > > > > > > > I appreciate your commending of my post, and your support. No need > > > to go to any excesses here on this subject; thought I'd just explain > > > it straight forward and to the point. No room for confusion that way. > > > I would welcome any questions on the topic though, if no one quite > > > understands it, but it's really quite simple and most effective -- and > > > with no question of subjecting any fish, even the most sensitive ones > > > (especially the scale-less ones), to the stress of Ich medications. > > > Just as some medications are directly toxic to pathogens, so are they > > > to fish, only luckily that level that's toxic to fish isn't usually > > > fatal (except in the case of scale-less species). > > > > > > > > Always best if we can avoid using any kind of chemicals in the > > > aquarium whenever we can, and dye medications such as Malachite Green > > > are chemicals which are always best avoided in the fishes' > > > environment. While on this subject again, I'll add to the full two day > > > waiting/watching period before lowering the temperature after the last > > > sign of Ich is seen. At 86 o, Ich's lifecycle takes 48 hours. The > > > object of waiting that additional 2 days is to ensure this 48 hour > > > window is met or exceeded so that any latent Ich trophonts that may > > > still be residing within this 48 hours do not reinfect the fish. 50 or > > > 52 hours would even be better, but I've never seen a reinfection after > > > the 2 full days. > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ray.. great post.. Bill in Va. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 8:56 PM > > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in > > > the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all > > > thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then > > > add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > > > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the > > > temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of > > > Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this > > > could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich > > > cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a > > > heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a > > > foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation > > > insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, > > > while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Looks like I have ick in my cichlid tank. What's the best way to > > > cure it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52447	From: kuradi8	Date: 10/31/2011
Subject: Re: Replacing Gravel

Ignore that post. It's from weeks ago. I don't know why it reappeared with today's date. We all discussed and resolved the issue and then it turned out that the stones I bought weren't suitable anyway so there went my grand idea. My tank will remain as it is. Those old rocks aren't so bad after all. Thanks for replying again. :o) ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Kai, > > Since it wasn't really spelled out precisely, when it was suggested to you to change only part of the gravel at one time, I hope you don't think that this means to take a layer off of the top of the gravel over the entire area of the tank, and leave the bottom half of the gravel there to be changed at another time. > > Changing part of the gravel means to remove all of the gravel -- from the top to the bottom -- in one section of the tank, then add new gravel only to that area. After about a weekm you go back and remove all of the gravel in another area and do the same. > > As an example, if you had a tank 24" long X 12" wide, and you were to change half of the gravel in this tank, you would remove all of the gravel from an area 12" by 12" (half the tank -- half the gravel), let's say the left side of the tank, and add half of your new gravel to this left side of the tank that is now completely devoid of gravel. After a week's time, you do the same to the other 12" X 12" portion of the tank, the right hand side of the tank. This preserves the nitrifying bacteria on the surface of the right hand side of the tank until the left hand side of the tank's new gravel surface starts to establish nitrifying bacteria before the old, right side of the tank's gravel is removed. This prevents a mini-cycle from occurring, that (even though much/most? of the nitrifying bacteria reside in the filter) often will when all of the nitrifying bacteria on the surface of the gravel is removed all at once. > > For this same reason, and especially in a newly set up tank, it is highly recommended to vacuum only half of the tank each week, alternating sides every week -- to ensure that there is always at least half of the gravel's surface retaining a full complement of bacteria at any one time. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@> wrote: > > > > Out with the old! > > > > If I do a deep clean first, it shouldn't be a MAJOR mess. > > > > They're due for a deep cleaning in the next few days. Maybe I'll remove most of the gravel then. And then the rest won't hold quite as much of a mess for next time -- at which time I'll remove the rest and add the new. I don't want the two gravels to mix. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > > > You could always change just part of the gravel at a time. That's probably > > > what I'd do. If the old gravel has enough detritus in it, removing it all > > > without also removing the fish and the water will result in a major mess. > > > > > > > > > > > > You could also go for a partial color change, which could completely > > > brighten up your tank. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > > Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN > > > Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:17 PM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Replacing Gravel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > H Kai, > > > > > > I don't think anything will happen to seed your new gravel by soaking it in > > > old tank water-you would need it to be exposed to the cycled substrate for > > > the good bugs to transfer. You are better to simply rinse your new gravel > > > thoroughly under running tap water-drain well & then add it to your tank. > > > Keep some of your old gravel & use it to make up some sausages out of > > > pantyhose-put these back into the tank. These will have plenty of good bugs > > > in & will seed your new gravel in no time. The beauty of doing it that way > > > is once the new gravel is seeded you just remove the sausages. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 19 October 2011 22:55, kuradi8 <kuradi8@ > > > <mailto:kuradi8%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > I was going to do a "deep vacuum" of the gravel (which is something I do > > > on > > > > a regular basis) to remove all the detritus, which also lowers the water > > > > level in the process. (PWC) While the water was low, I was going to scoop > > > > out the old gravel and replace it with the new, then refill the tank. All > > > > with the fish in the tank -- no doubt cowering at the other end. :oP > > > > > > > > My question was whether or not "marinating" the new gravel in the bucket > > > > would create good nitrifying bacteria in there? Or would I run the risk of > > > > growing something bad instead? > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > , Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Okay most of your nitrifying bacteria is going to be in your HOB's and a > > > > > little on your decorations, so it's not as important to keep any of your > > > > > old gravel. I would recommend removing all the fish to a rubber-maid tub > > > > > or bucket while you're scooping out the gravel. > > > > > A very handy tip, use a colander for the scooping, as it will pick up > > > > > the gravel and let the water drain out. > > > > > You're going to have a messy tank after removing all your old gravel so > > > > > I would do a good water change and leave at least one HOB on the > > > > > bucket/tub with the fish while you let the other one run on the empty > > > > > tank to clean up any detritus floating in the water column from your > > > > > gravel. If you do a large water change and you had high nitrates or > > > > > something in the tank before the water change you'll probably want to > > > > > acclimate the fish back to this fresher water (especially if you go to 0 > > > > > nitrates from something like 40 nitrates, this can shock the fish and > > > > > cause health problems possibly even death in sensitive fish). > > > > > After the water clears up (after adding your new gravel and putting the > > > > > decorations back in) then move your fish back into the tank. > > > > > Sometimes removing gravel is such a chore, I've only done it once and > > > > > don't look forward to having to do it ever again ;) > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 1:30 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dual HOB. > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The first and most important question I need to ask before I give > > > any > > > > > > > answers: > > > > > > > What kind of filter do you use? > > > > > > > Under-gravel, HOB, Canister, etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10/19/2011 12:48 PM, kuradi8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I want to redecorate my tank by removing and then replacing the > > > old > > > > > > > > existing gravel for new more attractive gravel. Yes, the tank is > > > > > > > > active with Tin Foils, a Catfish and a Pl*co. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have rinsed the new gravel and have it "marinating" in a few > > > > > > gallons > > > > > > > > of tank water in a big bucket. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am I on the right track by doing so? Will that do anything > > > > > > beneficial? > > > > > > > > If so, how long should I let them soak? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or do I run a greater risk of creating a bio-hazard for once I > > > > remove > > > > > > > > the old and add the new? Should I just swap out the stones and do > > > > > > > > something different? ...Like daily (or every other day) PWCs > > > > instead > > > > > > > > of marinating? > > > > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52448	From: jasadell	Date: 11/1/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

You know, funny you should mention this. The outbreak id seem to coincide with the addition of new fish form a store that I have not purchased form before. Matter of fact one big Ruby Red died of unknown causes about a week after purchase (it was the first one that has ever died). So far as the ick, I noticed a little spot on a small Acei for a couple of days, then one day suddenly it looked like it had leprosy. I quickly removed it from the tank, but it occurred to me that fish had been rubbing themselves on the gravel here and there for a few days. I remember ick from my community tanks from days of old. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Maybe sometimes. I've gotten pet store fish that came down with it (or maybe bloomed) after I brought them home. If I'm not REALLY careful then it can get into other tanks and spread like wildfire, wiping out whole spawns of fry that were thriving up 'til then. It also kills EBJD's on contact, or so it seems. It's like just one spore and down they go in a week or so. So maybe there are more virulent strains that can cause a lot of problems if you aren't very careful about quarantine and sterilizing everything that goes from one tank to another. > > I do daily water changes on my fry tanks. Short of using RO water, their water is as close as it gets to perfect, they are underfed compared to many breeders, and they aren't stressed or suffering temperature fluctuations. > > So I say if your tanks are stable or you have baby fish, don't ever bring in a pet store fish. Even if it goes in a quarantine tank and you use separate equipment you can suffer heavy losses in your fry tanks. Well, that's been my last few weeks anyway. :( >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52449	From: Twoo Sd	Date: 11/1/2011
Subject: Hello everyone

Hello everyone   I am new here and would like to thanks yahoogroups.com for having me here. I'm Twoo . I really like this forum. Hope to learn everything about fish and to make fish friends. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52450	From: Ray	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Re: Hello everyone

Hello Twoo, welcome to the Group. Would you care to tell us something about your fish? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Twoo Sd <twoo250@...> wrote: > > Hello everyone >   > I am new here and would like to thanks yahoogroups.com for having me here. I'm Twoo . I really like this forum. Hope to learn everything about fish and to make fish friends. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52451	From: haecklers	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

I've read the ich sometimes gets on their gills primarily, where you can't see it. So they look fine but die, and it turns out they had ich. It's nice to have a very dark colored fish in the tank that the ich will show up well on, like a black female betta, bettas are very prone to ich and it shows really well on the dark ones. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > You know, funny you should mention this. The outbreak id seem to coincide with the addition of new fish form a store that I have not purchased form before. Matter of fact one big Ruby Red died of unknown causes about a week after purchase (it was the first one that has ever died). So far as the ick, I noticed a little spot on a small Acei for a couple of days, then one day suddenly it looked like it had leprosy. I quickly removed it from the tank, but it occurred to me that fish had been rubbing themselves on the gravel here and there for a few days. I remember ick from my community tanks from days of old. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > Maybe sometimes. I've gotten pet store fish that came down with it (or maybe bloomed) after I brought them home. If I'm not REALLY careful then it can get into other tanks and spread like wildfire, wiping out whole spawns of fry that were thriving up 'til then. It also kills EBJD's on contact, or so it seems. It's like just one spore and down they go in a week or so. So maybe there are more virulent strains that can cause a lot of problems if you aren't very careful about quarantine and sterilizing everything that goes from one tank to another. > > > > I do daily water changes on my fry tanks. Short of using RO water, their water is as close as it gets to perfect, they are underfed compared to many breeders, and they aren't stressed or suffering temperature fluctuations. > > > > So I say if your tanks are stable or you have baby fish, don't ever bring in a pet store fish. Even if it goes in a quarantine tank and you use separate equipment you can suffer heavy losses in your fry tanks. Well, that's been my last few weeks anyway. :( > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52452	From: harry perry	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Ray...... Your opinion.

I'm thinking it might be a good idea that we quarantine new fish and during that time treat for Ich whether we see it or not. What do you think?. Harry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52453	From: Ray	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Re: Ray...... Your opinion.

Harry, If your question was generated because of what Renate (Haecklers) wrote about the possibility of Ich attaching to the gills where it can't be seen, I'd agree with her, but unless the Ich were numerous on the gills I can't see how a fish could die from two or three cysts. And, if the Ich was more numerous, we'd then see at least a token one or two cysts on the body and/or fins (they wouldn't be confined just to the gills if there were any larger numbers of them). Always the best idea to quarantine new fish, but as for treating them for Ich whether seen or not, I would never medicate indiscriminately, just on a whim. Actually, I don't find it necessary to medicate for Ich anyway, since the heat treatment is just as effective and less stressful for many fish as opposed to them being treated with most Ich medications. This is not to say that 86 o is not stressful for some of those fish evolving in somewhat cooler water -- it can be (but clean, well oxygenated water will limit this). Subjecting fish to a higher than normal metabolism is much safer than subjecting them to toxic chemicals -- which essentially are what some medications are -- even though these chemicals/medications aren't generally toxic enough to fish to be lethal. I see some of these medications equating to a person taking a small dose of arsenic, which may not be enough to to kill them, but who needs it. Still, since Ich is easy enough to cure when it does occur, I don't see the necessity of automatically treating new fish for Ich with heat until it manifests itself. Most often, just as when fish have Ich on their bodies and they will flash against some object (or the substrate) in the aquarium -- to "scratch the itch" -- so will fish having Ich on their gills flash in an attempt to dislodge the annoying pathogen, and probably more so since the gills are more sensitive. If this behavior is seen, and especially if Ich may be suspected when seeing this behavior because of chilling enroute home, it then might be prudent to start an Ich treatment but not before, in my opinion. Even then, this behavior could be due to gill flukes; the fish's handling and possible receipt of stress known by the hobbyist in the interum between the LFS and home aquarium would be a deciding factor in whether the fish should be treated, along with its observation. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, harry perry <harryfisherman@...> wrote: > > I'm thinking it might be a good idea that we quarantine new fish and during that time treat for Ich whether we see it or not. What do you think?. > > Harry > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52454	From: jasadell	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: The cause ????? Re: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick

Or Aceis... It killed two of mine :( I'm hoping I have control of it now. We will see in a couple of days. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I've read the ich sometimes gets on their gills primarily, where you can't see it. So they look fine but die, and it turns out they had ich. It's nice to have a very dark colored fish in the tank that the ich will show up well on, like a black female betta, bettas are very prone to ich and it shows really well on the dark ones.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52455	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)

What kind of filter media would be best to start off my 60 gallon aquarium? I have a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 350 - if that helps anyway!Some of the filter media I've looked at online says its for canister filters, which I do not have. Wondering what will work best with the kind of filter I do have. Hoping to pick up some media tomorrow on my shopping trip. Thanks! Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52456	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/2/2011
Subject: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary adjustments. I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This is the starting point. My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at the wrong place, etc. I'll read the replies in the morning. Thanks! Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52457	From: Ray	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

A.P.I. Master Test Kit -- That Fish Place < thatfishplace.com > SALE -- $19.19 -- (regular $23.99) -- plus Ground Shipping $8.99 Flat Rate for as much as you order. Orders over $49 -- Free Shipping. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary adjustments. > > I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This is the starting point. > > My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. > > To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at the wrong place, etc. > > I'll read the replies in the morning. > > Thanks! > Desire' in LA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52458	From: haecklers	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

I've ordered things from amazon before. I got ripped off on ebay for some moss I ordered, but mostly those purchases were ok too. I have to say my favorite place to order items from now is www.kensfish.com - they often have prices lower than Amazon, especially if you factor in the shipping, which Amazon does not combine if it's from more than one seller. I've been hearing good things about the supplies at AngelsPlus lately, too. http://www.angelsplus.com I wish I was organized enough to make up a shopping list, I've been going back to Ken's every couple of weeks getting a couple more filters or heaters, etc. I run a lot of my tanks with sponge filters but the kind I got (Hagen) keep getting clogged and then the pumps die/peter out, so now I'm replacing them with the ATI ones and the better quality pumps. Whatever you buy, you may want a back up in case it fails and you may want to go for higher quality. Buying a new air pump every year gets a lot more expensive than paying 20% more at the outset for one that lasts longer, same thing for heaters. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary adjustments. > > I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This is the starting point. > > My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. > > To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at the wrong place, etc. > > I'll read the replies in the morning. > > Thanks! > Desire' in LA > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52459	From: Dora Smith	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

I've had very few problems ordering from Amazon. Use common sense. Look at their satisfaction ratings, and try to avoid ordering from people who are located overseas, particularly in southeast Asia. Petsmart, Petco, Marineland and others are excellent resources as well. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Desire' A. Heatherly Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 10:50 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary adjustments. I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This is the starting point. My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at the wrong place, etc. I'll read the replies in the morning. Thanks! Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52460	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!

I awoke this AM to find that my German Blue Ram pair has spawned again, second time for this pair. They have conveniently placed their eggs on the top of a flat rock I provided in the corner of the tank :-) Since the last spawn resulted in them eating 97% of their fry - I managed to save three, who are now growing out in my 20G long tank - should I remove these eggs and hatch them out in the 20 G long with a divider in place to keep the older rams and the baby plecs from eating them after they hatch? Oh, yes, forgot to mention that my albino longfin b/n plecs spawned again - I have 20 left from the orig spawn and 60+ of the younger fry in the 40G with the adults LOL Thoughts, please? Cheers, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52461	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)

Hi Desire', I don't have any personal experience with Bio Wheel type filters but I had a look at an example of your type on YouTube & it looks like you can put any media in the back compartments behind the wheels. The medias that I have experience with are regular nylon pot scrubbers [fantastic performance & value!!], plastic bio balls or ceramic chips & hoops. You can use any or all of these medias, perhaps one type in each compartment? All of them are almost indestructible so will last you forever & grow large colonies of good bugs. The ceramic chips usually go in canisters but would be equally good in yours. John*<o)))< * On 3 November 2011 03:58, Desire' A. Heatherly <mustanggirl83@...>wrote: > ** > > > What kind of filter media would be best to start off my 60 gallon > aquarium? I have a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 350 - if that > helps anyway!Some of the filter media I've looked at online says its for > canister filters, which I do not have. Wondering what will work best with > the kind of filter I do have. > > Hoping to pick up some media tomorrow on my shopping trip. > > Thanks! > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52462	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)

They used to make clam shell filter carts for the larger bio wheel filters, the 170 and the emporer bio wheel filters. I bought some old stock for my 170 bio wheel filters and used them a for a few years. Just putting filter floss to polish up the water. Worked great! I think with some nylon mesh and the regular filter cards and some creative thinking the same could be done. Of course as john said you can also fill the filter cart area with other kinds of media. a Media bag filled with Bio max or something similar would do the trick. example ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-PK-Hagen-AquaClear-Bio-Max-Mini-20-Biological-Filter-/200511867860?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eaf704bd4 ) I also used to use an eheim liberty filter which had a really high flow but the filter carts were kind of pricey so I jammed aqua clear sponge filters in the filter area and it worked ok. You can also put a sponge filter over the filter intake and that works pretty well. Reueable an prolongs a filter cart if you use them. Also give shrimp a good place to forage for food. The visual aspect can be a drawback for some, but careful decorating can cover that sometimes. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Nov 3, 2011 10:54 am Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon) Hi Desire', I don't have any personal experience with Bio Wheel type filters but I had a look at an example of your type on YouTube & it looks like you can put any media in the back compartments behind the wheels. The medias that I have experience with are regular nylon pot scrubbers [fantastic performance & value!!], plastic bio balls or ceramic chips & hoops. You can use any or all of these medias, perhaps one type in each compartment? All of them are almost indestructible so will last you forever & grow large colonies of good bugs. The ceramic chips usually go in canisters but would be equally good in yours. John*<o)))< * On 3 November 2011 03:58, Desire' A. Heatherly <mustanggirl83@...>wrote: > ** > > > What kind of filter media would be best to start off my 60 gallon > aquarium? I have a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 350 - if that > helps anyway!Some of the filter media I've looked at online says its for > canister filters, which I do not have. Wondering what will work best with > the kind of filter I do have. > > Hoping to pick up some media tomorrow on my shopping trip. > > Thanks! > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52463	From: Bill	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!

Clair, I made the mistake of leaving my free-swimmers in the tank ..Once I turned off the main lighting, leaving on a clamp-on light over the parents/swimmers, the whole tank attacked the brood.... I was since advised to pull 75-80% of the free-swimmers and set them up in a 10G with water from the "mother tank".... Since then, I've taken a temporary hiatus from Rams to concentrate on my Angels... But... will be looking to buy some of your babies anytime!... Oh.. and some pleco's!... I've got a 33L in the wings waiting to be set up just for the GBR's.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: cobra427lady <clare@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 11:19 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!   I awoke this AM to find that my German Blue Ram pair has spawned again, second time for this pair. They have conveniently placed their eggs on the top of a flat rock I provided in the corner of the tank :-) Since the last spawn resulted in them eating 97% of their fry - I managed to save three, who are now growing out in my 20G long tank - should I remove these eggs and hatch them out in the 20 G long with a divider in place to keep the older rams and the baby plecs from eating them after they hatch? Oh, yes, forgot to mention that my albino longfin b/n plecs spawned again - I have 20 left from the orig spawn and 60+ of the younger fry in the 40G with the adults LOL Thoughts, please? Cheers, Clare [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52464	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/3/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

At walmart.com you can get free shipping (site to store) and pick it up at your local walmart, usually their API master test kit is less than 20 dollars online. Amber On 11/3/2011 5:12 AM, Ray wrote: > > A.P.I. Master Test Kit -- That Fish Place < thatfishplace.com > SALE > -- $19.19 -- (regular $23.99) -- plus Ground Shipping $8.99 Flat Rate > for as much as you order. Orders over $49 -- Free Shipping. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water > quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am > busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary > adjustments. > > > > I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get > things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This > is the starting point. > > > > My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water > care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart > tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it > 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of > stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. > > > > To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to > order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's > aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at > the wrong place, etc. > > > > I'll read the replies in the morning. > > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52465	From: kwondrash	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Recommendations on UV sterilizers?

I've been considering getting a submersible UV sterilizer for my 30 gallon saltwater tank. My LFS has been suggesting the Green Killing machine. Does anyone here use this brand? Or is there another, reasonably priced one that you have had great results with? I'd like to go with a submersible style if posssible...

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52466	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com

I saw a testing kit at Walmart.com (the tetra one)...I forget now how much it was. Since the API one is the one that was recommended, I went ahead and bought that. Since I was at Petsmart yesterday anyway, I just picked one up so I know where to start with the aquarium. I will test it when I get home later this afternoon and share the numbers with the group. I found the Dr. Tim's on DrsFosterSmith's website (who I order from frequently) so I plan to make that order today as well. I will save the other URLs for future purchases- if needed- instead of Amazon. I would rather order from a fish/pet place for pet stuff anyway. I just didn't know if Amazon was a 'reliable' source for things like that. I know I hear a lot of negative about places like Ebay when it comes to ordering, for example, flea medication for dogs, so that's why I thought I'd ask about Amazon. You should expect to get an email from me this afternoon with test results from Elle's aquarium water. Then we can go from there. Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber Berglund To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2011 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Ordering fish supplies from Amazon.com At walmart.com you can get free shipping (site to store) and pick it up at your local walmart, usually their API master test kit is less than 20 dollars online. Amber On 11/3/2011 5:12 AM, Ray wrote: > > A.P.I. Master Test Kit -- That Fish Place < thatfishplace.com > SALE > -- $19.19 -- (regular $23.99) -- plus Ground Shipping $8.99 Flat Rate > for as much as you order. Orders over $49 -- Free Shipping. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Thanks for all the replies I received the other day regarding water > quality of my 60 gallon aquarium. I read through each of them and am > busy processing all the info and trying to make the necessary > adjustments. > > > > I put together a shopping list of things I am going to need to get > things on the ball. First is the master kit that was recommended. This > is the starting point. > > > > My question- is it safe to order the test kit and other fish water > care products from Amazon.com? I was going to get it at Petsmart > tomorrow (for $32.00) but saw that Amazon has it to where I can get it > 10 dollars less. I didn't know if it was 'safe' to buy that kind of > stuff from Amazon or not -and also the Dr. Tim's One and Only product. > Amazon has that too and I was going to include that in my order. > > > > To make it short for now as I was heading to bed, is it okay to > order from Amazon? I have made enough mistakes already with Elle's > aquarium and I don't want ot make anymore by getting my supplies at > the wrong place, etc. > > > > I'll read the replies in the morning. > > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52467	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!

Thanks, Bill. Yesterday after my discovery, I went to my LFS to see if they carried this new hatchery made by Marina that attaches to the parent tank and uses an external pump to filter H2O from it to the hatchery and they did....installed in in minutes and it's up and running - today I plan to move the rock with the eggs on it - I am counting the hours since discovery and I assume I will have wrigglers before day's end. My ram parents are young and this is only their second spawn and since they are guarding so well I figured I would give them a bit more time to "practice" their brooding behavior before I swipe the rock. There is nothing else in this tank with enough moxy to challenge them (1 halfbeak who is always at the surface, 3 celestial danios and a cory and they are all getting reminded to keep to one side of the tank). Anyway, my LFS guru said the free swimmer fry can stay in this hatchery for about 10 days and then I can move it over the the 20G long grow out tank and acclimate them into their own section with a divider to keep the bigger baby rams and plecs away. Now I am thinking about what to feed - I do not have the patience and consistency to do live baby brine shrimp - fed the others frozen bbs and they did okay after a loss at their smallest stage...I think I need smaller food at first & I also think the current in the grow out tank was too strong & have since modified it. What did you feed your fry at first? I am totally stoked about this spawning but have reached capacity with the plecs spawning too LOL. With a 115G, 40G, 20G and the 10G, all I seem to have time for is water changes and feeding LOL You are welcome to buy some of the babies but you will have to teach me how to ship - I haven't a clue! I look forward to more of your advice! Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Clair, I made the mistake of leaving my free-swimmers in the tank ..Once I turned off the main lighting, leaving on a clamp-on light over the parents/swimmers, the whole tank attacked the brood.... I was since advised to pull 75-80% of the free-swimmers and set them up in a 10G with water from the "mother tank".... Since then, I've taken a temporary hiatus from Rams to concentrate on my Angels... But... will be looking to buy some of your babies anytime!... Oh.. and some pleco's!... I've got a 33L in the wings waiting to be set up just for the GBR's.. Bill in Va.  > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52468	From: jasadell	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

This is another one of those things that one wishes they knew before purchasing fish/equipment. My heater (that I just purchased a couple of months ago) was not sized to bring my 55 gallon up to 86 o. It takes it to 80 o when it's maxed out. If I had known of this treatment beforehand I would have gotten a more powerful heater originally. As such, I opted to go the perhaps more risky of the two routes and used Ick medication instead. I have no scaleless fish, which seem to be the more affected by Ick meds. I did add salt, since that was around the house and sounds like it has benefits all around anyway. I lost two Aceis and a (brand new) Ruby Red, I assume from stress of the Ick, before I added the meds and got a handle on the outbreak. As of now, I don't see anymore affected fish, so it looks like the meds have done the trick. Note, though that I do agree with Ray in that meds should be avoided if possible. If I have another outbreak I intend to replace the heater with a more powerful one. A hospital tank (I see in a separate post) is another one of those things that I would consider to keep new fish in quarantine. It sure seems likely to me that I picked it up from the last additions to my tank. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52469	From: bill 1433	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

Hi JD, You did not say what size heater you have now but why wait for another out-break or problem? Get yourself and your fish, that new heater now and be ahead of the game. With winter and the colder months right around the corner why add to the problem? You might consider giving that old heater a new home in a smaller tank, set aside maybe for the quarantine of new fishes-------just a thought. bill in pa --- On Fri, 11/4/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > From: jasadell <jasadell@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: How to treat Ick > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 1:06 PM > This is another one of those things > that one wishes they knew before purchasing > fish/equipment.  My heater (that I just purchased a > couple of months ago) was not sized to bring my 55 gallon up > to 86 o.  It takes it to 80 o when it's maxed > out.  If I had known of this treatment beforehand I > would have gotten a more powerful heater originally.  > As such, I opted to go the perhaps more risky of the two > routes and used Ick medication instead.  I have no > scaleless fish, which seem to be the more affected by Ick > meds.  I did add salt, since that was around the house > and sounds like it has benefits all around anyway.  I > lost two Aceis and a (brand new) Ruby Red, I assume from > stress of the Ick, before I added the meds and got a handle > on the outbreak.  As of now, I don't see anymore > affected fish, so it looks like the meds have done the > trick.  Note, though that I do agree with Ray in that > meds should be avoided if possible.  If I have another > outbreak I intend to replace the heater with a more powerful > one.  A hospital tank (I see in a separate post) is > another one of those things that I would consider to keep > new fish in quarantine.  It sure seems likely to me > that I picked it up from the last additions to my tank. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if > possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less > than 86 o.  As not all thermometers are dead-on > accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o.  Then add one > tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without > an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher > salt.  Keep the temperature there until a full two days > after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which > time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to > about 10 days.  No medication is required as Ich cannot > reproduce above 86 o.  The salt promotes the secretion > of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the > Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin.  The > heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is > being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it > difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > Ray > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52470	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Nitrite - 5.0 ppm Ammonia - 0.25 ppm Nitrate - 5.0 ppm pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) High Range pH - 8.0 Thanks! Desire' in LA [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52471	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Recommendations on UV sterilizers?

Hi, I don't have any experience with that make or model but I have used a similar submersible unit in a hospital tank before & it was fine but I cannot say how it would perform in a permanent tank. Do you have any reason why you specifically want a submersible unit? The reason I ask is an external unit [just like a canister instead of an internal filter] gives your fish more swimming room in their tank & this is especially so in smaller tanks. The model I use on my 100 gallon is a TMC Vecton 600 & these are not cheap but in over 2 years of use I've not had any bacterial problems so I guess it is doing it's job. Several of my pond customers use the outdoor version by the same company & they do a great job of removing the suspended algae. John*<o)))< * On 4 November 2011 11:32, kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> wrote: > ** > > > I've been considering getting a submersible UV sterilizer for my 30 gallon > saltwater tank. My LFS has been suggesting the Green Killing machine. > Does anyone here use this brand? Or is there another, reasonably priced > one that you have had great results with? I'd like to go with a submersible > style if posssible... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52472	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

JD, Immediately upon reading your post here, and even before reading Bill's post asking what size your heater is, I too had in mind to ask you the size of your heater. So, I'm asking this of you now -- what size IS your heater? General applications of an aquarium heater in a room that isn't permitted to drop much more than what is most commonly recognized to be about the lowest temperature (68 o) that is still comfortable to us without having to put additional clothes on is 3 Watts per gallon to keep an aquarium of fish in their comfort range of 7.5 o above the surrounding temperature, meaning you need to have a heater of at least 150 Watts to maintain a temperature of about 76 o if you keep your room cool. Keeping your room nearer 72 o, will have your tank being able to be kept at very near 80 o with this same heater. To reach at least 86 o, you would need to use 6 Watts of heating capacity per gallon -- or 300 Watts, when keeping your room at 72 o. As 300 watts could overheat your aquarium if it were to stick on, you're best to use two 150 Watt heaters which couldn't cook your fish nor could chill your fish if either heater were to stick on or not function at all. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > This is another one of those things that one wishes they knew before purchasing fish/equipment. My heater (that I just purchased a couple of months ago) was not sized to bring my 55 gallon up to 86 o. It takes it to 80 o when it's maxed out. If I had known of this treatment beforehand I would have gotten a more powerful heater originally. As such, I opted to go the perhaps more risky of the two routes and used Ick medication instead. I have no scaleless fish, which seem to be the more affected by Ick meds. I did add salt, since that was around the house and sounds like it has benefits all around anyway. I lost two Aceis and a (brand new) Ruby Red, I assume from stress of the Ick, before I added the meds and got a handle on the outbreak. As of now, I don't see anymore affected fish, so it looks like the meds have done the trick. Note, though that I do agree with Ray in that meds should be avoided if possible. If I have another outbreak I intend to replace the heater with a more powerful one. A hospital tank (I see in a separate post) is another one of those things that I would consider to keep new fish in quarantine. It sure seems likely to me that I picked it up from the last additions to my tank. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Install an airstone (or increase the filter flow, if possible) in the tank and raise the temperature to no less than 86 o. As not all thermometers are dead-on accurate, it's best to raise it to 87 o. Then add one tablespoon per 5 gallons of table salt -- preferably without an anti-caking agent, such as Diamond Crystal Kosher salt. Keep the temperature there until a full two days after seeing the last sign of Ich on your fish, at which time gradually lower the temperature; this could take up to about 10 days. No medication is required as Ich cannot reproduce above 86 o. The salt promotes the secretion of a heavier mucous coating which makes it difficult for the Ich to gain a foothold onto the fish's skin. The heavier aeration/circulation insures the most oxygen is being absorbed at the water's surface, while again making it difficult for the Ich to find a host. > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52473	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Alas, My German Blue Rams...

... ate their eggs - dang it! Was thinking this AM before leaving for work whether or not I should transfer the rock with the eggs to the hatchery or not, but decided to wait til I had wrigglers, as the LFS guru suggested....would have been hatching time this evening. They are spawning every 4-6 weeks though, so next go round I am going to take the eggs away and aerate them and treat with methylene blue myself. Oh well, that's Mother Nature for ya! More soon..... Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52474	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Again!!!

Clare, As this "attached" tank appears to be a new concept -- at least to me -- I'd be leary about any pump system that might possibly have a stonger flow rate out of this hatchery than the fry could easily swim against. Too strong of a return current outflow could result in drawing the fry up against (or into?) the device collecting the water that goes back into the main tank. Not being familiar with this new hatchery fills me with concern for the fry the way it's described, although it may be perfectly fine. Still, I think it would be safer to put the fry right into the rearing tank to begin with, and not moving them after this 10 days (at which time they'd still be quite delicate to move). There's no need to use any separate "hatchery" tank that is not their rearing tank also. Also, your estimate of hatching time is way off. As you just saw the eggs only yesterday (11/3) morning, you couldn't have expected them to hatch until 11/6 -- if they didn't eat them -- as it takes 3 days for them to hatch. You would not have had wrigglers by the end of this day (11/4) -- if they survived -- but would have had to wait until Sunday. As your LFS "guru" has struck out twice now, I don't think I'd put too much credence in his "advice" anymore, but that's your call. You haven't said how large this hatchery tank is, but if it's not much more than a couple of gallons, there's the distinct chance that the fry wouldn't have last more than 3 days, let alone 10, if this filtering system does not provide adeqate water quality -- and I have to question that it can while still keeping water movement down to a safe level for fry. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Thanks, Bill. Yesterday after my discovery, I went to my LFS to see if they carried this new hatchery made by Marina that attaches to the parent tank and uses an external pump to filter H2O from it to the hatchery and they did....installed in in minutes and it's up and running - today I plan to move the rock with the eggs on it - I am counting the hours since discovery and I assume I will have wrigglers before day's end. My ram parents are young and this is only their second spawn and since they are guarding so well I figured I would give them a bit more time to "practice" their brooding behavior before I swipe the rock. There is nothing else in this tank with enough moxy to challenge them (1 halfbeak who is always at the surface, 3 celestial danios and a cory and they are all getting reminded to keep to one side of the tank). > > Anyway, my LFS guru said the free swimmer fry can stay in this hatchery for about 10 days and then I can move it over the the 20G long grow out tank and acclimate them into their own section with a divider to keep the bigger baby rams and plecs away. > > Now I am thinking about what to feed - I do not have the patience and consistency to do live baby brine shrimp - fed the others frozen bbs and they did okay after a loss at their smallest stage...I think I need smaller food at first & I also think the current in the grow out tank was too strong & have since modified it. What did you feed your fry at first? > > I am totally stoked about this spawning but have reached capacity with the plecs spawning too LOL. With a 115G, 40G, 20G and the 10G, all I seem to have time for is water changes and feeding LOL You are welcome to buy some of the babies but you will have to teach me how to ship - I haven't a clue! > > I look forward to more of your advice! > > Clare > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Clair, I made the mistake of leaving my free-swimmers in the tank ..Once I turned off the main lighting, leaving on a clamp-on light over the parents/swimmers, the whole tank attacked the brood.... I was since advised to pull 75-80% of the free-swimmers and set them up in a 10G with water from the "mother tank".... Since then, I've taken a temporary hiatus from Rams to concentrate on my Angels... But... will be looking to buy some of your babies anytime!... Oh.. and some pleco's!... I've got a 33L in the wings waiting to be set up just for the GBR's.. Bill in Va.  > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52475	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Hi Desire' Thanks for letting us know your readings for Elle's tank. Firstly just to make it clear about the pH tests-ordinarily I don't think the regular one is any use for Carps as it doesn't read high enough so just use the high range test in future. A pH reading of 8 may be considered high for Koi but if that is what your getting without adding anything then fine-the most important thing about pH is to always keep it stable. I also got a reading of 8 for my water & my fish have always been fine. When a tank cycles [ie the eco system starts up] there are 3 toxins that get produced by the fish waste in this order: 1. Ammonia, 2.Nitrite, 3. Nitrate. Ammonia & nitrite are killers if kept unchecked for any length of time so both of these need to be reading zero as soon as possible. Luckily the good bacteria that builds up in your filters & gravel breaks down ammonia & nitrite into far less harmful nitrate. The nitrate is still toxic over 40 but far less so & only bad for your fish in a long term chronic situation. The nitrate is easily controlled by regular & large partial water changes. Just now everything seems to be getting started & your high ammonia & nitrite show that your filter has not yet got enough good bugs to deal with everything. All you need to do is a large-perhaps 50% water change daily until both read zero. The ammonia looks like it has already spiked & is dropping off while the nitrite is coming up. 5 is really high nitrite so do an immediate partial water change, if you change out for example 50% of your water then you are effectively halving any toxins in it. Have a look at this page about the nitrate cycle, don't worry if it seems a little technical-the graph says it all really!: http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html John*<o)))< * On 4 November 2011 20:35, Desire' A. Heatherly <mustanggirl83@...>wrote: > ** > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this > particular test) > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > Thanks! > > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52476	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Alas, My German Blue Rams...

Saw this message while typing my previous one to you, as part of moderating and approving it for posting. Sorry to see that the parent fish ate the eggs, but it shows this LFS guru is not that all-knowing. Next time, go with your intuition and move the eggs. BTW, always replace the spawning rock with another similar rock. Oh, and Acriflavin is so much better than Methylene Blue in preventing egg fungus; you should try it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > ... ate their eggs - dang it! Was thinking this AM before leaving for work whether or not I should transfer the rock with the eggs to the hatchery or not, but decided to wait til I had wrigglers, as the LFS guru suggested....would have been hatching time this evening. > > They are spawning every 4-6 weeks though, so next go round I am going to take the eggs away and aerate them and treat with methylene blue myself. Oh well, that's Mother Nature for ya! > > More soon..... > > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52477	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

John had very good advice so far, I just wanted to add one more thing. While you're testing water also test your tap water. Get yourself at least a gallon bucket/jar and fill it up, then put in your dechlor product (if you use it, if you have well water then you probably won't need to use dechlorinator). Test the water with all your tests just like you did your fish tank, then leave the water sitting (somewhere safe where pets/kids cannot get into it) and test again in 24 hours, then again in another 24 hours. This will give you your tapwater baseline tests, very useful if your tapwater has nitrates or anything in it before adding it to your tank, also tells you if your pH changes over time from straight out of the tap. Mine changes very little so it's safe for me to do large water changes, but if your tap water varies quite a bit from your tank parameters then you'll want to do smaller water changes (more often) to get your ammonia and nitrites down to zero like John suggested (which is a VERY good idea as these can start to poison your Koi and easily kill her in a short amount of time). Amber On 11/4/2011 5:44 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Desire' > > Thanks for letting us know your readings for Elle's tank. Firstly just to > make it clear about the pH tests-ordinarily I don't think the regular one > is any use for Carps as it doesn't read high enough so just use the high > range test in future. A pH reading of 8 may be considered high for Koi but > if that is what your getting without adding anything then fine-the most > important thing about pH is to always keep it stable. I also got a reading > of 8 for my water & my fish have always been fine. > > When a tank cycles [ie the eco system starts up] there are 3 toxins that > get produced by the fish waste in this order: 1. Ammonia, 2.Nitrite, 3. > Nitrate. Ammonia & nitrite are killers if kept unchecked for any length of > time so both of these need to be reading zero as soon as possible. Luckily > the good bacteria that builds up in your filters & gravel breaks down > ammonia & nitrite into far less harmful nitrate. The nitrate is still > toxic > over 40 but far less so & only bad for your fish in a long term chronic > situation. The nitrate is easily controlled by regular & large partial > water changes. > > Just now everything seems to be getting started & your high ammonia & > nitrite show that your filter has not yet got enough good bugs to deal > with > everything. All you need to do is a large-perhaps 50% water change daily > until both read zero. The ammonia looks like it has already spiked & is > dropping off while the nitrite is coming up. 5 is really high nitrite > so do > an immediate partial water change, if you change out for example 50% of > your water then you are effectively halving any toxins in it. > > Have a look at this page about the nitrate cycle, don't worry if it > seems a > little technical-the graph says it all really!: > http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 4 November 2011 20:35, Desire' A. Heatherly > <mustanggirl83@... <mailto:mustanggirl83%40mobiletel.com>>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this > > particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52478	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga

I'm actually very curious about this hatchery myself. Clare do you have a model/brand name for us to look up? I'm interested in it for my Angelfish (possibly). So far I still have 5-7 fry left, but I'd be more excited if there was more that had made it. I'm not sure if mom is eating them (considering how protective she is I'd doubt it though, she beats all the other fish up and even kills the platy's now and then). But the fry are getting bigger, I have mostly koi angelfish babies, but a few look like mom (altum? wild coloring) hopefully I have some veil-tail ones like mom too. Amber On 11/4/2011 6:01 PM, Ray wrote: > > Clare, > > As this "attached" tank appears to be a new concept -- at least to me > -- I'd be leary about any pump system that might possibly have a > stonger flow rate out of this hatchery than the fry could easily swim > against. Too strong of a return current outflow could result in > drawing the fry up against (or into?) the device collecting the water > that goes back into the main tank. Not being familiar with this new > hatchery fills me with concern for the fry the way it's described, > although it may be perfectly fine. Still, I think it would be safer to > put the fry right into the rearing tank to begin with, and not moving > them after this 10 days (at which time they'd still be quite delicate > to move). There's no need to use any separate "hatchery" tank that is > not their rearing tank also. > > Also, your estimate of hatching time is way off. As you just saw the > eggs only yesterday (11/3) morning, you couldn't have expected them to > hatch until 11/6 -- if they didn't eat them -- as it takes 3 days for > them to hatch. You would not have had wrigglers by the end of this day > (11/4) -- if they survived -- but would have had to wait until Sunday. > > As your LFS "guru" has struck out twice now, I don't think I'd put too > much credence in his "advice" anymore, but that's your call. > > You haven't said how large this hatchery tank is, but if it's not much > more than a couple of gallons, there's the distinct chance that the > fry wouldn't have last more than 3 days, let alone 10, if this > filtering system does not provide adeqate water quality -- and I have > to question that it can while still keeping water movement down to a > safe level for fry. > > Ray > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52479	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Okay, so I'm gathering that I FIRST need to check my tap and if the results are about the same as my aquarium (How long do I wait before I start to do a water change after I check my tap water), then I can go ahead with the large water change daily until my readings show up zero? But if its way off, then I need to do small water changes daily? I'll be getting the Dr. Tim's One and Only product in a few days. Will this make a difference for the nitrite and ammonia level? I didn't really think the ammonia level was 'that bad'. THe highest on the chart read 8.0 ppm and mine was 0.25. I thought that meant hardly any ammonia was present? If I'm way off, please forgive. I'm trying to understand all this and do it the right way. Now that I know more than what I did just 2 weeks ago, I feel really bad for subjecting my koi to the stress she must be dealing with. Is it normal for her to staycloser to the bottom during the day and at night I notice she stays at the top of the water? I'm used to her being in the pond and not seeing her hour to hour swimming patterns like I am starting to observe now that she's inside. I just hope I'm not missing any kind of signs that she's ill or anything. And in order for her to eat, I have to be either in bed sleeping (lights out) or out of the room (sometimes lights out and sometimes its on) and she will eat. I know koi tend to like to have a place to 'hide out' and her aquarium is kind of sparsely decorated at this time. One more question...when you refer to the declorinator, would Seachem's Prime water conditioner be the same thing? It removes chloramine, chlorine, and ammona- and now typing that all out, I guess I answered my own question. Duh! So tomorrow morning I will do the tap water test and I have to wait a few days ....in the meanwhile, no water changes until the tap water testing is complete? That way I will know whether I have to do a small water change or I can do a large one, correct? About the water change, I wait until the water is room temp before adding it to the tank...(Would a pond thermometer be okay to use to check the temp?) What do I do with all the water in the meanwhile? I am not sure where I would put it. I have a one gallon bucket I can use and also a 3 gallon aquarium bucket. I don't have any Rubbermaid containers that I haven't already cleaned with chemicals that I could use. I would hate to use that and it harm the water. Also when do you add the Prime water conditioner? Do I add it before I put the fresh water from the water change or do I put it after I put all the water back? I used to add the water (from the hose) in my pond and then add the water conditioner- but I was also very new to keeping fish, so maybe I did that wrong? Sorry for all the questions..I'd rather ask the questions and risk sounding 'dumb' than do something to the water in Elle's tank and it end up harming her. I feel bad enough already for not knowing enough before bringing her inside- or better yet, before purchasing her. I know feeling bad though won't help her. Trying to be proactive here and try to remedy the situation without making it worse. I know for some a fish is just a fish, but I would hate for her to die due to my inexperience. I'm a huge pet lover with 3 dogs, 2 parrots and a rabbit - in addition to Elle. I've had fish in the past and never truly learned how to properly care for them. I'm trying to change that because I've come to truly enjoy having fish since I got Elle and her old friend Jonah who unfortunately had died. Once I get this tank cycled properly and ensure that Elle will be fine and is healthy, I want to get a buddy for her. Part of what I consider a bit weird behavior with her could be because she needs a friend. Anyway, sorry for writing a book here. Its hard for me to shut up sometimes, haha. I really appreciate everyone's advice and help! It means a lot to me. Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber Berglund To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Test Results for Elle's Aquarium John had very good advice so far, I just wanted to add one more thing. While you're testing water also test your tap water. Get yourself at least a gallon bucket/jar and fill it up, then put in your dechlor product (if you use it, if you have well water then you probably won't need to use dechlorinator). Test the water with all your tests just like you did your fish tank, then leave the water sitting (somewhere safe where pets/kids cannot get into it) and test again in 24 hours, then again in another 24 hours. This will give you your tapwater baseline tests, very useful if your tapwater has nitrates or anything in it before adding it to your tank, also tells you if your pH changes over time from straight out of the tap. Mine changes very little so it's safe for me to do large water changes, but if your tap water varies quite a bit from your tank parameters then you'll want to do smaller water changes (more often) to get your ammonia and nitrites down to zero like John suggested (which is a VERY good idea as these can start to poison your Koi and easily kill her in a short amount of time). Amber On 11/4/2011 5:44 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Desire' > > Thanks for letting us know your readings for Elle's tank. Firstly just to > make it clear about the pH tests-ordinarily I don't think the regular one > is any use for Carps as it doesn't read high enough so just use the high > range test in future. A pH reading of 8 may be considered high for Koi but > if that is what your getting without adding anything then fine-the most > important thing about pH is to always keep it stable. I also got a reading > of 8 for my water & my fish have always been fine. > > When a tank cycles [ie the eco system starts up] there are 3 toxins that > get produced by the fish waste in this order: 1. Ammonia, 2.Nitrite, 3. > Nitrate. Ammonia & nitrite are killers if kept unchecked for any length of > time so both of these need to be reading zero as soon as possible. Luckily > the good bacteria that builds up in your filters & gravel breaks down > ammonia & nitrite into far less harmful nitrate. The nitrate is still > toxic > over 40 but far less so & only bad for your fish in a long term chronic > situation. The nitrate is easily controlled by regular & large partial > water changes. > > Just now everything seems to be getting started & your high ammonia & > nitrite show that your filter has not yet got enough good bugs to deal > with > everything. All you need to do is a large-perhaps 50% water change daily > until both read zero. The ammonia looks like it has already spiked & is > dropping off while the nitrite is coming up. 5 is really high nitrite > so do > an immediate partial water change, if you change out for example 50% of > your water then you are effectively halving any toxins in it. > > Have a look at this page about the nitrate cycle, don't worry if it > seems a > little technical-the graph says it all really!: > http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 4 November 2011 20:35, Desire' A. Heatherly > <mustanggirl83@... <mailto:mustanggirl83%40mobiletel.com>>wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this > > particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52480	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

You can do a smaller PWC now, I just don't recommend a 50% PWC (not yet at least until I see your tap water baseline). If you've never done a water change that large yet then you won't know how it will affect your Koi, and since you don't know your tap water baseline then you also don't know if your pH varies by more than .2, or if there are nitrates/etc in your tapwater. Doing such a large water change can be dangerous if you don't know your tap water parameters. So I don't recommend one without knowing them, just to be safe. But YES definitely do a 20-25% water change (this should be safe enough to not change your tank parameters too much and still lower your ammonia and nitrites). You'll want to do at least one, preferably two water changes but not back to back. Wait an hour (at the least) between water changes to let your Koi adjust to the new changes in the tank water. As soon as you get the Dr. Tim's one and only this should instantly cycle your tank, make sure you test your water a few hours or even the next day after adding the product to make sure it was still good. If your weather (or any weather along the way) happens to freeze the Dr. Tim's product it can quickly kill the nitrifying bacteria and it won't work when you add it to the tank. If you contact Dr. Tim directly on his website he will usually re-ship you another bottle for free (he has in the past for people on this forum, he's a member by the way). After you add this to your tank you should quickly see your nitrites and ammonia lower down to zero, I'm not sure how long it takes but I can't imagine it would take more than 24 hours to work properly (probably much less than that). I'm not as good with the 'what level ammonia and nitrites become toxic' (Ray knows more about this than I do), but it is based on your pH level, the higher your pH the LESS ammonia and nitrites it takes to kill your fish. So if you had a pH of 6 your ammonia levels could get higher before they would kill fish in a tank with a pH of 8. Hopefully that makes sense, I'm tired. LOL. When you add your tap water to your fish tank you normally either put the dechlor in the bucket directly with the water when you first fill up the bucket. Or if you get tired of carrying that bucket around you might want to consider a Python hose water changer (which I HIGHLY recommend for large fish tanks as it makes doing water changes much easier and faster, and they are usually less than 30 dollars with all the attachments). I also recommend getting the brass sink attachment as the plastic one that comes with the hose tends to wear out and break after a few months of use. If you use one of these python water changers then you'd just put the dechlor product (in your case: Prime) directly into your fish tank, then start adding the water. Letting the water warm up to room temperature is just fine to do, I use a python hose for my water changes, so I use a thermometer to check the tap water temps and match them within 2 degrees difference (at the most). Also never be shy about asking a lot of questions, this is how we learn! :) I myself like to ask lots of questions so I tend to have lengthy posts at times ;) LOL. Amber On 11/4/2011 6:53 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > Okay, so I'm gathering that I FIRST need to check my tap and if the > results are about the same as my aquarium (How long do I wait before I > start to do a water change after I check my tap water), then I can go > ahead with the large water change daily until my readings show up > zero? But if its way off, then I need to do small water changes daily? > > I'll be getting the Dr. Tim's One and Only product in a few days. Will > this make a difference for the nitrite and ammonia level? I didn't > really think the ammonia level was 'that bad'. THe highest on the > chart read 8.0 ppm and mine was 0.25. I thought that meant hardly any > ammonia was present? If I'm way off, please forgive. I'm trying to > understand all this and do it the right way. > > Now that I know more than what I did just 2 weeks ago, I feel really > bad for subjecting my koi to the stress she must be dealing with. Is > it normal for her to staycloser to the bottom during the day and at > night I notice she stays at the top of the water? I'm used to her > being in the pond and not seeing her hour to hour swimming patterns > like I am starting to observe now that she's inside. I just hope I'm > not missing any kind of signs that she's ill or anything. And in order > for her to eat, I have to be either in bed sleeping (lights out) or > out of the room (sometimes lights out and sometimes its on) and she > will eat. I know koi tend to like to have a place to 'hide out' and > her aquarium is kind of sparsely decorated at this time. > > One more question...when you refer to the declorinator, would > Seachem's Prime water conditioner be the same thing? It removes > chloramine, chlorine, and ammona- and now typing that all out, I guess > I answered my own question. Duh! So tomorrow morning I will do the tap > water test and I have to wait a few days ....in the meanwhile, no > water changes until the tap water testing is complete? That way I will > know whether I have to do a small water change or I can do a large > one, correct? > > About the water change, I wait until the water is room temp before > adding it to the tank...(Would a pond thermometer be okay to use to > check the temp?) What do I do with all the water in the meanwhile? I > am not sure where I would put it. I have a one gallon bucket I can use > and also a 3 gallon aquarium bucket. I don't have any Rubbermaid > containers that I haven't already cleaned with chemicals that I could > use. I would hate to use that and it harm the water. Also when do you > add the Prime water conditioner? Do I add it before I put the fresh > water from the water change or do I put it after I put all the water > back? I used to add the water (from the hose) in my pond and then add > the water conditioner- but I was also very new to keeping fish, so > maybe I did that wrong? > > Sorry for all the questions..I'd rather ask the questions and risk > sounding 'dumb' than do something to the water in Elle's tank and it > end up harming her. I feel bad enough already for not knowing enough > before bringing her inside- or better yet, before purchasing her. I > know feeling bad though won't help her. Trying to be proactive here > and try to remedy the situation without making it worse. I know for > some a fish is just a fish, but I would hate for her to die due to my > inexperience. I'm a huge pet lover with 3 dogs, 2 parrots and a rabbit > - in addition to Elle. I've had fish in the past and never truly > learned how to properly care for them. I'm trying to change that > because I've come to truly enjoy having fish since I got Elle and her > old friend Jonah who unfortunately had died. Once I get this tank > cycled properly and ensure that Elle will be fine and is healthy, I > want to get a buddy for her. Part of what I consider a bit weird > behavior with her could be because she needs a friend. > > Anyway, sorry for writing a book here. Its hard for me to shut up > sometimes, haha. > > I really appreciate everyone's advice and help! It means a lot to me. > > Desire' in LA > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Amber Berglund > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 9:14 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > John had very good advice so far, I just wanted to add one more thing. > While you're testing water also test your tap water. Get yourself at > least a gallon bucket/jar and fill it up, then put in your dechlor > product (if you use it, if you have well water then you probably won't > need to use dechlorinator). > Test the water with all your tests just like you did your fish tank, > then leave the water sitting (somewhere safe where pets/kids cannot get > into it) and test again in 24 hours, then again in another 24 hours. > This will give you your tapwater baseline tests, very useful if your > tapwater has nitrates or anything in it before adding it to your tank, > also tells you if your pH changes over time from straight out of the > tap. Mine changes very little so it's safe for me to do large water > changes, but if your tap water varies quite a bit from your tank > parameters then you'll want to do smaller water changes (more often) to > get your ammonia and nitrites down to zero like John suggested (which is > a VERY good idea as these can start to poison your Koi and easily kill > her in a short amount of time). > > Amber > > On 11/4/2011 5:44 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Hi Desire' > > > > Thanks for letting us know your readings for Elle's tank. Firstly > just to > > make it clear about the pH tests-ordinarily I don't think the > regular one > > is any use for Carps as it doesn't read high enough so just use the high > > range test in future. A pH reading of 8 may be considered high for > Koi but > > if that is what your getting without adding anything then fine-the most > > important thing about pH is to always keep it stable. I also got a > reading > > of 8 for my water & my fish have always been fine. > > > > When a tank cycles [ie the eco system starts up] there are 3 toxins that > > get produced by the fish waste in this order: 1. Ammonia, 2.Nitrite, 3. > > Nitrate. Ammonia & nitrite are killers if kept unchecked for any > length of > > time so both of these need to be reading zero as soon as possible. > Luckily > > the good bacteria that builds up in your filters & gravel breaks down > > ammonia & nitrite into far less harmful nitrate. The nitrate is still > > toxic > > over 40 but far less so & only bad for your fish in a long term chronic > > situation. The nitrate is easily controlled by regular & large partial > > water changes. > > > > Just now everything seems to be getting started & your high ammonia & > > nitrite show that your filter has not yet got enough good bugs to deal > > with > > everything. All you need to do is a large-perhaps 50% water change daily > > until both read zero. The ammonia looks like it has already spiked & is > > dropping off while the nitrite is coming up. 5 is really high nitrite > > so do > > an immediate partial water change, if you change out for example 50% of > > your water then you are effectively halving any toxins in it. > > > > Have a look at this page about the nitrate cycle, don't worry if it > > seems a > > little technical-the graph says it all really!: > > http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-cycling.html > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 4 November 2011 20:35, Desire' A. Heatherly > > <mustanggirl83@... <mailto:mustanggirl83%40mobiletel.com> > <mailto:mustanggirl83%40mobiletel.com>>wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this > > > particular test) > > > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52481	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish

So today I stopped by my LFS to purchase a few Julii cory cats that they got in a couple weeks ago and while I was there the owner practically tackled me and shoved a free 10 gallon tank with UG filter/heater/hood/light/gravel into my arms. He wouldn't let me leave the store without it. Even though I told him I already have 7 fish tanks in my house right now. LOL. Hubby went to climb into the front seat where I set the 10 gallon tank and stared at it and went, "Uh huh" in that knowing, 'what did I tell you?' voice. LOL. Good thing we don't have a dog house to put me in ;) The 3 julii cory cats are doing great so far. I put them in my new 29 gallon I got from the LFS last week. I moved all of my cory cats to that tank so it's kind of a species tank mostly. I like watching all the different cory's interact together. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52482	From: pam andress	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish

Good for you Amber! Pam So today I stopped by my LFS to purchase a few Julii cory cats that they got in a couple weeks ago and while I was there the owner practically tackled me and shoved a free 10 gallon tank with UG filter/heater/hood/light/gravel into my arms. He wouldn't let me leave the store without it. Even though I told him I already have 7 fish tanks in my house right now. LOL. Hubby went to climb into the front seat where I set the 10 gallon tank and stared at it and went, "Uh huh" in that knowing, 'what did I tell you?' voice. LOL. Good thing we don't have a dog house to put me in ;) The 3 julii cory cats are doing great so far. I put them in my new 29 gallon I got from the LFS last week. I moved all of my cory cats to that tank so it's kind of a species tank mostly. I like watching all the different cory's interact together. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52483	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish

Thanks Pam :) On a side note the BN pleco's I got from you quite awhile ago are now breeding me out of tanks, LOL. And this time I have albino babies :) I'm so excited to see some albino's this time around, the last batch of babies were all brown. I'm planning to keep a couple of albino females and put them in my other tanks, in case I want to breed 2 albino's together in the future. But so far my LFS buys them from me for a dollar each, which is just great. Helps me afford some of the food at least ;) I need to buy stock in algae wafers ;) LOL Amber On 11/4/2011 7:24 PM, pam andress wrote: > Good for you Amber! > Pam > > > > So today I stopped by my LFS to purchase a few Julii cory cats that they > > got in a couple weeks ago and while I was there the owner practically > > tackled me and shoved a free 10 gallon tank with UG > > filter/heater/hood/light/gravel into my arms. He wouldn't let me leave > > the store without it. Even though I told him I already have 7 fish tanks > > in my house right now. LOL. > > Hubby went to climb into the front seat where I set the 10 gallon tank > > and stared at it and went, "Uh huh" in that knowing, 'what did I tell > > you?' voice. LOL. > > Good thing we don't have a dog house to put me in ;) > > The 3 julii cory cats are doing great so far. I put them in my new 29 > > gallon I got from the LFS last week. I moved all of my cory cats to that > > tank so it's kind of a species tank mostly. I like watching all the > > different cory's interact together. > > > > Amber > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52484	From: pam andress	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish

Congrats on the albinos! You are lucky they pay that much for them and you are not the only one that needs stock in wafers. Pam Thanks Pam :) On a side note the BN pleco's I got from you quite awhile ago are now breeding me out of tanks, LOL. And this time I have albino babies :) I'm so excited to see some albino's this time around, the last batch of babies were all brown. I'm planning to keep a couple of albino females and put them in my other tanks, in case I want to breed 2 albino's together in the future. But so far my LFS buys them from me for a dollar each, which is just great. Helps me afford some of the food at least ;) I need to buy stock in algae wafers ;) LOL Amber On 11/4/2011 7:24 PM, pam andress wrote: > Good for you Amber! > Pam > > > > So today I stopped by my LFS to purchase a few Julii cory cats that they > > got in a couple weeks ago and while I was there the owner practically > > tackled me and shoved a free 10 gallon tank with UG > > filter/heater/hood/light/gravel into my arms. He wouldn't let me leave > > the store without it. Even though I told him I already have 7 fish tanks > > in my house right now. LOL. > > Hubby went to climb into the front seat where I set the 10 gallon tank > > and stared at it and went, "Uh huh" in that knowing, 'what did I tell > > you?' voice. LOL. > > Good thing we don't have a dog house to put me in ;) > > The 3 julii cory cats are doing great so far. I put them in my new 29 > > gallon I got from the LFS last week. I moved all of my cory cats to that > > tank so it's kind of a species tank mostly. I like watching all the > > different cory's interact together. > > > > Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52485	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Desire', With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52486	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) Amber On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > up and release oxygen. > > Ray > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52487	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Desire', With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > Thanks! > > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52488	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

I will check her water temp in the am. I don't know why but the thermometer I stuck on the outside of her aquarium does not have any numbers lighting up? I will use her pond thermometer in the morning. I assume that would still give an accurate temp? ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber Berglund To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) Amber On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > up and release oxygen. > > Ray > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52489	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Hi Amber, You were on the right track. Both are toxic in sufficient numbers of ppm, but Nitrite is more toxic than Ammonia. The pH and to a lesser degree, the temperature have a lot to do with it. Fortunately, in subsequent posts by Desire', it looks like Elle is not sick nor suffered any toxic effects -- unless Desire' added salt early, when recommended, and this reversed Elle's condition if she did receive some toxicity. I'm glad to see this Koi is eating. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity > compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets > more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) > > Amber > > On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > Desire', > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > > well at pH 8.0. > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > > directions on the label. > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > > Blue, labeled as such. > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > > up and release oxygen. > > > > Ray > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52490	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52491	From: Ray	Date: 11/4/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

I've sometimes found those stick-on thermometer strips not to work, or to work but not last long in continuing to do so. Sure, the pond thermometer should be very accurate. Just allow sufficient time to get a proper reading if the thermometer is within a plastic insulating case. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I will check her water temp in the am. I don't know why but the thermometer I stuck on the outside of her aquarium does not have any numbers lighting up? I will use her pond thermometer in the morning. I assume that would still give an accurate temp? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Amber Berglund > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:47 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity > compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets > more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) > > Amber > > On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > Desire', > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > > well at pH 8.0. > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > > directions on the label. > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > > Blue, labeled as such. > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > > up and release oxygen. > > > > Ray > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52492	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Six Days Off Grid

With 7 fish tanks operating: 125G Two 75G 38G 20G Two 10G NJ had snow last Saturday with leaves still on the trees. The extra weight of the wet snow retained by the leaves caused huge trees and limbs to break off and bring down wires with them worse than I have ever seen. No power for six days with freezing temps at night. Luckily I have a generator. It will not run the whole house and you can't run it 24/7, but it handles heat, fridge, fish tanks (LOL), well and some lights. No stove, we had to use the Coleman, LOL. We ran the generator 2 hours on, 4-6 hours off throughout. I can tell you better in a month (we are on ich watch) but I think this is a success story. The small tanks could not retain heat and I am still trying to get one 10G to warm up slowly enough (heater does not go that low). I highly recommend a generator if you have a serious fish addiction. : ) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52493	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

I was doing some reading online about Elle's behavior and I think she is what aquatic folks call flashing. She has been scratching at the gravel as if searching for more food. Could this be a parasite? And could that methylene blue stuff treat this? from what I have read, once you have the proper stuff to treat it, it doesn't take thath long to do so. She had been doing this a few days and I should have thought this wasn't right. Ugh Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52494	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Hi Desire' That's a strange situation her only eating when you are not around-did she do the same thing in the pond? You mentioned that her decor was sparse, perhaps adding something to stimulate her interest might help? How much does she move around when you are observing her & does she always seem to hang out at the same place unless disturbed? You are right that she needs a buddy as soon as possible once the tank is stabilized, the interaction between these fish is the best therapy because they love to hang out in groups. How big is Elle? If you would prefer then a larger Goldfish would be just as good as another Koi because they will all interact the same. John*<o)))< * On 5 November 2011 05:01, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > I've sometimes found those stick-on thermometer strips not to work, or to > work but not last long in continuing to do so. Sure, the pond thermometer > should be very accurate. Just allow sufficient time to get a proper reading > if the thermometer is within a plastic insulating case. > > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > I will check her water temp in the am. I don't know why but the > thermometer I stuck on the outside of her aquarium does not have any > numbers lighting up? I will use her pond thermometer in the morning. I > assume that would still give an accurate temp? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Amber Berglund > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:47 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > > > > > Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity > > compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets > > more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) > > > > Amber > > > > On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Desire', > > > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > > > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > > > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > > > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > > > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > > > well at pH 8.0. > > > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > > > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > > > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > > > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > > > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > > > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > > > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > > > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > > > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > > > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > > > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > > > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > > > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > > > directions on the label. > > > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > > > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > > > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > > > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > > > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > > > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > > > Blue, labeled as such. > > > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > > > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > > > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > > > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > > > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > > > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > > > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > > > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > > > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > > > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > > > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > > > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > > > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > > > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > > > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > > > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > > > up and release oxygen. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52495	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Six Days Off Grid

Hi Donna, Glad to hear you have everything under control-that's some serious weather! In the UK we are still walking round in T shirts but I understand snow has been promised before Christmas. In case of emergencies I got myself a small power converter a couple of years ago. It hooks up to the battery on my Jeep & supplies enough power for a couple of electrical appliances so acts like a small generator but luckily I have not yet had to use it. John*<o)))< * On 5 November 2011 09:59, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > ** > > > With 7 fish tanks operating: > 125G > Two 75G > 38G > 20G > Two 10G > > NJ had snow last Saturday with leaves still on the trees. The extra weight > of the wet snow retained by the leaves caused huge trees and limbs to break > off and bring down wires with them worse than I have ever seen. No power > for six days with freezing temps at night. > > Luckily I have a generator. It will not run the whole house and you can't > run it 24/7, but it handles heat, fridge, fish tanks (LOL), well and some > lights. No stove, we had to use the Coleman, LOL. > > We ran the generator 2 hours on, 4-6 hours off throughout. I can tell you > better in a month (we are on ich watch) but I think this is a success > story. > The small tanks could not retain heat and I am still trying to get one 10G > to warm up slowly enough (heater does not go that low). > > I highly recommend a generator if you have a serious fish addiction. : ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52496	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Without actually having the benefit of being able to see this behavior first-hand, I can only say that this sounds possibly as though she's scratching because of parasites, although I can't make that decision just by this description. But you're correct, this behavior isn't right. You would see Ich on the fish, if it were present, as small salt-like white spots on the body and fins -- If this were Ich. It could just be that Elle has contracted flukes in one form or another which could have been present from the time you first bought her, but which may be manifesting itself only now that she is being stressed. Koi, and pond fish in general are noted for getting flukes. Methylene Blue is too mild to eradicate flukes. There are formalin based medications on the market which would take care of this. One in particular is made by Tetra (Pond Care) and is called "Formaline." It's a three-treatment medication to be used over a period of 5 days. The first day, you use it a half-strength. Then on day 3 and day 5, you use it at full strength. NOTE: DO NOT USE WITH SALT. The Jungle Labs company makes a medication called "(Pond) Parasite Guard," which is also very effective against both gill flukes and body flukes (two different but related pathogens). Note, this is not the same as Jungle's Internal Parasite Guard for aquarium use, nor should it be confused with Jungle's Fungus Guard. You may need to buy it (or "Formalin") from a Watergarden supply house if you can't find it at your LFS (local fish store). It will eradicate snails though, so remove any before treatment. Do a 25% PWC before treatment and allolw 6 days between treatments. Remove any carbon in your filter. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I was doing some reading online about Elle's behavior and I think she is what aquatic folks call flashing. She has been scratching at the gravel as if searching for more food. Could this be a parasite? And could that methylene blue stuff treat this? from what I have read, once you have the proper stuff to treat it, it doesn't take that long to do so. She had been doing this a few days and I should have thought this wasn't right. Ugh > > Desire' in LA > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > > > > > Desire', > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52497	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Six Days Off Grid

We are back in T-shirts today. 7 inches of snow in October was a first. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 8:53 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Six Days Off Grid Hi Donna, Glad to hear you have everything under control-that's some serious weather! In the UK we are still walking round in T shirts but I understand snow has been promised before Christmas. In case of emergencies I got myself a small power converter a couple of years ago. It hooks up to the battery on my Jeep & supplies enough power for a couple of electrical appliances so acts like a small generator but luckily I have not yet had to use it. John*<o)))< * On 5 November 2011 09:59, Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> > wrote: > ** > > > With 7 fish tanks operating: > 125G > Two 75G > 38G > 20G > Two 10G > > NJ had snow last Saturday with leaves still on the trees. The extra weight > of the wet snow retained by the leaves caused huge trees and limbs to break > off and bring down wires with them worse than I have ever seen. No power > for six days with freezing temps at night. > > Luckily I have a generator. It will not run the whole house and you can't > run it 24/7, but it handles heat, fridge, fish tanks (LOL), well and some > lights. No stove, we had to use the Coleman, LOL. > > We ran the generator 2 hours on, 4-6 hours off throughout. I can tell you > better in a month (we are on ich watch) but I think this is a success > story. > The small tanks could not retain heat and I am still trying to get one 10G > to warm up slowly enough (heater does not go that low). > > I highly recommend a generator if you have a serious fish addiction. : ) > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52498	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Hi Desire', If your tap water doesn't show any signs of ammonia or nitrite, you can start making PWC's immediately. If the tap water shows ammonia (which it most probably will from the chloramine additive) in an amount lower than your 0.25 ppm tank water reading, the "Prime" water conditioner which I suggested will render it harmless by converting it to the ammonium form. Yes, the Dr Tim's One and Only will make a big difference in a very few days. Do not add it yet if you need to treat for parasites, but instead store it in the refrigerator until the water is changed out after treatment. Your 0.25 ppm ammonia level IS NOT that bad to be toxic to Elle, but any amount of ammonia is stressful. Fortunately, the level is low enough not to cause excessive stress. With this ammonia, you should be using Prime even if you haven't done a PWC yet, as it will always oxidize this waste product, making it harmless. As I said previously, at pH 8, your ammonia is still very safe (up until 81 o), but if you're wrong about the pH and it's 8.2, this ammonia will become toxic to Elle at 76 o. Again -- Prime will prevent any stress-related issues of ammonia regardless of temperature or pH. Koi are bottom fish and the behavior you indicate of her hanging at the top during the night is out of the ordinary. Then too, so is her feeding behavior, but that she is eating is always a promising sign. If you don't see any Ich, I'm suspecting flukes if she continues to flash. Keep an eye on her, the flashing in not normal if it persists (or if it gets more prevalent). SeaChem's "Prime" IS WHAT YOU WANT. When doing the tap water test, you will need to wait a few days to get the proper pH reading -- BUT, the readings for ammonia and nitrite are what you will get immediately upon testing for them. No need for waiting any length of time for their results as that aren't going to change. With a pH of 8.0 in your tank -- unless you have gravel in there which may have elements in it that are raising your pH -- a pH that high would indicate that if your tap water is going to be any different than your tank water, that there wouldn't be very much of a difference. A pH being more towards neutral however, could result in a larger pH change over this two day period. If your tap water pH is even fairly close right now, I would suggest making PWC's immediately as your nitrite is WAY too high for comfort. You need to start getting rid of it now. As I said -- a pond thermometer is perfectly fine to use. You just may need to wait longer to get a proper reading, depending how (or if) it's encased. When doing PWC's, you add the Prime directly to the tank just before adding the new water. Three or four gallon though, will not do much of a PWC; four gallons will result only in a 6.7% water change for your 60 gallon tank. Since youy need to make much larger water changes, and since you don't have any more water storage containers, you'll need to add the water directly from the tap -- by first regulating the amounts of cold and hot water until the water comes out of the hose at the tank's temperature. Best of luck and keep us informed. Ray </HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52499	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

No, when she was in her pond, she'd come to the top to eat, even if I was there. I noticed I couldn't have my hand by the food on top of the pond water- she was skittish of that. But I was able to watch from the side of the pond most of the time. She doesn't stay in one place...she has been swimming all over. Elle is about 9-10 inches. ----- Original Message ----- From: SIMMONDS JOHN To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Hi Desire' That's a strange situation her only eating when you are not around-did she do the same thing in the pond? You mentioned that her decor was sparse, perhaps adding something to stimulate her interest might help? How much does she move around when you are observing her & does she always seem to hang out at the same place unless disturbed? You are right that she needs a buddy as soon as possible once the tank is stabilized, the interaction between these fish is the best therapy because they love to hang out in groups. How big is Elle? If you would prefer then a larger Goldfish would be just as good as another Koi because they will all interact the same. John*<o)))< * On 5 November 2011 05:01, Ray <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > ** > > > I've sometimes found those stick-on thermometer strips not to work, or to > work but not last long in continuing to do so. Sure, the pond thermometer > should be very accurate. Just allow sufficient time to get a proper reading > if the thermometer is within a plastic insulating case. > > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > I will check her water temp in the am. I don't know why but the > thermometer I stuck on the outside of her aquarium does not have any > numbers lighting up? I will use her pond thermometer in the morning. I > assume that would still give an accurate temp? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Amber Berglund > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:47 PM > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > > > > > Glad you chimed in Ray, I wasn't sure about Nitrite's level of toxicity > > compared to pH and looks like I was wrong. But I knew that ammonia gets > > more toxic the higher the pH level is. I guess I was half right ;) > > > > Amber > > > > On 11/4/2011 7:39 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Desire', > > > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water > > > changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than > > > ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level > > > isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- > > > especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do > > > well at pH 8.0. > > > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 > > > o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your > > > 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to > > > reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm > > > Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping > > > Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her > > > tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess > > > nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for > > > this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add > > > one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For > > > Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and > > > while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue > > > in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the > > > directions on the label. > > > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is > > > indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average > > > of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to > > > continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. > > > You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding > > > when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene > > > Blue, labeled as such. > > > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, > > > as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands > > > now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far > > > from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in > > > the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the > > > bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. > > > For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the > > > tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and > > > then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- > > > all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the > > > Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to > > > Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood > > > being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the > > > ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. > > > Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin > > > (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick > > > up and release oxygen. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52500	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

I am in the middle of a 20 percent water change and planned to do another in about 2 hours - and test the water...Amber had recommended this yesterday in one of her emails. I hadn't did any water changes at all to the aquarium prior to this and I know I should have (busyness isn't a good excuse, I know..), which is why I took Amber's recomendation to do a small change for now until I know more about my tap water test. I will be doing that in a little bit. It says to add 5 ML per 50 gallons (Prime). Do I add this or for the amount of water I am adding back in (12 gallons)?? HOw much would that be? Just over 1 ml? Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: sevenspringss@... To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 9:29 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Hi Desire', If your tap water doesn't show any signs of ammonia or nitrite, you can start making PWC's immediately. If the tap water shows ammonia (which it most probably will from the chloramine additive) in an amount lower than your 0.25 ppm tank water reading, the "Prime" water conditioner which I suggested will render it harmless by converting it to the ammonium form. Yes, the Dr Tim's One and Only will make a big difference in a very few days. Do not add it yet if you need to treat for parasites, but instead store it in the refrigerator until the water is changed out after treatment. Your 0.25 ppm ammonia level IS NOT that bad to be toxic to Elle, but any amount of ammonia is stressful. Fortunately, the level is low enough not to cause excessive stress. With this ammonia, you should be using Prime even if you haven't done a PWC yet, as it will always oxidize this waste product, making it harmless. As I said previously, at pH 8, your ammonia is still very safe (up until 81 o), but if you're wrong about the pH and it's 8.2, this ammonia will become toxic to Elle at 76 o. Again -- Prime will prevent any stress-related issues of ammonia regardless of temperature or pH. Koi are bottom fish and the behavior you indicate of her hanging at the top during the night is out of the ordinary. Then too, so is her feeding behavior, but that she is eating is always a promising sign. If you don't see any Ich, I'm suspecting flukes if she continues to flash. Keep an eye on her, the flashing in not normal if it persists (or if it gets more prevalent). SeaChem's "Prime" IS WHAT YOU WANT. When doing the tap water test, you will need to wait a few days to get the proper pH reading -- BUT, the readings for ammonia and nitrite are what you will get immediately upon testing for them. No need for waiting any length of time for their results as that aren't going to change. With a pH of 8.0 in your tank -- unless you have gravel in there which may have elements in it that are raising your pH -- a pH that high would indicate that if your tap water is going to be any different than your tank water, that there wouldn't be very much of a difference. A pH being more towards neutral however, could result in a larger pH change over this two day period. If your tap water pH is even fairly close right now, I would suggest making PWC's immediately as your nitrite is WAY too high for comfort. You need to start getting rid of it now. As I said -- a pond thermometer is perfectly fine to use. You just may need to wait longer to get a proper reading, depending how (or if) it's encased. When doing PWC's, you add the Prime directly to the tank just before adding the new water. Three or four gallon though, will not do much of a PWC; four gallons will result only in a 6.7% water change for your 60 gallon tank. Since youy need to make much larger water changes, and since you don't have any more water storage containers, you'll need to add the water directly from the tap -- by first regulating the amounts of cold and hot water until the water comes out of the hose at the tank's temperature. Best of luck and keep us informed. Ray </HTML> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52501	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Her water temp IS 76. :-( But I assume having done the PWC (20 percent until I Know proper pH from tap water test) and adding prime, this will help make the ammonia that is present, less toxic? ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52502	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

How do you keep the water temp lower? I didn't know it could altered and how you would do it. The pH was 8.0 so if I'm understanding correctly, it is not toxic yet like I thought in the previous email I just sent. Sorry for any repeats. I'm suffering from info overload right now. Its just a lot to process and act upon and knowing I have to do something, I can't just sit on the info too long. Its about as clear as mud right now, lol, but I'm trying to get a better understanding. Desire' ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Desire', > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52503	From: Bill	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)

I'd go with floss... does a great job at trapping particulates.. plus grows the bio's.  Bill  ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 11:34 AM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Filter media to start out my tank (60 gallon)   Hi Desire', I don't have any personal experience with Bio Wheel type filters but I had a look at an example of your type on YouTube & it looks like you can put any media in the back compartments behind the wheels. The medias that I have experience with are regular nylon pot scrubbers [fantastic performance & value!!], plastic bio balls or ceramic chips & hoops. You can use any or all of these medias, perhaps one type in each compartment? All of them are almost indestructible so will last you forever & grow large colonies of good bugs. The ceramic chips usually go in canisters but would be equally good in yours. John*<o)))< * On 3 November 2011 03:58, Desire' A. Heatherly <mustanggirl83@...>wrote: > ** > > > What kind of filter media would be best to start off my 60 gallon > aquarium? I have a Marineland Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 350 - if that > helps anyway!Some of the filter media I've looked at online says its for > canister filters, which I do not have. Wondering what will work best with > the kind of filter I do have. > > Hoping to pick up some media tomorrow on my shopping trip. > > Thanks! > Desire' in LA > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52504	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Ram Babies!!!!

Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) Cheers, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52505	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?

Thought ya'll might like to see some pictures of Elle and her 60 gallon winter set up (minus decorations- I just finished the water change when this pic was taken). I examined her as best as I could and I do not see (with my untrained eye) anything that looks 'like salt' or anything that could suggest she has ich. And since her food is disappearing (though its when I'm not around), I don't suspect brown blood syndrome. The flashing continues though although sine I'm not in the same room with her for long periods of the day, I don't know how much she does it when I'm not around, but I find she does it pretty often when I'm in the room. Since I don't know for sure that it isn't ich (since I don't see any spots), it could also be what Ray said- fluke. Would that cause her to flash? Is that also a parasite type disease? I thought only they did that if they had ich. Is there something that could treat either or the other? I have been searching for the Formalin that was recommended and I can't seem to find it online. My local 'fish stores' are Petco and Petsmart. I didn't see it on either websites, so its not likely they carry it in their stores. I sent a pic of each side of Elle....I don't know if you could tell from pics if she has ich (without seeing her in person) but I thought I'd give it a shot. I'd hate to mis-disagnose her and treat her for the wrong thing. And I want to make sure she's parasite free before I put the live bacteria in her tank (it won't arrive until next Friday). But with the way she's acting with the flashing, SOMETHING is up and likely a parasite- just don't know what kind! I think her fins and body look just the same and I see no changes in it- just in the way she's behaving. ANyway, let me know if you can see anything I'm not seeing by the pictures. Thanks again! Desire' in Louisiana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52506	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga

Hi, Amber: Here is the link to the hatchery I talked about: http://www.kensfish.com/product3709.html I am pretty impressed with it and you can adjust water flow over the fry to gently circulate current.....I hope to get a chance to use it soon - alas, my rams ate their eggs yesterday :-( Next time I will take the eggs and put them in the hatchery with a gentle bubbler & some methylene blue to control fungus until they hatch (40 or so hours after laying as I have read) & not rely on the parents. I read somewhere online that since many of these rams are captive bred and breeders take the eggs to increase yield (like I am thinking of doing) that they are breeding the parenting brains right out of them - but that's another thread LOL Good luck with your Angel fish fry!! Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > I'm actually very curious about this hatchery myself. > Clare do you have a model/brand name for us to look up? I'm interested > in it for my Angelfish (possibly). So far I still have 5-7 fry left, but > I'd be more excited if there was more that had made it. I'm not sure if > mom is eating them (considering how protective she is I'd doubt it > though, she beats all the other fish up and even kills the platy's now > and then). But the fry are getting bigger, I have mostly koi angelfish > babies, but a few look like mom (altum? wild coloring) hopefully I have > some veil-tail ones like mom too. > > Amber > > On 11/4/2011 6:01 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > Clare, > > > > As this "attached" tank appears to be a new concept -- at least to me > > -- I'd be leary about any pump system that might possibly have a > > stonger flow rate out of this hatchery than the fry could easily swim > > against. Too strong of a return current outflow could result in > > drawing the fry up against (or into?) the device collecting the water > > that goes back into the main tank. Not being familiar with this new > > hatchery fills me with concern for the fry the way it's described, > > although it may be perfectly fine. Still, I think it would be safer to > > put the fry right into the rearing tank to begin with, and not moving > > them after this 10 days (at which time they'd still be quite delicate > > to move). There's no need to use any separate "hatchery" tank that is > > not their rearing tank also. > > > > Also, your estimate of hatching time is way off. As you just saw the > > eggs only yesterday (11/3) morning, you couldn't have expected them to > > hatch until 11/6 -- if they didn't eat them -- as it takes 3 days for > > them to hatch. You would not have had wrigglers by the end of this day > > (11/4) -- if they survived -- but would have had to wait until Sunday. > > > > As your LFS "guru" has struck out twice now, I don't think I'd put too > > much credence in his "advice" anymore, but that's your call. > > > > You haven't said how large this hatchery tank is, but if it's not much > > more than a couple of gallons, there's the distinct chance that the > > fry wouldn't have last more than 3 days, let alone 10, if this > > filtering system does not provide adeqate water quality -- and I have > > to question that it can while still keeping water movement down to a > > safe level for fry. > > > > Ray > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52507	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. Best of luck in raising them! Ray (Moderator) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > Cheers, > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52508	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga

I'm glad to see that the water flow can be adjusted; I had not seen that in the link you provided (and I looked for it), but it's good to know. I do see that it's only 1/2 gallon, which is fine when used as it was designed for -- as a breeding box for livebearers, to catch their fry in without them being born in the main aquarium. The livebearer fry are then transferred to a rearing tank of their own (they're not raised in the 1/2 gallon box). As livebearer fry are so o o much bigger than Dwarf Cichlid fry at first, they would be able to take a bit stronger water flow. I am hoping that the flow can be reduced enough for your idea of using it for Ram fry, although I do have my doubts on this being familar with both sizes of fry. Again, Methylene Blue is not the best funguscide. I don't understand why a bubbler weould be needed if there's a water flow constantly passing by them -- and the water flow can't be shut off as then there won't be any heat in the breeder box (since it's outside of the main tank and depends on the flow for heat). Thanks for supply the link to Kensfish; I know him well. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, Amber: > > Here is the link to the hatchery I talked about: > > http://www.kensfish.com/product3709.html > > I am pretty impressed with it and you can adjust water flow over the fry to gently circulate current.....I hope to get a chance to use it soon - alas, my rams ate their eggs yesterday :-( > > Next time I will take the eggs and put them in the hatchery with a gentle bubbler & some methylene blue to control fungus until they hatch (40 or so hours after laying as I have read) & not rely on the parents. I read somewhere online that since many of these rams are captive bred and breeders take the eggs to increase yield (like I am thinking of doing) that they are breeding the parenting brains right out of them - but that's another thread LOL > > Good luck with your Angel fish fry!! > > Cheers, > Clare > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > I'm actually very curious about this hatchery myself. > > Clare do you have a model/brand name for us to look up? I'm interested > > in it for my Angelfish (possibly). So far I still have 5-7 fry left, but > > I'd be more excited if there was more that had made it. I'm not sure if > > mom is eating them (considering how protective she is I'd doubt it > > though, she beats all the other fish up and even kills the platy's now > > and then). But the fry are getting bigger, I have mostly koi angelfish > > babies, but a few look like mom (altum? wild coloring) hopefully I have > > some veil-tail ones like mom too. > > > > Amber > > > > On 11/4/2011 6:01 PM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Clare, > > > > > > As this "attached" tank appears to be a new concept -- at least to me > > > -- I'd be leary about any pump system that might possibly have a > > > stonger flow rate out of this hatchery than the fry could easily swim > > > against. Too strong of a return current outflow could result in > > > drawing the fry up against (or into?) the device collecting the water > > > that goes back into the main tank. Not being familiar with this new > > > hatchery fills me with concern for the fry the way it's described, > > > although it may be perfectly fine. Still, I think it would be safer to > > > put the fry right into the rearing tank to begin with, and not moving > > > them after this 10 days (at which time they'd still be quite delicate > > > to move). There's no need to use any separate "hatchery" tank that is > > > not their rearing tank also. > > > > > > Also, your estimate of hatching time is way off. As you just saw the > > > eggs only yesterday (11/3) morning, you couldn't have expected them to > > > hatch until 11/6 -- if they didn't eat them -- as it takes 3 days for > > > them to hatch. You would not have had wrigglers by the end of this day > > > (11/4) -- if they survived -- but would have had to wait until Sunday. > > > > > > As your LFS "guru" has struck out twice now, I don't think I'd put too > > > much credence in his "advice" anymore, but that's your call. > > > > > > You haven't said how large this hatchery tank is, but if it's not much > > > more than a couple of gallons, there's the distinct chance that the > > > fry wouldn't have last more than 3 days, let alone 10, if this > > > filtering system does not provide adeqate water quality -- and I have > > > to question that it can while still keeping water movement down to a > > > safe level for fry. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52509	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

76 o is really too high for Koi as they're a cold-water fish. Ideally, while they can tolerate 76 o (and higher) for short periods, they do best sat 68 o maximum. The tank water's temperature is directly dependant upon the room temperature. Looks like you're keeping her room too warm for her. Is there another room that's cooler, where her tank could be moved to? Adding Prime will certainly help. It will make the ammonia practically NON-toxic. The issue of the higher temperature -- besides being above the normal temperature range of this fish -- is that all chemicals behave more actively at higher temperatures and here I'm concerned about your nitrite having a more adverse effect on Elle. Keep making those PWC's to get rid of as much of that nitrite as you can. If she needs to be treated for parasites, she won't have the immediate benefit of the Dr Tim's One and Only until after the treatment. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Her water temp IS 76. :-( But I assume having done the PWC (20 percent until I Know proper pH from tap water test) and adding prime, this will help make the ammonia that is present, less toxic? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > > > > > Desire', > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52510	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Add the amount of Prime for the water you are removing, not the total tank size. But in your case with the extra ammonia in your tank; adding a little extra won't harm Elle, just don't go TOO overboard with it ;) Amber On 11/5/2011 6:51 AM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > I am in the middle of a 20 percent water change and planned to do > another in about 2 hours - and test the water...Amber had recommended > this yesterday in one of her emails. I hadn't did any water changes at > all to the aquarium prior to this and I know I should have (busyness > isn't a good excuse, I know..), which is why I took Amber's > recomendation to do a small change for now until I know more about my > tap water test. I will be doing that in a little bit. > > It says to add 5 ML per 50 gallons (Prime). Do I add this or for the > amount of water I am adding back in (12 gallons)?? HOw much would that > be? Just over 1 ml? > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52511	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?

Did you post pictures on the group website? I don't see them anywhere, so I'm thinking perhaps you might have attached them to your email? If so yahoo groups doesn't allow attachments, you'll have to post them on the group site for us to see them. Amber On 11/5/2011 11:28 AM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > Thought ya'll might like to see some pictures of Elle and her 60 > gallon winter set up (minus decorations- I just finished the water > change when this pic was taken). > > I examined her as best as I could and I do not see (with my untrained > eye) anything that looks 'like salt' or anything that could suggest > she has ich. And since her food is disappearing (though its when I'm > not around), I don't suspect brown blood syndrome. The flashing > continues though although sine I'm not in the same room with her for > long periods of the day, I don't know how much she does it when I'm > not around, but I find she does it pretty often when I'm in the room. > > Since I don't know for sure that it isn't ich (since I don't see any > spots), it could also be what Ray said- fluke. Would that cause her to > flash? Is that also a parasite type disease? I thought only they did > that if they had ich. Is there something that could treat either or > the other? I have been searching for the Formalin that was recommended > and I can't seem to find it online. My local 'fish stores' are Petco > and Petsmart. I didn't see it on either websites, so its not likely > they carry it in their stores. > > I sent a pic of each side of Elle....I don't know if you could tell > from pics if she has ich (without seeing her in person) but I thought > I'd give it a shot. I'd hate to mis-disagnose her and treat her for > the wrong thing. And I want to make sure she's parasite free before I > put the live bacteria in her tank (it won't arrive until next Friday). > But with the way she's acting with the flashing, SOMETHING is up and > likely a parasite- just don't know what kind! I think her fins and > body look just the same and I see no changes in it- just in the way > she's behaving. ANyway, let me know if you can see anything I'm not > seeing by the pictures. > > Thanks again! > Desire' in Louisiana > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52512	From: Ray	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium

Elle's tank is in a room that is too warm. The only practical way to lower her water temperature is to move the tank to a cooler room. There are "chillers" on the market which act the same as a small refigerator, but they're not cheap -- so I couldn't call this practical. There are no other ways to alter the water temperature, except for adding frozen bottles of water to the tank. On hot Summer days, some hobbyists aim a fan on the water's surface, which can lower the temperature by a couple of degrees, but this wouldn't serve your purpose. No, at 76 o and at pH 8.0, the 0.25 ammonia would not be toxic (although it still would be stressful). Again, the Prime will practically eliminate any toxicity and will eliminate the stress from ammonia. While there's a lot to digest in understanding all that was posted, please feel free to ASK ANYTHING you need clarified. I'll try to explain anything in simpler forms if I can. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > How do you keep the water temp lower? I didn't know it could altered and how you would do it. The pH was 8.0 so if I'm understanding correctly, it is not toxic yet like I thought in the previous email I just sent. > > Sorry for any repeats. I'm suffering from info overload right now. Its just a lot to process and act upon and knowing I have to do something, I can't just sit on the info too long. Its about as clear as mud right now, lol, but I'm trying to get a better understanding. > > Desire' > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 11:55 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > Good to see this. Now, all's you need to do is concentrate on lowering the organic wastes (mainly, the Ammonia and Nitrite) by PWC's and continue with cycling. If you're going to add Dr Tim's One & Only, this should help a lot. Don't do any PWC's after adding this product, for at least 48 hours (preferably longer, if the parameters don't rise). After a very short time, other than normal weekly maintenance PWC's will become unnecessary as that high Nitrite will be greatly reduced by the established cycle. Still keep an eye on them though, by testing. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Elle DOES eat...but when I'm not around. When I'm not around she will eat all her pond sticks. When I'm around, she doesn't want to eat. If I feed her before I go to bed, or an hour or so before I get up in the morning, her food is gone. So by this, I assume that she IS eating. > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 10:39 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Test Results for Elle's Aquarium > > > > > > > > Desire', > > > > With those parameters, I would start making PWC's (partial water changes) to reduce the high Nitrite. Nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, but fortunately because your pH is 8.0, this nitrite level isn't lethal. Nitrite becomes more toxic as the pH decreases -- especially into the acid range. Do not adjust your pH. Koi will do well at pH 8.0. > > > > Please give us the temperature of Elle's tank. It needn't be above 68 o for her best comfort. If you're absolutely sure your pH is 8.0, your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will not become toxic until the temperature were to reach 81 o. But, if the pH in reality is 8.2, then your 0.25 ppm Ammonia will start to become toxic at 76 o. I trust you're keeping Elle's water far below this temperature. > > > > If Elle is still not eating with the PWC's I hope you're giving her tank, she may have developed Brown Blood Syndrome from the excess nitrite. If her appetite is not improving you'll need to treat her for this condition with Methylene Blue. At this same time, you should add one teaspoon of salt per gallon -- or 60 teaspoon in your case. For Nitrite poisoning however, while the token amount of salt helps (and while salt will prevent Ammonia poisoning), it is the Methylene Blue in this case that's needed to be added to the aquarium. Just go by the directions on the label. > > > > Again, IF Elle is not eating, Brown Blood Syndrome (which is indicative of this if her lack of appetite persists)) takes an average of at least two weeks to cure. During this time, you'll need to continuing making adequate PWC's to keep the Nitrite level down. You'll also need to replace any Methylene Blue that you're discarding when making water changes. BTW, I believe Kordon still makes Methylene Blue, labeled as such. > > > > During this time, you won't be able to use the Dr Tim's One and Only, as this medication will kill the nitrifying bacteria. As it stands now, your nitrifying bacteria were just getting establish (but far from being completed). Your low Nitrate reading (of only 5.0 ppm) in the face of the high Nitrite reading (of 5.0 ppm) shows that the bacteria acting to convert this Nitrite is still at a very low level. For the time being, until Elle is eating again, you'll need to rid the tank of excessive organic waste products manually, via PWC's -- and then use Dr Tim's One and Only after removing the Methylene Blue -- all dependent upon Elle's eating. Keep us posted on her appetite. > > > > FYI, Brown Blood Syndrome occurs when excessive Nitrite converts the Hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) in the fish's red blood cells to Methemoglobin (iron-carrying protein). Unlike the iron in normal blood being ferrous (Fe2+) and being able to release bound oxygen, the ferric (Fe3+) state of Methemoglobin cannot release this oxygen. Methylene Blue transforms Methemoglobin to Oxyhemoglobin (oxygen-carrying protein) enabling the red blood cells to again pick up and release oxygen. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > > > > > > Nitrate - 5.0 ppm > > > > > > pH - 7.6 (well, this was the highest that the range went for this particular test) > > > > > > High Range pH - 8.0 > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Desire' in LA > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52513	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?

Oh, sorry..I had attached them to my email. I went on the group's site and added an album "Elle the koi in Louisiana". waiting for it to be approved. Desire' in LA ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber Berglund To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2011 3:41 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Elle - pics & possible parasite ? Did you post pictures on the group website? I don't see them anywhere, so I'm thinking perhaps you might have attached them to your email? If so yahoo groups doesn't allow attachments, you'll have to post them on the group site for us to see them. Amber On 11/5/2011 11:28 AM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > Thought ya'll might like to see some pictures of Elle and her 60 > gallon winter set up (minus decorations- I just finished the water > change when this pic was taken). > > I examined her as best as I could and I do not see (with my untrained > eye) anything that looks 'like salt' or anything that could suggest > she has ich. And since her food is disappearing (though its when I'm > not around), I don't suspect brown blood syndrome. The flashing > continues though although sine I'm not in the same room with her for > long periods of the day, I don't know how much she does it when I'm > not around, but I find she does it pretty often when I'm in the room. > > Since I don't know for sure that it isn't ich (since I don't see any > spots), it could also be what Ray said- fluke. Would that cause her to > flash? Is that also a parasite type disease? I thought only they did > that if they had ich. Is there something that could treat either or > the other? I have been searching for the Formalin that was recommended > and I can't seem to find it online. My local 'fish stores' are Petco > and Petsmart. I didn't see it on either websites, so its not likely > they carry it in their stores. > > I sent a pic of each side of Elle....I don't know if you could tell > from pics if she has ich (without seeing her in person) but I thought > I'd give it a shot. I'd hate to mis-disagnose her and treat her for > the wrong thing. And I want to make sure she's parasite free before I > put the live bacteria in her tank (it won't arrive until next Friday). > But with the way she's acting with the flashing, SOMETHING is up and > likely a parasite- just don't know what kind! I think her fins and > body look just the same and I see no changes in it- just in the way > she's behaving. ANyway, let me know if you can see anything I'm not > seeing by the pictures. > > Thanks again! > Desire' in Louisiana > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52514	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Another fish tank! Eek and new julii cory catfish

So the 10 gallon tank I got for free yesterday has an Under Gravel filter already set up in it. Should I just throw it away or is it worth actually using along with a HOB filter? I'm not sure what I'd put in the tank other than a betta. Right now it's empty and sitting on the floor out of the way until I figure out if I'm going to use it or keep it as another spare hospital tank. I'm toying with the idea of buying some cherry shrimp and using this tank, but I don't think they'd do well with UG filters... they seem to prefer planted tanks, and UG filters don't work well with plants. Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52515	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Hi, Ray: Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > Best of luck in raising them! > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52516	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Saturday's Test Results for Both Aquarium (after 2 PWC) and Tap wate

Tap water baseline: Ammonia - 0.25 ppm Nitrite - 0.50 ppm Nitrate - 0 ppm pH - 7.6 High pH- 7.4 Water testing after 20 percent PWC: Ammonia - 0.25 ppm Nitrite - 5.0 ppm Nitrate - 10 ppm pH- 7.6 (but that is the highest number the pH test tests..its darker than the color for 7.6) High Range pH- 7.8 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52517	From: William M	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Hatchery question Re: [AquaticLife] Re: German Blue Rams Spawned Aga

It looks like the air flow brings water from the tank into the box and it overflows like the old time filters. As far as the flow of air from the pump, I woud put a three way valve to adjust the air flow into the return stem going into the box.You might also wish to put some sponge across where the water exits to help prevent the babies from being swept into the main tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > I'm glad to see that the water flow can be adjusted; I had not seen that in the link you provided (and I looked for it), but it's good to know. I do see that it's only 1/2 gallon, which is fine when used as it was designed for -- as a breeding box for livebearers, to catch their fry in without them being born in the main aquarium. The livebearer fry are then transferred to a rearing tank of their own (they're not raised in the 1/2 gallon box). > > As livebearer fry are so o o much bigger than Dwarf Cichlid fry at first, they would be able to take a bit stronger water flow. I am hoping that the flow can be reduced enough for your idea of using it for Ram fry, although I do have my doubts on this being familar with both sizes of fry. Again, Methylene Blue is not the best funguscide. > > I don't understand why a bubbler weould be needed if there's a water flow constantly passing by them -- and the water flow can't be shut off as then there won't be any heat in the breeder box (since it's outside of the main tank and depends on the flow for heat).

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52518	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/5/2011
Subject: Re: Saturday's Test Results for Both Aquarium (after 2 PWC) and Tap

Hi Desire', Thanks for posting the pictures of Elle & your water test results. She is a very pretty fish, 3 of my large Goldfish are silver & I love the way they look so can see why you are so attached to her. I think we can rule out Ich but Flukes may be a possibility-especially gill flukes but I have no experience with that so go with what the others are saying if it turns out to be Flukes. Both Ich & Flukes are opportunist parasites that infest a fish when it's defences are down-ie when it is stressed. Off the top of my head I would suggest that Elle is flashing simply because of the very high nitrite but obviously as Ray pointed out we can only give you a best guess because we are not onsite. Looking at your water test results it occurs to me that a 20% water change is merely scratching the surface of your nitrite problem because you have almost the same reading before as after. Only changing out 20% you're going to find that by tomorrow your efforts have been wasted as the nitrite will be back up there again. If it were me I would be looking at a 60 or 70% water change immediately followed by 50% daily until the nitrite problem is brought under control. I think drastically lowering the nitrite is the most important thing to be be doing just now. The only pH test you need to be using is the high range-the lower one is just giving you a false reading because it cannot accurately go any higher than 7.6. Please let us know if you have any questions or need anything clarifying further. John*<o)))< * On 5 November 2011 23:39, Desire' A. Heatherly <mustanggirl83@...>wrote: > ** > > > Tap water baseline: > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > Nitrite - 0.50 ppm > Nitrate - 0 ppm > pH - 7.6 > High pH- 7.4 > > Water testing after 20 percent PWC: > > Ammonia - 0.25 ppm > Nitrite - 5.0 ppm > Nitrate - 10 ppm > pH- 7.6 (but that is the highest number the pH test tests..its darker than > the color for 7.6) > High Range pH- 7.8 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52519	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Hi Clare, Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. Best of luck, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, Ray: > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > Cheers, > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52520	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!!   Hi Clare, Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. Best of luck, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, Ray: > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > Cheers, > Clare > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52521	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?

I was looking for the pics but they haven't been approved yet, so all I have seen thus far are the original 3 in the album. With that I wanted to ask if you have added any decor to the tank yet? Koi will flash if they are stressed, and having no decor (as in the first picture) in the tank can cause a great deal of stress. I will check in later to see if there's anything else I can offer from your new pictures. Hang in there and don't be too quick to medicate, as there may be no reason for it. Medicating as a precaution can often cause more harm than good. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Thought ya'll might like to see some pictures of Elle and her 60 gallon winter set up (minus decorations- I just finished the water change when this pic was taken). > > > I examined her as best as I could and I do not see (with my untrained eye) anything that looks 'like salt' or anything that could suggest she has ich. And since her food is disappearing (though its when I'm not around), I don't suspect brown blood syndrome. The flashing continues though although sine I'm not in the same room with her for long periods of the day, I don't know how much she does it when I'm not around, but I find she does it pretty often when I'm in the room. > > Since I don't know for sure that it isn't ich (since I don't see any spots), it could also be what Ray said- fluke. Would that cause her to flash? Is that also a parasite type disease? I thought only they did that if they had ich. Is there something that could treat either or the other? I have been searching for the Formalin that was recommended and I can't seem to find it online. My local 'fish stores' are Petco and Petsmart. I didn't see it on either websites, so its not likely they carry it in their stores. > > I sent a pic of each side of Elle....I don't know if you could tell from pics if she has ich (without seeing her in person) but I thought I'd give it a shot. I'd hate to mis-disagnose her and treat her for the wrong thing. And I want to make sure she's parasite free before I put the live bacteria in her tank (it won't arrive until next Friday). But with the way she's acting with the flashing, SOMETHING is up and likely a parasite- just don't know what kind! I think her fins and body look just the same and I see no changes in it- just in the way she's behaving. ANyway, let me know if you can see anything I'm not seeing by the pictures. > > Thanks again! > Desire' in Louisiana > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52522	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Bill, Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may result in belly-sliders. While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Hi Clare, > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > Best of luck, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52523	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Ray, thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth... I'd like permission to re-post it on my local fish club forum... Credits to you of course.   Only one glitch in your advice in my case.. These guys love spawning on my amz. swords and even on jungle val!.. When using the val the last time, they covered over 8 inches of stem!.. Kinda hard to reverse the slate!  <grin>.. I've got a well seasoned 10G set up.. well planted.. a bit of algae.. sponge filter..That should hold them more than the suggested 2-3 days shouldn't it? Plus I have used decaped BBS.. and egg yolk and daphnia?.. Adequate substitution?  Again, thanks for the advice.  Bill in Va.   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!!   Bill, Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may result in belly-sliders. While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Hi Clare, > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > Best of luck, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52524	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Ray.. a tad clarification... If I remove the spawn media (slate) and move it into the 2.5G.. Now I've got up to 3 days in there, then up to 4-5 days till free swimmer stage, then feed them for one or two days and then into the 20L? Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!!   Bill, Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may result in belly-sliders. While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Hi Clare, > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > Best of luck, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > Cheers, > > Clare > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52525	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Bill, You've essentially got it all right, except foe the elapse time for the wrigglers -- they never take more than 4 days to free swim, from the time of hatching. So, yes, after moving the slate (and REPLACING with a fresh one) with a newly spawned clutch of eggs to the 2.5 gallon tank, it will take just about 3 days for them to hatch. Then, it will take another 3 3/4 to 4 days before they become free-swimming. They don't all free-swim at once, but could take up to 2 or more hours before all of them are feee swimming. Feed ONLY when all of them are free swimming. The first ones swimming will not starve in the meantime. As it really serves no purpose to keep the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank any longer than necessary, move them to the 20 long the next day after free swimming. This is easily done by using a fine-mesh BBS net and making slow figure 8's within the swarm of swimming fry to gather a net full, then transferring them to the 20 long; repeat as necessary to gather them all, and make it quick from 2.5 to 20L to prevent them from being exposed to the air for too long a period. Just a matter of extra seconds in the air can result in some fry floating (taking in extra air in their swim bladders), but this is a temporary condition which clears itself in a few hours. Another way to gather them is to use a small (1/2" dia.) syphon hose, if you're adept at using one without getting a mouthful. Start the syphon away from the fry just in case you do get a mouthful, and once the flow is started, gather the fry then. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. a tad clarification... If I remove the spawn media (slate) and move it into the 2.5G.. Now I've got up to 3 days in there, then up to 4-5 days till free swimmer stage, then feed them for one or two days and then into the 20L? Bill in Va.  > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Bill, > > Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. > > I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. > > Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. > > I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. > > There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. > > The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). > > Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. > > Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. > > If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may > result in belly-sliders. > > While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. > > Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy > to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > >   > > Hi Clare, > > > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > > > Best of luck, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52526	From: Ray	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Bill, Go right ahead and post it if you think it will help some of your local club's members. BTW, would you happen to belong to the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society? Since this pair prefers spawning on plant leaves, can I assume that you have the pair raise the fry -- or do you remove the leaf to another tank? I know a couple of breeders with fairly large breeding facilities, who have their pairs raise the fry in planted tanks. It works out well if large tanks can be provided for each pair (and all their growing fry) -- provided they don't eat them < g >. One possible major drawback of moving the eggs to a planted (gravel bottom) tank is that once the wrigglers fall off of the leaves or slate, and fall onto the gravel, the parents aren't there to continually scoop them back up and place them back onto the spawning site (where they often fall off again -- and again). Wrigglers on gravel can otherwise fall between the grains, sometimes enough of a distance down that they can't find their way out when they become free swimming. Just one more reason to have a bare bottom rearing tank. If you could supply the wrigglers (on the leaf or slate) with a saucer to hold these spawning sites, which would catch any fallen ones, this would solve that problem but few hobbyists think of that. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray, thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth... I'd like permission to re-post it on my local fish club forum... Credits to you of course.   Only one glitch in your advice in my case.. These guys love spawning on my amz. swords and even on jungle val!.. When using the val the last time, they covered over 8 inches of stem!.. Kinda hard to reverse the slate!  <grin>.. I've got a well seasoned 10G set up.. well planted.. a bit of algae.. sponge filter..That should hold them more than the suggested 2-3 days shouldn't it? > Plus I have used decaped BBS.. and egg yolk and daphnia?.. Adequate substitution?  Again, thanks for the advice.  Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Bill, > > Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. > > I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. > > Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. > > I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. > > There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. > > The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). > > Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. > > Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. > > If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may > result in belly-sliders. > > While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. > > Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy > to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > >   > > Hi Clare, > > > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > > > Best of luck, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52527	From: Bill	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

This pair is quite comical... I guess I should have given ya all my parameters before asking for advice hey?..<grin>.. I've 8 adult angels in a well planted tank..4 Lampeye tetes, 3 chinese banded sharks and 2 pleco's. (Albino BN's less than 2")  Amz.swords,  vals, sags, comoba (sp) and crypts..  Substrate is PFS.  Tank size is 155G 6 footer.  They bred for me on the 24th.. For lighting I have a 4 ft. 4 bulb strip and a 1 ft. CFL strip.  I left all lights on for the 5 days it took to swimmers.. then one night decided to leave just the 1 footer (directly overhead their hangout) and turned off the 4 ft'r... Not a minute later pandemonium set in in a feast fest and I was only able to rescue about 1 dozen to a 10G, and left about 2 dozen with the parents with full lighting once again.  As you can imagine, the tank approached the appearence of pea soup...and eventually all the fry disappeared.  Plus the dozen in the 10G disappeared one by one.. (So freaking tiny on these ole eyes).  With this brood  only 12 days later, I'm going to make every effort to preserve as many as I can. My thoughts were to let the parents maintain until free swimming and snag about 75% of the fry for a 10G leaving 25% for the parents to try and rear.... with an upgrade to a 33L in a week or two.  The 33L is empty right now...   I'd be pulling the sponge filter out to transfer with the bulk of the fry into the 33L... Where will this plan trip over?  Bill  Oh.. why is this pair comical?.. Their first spawn got relocated to a val leaf at some time.. during the wiggler stage.. Momma couldn't aim for beans when trying to spit the wanderers back onto the leaf...Overshoot every time!.. She'd drop down and duck under the leaf and repeat the process time and time again..  ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!!   Bill, Go right ahead and post it if you think it will help some of your local club's members. BTW, would you happen to belong to the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society? Since this pair prefers spawning on plant leaves, can I assume that you have the pair raise the fry -- or do you remove the leaf to another tank? I know a couple of breeders with fairly large breeding facilities, who have their pairs raise the fry in planted tanks. It works out well if large tanks can be provided for each pair (and all their growing fry) -- provided they don't eat them < g >. One possible major drawback of moving the eggs to a planted (gravel bottom) tank is that once the wrigglers fall off of the leaves or slate, and fall onto the gravel, the parents aren't there to continually scoop them back up and place them back onto the spawning site (where they often fall off again -- and again). Wrigglers on gravel can otherwise fall between the grains, sometimes enough of a distance down that they can't find their way out when they become free swimming. Just one more reason to have a bare bottom rearing tank. If you could supply the wrigglers (on the leaf or slate) with a saucer to hold these spawning sites, which would catch any fallen ones, this would solve that problem but few hobbyists think of that. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray, thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth... I'd like permission to re-post it on my local fish club forum... Credits to you of course.   Only one glitch in your advice in my case.. These guys love spawning on my amz. swords and even on jungle val!.. When using the val the last time, they covered over 8 inches of stem!.. Kinda hard to reverse the slate!  <grin>.. I've got a well seasoned 10G set up.. well planted.. a bit of algae.. sponge filter..That should hold them more than the suggested 2-3 days shouldn't it? > Plus I have used decaped BBS.. and egg yolk and daphnia?.. Adequate substitution?  Again, thanks for the advice.  Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Bill, > > Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. > > I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. > > Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. > > I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. > > There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. > > The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). > > Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. > > Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. > > If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may > result in belly-sliders. > > While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. > > Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy > to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > >   > > Hi Clare, > > > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > > > Best of luck, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52528	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/6/2011
Subject: Re: Elle - pics & possible parasite ?

I agree, it is very likely there is nothing wrong with Elle that a bit of interior decorating cannot fix! I think with some decor you will add interest to her tank & in doing so take some of the stress away. How about a short length of plastic drainpipe with the cut ends nicely sanded down smooth for her to play & hide in? Also some large 'pond safe' pebble from a garden center or fish store & a couple of fake plants. Ordinarily I would go with real plants but Koi are renowned for destroying them!! I would recommend some silk plants because they are very soft & will not cause any harm. How are your parameters looking today? I think once you get the tank cycled it may be time to find a buddy for Elle. John*<o)))< * On 6 November 2011 20:23, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > wrote: > ** > > > I was looking for the pics but they haven't been approved yet, so all I > have seen thus far are the original 3 in the album. With that I wanted to > ask if you have added any decor to the tank yet? Koi will flash if they are > stressed, and having no decor (as in the first picture) in the tank can > cause a great deal of stress. > I will check in later to see if there's anything else I can offer from > your new pictures. Hang in there and don't be too quick to medicate, as > there may be no reason for it. Medicating as a precaution can often cause > more harm than good. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > Thought ya'll might like to see some pictures of Elle and her 60 gallon > winter set up (minus decorations- I just finished the water change when > this pic was taken). > > > > > > I examined her as best as I could and I do not see (with my untrained > eye) anything that looks 'like salt' or anything that could suggest she has > ich. And since her food is disappearing (though its when I'm not around), I > don't suspect brown blood syndrome. The flashing continues though although > sine I'm not in the same room with her for long periods of the day, I don't > know how much she does it when I'm not around, but I find she does it > pretty often when I'm in the room. > > > > Since I don't know for sure that it isn't ich (since I don't see any > spots), it could also be what Ray said- fluke. Would that cause her to > flash? Is that also a parasite type disease? I thought only they did that > if they had ich. Is there something that could treat either or the other? I > have been searching for the Formalin that was recommended and I can't seem > to find it online. My local 'fish stores' are Petco and Petsmart. I didn't > see it on either websites, so its not likely they carry it in their stores. > > > > I sent a pic of each side of Elle....I don't know if you could tell from > pics if she has ich (without seeing her in person) but I thought I'd give > it a shot. I'd hate to mis-disagnose her and treat her for the wrong thing. > And I want to make sure she's parasite free before I put the live bacteria > in her tank (it won't arrive until next Friday). But with the way she's > acting with the flashing, SOMETHING is up and likely a parasite- just don't > know what kind! I think her fins and body look just the same and I see no > changes in it- just in the way she's behaving. ANyway, let me know if you > can see anything I'm not seeing by the pictures. > > > > Thanks again! > > Desire' in Louisiana > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52529	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Sunday results for Elle

Hi everyone, I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ Desire' in Louisiana, for Elle the koi [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52530	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Ram Fry Update

Hi, All! Thanks, Ray, for taking the time to respond to my posts - you are a veritable fount of information. Digressing a bit, let me say that though I do my research online and locally, I am totally appreciative of any info I can glean off this group - that is why I come here. My LFS is locally known for being among the most knowledgeable in the area. I am also a new member of a local aquarium group that meets once a month whose senior members seem of your caliber, Ray. I am pretty lucky to be able to touch on such resources. You did not "ruffle my feathers", I merely wanted to make sure that you knew what I think I know :-) That said, I have news of my wrigglers....the parents ate the ones in the tank - I watched them get the last few and they have abandoned to site; I will do a cleaning and water change, replace their spawning rock with something similar, keep the temp up and feed them all their favorite yummies to try again. The substrate in there is sand based, but some of the larger mix has risen topside, so I will remove it and add more sandy mix. The wrigglers in the hatchery - who I have been checking with my magnifying glass religiously - lost most of their egg sacs overnight and I prepared a batch of bbs & fed a small amount, but I cannot tell if anyone ate any. Some of the fry are sluggish & not free swimming yet - will I lose these guys? Thankfully, having put the suggested sponge material over the outlet drip as you suggested, a few fry who managed to reach it where spared and a couple caught in it and drowned. They are sooooo small! A note about this hatchery - I am finding it difficult to keep clean and it is hard to gently siphon out minute debris coming in from the main tank (tried a Fluval prefilter sponge over the intake but it stemmed flow to nearly nothing). Also, discerning fry from debris is also difficult for someone like me who is not in the least myopic :-) I am with you in agreeing that it is probably better served for live bearers, but was worth a try. I met the speaker for our group (doing a presentation on the cichlids of Guatamala) & he gave me an idea for a floating hatchery he has designed/used - he drew it out on a napkin and I will do my best to duplicate it to try next time. Perhaps my water hardness is an issue, as the local club breeders said they were surprised that the rams had bred in my local water at all and that they need softer water like in SA where they are from. I have never thought about the water hardness at all, so another aspect to research. It is all a learning curve, to be sure. Next week the local Cichlid Society meets, so if I can make it I will go to that meeting too as the topic will be Dwarf Cichlids - how timely! Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated - I have printed out your reply, Ray to keep in my notes. Thanks tons again & more soon. Cheers, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52531	From: jasadell	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: How to treat Ick

You know I'm not sure what the specs on my heater is (box and paperwork are trashed). It said something like "for 30-60 gallons" and since my 55 gallon aquarium actually has about a 49 gallon capacity, I figured it was sufficient. The tank is in the basement, which probably stays at about 69-70 o. I typically keep my tank at 78 o. The difference is enough to make some condensation collect under the lid. Is 78 o too high under normal conditions? I was considering getting a second of the same heater to balance out the tank temperature, and for redundancy in case one heater fails. I'm glad you suggested that. Thanks! JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > JD, > > Immediately upon reading your post here, and even before reading Bill's post asking what size your heater is, I too had in mind to ask you the size of your heater. So, I'm asking this of you now -- what size IS your heater? > > General applications of an aquarium heater in a room that isn't permitted to drop much more than what is most commonly recognized to be about the lowest temperature (68 o) that is still comfortable to us without having to put additional clothes on is 3 Watts per gallon to keep an aquarium of fish in their comfort range of 7.5 o above the surrounding temperature, meaning you need to have a heater of at least 150 Watts to maintain a temperature of about 76 o if you keep your room cool. Keeping your room nearer 72 o, will have your tank being able to be kept at very near 80 o with this same heater. To reach at least 86 o, you would need to use 6 Watts of heating capacity per gallon -- or 300 Watts, when keeping your room at 72 o. > > As 300 watts could overheat your aquarium if it were to stick on, you're best to use two 150 Watt heaters which couldn't cook your fish nor could chill your fish if either heater were to stick on or not function at all. > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52532	From: jasadell	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Desire, I had a 1600 gallon pond that I closed down, decided to keep two small Koi and a few goldfish in a 55 gallon, and donate the big guys to the 3000 gallon school pond. I was changing 25% of the water twice per week and still barely keeping up with it. On top of that, the Nitrates were high enough that algae bloom was nearly constant, even though the tank was in a dark basement with the lights only on a few minutes per day. I never lost one fish, but got got too big, and it ended up being too much work for me so I donated the rest of the fish to the school and converted the tank for tropical fish (not that I recommend this for your case) Anyway, (not to be a bummer) just know that Koi put out a lot of waste, which means a lot of Ammonia, which means (after the bacteria colonize), that there will be high Nitrites, and then high Nitrates. In my case, I managed to get the Nitrogen Cycle balanced so that the Ammonia and Nitrites were just within the tolerable range, but I had real difficulty in keeping the Nitrates down (hence the Algae blooms). Nitrates are at the end of the Nitrogen Cycle, so they only way to "naturally" get the Nitrogen down is with partial water changes. The challenge here is that if you change to much water out, you can "reset" your system and have to wait for it to colonize all over again. During those times your levels will be all over the place. Personally, I found that if I exceeded between 25% water change, it would reset my system, and my levels were irregular and inconsistent for a couple of weeks until it would balance again. I would recommend doing no more than 25% water changes, but to them twice per week (say, once on the weekend and once Wednesday), vacuuming deep into the substrate as you do so. Oh, I also found that adding more bio-material to my OTB filter helped quite a bit. I just shoved one of those plastic dish scrubber (kind of like a loofah) in each filter container behind the cartridge to add more surface area without restricting water flow. As well, at one point I was alternating water clarifier and algae control to try to clear up the bloom (don't do this; it's a bad idea). The algae control would always make them flash for a few days. Keep away from meds if you can help it. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > Desire' in Louisiana, > for Elle the koi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52533	From: Bill	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Ray.. I am a member of PVAS, although not a very active member... I got my rams at their auction this past summer.  They really do have their act together.  I belong to 4 or 5 forums and am a moderator on AquaticFriendsUnited.forumotion.com  that pretty much take up my time plus spend way too much time blogging on the politics of the day.  Our forum is a break-away from fishbox.  We didn't care for the heavy handed tactics of the owner nor his intolerance of keepers of hybrids.  I now know of 4 other forums that have formed due to his (Kory) actions on his forum.   Day 2 on the angel fry.. So far only TWO, oops Three infertile eggs!.. Bill in Va.   ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 6:56 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!!   Bill, Go right ahead and post it if you think it will help some of your local club's members. BTW, would you happen to belong to the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society? Since this pair prefers spawning on plant leaves, can I assume that you have the pair raise the fry -- or do you remove the leaf to another tank? I know a couple of breeders with fairly large breeding facilities, who have their pairs raise the fry in planted tanks. It works out well if large tanks can be provided for each pair (and all their growing fry) -- provided they don't eat them < g >. One possible major drawback of moving the eggs to a planted (gravel bottom) tank is that once the wrigglers fall off of the leaves or slate, and fall onto the gravel, the parents aren't there to continually scoop them back up and place them back onto the spawning site (where they often fall off again -- and again). Wrigglers on gravel can otherwise fall between the grains, sometimes enough of a distance down that they can't find their way out when they become free swimming. Just one more reason to have a bare bottom rearing tank. If you could supply the wrigglers (on the leaf or slate) with a saucer to hold these spawning sites, which would catch any fallen ones, this would solve that problem but few hobbyists think of that. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray, thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth... I'd like permission to re-post it on my local fish club forum... Credits to you of course.   Only one glitch in your advice in my case.. These guys love spawning on my amz. swords and even on jungle val!.. When using the val the last time, they covered over 8 inches of stem!.. Kinda hard to reverse the slate!  <grin>.. I've got a well seasoned 10G set up.. well planted.. a bit of algae.. sponge filter..That should hold them more than the suggested 2-3 days shouldn't it? > Plus I have used decaped BBS.. and egg yolk and daphnia?.. Adequate substitution?  Again, thanks for the advice.  Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Bill, > > Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. > > I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. > > Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. > > I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. > > There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. > > The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). > > Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. > > Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. > > If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may > result in belly-sliders. > > While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. > > Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's easy > to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > >   > > Hi Clare, > > > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you removed. > > > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of salt > > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 o > > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > > > Best of luck, > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52534	From: Bill	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update

Cobra.. Too bad you aren't local... In one of my "deals" I ended up with a bunch of water softener pillows... It was suggested to me that when I needed to soften my water, that I grab a bunch of oak leafs, bind them and immerse them into the tank.  (Others recommend buying Almond leaves) I'll let others chime in on the viability of that suggestion.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: cobra427lady <clare@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Ram Fry Update   Hi, All! Thanks, Ray, for taking the time to respond to my posts - you are a veritable fount of information. Digressing a bit, let me say that though I do my research online and locally, I am totally appreciative of any info I can glean off this group - that is why I come here. My LFS is locally known for being among the most knowledgeable in the area. I am also a new member of a local aquarium group that meets once a month whose senior members seem of your caliber, Ray. I am pretty lucky to be able to touch on such resources. You did not "ruffle my feathers", I merely wanted to make sure that you knew what I think I know :-) That said, I have news of my wrigglers....the parents ate the ones in the tank - I watched them get the last few and they have abandoned to site; I will do a cleaning and water change, replace their spawning rock with something similar, keep the temp up and feed them all their favorite yummies to try again. The substrate in there is sand based, but some of the larger mix has risen topside, so I will remove it and add more sandy mix. The wrigglers in the hatchery - who I have been checking with my magnifying glass religiously - lost most of their egg sacs overnight and I prepared a batch of bbs & fed a small amount, but I cannot tell if anyone ate any. Some of the fry are sluggish & not free swimming yet - will I lose these guys? Thankfully, having put the suggested sponge material over the outlet drip as you suggested, a few fry who managed to reach it where spared and a couple caught in it and drowned. They are sooooo small! A note about this hatchery - I am finding it difficult to keep clean and it is hard to gently siphon out minute debris coming in from the main tank (tried a Fluval prefilter sponge over the intake but it stemmed flow to nearly nothing). Also, discerning fry from debris is also difficult for someone like me who is not in the least myopic :-) I am with you in agreeing that it is probably better served for live bearers, but was worth a try. I met the speaker for our group (doing a presentation on the cichlids of Guatamala) & he gave me an idea for a floating hatchery he has designed/used - he drew it out on a napkin and I will do my best to duplicate it to try next time. Perhaps my water hardness is an issue, as the local club breeders said they were surprised that the rams had bred in my local water at all and that they need softer water like in SA where they are from. I have never thought about the water hardness at all, so another aspect to research. It is all a learning curve, to be sure. Next week the local Cichlid Society meets, so if I can make it I will go to that meeting too as the topic will be Dwarf Cichlids - how timely! Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated - I have printed out your reply, Ray to keep in my notes. Thanks tons again & more soon. Cheers, Clare [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52535	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Angelfish Spawn question

Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise 4-5 babies and keep them alive. Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot and lay eggs again. Should I try to remove the older fry? I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged a few tanks. I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle the other 10 gallon with the betta. What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? Amber

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52536	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: More Ick Questions

Now it's my turn to deal with ick in my 125 gal African cichlid tank. It seems to be in the early stages since I'm only seeing scratching right now. Although 2 of them seem to be hanging by the heater shaking. What does that indicate? From reading all your emails that raising the temperature and adding aquarium salt should help. My questions are these: My tank temp right now is 81 degrees. Is that a good temp? Do you recommend a chemical treatment for ick rather than salt and heat? Is there a particular brand of salt better than another? How much should I add to my 125 gal tank? Should I add it gradually rather than all at one time? Do I mix it with some aquarium water rather than sprinkling it in? By my questions can you tell this is my first time dealing with ick? I love this group and have been helped so much already. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. Gail > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52537	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

A lot of cichlids with just a handful of fry like that will just eat them and start over, so if you're attached to them, I'd say move them. If you can put in some gravel and decorations from a cycled tank that can really help jumpstart the new tank, I've done similar things and it seemed like they didn't really cycle much at all, especially if you put in plants too. It's not like the tank will be overstocked with just one fish in there. I have a 6 cup glass bowl right now with 6 cory catfish fry and they've been doing fine in a heated room with no filter or aerator for several weeks. I change the water every 2 days. They have duckweed on the top for infusoria and to use up ammonia (and I'm feeding them). --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot and > lay eggs again. > Should I try to remove the older fry? > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > a few tanks. > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52538	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

If you don't see any small white dots and you haven't gotten any new fish lately it may not be ich. Have you tested your water lately? Done a water change? They can get itchy from nitrites, ammonia, or if you forgot to remove chlorine. Before you add salt or raise the temperature you might want to test the water. I've never had ich turn up out of the blue, only gotten it from new fish, and then sometimes it spreads from one tank to another if I'm not completely careful with the sipon, washing my hands, etc. If they are new fish from a pet store, then they probably do have ich. If you try the heat treatment, put your hand all over the inside of the tank and make sure the current from the filter is enough to circulate the water so there aren't any cold spots because if there are your heat treatment won't work and it will continue to make the fish sick. I found that one out the hard way! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > Now it's my turn to deal with ick in my 125 gal African cichlid tank. It seems to be in the early stages since I'm only seeing scratching right now. Although 2 of them seem to be hanging by the heater shaking. What does that indicate? From reading all your emails that raising the temperature and adding aquarium salt should help. My questions are these: > My tank temp right now is 81 degrees. Is that a good temp? > Do you recommend a chemical treatment for ick rather than salt and heat? > Is there a particular brand of salt better than another? > How much should I add to my 125 gal tank? > Should I add it gradually rather than all at one time? > Do I mix it with some aquarium water rather than sprinkling it in? > By my questions can you tell this is my first time dealing with ick? > > I love this group and have been helped so much already. > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. > > Gail > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52539	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update

Thank, Bill....am doing my due diligence and will figure out the practical route for me :-) Meanwhile - I noticed a few more free swimmers, so I mixed up some egg yolk paste and tried a minute bit of it - the few swimming fry seemed interested but my eyes could be playing tricks on me. As soon as I can divide some space out in the 20G long, I will be moving the fry there - easier to keep it clean, harder to see them - what a trade off! Actually, saw on youtube that some breeders of discus are using the super fine mesh coffee grounds strainers to hold their fry in a smaller and cleaner environment - will think of a way to set that up - especially for next time.....lots to think about :-) Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Cobra.. Too bad you aren't local... In one of my "deals" I ended up with a bunch of water softener pillows... It was suggested to me that when I needed to soften my water, that I grab a bunch of oak leafs, bind them and immerse them into the tank.  (Others recommend buying Almond leaves) I'll let others chime in on the viability of that suggestion.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: cobra427lady <clare@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 10:21 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Ram Fry Update > > >   > Hi, All! > > Thanks, Ray, for taking the time to respond to my posts - you are a veritable fount of information. > > Digressing a bit, let me say that though I do my research online and locally, I am totally appreciative of any info I can glean off this group - that is why I come here. My LFS is locally known for being among the most knowledgeable in the area. I am also a new member of a local aquarium group that meets once a month whose senior members seem of your caliber, Ray. I am pretty lucky to be able to touch on such resources. You did not "ruffle my feathers", I merely wanted to make sure that you knew what I think I know :-) > > That said, I have news of my wrigglers....the parents ate the ones in the tank - I watched them get the last few and they have abandoned to site; I will do a cleaning and water change, replace their spawning rock with something similar, keep the temp up and feed them all their favorite yummies to try again. The substrate in there is sand based, but some of the larger mix has risen topside, so I will remove it and add more sandy mix. > > The wrigglers in the hatchery - who I have been checking with my magnifying glass religiously - lost most of their egg sacs overnight and I prepared a batch of bbs & fed a small amount, but I cannot tell if anyone ate any. Some of the fry are sluggish & not free swimming yet - will I lose these guys? Thankfully, having put the suggested sponge material over the outlet drip as you suggested, a few fry who managed to reach it where spared and a couple caught in it and drowned. They are sooooo small! > > A note about this hatchery - I am finding it difficult to keep clean and it is hard to gently siphon out minute debris coming in from the main tank (tried a Fluval prefilter sponge over the intake but it stemmed flow to nearly nothing). Also, discerning fry from debris is also difficult for someone like me who is not in the least myopic :-) I am with you in agreeing that it is probably better served for live bearers, but was worth a try. I met the speaker for our group (doing a presentation on the cichlids of Guatamala) & he gave me an idea for a floating hatchery he has designed/used - he drew it out on a napkin and I will do my best to duplicate it to try next time. > > Perhaps my water hardness is an issue, as the local club breeders said they were surprised that the rams had bred in my local water at all and that they need softer water like in SA where they are from. I have never thought about the water hardness at all, so another aspect to research. > > It is all a learning curve, to be sure. Next week the local Cichlid Society meets, so if I can make it I will go to that meeting too as the topic will be Dwarf Cichlids - how timely! > > Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated - I have printed out your reply, Ray to keep in my notes. Thanks tons again & more soon. > > Cheers, > Clare > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52540	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

I have 2 left that I can see. They're large enough to now have the shape of Angelfish and are no longer "round fry" shaped. I could put the 2 left in the 10 gallon, but by the time I get it set up and go to move them they might not be alive anymore. The parents are ignoring them but aren't eating them. The only problem is nothing is protecting them from the platty's now, but I think they're large enough that the platty's can't fit them in their mouths. I think I may move them to the spare 10 gallon just to raise them up. I may have more than 2 left, but that's all I could see in the tank. It's heavily planted, and I added a bunch of hornwort to the tank as well. So they have lots of places to hide. Amber On 11/7/2011 11:52 AM, haecklers wrote: > > A lot of cichlids with just a handful of fry like that will just eat > them and start over, so if you're attached to them, I'd say move them. > > If you can put in some gravel and decorations from a cycled tank that > can really help jumpstart the new tank, I've done similar things and > it seemed like they didn't really cycle much at all, especially if you > put in plants too. It's not like the tank will be overstocked with > just one fish in there. > > I have a 6 cup glass bowl right now with 6 cory catfish fry and > they've been doing fine in a heated room with no filter or aerator for > several weeks. I change the water every 2 days. They have duckweed on > the top for infusoria and to use up ammonia (and I'm feeding them). > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > and > > lay eggs again. > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > a few tanks. > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > Amber > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52541	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Try reading the test results under a fluorescent lighting, such as in your kitchen (most kitchens have brighter lighting). and hold the vial over the white part of the card next to the color to compare. This seems to help a little at least in telling the difference between the colors on the cards. As far as decorations... Are you able to get your hands on some flat rocks (such as slate or shale)? You can boil these and put them in her tank (after they cool down of course), these will give her some places to hide in, if you lean them up against the side of the tank and push them down into the gravel to secure them, also it might be a good idea to put other rocks against it so she doesn't knock it over if she gets scared, etc. You can also collect driftwood, but it's not easy or fast to get it to sink right away. I had a piece soaking for over a year before it actually sank enough to put it into a fish tank. Otherwise you'll have to use rocks to weigh it down in the tank. You could also get several of the water safe PVC piping and use hot glue to glue them together (or you could also use zip ties if you don't have hot glue or super glue handy, make sure to let the glue fully cure/dry before you add the decorations to the tank). You can stack the pipes on top of each other to make several "caves" for Elle to swim through and hide inside. Since she's so large it'll be difficult to find cheaper decorations at petsmart, etc. As the fancy decorations get VERY expensive the bigger they get. I'd recommend the PVC (make sure to get the pvc that's safe for drinking water pipes, the cheaper PVC can leach stuff into your water). Amber On 11/7/2011 4:53 AM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, > the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH > dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, > if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, > the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard > to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and > they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I > hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did > TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally > starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier > way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard > for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in > yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. > Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back > to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get > to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has > a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size > pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like > that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water > changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- > supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add > more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that > koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her > tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this > week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave > about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very > creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will > monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing > continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing > had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack > of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant > benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also > assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of > course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will > make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, > this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in > case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person > said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being > nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from > there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. > Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as > much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of > odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. > I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body > against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking > for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but > I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things > closely as I have been doing. > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to > what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but > wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay > to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have > to medicate for a parasite > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > Desire' in Louisiana, > for Elle the koi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52542	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

The only fish I added were juveniles from my frys tank and they were just fine so I did as you suggested and tested the water and here's what I came up with: Ph 7.6 Ammonia 0 ppm Nitrates. 160 ppm Nitrites. 0.25 ppm Could this be the problem? I did do a 30% water change two days ago. Should I do another? Also I ran out of charcoal. I have a Rena canister filter that's about due for a change. Do you have any suggestions as to what filter media would be good in this case? Thanks so much and my cichlids thank you too! Gail Sent from my iPad On Nov 7, 2011, at 5:45 PM, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > If you don't see any small white dots and you haven't gotten any new fish lately it may not be ich. Have you tested your water lately? Done a water change? They can get itchy from nitrites, ammonia, or if you forgot to remove chlorine. > > Before you add salt or raise the temperature you might want to test the water. > > I've never had ich turn up out of the blue, only gotten it from new fish, and then sometimes it spreads from one tank to another if I'm not completely careful with the sipon, washing my hands, etc. > > If they are new fish from a pet store, then they probably do have ich. > > If you try the heat treatment, put your hand all over the inside of the tank and make sure the current from the filter is enough to circulate the water so there aren't any cold spots because if there are your heat treatment won't work and it will continue to make the fish sick. I found that one out the hard way! > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > > > Now it's my turn to deal with ick in my 125 gal African cichlid tank. It seems to be in the early stages since I'm only seeing scratching right now. Although 2 of them seem to be hanging by the heater shaking. What does that indicate? From reading all your emails that raising the temperature and adding aquarium salt should help. My questions are these: > > My tank temp right now is 81 degrees. Is that a good temp? > > Do you recommend a chemical treatment for ick rather than salt and heat? > > Is there a particular brand of salt better than another? > > How much should I add to my 125 gal tank? > > Should I add it gradually rather than all at one time? > > Do I mix it with some aquarium water rather than sprinkling it in? > > By my questions can you tell this is my first time dealing with ick? > > > > I love this group and have been helped so much already. > > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. > > > > Gail > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52543	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update

Using oak leaves (or almond leaves) releases tannins into the water, the same as driftwood will do. This is over time, and it can soften the water over time as well (which can also cause the pH to drop if there is no hardness buffer). I can't do this in my tanks as I have very little hardness in my water and if I added too many leaves/driftwood my pH would crash :( You can also do the same with peat moss (it's safer if you use the peat moss to make tea with then add the tea to the tank to slowly lower the pH/hardness). Adding peat moss can lower your pH/hardness too much and then you'll be constantly removing and adding peat moss to find the right amount, so I suppose it could work, but there might be some trial and error (and possibly fish deaths if things go too wrong). Amber On 11/7/2011 9:47 AM, Bill wrote: > > Cobra.. Too bad you aren't local... In one of my "deals" I ended up > with a bunch of water softener pillows... It was suggested to me that > when I needed to soften my water, that I grab a bunch of oak leafs, > bind them and immerse them into the tank. (Others recommend buying > Almond leaves) I'll let others chime in on the viability of that > suggestion. Bill in Va. > > ________________________________ > From: cobra427lady <clare@... > <mailto:clare%40clarescreaturecomforts.com>> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, November 7, 2011 10:21 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Ram Fry Update > > > Hi, All! > > Thanks, Ray, for taking the time to respond to my posts - you are a > veritable fount of information. > > Digressing a bit, let me say that though I do my research online and > locally, I am totally appreciative of any info I can glean off this > group - that is why I come here. My LFS is locally known for being > among the most knowledgeable in the area. I am also a new member of a > local aquarium group that meets once a month whose senior members seem > of your caliber, Ray. I am pretty lucky to be able to touch on such > resources. You did not "ruffle my feathers", I merely wanted to make > sure that you knew what I think I know :-) > > That said, I have news of my wrigglers....the parents ate the ones in > the tank - I watched them get the last few and they have abandoned to > site; I will do a cleaning and water change, replace their spawning > rock with something similar, keep the temp up and feed them all their > favorite yummies to try again. The substrate in there is sand based, > but some of the larger mix has risen topside, so I will remove it and > add more sandy mix. > > The wrigglers in the hatchery - who I have been checking with my > magnifying glass religiously - lost most of their egg sacs overnight > and I prepared a batch of bbs & fed a small amount, but I cannot tell > if anyone ate any. Some of the fry are sluggish & not free swimming > yet - will I lose these guys? Thankfully, having put the suggested > sponge material over the outlet drip as you suggested, a few fry who > managed to reach it where spared and a couple caught in it and > drowned. They are sooooo small! > > A note about this hatchery - I am finding it difficult to keep clean > and it is hard to gently siphon out minute debris coming in from the > main tank (tried a Fluval prefilter sponge over the intake but it > stemmed flow to nearly nothing). Also, discerning fry from debris is > also difficult for someone like me who is not in the least myopic :-) > I am with you in agreeing that it is probably better served for live > bearers, but was worth a try. I met the speaker for our group (doing a > presentation on the cichlids of Guatamala) & he gave me an idea for a > floating hatchery he has designed/used - he drew it out on a napkin > and I will do my best to duplicate it to try next time. > > Perhaps my water hardness is an issue, as the local club breeders said > they were surprised that the rams had bred in my local water at all > and that they need softer water like in SA where they are from. I have > never thought about the water hardness at all, so another aspect to > research. > > It is all a learning curve, to be sure. Next week the local Cichlid > Society meets, so if I can make it I will go to that meeting too as > the topic will be Dwarf Cichlids - how timely! > > Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated - I have printed out your reply, > Ray to keep in my notes. Thanks tons again & more soon. > > Cheers, > Clare > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52544	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

Make sure to slowly raise your temp, no more than 2 degrees a day. If you change it too fast you can easily shock your fish and even kill some of them. Salt and heat is the cheapest and safest method of getting rid of ich, but you will have to continue to raise your temps. Don't add the salt directly to the tank, fish can and will most likely try to eat it, which will burn their insides/gills/mouth etc if they eat it. Instead add the salt to a cup of tank water and stir it until it all dissolves, then add that salt water mix to your tank. I can't remember how much salt is required per gallon, I thought Ray had posted it somewhere in the last ich thread we just had, as well as how high of a temperature you want to raise your tank to. Amber On 11/7/2011 10:20 AM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Now it's my turn to deal with ick in my 125 gal African cichlid tank. > It seems to be in the early stages since I'm only seeing scratching > right now. Although 2 of them seem to be hanging by the heater > shaking. What does that indicate? From reading all your emails that > raising the temperature and adding aquarium salt should help. My > questions are these: > My tank temp right now is 81 degrees. Is that a good temp? > Do you recommend a chemical treatment for ick rather than salt and heat? > Is there a particular brand of salt better than another? > How much should I add to my 125 gal tank? > Should I add it gradually rather than all at one time? > Do I mix it with some aquarium water rather than sprinkling it in? > By my questions can you tell this is my first time dealing with ick? > > I love this group and have been helped so much already. > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. > > Gail > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52545	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Hi Desire', You are not alone in having problems deciphering the colour charts for the water test kits, I have tried very many different makes from expensive professional kits that use tablets instead of liquids right down to the regular ones & believe me they are all a nightmare, the colour of the liquid in the vial rarely, if ever looks like the representation on the card. Even the Palin Test with it's innovative see-through acetate chart is way off & they all seem to appear different in different lights & to different people!! A friend of mine who has been keeping fish for 40 years gave me a real good tip about this-he said don't try to match the pigment but rather look at the colour intensity of the liquid in the test tube & match that. This way I found that it usually makes more sense. The fact that both yourself & a friend saw the nitrite reading as 2 is encouraging-especially as you reported it as 5 just a couple of days ago. This makes perfect sense & shows that the cycle is kicking in-the ammonia would have spiked first & is now on it's way down to zero-I would guess that it will be there is a day or so. The nitrite will follow soon after but it has been my experience that nitrite is often harder to get rid of than ammonia when first setting up a tank. I don't know why this is but I would recommend that you don't clean your filter too thoroughly for a while, just keep the toxins diluted with the frequent PWCs. I'm glad I could help about the drainpipe idea although I cannot take credit for it, before he completely netted it one of my customers used to put short lengths of drainpipe in his pond so as the Goldfish & baby Koi could have somewhere to hide from the Heron, it seemed to work as well. All Carps are inquisitive fish so she will naturally explore anything that is in her tank & that's great therapy because giving Elle something to do will ease her stress. What food[s] are you offering her? It sounds like everything is going well-keep us posted! John*<o)))< * On 7 November 2011 18:04, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > Desire, > > I had a 1600 gallon pond that I closed down, decided to keep two small Koi > and a few goldfish in a 55 gallon, and donate the big guys to the 3000 > gallon school pond. I was changing 25% of the water twice per week and > still barely keeping up with it. On top of that, the Nitrates were high > enough that algae bloom was nearly constant, even though the tank was in a > dark basement with the lights only on a few minutes per day. I never lost > one fish, but got got too big, and it ended up being too much work for me > so I donated the rest of the fish to the school and converted the tank for > tropical fish (not that I recommend this for your case) > > Anyway, (not to be a bummer) just know that Koi put out a lot of waste, > which means a lot of Ammonia, which means (after the bacteria colonize), > that there will be high Nitrites, and then high Nitrates. In my case, I > managed to get the Nitrogen Cycle balanced so that the Ammonia and Nitrites > were just within the tolerable range, but I had real difficulty in keeping > the Nitrates down (hence the Algae blooms). Nitrates are at the end of the > Nitrogen Cycle, so they only way to "naturally" get the Nitrogen down is > with partial water changes. The challenge here is that if you change to > much water out, you can "reset" your system and have to wait for it to > colonize all over again. During those times your levels will be all over > the place. > > Personally, I found that if I exceeded between 25% water change, it would > reset my system, and my levels were irregular and inconsistent for a couple > of weeks until it would balance again. I would recommend doing no more than > 25% water changes, but to them twice per week (say, once on the weekend and > once Wednesday), vacuuming deep into the substrate as you do so. Oh, I also > found that adding more bio-material to my OTB filter helped quite a bit. I > just shoved one of those plastic dish scrubber (kind of like a loofah) in > each filter container behind the cartridge to add more surface area without > restricting water flow. > > As well, at one point I was alternating water clarifier and algae control > to try to clear up the bloom (don't do this; it's a bad idea). The algae > control would always make them flash for a few days. Keep away from meds if > you can help it. > > JD > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the > Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to > 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw > correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two > brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to > distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said > it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, > (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests > to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite > drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with > the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give > inaccurate results. > > > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in > yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its > still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to > Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing > that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of > plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's > tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes > and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on > Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to > her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has > some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, > until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try > the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to > use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. > Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the > flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her > flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and > lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant > benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also > assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course > sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it > ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't > likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above > reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to > be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank > cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional > expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial > expense. > > > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as > much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but > again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen > her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She > will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of > that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this > morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what > I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to > see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue > use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a > parasite > > > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > > > Desire' in Louisiana, > > for Elle the koi > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52546	From: haecklers	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

You might want to test your tap water to see if it has nitrates, nitrites, or ammonia - sometimes it does this time of year from decomposing leaves in a reservoir or fertilizer runoff from all those people who want green lawns next year. If your tap water checks out then do another water change. The nitrites should be 0 and 160 is high for nitrates, anything over 100 can cause discomfort and make them more likely to get sick. In the meantime you can add some Prime or Ammo-Lock to the water which will lower the nitrites some but it's still not as good as a water change. You can also go a day without feeding them (unless the fry are young) - the more they eat the more waste, the more ammonia, the more the nitrites go up. And yes, raise the temperature gradually. What kind of fish do you have? Some take higher temperatures better than others. If the nitrates are high, the oxygen may be low from that, and warmer water holds less dissolved oxygen, so add in an airstone or bubbler for while the water temp. is being raised. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > The only fish I added were juveniles from my frys tank and they were just fine so I did as you suggested and tested the water and here's what I came up with: > Ph 7.6 > Ammonia 0 ppm > Nitrates. 160 ppm > Nitrites. 0.25 ppm > > Could this be the problem? I did do a 30% water change two days ago. Should I do another? Also I ran out of charcoal. I have a Rena canister filter that's about due for a change. Do you have any suggestions as to what filter media would be good in this case? > > Thanks so much and my cichlids thank you too! > > Gail > > Sent from my iPad

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52547	From: William M	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

One thing to help make the PVC pipe look better is to get some aquarium safe glue such as silicon sealer and paste the "glue" over the pipe and then roll the pipe in aquarium gravel or you can "glue" other things such as plastic plants to it. Let it cure and then rince it real well before you put it into the tank. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52548	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/7/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Okay I filled the 10 gallon with water from the Angelfish tank, then moved a big handfull of hornwort from that tank to the 10 gallon as well as some duckweed and snails (they rode along). I only found 2 fry left and moved them both to the 10 gallon. I didn't have a stand to put the 10 gallon on, so I had to put it on the floor, but it has a full hood with no gaps, and I put all of hubby's tackle boxes around the sides/front of the tank so the cats can't sit and stare/tap the glass and scare the 2 fry. Both of the fry that survived are Koi coloring like the father. Amber On 11/7/2011 11:52 AM, haecklers wrote: > > A lot of cichlids with just a handful of fry like that will just eat > them and start over, so if you're attached to them, I'd say move them. > > If you can put in some gravel and decorations from a cycled tank that > can really help jumpstart the new tank, I've done similar things and > it seemed like they didn't really cycle much at all, especially if you > put in plants too. It's not like the tank will be overstocked with > just one fish in there. > > I have a 6 cup glass bowl right now with 6 cory catfish fry and > they've been doing fine in a heated room with no filter or aerator for > several weeks. I change the water every 2 days. They have duckweed on > the top for infusoria and to use up ammonia (and I'm feeding them). > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > and > > lay eggs again. > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > a few tanks. > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > Amber > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52549	From: Ray	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Fry Update

Hi Clare, Glad to see that I didn't upset you in suggesting that all of your literature sources or your LFS guru might not always be correct. I can respect his many years in the hobby and in the business but none of us can know everything there is to know about fish. Then too, as many of us already know, a good number of "authentically-appearing" web sites actually know very little, and much of what they have up on line cannot be believed as it's either misleading or just plain erroneous. It becomes obvious, when the same inncorrect info is written word for word on copied web sites, on which the owner shows his ignorance just by continuing information that he obviously doesn't know is wrong. Sorry to hear about the parents eating the wrigglers left in their tank, but then we half-expected this might happen. As for replacing the spawning rock immediately upon removing the one with the eggs, the reasons for this are (1) not to have the parents confused by the sudden "disappearance" of their spawning site, and (2) most importantly, so that one parent doesn't blame the other for eating the eggs which have suddenly (and obviously, even to them) disappeared. The replacement rock will greatly reduce -- most often eliminate -- this possibility of one blaming the other for the disappearance of the eggs, sometimes promoting all out war between them and maybe the dissolution of the pair bond. Usually, the parents will continue to fan the replacement rock as they are programmed to do so, gradually becoming aware that the eggs are there no longer over the next 8 hours, defusing any possible aggression the missing eggs may have caused, very slowly. BTW, if possible, egg-laden rocks or slates should always be removed in the evening just before lights out. As the ambient light slowly increases at dawn the following morning, the slow but increasing realization that the eggs are gone is eventually realized, but no one is to blame (and there are phsychological reasons for this in Ciclids which I won't go into here). I'm glad you said the substrate is mostly sand. This addresses the question of the fry falling down into it and becoming lost, where the parents can't even retrieve them if they tried. Nice to see that you hatched a batch of BBS. Ram fry might be too small to eat newly hatched BBS, depending on the shrimp egg's source. If they did, you should see the bellies extended with an orange color. Here's were an algae-covered surface or plants like Najas and Java Moss can provide smaller animaculae for the fry to pick on. No reason yet to believe you'll lose your sluggish, non-free-swimming fry, unless they're remaining like this after more than 3 hours of the other fry becoming free-swimming. Of course, I did say not to feed the fry until all of them were free-swimming -- which could take several hours, so I hope you didn't feed them prematurely. If these non-swimming fry were fed too soon, it's doubtful they'll last. I really didn't think this hatchery weould work out for these fry, but then, I guess you had to see for yourself. Is there any reason why you don't want to transfer the fry directly to the tank in which you're going to raise them? There's really no reason to hold them in any small container after they swim. If there's a question on that, feel free to ask. When keeping a small container such as this debris-free, you can use a length of air line hose, starting the syphon in mid water where you can see there are no fry present. When cleaning the bottom though, you need to be extremely watchful so as not to syphon up any fry; this can be difficult since they're so small. Always syphon this debris into a clean bucket that you can then double check for fry that got past your observation for them, and which may have been drawn into the bucket. Don't throw this water out yet until you've checked the bucket thoroughly. You can use a turkey baster to place them back into their hatchery. You could also use the turkey baster to clean off the debris from the bottom of the hatchery, but I don't recommend it as accidentally pushing the baster bulb just once will result in blowing the debris up off the bottom, allthrough the water column. The floating hatchery you mentioned sounds promising, but again, why subject the fry to this extra in-between step? A word of caution on floating hatcheries for egg-layer fry though, if the bottom is made of any kind of fine netting material, other fish in the tank often find a way of sucking the wrigglers right through the net, since their lying on this hatchery's bottom -- they're not swimming yet, as livebearer fry would be. Yes, Rams prefer softer water -- from 3 o, up to usually no more than 6 o dGH. I don't recall now how hard your water is (or if I missed it), but many hobbyists would like to have the same results you're having with your Ram pair. As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." As your Rams are spawning for you, don't change their water parameters. Yes again, there's a lot to learn , but as long as you have the keen interest to do so, I'm sure you'll gain this knowledge just fine. You mentioned attending your local Cichlid Society next week. There's nothing like joining an aquarium club and exchanging ideas, etc. Which Cichlid club is this, that you're going to? As it's dwarf Cichlids, you shouldn't miss it as even if you gain only one piece of knowledge that you never knew before, it will be worth it. As you enjoy Cichlids, you might want to consider joing the ACA (American Cichlid Association), not that I'm hawking the organization on here. But, I've been in it since it's inception (I'm a charter member), and served on the first Board of Directors. It's well worthwhile, as are any of these national groups like the ALA or the AKA, just as are local clubs. I could offer lots more info on info/suggestions, such as you're welcoming, but without knowing what you're looking for, I wouldn't know where to concentrate them. As I said, just ask about something and I'll try to fill you in. Oh yeah, just thought of something -- usually, you will need to hatch a new batch of BBS every day (as they're most nutritious only within the first six hours when they still have their yolk sacks -- yes, BBS have yolk sacks too). However, you can place any uneaten BBS in a small container (with their brine water) in the refrigerator where they'll stay alive but won't "age" that fast -- to be fed to the fish fry on following days. A small but flat container is preferred, so that the BBS doesn't pile up on each other and suffocate themselves. Find out at the fish club meeting whether someone has a micro-worm culture available. This would be a good first food for your Ram fry, if you care to raise them (not hard to do). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Hi, All! > > Thanks, Ray, for taking the time to respond to my posts - you are a veritable fount of information. > > Digressing a bit, let me say that though I do my research online and locally, I am totally appreciative of any info I can glean off this group - that is why I come here. My LFS is locally known for being among the most knowledgeable in the area. I am also a new member of a local aquarium group that meets once a month whose senior members seem of your caliber, Ray. I am pretty lucky to be able to touch on such resources. You did not "ruffle my feathers", I merely wanted to make sure that you knew what I think I know :-) > > That said, I have news of my wrigglers....the parents ate the ones in the tank - I watched them get the last few and they have abandoned to site; I will do a cleaning and water change, replace their spawning rock with something similar, keep the temp up and feed them all their favorite yummies to try again. The substrate in there is sand based, but some of the larger mix has risen topside, so I will remove it and add more sandy mix. > > The wrigglers in the hatchery - who I have been checking with my magnifying glass religiously - lost most of their egg sacs overnight and I prepared a batch of bbs & fed a small amount, but I cannot tell if anyone ate any. Some of the fry are sluggish & not free swimming yet - will I lose these guys? Thankfully, having put the suggested sponge material over the outlet drip as you suggested, a few fry who managed to reach it where spared and a couple caught in it and drowned. They are sooooo small! > > A note about this hatchery - I am finding it difficult to keep clean and it is hard to gently siphon out minute debris coming in from the main tank (tried a Fluval prefilter sponge over the intake but it stemmed flow to nearly nothing). Also, discerning fry from debris is also difficult for someone like me who is not in the least myopic :-) I am with you in agreeing that it is probably better served for live bearers, but was worth a try. I met the speaker for our group (doing a presentation on the cichlids of Guatamala) & he gave me an idea for a floating hatchery he has designed/used - he drew it out on a napkin and I will do my best to duplicate it to try next time. > > Perhaps my water hardness is an issue, as the local club breeders said they were surprised that the rams had bred in my local water at all and that they need softer water like in SA where they are from. I have never thought about the water hardness at all, so another aspect to research. > > It is all a learning curve, to be sure. Next week the local Cichlid Society meets, so if I can make it I will go to that meeting too as the topic will be Dwarf Cichlids - how timely! > > Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated - I have printed out your reply, Ray to keep in my notes. Thanks tons again & more soon. > > Cheers, > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52550	From: Ray	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Amber, Yes, you should remove the older fry. Occasionally, we might get a pair which will tolerate their previous spawn in the presence of their new spawn, but it's not often. Usually, and especially as your pair is no longer taking care of the older fry, Angelfish pairs may see them as a danger to their new eggs/fry, and feel the need to attack or even kill them if they get too close to the spawning site -- just as they'de do with any other fish. For 4 - 5 fry just reaching the size of starting to look like Angelfish, there's really no need to place them in a cycled tank, as their combined waste is absolutely minimal. Any cycling that will take place as a result of the miniscule amount of ammonia given off by these few minute fish (and there will always be cycling in the presence of ammonia) is impossible to amount to much more than 0.008 ppm) in a 10 gallon tank, IF that. There's no need for any concern here. Even so, with 0.008 being cycled and peaking at around 0.02 ppm, that still practically zero. The cycle will take place with practically zero effect on the fish as it's negligable. As you may have read, I've been breeding Angels for about 60 years (not that I'm still not eager to learn something -- I AM), and I've never used a "cycled" tank (20 gallon long) to transfer any Cichlid fry to -- as entire spawns -- and that includes especially Angels. The bioload is so infinitesimally small that it's of no concern. As the fish grow (and as there are weekly PWC's done), constant complete cycling of their tank grows, remains and increases with them gradually, so that, at all times the fry are in a fully cycled tank from the time their bioload even starts to make any impact. Do you think that fish wholesalers even have the opportunity of putting their weekly newly arrived shipments of fish in cycled tanks, if they need to clean out and give these new arrivals fresh water -- even if they wanted to? No, they just can't do it. They will however try to always rinse out the filter media of as much debris as possible and use the cycled filter, but it's not as though the tank itself is cycled yet. There's no substrate, and all of the inside surfaces are scrubbed free of as much bacteria as possible, whether beneficial bacteria or not. They can't afford to give a tank laden with any kind of bacteria to new arrivals that was used for a week by a bioload of fish that is generally too large for these stock tanks. They may easily have 100 Neons in a 20 gallon long, but because most of the fish are sold long before even the ammonia can spike, they don't concern themselves with cycling, and they must set these tanks up thoroughly cleaned out and with fresh water all the time, for large bioloads of imports. A lone Betta in a 10 gallon tank will not create anything near even a stressful ammount of ammonia before this amount fully cycles -- and I'm not advocating cycling a tank with live fish -- the bioload is just too small here to be of much consequence, as a single small fish such as a Betta will not produce an amount of ammonia in a 10 gallon tank, that can build up to any appreciable amount at all before it's converted. Hope this helps your decision. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot and > lay eggs again. > Should I try to remove the older fry? > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > a few tanks. > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > Amber >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52551	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Thanks Ray, I went ahead and moved the 2 older fry (not sure if there are more but I couldn't find any others unfortunately), last night. I also moved some of the hornwort and naja grass for the 2 fry to find food in, in between feedings. I keep checking the 55 gallon to see if there are any more fry in there, but haven't seen any others yet, so I think either the parents ate them or the platy's ate them. Amber On 11/8/2011 4:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > Amber, > > Yes, you should remove the older fry. Occasionally, we might get a > pair which will tolerate their previous spawn in the presence of their > new spawn, but it's not often. Usually, and especially as your pair is > no longer taking care of the older fry, Angelfish pairs may see them > as a danger to their new eggs/fry, and feel the need to attack or even > kill them if they get too close to the spawning site -- just as > they'de do with any other fish. > > For 4 - 5 fry just reaching the size of starting to look like > Angelfish, there's really no need to place them in a cycled tank, as > their combined waste is absolutely minimal. Any cycling that will take > place as a result of the miniscule amount of ammonia given off by > these few minute fish (and there will always be cycling in the > presence of ammonia) is impossible to amount to much more than 0.008 > ppm) in a 10 gallon tank, IF that. There's no need for any concern > here. Even so, with 0.008 being cycled and peaking at around 0.02 ppm, > that still practically zero. The cycle will take place with > practically zero effect on the fish as it's negligable. > > As you may have read, I've been breeding Angels for about 60 years > (not that I'm still not eager to learn something -- I AM), and I've > never used a "cycled" tank (20 gallon long) to transfer any Cichlid > fry to -- as entire spawns -- and that includes especially Angels. The > bioload is so infinitesimally small that it's of no concern. As the > fish grow (and as there are weekly PWC's done), constant complete > cycling of their tank grows, remains and increases with them > gradually, so that, at all times the fry are in a fully cycled tank > from the time their bioload even starts to make any impact. > > Do you think that fish wholesalers even have the opportunity of > putting their weekly newly arrived shipments of fish in cycled tanks, > if they need to clean out and give these new arrivals fresh water -- > even if they wanted to? No, they just can't do it. They will however > try to always rinse out the filter media of as much debris as possible > and use the cycled filter, but it's not as though the tank itself is > cycled yet. There's no substrate, and all of the inside surfaces are > scrubbed free of as much bacteria as possible, whether beneficial > bacteria or not. They can't afford to give a tank laden with any kind > of bacteria to new arrivals that was used for a week by a bioload of > fish that is generally too large for these stock tanks. They may > easily have 100 Neons in a 20 gallon long, but because most of the > fish are sold long before even the ammonia can spike, they don't > concern themselves with cycling, and they must set these tanks up > thoroughly cleaned out and with fresh water all the time, for large > bioloads of imports. > > A lone Betta in a 10 gallon tank will not create anything near even a > stressful ammount of ammonia before this amount fully cycles -- and > I'm not advocating cycling a tank with live fish -- the bioload is > just too small here to be of much consequence, as a single small fish > such as a Betta will not produce an amount of ammonia in a 10 gallon > tank, that can build up to any appreciable amount at all before it's > converted. > > Hope this helps your decision. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > and > > lay eggs again. > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > a few tanks. > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > Amber > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52552	From: K T Ong	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: (no subject)

Can you please tell me the life span of:- sword tail, black molly, and other aquarium fishes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52554	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Good Grief! Free Swimming Fry with the Parent Rams!

Well, after not seeing any more wrigglers in the tank with the parents and having 10 or so fry that I siphoned off survive and seem to be okay I awoke this AM to find my ram parents in a cloud of free swimming fry - all after I cleaned their tank and replaced their spawning rock, etc......good lord, could I have done anymore damage - geez louise! They must have moved them despite me & I did not gravel vac so the fry dodged a bullet there....I guess I was in too much of a beginner's rush with this spawn and learned a valuable lesson about patience when it comes to maintaining a diligent "fry watch". The good news is that these fry look vigorous and the parents seem to be doing a good job thus far so I am leaving them alone, fed the parents and simply squirted in some BBS for the fry to find.... So this AM I also siphoned out the fry in the hatchery to a cup and floated it in the 20G long while I cleaned and moved the hatchery to the 20G long using water from their old tank and dripping in the new water while they floated. Fed them a drop of egg yolk - not interested. Waited until I moved them back into the hatchery, they are swimming around though not as vigorously as the ones with the parents.....a couple of drops of BBS seemed interesting to them. We'll see - more updates if you don't mind and I would totally appreciate any advice on their care - when should I move the fry from the parents, etc??? I am going to divide off a section of the 20G long for them when they are a little bigger - a week or so? Oh, and just to be clear, the tank parameters of both are the same and temp is 83 degrees in both. Look forward to hearing from you all! Cheers, Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52555	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

I just want to add to everyone else's great info here... when choosing the pvc for Elle to use for hiding, be sure the diameter of it is large enough. Expect your fish to grow over the winter months and if she can get into it now she will continue to try to get into it later, even if she has outgrown it. I have seen too many goldfish and koi alike get stuck in the pvc tubing because they outgrew it, and it can be difficult to impossible to get them out when that happens. If you notice that her growth is making for a tighter fit over the next few months, remove those pieces and replace them with wider ones for her safety. She should have at least 1 inch or more of clearance all around her when inside the tubes. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > Desire' in Louisiana, > for Elle the koi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52556	From: jasadell	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Aquarium Salt

So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this ratio be kept all of the time? JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52557	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: (unknown)

Lifespan varies, can be long or short based on genetics and much less quality of water condition upon birth and rehoming.  Did you have one die? ________________________________ From: K T Ong <kokthye69@...> To: "AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com" <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 4:51 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] (unknown)   Can you please tell me the life span of:- sword tail, black molly, and other aquarium fishes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52558	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

I only add salt to treat an illness or parasite. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 4:13 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Aquarium Salt So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this ratio be kept all of the time? JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52559	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Ray just one quick question: what temp should I keep the fry at? I set the heater to 78 and I noticed the thermometer was reading just around 82 degrees, which is a couple of degrees higher than the 55 gallon the parents are spawning in. Is this an okay temp for the fry or should I lower it back down to 80... or even lower than that? Amber On 11/8/2011 4:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > Amber, > > Yes, you should remove the older fry. Occasionally, we might get a > pair which will tolerate their previous spawn in the presence of their > new spawn, but it's not often. Usually, and especially as your pair is > no longer taking care of the older fry, Angelfish pairs may see them > as a danger to their new eggs/fry, and feel the need to attack or even > kill them if they get too close to the spawning site -- just as > they'de do with any other fish. > > For 4 - 5 fry just reaching the size of starting to look like > Angelfish, there's really no need to place them in a cycled tank, as > their combined waste is absolutely minimal. Any cycling that will take > place as a result of the miniscule amount of ammonia given off by > these few minute fish (and there will always be cycling in the > presence of ammonia) is impossible to amount to much more than 0.008 > ppm) in a 10 gallon tank, IF that. There's no need for any concern > here. Even so, with 0.008 being cycled and peaking at around 0.02 ppm, > that still practically zero. The cycle will take place with > practically zero effect on the fish as it's negligable. > > As you may have read, I've been breeding Angels for about 60 years > (not that I'm still not eager to learn something -- I AM), and I've > never used a "cycled" tank (20 gallon long) to transfer any Cichlid > fry to -- as entire spawns -- and that includes especially Angels. The > bioload is so infinitesimally small that it's of no concern. As the > fish grow (and as there are weekly PWC's done), constant complete > cycling of their tank grows, remains and increases with them > gradually, so that, at all times the fry are in a fully cycled tank > from the time their bioload even starts to make any impact. > > Do you think that fish wholesalers even have the opportunity of > putting their weekly newly arrived shipments of fish in cycled tanks, > if they need to clean out and give these new arrivals fresh water -- > even if they wanted to? No, they just can't do it. They will however > try to always rinse out the filter media of as much debris as possible > and use the cycled filter, but it's not as though the tank itself is > cycled yet. There's no substrate, and all of the inside surfaces are > scrubbed free of as much bacteria as possible, whether beneficial > bacteria or not. They can't afford to give a tank laden with any kind > of bacteria to new arrivals that was used for a week by a bioload of > fish that is generally too large for these stock tanks. They may > easily have 100 Neons in a 20 gallon long, but because most of the > fish are sold long before even the ammonia can spike, they don't > concern themselves with cycling, and they must set these tanks up > thoroughly cleaned out and with fresh water all the time, for large > bioloads of imports. > > A lone Betta in a 10 gallon tank will not create anything near even a > stressful ammount of ammonia before this amount fully cycles -- and > I'm not advocating cycling a tank with live fish -- the bioload is > just too small here to be of much consequence, as a single small fish > such as a Betta will not produce an amount of ammonia in a 10 gallon > tank, that can build up to any appreciable amount at all before it's > converted. > > Hope this helps your decision. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > and > > lay eggs again. > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > a few tanks. > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > Amber > >._,___ > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52560	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

You only need to use salt all the time if you're keeping freshwater fish that prefer some salt in their tank, such as Molly's, Platy's, etc. Even then those fish will easily adapt to straight freshwater and don't require the use of salt all the time, they would just prefer it. There's no reason to use it year round for most freshwater fish. Amber On 11/8/2011 12:13 PM, jasadell wrote: > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a > treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should > this ratio be kept all of the time? > > JD > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52561	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/8/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

Hi JD, I can only speak from experience about Carps but I would never add salt to the water of healthy fish simply as a tonic. The downside being that if you needed to treat anytime then you would need just that much more salt concentration due to the fish having been acclimatised to it already at lower levels. With a salt-free environment if you need to treat anything you can nuke parasites & lesions far quicker. I know opinion is split about this matter among aquarists but this is just my preference. John*<o)))< * On 8 November 2011 21:13, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a > treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this > ratio be kept all of the time? > > JD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52563	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Ram Babies!!!!

Bill, Then, did you know \\Steve// Szabo? He was a member of the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society. By now, as you've probably discovered, you must have found out that even infertile eggs will remain clear, and without being fungused, until a full 2 days have passed. Keep us posted on the progress of them. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Ray.. I am a member of PVAS, although not a very active member... I got my rams at their auction this past summer.  They really do have their act together.  I belong to 4 or 5 forums and am a moderator on AquaticFriendsUnited.forumotion.com  that pretty much take up my time plus spend way too much time blogging on the politics of the day.  > Our forum is a break-away from fishbox.  We didn't care for the heavy handed tactics of the owner nor his intolerance of keepers of hybrids.  I now know of 4 other forums that have formed due to his (Kory) actions on his forum.   > Day 2 on the angel fry.. So far only TWO, oops Three infertile eggs!.. > Bill in Va.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 6:56 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > >   > Bill, > > Go right ahead and post it if you think it will help some of your local club's members. BTW, would you happen to belong to the Potomac Valley Aquarium Society? Since this pair prefers spawning on plant leaves, can I assume that you have the pair raise the fry -- or do you remove the leaf to another tank? > > I know a couple of breeders with fairly large breeding facilities, who have their pairs raise the fry in planted tanks. It works out well if large tanks can be provided for each pair (and all their growing fry) -- provided they don't eat them < g >. > > One possible major drawback of moving the eggs to a planted (gravel bottom) tank is that once the wrigglers fall off of the leaves or slate, and fall onto the gravel, the parents aren't there to continually scoop them back up and place them back onto the spawning site (where they often fall off again -- and again). Wrigglers on gravel can otherwise fall between the grains, sometimes enough of a distance down that they can't find their way out when they become free swimming. Just one more reason to have a bare bottom rearing tank. If you could supply the wrigglers (on the leaf or slate) with a saucer to hold these spawning sites, which would catch any fallen ones, this would solve that problem but few hobbyists think of that. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Ray, thanks for taking the time to respond in such depth... I'd like permission to re-post it on my local fish club forum... Credits to you of course.   Only one glitch in your advice in my case.. These guys love spawning on my amz. swords and even on jungle val!.. When using the val the last time, they covered over 8 inches of stem!.. Kinda hard to reverse the slate!  <grin>.. I've got a well seasoned 10G set up.. well planted.. a bit of algae.. sponge filter..That should hold them more than the suggested 2-3 days shouldn't it? > > Plus I have used decaped BBS.. and egg yolk and daphnia?.. Adequate substitution?  Again, thanks for the advice.  Bill in Va.   > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 3:24 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > >   > > Bill, > > > > Congrats on your spawn of Platinum Blue Pearlscales. There are all too few Pearlscale Angels in the hobby today compared to only a few years ago. I don't know what happened to these strains. Could just be that those breeders having only just so much limited space are concentrating on these newer strains, like Pinoy, to make the extra buck. > > > > I will say that Pearlscales won't tolerate much inbreeding as, unless you have a top notch strain of them to start with, there's a flaw in many of the strains' genetic make up which increases in deformity and which appears to be on the same allele as the gene for their (pearl) scales -- and that is the lack of one or both ventral fins to develop. Most strains other than Pearlscales will be fine with inbreeding them to 5 generations before they need to be crossed to their distant cousins in a line breeding program, but you can seldom breed that many generation with Pearlscales and get away with some percentage of them having this defect. Perhaps this has something to do with their relative scarcity lately. > > > > Anyway, my first piece of advice (at any stage), would be to lower the temperature to 80 o. I'd like to know why you're keeping them at 84 o, as this is out of their normal temperature range. A species being maintained out of their temperature always experiences some stress which weakens them. Anywhere from 78 o to 80 o is fine for Angels to breed at. When they're in prime condition, and are insistent upon spawning, they will even do so as low as 72 o -- not that I'm recommending anything near that for consistent spawning, but just to show you an example. If you do decide on lowering the temperature to a more normal setting for them, do so slowly now that they're already up to 84 o. > > > > I use 2.5 gallon tanks for hatching out any small to medium size Cichlids' spawns that I deem necessary to be removed from the parents to obtain the best yield. This goes for Angels as well as it does for Rams. I find that 2.5 gallon tanks are ideal for hatching out the size of these spawns, which can average about 250 fry from well-conditioned pairs. At times though, I'll place the spawning site -- a medium size flatish oval rock for Rams or a slate for Angels -- directly into the rearing tank for hatching. In any case, I seldom do many more than one or two feedings for the fry in the 2.5 gallon tank before moving them to a 20 gallon long -- which is my standard size for raising fry up to a month (5 weeks, at most) before transferring them to 50 gallon tanks. > > > > There's really no point in trying to keep them in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than the first day, although I do sometimes wait until the second day when I'm tight for space. I do prefer to give them at least their first feeding in the 2.5 before moving them to the 20 long -- but they are not transferred until 3 hours after they eat. When trying to keep fry in a 2.5 gallon tank any more than 2 days, the ammonia will build up unless you have a ready (cycled) sponge filter on hand, which is next to impossible to continually have when doing a lot of spawnings needing a fresh environment. > > > > The first food I give Angelfish fry is newly hatched BBS -- one of the Utah (Great Salt Lake) types, however, I feed only the smaller nauplii of the San Francisco Bay brine shrimp to Rams as these fry aren't nearly as large as the average Angelfish fry. You'll note I mentioned "average" Angelfish fry, as some Angel strains produce smaller than average size eggs (and then, of course smaller fry). > > > > Micro worms are a good first food for Rams also, but as Angel fry tend to hang in mid-tank, they don't find the micro worms (which sink to the bottom) as easily. They are best fed with a food that will continually circulate before them -- such as BBS -- when using a airstone with a low to moderate airstream. > > > > Getting back to your Angel eggs, I always turn the slate around (upside down) in the 2.5 when I lean it against the side of that tank. With the eggs on the rear side of the slate facing the tank side on an angle, much less of any kind of debris can settle on them to cause fungus. And . . . when fungus does occur, which it will almost invariably do to at least some small extent (even with the use of Acriflavin), because seldom is every egg fertilized, the hatching fry (wrigglers) will have the opportunity to hang free of any fungused eggs rather than having no other choice except to sit in the middle of the mess if the slate is kept in the normal position. Depending upon the extent of the fungusing of the infertile eggs, wrigglers having no other choice than to sit in the middle of this condition may even be smothered over by encroaching fungus or on some occasions can attack the egg sacks of otherwise viable fry. > > > > If you ever decide on breeding Albino Angels, APR (artificial plankton & rotifers) is an absolute must as the first food for the fry -- kept in solution, circulating -- with frequent PWC's to remove the previous feedings before feeding anew. Oh, I almost forgot to mention -- for best growth rate of the fry, they should ideally be fed 5 times a day. Of course not everyone can do this, but any number of feedings up to 5 times a day are increasingly beneficial. After 5 times a day, there's little extra benefit they'll receive that will make a sixth feeding that much worthwhile. although I know a couple of breeders that do get some extra growth with feeding them six times a day. This goes for Rams as well. Let me also mention, not to feed any of the free-swimming fry (of any Cichlid) their first feeding until ALL the wrigglers are free-swimming. Feeding before the straggler wrigglers have the chance to swim to the surface to fill their air bladder may > > result in belly-sliders. > > > > While I'm not sure exactly what kind of advice you were looking for -- as you didn't specify -- I hope I was able to give you some pointers that were helpful. If there's anything more specific you'd like to know, just ask. At 80 o, Angel fry take just about 3 days to hatch. Then they'll take another 3 1/2 -- to 3 3/4 days to free-swim. At 78 o, they'll take 4 to 5 hours longer to free swim. > > > > Oh yeah, in trying to think of other advice I can offer, which I almost forgot. There are some Angel breeders who insist on using wide-mouth gallon jars for hatching -- and who will then feed them in these jars. You can't expect to give the fry more than two feedings (if that) at the most in these jars before the excess BBS will start fouling the water -- AND, it's almost inevitable that in trying to supply the fry with as much food as they'll eat while not wanting to feed too little, there is often at least some excess BBS left in their water column. I don't see the purpose of gallon jars for Angel fry. I've often heard that in order to ensure that the fry can find the food, that they be placed in tanks no larger than 10 gallons to start out with. This is complete hog-wash, as I've been starting out Angelfish fry in 20 gallon longs for nearly 60 years of breeding Angels -- and I've yet to starve one fry because of it. Just watching them, it's > easy > > to see that they're all easily finding their food which is constantly circulating by them at feeding time with the use of an airstone. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > > > Ray.. I'd love to read a detailed step by step routine you used for breeding rams.. You mentioned 2.5 gal for fry to 2 days ..possibly 3...then?..... I'm sitting on a freshly laid batch of Platinum Blue Pearlscale Angel eggs, less than 24 hrs ago.. at a temp of 84.... What would be your advice once at wiggler stage or free-swimmers?.Bill in Va.    > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Ray <sevenspringss@> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 10:23 AM > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Ram Babies!!!! > > > > > > > > >   > > > Hi Clare, > > > > > > Good to hear from you -- and so glad to see that you still have surviving wrigglers. I see you removed some fry to the hatchery and also left some fry with the parents. A good move towards helping to preserve at least some of them. As you most probably know, the parents may eat the fry yet, and may do so at any stage, especially as they're a young pair (and yes, constant removal of the fry over many generations will promote a loss in pairs' protective instinct to where they may eat the fry almost every time). There's the problem also of the gravel grains being too large and allowing fry to get lost down into the lower layers as they continue to wiggle, to the point that they'll never find their way out. For this reason, I'd advise either having finer-grained gravel or no gravel at all (or removing the rock altogether). As I did mention previously though, a substitute spawning site (another similar rock) should always replace the one you > removed. > > > > > > I'm still concerned about this hatchery, as being designed for isolating livebearer females to release her fry into, but since some wrigglers are there, I'd strongly suggest doing as Bill Maier (William M) advises and put some sponge material across the outlet to prevent any fry from being washed back into the tank. Also, as Bill says, get a 3-way air valve to bleed off the excess air, so that the flow can be reduced even more. Still, with only half a gallon of water -- and your not being able to have any kind of larger water flow because of the size of the fry -- this small amount of water can easily build up organic waste products quite fast if you overfeed them, and this is a very tricky thing to do for a beginner -- to know how much to feed. > > > > > > Some breeders use gallon jars to hatch their fry out in, but then, they don't keep the fry in this small container; the fry go right into a 10 or 20 gallon (long) tank. When heating the entire hatchery room, I find 2 1/2 gallon tanks with an airstone to be ideal in hatching out any Cichlid fry since it provides adequate space and won't need a separate heater. Then too, even with this much water, I've found that even with the most careful feeding, the fry can't be maintained in these tanks for any more than two day (three days, tops) or they'll start dying off. Fully adult Rams can have between 200 and 300 fry, even though they're such small fish. They can reach nearly 3" long, and their eggs are small. I do wish you well in using this breeder box, as I'd enjoy seeing you raise some of these fish. You may want to reconsider not keeping them in the box too long, and to transfer them to at least a 10 gallon tank as soon afterwards as you can. > > > > > > As I suspected, I note your Rams spawned as early as Wednesday, which would make sense if they were hatched Friday, at the temperature you kept them at. Again, I commend you for maintaining your Rams at 84 o, especially as not very many beginners are astute enough to do so. When they're collected in the wild, their water (Rio Orinoco) is often at least 84 o, and sometimes up to 88 o or more. This fish enjoys warmer temperatures. > > > > > > Good to hear you're having so much success with your longfin albino Plecs. This is a fish that's always in demand. Shipping fish is not hard to do (as a wholesaler of Rift Lake Cichlids, I used to ship fish all over the country and as far as Australia when these fish first came in, in the 1960's and '70's). I'll explain the packing and shipping of them if you'd like, whenever you're ready to sell some. > > > > > > I'm pleased to see that you take it upon yourself to do the proper research on the fish you intend to work with. All too few hobbyist -- and especially beginners -- fail to even get a book. While books may occasionally have a mistake or two in them, they are one of the best sources for authoritive information. The author and the publisher invest a lot of knowledge, time and money into them to help them sell as good as they do. There's often a lot of erroneous information posted on the various internet sites, by people not really know that much. As I've said here a number of times in the past, anyone can start a website, making it look authoritative, yet they don't really need to know much at all. In fact, we'll often see many copycat sites, written word for word in using information from other sites, which are very inaccurate to begin with, so it's hard for the beginner to know what to believe. To this I say, take these sites with a grain of > salt > > > until you can know the difference between what right and wrong on them; don't believe all you see on these sites, but learn for yourself, otherwise it can lead to disaster. > > > > > > Actually, I didn't expect you to write to me, as it looked like you preferred to go with the knowledge you read in your literature you referred to and the LFS guru. I didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, and that's what it appeared to me happened in your case. I'm glad that you have that guru to fall back on (and glad you wrote me), but I just wanted to say that no one can know everything and that includes me, even though I've been in the hobby since 1947 and started breeding fish in 1953. As a moderator here (and on several other fish groups), I won't write anything unless I KNOW it's fact, and you can take that to the bank. I am not about to post anything that may be in the least questionable as I know everything here impacts all the members, no matter how much or how little they may know. This is the reason that I found that I must correct any misconceptions about what you posted, but as you've stated for one thing, that your temperature is 84 > o > > > that explains the 48 hour hatching which would not ordinarily occur. > > > > > > BTW, with Rams being first introduced into the hobby in 1948, I was breeding them in 1953, so I know what's needed to be successful in raising them. Nice to see you're "stoked" about them; they're magnificent fish. Sounds like your LFS guy has a bit of knowledge when it comes to fish, which would be expected if he was helping at his mom's store since '65. I started my retail fish store in 1969, just before I started importing Rift Lake Cichlids from Africa and Germany to distribute here, but I'm retired now. I'm glad you found this group; it's always good to have several different sources of info to weigh, even though I'm sure your LFS guy can always help you. > > > > > > Yes, please do keep us all filled in on the progress of your fry -- and don't hesitate to ask anything or run by us anything your guru said, in getting a second opinion here. Yes, I certainly did notice your pics -- I approved them for posting. Very interesting shots. > > > > > > One last thing for now before I sign off, as you'll be needing to feed these fry very soon. Since you don't want the bother of hatching out brine shrimp, Ken's Fish has a product called Ocean Nutrition Instant Baby Brine Shrimp. It's newly hatched brine shrimp (I'm sure, non-living) in a jar -- in steriled water, so that it will keep from going bad. Once opened, you need to refrigerate it, but that's like any other food. He advertises it as 20 grams -- at $7.95 (plus shipping) -- and consists of 1.5 million artemia nauplii. I'd suggest ordering this from him today as he'll send it right out tomorrow morning. There are two other fry foods you could look into, both of which I've already emailed him about for you, and will let you know what I here from him (or you could contact him yourself). One excellent tiny fry food is APR (artificial plankton & rotifers), which I believe he carries, and the other is ZM-000 which I've seen advertised as being > > > sold in the UK; a very fine (100 microns, I think) sized food -- both of these latter ones being powdered (dry) foods. > > > > > > Best of luck, > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, Ray: > > > > > > > > Thanks! I am pretty stoked about them & thought for sure last night that the eggs were goners. I am also glad that I got to leave some of the babies with the parents too - will be able to compare growth, etc with my little control group in the hatchery versus the fry in the parent tank - I should learn a bunch. I got a good magnifying glass today to watch their yolk absorption progress to know exactly when to start feed them the BBS, too. > > > > > > > > My rams spawned sometime during Weds PM/early Thurs AM - as I reported seeing the eggs for the first time Thurs AM. Regarding temperature, I did raise my ram tank to 84 degrees after the last spawning activity so I knew they would hatch quickly. Also, all my tanks are in a room that used to be a garage attached to the main house and the temp out there can cause a 1-2 degree flux if the nights are chilly (luckily i am in California), so I keep everyone on the warmer side in the colder months and adjust accordingly for warmer months. All my tanks are flourishing & my albino longfin plecs are breeding out of control. Next thing I have to learn to do is how to ship fish or separate the pair as the 40G they are in is over capacity LOL > > > > > > > > I try to do a lot of research when I set out to do anything trying to make sure I am not making any major mistakes....I will be more explicit with details next time I post about this kind of activity :-) There is a great deal of bad as well as good advice out there to read - it is good to have this group and my lfs guy to bounce things off of. He's been doing this since his mom started their aquatics store in 1965 & I trust his advice. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your help and I will keep you posted on the fry's progress if that's okay :-) Oh, and I am sure you noticed I posted pics as well in my Cobraladys folder.... > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Congrats on your Ram wrigglers. If I may assume, I might guess you have been keeping their temperature near 80 o or close to it (78 o or 79 o ?). If different than this, please advise. > > > > > > > > > > If kept at 78 o -- 80 o though, they will have needed 3 days (72 hours) to hatch -- not 48 hours. This means the parents must have spawned on 11/2 (Wednesday), not Thursday. > > > > > > > > > > Your comments are a bit strange, as every book I have states that Ramirezi eggs -- and all other eggs -- hatch at a rate dependent on the temperature (the rate of their metabolism). The higher the temperature, the faster the hatching time. The lower the temperature, the slower the hatching time. In general, most all substrate spawning Cichlid eggs, including Rams, will hatch in 72 hours when kept at the above temperature. > > > > > > > > > > If, however, you're keeping their tank where Rams should be kept at, at 84 o, THEN they WILL hatch in 48 hours -- but it's rare that the beginner hobbyist knows to do this or knows that Rams actually require a higher temperature than most other Cichlids. If you're keeping them at their proper temperature, I congratulate you; you must have done your homework. > > > > > > > > > > As for on-line literature about the hatching time of Ram eggs, a fast Google shows anywhere between 40 hours, 48 hours, 60 hours, 2 Days and 5 days. This again goes back to the temperature they're being kept at. I'm not really sure what you mean by "all literature," when many sources I've read are all over the scale -- but they're all consistent in saying that it depends on temperature (and that no Cichlid egg can hatch in 48 hours if kept at the average 80 o that most are kept at). > > > > > > > > > > Just FYI, these wrigglers should free-swim in about 3 1/2 to 4 days, depending upon temperature; possibly sooner if you're keeping them warmer, at the 84 o they should be kept at. Be prepared to start feeding them no later than this time. They'll be swimming much sooner than 8 - 10 days. > > > > > > > > > > Best of luck in raising them! > > > > > > > > > > Ray (Moderator) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Well - as it is said "life finds a way"... > > > > > > > > > > > > Checked my ram parents this AM and found that I had wrigglers in the gravel near the rock that had been cleared of eggs yesterday! The eggs that must have fallen off the rock are hatched (48 hours after first finding them, as all the literature & my LFS guy said) and so I gently siphoned some of the fry into the hatchery and left some with the parents to help them hone their parenting skills :-) They are sooooo tiny! > > > > > > > > > > > > Guess I have 8-10 days or so before the fry absorb their egg sacs and need the baby brine shrimp - I am so excited I can hardly stand it....looking forward to how this all plays out - will post pics soon! > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for all the help so far .... thought you would all like to know :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Clare > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52564	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Amber, At this point I don't think we know which is inaccurate (or by how much), the heater or the thermometer. Have you tried switching the thermometer from the 55 gallon to the fry tank? I know that sometimes the heater can be up to 2 o off from the setting you set it on, but I don't recall quality heaters being off 4 degrees. I'm thinking that maybe the fry tank's thermometer may be off a bit too. If the 55's thermometer reads 82 o in the fry tank, then yes turn the heater down a bit so that the temperature of the fry tank drops to 80 o. The somewhat higher temperature is not detrimental to the fry, but it's unnecssary. Just as with Discus though, Angel fry are best kept a little higher than the adults -- so, no lower than 80 o. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Ray just one quick question: > what temp should I keep the fry at? I set the heater to 78 and I noticed > the thermometer was reading just around 82 degrees, which is a couple of > degrees higher than the 55 gallon the parents are spawning in. > Is this an okay temp for the fry or should I lower it back down to 80... > or even lower than that? > > Amber > > On 11/8/2011 4:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > Amber, > > > > Yes, you should remove the older fry. Occasionally, we might get a > > pair which will tolerate their previous spawn in the presence of their > > new spawn, but it's not often. Usually, and especially as your pair is > > no longer taking care of the older fry, Angelfish pairs may see them > > as a danger to their new eggs/fry, and feel the need to attack or even > > kill them if they get too close to the spawning site -- just as > > they'de do with any other fish. > > > > For 4 - 5 fry just reaching the size of starting to look like > > Angelfish, there's really no need to place them in a cycled tank, as > > their combined waste is absolutely minimal. Any cycling that will take > > place as a result of the miniscule amount of ammonia given off by > > these few minute fish (and there will always be cycling in the > > presence of ammonia) is impossible to amount to much more than 0.008 > > ppm) in a 10 gallon tank, IF that. There's no need for any concern > > here. Even so, with 0.008 being cycled and peaking at around 0.02 ppm, > > that still practically zero. The cycle will take place with > > practically zero effect on the fish as it's negligable. > > > > As you may have read, I've been breeding Angels for about 60 years > > (not that I'm still not eager to learn something -- I AM), and I've > > never used a "cycled" tank (20 gallon long) to transfer any Cichlid > > fry to -- as entire spawns -- and that includes especially Angels. The > > bioload is so infinitesimally small that it's of no concern. As the > > fish grow (and as there are weekly PWC's done), constant complete > > cycling of their tank grows, remains and increases with them > > gradually, so that, at all times the fry are in a fully cycled tank > > from the time their bioload even starts to make any impact. > > > > Do you think that fish wholesalers even have the opportunity of > > putting their weekly newly arrived shipments of fish in cycled tanks, > > if they need to clean out and give these new arrivals fresh water -- > > even if they wanted to? No, they just can't do it. They will however > > try to always rinse out the filter media of as much debris as possible > > and use the cycled filter, but it's not as though the tank itself is > > cycled yet. There's no substrate, and all of the inside surfaces are > > scrubbed free of as much bacteria as possible, whether beneficial > > bacteria or not. They can't afford to give a tank laden with any kind > > of bacteria to new arrivals that was used for a week by a bioload of > > fish that is generally too large for these stock tanks. They may > > easily have 100 Neons in a 20 gallon long, but because most of the > > fish are sold long before even the ammonia can spike, they don't > > concern themselves with cycling, and they must set these tanks up > > thoroughly cleaned out and with fresh water all the time, for large > > bioloads of imports. > > > > A lone Betta in a 10 gallon tank will not create anything near even a > > stressful ammount of ammonia before this amount fully cycles -- and > > I'm not advocating cycling a tank with live fish -- the bioload is > > just too small here to be of much consequence, as a single small fish > > such as a Betta will not produce an amount of ammonia in a 10 gallon > > tank, that can build up to any appreciable amount at all before it's > > converted. > > > > Hope this helps your decision. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > > and > > > lay eggs again. > > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > > a few tanks. > > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > > > Amber > > >._,___ > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52565	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

Just as Donna states, salt is not needed for freshwater fishes. With reference to Rift Lake Cichlids though, while again, salt is not needed, we used to use marine salt for them 40 years ago only as we were taking advantage of the water-hardening effects of the magnesium compounds in it -- and at the same time the marine salt mix added TDS (total dissolved solids) to the water -- but this was a bit removed from their natural habititat even though they still thrived. I still keep about 25# of marine salt mix on hand for the Rift Lake Cichlids as a "back-up" supply, which I might use at times, but I usually just add SeaChem's Malawi buffer or Tanganyika buffer combined with Kent's liquid stabilizers. I also keep dolomite in their filters. Table salt is definitely of no use for these fish though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this ratio be kept all of the time? > > JD >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52566	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

Keep an eye out for any fry you may have missed, which you said still could be in the plants somewhere. They sound nicely colored. I can see a problem though, if the pair decides to spawn again, You won't have the 10 gallon available yet to put the new fry in. Time for another tank < g > ? Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Okay I filled the 10 gallon with water from the Angelfish tank, then > moved a big handfull of hornwort from that tank to the 10 gallon as well > as some duckweed and snails (they rode along). > I only found 2 fry left and moved them both to the 10 gallon. I didn't > have a stand to put the 10 gallon on, so I had to put it on the floor, > but it has a full hood with no gaps, and I put all of hubby's tackle > boxes around the sides/front of the tank so the cats can't sit and > stare/tap the glass and scare the 2 fry. > Both of the fry that survived are Koi coloring like the father. > > Amber > > > On 11/7/2011 11:52 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > A lot of cichlids with just a handful of fry like that will just eat > > them and start over, so if you're attached to them, I'd say move them. > > > > If you can put in some gravel and decorations from a cycled tank that > > can really help jumpstart the new tank, I've done similar things and > > it seemed like they didn't really cycle much at all, especially if you > > put in plants too. It's not like the tank will be overstocked with > > just one fish in there. > > > > I have a 6 cup glass bowl right now with 6 cory catfish fry and > > they've been doing fine in a heated room with no filter or aerator for > > several weeks. I change the water every 2 days. They have duckweed on > > the top for infusoria and to use up ammonia (and I'm feeding them). > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > > and > > > lay eggs again. > > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > > a few tanks. > > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52567	From: haecklers	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

If the water isn't circulating well enough there could be dead spots that are colder than the water near the thermostat on the thermometer. I had that problem in my 30g tall and had to add an hob filter to circulate the water better, now the water is only 2 degrees off from what I set the heater to. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Amber, > > At this point I don't think we know which is inaccurate (or by how much), the heater or the thermometer. Have you tried switching the thermometer from the 55 gallon to the fry tank? I know that sometimes the heater can be up to 2 o off from the setting you set it on, but I don't recall quality heaters being off 4 degrees. I'm thinking that maybe the fry tank's thermometer may be off a bit too. If the 55's thermometer reads 82 o in the fry tank, then yes turn the heater down a bit so that the temperature of the fry tank drops to 80 o. The somewhat higher temperature is not detrimental to the fry, but it's unnecssary. Just as with Discus though, Angel fry are best kept a little higher than the adults -- so, no lower than 80 o. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > Ray just one quick question: > > what temp should I keep the fry at? I set the heater to 78 and I noticed > > the thermometer was reading just around 82 degrees, which is a couple of > > degrees higher than the 55 gallon the parents are spawning in. > > Is this an okay temp for the fry or should I lower it back down to 80... > > or even lower than that? > > > > Amber > > > > On 11/8/2011 4:57 AM, Ray wrote: > > > > > > Amber, > > > > > > Yes, you should remove the older fry. Occasionally, we might get a > > > pair which will tolerate their previous spawn in the presence of their > > > new spawn, but it's not often. Usually, and especially as your pair is > > > no longer taking care of the older fry, Angelfish pairs may see them > > > as a danger to their new eggs/fry, and feel the need to attack or even > > > kill them if they get too close to the spawning site -- just as > > > they'de do with any other fish. > > > > > > For 4 - 5 fry just reaching the size of starting to look like > > > Angelfish, there's really no need to place them in a cycled tank, as > > > their combined waste is absolutely minimal. Any cycling that will take > > > place as a result of the miniscule amount of ammonia given off by > > > these few minute fish (and there will always be cycling in the > > > presence of ammonia) is impossible to amount to much more than 0.008 > > > ppm) in a 10 gallon tank, IF that. There's no need for any concern > > > here. Even so, with 0.008 being cycled and peaking at around 0.02 ppm, > > > that still practically zero. The cycle will take place with > > > practically zero effect on the fish as it's negligable. > > > > > > As you may have read, I've been breeding Angels for about 60 years > > > (not that I'm still not eager to learn something -- I AM), and I've > > > never used a "cycled" tank (20 gallon long) to transfer any Cichlid > > > fry to -- as entire spawns -- and that includes especially Angels. The > > > bioload is so infinitesimally small that it's of no concern. As the > > > fish grow (and as there are weekly PWC's done), constant complete > > > cycling of their tank grows, remains and increases with them > > > gradually, so that, at all times the fry are in a fully cycled tank > > > from the time their bioload even starts to make any impact. > > > > > > Do you think that fish wholesalers even have the opportunity of > > > putting their weekly newly arrived shipments of fish in cycled tanks, > > > if they need to clean out and give these new arrivals fresh water -- > > > even if they wanted to? No, they just can't do it. They will however > > > try to always rinse out the filter media of as much debris as possible > > > and use the cycled filter, but it's not as though the tank itself is > > > cycled yet. There's no substrate, and all of the inside surfaces are > > > scrubbed free of as much bacteria as possible, whether beneficial > > > bacteria or not. They can't afford to give a tank laden with any kind > > > of bacteria to new arrivals that was used for a week by a bioload of > > > fish that is generally too large for these stock tanks. They may > > > easily have 100 Neons in a 20 gallon long, but because most of the > > > fish are sold long before even the ammonia can spike, they don't > > > concern themselves with cycling, and they must set these tanks up > > > thoroughly cleaned out and with fresh water all the time, for large > > > bioloads of imports. > > > > > > A lone Betta in a 10 gallon tank will not create anything near even a > > > stressful ammount of ammonia before this amount fully cycles -- and > > > I'm not advocating cycling a tank with live fish -- the bioload is > > > just too small here to be of much consequence, as a single small fish > > > such as a Betta will not produce an amount of ammonia in a 10 gallon > > > tank, that can build up to any appreciable amount at all before it's > > > converted. > > > > > > Hope this helps your decision. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to raise > > > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a spot > > > and > > > > lay eggs again. > > > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I rearranged > > > > a few tanks. > > > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but it's not > > > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG filter, but > > > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with the UG > > > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already cycled, > > > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there and cycle > > > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > > > > > Amber > > > >._,___ > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52568	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

The shaking of the fish by the heater might indicate the onset of Ich, although the scratching could also be caused by high nitrates. If you see any salt-like specks by now, on the fins or bodies, then I don't need to tell you that you do have Ich. 81 o is not a good tempertaure to treat Ich at, if you're going to do the heat treatment. This will only serve to increase their metabolism, making them more virulent. If you're going to treat with medications though, 81 o to 82 o is fine as with speeding up their metabolism, you'll be making them more vulmerable to the medication, as they'll be more exposed to it. They will be spending less time on the bottom, in the substrate as cysts (where they can't be affected by meds) and more time in the water column where the meds will do them in. No, I don't recommemd any chemical treatment where they can be avoided. For treating Ich (which doesn't need a medication to eradicate it), I much prefer the heat & salt treament with which you bring the temperature up to at least 86 o and add 1 Tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons. Many chemical treatment are able to cause damage to fish -- and I'm not only talking about the scaleless fish which may be killed by the meds. Most Ich treats contain Malachite Green, which is a bit harsh on fish, besides killing off your nitrifying bacteria leaving you with a tank that's no longer cycled. There are a few Ich medications that are much milder for the fish, but at the same time very effective in eliminating Ich -- said to be friendly towards your nitrifying bacteria. Examples of these are Ich Attack and Prevent Ich, both made by Kordon. Salt used for treating Ich is best without containing any anti-caking compounds. While the small amount of iodine in iodized salt should not harm the fish, I prefer to use a salt that's completely free of additives, such as Diamond Crystal Canning/Kosher salt. It comes in a 3# box for about $1.89. You'd need to add 25 Tablespoons of salt for the 125 gallon tank, minus the water that any substrate and rocks you may have in there displaces. You may only have 110 gallons or so of water in the tank. You can add the salt all at one time, slowly, as this is a very minor change to their environment. You should dissolve the salt first, in a container of water before adding it to the aquarium. Then, pour the solution into the tank where turbulence occurs, such as near the outlet of your filter, to ensure that it circulates fairly evenly thoughout the tank. Dumping it into the tank at any place that's fairly still, and without you're otherwise mixing it with the tank water will result in it just dropping to the bottom as though it were some thick liquid, as salted water is heavier than salt-free water. Maintain the heat until at least two days after seeing the last signs of Ich on the fish. Then, drop the temperature slowly. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > Now it's my turn to deal with ick in my 125 gal African cichlid tank. It seems to be in the early stages since I'm only seeing scratching right now. Although 2 of them seem to be hanging by the heater shaking. What does that indicate? From reading all your emails that raising the temperature and adding aquarium salt should help. My questions are these: > My tank temp right now is 81 degrees. Is that a good temp? > Do you recommend a chemical treatment for ick rather than salt and heat? > Is there a particular brand of salt better than another? > How much should I add to my 125 gal tank? > Should I add it gradually rather than all at one time? > Do I mix it with some aquarium water rather than sprinkling it in? > By my questions can you tell this is my first time dealing with ick? > > I love this group and have been helped so much already. > Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. > > Gail > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52569	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to a good source of light. Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening with her. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > Desire' in Louisiana, > for Elle the koi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52570	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Angelfish Spawn question

I can always move the betta out of his 10 gallon and into a 1 gallon jar I have with just snails/plants in it. So no fear, I have this covered ;) LOL. Amber On 11/9/2011 4:09 AM, Ray wrote: > > Keep an eye out for any fry you may have missed, which you said still > could be in the plants somewhere. They sound nicely colored. I can see > a problem though, if the pair decides to spawn again, You won't have > the 10 gallon available yet to put the new fry in. Time for another > tank < g > ? > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > <arberglund@...> wrote: > > > > Okay I filled the 10 gallon with water from the Angelfish tank, then > > moved a big handfull of hornwort from that tank to the 10 gallon as > well > > as some duckweed and snails (they rode along). > > I only found 2 fry left and moved them both to the 10 gallon. I didn't > > have a stand to put the 10 gallon on, so I had to put it on the floor, > > but it has a full hood with no gaps, and I put all of hubby's tackle > > boxes around the sides/front of the tank so the cats can't sit and > > stare/tap the glass and scare the 2 fry. > > Both of the fry that survived are Koi coloring like the father. > > > > Amber > > > > > > On 11/7/2011 11:52 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > > > A lot of cichlids with just a handful of fry like that will just eat > > > them and start over, so if you're attached to them, I'd say move them. > > > > > > If you can put in some gravel and decorations from a cycled tank that > > > can really help jumpstart the new tank, I've done similar things and > > > it seemed like they didn't really cycle much at all, especially if > you > > > put in plants too. It's not like the tank will be overstocked with > > > just one fish in there. > > > > > > I have a 6 cup glass bowl right now with 6 cory catfish fry and > > > they've been doing fine in a heated room with no filter or aerator > for > > > several weeks. I change the water every 2 days. They have duckweed on > > > the top for infusoria and to use up ammonia (and I'm feeding them). > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Amber Berglund > > > <arberglund@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Okay so a few weeks ago my Angelfish spawned and mom managed to > raise > > > > 4-5 babies and keep them alive. > > > > Last night/this morning the pair decided it was time to clear a > spot > > > and > > > > lay eggs again. > > > > Should I try to remove the older fry? > > > > I don't have a 10 gallon ready for the fry, but I could if I > rearranged > > > > a few tanks. > > > > I have the 10 gallon with the UG filter sitting dry/empty, but > it's not > > > > cycled. I could move the betta to the 10 gallon with the UG > filter, but > > > > then he'd be in an uncycled tank (which I'd prefer not to do). I can > > > > move some of the gravel from the 29 tall into the 10 gallon with > the UG > > > > filter to get it started cycling, but I'd have to cycle it with the > > > > betta in it. The 10 gallon the betta is currently in is already > cycled, > > > > and just has him in it. So I could possibly put the fry there > and cycle > > > > the other 10 gallon with the betta. > > > > What would you guys do? Leave the babies or move them? > > > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52571	From: jasadell	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

Thanks to all for the feedback. So I had recently treated ick, and now it seems to be in remission. I assume I just continue my PWCs to diminish the salt content. Of course now I can never be rid of all of the salt that was added, no matter how many PWC I do, so there would need to be a bit of guesswork if I ever had to add salt to treat ick in the future. I don't suppose any sort of test will show me the salt content? Otherwise how is this handled? Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Just as Donna states, salt is not needed for freshwater fishes. With reference to Rift Lake Cichlids though, while again, salt is not needed, we used to use marine salt for them 40 years ago only as we were taking advantage of the water-hardening effects of the magnesium compounds in it -- and at the same time the marine salt mix added TDS (total dissolved solids) to the water -- but this was a bit removed from their natural habititat even though they still thrived. > > I still keep about 25# of marine salt mix on hand for the Rift Lake Cichlids as a "back-up" supply, which I might use at times, but I usually just add SeaChem's Malawi buffer or Tanganyika buffer combined with Kent's liquid stabilizers. I also keep dolomite in their filters. Table salt is definitely of no use for these fish though. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this ratio be kept all of the time? > > > > JD > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52572	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

I bought more plants on Monday and added to Elle's aquarium. I think she seems more 'at ease' now that she her aquarium isn't bare like it was. She's curious about everything and has been checking things out. I've only seen her 'flash' a few times since adding the new directions, but I find she's doing it less than before- at least when I am around. I got the Dr. Tim's One and Only yesterday and added it to the tank water- following the directions on bottle. I didn't do a full testing yet of the water, but did check the nitrite level twice - once a few hours after adding the water, and once today. The reading is still showing fairly high at 2.0 ppm. If the Dr. Tim's stuff works, it would be reading 0, correct? I know that there was a chance of the package possibly hitting weather that might make it ineffective but I surely hope that is not the case here. How would I contact Dr. Tim directly for another bottle? (I remember Amber mentioning being able to do this) Should I have done another PWC prior to adding the Dr. Tim's? Ray- do you think I should treat her anyway? Just in case? If there is a medication free way to do this (since I'm not 100 percent sure of a parasite), then I would love to learn about it. Not that it would affect the Dr. Tim's stuff, since I'm thinking it mustn't have been effective by the time it reached me. :-( It probably wouldn't hurt to use the medication (the ones you mentioned in a previous email- if I can find them..I haven't had the time to thoroughly search online for it yet) but I'd like to try the med free way first- just to be sure. Desire' in LA (the state, not the city) ----- Original Message ----- From: Ray To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:14 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to a good source of light. Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening with her. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > Desire' in Louisiana, > for Elle the koi > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52573	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

Hi JD, That is good news indeed, make sure to keep the salt at full strength until a few days after you see the last white speck as you want to make sure you get all the free-swimmers too. Yes-you are right about the PWCs to diminish the salt once the treatment is done but don't worry about the residual salt that is remaining in your water. Although salt does not evaporate even with small PWCs you will soon have diluted it down to minuscule levels that are negligible should you need to re-do any treatment in the future. Also, just to clarify-if you do a PWC during the salt treatment then add back the proportionate amount of salt to the water that you removed. After I have had to use salt in my Goldfish tank it quickly goes down simply because I do big water changes every few days. There is, I believe some type of salinity meter & I think it is marketed for use in swimming pools rather than ponds but that's about all I can tell you, I'm sure someone on here will be more clued up about this than I am! John*<o)))< * On 9 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > Thanks to all for the feedback. So I had recently treated ick, and now it > seems to be in remission. I assume I just continue my PWCs to diminish the > salt content. Of course now I can never be rid of all of the salt that was > added, no matter how many PWC I do, so there would need to be a bit of > guesswork if I ever had to add salt to treat ick in the future. I don't > suppose any sort of test will show me the salt content? Otherwise how is > this handled? > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > Just as Donna states, salt is not needed for freshwater fishes. With > reference to Rift Lake Cichlids though, while again, salt is not needed, we > used to use marine salt for them 40 years ago only as we were taking > advantage of the water-hardening effects of the magnesium compounds in it > -- and at the same time the marine salt mix added TDS (total dissolved > solids) to the water -- but this was a bit removed from their natural > habititat even though they still thrived. > > > > I still keep about 25# of marine salt mix on hand for the Rift Lake > Cichlids as a "back-up" supply, which I might use at times, but I usually > just add SeaChem's Malawi buffer or Tanganyika buffer combined with Kent's > liquid stabilizers. I also keep dolomite in their filters. Table salt is > definitely of no use for these fish though. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a > treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this > ratio be kept all of the time? > > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52574	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

If water chemistry need to be altered (increase GH or KH) I find baking soda and/or Epsom salts to be preferable to NaCl. -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:02 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquarium Salt Just as Donna states, salt is not needed for freshwater fishes. With reference to Rift Lake Cichlids though, while again, salt is not needed, we used to use marine salt for them 40 years ago only as we were taking advantage of the water-hardening effects of the magnesium compounds in it -- and at the same time the marine salt mix added TDS (total dissolved solids) to the water -- but this was a bit removed from their natural habititat even though they still thrived. I still keep about 25# of marine salt mix on hand for the Rift Lake Cichlids as a "back-up" supply, which I might use at times, but I usually just add SeaChem's Malawi buffer or Tanganyika buffer combined with Kent's liquid stabilizers. I also keep dolomite in their filters. Table salt is definitely of no use for these fish though. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this ratio be kept all of the time? > > JD > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife ˇ A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸¸.><((((ş>.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸¸.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸><((((ş> ¸.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸. , .ˇ´Ż`ˇ..><((((ş> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <ş((((><.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸¸.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸<ş((((><¸.ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸. , .ˇ´Ż`ˇ..<ş((((><ˇ´Ż`ˇ.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52575	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Check out http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/ To see if there's any info about how long it should take to work, etc. You should also be able to contact him directly from his website. If you treat her now and the one and only was actually starting to work then you risk a chance at killing all the bacteria and starting the cycle all over again, and needing another bottle of One and Only. I would order both if you plan to treat her tank for gill flukes. Amber On 11/9/2011 1:09 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > I bought more plants on Monday and added to Elle's aquarium. I think > she seems more 'at ease' now that she her aquarium isn't bare like it > was. She's curious about everything and has been checking things out. > I've only seen her 'flash' a few times since adding the new > directions, but I find she's doing it less than before- at least when > I am around. > > I got the Dr. Tim's One and Only yesterday and added it to the tank > water- following the directions on bottle. I didn't do a full testing > yet of the water, but did check the nitrite level twice - once a few > hours after adding the water, and once today. The reading is still > showing fairly high at 2.0 ppm. If the Dr. Tim's stuff works, it would > be reading 0, correct? I know that there was a chance of the package > possibly hitting weather that might make it ineffective but I surely > hope that is not the case here. How would I contact Dr. Tim directly > for another bottle? (I remember Amber mentioning being able to do > this) Should I have done another PWC prior to adding the Dr. Tim's? > > Ray- do you think I should treat her anyway? Just in case? If there is > a medication free way to do this (since I'm not 100 percent sure of a > parasite), then I would love to learn about it. Not that it would > affect the Dr. Tim's stuff, since I'm thinking it mustn't have been > effective by the time it reached me. :-( It probably wouldn't hurt to > use the medication (the ones you mentioned in a previous email- if I > can find them..I haven't had the time to thoroughly search online for > it yet) but I'd like to try the med free way first- just to be sure. > > Desire' in LA (the state, not the city) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:14 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle > > In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- > especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked > about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to > hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to > a good source of light. > > Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. > Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her > more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites > and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still > suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday > morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit > "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already > was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying > "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently > dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 > minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this > time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. > > There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll > write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with > Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening > with her. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, > the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH > dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, > if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, > the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard > to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and > they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I > hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did > TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally > starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier > way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard > for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in > yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. > Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back > to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get > to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has > a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size > pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like > that! Very creative. > > > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water > changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- > supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add > more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that > koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her > tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this > week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave > about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very > creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will > monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing > continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing > had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack > of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant > benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also > assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of > course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will > make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, > this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in > case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person > said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being > nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from > there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. > Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' > as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of > odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. > I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body > against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking > for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but > I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things > closely as I have been doing. > > > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to > what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but > wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay > to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have > to medicate for a parasite > > > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > > > Desire' in Louisiana, > > for Elle the koi > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52576	From: Desire' A. Heatherly	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

I was reading on Dr. Tim's website in the comments section for the One and Only that one of the commenters tank took a couple days to cycle- so maybe its not as 'instant' as I assumed as in hours it would be cycled. I don't mind waiting a few days if it takes that amount of time..I am just hoping its still effective after having bought it. Would putting it in the fridge have messed it up? It was in there a few hours..if not, then major goof on my part. Ray mentioned a medication free way of treating Elle. I would like to try that route first. Desire' ----- Original Message ----- From: Amber Berglund To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle Check out http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/ To see if there's any info about how long it should take to work, etc. You should also be able to contact him directly from his website. If you treat her now and the one and only was actually starting to work then you risk a chance at killing all the bacteria and starting the cycle all over again, and needing another bottle of One and Only. I would order both if you plan to treat her tank for gill flukes. Amber On 11/9/2011 1:09 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > I bought more plants on Monday and added to Elle's aquarium. I think > she seems more 'at ease' now that she her aquarium isn't bare like it > was. She's curious about everything and has been checking things out. > I've only seen her 'flash' a few times since adding the new > directions, but I find she's doing it less than before- at least when > I am around. > > I got the Dr. Tim's One and Only yesterday and added it to the tank > water- following the directions on bottle. I didn't do a full testing > yet of the water, but did check the nitrite level twice - once a few > hours after adding the water, and once today. The reading is still > showing fairly high at 2.0 ppm. If the Dr. Tim's stuff works, it would > be reading 0, correct? I know that there was a chance of the package > possibly hitting weather that might make it ineffective but I surely > hope that is not the case here. How would I contact Dr. Tim directly > for another bottle? (I remember Amber mentioning being able to do > this) Should I have done another PWC prior to adding the Dr. Tim's? > > Ray- do you think I should treat her anyway? Just in case? If there is > a medication free way to do this (since I'm not 100 percent sure of a > parasite), then I would love to learn about it. Not that it would > affect the Dr. Tim's stuff, since I'm thinking it mustn't have been > effective by the time it reached me. :-( It probably wouldn't hurt to > use the medication (the ones you mentioned in a previous email- if I > can find them..I haven't had the time to thoroughly search online for > it yet) but I'd like to try the med free way first- just to be sure. > > Desire' in LA (the state, not the city) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:14 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle > > In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- > especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked > about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to > hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to > a good source of light. > > Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. > Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her > more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites > and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still > suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday > morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit > "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already > was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying > "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently > dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 > minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this > time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. > > There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll > write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with > Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening > with her. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, > the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH > dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, > if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, > the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard > to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and > they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I > hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did > TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally > starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier > way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard > for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in > yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. > Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back > to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get > to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has > a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size > pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like > that! Very creative. > > > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water > changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- > supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add > more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that > koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her > tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this > week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave > about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very > creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will > monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing > continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing > had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack > of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant > benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also > assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of > course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will > make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, > this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in > case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person > said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being > nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from > there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. > Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' > as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of > odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. > I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body > against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking > for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but > I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things > closely as I have been doing. > > > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to > what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but > wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay > to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have > to medicate for a parasite > > > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > > > Desire' in Louisiana, > > for Elle the koi > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52577	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Aquarium Salt

Actually, NaCl (table salt) does absolutely nothing to alter either the GH or KH, which is why marine salt was used in the early days of the Rift Lake Cichlid hobby -- in increases the GH (as a result of the magnesium salts). Salt (any salt) will increase the TDS (Total Dissolved Solids), and so, marine salt also increases the TDS, but this was not the main reason for using it. Marine salt is composed of nearly 18% magnesium sulfate, so we don't need to use very much of it to increase the GH, and it's (marine salt) a natural mix of compounds as derived in their proportions from the run-off of rainwater through the world's soils over milenia. Depending on what the TDS are made up of, it may or may not necessarily increase the GH or KH, and NaCl is composed of nothing that will affect either. Many hobbyists use Epsom salts; I use it myself with every PWC on the Rift Lake Cichlids, as it's magnesium sulfate (and will increase the GH). Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) will increase the KH, but is not nearly as stable as calcium carbonate in holding the KH (and pH). Much better off using Aragamite (powdered Aragonite) -- marketed by CaribSea -- which is mined Florida crushed fossil coral, a natural form of calcium carbonate. Lime, which is used on lawns in the Spring to "sweeten" the soil is also calcium carbonate, and can be used in the aquarium at a rate of approximaetly 1/4 teaspoon per 50 gallons, depending upon the orginal parameters of the water. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > If water chemistry need to be altered (increase GH or KH) I find baking soda > and/or Epsom salts to be preferable to NaCl. > > -----Original Message----- > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:02 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Aquarium Salt > > Just as Donna states, salt is not needed for freshwater fishes. With > reference to Rift Lake Cichlids though, while again, salt is not needed, we > used to use marine salt for them 40 years ago only as we were taking > advantage of the water-hardening effects of the magnesium compounds in it -- > and at the same time the marine salt mix added TDS (total dissolved solids) > to the water -- but this was a bit removed from their natural habititat even > though they still thrived. > > I still keep about 25# of marine salt mix on hand for the Rift Lake Cichlids > as a "back-up" supply, which I might use at times, but I usually just add > SeaChem's Malawi buffer or Tanganyika buffer combined with Kent's liquid > stabilizers. I also keep dolomite in their filters. Table salt is > definitely of no use for these fish though. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > So we know that one tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons of water is a > treatment for ick. What about under normal healthy conditions? Should this > ratio be kept all of the time? > > > > JD > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT > LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where > you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52578	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Good to hear that Elle is not flashing as much, now that you've added more plants (artificial ones again, I'd guess). Yes, you should have done another PWC before adding the Dr. Tim's One and Only. While this product contains live nitrifying bacteria, it's designed to work best before you put fiush in the aquarium (i.e., before the ammonia and/or the nitrite have elevated). While it will still work -- if it's viable, and not having been affected by the weather -- it will need to take longer to reduce your parameter's levels, as these bacteria are not fast multipliers nor are they fast consumers of organic waste products as their metabolism is not as fast as many other bacteria -- but once they're established, they're very efficient at what we maintain them for. This is not to say that Dr. Tim's product does not have a full compliment of these beneficial bacteria, as it does, but their original applicate is to have them colonize and populate filters in tanks having much less "food" (organic waste) for them, with adding their food source (fish) -- at the bioload level one wants to maintain -- within 24 hours of using the product. That your tank already has an abundance of food for these bacteria is actually a plus for them, as they'll now thrive, but it will just take them longer now to consume it all. As you see, it will cycle a tank in very short time, colonizing the filter in doing so in parameters of zero, and being prepared for the introduction of fish within 24 hours (or less). But, with a nitrite level of 2.0, it may take several days to convert it all to nitrate. Give it time to work. If after several days you don't see a decrease in the nitrite, and you feel the product is defective, contact Dr. Timothy Hovanec (Dr. Tim's Aquatics) at < drtimsaquatics.com > or at < www.timhovanec.com >. As Elle's symptoms (flashing) are subsiding, it may not be necessary to treat her for any parasites. You'd be the one to judge how prevalent her flashing remains, but to give her a fair chance of getting over these scratchings, the nitrite must first come down. If it seems like she needs to be treated (and right now, if there"s anything there it's not serious -- or she wouldn't be eating), and if you can't find the Formalin, look for Clout if you want to use a medication. There is a med called Fluke Tabs, but in my estimation it's not a mild as Clout -- and Clout is very demanding in that it cannot be overdosed in the least. The dosage calls for 1 tablet per 10 gallons. If you have 60 gallons, and you have substrate and rocks that displace 5 gallons of water, your best to use only 5 1/2 tablets, not 6. It's strong, to the point of eradicating Flukes (along with other uses) but is not harsh to fish when used properly. I use it on my Angels when I feel it's needed and I've never had a problem. Clout will kill your nitrifying bacteria though. BTW, IF YOU DO FIND THE FORMALIN AND FIND THAT YOU NEED TO USE IT -- DO NOT USE IT IN THE PRESENCE OF SALT. Also, as Formalin decreases the oxygen, it's adviseable to use an airstone, with a heavy output. Now, as for the med-free way of treating for Flukes, this entails the progressive salt treatment -- which still may destroy you nitrifying bacteria in the strength it will be used at. The treatment calls for maintaining a level of salt of at least 2.4 teaspoons per gallon for two weeks. As Koi can easily tolerate at least 6 teaspoons of salt per gallon (and a bit more), I would recommend using 3 teaspoons per gallon -- but it's not to be added all at once. Add 60 teaspoons (1.2 cups) of salt each day, for three (3) consecutive days, for a total of 180 teaspoons (3 3/5 cups) When making PWC's you'd need to replace any lost salt that's being removed with the old water. if you did a 25% PWC, then you'd need to replace 25% of the salt, or 45 teaspoons (.9 cups), if my math doesn't fail me. BTW, I've had Discus up to 6 teaspoons per gallon, to give you an idea of what fish can tolerate. Mollies can easily tolerate 8 teaspoons per gallon, and when properly acclimated can live in sea water, but this is not a good example for most freshwater fishes. Wait first, before doing anything, to see how Dr. Tim's stuff works. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I bought more plants on Monday and added to Elle's aquarium. I think she seems more 'at ease' now that she her aquarium isn't bare like it was. She's curious about everything and has been checking things out. I've only seen her 'flash' a few times since adding the new directions, but I find she's doing it less than before- at least when I am around. > > I got the Dr. Tim's One and Only yesterday and added it to the tank water- following the directions on bottle. I didn't do a full testing yet of the water, but did check the nitrite level twice - once a few hours after adding the water, and once today. The reading is still showing fairly high at 2.0 ppm. If the Dr. Tim's stuff works, it would be reading 0, correct? I know that there was a chance of the package possibly hitting weather that might make it ineffective but I surely hope that is not the case here. How would I contact Dr. Tim directly for another bottle? (I remember Amber mentioning being able to do this) Should I have done another PWC prior to adding the Dr. Tim's? > > Ray- do you think I should treat her anyway? Just in case? If there is a medication free way to do this (since I'm not 100 percent sure of a parasite), then I would love to learn about it. Not that it would affect the Dr. Tim's stuff, since I'm thinking it mustn't have been effective by the time it reached me. :-( It probably wouldn't hurt to use the medication (the ones you mentioned in a previous email- if I can find them..I haven't had the time to thoroughly search online for it yet) but I'd like to try the med free way first- just to be sure. > > > Desire' in LA (the state, not the city) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ray > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:14 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle > > > > In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to a good source of light. > > Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. > > There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening with her. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like that! Very creative. > > > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things closely as I have been doing. > > > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have to medicate for a parasite > > > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > > > Desire' in Louisiana, > > for Elle the koi > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52579	From: Ray	Date: 11/9/2011
Subject: Re: Sunday results for Elle

Desire', Dr. Tim's One and Only SHOULD be stored in the refrigerator as the proper way to sustain its shelf life. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Desire' A. Heatherly" <mustanggirl83@...> wrote: > > I was reading on Dr. Tim's website in the comments section for the One and Only that one of the commenters tank took a couple days to cycle- so maybe its not as 'instant' as I assumed as in hours it would be cycled. I don't mind waiting a few days if it takes that amount of time..I am just hoping its still effective after having bought it. Would putting it in the fridge have messed it up? It was in there a few hours..if not, then major goof on my part. > > Ray mentioned a medication free way of treating Elle. I would like to try that route first. > > Desire' > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Amber Berglund > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 9:21 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle > > > > Check out http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/ > To see if there's any info about how long it should take to work, etc. > You should also be able to contact him directly from his website. > If you treat her now and the one and only was actually starting to work > then you risk a chance at killing all the bacteria and starting the > cycle all over again, and needing another bottle of One and Only. > I would order both if you plan to treat her tank for gill flukes. > > Amber > > On 11/9/2011 1:09 PM, Desire' A. Heatherly wrote: > > > > I bought more plants on Monday and added to Elle's aquarium. I think > > she seems more 'at ease' now that she her aquarium isn't bare like it > > was. She's curious about everything and has been checking things out. > > I've only seen her 'flash' a few times since adding the new > > directions, but I find she's doing it less than before- at least when > > I am around. > > > > I got the Dr. Tim's One and Only yesterday and added it to the tank > > water- following the directions on bottle. I didn't do a full testing > > yet of the water, but did check the nitrite level twice - once a few > > hours after adding the water, and once today. The reading is still > > showing fairly high at 2.0 ppm. If the Dr. Tim's stuff works, it would > > be reading 0, correct? I know that there was a chance of the package > > possibly hitting weather that might make it ineffective but I surely > > hope that is not the case here. How would I contact Dr. Tim directly > > for another bottle? (I remember Amber mentioning being able to do > > this) Should I have done another PWC prior to adding the Dr. Tim's? > > > > Ray- do you think I should treat her anyway? Just in case? If there is > > a medication free way to do this (since I'm not 100 percent sure of a > > parasite), then I would love to learn about it. Not that it would > > affect the Dr. Tim's stuff, since I'm thinking it mustn't have been > > effective by the time it reached me. :-( It probably wouldn't hurt to > > use the medication (the ones you mentioned in a previous email- if I > > can find them..I haven't had the time to thoroughly search online for > > it yet) but I'd like to try the med free way first- just to be sure. > > > > Desire' in LA (the state, not the city) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Ray > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:14 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Sunday results for Elle > > > > In general, A.P.I. tests are easier to read that Tetra test kits -- > > especially the pH test which many hobbyist even on here have remarked > > about. About the best way I find to "read" the color of a test is to > > hold a piece of white cardboard behind the vial while holding it up to > > a good source of light. > > > > Keep us filled in on Elle's scratching, while doing those PWC's. > > Hopefully, ridding the water of those excess nitrites will put her > > more at ease, as was suggested by some (and I know that high nitites > > and high nitrates can cause fish to become uneasy/scratchy). I still > > suspect a pathogen though, as I wrote in a message to you on Monday > > morning but which was eliminated from being posted because as I hit > > "send," I was asked by Yahoogroups to sign in -- even though I already > > was signed in (as evidenced by the heading across my Yahoo page saying > > "Good Morning, Raymond. Welcome to Yahoogroups."), and subsequently > > dropping my message after my signing in (again). As it took me 90 > > minutes to compose (typing was probably only 15 to 20 minutes of this > > time), I didn't want to do it over in case it happened again. > > > > There's a medication-free treatment that will cure flukes, will I'll > > write you about again, if you need it. Before taking another step with > > Elle (even including Dr. Tim's stuff), let us know what's happening > > with her. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, "Desire' A. Heatherly" > > <mustanggirl83@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I did a 65 percent water change yesterday afternoon. When I tested, > > the Nitrate was 5.0 ppm, Ammonia was (still) 0.25 ppm, High range pH > > dropped to 7.4 (Saturday's reading showed 7.8), and the Nitrite level, > > if I saw correctly, has dropped to 2.0 ppm. With the Nitrite testing, > > the two brighter purples on the bottom (2.0 and 5.0) are kind of hard > > to distinguish against the other. I had someone else look at it and > > they said it looked more like 2.0 ppm- so if we are both correct, if I > > hope is true, (again the two purples are harder to distinguish- I did > > TWO Nitrite tests to be sure of accuracy), then we are finally > > starting to see the Nitrite drop, which is good. Is there an easier > > way to be sure of the accuracy with the colors? I am finding it hard > > for some of them and don't want to give inaccurate results. > > > > > > Elle just got a few new decorations for her tank, which I put in > > yesterday. No, she didn't have any before and I felt bad about that. > > Its still kind of sparse right now until I can make another trip back > > to Petsmart. Thanks, John, for the drain pipe suggestion - I will get > > to doing that within the next day or so. My dad is a carpenter and has > > a supply of plumbing supplies- so he probably has the correct size > > pipe for Elle's tank. I never would have thought to use something like > > that! Very creative. > > > > > > What I would like to try doing is continue the 50 percent water > > changes and water parameter testing until the Dr. Tim's arrives- > > supposed to be on Friday. In the meanwhile, I will continue to add > > more decor and plants to her tank. I knew from pond experience that > > koi eat live plants, so Elle has some fake plants in her tank. Her > > tank IS sparsely decorated right now, until I can get my check this > > week and make it back to Petsmart. I will try the suggestion John gave > > about the drain pipe. I wouldn't have thought to use that- very > > creative. Thanks, John. Once the tank is cycled with Dr. Tim's, I will > > monitor Elle's behavior even more closely to see if the flashing > > continues. If it doesn't, I can most likely assume that her flashing > > had to do with stress from either and the high nitrite levels and lack > > of decor in her tank. I will be able to see her enjoy the instant > > benefits of a cycled tank. If she continues to flash, then I can also > > assume a parasite is indeed present and she needs to be treated. Of > > course sine I already added the Dr. Tim's, I know any medication will > > make it ineffective if I have to medicate. So in economical senses, > > this won't likely be the best route to go. But I do want to try it in > > case the above reasons are why she's flashing. LIke another person > > said, I don't want to be quick to medicate and it end up being > > nothing. I'd rather get the tank cycled and decorated and then go from > > there. Even if I have an additional expense of buying more of Dr. > > Tim's products. I will take that financial expense. > > > > > > Since I did add decor yesterday, I really don't see Elle 'flashing' > > as much. I still think that some of her swimming patterns are kind of > > odd, but again it could be stress from a not cycled tank or decor. > > I've only seen her a handful of times actually rubbing her body > > against the gravel. She will poke at athe gravel as if she's looking > > for food. She has did some of that yesterday after adding decor but > > I've not witnessed her doing so this morning. I will watch things > > closely as I have been doing. > > > > > > What are your thoughts, comments, concern, suggestions in regard to > > what I would like to do ? To me it makes sense to go this route, but > > wanted to see what the more experienced have to say. Also - is it okay > > to continue use of the aquarium salt until I know for sure if I have > > to medicate for a parasite > > > > > > Thanks for all the advice thus far! I am definitely learning a lot~ > > > > > > Desire' in Louisiana, > > > for Elle the koi > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52580	From: haecklers	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: spixi snails source?

I just read that spixi snails eat hydra. I want to find some but right now they are sold out at all my usual sources. Does anyone know where I can get some? My poor kuhli loach is sitting on top of the filter because too many hydra are stinging it! Would spixi snails wipe out my tubifex (or blackworms) that are living in my substrate? I'd really like to keep them since they're such a great food source for the fish I'd like to put in there - but keeping them rules out a lot of the typical hyra "cures".

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52581	From: pam andress	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: Re: spixi snails source?

How many are you looking for? I am trying to get some to breed, but my neighbor has some. That is where I got mine. ;) I do not have an answer for your other questions. Pam To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com From: haecklers@... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:30:49 +0000 Subject: [AquaticLife] spixi snails source? I just read that spixi snails eat hydra. I want to find some but right now they are sold out at all my usual sources. Does anyone know where I can get some? My poor kuhli loach is sitting on top of the filter because too many hydra are stinging it! Would spixi snails wipe out my tubifex (or blackworms) that are living in my substrate? I'd really like to keep them since they're such a great food source for the fish I'd like to put in there - but keeping them rules out a lot of the typical hyra "cures". [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52582	From: haecklers	Date: 11/10/2011
Subject: Re: spixi snails source?

I was looking around more for them and found out it's illegal to transport them (across state lines, I guess?) so I'd have to pick them up. Anybody near West Chester, PA have any??? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > > How many are you looking for? I am trying to get some to breed, but my neighbor has some. That is where I got mine. ;) I do not have an answer for your other questions. > Pam > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > From: haecklers@... > Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 11:30:49 +0000 > Subject: [AquaticLife] spixi snails source? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I just read that spixi snails eat hydra. I want to find some but right now they are sold out at all my usual sources. Does anyone know where I can get some? My poor kuhli loach is sitting on top of the filter because too many hydra are stinging it! > > > > Would spixi snails wipe out my tubifex (or blackworms) that are living in my substrate? I'd really like to keep them since they're such a great food source for the fish I'd like to put in there - but keeping them rules out a lot of the typical hyra "cures". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52583	From: jasadell	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how often should PWCs be done? JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52584	From: K T Ong	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: (no subject)

Please tell me the life span of the aquarium fishes, viz;- swordtails, black molly, angels, etc, etc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52585	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

I do 25% 1 time a week. Depends on how much your fish can tolerate. I used to tell people split your tank into 4ths. 25 ok, 50 safe but going lower you  are getting into there protected space. ________________________________ From: jasadell <jasadell@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:54 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent   I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how often should PWCs be done? JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52586	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/11/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Hi JD, You've probably told us already what your set-up is but there's no thread on this email & also different systems require different water change regimes so please tell us how big your system is, how many fish you have, how long it's been running, what type[s] of fish you have, how big they are & what filtration you have. John*<o)))< * On 11 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... > > What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how > often should PWCs be done? > > JD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52587	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no problem. As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of SIMMONDS JOHN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 3:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent Hi JD, You've probably told us already what your set-up is but there's no thread on this email & also different systems require different water change regimes so please tell us how big your system is, how many fish you have, how long it's been running, what type[s] of fish you have, how big they are & what filtration you have. John*<o)))< * On 11 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@... <mailto:jasadell%40yahoo.com> > wrote: > ** > > > I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... > > What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how > often should PWCs be done? > > JD > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52588	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Lifespan of fishes - answer

That can be a difficult thing to predict because lifespan of a fish is dependent on so many things such as genetics, stress levels, water quality/chemistry, compatibility, water temp, general health, etc. All of those things will affect their lifespan. The average life span of a fish also depends on its species. Swordtails, mollys, platys, and other livebearers, if healthy with strong genetics can live 4 - 5 yrs, but with poor genetics tend to only make it 2 - 3 yrs. Healthy angelfish with good genetics can live 10 - 15 yrs, but with poor genetics that can go down to as low as 5 - 10 (or less). Again, this is all dependent on their care and all of the things I listed above. There are fish such as koi that can live over 100 yrs (there are some on record that have lived up to 200 yrs) and others such as some species of killiefish that only live a year (referred to as annuals). There is no way to generalize the lifespan of a fish just because its a fish, its different for every species. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, K T Ong <kokthye69@...> wrote: > > Please tell me the life span of the aquarium fishes, viz;- swordtails, black molly, angels, etc, etc. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52589	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/12/2011
Subject: Re: Lifespan of fishes - answer

Malawi cichlids 8 years and Synodontis more than 30 years. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 3:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Lifespan of fishes - answer That can be a difficult thing to predict because lifespan of a fish is dependent on so many things such as genetics, stress levels, water quality/chemistry, compatibility, water temp, general health, etc. All of those things will affect their lifespan. The average life span of a fish also depends on its species. Swordtails, mollys, platys, and other livebearers, if healthy with strong genetics can live 4 - 5 yrs, but with poor genetics tend to only make it 2 - 3 yrs. Healthy angelfish with good genetics can live 10 - 15 yrs, but with poor genetics that can go down to as low as 5 - 10 (or less). Again, this is all dependent on their care and all of the things I listed above. There are fish such as koi that can live over 100 yrs (there are some on record that have lived up to 200 yrs) and others such as some species of killiefish that only live a year (referred to as annuals). There is no way to generalize the lifespan of a fish just because its a fish, its different for every species. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , K T Ong <kokthye69@...> wrote: > > Please tell me the life span of the aquarium fishes, viz;- swordtails, black molly, angels, etc, etc. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52590	From: jasadell	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

It's a 55 gallon kit that inlcluded an OTB 2 cartridge-type filter. I had goldfish in it for three years, but now its been reprovisioned as a (mostly) Lake Malawi Cichlid tank since September. It has four Yellow Labs about 2" each, one Ps.Acei about 3", two Red Rubies about 2" each, one Electric Blue Johanni about 2", and one Albino Rainbow Shark about 2". I've been doing about 25% PWC/gravel vacuum every week. Just wonder if that is sufficient. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi JD, > > You've probably told us already what your set-up is but there's no thread > on this email & also different systems require different water change > regimes so please tell us how big your system is, how many fish you have, > how long it's been running, what type[s] of fish you have, how big they are > & what filtration you have. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 11 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... > > > > What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how > > often should PWCs be done? > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52591	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

What are the test results for pH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? 50% weekly would probably be better I often do 75% or more. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 7:37 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent It's a 55 gallon kit that inlcluded an OTB 2 cartridge-type filter. I had goldfish in it for three years, but now its been reprovisioned as a (mostly) Lake Malawi Cichlid tank since September. It has four Yellow Labs about 2" each, one Ps.Acei about 3", two Red Rubies about 2" each, one Electric Blue Johanni about 2", and one Albino Rainbow Shark about 2". I've been doing about 25% PWC/gravel vacuum every week. Just wonder if that is sufficient. JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi JD, > > You've probably told us already what your set-up is but there's no thread > on this email & also different systems require different water change > regimes so please tell us how big your system is, how many fish you have, > how long it's been running, what type[s] of fish you have, how big they are > & what filtration you have. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 11 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... > > > > What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how > > often should PWCs be done? > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52592	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

I'm happy to say that my ick problem is no more thanks to all of you who gave wonderful instructions on how to treat it. Thank you so much. Now I have a new question. What is the next step? My heater is still up to 86. What is the best temperature for African cichlids and do I bring the temp back down all at once or slowly. And as far as the salt water do I leave it for the next water change or do it now. Is a 10% change good? My tank is 125 gal. Almost forgot, before I treated the tank with salt my nitrates were high 80 ppm. When can I test the water? Gail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52593	From: haecklers	Date: 11/14/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

While I believe the ich is usually killed in a few days, I tend to leave the water temp. turned up for at least a week to be safe, but keeping that much water that warm must be pretty expensive!!! I think the general advice is to lower it by 2 degrees per day. I kept my Malawi cichlids around 75F, I read lower temps keep them from being as aggressive. I have read that bala sharks are good indicators of whether there is ich in the tank - some say they are especially sensitive to it. Mine did ok with the cichlids, but were always missing a few scales. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > I'm happy to say that my ick problem is no more thanks to all of you who gave wonderful instructions on how to treat it. Thank you so much. > Now I have a new question. What is the next step? My heater is still up to 86. What is the best temperature for African cichlids and do I bring the temp back down all at once or slowly. And as far as the salt water do I leave it for the next water change or do it now. Is a 10% change good? > My tank is 125 gal. Almost forgot, before I treated the tank with salt my nitrates were high 80 ppm. When can I test the water? > > Gail > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52594	From: Ray	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: More Ick Questions

Fish are always so much less stressed by gradual changes in their environment. For this reason, you should reduce their temperature slowly. To bring the temperature down fast is to invite Ich again. Don't bring the temperature down though, before two days after you see no more signs of Ich on the fish -- and then, it's best to wait until the third day before starting to bring it down. The token small amount of salt in the water is of no concern and will be reduced with subsequent water changes. That your nitrate is at 80 ppm shows that you are not making large enough PWC's, even though some small portion of this level may be attributed to the faster metabolism of both the fishes and of the nitrifying bacteria at the higher temperature. You did say that you tested for it before doing the salt treatment, so the treatment period didn't contribute that much towards it. PWC's in the amount of 10% is not nearly enough for your tank (unless you normally don't change it often enough). Unless I missed it somewhere, I haven't seen how frequently you make PWC's -- please state your normal maintenance procedure as to how often this is done. Without knowing that, I can't determine the time period that enabled your nitrate to reach 80 ppm, and so, can't really suggest how much water should be changed at any one time. You should make PWC's weekly though, for best stability of your water parameters and for the least amount of water to be needed to ensure the parameters remain within their required levels -- rather than to wait 2 or more weeks before making PWC's. To get your nitrate down towards the more preferred level of no more than 40 ppm, do a 25% water change after you reduce your temperature to the fishes' normal range. You can test the water again right after making the PWC to determine how much the water change affected your nitrate reading. Reporting this back to us well help you determine how much you need to continue to change water weekly. The preferred temperature for Malawi Cichlids is a minimum of 76 o (up to 79 o, but which you don't need to keep them at). Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > I'm happy to say that my ick problem is no more thanks to all of you who gave wonderful instructions on how to treat it. Thank you so much. > Now I have a new question. What is the next step? My heater is still up to 86. What is the best temperature for African cichlids and do I bring the temp back down all at once or slowly. And as far as the salt water do I leave it for the next water change or do it now. Is a 10% change good? > My tank is 125 gal. Almost forgot, before I treated the tank with salt my nitrates were high 80 ppm. When can I test the water? > > Gail > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52595	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Microworm Cultures

Does anyone have a line on ready to feed microworm cultures I can obtain fairly quickly? I am in the San Francisco Bay Area...thanks in advance! Clare

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52596	From: jasadell	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

50%? Really, that much? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no problem. > As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52597	From: jasadell	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Do Ragged Fins Regenerate?

I have (had) a pair of Rainbow Sharks that fought a bought of something that made them very sluggish and made their tail and fins ragged (like ragtail). Whatever it was has since cleared. One of the sharks did not make it, but my albino seems to have survived. I figured his tail and fins would be ragged for the duration if it's life. However, every day I check it the fins and tail look better and better. I can hardly tell it had the problem it once did before. Do tails/fins generally regenerate if they get ragged? JD

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52598	From: duffy928542002@yahoo.com	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

My experiences with PWC amounts are very different than some here - I do 10% weekly on my 75, 29 and 15 gallon tanks and it's been years of good health for my community tanks - I think the quantity of fish you have is relevant - I don't overstock the tanks - in my 75 there's one dwarf Gourami, one large angel, one cory, 10 neons, 6 zebra, 6 Platy and 8 small Tetra Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "jasadell" <jasadell@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 18:02:56 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent 50%? Really, that much? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no problem. > As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52599	From: Ray	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures

Clare, There are several starter cultures on eBay right now, starting at $1.99 up to $5.95, in this country. I think the closest one to you is in Ohio. A couple of these have free shipping but one of them states they will ship within 3 business days of receiving your cleared payment (I don't know why the 3 day wait if the payment has cleared). I guess you could explain you need them ASAP and see what they say. Some cultures are shipped within 24 hours of receiving your payment and claiming their shipping takes only 2 days. There are four of them at 99 cents but they're out of this country (Hong Kong) and one a bit higher from Australia -- just wanted to draw these to your attention so you'd watch out not to buy them. There is also one Ready-To-Feed microworm culture in Mankato, MN at $7.99 plus $4.99 shipping. You can access them all on eBay just by typing in "microworms" and they'll all display for you. If you want to just go to this R-T-F culture, type in 270838306612. These are all Buy-It-Now sales rather than needing to wait for an auction to close. Unless prior arrangements are made, I'd assume they all require payment via PayPal. If you don't have a PayPal account, you could ask them if they'd accept a postal money order. Quite a few Sellers will accept payments other than PayPal. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Does anyone have a line on ready to feed microworm cultures I can obtain fairly quickly? I am in the San Francisco Bay Area...thanks in advance! > > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52600	From: haecklers	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures

If you want fast, try putting a want ad on Craigslist to see if any local hobbyists will bite. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > Does anyone have a line on ready to feed microworm cultures I can obtain fairly quickly? I am in the San Francisco Bay Area...thanks in advance! > > Clare >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52601	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Do Ragged Fins Regenerate?

Hello:    They can if the cause of the problem has been eliminated.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: jasadell <jasadell@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:12 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Do Ragged Fins Regenerate?   I have (had) a pair of Rainbow Sharks that fought a bought of something that made them very sluggish and made their tail and fins ragged (like ragtail). Whatever it was has since cleared. One of the sharks did not make it, but my albino seems to have survived. I figured his tail and fins would be ragged for the duration if it's life. However, every day I check it the fins and tail look better and better. I can hardly tell it had the problem it once did before. Do tails/fins generally regenerate if they get ragged? JD [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52602	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Absolutely! I like to keep nitrates between 10ppm and 20ppm. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent 50%? Really, that much? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no problem. > As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52603	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/15/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

I also do 50% water changes on my overstocked tanks, less on my understocked tanks. Just depends on the amount of fish I have in the tank and how the fish are acting. BUT my tap water is almost identical to my tank water parameters (except the nitrates of course), so I don't have to worry about changing my pH if I do too large of a water change. Amber On 11/15/2011 9:02 AM, jasadell wrote: > > 50%? Really, that much? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> > wrote: > > > > I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no > problem. > > As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52604	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

It's all dependent on how many fish you have as well as what type[s] of fish. I have 5 streamlined Goldfish in a 126 UK gallon system & they get a 40-50% water change every 3-4 days which keeps the NO3 at, or just under 25. John*<o)))< * On 16 November 2011 00:59, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > ** > > > Absolutely! I like to keep nitrates between 10ppm and 20ppm. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of jasadell > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 1:03 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent > > 50%? Really, that much? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > , > > Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > I do 50% weekly or more if it has been longer than a week. 75% no > problem. > > As long as there is a couple inches left for the fish. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52605	From: jasadell	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

So, are folks just using a standard tank vacuum (basically a plastic tube) or do you have some more elaborate method of cycling the water? It seems like there could be some easier way to do the PWCs. If not I need to invent something :) JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > It's all dependent on how many fish you have as well as what type[s] of > fish. I have 5 streamlined Goldfish in a 126 UK gallon system & they get a > 40-50% water change every 3-4 days which keeps the NO3 at, or just under 25. > > John*<o)))< > > *

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52606	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Microworm Cultures

You guys are all amazing - went on craigslist and found a guy in nearby city with kribs for sale and also has these hard to find microworms LOL I have contacted him so we shall see; I am also going to post a wanted ad. Thanks to all for the quick responses..... The fry are still wriggling around the 5G and the parents have relaxed a bit - hopefully they will give it a rest for a little while :-) Have set up my bbs hatchery and I also found some frozen San Francisco bbs, supposedly a little smaller and easier for the fry to manage; hopefully they will eat this is I cannot get worms in time. Can't believe these little worms are so hard to find - even my local fish club had no leads on any ready to feed. Stay tuned for updates LOL Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > If you want fast, try putting a want ad on Craigslist to see if any local hobbyists will bite. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@> wrote: > > > > Does anyone have a line on ready to feed microworm cultures I can obtain fairly quickly? I am in the San Francisco Bay Area...thanks in advance! > > > > Clare > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52607	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Python! Hook it up to the sink faucet and it sucks out the bad water. Flip a switch and it pumps in the good water set to 78 degrees from your hot/cold tap. 20 minutes for a 125G tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:53 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent So, are folks just using a standard tank vacuum (basically a plastic tube) or do you have some more elaborate method of cycling the water? It seems like there could be some easier way to do the PWCs. If not I need to invent something :) JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > It's all dependent on how many fish you have as well as what type[s] of > fish. I have 5 streamlined Goldfish in a 126 UK gallon system & they get a > 40-50% water change every 3-4 days which keeps the NO3 at, or just under 25. > > John*<o)))< > > * [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52608	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/16/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

I used to lug round buckets for my water changes but as my fish grew & I upgraded my tank accordingly the amount of water to be transferred was too great for my poor back to cope with any longer so now my approx 40 gallon water changes are done with almost no effort. I simply put a hose in my tank, suck the other end & drop it in the bath [I live in a flat] so gravity does all the work. I have a quarter inch of sandy gravel in the tank but my fishes incessant sifting ensures almost no debris is lurking in there. Once the required amount of water has been drained I take the end of the hose that is in the bath & attach it to the nozzle of a small pump in my aging tub & switch on refilling the tank. The entire process takes about 2 hours but I probably only do about 10 minutes manual work in that time-a quick clean round the inside of the tank, wipe the glass sliders & trim any dead plant leaves off. Rest of the time is spent browsing the internet, listening to music & drinking tea or something stronger-big water changes are a very relaxed affair here now! I don't know if your set-up requires more specialized methods than mine but I know a lot of folks in the States use pythons for water changes, that might be a way to go for you? BTW if you invent something that takes the drudgery out of it then let us know ha ha!! John*<o)))< * On 16 November 2011 17:53, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > ** > > > So, are folks just using a standard tank vacuum (basically a plastic tube) > or do you have some more elaborate method of cycling the water? It seems > like there could be some easier way to do the PWCs. If not I need to invent > something :) > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > It's all dependent on how many fish you have as well as what type[s] of > > fish. I have 5 streamlined Goldfish in a 126 UK gallon system & they get > a > > 40-50% water change every 3-4 days which keeps the NO3 at, or just under > 25. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52609	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52610	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Change as much water as often as you can! If one looks at the natural environment of your fish, there is either constant moment by moment movement of constant water changes or they live in a lake with very slight changes in the water chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% changes every day. That matches the place they came from. Think about it - How close can you reasonably come to Nature? Charles H -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52611	From: haecklers	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Any shrimp catching tips??

I've got to break down my shrimp tank and scrub the walls - some sort of brown coating is making it so I can't see in and the normal methods of cleaning aren't working. I've got thousands of shrimp and tiny baby shrimp in there. Any tips on how to get them all out so I don't dump too many with the substrate??

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52612	From: jasadell	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Well, there is a definite difference between a natural lake, etc and a very small closed aquatic ecosystem. Let me restate (and reword) my original question: Is is possible to change too much water in PWCs? I guess I thought that it would disturb the balance of the tank if too much water was removed at once. Is this true or a myth? If it is a myth, then I need to edit several of my past posts :) Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > If one looks at the natural environment of your > fish, there is either constant moment by moment > movement of constant water changes or they live > in a lake with very slight changes in the water > chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% > changes every day. That matches the place they > came from. > > Think about it - How close can you reasonably come to Nature? > > Charles H > --

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52613	From: barbokla	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

NEVER do more than 1/2 of your tanks water!! NEVER!! In a african cichlid tank like U have, what U are doing right now is GREAT!! 25% is 13.75 US gallons. IF U are doing this amount or close too, then U are fine, but it is best to do 10 OR 15 gal due to measuring your dechlorinator salt accurately. IF U change out to much, then U risk a small recycle and U do NOT what that.. Your tank is cycled as it has been running since Sept. U dont' want to disturb the bio with to much water out/in when U do not need to. As your fish are small still, U could do 15 gal BY WEEKLY, not weekly as they do not need it right now. IF U add in more later and as they get bigger and if U fed daily, then U need to do weekly, but that is a good while yet, IT is mostly up to U.. 10 gal weekly would be fine.. Also feeding more as morn/nite, U wil need to clean it weekly, and the filter by-weekly. I feed mine ONCE a day. Any more and U risk more frequent water changes/filter cleaning and your fish suffer from to high nitrates. (why some do 50% if not more w/changes) NOT good. The fish wont' starve and eat better at feeding time. Again, this is up to U on how much and often U fed.. U can do 10-12 total cichlids in your tank as U go by adult size, not what they are right now. Remember, they have fry to increase the population later on. The shark will be killed later, they just wil not survive with African cichlids. period.. NO tropical fish will. U need two filters on this tank. Emperor 400 are the best to get and they keep your tank cystal clear.. I have 17 of them.. Clean the filters when U clean the tank or by weekly will do. They wil need it.. I have 12 tanks and I keep a veriety of cichlids, but only 7 are running right now. goldfish are natural Ammonia makers, they need Larger and more frequent W/changes. I have some. Sand is best with an African set-up, but I have gravel too.. U vac the gravel, and just take water out with sand. I use a 32 gal toughy trash can for my water changes as I have it mixed and ready to go with a pump/clear hoses to the tank. Very safe.. U can do a 5 gal bucket, (smaller bucket to add water to it) add dechlor/salt per, (ajust temp before) and pour into the tank. Pythons are dangerous if U do not ADD IN A BUNCH of dechlo first to the tank so U don't risk killing your fish from chloinated water.. (that was not meantioned!) I would Never have one for water back into the tank unless the water went into a bucket/other.. but that is me.. Water is expensive too and the fauset runs while U do this. I do not test my water. U dont' have too on a cycled tank if U get into a weekly or by-weekly routine. I have yrs of experince thou.. ALTHOUGH:: It pays to understand and do the tests, Ph, ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates.. Nitrates are always in your water. So it is good to know how your tank does from week to week so U can ajust as need as U LEARN too, and help others later.. Sorry LONG post, lots to say. Barb --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "jasadell" <jasadell@...> wrote: > > It's a 55 gallon kit that inlcluded an OTB 2 cartridge-type filter. I had goldfish in it for three years, but now its been reprovisioned as a (mostly) Lake Malawi Cichlid tank since September. It has four Yellow Labs about 2" each, one Ps.Acei about 3", two Red Rubies about 2" each, one Electric Blue Johanni about 2", and one Albino Rainbow Shark about 2". I've been doing about 25% PWC/gravel vacuum every week. Just wonder if that is sufficient. > > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@> wrote: > > > > Hi JD, > > > > You've probably told us already what your set-up is but there's no thread > > on this email & also different systems require different water change > > regimes so please tell us how big your system is, how many fish you have, > > how long it's been running, what type[s] of fish you have, how big they are > > & what filtration you have. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 11 November 2011 18:54, jasadell <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > I'm certain this question has been addressed already, likely frequently... > > > > > > What percentage of total water content should be changed in a PWC? And how > > > often should PWCs be done? > > > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52614	From: bill 1433	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

25 percent is fine and without harm. To get real help for the fish do every other day at least. An old aquarium rule? When in doubt, give them a fresh drink of water! Remember the title of the hobby, Freshwater Aquarium Fish. It is NOT fresh water if it is sitting a week in the tank. What Ray is trying to say is to “Keep It Moving”! Bill --- On Thu, 11/17/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > From: jasadell <jasadell@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, November 17, 2011, 2:03 PM > Well, there is a definite difference > between a natural lake, etc and a very small closed aquatic > ecosystem. > > Let me restate (and reword) my original question:  Is > is possible to change too much water in PWCs?  I guess > I thought that it would disturb the balance of the tank if > too much water was removed at once.  Is this true or a > myth?  If it is a myth, then I need to edit several of > my past posts :) > > Thanks, > JD > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > > > If one looks at the natural environment of your > > fish, there is either constant moment by moment > > movement of constant water changes or they live > > in a lake with very slight changes in the water > > chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% > > changes every day. That matches the place they > > came from. > > > > Think about it  -  How close can you > reasonably come to Nature? > > > > Charles H > > -- > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > >     AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52615	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

In the wild, Nature does not scrub the rocks or roots or the plants. Even the gravel or sand remains untouched. (She just changes the water. )That is much like the glass and all the rest of the stuff in our glass cages. Bacteria live in the dirt, on the plants and rocks and exposed roots, etc. Rub your hand against the glass inside an established aquarium. It's slimy. That is where the bacteria live, not mostly in the water column. If you start up a new tank, it is not old water from an established that is needed to seed the new tank, the filter contains the stuff of new life to begin a new tank or perhaps a hand full of Java Moss, etc. I drain my tanks to the bottom as long as the fish can swim and breath until I fill it back up with water as close as that I started with. I have been breeding and raising Killifish, Tetras, minnows, Cichlids, etc. from all over the world for 4 decades with as deep consistent and frequent water changes. I try to stick with nature the best I can. I am one of the top 5 breeders in the Missouri Aquarium Society BAP rogram. Just ask any successful breeder of fishes. The more water one changes, the more fry one produces and the longer the fish live. Charles H >Well, there is a definite difference between a >natural lake, etc and a very small closed >aquatic ecosystem. > >Let me restate (and reword) my original >question: Is is possible to change too much >water in PWCs? I guess I thought that it would >disturb the balance of the tank if too much >water was removed at once. Is this true or a >myth? If it is a myth, then I need to edit >several of my past posts :) > >Thanks, >JD > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: >> >> Change as much water as often as you can! >> >> If one looks at the natural environment of your >> fish, there is either constant moment by moment >> movement of constant water changes or they live >> in a lake with very slight changes in the water >> chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% >> changes every day. That matches the place they >> came from. >> >> Think about it - How close can you reasonably come to Nature? >> >> Charles H >> -- -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52616	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Hi Charles, That makes perfect sense & I have been considering setting up a trickle system for my tank to keep the water changing constantly. Barb-your concerns about Pythons are the same as mine, I've never understood how they can be safe with the chlorine & also [at least here in the UK] using water from the hot tap is usually a big no because it is generally stored in a roof or loft tank rather than coming straight from the mains. John*<o)))< * On 17 November 2011 20:12, bill 1433 <warrenprint@...> wrote: > ** > > > 25 percent is fine and without harm. To get real > help for the fish do every other day at least. An old > aquarium rule? > > When in doubt, give them a fresh drink of water! > Remember the title of the hobby, Freshwater Aquarium > Fish. > > It is NOT fresh water if it is sitting a week in the tank. What Ray is > trying to say is to “Keep It Moving”! > > Bill > > --- On Thu, 11/17/11, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > From: jasadell <jasadell@...> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how > frequent > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Thursday, November 17, 2011, 2:03 PM > > > Well, there is a definite difference > > between a natural lake, etc and a very small closed aquatic > > ecosystem. > > > > Let me restate (and reword) my original question: Is > > is possible to change too much water in PWCs? I guess > > I thought that it would disturb the balance of the tank if > > too much water was removed at once. Is this true or a > > myth? If it is a myth, then I need to edit several of > > my past posts :) > > > > Thanks, > > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, > > Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > > > > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > > > > > If one looks at the natural environment of your > > > fish, there is either constant moment by moment > > > movement of constant water changes or they live > > > in a lake with very slight changes in the water > > > chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% > > > changes every day. That matches the place they > > > came from. > > > > > > Think about it - How close can you > > reasonably come to Nature? > > > > > > Charles H > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask > > ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when > > replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> > > ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is > > NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of > > the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new > > subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. > > , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of > > unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by > > clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com > > to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a > > time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com > > for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to > > read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com > > to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > AquaticLife-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52617	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Myth. As long as you match the water parameters (temp, pH, etc.) 100% fresh water is fine for your fish. Almost none of the bacteria lives in the water so you really are not losing biofilter. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of jasadell Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 2:03 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent Well, there is a definite difference between a natural lake, etc and a very small closed aquatic ecosystem. Let me restate (and reword) my original question: Is is possible to change too much water in PWCs? I guess I thought that it would disturb the balance of the tank if too much water was removed at once. Is this true or a myth? If it is a myth, then I need to edit several of my past posts :) Thanks, JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Charles Harrison <charles@...> wrote: > > Change as much water as often as you can! > > If one looks at the natural environment of your > fish, there is either constant moment by moment > movement of constant water changes or they live > in a lake with very slight changes in the water > chemistry. The VERY BEST we can do is 100% > changes every day. That matches the place they > came from. > > Think about it - How close can you reasonably come to Nature? > > Charles H > -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52618	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Partial Water Change, how much, and how frequent

Pythons are safe to use for just cold water PWC's, BUT you have to very very slowly trickle the water back in so that the heater has time to warm the water up as you're slowly dropping the water temp by adding cold water. The trick is a very slow trickle, then you're fine to use just cold water. Amber On 11/17/2011 12:38 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Charles, > > That makes perfect sense & I have been considering setting up a trickle > system for my tank to keep the water changing constantly. > > Barb-your concerns about Pythons are the same as mine, I've never > understood how they can be safe with the chlorine & also [at least here in > the UK] using water from the hot tap is usually a big no because it is > generally stored in a roof or loft tank rather than coming straight from > the mains. > > John*<o)))< > * > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52619	From: pam andress	Date: 11/17/2011
Subject: Re: Any shrimp catching tips??

If you have to catch them, I would try a brine shrimp net. Another way to clean the glass is a crocheted scrubby. I have found them at a fish sale, but have seen them in stores too. They really clean the glass well when other scrubbies do not. Pam I've got to break down my shrimp tank and scrub the walls - some sort of brown coating is making it so I can't see in and the normal methods of cleaning aren't working. I've got thousands of shrimp and tiny baby shrimp in there. Any tips on how to get them all out so I don't dump too many with the substrate?? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52620	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Before treatment the nitrates were 160 ppm. And fish were scratching. I did a 30% water change and got the level of nitrates down to 80% which is still high. My friend that gave me the fish said it was Ick even after I explained the high nitrate levels. He raised these fish and has been doing it for many years. He diagnosed it as ick without seeing the fish. Some of them did have white spots here and there but not all over them. So I treated them as though they had ick. After treatment to both tanks I started to gradually lower the temps. During Ick Treatment I used salt and higher temps 86 on both tanks. No charcoal in filters. When the temps were down I did a water change and tested again. With the following results: 125 gal Cichlid Tank 11/17/11 35% water change Nitrates. 160 ppm Ammonia. 0 Nitrites. 0 PH. 7.6 High Range PH. 7.4 Added 2 1/2 caps of Prime by Seachem Water Temp 78 What I have in this tank: Rena Filstar XP4 (450 gph) up to 250 gal aquariums Marineland Emperor (400 gph) up to 80 gal AquaClear Powerhead 70 with quickfilter 2 heaters (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) 30 gal Cichlid Tank Juveniles 11/17/11 25% water change Nitrates 160 ppm Nitrites 0 Ammonia 0 PH 7.6 High Range PH 7.4 Added 1/2 cap of Prime by Seachem Water Temp 80 Penguin Bio Wheel 150 Filter 2 air stones in each corner Heater (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) Now after all this including adding the chemical the nitrates were still off the chart. I also noticed that some of my fish have developed white scales. I lost one this morning and saw his scales over most Of his body were white. I created a folder in photos under Gail's Cichlid Tanks. I posted a picture of the fish that died and is waiting for approval. When you see it could you please tell me what that white is from (high nitrates?) and what should I do? I don't have any chemicals in the filters including charcoal. Thanks so much. This group has helped me so much already. Gail D.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52621	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

OPPS! I forgot to tell you how often I changed the water before this outbreak. I was told by my friend once a month. I now see from all Of you that it was a BIG mistake which may explain the high nitrate level. Even after all the following I'm still having a problem getting it down. As far as feeding I give about a med size pinch of flakes to the juvenile tank twice a day. I have about 30 juveniles in that 30 gal tank. In my 125 gal tank I have 75+ some juveniles some about 5 in. They vary in Size. I feed them 1 tablespoon of flakes and 1 tablespoon of Koi Vibrance Sticks for the bigger fish (6 )Portalegrense cichlids & 2 Parachromis friedrichsthalli "Yellow Jacket Cichlid)twice a day. Hope I gave you enough info to see what I'm doing wrong. Gail D. -----Original Message----- Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Before treatment the nitrates were 160 ppm. And fish were scratching. I did a 30% water change and got the level of nitrates down to 80% which is still high. My friend that gave me the fish said it was Ick even after I explained the high nitrate levels. He raised these fish and has been doing it for many years. He diagnosed it as ick without seeing the fish. Some of them did have white spots here and there but not all over them. So I treated them as though they had ick. After treatment to both tanks I started to gradually lower the temps. During Ick Treatment I used salt and higher temps 86 on both tanks. No charcoal in filters. When the temps were down I did a water change and tested again. With the following results:

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52622	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Hi Gail, Sorry to hear you're having such problems-in general the best [& safest] way to lower anything toxic in any body of water is to do partial water changes. For example if you change out 50% then you immediately halve the percentage of anything nasty in there. A 50% water change when you had NO3 at 160 would immediately have brought it down to 80. The thing to remember is the fish are kicking out waste constantly so as soon as your water change is done the tank is already building the NO3 up again. With this in mind I think you need to be testing daily [or more frequently] to see what your optimum level of water change amount & frequency is together with the frequency of your filter cleans. Once you have found the right regime you can settle back & enjoy your tank as it is meant to be! As I said, I cannot give you any maintenance specifics for your type of fish because I only know a lot about Carps & each type of fish has different needs but there are plenty of real knowledgeable folks on here that know! Just bear in mind that a water change will dilute any toxin in the water by the amount that you change so it is a very is useful way to control your water quality. John*<o)))< *November 2011 19:01, Gail Dennis <gail_dennis@...> wrote: > ** > > > > OPPS! I forgot to tell you how often I changed the water before this > outbreak. I was told by my friend once a month. I now see from all > Of you that it was a BIG mistake which may explain the high nitrate > level. Even after all the following I'm still having a problem getting > it down. As far as feeding I give about a med size pinch of flakes to the > juvenile tank twice a day. I have about 30 juveniles in that 30 gal tank. > > In my 125 gal tank I have 75+ some juveniles some about 5 in. They vary in > Size. I feed them 1 tablespoon of flakes and 1 tablespoon of Koi Vibrance > Sticks for the bigger fish (6 )Portalegrense cichlids & 2 Parachromis > friedrichsthalli "Yellow Jacket Cichlid)twice a day. Hope I gave you > enough info to see what I'm doing wrong. > > Gail D. > > > -----Original Message----- > Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more? > > Before treatment the nitrates were 160 ppm. And fish were scratching. > I did a 30% water change and got the level of nitrates down to 80% > which is still high. > My friend that gave me the fish said it was Ick even after I explained > the high nitrate levels. He raised these fish and has been doing it for > many years. He diagnosed it as ick without seeing the fish. Some of them > did have white spots here and there but not all over them. So I treated > them as though they had ick. After treatment to both tanks I started to > gradually lower the temps. > > During Ick Treatment I used salt and higher temps 86 on both tanks. > No charcoal in filters. > > When the temps were down I did a water change and tested again. > With the following results: > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52623	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Sorry to hear about your fish deaths Gail, hopefully we can figure out what the white scales are (I've never had the problem myself). I would definitely recommend a few (if not more) daily PWC's of 25% (or more would be better), to get your nitrates down below 40 ppm (at most). High nitrates can lead to fish deaths in fish that are sensitive to nitrates, and over time they can cause health issues for all fish. How often are you cleaning your filters? You should probably be cleaning them every week (considering how large of a bioload you have going with all those fish, especially in the 30 gallon tank). If you have a light bioload you can get away with doing filter cleanings only once or twice a month, but I'd recommend you do yours weekly. Also can you tell us the steps you go through when cleaning your filters? Amber On 11/18/2011 9:46 AM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Before treatment the nitrates were 160 ppm. And fish were scratching. > I did a 30% water change and got the level of nitrates down to 80% > which is still high. > My friend that gave me the fish said it was Ick even after I explained > the high nitrate levels. He raised these fish and has been doing it for > many years. He diagnosed it as ick without seeing the fish. Some of them > did have white spots here and there but not all over them. So I treated > them as though they had ick. After treatment to both tanks I started to > gradually lower the temps. > > During Ick Treatment I used salt and higher temps 86 on both tanks. > No charcoal in filters. > > When the temps were down I did a water change and tested again. > With the following results: > > 125 gal Cichlid Tank > > 11/17/11 35% water change > > Nitrates. 160 ppm > Ammonia. 0 > Nitrites. 0 > PH. 7.6 > High Range PH. 7.4 > Added 2 1/2 caps of Prime by Seachem > Water Temp 78 > > What I have in this tank: > Rena Filstar XP4 (450 gph) up to 250 gal aquariums > Marineland Emperor (400 gph) up to 80 gal > AquaClear Powerhead 70 with quickfilter > 2 heaters (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) > > 30 gal Cichlid Tank Juveniles > > 11/17/11 25% water change > Nitrates 160 ppm > Nitrites 0 > Ammonia 0 > PH 7.6 > High Range PH 7.4 > Added 1/2 cap of Prime by Seachem > Water Temp 80 > > Penguin Bio Wheel 150 Filter > 2 air stones in each corner > Heater (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) > > Now after all this including adding the chemical the > nitrates were still off the chart. I also noticed > that some of my fish have developed white scales. > > I lost one this morning and saw his scales over most > Of his body were white. I created a folder in photos > under Gail's Cichlid Tanks. I posted a picture of the fish > that died and is waiting for approval. When you see it could you > please tell me what that white is from (high nitrates?) and what > should I do? I don't have any chemicals in the filters including charcoal. > Thanks so much. This group has helped me so much > already. > > Gail D. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52624	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Thanks for the info John. I'm doing a 50% water change on both tanks right now. I really getting concerned because some more fish aren't looking good and hanging around on either the top or bottom of the tank. It looks like they are breathing heavier with their mouths open. I hate to lose anymore so I'll do water changes every day if I have to. Gail D. Sent from my iPad On Nov 18, 2011, at 4:02 PM, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > Hi Gail, > > Sorry to hear you're having such problems-in general the best [& safest] > way to lower anything toxic in any body of water is to do partial water > changes. For example if you change out 50% then you immediately halve the > percentage of anything nasty in there. A 50% water change when you had NO3 > at 160 would immediately have brought it down to 80. > > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52625	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Thanks Amber. Regarding my filters, I was cleaning them once a month. After this I will do the, once a week. I haven't been using chemical media in my filters just filter pads in both tanks and in the 125 gal tank, in my Rena Canister filter I have 4 compartments. In those I use #20 and #30 foam pads in the bottom 2 compartments, ceramic rings and stars in the middle and micro filtration in the top. In the 30 gal tank I just use filter pads. When I'm cleaning the big tank I rinse out all the filter media in the aquarium water I just drained into a bucket then I reuse them. I keep cleaning the sponges for about 6+ months before I replace them with new ones. The filter pads I'll clean and reuse for about 3 months. Does this help? Gail Sent from my iPad On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > Sorry to hear about your fish deaths Gail, hopefully we can figure out > what the white scales are (I've never had the problem myself). > I would definitely recommend a few (if not more) daily PWC's of 25% (or > more would be better), to get your nitrates down below 40 ppm (at most). > High nitrates can lead to fish deaths in fish that are sensitive to > nitrates, and over time they can cause health issues for all fish. > > How often are you cleaning your filters? > You should probably be cleaning them every week (considering how large > of a bioload you have going with all those fish, especially in the 30 > gallon tank). If you have a light bioload you can get away with doing > filter cleanings only once or twice a month, but I'd recommend you do > yours weekly. > > Also can you tell us the steps you go through when cleaning your filters? > > Amber > > On 11/18/2011 9:46 AM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > > > Before treatment the nitrates were 160 ppm. And fish were scratching. > > I did a 30% water change and got the level of nitrates down to 80% > > which is still high. > > My friend that gave me the fish said it was Ick even after I explained > > the high nitrate levels. He raised these fish and has been doing it for > > many years. He diagnosed it as ick without seeing the fish. Some of them > > did have white spots here and there but not all over them. So I treated > > them as though they had ick. After treatment to both tanks I started to > > gradually lower the temps. > > > > During Ick Treatment I used salt and higher temps 86 on both tanks. > > No charcoal in filters. > > > > When the temps were down I did a water change and tested again. > > With the following results: > > > > 125 gal Cichlid Tank > > > > 11/17/11 35% water change > > > > Nitrates. 160 ppm > > Ammonia. 0 > > Nitrites. 0 > > PH. 7.6 > > High Range PH. 7.4 > > Added 2 1/2 caps of Prime by Seachem > > Water Temp 78 > > > > What I have in this tank: > > Rena Filstar XP4 (450 gph) up to 250 gal aquariums > > Marineland Emperor (400 gph) up to 80 gal > > AquaClear Powerhead 70 with quickfilter > > 2 heaters (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) > > > > 30 gal Cichlid Tank Juveniles > > > > 11/17/11 25% water change > > Nitrates 160 ppm > > Nitrites 0 > > Ammonia 0 > > PH 7.6 > > High Range PH 7.4 > > Added 1/2 cap of Prime by Seachem > > Water Temp 80 > > > > Penguin Bio Wheel 150 Filter > > 2 air stones in each corner > > Heater (was given to me so I'm not sure of wattage) > > > > Now after all this including adding the chemical the > > nitrates were still off the chart. I also noticed > > that some of my fish have developed white scales. > > > > I lost one this morning and saw his scales over most > > Of his body were white. I created a folder in photos > > under Gail's Cichlid Tanks. I posted a picture of the fish > > that died and is waiting for approval. When you see it could you > > please tell me what that white is from (high nitrates?) and what > > should I do? I don't have any chemicals in the filters including charcoal. > > Thanks so much. This group has helped me so much > > already. > > > > Gail D. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52626	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/18/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Yes that helps. Definitely start cleaning once a week. Also do PWC's to get that nitrate down, I saw in a recent post you're currently doing a 50% water change this evening, right? That's VERY good. The gasping at the surface is likely nitrate poisoning, so getting your nitrates lower immediately is a very good idea. Do another 50% again tomorrow, or in a few hours at least another 35% water change (if you're still awake). Give the fish at least an hour or two to adjust to the new level of nitrates, if you change the water too fast you can shock the fish and cause more fish deaths as well, so slow and steady but make sure you get those nitrates down ASAP. The white scales could have just been caused from the fish death itself, I've never seen white scales in spots on a fish, but I've seen dead fish turn pale/white in color, or turn very pale in color when they're stressed really badly. Amber On 11/18/2011 5:29 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Thanks Amber. Regarding my filters, I was cleaning them once a month. > After this I will do the, once a week. I haven't been using chemical > media in my filters just filter pads in both tanks and in the 125 gal > tank, in my Rena Canister filter I have 4 compartments. In those I use > #20 and #30 foam pads in the bottom 2 compartments, ceramic rings and > stars in the middle and micro filtration in the top. In the 30 gal > tank I just use filter pads. When I'm cleaning the big tank I rinse > out all the filter media in the aquarium water I just drained into a > bucket then I reuse them. I keep cleaning the sponges for about 6+ > months before I replace them with new ones. The filter pads I'll clean > and reuse for about 3 months. Does this help? > > Gail > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Sorry to hear about your fish deaths Gail, hopefully we can figure out > > what the white scales are (I've never had the problem myself). > > I would definitely recommend a few (if not more) daily PWC's of 25% (or > > more would be better), to get your nitrates down below 40 ppm (at > most). > > High nitrates can lead to fish deaths in fish that are sensitive to > > nitrates, and over time they can cause health issues for all fish. > > > > How often are you cleaning your filters? > > You should probably be cleaning them every week (considering how large > > of a bioload you have going with all those fish, especially in the 30 > > gallon tank). If you have a light bioload you can get away with doing > > filter cleanings only once or twice a month, but I'd recommend you do > > yours weekly. > > > > Also can you tell us the steps you go through when cleaning your > filters? > > > > Amber > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52627	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for both tanks should be enough to do the trick. I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular maintenance schedule that is safe. In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot of time to waste. I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > Yes that helps. > Definitely start cleaning once a week. > Also do PWC's to get that nitrate down, I saw in a recent post you're > currently doing a 50% water change this evening, right? That's VERY good. > The gasping at the surface is likely nitrate poisoning, so getting your > nitrates lower immediately is a very good idea. > Do another 50% again tomorrow, or in a few hours at least another 35% > water change (if you're still awake). Give the fish at least an hour or > two to adjust to the new level of nitrates, if you change the water too > fast you can shock the fish and cause more fish deaths as well, so slow > and steady but make sure you get those nitrates down ASAP. > The white scales could have just been caused from the fish death itself, > I've never seen white scales in spots on a fish, but I've seen dead fish > turn pale/white in color, or turn very pale in color when they're > stressed really badly. > > Amber > > On 11/18/2011 5:29 PM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > > > Thanks Amber. Regarding my filters, I was cleaning them once a month. > > After this I will do the, once a week. I haven't been using chemical > > media in my filters just filter pads in both tanks and in the 125 gal > > tank, in my Rena Canister filter I have 4 compartments. In those I use > > #20 and #30 foam pads in the bottom 2 compartments, ceramic rings and > > stars in the middle and micro filtration in the top. In the 30 gal > > tank I just use filter pads. When I'm cleaning the big tank I rinse > > out all the filter media in the aquarium water I just drained into a > > bucket then I reuse them. I keep cleaning the sponges for about 6+ > > months before I replace them with new ones. The filter pads I'll clean > > and reuse for about 3 months. Does this help? > > > > Gail > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > > On Nov 18, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Amber Berglund <arberglund@... > > <mailto:arberglund%40gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > Sorry to hear about your fish deaths Gail, hopefully we can figure out > > > what the white scales are (I've never had the problem myself). > > > I would definitely recommend a few (if not more) daily PWC's of 25% (or > > > more would be better), to get your nitrates down below 40 ppm (at > > most). > > > High nitrates can lead to fish deaths in fish that are sensitive to > > > nitrates, and over time they can cause health issues for all fish. > > > > > > How often are you cleaning your filters? > > > You should probably be cleaning them every week (considering how large > > > of a bioload you have going with all those fish, especially in the 30 > > > gallon tank). If you have a light bioload you can get away with doing > > > filter cleanings only once or twice a month, but I'd recommend you do > > > yours weekly. > > > > > > Also can you tell us the steps you go through when cleaning your > > filters? > > > > > > Amber > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52628	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Thanks for chiming in Dawn. I need all the help I can get. You brought up some very good points. The first being a overstocked tanks. In my 125 gal tank I have about 5 six inch fish, about 6 five inch fish, about 8 four inch fish and probably around 50 two to three inch fish. The big fish were given to me by the friend that got me started. He's been into fish for 40 years and really should have known better. The tank was doing okay until all the bigger fish. Up until then I had up to 4 inch fish. I agree that I need to thin out both tanks. I'll get that done over tha next 2 weeks. Regarding poly filters, my local fs only has Bio Chem Zorb. Would that work? Otherwise I will order the poly fiber over the net. If I have between 3-5 inch fish how many should I have at most in my 30 and 125 gal tanks? Gail On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular maintenance schedule that is safe. > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot of time to waste. > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > Dawn > > > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52629	From: Woody	Date: 11/19/2011
Subject: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface

Learning how lakes work can help us better understand the nature of aquatic life. I wrote this article for a newspaper but it might be appropriate for a group like this. This site is safe from viruses but has some ads that make money for my publisher. I wish he'd share. http://adf.ly/3bGek

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52630	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface

Hi Woody, Thanks for posting-a very interesting read. Lots of stuff I didn't know about, particularly how the lower level, cold water has less oxygen than the warmer water above it. My understanding is that cooler water carries more oxygen than warmer water so is this something to do with the vastness of a lake compared to a pond or a tank? John*<o)))< * On 20 November 2011 02:55, Woody <floris562000@...> wrote: > ** > > > Learning how lakes work can help us better understand the nature of > aquatic life. I wrote this article for a newspaper but it might be > appropriate for a group like this. This site is safe from viruses but has > some ads that make money for my publisher. I wish he'd share. > > http://adf.ly/3bGek > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52631	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once conditions improve. In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the cost. Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep waste levels manageable. In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population levels. The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning, take this into account when deciding your full population to begin with. Limit yourself to fewer fish to allow room for the new ones until they are big enough to leave for a store, and to allow the added waste levels that numerous fry will bring with them. During times when there are fry in the tank, increase maintenance... not how much water is changed at a time but rather, how often it is changed. Instead of a single 30% change once/wk you would want to change 30% 2 - 3 times each week. Once the population is thinned out to leave only the adult fish again, maintenance can then decrease back to the once/wk water changes. I hope this all helps you. I know how difficult this kind of situation can be. I currently have a 215 gallon tank with 6 adult gephagus cichlids (6 inches each) and a firemouth cichlid (5 inches) and about 2 dzn geo fry still in there (2 - 3 inches each) and I am doing almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste levels until the remaining fry are rehomed. It can be a lot of work. Once the fry are removed this tank will be at max capacity for fish. My 90 gallon is in a similar situation with a breeding pair of adult angelfish, an adult red tail shark, and currently about 100 nickel to quarter size fry... and again, almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste, in spite of being a heavily planted tank. The fry will be leaving in a few wks, which means my maintenance goes back to once/wk water changes, however, the adult angels spawn within 2 days of removing fry, so the water changes will gradually increase to daily again over the course of the first month. Again, it can be a lot of work. For someone who is prepared and expecting this its not so bad, but when a friend misleads you and you end up with such issues by accident... I wish I could offer you a hug, because a true friend should know better. If I were in your current situation I would be quite upset with that friend and surely would not allow that person to guide me in anything fish related in the future. Nobody deserves what has been done to you. Best of luck to you! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > Thanks for chiming in Dawn. I need all the help I can get. You brought up some very good points. The first being a overstocked tanks. In my 125 gal tank I have about 5 six inch fish, about 6 five inch fish, about 8 four inch fish and probably around 50 two to three inch fish. The big fish were given to me by the friend that got me started. He's been into fish for 40 years and really should have known better. The tank was doing okay until all the bigger fish. Up until then I had up to 4 inch fish. I agree that I need to thin out both tanks. I'll get that done over tha next 2 weeks. Regarding poly filters, my local fs only has Bio Chem Zorb. Would that work? Otherwise I will order the poly fiber over the net. If I have between 3-5 inch fish how many should I have at most in my 30 and 125 gal tanks? > > Gail > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular maintenance schedule that is safe. > > > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot of time to waste. > > > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > . > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52632	From: Ray	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Hi Gail and Dawn, To start with Gail, with a few minor exceptions Dawn is "right on" with everything she mentions here. In going up to your photos I see you latest one designated as "Gail's African Cichlids" -- and having only one pic (of a dead Malawi Cichlid). I see two other pics from January 2009 but nothing else recent -- unless I missed it; I didn't notice anything with a caption of "Gail's Cichlid Tanks," as you described in you post. Anyway, depending on how recent or how late you discovered this dead fish in your tank, it may well have had sufficient time to lose most of its color, as many dead fish have a tendancy to do. I see nothing to indicate "white scales." Now, if you have all African Rift Lake species, which it appears you do as a guess (gathering from your several references to them), please know that there aren't very many Mbuna species that you can successfully house in a 30 gallon tank as most are too aggressive for any tank less than 36" long with a width of at least 18". While your 30 gallon tank is 36" long, it still doesn't have the required area to maintain most of these species as it's only 12" wide. Then too, for best success, you should have a ratio of one (or two) males to 4 or 5 females. As you can see, with this many fish for more carefree coexistance, you certainly can't have this many 6" fish in such small volumes of water (even with making twice a week PWC's). I don't know what kind of Rift Lake Cichlids you have in mind to keep, but Yellow Labs (one of the least aggressive of Mbunas) would be perfect here. Another one would be Iodochromis sprengeri the Rusty Cichlid, which stays small when fully mature. As a necessity to sufficiently diffuse and spread the aggression, best success would be achieved when maintaining at least 6 of these milder Malawi Cichlids, even if it means making slightly larger weekly PWC's. With only 3 or 4 fish, you are asking for more potential of any one fish receiving greater shares of aggression on the receiving end as it won't be disseminated as greatly by the dominant male dishing it out. For the 125 gallon, as Dawn says, six 5" fish should work out well. I would even suggest 7 fish of this size as a very workable group in this size tank -- for good parameter maintenance as well as for best coexistance of these types of Cichlids. While no fish, including Rift Lake Cichlids, can tolerate a crowded environment, with these fishes it's always best to stock towards as many as the tank will comfortably maintain ("towards" here meaning having more fish rather than fewer fish -- but not stocking to the max). Too few fish will result in their deaths due to them taking too much of the brunt of aggression from the dominant fish or fishes. One last thing that I would mention here is that unless you have all males, there are bound to be spawnings occurring in your tank if you have only one female in the mix. As you may already know, Malawi Cichlids do not form pair bonds, but "pair up" only for the brief few moments it takes for a female to lay her eggs in the succession of spawning circles the "pair" makes, the few moments it takes for the male to fertilize them during these spawning circles and the few moments in between spawning circles it takes for the female to gather up these fertilized eggs into her mouth. Having any possibility of multiple "breeding pairs" of these Cichlids in a small 30 gallon take is quite remote -- and virtually near-impossible -- as the dominant male will ensure that any other male present will not be given the opportunity to spawn. A "breeding pair" exists only for the short time needed for spawning, for these mouthbrooders, as there is no bond extended past this breeding behavior period, often lasting no more than 5 minutes or perhaps 10 minutes, tops. As Dawn states though, you'll need to periodically thin these juveniles out and arrange to take them to the LFS (local fish store). Having the fifty 2" juveniles in your 125 gallon tank that you had is way too much, considering that they'll only tend to continue to growth until reaching their full size. Your previous (extremely) heavy stocking is what promoted your high organic waste parameters, coupled with your all too infrequent PWCing regimen. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. > > As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once conditions improve. > > In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the cost. > > Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep waste levels manageable. > > In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. > > There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. > > One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population levels. > > The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning, take this into account when deciding your full population to begin with. Limit yourself to fewer fish to allow room for the new ones until they are big enough to leave for a store, and to allow the added waste levels that numerous fry will bring with them. During times when there are fry in the tank, increase maintenance... not how much water is changed at a time but rather, how often it is changed. Instead of a single 30% change once/wk you would want to change 30% 2 - 3 times each week. Once the population is thinned out to leave only the adult fish again, maintenance can then decrease back to the once/wk water changes. > > I hope this all helps you. I know how difficult this kind of situation can be. I currently have a 215 gallon tank with 6 adult gephagus cichlids (6 inches each) and a firemouth cichlid (5 inches) and about 2 dzn geo fry still in there (2 - 3 inches each) and I am doing almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste levels until the remaining fry are rehomed. It can be a lot of work. Once the fry are removed this tank will be at max capacity for fish. My 90 gallon is in a similar situation with a breeding pair of adult angelfish, an adult red tail shark, and currently about 100 nickel to quarter size fry... and again, almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste, in spite of being a heavily planted tank. The fry will be leaving in a few wks, which means my maintenance goes back to once/wk water changes, however, the adult angels spawn within 2 days of removing fry, so the water changes will gradually increase to daily again over the course of the first month. Again, it can be a lot of work. For someone who is prepared and expecting this its not so bad, but when a friend misleads you and you end up with such issues by accident... I wish I could offer you a hug, because a true friend should know better. If I were in your current situation I would be quite upset with that friend and surely would not allow that person to guide me in anything fish related in the future. Nobody deserves what has been done to you. > Best of luck to you! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for chiming in Dawn. I need all the help I can get. You brought up some very good points. The first being a overstocked tanks. In my 125 gal tank I have about 5 six inch fish, about 6 five inch fish, about 8 four inch fish and probably around 50 two to three inch fish. The big fish were given to me by the friend that got me started. He's been into fish for 40 years and really should have known better. The tank was doing okay until all the bigger fish. Up until then I had up to 4 inch fish. I agree that I need to thin out both tanks. I'll get that done over tha next 2 weeks. Regarding poly filters, my local fs only has Bio Chem Zorb. Would that work? Otherwise I will order the poly fiber over the net. If I have between 3-5 inch fish how many should I have at most in my 30 and 125 gal tanks? > > > > Gail > > > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > > > > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular maintenance schedule that is safe. > > > > > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > > > > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot of time to waste. > > > > > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52633	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Note that you do not want to take fry to the Local Fish Store if there is any possibility that they could be hybrids. The possibility of hybrids exists when you have incompatible species in your tank (such as Labidochromis caeruleus and Metriaclima estherae) or if you do not have enough females of his own species for each male in your tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Hi Gail and Dawn, To start with Gail, with a few minor exceptions Dawn is "right on" with everything she mentions here. In going up to your photos I see you latest one designated as "Gail's African Cichlids" -- and having only one pic (of a dead Malawi Cichlid). I see two other pics from January 2009 but nothing else recent -- unless I missed it; I didn't notice anything with a caption of "Gail's Cichlid Tanks," as you described in you post. Anyway, depending on how recent or how late you discovered this dead fish in your tank, it may well have had sufficient time to lose most of its color, as many dead fish have a tendancy to do. I see nothing to indicate "white scales." Now, if you have all African Rift Lake species, which it appears you do as a guess (gathering from your several references to them), please know that there aren't very many Mbuna species that you can successfully house in a 30 gallon tank as most are too aggressive for any tank less than 36" long with a width of at least 18". While your 30 gallon tank is 36" long, it still doesn't have the required area to maintain most of these species as it's only 12" wide. Then too, for best success, you should have a ratio of one (or two) males to 4 or 5 females. As you can see, with this many fish for more carefree coexistance, you certainly can't have this many 6" fish in such small volumes of water (even with making twice a week PWC's). I don't know what kind of Rift Lake Cichlids you have in mind to keep, but Yellow Labs (one of the least aggressive of Mbunas) would be perfect here. Another one would be Iodochromis sprengeri the Rusty Cichlid, which stays small when fully mature. As a necessity to sufficiently diffuse and spread the aggression, best success would be achieved when maintaining at least 6 of these milder Malawi Cichlids, even if it means making slightly larger weekly PWC's. With only 3 or 4 fish, you are asking for more potential of any one fish receiving greater shares of aggression on the receiving end as it won't be disseminated as greatly by the dominant male dishing it out. For the 125 gallon, as Dawn says, six 5" fish should work out well. I would even suggest 7 fish of this size as a very workable group in this size tank -- for good parameter maintenance as well as for best coexistance of these types of Cichlids. While no fish, including Rift Lake Cichlids, can tolerate a crowded environment, with these fishes it's always best to stock towards as many as the tank will comfortably maintain ("towards" here meaning having more fish rather than fewer fish -- but not stocking to the max). Too few fish will result in their deaths due to them taking too much of the brunt of aggression from the dominant fish or fishes. One last thing that I would mention here is that unless you have all males, there are bound to be spawnings occurring in your tank if you have only one female in the mix. As you may already know, Malawi Cichlids do not form pair bonds, but "pair up" only for the brief few moments it takes for a female to lay her eggs in the succession of spawning circles the "pair" makes, the few moments it takes for the male to fertilize them during these spawning circles and the few moments in between spawning circles it takes for the female to gather up these fertilized eggs into her mouth. Having any possibility of multiple "breeding pairs" of these Cichlids in a small 30 gallon take is quite remote -- and virtually near-impossible -- as the dominant male will ensure that any other male present will not be given the opportunity to spawn. A "breeding pair" exists only for the short time needed for spawning, for these mouthbrooders, as there is no bond extended past this breeding behavior period, often lasting no more than 5 minutes or perhaps 10 minutes, tops. As Dawn states though, you'll need to periodically thin these juveniles out and arrange to take them to the LFS (local fish store). Having the fifty 2" juveniles in your 125 gallon tank that you had is way too much, considering that they'll only tend to continue to growth until reaching their full size. Your previous (extremely) heavy stocking is what promoted your high organic waste parameters, coupled with your all too infrequent PWCing regimen. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. > > As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once conditions improve. > > In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the cost. > > Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep waste levels manageable. > > In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. > > There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. > > One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population levels. > > The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning, take this into account when deciding your full population to begin with. Limit yourself to fewer fish to allow room for the new ones until they are big enough to leave for a store, and to allow the added waste levels that numerous fry will bring with them. During times when there are fry in the tank, increase maintenance... not how much water is changed at a time but rather, how often it is changed. Instead of a single 30% change once/wk you would want to change 30% 2 - 3 times each week. Once the population is thinned out to leave only the adult fish again, maintenance can then decrease back to the once/wk water changes. > > I hope this all helps you. I know how difficult this kind of situation can be. I currently have a 215 gallon tank with 6 adult gephagus cichlids (6 inches each) and a firemouth cichlid (5 inches) and about 2 dzn geo fry still in there (2 - 3 inches each) and I am doing almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste levels until the remaining fry are rehomed. It can be a lot of work. Once the fry are removed this tank will be at max capacity for fish. My 90 gallon is in a similar situation with a breeding pair of adult angelfish, an adult red tail shark, and currently about 100 nickel to quarter size fry... and again, almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste, in spite of being a heavily planted tank. The fry will be leaving in a few wks, which means my maintenance goes back to once/wk water changes, however, the adult angels spawn within 2 days of removing fry, so the water changes will gradually increase to daily again over the course of the first month. Again, it can be a lot of work. For someone who is prepared and expecting this its not so bad, but when a friend misleads you and you end up with such issues by accident... I wish I could offer you a hug, because a true friend should know better. If I were in your current situation I would be quite upset with that friend and surely would not allow that person to guide me in anything fish related in the future. Nobody deserves what has been done to you. > Best of luck to you! > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Gail Dennis <gadennis42@> wrote: > > > > Thanks for chiming in Dawn. I need all the help I can get. You brought up some very good points. The first being a overstocked tanks. In my 125 gal tank I have about 5 six inch fish, about 6 five inch fish, about 8 four inch fish and probably around 50 two to three inch fish. The big fish were given to me by the friend that got me started. He's been into fish for 40 years and really should have known better. The tank was doing okay until all the bigger fish. Up until then I had up to 4 inch fish. I agree that I need to thin out both tanks. I'll get that done over tha next 2 weeks. Regarding poly filters, my local fs only has Bio Chem Zorb. Would that work? Otherwise I will order the poly fiber over the net. If I have between 3-5 inch fish how many should I have at most in my 30 and 125 gal tanks? > > > > Gail > > > > On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > > > > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular maintenance schedule that is safe. > > > > > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > > > > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot of time to waste. > > > > > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52634	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Hi Dawn, I'm interested in what you called Polyfilter & Purapad because I haven't heard of either product before. I'm guessing that they are both similar in action to using a charcoal media in the filter but can you say what are the pros & cons are of using each one please? John*<o)))< * On 19 November 2011 16:37, dawnshungryeyes4u2c < dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > ** > > > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times > when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this > are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, > and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with > such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes > to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation > would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very > long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for > both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you > didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to > know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger > water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from > tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at > any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the > smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm > to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good > "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular > maintenance schedule that is safe. > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number > of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, > organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and > some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you > are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, > but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the > ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going > to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound > quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of > these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to > gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank > is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other > real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their > waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food > you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of > which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help > bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to > keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as > purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you > some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. > Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. > Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out > of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the > water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is > because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot > of time to waste. > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your > fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested > online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > Dawn > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52635	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 11/20/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Hi John, Polyfilter http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=polyfilter&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=17921576112770945538&sa=X&ei=up3JToi3FYSCsALYg7ws&ved=0CFYQ8gIwAw This is usually found in 2 different sizes, 4x8 and 12x12 (inches). This is a great media to use for "emergency" situations where ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate are so high that its impossible to bring them down with safe amounts of water change quickly, such as the problem that brought me to this thread originally. We all know that massive water changes are dangerous to the fish. Altering pH drastically and/or quickly can be deadly, which is a common thing where nitrates are high for any length of time and then a large water change is performed. So the positive about polyfilter is that it does a big job in a short amount of time in a safe fashion. The cons about using polyfilter would be in using in long term. Because it is so effective at removing all pollutants (fish waste, meds, etc) from the water, if used long term it can remove too much of the needed minerals from the water and thus crash the pH and/or leave the water too pure for the fish. To leave polyfilter in any situation for more than a week at any given time is very risky. Purapad http://www.magnavore.com/media.html (found about 1/2 way down the page at this link) This is also sold in different sizes, but the large pad is pretty big. (Small Pad - 7.5" x 10.5" x 0.5" and Large Pad - 15" x 30" x 0.5") Purapad is also a filter media, this one is made by Magnavore. This is some awesome stuff. The original intent of purapad was not to remove nitrate but to help remove things such as phosphate, medications, etc. from the water safely. Just by accident they discovered that it did a lot more than they intended, thus they have continued to improve it regularly to maximize its usages. (I know the guys who created it) The biggest difference between purapad and polyfilter is how much they remove from the water and how quickly they do it. Purapad doesn't work as quickly as polyfilter, but, at the same time, its safe to use long term. It removes ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate, medications, etc., all of the things we don't want to build up in our tanks, but it doesn't progress to pulling out needed minerals the way polyfilter will. (by needed minerals I mean things such as iron, calcium, magnesium, iodine, etc.) For someone who has poor tap water quality, a temporarily overstocked tank, or anything that causes waste to get to dangerous levels, purapad can be a great solution if used correctly. There is a limit to how much the purapad can do, however, so this is not a way to purposely over stock a tank or eliminate needed water changes. I need to make that clear because there still is no replacement for water changes (those are needed to replenish the needed minerals I mentioned above as the fish use those for bodily functions and a tank without enough water changes will still lack these needed minerals over time). Purapad is meant as a "help" product, not replacement for anything. Some other things worth noting: Polyfilter does not contain carbon, purpapad does contain carbon (among other things) in its makeup. Both medias are "pad" medias, which means you cut it to fit into the filter. Both can be put into sump, canister, or hang on filters without problems, but they need to be changed appropriately. In a canister filter polyfilter can't be tracked (according to its color, which indicates when it needs to be replaced) the way it can be in a hang on filter or sump. Polyfilter can be effective just by floating a piece of it in the tank (which is safe to do) but it doesn't work as fast or as well this way. Water flowing through it is the proper way to use both medias. Purapad on the other hand must go into the filter where water flows through it in order for it to do its job. Both of these medias can be used alone or alongside of other medias. Neither of these medias will affect biological filtration except in the case where polyfilter is used for a long time and completely depletes the food supply for the bacteria. The layers found in purapad actually contribute to biological filtration processes the same way any other pad type media will do. I'm not sure what other info you may be looking for about these 2 filter medias, so if you have specific questions please ask. I have used both of these medias many times over the years and also taught a great many of my customers/clientele how to use them when needed. When someone comes to me with a severe water quality issue that water changes just won't handle fast enough (in a safe manner), I always fall back on polyfilter, which can be the difference between life and death for the fish, especially in situations where the fish are obviously struggling. I currently have one client I am helping who has a reading of 40 nitrate coming from the tap and purapad was the solution for her. Even after a water change, within about 48 hrs her nitrate reading in the tank averages between 10 – 20 and she changes the pad about every 3 wks as needed. The larger the tank, obviously the larger the piece of pad is needed to do the job, so keep that in mind if you should decide to try it. Also, the higher the waste amounts in the water the more often the pads (either of them) will need to be replaced to keep up with the pollution levels. If not replaced often enough they simply stop pulling the waste out and water quality declines as if it wasn't there at all. In relation to what carbon/charcoal does, both of these medias would be considered "super media" by comparison. Carbon/charcoal can't remove as much or as many pollutants as either of these 2 pads can, nor can it do so as quickly. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > I'm interested in what you called Polyfilter & Purapad because I haven't > heard of either product before. I'm guessing that they are both similar in > action to using a charcoal media in the filter but can you say what are the > pros & cons are of using each one please? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 19 November 2011 16:37, dawnshungryeyes4u2c < > dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I'd like to chime in on this thread to let you know that there are times > > when using mechanical media is a good thing, and situations such as this > > are a good example of that. Changing too much water at a time is dangerous, > > and when there is a nitrate level that high off the chart combined with > > such a high bioload, its going to take some extreme amount of water changes > > to bring it down to safe levels. The use of a polyfilter in this situation > > would be a good idea. This is not a filter media you want to use for a very > > long time, however, a few days to a week of polyfilter in the filters for > > both tanks should be enough to do the trick. > > > > I noticed the test results you listed were for the tanks, however, you > > didn't list the test results for your tap water? That is very important to > > know because such high nitrate levels can affect pH and all of these larger > > water changes can also affect pH. You should know the difference in pH from > > tank to tap and that should determine how much water is safe to change at > > any given time. The more drastic the difference between tank and tap the > > smaller (and more frequent) the changes must be to avoid causing more harm > > to the fish. This is yet another reason why the polyfilter would be a good > > "quick fix" to get you back where you need to be and into a regular > > maintenance schedule that is safe. > > > > In regards to the white blotches on the fish that died, there are a number > > of things that can cause that, including the death of the fish itself, > > organ shut down, water chemistry (including drastic changes in it), and > > some types of illness/disease. Once I can see a photo of the blotches you > > are describing I can probably narrow down the list of causes a bit more, > > but so you know, nobody can say for sure exactly what caused it without the > > ability to examine the freshly dead body and perform a necropsy. > > > > Lastly I would like to add that part of your long term solution is going > > to be in getting your population under control. Both of these tanks sound > > quite overstocked, which would account for the high nitrate. If most of > > these fish are still juvenile then you should expect these problems to > > gradually get worse as the fish grow and mature. Either another large tank > > is going to be needed or parting with some of these fish, there is no other > > real solution to this kind of situation. As the fish grow not only is their > > waste output going to increase drastically, but so will the amount of food > > you are putting into the tank to keep them all properly fed... neither of > > which is going to help your problems. If, after using polyfilter to help > > bring waste levels down quickly and safely, you discover its impossible to > > keep them down, then you might want to consider using a media such as > > purapad on a regular basis as part of your media. This will help to buy you > > some time before you need to decide what to do about the population issue. > > Purapad, unlike the polyfilter, is a safe, long term use approach. > > Polyfilter should be very limited to use because it can draw too much out > > of the water long term (needed minerals) and drastically drop the pH in the > > water. The reason I suggested starting out initially with the polyfilter is > > because it works much faster and in your case, you don't have a whole lot > > of time to waste. > > > > I hope this information helps you and I wish you luck with saving your > > fish. If you need resources for buying the filter medias I suggested > > online, please let me know and I can provide those for you. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52636	From: joe t	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: Lakes: An Alien World Just Below The Surface

Very interesting, Woody. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52637	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

Dawn and others consider all the great advice a hug. This experience is truly a nightmare. My friend should have known better than to load me down with all those fish. The worst part of this is that I have to get rid of them. I am a believer in keeping my pets as long as they live. I'm not one who will buy a pet on impulse then get rid of it when I realize they don't meet my expectations. So this will be difficult but I know it's for their own good. Here's the latest... My LFS had Poly Filter so I picked some up yesterday and put them in the tanks. My next plan is to give away fish fast. A girlfriend will take some mostly any that are hybrid. She doesn't breed her fish. I noticed you mentioned not to bring them to the LFS. Thankfully most of my fish are not hybrids. I'm glad you mentioned it. I have read articles on people breeding hybrids and how the market is being flooded with them. So I'll be careful not to add to the problem. A question what do you recommend doing with hybrids? I want to learn about this as much as I can. I don't plan on breeding so if it happens my other fish will have a treat. This morning I did another nitrate test and it came down very little. I know you said it would take time especially as long as I have all those fish. The next thing I want to do is take all the decorations out and give the tank a good vacumn. I'm going to take out about a third of my gravel so it will be easier to keep clean. I think I may have too much. What makes this hard too is that I'm trying to do all of this with an injured rotator cuff and it's the shoulder of my dominant hand. I won't stop until all my fish are safe. After this I most definitely will not ask anyone for advice except to this wondeful group. Your support has kept me from getting discouraged. I'm going online now to order more poly filters and purapad. I will be posting pictures of my tanks so you can get an idea of the decor and fish. Gail Sent from my iPad On Nov 20, 2011, at 11:31 AM, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. > > As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once conditions improve. > > In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the cost. > > Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep waste levels manageable. > > In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. > > There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. > > One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population levels. > > The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning, take this into account when deciding your full population to begin with. Limit yourself to fewer fish to allow room for the new ones until they are big enough to leave for a store, and to allow the added waste levels that numerous fry will bring with them. During times when there are fry in the tank, increase maintenance... not how much water is changed at a time but rather, how often it is changed. Instead of a single 30% change once/wk you would want to change 30% 2 - 3 times each week. Once the population is thinned out to leave only the adult fish again, maintenance can then decrease back to the once/wk water changes. > > I hope this all helps you. I know how difficult this kind of situation can be. I currently have a 215 gallon tank with 6 adult gephagus cichlids (6 inches each) and a firemouth cichlid (5 inches) and about 2 dzn geo fry still in there (2 - 3 inches each) and I am doing almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste levels until the remaining fry are rehomed. It can be a lot of work. Once the fry are removed this tank will be at max capacity for fish. My 90 gallon is in a similar situation with a breeding pair of adult angelfish, an adult red tail shark, and currently about 100 nickel to quarter size fry... and again, almost daily water changes to keep up with the waste, in spite of being a heavily planted tank. The fry will be leaving in a few wks, which means my maintenance goes back to once/wk water changes, however, the adult angels spawn within 2 days of removing fry, so the water changes will gradually increase to daily again over the course of the first month. Again, it can be a lot of work. For someone who is prepared and expecting this its not so bad, but when a friend misleads you and you end up with such issues by accident... I wish I could offer you a hug, because a true friend should know better. If I were in your current situation I would be quite upset with that friend and surely would not allow that person to guide me in anything fish related in the future. Nobody deserves what has been done to you. > Best of luck to you! > > Dawn > > > > . > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52638	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 11/21/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more?

One thing to remember if/when you go to remove your gravel. The top layer of gravel has the most nitrifying bacteria growing in it, if you remove the top layer all the way across you're going to interrupt your cycle again and could cause a whole new cycle problem. Best to just remove a little at a time with each water change, so you don't have cycling issues all over again. You only need about an inch to an inch and a half of gravel across the bottom of your tank, the only reason to have more is if you have plants and they need to be buried deeper to discourage fish that like to dig. You can give away your hybrid fish (most people may not want to buy them if they're hybrids), just make sure to let the people who get them that they are hybrid fish, so that they don't try to breed them. If you ask your local fish store they MAY take them off your hands for free, but make sure they are aware that they are hybrid fish so they can label them accordingly (people hate buying hybrids that are labeled as a non-hybrid). Amber On 11/21/2011 5:34 AM, Gail Dennis wrote: > > Dawn and others consider all the great advice a hug. This experience > is truly a nightmare. My friend should have known better than to load > me down with all those fish. The worst part of this is that I have to > get rid of them. I am a believer in keeping my pets as long as they > live. I'm not one who will buy a pet on impulse then get rid of it > when I realize they don't meet my expectations. So this will be > difficult but I know it's for their own good. > > Here's the latest... > My LFS had Poly Filter so I picked some up yesterday and put them in > the tanks. My next plan is to give away fish fast. A girlfriend will > take some mostly any that are hybrid. She doesn't breed her fish. I > noticed you mentioned not to bring them to the LFS. Thankfully most of > my fish are not hybrids. I'm glad you mentioned it. I have read > articles on people breeding hybrids and how the market is being > flooded with them. So I'll be careful not to add to the problem. A > question what do you recommend doing with hybrids? I want to learn > about this as much as I can. I don't plan on breeding so if it happens > my other fish will have a treat. > > This morning I did another nitrate test and it came down very little. > I know you said it would take time especially as long as I have all > those fish. The next thing I want to do is take all the decorations > out and give the tank a good vacumn. I'm going to take out about a > third of my gravel so it will be easier to keep clean. I think I may > have too much. What makes this hard too is that I'm trying to do all > of this with an injured rotator cuff and it's the shoulder of my > dominant hand. I won't stop until all my fish are safe. > > After this I most definitely will not ask anyone for advice except to > this wondeful group. Your support has kept me from getting discouraged. > > I'm going online now to order more poly filters and purapad. I will be > posting pictures of my tanks so you can get an idea of the decor and fish. > > Gail > > Sent from my iPad > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52639	From: Ray	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings

To ALL: Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving !!! Ray

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52640	From: cobra427lady	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings

Back at ya, Ray & to everyone else as well! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > > > To ALL: Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving !!! > > > > > Ray >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52641	From: kuradi8	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings

I'm thankful to all of you for generously sharing your fish-keeping knowledge. :o) ~Kai --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > > Back at ya, Ray & to everyone else as well! > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > To ALL: Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving !!! > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52642	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings

[?] I agree with Kai, thanks for all the helpful & interesting posts. John*<o)))< * On 24 November 2011 17:17, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > I'm thankful to all of you for generously sharing your fish-keeping > knowledge. :o) > ~Kai > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > > > > > Back at ya, Ray & to everyone else as well! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > To ALL: Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52643	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/24/2011
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving Greetings

Hello:    It's been a good year with lots of sharing of aquarium Knowledge.  I hope everyone in the group is enjoying a phenomenal Thanksgiving so we can share lots of great aquarium knowledge again through the coming year.    Have a Wonderful Day Everyone!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: Thanksgiving Greetings   [?] I agree with Kai, thanks for all the helpful & interesting posts. John*<o)))< * On 24 November 2011 17:17, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > I'm thankful to all of you for generously sharing your fish-keeping > knowledge. :o) > ~Kai > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "cobra427lady" <clare@...> wrote: > > > > > > Back at ya, Ray & to everyone else as well! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > To ALL: Have a Very Happy Thanksgiving !!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52644	From: Gail Dennis	Date: 11/26/2011
Subject: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Latest

I thought I'd let you know (Dawn, Amber, Donna and Ray) what the latest is in my nitrate saga. You've given me such good advice and I used parts of all. I got rid of about 16-20 fish. Seven of them were big ones (5-6") and the rest were 4". I took everything except the gravel and filters out of the tank. I was amazed at how much fish waste I found under the rocks. My son and I are doing a light cleaning so I don't upset the balance. I'm going to take out small amounts of gravel and do a good water change. I found that my ammonia was up a bit too. I'll be sure to give a good vacumn to get out the largest bits of waste that I can see. I will be careful not to overdo the cleaning. My Rena filter needs a change. I just cleaned it 2 weeks ago and already it's clogging from all the waste. ACK! Hopefully this will solve my problem, if not then I know I'll need to find new homes for them. Right now most of my fish are about 4" and under. I would say I was able to find homes for about half. I do so appreciate everyone's kind advice and support during this mess. I hope new ones will learn from my experience and not repeat my mistakes. This is far from over yet, I still have the juvinelle tank (30 gal) to do but at least I'm moving in the right direction. If there is anything else you think I need to know I'll be happy to read. I'm saving all your emails so I can refer back should I ever need to. I'll let you know how my next water test comes out. My rotator cuff injury can't take much more of this and believe me my so called friend will be the last person I'll ever go too. Gail Sent from my iPad On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > Note that you do not want to take fry to the Local Fish Store if there is > any possibility that they could be hybrids. > > The possibility of hybrids exists when you have incompatible species in your > tank (such as Labidochromis caeruleus and Metriaclima estherae) or if you do > not have enough females of his own species for each male in your tank. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:22 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more? > > Hi Gail and Dawn, > > To start with Gail, with a few minor exceptions Dawn is "right on" with > everything she mentions here. In going up to your photos I see you latest > one designated as "Gail's African Cichlids" -- and having only one pic (of a > dead Malawi Cichlid). I see two other pics from January 2009 but nothing > else recent -- unless I missed it; I didn't notice anything with a caption > of "Gail's Cichlid Tanks," as you described in you post. Anyway, depending > on how recent or how late you discovered this dead fish in your tank, it may > well have had sufficient time to lose most of its color, as many dead fish > have a tendancy to do. I see nothing to indicate "white scales." > > Now, if you have all African Rift Lake species, which it appears you do as a > guess (gathering from your several references to them), please know that > there aren't very many Mbuna species that you can successfully house in a 30 > gallon tank as most are too aggressive for any tank less than 36" long with > a width of at least 18". While your 30 gallon tank is 36" long, it still > doesn't have the required area to maintain most of these species as it's > only 12" wide. Then too, for best success, you should have a ratio of one > (or two) males to 4 or 5 females. As you can see, with this many fish for > more carefree coexistance, you certainly can't have this many 6" fish in > such small volumes of water (even with making twice a week PWC's). > > I don't know what kind of Rift Lake Cichlids you have in mind to keep, but > Yellow Labs (one of the least aggressive of Mbunas) would be perfect here. > Another one would be Iodochromis sprengeri the Rusty Cichlid, which stays > small when fully mature. As a necessity to sufficiently diffuse and spread > the aggression, best success would be achieved when maintaining at least 6 > of these milder Malawi Cichlids, even if it means making slightly larger > weekly PWC's. With only 3 or 4 fish, you are asking for more potential of > any one fish receiving greater shares of aggression on the receiving end as > it won't be disseminated as greatly by the dominant male dishing it out. > > For the 125 gallon, as Dawn says, six 5" fish should work out well. I would > even suggest 7 fish of this size as a very workable group in this size tank > -- for good parameter maintenance as well as for best coexistance of these > types of Cichlids. While no fish, including Rift Lake Cichlids, can tolerate > a crowded environment, with these fishes it's always best to stock towards > as many as the tank will comfortably maintain ("towards" here meaning having > more fish rather than fewer fish -- but not stocking to the max). Too few > fish will result in their deaths due to them taking too much of the brunt of > aggression from the dominant fish or fishes. > > One last thing that I would mention here is that unless you have all males, > there are bound to be spawnings occurring in your tank if you have only one > female in the mix. As you may already know, Malawi Cichlids do not form pair > bonds, but "pair up" only for the brief few moments it takes for a female to > lay her eggs in the succession of spawning circles the "pair" makes, the few > moments it takes for the male to fertilize them during these spawning > circles and the few moments in between spawning circles it takes for the > female to gather up these fertilized eggs into her mouth. Having any > possibility of multiple "breeding pairs" of these Cichlids in a small 30 > gallon take is quite remote -- and virtually near-impossible -- as the > dominant male will ensure that any other male present will not be given the > opportunity to spawn. A "breeding pair" exists only for the short time > needed for spawning, for these mouthbrooders, as there is no bond extended > past this breeding behavior period, often lasting no more than 5 minutes or > perhaps 10 minutes, tops. As Dawn states though, you'll need to periodically > thin these juveniles out and arrange to take them to the LFS (local fish > store). Having the fifty 2" juveniles in your 125 gallon tank that you had > is way too much, considering that they'll only tend to continue to growth > until reaching their full size. Your previous (extremely) heavy stocking is > what promoted your high organic waste parameters, coupled with your all too > infrequent PWCing regimen. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > > > First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing > (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would > still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at > which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The > conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the > fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few > days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need > much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter > that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your > goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those > nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. > > > > As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter > will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a > gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced > with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality > clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they > stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect > that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled > out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track > the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and > then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 > and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high > nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once > conditions improve. > > > > In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I > suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but > is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent > media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help > maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population > in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, > I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would > take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. > I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad > and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting > as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the > cost. > > > > Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 > gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be > the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I > would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish > in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but > there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in > a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering > are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size > would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep > waste levels manageable. > > > > In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. > If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made > to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's > important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and > maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how > many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, > the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, > then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. > > > > There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids > they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some > degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of > decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can > offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't > there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the > behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of > individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. > > > > One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio > as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to > prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the > appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out > your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either > tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For > this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to > find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big > they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy > on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead > of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population > levels. > > > > The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space > limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the > bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52645	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi Guys, I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one tell me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & getting bigger. Please share your experience. If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful for me. BR/// Faisal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52646	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: younguns.....

hi all. hope ya had a good holiday down south of me. I have 5 peppered cory fry that are doing well. what would be the average time frame..... in weeks of age that i should release them to fend for themselves. their main threats; other than their parents; would be a platy and a female dwarf gorami. tks all. juat lookin for a ballpark.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52647	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? Hi Guys, I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one tell me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & getting bigger. Please share your experience. If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful for me. BR/// Faisal [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52648	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi, That question is also coming to my mind. It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys suggest me. As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you guys should be much helpful for me. BR/// Faisal On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@...>wrote: > ** > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > Hi Guys, > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one tell > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > getting bigger. > > Please share your experience. > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > for me. > > BR/// Faisal > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52649	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other fish. Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to be kept in aquaria. Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish tanks. A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent of sharks in their shape and movements. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? Hi, That question is also coming to my mind. It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys suggest me. As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you guys should be much helpful for me. BR/// Faisal On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > ** > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > Hi Guys, > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one tell > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > getting bigger. > > Please share your experience. > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > for me. > > BR/// Faisal > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52650	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi , I am planning for Fresh Water Tank, BR/// Faisal On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:26 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@...>wrote: > ** > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > fish. > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > be kept in aquaria. > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > tanks. > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > Hi, > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > suggest me. > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > guys should be much helpful for me. > > BR/// Faisal > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > ] > > On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > tell > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > getting bigger. > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52651	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi Faisal, As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you have to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of space & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep properly. John*<o)))< * On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > ** > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > fish. > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > be kept in aquaria. > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > tanks. > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > Hi, > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > suggest me. > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > guys should be much helpful for me. > > BR/// Faisal > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > ** > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > ] > > On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > tell > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > getting bigger. > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52652	From: haecklers	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi all. > hope ya had a good holiday down south of me. > I have 5 peppered cory fry that are doing well. > what would be the average time frame..... in weeks > of age that i should release them to fend > for themselves. their main threats; other than > their parents; would be a platy and a female dwarf gorami. > tks all. juat lookin for a ballpark. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52653	From: haecklers	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo Fish" are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and a bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to keep the walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I agree a 55 gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep stable. If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you - they get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which look dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with beautiful bright colors. Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer high pH and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer a rock wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like planted tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures and read about their care requirements. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Faisal, > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you have > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of space > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep > properly. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > > fish. > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > > tanks. > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi, > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > > suggest me. > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > ] > > > > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52654	From: Bill	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

I've had a school of 8 lazer orange cory's for 6 months or so.  I keep hoping to see some breeding going on but nothing yet!.. What are the ideal conditions to get them to spawn?  Bill in Va. ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:30 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: younguns.....   Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Al Keep" <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > hi all. > hope ya had a good holiday down south of me. > I have 5 peppered cory fry that are doing well. > what would be the average time frame..... in weeks > of age that i should release them to fend > for themselves. their main threats; other than > their parents; would be a platy and a female dwarf gorami. > tks all. juat lookin for a ballpark. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52655	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52656	From: Dora Smith	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

I wonder if the person who posted didn’t realize that goldfish get big and need a huge tank? LOL! If you just want colorful fish you can get colorful tropical fish in smaller and slimmer. For most fish you need about a gallon per fish-inch. Fat bodied fish like goldfish are more demanding. Guppies and swordtails are colorful, medium-small fish that are fairly easy to keep. Tetras and danios are smaller and easier to keep, but not as colorful. Also, the more bright colored tetras are the hardest to keep, unless you like neons. In general tanks of atleast 30 gallons are the easiest to get going and the easiest for a beginner to keep stable, but not everyone has the money or the space for one. I’ve had a 20 gallon for years. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 11:40 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo Fish" are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and a bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to keep the walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I agree a 55 gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep stable. If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you - they get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which look dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with beautiful bright colors. Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer high pH and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer a rock wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like planted tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures and read about their care requirements. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Faisal, > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you have > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of space > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep > properly. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > > fish. > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > > tanks. > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi, > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > > suggest me. > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > ] > > > > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52657	From: The_ONE	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Doesn't complicate your life ...start with 29 gallons, enough to handle, every fish grow according the size, of the aquarium, if the fish grow too big, just change it in the pet shop... is the perfect size...not too big, not too small...    EFRAIN MONTANEZ HIRALDO Graphic Design & Illustration for Media ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:39 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?   If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo Fish" are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and a bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to keep the walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I agree a 55 gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep stable. If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you - they get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which look dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with beautiful bright colors. Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer high pH and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer a rock wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like planted tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures and read about their care requirements. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Faisal, > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you have > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of space > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep > properly. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > > fish. > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > > tanks. > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi, > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > > suggest me. > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > ] > > > > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52658	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

I do not agree that fish grow to the size of the aquarium. You could not keep even one Metriaclima estherae in a 29G. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The_ONE Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 2:40 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? Doesn't complicate your life ...start with 29 gallons, enough to handle, every fish grow according the size, of the aquarium, if the fish grow too big, just change it in the pet shop... is the perfect size...not too big, not too small... EFRAIN MONTANEZ HIRALDO Graphic Design & Illustration for Media ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:39 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo Fish" are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and a bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to keep the walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I agree a 55 gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep stable. If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you - they get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which look dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with beautiful bright colors. Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer high pH and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer a rock wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like planted tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures and read about their care requirements. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Faisal, > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you have > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of space > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep > properly. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG tank. > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > > fish. > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable to > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to fish > > tanks. > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are reminiscent > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > Hi, > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience guys > > suggest me. > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from you > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the fish. > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > ] > > > > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52659	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

Hi Al, Can we see some pictures? John*<o)))< * On 27 November 2011 18:45, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > ** > > > thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month > they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess > it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they > would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52660	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi Efrain, If I'm reading your post right you are saying that fish grow to the size of the tank? This is a myth perpetuated by fish in tanks [& bowls] that are too small for them that simply stop growing because they get stunted & cannot grow any larger. I would also take exception to suggesting that you exchange any fish that grows to big for another fish that is more suitably sized. Surely if you do your research beforehand then that should never happen because you will know the limitations of your wallet, your time & your available tank space. Unfortunately fish keeping is rather complicated & you have the additional nightmare of doing all the difficult stuff like cycling your tank right at the start when you are starting out. John*<o)))< * On 27 November 2011 19:40, The_ONE <the_supernegro@...> wrote: > ** > > > Doesn't complicate your life ...start with 29 gallons, enough to handle, > every fish grow according the size, of the aquarium, if the fish grow too > big, just change it in the pet shop... is the perfect size...not too big, > not too small... >  > EFRAIN MONTANEZ HIRALDO > Graphic Design & Illustration for Media > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? > > >  > If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the > African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You > could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo > Fish" are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and > a bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to keep > the walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I agree > a 55 gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep > stable. > > If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you - > they get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which > look dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with > beautiful bright colors. > > Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer high > pH and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. > Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer a > rock wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like > planted tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures > and read about their care requirements. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Faisal, > > > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you > have > > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of > space > > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to keep > > properly. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG > tank. > > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with other > > > fish. > > > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable > to > > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie to > fish > > > tanks. > > > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are > reminiscent > > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience > guys > > > suggest me. > > > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from > you > > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the > fish. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > ] > > > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto: > AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any > one > > > tell > > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be > healthy & > > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be > helpful > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52661	From: Ray	Date: 11/27/2011
Subject: Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more? Latest

Gail, We're glad you're finally on the right track. You'll enjoy fishkeeping now, and your fish will enjoy living in your tanks. Take care of that shoulder injury and get well soon. Oh, and as most of the nitrifying bacteria found with the gravel primarily resides on top and within the first 1/2" of your gravel, don't take too much off of the top. Likewise, don't vacuum the whole bottom area all at once, but spread the work out over a week to allow new bacteria to re-populate the areas behind you that you just did, as you proceed across the tank. I'm not meaning that most of the nitrifying bacteria IS in the gravel though, as the vast majority of them are found where the most oxygen-rich water flows past them -- in the filter -- but I'm referring here to that bacteria found with the gravel, with most of it found not very far from oxygen-bearing water. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Gail Dennis <gadennis42@...> wrote: > > I thought I'd let you know (Dawn, Amber, Donna and Ray) what the latest is in my nitrate saga. You've given me such good advice and I used parts of all. I got rid of about 16-20 fish. Seven of them were big ones (5-6") and the rest were 4". I took everything except the gravel and filters out of the tank. I was amazed at how much fish waste I found under the rocks. My son and I are doing a light cleaning so I don't upset the balance. I'm going to take out small amounts of gravel and do a good water change. I found that my ammonia was up a bit too. I'll be sure to give a good vacuum to get out the largest bits of waste that I can see. I will be careful not to overdo the cleaning. My Rena filter needs a change. I just cleaned it 2 weeks ago and already it's clogging from all the waste. ACK! Hopefully this will solve my problem, if not then I know I'll need to find new homes for them. Right now most of my fish are about 4" and under. I would say I was able to find homes for about half. I do so appreciate everyone's kind advice and support during this mess. I hope new ones will learn from my experience and not repeat my mistakes. This is far from over yet, I still have the juvinelle tank (30 gal) to do but at least I'm moving in the right direction. If there is anything else you think I need to know I'll be happy to read. I'm saving all your emails so I can refer back should I ever need to. I'll let you know how my next water test comes out. My rotator cuff injury can't take much more of this and believe me my so called friend will be the last person I'll ever go too. > > Gail > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > Note that you do not want to take fry to the Local Fish Store if there is > > any possibility that they could be hybrids. > > > > The possibility of hybrids exists when you have incompatible species in your > > tank (such as Labidochromis caeruleus and Metriaclima estherae) or if you do > > not have enough females of his own species for each male in your tank. > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 2:22 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: High Nitrates, Ick and more? > > > > Hi Gail and Dawn, > > > > To start with Gail, with a few minor exceptions Dawn is "right on" with > > everything she mentions here. In going up to your photos I see you latest > > one designated as "Gail's African Cichlids" -- and having only one pic (of a > > dead Malawi Cichlid). I see two other pics from January 2009 but nothing > > else recent -- unless I missed it; I didn't notice anything with a caption > > of "Gail's Cichlid Tanks," as you described in you post. Anyway, depending > > on how recent or how late you discovered this dead fish in your tank, it may > > well have had sufficient time to lose most of its color, as many dead fish > > have a tendancy to do. I see nothing to indicate "white scales." > > > > Now, if you have all African Rift Lake species, which it appears you do as a > > guess (gathering from your several references to them), please know that > > there aren't very many Mbuna species that you can successfully house in a 30 > > gallon tank as most are too aggressive for any tank less than 36" long with > > a width of at least 18". While your 30 gallon tank is 36" long, it still > > doesn't have the required area to maintain most of these species as it's > > only 12" wide. Then too, for best success, you should have a ratio of one > > (or two) males to 4 or 5 females. As you can see, with this many fish for > > more carefree coexistance, you certainly can't have this many 6" fish in > > such small volumes of water (even with making twice a week PWC's). > > > > I don't know what kind of Rift Lake Cichlids you have in mind to keep, but > > Yellow Labs (one of the least aggressive of Mbunas) would be perfect here. > > Another one would be Iodochromis sprengeri the Rusty Cichlid, which stays > > small when fully mature. As a necessity to sufficiently diffuse and spread > > the aggression, best success would be achieved when maintaining at least 6 > > of these milder Malawi Cichlids, even if it means making slightly larger > > weekly PWC's. With only 3 or 4 fish, you are asking for more potential of > > any one fish receiving greater shares of aggression on the receiving end as > > it won't be disseminated as greatly by the dominant male dishing it out. > > > > For the 125 gallon, as Dawn says, six 5" fish should work out well. I would > > even suggest 7 fish of this size as a very workable group in this size tank > > -- for good parameter maintenance as well as for best coexistance of these > > types of Cichlids. While no fish, including Rift Lake Cichlids, can tolerate > > a crowded environment, with these fishes it's always best to stock towards > > as many as the tank will comfortably maintain ("towards" here meaning having > > more fish rather than fewer fish -- but not stocking to the max). Too few > > fish will result in their deaths due to them taking too much of the brunt of > > aggression from the dominant fish or fishes. > > > > One last thing that I would mention here is that unless you have all males, > > there are bound to be spawnings occurring in your tank if you have only one > > female in the mix. As you may already know, Malawi Cichlids do not form pair > > bonds, but "pair up" only for the brief few moments it takes for a female to > > lay her eggs in the succession of spawning circles the "pair" makes, the few > > moments it takes for the male to fertilize them during these spawning > > circles and the few moments in between spawning circles it takes for the > > female to gather up these fertilized eggs into her mouth. Having any > > possibility of multiple "breeding pairs" of these Cichlids in a small 30 > > gallon take is quite remote -- and virtually near-impossible -- as the > > dominant male will ensure that any other male present will not be given the > > opportunity to spawn. A "breeding pair" exists only for the short time > > needed for spawning, for these mouthbrooders, as there is no bond extended > > past this breeding behavior period, often lasting no more than 5 minutes or > > perhaps 10 minutes, tops. As Dawn states though, you'll need to periodically > > thin these juveniles out and arrange to take them to the LFS (local fish > > store). Having the fifty 2" juveniles in your 125 gallon tank that you had > > is way too much, considering that they'll only tend to continue to growth > > until reaching their full size. Your previous (extremely) heavy stocking is > > what promoted your high organic waste parameters, coupled with your all too > > infrequent PWCing regimen. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > First let me say that the Bio Chem Zorb is not going to do the same thing > > (or as quickly) as the polyfilter, and because of your situation I would > > still suggest the polyfilter for the initial clean up due to the speed at > > which it works. There is no other media that compares to polyfilter. The > > conditions with the 160 nitrate is something that is very dangerous to the > > fish and polyfilter will bring that down to safe levels in a matter of a few > > days (if its used correctly) where as any other medias are going to need > > much more time to accomplish such a task. You may find with the polyfilter > > that you need to change it a few times in the bigger tank to achieve your > > goal, but the 30 gallon I would expect almost overnight to have those > > nitrate levels cut in 1/2 or more. > > > > > > As it pulls the nitrate and other toxins from the water the polyfilter > > will change colors, anywhere from brown to green and sometimes even a > > gray/black hue. Once it turns a darker color it will need to be replaced > > with a fresh piece. As it continues to do its job and the water quality > > clears up the pieces will take longer to turn color until eventually they > > stay mostly white. Because of your bioload in these tanks I wouldn't expect > > that to happen real soon, as all the new waste is still going to be pulled > > out via polyfilter as its produced. For this reason you will need to track > > the water quality with test kits until it is within a good, safe range, and > > then change over to another media. (safe would be ammonia and nitrite both 0 > > and nitrate 40 or below) Continue to track pH as well, because a high > > nitrate level often brings pH down, in which case it may likely go up once > > conditions improve. > > > > > > In regards to using purapad after the initial clean up, the reason I > > suggested this specific media is because it, also, works rather quickly, but > > is safe to use as a long term solution. You can make purapad a permanent > > media in your filters and change it out regularly (once/month or so) to help > > maintain good water quality as you are going about thinning the population > > in both tanks. I know for sure that purapad works, as for the Bio Chem Zorb, > > I honestly can't say how well it works in comparison or how long it would > > take to work vs the pura pad, as I have never tested it against the purpad. > > I have, however, tested a number of other similar medias against the purapad > > and have yet to find one that is as effective, easy to use, and long lasting > > as purpad, and for this reason the purapad is also the better value for the > > cost. > > > > > > Stocking levels... when considering keeping 3 - 5 inch fish in a 30 > > gallon, the best advice I can offer for that is that 3 inch fish would be > > the largest I would try. If at 3 inches these are juvenile fish, then I > > would have to say this, too, would be only temporary. A single 5 inch fish > > in a 30 gallon tank is not only going to likely max out waste levels, but > > there is going to be a space limit to consider. More than one 5 inch fish in > > a 30 gallon tank is just simply too much. If the fish you are considering > > are full grown at 3 inches, then I would say the limit in a tank that size > > would be 3 - 4 of them to avoid space/territory issues as well as to keep > > waste levels manageable. > > > > > > In the 125 gallon tank, how you have it decorated is going to say a lot. > > If there is plenty of decor to allow it, a 1/2 dozen 5 inch fish can be made > > to work if maintenance is kept up and the filtration allows for it. What's > > important to remember is that water quality (tracked via test kits) and > > maintenance on the tank are going to play a huge part in determining how > > many can stay in that tank. If the mixture is 3 and 5 inch fish, and again, > > the 3 inch fish are full grown at that size and getting along peacefully, > > then you may be able to work with up to 10 fish total. > > > > > > There are a lot of people who say that when working with African cichlids > > they can tolerate and actually prefer a crowded environment. While to some > > degree this is true, that is also reliant on the waste levels and amount of > > decor/territory available to them in the tank. What I, or anyone else can > > offer you for stocking limits is going to be a bit limited because we aren't > > there to see the tank, test and track water quality, and observe the > > behavior of the fish. Every situation is different. Personalities of > > individual fish also plays a part in the overall scheme of things. > > > > > > One last thing I want to mention before I go. Watch your male/female ratio > > as well as what fish pair up and show signs of spawning. The only way to > > prevent spawning is to carefully plan out a tank and not allow for the > > appropriate mix of the sexes of compatible breeding fish. Should you max out > > your tank population and discover you have a breeding pair (or 2) in either > > tank, population is going to once again become an issue rather quickly. For > > this reason I would strongly urge you to check with local fish stores to > > find out if they will accept any fry you may need to rehome and ask how big > > they need to be before they will take them. Every store has its own policy > > on what they can/will take and at what sizes. Knowing this information ahead > > of time will help you to maintain a level of control over your population > > levels. > > > > > > The 30 gallon tank is one I would not allow spawning in, just due to space > > limitations and how aggressive most cichlids can get during spawning. In the > > bigger tank, however, if you wish to continue to allow spawning > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52662	From: Al Keep	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

i will when i can john... i think there too small for my point and shoot still... they are like tadpoles with small pectoral fins still... :-)>>> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, > > Can we see some pictures? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 18:45, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month > > they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess > > it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they > > would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52663	From: haecklers	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

This is one of mine at 5 weeks. http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/CoryClose-Up.jpg It's a peppered cory. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, > > Can we see some pictures? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 18:45, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month > > they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess > > it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they > > would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52664	From: john Lewis	Date: 11/28/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

Hello:    Nice little guy.  It looks really good.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:59 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: younguns.....   This is one of mine at 5 weeks. http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/CoryClose-Up.jpg It's a peppered cory. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Al, > > Can we see some pictures? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 27 November 2011 18:45, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a month > > they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I guess > > it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast they > > would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52665	From: kuradi8	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

Little PuPu is doing quite well. Months later, he is still TINY. I think he's a "Little Fish." You know, Dwarfish. :oD Literally, My Little Munchkin! ~Kai WAY BACK in the first few days of September Kai wrote: > > Thanks! I think he's a little cutie too. > ~Kai > > > > Enid Rodriguez wrote: > > > > very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than normal. > > Enid > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." > > > > So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. > > > > I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. > > > > Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/list My husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely bigger than a Quarter. > > > > Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in him too. :o) > > > > So long live PuPu! > > ~Kai > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52666	From: jasadell	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that you are new to keeping aquaria. Facts: First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater fish. Tropical fish need warm water. Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. Opinions: I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. There are several things to consider and there is really no one single place to get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I wish I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off for 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" moments. Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find out it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires ongoing maintenance. Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): - You need a tank with a tank light. - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical fish - You need a tank thermometer - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and easy to maintain * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and usually some money. - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more specific recommendations on the type and quantity). - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use your imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) so start there. - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so you have fresh food. - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the gravel. - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with water. Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will displace water. - Run it empty for several days. - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic to fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which are highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test your water before you add more fish. - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) - Platys - Tetras - Hatchetfish - Loach - Danios - Glo-fish - Barbs - Glass catfish (very cool) - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a group of 3 or more. - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have 2-4 week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, though. This group is your best resource. Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group here. Enjoy! JD --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one tell > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > getting bigger. > > Please share your experience. > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > for me. > > BR/// Faisal > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52667	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: younguns.....

They grow really fast at this age-my friend has just got a number of them. John*<o)))< * On 29 November 2011 03:11, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > ** > > > Hello: > Nice little guy. It looks really good. > Have a Great Day!!! > Spawn > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 8:59 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: younguns..... > > > > This is one of mine at 5 weeks. > > http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/CoryClose-Up.jpg > > It's a peppered cory. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Al, > > > > Can we see some pictures? > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 27 November 2011 18:45, Al Keep <al_keep_fish@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > thanks. the dear little things are two weeks. i'll be patient. > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Mine grow really fast on microworms and baby brine shrimp, so in a > month > > > they would definitely be ready to be put back in the main tank. But I > guess > > > it depends on what you're feeding them and the temperature how fast > they > > > would grow. Warmer water and more feedings = faster growth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52668	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

Hi Kai, Maybe PuPu is just a late developer, has he grown any since you posted his picture in September? My Goldfish all grow at different rates, a couple of them stayed smaller than the rest for a couple of years but they've all gotten to a similar size now & are still growing slowly. John*<o)))< * On 30 November 2011 18:05, kuradi8 <kuradi8@...> wrote: > ** > > > Little PuPu is doing quite well. > > Months later, he is still TINY. > > I think he's a "Little Fish." You know, Dwarfish. :oD > > Literally, My Little Munchkin! > ~Kai > > WAY BACK in the first few days of September Kai wrote: > > > > Thanks! I think he's a little cutie too. > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > Enid Rodriguez wrote: > > > > > > very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than > normal. > > > Enid > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > > > I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but > beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." > > > > > > So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas > marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a > Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. > > > > > > I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see > them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked > "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one > and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. > > > > > > Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/listMy husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names > from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but > he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely > bigger than a Quarter. > > > > > > Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in > him too. :o) > > > > > > So long live PuPu! > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52669	From: Alex Mejia	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Looking for more plants

Hello all. Hope everyone is having a relaxing holiday season… As I work in retail this is the worse time for me. So if you are having a good time… think of me ☺ Thanks everyone for the help you all gave me with the lighting a few weeks ago. I settled for the T5 from Aquarium Lighting. It came with a 39w 650nm Pink Roseate bulb and a 39w 6000k bulb. Thus far I really like it. The fish look great. Since I was going from having no light I have increased the time I leave it on from 2 hours per day 3 weeks ago to 4 hours a day this week. Now I am interested in getting a few more plants to get this looking like a home to my little guys. Here are my stats for those who might not remember. Tank 70g US Tall 36"L x 25"W x18"D Parameters - Testing is once a month. No changes for over a year :) pH @ 7.6 Ammo @ 0 Nitrites @ 0 Nitrates @ 10 kH @ 6 gH @ 9 Current Stock 3 Java Fern 2 Pieces of Mopani (1 large & 1 small) 1 Common Pleco 3 Guppie/Maybe Hybrid 7 Neon Tetra 1 Unknown type Neon 1 X Pristilla Tetra 5 Danio 5 Long Fin Danio 11 Barbs (5 Tiger, 3 Green, 3 blue) 4 Red Eye Tetras These are a few plants that are of interest to me. I hope the Latin names are correct. Water Onion – crinum thaianum (Really do like this one) Wisteria – Hygrophila Difformis (Not sure on this one as I read it can benefit from co2; I do like it though) Peacock Fern – Selaginella Wildenowii (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) Asian Waterfern – bolbitis heteroclite (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) Any other suggestions? Thanks again; Alex

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52670	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 11/30/2011
Subject: Re: Looking for more plants

I have great luck with the difformis. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alex Mejia Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 9:07 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Looking for more plants Hello all. Hope everyone is having a relaxing holiday season… As I work in retail this is the worse time for me. So if you are having a good time… think of me ☺ Thanks everyone for the help you all gave me with the lighting a few weeks ago. I settled for the T5 from Aquarium Lighting. It came with a 39w 650nm Pink Roseate bulb and a 39w 6000k bulb. Thus far I really like it. The fish look great. Since I was going from having no light I have increased the time I leave it on from 2 hours per day 3 weeks ago to 4 hours a day this week. Now I am interested in getting a few more plants to get this looking like a home to my little guys. Here are my stats for those who might not remember. Tank 70g US Tall 36"L x 25"W x18"D Parameters - Testing is once a month. No changes for over a year :) pH @ 7.6 Ammo @ 0 Nitrites @ 0 Nitrates @ 10 kH @ 6 gH @ 9 Current Stock 3 Java Fern 2 Pieces of Mopani (1 large & 1 small) 1 Common Pleco 3 Guppie/Maybe Hybrid 7 Neon Tetra 1 Unknown type Neon 1 X Pristilla Tetra 5 Danio 5 Long Fin Danio 11 Barbs (5 Tiger, 3 Green, 3 blue) 4 Red Eye Tetras These are a few plants that are of interest to me. I hope the Latin names are correct. Water Onion – crinum thaianum (Really do like this one) Wisteria – Hygrophila Difformis (Not sure on this one as I read it can benefit from co2; I do like it though) Peacock Fern – Selaginella Wildenowii (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) Asian Waterfern – bolbitis heteroclite (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) Any other suggestions? Thanks again; Alex [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52671	From: Faisal Ashraf	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi JD, Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate that & that is really helpful to me. BR///Faisal On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that you > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > Facts: > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater fish. > Tropical fish need warm water. > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > Opinions: > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. There > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place to > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I wish > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off for > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" moments. > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find out > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > ongoing maintenance. > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > - You need a tank with a tank light. > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > fish > - You need a tank thermometer > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and easy > to maintain > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > usually some money. > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use your > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) so > start there. > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > you have fresh food. > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > gravel. > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with water. > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will displace > water. > - Run it empty for several days. > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic to > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which are > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > your water before you add more fish. > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > - Platys > - Tetras > - Hatchetfish > - Loach > - Danios > - Glo-fish > - Barbs > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > group of 3 or more. > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have 2-4 > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > though. This group is your best resource. > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > here. > > Enjoy! > JD > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > tell > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > getting bigger. > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > for me. > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > home page. > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52672	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

I have to comment on JD's post here, as I disagree with some info and would like to complete some of the other stuff mentioned. First off, I disagree with the expecting fish to die, that doesn't have to happen and isn't the "normal" experience if there is patience and things are done correctly. This group can guide you through everything one step at a time if you allow it and wait for replies before moving forward. Secondly, I'd disagree with 20 gallons being a good size to start with. 30 gallons is better if you wish to keep it somewhat small. There are a few reasons I say this... 1. 20 gallons severely limits how many and what kind of fish you can keep. 30 gallons makes this a little easier. 2. The larger the tank the easier it is to keep stable, which is of ultimate importance in successful fish keeping. Then there are the fish selections that JD mentioned without completing the info. Guppies, mollys, swordtails, platys are live bearing fish, which means their favorite thing to do is to breed. This can present a multitude of problems for a beginner with a small tank or without the knowledge of how to prepare for the mass population that happens quickly, (or prevent it) and also presents a problem when it comes to grouping them by sex if not prepared/informed. Knowing how to tell the difference between male and female is important and not pairing them with one of each is important. If you should decide to start out with any of these species of fish I would strongly urge you to consult here in the group before buying them. Hatchet fish... most of them get quite large. This is another fish not to buy without first doing some research and/or asking here in the group. Most species of hatchet fish get way too large for a 20 gallon tank. Loaches... not all compatible with all fish. Some loaches get extremely large, all loaches are sensitive to water quality/chemistry, and some species of loaches can be quite aggressive and don't pair well with some of the other fish previously mentioned. This is another group of fishes that you should be researching and asking about here in the group before purchasing. Glass catfish also get too large to keep a group of 3 - 5 in a 20 gallon tank. And lastly, not all of the fish JD mentioned on that list are compatible. Mixing barbs with live bearers or tetras for most part won't work. There are a couple of exceptions, but the majority of barbs are far too aggressive to be paired with peaceful fish. My suggestion is to first decide what size aquarium you can accommodate. The bigger the better, but some people have space issues to take into account. Look around your home, find a suitable space you have available for an aquarium and aquarium stand (never put a tank on a table or dresser, etc). Measure this space and use those measurements to determine what size tanks will fit there. For an aquarium over 30 gallons you will want to put it on a support wall in your home where you know the floor is sturdy and level. Never put an aquarium/stand on a tile floor and avoid putting it near heat vents, intake vents, and windows/doors where it can receive a direct draft. If possible, avoid direct sunlight from hitting the tank also. Very important: make sure whatever tank you work with that it is leveled before you put water into it. If you need to make adjustments for such a thing always put shims under the stand, never under the tank itself. (this can cause breakage of the tank glass) I'd also like to mention that any aquarium 10 gallons and over that is not placed on an actual aquarium stand will be void of any manufacturer warranty. Some people think this doesn't matter, however, if a tank on an aquarium stand leaks or breaks due to a fault in the product (its not common but it does happen) the manufacturer will not only replace the tank but in many cases cover the cost of damages to your personal property and home. This also means keep your receipts for tank and stand and if there is ever a problem take pictures immediately, not after cleaning everything up. Send this to the manufacturer and work with them to recover your losses. Even 30 gallons of water can cause a lot of damage to your home if it should break or leak. Buy your own test kits, even if you decide to go with a 10 gallon tank. Having these on hand at all times is important. Many aquarium problems happen in the middle of the night when pet stores are closed. The fastest way to get help here in the group (or in any group or forum online) is to have those test results fresh and ready. Learning to test your own water is vital to long term success, as water chemistry is vital to life for any fish. API makes a reasonably priced and accurate master test kit that includes all of what you should have on hand (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH). This brings me back to fish selection. Test your tap water before deciding on what fish to purchase/keep. Some fish need harder water (such as African cichlids) and some fish prefer softer water (such as many tetras, dwarf cichlids, etc). Knowing what you can accommodate with your tap water without having to alter it will help you to be the most successful with the least amount of problems and expense. Some people have poor water quality out of the tap which requires extra steps to make it fish safe. Donna can offer you examples of what she deals with from her tap (high ammonia and high nitrate) and the headaches it can bring, not to mention expenses and how it affects the fish. This is something else the group can help you with as you get to this stage. Decorating the aquarium is also important. Not only do you need to be sure you have appropriate decor for the types of fish you are keeping, but enough of it to provide for proper shelter for the fish and to help them avoid excessive amounts of stress. JD mentioned plastic plants but silk plants are safer and easier to clean and tend to last longer. There is benefit to keeping live plants (it can help with water chemistry and oxygen production) if you have enough of them and allow the group to help you find proper species for your situation. If you should want to keep live plants, what light fixture you are using will play a big part in success. This again is something the group can help you with if it is an option you are considering, but you should research this before buying the tank or a kit in case you need a stronger light fixture than is included with a kit. Depth of the tank will also make a difference in what plants will thrive and what will not. I disagree with JD's assumption that cichlids overall are a bad beginner fish. There are some species such as dwarf cichlids, angelfish, etc that can make for wonderful beginner fish. Regardless of species, research should be done before buying any fish. Dwarf cichlids, if you can accommodate their water parameter needs can be quite easy to keep in a smaller tank (30 gallons) and can make for a great beginner fish. If you can narrow down and make a list of specific traits you seek in the fish you plan to keep, myself and the rest of the group can offer many suggestions for you. This will ensure you enjoy what you start out with and don't find a need later to get rid of something because you find it boring, not colorful enough, not active enough, etc. for what you desire. If you have specific wishes for fish species we can also help you determine the size of tank you will need to keep them. The same thing applies with how many fish you wish to keep. As you can see, keeping an aquarium isn't as simple as filing it with water and just adding fish and watching them swim. This can be a bit overwhelming for any beginner, so the biggest and most important advice anyone can offer is patience. Take your time, do your research, and ask for advice and help as you work your way through. Learn what you need to do before you do anything and lay out a plan and budget. This will not only save you money in the long term but also will save lives... because once again, the assumption that fish will die every time someone sets up a tank is false. That shouldn't and doesn't have to happen. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> wrote: > > Hi JD, > > Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate > that & that is really helpful to me. > > BR///Faisal > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that you > > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > > > Facts: > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater fish. > > Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > Opinions: > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. There > > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place to > > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I wish > > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off for > > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" moments. > > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find out > > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > > ongoing maintenance. > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > fish > > - You need a tank thermometer > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and easy > > to maintain > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > usually some money. > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use your > > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) so > > start there. > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > > you have fresh food. > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > gravel. > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with water. > > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will displace > > water. > > - Run it empty for several days. > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic to > > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which are > > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > your water before you add more fish. > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > - Platys > > - Tetras > > - Hatchetfish > > - Loach > > - Danios > > - Glo-fish > > - Barbs > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > group of 3 or more. > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have 2-4 > > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > > though. This group is your best resource. > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > here. > > > > Enjoy! > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52673	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: Looking for more plants

Onion plants are quite easy if they are receiving full light, but you should be prepared for the length of the leaves. These get very tall and the leaves will eventually lay over the surface of the water which will shade out plants beneath them. There are a variety of species of onion plant, some not as intrusive to light as others (smaller onion plants/smaller bulbs won't block out light the same was as the larger ones will). Wisteria is a great plant if you don't mind cleaning up after it. The biggest problem with it is that the stalks tend to be brittle and break easily, which means for a lot of "scraps" that float at the surface and need to be skimmed out regularly to protect water quality. I have successfully grown wisteria in many of my tanks over the years without the addition of CO2. Most important for wisteria is again, light. It requires a full light situation where it isn't shaded out by other plants. I would avoid the peacock fern. This is not a true aquatic plant, and while it may grow for a short time in the aquarium, eventually it will rot/die and pollute the water. Asian water fern is a toss up. If you are getting a true asian water fern then it is not a true aquatic plant. You might want to try searching for African water fern, which is a true aquatic fern and can thrive in many situations. You didn't mention water temperature, which will affect plants. African water fern prefers warmer water (78 - 82) to thrive, whereas wisteria does better at mid to upper 70's. I have grown most of the onion plant species in both warm and cold water without issues, however, the thinner leaved/smaller bulb onions prefer mid to upper 70's and can tolerate low 80's. Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Mejia <AMejia1976@...> wrote: > > Hello all. Hope everyone is having a relaxing holiday season… As I work in retail this is the worse time for me. So if you are having a good time… think of me ☺ > > Thanks everyone for the help you all gave me with the lighting a few weeks ago. I settled for the T5 from Aquarium Lighting. It came with a 39w 650nm Pink Roseate bulb and a 39w 6000k bulb. Thus far I really like it. The fish look great. Since I was going from having no light I have increased the time I leave it on from 2 hours per day 3 weeks ago to 4 hours a day this week. > > Now I am interested in getting a few more plants to get this looking like a home to my little guys. Here are my stats for those who might not remember. > > Tank 70g US Tall 36"L x 25"W x18"D > > Parameters - Testing is once a month. No changes for over a year :) > pH @ 7.6 > Ammo @ 0 > Nitrites @ 0 > Nitrates @ 10 > kH @ 6 > gH @ 9 > > Current Stock > > 3 Java Fern > 2 Pieces of Mopani (1 large & 1 small) > 1 Common Pleco > 3 Guppie/Maybe Hybrid > 7 Neon Tetra > 1 Unknown type Neon > 1 X Pristilla Tetra > 5 Danio > 5 Long Fin Danio > 11 Barbs (5 Tiger, 3 Green, 3 blue) > 4 Red Eye Tetras > > These are a few plants that are of interest to me. I hope the Latin names are correct. > > Water Onion â€" crinum thaianum (Really do like this one) > Wisteria â€" Hygrophila Difformis (Not sure on this one as I read it can benefit from co2; I do like it though) > Peacock Fern â€" Selaginella Wildenowii (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) > Asian Waterfern â€" bolbitis heteroclite (Not sure. Some sites say ok for aquarium other say NO WAY!!!) > > Any other suggestions? > > Thanks again; > > Alex >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52674	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Hi Dawn, Great post but why not to put a tank or stand on a tile floor? John*<o)))< * On 1 December 2011 19:58, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > wrote: > ** > > > I have to comment on JD's post here, as I disagree with some info and > would like to complete some of the other stuff mentioned. > > First off, I disagree with the expecting fish to die, that doesn't have to > happen and isn't the "normal" experience if there is patience and things > are done correctly. This group can guide you through everything one step at > a time if you allow it and wait for replies before moving forward. > > Secondly, I'd disagree with 20 gallons being a good size to start with. 30 > gallons is better if you wish to keep it somewhat small. There are a few > reasons I say this... 1. 20 gallons severely limits how many and what kind > of fish you can keep. 30 gallons makes this a little easier. 2. The larger > the tank the easier it is to keep stable, which is of ultimate importance > in successful fish keeping. > > Then there are the fish selections that JD mentioned without completing > the info. Guppies, mollys, swordtails, platys are live bearing fish, which > means their favorite thing to do is to breed. This can present a multitude > of problems for a beginner with a small tank or without the knowledge of > how to prepare for the mass population that happens quickly, (or prevent > it) and also presents a problem when it comes to grouping them by sex if > not prepared/informed. Knowing how to tell the difference between male and > female is important and not pairing them with one of each is important. If > you should decide to start out with any of these species of fish I would > strongly urge you to consult here in the group before buying them. > > Hatchet fish... most of them get quite large. This is another fish not to > buy without first doing some research and/or asking here in the group. Most > species of hatchet fish get way too large for a 20 gallon tank. > > Loaches... not all compatible with all fish. Some loaches get extremely > large, all loaches are sensitive to water quality/chemistry, and some > species of loaches can be quite aggressive and don't pair well with some of > the other fish previously mentioned. This is another group of fishes that > you should be researching and asking about here in the group before > purchasing. > > Glass catfish also get too large to keep a group of 3 - 5 in a 20 gallon > tank. > > And lastly, not all of the fish JD mentioned on that list are compatible. > Mixing barbs with live bearers or tetras for most part won't work. There > are a couple of exceptions, but the majority of barbs are far too > aggressive to be paired with peaceful fish. > > My suggestion is to first decide what size aquarium you can accommodate. > The bigger the better, but some people have space issues to take into > account. Look around your home, find a suitable space you have available > for an aquarium and aquarium stand (never put a tank on a table or dresser, > etc). Measure this space and use those measurements to determine what size > tanks will fit there. For an aquarium over 30 gallons you will want to put > it on a support wall in your home where you know the floor is sturdy and > level. Never put an aquarium/stand on a tile floor and avoid putting it > near heat vents, intake vents, and windows/doors where it can receive a > direct draft. If possible, avoid direct sunlight from hitting the tank > also. > > Very important: make sure whatever tank you work with that it is leveled > before you put water into it. If you need to make adjustments for such a > thing always put shims under the stand, never under the tank itself. (this > can cause breakage of the tank glass) I'd also like to mention that any > aquarium 10 gallons and over that is not placed on an actual aquarium stand > will be void of any manufacturer warranty. Some people think this doesn't > matter, however, if a tank on an aquarium stand leaks or breaks due to a > fault in the product (its not common but it does happen) the manufacturer > will not only replace the tank but in many cases cover the cost of damages > to your personal property and home. This also means keep your receipts for > tank and stand and if there is ever a problem take pictures immediately, > not after cleaning everything up. Send this to the manufacturer and work > with them to recover your losses. Even 30 gallons of water can cause a lot > of damage to your home if it should break or leak. > > Buy your own test kits, even if you decide to go with a 10 gallon tank. > Having these on hand at all times is important. Many aquarium problems > happen in the middle of the night when pet stores are closed. The fastest > way to get help here in the group (or in any group or forum online) is to > have those test results fresh and ready. Learning to test your own water is > vital to long term success, as water chemistry is vital to life for any > fish. API makes a reasonably priced and accurate master test kit that > includes all of what you should have on hand (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, > pH). > > This brings me back to fish selection. Test your tap water before deciding > on what fish to purchase/keep. Some fish need harder water (such as African > cichlids) and some fish prefer softer water (such as many tetras, dwarf > cichlids, etc). Knowing what you can accommodate with your tap water > without having to alter it will help you to be the most successful with the > least amount of problems and expense. > Some people have poor water quality out of the tap which requires extra > steps to make it fish safe. Donna can offer you examples of what she deals > with from her tap (high ammonia and high nitrate) and the headaches it can > bring, not to mention expenses and how it affects the fish. > This is something else the group can help you with as you get to this > stage. > > Decorating the aquarium is also important. Not only do you need to be sure > you have appropriate decor for the types of fish you are keeping, but > enough of it to provide for proper shelter for the fish and to help them > avoid excessive amounts of stress. JD mentioned plastic plants but silk > plants are safer and easier to clean and tend to last longer. There is > benefit to keeping live plants (it can help with water chemistry and oxygen > production) if you have enough of them and allow the group to help you find > proper species for your situation. If you should want to keep live plants, > what light fixture you are using will play a big part in success. This > again is something the group can help you with if it is an option you are > considering, but you should research this before buying the tank or a kit > in case you need a stronger light fixture than is included with a kit. > Depth of the tank will also make a difference in what plants will thrive > and what will not. > > I disagree with JD's assumption that cichlids overall are a bad beginner > fish. There are some species such as dwarf cichlids, angelfish, etc that > can make for wonderful beginner fish. Regardless of species, research > should be done before buying any fish. Dwarf cichlids, if you can > accommodate their water parameter needs can be quite easy to keep in a > smaller tank (30 gallons) and can make for a great beginner fish. > > If you can narrow down and make a list of specific traits you seek in the > fish you plan to keep, myself and the rest of the group can offer many > suggestions for you. This will ensure you enjoy what you start out with and > don't find a need later to get rid of something because you find it boring, > not colorful enough, not active enough, etc. for what you desire. If you > have specific wishes for fish species we can also help you determine the > size of tank you will need to keep them. The same thing applies with how > many fish you wish to keep. > > As you can see, keeping an aquarium isn't as simple as filing it with > water and just adding fish and watching them swim. This can be a bit > overwhelming for any beginner, so the biggest and most important advice > anyone can offer is patience. Take your time, do your research, and ask for > advice and help as you work your way through. Learn what you need to do > before you do anything and lay out a plan and budget. This will not only > save you money in the long term but also will save lives... because once > again, the assumption that fish will die every time someone sets up a tank > is false. That shouldn't and doesn't have to happen. > > I hope this helps. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> > wrote: > > > > Hi JD, > > > > Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate > > that & that is really helpful to me. > > > > BR///Faisal > > > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that > you > > > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > > > > > > Facts: > > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater > fish. > > > Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > > > Opinions: > > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. > There > > > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place > to > > > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I > wish > > > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off > for > > > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > > > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" > moments. > > > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find > out > > > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > > > ongoing maintenance. > > > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > > fish > > > - You need a tank thermometer > > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and > easy > > > to maintain > > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > > usually some money. > > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on > furniture. > > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > > > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use > your > > > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) > so > > > start there. > > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > > > you have fresh food. > > > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > > gravel. > > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with > water. > > > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will > displace > > > water. > > > - Run it empty for several days. > > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic > to > > > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > > > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which > are > > > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > > your water before you add more fish. > > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > > - Platys > > > - Tetras > > > - Hatchetfish > > > - Loach > > > - Danios > > > - Glo-fish > > > - Barbs > > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > > group of 3 or more. > > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have > 2-4 > > > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > > > though. This group is your best resource. > > > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > > here. > > > > > > Enjoy! > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any > one > > > tell > > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be > healthy & > > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be > helpful > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > AquaticLife � A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > You. > > > ���`�.��.><((((�>.���`�.��.���`�.�><((((�> �.���`�.�. , > .���`�..><((((�> > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > important to > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > <�((((><.���`�.��.���`�.�<�((((><�.���`�.�. , .���`�..<�((((><���`�.��. > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > you > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > the > > > home page. > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > which > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > replies. > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52675	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Tile floors are not typically level or stable enough for the support an aquarium and its stand need to prevent cracks and leakage. If you talk to any of the manufacturers of aquariums they will advise the same thing. (that's actually where I learned it from) Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > Great post but why not to put a tank or stand on a tile floor? > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 1 December 2011 19:58, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@... > > wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > I have to comment on JD's post here, as I disagree with some info and > > would like to complete some of the other stuff mentioned. > > > > First off, I disagree with the expecting fish to die, that doesn't have to > > happen and isn't the "normal" experience if there is patience and things > > are done correctly. This group can guide you through everything one step at > > a time if you allow it and wait for replies before moving forward. > > > > Secondly, I'd disagree with 20 gallons being a good size to start with. 30 > > gallons is better if you wish to keep it somewhat small. There are a few > > reasons I say this... 1. 20 gallons severely limits how many and what kind > > of fish you can keep. 30 gallons makes this a little easier. 2. The larger > > the tank the easier it is to keep stable, which is of ultimate importance > > in successful fish keeping. > > > > Then there are the fish selections that JD mentioned without completing > > the info. Guppies, mollys, swordtails, platys are live bearing fish, which > > means their favorite thing to do is to breed. This can present a multitude > > of problems for a beginner with a small tank or without the knowledge of > > how to prepare for the mass population that happens quickly, (or prevent > > it) and also presents a problem when it comes to grouping them by sex if > > not prepared/informed. Knowing how to tell the difference between male and > > female is important and not pairing them with one of each is important. If > > you should decide to start out with any of these species of fish I would > > strongly urge you to consult here in the group before buying them. > > > > Hatchet fish... most of them get quite large. This is another fish not to > > buy without first doing some research and/or asking here in the group. Most > > species of hatchet fish get way too large for a 20 gallon tank. > > > > Loaches... not all compatible with all fish. Some loaches get extremely > > large, all loaches are sensitive to water quality/chemistry, and some > > species of loaches can be quite aggressive and don't pair well with some of > > the other fish previously mentioned. This is another group of fishes that > > you should be researching and asking about here in the group before > > purchasing. > > > > Glass catfish also get too large to keep a group of 3 - 5 in a 20 gallon > > tank. > > > > And lastly, not all of the fish JD mentioned on that list are compatible. > > Mixing barbs with live bearers or tetras for most part won't work. There > > are a couple of exceptions, but the majority of barbs are far too > > aggressive to be paired with peaceful fish. > > > > My suggestion is to first decide what size aquarium you can accommodate. > > The bigger the better, but some people have space issues to take into > > account. Look around your home, find a suitable space you have available > > for an aquarium and aquarium stand (never put a tank on a table or dresser, > > etc). Measure this space and use those measurements to determine what size > > tanks will fit there. For an aquarium over 30 gallons you will want to put > > it on a support wall in your home where you know the floor is sturdy and > > level. Never put an aquarium/stand on a tile floor and avoid putting it > > near heat vents, intake vents, and windows/doors where it can receive a > > direct draft. If possible, avoid direct sunlight from hitting the tank > > also. > > > > Very important: make sure whatever tank you work with that it is leveled > > before you put water into it. If you need to make adjustments for such a > > thing always put shims under the stand, never under the tank itself. (this > > can cause breakage of the tank glass) I'd also like to mention that any > > aquarium 10 gallons and over that is not placed on an actual aquarium stand > > will be void of any manufacturer warranty. Some people think this doesn't > > matter, however, if a tank on an aquarium stand leaks or breaks due to a > > fault in the product (its not common but it does happen) the manufacturer > > will not only replace the tank but in many cases cover the cost of damages > > to your personal property and home. This also means keep your receipts for > > tank and stand and if there is ever a problem take pictures immediately, > > not after cleaning everything up. Send this to the manufacturer and work > > with them to recover your losses. Even 30 gallons of water can cause a lot > > of damage to your home if it should break or leak. > > > > Buy your own test kits, even if you decide to go with a 10 gallon tank. > > Having these on hand at all times is important. Many aquarium problems > > happen in the middle of the night when pet stores are closed. The fastest > > way to get help here in the group (or in any group or forum online) is to > > have those test results fresh and ready. Learning to test your own water is > > vital to long term success, as water chemistry is vital to life for any > > fish. API makes a reasonably priced and accurate master test kit that > > includes all of what you should have on hand (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, > > pH). > > > > This brings me back to fish selection. Test your tap water before deciding > > on what fish to purchase/keep. Some fish need harder water (such as African > > cichlids) and some fish prefer softer water (such as many tetras, dwarf > > cichlids, etc). Knowing what you can accommodate with your tap water > > without having to alter it will help you to be the most successful with the > > least amount of problems and expense. > > Some people have poor water quality out of the tap which requires extra > > steps to make it fish safe. Donna can offer you examples of what she deals > > with from her tap (high ammonia and high nitrate) and the headaches it can > > bring, not to mention expenses and how it affects the fish. > > This is something else the group can help you with as you get to this > > stage. > > > > Decorating the aquarium is also important. Not only do you need to be sure > > you have appropriate decor for the types of fish you are keeping, but > > enough of it to provide for proper shelter for the fish and to help them > > avoid excessive amounts of stress. JD mentioned plastic plants but silk > > plants are safer and easier to clean and tend to last longer. There is > > benefit to keeping live plants (it can help with water chemistry and oxygen > > production) if you have enough of them and allow the group to help you find > > proper species for your situation. If you should want to keep live plants, > > what light fixture you are using will play a big part in success. This > > again is something the group can help you with if it is an option you are > > considering, but you should research this before buying the tank or a kit > > in case you need a stronger light fixture than is included with a kit. > > Depth of the tank will also make a difference in what plants will thrive > > and what will not. > > > > I disagree with JD's assumption that cichlids overall are a bad beginner > > fish. There are some species such as dwarf cichlids, angelfish, etc that > > can make for wonderful beginner fish. Regardless of species, research > > should be done before buying any fish. Dwarf cichlids, if you can > > accommodate their water parameter needs can be quite easy to keep in a > > smaller tank (30 gallons) and can make for a great beginner fish. > > > > If you can narrow down and make a list of specific traits you seek in the > > fish you plan to keep, myself and the rest of the group can offer many > > suggestions for you. This will ensure you enjoy what you start out with and > > don't find a need later to get rid of something because you find it boring, > > not colorful enough, not active enough, etc. for what you desire. If you > > have specific wishes for fish species we can also help you determine the > > size of tank you will need to keep them. The same thing applies with how > > many fish you wish to keep. > > > > As you can see, keeping an aquarium isn't as simple as filing it with > > water and just adding fish and watching them swim. This can be a bit > > overwhelming for any beginner, so the biggest and most important advice > > anyone can offer is patience. Take your time, do your research, and ask for > > advice and help as you work your way through. Learn what you need to do > > before you do anything and lay out a plan and budget. This will not only > > save you money in the long term but also will save lives... because once > > again, the assumption that fish will die every time someone sets up a tank > > is false. That shouldn't and doesn't have to happen. > > > > I hope this helps. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi JD, > > > > > > Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate > > > that & that is really helpful to me. > > > > > > BR///Faisal > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@> wrote: > > > > > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that > > you > > > > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > > > > > > > > > Facts: > > > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater > > fish. > > > > Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > > > > > Opinions: > > > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. > > There > > > > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place > > to > > > > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I > > wish > > > > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off > > for > > > > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > > > > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" > > moments. > > > > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find > > out > > > > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > > > > ongoing maintenance. > > > > > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > > > fish > > > > - You need a tank thermometer > > > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and > > easy > > > > to maintain > > > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > > > usually some money. > > > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on > > furniture. > > > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > > > > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use > > your > > > > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) > > so > > > > start there. > > > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > > > > you have fresh food. > > > > > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > > > gravel. > > > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with > > water. > > > > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will > > displace > > > > water. > > > > - Run it empty for several days. > > > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic > > to > > > > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > > > > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which > > are > > > > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > > > your water before you add more fish. > > > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > > > - Platys > > > > - Tetras > > > > - Hatchetfish > > > > - Loach > > > > - Danios > > > > - Glo-fish > > > > - Barbs > > > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > > > group of 3 or more. > > > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have > > 2-4 > > > > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > > > > though. This group is your best resource. > > > > > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > > > here. > > > > > > > > Enjoy! > > > > JD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any > > one > > > > tell > > > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be > > healthy & > > > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be > > helpful > > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank > > You. > > > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , > > .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT > > important to > > > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, > > you > > > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on > > the > > > > home page. > > > > > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, > > which > > > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option > > > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post > > replies. > > > > > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual > > > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52676	From: kuradi8	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

His fins have grown longer but not much. But his body is still little. All of my other Bettas have shown significant growth in the first few months. PuPu has not. I think he's going to stay little. ~Kai > SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > Hi Kai, > > Maybe PuPu is just a late developer, has he grown any since you posted his picture in September? My Goldfish all grow at different rates, a couple of them stayed smaller than the rest for a couple of years but they've all gotten to a similar size now & are still growing slowly. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 30 November 2011 18:05, Kai wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > Little PuPu is doing quite well. > > > > Months later, he is still TINY. > > > > I think he's a "Little Fish." You know, Dwarfish. :oD > > > > Literally, My Little Munchkin! > > ~Kai > > > > WAY BACK in the first few days of September Kai wrote: > > > > > > Thanks! I think he's a little cutie too. > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > Enid Rodriguez wrote: > > > > > > > > very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than > > normal. > > > > Enid > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > > > > > I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but > > beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." > > > > > > > > So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas > > marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a > > Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. > > > > > > > > I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see > > them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked > > "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one > > and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. > > > > > > > > Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/listMy husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names > > from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but > > he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely > > bigger than a Quarter. > > > > > > > > Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in > > him too. :o) > > > > > > > > So long live PuPu! > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52677	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow labs) are cichlids and a GREAT beginner fish better than Angels I would say. But they do like pH=7.8 or higher. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? I have to comment on JD's post here, as I disagree with some info and would like to complete some of the other stuff mentioned. First off, I disagree with the expecting fish to die, that doesn't have to happen and isn't the "normal" experience if there is patience and things are done correctly. This group can guide you through everything one step at a time if you allow it and wait for replies before moving forward. Secondly, I'd disagree with 20 gallons being a good size to start with. 30 gallons is better if you wish to keep it somewhat small. There are a few reasons I say this... 1. 20 gallons severely limits how many and what kind of fish you can keep. 30 gallons makes this a little easier. 2. The larger the tank the easier it is to keep stable, which is of ultimate importance in successful fish keeping. Then there are the fish selections that JD mentioned without completing the info. Guppies, mollys, swordtails, platys are live bearing fish, which means their favorite thing to do is to breed. This can present a multitude of problems for a beginner with a small tank or without the knowledge of how to prepare for the mass population that happens quickly, (or prevent it) and also presents a problem when it comes to grouping them by sex if not prepared/informed. Knowing how to tell the difference between male and female is important and not pairing them with one of each is important. If you should decide to start out with any of these species of fish I would strongly urge you to consult here in the group before buying them. Hatchet fish... most of them get quite large. This is another fish not to buy without first doing some research and/or asking here in the group. Most species of hatchet fish get way too large for a 20 gallon tank. Loaches... not all compatible with all fish. Some loaches get extremely large, all loaches are sensitive to water quality/chemistry, and some species of loaches can be quite aggressive and don't pair well with some of the other fish previously mentioned. This is another group of fishes that you should be researching and asking about here in the group before purchasing. Glass catfish also get too large to keep a group of 3 - 5 in a 20 gallon tank. And lastly, not all of the fish JD mentioned on that list are compatible. Mixing barbs with live bearers or tetras for most part won't work. There are a couple of exceptions, but the majority of barbs are far too aggressive to be paired with peaceful fish. My suggestion is to first decide what size aquarium you can accommodate. The bigger the better, but some people have space issues to take into account. Look around your home, find a suitable space you have available for an aquarium and aquarium stand (never put a tank on a table or dresser, etc). Measure this space and use those measurements to determine what size tanks will fit there. For an aquarium over 30 gallons you will want to put it on a support wall in your home where you know the floor is sturdy and level. Never put an aquarium/stand on a tile floor and avoid putting it near heat vents, intake vents, and windows/doors where it can receive a direct draft. If possible, avoid direct sunlight from hitting the tank also. Very important: make sure whatever tank you work with that it is leveled before you put water into it. If you need to make adjustments for such a thing always put shims under the stand, never under the tank itself. (this can cause breakage of the tank glass) I'd also like to mention that any aquarium 10 gallons and over that is not placed on an actual aquarium stand will be void of any manufacturer warranty. Some people think this doesn't matter, however, if a tank on an aquarium stand leaks or breaks due to a fault in the product (its not common but it does happen) the manufacturer will not only replace the tank but in many cases cover the cost of damages to your personal property and home. This also means keep your receipts for tank and stand and if there is ever a problem take pictures immediately, not after cleaning everything up. Send this to the manufacturer and work with them to recover your losses. Even 30 gallons of water can cause a lot of damage to your home if it should break or leak. Buy your own test kits, even if you decide to go with a 10 gallon tank. Having these on hand at all times is important. Many aquarium problems happen in the middle of the night when pet stores are closed. The fastest way to get help here in the group (or in any group or forum online) is to have those test results fresh and ready. Learning to test your own water is vital to long term success, as water chemistry is vital to life for any fish. API makes a reasonably priced and accurate master test kit that includes all of what you should have on hand (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH). This brings me back to fish selection. Test your tap water before deciding on what fish to purchase/keep. Some fish need harder water (such as African cichlids) and some fish prefer softer water (such as many tetras, dwarf cichlids, etc). Knowing what you can accommodate with your tap water without having to alter it will help you to be the most successful with the least amount of problems and expense. Some people have poor water quality out of the tap which requires extra steps to make it fish safe. Donna can offer you examples of what she deals with from her tap (high ammonia and high nitrate) and the headaches it can bring, not to mention expenses and how it affects the fish. This is something else the group can help you with as you get to this stage. Decorating the aquarium is also important. Not only do you need to be sure you have appropriate decor for the types of fish you are keeping, but enough of it to provide for proper shelter for the fish and to help them avoid excessive amounts of stress. JD mentioned plastic plants but silk plants are safer and easier to clean and tend to last longer. There is benefit to keeping live plants (it can help with water chemistry and oxygen production) if you have enough of them and allow the group to help you find proper species for your situation. If you should want to keep live plants, what light fixture you are using will play a big part in success. This again is something the group can help you with if it is an option you are considering, but you should research this before buying the tank or a kit in case you need a stronger light fixture than is included with a kit. Depth of the tank will also make a difference in what plants will thrive and what will not. I disagree with JD's assumption that cichlids overall are a bad beginner fish. There are some species such as dwarf cichlids, angelfish, etc that can make for wonderful beginner fish. Regardless of species, research should be done before buying any fish. Dwarf cichlids, if you can accommodate their water parameter needs can be quite easy to keep in a smaller tank (30 gallons) and can make for a great beginner fish. If you can narrow down and make a list of specific traits you seek in the fish you plan to keep, myself and the rest of the group can offer many suggestions for you. This will ensure you enjoy what you start out with and don't find a need later to get rid of something because you find it boring, not colorful enough, not active enough, etc. for what you desire. If you have specific wishes for fish species we can also help you determine the size of tank you will need to keep them. The same thing applies with how many fish you wish to keep. As you can see, keeping an aquarium isn't as simple as filing it with water and just adding fish and watching them swim. This can be a bit overwhelming for any beginner, so the biggest and most important advice anyone can offer is patience. Take your time, do your research, and ask for advice and help as you work your way through. Learn what you need to do before you do anything and lay out a plan and budget. This will not only save you money in the long term but also will save lives... because once again, the assumption that fish will die every time someone sets up a tank is false. That shouldn't and doesn't have to happen. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> wrote: > > Hi JD, > > Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate > that & that is really helpful to me. > > BR///Faisal > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that you > > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > > > Facts: > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater fish. > > Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > Opinions: > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. There > > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place to > > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I wish > > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off for > > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" moments. > > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find out > > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > > ongoing maintenance. > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > fish > > - You need a tank thermometer > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and easy > > to maintain > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > usually some money. > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use your > > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) so > > start there. > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > > you have fresh food. > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > gravel. > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with water. > > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will displace > > water. > > - Run it empty for several days. > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic to > > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which are > > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > your water before you add more fish. > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > - Platys > > - Tetras > > - Hatchetfish > > - Loach > > - Danios > > - Glo-fish > > - Barbs > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > group of 3 or more. > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have 2-4 > > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > > though. This group is your best resource. > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > here. > > > > Enjoy! > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com> to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com> for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com> to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52678	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Just wanted to add one more thing, Dawn covered a lot of good points though. When you're first setting up a brand new aquarium you need to be aware of cycling the tank properly. If you just start adding fish without knowing anything about the nitrogen cycle then you're going to VERY soon have BIG problems with Ammonia poisoning (first) then Nitrite poisoning afterwards. If you're going to cycle a fish tank with fish in it keep in mind that this can cause health problems in ALL fish and shorten their lifespan, if not out-right kill them if they aren't hardy enough to survive the whole process. You will want a test kit, preferably the liquid reagent kind. API makes a good master test kit that you can get from walmart.com and order it "ship to store" for local pickup, which is free shipping. This option is available for MOST walmarts (not mine though). Here is a good website for information on the nitrogen cycle in the freshwater aquarium (and ponds). http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html The best way to cycle a tank is called "fish-less cycling" where you buy plain (no perfumes or additives) Ammonia and use that daily for about a month, testing your tank water parameters daily until there are no test results (0) for Ammonia and Nitrites. Then the tank is safe to add fish. Otherwise a shorter way is to buy Dr. Tim's One and Only and add that to your tank just before adding fish, this adds all the nitrifying bacteria to your water/tank so that you don't have to "grow" them yourself with the ammonia fish-less cycling, or cycling the tank with cheap fish. Amber On 11/30/2011 11:21 AM, jasadell wrote: > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that > you are new to keeping aquaria. > > Facts: > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater > fish. Tropical fish need warm water. > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > Opinions: > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. > There are several things to consider and there is really no one single > place to get all of the information that you need to prevent you from > saying "I wish I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community > tank on and off for 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few > months ago, and I have already experienced several "I wish I had known > that beforehand" moments. Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find > out it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish > requires ongoing maintenance. > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > - You need a tank with a tank light. > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > fish > - You need a tank thermometer > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and > easy to maintain > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > usually some money. > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are > more specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use > your imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not > maintain) so start there. > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones > so you have fresh food. > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > gravel. > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with > water. Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor > will displace water. > - Run it empty for several days. > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic > to fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some > tap water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, > which are highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > your water before you add more fish. > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > - Platys > - Tetras > - Hatchetfish > - Loach > - Danios > - Glo-fish > - Barbs > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > group of 3 or more. > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have > 2-4 week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of > stores, though. This group is your best resource. > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > here. > > Enjoy! > JD > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52679	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

I am with Donna on this one. The yellow labs are great fish. Mike G -----Original Message----- From: djransome@... To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 12:33 pm Subject: RE: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? Labidochromis caeruleus (yellow labs) are cichlids and a GREAT beginner fish better than Angels I would say. But they do like pH=7.8 or higher. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 2:59 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? I have to comment on JD's post here, as I disagree with some info and would like to complete some of the other stuff mentioned. First off, I disagree with the expecting fish to die, that doesn't have to happen and isn't the "normal" experience if there is patience and things are done correctly. This group can guide you through everything one step at a time if you allow it and wait for replies before moving forward. Secondly, I'd disagree with 20 gallons being a good size to start with. 30 gallons is better if you wish to keep it somewhat small. There are a few reasons I say this... 1. 20 gallons severely limits how many and what kind of fish you can keep. 30 gallons makes this a little easier. 2. The larger the tank the easier it is to keep stable, which is of ultimate importance in successful fish keeping. Then there are the fish selections that JD mentioned without completing the info. Guppies, mollys, swordtails, platys are live bearing fish, which means their favorite thing to do is to breed. This can present a multitude of problems for a beginner with a small tank or without the knowledge of how to prepare for the mass population that happens quickly, (or prevent it) and also presents a problem when it comes to grouping them by sex if not prepared/informed. Knowing how to tell the difference between male and female is important and not pairing them with one of each is important. If you should decide to start out with any of these species of fish I would strongly urge you to consult here in the group before buying them. Hatchet fish... most of them get quite large. This is another fish not to buy without first doing some research and/or asking here in the group. Most species of hatchet fish get way too large for a 20 gallon tank. Loaches... not all compatible with all fish. Some loaches get extremely large, all loaches are sensitive to water quality/chemistry, and some species of loaches can be quite aggressive and don't pair well with some of the other fish previously mentioned. This is another group of fishes that you should be researching and asking about here in the group before purchasing. Glass catfish also get too large to keep a group of 3 - 5 in a 20 gallon tank. And lastly, not all of the fish JD mentioned on that list are compatible. Mixing barbs with live bearers or tetras for most part won't work. There are a couple of exceptions, but the majority of barbs are far too aggressive to be paired with peaceful fish. My suggestion is to first decide what size aquarium you can accommodate. The bigger the better, but some people have space issues to take into account. Look around your home, find a suitable space you have available for an aquarium and aquarium stand (never put a tank on a table or dresser, etc). Measure this space and use those measurements to determine what size tanks will fit there. For an aquarium over 30 gallons you will want to put it on a support wall in your home where you know the floor is sturdy and level. Never put an aquarium/stand on a tile floor and avoid putting it near heat vents, intake vents, and windows/doors where it can receive a direct draft. If possible, avoid direct sunlight from hitting the tank also. Very important: make sure whatever tank you work with that it is leveled before you put water into it. If you need to make adjustments for such a thing always put shims under the stand, never under the tank itself. (this can cause breakage of the tank glass) I'd also like to mention that any aquarium 10 gallons and over that is not placed on an actual aquarium stand will be void of any manufacturer warranty. Some people think this doesn't matter, however, if a tank on an aquarium stand leaks or breaks due to a fault in the product (its not common but it does happen) the manufacturer will not only replace the tank but in many cases cover the cost of damages to your personal property and home. This also means keep your receipts for tank and stand and if there is ever a problem take pictures immediately, not after cleaning everything up. Send this to the manufacturer and work with them to recover your losses. Even 30 gallons of water can cause a lot of damage to your home if it should break or leak. Buy your own test kits, even if you decide to go with a 10 gallon tank. Having these on hand at all times is important. Many aquarium problems happen in the middle of the night when pet stores are closed. The fastest way to get help here in the group (or in any group or forum online) is to have those test results fresh and ready. Learning to test your own water is vital to long term success, as water chemistry is vital to life for any fish. API makes a reasonably priced and accurate master test kit that includes all of what you should have on hand (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH). This brings me back to fish selection. Test your tap water before deciding on what fish to purchase/keep. Some fish need harder water (such as African cichlids) and some fish prefer softer water (such as many tetras, dwarf cichlids, etc). Knowing what you can accommodate with your tap water without having to alter it will help you to be the most successful with the least amount of problems and expense. Some people have poor water quality out of the tap which requires extra steps to make it fish safe. Donna can offer you examples of what she deals with from her tap (high ammonia and high nitrate) and the headaches it can bring, not to mention expenses and how it affects the fish. This is something else the group can help you with as you get to this stage. Decorating the aquarium is also important. Not only do you need to be sure you have appropriate decor for the types of fish you are keeping, but enough of it to provide for proper shelter for the fish and to help them avoid excessive amounts of stress. JD mentioned plastic plants but silk plants are safer and easier to clean and tend to last longer. There is benefit to keeping live plants (it can help with water chemistry and oxygen production) if you have enough of them and allow the group to help you find proper species for your situation. If you should want to keep live plants, what light fixture you are using will play a big part in success. This again is something the group can help you with if it is an option you are considering, but you should research this before buying the tank or a kit in case you need a stronger light fixture than is included with a kit. Depth of the tank will also make a difference in what plants will thrive and what will not. I disagree with JD's assumption that cichlids overall are a bad beginner fish. There are some species such as dwarf cichlids, angelfish, etc that can make for wonderful beginner fish. Regardless of species, research should be done before buying any fish. Dwarf cichlids, if you can accommodate their water parameter needs can be quite easy to keep in a smaller tank (30 gallons) and can make for a great beginner fish. If you can narrow down and make a list of specific traits you seek in the fish you plan to keep, myself and the rest of the group can offer many suggestions for you. This will ensure you enjoy what you start out with and don't find a need later to get rid of something because you find it boring, not colorful enough, not active enough, etc. for what you desire. If you have specific wishes for fish species we can also help you determine the size of tank you will need to keep them. The same thing applies with how many fish you wish to keep. As you can see, keeping an aquarium isn't as simple as filing it with water and just adding fish and watching them swim. This can be a bit overwhelming for any beginner, so the biggest and most important advice anyone can offer is patience. Take your time, do your research, and ask for advice and help as you work your way through. Learn what you need to do before you do anything and lay out a plan and budget. This will not only save you money in the long term but also will save lives... because once again, the assumption that fish will die every time someone sets up a tank is false. That shouldn't and doesn't have to happen. I hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@...> wrote: > > Hi JD, > > Thanks a lot for your detail & informative message. I really appreciate > that & that is really helpful to me. > > BR///Faisal > > On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:21 AM, jasadell <jasadell@...> wrote: > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that you > > are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > > > Facts: > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater fish. > > Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > Opinions: > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. There > > are several things to consider and there is really no one single place to > > get all of the information that you need to prevent you from saying "I wish > > I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community tank on and off for > > 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few months ago, and I have > > already experienced several "I wish I had known that beforehand" moments. > > Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find out > > it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish requires > > ongoing maintenance. > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > fish > > - You need a tank thermometer > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and easy > > to maintain > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > usually some money. > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are more > > specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use your > > imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not maintain) so > > start there. > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones so > > you have fresh food. > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > gravel. > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with water. > > Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor will displace > > water. > > - Run it empty for several days. > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic to > > fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some tap > > water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, which are > > highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > your water before you add more fish. > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > - Platys > > - Tetras > > - Hatchetfish > > - Loach > > - Danios > > - Glo-fish > > - Barbs > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > group of 3 or more. > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have 2-4 > > week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of stores, > > though. This group is your best resource. > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > here. > > > > Enjoy! > > JD > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>; , Faisal Ashraf <faisal.ashhraf@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can any one > > tell > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be healthy & > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be helpful > > > for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > > > > > Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. > > ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> > > PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to > > the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the > > SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- > > <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. > > We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > > > > If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you > > can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the > > home page. > > > > Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-digest%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive the digest, which > > includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email > > > > Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-nomail%40yahoogroups.com>; for the No E-Mail option > > where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. > > > > Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com <mailto:aquaticlife-normal%40yahoogroups.com>; to receive individual > > e-mails.Yahoo! 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52680	From: Bill	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Amber.. I would never ever say "the best" about any topic on here... What I would suggest as a well balanced approach to cycling a tank is the following:  Beg, borrow or steal some established media from a tank you trust.. either substrate or filter media.  This will provide the beneficial bacteria needed to assist in the cycle.... Then I would add one or two hardy fish (Any kind of Barb,, i hate em)...to provide the ammonia.  Now you've a cycle started.. Step two?.. Monitor your water chemistry daily to monitor how your cycling is going. (I dont know of a better kit than the API master kit).  It's a tough balancing act but it is possible to see only the most minor fluctuations in Am. Nit. and Nitra. during this process.   As the ammonia load increases, the bacteria should be able to keep pace.  A week later?.. add a few more of the same specie if you've selected a schooling type fish..  Bottled bacteria?.. Lotsa debate going on in that regard.  Bacteria cannot exist in a bottled state without being fed.  Ammonia in fact.  A friend of mine owns an upscale, by appt only fish store and will upon request, order fresh live bacteria with overnight delivery when he needs it to set up an instant tank.  He'll not guarantee the viability of the bacteria for over 24 hrs if the client isn't ready for his effort on day of delivery.   ________________________________ From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:57 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?   Just wanted to add one more thing, Dawn covered a lot of good points though. When you're first setting up a brand new aquarium you need to be aware of cycling the tank properly. If you just start adding fish without knowing anything about the nitrogen cycle then you're going to VERY soon have BIG problems with Ammonia poisoning (first) then Nitrite poisoning afterwards. If you're going to cycle a fish tank with fish in it keep in mind that this can cause health problems in ALL fish and shorten their lifespan, if not out-right kill them if they aren't hardy enough to survive the whole process. You will want a test kit, preferably the liquid reagent kind. API makes a good master test kit that you can get from walmart.com and order it "ship to store" for local pickup, which is free shipping. This option is available for MOST walmarts (not mine though). Here is a good website for information on the nitrogen cycle in the freshwater aquarium (and ponds). http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html The best way to cycle a tank is called "fish-less cycling" where you buy plain (no perfumes or additives) Ammonia and use that daily for about a month, testing your tank water parameters daily until there are no test results (0) for Ammonia and Nitrites. Then the tank is safe to add fish. Otherwise a shorter way is to buy Dr. Tim's One and Only and add that to your tank just before adding fish, this adds all the nitrifying bacteria to your water/tank so that you don't have to "grow" them yourself with the ammonia fish-less cycling, or cycling the tank with cheap fish. Amber On 11/30/2011 11:21 AM, jasadell wrote: > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that > you are new to keeping aquaria. > > Facts: > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater > fish. Tropical fish need warm water. > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > Opinions: > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. > There are several things to consider and there is really no one single > place to get all of the information that you need to prevent you from > saying "I wish I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community > tank on and off for 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few > months ago, and I have already experienced several "I wish I had known > that beforehand" moments. Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find > out it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish > requires ongoing maintenance. > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > - You need a tank with a tank light. > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > fish > - You need a tank thermometer > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and > easy to maintain > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > usually some money. > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are > more specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use > your imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not > maintain) so start there. > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones > so you have fresh food. > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > gravel. > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with > water. Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor > will displace water. > - Run it empty for several days. > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic > to fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some > tap water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, > which are highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > your water before you add more fish. > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > - Platys > - Tetras > - Hatchetfish > - Loach > - Danios > - Glo-fish > - Barbs > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > group of 3 or more. > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have > 2-4 week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of > stores, though. This group is your best resource. > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > here. > > Enjoy! > JD > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52681	From: Mike Whitfield	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

Unless you fill it with ice. Then you could keep it for days. ;) If the OP is set on gold fish, there are "tropical" fish that will coexist. Gold barbs like cooler water, as do White Cloud Mountain fish, guppies, some rainbowfish, and zebra danios to name a few. One of the big problems is going to be growth versus final size; I've caught wild goldfish to about 16" long. Fancies don't grow as big, but grow plenty big enough to eat barbs, White Clouds, and danios. You won't be able to keep schools of smaller fish, or most plants either (goldfish will eat them unless they are very tough or packed with allelochemicals.) Depending on where you are, you may be able to catch colorful local fish such as sunfish or minnows which will happily coexist with goldfish, or buy them on line. Be aware though that many species of sunfish may pair off and breed, and if so some become as vicious as cichlids toward tankmates. Were I going to keep gold fish, I'd dedicate a large tank to them. As far as size, for most fish bigger is better. 55 gallon tanks are not much more expensive than are 29 gallon tanks, especially around Christmas. You'll spend more on filtration and heaters - but then, if you keep goldfish in a conditioned room, heaters are only a potential threat. Two smaller hang-on filters (say, 300 gph each) aren't too expensive and provide some protection, especially since large gold fish can bump the filter tube and break suction. Also, you can use 4' lamps. My biggest concern would be the structure under the tank, as a 55 gallon tank with gravel, rock and stand will be upwards of 600 pounds in a 12" x 48" space. You need a strong, stable floor and a good, stout stand placed across the floor joists to distribute the load. Another concern is liability; if you rent or own an apartment, 55 gallons may be a lot of potential damage. Check your lease or restrictions to see if there are size restrictions. The final concern would be size; although a 55 gallon tank looks big to a beginner, it's really not a suitable home for common goldfish or for more than a few fancies. A 75 gallon would be more suitable, but the difference in cost between a 55 gallon and a 75 gallon will be in the range of 2:1 or more. A 75 gallon can be daunting for a beginner. Also, don't forget the clean-up crew. Once you have established agae for grazing, you'll want to add some bristlenose catfish or other reasonably large armored plecostamus-type catfish for algae control - unless you LIKE seeing a buttload of snails. And make sure you buy a Python for easy water changes! Hope that gave you food for thought, Faisal. MW On 11/27/2011 4:55 PM, Donna Ransome wrote: > > I do not agree that fish grow to the size of the aquarium. You could not > keep even one Metriaclima estherae in a 29G. > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>] On > Behalf Of The_ONE > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 2:40 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? > > Doesn't complicate your life ...start with 29 gallons, enough to handle, > every fish grow according the size, of the aquarium, if the fish grow too > big, just change it in the pet shop... is the perfect size...not too big, > not too small... > > EFRAIN MONTANEZ HIRALDO > Graphic Design & Illustration for Media > > ________________________________ > From: haecklers <haecklers@... <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > <mailto:haecklers%40gmail.com> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:39 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? > > If you want just bright yellow fish, the yellow labs they sell in the > African cichlid section of pet stores are usually healthy and hardy. You > could add in some danios as dither fish (the genetically modified "Glo > Fish" > are actually danios and they get along great with normal danios), and a > bristlenose pleco (ancistrus is another name they go by) or two to > keep the > walls clean for you. Yellow labs and danios do best in a group. I > agree a 55 > gallon would be a good size, the bigger tanks are easier to keep stable. > > If you like the flat body/exotic shape, then angelfish may be for you > - they > get quite large and have interesting behavior. Or rainbowfish, which look > dull and grey in pet stores but mature to be very large fish with > beautiful > bright colors. > > Your choice may also depend on the pH of your tap water, some prefer > high pH > and some like low pH better. Also the type of tank you prefer to set up. > Angelfish prefer driftwood and plants, African cichlids mostly prefer > a rock > wall with lots of caves to swim in and out of, and rainbowfish like > planted > tanks. You can google the different kinds of fish to see pictures and read > about their care requirements. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi Faisal, > > > > As Donna said you really need huge tanks for any kind of Goldfish & they > > are not compatible with much else except their own type. Even then you > have > > to make sure not to keep streamlined [regular] Goldfish in with fancy > > fat-bodied types because they will get bullied. Goldfish need lots of > space > > & massive filtration, they are an expensive & time consuming fish to > keep > > properly. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 27 November 2011 15:26, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > For gold fish, you need 30 gallons per fish so that would be a BIG > tank. > > > Also, they like the water fairly cold so they don't mix well with > other > > > fish. > > > > > > Sharks are marine unless you mean the fish that are called freshwater > > > sharks. Freshwater sharks tend to be catfish and some are not suitable > to > > > be kept in aquaria. > > > > > > Yellow tangs are marine, at least the ones I know about. > > > > > > Are you thinking of keeping a freshwater or marine tank? > > > > > > I'll throw out a freshwater example that would work for a newbie > to fish > > > tanks. > > > > > > A 55 gallon rectangle shaped tank that measures 48" x 12". > > > > > > Stock it with Lake Malawi mbuna: > > > > > > 1m:4f Iodotropheus sprengerae (rusties) > > > > > > 1m:4f Cynotilapia sp. Hara (white tops) > > > > > > 1m:4f Metriaclima estherae (red zebras) > > > > > > You could add 5 Synodontis lucipinnis which are catfish but are > reminiscent > > > of sharks in their shape and movements. > > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:29 AM > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > That question is also coming to my mind. > > > > > > It should be Gold Fish, some small sharks, Yellow tangs & other good > > > quality & unique fishes (might be expensive one) which you experience > guys > > > suggest me. > > > > > > As I asked earlier, I am totally new in this field so suggestions from > you > > > guys should be much helpful for me. > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Donna Ransome <djransome@... > > > <mailto:djransome%40optonline.net> >wrote: > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > What kind of fish did you have in mind? The size will vary with the > fish. > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > ] > > > > > > On > > > > Behalf Of Faisal Ashraf > > > > Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 12:38 AM > > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > > > Subject: [AquaticLife] What size of Aquarium is Good? > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Guys, > > > > > > > > I am new to this group. I am now planning to buy Aquarium. Can > any one > > > tell > > > > me that normally what size is perfect & good in which fish be > healthy > & > > > > getting bigger. > > > > > > > > Please share your experience. > > > > > > > > If anyone can share the pics of his aquarium, that should also be > helpful > > > > for me. > > > > > > > > BR/// Faisal > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52682	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: Re: What size of Aquarium is Good?

In regards to cycling, both Bill and Amber have good suggestions. There are safe ways to cycle a tank with fish, if, as Bill suggested, you are working with sturdy fish that can handle such a thing, and, of course, there are only 1 - 2 fish to get things started so the ammonia and nitrite spikes are not high. Fishless cycling is another approach that many have used successfully, however it is not my preferred method. I have also known people to have just as many problems with fishless cycling as those who do it with fish, such as finding and using the proper type of ammonia. The live bacteria products available can be good and bad, depending on the situation and how much a person knows about fish keeping, the nitrogen cycle, etc. before hand. I wouldn't suggest a product like that to a beginner because it does bring with it a level of risk and needs to be monitored closely. When something like that goes bad it tends to go really bad and kills a lot of animals, not to mention wastes a lot of money, and the outcome is to empty the tank and start over. Obtaining a live culture from another tank is a great idea, IF there is one available. Not everyone has access to such things. Barbs are not the only choices of sturdy fish that do well with cycling an aquarium if its done properly. Danios are heartier than barbs, but there are also a few species of tetra and even rainbow fish that can do quite well for such a thing, not to mention rasboras and even cichlids. My suggestion would be to first decide what fish are going to be kept and then either find one of those species to get started or choose one that will work alongside of the others planned for the tank. To get fish just for the purpose of cycling isn't always a good idea because many places won't allow the return of those fish later when the need for them has passed, especially if they know the fish were intended for use just to cycle the tank. In regards to using fish to cycle a tank causing harm to them... again, it depends on how much of a dangerous level they are exposed to. Properly cycling a tank will bring very slight jumps in readings that don't last long. A fish that has been used to cycle a tank doesn't have to suffer permanent damage or shorter lifespan as an end result. I have used fish to cycle my tanks for 20+ yrs and never run into an instance of shortening lifespan or causing permanent damage to them, but I was also patient in my approach so the cycling was done "easy" and not "hard". There are other ways to start the cycle in an aquarium such as the use of live plants, fish foods, snails, etc. I think how a tank is cycled greatly depends on what is intended to go into it long term and the amount of commitment & patience a person is willing to put into it. This is one of those things that has many right ways and some very specific wrong ways to do it. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Amber.. I would never ever say "the best" about any topic on here... What I would suggest as a well balanced approach to cycling a tank is the following:  Beg, borrow or steal some established media from a tank you trust.. either substrate or filter media.  This will provide the beneficial bacteria needed to assist in the cycle.... Then I would add one or two hardy fish (Any kind of Barb,, i hate em)...to provide the ammonia.  Now you've a cycle started.. Step two?.. Monitor your water chemistry daily to monitor how your cycling is going. (I dont know of a better kit than the API master kit).  It's a tough balancing act but it is possible to see only the most minor fluctuations in Am. Nit. and Nitra. during this process.   > As the ammonia load increases, the bacteria should be able to keep pace.  A week later?.. add a few more of the same specie if you've selected a schooling type fish..  > Bottled bacteria?.. Lotsa debate going on in that regard.  Bacteria cannot exist in a bottled state without being fed.  Ammonia in fact.  A friend of mine owns an upscale, by appt only fish store and will upon request, order fresh live bacteria with overnight delivery when he needs it to set up an instant tank.  He'll not guarantee the viability of the bacteria for over 24 hrs if the client isn't ready for his effort on day of delivery.   > > > ________________________________ > From: Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 1, 2011 8:57 PM > Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Re: What size of Aquarium is Good? > > >   > Just wanted to add one more thing, Dawn covered a lot of good points though. > > When you're first setting up a brand new aquarium you need to be aware > of cycling the tank properly. > If you just start adding fish without knowing anything about the > nitrogen cycle then you're going to VERY soon have BIG problems with > Ammonia poisoning (first) then Nitrite poisoning afterwards. > If you're going to cycle a fish tank with fish in it keep in mind that > this can cause health problems in ALL fish and shorten their lifespan, > if not out-right kill them if they aren't hardy enough to survive the > whole process. > You will want a test kit, preferably the liquid reagent kind. API makes > a good master test kit that you can get from walmart.com and order it > "ship to store" for local pickup, which is free shipping. This option is > available for MOST walmarts (not mine though). > Here is a good website for information on the nitrogen cycle in the > freshwater aquarium (and ponds). > http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html > The best way to cycle a tank is called "fish-less cycling" where you buy > plain (no perfumes or additives) Ammonia and use that daily for about a > month, testing your tank water parameters daily until there are no test > results (0) for Ammonia and Nitrites. Then the tank is safe to add fish. > Otherwise a shorter way is to buy Dr. Tim's One and Only and add that to > your tank just before adding fish, this adds all the nitrifying bacteria > to your water/tank so that you don't have to "grow" them yourself with > the ammonia fish-less cycling, or cycling the tank with cheap fish. > > Amber > > On 11/30/2011 11:21 AM, jasadell wrote: > > > > My 2 cents, and my opinions (take it or leave it). I will assume that > > you are new to keeping aquaria. > > > > Facts: > > First don't mix goldfish with tropical fish. Goldfish are coldwater > > fish. Tropical fish need warm water. > > > > Marine (saltwater) and freshwater don't mix. Pick one or the other. > > > > Opinions: > > I would not recommend keeping Cichlids if this is your first tank. > > There are several things to consider and there is really no one single > > place to get all of the information that you need to prevent you from > > saying "I wish I had known that beforehand". I have kept a community > > tank on and off for 30 years. I just started a Cichlid tank a few > > months ago, and I have already experienced several "I wish I had known > > that beforehand" moments. Cichlids are for seasoned aquaria-keepers. > > > > Same for marine fish. Start with a nice freshwater community tank. > > > > I would just start with a modest 20 gallon tank. That way if you find > > out it's not your thing you won't be out too much. Keeping fish > > requires ongoing maintenance. > > > > Aquariums 101 (others may fill in where I missed): > > - You need a tank with a tank light. > > - You need a heater. Most agree that 78 o is the temp to keep tropical > > fish > > - You need a tank thermometer > > - You need a filter. HOB (Hang on Back) filters are inexpensive and > > easy to maintain > > * You can find a kit to include all of the above. That saves time and > > usually some money. > > - You need an aquarium stand. I don't recommend putting it on furniture. > > - You need substrate. A good starter substrate is gravel. Pick a color > > you like, enough to have about one 1" deep (I am certain there are > > more specific recommendations on the type and quantity). > > - You need an aquarium vacuum (go cheap, just get the hose) > > - You will want decor (plants, castles, bridges, treasure chest, use > > your imagination). Plastic plants are easier to maintain (or not > > maintain) so start there. > > - You will need fish food. Buy small containers rather than big ones > > so you have fresh food. > > > > - Rinse everything thoroughly, including the filter and media and the > > gravel. > > - Add the gravel to the tank and even it out > > - I like to add about 3/4 of the water, then add decor so the water > > doesn't disturb everything. Then fill it the rest of the way with > > water. Don't fill it up all the way before adding decor since decor > > will displace water. > > - Run it empty for several days. > > - Take water samples to fish stores to test (some do that for free). > > Don't add any fish until your parameters test good. Remember: Fish > > waste->Ammonia->Nitrites->Nitrates. Too much of any of those are toxic > > to fish. In addition, you may need to add tap water conditioner. Some > > tap water (especially city water) contains Chorine and Chloramine, > > which are highly toxic to fish. Be patient here. It will be worth it. > > - Add only one to three fish at a time, leave 2-3 weeks between. Test > > your water before you add more fish. > > - Perform partial water changes weekly. Opinions widely vary here. I > > recommend about 25% weekly for a standard community tank of this size. > > > > Here are some easy to care for fish recommendations: > > - Guppies. Seemingly endless choices. Very pretty > > - Mollies. Good way to teach kids about the birds and the bees :) > > - Platys > > - Tetras > > - Hatchetfish > > - Loach > > - Danios > > - Glo-fish > > - Barbs > > - Glass catfish (very cool) > > > > - Ask the pet store which ones prefer to school. For example, Glass > > catfish prefer to school an are much more healthy and comfortable in a > > group of 3 or more. > > - If you pick up bottom feeding catfish, get them last. > > > > - You can expect some fish to die. It's a good idea to buy inexpensive > > ones first. As well, choose a pet store with a warranty. Not sure if I > > should mention specific store names, but some big name pet stores have > > 2-4 week warranties. Don't expect to find experts at those types of > > stores, though. This group is your best resource. > > > > Check them all out daily. If they look or act strange, ping the group > > here. > > > > Enjoy! > > JD > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52683	From: pam andress	Date: 12/1/2011
Subject: I got a deal today!

I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52684	From: Bill	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

Typically you'll see a deposit on the inside of the tank from the salt environment... Vinegar is the best way to eradicate that... along with a ton of elbow grease.  before hand.. ensure the tank is on a firm footing outside.. (deck/garage floor) and fill the big guy.. let it set for a few days... 1. it will loosen somewhat the deposits.. 2. it will check for leaks.  Once cleaned out.. a couple of guppies will be your "canary's in the mine".. Guppy's can take a bit of salt in their environment if you've not cleaned it out 100%.  I snagged 2 92G 1/4 cylinders and a 195G 1/2 cylinder tank.  Cleaned them up and did quite well on the resale.. One now holding discus!.. Bill in Va.    ________________________________ From: pam andress <pamandress23@...> To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 2, 2011 1:47 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] I got a deal today!   I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52685	From: haecklers	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: Baby Pix

One of my smallest bettas is now huge. She stayed smaller than all the others for about 9 months but then kept on growing. She's 3 inches now, with a thick, substantial body and fantastic colors. It *could be* with her that she had some parasite, I had some extra prazi mixed up once and threw it in her tank, just in case. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kuradi8" <kuradi8@...> wrote: > > His fins have grown longer but not much. But his body is still little. All of my other Bettas have shown significant growth in the first few months. PuPu has not. I think he's going to stay little. > ~Kai > > > > > SIMMONDS JOHN wrote: > > > > Hi Kai, > > > > Maybe PuPu is just a late developer, has he grown any since you posted his picture in September? My Goldfish all grow at different rates, a couple of them stayed smaller than the rest for a couple of years but they've all gotten to a similar size now & are still growing slowly. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 30 November 2011 18:05, Kai wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > Little PuPu is doing quite well. > > > > > > Months later, he is still TINY. > > > > > > I think he's a "Little Fish." You know, Dwarfish. :oD > > > > > > Literally, My Little Munchkin! > > > ~Kai > > > > > > WAY BACK in the first few days of September Kai wrote: > > > > > > > > Thanks! I think he's a little cutie too. > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Enid Rodriguez wrote: > > > > > > > > > > very pretty fish! I like the way even his pectorals are wider than > > > normal. > > > > > Enid > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > Kai wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I lost one of my Bettas. :o( Spare Rib had lousy scraggly fins but > > > beautiful lavender color that some call "orchid." > > > > > > > > > > So I went to my local PetsMart and they had a collection of Bettas > > > marked Half Moons. For those of you who don't know what that is, it's a > > > Betta whose tail flares out to 180* or more. > > > > > > > > > > I was SO EXCITED until I put my reading glasses on so I could see > > > them. HUFFFFFFFF! :o/ (Disappointment.) They might as well have been marked > > > "elephant" because they were *NOT* what they claimed to be. There was one > > > and only one Betta that actually was a Half Moon. So I bought him. > > > > > > > > > > Once approved by the moderators, his picture will be #4 at > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AquaticLife/photos/album/1062797703/pic/listMy husband has named him PuPu Platter because all my Bettas have had names > > > from the Chinese take-out menu. It's really hard to tell from the photo but > > > he's TINY! Fully flared, he's only as big as Moo Shu's lower fin -- barely > > > bigger than a Quarter. > > > > > > > > > > Ooooh, and note the ruffles in his tail. He has a bit of Rose Tail in > > > him too. :o) > > > > > > > > > > So long live PuPu! > > > > > ~Kai > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52686	From: haecklers	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

If there are visible salt deposits on the tank you can use a razor scraper to knock them down a lot for less scrubbing, but be aware it will cut right into silicone caulk as well, so be careful near the seams. I had a badly stained tank and I laid it on its side to soak one side at a time with vinegar for hours, made the stains come off pretty easily. Bowfront makes that harder, but I've heard of soaking paper towels in vinegar then sticking them to surfaces. I'd go a couple thick to make sure they don't dry out too quickly. I've actually had good luck using baking soda to scrub mineral deposits off of fish tanks. It does leave its own residue that you have to get off, but it's just lots of rinsing, not scrubbing. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52687	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

I see the others have all offered great suggestions for cleaning the tank so I will skip that part. In regards to the rock, the condition of it will determine its value. If it is bleached and clean then it is worth about 5.99 - 6.99/lb at retail value, if its not bleached or cleaned then I would say about 1/2 of that price (or a bit less). Keep in mind these are retail values which you won't typically get for resale value. Weigh the rock before taking it to him so you know how much is there. If he offers you $2 - $3/lb for it I would say that is a fair price. If you can get more, go for it... but remember that if you ask too much for it you will likely get stuck with it because most people who deal retail can get it cheaper from the wholesalers they work with. Dried "base rock" (which is what its called when its not cured) isn't worth as much as actual live rock because the curing process takes months and can be a hassle if someone is lacking in appropriate space/conditions to do the curing themselves. In regards to the broken center brace... let me ask my husband when he gets home tonight. He works for Aqueon and can tell me if that's a part he can get sent out to you direct from the manufacturer. I believe it is. In order to replace the center brace you will need to remove the entire top frame piece from the tank, as it is all one piece. I would suggest asking for help from someone with aquarium experience if at all possible so as not to break the side seals when breaking through the silicone that holds the top frame in place. It's not an overly difficult thing to do if you know what you're doing. You will, however, need aquarium safe silicone to help anchor the new frame piece in place. I will post again after I've talked to my husband about it tonight. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52688	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

Ok, just talked to my husband, he said the top frame with brace is a part that needs to be ordered through the pet store. He said if an employee tells you they can't get it then to ask for a manager because most of the distributors stock it or can order it easily from the company. It will likely be considered a special order, so you will have to take whatever steps that store has for policies for special orders. Some require that it be paid for, at least in part, up front. The part numbers the store will need would be as follows: Oak = # 91132 Black = # 91038 I wasn't sure what color the trim is on your tank so I had hubby give me numbers for both to save you some time. Best of luck to you!!! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52689	From: pam andress	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

Thanks guys. Now I have to figure out what I am going to do with all of this once live, now not so, rock. I picked that up today. Pam If there are visible salt deposits on the tank you can use a razor scraper to knock them down a lot for less scrubbing, but be aware it will cut right into silicone caulk as well, so be careful near the seams. I had a badly stained tank and I laid it on its side to soak one side at a time with vinegar for hours, made the stains come off pretty easily. Bowfront makes that harder, but I've heard of soaking paper towels in vinegar then sticking them to surfaces. I'd go a couple thick to make sure they don't dry out too quickly. I've actually had good luck using baking soda to scrub mineral deposits off of fish tanks. It does leave its own residue that you have to get off, but it's just lots of rinsing, not scrubbing. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. > Pam [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52690	From: pam andress	Date: 12/2/2011
Subject: Re: I got a deal today!

It is oak and I have gotten two prices so far. Both are basically 60 bucks which I don't have. I am waiting to hear from one other and they may take some BN's from me as part of the payment. I NEED to sell some anyway as I have way too many. Pam Ok, just talked to my husband, he said the top frame with brace is a part that needs to be ordered through the pet store. He said if an employee tells you they can't get it then to ask for a manager because most of the distributors stock it or can order it easily from the company. It will likely be considered a special order, so you will have to take whatever steps that store has for policies for special orders. Some require that it be paid for, at least in part, up front. The part numbers the store will need would be as follows: Oak = # 91132 Black = # 91038 I wasn't sure what color the trim is on your tank so I had hubby give me numbers for both to save you some time. Best of luck to you!!! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, pam andress <pamandress23@...> wrote: > > > I saw a posting for a Aqueon 72 gal bow front aquarium with stand for 15 bucks. I jumped on it with both feet (not literally), and emailed the lady right back. The center brace has been broken, so I am looking to replace that. I have called a few places to see the price they can get it for me for. It was missing the glass top, so I was disappointed about that until she called me this afternoon with the news that she found it. I am also going to get the what was live rock when they had it as a salt tank. There is a man in the next town from me that sells mostly salt water fish and is possibly interested in it. Any ideas as to the amount I should get for now not live rock that ran over 300 bucks when it was? I know it is not worth that amount now, but I do not want him telling me it is only worth a buck either. So now I have a 72 gal bow front with no light and no heater or filter and no idea what I need to do to this tank so if I put fresh water fish into it the old salt will not kill them. Suggestions please on cleaning this. I just can't pick it up and take it to the sink to give it a good rinsing. > Pam > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52691	From: haecklers	Date: 12/4/2011
Subject: Fish with white bulge at vent

I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle tank is gasping at the bottom with a swollen belly and protruding vent. I thought maybe she was giving birth because of the huge belly but then I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem to have something whitish protruding from their vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any thread-like things coming from any of them. I tried looking up parasites for aquarium fish and so far am not hitting many sites that seem helpful. I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? More info: the parameters are good, low nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an unheated tank and last week my daughter left her window open so wind around 40F was blowing on the tank for a few hours but other than that it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for about a year and a half and are very hardy. The tank is heavily planted, with a lot of emergent plants as well. Except for the guppy the fish are acting very healthy and are active and eating well. The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in it, I guess I should remove them first, right? How long/how many water changes before it's safe to put them back in again? BTW, I take back my recommendation on using rosy reds as a pet - they come with too many health risks!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52692	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/4/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent

Use the Levamisole. 5 grams per 100 gallons. Dissolve it in a measured amount of water and treat the whole tank. Get back to me for information. http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/TreatmentProcedure.html Charles H >I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle tank >is gasping at the bottom with a swollen belly >and protruding vent. I thought maybe she was >giving birth because of the huge belly but then >I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem to >have something whitish protruding from their >vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have >some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> >camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any >thread-like things coming from any of them. > >I tried looking up parasites for aquarium fish >and so far am not hitting many sites that seem >helpful. > >I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and >metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? > >More info: the parameters are good, low >nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an >unheated tank and last week my daughter left her >window open so wind around 40F was blowing on >the tank for a few hours but other than that >it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the >rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. >The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for >about a year and a half and are very hardy. The >tank is heavily planted, with a lot of emergent >plants as well. > >Except for the guppy the fish are acting very >healthy and are active and eating well. > >The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in it, >I guess I should remove them first, right? How >long/how many water changes before it's safe to >put them back in again? > >BTW, I take back my recommendation on using rosy >reds as a pet - they come with too many health >risks! > -- http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ItemsForSale.html Information about treating fresh water with Levamisole HCl is found at: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/index.html http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamallanusTreatment/TreatmentProcedure.html }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿> Good Luck and Good Timing.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52693	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent

Before medicating you may want to rethink what tank you're going to do this in. Medications are highly toxic to shrimp and most meds can leave a residue in the tank, which means instead of moving the shrimp out it would be safer to move the fish to quarantine and medicate in quarantine. Also, if there is a turtle in this tank I would not suggest medicating the fish in the same tank as a turtle. That would put the turtle at risk, too. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle tank is gasping at the bottom with a swollen belly and protruding vent. I thought maybe she was giving birth because of the huge belly but then I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem to have something whitish protruding from their vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any thread-like things coming from any of them. > > I tried looking up parasites for aquarium fish and so far am not hitting many sites that seem helpful. > > I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? > > More info: the parameters are good, low nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an unheated tank and last week my daughter left her window open so wind around 40F was blowing on the tank for a few hours but other than that it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for about a year and a half and are very hardy. The tank is heavily planted, with a lot of emergent plants as well. > > Except for the guppy the fish are acting very healthy and are active and eating well. > > The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in it, I guess I should remove them first, right? How long/how many water changes before it's safe to put them back in again? > > BTW, I take back my recommendation on using rosy reds as a pet - they come with too many health risks! >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52694	From: haecklers	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent

But if it's a planted tank with substrate, etc. and the fish have parasites with a multiple host lifecycle, then wouldn't I need to treat the whole tank to make sure they don't just get reinfected when I put them back in the tank? I can put the shrimp in their own tank indefinitely, that's not a problem, but I don't want to have a recurring parasite problem, that may get moved to my other tanks if I move plants or animals around. Last time my fish got camallanus it got in 3 or 4 of my tanks before I realized it! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Before medicating you may want to rethink what tank you're going to do this in. Medications are highly toxic to shrimp and most meds can leave a residue in the tank, which means instead of moving the shrimp out it would be safer to move the fish to quarantine and medicate in quarantine. > Also, if there is a turtle in this tank I would not suggest medicating the fish in the same tank as a turtle. That would put the turtle at risk, too. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle tank is gasping at the bottom with a swollen belly and protruding vent. I thought maybe she was giving birth because of the huge belly but then I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem to have something whitish protruding from their vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any thread-like things coming from any of them. > > > > I tried looking up parasites for aquarium fish and so far am not hitting many sites that seem helpful. > > > > I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? > > > > More info: the parameters are good, low nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an unheated tank and last week my daughter left her window open so wind around 40F was blowing on the tank for a few hours but other than that it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for about a year and a half and are very hardy. The tank is heavily planted, with a lot of emergent plants as well. > > > > Except for the guppy the fish are acting very healthy and are active and eating well. > > > > The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in it, I guess I should remove them first, right? How long/how many water changes before it's safe to put them back in again? > > > > BTW, I take back my recommendation on using rosy reds as a pet - they come with too many health risks! > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52695	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent

>But if it's a planted tank with substrate, etc. >and the fish have parasites with a multiple host >lifecycle, then wouldn't I need to treat the >whole tank to make sure they don't just get >reinfected when I put them back in the tank? I >can put the shrimp in their own tank >indefinitely, that's not a problem, but I don't >want to have a recurring parasite problem, that >may get moved to my other tanks if I move plants >or animals around. Last time my fish got >camallanus it got in 3 or 4 of my tanks before I >realized it! If it is Camallanus Nematode, EVERYTHING Wet needs to be treated! Charles H > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, >"dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> >wrote: >> >> Before medicating you may want to rethink what >>tank you're going to do this in. Medications >>are highly toxic to shrimp and most meds can >>leave a residue in the tank, which means >>instead of moving the shrimp out it would be >>safer to move the fish to quarantine and >>medicate in quarantine. >> Also, if there is a turtle in this tank I >>would not suggest medicating the fish in the >>same tank as a turtle. That would put the >>turtle at risk, too. >> >> Dawn >> >> >> --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: >> > >> > I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle >>tank is gasping at the bottom with a swollen >>belly and protruding vent. I thought maybe she >>was giving birth because of the huge belly but >>then I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem >>to have something whitish protruding from their >>vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have >>some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> >>camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any >>thread-like things coming from any of them. >> > >> > I tried looking up parasites for aquarium >>fish and so far am not hitting many sites that >>seem helpful. >> > >> > I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and >>metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? >> > >> > More info: the parameters are good, low >>nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an >>unheated tank and last week my daughter left >>her window open so wind around 40F was blowing >>on the tank for a few hours but other than that >>it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the >>rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. >>The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for >>about a year and a half and are very hardy. >>The tank is heavily planted, with a lot of >>emergent plants as well. >> > >> > Except for the guppy the fish are acting >>very healthy and are active and eating well. >> > >> > The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in >>it, I guess I should remove them first, right? >>How long/how many water changes before it's >>safe to put them back in again? >> > >> > BTW, I take back my recommendation on using >>rosy reds as a pet - they come with too many >>health risks! >> > >> > > > > >------------------------------------ > >AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s > > >Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. >·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> >PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all >TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if >CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message >MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject >(was re: old subject)" <- ><º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. >We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. > >If you do not want all of the groups emails, >instead of unsubscribing, you can change your >delivery option by clicking on "Edit My >Membership" on the home page. > >Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to >receive the digest, which includes up to 25 >posts at a time in a single email > >Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for >the No E-Mail option where you will still be >able to read messages on the group and post >replies. > >Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to >receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links > > > -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52696	From: jshphoto@yahoo.com	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Fish with white bulge at vent

Usually I lurk and learn, but having several red earred sliders, you should be able to treat the fish without affecting the turtles much. If you are worried, isolate them in a plastic tote for a few days. Chemicals in the water doesn't affect them, either, in case you wonder. Scott (Deer Park, TX) Sent on the Sprint� Now Network from my BlackBerry� -----Original Message----- From: "haecklers" <haecklers@...> Sender: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:30:49 To: <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Fish with white bulge at vent But if it's a planted tank with substrate, etc. and the fish have parasites with a multiple host lifecycle, then wouldn't I need to treat the whole tank to make sure they don't just get reinfected when I put them back in the tank? I can put the shrimp in their own tank indefinitely, that's not a problem, but I don't want to have a recurring parasite problem, that may get moved to my other tanks if I move plants or animals around. Last time my fish got camallanus it got in 3 or 4 of my tanks before I realized it! --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Before medicating you may want to rethink what tank you're going to do this in. Medications are highly toxic to shrimp and most meds can leave a residue in the tank, which means instead of moving the shrimp out it would be safer to move the fish to quarantine and medicate in quarantine. > Also, if there is a turtle in this tank I would not suggest medicating the fish in the same tank as a turtle. That would put the turtle at risk, too. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I noticed one of the guppies in my turtle tank is gasping at the bottom with a swollen belly and protruding vent. I thought maybe she was giving birth because of the huge belly but then I noticed a lot of the rosy reds also seem to have something whitish protruding from their vents. Now I'm a little worried they may have some sort of parasitic disease. Or <<gasp!>> camallanus. But so far I haven't seen any thread-like things coming from any of them. > > > > I tried looking up parasites for aquarium fish and so far am not hitting many sites that seem helpful. > > > > I've got levamisole, praziquantel, and metrodiazole on hand, which should I try? > > > > More info: the parameters are good, low nitrates, no ammonia and no nitrites. It's an unheated tank and last week my daughter left her window open so wind around 40F was blowing on the tank for a few hours but other than that it's between 65 and 68, not a problem for the rosy reds, guppies or shrimp that I can tell. The guppies are feeder guppies I've had for about a year and a half and are very hardy. The tank is heavily planted, with a lot of emergent plants as well. > > > > Except for the guppy the fish are acting very healthy and are active and eating well. > > > > The tank also has some red cherry shrimps in it, I guess I should remove them first, right? How long/how many water changes before it's safe to put them back in again? > > > > BTW, I take back my recommendation on using rosy reds as a pet - they come with too many health risks! > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52697	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Best types of cichlids for new tank

I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52698	From: Deenerz@aol.com	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Kwondrash. what size is the tank? What are your current water conditions? Mike G -----Original Message----- From: kwondrash1@... To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:43 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52699	From: Bill	Date: 12/5/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Kribensis or apistogamma's... Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: "Deenerz@..." <Deenerz@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank   Kwondrash. what size is the tank? What are your current water conditions? Mike G -----Original Message----- From: kwondrash1@... To: AquaticLife <AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Dec 5, 2011 10:43 am Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 td{color: black;} #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; font-family: Arial; margin: 10px 0; padding: 0 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp hr { border: 1px solid #d8d8d8; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp #hd { color: #628c2a; font-size: 85%; font-weight: 700; line-height: 122%; margin: 10px 0; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp #ads { margin-bottom: 10px; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp .ad { padding: 0 0; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp .ad p { margin: 0; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-mkp .ad a { color: #0000ff; text-decoration: none; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc { font-family: Arial; } #AOLMsgPart_1_09e88a02-ac8b-4afa-a463-7f103f049fe1 #ygrp-sponsor #ygrp-lc #hd { margin: 10px 0px; 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Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52700	From: john Lewis	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Hello:    I think Kribensis would be a nice one to set up.  I've been thinking about setting some of them up as well.  Buffalo Head Cichlids (Streatocranus casuarius)are also pretty neat.  They are also known as Lion-heads or Block-Heads.    Have a Great Day!!!    Spawn ________________________________ From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:31 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank   I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52701	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids

Sorry! The tank is just a 10 gallon. Depending on which species I go with, I can have it as a hard water, higher PH using my tap water, or work on keeping it softer with RO water I currently use in my 30 gallon freshwater. That tank has a PH of about 7.4. I won't be getting the fish for awhile, as I have to set up rockwork and allow it to cycle first, but I'm researching fish to possibly get when it is done. I'd like to use this small tank just as a species tank and see if I can get anything to breed in it...but mostly just to keep healthy!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52702	From: Bill	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids

Bolivian Rams or German blues.. Kribs or apisto's.. All soft water, all lower ph.. all pretty docile.  All incredibly attractive and kinda on the small size as far as cichlids.. Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:59 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: new tank for cichlids   Sorry! The tank is just a 10 gallon. Depending on which species I go with, I can have it as a hard water, higher PH using my tap water, or work on keeping it softer with RO water I currently use in my 30 gallon freshwater. That tank has a PH of about 7.4. I won't be getting the fish for awhile, as I have to set up rockwork and allow it to cycle first, but I'm researching fish to possibly get when it is done. I'd like to use this small tank just as a species tank and see if I can get anything to breed in it...but mostly just to keep healthy! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52703	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Kribs in a 10 gallon? Adult kribensis average 4 - 5 inches long as adults... way too much fish for a 10 gallon tank. A better, safer option would be a few of the many species of shell dwellers (African cichlids) who stay small and can be so much fun to watch. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >      Hello: >    I think Kribensis would be a nice one to set up.  I've been thinking about setting some of them up as well.  Buffalo Head Cichlids (Streatocranus casuarius)are also pretty neat.  They are also known as Lion-heads or Block-Heads. > >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank > > >   > I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. > I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... > Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52704	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another has a sore on his side. However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. Any suggestions? Causes? Thanks Gail SLC, UT

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52705	From: Bill	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Dawn.. the females grow, in optimum conditions, to a length of 3", males can reach almost 5 inches.  And it will take well over a year to reach their maximum length.  So I think one male and two females in a 10, well planted, well filtered would work.  Lovely fish and very docile.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank   Kribs in a 10 gallon? Adult kribensis average 4 - 5 inches long as adults... way too much fish for a 10 gallon tank. A better, safer option would be a few of the many species of shell dwellers (African cichlids) who stay small and can be so much fun to watch. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >      Hello: >    I think Kribensis would be a nice one to set up.  I've been thinking about setting some of them up as well.  Buffalo Head Cichlids (Streatocranus casuarius)are also pretty neat.  They are also known as Lion-heads or Block-Heads. > >    Have a Great Day!!! >    Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank > > >   > I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. > I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... > Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52706	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/6/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

I was thinking brevis or multifasciatus would be about the only African Rift Lake cichlids for a 10G. Some of the other shellies would be cramped in a 10G. But they do not meet the colorful criteria. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 2:29 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank Kribs in a 10 gallon? Adult kribensis average 4 - 5 inches long as adults... way too much fish for a 10 gallon tank. A better, safer option would be a few of the many species of shell dwellers (African cichlids) who stay small and can be so much fun to watch. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , john Lewis <creatureproductions@...> wrote: > >     Hello: >   I think Kribensis would be a nice one to set up. I've been thinking about setting some of them up as well. Buffalo Head Cichlids (Streatocranus casuarius)are also pretty neat. They are also known as Lion-heads or Block-Heads. > >   Have a Great Day!!! >   Spawn > > > > ________________________________ > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:31 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank > > >  > I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. > I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... > Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52707	From: Ray	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank

Bill, I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with Dawn on this. Three adult Kribensis would be too larage of a bioload for a 10 gallon tank. These are not slim fish, such as what Pencilfish or some of the Rasboras would be considered as, and as a result the too-often-used marginally correct (up to 3") 1" of fish per gallon would not apply to these fish as they have a deep girth -- even though they don't have a particularly deep body. Were talking about 11" of fish (one male @ 5" and two females @ 3" each) and have not even considered their girth yet. Besides, why would you want to have two females (unless the plan is to bring one back to the store after two set up housekeeping)? Without any such plan, and with the good potential for the eventuality of two of these fish to breed, the odd one out will be dead meat in short time if it isn't removed. Even aside from these two above issues, as Kribensis form only loose pair bonds, the male can become very aggressive towards the female before breeding . . . and the female can be exceptionally aggressive towards the male after breeding. While all Kribs may not display such behavior, the possibilty remains that this species can show a good deal of aggression and for this reason would do best in a larger tank instead of being so confined. Apisto's too, form loose pair bonds at best, and even though they're small, they can behave quite aggressively towards one another when not given sufficient room. The females can be absolute terrors when tending their eggs, as they do so without the male's protectiveness and do not want him near the spawning site after breeding. The Buffalo Heads (two) that John mentioned would fit in, although they're not particularly colorful. They are interesting though. Bolivian Rams can reach 5" and while they're not considered aggressive, they're considered to be more aggressive than their cousins, the smaller Venezuela ("German") Rams. A very attractive, yet overlooked candidate as a Cichlid for a 10 gallon tank is the Flag Cichlid (Laetacara curviceps) which gets to about 3", is not aggressive, is fairly attractive and interesting. A pair of these would be my choice for the 10 gallon tank. The Keyhole Cichlid (Cheithracara maronii) is exceptionally peaceful also, but gets to 5". Likewise, the Rainbow Cichlid (Archocentrus multispinosus [Herotilapia multispinosa] get along quite well together -- much like Convicts in their mannerisms -- but again can reach 5", barely small enough for a 10 gallon tank, and then that's "squeezing" them in, when we all need to consider giving our fish adequate swimming space. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Dawn.. the females grow, in optimum conditions, to a length of 3", males can reach almost 5 inches.  And it will take well over a year to reach their maximum length.  So I think one male and two females in a 10, well planted, well filtered would work.  Lovely fish and very docile.  Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 2:28 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Best types of cichlids for new tank > > >   > Kribs in a 10 gallon? Adult kribensis average 4 - 5 inches long as adults... way too much fish for a 10 gallon tank. > > A better, safer option would be a few of the many species of shell dwellers (African cichlids) who stay small and can be so much fun to watch. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, john Lewis <creatureproductions@> wrote: > > > >      Hello: > >    I think Kribensis would be a nice one to set up.  I've been thinking about setting some of them up as well.  Buffalo Head Cichlids (Streatocranus casuarius)are also pretty neat.  They are also known as Lion-heads or Block-Heads. > > > >    Have a Great Day!!! > >    Spawn > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 6:31 PM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Best types of cichlids for new tank > > > > > >   > > I am considering setting up a spare tank as a cichlid tank. I've wanted to try those, but can't bring myself to tear down my nice planted community tank that has been doing so well for me. > > I have a 10 gallon, and was wondering what you folks might recommend as a colorful smaller size cichlid to try. I'd most likely only being looking at getting a pair of something since the tank is so small...was thinking of something a little different than convicts... > > Any helpful suggestions would be good. I won't be getting them for awhile yet, until my tank is set up and cycled, but I'd like to study up on a few species first. Thanks much!! > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52708	From: amphibian_ca	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids

I would not subject kribs or Bolivian Ram to anything under a 20g long (30 inch length). The common ram Mikrogeophagus ramarezi needs at least a 15g or 20g (both being 24 inches length) for a pair. Apistogramma depends upon the species but a pair in anything under a 24-inch tzank is not responsible. A good adage I read a while back is, never buy a fish if you do not now have the proper tank space to house it/them fully mature. A 10g is insufficient space for any of the mentioned chichlids except as fry. Fish grow continually, and without adequate space around them (physical space and related water conditions) they will not develop properly. And another issue with any cichlid is their natural territoriality. Even a pair requires sufficient space for the female to be able, when necessary, to get out of sight of the male, and sometimes vice versa when the female is tending eggs/fry. This is going to be difficult enough in the minimums I have suggested, but with proper aquascaping it is at least possible. Byron. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > Bolivian Rams or German blues.. Kribs or apisto's.. All soft water, all lower ph.. all pretty docile.  All incredibly attractive and kinda on the small size as far as cichlids.. Bill in Va.  > > > ________________________________ > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:59 AM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: new tank for cichlids > > >   > Sorry! The tank is just a 10 gallon. Depending on which species I go with, I can have it as a hard water, higher PH using my tap water, or work on keeping it softer with RO water I currently use in my 30 gallon freshwater. That tank has a PH of about 7.4. > I won't be getting the fish for awhile, as I have to set up rockwork and allow it to cycle first, but I'm researching fish to possibly get when it is done. I'd like to use this small tank just as a species tank and see if I can get anything to breed in it...but mostly just to keep healthy! > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52709	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

Hi Gail, Perhaps you are seeing the results of aggression from one [or more] of the fish with no injuries? just a thought. How long has your tank been up & running & have you added any of these fish recently? John*<o)))< * On 6 December 2011 20:12, gailsugarpants <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > ** > > > I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of > tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another > has a sore on his side. > However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. > I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I > don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. > Any suggestions? Causes? > Thanks > Gail > SLC, UT > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52710	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids

Hi Byron, What an excellent quote-maybe it should be on the homepage in large red letters? Better still should be displayed over the counter of every fish store world wide!! John*<o)))< * On 7 December 2011 16:47, amphibian_ca <bhosking@...> wrote: > ** > > > ..............never buy a fish if you do not now have the proper tank > space to house it/them fully mature.................. > > Byron. > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@...> wrote: > > > > Bolivian Rams or German blues.. Kribs or apisto's.. All soft water, all > lower ph.. all pretty docile. � All incredibly attractive and kinda on the > small size as far as cichlids.. Bill in Va.� > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@...> > > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:59 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: new tank for cichlids > > > > > > � > > Sorry! The tank is just a 10 gallon. Depending on which species I go > with, I can have it as a hard water, higher PH using my tap water, or work > on keeping it softer with RO water I currently use in my 30 gallon > freshwater. That tank has a PH of about 7.4. > > I won't be getting the fish for awhile, as I have to set up rockwork and > allow it to cycle first, but I'm researching fish to possibly get when it > is done. I'd like to use this small tank just as a species tank and see if > I can get anything to breed in it...but mostly just to keep healthy! > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52711	From: kwondrash	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: New tank, cichlids

Thanks for the input everyone! I'm going to start looking into those species you have mentioned. I will also need to see if any of my LFS have them for sale. I have seen the Rams, but have heard they are really particular about water conditions. I'm thinking I'd like to look for those Apistogammas (sp?) and check them out more. If you have more suggestions or hints about those types of fish, I love reading on here! Thanks all!

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52712	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

Can you post any clear photos of the sick fish? Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another has a sore on his side. > However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. > I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. > Any suggestions? Causes? > Thanks > Gail > SLC, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52713	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: new tank for cichlids

Thank you for posting this Byron, very well said. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "amphibian_ca" <bhosking@...> wrote: > > I would not subject kribs or Bolivian Ram to anything under a 20g long (30 inch length). The common ram Mikrogeophagus ramarezi needs at least a 15g or 20g (both being 24 inches length) for a pair. Apistogramma depends upon the species but a pair in anything under a 24-inch tzank is not responsible. > > A good adage I read a while back is, never buy a fish if you do not now have the proper tank space to house it/them fully mature. A 10g is insufficient space for any of the mentioned chichlids except as fry. Fish grow continually, and without adequate space around them (physical space and related water conditions) they will not develop properly. > > And another issue with any cichlid is their natural territoriality. Even a pair requires sufficient space for the female to be able, when necessary, to get out of sight of the male, and sometimes vice versa when the female is tending eggs/fry. This is going to be difficult enough in the minimums I have suggested, but with proper aquascaping it is at least possible. > > Byron. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Bill <williemcd@> wrote: > > > > Bolivian Rams or German blues.. Kribs or apisto's.. All soft water, all lower ph.. all pretty docile.  All incredibly attractive and kinda on the small size as far as cichlids.. Bill in Va.  > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: kwondrash <kwondrash1@> > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 11:59 AM > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: new tank for cichlids > > > > > >   > > Sorry! The tank is just a 10 gallon. Depending on which species I go with, I can have it as a hard water, higher PH using my tap water, or work on keeping it softer with RO water I currently use in my 30 gallon freshwater. That tank has a PH of about 7.4. > > I won't be getting the fish for awhile, as I have to set up rockwork and allow it to cycle first, but I'm researching fish to possibly get when it is done. I'd like to use this small tank just as a species tank and see if I can get anything to breed in it...but mostly just to keep healthy! > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52714	From: mrbushy2003	Date: 12/7/2011
Subject: Re: Yo Dawn!/Trimming Plant Roots

Hi Everyone, Just an update on my listless Vallis plant problem-after several weeks they have indeed started to look better & this after I trimmed a little off each root as Dawn suggested-more in desperation than anything else because these plants once grew to over 3 feet long & were lush & thick. I also re-potted some to a larger container giving them more room to expand. Just waiting for my pictures to get approved by the Moderators & then they will be found in the 'John's Plants' photo album. As time allows I will add pictures to this showing their development. John<o)))< [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52715	From: gail.johnson2@gmail.com	Date: 12/8/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

It doesn't look like agression to me. One had a big sore and was swimming oddly, so I humanely euthanized the poor little guy :( the other one has redness near his fins and by his gill. I have a pic that I can post later. Like I said no other fish are displaying any signs of sickness Sent from my iPhone

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52716	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/8/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

I did post a pic - pending moderator approval. Look for SICK TIGERBARB. He has red near his fins and by his gills. He is also my oldest tigerbarb in my school of 5. Number six was put to rest, bless his lil fishy soul :( he was the one with the big open sore on his side :( --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Can you post any clear photos of the sick fish? > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@> wrote: > > > > I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another has a sore on his side. > > However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. > > I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. > > Any suggestions? Causes? > > Thanks > > Gail > > SLC, UT > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52717	From: Ray	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

Gail, Checked out your pic of your SICK TIGERBARBS (as titled). This rather large red sore on the fish's body does not appear to be the manifestation of any fish parasite, but is indicative to a bacterial pathogen. Without taking a smear of the wound and examining it under a microscope it's next to impossible to determine just which pathogen is responsible, although there are a number of different ones, but this one seems to be more specific to Barbs (and possibly to a few other Families such as Tetras, which you don't mention as having present). As it is affecting only your Barbs, I would isolate these fish and treat them with a quality broad-spectrum/gram-positive antibiotic. I've seen similar bacteria infections in the past -- although it's far from certain that it was the same pathogen you're dealing with -- but with those issues, it was found that Furan II was quite effective in erradicating it. You may want to consider trying this med as it would be the type that would address just such an issue. There are several other antibiotics that should work also, but not all of them would remain viable at a pH up to 8.0, and not knowing your pH I couldn't advise them. Here again is a typical case of the need to state your water parameters when seeking advice on an illness. Please keep us informed on this. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > I did post a pic - pending moderator approval. Look for SICK TIGERBARB. He has red near his fins and by his gills. He is also my oldest tigerbarb in my school of 5. Number six was put to rest, bless his lil fishy soul :( he was the one with the big open sore on his side :( > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Can you post any clear photos of the sick fish? > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@> wrote: > > > > > > I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another has a sore on his side. > > > However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. > > > I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. > > > Any suggestions? Causes? > > > Thanks > > > Gail > > > SLC, UT > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52718	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Re: Only tiger barbs getting Ill

I will reiterate what Ray has said about needing to know your water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH. These things can not only affect the health of the fish but also the medication/treatment. Its never wise to medicate without first checking water parameters. I also agree that the sick fish should be treated in a quarantine tank. If the water parameters are safe in the main tank, that water, at least in part, should be used to fill a quarantine tank, which will ease any cycling that may happen and cause less stress to the fish by changing its conditions too much. As for choice of meds... I wouldn't suggest anything without knowing those parameters, especially when dealing with antibiotics. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, gail.johnson2@... wrote: > > It doesn't look like agression to me. One had a big sore and was swimming oddly, so I humanely euthanized the poor little guy :( the other one has redness near his fins and by his gill. I have a pic that I can post later. > Like I said no other fish are displaying any signs of sickness > > Sent from my iPhone >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52719	From: Paul	Date: 12/9/2011
Subject: Sock Filter - Has anybody used these?

I'm designing a filter for my 45 flat tank grow out tank. I think I'm going to use a 20 long with several filter compartments. In the past I used lots of filter floss as a prefilter, but I'm considering using 4" diameter sock filters. Has anybody used these? What are the benefits and drawbacks? Paul

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52720	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: Re: Sock Filter - Has anybody used these?

Hi Paul, I use a very similar sized wet/dry sump filter to the one you are planning although a little higher & I use 2 x 4" diameter 14" felt pre-filter socks. No problems to report whatsoever so far & I have been running this system for over 2 years. You are going to need spares because they can fill up & clog quickly depending on how many fish you have. I clean them in the washing machine on a boil wash with no detergent, just couple of dessert spoons of bicarbonate of soda. They do loose their ability to grab everything after some time & you get more small residue coming through & settling on the bottom of your sock compartment so I am just buying some replacements for mine now but that is not bad for over 2 years. I always shop around & get mine from the US because even with international shipping they come almost half the price that I would have to pay here in rip-off Britain! John*<o)))<* On 10 December 2011 06:59, Paul <Plwg000@...> wrote: > ** > > > I'm designing a filter for my 45 flat tank grow out tank. I think I'm > going to use a 20 long with several filter compartments. In the past I used > lots of filter floss as a prefilter, but I'm considering using 4" diameter > sock filters. Has anybody used these? What are the benefits and drawbacks? > > Paul > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52721	From: Jessica Sheldon	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: help

I can't stop the forum emails from flooding my inbox. I'd like to unsubscribe from emails please.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52722	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/10/2011
Subject: Re: help

Click "Unsubscribe" at the bottom right of the emails. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jessica Sheldon Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:02 PM To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] help I can't stop the forum emails from flooding my inbox. I'd like to unsubscribe from emails please. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52723	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help

Hi Jessica, I've changed your settings so that you no longer receive the Yahoogroup emails from this List, but should still receive any generated messages on your Group Homepage -- if this is what you're asking. If you want to reply to any messages on the Homepage, you can still reply to them by opening them and inserting your message. I could also put you on Daily Digest instead, if you think that would help. If you want to be removed from this Group entirely, just do as Donna suggests to "Unsubscribe" completely. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Sheldon <jessicasheldon@...> wrote: > > I can't stop the forum emails from flooding my inbox. I'd like to unsubscribe from emails please. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52724	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help

Donna, I'm not completely sure that Jessica wants to be removed from this List altogether, or if she just doesn't want to receive the Yahoogroup emails from this list (but may still wish to be a member?). As such, I've told her that I've changed her settings so that she no longer receives these emails, as per her request. Clicking "Unsubscribe" will of course remove her from this list entirely, but it's not completely clear that this is what she wants; but thanks for your directions if this is her preference. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Click "Unsubscribe" at the bottom right of the emails. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Jessica Sheldon > Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 8:02 PM > To: aquaticlife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] help > > > > > > I can't stop the forum emails from flooding my inbox. I'd like to > unsubscribe from emails please. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52725	From: Ray	Date: 12/11/2011
Subject: Re: help

Jessica, Please refer to messages #52723 and 52724 on the Homepage of this List, to see additional replies to your post here. You will no longer be receiving emails from this List. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Jessica Sheldon <jessicasheldon@...> wrote: > > I can't stop the forum emails from flooding my inbox. I'd like to unsubscribe from emails please. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52726	From: haecklers	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: I need help too.

My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew about it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air is really dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding dry or open up the ceiling to air that out? UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of styrofoam under the tanks!!! So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting them to slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only move empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of water on a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to trust it now.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52727	From: Bill	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.

That sheet of foam would just distribute the water to somewhere else.  For the carpet?.. I'd beg or borrow a good size wet/dry shop vac.  Get as much water out of the carpet as possible.  Then plug in a fan and keep the airflow directed at the wet-spot.  Bill in Va.  ________________________________ From: haecklers <haecklers@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:35 AM Subject: [AquaticLife] I need help too.   My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew about it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air is really dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding dry or open up the ceiling to air that out? UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of styrofoam under the tanks!!! So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting them to slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only move empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of water on a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to trust it now. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52728	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/12/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.

Hi, Whereabouts did the 30 gallon spring a leak? I think I would do the same as you & get rid-you never know. Sorry to hear you are having problems-what sizes are the 2 tanks that you are planning on moving? If htey are reasonably small then lowering to a few inches & moving them is ok as long as they are either on a sturdy board or have a rigid frame underneath. If so then you can carry them a few feet making sure both people work gently in unison & keep the remaining water both level & free of waves. Never move a glass tank with any water in it thatis not on a solid base because you will ruin the silicone seals. I would certainly advise against putting them on surfaces that your kids jump on-the vibration will severely stress the fish. If possible a tank should be located away from the main traffic area of the house & also away from any sunlight or heaters. John*<o)))< * On 12 December 2011 13:35, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > ** > > > My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my > living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. > > About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew about > it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. > > What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood > rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air is really > dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding dry or > open up the ceiling to air that out? > > UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of > styrofoam under the tanks!!! > > So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was > thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting them to > slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only move > empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of water on > a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? > > Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to > trust it now. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52729	From: haecklers	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.

I can't find where it leaked from (haven't looked really hard) but it seems to be one whole side along the bottom. I think I'll give the tank to my daughter for her dubia roaches. The tanks are 55 g and 40g that I was thinking of trying to get some styrofoam under, to distribute the weight better and act as shock absorbers. But if you all think it's riskier to try moving them with some water and the substrate (almost 2" - planted tanks) then maybe I should just leave them alone and hope for no more leaks. They are a rare occurrence, right?? --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, SIMMONDS JOHN <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > Whereabouts did the 30 gallon spring a leak? I think I would do the same > as you & get rid-you never know. > > Sorry to hear you are having problems-what sizes are the 2 tanks that you > are planning on moving? If htey are reasonably small then lowering to a few > inches & moving them is ok as long as they are either on a sturdy board or > have a rigid frame underneath. If so then you can carry them a few feet > making sure both people work gently in unison & keep the remaining water > both level & free of waves. Never move a glass tank with any water in it > thatis not on a solid base because you will ruin the silicone seals. > > I would certainly advise against putting them on surfaces that your kids > jump on-the vibration will severely stress the fish. If possible a tank > should be located away from the main traffic area of the house & also away > from any sunlight or heaters. > > John*<o)))< > > * > On 12 December 2011 13:35, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my > > living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. > > > > About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew about > > it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. > > > > What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood > > rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air is really > > dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding dry or > > open up the ceiling to air that out? > > > > UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of > > styrofoam under the tanks!!! > > > > So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was > > thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting them to > > slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only move > > empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of water on > > a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? > > > > Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to > > trust it now. > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52730	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.

I've had one of my tanks for over 10 years (55 gallon), I've not re-done the silicone or anything, it's been moved from home to home at least 3 times in the last 10 years, torn down and emptied, then started back up after being in storage for about a year or so. Tank has never had any problems, but it is due to have the silicone fixed on it soon. I just haven't gotten the ambition to tear it down and move all the plants/fish to another tank. I'm actually considering purchasing a whole new 55 gallon setup from Walmart instead, LOL. So yes, leaks are typically a rare occurrence, but it's all a matter of luck IMO. Amber On 12/13/2011 5:27 AM, haecklers wrote: > > I can't find where it leaked from (haven't looked really hard) but it > seems to be one whole side along the bottom. I think I'll give the > tank to my daughter for her dubia roaches. > > The tanks are 55 g and 40g that I was thinking of trying to get some > styrofoam under, to distribute the weight better and act as shock > absorbers. But if you all think it's riskier to try moving them with > some water and the substrate (almost 2" - planted tanks) then maybe I > should just leave them alone and hope for no more leaks. They are a > rare occurrence, right?? > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > Whereabouts did the 30 gallon spring a leak? I think I would do the same > > as you & get rid-you never know. > > > > Sorry to hear you are having problems-what sizes are the 2 tanks > that you > > are planning on moving? If htey are reasonably small then lowering > to a few > > inches & moving them is ok as long as they are either on a sturdy > board or > > have a rigid frame underneath. If so then you can carry them a few feet > > making sure both people work gently in unison & keep the remaining water > > both level & free of waves. Never move a glass tank with any water in it > > thatis not on a solid base because you will ruin the silicone seals. > > > > I would certainly advise against putting them on surfaces that your kids > > jump on-the vibration will severely stress the fish. If possible a tank > > should be located away from the main traffic area of the house & > also away > > from any sunlight or heaters. > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > * > > On 12 December 2011 13:35, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my > > > living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. > > > > > > About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew > about > > > it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. > > > > > > What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood > > > rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air > is really > > > dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding > dry or > > > open up the ceiling to air that out? > > > > > > UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of > > > styrofoam under the tanks!!! > > > > > > So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was > > > thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting > them to > > > slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only move > > > empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of > water on > > > a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? > > > > > > Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to > > > trust it now. > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52731	From: SIMMONDS JOHN	Date: 12/13/2011
Subject: Re: I need help too.

I understand that silicone tank seals have a working life of around 20 years & also that they loose their flexibility & become brittle if you dry the tank out & store it. However I have a small 15 gallon tank that is currently in use as a temporary home for a couple of Plecos & that has been in & out of storage for a number of years. I would add that when I move it no matter how carefully, it does make a scary creaking so I took the precaution of putting 2 bands of clear tape around it several times just to be on the safe side. I would guess that every time you move a glass tank you are loosening the silicone in some small way. I am lucky to have a tank made of acrylic integral construction with a lifetime guarantee. It is chemically bonded at the corners so that the plastic polymers become one & once made up it is, in effect, all one piece so may be worth thinking about that if you are considering getting another 55 gallon? I had to have mine custom built as we don't have many off-the-shelf options in the UK because fish keeping is not taken too seriously over here but I believe you have a lot more choice in the States & because of that yours are substantially cheaper than ours. Other bonuses of acrylic tanks are the weight-a glass tank would weigh approximately twice what a similar sized acrylic one would weigh & then you would be able to move them more easily because there is no joints to stress & it doesn't stop there. Acrylic is many times stronger than glass so you can have a substantially thinner tank to support the same volume of water that you would have in a thicker glass tank & so there are less refractive problems when viewing your fish. If you need to add any plumbing down the line or upgrade a filter system with more hoses, pipes, bulkheads etc they can simply be drilled. The only down side apart from the cost [that I am aware of] is that you have to take extra care cleaning them because they will scratch real easy. I use square BiOrb felt pads inside the edges of my algae magnet to clean the inside & wipe the outside with a soft duster....just an idea. John*<o)))< * On 13 December 2011 22:02, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > ** > > > I've had one of my tanks for over 10 years (55 gallon), I've not re-done > the silicone or anything, it's been moved from home to home at least 3 > times in the last 10 years, torn down and emptied, then started back up > after being in storage for about a year or so. Tank has never had any > problems, but it is due to have the silicone fixed on it soon. I just > haven't gotten the ambition to tear it down and move all the plants/fish > to another tank. I'm actually considering purchasing a whole new 55 > gallon setup from Walmart instead, LOL. > So yes, leaks are typically a rare occurrence, but it's all a matter of > luck IMO. > > Amber > > > On 12/13/2011 5:27 AM, haecklers wrote: > > > > I can't find where it leaked from (haven't looked really hard) but it > > seems to be one whole side along the bottom. I think I'll give the > > tank to my daughter for her dubia roaches. > > > > The tanks are 55 g and 40g that I was thinking of trying to get some > > styrofoam under, to distribute the weight better and act as shock > > absorbers. But if you all think it's riskier to try moving them with > > some water and the substrate (almost 2" - planted tanks) then maybe I > > should just leave them alone and hope for no more leaks. They are a > > rare occurrence, right?? > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com>, SIMMONDS JOHN > > <simmonds.john@...> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > Whereabouts did the 30 gallon spring a leak? I think I would do the > same > > > as you & get rid-you never know. > > > > > > Sorry to hear you are having problems-what sizes are the 2 tanks > > that you > > > are planning on moving? If htey are reasonably small then lowering > > to a few > > > inches & moving them is ok as long as they are either on a sturdy > > board or > > > have a rigid frame underneath. If so then you can carry them a few feet > > > making sure both people work gently in unison & keep the remaining > water > > > both level & free of waves. Never move a glass tank with any water in > it > > > thatis not on a solid base because you will ruin the silicone seals. > > > > > > I would certainly advise against putting them on surfaces that your > kids > > > jump on-the vibration will severely stress the fish. If possible a tank > > > should be located away from the main traffic area of the house & > > also away > > > from any sunlight or heaters. > > > > > > John*<o)))< > > > > > > * > > > On 12 December 2011 13:35, haecklers <haecklers@...> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > My 30 gallon sprung a leak, I found out by stepping in a puddle in my > > > > living room that I traced to water dripping down from the ceiling. > > > > > > > > About 5 gallons had leaked out of my 30 gallon tank before I knew > > about > > > > it. It soaked through the carpet, padding, and floor/ceiling. > > > > > > > > What do we need to do now? Do I need to worry about mold or the wood > > > > rotting or will it just gradually dry out? (Winter here, the air > > is really > > > > dry in the house). Should I rip up the carpet to let the padding > > dry or > > > > open up the ceiling to air that out? > > > > > > > > UGH!!! I wish I'd listened to that person who said to put a sheet of > > > > styrofoam under the tanks!!! > > > > > > > > So for the two other huge tanks I have, with fish and plants: I was > > > > thinking of lowering the water level to a few inches then lifting > > them to > > > > slide some styrofoam under them. Is that too risky (they say only > move > > > > empty tanks, right?) or is it more risky to have big tanks full of > > water on > > > > a surface that regularly gets vibrated from my kids jumping around? > > > > > > > > Should I just stop using that 30g for fish? It will be hard for me to > > > > trust it now. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52732	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/14/2011
Subject: What's ailing my tetra?

My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. I made some movies and two photos at http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear but you can definitely get the idea. Yours, Dora [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52733	From: Ray	Date: 12/14/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > Yours, > > Dora > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52734	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

Ray, what exactly do you believe is the diagnosis?  Online I've seen swim bladder disease and constipation, neither with photos so you could see what what they were talking about would look like. Dora ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:21 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra?   Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > Yours, > > Dora > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52735	From: Ray	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

Dora, As you've seen this fisg display this condition for two weeks now, I think we can rule out Dropsey, as 1) the fish wouldn't still be eating if it's organs were so affected, and 2) you would be seeing th "pinecone" effect of the scales by this time. Swim bladder disease can manifest itself a several ways, but usually either the posterior or anterior section of the swim bladder will swell with excess gas, causing the fish to become quite bouyant and float near the surface in either a forward or rearward orientation -- unless the entire swim bladder is affected. That the fish is swollen, and that it still has trouble getting to the top of the tank, would seem to rule out a bladder infection as the only condition the bladder could have taken on in this case would have been for it not being able to retain enough gas -- but this is not the case if the fish appears swollen -- so we can rule out a bladder infection. I couldn't download the movies, and you're right, the photos aren't too clear, but I see this as a case of constipation -- unless you have reason to believe otherwise, from the fish defecating. While the green peas often work, they don't always do so -- and the reason why I recommended the Epsom salt. One other reason that I don't believe it's any kind of infection, is that it's doubtful that the fish would last this long if this were the case. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > Ray, what exactly do you believe is the diagnosis?  Online I've seen swim bladder disease and constipation, neither with photos so you could see what what they were talking about would look like. > > Dora > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:21 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > >   > Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52736	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

I already use 2 tsps uniodized sea salt per five gallons. So 1 tsp per five gallons of Epsom salts? Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:22 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > Yours, > > Dora > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52737	From: Ray	Date: 12/15/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

NOT "tsp" (teaspoon)!!! I had spelled it out; TABLESPOON. Use ome Tablespoon of Epsom salt per 5 gallons. Sea salt does nothing to affect constipation, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I already use 2 tsps uniodized sea salt per five gallons. So 1 tsp per five > gallons of Epsom salts? > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:22 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > > > > > Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a > Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons > after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt > addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52738	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: problem with new tank setup

Hi, I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! Nora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52739	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup

Remove the white pebbles and buy an aquarium-safe substrate. Switch the fish from goldfish to guppies or zebra danios or tetras because each goldfish needs 30G or more of water. You need a BIG tank for goldfish. What is the pH of your tap water? Dr. Tim’s One and Only is the only beneficial bacteria product I know that works the others, not so much. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of nonstopmom888 Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 4:13 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] problem with new tank setup Hi, I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! Nora [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52740	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup

I definitely have to agree with Donna... you can't keep even 1 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank, they grow way too big really fast and they are one of the dirtiest fish there are. Goldfish need a very large tank. Comet goldfish (feeder goldfish) grow to approximately 14 inches each and fancy goldfish 6 - 9 inches and if healthy should reach full size within the first 2 - 3 yrs. A 1 inch goldfish would outgrow a 10 gallon tank in a matter of a couple of months. Minimum tank size for 1 comet goldfish is about 90 gallons, and for 1 fancy goldfish is about 75 - 90 gallons with heavy filtration. In regards to speeding things up... not a good idea, especially if you are new to fish keeping. From your limited information provided in your post I am assuming you don't have water test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? You will need all of these to track the water chemistry in your tank. You will notice that when you ask for help one of the first things anyone will ask for is test results for those 4 tests. Knowing those numbers is important to be successful. Without those numbers, what anyone can do to help you will be limited. Initially you should test your tap water as well as your aquarium water so you know how much difference there gets to be between the 2, especially pH, but not limited to it. Not everyone has good tap water for keeping fish. High ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in tap water can make fish keeping a bit more challenging (and expensive). Setting up an aquarium is a bit more complicated than just adding water, gravel, filter, and fish and then watching them swim. There are many different species of fish and each has specific requirements for its environment. If you wish to keep cold water fish you must first determine what you consider "cold water". Letting your filled aquarium sit for 24 - 48 hrs and then checking the temperature will help to determine what temperature range your water will stay. If the temperature in the room where the tank sits fluctuates during the course of the year (season changes) that should also be taken into account. A room that gets too cold may require a heater to be added to the tank to keep the temperature stable during cold months even for cold water fish. The best gift you could offer your children right now would be to teach them that patience is vital for successfully keeping fish alive and healthy. Let them learn with you and take your time. To do otherwise will only result in sick or dead animals which is not only heart breaking, especially to kids, but it gets expensive quickly. There are a lot of options for fish species, however, if you want cold water (no heater) then the options are much more limited. You will want to check with your local pet store to see what they have available and then set up the tank conditions according to what your chosen fish species needs. Easy beginner options are the zebra danios that Donna mentioned and also white clouds or gold white clouds. If you choose to add a heater then your options increase to live bearers such as guppies, platys, mollys, swordtails, any of the smaller rasbora species, odessa barbs, a single betta, and the list goes on. How many fish you can keep in your tank will depend on what species you decide to work with. I would not suggest keeping fancy guppies in an unheated tank. If you should decide to work with something along the lines of guppies you will need to know not to get a male/female pair. Any of the live bearers will need multiple females for each male or should be kept as all males together to prevent breeding. Should you choose to allow breeding then this is something else you should be prepared for because they will quickly overpopulate a 10 gallon tank (in a matter of a few months). You would need an outlet for the many fry they will produce (each female can have 30+ fry every 30 days) Besides the basic gravel and filter for your aquarium you will also need decorations and plants (live or fake doesn't matter) to provide shelter for the fish. Adding fish to a bare tank will cause extreme stress and when it comes to fish, stress kills. The shelter provided from decoration will also help avoid aggression problems. You came to the right place to learn all you need to know to be successful with your new tank, but I can't stress enough how important it is to have patience and learn what is needed before you jump in and end up with a multitude of problems. Welcome to the group and to fish keeping. I look forward to contributing to helping you with your new tank. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... > > My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... > > My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. > > 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? > > 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... > I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. > Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? > > Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. > > What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? > > Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! > > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52741	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup

Hi Donna, thanks for the info! I had asked the sales person about the size of the fish and he had told me they adapt to the size of the aquarium... Thanks to your post I read more and realized it is an unhealthy/stunted way for the fish if they do not grow to their full size. So we will look into the other fish alternatives. And yes, I will definitely will get a test kit for the water and tank and new gravel. Thanks, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Donna Ransome <djransome@...> wrote: > > Remove the white pebbles and buy an aquarium-safe substrate. > > > > Switch the fish from goldfish to guppies or zebra danios or tetras because > each goldfish needs 30G or more of water. You need a BIG tank for goldfish. > > > > > What is the pH of your tap water? > > > > Dr. Tim's One and Only is the only beneficial bacteria product I know that > works the others, not so much. > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of nonstopmom888 > Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 4:13 AM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] problem with new tank setup > > > > > > Hi, > > I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium > tank setup... > > My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon > aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, > filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I > cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until > tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... > > My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the > evening and realized the problem I have now. > > 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell > like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they > probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like > that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the > white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into > the tank? > > 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... > I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I > asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. > Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial > bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a > third of the water on a daily basis? > > Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a > problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it > if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph > tank too often. > > What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but > without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? > > Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! > > Nora > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52742	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions

Hi Dawn and everyone, thanks a lot for all the advice! The one good point I can say for our setup: yes we had added rocks to hide and decoration for the fish ;) Beside that I will try to improve things: yes we will get a test kit for the water, change the gravel and look into other fish types. Goldfish is clearly the wrong fish and I will try to explain to my 4 year old... We live in California and our house has a room temp. of approx. low 70s F (winter/summer). So I thought that should be fine with cold water fish without regulation of water temperature? General questions about the other fish: how to I prevent them from multiplying? I do not want to add too many fish in a small tank and thought we stick to maybe 5. Do they breed in dependence of water temperature or does it depend on the type of fish or other factors? Is there a certain type I could get so they do not breed? Thanks again, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > I definitely have to agree with Donna... you can't keep even 1 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank, they grow way too big really fast and they are one of the dirtiest fish there are. Goldfish need a very large tank. Comet goldfish (feeder goldfish) grow to approximately 14 inches each and fancy goldfish 6 - 9 inches and if healthy should reach full size within the first 2 - 3 yrs. A 1 inch goldfish would outgrow a 10 gallon tank in a matter of a couple of months. Minimum tank size for 1 comet goldfish is about 90 gallons, and for 1 fancy goldfish is about 75 - 90 gallons with heavy filtration. > > In regards to speeding things up... not a good idea, especially if you are new to fish keeping. From your limited information provided in your post I am assuming you don't have water test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? You will need all of these to track the water chemistry in your tank. You will notice that when you ask for help one of the first things anyone will ask for is test results for those 4 tests. Knowing those numbers is important to be successful. Without those numbers, what anyone can do to help you will be limited. Initially you should test your tap water as well as your aquarium water so you know how much difference there gets to be between the 2, especially pH, but not limited to it. Not everyone has good tap water for keeping fish. High ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in tap water can make fish keeping a bit more challenging (and expensive). > > Setting up an aquarium is a bit more complicated than just adding water, gravel, filter, and fish and then watching them swim. There are many different species of fish and each has specific requirements for its environment. If you wish to keep cold water fish you must first determine what you consider "cold water". Letting your filled aquarium sit for 24 - 48 hrs and then checking the temperature will help to determine what temperature range your water will stay. If the temperature in the room where the tank sits fluctuates during the course of the year (season changes) that should also be taken into account. A room that gets too cold may require a heater to be added to the tank to keep the temperature stable during cold months even for cold water fish. > > The best gift you could offer your children right now would be to teach them that patience is vital for successfully keeping fish alive and healthy. Let them learn with you and take your time. To do otherwise will only result in sick or dead animals which is not only heart breaking, especially to kids, but it gets expensive quickly. > > There are a lot of options for fish species, however, if you want cold water (no heater) then the options are much more limited. You will want to check with your local pet store to see what they have available and then set up the tank conditions according to what your chosen fish species needs. Easy beginner options are the zebra danios that Donna mentioned and also white clouds or gold white clouds. If you choose to add a heater then your options increase to live bearers such as guppies, platys, mollys, swordtails, any of the smaller rasbora species, odessa barbs, a single betta, and the list goes on. How many fish you can keep in your tank will depend on what species you decide to work with. I would not suggest keeping fancy guppies in an unheated tank. If you should decide to work with something along the lines of guppies you will need to know not to get a male/female pair. Any of the live bearers will need multiple females for each male or should be kept as all males together to prevent breeding. Should you choose to allow breeding then this is something else you should be prepared for because they will quickly overpopulate a 10 gallon tank (in a matter of a few months). You would need an outlet for the many fry they will produce (each female can have 30+ fry every 30 days) > > Besides the basic gravel and filter for your aquarium you will also need decorations and plants (live or fake doesn't matter) to provide shelter for the fish. Adding fish to a bare tank will cause extreme stress and when it comes to fish, stress kills. The shelter provided from decoration will also help avoid aggression problems. > > You came to the right place to learn all you need to know to be successful with your new tank, but I can't stress enough how important it is to have patience and learn what is needed before you jump in and end up with a multitude of problems. > > Welcome to the group and to fish keeping. I look forward to contributing to helping you with your new tank. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... > > > > My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... > > > > My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. > > > > 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? > > > > 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... > > I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. > > Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? > > > > Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. > > > > What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? > > > > Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! > > > > Nora > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52743	From: William	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24

In short, I have quite a number of years in the hobby and have raised many fish in that time. What I have never worked with are live plants. I have not had ANY experience with them at all. Now into my retiring years I would like to try this part of the hobby at least once. To that end, I need special help in getting some facts about the new LED lighting systems or any lighting system which will adequately light this new aquarium. Of special interest is the new fixture from Marineland like their Double Bright system. The tank I need to illuminate is a standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24. It's that 24 inches deep part that worries me. Will any of these "new" systems provide enough light for plants at this depth. Such as the Marineland Double Bright set up or would I be better off with some kind of double tube T-5 unit. Can you please provide exact make and manufacture of such a units that may come to mind. 99 percent of everything I buy is on line, my local LPS is Wal-Mart. bill in pa

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52744	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

I wanted to know if it's safe to put in that much total salt - basically that would be 1 tsp / gallon. Dora ________________________________ From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:15 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra?   NOT "tsp" (teaspoon)!!! I had spelled it out; TABLESPOON. Use ome Tablespoon of Epsom salt per 5 gallons. Sea salt does nothing to affect constipation, Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I already use 2 tsps uniodized sea salt per five gallons. So 1 tsp per five > gallons of Epsom salts? > > > > Dora > > > > _____ > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of Ray > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:22 PM > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > > > > > Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a > Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons > after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt > addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52745	From: Ray	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

It's safe; that would be 0.6 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon -- a little more that 1/2 tsp / gallon. You could do a 50% PWC first, to remove half of the sea salt you added. Without doing that, you'd be adding the Epsom salt on top of 0.4 teaspoons of sea salt. If you feel that the treatment can hold off for a few days, do a 50% PWC today and another 50% PWC tomorrow (recommended) to bring the sea salt level down to 0.1 teaspoons per gallon. This would play it safe for the Tetra's salt tolerance as long as it's not in distress with the issue it's having. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I wanted to know if it's safe to put in that much total salt - basically that would be 1 tsp / gallon. > > Dora > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:15 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > >   > NOT "tsp" (teaspoon)!!! I had spelled it out; TABLESPOON. Use ome Tablespoon of Epsom salt per 5 gallons. Sea salt does nothing to affect constipation, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > I already use 2 tsps uniodized sea salt per five gallons. So 1 tsp per five > > gallons of Epsom salts? > > > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:22 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a > > Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons > > after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt > > addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > > > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > > > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > > > > > > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > > > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > > > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52746	From: haecklers	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions

If you don't want them to breed, stay away from guppies. A lot of the other livebearers will eat their babies so you won't get much of a population building up from them. Danios breed like crazy but also eat their eggs so they almost never hatch unless you remove them. They are fun to have and very active, but they do jump sometimes. White Cloud minnows get really pretty colors as they mature, and are hardy fish at room temperature. Bettas are interactive, so a lot of kids like them for that reason. Hold up a mirror and they flare and do their war dance; they also follow your finger and beg for food. They prefer to be around 80 but mine seem happy at 75 and they live longer at the cooler temperatures as long as you don't let it get too cold. Another option is a dwarf clawed frog, tho they can be tricky to feed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn and everyone, > > thanks a lot for all the advice! > The one good point I can say for our setup: yes we had added rocks to hide and decoration for the fish ;) > > Beside that I will try to improve things: > yes we will get a test kit for the water, change the gravel and look into other fish types. Goldfish is clearly the wrong fish and I will try to explain to my 4 year old... > > We live in California and our house has a room temp. of approx. low 70s F (winter/summer). So I thought that should be fine with cold water fish without regulation of water temperature? > > General questions about the other fish: > how to I prevent them from multiplying? I do not want to add too many fish in a small tank and thought we stick to maybe 5. Do they breed in dependence of water temperature or does it depend on the type of fish or other factors? > Is there a certain type I could get so they do not breed? > > Thanks again, > Nora > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I definitely have to agree with Donna... you can't keep even 1 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank, they grow way too big really fast and they are one of the dirtiest fish there are. Goldfish need a very large tank. Comet goldfish (feeder goldfish) grow to approximately 14 inches each and fancy goldfish 6 - 9 inches and if healthy should reach full size within the first 2 - 3 yrs. A 1 inch goldfish would outgrow a 10 gallon tank in a matter of a couple of months. Minimum tank size for 1 comet goldfish is about 90 gallons, and for 1 fancy goldfish is about 75 - 90 gallons with heavy filtration. > > > > In regards to speeding things up... not a good idea, especially if you are new to fish keeping. From your limited information provided in your post I am assuming you don't have water test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? You will need all of these to track the water chemistry in your tank. You will notice that when you ask for help one of the first things anyone will ask for is test results for those 4 tests. Knowing those numbers is important to be successful. Without those numbers, what anyone can do to help you will be limited. Initially you should test your tap water as well as your aquarium water so you know how much difference there gets to be between the 2, especially pH, but not limited to it. Not everyone has good tap water for keeping fish. High ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in tap water can make fish keeping a bit more challenging (and expensive). > > > > Setting up an aquarium is a bit more complicated than just adding water, gravel, filter, and fish and then watching them swim. There are many different species of fish and each has specific requirements for its environment. If you wish to keep cold water fish you must first determine what you consider "cold water". Letting your filled aquarium sit for 24 - 48 hrs and then checking the temperature will help to determine what temperature range your water will stay. If the temperature in the room where the tank sits fluctuates during the course of the year (season changes) that should also be taken into account. A room that gets too cold may require a heater to be added to the tank to keep the temperature stable during cold months even for cold water fish. > > > > The best gift you could offer your children right now would be to teach them that patience is vital for successfully keeping fish alive and healthy. Let them learn with you and take your time. To do otherwise will only result in sick or dead animals which is not only heart breaking, especially to kids, but it gets expensive quickly. > > > > There are a lot of options for fish species, however, if you want cold water (no heater) then the options are much more limited. You will want to check with your local pet store to see what they have available and then set up the tank conditions according to what your chosen fish species needs. Easy beginner options are the zebra danios that Donna mentioned and also white clouds or gold white clouds. If you choose to add a heater then your options increase to live bearers such as guppies, platys, mollys, swordtails, any of the smaller rasbora species, odessa barbs, a single betta, and the list goes on. How many fish you can keep in your tank will depend on what species you decide to work with. I would not suggest keeping fancy guppies in an unheated tank. If you should decide to work with something along the lines of guppies you will need to know not to get a male/female pair. Any of the live bearers will need multiple females for each male or should be kept as all males together to prevent breeding. Should you choose to allow breeding then this is something else you should be prepared for because they will quickly overpopulate a 10 gallon tank (in a matter of a few months). You would need an outlet for the many fry they will produce (each female can have 30+ fry every 30 days) > > > > Besides the basic gravel and filter for your aquarium you will also need decorations and plants (live or fake doesn't matter) to provide shelter for the fish. Adding fish to a bare tank will cause extreme stress and when it comes to fish, stress kills. The shelter provided from decoration will also help avoid aggression problems. > > > > You came to the right place to learn all you need to know to be successful with your new tank, but I can't stress enough how important it is to have patience and learn what is needed before you jump in and end up with a multitude of problems. > > > > Welcome to the group and to fish keeping. I look forward to contributing to helping you with your new tank. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... > > > > > > My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... > > > > > > My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. > > > > > > 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? > > > > > > 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... > > > I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. > > > Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? > > > > > > Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. > > > > > > What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? > > > > > > Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! > > > > > > Nora > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52747	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/16/2011
Subject: Re: What's ailing my tetra?

Heh, heh, it was pretty much going to have to wait for tank cleaning day anyway. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 1:14 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? It's safe; that would be 0.6 teaspoons of Epsom salt per gallon -- a little more that 1/2 tsp / gallon. You could do a 50% PWC first, to remove half of the sea salt you added. Without doing that, you'd be adding the Epsom salt on top of 0.4 teaspoons of sea salt. If you feel that the treatment can hold off for a few days, do a 50% PWC today and another 50% PWC tomorrow (recommended) to bring the sea salt level down to 0.1 teaspoons per gallon. This would play it safe for the Tetra's salt tolerance as long as it's not in distress with the issue it's having. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , Dora Smith <tiggernut24@...> wrote: > > I wanted to know if it's safe to put in that much total salt - basically that would be 1 tsp / gallon. > > Dora > > > > ________________________________ > From: Ray <sevenspringss@...> > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:15 PM > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > > Â > NOT "tsp" (teaspoon)!!! I had spelled it out; TABLESPOON. Use ome Tablespoon of Epsom salt per 5 gallons. Sea salt does nothing to affect constipation, > > Ray > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > I already use 2 tsps uniodized sea salt per five gallons. So 1 tsp per five > > gallons of Epsom salts? > > > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> ] On > > Behalf Of Ray > > Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:22 PM > > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> > > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: What's ailing my tetra? > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried Epsom salt -- 1 Tablespoon per 5 gallons? If this were not a > > Tetra (or a Cory cat), you could add another 1/2 Tablespoon per 5 gallons > > after several day, if there were no results with the first Epsom salt > > addition, but I wouldn't recommend it for this fish. > > > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , > > "Dora Smith" <tiggernut24@> wrote: > > > > > > My tetra has a swollen belly. He is eating fine but often has trouble > > > getting to the top of the tank to get at food. I have tried raw peas and > > > brine shrimp. This has been going on for a couple of weeks. > > > > > > > > > > > > I made some movies and two photos at > > > http://pets.webshots.com/album/581999297hrAtJK The photos aren't too clear > > > but you can definitely get the idea. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yours, > > > > > > Dora > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52748	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: molly as starter fish?

Hi all, yesterday I had bought a new aquarium tank to start with coldwater fish and got good advice about the setup. When we went to the store to get more supplies we ended up switching to tropical fish and got a heater etc. Unfortunately I had not informed myself about tropical fish before and just took what the sales person recommended as possible starter fish. We are happy with the fish but I started to worry if we got too many and how to treat them. For a 10 gallon tank (fresh set up from today) we got 3 molly and 1 white cloud fish. Since the tank is not cycled yet we added bacteria. In the store they insisted that the only real way to cycle a tank is to add fish and we could do it with the chosen fish. I read now in the internet that molly fish are very sensitive to nitrite/ammonia and that salt might help them? How much salt should I add? Should I add everything immediately or spread out over several days? Also I read they should have more veggie food than other? What type of food should I use? Can I make the Molly happy and still keep the golden white cloud? Can the white cloud live with the salt? How are they are chances of survival? Thanks for tips and advice! Nora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52749	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: problem with new tank setup - more questions

Nora, If live bearers are something you desire it is easy to avoid breeding by keeping only male fish. They get along just fine together as long as they have plenty of hiding places to get away from each other if any should decide to get too dominant. However, low 70's is not what I would call an optimal situation for any of the live bearing fishes. I would urge a heater and upper 70's for a steady healthy temp. I also wouldn't attempt a dwarf frog or a betta in an unheated tank, either. Both of these would need a more controlled temperature that isn't possible in a tank without a heater present and both really should have mid to upper 70's for temp range. If you want 5 of something that is colorful, active, and can thrive in a 10 gallon unheated tank I would opt for the white cloud minnows and/or gold white clouds. The 2 different color morphs can live together peacefully and it is extremely unlikely they would breed in those conditions. If you hope to keep 5 fish total then I would urge you to stick with fish that stay very small (no larger than 1 - 1 1/2 inches each full grown). White clouds average about 1 inch at adult size. The only other species really suited for your type of set up would be the smaller species of danios (zebra danios, leopard, and blue... all of which can be found in long fin or short fin varieties and compatible with each other). Danios are extremely active as well but not quite as colorful as the white clouds, and not compatible to be kept with the white clouds in that size of a tank. Both the danios and white clouds are "easy" fish to care for and great for beginners, and both are more tolerant of mistakes than most of the other species listed thus far. I would suggest you Google each of the danio species and both of the white cloud color morphs to get a better idea of what they are, what they look like, and basic info on them. If you have specific questions please just ask. Once your tank is set up and full of water, filter running, etc. its a good idea to let it run empty of animals for at least a few days. To get started you can add 1 or 2 fish, give the tank a chance to cycle which can take anywhere from 3 - 6 wks on average, (keep feedings very light during the cycling process to avoid a hard cycle) and then once the cycle is complete you can add the other 3 - 4 fish... either one at a time or 2 at a time until you have all 5. If you add the remaining group of 3 - 4 all at once you will want to watch your water parameters closely to be sure the tank doesn't go through what is called a mini cycle due to the amount of extra waste being added all at once until the bacteria population catches up. Again, if feedings are kept light this shouldn't be a problem. Before I go I just want to say thank you for doing the right thing about the goldfish. Not everyone is as responsible and understanding of the limitations that come with keeping healthy fish. Purposely stunting the growth of any animal is cruel and causes a lot of harm that isn't always visible just by looking at them. The person who helped you at the store is someone you know now isn't going to give you accurate information, so I would suggest avoiding any advice they offer. You can find all the help you want/need right here anytime of the day or night. We are only a click away. ;-) When trying to explain to your 4 yr old about the goldfish, try taking him/her to the pet store and showing them a 90 gallon tank and explain that this is what a goldfish would need. Children often respond much better with visual aids, which makes life simpler for the parent. Another approach I've used with the little ones when explaining such a thing is to get some construction paper and cut out a 14 inch fish shape, the hold it up to the fish tank and show the child that the fish couldn't possibly fit into such a small tank. Once they see the size for themselves you can then explain it would be like a child trying to grow up living in a closet... it just can't work and isn't a nice thing to do. When you use yourself as a size comparison to your child when explaining about baby fish growing up, they usually catch on quickly. I have actually stuffed myself into a closet a few times just to get my point across and made a funny game out of it. I stretch out my arms and try to turn around and make it "silly" enough for the child to laugh and learn at the same time. Works like a charm every time. Best of luck to you! Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn and everyone, > > thanks a lot for all the advice! > The one good point I can say for our setup: yes we had added rocks to hide and decoration for the fish ;) > > Beside that I will try to improve things: > yes we will get a test kit for the water, change the gravel and look into other fish types. Goldfish is clearly the wrong fish and I will try to explain to my 4 year old... > > We live in California and our house has a room temp. of approx. low 70s F (winter/summer). So I thought that should be fine with cold water fish without regulation of water temperature? > > General questions about the other fish: > how to I prevent them from multiplying? I do not want to add too many fish in a small tank and thought we stick to maybe 5. Do they breed in dependence of water temperature or does it depend on the type of fish or other factors? > Is there a certain type I could get so they do not breed? > > Thanks again, > Nora > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > I definitely have to agree with Donna... you can't keep even 1 goldfish in a 10 gallon tank, they grow way too big really fast and they are one of the dirtiest fish there are. Goldfish need a very large tank. Comet goldfish (feeder goldfish) grow to approximately 14 inches each and fancy goldfish 6 - 9 inches and if healthy should reach full size within the first 2 - 3 yrs. A 1 inch goldfish would outgrow a 10 gallon tank in a matter of a couple of months. Minimum tank size for 1 comet goldfish is about 90 gallons, and for 1 fancy goldfish is about 75 - 90 gallons with heavy filtration. > > > > In regards to speeding things up... not a good idea, especially if you are new to fish keeping. From your limited information provided in your post I am assuming you don't have water test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH? You will need all of these to track the water chemistry in your tank. You will notice that when you ask for help one of the first things anyone will ask for is test results for those 4 tests. Knowing those numbers is important to be successful. Without those numbers, what anyone can do to help you will be limited. Initially you should test your tap water as well as your aquarium water so you know how much difference there gets to be between the 2, especially pH, but not limited to it. Not everyone has good tap water for keeping fish. High ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate in tap water can make fish keeping a bit more challenging (and expensive). > > > > Setting up an aquarium is a bit more complicated than just adding water, gravel, filter, and fish and then watching them swim. There are many different species of fish and each has specific requirements for its environment. If you wish to keep cold water fish you must first determine what you consider "cold water". Letting your filled aquarium sit for 24 - 48 hrs and then checking the temperature will help to determine what temperature range your water will stay. If the temperature in the room where the tank sits fluctuates during the course of the year (season changes) that should also be taken into account. A room that gets too cold may require a heater to be added to the tank to keep the temperature stable during cold months even for cold water fish. > > > > The best gift you could offer your children right now would be to teach them that patience is vital for successfully keeping fish alive and healthy. Let them learn with you and take your time. To do otherwise will only result in sick or dead animals which is not only heart breaking, especially to kids, but it gets expensive quickly. > > > > There are a lot of options for fish species, however, if you want cold water (no heater) then the options are much more limited. You will want to check with your local pet store to see what they have available and then set up the tank conditions according to what your chosen fish species needs. Easy beginner options are the zebra danios that Donna mentioned and also white clouds or gold white clouds. If you choose to add a heater then your options increase to live bearers such as guppies, platys, mollys, swordtails, any of the smaller rasbora species, odessa barbs, a single betta, and the list goes on. How many fish you can keep in your tank will depend on what species you decide to work with. I would not suggest keeping fancy guppies in an unheated tank. If you should decide to work with something along the lines of guppies you will need to know not to get a male/female pair. Any of the live bearers will need multiple females for each male or should be kept as all males together to prevent breeding. Should you choose to allow breeding then this is something else you should be prepared for because they will quickly overpopulate a 10 gallon tank (in a matter of a few months). You would need an outlet for the many fry they will produce (each female can have 30+ fry every 30 days) > > > > Besides the basic gravel and filter for your aquarium you will also need decorations and plants (live or fake doesn't matter) to provide shelter for the fish. Adding fish to a bare tank will cause extreme stress and when it comes to fish, stress kills. The shelter provided from decoration will also help avoid aggression problems. > > > > You came to the right place to learn all you need to know to be successful with your new tank, but I can't stress enough how important it is to have patience and learn what is needed before you jump in and end up with a multitude of problems. > > > > Welcome to the group and to fish keeping. I look forward to contributing to helping you with your new tank. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I could need all the help I can get with some fast info for my new aquarium tank setup... > > > > > > My two kids (4 and 7) convinced me today that getting a first 10 gallon aquarium starter kit is a good idea. So I got the tank set, cleaned it, filled it with white gravel pebbles that we still had for our walkway (I cleaned them in hot water) and thought after running the filter system until tomorrow I can add the goldfish they wanted... > > > > > > My troubles now: I read a lot about fish keeping and aquariums in the evening and realized the problem I have now. > > > > > > 1. the white pebbles I used are probably related with limestone (they smell like chalk and I can draw white lines with them on the board). I read they probably raise the ph value of the tank and most freshwater fish do not like that. I planned to have cold water fish like goldfish... How bad are the white pebbles and should/must I exchange them before putting the fish into the tank? > > > > > > 2. I read just now about "cycling" an aquarium... > > > I had no idea and the salesperson in the shop never mentioned it when I asked if I could add fish tomorrow in the tank. > > > Can I just add 2 goldfish in the 10 gallon tank with a package of beneficial bacteria to shorten the process of cycling? Would it help if I replace a third of the water on a daily basis? > > > > > > Or is the high ph value that I probably have due to the white pebbles a problem with changing too much water regularly? I read fish do not like it if the ph value jumps around because I add "neutral" water to the high ph tank too often. > > > > > > What can I do to keep my promise to my kids (goldfish tomorrow...) but without too much cruelty to the fish and a high "survival" rate? > > > > > > Thanks a lot for options and advice!!! > > > > > > Nora > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52750	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?

Hi Nora, I am hoping that the sales person also sold you a test kit for your set up? Especially with that many fish going into an uncycled tank... not a good situation. In answer to your question about the salt, no, the white cloud is not tolerant of salt the way the mollys are. Molly's are one of the few fish that can live in freshwater, brackish water, and full saltwater if its done/acclimated to it gradually and properly. The one thing the sales person did tell you that was accurate is that mollys do much better with salt in the water. Mollys can be a challenge because they tend to be more prone to bacterial and fungal infections that a lot of the other livebearing fishes. The salt helps to avoid those issues. Also, white clouds are very sensitive to medications, so if you should need to treat the mollys for infection I would urge you to set up a quarantine tank and move the white cloud to it during treatment. Mollys kept in cooler water temps are more prone to infection than those kept in the upper 70's to low 80's. Along with worries of losing fish during the cycling process because there are so many in there, you also now have the complication of finding out if you have male or female mollys, what the ratio is of each, and if there are females, how to deal with the many fry they will produce. Any female molly coming from a store tank with males mixed in is likely to be pregnant already, which means she can give birth to 30+ fry every 30 days, and... she can do this 3 - 4 times without a male present. (the female livebearers have the ability to store milt within their bodies to fertilize eggs for 3 - 4 months at a time without needing to mate again) 1 female molly can quickly over populate your tank in a matter of a month's time. To tell the sex of your mollys you will want to look at the fin near the anal region (under the tail). In a male live bearing fish this fin is long and spike shaped and held up close to the body. In a female this fin will be shorter, pear shaped, and typically held open/distended. I would suggest you not allow the people at your pet store to advise you on fish in the future. They either don't know what they're talking about or are simply trying to take your money... both of which are common in pet stores today. Either way this makes being successful long term very difficult for you if they are your chosen advisers. There isn't much this group is going to be able to help you with if you are prone to impulse buying or taking bad advice from the store... except maybe to explain the mistakes to you along with how to fix them. For future reference, impulse buying and fish keeping don't mix. I fear you are off to a bit of a rough start. I wish you luck. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > yesterday I had bought a new aquarium tank to start with coldwater fish and got good advice about the setup. > > When we went to the store to get more supplies we ended up switching to tropical fish and got a heater etc. Unfortunately I had not informed myself about tropical fish before and just took what the sales person recommended as possible starter fish. We are happy with the fish but I started to worry if we got too many and how to treat them. > > For a 10 gallon tank (fresh set up from today) we got 3 molly and 1 white cloud fish. Since the tank is not cycled yet we added bacteria. In the store they insisted that the only real way to cycle a tank is to add fish and we could do it with the chosen fish. I read now in the internet that molly fish are very sensitive to nitrite/ammonia and that salt might help them? How much salt should I add? Should I add everything immediately or spread out over several days? > Also I read they should have more veggie food than other? What type of food should I use? > Can I make the Molly happy and still keep the golden white cloud? Can the white cloud live with the salt? How are they are chances of survival? > > Thanks for tips and advice! > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52751	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?

Hi Nora    I used to have a few mollies they didn't work out that well for me in my 10 gal. I prefer male guppies they are very pretty and come in allot of different colors.    p.s.if you later on get guppies only get males if you get females and males you'll end up with a ton of babies that you have to get rid of and that can be a pain.   Emma --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: molly as starter fish? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 7:15 AM   Hi Nora, I am hoping that the sales person also sold you a test kit for your set up? Especially with that many fish going into an uncycled tank... not a good situation. In answer to your question about the salt, no, the white cloud is not tolerant of salt the way the mollys are. Molly's are one of the few fish that can live in freshwater, brackish water, and full saltwater if its done/acclimated to it gradually and properly. The one thing the sales person did tell you that was accurate is that mollys do much better with salt in the water. Mollys can be a challenge because they tend to be more prone to bacterial and fungal infections that a lot of the other livebearing fishes. The salt helps to avoid those issues. Also, white clouds are very sensitive to medications, so if you should need to treat the mollys for infection I would urge you to set up a quarantine tank and move the white cloud to it during treatment. Mollys kept in cooler water temps are more prone to infection than those kept in the upper 70's to low 80's. Along with worries of losing fish during the cycling process because there are so many in there, you also now have the complication of finding out if you have male or female mollys, what the ratio is of each, and if there are females, how to deal with the many fry they will produce. Any female molly coming from a store tank with males mixed in is likely to be pregnant already, which means she can give birth to 30+ fry every 30 days, and... she can do this 3 - 4 times without a male present. (the female livebearers have the ability to store milt within their bodies to fertilize eggs for 3 - 4 months at a time without needing to mate again) 1 female molly can quickly over populate your tank in a matter of a month's time. To tell the sex of your mollys you will want to look at the fin near the anal region (under the tail). In a male live bearing fish this fin is long and spike shaped and held up close to the body. In a female this fin will be shorter, pear shaped, and typically held open/distended. I would suggest you not allow the people at your pet store to advise you on fish in the future. They either don't know what they're talking about or are simply trying to take your money... both of which are common in pet stores today. Either way this makes being successful long term very difficult for you if they are your chosen advisers. There isn't much this group is going to be able to help you with if you are prone to impulse buying or taking bad advice from the store... except maybe to explain the mistakes to you along with how to fix them. For future reference, impulse buying and fish keeping don't mix. I fear you are off to a bit of a rough start. I wish you luck. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi all, > > yesterday I had bought a new aquarium tank to start with coldwater fish and got good advice about the setup. > > When we went to the store to get more supplies we ended up switching to tropical fish and got a heater etc. Unfortunately I had not informed myself about tropical fish before and just took what the sales person recommended as possible starter fish. We are happy with the fish but I started to worry if we got too many and how to treat them. > > For a 10 gallon tank (fresh set up from today) we got 3 molly and 1 white cloud fish. Since the tank is not cycled yet we added bacteria. In the store they insisted that the only real way to cycle a tank is to add fish and we could do it with the chosen fish. I read now in the internet that molly fish are very sensitive to nitrite/ammonia and that salt might help them? How much salt should I add? Should I add everything immediately or spread out over several days? > Also I read they should have more veggie food than other? What type of food should I use? > Can I make the Molly happy and still keep the golden white cloud? Can the white cloud live with the salt? How are they are chances of survival? > > Thanks for tips and advice! > Nora > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52752	From: cobra427lady	Date: 12/17/2011
Subject: Re: Standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24

Hi Bill: I replied via email to you directly - hope I provided some helpful information since I get so much from this group :-) Cheers, Clare --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William" <warrenprint@...> wrote: > > In short, I have quite a number of years in the hobby and have raised many fish in that time. What I have never worked with are live plants. I have not had ANY experience with them at all. Now into my retiring years I would like to try this part of the hobby at least once. To that end, I need special help in getting some facts about the new LED lighting systems or any lighting system which will adequately light this new aquarium. Of special interest is the new fixture from Marineland like their Double Bright system. > > The tank I need to illuminate is a standard 65-gallon at 36 X 18 X 24. > It's that 24 inches deep part that worries me. Will any of these "new" systems > provide enough light for plants at this depth. Such as the Marineland Double Bright set up > or would I be better off with some kind of double tube T-5 unit. Can you please provide exact > make and manufacture of such a units that may come to mind. 99 percent of everything I buy is on line, my local LPS is Wal-Mart. > > bill in pa >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52753	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: Molly as starter... info about setup and more questions...

Hi again, thanks again for all the advice. To explain everything a little more: The first time when I got the starter aquarium I definitely did not get enough information about fish keeping in the store. After I had read how complex it is (cycling aquariums etc. was never mentioned in that store) I decided to go to a special fish store to get further information and supplies. The second shop was a shop for tropical fish plus supplies and I thought I will get trustworthy info as well as the remaining needed supplies. They convinced me that I could go easily with tropical fish and can use the molly (as well as other fish they pointed out) to start right away (even insisting it is the only "real" way to cycle an aquarium...) After all I read in the internet I probably should have known already better but I must admit I liked to hear the option to let me kids have already a few fish immediately. As it turned out I got a heater, water plants, new gravel, bacteria, water treatment, food ... and 4 fish: 3 different male (!) mollies and 1 golden white cloud. They fish are wonderful and we love them but of course I started reading afterwards again in the internet (yes, I know I should have done that before switching to tropical fish and buying....) So after reading more we set the water temperature to 80 F, added 1 Tablespoon aquarium salt and will add another tablespoon sea salt today. Unfortunately we overfed them already on our first day. The amount of flakes we put in did not seem much but they did not eat them up immediately and a few hours later one molly did not appear well: he lingered on the bottom on the aquarium and did not move much. Fortunately he appears fine again today and we will be very careful with adding more food in the future. I want to try to make the best out of the current situation and I would love to have advice on the following: As I understand we have too many fish for "easily" cycling the aquarium. In the shop they told me not to touch the tank until cycling is done. But what good is it if I end up with dead mollies? I read one can measure the ammonia and try to keep it down by frequent changes of maybe 25% water. It would longer the cycling process but at least it is more gentle on the fish. So I would plan to do that and will add the water warm with salt and chlorine treatment. Is there something else to consider for keeping the ammonia down? I realized that the white cloud and mollies are not great in the same tank (I was never told at the store that mollies like it warmer and saltier than the average fish, only read it afterwards...yes, my mistake). The sales person said the white cloud are very tolerant to conditions. I wonder if our white cloud is tolerant enough for "molly condition"? I am sorry that the situation seems a little messed up... I know with animals one should not learn by doing and I must admit I was not very much into fish keeping before and therefore more relaxed in my approach. Now we love our fish and want to keep them happy. Thanks again, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Hi Nora, > I am hoping that the sales person also sold you a test kit for your set up? Especially with that many fish going into an uncycled tank... not a good situation. > > In answer to your question about the salt, no, the white cloud is not tolerant of salt the way the mollys are. Molly's are one of the few fish that can live in freshwater, brackish water, and full saltwater if its done/acclimated to it gradually and properly. > > The one thing the sales person did tell you that was accurate is that mollys do much better with salt in the water. Mollys can be a challenge because they tend to be more prone to bacterial and fungal infections that a lot of the other livebearing fishes. The salt helps to avoid those issues. Also, white clouds are very sensitive to medications, so if you should need to treat the mollys for infection I would urge you to set up a quarantine tank and move the white cloud to it during treatment. Mollys kept in cooler water temps are more prone to infection than those kept in the upper 70's to low 80's. > > Along with worries of losing fish during the cycling process because there are so many in there, you also now have the complication of finding out if you have male or female mollys, what the ratio is of each, and if there are females, how to deal with the many fry they will produce. Any female molly coming from a store tank with males mixed in is likely to be pregnant already, which means she can give birth to 30+ fry every 30 days, and... she can do this 3 - 4 times without a male present. (the female livebearers have the ability to store milt within their bodies to fertilize eggs for 3 - 4 months at a time without needing to mate again) 1 female molly can quickly over populate your tank in a matter of a month's time. > > To tell the sex of your mollys you will want to look at the fin near the anal region (under the tail). In a male live bearing fish this fin is long and spike shaped and held up close to the body. In a female this fin will be shorter, pear shaped, and typically held open/distended. > > I would suggest you not allow the people at your pet store to advise you on fish in the future. They either don't know what they're talking about or are simply trying to take your money... both of which are common in pet stores today. Either way this makes being successful long term very difficult for you if they are your chosen advisers. There isn't much this group is going to be able to help you with if you are prone to impulse buying or taking bad advice from the store... except maybe to explain the mistakes to you along with how to fix them. For future reference, impulse buying and fish keeping don't mix. > > I fear you are off to a bit of a rough start. I wish you luck. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > yesterday I had bought a new aquarium tank to start with coldwater fish and got good advice about the setup. > > > > When we went to the store to get more supplies we ended up switching to tropical fish and got a heater etc. Unfortunately I had not informed myself about tropical fish before and just took what the sales person recommended as possible starter fish. We are happy with the fish but I started to worry if we got too many and how to treat them. > > > > For a 10 gallon tank (fresh set up from today) we got 3 molly and 1 white cloud fish. Since the tank is not cycled yet we added bacteria. In the store they insisted that the only real way to cycle a tank is to add fish and we could do it with the chosen fish. I read now in the internet that molly fish are very sensitive to nitrite/ammonia and that salt might help them? How much salt should I add? Should I add everything immediately or spread out over several days? > > Also I read they should have more veggie food than other? What type of food should I use? > > Can I make the Molly happy and still keep the golden white cloud? Can the white cloud live with the salt? How are they are chances of survival? > > > > Thanks for tips and advice! > > Nora > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52754	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?

Hi Emma, thanks, today I looked at some guppies: they are really beautiful. Once my tank is cycled and the mollies are fine I think we might add some male guppies to them. For sure I want to avoid breeding... Thanks, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > Hi Nora >    I used to have a few mollies they didn't work out that well for me in my 10 gal. I prefer male guppies they are very pretty and come in allot of different colors. >    p.s.if you later on get guppies only get males if you get females and males you'll end up with a ton of babies that you have to get rid of and that can be a pain. >   Emma > > --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: molly as starter fish? > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 7:15 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52755	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/18/2011
Subject: Re: molly as starter fish?

Welcome i will be doing the same thing as u On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 6:30 PM EST nonstopmom888 wrote: >Hi Emma, > >thanks, today I looked at some guppies: they are really beautiful. > >Once my tank is cycled and the mollies are fine I think we might add some male guppies to them. For sure I want to avoid breeding... > >Thanks, >Nora > >--- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: >> >> Hi Nora >>    I used to have a few mollies they didn't work out that well for me in my 10 gal. I prefer male guppies they are very pretty and come in allot of different colors. >>    p.s.if you later on get guppies only get males if you get females and males you'll end up with a ton of babies that you have to get rid of and that can be a pain. >>   Emma >> >> --- On Sat, 12/17/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: >> >> From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> >> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: molly as starter fish? >> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >> Date: Saturday, December 17, 2011, 7:15 AM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52756	From: diana_brooksnj	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?

http://news.yahoo.com/guppy-newest-top-predator-125402322.html LOL Diana

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52757	From: Tamara Burnett	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Jack Demsey blue carriers

Hi, I am currently looking for a source to purchase female Jack Demsey cichlids which carry the recessive gene for the electric blue color variation. Does anyone here know of a place where such fish could be purchased? ~Tamara [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52758	From: Emma Caccia	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?

that makes no sense the don't have teeth --- On Mon, 12/19/11, diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> wrote: From: diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] The Guppy: Newest Top Predator? To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 12:36 PM   http://news.yahoo.com/guppy-newest-top-predator-125402322.html LOL Diana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52759	From: haecklers	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: Jack Demsey blue carriers

Look for people selling EB's on Aquabid - they often have the ones carrying the gene as well, tho you may have to get a few to be sure you get a female. Just send them a private email asking. I think half the sellers on there do as much business on side deals as what they put up for sale. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara Burnett" <tamara@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am currently looking for a source to purchase female Jack Demsey cichlids > which carry the recessive gene for the electric blue color variation. Does > anyone here know of a place where such fish could be purchased? > > > > ~Tamara > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52760	From: Tamara Burnett	Date: 12/19/2011
Subject: Re: Jack Demsey blue carriers

Thank you so much for this info!! Greatly appreciated. :-) -----Original Message----- From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of haecklers Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 5:49 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Jack Demsey blue carriers Look for people selling EB's on Aquabid - they often have the ones carrying the gene as well, tho you may have to get a few to be sure you get a female. Just send them a private email asking. I think half the sellers on there do as much business on side deals as what they put up for sale. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Tamara Burnett" <tamara@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I am currently looking for a source to purchase female Jack Demsey cichlids > which carry the recessive gene for the electric blue color variation. Does > anyone here know of a place where such fish could be purchased? > > > > ~Tamara > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page. Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52761	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: UPDATE>> Only tiger barbs getting Ill

So, after some wonderful advice from all of you, I did realize I had a fungus going on in my tank. My Gold Severum started to show signs of illness as well. I have been treating my tank with Pimafix and today is the seventh day of treatment. So far I have seen an improvement all across the board. My fish are doing well, and I am preparing to do a water change shortly. Thanks so much for being a great source of great advice!! Happy Holidays -Gail Salt Lake City, UT --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > I have a 20 gal freshwater tank and for some reason only my school of tiger barbs are getting sick. One has red sores by his side fins, another has a sore on his side. > However my gold Sevrum, ram and Cory catfish reflect no signs of illness. > I have started a dose of Melafix, I'm hoping its sufficient enough that I don't lose any fish. But I think I'll do a water change first. > Any suggestions? Causes? > Thanks > Gail > SLC, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52762	From: gailsugarpants	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! Gail Salt Lake City, UT

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52763	From: haecklers	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

I've had them about a year now. I like them. They're cool to watch when they're out and about. They do keep things clean. They cleaned off all the stonework in my cichild tank really well and also kept the walls really clean. They sift through the substrate eating bits of missed food too, preventing bacterial blooms from the food that falls down in there, so they pretty much eliminate the need to vacuum your substrate. They seem to die off if you don't have substrate for them to hide in. They repopulate pretty fast. They don't seem to eat plants or baby fish. Not sure about whether they eat fish eggs, tho, I've heard things both ways on that one. If you have a HOB filter the babies may get in and make it get noisy, meaning you'd have to remove the impeller and clean it out or put a sponge over the intake. If you have a sponge filter they shouldn't pose a problem at all. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > Gail > Salt Lake City, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52764	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

The best thing for Trumpet snails is fish that eat them! The tiny new born snails get into the impeller parts of the filters and into the sponges of the other filters. They tend to over run the tank and generally cause problems. Large Rams Horn snails propagate slower and are much easier to control, a much better choice in snails if you want them. Want a cleaner tank, Change more water more often and wipe the inside of the glass with a clean dry paper towel when the water level is down but the glass is still wet. Charles H >Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? >I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share >a positive/negative experience about these >little guys? >My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 >gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing >some to possibly help benefit the balance of my >tank. >BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful >and requires less mainteneance than my 20 >gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > >Gail Salt Lake City, UT -- }}<{{{¿> <*{{(((>{{ Change as much water as often as you can! Charles Harrison in St Louis http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ }}<{{{¿> }}<{{{¿>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52765	From: kbgwp	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: New member with crazy ideas

I recently lost all my aquariums and equipment in a fire and would like to restart. I have had aquariums off and on all my life. I have had everything from fish bowls to 55 gallon tanks as well as ponds. I also had a couple salt water tanks but found them to be a bit to much work as well as cost. What I did really like about the salt water was the variety of non-fish life in them (worms, snails, etc.) What I would like to do now is a fresh water version similar to the marine tanks. I don't even care if there are any fish in this tank. I would like to have snails, plants and a wide variety of "bugs". Basically a swamp tank. Since I have little to no money to spend on this set up, I plan to improvise a lot. I realise that this is not going to be the proper way to set up an aquarium and it will take a long time to get a stable environment established if that is even possible. Being cold here now, I will have until spring to plan this set up and collect the materials needed to get started. My thoughts are to use things from local ponds and streams for most of the contents like the substrate and natural decorations (driftwood, rocks, algae, snails, etc). At this time all I have is a 10 gallon aquarium to use but would consider getting or building a larger tank. Has anyone ever attempted something like this or is it just another bad idea? ...Brian in PA (USA)

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52766	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?

Actually, guppies do have teeth. All fish have teeth in some form or other, just are not always recognized as such because of the different forms they can take. In guppies they are not jagged sharp teeth like you would picture in a dog or cat, or even a shark... but instead they are like a bony plate with "bristles" on them, meant for chewing on algae and other plant life. While these are not what some people see as conventional teeth, they can, in some cases, cause a lot of damage if the guppy is fighting with another fish. They are more than capable of shredding the fins of another fish and in some instances with small fish or scaleless fish they can actually get small chunks of flesh out of them if they are persistent and trying. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Emma Caccia <horserider283@...> wrote: > > that makes no sense the don't have teeth > > > --- On Mon, 12/19/11, diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> wrote: > > From: diana_brooksnj <diana_brooks@...> > Subject: [AquaticLife] The Guppy: Newest Top Predator? > To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, December 19, 2011, 12:36 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >   > > > > > > > > > > http://news.yahoo.com/guppy-newest-top-predator-125402322.html > > > > LOL > > Diana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52767	From: joe t	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Winter Eating Woes??

Hi. I just had to share this one. I am always open to learning something, so I thought I would pass this along. I heard it as a bit of advise given to a customer at PetSmart. A gentlemen was inquiring as to why his fish were not eating. He told the salesperson that the fish were eating very well until a couple days ago. Now they have stopped eating or are eating very slowly. The man could not understand why. The tank is in the house. It has a heater and filter. The salesperson replied that the fish were probably in "winter mode". I have been raising fish for a long time, as the "steadies" to this site know. But, with the exception of fish outside in the cold, I never knew the fish inside the house in a warm tank would go into winter mode. I not only never knew it, I never experienced it either. My fish almost always have a good appetite. Your thoughts, please. joe t

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52768	From: haecklers	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas

I have a couple of "swamp" tanks and I love them! The first (5 gal) started with a soil tank per Walstad's instructions. I wanted it for shrimp so I included some mossy rocks from a local stream to seed it with daphnia and other assorted critters. I wound up with scuds, damselfly nymphs, and all sorts of littler things that went chugging and scooting around. It wound up with two kinds of snails, acute bladder snails and a very nice pink ramshorn. I did add some red cherry shrimp and they thrived in there. It was great for gazing into. The second (20 gal) was also a Walstad-type soil tank and I somehow wound up with both some sort of worms (tubifex??) and hydra. I let the plants go wild in there and it really does look like a jungle/swamp. I put some red cherry shrimp in there, my pea puffers, and I grow out baby fish in there. Because of all the assorted critters they grow like crazy with little input from me - I just add microworms once a day, and do weekly water changes. Some Photos: http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/ShrimpandGuppy.jpg http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/WholeDirtyTank.jpg It's good to use soil if you want it really natural, imho. It can support a lot of kinds of life. It's also good to have some emergent plants, to keep the quality of the water high. My favorite emergent plant is called Chinese Evergreen. They grow a LOT of roots underwater. I think for a fishless tank, smaller can be better. 10 gallons should be fine. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kbgwp" <kbgwp@...> wrote: > > I recently lost all my aquariums and equipment in a fire and would like to restart. I have had aquariums off and on all my life. I have had everything from fish bowls to 55 gallon tanks as well as ponds. I also had a couple salt water tanks but found them to be a bit to much work as well as cost. What I did really like about the salt water was the variety of non-fish life in them (worms, snails, etc.) What I would like to do now is a fresh water version similar to the marine tanks. I don't even care if there are any fish in this tank. I would like to have snails, plants and a wide variety of "bugs". Basically a swamp tank. Since I have little to no money to spend on this set up, I plan to improvise a lot. I realise that this is not going to be the proper way to set up an aquarium and it will take a long time to get a stable environment established if that is even possible. Being cold here now, I will have until spring to plan this set up and collect the materials needed to get started. My thoughts are to use things from local ponds and streams for most of the contents like the substrate and natural decorations (driftwood, rocks, algae, snails, etc). At this time all I have is a 10 gallon aquarium to use but would consider getting or building a larger tank. > > Has anyone ever attempted something like this or is it just another bad idea? > > ...Brian in PA (USA) >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52769	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: Winter Eating Woes??

Sounds like the salesperson just gave them an answer to make the customer go away, there is no "winter mode" for indoor fish. If the water were to cool down then yes, they may start acting differently but colder water doesn't stimulate fish all the same way, and even goldfish will eat in the winter if you feed them, you're not supposed to from what I understand. Amber On 12/20/2011 1:20 PM, joe t wrote: > > Hi. > > I just had to share this one. I am always open to learning something, > so I thought I would pass this along. I heard it as a bit of advise > given to a customer at PetSmart. > > A gentlemen was inquiring as to why his fish were not eating. He told > the salesperson that the fish were eating very well until a couple > days ago. Now they have stopped eating or are eating very slowly. The > man could not understand why. The tank is in the house. It has a > heater and filter. > > The salesperson replied that the fish were probably in "winter mode". > > I have been raising fish for a long time, as the "steadies" to this > site know. But, with the exception of fish outside in the cold, I > never knew the fish inside the house in a warm tank would go into > winter mode. I not only never knew it, I never experienced it either. > My fish almost always have a good appetite. > > Your thoughts, please. > > joe t > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52770	From: Dora Smith	Date: 12/20/2011
Subject: Re: The Guppy: Newest Top Predator?

OK, I missed it. Did they test aquarium guppies or wild guppies? Because aquarium guppies would be shaped by what’s in aquarium fish food, and wild guppies would have the metabolic makeup of top predators if they were top predators. Dora _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of diana_brooksnj Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 11:36 AM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] The Guppy: Newest Top Predator? http://news.yahoo.com/guppy-newest-top-predator-125402322.html LOL Diana [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52771	From: kbgwp	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas

Thanks for the reply. That sounds like exactly what I wanted. I hadn't thought of using it to grow baby fish. I figured fish would eat all the little bugs but baby fish would probably do great and not clean the tank out completely. ...Brian in PA (USA) --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > I have a couple of "swamp" tanks and I love them! > > The first (5 gal) started with a soil tank per Walstad's instructions. I wanted it for shrimp so I included some mossy rocks from a local stream to seed it with daphnia and other assorted critters. I wound up with scuds, damselfly nymphs, and all sorts of littler things that went chugging and scooting around. It wound up with two kinds of snails, acute bladder snails and a very nice pink ramshorn. I did add some red cherry shrimp and they thrived in there. It was great for gazing into. > > The second (20 gal) was also a Walstad-type soil tank and I somehow wound up with both some sort of worms (tubifex??) and hydra. I let the plants go wild in there and it really does look like a jungle/swamp. I put some red cherry shrimp in there, my pea puffers, and I grow out baby fish in there. Because of all the assorted critters they grow like crazy with little input from me - I just add microworms once a day, and do weekly water changes. > > Some Photos: http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/ShrimpandGuppy.jpg > http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/WholeDirtyTank.jpg > > It's good to use soil if you want it really natural, imho. It can support a lot of kinds of life. It's also good to have some emergent plants, to keep the quality of the water high. My favorite emergent plant is called Chinese Evergreen. They grow a LOT of roots underwater. > > I think for a fishless tank, smaller can be better. 10 gallons should be fine.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52772	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

I would have to disagree about rams horn snails being better than trumpet snails. Rams horn snails will eat some plants, they put out a massive amount of waste which can require extra water changes to keep the tank in good condition, and they are near impossible to get rid of once they are in there because they breed just as fast as the trumpet snails. Trumpets are not quite as dirty as the rams horns. I have been keeping both species of snails in my tanks for over 10 yrs now and must say I prefer the trumpet snails to the rams horns, although it can be just as difficult to get rid of the trumpet snails, I have not found a situation yet where I've wanted or needed to. In regards to eating fish eggs... rams horn snails will devour them and not all fish are so good at fending them off. I have yet to see the trumpet snails bother any fish eggs in my tanks, from angelfish to rainbow fish (meaning with and without parental fish supervision). In regards to the filter issue, both rams horn and trumpet snails will get into HOB filters, so this is something that should be checked regularly and cleaned out as needed. The big difference is that rams horn snails will lay eggs all over and inside of the filter whereas you don't have that issue with the trumpet snails. The only other thing I can think to mention is snail eating fish such as loaches and puffers prefer rams horn snails to trumpets. The trumpet snails shells are much harder than the rams horns and the fish can't seem to get them out of their shells. They also must taste bad because if you remove the shell for the fish they still turn away at the offer of trumpet snails, whereas the rams horn snails don't last long... they gobble them up quickly. Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > Gail > Salt Lake City, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52773	From: Bill	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

Dawn... great post! ________________________________ From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 3:58 PM Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?   I would have to disagree about rams horn snails being better than trumpet snails. Rams horn snails will eat some plants, they put out a massive amount of waste which can require extra water changes to keep the tank in good condition, and they are near impossible to get rid of once they are in there because they breed just as fast as the trumpet snails. Trumpets are not quite as dirty as the rams horns. I have been keeping both species of snails in my tanks for over 10 yrs now and must say I prefer the trumpet snails to the rams horns, although it can be just as difficult to get rid of the trumpet snails, I have not found a situation yet where I've wanted or needed to. In regards to eating fish eggs... rams horn snails will devour them and not all fish are so good at fending them off. I have yet to see the trumpet snails bother any fish eggs in my tanks, from angelfish to rainbow fish (meaning with and without parental fish supervision). In regards to the filter issue, both rams horn and trumpet snails will get into HOB filters, so this is something that should be checked regularly and cleaned out as needed. The big difference is that rams horn snails will lay eggs all over and inside of the filter whereas you don't have that issue with the trumpet snails. The only other thing I can think to mention is snail eating fish such as loaches and puffers prefer rams horn snails to trumpets. The trumpet snails shells are much harder than the rams horns and the fish can't seem to get them out of their shells. They also must taste bad because if you remove the shell for the fish they still turn away at the offer of trumpet snails, whereas the rams horn snails don't last long... they gobble them up quickly. Hope this helps. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > Gail > Salt Lake City, UT > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52774	From: Charles Harrison	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

Trumpet snails eat my Killifish eggs, Rams horned snails only clean up the BBS in the hatching containers and never touch the eggs. They do a perfect job of cleaning my Rainbow egg dishes as well. The trumpet snails eat my Rainbow eggs. A sponge filter in a tank with Rams horned snails only needs to be brushed off to remove the snails. The same filter with Trumpet snails sticks my hangs as I try to wash the filter in the sink. More often than not I have to throw away the sponges from the Trumpet snail tanks because I can't get them out of the material and the sponge is like a small hedge hog prickling with tiny spines. The over the side filter impellers clog with the tiny new born Trumpet snails. They start screaming in the middle of the night like some helpless animal as the snail shells grind away at the magnetic bearings. I was at Pet$mart last night getting dog food and stopped by their takes to see what new diseases they had available. I notices a few tanks on the filtration end of their system with a few of these small Live bearing Trumpet snails. I got to talk to an employee I have seen in there before about these tint critters in these few tanks, he said look down the line of tanks, they are all in the system and slowly they are all getting these little snails in there. It's beginning to clog our filters. I smiled and said: "You need a pound of Flubendazole to kill those things off before you have to replace everything. Bleach doesn't kill them. Charles H -- I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour.

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52775	From: Brigitte Cherubini	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas

I love the way that looks. I once had something similar. Everything in it was caught out in the ditch by me. Plants & fish. It was cool!  A friend of mine caught a darter in that same ditch. This was a long time ago, tho. ~Brigitte~ Mississippi Gulf Coast [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52776	From: haecklers	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas

It depends on what you have, the nymphs of dragonflies and damselflies will eat small baby fish, hydra will eat the smaller ones, too. But in a way that's kind of its own kind of cool. Survival of the fittest/fastest/smartest. The small baby fish do eat a lot of the other critters as they grow so you have to stay on top of things, but usually they don't eat ALL of them and the population comes back once you remove the fish. I tried a shrimp tank without fish and the shrimp went pale. I think they do better with some fish. There are some tiny ones you could look into - if you want local you can find tiny minnows in streams in the spring; otherwise the dwarf cories are really peaceful, or you could do pea puffers (my shrimp are still in that tank with them, tho they may be eating the babies), or rice fish. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "kbgwp" <kbgwp@...> wrote: > > Thanks for the reply. That sounds like exactly what I wanted. I hadn't > thought of using it to grow baby fish. I figured fish would eat all the > little bugs but baby fish would probably do great and not clean the tank > out completely. > > ...Brian in PA (USA) > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > I have a couple of "swamp" tanks and I love them! > > > > The first (5 gal) started with a soil tank per Walstad's instructions. > I wanted it for shrimp so I included some mossy rocks from a local > stream to seed it with daphnia and other assorted critters. I wound up > with scuds, damselfly nymphs, and all sorts of littler things that went > chugging and scooting around. It wound up with two kinds of snails, > acute bladder snails and a very nice pink ramshorn. I did add some red > cherry shrimp and they thrived in there. It was great for gazing into. > > > > The second (20 gal) was also a Walstad-type soil tank and I somehow > wound up with both some sort of worms (tubifex??) and hydra. I let the > plants go wild in there and it really does look like a jungle/swamp. I > put some red cherry shrimp in there, my pea puffers, and I grow out baby > fish in there. Because of all the assorted critters they grow like > crazy with little input from me - I just add microworms once a day, and > do weekly water changes. > > > > Some Photos: > http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/ShrimpandGuppy.jpg > > http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j339/Haecklers/WholeDirtyTank.jpg > > > > It's good to use soil if you want it really natural, imho. It can > support a lot of kinds of life. It's also good to have some emergent > plants, to keep the quality of the water high. My favorite emergent > plant is called Chinese Evergreen. They grow a LOT of roots underwater. > > > > I think for a fishless tank, smaller can be better. 10 gallons should > be fine. >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52777	From: sevenspringss@wmconnect.com	Date: 12/21/2011
Subject: Re: New member with crazy ideas

approve</HTML>

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52778	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

Rams horn snails... ugh! I started raising them in my 120 gallon tank, the only fish in there was an adult fancy goldfish. In the colder water the snails grow much larger than the ones kept in the tropical tank, but they also bred much faster. When I did my gravel vacs once/wk I had a mess because the snail egg sacs were so thick they clogged up my sink strainer over the drain. In my 90 gallon tropical tank the rams horns are the only "problem" and if I wasn't raising them to feed to my cichlids I would get rid of them completely by breaking down the tank and sterilizing the entire thing. Yes, it would need to be sterilized to eradicate them because even when the tank is dried out and wiped clean, those egg sacs get on everything, into every tiny space that a person can't reach... and once wet again, begin to hatch. I have had a much easier time getting rid of trumpet snails if/when I have wanted to, simply because they are live bearing. If I start out pulling out all of the larger snails that are of breeding capability eventually there is nothing left but small ones. If I continue to pull out the small ones eventually I get to the end. This isn't possible with rams horns. I am surprised to hear of the trumpet snails eating rainbow eggs, as I raised celebese rainbows in my 90 gallon and the only snails I had issues with eating the eggs were the rams horns who were into them immediately. Same thing with my spawning angels... never a problem with the trumpets but the rams horns are there as soon as the first eggs are laid and they devour the eggs so fast unless I am standing guard and knocking them off 24/7... which I have done more than once, only to find the rams horns also eating wigglers before they were able to go free swimming. While it is possible for any species of snail to eat fish eggs, I still have to say if there's a choice between those 2 species, the trumpet snails are the better option and easier to get rid of if so desired later. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > Gail > Salt Lake City, UT >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52779	From: Donna Ransome	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

I only seem to get MTS when I overfeed (thus my tank is dirty). Thus, they are not my favorite thing to see in my tank. _____ From: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of dawnshungryeyes4u2c Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 3:25 PM To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone? Rams horn snails... ugh! I started raising them in my 120 gallon tank, the only fish in there was an adult fancy goldfish. In the colder water the snails grow much larger than the ones kept in the tropical tank, but they also bred much faster. When I did my gravel vacs once/wk I had a mess because the snail egg sacs were so thick they clogged up my sink strainer over the drain. In my 90 gallon tropical tank the rams horns are the only "problem" and if I wasn't raising them to feed to my cichlids I would get rid of them completely by breaking down the tank and sterilizing the entire thing. Yes, it would need to be sterilized to eradicate them because even when the tank is dried out and wiped clean, those egg sacs get on everything, into every tiny space that a person can't reach... and once wet again, begin to hatch. I have had a much easier time getting rid of trumpet snails if/when I have wanted to, simply because they are live bearing. If I start out pulling out all of the larger snails that are of breeding capability eventually there is nothing left but small ones. If I continue to pull out the small ones eventually I get to the end. This isn't possible with rams horns. I am surprised to hear of the trumpet snails eating rainbow eggs, as I raised celebese rainbows in my 90 gallon and the only snails I had issues with eating the eggs were the rams horns who were into them immediately. Same thing with my spawning angels... never a problem with the trumpets but the rams horns are there as soon as the first eggs are laid and they devour the eggs so fast unless I am standing guard and knocking them off 24/7... which I have done more than once, only to find the rams horns also eating wigglers before they were able to go free swimming. While it is possible for any species of snail to eat fish eggs, I still have to say if there's a choice between those 2 species, the trumpet snails are the better option and easier to get rid of if so desired later. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AquaticLife%40yahoogroups.com> , "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@...> wrote: > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > Gail > Salt Lake City, UT > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52780	From: haecklers	Date: 12/22/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

There are a couple different kinds of ramshorns. One kind has a narrower shell, the babies stay out of the substrate (on plants, mostly), and these breed slowly, grow slowly, and don't eat plants. This kind can be pink/orange. The other kind seems to stay in the substrate during the day and comes out at night in full force. They eat plant roots and plants (especially vallisneria), sometimes voraciously. The babies are fatter, more round-looking and have black spots on their shells. These breed like crazy, kill/eat other snails (they killed my good ramshorns and also the acute bladder snails disappeared in those tanks), and are a nuisance. Because so much of the breeding/growing happens in the substrate you really have no idea how many you have until your plants start floating up or dying because they have no roots left. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Rams horn snails... ugh! I started raising them in my 120 gallon tank, the only fish in there was an adult fancy goldfish. In the colder water the snails grow much larger than the ones kept in the tropical tank, but they also bred much faster. When I did my gravel vacs once/wk I had a mess because the snail egg sacs were so thick they clogged up my sink strainer over the drain. > > In my 90 gallon tropical tank the rams horns are the only "problem" and if I wasn't raising them to feed to my cichlids I would get rid of them completely by breaking down the tank and sterilizing the entire thing. Yes, it would need to be sterilized to eradicate them because even when the tank is dried out and wiped clean, those egg sacs get on everything, into every tiny space that a person can't reach... and once wet again, begin to hatch. > > I have had a much easier time getting rid of trumpet snails if/when I have wanted to, simply because they are live bearing. If I start out pulling out all of the larger snails that are of breeding capability eventually there is nothing left but small ones. If I continue to pull out the small ones eventually I get to the end. This isn't possible with rams horns. > > I am surprised to hear of the trumpet snails eating rainbow eggs, as I raised celebese rainbows in my 90 gallon and the only snails I had issues with eating the eggs were the rams horns who were into them immediately. Same thing with my spawning angels... never a problem with the trumpets but the rams horns are there as soon as the first eggs are laid and they devour the eggs so fast unless I am standing guard and knocking them off 24/7... which I have done more than once, only to find the rams horns also eating wigglers before they were able to go free swimming. > > While it is possible for any species of snail to eat fish eggs, I still have to say if there's a choice between those 2 species, the trumpet snails are the better option and easier to get rid of if so desired later. > > Dawn > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@> wrote: > > > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > > > Gail > > Salt Lake City, UT > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52781	From: Elijah Salazar	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Cambarellus patzcuarensis (mexican dwarf crayfish) heeeeelp

i bought a pair of cpo's and my female is now gravid i need help to know how to keep the babies safe

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52782	From: William M	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Re: Cambarellus patzcuarensis (mexican dwarf crayfish) heeeeelp

Most dwarf crawfish will not eat their own young so if you put her in a tank that does not have fish you should be good. I have had the regular dwarf crawfish in with snails and shrimp with out loss of any babies. Right now I have one pair of the regular dwarf crawfish and waiting for them to mate. They are in a 20 gallon tank by themselves right now but I plan on adding some trumpet snails and maybe shrimp. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Elijah Salazar" <elijah258@...> wrote: > > i bought a pair of cpo's and my female is now gravid i need help to know how to keep the babies safe >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52783	From: William M	Date: 12/24/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

There is actually another kind of ramshorn (Columbian) snail which is much larger and related to apple snails. It is like a lawnmower in an aquarium. Some have what I describe as "racing stripes" around the shell, whereas a few are solid color. They can get to be two inches in diameter. I have had them before but do not remember them as hiding under the gravel. They do lay their eggs u;nderwater and the egg masses are rather large. It might be another kind of rams horn snail that you are thinking about. I have also had a few ramshorn snails that were tiny in size, less than 1/8 of an inch in diameter and I tried to get them to grow but was not able to keep them going. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@...> wrote: > > There are a couple different kinds of ramshorns. One kind has a narrower shell, the babies stay out of the substrate (on plants, mostly), and these breed slowly, grow slowly, and don't eat plants. This kind can be pink/orange. > > The other kind seems to stay in the substrate during the day and comes out at night in full force. They eat plant roots and plants (especially vallisneria), sometimes voraciously. The babies are fatter, more round-looking and have black spots on their shells. These breed like crazy, kill/eat other snails (they killed my good ramshorns and also the acute bladder snails disappeared in those tanks), and are a nuisance. Because so much of the breeding/growing happens in the substrate you really have no idea how many you have until your plants start floating up or dying because they have no roots left. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Rams horn snails... ugh! I started raising them in my 120 gallon tank, the only fish in there was an adult fancy goldfish. In the colder water the snails grow much larger than the ones kept in the tropical tank, but they also bred much faster. When I did my gravel vacs once/wk I had a mess because the snail egg sacs were so thick they clogged up my sink strainer over the drain. > > > > In my 90 gallon tropical tank the rams horns are the only "problem" and if I wasn't raising them to feed to my cichlids I would get rid of them completely by breaking down the tank and sterilizing the entire thing. Yes, it would need to be sterilized to eradicate them because even when the tank is dried out and wiped clean, those egg sacs get on everything, into every tiny space that a person can't reach... and once wet again, begin to hatch. > > > > I have had a much easier time getting rid of trumpet snails if/when I have wanted to, simply because they are live bearing. If I start out pulling out all of the larger snails that are of breeding capability eventually there is nothing left but small ones. If I continue to pull out the small ones eventually I get to the end. This isn't possible with rams horns. > > > > I am surprised to hear of the trumpet snails eating rainbow eggs, as I raised celebese rainbows in my 90 gallon and the only snails I had issues with eating the eggs were the rams horns who were into them immediately. Same thing with my spawning angels... never a problem with the trumpets but the rams horns are there as soon as the first eggs are laid and they devour the eggs so fast unless I am standing guard and knocking them off 24/7... which I have done more than once, only to find the rams horns also eating wigglers before they were able to go free swimming. > > > > While it is possible for any species of snail to eat fish eggs, I still have to say if there's a choice between those 2 species, the trumpet snails are the better option and easier to get rid of if so desired later. > > > > Dawn > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@> wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > > > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > > > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > > > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > > > > > Gail > > > Salt Lake City, UT > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52784	From: haecklers	Date: 12/26/2011
Subject: Re: Trumpet Snails Anyone?

Columbian Ramshorns have been identified as an invasive species and are illegal to sell in most states now, probably for good reason. There are other kinds of ramshorn snails that are really cool but almost never found in the hobby. One kind has a very flat shell, like it's been squashed. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > There is actually another kind of ramshorn (Columbian) snail which is much larger and related to apple snails. It is like a lawnmower in an aquarium. Some have what I describe as "racing stripes" around the shell, whereas a few are solid color. They can get to be two inches in diameter. I have had them before but do not remember them as hiding under the gravel. They do lay their eggs u;nderwater and the egg masses are rather large. It might be another kind of rams horn snail that you are thinking about. I have also had a few ramshorn snails that were tiny in size, less than 1/8 of an inch in diameter and I tried to get them to grow but was not able to keep them going. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "haecklers" <haecklers@> wrote: > > > > There are a couple different kinds of ramshorns. One kind has a narrower shell, the babies stay out of the substrate (on plants, mostly), and these breed slowly, grow slowly, and don't eat plants. This kind can be pink/orange. > > > > The other kind seems to stay in the substrate during the day and comes out at night in full force. They eat plant roots and plants (especially vallisneria), sometimes voraciously. The babies are fatter, more round-looking and have black spots on their shells. These breed like crazy, kill/eat other snails (they killed my good ramshorns and also the acute bladder snails disappeared in those tanks), and are a nuisance. Because so much of the breeding/growing happens in the substrate you really have no idea how many you have until your plants start floating up or dying because they have no roots left. > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > > > Rams horn snails... ugh! I started raising them in my 120 gallon tank, the only fish in there was an adult fancy goldfish. In the colder water the snails grow much larger than the ones kept in the tropical tank, but they also bred much faster. When I did my gravel vacs once/wk I had a mess because the snail egg sacs were so thick they clogged up my sink strainer over the drain. > > > > > > In my 90 gallon tropical tank the rams horns are the only "problem" and if I wasn't raising them to feed to my cichlids I would get rid of them completely by breaking down the tank and sterilizing the entire thing. Yes, it would need to be sterilized to eradicate them because even when the tank is dried out and wiped clean, those egg sacs get on everything, into every tiny space that a person can't reach... and once wet again, begin to hatch. > > > > > > I have had a much easier time getting rid of trumpet snails if/when I have wanted to, simply because they are live bearing. If I start out pulling out all of the larger snails that are of breeding capability eventually there is nothing left but small ones. If I continue to pull out the small ones eventually I get to the end. This isn't possible with rams horns. > > > > > > I am surprised to hear of the trumpet snails eating rainbow eggs, as I raised celebese rainbows in my 90 gallon and the only snails I had issues with eating the eggs were the rams horns who were into them immediately. Same thing with my spawning angels... never a problem with the trumpets but the rams horns are there as soon as the first eggs are laid and they devour the eggs so fast unless I am standing guard and knocking them off 24/7... which I have done more than once, only to find the rams horns also eating wigglers before they were able to go free swimming. > > > > > > While it is possible for any species of snail to eat fish eggs, I still have to say if there's a choice between those 2 species, the trumpet snails are the better option and easier to get rid of if so desired later. > > > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "gailsugarpants" <gail.johnson2@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Does anyone here have Trumpet snails? > > > > I am considering adopting some. Can anyone share a positive/negative experience about these little guys? > > > > My friend has a copious amount of them in his 60 gallon and I'm thinking I want to try stealing some to possibly help benefit the balance of my tank. > > > > BTW his 60 is always super clean and beautiful and requires less mainteneance than my 20 gallon. And yes I am a bit jealous! > > > > > > > > Gail > > > > Salt Lake City, UT > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52785	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Hi, I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? Thanks, Nora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52786	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

You are correct, the tank will still cycle while you're doing water changes. DO NOT stop doing them or you will poison your fish with ammonia poisoning and quickly kill them all. Prime is a good (expensive) de-chlorinator, in your case it would be a good idea to use as it neutralizes ammonia as well as chlorine/chloramines and makes it harmless to the fish, but still edible by your nitrifying bacteria that is just starting to grow. If you have well water then you wouldn't likely need to use this product, but if you're on city water then definitely use it, especially if your water has heavy metals in it as well as chloramines. Keep your eye on your ammonia levels and continue to do your water changes, you could even do them daily and not harm the cycling process. Cycling can tank a long time, so make sure to remember this and be patient. It can take around 6 weeks (even more) for the cycle to fully finish. What is your pH level? Amber On 12/27/2011 1:57 PM, nonstopmom888 wrote: > > Hi, > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium > that I started new 10 days ago. > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia > and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The > ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop > today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and > just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for > some days or low levels for a longer time? > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue > water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels > down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many > opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals > easier on the fish? > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and > affecting them? > > Thanks, > Nora > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52787	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/27/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Hi Amber, thanks for the info! My ph is around 8, and the water is hard. I used NovaAquaPlus water conditioner until now with every change (1/3 of the water approx. of the tank) for the city water for the Cl and to improve the slime coating of the fish (and added an adequate amount of salt again). I will look for Prime and see if I can get it. I probably will increase the changes as well. Thanks a lot, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Amber Berglund <arberglund@...> wrote: > > You are correct, the tank will still cycle while you're doing water > changes. DO NOT stop doing them or you will poison your fish with > ammonia poisoning and quickly kill them all. > Prime is a good (expensive) de-chlorinator, in your case it would be a > good idea to use as it neutralizes ammonia as well as > chlorine/chloramines and makes it harmless to the fish, but still edible > by your nitrifying bacteria that is just starting to grow. If you have > well water then you wouldn't likely need to use this product, but if > you're on city water then definitely use it, especially if your water > has heavy metals in it as well as chloramines. > Keep your eye on your ammonia levels and continue to do your water > changes, you could even do them daily and not harm the cycling process. > Cycling can tank a long time, so make sure to remember this and be > patient. It can take around 6 weeks (even more) for the cycle to fully > finish. > > What is your pH level? > > Amber > > > On 12/27/2011 1:57 PM, nonstopmom888 wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium > > that I started new 10 days ago. > > > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia > > and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The > > ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop > > today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and > > just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for > > some days or low levels for a longer time? > > > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue > > water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels > > down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many > > opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals > > easier on the fish? > > > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and > > affecting them? > > > > Thanks, > > Nora > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52788	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

I would like to add to Amber's great advice and warn you not to change too much water at any given time, as this can and will prevent the tank from completing the cycle. Small frequent changes are the way to go for your situation. Do not gravel vac during the cycling and if possible, avoid changing the filter media, too. These are the 2 places where the majority of your bacteria culture will grow, which is what you need to cycle the tank. To stop the water changes as the store suggested would only do as Amber suggested... leave you with a tank full of dead fish, thus the store makes more money when you come back to buy more fish. Stores like that make me sick! Also, keep your feedings light during the cycling. This will help keep the waste levels as minimal as possible. Be sure the fish can completely eat ALL of the food you offer them within 1 minute and only once/day until cycling is complete. They won't starve and this will eliminate any food from getting down to the gravel where it will quickly break down and add to your ammonia content in the water. If you see food making it to the gravel then cut down the amount of food you are offering them. Once the tank is stable and fully cycled you can experiment a little more with how much and how often you desire to feed them (some people prefer to feed smaller amounts multiple times each day) but in a safer way. Your current 30% water changes at a time should be more than enough to keep the tank in somewhat safe conditions and still allow the cycle to eventually complete itself if you are patient. To do more than 30% at a time risks holding up the cycle... so stick to what you are doing as long as the fish appear to be doing well. Watch for change in appetite, change in color, change in behavior & activity level of the fish as signs that something is affecting them enough to warrant more drastic measures during cycling. Should you need to change more water it is safer to increase to daily changes of the same amount each day rather than to increase the amount at the same rate of 3 times/wk. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > Thanks, > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52789	From: bill 1433	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

And one last point?  Try NOT to change out or clean any filters on the same day that you are doing PWC's.  You will find that the small water changes that Dawn just mentioned plus cleaning the filter on another day, will greatly help to stabilize the tank quicker and with much less stress to the fish. Changing to much of anything will stress the fish. Stressing the fish equal's dead fish! If you taking it easy so will the fish. Enjoy!   bill in pa --- On Wed, 12/28/11, dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> Subject: [AquaticLife] Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011, 8:02 AM I would like to add to Amber's great advice and warn you not to change too much water at any given time, as this can and will prevent the tank from completing the cycle.  Small frequent changes are the way to go for your situation.  Do not gravel vac during the cycling and if possible, avoid changing the filter media, too.  These are the 2 places where the majority of your bacteria culture will grow, which is what you need to cycle the tank.  To stop the water changes as the store suggested would only do as Amber suggested... leave you with a tank full of dead fish, thus the store makes more money when you come back to buy more fish.  Stores like that make me sick! Also, keep your feedings light during the cycling.  This will help keep the waste levels as minimal as possible.  Be sure the fish can completely eat ALL of the food you offer them within 1 minute and only once/day until cycling is complete.  They won't starve and this will eliminate any food from getting down to the gravel where it will quickly break down and add to your ammonia content in the water.  If you see food making it to the gravel then cut down the amount of food you are offering them.  Once the tank is stable and fully cycled you can experiment a little more with how much and how often you desire to feed them (some people prefer to feed smaller amounts multiple times each day) but in a safer way. Your current 30% water changes at a time should be more than enough to keep the tank in somewhat safe conditions and still allow the cycle to eventually complete itself if you are patient.  To do more than 30% at a time risks holding up the cycle... so stick to what you are doing as long as the fish appear to be doing well. Watch for change in appetite, change in color, change in behavior & activity level of the fish as signs that something is affecting them enough to warrant more drastic measures during cycling.  Should you need to change more water it is safer to increase to daily changes of the same amount each day rather than to increase the amount at the same rate of 3 times/wk.    Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > Thanks, > Nora > ------------------------------------ AquaticLife · A great way to share experience & ask ?s Please, DELETE this line and EVERYTHING below it when replying, Thank You. ·´¯`·.¸¸.><((((º>.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸><((((º> ¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..><((((º> PLEASE, when you REPLY to a post, DELETE all TEXT that is NOT important to the reply & if CHANGING the TOPIC of the original message MODIFY the SUBJECT LINE -> i.e. "new subject (was re: old subject)" <- <º((((><.·´¯`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸<º((((><¸.·´¯`·.¸. , .·´¯`·..<º((((><·´¯`·.¸¸. We Thank You in Advance for Your HELP in this matter. If you do not want all of the groups emails, instead of unsubscribing, you can change your delivery option by clicking on "Edit My Membership" on the home page.  Or e-mail aquaticlife-digest@yahoogroups.com to receive the digest, which includes up to 25 posts at a time in a single email Or email aquaticlife-nomail@yahoogroups.com for the No E-Mail option where you will still be able to read messages on the group and post replies. Or email aquaticlife-normal@yahoogroups.com to receive individual e-mails.Yahoo! Groups Links

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52790	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Trimming Plants

While doing PWS's on some tanks tonight I noticed that my ten gallon planted tank (with five Neon's in it) has some overgrown plants reaching the hood. As I have always had tall tanks, I haven't noticed this before. Do I just trim the excess plants and float it on top of the water hoping for it to root? Or do I plant the cuttings into the gravel/sand mixture? Funny, my plants have always grown bushy but never tall like this. Ten gallon tank, low light, sponge filter, no heater and yet the plants are growing better than I have in my other tanks I have some algea growing around the plants that I keep pulling out - no bottom feeder in the tank. I did not note down my API readings, but they all appeared fine. Fish and plants appear to be doing well. Tank has been set up and running for about six or seven months now. I had a HOB on the tank originally with a filter pad from a long existing tank but the HOB went out so I put a sponge filter in there about four months ago. Any advice would be appreciated! Paula in Monroe, Michigan

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52791	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Plants

The plants are probably stretching (growing taller to reach the light). What kind of plants are they? Amber On 12/28/2011 5:04 PM, PAULA BROWN wrote: > > While doing PWS's on some tanks tonight I noticed that my ten gallon > planted tank (with five Neon's in it) has some overgrown plants > reaching the hood. As I have always had tall tanks, I haven't noticed > this before. Do I just trim the excess plants and float it on top of > the water hoping for it to root? Or do I plant the cuttings into the > gravel/sand mixture? Funny, my plants have always grown bushy but > never tall like this. Ten gallon tank, low light, sponge filter, no > heater and yet the plants are growing better than I have in my other > tanks I have some algea growing around the plants that I keep pulling > out - no bottom feeder in the tank. I did not note down my API > readings, but they all appeared fine. Fish and plants appear to be > doing well. Tank has been set up and running for about six or seven > months now. I had a HOB on the tank originally with a filter pad from > a long existing tank but the HOB went out so I put a sponge filter in > there about four months ago. Any advice would be appreciated! > > Paula in Monroe, Michigan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52792	From: Jamie arthur	Date: 12/28/2011
Subject: Rehoming goldfish

I need to rehome some goldfish, if anyone is near me by Ft Lee, VA area.   There are 7, son  is not to happy but I hope to place atleast  4. Some are about 6 inches best guess. White, gold, gold & white.  I have them in a  75, but clearly hoping to get to spring with them.   Not going to happen, hoping with the milder winter maybe someone will like for a pond. ty if your are interested Please respond. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52793	From: PAULA BROWN	Date: 12/29/2011
Subject: Trimming Plants

Amber asked: "The plants are probably stretching (growing taller to reach the light). What kind of plants are they?" I am a bad plant person - I buy ones that appeal to me, without researching all of their needs, and forgetting their names! I know I have some swords, some "onion" type plants, some kind of ferns (those are the ones really growing tall), and some grass like looking plants. Sorry, I know that is not a lot of help! Paula in Monroe, Michigan

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52794	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/29/2011
Subject: Re: Trimming Plants

Are the fern looking ones growing some "baby" looking ferns? If there's a spot higher up closer to the light that looks like it's growing roots then just trim off a portion with the roots and replant it in another tank (or the same tank if you want). Without knowing what kind of plant you have it's hard to suggest how to trim them specifically. The grass like plants you can just cut the top and make them shorter, same with the onion type plants. The swords will grow babies with their own roots, and you can just cut off one of the baby plants and plant them elsewhere. Hope this helps :) Amber On 12/29/2011 1:14 PM, PAULA BROWN wrote: > > Amber asked: "The plants are probably stretching (growing taller to > reach the light). > What kind of plants are they?" > > I am a bad plant person - I buy ones that appeal to me, without > researching all of their needs, and forgetting their names! I know I > have some swords, some "onion" type plants, some kind of ferns (those > are the ones really growing tall), and some grass like looking plants. > Sorry, I know that is not a lot of help! > > Paula in Monroe, Michigan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52795	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Hi, I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? Thanks for help, Nora

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52796	From: Ray	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Hi Nora, Prime was formulated as a water conditioner to break the chlorine -- ammonia bond of chloramine, and to further convert the resultant ammonia into harmless ammonium. As far as I know, any inference of it addressing the toxicity of nitrite is still vwery controversial. Even while SeaChem (the producers of Prime) has received numerous reports from the hobbyist world that this product had reduced the toxicity of nitrite build-up when used in excessive dosages, Seachem has not done a study on this claim themselves. I would not rely on Prime to reduce your nitrite's toxicity, even though this is one of the best water conditioners on the market -- but if it appears to work for you towards this end, remember that these reports have all stated that it appears to address the nitrite issue especially when used in higher doses. As for whether your nitrite tests will still show positive for this waste product when using Prime, I would believe so, since even if it does remove some nitrite, it is not going to remove it all. When testing for ammonia while using Prime, your test results will show a definite Total Ammonia reading even though it's been converted to ammonia. A "Total Ammonia" reading is the result of the combined Ammonia and Ammonium in your water. Except for very expensive laboratory test kits, there are no ammonia test kits in the aquarium hobby that are designed to test for Free Ammonia only -- the part of the Total Ammonia that is dangerous and the part of chloramine that can be toxic before being converted to ammonium by a water conditioner. Please know that when cycling a tank, the ammonia will spike first at somewhere around 10 days (or abit more) into the cycle. Then, after an additional 10 days (or a bit more), the nitrite will then spike to its highest level before gradually coming down. Depending upon how long you're into this cycle, you may yet experience a tendency for higher elevations of nitrite. I would increase PWC's as necessary and would also increase the amount of Prime being used at those time just to take advantage of any possible benefits of this product that can result in a decrease of nitrite's toxic effects. It's possible that Prime may convert some of this Nitrite into Nitrogen and maybe even oxidize some of it into nitrate -- even if not proven -- although you'd need to use your separate nitrate test kit to see any increase at this end. I know of no other "nontoxic forms" of nitrite that can be found in the aquarium. Nitrate, just as any other organic waste product being developed, is easily removed via PWC's, and additionally with this waste product, with live plants although this is a slower process. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > Thanks for help, > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52797	From: Ray	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Nora, As Amber has told you, don't stop doing PWC's, and as Dawn has said, don't change too much at any one time. It's better to change 1.5 gallons every day than 3 gallons every other day. Still, depending on your ammonia and nitrite readings, you will have to change whatever amount of water it takes every day to keep these organic waste product levels from reaching levels that would be toxic to your fishes -- even though changing water will extend the cycling time -- and here I'm more concerned about your nitrite levels. This is yet another reason for not cycling a tank with fish in it, but it's too late to enter this part into the scenario since you already have them. I'm reminded here that you're just a little past 10 days into the cycle, at which time the ammonia generally spikes. You can expect your nitrite to climb higher than what it reads now if you don't make larger PWC's every day; keep monitoring it. A nitrite level of 5.0 ppm will be lethal to all your fishes, regardless of pH or temperature. In all I've read from you, I haven't seen you mention what you keep the temperature of the tank at. While this is a lessor factor than pH when considering how toxic any ammonia or nitrite might be, it still enters into the picture and can be a deciding factor on just how toxic these DOS's (Dissolved Organic Solids) ultimately become. Noticed your pH is 8.0 -- BUT, you need to make sure this is an accurate reading when giving this parameter to us, and not just something "close," as this is what we'll need in knowing how to advise you further. That your fishes seemingly aren't suffering, would indicate to me that your pH might be somewhat lower, but I have no way of knowing this. That you added, and are maintaining, salt since the very beginning has given your fishes a great benefit in them remaining relatively free from the toxic effects of ammonia, and can be slightly helpful with nitrite problems, although this compound (salt) will not fully address this latter problem. You should see the ammonia level start to go down of its own accord within a few days, as a part of the nitrifying bacteria converting this product becoming fully established in the cycle -- but you'll still need to do enough PWC's to keep the nitrite down. Getting back to the ammonia, while no amount of it is any good for your fishes (it impacts a stress on them), dropping the temperature of the water will go a long way in keeping this ammonia from becoming lethal at your pH 8.0, if not using Prime. Glad to see that you invested in this fine water conditioner. At pH 8.0, 1.0 ppm of ammonia is lethal to many different species of fishes at only 62 o, so you salt is obviously doing its job in preventing this from happening, as well too is the Prime helping with this issue. Note, that at pH 7.8, this same 1.00 ppm of ammonia doesn't become toxic until reaching 73 o, so it's very important to get as accurate a pH reading as you can determine. Still at the pH of 8.0 though, a much lower 0.5 ppm ammonia becomes lethal at 80 o (and toxic at 68 o). Also, at this same pH, a level of 0.25 ammonia does not become lethal, nor does it even become toxic, even at 80 o or more. The Prime will ensure that any Free Ammonia will not exist, but even ammonium, as relatively harmless as it is to fish, will exert some stress on them, which is why it's best to keep the ammonia (ammonium) reading down at all times during a tank cycling. To answer your question, it's much better on the fish to keep toxic levels down at all times, even though this means to stretch out the cycle. Maintaining really high levels of ammonia and nitrite, even for just a very short period, is extremely dangerous to fishes as there can reach a point when they become lethal if only at that level for an hour. Also, nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, so it's something you need to keep at a minimum, and drop the temperature somewhat during this period to help your fishes get through it. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > Thanks, > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52798	From: dawnshungryeyes4u2c	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Nora, If I may add to the great info that Ray has offered you... if you are using test strips instead of liquid test kits you need to know that they are well known for giving inaccurate readings, which can be very dangerous to your fish... especially under the kinds of circumstances you are dealing with. I would urge you to purchase liquid test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH rather than relying on the test strips. Any test kit that is inaccurate is a waste of money, as false readings are of no help to you or your fish. API makes a wonderful master kit that includes all of the needed tests and it is reasonably priced. If your local pet store doesn't carry it then it can easily be purchased online. If you need links to find it online please let us know, as many of us regularly purchase them this way. Dawn --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi, > > I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > Thanks for help, > Nora >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52799	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Hi Dawn, thanks for the info regarding test kits! I was not too happy with the stripes because it was really hard to determine how much I was reading. I will look for the API kit... Thanks, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@...> wrote: > > Nora, If I may add to the great info that Ray has offered you... if you are using test strips instead of liquid test kits you need to know that they are well known for giving inaccurate readings, which can be very dangerous to your fish... especially under the kinds of circumstances you are dealing with. I would urge you to purchase liquid test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH rather than relying on the test strips. Any test kit that is inaccurate is a waste of money, as false readings are of no help to you or your fish. > API makes a wonderful master kit that includes all of the needed tests and it is reasonably priced. If your local pet store doesn't carry it then it can easily be purchased online. If you need links to find it online please let us know, as many of us regularly purchase them this way. > > Dawn > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > > > My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > > > I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > > > Thanks for help, > > Nora > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52800	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Hi Ray, thanks for all the info! It helps a lot to get more detailed information than just having to guess. I was hoping with Prime I have found the miracle solution but it seems it is not that easy.... My ammonia readings were 0 or very low (with the stripes it is hard to say) the last two times so it seems my cycle works quite fast. Maybe the bacteria I added in the beginning were helping. On the other hand: I had added one time a tablet against ammonia so I wonder if that affects the readings? I did two water changes in the meantime so I thought I would have measured something nevertheless if it was there... In any case I will continue the PWC's daily and add Prime and hope it will work out. Thanks again, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Nora, > > As Amber has told you, don't stop doing PWC's, and as Dawn has said, don't change too much at any one time. It's better to change 1.5 gallons every day than 3 gallons every other day. Still, depending on your ammonia and nitrite readings, you will have to change whatever amount of water it takes every day to keep these organic waste product levels from reaching levels that would be toxic to your fishes -- even though changing water will extend the cycling time -- and here I'm more concerned about your nitrite levels. This is yet another reason for not cycling a tank with fish in it, but it's too late to enter this part into the scenario since you already have them. > > I'm reminded here that you're just a little past 10 days into the cycle, at which time the ammonia generally spikes. You can expect your nitrite to climb higher than what it reads now if you don't make larger PWC's every day; keep monitoring it. A nitrite level of 5.0 ppm will be lethal to all your fishes, regardless of pH or temperature. > > In all I've read from you, I haven't seen you mention what you keep the temperature of the tank at. While this is a lessor factor than pH when considering how toxic any ammonia or nitrite might be, it still enters into the picture and can be a deciding factor on just how toxic these DOS's (Dissolved Organic Solids) ultimately become. Noticed your pH is 8.0 -- BUT, you need to make sure this is an accurate reading when giving this parameter to us, and not just something "close," as this is what we'll need in knowing how to advise you further. That your fishes seemingly aren't suffering, would indicate to me that your pH might be somewhat lower, but I have no way of knowing this. That you added, and are maintaining, salt since the very beginning has given your fishes a great benefit in them remaining relatively free from the toxic effects of ammonia, and can be slightly helpful with nitrite problems, although this compound (salt) will not fully address this latter problem. > > You should see the ammonia level start to go down of its own accord within a few days, as a part of the nitrifying bacteria converting this product becoming fully established in the cycle -- but you'll still need to do enough PWC's to keep the nitrite down. Getting back to the ammonia, while no amount of it is any good for your fishes (it impacts a stress on them), dropping the temperature of the water will go a long way in keeping this ammonia from becoming lethal at your pH 8.0, if not using Prime. Glad to see that you invested in this fine water conditioner. > > At pH 8.0, 1.0 ppm of ammonia is lethal to many different species of fishes at only 62 o, so you salt is obviously doing its job in preventing this from happening, as well too is the Prime helping with this issue. Note, that at pH 7.8, this same 1.00 ppm of ammonia doesn't become toxic until reaching 73 o, so it's very important to get as accurate a pH reading as you can determine. Still at the pH of 8.0 though, a much lower 0.5 ppm ammonia becomes lethal at 80 o (and toxic at 68 o). Also, at this same pH, a level of 0.25 ammonia does not become lethal, nor does it even become toxic, even at 80 o or more. The Prime will ensure that any Free Ammonia will not exist, but even ammonium, as relatively harmless as it is to fish, will exert some stress on them, which is why it's best to keep the ammonia (ammonium) reading down at all times during a tank cycling. To answer your question, it's much better on the fish to keep toxic levels down at all times, even though this means to stretch out the cycle. Maintaining really high levels of ammonia and nitrite, even for just a very short period, is extremely dangerous to fishes as there can reach a point when they become lethal if only at that level for an hour. Also, nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, so it's something you need to keep at a minimum, and drop the temperature somewhat during this period to help your fishes get through it. > > Ray > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > > > Thanks, > > Nora > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52801	From: Grady Ferguson	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

have you checked the water your putting in the tank. >________________________________ > From: nonstopmom888 <ehebens@...> >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:58 AM >Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? > > >  >Hi, > >I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > >My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > >I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > >Thanks for help, >Nora > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52802	From: William M	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Many local fish stores wil test your water for free or very low cost. If you take a sample of water in a clean glass bottle, they should be able to check it for you. Ask them for mumbers and not just that is is OK. If they use the liquid test kits, make sure that they do not cover the vial with thier finger as the acids on their skin may cause a false reading. Also make sure that they rinse the vial in the sink and not dump the tested water into any aquarium that has fish in it as these may harm the fish, I am sure that they are not good for the fish. Yes I agree that testing yor tap water is a good idea. Make sure to out gass it by letting it set for a day so that it can change to what it will become in the aquarium, some water companies will add things that will change the water to bvasic and when it hits the air, it wil change back to more nutral or even acid. They do this so that it does not corode the water pipes and cause costly leaks in the water pipes. I used to work for a water department. --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Grady Ferguson <davidsson70@...> wrote: > > have you checked the water your putting in the tank. > > > >________________________________ > > From: nonstopmom888 <ehebens@...> > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:58 AM > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? > > > > > >  > >Hi, > > > >I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > > >My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > > >I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > > >Thanks for help, > >Nora > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52803	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/30/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

In the early beginning I had checked the tap water and it had neither ammonia nor nitrite as far as I remember... But I will check again after letting it stand for a while! Thanks, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > Many local fish stores wil test your water for free or very low cost. If you take a sample of water in a clean glass bottle, they should be able to check it for you. Ask them for mumbers and not just that is is OK. If they use the liquid test kits, make sure that they do not cover the vial with thier finger as the acids on their skin may cause a false reading. Also make sure that they rinse the vial in the sink and not dump the tested water into any aquarium that has fish in it as these may harm the fish, I am sure that they are not good for the fish. Yes I agree that testing yor tap water is a good idea. Make sure to out gass it by letting it set for a day so that it can change to what it will become in the aquarium, some water companies will add things that will change the water to bvasic and when it hits the air, it wil change back to more nutral or even acid. They do this so that it does not corode the water pipes and cause costly leaks in the water pipes. I used to work for a water department. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Grady Ferguson <davidsson70@> wrote: > > > > have you checked the water your putting in the tank. > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: nonstopmom888 <ehebens@> > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:58 AM > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? > > > > > > > > >  > > >Hi, > > > > > >I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > > > > >My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > > > > >I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > > > > >Thanks for help, > > >Nora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52804	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? - about fish stores...

Hi again, I forgot to mention: the fish store from which I got the fish ... I finally realized how useless it is to get any advice or info from them! (I am just angry if I think about them...) Last time I brought them a water sample and told them I cycle the tank right now and want to compare if I read my stripes correctly. They told me it is useless to test my water since I am cycling right now and everything is changing! I had to convince them to give me at least an ammonia reading... That is the same shop that told me not to do any water changes and to not touch the tank for at least 6 weeks (with the fish in it). (Besides that they gave me a female molly instead of a male despite I pointed out several times that it is really important to me to get the right gender. Even as a beginner I figured finally out I got a female after a few days and exchanged it for a different fish) At another store another sales person (where I bought my beginner tank) did not even mention once that an aquarium has to be cycled... Right now I am just glad there is the internet :) So thanks again for all the advice!! Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "William M" <dreammaker2623@...> wrote: > > Many local fish stores wil test your water for free or very low cost. If you take a sample of water in a clean glass bottle, they should be able to check it for you. Ask them for mumbers and not just that is is OK. If they use the liquid test kits, make sure that they do not cover the vial with thier finger as the acids on their skin may cause a false reading. Also make sure that they rinse the vial in the sink and not dump the tested water into any aquarium that has fish in it as these may harm the fish, I am sure that they are not good for the fish. Yes I agree that testing yor tap water is a good idea. Make sure to out gass it by letting it set for a day so that it can change to what it will become in the aquarium, some water companies will add things that will change the water to bvasic and when it hits the air, it wil change back to more nutral or even acid. They do this so that it does not corode the water pipes and cause costly leaks in the water pipes. I used to work for a water department. > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, Grady Ferguson <davidsson70@> wrote: > > > > have you checked the water your putting in the tank. > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: nonstopmom888 <ehebens@> > > >To: AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com > > >Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 12:58 AM > > >Subject: [AquaticLife] Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable? > > > > > > > > >  > > >Hi, > > > > > >I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > > > > >My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > > > > >I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > > > > >Thanks for help, > > >Nora > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52805	From: Ray	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: Using Prime...Nitrite still detectable?

Hi Nora, It appears as though we need to tell all beginners in this hobby to buy an API (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, Inc.) master test kit as one of their first investments, right along with their tank, heater and fliter, etc. I was not aware that you were using test strips but just assumed you had liquid test kits. As Dawn has stated, test strips are notorious for being inaccurate(and you NEED accuracy in monitoring your water parameters). Part of test strips' inaccuracy may be due in part to their limited shelf life, but also how they are stored by the stores. While they be be fairly accurate when they're first new, they can't be relied on. Getting back to what Dawn recommended, try your best to locate an API master test kit. Other brands (such as Tetra) have been reported here to be difficult to read, especially the test for pH. API's test kits are much more easily read; hold a white piece of cardboard behind the test vial when determining the color obtained when using these kits. Ray --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi Dawn, > > thanks for the info regarding test kits! I was not too happy with the stripes because it was really hard to determine how much I was reading. I will look for the API kit... > > Thanks, > Nora > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "dawnshungryeyes4u2c" <dawnshungryeyes4u2c@> wrote: > > > > Nora, If I may add to the great info that Ray has offered you... if you are using test strips instead of liquid test kits you need to know that they are well known for giving inaccurate readings, which can be very dangerous to your fish... especially under the kinds of circumstances you are dealing with. I would urge you to purchase liquid test kits for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and pH rather than relying on the test strips. Any test kit that is inaccurate is a waste of money, as false readings are of no help to you or your fish. > > API makes a wonderful master kit that includes all of the needed tests and it is reasonably priced. If your local pet store doesn't carry it then it can easily be purchased online. If you need links to find it online please let us know, as many of us regularly purchase them this way. > > > > Dawn > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am cycling my 10 Gallon tank and started having Nitrite (around 1-3 ppm at the moment). Until now I did lots of partial water changes but in addition I started today to use the conditioner Prime to transform the Nitrites into a non-toxic form. > > > > > > My question is: If I test with stripes for ammonia and nitrite, do the Nitrites and Ammonia would still show as if I would not use Prime? Or does the changed form of the Nitrites would make them "invisible"? > > > > > > I am asking because after using Prime I still had some Nitrite (maybe 1-2 ppm) and I wondered if I did not use enough Prime or if the stripes have shown the nontoxic form instead? > > > > > > Thanks for help, > > > Nora > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52806	From: Ray	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Hi again Nora, As for testing your tap water for Ammonia and Nitrite, if it contains chloramine as added by your water company, you can expect it will test positive for ammonia -- it's just how much ammonia that's the question. Your Prime will take care of that though, and will also take care of any ammonia being produced as fish waste. Nitrite can also be found in tap water, so determining that would go a long way in deciding how to proceed with your water issues. I noticed on another Forum (Uniquarium) that you used double the normal dose of Prime with your first PWC, and the fish were fine, but when using 4 times the normal dose of Prime with your next (50%) PWC, your fish weren't acting exactly right. I don't know if there's any limit that's been deemed by the aquarium community as being safe, only that SeaChem has recommended their standard dose in their directions. As the fish were still fine at 2 X the normal dose, it would seem to still be safe at that dosage, so I wouldn't discontinue its use -- just cut back from 4 X the dosage. After determining your nitrite levels of both your tap water and of your tank water, your best method for it's removal may still be via PWC's if your tap water is determined to contain little or no nitrite. Off-gassing (allowing the excess CO2 to dissipate) will not affect your ammonia nor nitrite reading, but MAY see a difference in your pH test from the time the water is first drawn to the 24 hour period it's allowed to stand. Getting back to your question (on Uniquaria) of what the water conditioner/additive "Stabilize" is, it was apparently formulated as a liquid bio-media, used to promote your cycle; it is advertised as having live nitrifying bacteria. Please know that while the original formula seemed to work for some hobbyists, many others did not have as good results with it. Still, if it appeared to work, it might be worth a try anyway -- EXCEPT for the fact that the formula has been reported to have been changed. As a result, Many more hobbyists are reporting having negative results with it, and fewer are having positive results with it. There are several other similar products designed to act the same way, "Start Smart" (by TLC) being one of them, as also is "SuperBac" sold by Big Al's (on on-line aquarium retailer). Tetra also offers their "Safe Start," but as live nitrifying bacteria need a constant source of oxygen to survive -- unless specially formulated to decrease their metabolism (and none of these products thus far mentioned are), they become useless in short time -- if they ever were useful (?). There is only one such live nitrifying bacteria on the market that I know of that is actually viable and functional, and this one was formulated by Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec, as containing live aerobic autotrophic nitrobacteraceae, being named "Dr. Tim's One and Only." This product needs to be refrigerated to remain viable and even then it's shelf life is limited -- although vastly extended from the "Bio-Spira" product he previously developed when working for Marineland. "Bio-Spira's" formula has now been changed (by Marineland) and no longer needs to be refrigerated, by I need to question how well it still works compared to how extremely successful it first was as it's original formula product. If you want a product to jump-start your nitrogen cycle, get Dr. Hovanec's product (not easy to find as its refrigeration requirement limits the number of stores wanting to carry it). Most other so-called bacteria additives simply don't work as advertised, or their action is delayed by several weeks as they contain not aerobic autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, but instead facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria not needing oxygen and first needing to break down excess foods and fish waste by putrification before any nitrifying bacteria can even start these bacteria' by-products. So, don't waste your money on them. I'm replying to your Uniquaria questions on this List as when I reply on Uniquaria my posts can often be delayed be several days. This is not mrant as any reflection on the owner of that list as I know he's very busy, and has even so stated this to us on yet another List we both moderate. Ray -- Moderator --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@...> wrote: > > Hi Ray, > > thanks for all the info! It helps a lot to get more detailed information than just having to guess. > I was hoping with Prime I have found the miracle solution but it seems it is not that easy.... > > My ammonia readings were 0 or very low (with the stripes it is hard to say) the last two times so it seems my cycle works quite fast. Maybe the bacteria I added in the beginning were helping. > On the other hand: I had added one time a tablet against ammonia so I wonder if that affects the readings? I did two water changes in the meantime so I thought I would have measured something nevertheless if it was there... > > In any case I will continue the PWC's daily and add Prime and hope it will work out. > > Thanks again, > Nora > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > Nora, > > > > As Amber has told you, don't stop doing PWC's, and as Dawn has said, don't change too much at any one time. It's better to change 1.5 gallons every day than 3 gallons every other day. Still, depending on your ammonia and nitrite readings, you will have to change whatever amount of water it takes every day to keep these organic waste product levels from reaching levels that would be toxic to your fishes -- even though changing water will extend the cycling time -- and here I'm more concerned about your nitrite levels. This is yet another reason for not cycling a tank with fish in it, but it's too late to enter this part into the scenario since you already have them. > > > > I'm reminded here that you're just a little past 10 days into the cycle, at which time the ammonia generally spikes. You can expect your nitrite to climb higher than what it reads now if you don't make larger PWC's every day; keep monitoring it. A nitrite level of 5.0 ppm will be lethal to all your fishes, regardless of pH or temperature. > > > > In all I've read from you, I haven't seen you mention what you keep the temperature of the tank at. While this is a lessor factor than pH when considering how toxic any ammonia or nitrite might be, it still enters into the picture and can be a deciding factor on just how toxic these DOS's (Dissolved Organic Solids) ultimately become. Noticed your pH is 8.0 -- BUT, you need to make sure this is an accurate reading when giving this parameter to us, and not just something "close," as this is what we'll need in knowing how to advise you further. That your fishes seemingly aren't suffering, would indicate to me that your pH might be somewhat lower, but I have no way of knowing this. That you added, and are maintaining, salt since the very beginning has given your fishes a great benefit in them remaining relatively free from the toxic effects of ammonia, and can be slightly helpful with nitrite problems, although this compound (salt) will not fully address this latter problem. > > > > You should see the ammonia level start to go down of its own accord within a few days, as a part of the nitrifying bacteria converting this product becoming fully established in the cycle -- but you'll still need to do enough PWC's to keep the nitrite down. Getting back to the ammonia, while no amount of it is any good for your fishes (it impacts a stress on them), dropping the temperature of the water will go a long way in keeping this ammonia from becoming lethal at your pH 8.0, if not using Prime. Glad to see that you invested in this fine water conditioner. > > > > At pH 8.0, 1.0 ppm of ammonia is lethal to many different species of fishes at only 62 o, so you salt is obviously doing its job in preventing this from happening, as well too is the Prime helping with this issue. Note, that at pH 7.8, this same 1.00 ppm of ammonia doesn't become toxic until reaching 73 o, so it's very important to get as accurate a pH reading as you can determine. Still at the pH of 8.0 though, a much lower 0.5 ppm ammonia becomes lethal at 80 o (and toxic at 68 o). Also, at this same pH, a level of 0.25 ammonia does not become lethal, nor does it even become toxic, even at 80 o or more. The Prime will ensure that any Free Ammonia will not exist, but even ammonium, as relatively harmless as it is to fish, will exert some stress on them, which is why it's best to keep the ammonia (ammonium) reading down at all times during a tank cycling. To answer your question, it's much better on the fish to keep toxic levels down at all times, even though this means to stretch out the cycle. Maintaining really high levels of ammonia and nitrite, even for just a very short period, is extremely dangerous to fishes as there can reach a point when they become lethal if only at that level for an hour. Also, nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, so it's something you need to keep at a minimum, and drop the temperature somewhat during this period to help your fishes get through it. > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > > > > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > > > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > > > > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > > > > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > > > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > > > > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > Nora > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52807	From: nonstopmom888	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

Hi Ray and everybody, thanks again for all the information! I think my messages came a little out of order too (they moderated I think and that might mix up a response a little bit). In any case I am glad for all the responses! Having fish really includes a lot of science! I think I have to read everything twice to not miss some information. Just a brief update: I think fortunately my ammonia levels are almost or exactly 0 now (2-3 days now). The tank temperature fluctuates a little between 78 and 80. It seems if I switch off the light at night it goes down a little and then up with the light. Even though the heater should be temperature regulated. According to the stripes I think the ph was rather 7.8 than 8 but the exact value is really hard to tell with the color code of the stripes :( But the nitrite is still coming up every day since 2-3 days now but I start to see some color on the nitrate stripe too. I do not remember which bacteria brand I used in the beginning but I hope they shortened the cycle a little bit and I might be lucky that I only have to deal with the nitrite... It might have been the "good" brand you mentioned before (but not Dr. Tim's) I still do (since maybe 4 days) daily partial water changes (maybe 50%) to keep the nitrite levels down and add Prime now in the normal (or maybe double) dose...I will try to locate Dr. Tim's bacteria, thanks! According to your info the fish came really very close to a too high exposure of both toxins. I am lucky they are still there and seem mostly ok. But I notice that at least one was affected unfortunately by the temporary higher levels of ammonia or nitrite. One more than the others. He swims close to the surface, does not swim much around and I noticed the heavy gill movement days ago. That was when I had the brief peak in nitrite. He is better now and I hope the Prime prevents further problems. The other fish still seem ok, only stressed by the frequent water changes. Especially one started to hide when I come, I think he expects another intrusion in his tank...I am glad the salt might have prevented the worst! Thanks again, Nora --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@...> wrote: > > Hi again Nora, > > As for testing your tap water for Ammonia and Nitrite, if it contains chloramine as added by your water company, you can expect it will test positive for ammonia -- it's just how much ammonia that's the question. Your Prime will take care of that though, and will also take care of any ammonia being produced as fish waste. Nitrite can also be found in tap water, so determining that would go a long way in deciding how to proceed with your water issues. > > I noticed on another Forum (Uniquarium) that you used double the normal dose of Prime with your first PWC, and the fish were fine, but when using 4 times the normal dose of Prime with your next (50%) PWC, your fish weren't acting exactly right. I don't know if there's any limit that's been deemed by the aquarium community as being safe, only that SeaChem has recommended their standard dose in their directions. As the fish were still fine at 2 X the normal dose, it would seem to still be safe at that dosage, so I wouldn't discontinue its use -- just cut back from 4 X the dosage. After determining your nitrite levels of both your tap water and of your tank water, your best method for it's removal may still be via PWC's if your tap water is determined to contain little or no nitrite. > > Off-gassing (allowing the excess CO2 to dissipate) will not affect your ammonia nor nitrite reading, but MAY see a difference in your pH test from the time the water is first drawn to the 24 hour period it's allowed to stand. > > Getting back to your question (on Uniquaria) of what the water conditioner/additive "Stabilize" is, it was apparently formulated as a liquid bio-media, used to promote your cycle; it is advertised as having live nitrifying bacteria. Please know that while the original formula seemed to work for some hobbyists, many others did not have as good results with it. Still, if it appeared to work, it might be worth a try anyway -- EXCEPT for the fact that the formula has been reported to have been changed. As a result, Many more hobbyists are reporting having negative results with it, and fewer are having positive results with it. > > There are several other similar products designed to act the same way, "Start Smart" (by TLC) being one of them, as also is "SuperBac" sold by Big Al's (on on-line aquarium retailer). Tetra also offers their "Safe Start," but as live nitrifying bacteria need a constant source of oxygen to survive -- unless specially formulated to decrease their metabolism (and none of these products thus far mentioned are), they become useless in short time -- if they ever were useful (?). There is only one such live nitrifying bacteria on the market that I know of that is actually viable and functional, and this one was formulated by Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec, as containing live aerobic autotrophic nitrobacteraceae, being named "Dr. Tim's One and Only." This product needs to be refrigerated to remain viable and even then it's shelf life is limited -- although vastly extended from the "Bio-Spira" product he previously developed when working for Marineland. "Bio-Spira's" formula has now been changed (by Marineland) and no longer needs to be refrigerated, by I need to question how well it still works compared to how extremely successful it first was as it's original formula product. > > If you want a product to jump-start your nitrogen cycle, get Dr. Hovanec's product (not easy to find as its refrigeration requirement limits the number of stores wanting to carry it). Most other so-called bacteria additives simply don't work as advertised, or their action is delayed by several weeks as they contain not aerobic autotrophic nitrifying bacteria, but instead facultative anaerobic heterotrophic bacteria not needing oxygen and first needing to break down excess foods and fish waste by putrification before any nitrifying bacteria can even start these bacteria' by-products. So, don't waste your money on them. I'm replying to your Uniquaria questions on this List as when I reply on Uniquaria my posts can often be delayed be several days. This is not mrant as any reflection on the owner of that list as I know he's very busy, and has even so stated this to us on yet another List we both moderate. > > Ray -- Moderator > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > Hi Ray, > > > > thanks for all the info! It helps a lot to get more detailed information than just having to guess. > > I was hoping with Prime I have found the miracle solution but it seems it is not that easy.... > > > > My ammonia readings were 0 or very low (with the stripes it is hard to say) the last two times so it seems my cycle works quite fast. Maybe the bacteria I added in the beginning were helping. > > On the other hand: I had added one time a tablet against ammonia so I wonder if that affects the readings? I did two water changes in the meantime so I thought I would have measured something nevertheless if it was there... > > > > In any case I will continue the PWC's daily and add Prime and hope it will work out. > > > > Thanks again, > > Nora > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <sevenspringss@> wrote: > > > > > > Nora, > > > > > > As Amber has told you, don't stop doing PWC's, and as Dawn has said, don't change too much at any one time. It's better to change 1.5 gallons every day than 3 gallons every other day. Still, depending on your ammonia and nitrite readings, you will have to change whatever amount of water it takes every day to keep these organic waste product levels from reaching levels that would be toxic to your fishes -- even though changing water will extend the cycling time -- and here I'm more concerned about your nitrite levels. This is yet another reason for not cycling a tank with fish in it, but it's too late to enter this part into the scenario since you already have them. > > > > > > I'm reminded here that you're just a little past 10 days into the cycle, at which time the ammonia generally spikes. You can expect your nitrite to climb higher than what it reads now if you don't make larger PWC's every day; keep monitoring it. A nitrite level of 5.0 ppm will be lethal to all your fishes, regardless of pH or temperature. > > > > > > In all I've read from you, I haven't seen you mention what you keep the temperature of the tank at. While this is a lessor factor than pH when considering how toxic any ammonia or nitrite might be, it still enters into the picture and can be a deciding factor on just how toxic these DOS's (Dissolved Organic Solids) ultimately become. Noticed your pH is 8.0 -- BUT, you need to make sure this is an accurate reading when giving this parameter to us, and not just something "close," as this is what we'll need in knowing how to advise you further. That your fishes seemingly aren't suffering, would indicate to me that your pH might be somewhat lower, but I have no way of knowing this. That you added, and are maintaining, salt since the very beginning has given your fishes a great benefit in them remaining relatively free from the toxic effects of ammonia, and can be slightly helpful with nitrite problems, although this compound (salt) will not fully address this latter problem. > > > > > > You should see the ammonia level start to go down of its own accord within a few days, as a part of the nitrifying bacteria converting this product becoming fully established in the cycle -- but you'll still need to do enough PWC's to keep the nitrite down. Getting back to the ammonia, while no amount of it is any good for your fishes (it impacts a stress on them), dropping the temperature of the water will go a long way in keeping this ammonia from becoming lethal at your pH 8.0, if not using Prime. Glad to see that you invested in this fine water conditioner. > > > > > > At pH 8.0, 1.0 ppm of ammonia is lethal to many different species of fishes at only 62 o, so you salt is obviously doing its job in preventing this from happening, as well too is the Prime helping with this issue. Note, that at pH 7.8, this same 1.00 ppm of ammonia doesn't become toxic until reaching 73 o, so it's very important to get as accurate a pH reading as you can determine. Still at the pH of 8.0 though, a much lower 0.5 ppm ammonia becomes lethal at 80 o (and toxic at 68 o). Also, at this same pH, a level of 0.25 ammonia does not become lethal, nor does it even become toxic, even at 80 o or more. The Prime will ensure that any Free Ammonia will not exist, but even ammonium, as relatively harmless as it is to fish, will exert some stress on them, which is why it's best to keep the ammonia (ammonium) reading down at all times during a tank cycling. To answer your question, it's much better on the fish to keep toxic levels down at all times, even though this means to stretch out the cycle. Maintaining really high levels of ammonia and nitrite, even for just a very short period, is extremely dangerous to fishes as there can reach a point when they become lethal if only at that level for an hour. Also, nitrite is much more toxic than ammonia, so it's something you need to keep at a minimum, and drop the temperature somewhat during this period to help your fishes get through it. > > > > > > Ray > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In AquaticLife@yahoogroups.com, "nonstopmom888" <ehebens@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > I have 2 mollies, 1 platy and 3 white cloud in a 10 Gallon aquarium that I started new 10 days ago. > > > > > > > > I am doing partial water changes 3 times a week to keep the ammonia and nitrite levels low (and have 2 Tablespoon salt in the water). The ammonia levels are approx. 0.5 -1 ppm since days. In the fish shop today they tried to convince me that I should stop water changes and just let everything proceed until the aquarium had cycled itself. > > > > I wonder what is more dangerous: really high levels of ammonia for some days or low levels for a longer time? > > > > > > > > Is it right that the aquarium will be cycled in the end if I continue water changes? To me it seems more reasonable to keep toxic levels down even if it might take longer...In the internet are too many opinions but maybe someone has first hand experience with this way? > > > > > > > > How is your experience with additional chemicals like Amquel or Prime? > > > > Is it better to just change partial water or are those chemicals easier on the fish? > > > > > > > > The fish seem happy but how do I notice if levels are too high and affecting them? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Nora > > > > > > > > > >

Group: AquaticLife	Message: 52808	From: Amber Berglund	Date: 12/31/2011
Subject: Re: ammonia levels, cycling aquarium

I just wanted to add one thing. When you add salt to the tank, don't just pour the salt into the tank, put it in some tank water in a cup and stir it until it disolves, then add the salt-water mix to the tank. Fish will try to eat the salt granules if you add them directly to the tank. If they succeed in eating any, the salt can harm them, or possibly kill them if they eat too much of the salt. Amber On 12/31/2011 5:50 PM, nonstopmom888 wrote: > > Hi Ray and everybody, > > thanks again for all the information! > I think my messages came a little out of order too (they moderated I > think and that might mix up a response a little bit). In any case I am > glad for all the responses! > > Having fish really includes a lot of science! > I think I have to read everything twice to not miss some information. > > Just a brief update: I think fortunately my ammonia levels are almost > or exactly 0 now (2-3 days now). The tank temperature fluctuates a > little between 78 and 80. It seems if I switch off the light at night > it goes down a little and then up with the light. Even though the > heater should be temperature regulated. According to the stripes I > think the ph was rather 7.8 than 8 but the exact value is really hard > to tell with the color code of the stripes :( > But the nitrite is still coming up every day since 2-3 days now but I > start to see some color on the nitrate stripe too. I do not remember > which bacteria brand I used in the beginning but I hope they shortened > the cycle a little bit and I might be lucky that I only have to deal > with the nitrite... It might have been the "good" brand you mentioned > before (but not Dr. Tim's) > I still do (since maybe 4 days) daily partial water changes (maybe > 50%) to keep the nitrite levels down and add Prime now in the normal > (or maybe double) dose...I will try to locate Dr. Tim's bacteria, thanks! > > According to your info the fish came really very close to a too high > exposure of both toxins. I am lucky they are still there and seem > mostly ok. > But I notice that at least one was affected unfortunately by the > temporary higher levels of ammonia or nitrite. One more than the > others. He swims close to the surface, does not swim much around and I > noticed the heavy gill movement days ago. That was when I had the > brief peak in nitrite. He is better now and I hope the Prime prevents > further problems. The other fish still seem ok, only stressed by the > frequent water changes. Especially one started to hide when I come, I > think he expects another intrusion in his tank...I am glad the salt > might have prevented the worst! > > Thanks again, > Nora > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]